Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13890

 1                          Thursday, 18 July 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 7    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Well, before we have the witness, there is some

 9    schedule matters I would like to announce.

10            Tomorrow, we will have our sittings in Courtroom II at 2.15, and

11    on Friday next week, because of the problem of scheduling, we will have no

12    sitting on Friday next week.

13            It is our intention to finish the testimony of the next witness

14    today, at the request of the Defence counsel because of the protective

15    measures.  So as for the next witness, we would like to ask the Defence

16    counsel to limit his direct examination to one hour, and we also give the

17    same amount of time to the cross-examination so as to ensure that we will

18    finish the next witness today.

19            Having said that, Mr. Usher, could we have the witness, please?

20            Yes, Mr. Seric?

21            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

22    Good afternoon.  I will be very brief.  While we are waiting for the

23    witness, you must have read my thoughts when you said what you did.  The

24    Defence, and I have to say it for the record, Mr. Vinko Martinovic's

25    Defence, Mr. Par and I, have never, not once, exceeded more than 50 per

Page 13891

 1    cent of the time of the Prosecution's direct examination.  Neither

 2    yesterday, nor shall we in the future, exceed the time in our direct

 3    examination that we have announced.  We were always very disciplined and

 4    we have always complied with the schedule and the timetable.  We have

 5    witnesses here whom we planned to hear until the end of this week.  So

 6    Mr. President, will you please warn the Prosecutor not to waste time?  The

 7    witness is not to blame if he doesn't understand the question.  The

 8    question is made understandable by the Prosecution.  The Prosecutor says

 9    we've spent 20 minutes dealing with a matter.  Now is this the witness's

10    responsibility for the Prosecutor's?  Let us have Prosecutors phrase the

11    questions in a manner that will allow to use the time as best we can

12    rather than waste it, and I hope that you will proceed, Mr. President,

13    with the measures that you have announced at the beginning because it is

14    the Prosecution which wastes time.  The Defence has never exceeded the

15    time allotted to it, either through the cross-examination or during the

16    direct examination, and I object very seriously because the Prosecutor was

17    allowed to do it yesterday, before -- earlier, and we are afraid he will

18    also try to do that in the future.  But that is not the responsibility of

19    Defence and we do not have to cut anything short.

20            After this witness, we shall have another witness who will be here

21    today only.  And whose direct examination will take less than 60 minutes.

22    He has to leave tomorrow so I hope you will stand by your decision that

23    the cross-examination should not exceed that time.

24            As for this witness, Mr. Martinovic, even the Prosecutor alleges

25    that his evidence is not of much value because he is the accused's

Page 13892

 1    brother.  Then why doesn't he give up the cross-examination?  However, the

 2    witness is under oath and I must say that ubi lex non distinguit, nec nos

 3    distinguere debemus, that is, where law doesn't distinguish, we should not

 4    make it either, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Seric, first of all, I have to thank you for

 6    your cooperation about your direct examination.  Secondly, since we have

 7    the witness here, we are not going to discuss about any detailed matters.

 8                          [The witness entered court]

 9                          WITNESS:   JADRANKO MARTINOVIC [Resumed]

10                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

11            JUDGE LIU:  Good afternoon, Witness.  We won't keep you long this

12    afternoon, are you ready to start?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]

14            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness nods.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott.

16                          Cross-examined by Mr. Scott: [Continued]

17       Q.   Sir, before we continue on, I wanted to ask you about a similar

18    name, name similar to one I asked you about yesterday and I want to make

19    it clear I'm not suggesting that the other person, that there is confusion

20    about the other person.  I'm asking about another person but perhaps

21    having a similar name.  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 13893

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10                          [Private session]

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Page 13894













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Page 13895

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 6                          [Open session]

 7            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Scott, should the witness answer the question

 8    first?

 9            MR. SCOTT:  I'd be happy for him to Judge Clark, and I was just

10    responding to counsel's objection but I'm happy to have the witness not

11    review the document until he first gives an answer.

12       Q.   Witness I would ask you not to review -- it's in English in any

13    event.  You perhaps read English but would you not look at that document

14    for a moment, in light of the question raised by Judge Clark?  I put to

15    you a question and really we didn't get an answer.  So can you please tell

16    us if you were aware of any allegation or information about your brother

17    running one or more "private prisons"?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did anyone from the international community ever approach you for

20    information whether your brother was engaged in such activity?

21       A.   Me personally?

22       Q.   Yes.

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   It continues to be your testimony, I take it, sir, since yesterday

25    that at no time was your brother holding prisoners in a garage in West

Page 13896

 1    Mostar?

 2       A.   Sir, of course I'm slightly jittery and a little bit tired after

 3    all this.  Last night, when I returned to the hotel, and I suppose like

 4    any other witness who comes here, I turned the film back just trying to

 5    recapitulate to see how it went.  Yesterday, you and I on two occasions,

 6    if I may put it in this way, talked at cross-purposes, say. One was about

 7    the year 1992, June, and the second one was your insistence on a garage.

 8    I still say today that there was no garage.  However, you are right in one

 9    thing.  Next to the building where Vinko's base, that is command, was,

10    there was a workshop, a car mechanics, a car repair shop. Now, if you call

11    a car shop a garage, perhaps it's funny to you, but it's not funny to me,

12    because garage is used to park cars and a workshop is used to repair cars.

13    There is a difference between the two in the workshop you will find the

14    bay over which cars are driven and you do not find this thing in a garage.

15    So I am sorry but that is how it is.

16       Q.   Sir, I appreciate very much that clarification.  Did it really not

17    occur to you at any time yesterday that the questions I was asking you

18    would include some place where cars were worked on and in fact didn't I

19    ask you about whether any of the prisoners worked on vehicles for your

20    brother's unit?

21       A.   Yes, sir.  I also said that there were people who worked on cars,

22    but you insisted on the word "garage."  And I have a garage at home.

23    Doors open, vehicles in, and that is all.  So I'm sorry, again, but I

24    suppose we simply did not understand one another.

25       Q.   So can we take it, can the Judges understand, then, sir, that in

Page 13897

 1    reference to all the questions yesterday about a garage being immediately

 2    adjacent to your brother's headquarters, if I change the term and say a

 3    workshop where cars were worked on, then all your answers would change

 4    from no to yes?  Is that correct?

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric?

 6            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I object to this question,

 7    Mr. President, namely to ask a question in such a laconic manner and

 8    expect such a laconic answer without repeating the substance of

 9    yesterday's questions, I think would mean setting the witness up.

10            JUDGE LIU:  I agree with you.

11            MR. SCOTT:  I'll move on and I submit for the record that the

12    result is clear, that if the witness has already said that indeed there

13    was a workshop where cars were worked on next to the headquarters.

