Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13449

 1                          Wednesday, 3 July 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Good afternoon, Witness.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Are you ready to start?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13            JUDGE LIU:  We won't keep you long this afternoon.  Mr. Krsnik,

14    your re-examination, please.

15                          WITNESS:   WITNESS NT [Resumed]

16                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                          Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

18            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Thank

19    you, I'll be very brief.  Could the witness be shown Exhibit 743.1 and

20    734?

21       Q.   Witness, would you please be kind enough to examine document

22    743.1?  It is the alleged report on the handover of detainees.  Would you

23    first be kind to check the left, upper angle, where the reference number

24    should be written?  Does the number feature there?

25       A.   No.

Page 13450

 1       Q.   At the bottom, it says, "Official."  What does it say underneath

 2    that?

 3       A.   There are the initials PM.

 4       Q.   That's M, isn't that so?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Is there a seal?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   The last question concerning this document, could you tell us

 9    where you were located on the 29th of January, 1994?  Where were you?

10       A.   I was in the 2nd Guard's Brigade.

11       Q.   Did you have any function to perform there?

12       A.   Yes.

13            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Perhaps we should go into private

14    session for these questions, Your Honours.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

16                          [Private session]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 13451

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5                          [Open session]

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the restructuring and

 7    reorganisation took place somewhere before the start of November, 1993.

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Very well.  Could you tell us when formally you ceased to exist?

13    That is the ATG Krusko -- Krusko unit?

14       A.   We ceased to exist formally in December, 1993.

15       Q.   Could you now please look at the second document?  The upper left

16    corner, what is the date on this document?

17       A.   29th December, 1993.

18       Q.   Where were you at that time?

19       A.   In the 2nd Guards Brigade.

20       Q.   The name under item 6, could you tell us when, possibly the year

21    and the month, this person was killed?

22       A.   I cannot recall the exact date.  It was December, 1993.

23       Q.   Very well.  Would you also -- my last question -- tell us whether,

24    in the lower right angle where it says "commander," you can see whose

25    signature is under this heading "commander" and whether there is a seal as

Page 13452

 1    well on this document?

 2       A.   I do not know whose signature this is, and there is no seal.

 3            MR. KRSNIK:  No further questions, Your Honour, thank you very

 4    much.

 5       Q.   Witness, I have no further questions for you.  Thank you for

 6    coming here.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, any questions from the Judges?  Judge Clark?

 8                          Questioned by the Court:

 9            JUDGE CLARK:  Sorry, I won't keep you long but I have a few

10    questions for you.  You were telling us yesterday that Juka Prazina left

11    in June of 1993.  He went to the sea, I think you said.  Did he just go on

12    a holiday or did he quit being commander of the unit that you were in?

13       A.   I personally believe that he went on a holiday.  He would come

14    back and he would call me and he would tell me before leaving to take his

15    place.  However, he never came back, he never called me again, and I told

16    him that, later on, that we were waiting for him, but he didn't come

17    back.

18            JUDGE CLARK:  When you say you told him you were waiting for him,

19    did you actually speak to him?

20       A.   Yes.  I spoke with him.  He told me that, since his wife was

21    severely injured in Sarajevo, she was accommodated somewhere on the

22    seaside and he told me that he would go to the sea for that purpose and

23    that he would come back, but he never came back.

24            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you.  Now, if I move on to a different issue,

25    on the day -- on the days of the 9th and 10th of May, when the major

Page 13453

 1    conflict occurred in Mostar and the Vranica building was the focus of

 2    fighting, you gave testimony to the effect that because your women and

 3    children were at risk, a number of you stayed behind to guard them in the

 4    Heliodrom.

 5       A.   This is not what I said yesterday.

 6            JUDGE CLARK:  Well, forgive me, I thought on two occasions that

 7    was what your testimony was.  Can you correct me, if I'm wrong?

 8       A.   With your permission, I'd like to repeat what I said yesterday.

 9    Perhaps you didn't understand me well, so with your permission, Your

10    Honour, I'd like to repeat what I said yesterday.

11            JUDGE CLARK:  Certainly.

12       A.   Before May 9 and 10, a few days earlier, I was wounded, I went to

13    the hospital, and then I was dismissed.  I had a wound, gun wound, gunshot

14    wound, in my left heel.  In that morning, on the 9th of May, when Juka,

15    the commander, at about 9.00 or 10.00 a.m. Left, he told me that the Army

16    of Bosnia-Herzegovina had launched an attack, that he had to leave and

17    be -- become -- and join the reserve unit Ludvig Pavlovic.  I stayed in

18    the Heliodrom myself because I had been wounded, and I couldn't join him.

19    And together with me, there were some ten other men who were in the

20    Heliodrom, and there were also women and children there.  My wife was also

21    there. She was pregnant at that time.  And having undergone the events in

22    the Igman together with my wife, had the BH Army not arrived there, and

23    having had this experience from Mount Igman, I decided to stay in the

24    Heliodrom. Furthermore I was also wounded and I couldn't leave.  This is

25    what I said yesterday.

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Page 13455

 1            JUDGE CLARK:  Well, we won't argue about that.  But that is

 2    essentially what I understood you to have said, and I thought I said.  But

 3    however, can I take it from that that you had two reasons for staying

 4    behind?  One, your injury, and secondly the protection of your loved ones?

 5    The question that I want to follow from that was can we take it that the

 6    commander of your unit left with a number of combatants?  In other words,

 7    most of the unit left the Heliodrom with him, to go on duty, to assist, as

 8    you said, the Ludvig Pavlovic unit?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you.  Now, that clarifies that for me.  I want

11    to go to it a different subject now.  Were you, as a soldier in the unit,

12    paid each week or each month?

13       A.   Yes.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you know who paid you and where you were paid?

15    In other words, did you have to go somewhere to collect your weekly or

16    monthly pay?

17       A.   Yes.  One of us always, when there was the monthly pay, had to go

18    and collect them from the Grude logistical centre.  This is where the

19    monthly pays were disbursed.

20            JUDGE CLARK:  One of you would go to Grude.  Were you paid with an

21    envelope with a cash with a pay slip?  Did you have to sign any

22    documents?  Did that person bring a list which all of you had could

23    countersign?  Was there any documentary procedure for obtaining your

24    salary?

25       A.   Yes.  For a certain period of time, we were paid in cash and we

Page 13456

 1    had to countersign a document.  And later on, we received pay slips and

 2    everybody personally had to go to a bank or somewhere to collect the pay.

 3            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you know by whom you were paid, apart from the

 4    fact that one of your colleagues went to Grude to collect the money and

 5    then -- but do you know which institution paid you?

 6       A.   The institution that paid us was the Main Staff.  We were

 7    subordinate to the Main Staff, and the Ministry of Defence was the

 8    institution of the HVO.

 9            JUDGE CLARK:  Now, if I bring you to the period when you were the

10    commander of the unit, when your commander had unfortunately been killed,

11    did you have a procedure or protocol that you followed when one of your

12    men was either injured or had been killed?

13       A.   Your Honour, I did not understand this question.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  It's really a follow through on payments.  What

15    procedure, if any, did you follow to ensure that somebody who had been

16    killed was not receiving a salary?  What was the protocol when somebody

17    was killed or injured?  First of all, tell me what you did and then I will

18    have some follow-up questions in relation to your answer.

19       A.   Now, if you're referring to 1994, when we were receiving the pay

20    in the guards brigade, when a soldier would be killed --

21            JUDGE CLARK:  Sorry, I'm referring to the unit that you belonged

22    to with Juka Prazina after he left, that small unit.

23       A.   Initially, we were not paid.

24            JUDGE CLARK:  Do you want to change your evidence on that?  When I

25    asked you how were you paid, you described how one of the staff would go

Page 13457

 1    to Grude and collect the money.  Later on it became more streamlined and

 2    you got a pay slip and you went to the bank.  Do you want to change that

 3    evidence?

 4       A.   No, no.  I insist on my testimony.  When we arrived there with

 5    Juka, and then when he had left, then somebody would go and collect our

 6    pay, would bring the pay and everybody would have to countersign a pay

 7    slip.

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  Really what I want to know is now in the short

 9    period -- sorry, did I interrupt you?

10       A.   Yes.  What as far as the killed combatants are concerned, their

11    families would receive their pay.  And even today, I have very good

12    relations with these families, because I live in Sarajevo and my family is

13    in Sarajevo.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  So if somebody -- if somebody were killed in action,

15    the same pay would be paid to his family?  Is that what you're saying?

16       A.   Yes, yes.  Your Honours, if I may say, if such a person had a wife

17    and a child, at that time, there was no welfare or any other care for

18    these children to be taken care of, and this is how we did it.  Just by

19    way of example.

20            JUDGE CLARK:  Would the payment list of a unit, then, include the

21    names of the soldiers who had died or would the dead soldiers' name be

22    replaced by his widow or next-of-kin's name?

23       A.   Well, I was a very young commander at that time, and it was very

24    difficult for me to take care of these families.  Initially it was the

25    killed soldier's name on the list, as far as I can recall it, and then

Page 13458

 1    either a member of his family or next of kin signed or sometimes I signed.

 2    As this has been going on over the last few years.  If there was a

 3    disabled person, I would go and collect their pay in Sarajevo and take the

 4    pay to such a disabled person.  This is my duty.  This is a part of my

 5    honour that I feel to my former soldiers, and I try to help them,

 6    themselves, personally or their children, old and sick mothers,

 7    et cetera.  This is my duty and my responsibility even today.

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  That's very laudable and I congratulate you on

 9    carrying out your duty.  The point I'm making is that because payment

10    would be made to the next of kin of a soldier who was killed, that would

11    explain the appearance of mothers and wives names on soldiers pay lists,

12    wouldn't it?

13       A.   Yes.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you very much indeed.  It explains a lot.  I

15    have no further questions.

16            JUDGE LIU:  Any questions out of Judge's questions?  Yes,

17    Mr. Bos?

18            MR. BOS:  Just two questions, Your Honour.

19                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Bos:

20       Q.   Witness, one thing to clarify about Juka Prazina.  Was Juka

21    Prazina, according to what you know, killed during the war or after the

22    war?

23       A.   Yesterday, I said that I read it in the newspapers because over

24    the last year or two, I've been working and living in Sarajevo, and I

25    receive information through the newspapers after the war, that he was

Page 13459

 1    killed after the war.

 2       Q.   Sorry, it was reported in the newspapers and this was reported

 3    after the war.  Do you remember the year?

 4       A.   No, I do not remember the year.

 5       Q.   And isn't it true that he was killed in Belgium?  Do you recall

 6    that from the media report?

 7       A.   No.  I don't recall that.  I have been in contact with the wife,

 8    and as far as -- and his daughter, whenever I can, of course I try to take

 9    care of them, be in contact with them.  She told me, however, that he was

10    buried in Belgium.

11       Q.   One other question:  When you said that you received pay slips and

12    that you had to collect the money of your wages from a bank, which bank

13    would you collect that money from?  Do you remember the name of the bank?

14       A.   I can recall that it was the Mostarska Bank, Mostarska Banka Bank.

15       Q.   Just one other question on Juka, and that will be my last

16    question.  Was Juka killed or was Juka murdered?

17       A.   Rumours have it, and newspapers wrote it, that he was killed.

18       Q.   And how was he killed?

19       A.   I do not know that.

20            MR. BOS:  No further questions.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

22                          Further examination by Mr. Krsnik:

23       Q.   [Interpretation] Only one question with regard to Judge Clark's

24    questions.  You were talking exclusively about your unit?

25       A.   Yes.

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Page 13461

 1       Q.   Your killed combatants, could they further be kept on the

 2    soldier's pay list or did they have to be put on another list?  Welfare

 3    list?

 4       A.   We received a list, and it was the same list for ATG Krusko, for

 5    both the -- those soldiers who were still alive and those who had been

 6    killed.

 7       Q.   So you had one list but the names were separated?

 8       A.   Yes, because sometimes one of their relatives or I myself would

 9    sign and send them the money.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

11    questions.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Well, thank you very much, Witness, for coming to The

13    Hague to help us.  When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you

14    out of the room.  All of us wish you a pleasant journey back home.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16                          [The witness withdrew]

17            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Meek?

18            MR. MEEK:  Mr. President, Your Honours, we would just ask that the

19    Exhibit P249 be admitted.  It would have a Defence number of D1/411.

20    Would that be right, Mrs. Registrar?  Would that be the next number?

21            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, that is correct.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I want to know whether this document has been

23    admitted before or not, because it's the Prosecutor's document.  Yes,

24    Mr. Bos?  Would you please enlighten us on that?

25            MR. BOS:  Yes, Your Honour.  To my knowledge, this is a

Page 13462

 1    Prosecution exhibit which has already been admitted so I don't see the

 2    need to have it admitted again but if the Defence also wants to have it a

 3    Defence Exhibit number we have no objection.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we could have a different number to indicate

 5    it's also the document used by Defence counsel.

 6            MR. MEEK:  Yes, Your Honour.  I thought that was the proper

 7    procedure.  D1/411, I think would be the next number.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 9            MR. MEEK:  Thank you.

10            JUDGE LIU:  On the side of the Prosecution, Mr. Bos?

11            MR. BOS:  Yes, Your Honour.  We have two new exhibits to tender,

12    Exhibit P623.1, which is Tuta's communication to Mr. Stampar dated 5

13    October, 1993.  And Exhibit P706.1, which is the report on the incident in

14    the Mostar hospital.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Any objections?  Mr. Meek?

