Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14632

 1                          Monday, 26 August 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Case number

 7    IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Mladen Naletilic and Vinko Martinovic.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  Good morning, everybody, and

 9    welcome back to this case.  I notice Mr. Stringer is here.  It has been a

10    long time.

11            Yes, Mr. Stringer?

12            MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Thank you, and it's

13    good to be back.  I'll be -- I think the Trial Chamber has received a

14    letter from Mr. Scott.  I'll be standing in for him this week but I will

15    be staying with the case until its conclusion.

16            JUDGE LIU:  We are so glad to hear that.

17            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.

18            JUDGE LIU:  On the 2nd of August this year, this Trial Chamber

19    made a decision for the videolink conference this week.  We will hear

20    eight witnesses in five days so there are specific time limits for each

21    witness.  Next Monday, we will hear another witness for Martinovic's case

22    through the videolink, and after that, we will hear directly a witness in

23    Naletilic's case on Tuesday, September the 3rd, 2002, in The Hague.  In

24    the meantime, I would like to remind both parties that this case should be

25    completed by 27th September, 2002.

Page 14633

 1            As for the time schedule, we will have four sittings today.  Each

 2    will last for one hour to an hour and 30 minutes, between which we will

 3    have three breaks.

 4            Now -- yes?  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

 5            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  On

 6    behalf of the Defence, thank you for your words of welcome, and I'd also

 7    like to say good morning to my learned friends.

 8            Your Honours, unfortunately, I'm faced with major problems with

 9    witnesses who were to testify by videolink, but could we go into private

10    session so that I could tell you about it?

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We will go to the private session, please.

12                          [Private session]

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Page 14634











11  Pages 14634-14636 redacted.  Private session.















Page 14637

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20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We are now in open session.  Are there any

22    protective measures for the first witness?

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  As before,

24    distortion and a pseudonym, that is all, thank you.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Any objections?

Page 14638

 1            MR. STRINGER:  I just wanted to make sure that we are talking

 2    about witness number 2 on the list.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 4            MR. STRINGER:  We have no objections to the protective measures,

 5    Mr. President.  Mr. Bos will be involved with that witness.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  I was informed that the facial distortion

 7    and the pseudonym, the facial distortion -- I mean the image will not be

 8    broadcast outside but we will see the image on our screen.  So your

 9    request for the protective measures is granted.  Could we have the

10    witness, please?

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Good morning, Witness.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14            JUDGE LIU:  Would you please make the solemn declaration in

15    accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you?

16            Can you hear me?

17            THE REGISTRAR:  Hello?

18            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Can you hear?

20            THE WITNESS: Yes.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  I can't.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Can you hear me?

23            THE WITNESS: Yes, I can hear.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Can you hear me?

25            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

Page 14639

 1            JUDGE LIU:  Witness, will you please make the solemn declaration

 2    in accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you, please?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 4    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                          WITNESS:  WITNESS NU

 6                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                          [Witness testified via videolink]

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  You may sit down, please.  Yes,

 9    Mr. Krsnik.

10                          Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

11       Q.   Good morning, Witness.  Can you hear me and see me?

12       A.   Good morning, Mr. Krsnik.  I can see you and hear you.

13       Q.   Let us start with our work.  Kindly -- the Registrar is going to

14    show you a piece of paper with your name.  Please don't say your name.

15    Just say yes if this is indeed your name.

16       A.   Yes.

17            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe we could go into

18    private session.  I don't know whether this can be heard outside.  We want

19    to hear some personal data from this witness.  Maybe we should go into

20    private session.

21            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We will go to the private session, please.

22                          [Private session]

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Page 14640











11  Pages 14640-14646 redacted.  Private session.















Page 14647

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21                          [Open session]

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   My next question is as follows:  If it indeed happened that

24    somebody was taken away from the hospital or from any other medical

25    institution to the Heliodrom, would you have learned about that at the

Page 14648

 1    Heliodrom?  Did you know exactly how many people there were there, and

 2    would you have learned that if something like that had happened?

 3       A.   Most probably I would have, for a simple reason:  Doctors who

 4    worked there had the possibility to communicate with me directly, because

 5    Croatian doctors could telephone me, could -- and I personally made

 6    visits, made rounds of the centre, and I tried to notice any change, any

 7    inhumane treatment.  It was my task to notice that, in time, try to deal

 8    with that, either personally or with the help of Dr. Bagaric.