14       Q.   Sir, is it correct that you also just mentioned that there was

15    some sort of a bay or a pit in that garage, for instance, where one would

16    drive a car over and someone would work in such a pit?  Under a car or a

17    vehicle?

18       A.   That's right, a garage that you mention, that is the workshop

19    which includes a pit, yes, correct.

20            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, in light of the questions or excuse me

21    the answers of the witness, I will move on from 751 but nonetheless in

22    response to counsel's questions, that is the basis for my putting the

23    questions.

24       Q.   Sir, can you tell us how you're currently employed?

25       A.   Currently, I am involved in the construction in the town of

Page 13898

 1    Mostar, that is I'm building a residential house.

 2       Q.   Did you ever have a financial or other ownership interest in a

 3    company or business called Euroherc?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   What kind of a business was that?

 6       A.   It's an insurance company.

 7       Q.   Where is -- any one in the family of a man named Ivica Licic also

 8    a co-owner or participant in that same business?

 9       A.   Not the family, one of the brothers of the gentleman you

10    mentioned, yes.

11       Q.   Which brother was that, please?

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric?

13            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there unfortunately

14    it's really not my habit to stand, to be on my feet all the time but I

15    object to these questions.  Why is that relevant?  What is the relevance

16    either to this case or challenging -- to challenge the credibility of the

17    witness?

18            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I think the Prosecutor is entitled to challenge

19    the credibility of this witness.  You may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.

20            MR. SCOTT:

21       Q.   What was the name of this brother of Ivica Lucic?

22       A.   Milan.

23       Q.   And the brother Ivica Lucic, is this the same Ivica Lucic who

24    was the head of one of the Bosnian Croat intelligence services?

25       A.   As far as I know, from the press, that is correct.

Page 13899

 1       Q.   And have you ever had any perhaps not Euroherc but any other

 2    financial or business dealings with Ivica Lucic, the former head of

 3    Bosnian Croat intelligence?

 4       A.   I've never met that gentleman in my life.

 5       Q.   Was Mr. Bruno Stojic or his family also a co-owner or a

 6    participant in the Euroherc business, the former Minister of Defence of

 7    Herceg-Bosna?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And have you had any other business interest with Mr. Stojic other

10    than Euroherc?

11       A.   I never said that I had any business interests with Mr. Bruno

12    Stojic.  In other words, Mr. Bruno Stojic did not have any interest in the

13    Euroherc company.

14       Q.   Well, when I asked you a moment ago, and perhaps you may be

15    rights, perhaps it was someone in his family but when I asked you this

16    question and I'll simply read it to you again:  Was Mr. Bruno Stojic or

17    his family also a co-owner or participant in it should say Euroherc

18    business and your answer at line 9 was yes.  So in what way, sir, did you

19    indicate yes?

20       A.   You -- there were two questions in one.  When I said yes, I meant

21    somebody -- a member of his family.  So you want me to repeat, yes, a

22    member of his family, his eldest brother.

23       Q.   And what is his name, please?

24       A.   Mate, if -- but I stand to be corrected.

25       Q.   Sir, you've talked on a number of occasions about essentially a

Page 13900

 1    conspiracy against your brother or efforts to blame him or sacrifice him,

 2    I believe you've said.  Have you ever heard that a man -- two men that

 3    named Marko Radic and Ivan Hrkac, as two men that your brother has blamed

 4    for charges being brought against him?

 5       A.   To avoid once again a similar situation as a moments before

 6    because you asked me two questions in one, I've heard of these two persons

 7    but whether Vinko is accusing them of something, I do not know.  So, yes,

 8    I've heard of Marko Radic, no, I even know him personally.  I believe we

 9    were school fellows.  I've heard Ivan Hrkac's name but I've never seen

10    him.

11       Q.   Did you ever know your brother to assert that it was partly

12    Mr. Naletilic's, Tuta's, fault that he had been charged?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   All right.  If I could direct your attention, sir, with the

15    usher's assistance to Exhibit P851.02?

16            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric?

17            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I would

18    like to know the Defence would like to know the source of this document.

19    That is the first thing.  Where did this document come from?  I see what

20    it says here but that is impossible.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Scott, if you could.

22            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I'll be happy to have discussions about

23    the authenticity its of a document outside the presence of the witness.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We will deal with this issue when we are

25    admitting the documents.

Page 13901

 1            MR. SCOTT:

 2       Q.   Sir, I'll just read one --

 3            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

 5            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if a document is given

 6    to the witness, then to be fair, the Defence needs to know the source of

 7    this document.  If we want to exclude the witness, why don't we send him

 8    out for a while?  But this is also something new.  We have never before

 9    sent a witness out of the room while we were discussing an exhibit, but

10    one cannot ask this witness a question if we don't know the source.  This

11    is a handwritten document, so many things are crossed over on it, we don't

12    know the source.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric?

14            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] It is not just the source but also the

15    legality, the way the document has been obtained, if we can consider this

16    a document or exhibit at all.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Krsnik and Mr. Seric, as for this document, I

18    believe, in the -- in the bundle of documents the Prosecutor has indicated

19    the source of that document.  And during the cross-examination, the

20    Prosecution could ask questions about this document, and the witness has

21    the full right to confirm or deny anything in this document, and when we

22    are admitting this document into the evidence, we will look into the

23    source, the authenticity of that document.

24            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the source is not

25    correct.

Page 13902

 1                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric?

 3            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I assert, Your Honours, that the

 4    source is not correct.  The Prosecutor knows it.  And he still writes that

 5    the source is Vinko Martinovic.  This is not correct.  This is simply not

 6    correct, from the very beginning.  If something is founded on the wrong

 7    foundations, we cannot proceed.  We cannot move on.

 8            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

 9            JUDGE LIU:  I'm not going to any longer debate.

10            Well, Witness, could I ask you to leave this room for a little

11    while?  We are discuss a document which has nothing to do with you.  It's

12    a legal issue.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

14            JUDGE LIU:  In five minutes.

15                          [The witness stands down]

16            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott?  With the absence of the witness, you

17    may shed some light on this issue.

18            MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.  The source of this document is that

19    it was when Mr. Martinovic came into the custody of this Tribunal, he had

20    a brief case with him which was taken and the material there in collected

21    and inventoried by the Registrar.  And at that time, the Registrar gave to

22    the Office of the Prosecutor the contents of that brief case, after having

23    inventoried it.  And that's where this document comes from.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Is that a satisfactory answer?  Yes, Mr. Seric?