16            MR. MEEK:  Yes, Your Honours.  These are new documents.  As far as

17    706.1 goes, I believe that the witness absolutely denied that incident

18    happened or occurred whatsoever.  So there would be no foundation for

19    that.  There is no probative value whatsoever.  623.1, also a new

20    document.  The witness testified he had never seen this paper before,

21    didn't know about it.  He said his name was on it but he didn't know about

22    it, had never seen it, so there is no foundation, no probative value, nor

23    is it relevant.  So we object.

24                          [Trial Chamber confers]

25            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I think this Chamber will have to read this

Page 13463

 1    document and make our decision at a later stage.

 2            Mr. Krsnik, are you ready for your next witness?  I know you're

 3    always ready for that.

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Now I can see some light at the end

 5    of the tunnel, which makes me a bit better, and of course, I am ready.

 6    Now we are going to be dealing with experts, with scientists.  So maybe we

 7    will learn something from them.  I certainly believe it is going to be

 8    very interesting.  My first witness is a witness for whom I don't need any

 9    protection measures.  His name is Dr. Ante Markotic, a scientist.  He is

10    one of the most prominent demographers, a person who engages in

11    demographic science, among the most prominent world experts in the field.

12    We are ready.  We are going to have some problems.  I found it very

13    difficult to understand him and that's why I asked him to be -- to use

14    simple terms so that even lay persons can understand him.  This is a very

15    specific subject, very specific topic, and very specific science but I do

16    believe it is going to prove very efficient and very relevant for this

17    trial.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, thank you very much for your

19    information.  I think the last time you dealt with that witness pretty

20    well.  There is no need to ask a lot of questions to the expert witness

21    because we already have their statements at our hands.  I think what you

22    have to do is to establish that witness, the qualification of this

23    witness, and later on, draw our attention to certain points in his

24    statement.  I believe you quite understand that procedure.

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your Honours.  I have only

Page 13464

 1    five questions for this expert, just to start the discussion, and then I

 2    will hand him over to the Prosecution, but we have maps here that only he

 3    can explain.  I have six maps here ready for the expert to explain, and

 4    then I have four questions to lay some foundation and then I'll be ready

 5    to hand the witness over to my learned friend.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

 7            Could we have the witness, please?

 8                          [The witness entered court]

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Good afternoon, Witness.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Would you please make the solemn declaration in

12    accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                          WITNESS:  ANTE MARKOTIC

16                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

17            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  You may sit down, please.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik, your direct examination, please.

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                          Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

22       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

23       A.   Good afternoon.

24       Q.   We can keep the ELMO because we will need it for the maps.  Are

25    you feeling comfortable?

Page 13465

 1       A.   I could hardly recognise myself in the lobby.

 2       Q.   Witness, just one piece of advice.  We -- all you say is being

 3    translated into two languages.  You do not speak fast any way but I'm

 4    going to kindly ask you to pause before you start giving your answers.  We

 5    will start by you giving us your first and last name and then just briefly

 6    your curriculum vitae?

 7       A.   Can I start?  Thank you very much.  Ante F. Markotic born in

 8    village Grab, municipality of Ljubuski in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I finished

 9    education in Grab, Ljubuski, Capljina, Sarajevo, Zagreb, and in some other

10    countries.  I would like to point out my additional education in the

11    Soviet Union, when I was -- had been given the grant of the United

12    Nations.  The subject was population and development.  And at several

13    European universities in Mannheim, Bratislava.  Then I had

14    inter-university cooperation with Granville University College in the

15    United States of America, and on four or five occasions, I stayed and

16    worked in Canada.  I graduated from the university in Sarajevo.  I

17    defended my master's thesis and my Ph.D. in Zagreb and then I was in the

18    Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia the United States and Canada.  My field of

19    expertise is demography and development that is population and regional

20    development.  What else can I say?  Let me mention the functions that I

21    had.  One of them was at the school of economics of the University of

22    Sarajevo.  I was the deputy dean in 1980.  Later on, I was the deputy

23    mayor of the city of Sarajevo.  That was in 1988.  Later on, I was an

24    expert at the London conference on the former Yugoslavia.  Then I

25    participated in the preparation of the Vance Owen plan for

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Page 13467

 1    Bosnia-Herzegovina and I also participated in the Vienna talks on

 2    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Obviously my area of expertise is mostly, its

 3    population and regional development.  Within that context at the end of my

 4    introduction, I would like to say that I have authored several books.

 5    Several proceedings, and some 130 scientific and expert papers in the

 6    field of demography and regional sciences.  Thank you very much.  If I

 7    have forgotten something, please remind me.  Bear in mind I was born in

 8    the first half of the 20th century.

 9       Q.   I believe that you know your curriculum vitae best of all of us.

10    In the beginning I would like to ask the usher to put this book on the

11    ELMO, and my question is going to be very simple.  Your expert's opinion

12    has mostly been published in this book.  Do I have your permission to

13    translate it into English and give it to this Chamber as another piece

14    of evidence?

15       A.   Yes.  This is my last book.  I hope there will be more to follow.

16    And it is a collection of my papers covering the period from the 1990s to

17    the day of its publication.  It consists of several very serious

18    scientific contributions based on scientific procedure, and those who are

19    the product of my previous knowledge and my dealing and looking at my

20    homeland, Bosnia and Herzegovina, during the war, and those things that I

21    participated in personally in order to find a solution to this tragic

22    country.  I would very much like to see this book read by others, and I

23    would like to hear other people's opinion on it, but my work is the result

24    of my engagement in this very broad aspect of work, but I'm not sure that

25    this is the best summary of all that knowledge.  I believe that there are

Page 13468

 1    people who could do it better.  I'm talking about the summary of the

 2    book.  So if any of you would be willing to do that, to the benefit of

 3    all, I would be much obliged.

 4       Q.   So this has entered the transcript.  I have your permission to

 5    have it translated and I will tender that book as another exhibit.

 6            Let's move on.  Mr. Professor, I have prepared five questions for

 7    you because everything else is in your expert findings.  But in order to

 8    start, I would like to ask you the following:  We are not experts for this

 9    topic but I would like to sort of speak in layman terms and I hope you

10    will be able to help us understand your area of expertise.  As far as I

11    understand, you are the person who understands maps.  Maps speak a lot

12    more than words.  But sometimes our laypersons do not understand maps.

13    Let me give you Exhibit D1/402 to 1/405 -- 9, sorry, so let's start with

14    your explanations.  D1/402 to D1/409.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we have some problems with the numbers.  I think

16    I only have the D1/403.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] From 403 to 410, I'm sorry.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

19            MR. KRSNIK:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20       Q.   I believe they are in chronological order but can you please check

21    that for me?  So let's deal with the maps in a chronological order?

22       A.   Help me.  How do you want me to proceed?

23       Q.   You are the author of all these maps and you know them best.  In

24    front of you is one map.  I'm not?

25       A.   I'm not an expert on maps.  I use them.  In front of you, you have

Page 13469

 1    a map of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2       Q.   I apologise, Mr. Professor.  Can I interrupt you, please?  I

 3    believe that you are speaking too fast.  Can you please slow down?  We

 4    have English interpretation and French interpretation.

 5       A.   At the bottom of this map, there is a date and I worked in the --

 6    at the school of economics when the occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 7    started, and I was deliberating on everything that had befallen us at the

 8    time.  The longer I stayed there, the longer we were shelled, I published

 9    more and more contributions in the Sarajevo dailies.  One of the maps in

10    front of you is my attempt to mock all those who were in a position to do

11    something and they didn't do anything.  And the title of this map is,

12    "Bosnia-Herzegovina, 1992."  The subtitle is, "Where is the Bosnian ship

13    sailing?"  And I mean Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And underneath, it says,

14    "The representative of the international community.  Upside-down Europe

15    1992, Cutilheiro without a compass."  What was I implying?  I was

16    saying that some people arrived in this complex country, that they found

17    it struck by tragic events, without having known anything about it, and if

18    I had started complaining sooner, I would have sooner come to those who

19    could have helped us.  Now you see the black areas.  This looks like the

20    current federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is one of the Dayton, that

21    is in the constitution of this land.  The uncoloured areas are the ones

22    with the predominant Serbian population.  The darker colour, the stronger

23    the attacks.  You can see here Foca, Srebrenica, Konjic, Ravno, Kupres and

24    municipalities in the Bosnian Posavina.  That is Orasje.

25       Q.   Can you please slow down?

Page 13470

 1       A.   I apologise.  So there are no names of municipalities but the

 2    darker the colour, the bigger the tragedy.  An additional part of this

 3    map, which I can't see on my screen too well is my attempt to play with

 4    the names of municipalities.  There is some there is the Cyrillic script,

 5    there is Latinic script.  There are combinations of the two, and all that

 6    is within the context of the events that were already taking place in the

 7    neighbouring Republic of Croatia.  Whatever is happening in Croatia, I

 8    call it the nursery of the tragedy or the kindergarten of the tragedy that

 9    will later on move to the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Obviously I had to

10    say that what it says here, but is not complete, where is the delivery

11    room of that tragedy?  I'm not hiding it from you today.  I didn't hide it

12    from the public at that time.  I put the delivery room of the tragedy in

13    Serbia.  That's what I thought at the time.

14       Q.   Sir, can you please slow down?  I had to kindly ask to you slow

15    down.  We have all the time in the world but you have to slow down.

16       A.   Okay.

17       Q.   You are speaking so fast that the interpreters are finding very

18    difficult to interpret you and then your message will be lost.  For the

19    transcript, and our interpreters -- you are making the lives of the

20    interpreters very hard.

21       A.   I'll try to slow down.  Even then, I thought today I'm convinced

22    that my predictions were very accurate.  So the delivery room of the

23    tragedy was in the east, in Serbia.  The tragedy was tested, the testing

24    ground was Croatia.  That was in 1992.  And the trauma struck in the

25    today's republic, Republika Srpska.  At the time it was still the

Page 13471

 1    so-called Republika Srpska.  The death was in the black municipalities.

 2    The dust was in Foca.  Today it is a part of Serbia.  The map depicts

 3    another interesting area called -- or the title called, "1991 in the part

 4    of the then municipality of Trebinje," which was -- which used to be Ravno

 5    municipality, and when the war started, the population was mostly Croat

 6    population.  Then that municipality became part of the Croatian Community

 7    of Herceg-Bosna.  You can see the year here, 1991.  Even to this very day,

 8    we cannot agree in my homeland where the war started and how the war

 9    started in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So much for the time being.

10       Q.   Let's move on to the second map which bears number 404.

11       A.   Here there is another map of mine.  This was published officially

12    in Oslobodjenja which was published in Sarajevo, this was published on the

13    7th of June, 1992.  The text next to the map is not mine.  I'm not the

14    author of the text.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott?

16            MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, just to assist, I ask for clarification

17    myself and perhaps it would assist the Chamber this appears to be what's

18    on the overhead marked as Exhibit 410, not 404.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise.  My mistake.  Thank you,

21    Mr. Prosecutor for your help.  So we are indeed looking at the Exhibit

22    number 410.

23       Q.   Can you please continue?

24       A.   Unlike the previous map, this map is official because it was

25    published in the daily paper.  This can be checked.  This was my personal

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Page 13473

 1    reaction to the developments, but there is no big difference between this

 2    map and the previous map.  But in this map, those who published it, to

 3    illustrate the text, recognised in this map the reality of that moment.

 4    The black colour here shows municipalities with the predominant Serbian

 5    municipalities or better say municipalities where the Serbian population

 6    prevailed.  Again, the darker the colour, the more Serbian population in

 7    the municipality.  However, look at the brighter areas, the lighter areas,

 8    which represent those municipalities where the Muslim and Croat population

 9    prevailed.  I used to call them Muslim and I still call them Muslim

10    population.  I am using the term that was -- that are the basis for my

11    analysis in -- based on the official statistics today, census is going to

12    show something else.  This is not a deliberate error.  This is just an

13    attempt to provide an official interpretation for the name of the

14    constituent people who in the meantime have changed their name and today

15    call themselves Bosniaks.  However, the same message of the author of the

16    text and my message is as follows:  The white municipalities, so to say,

17    are more or less attacked municipalities.  Then and today, I am saying

18    that, after ten years, we can recognise the intention of the aggression on

19    Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The question can be asked at this point:  Why

20    were the municipalities with the predominant Croatian and Muslim

21    population were attacked?  I don't want to give you any answers.  This is

22    the map that illustrates the facts of the time.  I don't want to impose my

23    conclusions on you.  I will leave it to you to conclude for yourselves.

24    However, there is no coincidence that at the time in the early 1990s, in

25    1991, 1992, the war was waged in the areas which did not have a

Page 13474

 1    predominant Serbian population, whereas the areas where the predominant

 2    Serbian population areas were war-free.  And this is where I would like to

 3    stop commenting on this map.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Witness, we understand that you are eager to

 5    give your evidence, but I have to tell you that you speak really too fast,

 6    which gives a difficult time to the interpretation.  Please be sure to

 7    make a pause after each sentence.  You have to understand --

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll do that.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  You have to understand that whatever you say will be

10    translated into the other two languages.  Thank you very much.

11            Mr. Krsnik?

12            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13       Q.   Professor, the title of your expert work is as follows:  "Bosnia

14    and Herzegovina, the state between ethnic cleansing in peace and ethnic

15    cleansing in war."  Please, can you explain this heading, this title, to

16    the Chamber?  And please, can you look at the maps 405, 406, 407, 408 and

17    409?