 9       Q.   Witness, can you please tell the Honourable Court everything you

10    know about the Heliodrom?  We've heard stories here, all sorts of

11    different stories.  I would kindly ask you to tell us about the

12    Heliodrom.  That's why you are here.  At the beginning of my case, I said

13    that the Defence would present all the possible evidence, and I believe

14    that your testimony is one of those testimonies that will clarify to the

15    Honourable Court the situation in the Heliodrom.

16       A.   The Heliodrom was, for me personally, a very unpleasant life

17    experience.  However, having said that, I have to say that I'm very proud

18    of what I did there, because I believe that as a doctor, despite all the

19    difficulties that I saw there, I did so much, and at the end of the day,

20    no epidemic was registered.  Whatever causes of epidemics could be there,

21    I tried to spot them, to prevent them.  As I am a professional and expert,

22    I found it much easier to notice the potential foci of epidemics.

23            Further on, I educated other doctors and taught them how to do

24    their job, because I must tell you that the military epidemiology is not

25    taught at any university because in the ex-Yugoslavia there were no

Page 14649

 1    military medical schools, and I gathered my experience when I was working

 2    in the JNA, and I selflessly shared my knowledge.

 3            Can you please ask me specific questions?  A lot of time has gone

 4    by, and can you ask me some specific questions?

 5       Q.   First of all, did you control food?  Do you know how they were

 6    fed?  That will be my first question.

 7            Second question:  Did they have an outpatient surgery?  Who were

 8    the doctors who were working there all the time in the Heliodrom?

 9       A.   As far as the food there is concerned, in May 1993 there was still

10    a lack of food.  There was still not enough food.  For example, my

11    children were refugees and they did not have enough food.  But I did, on

12    my part, with the help of Dr. Bagaric and who turned to other people, I

13    did all I could to provide people with food.

14            Secondly, all the people who distributed food and who had to work

15    with food had to be previously tested for germs.  What does that mean?

16    That means that somebody may have been contagious and could have

17    contaminated the food.  In order to prevent that, we examined all those

18    who got in touch with the food, and that's how we prevented the outbreak

19    of any epidemics.

20            Thirdly, whatever food was given to the people was controlled on a

21    sample.  The sample was kept in a fridge.  There was a book in which the

22    data were recorded every day on what was -- what food was given to the

23    people.  So the data was recorded on breakfast, lunch, and dinner, who was

24    the chef, what was cooked, who controlled the food, and this was signed by

25    the person in charge of that.

Page 14650

 1            So as far as the food is concerned, at the beginning the food was

 2    bad, and that's for sure.  However, as the number of men went down, the

 3    food improved, gradually.  And I can say for a fact that at one point in

 4    time the food that was given to the inmates was the same food that was

 5    given to their guards, the Home Guards, who were providing security.

 6       Q.   Let's stop here just for a second, please.  Let's just clarify

 7    some things.  You said, if I have understood you well, in your own words,

 8    you said that, and if I have understood you well, you said that that food

 9    was given to everybody in the Heliodrom: to the soldiers, inmates, and to

10    those who provided security.  Did I understand you well?  Did you really

11    say that?

12       A.   Basically, yes.  Perhaps not in the early days, but later on,

13    definitely.

14       Q.   Be so kind.  We are talking about security now.  Do you know what

15    kind of security was it, who guarded the Heliodrom?  Could everybody enter

16    this Detention Unit?

17       A.   No, not everybody was admitted there.  I had a special permit, and

18    there was the military police, and they controlled and checked the

19    identity of everybody.  And personally, perhaps nothing to do with your

20    question, but I delivered two or three lectures to members of the military

21    police related to the Geneva Conventions.  Because as a man, as a

22    physician, as a humanist - excuse me.  I'm slightly emotional - I was

23    afraid of revenge, because there were people who were wounded.  And I

24    delivered those lectures mostly to those men, and I think that that is,

25    well, a kind of my contribution.

Page 14651

 1       Q.   Doctor, thank you very much for your explanation, although it has

 2    nothing to do with my question.  But did you personally observe any

 3    harassment at the Heliodrom by those men who guarded it or by somebody

 4    else?  Did any detainees complain to you?

 5       A.   Since in the town of Mostar --

 6       Q.   Mind that you don't reveal your identity.  If need be, we shall go

 7    back into private session, but just take care.  Shall we go into private

 8    session?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Please, Your Honours.