25            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I am astonished.  I can't tell you

Page 13903

 1    whether I'm satisfied or not satisfied with this answer.  Does this mean

 2    stolen or later on inserted in the file?  What is this all about?  I'm

 3    really deeply shocked.  This is not an explanation of the source.  The

 4    document is then stolen, if this explanation is correct.  A file has been

 5    taken away from somebody and something was found inside.  Is there any

 6    confirmation of that?  Was Mr. Martinovic aware that his room was

 7    searched, that the documents were taken, from the very first day, this

 8    gentleman has been exposed to -- I don't dare say what.  This is illegal

 9    treatment of my client, from the very first day.  This is a shame, Your

10    Honours.

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to share

12    the astonishment and I would like to -- the person from the registry to be

13    examined.  If this is true, we cannot use the document until we examine

14    the authenticity of this allegation by the Prosecution.  For the registry

15    to engage in such dealings together with the Prosecutor is really shameful

16    and this is an understatement.

17            JUDGE CLARK:  Gentlemen, can I just say something for a moment?

18    We are not talking about the contents of the document.  We are talking

19    about how the document came to be in the hands of the Prosecution, and

20    let's concentrate on that aspect of the case.  I think the Judges really

21    want to consult about this for a little while.

22                          [Trial Chamber confers]

23            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Scott, do you have anything to add about the

24    source of this document?

25            MR. SCOTT:  No, Your Honour, not really.  We could call -- I

Page 13904

 1    mean -- we could call a representative of the Registrar if that becomes

 2    necessary but I've told the Chamber as directly as I could, whether asked,

 3    what the source of the document was, and that's my information.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Well, if this is the case, I'm afraid that after

 5    consultation among the Judges, this document should not be used in this

 6    courtroom until you have further information about the source of this

 7    document.

 8            MR. SCOTT:  Very well, Your Honour.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Seric?

10            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  Thank you

11    for your ruling, but I must say that it says here that this is a new

12    document.  We should have received it at the same time the Prosecutor

13    received it.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Well, if this document will not be tendered or

15    admitted into the evidence, we will return this document to the

16    Registrar.

17            Could we have the witness, please?

18                          [The witness entered court]

19            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Witness, I'm sorry for you to have to wait for

20    so long.  Would you please sit down and we will continue.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Scott.  You may move on.

23            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24       Q.   Sir, just to follow up on the last question before moving on, just

25    so the record is clear in light of the some of the intervention that were

Page 13905












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Page 13906

 1    made, did you ever have any conversation with your brother about any role

 2    that allegedly Mr. Naletilic may have played in him being charged?

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric?

 4            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Maybe the role is different between

 5    the Defence counsel and the Prosecutor but when I asked similar questions,

 6    and when my learned friend objected, you asked me to skip the question and

 7    I would skip it.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 8            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I'm not going into any document.  I'm

 9    simply clarifying the last answer put by the witness before all this

10    happened and it's a question he can answer either yes or no he doesn't

11    know.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Witness, you may answer that question.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really do not remember the

14    question, Your Honours.  Can the Prosecutor please repeat that question?

15            MR. SCOTT:

16       Q.   Sir, did you ever have any conversation with your brother about

17    any role that allegedly Mr. Naletilic may have played in your brother

18    being charged?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   All right.  Did you ever know, during the war in 1993, a man named

21    Predrag Mandic?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Did you know a man named Mario Milicevic?

24       A.   I believe there are two men with the same name but I believe that

25    I did.

Page 13907

 1       Q.   Well, did you know a Mario Milicevic that was the head of another

 2    unit that was referred to as an ATG?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   How did you know him?

 5       A.   Mario Milicevic lives in my neighbourhood in which I used to live

 6    and in which Vinko used to live.  That's where I know him.  I know who

 7    you're talking about.  I know the person.

 8       Q.   Was he the commander of something called the Vinko Penavic ATG?

 9       A.   Possible.

10       Q.   It's been pointed out to me, Mr. President, just so there is no

11    confusion it's been translated Vinko probably perhaps I misspoke.  It

12    should be Benko Penavic.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric?

14            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a little while ago, we

15    heard the Prosecutor asking the witness to list the names of the co-owners

16    or the families of the co-owners of the company that the witness owned.

17    This has led us no where.  Now, again, he is asking the witness to list

18    the names which were not mentioned on direct, and I'm afraid this, again,

19    is not going to lead anywhere.  This is just a waste of time, I'm afraid.

20    Thank you very much.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Let's hope for the best, Mr. Seric.

22            MR. SCOTT:

23       Q.   Sir, was he the commander of the Benko Penavic unit?

24       A.   Sir, I would like to say something before I answer your question.

25    Whether you call it Vinko or Benko or whether you believe it or not,

Page 13908

 1    believe me this doesn't mean a thing to me.  These first names, these last

 2    names were in such an abundance and they were mentioned so often, and I

 3    never took any interest in those names.  If you say Benko Penavic, let me

 4    answer be yes, but it really doesn't mean anything to me.

 5       Q.   I think you said yesterday, sir, that you considered that at least

 6    this man that you've mentioned Ernest Takac may have considered himself a

 7    deputy of your brother's unit or did you believe he was a deputy of your

 8    brother's unit?

 9       A.   I don't think I said that.  I wish somebody could read to me what

10    I said, because I don't think that is what I said, and I can really not

11    repeat exactly what I said, and I asked you yesterday not to ask from me

12    to repeat literally what I said.  You are asking me a lot of questions.

13    You are trying to confuse me.  You have these things on paper.  I have

14    nothing on paper.  And I can really not repeat exactly what I said

15    yesterday.  In any event, the way you put it to me, I am certain that that

16    is not what I said yesterday.

17       Q.   All right, sir, I'm not going to ask to you use the exact words

18    that you've used previously but just then if that's the case, tell us

19    again in your own or different words what role did you understand, if any,

20    did Mr. Takac play in the Vinko Skrobo unit?

21       A.   Yesterday, when you asked me, I believe you asked me who Vinko

22    Martinovic's deputies were in his unit, and I believe that I said the

23    following, that it could have been somebody called Peric, somebody whose

24    last name was Jakovljevic and I don't know what else I said. When you

25    asked me about Takac, Takac was half savage, somebody who was not easily

Page 13909

 1    commanded and I assume that he could not have been a commander.  I believe

 2    he would have been only too happy to be a commander but he could not be a

 3    commander because he was too rowdy, too wild.

 4       Q.   I believe you said he was disobedient.  My question is disobedient

 5    to who?