18       A.   What I have said so far explains and draws your conclusion to the

19    fact that my state is a very complex social entity.  The complexity of it

20    I tried to depict in the title of my expert work, and the title of my

21    expert work, of my expertise, I hope, is clear to everybody.  The message

22    of that title is as follows:  We have to know something about Bosnia and

23    Herzegovina from previous times, when we are proposing arguments in very

24    simple terms.  One has to ask oneself:  Why does Bosnia and Herzegovina

25    look as it looks today?  As for the constitution and the appearance of my

Page 13475

 1    country, I can say that I recognise the elements of its territorial

 2    complexity, which I would say has been present from its beginnings, and it

 3    has always been a bone in the throat of its development.  Why do I say

 4    that?

 5            This was true during the period of Austro-Hungarian empire, during

 6    Yugoslavia, of both Yugoslavia, and it is still true today.  When we are

 7    trying together with the international community to decipher, to find out

 8    a good, just solution for this country, for this country to be independent

 9    and to be able to develop independently, on its own.  In my attempt to

10    answer to my own question, as a human being, as a scientist, and the

11    question that I'm trying to answer is as follows:  Why does my country, in

12    which all those who I remember were born, all those that my predecessors

13    remember, how come that this country has not seen anything but tragedies

14    over the past 100 years?  And these tragedies cannot be compared to

15    anything that the European civilisation has seen, after the first and

16    Second World Wars.  Unlike the rest of Europe, my homeland has seen the

17    third world war in the 1990s.

18            The appearance, the shape of my homeland, to me as a scientist who

19    deals with people or in more sophisticated terms, who deals with the

20    science on population, so this shape, this appearance, warns both you and

21    me that this shape hides a lot of answers to my question.

22            I would like to draw your attention to the indications in the

23    previous two maps, where, to my mind, in this part, lies part of the

24    question and part of the answer to this key human civilisational and, if

25    you will, European question.  Unfortunately, the question has not been

Page 13476

 1    limited to European border lines but by the force of its tragedy it has

 2    become a broader international issue.

 3            Finally, there are very few ethnical, cultural and areas or states

 4    as complex as Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It is surprising that what happened

 5    happened in Europe.

 6       Q.   Professor, I apologise for the interruption.  I believe that we

 7    have to narrow down your testimony.  That's why I have given you these

 8    maps.  Can you please sort them out in the chronological order and can you

 9    please use them in order to introduce the topic to the Honourable

10    Chamber?

11       A.   Okay.  In front of you is a very colourful map.  This is Bosnia

12    and Herzegovina in 1991.  I am the author of the wall map and the name of

13    this map is, "The ethnical map of Bosnia-Herzegovina."  The part of the

14    complexity of Bosnia-Herzegovina arises from its national composition.

15    When I was researching this segment of the society in Bosnia and

16    Herzegovina, under the conditions that -- in which this country developed,

17    and one cannot ignore the ethnic facts, both in demographical terms, as

18    well as in economic terms.  But one also has to mention the ethnical,

19    religious, social and other aspects of this country.  One can also not

20    ignore the tragical consequences of the First and Second World Wars, and

21    especially one cannot ignore the fact that this state, as a part of

22    Yugoslavia, in the -- in mid-20th century had one half of its population

23    was illiterate.  That is why all the terms that I have mentioning have to

24    be put in that context, and deliberated on in that context.

25            Before the war, the society did not bear that in mind.  So when

Page 13477

 1    looking at the map today, I can say that rare are those people, even in

 2    scientific circles who could give you the exact national or ethnic

 3    structure of this state.  Why is that so?

 4            There are several reasons for that. My profession is one of those

 5    who can provide you with some answers based on scientific data.  This is

 6    very little, because a number of statistical data, and especially for the

 7    local and broader areas --

 8       Q.   I apologise, professor, I again have to interrupt you.  You have

 9    to slow down.  I know that you will find it very hard to concentrate on

10    what you want to say and say that slowly.  You're not used to that.

11    However, without that, we won't be able to proceed.

12       A.   So when we are talking about the terms that you have already

13    heard, one has to bear in mind that this is a complex state with a very

14    low level of literacy, very low level of education, general culture, and

15    that the country that was economically underdeveloped.  That is why the

16    demographic variances amongst the state-forming peoples are a particular

17    sticking point in their relations.

18            To my mind, when I was looking at the demographic side of the

19    complexity of this country, the causes of the war and the relations have

20    to be sought within this context.

21       Q.   Professor, again, I apologise for the interruption.  I don't mean

22    to be rude.  We are approaching our first break.  Can you please be more

23    specific?  Can you start explaining the colours in the map?

24       A.   The colours do not make sense if you do not understand the

25    context.  I am not a cartographer.  I do not draw maps.  That's why I

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Page 13479

 1    absolutely agree that every map -- this is just one more general remark

 2    and then I will concentrate on the maps.  Every map depicting this area,

 3    this complex area, simplifies matter for everybody.

 4            The ethnical map, whose -- who -- that I have authored is the only

 5    one dating back from the Austro-Hungarian times.  That is the only

 6    ethnical map that covers the area between 1910 and 1990.  And that in the

 7    country which is so complex.  That is why I would like to say that my

 8    fellow citizens, regardless of their ethnical origin, that they were very

 9    much ethnically illiterate.  The ethnical map of this country can be

10    metaphorically explained by saying that it gives just the basic data for

11    those who are not experts in the area.  This is just like an identity

12    card which gives the country the name, the first and the last name, and

13    the date of birth, but if you want to know more about the country, you

14    have to have more background information.

15            Why am I speaking in such tiny detail?  I'm speaking in this tiny

16    detail because such maps can be manipulated.  And when you manipulate the

17    larger masses, which do not understand anything, then it suffices for you

18    to show them one colour.  Just to illustrate this, you may not be able to

19    find it, Kalinovik is a municipality south of Sarajevo.  It is much bigger

20    in size than any of the municipalities within the city of Sarajevo.

21    However municipalities of Sarajevo proper are much more densely populated

22    than Kalinovik municipality.  A half illiterate or illiterate person will

23    see the colour but will not understand the essence.  That's why maps like

24    this on their own serve more to confuse than to explain things to a lay

25    person. That is why I, in a certain way, can be the one who has tried to

Page 13480

 1    deceive the general public.  But I didn't.  My wall map had a lot of

 2    additional information which then served to explain the things that may

 3    have been confusing.

 4            Look at the map of Bosnia-Herzegovina which in 1991 was the way it

 5    was.  This was the reflection of the situation in 1991.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Well, it's time for a break, Witness.  We have to

 7    break here.

 8            Mr. Krsnik, as you said that compared with this witness we are all

 9    laymen so I guess this witness could not be misled by specific questions

10    so after the break, I hope you could ask some specific questions

11    concerning these maps.

12            We will rise until 4.00.

13                          --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.  You are allowed to ask some leading

16    questions to this witness.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

18       Q.   Professor, those of us who are experts in the legal profession

19    obviously see certain things in a different way compared to you, but try

20    to be as specific as possible.  I put to you as specific questions as I

21    can and please answer as much to the point as possible.

22            Now, this ethnic map, could you explain the colours and what was

23    the purpose for this -- for which the map was drafted?  Is it for the

24    census or whatever?

25       A.   Thank you.  Your Honours, at the very beginning of my testimony, I

Page 13481

 1    feel the need to explain certain matters for, if I don't do it now, later

 2    on the map will remain unclear to many an observer.  The map is the fruit

 3    and result of the different developments and trends in the development of

 4    the three constitutive peoples.  Now, it has been said, and this is true

 5    indeed, that Bosnia-Herzegovina, in all Yugoslavia, had the most dynamic

 6    growth of its population among all the federal units of the former

 7    Yugoslavia.  Now, this statement alone says nothing about this country.

 8    This most dynamic growth is in fact the result of the diversities and the

 9    disparities that are obvious when comparing the constitutive peoples

10    with another one.  If this growth is then reduced to the three constituent

11    people, then the demographic value of this growth becomes quite a

12    different matter.  To put it in terms of interpretation, it would sound as

13    following: Bosnia-Herzegovina, in 1981, in 1991, for example, had a higher

14    growth of the Muslim population than was the percentage growth in its

15    total population.  Of course, you might be flabbergasted by this

16    statement, and you might not be satisfied with it.  Therefore, may I be

17    allowed to add a sentence or two because this might lead us to it a more

18    concise and briefer answer later on?  Namely, the growth of a population

19    is the result of birth, deaths and migrations.  How, then, is it possible

20    for one of the constituent peoples to have a higher growth than the entire

21    country, comprising three constituent peoples?  This is possible in the

22    following manner.

23            One people grew faster on the basis of higher births and migration

24    of population from other entities, while in other parts, birth rates were

25    lower and people were leaving these individual territories.  This,

Page 13482

 1    however, is only part of the answer, why are some peoples having lower

 2    birth rates? Why in one entity are people leaving the territory more often

 3    than in others.  If we take just one example, if we take the Croats and

 4    compare them to Muslims, there were twice-higher birth rates among the

 5    Muslim population and six-fold migration from the Croat populated

 6    territories compared to the Muslims.  In other words, quantities, figures,

 7    percentages, are disrupted and through this disruption, the quality of

 8    this sensitive social fabric is also being disrupted.  And if this

 9    sensitive social fabric, which lives in circumstances of an underdeveloped

10    economy, you try dividing the little riches you have among more people

11    than in the past, then obviously nobody will be satisfied.

12            If those who are more productive get less, then this will give

13    rise to the feeling of injustice and inequality of rights and inequality

14    is in fact, in my view the result of insufficiently developed economies.

15    Hence, one can draw the following relevant conclusion, as far as I can see

16    matters.

17            Once you have little and you're trying to divide this to many,

18    then everybody will be dissatisfied.  If you are trying to raise funds for

19    a budget, then you have a limited source of funds, obviously, and those

20    who are bigger in number will then decide on ways and means in which the

21    budget will be distributed.  And then step by step, dissatisfaction

22    escalates and this dissatisfaction gives rise to social frustrations,

23    social clashes which usually are referred to as national, religious or

24    Balkan syndromes.

25            When I say that some were leaving the country of birth during

Page 13483

 1    peace time, this is usually just an expression, and this is of course

 2    viewed from the point of view of a demographer, so this is an expression

 3    of their dissatisfaction at home.  And I told you what later on this may

 4    lead into.  So throughout the 20th century, the demographic competition,

 5    if I my use this word, in the relevant territory has been going on and on,

 6    and resulting in the fact that the majority population became the Serbs,

 7    and in the second half of the 20th century, the majority population would

 8    become the Muslims.  The smallest number would, in the structure of

 9    population, be Croats who are now pushed into a situation of expecting

10    what is next to come.  So in my people, in my local culture, usually

11    people tend to use all sorts of sayings.  One of them is, a donkey that

12    has to compete with two horses will find it very difficult to win in the

13    race.  I hope I haven't insulted either the donkeys or the horses or my

14    fellow citizens who are not of my ethnic background.

15            This is why I think that the map in front of you is the context

16    within which we need to seek answers to the question why the country I

17    come from has been sort of exposed to a growing feeling of dissatisfaction

18    which unfortunately culminates in a tragedy affecting one and all.

19            Within the context of the counsel's question, I will show you a

20    map --

21       Q.   What is the number of this map?

22       A.   406.  Now, this map, 406, is -- was drafted five years prior to

23    the former map.  Obviously this map is the result of the war that raged in

24    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  For the sake of simplification, I should like to

25    outline the context and not the result, the outcome because the outcome is

Page 13484












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Page 13485

 1    obviously very tragic as is illustrated by this map.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Witness, you said this map 406 was drafted five years

 3    prior to the former map.  I notice that this map was drafted in 1996, and

 4    the previous one is 1991.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, this was a mistake made by your

 6    interpreter?

 7       A.   You're right, Your Honour.  This was a mistake on my part.  I

 8    wanted to conclude with one sentence.  Any simplification whatsoever in --

 9    even in terms of cartography, when my country is concerned, has no

10    practical value whatsoever.  All averages, given the history of my

11    country, and given the economy and the culture, such as it has prevailed,

12    have resulted in this demographic structure.  Averages on the one hand is

13    one matter, and as we usually put it, without superimposing upon the

14    averages, demographic cultural, economic situations will only bring us

15    further from an insight into the context that I have just been describing.

16            I know I can't continue but this is possibly the situation which

17    breeds the crisis that culminated in the war.

18            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   Very briefly, we have this map in front of us.  Could you explain

20    the -- this Trial Chamber, what is the difference comparing 1991, where we

21    have a very picturesque map compared to 1996, where we have a rather more

22    homogeneous structure?

23       A.   Trying to answer your question, well, I have already explained the

24    situation to a certain extent.  Ethnic cleansing caused by migration of

25    the Serbs and the Croats throughout the 20th century was the result of

Page 13486

 1    these migrations.  The war, however, only expedited this sort of

 2    development.  And the consequence of these developments is the map in

 3    front of you.

 4       Q.   Could you tell us what do the colours depict?

 5       A.   Well, the red colour, this was a long time ago, in 1996.  Changes

 6    took place in this map because the red colour shrank and the red colour

 7    depicts the Croats, except in the part of the map which is Bosanski Drvar,

 8    Bosanski Grahovo and Glamoc.  Now, why did this happen I'll tell you

 9    later. The green colour depicts the Muslims or the Bosniaks, who now chose

10    their new name and the blue colour stands for the Serbs.  In other words

11    we are here facing a process which is the consequence of the war but if we

12    examine this at the level of information that is available

13    internationally, particularly within the framework of the UNHCR and on the

14    basis of some data and information which have to do with the census for

15    the purpose of election, one can conclude the following.