11            JUDGE LIU:  We'll go to the private session, please.

12                          [Private session]

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Page 14657

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20                          [Open session]

21            JUDGE LIU:  Now we are in the open session.  You may proceed.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   So were those military?  Were they civilians?  What do you know

24    about them?  If you do know anything about it, will you please tell the

25    Court?

Page 14658

 1       A.   Well, I wouldn't know any definite number, and if I said something

 2    exact, I don't know, but I think that an approximate number could be, I

 3    don't know, 1200, 1300, 1500.  It's difficult to say.  You know, it's

 4    difficult really, difficult to say.  As for people whom I met there, I

 5    didn't know a number -- a majority of them.  Those I did know were

 6    Mostarans, that is my townsmen, people that I knew from before.  But they

 7    were but few.  I also know that already sometime in late May, their number

 8    drastically decreased and continued to drop.  So that I think that in

 9    1994, in the beginning of 1994, I think there were much -- very few

10    people, only perhaps a few hundred.  And the conditions of course were

11    much better, but these are only approximate figures.  I will repeat, 1200,

12    1300, 1500, not more than that, during this most deplorable period and

13    later on, 200, 300, 400, 500.  So these figures are not particularly

14    reliable, but that is what I can give you.

15       Q.   Well, doctor, this is also helpful.  Do you perhaps know what was

16    the situation towards the end of the summer, and when did the number begin

17    to decrease?  You said that there were never more than 1500, if I

18    understood you well.  Do you know when did this number begin to drop?

19       A.   Well, you see, sometime after ten or 15 days, the number

20    drastically dropped.  Why, I don't know.  Nobody told me about it.

21       Q.   Of course.

22       A.   Nor did I ask for it.

23       Q.   No, no, no.  I'm asking only what you personally know.

24       A.   I know that a number drastically dropped because I knew

25    indirectly, and I will mention the JNA because there are certain things

Page 14659

 1    that you can learn indirectly on the basis of the number of meals.  That

 2    is how you can get some impression.  And I'm telling you, as the summer

 3    came to a close, as the delegations came, international, Bosniak and

 4    Croat, I suppose, some exchanges took place or something, something at a

 5    political level, and then the number was smaller.  And to us, or

 6    specifically for me, it became much easier to work because it is of course

 7    much easier to take care of a smaller number of people than of a larger

 8    number of people.

 9       Q.   Tell us, please, did you also take care or are you aware that

10    there were at the Heliodrom some detained Croats, for different reasons?

11    Were you aware of them and did you look after them, or was it somebody

12    else's responsibility?

13       A.   Let me tell you, of course there were Croats there, surely,

14    because I knew some of them.  And I tell you again, I'm a doctor, I cannot

15    discriminate for or against him because he's a Croat, give him something

16    better or something worse because he's not a Croat.  He got what we had,

17    and what we could administer to him as quickly as possible and as best as

18    possible, because you see, the team that treated -- there was the team

19    headed by Gagic who was for the prevention of diseases, and there was also

20    a team which provided us with medication, so it was, let me say, a system,

21    a system which worked for the sake of normalcy and with a view to

22    improving things.  If you -- you can treat patients but if you apply

23    prophylactic measures you also preventively treat them.  So all the

24    medical supplies that we had, we distributed them not according whether

25    this one was this or this one was that, but only to the patients who

Page 14660

 1    needed them most.

 2       Q.   And my last two questions, Witness.  Can you tell us, if you know,

 3    that is, whether you personally talked with those people and what did they

 4    tell you, why were they there?  So what is it that you know about it?

 5    That would be my penultimate question.

 6       A.   Well, you see, I talked.  Among others, there were people who were

 7    members of the BH Army.  Supposedly this was being taken care by the -- by

 8    the military investigative body, but I'm not interested in that because

 9    I'm a doctor.  I'm interested in men.  And sometimes I would ask, "Why is

10    he here?"  And they would say, "He's suspected of this or that."  And

11    others were isolated as a preventive measure.  That is what I was told,

12    because when this unfortunate war started in Mostar and Mostar is a

13    multi-ethnic town, and there were tenants of different ethnic origins or

14    faiths in buildings, and there was perhaps a danger that a neighbour would

15    attack a neighbour.  Perhaps this was a kind of an excuse, even though I

16    don't really think that people are all that mean, but perhaps the

17    politicians do think that, and that is why they called it a centre for

18    preventive isolation.  But I'm telling you, some ten days ago I was on the

19    left bank, that is in the Bosniak part, with a colleague of mine, and

20    people who were there for, say, Stranjak, we are still friends, because we

21    realised that it was evil that he did not ask for, that I did not ask for,

22    that it was evil but we were people.