 6       A.   If I said that he was disobedient, I suppose that he was

 7    disobedient to somebody who issued him orders, and if somebody is a wild,

 8    rowdy and savage, then he doesn't obey anybody.  If you want to ask me

 9    whether he was disobedient to Vinko, then I assume he was also disobedient

10    to Vinko.

11       Q.   And you said that at some point your brother, Mr. Takac had some

12    falling out in so many words and your brother essentially said good

13    riddance to him.  Is that your testimony?

14       A.   I don't think you will find that in the transcript.

15       Q.   So your brother and Mr. Takac did not have a falling out then and

16    they remained together throughout the war?

17       A.   I didn't say that, but a little while ago you said something that

18    I haven't said so far, and I also didn't say that they stayed together.

19    Please ask me specific questions and believe me, I shall answer them, if I

20    can.

21       Q.   Did a time ever come when the relationship between your brother

22    and Mr. Takac changed?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   What do you say happened?

25       A.   What exactly happened, I don't know but I know that Takac with a

Page 13910

 1    few other men left the unit.

 2       Q.   Can you tell us approximately when that was, sir?

 3       A.   I can't.

 4       Q.   If I could ask the witness to be shown Exhibit 634?  Sir, this is

 5    a document that's previously been admitted into evidence, of a statement

 6    from the man Ernest Takac, and in fact, you will see, if you have a chance

 7    to look at it, it relates to the same event that the statement that we

 8    looked at yesterday with your brother, which is Exhibit 633, and according

 9    to both Mr. Takac's statement, Exhibit P634 and your brother's statement,

10    P633, can you not agree with me, sir, that at least as of October, 1993,

11    your brother and Mr. Takac were still working quite closely together?

12       A.   If the dates are identical on both documents, on the one you

13    showed me yesterday and the one you're showing me today, then this should

14    be correct.  And as to how close they were, I can't tell you that just

15    looking at these documents.

16       Q.   Sir, isn't it correct that your brother and Mr. Takac continued to

17    be members of the same units even after they both left the Vinko Skrobo

18    unit?

19       A.   Excuse me?  I beg your pardon?

20       Q.   Isn't it true, sir, that contrary to the fact -- contrary to

21    having any sort of falling out, at least in 1993, your brother Stela and

22    Mr. Takac continued to be members of the same units, HVO units, together,

23    even after the Vinko Skrobo unit, correct?

24       A.   If Vinko Skrobo is a unit, Vinko's unit, with which he was on the

25    Bulevar, by the health centre and which -- with which he was fighting

Page 13911

 1    against Muslims, after that unit, as far as I know, Vinko was no longer a

 2    soldier of any other unit.  I may allow that I don't know, but I would say

 3    that he was not a member of any other unit after that unit, and as for

 4    Takac, I really wouldn't be able to tell you whether he was a member of

 5    any other unit or not.

 6            MR. SCOTT:  Could the witness please be shown Exhibits 819 and

 7    818?

 8       Q.   Directing your attention first of all to 819, do you recall,

 9    sir --

10       A.   I can see that.

11       Q.   -- That your brother, Stela, Vinko Martinovic, Mr. Pehar,

12    Mr. Takac were indicated to have continued for sometime, for approximately

13    a four month period to be members of something called the ATJ Domovina?

14    From June to October, 1994?

15       A.   This is the first time I hear of the existence of the ATJ

16    Domovina, the first time ever.

17       Q.   Have you ever heard of something called the 22nd Sabotage

18    Detachment?

19       A.   You are already very far when you're talking about 22nd, 27th

20    Sabotage.  This is not my turf.  I can say no.

21       Q.   Sir, can you look at Exhibit 818?  Doesn't that indicate that

22    again your brother, Mr. Pehar, Mr. Takac continued together to be members

23    of that unit even into 1995?

24       A.   I do not dispute that these names are indeed here.  But once

25    again, I repeat -- can I please have the other one, Mr. Usher?  I have two

Page 13912

 1    documents in front of me, and the same five names on both of them, and on

 2    one it says ATJ Domovina and on the other, the 22nd Sabotage Detachment.

 3    That seems to be a lot of armies, too many armies.

 4       Q.   Sir, can you tell the Judges, please, have either your father,

 5    Ivan Martinovic or yourself, sir, ever been involved in contacting either

 6    witnesses for the Prosecution or witnesses to assist your brother?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Can you describe those activities to us, please?

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Seric?

10            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question was

11    setting up the witness and we heard the positive answer.  Can, please, the

12    Prosecutor split the question in order not to confuse the witness?  Can he

13    be precise and tell exactly which witnesses he is referring to in his

14    question?

15            JUDGE LIU:  Well, that's very difficult for the Prosecution to do

16    so.  I think, you know, the witness heard your objection, and he will give

17    us an explanation about that.

18            Yes, Witness, you may answer that question.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am here in The Hague with four

20    other witnesses.

21            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we go to private

22    session, please?

23            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

24            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] That's all.

25            JUDGE LIU:  We will go to the private session.

Page 13913

 1                          [Private session]












13  Page 13913 – redacted – private session













Page 13914

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14                          [Open session]

15            MR. SCOTT:

16       Q.   Sir, due or your father know a man named Mustafa Sukelic?

17       A.   I do.

18       Q.   And have you ever approached Mr. Sukelic about being a witness in

19    this case?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Has your father, to your knowledge, ever approached Mr. Sukelic

22    about either being or not being a witness in this case?

23       A.   As far as I know, and that was your question, no.

24       Q.   And I'll ask you my final two questions, similar questions, about

25    this man that you've mentioned in your testimony already, Halil Ajanic.

Page 13915

 1    Have you or your father ever contacted Mr. Ajanic about either being or

 2    not being a witness in this case?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   And have you or your father ever moved about Mostar looking and

 5    asking people, trying to find Mr. Ajanic?

 6       A.   Never.

 7            MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have no further

 8    questions.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, any re-examination, Mr. Seric?

10            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Only two, Your Honours.

11                          Re-examined by Mr. Seric:

12            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the

13    witness Exhibit 633 and 18 -- and 818?  Excuse me, in Croatian.

14       Q.   Will you please look at the first -- at the Croatian version of

15    633?  Croatian version.  And look at the signature.  You said that it was

16    very similar and that you granted that it could be your brother's

17    signature.  Now, look at Exhibit 818, and tell us if it is your brother's

18    signature in both these documents?  Under one, of course.

19       A.   I suppose everybody can see no, that it is far from it.

20       Q.   Say yes or no, let us finish that?

21       A.   If I said about there one that it is possible, about this I think

22    that it is not possible.

23            MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.  I

24    have no further questions.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Any questions from Judges?  Judge Clark.