16            The return of the Muslims was more intensive than the return of

17    the Croats to Bosnia-Herzegovina, and what is particularly important in

18    the entity which is called the federation, the Muslims, that used to live

19    in current Republika Srpska territory are now returning to the

20    federation.  In this manner, I'm afraid, we are now in fact concreting the

21    situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina such as you can see on this map.  In other

22    words, there is less and less, territory available for Croats to return to

23    Central Bosnia and also to Republika Srpska and this applies also to the

24    Muslims returning back.  Obviously these are the conclusions based on

25    sources that are not credible.  Some newspapers and publications were

Page 13487

 1    used.  Unfortunately, after the war, a proper census, population census,

 2    could not be carried out.  However, it would be an avoidable and a very

 3    much necessary type of research for anybody to be able to see how this war

 4    ravaged country's structure has been changed.

 5       Q.   I have two more questions.  The first is the following.  You as an

 6    expert and under the patronage of the United Nations participated in the

 7    drafting and designing of the maps and also in relation to the peace

 8    agreements reached under the patronage of the international community.

 9    Why were your maps or maps such as the one I have in front of me, were

10    usually made by minority population representatives and not by the

11    majority population representatives?

12       A.   I emphasised this in my introductory testimony, namely that I was

13    a member of the BH delegation experts attending the London conference held

14    in 1992 on the former Yugoslavia.  Furthermore, I also emphasised that I

15    participated in the preparation and drafting of professional foundations

16    for the political agreements to be later on reached within the framework

17    of the Vance-Owen Plan.

18       Q.   If I may interrupt you, you gave me -- this is probably the single

19    original available -- of the Vance-Owen Plan signed in New York on the

20    26th, I think, or 23rd of March, 1993, containing original signatures of

21    all participants but Mr. Karadzic's signature.  Perhaps it would be a good

22    idea to put this on the ELMO to comment on this document.  But could you

23    tell us something?  Why parts with a majority population of one ethnic

24    background and other ethnic background and then we will come to Mostar

25    where the Prosecution says one thing, the Defence didn't have the

Page 13488

 1    necessary answers to come back to my question, why do parts of

 2    municipalities with this minority and that majority are important?  Could

 3    you please explain to us what this is all about?

 4       A.   I'll be very glad to do that but I'm afraid that I'll be

 5    penalised for a lengthy answer.

 6            First, it is true that I was an expert who participated in the

 7    preparation of the Vance-Owen Plan.  Here you have the signatures, but

 8    one, who will then be added after the Athens and Pale and other events.

 9    Unfortunately, this political project was not of long lifespan.  Here I

10    use the colours to show the border lines that had at that time been

11    agreed.  It is obvious that the current shape and structure of my country

12    is quite different.  Your question was?

13       Q.   Majority-minority.  Why did all the maps, as part of international

14    agreements, depart from this fact?

15       A.   Your Honours --

16       Q.   Professor, could you please slow down?

17       A.   The current appearance of my country will indeed reflect the

18    principal criterion on the basis of which it was shaped and drafted.  The

19    majority Serb territories are the Republika Srpska and the majority

20    Muslim-Croat are the federation.  Does this not speak for itself?  Namely

21    that the ethnic criterion was the decisive one, was the predominant one.

22    One remark:  Participating in this whole affair, under the patronage of

23    the United Nations, participating in the Vienna negotiations as a

24    foundation for the Dayton peace agreements, the application of this

25    criterion resulted in the following:  58-42 for the benefit of the

Page 13489

 1    federation entities comprising the federation.  Even today, I'm not quite

 2    sure why 51 to 49 ratio was eventually adopted.  On the basis of this

 3    criterion, there is the difference of 7 percentage points to the detriment

 4    of the federation.

 5            Now, speaking about the majority population and the minority

 6    population, I must admit one thing to you.  These notions, and these

 7    concepts, in the past, before the war, were not topical, were not

 8    operative concepts.  In fact, the first maps after the war, that you had

 9    seen at the very beginning of my testimony show, that this will eventually

10    become a very frequent criterion used in negotiations, peace plans, and in

11    the final organisation and structuring of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Naturally

12    one could say that at that time two entities it were in fact available or

13    proposed.  Reminding you of the minority-majority criterion which was

14    particularly topical and interesting in the first stage of the war,

15    through the development of the so-called Serb autonomous provinces and

16    Serb regions, which at that time were sending a signal of warning also

17    through the political terminology used, that this, as it turned out to be,

18    was an introduction to the war based on this principle.  Unfortunately to

19    this very date, everything changed in Bosnia-Herzegovina except

20    municipalities as such, which are almost half a century old.

21            By the way, if, in a semi-literate society this criterion was not

22    heeded, the criterion which 50 years later, when literacy has prevailed,

23    will become the criterion on which the country will be -- on the basis of

24    which the country will be organised.  In other words, the municipal, legal

25    and actual predominance of the majority over the others did occur.  Why is

Page 13490












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Page 13491

 1    this important?  This is important in terms of the distribution of

 2    authority and budgetary funds.

 3            Let me also say the following:  Today, we know that before the

 4    war, 44 per cent of the Bosnia-Herzegovina population were Muslims, 31 per

 5    cent were the Serbs, and 17 per cent, maybe a little more, were the

 6    Croats.  However, given the demographic fact, given the migration of the

 7    Muslims to Bosnia, the Bosnian electorate was much smaller, given their

 8    age structure, than was their overall percentage in the total population.

 9    In fact it was about 38 per cent.  The Serbs were demographically an older

10    group, so 36 per cent of the Serbs were part of the electorate.  And for

11    the Croats the relevant number was 22 per cent.  This interesting

12    demographic statistics could be used by you to question this country's

13    organisation.  Given the plebiscite, given the referendum, and Serbs'

14    abstention from the referendum, given the fact that only two entities

15    ethnicities participated in the referendum, namely only the Muslims and

16    the Croats, and to go on with the specific features of this country, it

17    goes without saying that two peoples cannot recognise their own country on

18    their own, unless this is a combination of the Serbs and the Muslims who

19    are larger in number.

20            Well, I'm not a legal expert myself.  However, I know that my

21    country did not have enough demographic clout to be recognised

22    internationally, but to my satisfaction, the international community did

23    recognise it officially in the end.

24            You need to in fact hear also this post factum statements.  Of

25    course they were printed and published in my book on time but what

Page 13492

 1    happened happened.

 2       Q.   Let's give the Chamber another, only original version with the

 3    signatures of all the participants in the Vienna talks.  That was on the

 4    11 May, 1994, the Bosnian delegation was led by Mr. Haris Silajdzic and

 5    Mr. Kresimir Zubak was the leader of the Croatian delegation.  That was on

 6    the eve of the Dayton Accords, and it was the introduction to the Dayton

 7    Accords.

 8       Q.   Can you please give us your brief comment on that document?  And

 9    then we will move on to the topic of the city of Mostar.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With regard to my very limited

11    material competences, can I ask Madam Registrar to copy this huge format

12    and shrink it into a smaller size?  I could not find a photocopier where I

13    could do it?

14       A.   You could see the signatures of the delegations of the Bosniak and

15    the Croatian delegations in Vienna in the first half of May, 1994.  We,

16    after the Washington Agreements, we were happy, we were satisfied that the

17    war was finally over and we did not hide that.  In a certain way, we, if

18    you will allow me to express my emotions, we were happy that the tragedy

19    was behind us, and we, bearing in mind the criteria, which still leave a

20    lot of room for discussion, we established -- we came up with a joint

21    proposal that was in a conversation with the mediation of the contact

22    group, and that was in the conversation with the delegation of the Serbian

23    people, that was just another attempt to organise the area to the benefit

24    of all the concerned peoples, all the three peoples.  Obviously the Dayton

25    peace accords resulted in something very different.  Again, I would like

Page 13493

 1    to say the municipality which was 50 years old was not respected,

 2    especially when it came to the minority.  So the structure of

 3    municipalities did not respect the national structure.  I'm not saying

 4    this because I think that my state has been turned into a ghetto or that

 5    the ghettoisation of my state was attempted with that, but because this

 6    was an attempts to avoid the direct clash that could have broken out

 7    between the peoples.  I still believe that this is just a transitional

 8    need for us to try and learn how to live with each other in order to be

 9    able to live together.  There is a term which is used in my state, and

10    that term is "peaceful Bosnia."  In this country, you have heard a lot

11    from many people, I'm sure that this term has been used, and I'm sure that

12    you know that it is very hard to translate this term, but part of the

13    answer lies in that term.

14            What I'm saying is that people did live next to each other in

15    their municipalities, in their parishes, in their religious communities.

16    I am using the terms with religious denotation reflecting the territorial

17    division of this area.

18       Q.   Professor, in English, the word is going to be the same, the

19    religious municipalities are called in different ways in different

20    languages.

21       A.   Zupa, Z-U-P-A is a Catholic municipality.  Parohija,

22    P-A-R-O-H-I-J-A, is an orthodox municipality, where the orthodox

23    population prevails. Dzemat, D-Z-E-M-A-T , is also a territorial unit

24    where the Muslim population lives and where Islam confession is practised.

25    So this is where Bosnia indeed was peaceful.  However, melting -- a

Page 13494

 1    melting pot never was something that really existed in Bosnia and

 2    Herzegovina.  This was very much the result of the situation that

 3    prevailed after the year 1945.  The melting pot did not -- did not pass

 4    the test of time.  When I say that, I mean particularly that the

 5    semi-literate people, with over 50 per cent rate of illiteracy in the

 6    state, was not the best resource, the best medium, who could be said with

 7    too much credibility, "as of yesterday there is no God."  I witnessed that

 8    myself.  I know my father, my mother, my grandfather, my grandmother,

 9    still believe, and in my family I could not believe that there was no God,

10    as I was told, and I believe that this is a normal human right that

11    belongs to every confession and every nation.  This is equally Muslim,

12    Catholic and Orthodox right.  Throughout my life, I convinced myself that

13    this shouldn't bother those who do not have religion in their souls.

14       Q.   Professor, I am moving on to my last question.  I'll try to put it

15    to you in the following way:  The demographic and territorial terms, what

16    is the city of Mostar, and particularly, the census 1991, and are there

17    any scientific methods that you have used throughout your research that

18    could shed some light on the allegation that we have heard in this

19    courtroom, that there was ethnic cleansing of any people in the city of

20    Mostar?  Was any people ethnically cleansed in the city of Mostar?  And

21    can this be either proved or denied based on scientific facts?

22       A.   I have to be very brief --

23            MR. SCOTT:  I think goes beyond the scope on which this witness

24    has been tendered.  He's been tendered as a demographer and not on

25    conclusions whether ethnic cleansing occurred and I think Your Honours

Page 13495

 1    will have to decide that question.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik, I believe that you have to rephrase

 3    your question.  You could ask this witness to show the different

 4    statistics before the war, after the war, but this witness is certainly

 5    not a fact witness.

 6            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm not surprised with such a

 7    position that we just heard from the Prosecution.  Before I had my first

 8    conversation with the professor, I was an absolute layperson and I was

 9    very ignorant when I started reading books and when I got the first

10    explanation from the professor, the title of the expert work is the state

11    between ethnic cleansing in peace and the ethnic cleansing in war.

12    Demography is the science that deals with that topic, based on the

13    scientific facts.  This is the essence of this science.  And here we have

14    the scientist who can explain this.  He can give us scientific evidence to

15    illustrate the changes that took place in municipalities, villages and

16    towns.  I am now looking for the scientific explanation of what has really

17    happened.  I'm looking for scientific truth from this professor.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  In very brief

19    terms, in front of you, you have the map of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

20    covering the periods from censuses 1990 --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, I did not catch these.  The

22    interpreter apologises, the interpreter did not catch the years.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Can we have the number of that exhibit?

25       A.   408.  The black areas --

Page 13496












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Page 13497

 1       Q.   I'm sorry for warning you so often.  Can you please slow down?

 2       A.   The black areas, in other words municipalities, show the

 3    demographic drain of the Croatian majority in the administrative,

 4    territorial division, as the result of various demographic processes

 5    prevailing amongst the three peoples.  And that in turn is the result, not

 6    only of demographic, but also social, cultural, economic and other reasons

 7    based on which one population develops.

 8            May I say at this point that while Germany is looking after over

 9    20 per cent of its aged population, at the same time, the underdeveloped

10    India has over 36 per cent of school-age population.  China, which has

11    several billions of inhabitants is struggling how to manage families and

12    how to reduce families to have only one or two children, because it is

13    overpopulated.  In the area where I live, the consequences are what they

14    are because of the reasons that I have mentioned.  The demographic drain

15    results in a social losses.  The sensitive tissue, the sensitive fabric of

16    Bosnia-Herzegovina is very complex and it had to learn about its

17    complexities in order to it be able to manage them.  Why this did not

18    happen is a different story.  And that is why social collisions based on

19    all different differences sometimes can live together and sometimes they

20    escalate.  When we say that everything is changing --

21            JUDGE LIU:  Well, professor, I'm sorry to interrupt you but the

22    Defence counsel was asking a very specific question, which is concentrated

23    on one city, which this Trial Chamber is most interested in.  That is in

24    Mostar.  Tell me something about the change of the populations in Mostar

25    before the war and after the war.

Page 13498

 1            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   When I was reading your book, you called Mostar a "Mostar case,"

 3    as a typical example of political manipulation.  So I found that in your

 4    book.  Can I please now ask you to explain to all of us here in the

 5    courtroom what has happened with Mostar to this very day?