Page 13916

 1                          Questioned by the Court:

 2            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Martinovic, I just have one question for you and

 3    I know you've been here an exceptionally long time so I won't hold you.  I

 4    may not have it in front of you but the map that you had, P11.018, yes,

 5    very good, I just want to ask you a question on that map.  No, it doesn't

 6    need to be in private session but I just want to you look at the map.  You

 7    don't have to put it on the ELMO.  Obviously, I'm not good at maps.  If I

 8    were I probably wouldn't need to ask this question.  But you told us, I

 9    think it was yesterday, that on the morning of the 9th of May, you and a

10    companion were driving from, the transcript said Ahmici but I doubt that

11    that's correct, is it?

12       A.   Absolutely incorrect.  I could not have said that.  Absolutely

13    wrong.  I am sorry, I must have said all sorts of things during these past

14    two days but that is one thing that I'm sure I did not.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  I didn't think.  It was probably something that

16    sounded like it but on the map you said it was the direction you came from

17    was the west side of Mostar.  Is that correct?

18       A.   It is, it is.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  What would be -- looking at the map, you don't need

20    to put it on the ELMO, do you see that there are a number of towns marked

21    as directions, like Rastani over to the north and Citluk and Medjugorje to

22    the south, and the west -- the only road that's marked on the west is

23    Siroki Brijeg.  Is that the direction that you came from?

24       A.   To you, and don't hold it against me, when we look at Mostar,

25    west is also the direction of Citluk and Medjugorje and Siroki Brijeg, but

Page 13917

 1    I did come from the direction of Siroki Brijeg.

 2            JUDGE CLARK:  That's all I wanted to know because I was intrigued

 3    about the Ahmici mention.  I'm sure it was a misinterpretation.  Thank you

 4    very much.  And we are much obliged to you for coming here.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Any questions out of Judges' questions?  It seems

 6    not.

 7            Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming here to give your

 8    evidence.  Sometimes we discuss some legal issues which have nothing to do

 9    with you so don't mind about that.  We all wish you good luck in your

10    future.  The usher will show you out of the room.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and if I made

12    any mistakes, it wasn't deliberate.

13            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as the witness is being

14    taken out and before our next witness comes here, could we go into private

15    session for a moment?

16                          [The witness withdrew]

17            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Even at the cost of cutting shorter my

18    direct examination, I need to address the Court now.

19            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We will go to the private session.  But before

20    that, before that, I would like to know whether there is any document to

21    tender through this witness?  I understand that the street map of Mostar

22    that is P11.18 was marked by the witness himself.  I don't see there is

23    any objections.  So this document is admitted into the evidence.  How

24    about others?  Mr. Scott do you have any other documents to tender?

25            MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, I would ask if we could follow the more

Page 13918

 1    or less normal procedure that I would prepare a written submission of the

 2    documents that we used, please.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, of course, but don't be too late.

 4            MR. SCOTT:  If I could -- well, maybe.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  If you could get some more information about that

 6    document, we would like to have it.

 7            MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Mr. President.  Yes.  I think in light of that in

 8    particular, I'll have to make a submission in any event to the Chamber

 9    will allow me, please, I'll make one -- a single submission.  I just

10    thought I would make the comment just because of Judge Clark's concerns

11    about Ahmici, I heard the same thing and it was in the transcript but when

12    I came back to and asked the questions about where the family was and he

13    said it was Split and I assumed the earlier statement must have been a

14    mistake but thank you, Judge.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go to -- yes, we will go to the private

16    session.

17                          [Private session]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 13919













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Page 13920













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Page 13921












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13   English transcripts.













Page 13922













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Page 13923

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 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9                          [Open session]

10                          --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

11                          --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Could we go into the closed session, please?

13                          [Closed session]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25  [redacted]

Page 13924













13  Pages 13924-13959 – redacted – closed session













Page 13960

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13                          [Open session]

14                          [The witness entered court]

15            JUDGE LIU:  Good afternoon, Witness.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17            JUDGE LIU:  Would you please make the solemn declaration, please?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                          WITNESS:   WITNESS MB

21                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

22            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  You may sit down, please.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Par?

25            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13961

 1                          Examined by Mr. Par:

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good day to you.

 3       A.   Good day.

 4       Q.   Could the ELMO be lowered a little so that I can have eye contact

 5    with the witness?

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Par, I believe that after your question, you

 7    have to turn off your microphone.

 8            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   Witness, before we begin, I wish to inform you that the Chamber

10    has approved protective measures which consist of the protection of your

11    name, voice and image, so that it will not be possible to identify you,

12    and those parts of our conversation which contain information according to

13    which you might be identified, will be in closed session.  During your

14    testimony, please be careful not to mention your name or your nickname or

15    anything by which you might be identified.  Before we begin, please look

16    at this piece of paper.  It should contain your name.  If that is your

17    name, please say yes.

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Thank you.  I will try to speak slowly in order to make it easier

20    for the interpreters.  Please watch the red light on my microphone and

21    when it is turned off, then you can begin answering.  And I will indicate

22    to you with my hand whether you should speak faster or slower.

23       A.   Very well.

24       Q.   We will now proceed and for the first set of questions, I ask to

25    go into private session because these are questions by which the witness

Page 13962

 1    might be identified?

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

 3                          [Private session]

 4   [redacted]

 5   [redacted]

 6   [redacted]

 7   [redacted]

 8   [redacted]

 9   [redacted]

10   [redacted]

11   [redacted]

12   [redacted]

13   [redacted]

14   [redacted]

15   [redacted]

16   [redacted]

17   [redacted]

18   [redacted]

19   [redacted]

20   [redacted]

21   [redacted]

22   [redacted]

23   [redacted]

24   [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 13963













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Page 13964













13  Page 13964 – redacted – private session













Page 13965

 1  [redacted]

 2  [redacted]

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 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10                          [Open session]

11            MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   In our conversation, we shall start from the time when the

13    conflict with the Serbs broke out, from the answers that you gave us so

14    far, I understood this is where you were living with your whole family.

15    Can you tell us briefly how did you and your family see that conflict

16    between -- with the Serbs?  Can you tell us what was your family

17    characteristic of, how did you act at the time, what did you do?  How did

18    you manage?

19       A.   Well, during the war with the Serbs, I continued living where I've

20    already pointed out, and I saw it like all my neighbours.  To my mind it

21    was an aggression, an aggression in which we had to organise ourselves, to

22    defend ourselves, to protect our families, and the property we had

23    acquired.

24       Q.   Did anything special happen?  Did -- were there any casualties?

25    Did anything happen to any of your members of the family?

Page 13966

 1       A.   Well, yes, the city was exposed to the shelling all the time and

 2    yes, there were casualties, there were casualties.