 6       A.   If you would allow me, Your Honours, I would like to say that it

 7    is very difficult to explain my country and what it is all about with just

 8    simple yes or no.  I started to interpret this map, but I am going to

 9    remove her from the ELMO now, but I will to have go back to that map

10    again.  Now I am showing you the Exhibit 409, the map 409, which shows the

11    territorial position and the territorial area of the administrative unit

12    of Mostar throughout the past 100 years, between 1879 and 1991.  It is

13    clear that the differences in the size of this administrative unit, and

14    its shape, and in its colour -- when I say shape, this shows changes over

15    time, and the colour shows the predominant people, the people

16    predominating at the time.  It is clear that until the year 1961, the red

17    colour predominates and the light red colour predominates and that in

18    1971, 1981, 1991, there is a change and there is a zigzag change in line.

19    The green colour here depicts the majority Muslim population.  And this is

20    what I have spoken about so far, the notion of majority and the notion of

21    minority is not just a demographic and statistical notion but it is the

22    overall social issue and that in the development of one society encumbered

23    by the political ideology, this issue can be manipulated and abused.  This

24    can be done by way of assessing things, of giving privileges.  I don't

25    have a proper answer to the question as to how can one people, that is in

Page 13499

 1    more specific terms, the Croatian people, can have the following

 2    characteristics?  How can it be the least numerous, the most prone to

 3    emigration?  And we all know that it is very hard to leave one's

 4    own house, one's own home, how can it be the least organised and at the

 5    same time how can it be the most educated and also at the same time how

 6    can it occupy the least number of positions in the so-called public

 7    sector, which entitled to those who are employed there to a number of

 8    privileges in terms of acquiring all the necessary resources of one's

 9    existence?

10       Q.   Let's move on to 1991.  I'm going to give you this fact.  Here, we

11    can see --

12            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Krsnik, this witness was called as a

13    demographer, not as a politician or an apologist for the Croatian nation

14    or culture.  Now, control your expert witness.

15            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Judge Clark, I

16    did not know how wide, how broad, is the scope of this science,

17    demography.  Demography has to have all this data available in order to

18    come up with certain assessments.  Here in the courtroom we heard that in

19    1991, there were Muslims, Serbs and Croats in the city.  And we heard some

20    figures, some statistical figures.  Can you please give us who was the

21    minority, majority, or whatever people in the city of Mostar?  How was it

22    organised?  What was the majority population in the city or in the

23    municipality of Mostar?  We have been confused on that.  Can you please

24    try to shed some light on that?

25       A.   I really apologise if anybody think that is I'm advocating

Page 13500

 1    anybody.  This is an omission on my part.  But this is what I usually tell

 2    my students in order to give them the essence of the context, because

 3    people do not propagate out of the context.  The municipality of Mostar

 4    had its national composition in 1991 that national composition shows a

 5    Muslim prevalence.  In this specific case, the Muslim population prevailed

 6    by 0.6 over the Croatian population.  However, when it comes to the

 7    municipality of Mostar, very often there are numerous such examples that

 8    the municipality of Mostar is manipulated, has been manipulated at the

 9    detriment, to the detriment of the factual truth, and the factual truth is

10    that every municipality, including Mostar, has its own centre, its own

11    nucleus.  The nucleus or the centre of this municipality was 70 per cent

12    of the municipal population.  Now, what is the manipulation all about?

13    The manipulation consisted in the fact that the municipal structure served

14    to show a message to the world that Muslims prevailed in the city of

15    Mostar and that Mostar was a predominantly Muslim city.  I'm not disputing

16    that.  I'm not saying that it wasn't.  The city of Mostar was at the same

17    time a Jewish town, although in statistical terms, there are only 14 Jews

18    living.  But if we are going to be statistically precise, then the city of

19    Mostar has the prevailing Croat population.  Why am I saying this?  It is

20    very important that the general public is not deceived, that the general

21    public understands the facts for what they are without purporting to hurt

22    anybody.

23            The city of Mostar, or the city area of Mostar, unlike the

24    municipality of Mostar, is the central focal point of what is the main

25    part of my expert opinion.  I have to say another thing, again based on

Page 13501

 1    statistics.  There is no doubt that -- and I can corroborate that with the

 2    papers that I have in my brief case.  I can quote all the statistical data

 3    to you if you're interested in hearing them.  But to my mind, it is much

 4    more important for me to say, to give you the approximate figures to

 5    illustrate what I am talking about.  The city of Mostar is on a river and

 6    the river has its left bank and its right bank, and if we look at that

 7    statistics, then I, as an expert, was very much impressed and very much

 8    surprised with the following fact.  As long ago as 1953, statistics, as

 9    everywhere else in the world, even then followed the recommendations of

10    the UN statistical organisation.  In my expert work, I said that what is

11    in -- what is incompatible with the 1991 census, what is not compatible

12    with the 1991 census.  The state offered the general public data on all

13    the inhabited municipalities, including the municipality of Mostar, in a

14    rather correct way.  However, the question is raised here.  I asked that

15    question myself.  This data was pretty much hidden from me.  Why would a

16    state such as it was, why did it publish the data in 1961, 1971, 1981,

17    only for one part of the city of Mostar?  That is for five city

18    neighbourhoods.  And at the same time, it did not publish the data on the

19    entire territory of the city of Mostar, and which it was as long ago as in

20    1953.

21            JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Which five municipalities were

22    those?  Which five neighbourhoods were those?  Five out of how many?  For

23    a better understanding, five neighbourhoods in Mostar of how many of them

24    in total?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I said that, I'll correct

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Page 13503

 1    myself.  Only five municipalities -- for only five municipalities, the

 2    statistical data were published, and there were seven others which were

 3    recognised in 1953.  So that's five out of 12.

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   I apologise, professor.  It is very difficult for all of us to

 6    follow you.  First you have to slow down.  Secondly, you have to explain

 7    yourself thoroughly.  Not even our Honourable Judges, not even my learned

 8    friends can follow you.  I can do it a little bit better.  When you say

 9    the city of Mostar, can you please give us its composition?

10       A.   Can I use some statistical data if I do that?

11            JUDGE CLARK:  I don't want to lose the bit.  You were saying

12    something very interesting, professor.  As long ago as 1953 statistics,

13    you looked at it and you were really surprised.  You never told us what

14    surprised you in the 1953 statistics, and you seemed to have gone astray

15    and we are still waiting to find out.  You were talking about the city

16    being divided into two banks and it sounded as if some part of the city

17    was never included in the census, but we've lost that.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for having noticed that.

19    I obviously was under the impression that you understand me.  I'll go

20    back.  I'll follow up on your question, and I'll try to be -- to say that

21    in simpler terms.  My surprise was a statistical surprise which consisted

22    of the following.  Every city, including the city of Mostar, has its

23    territorial organisation, has its territory which is considered to be the

24    territory of that city and which is composed of some neighbourhoods which

25    are more or less densely populated.  The official statistics role is to

Page 13504

 1    take into account that during the census and publicise the data for the

 2    territory for which -- to which the census is applied.  And they did that

 3    only for the year 1953.  Despite the fact that in the meantime, the

 4    territory of the city of Mostar has grown.  In 1961, 1971, 1981, the

 5    official statistics has excluded some of its neighbourhoods, and that is

 6    what I found so surprising, because earlier on, I must admit, I was not

 7    interested in that.  I did not pay any attention to that.  Why didn't I

 8    pay any attention to that?  If I -- if I live somewhere for 30 years and

 9    if I wanted to study the local demographics of any such town or if I

10    wanted to study the local demographics of one part of Sarajevo I would

11    have found it very hard to do if I based that research on the official

12    statistics, because such statistical data were not published, although

13    the -- all the censuses did collect all that data.  There are various

14    reasons to explain that.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  Can I ask a question?  I think what Judge Diarra and

16    I wanted to know was:  Was the area, which was described as the city of

17    Mostar in 1953, larger, therefore, than the area which was described as

18    the city of Mostar for purposes of census in 1961, 1971 and 1981?  Or was

19    there a fraud perpetrated on the people who were reading the statistics?

20    In other words, they pretended the area was the same but in fact it had

21    shrunk?  Is that what you're saying?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is exactly what I am trying to

23    say.  With your permission, Your Honours, I have this folder with me with

24    all the data and I can put them on the ELMO for you to see what I'm

25    talking about.

Page 13505

 1            JUDGE LIU:  I see there is no objections from the Prosecution.

 2    You may use it.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott?  Are there any objections?

 5            MR. SCOTT:  There is no objection, Your Honour, but I think at

 6    this point, the Chamber will note that I've been very quiet this

 7    afternoon.  I just want to note for the record at this point we are now

 8    being, the Prosecution has now been confronted with an abundance of

 9    information since this testimony started which we've never seen, in fact

10    many of which we have not seen, because it hasn't been provided to us.

11    I'm sure the Chamber will understand we will not in a position to conduct

12    a full cross-examination of this witness so perhaps he may be brought back

13    in the future when we have a better chance to see the information,

14    including the information the witness is now pulling out of his brief case

15    for the first time, which has never been provided to the Prosecution.  I'm

16    sure we will not be able to finish our cross-examination.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Well, we will take note of what you said.  But we'll

18    see after the direct examination.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Krsnik, if the professor could just show us the

20    size of the municipality of Mostar for census purposes in 1953 and then

21    how it shrunk and thereafter, but what I'd really like to know is what

22    happened to the missing people?  Did they get attached to some other place

23    or did they just disappear into a black hole?

24            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Exactly.  That was in fact my

25    principal question but it is very difficult for me to guide the professor.

Page 13506

 1    One reason being my ignorance, and another reason being that the professor

 2    finds it difficult to follow our legal mind and direction, because your

 3    question, in fact, would have been the crux of my questions, and the

 4    witness prepared a special study, a research, for the whole of Mostar, for

 5    the UNHCR from house address numbers to the house councils, et cetera.  We

 6    just have to it be a bit patient.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When trying to explain why the

 8    municipalities persisted for such a long period of time I should have said

 9    the following:  Mostar is the only city which throughout its entire

10    history, in the censuses, until 1963, was the only city that changed its

11    size, its territory, the only city, the city of Mostar, that was give and

12    new structure, through the Dayton Accords.  And that's a fact.

13            When mentioning the migration of the people from the right bank of

14    the river to the left bank of the river in my expert opinion, I failed to

15    understand the legislator.  In fact I was not interested in the

16    legislators line of thinking why they kept doing it in the case of Mostar

17    from one census to another.  However what was the consequence of this

18    territorial change is something that I tried to show to you.  I will now,

19    to be more specific as possible, I'll show you the foundations on which I

20    arrived at the conclusions that I'm sharing here with you today.

21            Could somebody help me, please?  Because I can't manipulate with

22    this equipment myself.  I apologise.

23            So if you would be kind enough to have a look at this, I will read

24    out the columns.  On the top, it says, the population according to the

25    ethnic structure in terms of local communities of the municipality of

Page 13507

 1    Mostar.  These are the lists that were usually drafted in the course of

 2    all censuses.  This is one stage in the entire census procedure.  What I

 3    wanted to emphasise, however, is the following:  All stages, given the

 4    high costs of censuses, are not being published.  So some territorial

 5    units, such as the local communities, which are parts of the -- of a town,

 6    are very difficult to understand.  The data are very difficult to gather

 7    unless you have an insight into the statistical office's detailed

 8    records.  This might sound funny to you but this is the fact.  I'm not

 9    going to lament this fact but this has to do with the so-called

10    politically sensitive issue of the ethnic question in Yugoslavia.

11            However, I, as a scientist always say the sensitive issues will

12    become even more sensitive unless we understand the degree of sensitivity

13    of that issue and the trend of either growing or declining sensitivity.

14    Here you have all sorts of signs that I made in order to be able to

15    establish the statistical accuracy and nothing else.  So these are the

16    so-called local communities in the city of Mostar.

17            Now, I will show you another original list, which refers to Mostar

18    in 1991.  Now, first column says, "Area," then municipality, city of

19    Mostar, if we go down, then the municipality of Mostar, left bank and

20    right bank.  And having seen these data, one can conclude the following.

21    The city of Mostar, such as it is shown through these statistical data,

22    had, in 1991, 92.768 citizens.  Croats, as I mentioned before, live inside

23    the city and they were the most populace in the city, and not in the

24    municipality, 3.266.  The next number, 8.085, is the number of Muslims.

25    Then 17.413, the number of Serbs.  And then we have 12.222, which is the

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13   English transcripts.













Page 13509

 1    number of those who expressed themselves as Yugoslavs and 2.587 are the

 2    so-called others.  We were now reading the line which is called Mostar

 3    city.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott?

 5            MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, just so the record is clear I'm sure the

 6    witness apparently made a mistake when the number that came across in the

 7    transcript for the Muslim number was 8.085.  I believe on his document, if

 8    it's correct, it says 28.185.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  I saw that.  I'll ask the witness to confirm

10    that.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, Mr. Scott.  I can't

12    guarantee that I can read these figures well but I'm always -- I always

13    stand to be corrected.

14            Now, if we view now the city of Mostar and single out these data

15    from the statistics that are officially available, only in the statistical

16    offices, then we can make the conclusions that I described in my previous

17    statements.  At that time, the city of Mostar has its right bank and its

18    left bank, which, in a way, is indicative of the structure of the city.

19    This city, in other words, it would be good if I had my expert opinion now

20    in my hands.  To be as correct and precise as possible, at least as far as

21    statistical data show and statistical data is the only data that I can

22    really believe, because these are official records concerning the data of

23    any country, including mine.

24            Now, we are talking about the following matter.  The city of

25    Mostar should have shown, in terms of statistics, data, and in terms of

Page 13510

 1    the neighbourhoods, in my expert study -- this is page 18 in the original,

 2    I don't know which is the relevant page in translation.  So the statistics

 3    in 1953, with your permission, should have been the following, and with

 4    your permission, I'll read out the statistics for the sake of accuracy.

 5            Let us immediately proceed to the bottom of this page, which reads

 6    as follows.  "The city of Mostar in terms of its ethnic structure, of its

 7    population is a heterogeneous city.  However, the Croats are the most

 8    populate ethnicity.  Throughout the first and thorough administrative and

 9    territorial restructuring in the territory of Herzegovina, which took

10    place in 1953, so after the second world war, when my country had about 50

11    per cent of its entire population illiterate, the city of Mostar comprised

12    the neighbourhoods of Brankovac, Carina, Cernica, Donja Mahala, Luka,

13    Zahum -- and the neighbourhoods of Cim, Ilici, Rodoc, Vihovici [phoen],

14    Rastani and Vrapcici.  It is difficult for me to find everything.  I'll

15    just continue.  It is difficult to find a rational or reasonable answer to

16    the question why official statistics throughout the censuses that

17    followed, that I had already mentioned, showed the number and the

18    structure of the so-called city population for the first group of

19    neighbourhoods only, and/or for only some -- I am coming to the end --

20    some parts of the territory of the city of Mostar.

21            In the meantime, i.e. through the following 50 years, obviously,

22    Mostar went beyond its former territorial boundaries and the statistical

23    data blindly followed the city of Mostar focusing only upon the first

24    aforementioned group of neighbourhoods.  Here, in the city of Mostar, not

25    knowing about it, for 40 years, two cities grew and developed next to one

Page 13511

 1    another.  One which is real and much bigger, and the other one which is

 2    the official statistical city of Mostar, which was boiled down to a

 3    small group of its neighbourhoods.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, could you please tell us on which

 5    page in the English version?

 6            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'll check it during the break, Your

 7    Honours.  I would like to conclude with my examination until the break.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott?

 9            MR. SCOTT:  Page 24, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  Thank you.

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

12            JUDGE LIU:  So shall we break now, Mr. Krsnik?

13            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I suggest that I

14    complete with my part, because we haven't come as far as 1993 and 1994.

15    In fact, I would prefer to hand the professor over to my learned friend.

16       Q.   But professor can you tell us whether the population changes took

17    place in Mostar through what we in lay terms refer to ethnic cleansing?

18    Were there really any migrations or any changes in the population

19    structure?  Did you through your scientific method find out that some

20    people were missing?

21       A.   I tried to share with this Trial Chamber the information based on

22    official statistical data provided by the former republics and current

23    states' official statistical offices.  Of course it's difficult for me to

24    answer this question but I thought that we have to use some of the

25    official statistical data to show that there were errors and mistakes made

Page 13512

 1    even by the official statistical offices.

 2            So that my testimony, in answering your question, could be related

 3    to what has been used as the foundation of my scientific assessment

 4    concerning the credibility of the sources that I had to search for so that

 5    I could, in either absolute or at least approximate terms, discuss the

 6    issues at stake.  All other sources -- and they are abundant indeed --

 7    excited me, not through their credibility, but rather through -- how to

 8    put it without resorting to it an apology -- which, as I said before, led

 9    the public at large to make false, erroneous conclusions, and that in some

10    people, even thwarted the image and the picture of a -- of the specific

11    area, thus, in fact, giving a distorted picture to the public at large of

12    the territory in question.

13            Now, in this context, what I tried to show to you in fact was my

14    attempt to answer your question.  There were changes that took place, and

15    I would have to resort to my credible sources to be able to give you a

16    more detailed and precise answer.

17            MR. KRSNIK:  I will -- with your permission, Your Honours, ask the

18    professor to sort out his documents during the break because the time is

19    really running out.  We already spent two hours.  But after the break,

20    perhaps the witness would be able to answer the question in a more concise

21    manner. And then I would put my final questions, which I'm sure everybody

22    would be interested in.

23       Q.   Maybe just one question before the break:  Professor, do you have

24    any statistical data as to how many Croats from Bosnia-Herzegovina have

25    left since 1991 for the Republic of Croatia?

Page 13513

 1       A.   Shall I be brief?

 2       Q.   Yes.  If you can.

 3       A.   About 316.000 Croats born in Bosnia-Herzegovina are living in the

 4    Republic of Croatia, according to the 1991 census.  But these are figures

 5    and data that I gave you in my expert opinion.  I have a feeling that you

 6    are verifying my knowledge, my awareness of the data that I had supplied

 7    to you.

 8       Q.   No, no.  I'm not testing you at all.  We just have to be very

 9    brief and specific.  We are looking forward to your expert answers because

10    we are lay persons and we are looking forward to you to answer these

11    questions.

12       A.   I am willing to do that.

13       Q.   Could you then perhaps during the break prepare the data as to the

14    changes in Mostar and possible ethnic cleansing developments in Mostar at

15    any point in time?  And now we have to go and have a break for the sake of

16    our interpreters?

17            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, I also hope that if this document

18    has been sorted out, as well as the document used by this witness before,

19    it could be photocopied and furnished to us because they are new

20    documents.

21            So we will rise until ten minutes to 6.00.

22                          --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

23                          --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 13514












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Page 13515

 1       Q.   Witness, you heard my question before the break.  I hope that we

 2    can now focus upon this question and issue, and answer as briefly and to

 3    the point as possible.

 4       A.   Having reviewed the official statistics concerning Mostar, the

 5    municipality of Mostar, and the city of Mostar, as explained by me before,

 6    I'd like to draw the following conclusions.  In the 1991 census, the

 7    municipality of Mostar had a majority population of Muslims comprising

 8    34.8 per cent, then followed by the Croat population with 33.8 per cent,

 9    and with your permission, for the time being, I will not consider the

10    Serbs, the Yugoslavs and the category "others."  In this same census, the

11    city of Mostar has a predominant Croat population, 34.9 per cent to be

12    more specific, followed by Muslims, accounting for 30.4 per cent.  The

13    examined left and right bank of the city shows in these two peoples the

14    following breakdown:  Left bank, 14.4 per cent are Croats and 43.6 per

15    cent are Muslims.  Now, the right bank:  41.5 per cent Croats and 26.1 per

16    cent are Muslims.

17            Your question, counsel, the way I construed it, refers to the

18    following question:  On the basis of my expert opinion, did any changes

19    take place and/or any ethnic cleansing to which either ethnicity would be

20    exposed?  Now, statistical data shows the following.  Before coming to

21    that.  Let me emphasise that so far, I used in my interpretation official

22    statistical data.  However, corrected in terms of the data that refer to

23    the city of Mostar, for reasons explained before.

24            To be able to answer your question, I need to draw the attention

25    of the Trial Chamber to the following fact.  In the period following 1991,

Page 13516

 1    as already described by me on one occasion, there was no further census of

 2    the population.  At the same time, it seems to me, I also added that since

 3    1991, to this very day, all -- I underline "all" -- people, both in

 4    Bosnia-Herzegovina and outside the country, have been involved in all

 5    sorts of statistical operations.  This is why I tend to be very careful

 6    whenever using or interpreting statistical data of whatever source.

 7    However, to be credible in the answer to the question put to me, I also

 8    need to share with the Trial Chamber the following facts.

 9            Given the fact that there was no official census carried out, and

10    given the fact that no official censuses are -- have been announced for

11    the near future, certain assessments can and have to be made on the basis

12    of the data available, and to be able to answer your question, I resorted

13    to some sources which have put up the data for quite different purposes.

14    I have all these sources in my brief case.  However, I limit myself to the

15    most important ones only.

16            One, there is -- there are report prepared by the refugee office

17    titled "Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna."  And the

18    title of the report in fact is the following, "The report on the moment of

19    displaced persons and refugees in the municipality of Mostar from the

20    start of the war, in brackets, the 6th of April, 1992, closed brackets, to

21    the

22    end of the year 1993, including relevant specific data."  The authors are

23    Mirko Alilovic and Ante Aleksic.  I also used other sources which

24    compiled data for other purposes.  I'm specifically referring to the

25    municipal council of the municipality of Mostar, the welfare centre of the

Page 13517

 1    municipality of Mostar, which, for its own purposes, was in charge of the

 2    accommodation of the displaced persons and refugees, and the provision of

 3    humanitarian aid.  The weekly report for the 12th -- 23rd of December,

 4    1994, and the 5th of April, 1995.

 5            The next source is the municipal council of the municipality of

 6    Mostar, the department for social welfare and family care, the report

 7    broken down in terms of local communities which shows the population on

 8    the day of 28th of May, 1994, the 26th of June, 1994, the 29th of July,

 9    1994, the 26th of August, 1994, the 29th of August, 1994, the 30th of

10    September, 1994, and the 28th of October, 1994.

11            These are my basic sources, together with a gamut of other

12    individual sources, I was able to use a large number of data, statistical

13    information, and media sources, and having been involved for 30 years in

14    matters that have to do with statistics, I could consider these to be very

15    credible sources for my expert work.

16            In addition to these, in the meantime, I came across other sources

17    but I will not mention them here.  Yet they can be made available to the

18    Trial Chamber.

19            If we know that ethnic cleansing or the notion of ethnic

20    cleansing, the way I understand it, implies an organised persecution of

21    those of other confessions, then, within this context, I will once again

22    have to resort to the earlier tables.  Statistical data shows --

23            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott?

24            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I apologise for the interruption.  I

25    can't, of course, completely forecast what's going to happen in the next

Page 13518

 1    couple of moments but based on what the witness said just a moment ago I'm

 2    concerned again we are getting beyond the scope of demography and into

 3    other polemics and the witness just said a moment ago, "The notion of

 4    ethnic cleansing, the way I understand it, implies an organised

 5    persecution."  Now I think comments on organised persecution go beyond the

 6    scope of his testimony as a demographer.

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Witness, you came here to testify as a witness

 8    of demographics, not as a legal expert.  We want to know the changes of

 9    the population statistics, but this is not your testimony for the reason

10    of these changes.

11            Yes, you may proceed, Witness.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13            On the right bank of the river, according to the 1991 census,

14    there were 18.286 Muslims and 10.782 Serbs and 10.034 others.  I said

15    earlier that there were 29.095 Croats.  Based on the sources that I have

16    just quoted to you, we can see that, from the beginning of the conflict

17    between Muslims and Croats, as is usually said that took place on the

18    right banks -- bank of the river, throughout the conflict, there were

19    between 8.000 and 11.000 Muslims, which is over one half of their total

20    number.  I have to add something else here.  The entire right bank,

21    neither during the conflict nor at any other time, was under the control

22    of the Croatian Defence Council.  Local community Cernica, which you can

23    see highlighted, and the largest part of Zahum were under the control of

24    the Muslim army.  This is according to my free interpretation.

25            At the same time, in accordance with the sources that I have

Page 13519

 1    personally analysed, in Croatia, there were 2.423 registered refugees from

 2    Mostar, and they were Muslims.  There was a lot more of them in total.

 3    When the data from the sources are interpreted, and when that number of

 4    the refugee population is added to the figure, or better still, if that is

 5    subtracted from the total number of Muslims, I'm talking just about one

 6    people, in order to make it easier for me to explain my total findings,

 7    then the figure of 18.286 Muslims has to be reduced by that number.

 8            If we add to that the fact that the conflict -- because there are

 9    no other credible sources -- that because of the conflict, the men of both

10    peoples, after the conflict most probably left the area with their

11    respective armies, the armies to which they had belonged, we will come to

12    the fact that among the men, there were 3.500 such individuals in the

13    Muslim population.

14            If we also say that before the conflict, a large number of the

15    population in Mostar had escaped, had fled, because that is the sad fact

16    in every war, and also that a large number of Muslims from other areas of

17    Herzegovina, Eastern Herzegovina, came to Mostar, and another most

18    probable fact that a number, a large number, of Serbs, after the

19    liberation of Mostar, left Mostar, then my answer to your question would

20    be, in terms of statistics, in the way I interpret facts and in the way I

21    arrived at this conclusion, so the statistics do not corroborate the

22    widely publicised thing, and that is, again, if, in the city of Mostar,

23    which is corroborated by some other data that I'm aware of, so if there

24    were over 10.000 Croats in the city of Mostar, who came from other parts

25    of Bosnia-Herzegovina, most probably from the left bank of the River

Page 13520












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Page 13521

 1    Neretva, and if in the city, according to the official states, there were

 2    7.650 Croats, then it is most probable that after the conflict, after the

 3    end of the conflict, that a number of them moved from Jablanica and

 4    Konjic, but what was carried by the media, I would agree with that, it

 5    is very difficult to find sources which would show how many Croats

 6    remained on the left bank.

 7            And another thing, about 70 per cent of the Serbs who -- that is

 8    2.5 to 3.000 Serbs who remained in Mostar after the liberation of Mostar,

 9    so I'm talking about 2.500 to 3.000 Serbs, that is 70 per cent of their

10    total number, throughout the war to this very day, have lived on the

11    western -- in the western part of Mostar.  In my brief case, I have a lot

12    of documents showing the names, the numbers of identity cards, of those

13    people who are -- were not Catholics, who were not Croats, who receive

14    pensions, who received humanitarian aid, and who, throughout the conflict,

15    to this very day, have lived there.

16            I live and work at the university, where there are Muslims and

17    Serbs among the faculty, among the students, not to the same extent as

18    there were before the war, and there are people working in the media, in

19    the health care, who are Serbs or Muslims.  So I believe that one should

20    use documents to refute allegations from other documents.

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, professor, I

22    have no further questions.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott?

24            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, if we can just organise our documents

25    for a moment?

Page 13522

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 2            MR. SCOTT:  These are for distribution to the Court.

 3            JUDGE CLARK:  Before Mr. Scott starts, can I ask a question,

 4    professor?  Can I just ask a question?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.