 3       Q.   I mean your family.  How did you fare?

 4       A.   As for the family that was with me, we were all unscathed except

 5    that my father was killed, but he did not live with me.  He lived outside

 6    Mostar.

 7       Q.   Do you mean he was killed?

 8       A.   He was simply shot dead.

 9       Q.   We are being warned that we are moving too fast for the

10    interpreters.  My apologies to the interpreters.  I will slow down a

11    little and I will also make you a sign to slow down.  Very well.  So

12    during that period of time, we see what happened to you.  At that time,

13    did you know Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

14       A.   Yes, I did know him.  The whole Martinovic family.  I've known

15    them for some 40 years before that and I was on very good terms with

16    them.  We were quite friendly.  There was human understanding between us.

17    And I knew Mr. Vinko personally.

18       Q.   So you say good, neighbourly relations between you're two families

19    and Vinko, how is it that you know him?  On what kind of terms were you

20    with him?

21       A.   Well, you see, since I knew them, since I knew Vinko's parents and

22    Vinko, I knew him since he was a boy and I have a son who is more or less

23    his peer and they were pals.  So I know Vinko in this respect quite well.

24       Q.   At that time, during the conflict with the Serbs, did you have --

25    did you see Vinko during that conflict, do you know that he played a role

Page 13967

 1    during that conflict?

 2       A.   Yes, yes, I did.  I did, Vinko and all the others, all the other

 3    lads, boys, who wanted to defend, they organised in a manner of speaking,

 4    they got together, helped civilians and they simply organised themselves

 5    so as to be ready to defend.

 6       Q.   You say they organised themselves.  How were they organised, in

 7    some military formations?

 8       A.   No, just like that.  It was early days.  It looked -- I mean

 9    organisation was getting together, protection of property, protection of

10    all that property that could be endangered by the aggression.

11       Q.   I see.  Very well.  But these are very early days and at the time

12    did you see Vinko Martinovic in uniform?  Did he join some unit, some army

13    or anything?  Did he resist?  Did you used to see him in an uniform

14    during the war against the Serbs?

15       A.   Yes, I did see Vinko Martinovic in a uniform and I think that he

16    belonged to HOS units.

17       Q.   What were those units, HOS units, at the time?  What did they do,

18    who did they bring together?  Can you tell us something?

19       A.   Well, in my field of knowledge, those were units ready to defend,

20    to simply defend themselves against the aggressor.

21       Q.   Do you know if Vinko Martinovic had a position in HOS?  Was he

22    something more than a foot soldier?

23       A.   No.  I do not know that.

24       Q.   Do you know anything about how at that time, that is where against

25    the Serbs, how did Vinko Martinovic treat Bosniaks, Muslims?  What was his

Page 13968

 1    attitude to them?

 2       A.   Well, since we used to see one another, since we were practically

 3    next door neighbours, from what I know, Vinko's attitude was very correct

 4    with either their boys or those who were older than he was.  He lived,

 5    thought, organised when necessary, something, I mean very correctly and to

 6    the satisfaction.

 7       Q.   Let us now get out of the war with the Serbs.  Do you recall the

 8    day when the conflict between the Muslims and Croats broke out and do you

 9    know what date it was in Mostar?

10       A.   Yes, I remember it.  It was the 9th of May, 1991 -- sorry, 1993.

11       Q.   Can you tell the Court now briefly what happened to your family

12    that day?  How did that day begin?  When did you see that the conflict was

13    starting?  Tell us in your own words, tell us your experience of that day?

14       A.   On the 9th of May, when this conflict broke out, I was in my flat

15    with my wife, my daughter, my son, and my grandchild.  Early in the

16    morning, it could have been 5.00 or 6.00.  We could hear some strange

17    noise, how to put it, some strange din from the area of the yard where my

18    flat is.  So it woke me up and I got up and my wife did, and we started

19    wondering what it could have been and at first I thought, since the Serb

20    aggression was already under way, that it was general mobilisation of all

21    of us who were able-bodied, that that was the moment when all of us who

22    felt responsible were supposed to go.  And while I was thinking about it,

23    somebody knocked on the door of my flat.  So I went there, I said,

24    "Hello."  And two soldiers turned up there, decent, and all they said to

25    me was, "Come down stairs, please."  And I asked them, "What's this

Page 13969












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13   English transcripts.













Page 13970

 1    about?  Is it mobilisation or what?"  And they said, "come down stairs and

 2    you'll find out."  And then I asked should any other members of the family

 3    come along?  They said, "No, only you."  So I got ready straight away and

 4    I went downstairs into the yard and I saw those two uniformed soldiers

 5    moving ahead of me, some 20 metres ahead of me.  And one of them turned

 6    back and said to me, "You sir, go back to your flat."  And I stopped, I

 7    was rather lost, but they went on and then I turned and went back to my

 8    flat and my wife asks me, "So what happened?"  And I told her what I just

 9    told you.

10       Q.   Very well.  So that was the 9th of May, the morning and so on.

11    And did anything else happen that day?  Did you stay there in your flat?

12    Did anybody come to disturb you again or what?

13       A.   That same day, we could hear, we could still hear how somebody was

14    passing through the yard, some shouts, and a lot of noise, and looking

15    through the window I could see groups of people going in different

16    direction.  Here and there I could see uniformed men moving next to them.

17    That is one could feel some excitement, some commotion, a situation which

18    was not normal.

19       Q.   Were you -- did you then begin to fear for yourself?  Did you know

20    what was going on?  Did you take some steps?

21       A.   Absolutely.  I realised what it could be about, of course I was

22    afraid and I thought about a great many things, about how to save our

23    lives to avoid that the -- to avoid that my family be placed under threat,

24    and to see that my life is not in danger.  Naturally.

25       Q.   So did you do anything in this regard to make yourself safer to

Page 13971

 1    get rid of that fear?  Did you do anything?

 2       A.   Well, listen, I thought how and in what way could I do it?  And

 3    since in the meantime I'd met Mr. Ivan, Vinko's father, I sort of timidly

 4    said, "Ivan, if Vinko could do something, if he is in a position to

 5    protect me, to my family somehow, to avoid something," and Ivan said,

 6    "Right, I'll try."

 7       Q.   Can we have the redaction?  The witness has mentioned -- the

 8    witness has used his name so it needs to be redacted.

 9       A.   I am sorry.

10       Q.   So go slowly but just take care.  This has been redacted.  Nobody

11    will hear that but let's see that your name or nickname does not appear.

12    So without mentioning your name, go on.

13       A.   And as the days went by, this insecurity increased with every day

14    because there were still those groups of people who went around flats, who

15    took people away, who threatened peace.  I did not have much opportunity

16    to move around at the time.