 6            JUDGE CLARK:  Yes.  You've explained very ably that a thesis that

 7    is widely held is incorrect, and you've given us the reasons why but you

 8    haven't actually identified what the widely held wrong thesis is.  Is it

 9    widely held because nobody I think has said that so far, that there is a

10    Muslim majority in Mostar?  Is that the thesis that you intend to refute?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are absolutely correct, and I

12    believe that I have provided you with ample information based on the

13    official statistics that corroborate that fact.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  The reason I asked you the question, professor is

15    that I don't believe anybody has given that evidence in this trial so

16    far.  We haven't heard anything about the change of population since

17    1991.  It just hasn't come into this trial at all, because we understood

18    that there had never been a census.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, you are right.  And I accept

20    your information with satisfaction.  That is true.  However, I am bringing

21    you all the impressions from the country where I live.  Everybody has

22    talked about that, about the fact that the city of Mostar is a Muslim

23    city.  And I have never denied that.  But my subtitle says, "A Muslim town

24    with a predominant Croat majority."  These two things do not go together.

25    I want to be precise when I say something.  But when you are talking to a

Page 13523

 1    large number of people, and when you are not saying the truth, that large

 2    number of people, the mass, starts accepting your lies.  And then we

 3    arrive at something that is called brainwashing.  And this is the answer

 4    to some questions regarding the behaviour of the masses.

 5                          Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

 6       Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 7       A.   Good afternoon, sir.

 8       Q.   Professor, we only have about approximately 45 minutes left

 9    tonight, and I will admit to having some prepared questions that I want to

10    get to eventually, but before I do, I would just like to cover some of the

11    things that have come up just today in the course of your testimony, just

12    to clarify a number of things.  First of all, if you have your bundle of

13    maps or diagrams before you, if I can ask you to look at those for a

14    moment, Exhibit 403, the one you told us about in connection with the --

15    trying not to it use a provocative word, but I think by your own

16    admission it included some political commentary.  Exhibit 403, what was

17    the source of information that you used to characterise the various parts

18    of the map, the municipalities or other parts of the map that you've

19    characterised in terms of in the black and white we can only see various

20    shades of black, white and grey I suppose but what was the source of that

21    information?

22       A.   Mr. Scott, I have to repeat to the Honourable Chamber what is

23    important for this map.  This is the map that reflects my mood.  That is

24    my protest against the aggression that Europe had to stop.  This map kept

25    me in the basements of Sarajevo because this is my personal

Page 13524

 1    interpretation.  This is what I saw.  I just wanted to be, so to speak,

 2    credible in the sense of saying that, as a human being, I felt this

 3    foreboding of the tragedy, and the tragedy struck the places characterised

 4    by black.  I do not pretend that this is a source but this is just my

 5    understanding where places are being shelled, where women are being

 6    raped.  This is what the radio, television and newspapers were allowed to

 7    carry, and this is what I felt sitting in the basement of my Sarajevo flat

 8    for the first seven to eight months of the aggression.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Sir, I think all of us in the courtroom can understand the

10    sort of emotional feelings of going through this kind of experience would

11    cause, and I don't mean to quarrel with you about that at this moment but

12    we can understand, then, Exhibit 4 o 03 to basically be a kind of

13    emotional presentation if you will, not based on any particular statistics

14    or demographic information; is that right?

15       A.   You are absolutely right, and I did not want to hide my emotions

16    but I do not pretend to say anything else but admit that I'm just a human

17    being.

18       Q.   All right.  And if I can direct your attention -- it's not the

19    next numerically, but in the order in which we went through them on

20    direct examination, I believe it's 410.  I would like to ask you a similar

21    question about that, sir.  Can you tell us the source and the data -- the

22    source of the information or data you used to draw certain conclusions or

23    give certain colours or shading to the map that is shown on Exhibit 410?

24    I should say I suppose for the record to be clear, D1/410.

25       A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I have the short, medium or long version of my

Page 13525

 1    answer.  The longest version is in my book.  The following I need to

 2    mention, because it is important.  I was a very fruitful journalist during

 3    1991 and 1992, and my subjects mostly related to this topic, and I -- I

 4    relied on all the information that was available at the time in Sarajevo.

 5    I was also a member of the Crisis Staff which provided for the refugees

 6    and the -- I was also an expert of the first Ministry of social welfare.

 7    I con--

 8       Q.   I apologise but I do want to cover some ground this evening.  I

 9    appreciate what you told us so far but let me be very specific, please.

10    Just you're a demographer, you're told us you're a scientist, so I'm

11    asking for very technical information, if you will, almost as a footnote

12    to a report.  If you can just tell us the source, the actual sources from

13    which you drew the data that's reflected on this map.  Was it statistical

14    information from the statistical office of the government of

15    Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Was it from some non-profit organisation?  Can you

16    just tell us very specifically the names of the sources from which you

17    drew this information?

18       A.   I can tell you that it was the Crisis Staff in Sarajevo in

19    Bosnia-Herzegovina, which followed official information on the number of

20    killed, the dead, injured, and so on and so forth, and of course, it was

21    the key source for this map, the newspapers were published, the radio

22    worked, the television worked for a long time afterwards and the ambition

23    of this map was to show the Sarajevo in which I lived, and also to show

24    where the area -- war struck areas were, where the war-free areas were in

25    Bosnia-Herzegovina and the conclusion of my expert study was that the war

Page 13526












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Page 13527

 1    was waged in the areas which were not predominated by the Serbs, in order

 2    to make room for those who were supposed to be ethnically cleansed from

 3    the so-called Republika Srpska.  So the purpose of this map is just to

 4    provide the reader of the newspaper with the information on where the war

 5    was waged at the beginning of 1991 and the source was the Crisis Staff for

 6    refugees.  I don't know exactly the name of that institution at the time.

 7       Q.   This is again should not be interpreted as indicating demographic

 8    information of the sort that is reflected in some of our other maps but

 9    again this was your interpretation of where some of the worst conflict had

10    happened up to that time; is that correct?

11       A.   If I may say, demographic sources are official statistics, and

12    they use all the other sources that may serve to explain a certain

13    demographic phenomenon.

14       Q.   All right.  On Exhibit 404, please, which is -- appears to be a

15    newspaper article, I basically am just interested in the item that is

16    attributed by your name and in the document, it is the lower right corner

17    approximately.  If the booths have that -- if the translation booths have

18    that, perhaps they could simply read that so that those of us who don't

19    read Croatian could know what this says.  And then maybe I'll have a

20    question about it and maybe I won't?

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's comments we don't have it

22    translated into English.

23            MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Mr. President, if I can inquire of the

24    booths, you don't have the B/C/S original in front of you.

25            THE INTERPRETER:  We do have the B/C/S original, yes.

Page 13528

 1            MR. SCOTT:  Is it possible for someone in the B/C/S booth just to

 2    it read that to us and translate that for us?

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  "In his numerous writings, Ante Markotic

 4    in Oslobodjenje gave the most competent picture of the multi-national,

 5    multi-religious, multi-cultural being in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the most

 6    credible evidence on the deep division and of the fates of its peoples."

 7            MR. SCOTT:

 8       Q.   Right.  And this was published on the 30th of August, 1992; is

 9    that correct, sir?  I'm looking at the handwritten date that someone,

10    perhaps yourself, has written in to the left of this -- on the left side

11    of the page, or approximately the middle of the page.  Do you see that?

12    30 -- it appears to be something like an abbreviation, Oslob 30/8, 1992.

13    Is that the date of this publication?

14       A.   Yes.  That is the date and Oslob is the abbreviation for

15    Oslobodjenje and the text was written by somebody who was -- who awarded

16    the golden medal to me as one of the three winners of that medal.  In this

17    paper, but I would like to say that I have never got this medal because at

18    the time when this happened, I was at the London conference.  But my

19    friends gave me this paper, and I keep it as my document, as part of my

20    documentation.

21       Q.   Where is that publication, excuse me, where is this publication

22    published, please?

23       A.   Oslobodjenje on the 30 August, 1992.  That is at the Oslobodjenja

24    newspaper from Sarajevo.

25       Q.   Now, if I can ask you to look, then, to the next exhibit, 405,

Page 13529

 1    going to continue, sir, to ask you similar questions about a number of

 2    these documents and on this Exhibit 405, the multi-coloured map, again,

 3    can you again tell us, please, the data, the source of the data on which

 4    this chart was prepared?

 5       A.   Certainly, I can.  In short, this is statistical bulletin, the

 6    preliminary results of the census on the 31st of March, 1991.  The

 7    statistical bulletin, I can provide you with, or I can find the number of

 8    its issue, and if I may add to that, according to my information, this is

 9    the most widely published map of Bosnia-Herzegovina since 1991, to this

10    very day, and if copyrights have at all been respected, I would now be

11    very rich rather than a very poor professor who hasn't received his salary

12    of 500 Euro for third month in a row.

13       Q.   Well, I'm sorry for that, sir.  Maybe Mr. Krsnik can help you with

14    this claim of some sort.

15            The bar graph, the vertical bars -- sorry, Your Honour, it's

16    getting late.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The United Nations are

18    in charge of that, I believe.  There is no pay for justice.

19            MR. SCOTT:

20       Q.   Sir, as I interpret this and I may be absolutely wrong, so assist

21    us, please, within the municipalities, there also appear these vertical

22    coloured bars, again, blue, green and red.  Unless I missed it, I didn't

23    get an interpretation of what do the bars reflect as apart from the colour

24    of the municipality itself?

25       A.   You can see in the keys, if I may say so, if you understand, I

Page 13530

 1    know that it is in my language so it's very difficult for you to

 2    understand it, it may be a problem, the -- this host of squares, I can

 3    see them on my screen, should provide you with an answer to the following

 4    question.

 5       Q.   All right.  Let me just assist you, sir.

 6       A.   These are municipalities with an absolute majority, we are talking

 7    about the three peoples, and an absolute majority can be treated in

 8    different ways.  It is very difficult to establish a statistical threshold

 9    in a map that can give you just the basic outlines.  I have spoken about

10    that in length because I assumed that I may be put some more questions of

11    that sort.

12       Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you but my specific question, I think I

13    can't speak for the rest of the courtroom but I believe I understand the

14    colours of the municipalities and the percentages that are reflected.

15    You're absolutely right there is a legend and down in the lower right

16    corner much that diagram, there is one, the vertical box that has the

17    number 36 in it, but again I apologise for not being able to read

18    Croatian.  My question again is, what specifically is being represented or

19    illustrated by those vertical bars?

20       A.   Only vertical?  Only vertical bars?  Or anything else?

21       Q.   Let me help you, let me take an example.  In Foca, if you can find

22    the municipality of Foca?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Which is down --

25            JUDGE LIU:  I think the image in the ELMO should be on the other

Page 13531

 1    side.  Yes.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, okay.

 3            MR. SCOTT:

 4       Q.   If you can find the municipality of Foca, sir, which is basically

 5    a light green colour, then in that municipality, there is a blue box which

 6    has a number in it.  It appears to have a number at the top of the bar but

 7    at least I can't read that number.  What does that vertical bar

 8    represent?

 9       A.   I wanted to read the number.  However, I can't see it too well.

10    There is a technical deformity here.  That's why I -- my answer is that

11    this municipality has a relative Muslim majority, in which the other

12    people, the second in size, is the Serb people.  The light green is 62 and

13    the column, the vertical bar, gives you the percentage of the Serb

14    population.

15            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Maybe I can help you.  I can read it,

16    it says 44 on that bar.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So that means that the number on the

18    light green is different.  It cannot be 62 either by the colour -- because

19    nothing can go beyond 100 per cent.

20            MR. SCOTT:

21       Q.   I think perhaps you've taken as far as we can but perhaps we will

22    come back do it.  I'm not sure.  Well, you would agree, wouldn't you, that

23    your chart, this 405, would indicate then that, for instance, Jablanica,

24    was a substantially -- substantial Muslim majority municipality?  And

25    again if I can read it, I think it says 72 per cent or

Page 13532

 1    has the number 72.  Konjic has approximately somewhere around 55, 55 per

 2    cent Muslim majority.  Gornji Vakuf has approximately 56 per cent Muslim

 3    majority.  And the municipalities of Mostar and Stolac are reflected as

 4    being mixed Muslim-Croat municipalities.  Is that right?

 5       A.   If you have read the numbers well, then this is correct.

 6       Q.   All right.  Now, in terms of some of the information that the

 7    Chamber will have heard a fair amount of evidence about in the past

 8    months, the predominant areas of red, either completely red or mixtures of

 9    red, if I can put it that way, are in Herzegovina, which is on the

10    Croatian border -- on the Southwest Croatian border, excuse me, southwest

11    border of Bosnia-Herzegovina which runs along the Croatian border which --

12    will are a number of municipalities that are completely red.  That would

13    be the single largest concentration obviously of Croats, of the Croat

14    population in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in 1991, correct?

15       A.   That is correct, but Your Honours, I've already drawn your

16    attention to some possible erroneous conclusions.  If you simply identify

17    a map in this way.  I have it in my hands and I can show it to you.  If

18    you remember, in Kalinovik municipality near Sarajevo that was the example

19    I used.

20       Q.   Well, sir, for present purposes, I'm just simply trying to

21    indicate, just perhaps for more basic purposes for the courtroom, if there

22    are three primary areas, you have the area we just described which is

23    Western Herzegovina.  There is somewhat of a higher concentration of red

24    up at the upper part what might be called the northeast corner of

25    Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that's an area, just so the Chamber can associate

Page 13533

 1    it with a name it may have heard, that was also called the Posavina; is

 2    that correct?