17       Q.   I think we somehow glossed over what Ivan Martinovic told you.

18    Let's go back to that.  You turned to him and asked for help.  And what

19    did he say to you?

20       A.   He said, "Well I'll do my best.  I'll tell Vinko what this is

21    about."  And I believe that Vinko will be able to do something for you."

22       Q.   Did you believe him?  Did you think he was really being sincere or

23    did -- or that he said that only to calm you down?

24       A.   Well, you know, I've known him for a long time so, yes, I placed

25    my full trust in them and I expected and knowing Vinko himself, his

Page 13972

 1    determination, his readiness to protect me at that moment.

 2       Q.   Very well.  So you stayed in that flat, the days went by, the

 3    situation as such as it is.  Did anybody else tomorrow could your door?

 4    Did you have any -- did you suffer any other unpleasant moments or was it

 5    all -- were there any other problems?

 6       A.   Well, yes, during the next months or so, and it was around half

 7    past 9.00 in the evening, and my door bell was rung by individuals, so I

 8    opened the door and saw a soldier armed and a civilian with him, and they

 9    asked me to see my papers, and my family's papers.

10       Q.   Just a moment.  So we understand.  Who is in the flat?  You opened

11    the door.  Who was in the flat with you at that time?

12       A.   When they came to my flat, my wife, my son, and my grandson were

13    there next to me.

14       Q.   And how old was your son then?

15       A.   27.

16       Q.   Go on.  So they wanted to see your papers?

17       A.   I gave them my documentation.  They looked at each other, said,

18    "Who else lives here with you?"  And I told them, my wife -- I, my wife,

19    my son, daughter-in-law, and the grandson, and they asked, "Then where is

20    your son?"  My wife got scared at that moment.  As a mother, she

21    thought -- she simply said, "He's gone with Vinko."  May I say his name?

22    Yes. "He went with Vinko."  And they sort of stopped and said, "Which

23    Vinko?"  And my mom said, "Vinko, Stela, Martinovic," and I felt that they

24    looked at one another and a few seconds later, after thinking about it,

25    they gave me my papers back and said, "Sorry," sort of, "We made a

Page 13973

 1    mistake."

 2       Q.   Very well.  So they returned your documents.  Did they then leave

 3    and you closed the door and went back?

 4       A.   Yes, they left but they also said, "We'll be back."

 5       Q.   And after that, did you do anything or did you merely wait to see

 6    what would happen next?

 7       A.   Well, you know, after they said, "We'll be back," of course, it is

 8    night-time and all that so that I was in some kind of -- and I decided to

 9    go to a neighbour who lived next to me and who knew Mr. Vinko Martinovic

10    to ask him to somehow go to his base to let him know, and this young woman

11    went there, she didn't find Vinko, but she found his men there.  In the

12    meantime Vinko also returned, so Vinko did not come personally but he did

13    send his men to see what was going on.

14       Q.   So your neighbour went there, she found Vinko, and he sent

15    soldiers.  Are you sure that it was he who sent those soldiers?

16       A.   Yes, because those soldiers are my acquaintances.

17       Q.   And did they tell you that Vinko had sent them to you?

18       A.   Yes.  They said, "Vinko can't come right now but we could," so

19    they stayed at our place for about one hour and interviewed because I

20    could recognise those people how they were dressed and really did not know

21    those men, so I could not tell them about that but they said, "There will

22    be no problem. We shall let Vinko -- we shall report it to Vinko and we

23    shall also pay you frequent visits so that you feel that we are helping

24    you so that you feel more secure and" ...

25       Q.   And is that how it was?

Page 13974

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And was it like that all the time?

 3       A.   Well, you know, as time went by I joined the civilian defence

 4    units and then I had the opportunity of meeting Mr. Vinko himself, and in

 5    short conversations, I could tell him in case, because Vinko was always

 6    very forthcoming and he talked with me and it meant a great deal to me at

 7    the time, because even a nice greeting was also a major prize, and he was

 8    always ready for that and yes.

 9       Q.   Very well.  Can you tell us about one of those conversations with

10    Vinko?  What does he ask you?  How is it?  How can we see that he's

11    looking after you?  Can you tell us about it in your words?  Can you

12    recount one of these conversations?

13       A.   Well, listen, when he asks you, "Well, how are you, any problems?

14    How is your security?  How did you live?  Enough food?   Because at that

15    time it was critical even to get by some food or cigarettes and Vinko was

16    always ready to either from his mother or from his folk to simply halve

17    their ration and then bring to my family and give me a package or a carton

18    of cigarettes.  And that was major help at the time.

19       Q.   Yes.  I can understand that.  So he helped you even where supplies

20    were concerned, cigarettes and that?

21       A.   Yes, yes.

22       Q.   Tell this Court, in that situation, what did it mean to you?  Did

23    you feel different owing to that, differently than before?

24       A.   Well, you know, it meant a return to life because when you are

25    helpless and then somebody turns up who guarantees -- well, not

Page 13975












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Page 13976

 1    guarantees, but guarantees and approaches you in this way, that is

 2    something completely different.  You start living again because that was a

 3    time of such depression and all that, I -- and many things, when you start

 4    thinking about them, are simply hopeless.

 5       Q.   But tell us, please, how is that Vinko guaranteed?  What was he

 6    that he could protect you, to help you feel safe?  Where did you see that

 7    he could give you this security and make you believe it?

 8       A.   Well, to begin with, Vinko was a soldier, a uniformed soldier.

 9    Secondly, I know his determination, and his readiness because I know him,

10    that he is even ready to physically oppose somebody at a given moment.

11       Q.   So this was his -- how he treated you and your family.  Do you

12    know perhaps, how he treated other Bosniaks, other Muslims, at the time?

13       A.   In the area in which I lived, there were many Muslims.  I never

14    heard from anyone of them, I mean from my nearest neighbours, that they

15    held any grudge against Vinko, that they had any objections to Vinko's

16    behaviour.  They simply had no knowledge of any things that would be wrong

17    with Vinko.

18       Q.   Well, and did you hear perhaps if somebody said how he'd been

19    helped by him?

20       A.   I've heard it, yes, I heard it from a number of people who say,

21    thanks be to him.  He has done it, just as I say, he did me a favour for

22    my family, yes, there are such people.

23       Q.   Did you hear -- did you ever see Vinko persecute anyone, a family,

24    a Muslim family from the area?

25       A.   I used to see Vinko often in my area, but that I did not see.

Page 13977

 1    That I did not see.

 2       Q.   Did you see his soldiers evicting somebody, persecuting?  Did you

 3    see them doing that?