 3       A.   Absolutely correct.

 4       Q.   And then the prime -- the principally mixed area in the middle,

 5    the middle that has diagonal markings a mixture of red and green, is what

 6    we typically refer to it as Central Bosnia; is that right?

 7       A.   Just for the sake of orientation, both the first and the second

 8    and the third were right, but if you think that Western Herzegovina is

 9    west of Medjugorje then it is an artificial division.  Geography does not

10    recognise anything but firm features like a mountain, a river, as division

11    points or division lines between the areas.  And the municipalities, the

12    municipality, very simplified here is very deceiving, because in spatial

13    terms, in area terms a much larger Kalinovik with only 600.000 inhabitants

14    gives a false image with regard to Sarajevo, and if you look at the map,

15    the impression you will receive, that there are much more Serbs in

16    Kalinovik than in Mostar which is a deception, very well known deception.

17    Once again, a map is not a reliable source of that information.

18       Q.   I understand what you're saying, sir, and again, you're just for

19    the moment going beyond the point that I'm just trying to make.  My point

20    is much more basic than that.

21            Now, let me -- let me go away from these charts for a moment to

22    ask you a couple of questions, other questions, about your background.  In

23    the period roughly from 1990 to 1995, sir, were you a member of any

24    political party?

25       A.   Since 1988, I have not been a member of any political party,

Page 13534

 1    either since 1988 or 1989.  And even until then, in the period prior to

 2    these two years, I was a member of a political party but not through my

 3    free will.

 4       Q.   And have you at any time held -- I think you said you were the

 5    assistant deputy mayor of Sarajevo.  If I heard it correctly.  But have

 6    you held any other elected or appointed positions in any sort of

 7    governmental organisation or structure?

 8       A.   It is with pleasure that I mentioned that I was deputy mayor of

 9    the city of Sarajevo, but could you please be more specific?  What period

10    does your question refer to?

11       Q.   All right.  Well I'll use the same period I used before, from

12    approximately 1990 to 1995.  Did you hold any elective or appointive

13    offices during that time, positions during that time?

14       A.   I had a function which was the councillor in the Office of the

15    President of the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and I did it from

16    December, 1993 until approximately March, 1994.  -- furthermore, I was the

17    deputy minister in the government of Herceg-Bosna since September, 1974 --

18    I apologise, not 1974 -- 1994, until December, that is until the Dayton

19    Accords were reached in the same year.

20       Q.   All right.  Well, let me ask you about both of those a bit more,

21    please.  When you say you were a councillor to the President, as of the

22    end of 1993, that was Mate Boban?

23       A.   At that time, yes.

24       Q.   And did he continue to be the President during that approximate

25    four or five month period until March of 1994, or was that about the time

Page 13535

 1    that Mr. Boban was replaced?

 2       A.   I have to tell you about something else.

 3       Q.   Could you answer my question?  Please answer my question first.

 4    I'll give you an opportunity but please answer my question first.  Was

 5    that -- throughout that period was it Mate Boban or was that about the

 6    time that he was being replaced?

 7       A.   I was hospitalised in a hospital in Zagreb, and I couldn't tell

 8    you a lot.  In fact, I learned about it after my surgery, namely that I

 9    was appointed councillor, possibly as an expert participating in the

10    Vance-Owen Plan.  In fact, this was a consequence of my participation in

11    the Vance-Owen Plan which had happened at the beginning of this year.  I

12    apologise but I am a bit tired, sir.

13       Q.   All right.  But -- and who appointed you to that position as

14    councillor to the President?

15       A.   While I was hospitalised, my brother came to visit me and he told

16    me that he read about this somewhere in a newspaper.  I assume that the

17    person who was in charge of that in the office, but how and who, I never

18    asked about.  When I was told this, I thought that those in positions of

19    authority can either send me to the front line or use me as an expert,

20    which would have been much more sensible, and I myself would have done the

21    same.

22       Q.   All right, sir, is it fair to say, just to hopefully cut this

23    short, it was Mate Boban who appointed you to that position?

24       A.   Most probably, yes.

25       Q.   And you also said you held a position of deputy minister in the

Page 13536

 1    government of Herceg-Bosna from approximately September of 1994 to

 2    December, 1995.  When you say deputy minister, are you saying -- when you

 3    say minister, are you talking about being a member of parliament, a

 4    legislative body, or did you have some ministerial function in what we

 5    might call the executive part of the government?

 6       A.   No.  I told you what I was.  I was appointed by Mr. Kresimir

 7    Zubak, most probably because of my participation in the Vienna talks.

 8       Q.   Forgive me when you say deputy minister.  I'm just not sure what

 9    that means?

10         What was the deputy minister, do you mean deputy prime minister?

11       A.   In the government of the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, I was a

12    deputy minister.

13       Q.   Well, in -- and what was your area, the Deputy Minister of the

14    Interior, the Deputy Minister of defence? What were you Deputy Minister

15    of?

16       A.   For international cooperation and cooperation between republics.

17       Q.   Sir, I don't know if you have a copy of your report with you, --

18    in front of you, but if I can have the usher show you possible Exhibit

19    D1/317 which is the report that was filed in this case, D1/317?

20       A.   I have the report in my language.

21       Q.   All right.  Well, that may assist you as well.  Please keep that

22    handy but just for the record, I just want the marked version also to

23    be in front of you, so there is no question about that.

24            You've been now handed, I think I can see from here, D1/317.  Now

25    if you have a Croatian language version available to you, you're certainly

Page 13537

 1    welcome to use it.  But if I can direct your attention to the first page,

 2    sir, the overview, if you will, your background, what might be called at

 3    least in part a CV, do you have that?

 4       A.   Yes, yes, I've got it.  I have it in English.

 5       Q.   Well, let me just -- I don't know, do you read some English, sir?

 6       A.   It would be easier if I had it in my language.

 7       Q.   All right.  Well, let me, perhaps let me just assist you.  I have

 8    just one question about it at this point.  I'm just curious, sir, if you

 9    can assist the Chamber in this way, when you're background was listed and

10    it was listed that you had been a deputy mayor of the city of Sarajevo,

11    did it not occur to you to indicate that you had also held these very

12    senior positions in the government of Herceg-Bosna?

13       A.   Now, I could have written ten pages of my CV, but in my life until

14    the war, I thought that these were matters of interest.  I mentioned here

15    that I participated in the London conference, the Vance-Owen Plan, the

16    Vienna talks.  I chose a few pieces of information.  But that doesn't

17    imply that I did not hold any position in the period until 1994.

18       Q.   Excuse me, sir, let me continue, please.  You chose the

19    information to provide to these Judges and you chose not to provide

20    information that reflected -- that indicated that you held two very senior

21    positions in the government of Herceg-Bosna, correct?

22       A.   On the contrary.  I do not deny these two positions, but I don't

23    think these were that senior positions, given my involvement in the events

24    mentioned before.

25       Q.   All right, sir.

Page 13538

 1       A.   For example, I never attended a single session of the government.

 2       Q.   Sir, when you held these positions, in particular when you were a

 3    councillor to Mate Boban, I'm going back now to the -- excuse me, I'm

 4    going back now to Exhibit 405, the chart with -- the multi-coloured chart

 5    we were looking at a few minutes ago, Exhibit 405, please, D1/405, my

 6    question to you, sir, if you have that, is this:  Based on the additional

 7    background that we now have, do you recall any discussion with Mr. Boban

 8    or other people around him about the issue presented by the fact that

 9    there was either a majority or very substantial Muslim populations in the

10    municipality of Jablanica, Konjic, Gornji Vakuf, Mostar and Stolac, which

11    was all within the boundaries of what was claimed to be Herceg-Bosna?

12       A.   My answer would be no, because at that time, I was undergoing

13    post-surgery treatment of about four months, but what you have referred to

14    as Herceg-Bosna, here I'd like to add an opinion of my own.  Knowing this

15    case, I have noticed that false interpretations have been offered here of

16    the notion of Herceg-Bosna in territorial terms.  In the course of

17    international talks, I came across some maps which could not be considered

18    acceptable under any circumstances.  For example --

19       Q.   Excuse me, I'm not referring to any other maps --

20            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

21            MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Mr. President, can I finish my question

22    first.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Let me hear Defence counsel.  Yes.

24            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

25    allowed to explain?  Because the manner in which this cross-examination is

Page 13539

 1    conducted will not allow us to learn anything from the professor but will

 2    only be offered those answers that the learned friend is asking for.  If a

 3    question was put to the witness, why wouldn't the witness be allowed to

 4    answer?  Questions were raised in connection with the municipalities of

 5    Jablanica, Konjic, Gornji Vakuf, et cetera, in terms of the ethnic

 6    structure.  Would the witness please be allowed to answer?

 7            MR. SCOTT:  I'd like to respond, Mr. President.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think we have limited time at our

 9    disposal.  We only want to hear what we are interested in.  I believe this

10    witness has answered that question by the first few sentences of his

11    answer.

12            Yes, Mr. Scott, you may proceed.

13            MR. SCOTT:

14       Q.   All right, sir.  If -- sorry, I'm trying to ask this question in a

15    way that will not be -- belabour it.  You were appointed this position

16    with Mate Boban as his councillor, and did you not know it to be an issue,

17    not only among Mr. Boban but among the senior Bosnian Croat leadership,

18    certainly the circles he moved in, and apparently at least to some extent

19    that you moved in, that it was a problem to establish a consolidated area

20    of contiguous borders for Herceg-Bosna when you had these substantial

21    Muslim areas inside them?  Wasn't that something that was discussed?

22       A.   First and foremost, I'd like to draw the attention of the Trial

23    Chamber to the fact that I am not Bosnian Croat.  I am a Croat from

24    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Furthermore, I wish to emphasise the fact that it was

25    in the hospital that I learned about my appointment to this position, and

Page 13540

 1    during my post-operative care, which lasted for almost the rest of 1994,

 2    there simply was no opportunity and time for me to be involved in these

 3    issues that the Prosecutor has been referring to.  There are documents to

 4    that effect.

 5       Q.   Sir, in terms of the -- some of the demographic information that

 6    you told us, what's happened in the country of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you

 7    tended to focus, if I heard you correctly, among other things, on two

 8    primary -- two principal phenomena.  The fact is apparently, if I don't

 9    use exactly your words forgive me, but that the birth rate of Muslims was

10    much higher than the Croats and that the Croat, the rate of Croat

11    immigration, that is emigration out of the country, was substantially

12    higher, resulting in the fact that as the Muslim population became larger,

13    the Croat population was becoming smaller.  Is that correct?

14       A.   With the full appreciation of your erroneous notions, the gist of

15    it is correct.

16       Q.   I'll accept the gist.  Based on that, sir, is it change -- this

17    situation, is it your recommendation, or would it be your policy

18    suggestion, that Croats should be prohibited from emigrating and Muslims

19    should be limited in the number of children they can have?

20       A.   When talking about such complex states as is Bosnia-Herzegovina, I

21    would like to draw your attention to the fact that the notion of policy

22    can also be found in demography, in terms of population policy.  In other

23    words, I was not involved in policies here but if this were the interest

24    of my state, which has to be heeded, I'd prefer to develop a study which

25    would answer the question how to maintain the ethnic balance in such a

Page 13541

 1    complex country.  I therefore reject the very notion of my political

 2    involvement.  I was participating in this only as a professional and

 3    Bosnia-Herzegovina can't have too many professionals, including those

 4    covering my area of activity.

 5       Q.   All right, sir, but if I read your report correctly, and I've

 6    listened to your testimony today, it appears to be -- and counsel can ask

 7    other questions, the Judges can ask their questions, of their

 8    understanding of what you're saying but my understanding is again, two of

 9    the principal factors in these demographic shifts are a higher Muslim

10    birth rate and much higher rate of Croat emigration.  Sir, neither of

11    those factors are related to what we might call war crimes, were they or

12    are they?

13       A.   Yes.  You have understood it well.  But I'd like to offer my

14    personal comment.  In statistical terms, that's true, but demography and

15    statistics are not serving their own purpose only.

16       Q.   Now, just so the record is clear, Mr. President, it will be my

17    last question for the evening.  You've made several references to being

18    involved in the peace processes under the patronage of the UN.  Just so

19    there is no misunderstanding, sir, you're not suggesting that you were

20    employed by or part of the United Nations, are you?

21       A.   No.  Under no circumstances.  I can only say that I received the

22    UN grant and I spent this UN grant programme in Moscow, in 1980, focusing

23    upon the study of population and development.

24       Q.   All right, sir.  I was talking about the times you told us you

25    were involved in the peace processes and the truth of the matter is, sir,

Page 13542

 1    and it's nothing necessarily wrong with that but you were part of the

 2    Croat delegation, correct?

 3       A.   I was part of Bosnia Herzegovinian and Croatian delegation.  In

 4    the course of the peace talks.  In my CV I mentioned it and I also orally

 5    repeated those involvements which I considered to be the most important

 6    ones.

 7            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I'll stop there for the evening.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Well, Witness, yes, Mr. Krsnik?

 9            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one second of your

10    time, if I may, once the witness has left the trial -- the courtroom.  I

11    need with your attention for just a second after that.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Witness, I'm sorry that we could not finish your

13    testimony today.  We have to keep you here for another day at least.  So

14    you have to remember that you are still under the oath.  So do not talk to

15    anybody about your testimony today and do not let anybody talk to you

16    about it.  You understand that?  Thank you very much.  The usher will show

17    you out of the room.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely understood, sir.  Thank

19    you very much.

20                          [The witness stands down]

21            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?  We will see how long a second is.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] A second.  Could we go into private

23    session, please?

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

25                          [Private session]

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 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 8                          7.07 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

 9                          the 4th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.