 4       A.   No, even though I know individual soldiers of his but, no, they

 5    didn't.

 6       Q.   How is it that you know his soldiers?

 7       A.   Well, you know, they are also lads from the neighbourhood, just as

 8    I knew Vinko I knew a few of them because they were my son's peers and

 9    naturally they palled up and of course I knew them.

10       Q.   All right.  Tell me, did you hear stories about how Vinko

11    persecuted, Bosniaks, Muslims?  Did you ever hear those stories?

12       A.   Why, yes, I did, I heard them.

13       Q.   And did you check those stories?  Do you know if they are true or

14    not?

15       A.   Well, they were things when -- I mean, to my mind, they are not

16    true.

17       Q.   What does it mean, "to your mind"?

18       A.   Well, I mean because I know, and I didn't see, and many neighbours

19    say that Vinko did not do it, that is that their not true, then I have no

20    reason to say that that was so when it wasn't.

21       Q.   And did you perhaps hear those stories saying how various criminal

22    groups impersonated his men, how they said that they had his orders? Did

23    you hear anything about that?

24       A.   Yes, I heard it, I heard from some neighbours.  I also think that

25    there were such groups who, on behalf or rather in the name of Mr. Vinko,

Page 13978

 1    who misrepresented themselves, yes, my nearest neighbours said that.

 2       Q.   At that time, therefore, so you enjoyed some protection, and

 3    you're living here and time goes by and as far as I understand, you joined

 4    the civil defence.  Now, what is it?  What kind of duties did you perform?

 5       A.   Well, the duty of the civil defence was the reception of the

 6    humanitarian aid, its storage and its distribution.

 7       Q.   Can you now tell us how was this humanitarian relief distributed?

 8    Was any distinction drawn between Croats, Muslims?

 9       A.   When the war broke out between -- with Serbs, every family was

10    given its personal card, noting down -- recording the number of members of

11    the family, and that is -- and on the basis of these cards, people

12    received packages, and there was no distinction.  All of us, Croats and

13    Muslims and Serbs, received those packages, all of us who were there.

14       Q.   And that civil defence, did Ivan Martinovic -- was in the civil

15    defence with you?

16       A.   Yes, we were together from the beginning to the end.

17       Q.   How did he behave?  How did he treat Muslims that -- you were in

18    daily contact?  Was there some difference as against the period before the

19    war with Muslims?

20       A.   Well, listen in those units, there were Serbs and Muslims and

21    Croats.  Mr. -- may I mention his name?

22       Q.   Yes.

23       A.   Mr. Ivan very correctly with great dignity, and very humanely

24    treated everybody equally.  I never noticed that somebody enjoyed more

25    rights or more privileges than I did or more access to him or somebody.

Page 13979

 1    To him, everybody was equal.

 2       Q.   Tell me, we are coming to the end of my examination, I only have a

 3    few more questions left, could you tell us what your situation is now as a

 4    Muslim in that part of Mostar?  Do you still feel insecure?  Do you suffer

 5    any other sort of pressure because you're a Muslim living in that mainly

 6    Croatian neighbourhood?

 7       A.   As regards physical insecurity, I have no problems with that.  My

 8    only insecurity is financial insecurity.  I am unemployed.  There are four

 9    of us in the family.  And that's my only problem.  And that is the biggest

10    source of anxiety for my family and myself.

11       Q.   Your other neighbours, Croats, do they have the same problems or

12    do you have these problems because you're a Muslim?  How do you see that?

13       A.   There are such problems but perhaps to a lesser extent.  When the

14    conflict broke out, Muslims lost their jobs, and now because the economy

15    has been destroyed, it's very hard.  Some people remained there but there

16    is no discrimination.  There are others -- I mean them, who are in the

17    same position as me.

18       Q.   Witness, I have no further questions for you.  Thank you very

19    much.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, cross-examination, Mr. Bos?

21                          Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:

22       Q.   Good evening, Witness MB.  My name is Roland Bos for the

23    Prosecution and I will ask you some questions.

24       A.   Good afternoon.

25       Q.   Witness MB, let me start by asking, you've said that there were

Page 13980

 1    other Muslims in the neighbourhood where you lived who said that they were

 2    also protected by Mr. Martinovic.  Could you give me, please, the names of

 3    these persons and if necessary we can go into private session.

 4            We will go into private session, I think.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

 6                          [Private session]

 7  [redacted]

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10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

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17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

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Page 13981













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Page 13982

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10  [redacted]

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17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20                          [Open session]

21            MR. BOS:  I'm moving to another topic.  I can try to do it in four

22    minutes but it may exceed so maybe this is a good time to break.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Par?

24            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I also suggest that we break now and

25    that I use the four minutes to tell you about the witnesses we have

Page 13983

 1    planned for tomorrow, and also to tender some documents.

 2            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Mr. Usher, would you please show the witness out

 3    of the room after you pull down the blinds?

 4            Well, Witness, during your stay in The Hague, please do not talk

 5    to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about your testimony.  Do

 6    you understand that?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  You are still under the oath.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

10            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.  Thank you.

12            JUDGE LIU:  See you tomorrow.

13                          [The witness stands down]

14            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Par?

15            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are trying to adhere

16    to the order we gave you, so that tomorrow we envisage the continuation of

17    this testimony.  That's witness number 3.  Then we intend to call and

18    possibly complete witness number 4.  If there is time left, we shall bring

19    in witness 6 and not witness 5.  That is our plan.  If we can complete all

20    this tomorrow, there will be one witness left for Monday.  And that would

21    be witness number 5.  We have another group of witnesses arriving on

22    Sunday and these are the four witnesses -- I can provide their names if

23    our learned friends do not already have them.  And we hope that we will be

24    able to continue calling the witnesses in the order we announced.  Thank

25    you.

Page 13984

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Well, thank you very much for your information.  I'm

 2    so glad that we pick up some speed for those witnesses.

 3            As for -- we have many witnesses who testified almost the same

 4    thing.  So I believe that we could speed up a little bit.  But

 5    unfortunately, this week, we could not finish all five witnesses.  At

 6    most, we will finish four witnesses tomorrow.

 7            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] We plan to continue examining these

 8    witnesses in the same way as this witness.  The same goes for the next

 9    group of witnesses.  So the time will be roughly the same for each

10    witness.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  How about the documents you are

12    going to tender?

13            MR. PAR: [Interpretation] We have no documents with these groups

14    of witnesses.  We will not tender any documents except perhaps maps.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

16            So I think we have to rise until tomorrow afternoon in Courtroom

17    II.

18                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19                          7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

20                          the 19th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.