23       Q.   And my last question, Witness, will be:  Where were you on the 9th

24    of May, 1993?  Tell us something about your personal experience, if you

25    have any, that is, and in relation to this penultimate question, can you,

Page 14661

 1    approximately, of course, tell us how many Mostarans were there in -- at

 2    the Heliodrom and how many were those who came from elsewhere?  Can you

 3    give us any figure?

 4       A.   It is very difficult, you know.  I used to be a sports physician

 5    once upon a time, and when I would read reports from matches, I would

 6    compare the number of people present at the match with the figure in the

 7    newspaper, so I gained some impressions of mine, but again it is very

 8    difficult.  You understand -- you have to understand, I am a physician.

 9    Any -- every time that somebody came there, it was a stress.  It is still

10    a stress when I have a patient.

11       Q.   Yes, I understand, doctor.  If you can tell us, tell us.  If you

12    can't, never mind.  Just approximately, just to give us some idea?

13       A.   Well, perhaps, perhaps, I don't know, if I see ten people, I know

14    two or three of them.  Others, I don't.  Or I join a group, there are ten

15    of them, I don't know anyone, or I join a group of five, I know them all.

16    But perhaps I knew about 20 or 30 per cent of people, and those were

17    people who are even my friends, who in (redacted)

18    (redacted), don't go to the left bank.  Nobody -- none of us will do

19    anything to you but there are some other people there, some outsiders,

20    some refugees, and they might do something."  And that is the thing that I

21    also told to my friends on the right bank, because you know a war is an

22    abnormal situation, there are emotions which surface, which you cannot

23    keep under control.  So my figure would be 20, 30 per cent, but don't

24    really take it as gospel because I'm really making pure guesses.

25       Q.   Very well.  Well, tell us, do you know something about the date of

Page 14662

 1    the 9th of May, 1993?  Where were you, if you were anywhere, what you saw,

 2    if you saw anything?  What do you know about it?

 3       A.   Well, you see, in my life, there are several very unpleasant

 4    dates, dates that I will never forget, and perhaps that is my

 5    post-traumatic syndrome, but you see, I was in my -- in my flat, and I was

 6    asleep, and the gun-fire started.  I was taken aback.  I mean, in every

 7    organised army you are supposed to know what is about to happen, but I

 8    didn't know anything and there was shooting and shooting and shooting.

 9    After a while, my telephone rang.  At that moment I had a privilege, I had

10    an army telephone, and they told me that an attack had started and that I

11    had to get to the main medical staff without delay, and it was several

12    kilometres away from my house.  I had an official vehicle.  I couldn't get

13    the driver because the gun-fire was frightening, and about 100 or 200

14    metres as the crow flies from me, there was a sniper firing.  It is where

15    the seat or the headquarters of the ABiH Army unit was, the White Corps or

16    whatever it was called.  I couldn't really leave the house all that

17    easily.  Across the street from me, there is the civilian police, so I

18    called them.  They came.  I was downstairs.  They stopped right at the

19    front door.  I entered the Golf.  I lay down, and then a part of the road,

20    that is for about 20 metres, we covered so fast, and I arrived safely to

21    the main medical -- to the main medical headquarters where I stayed

22    several days, never leaving the building.  We were getting the food from

23    the hospital.  But I'm telling you one of the worst moments in my life was

24    that one.

25       Q.   I'm sorry, you said the attack started.  Whose attack?

Page 14663

 1       A.   Well, I was told that it was the BH Army which had launched the

 2    attack.  "Mind you don't take this street because there is a sniper.

 3    You'll be killed."  And I looked from under the blinds, and in neither

 4    street was there a single person.  This situation was sad, the situation

 5    was impossible.  There was this horrible odour, and I realised that a

 6    human head was worth nothing, because it wouldn't survive, because there

 7    were snipers on both sides.  And I can affirm that there was fire opened

 8    from Vranica, and there are still bullet marks in my building, and I was

 9    told that at the headquarters.

10       Q.   And who fired from Vranica at your building?

11       A.   Well, they were not firing at my flat.  There was simply fire.

12    Well, that is the building where the command of the -- I believe the 4th

13    Corps from Mostar was.

14       Q.   Witness, thank you very much.  I have no further questions for

15    you.  Thank you very much for coming and thank you for making the effort

16    and finding time to come and help us with your testimony.  And now I will

17    hand you over to my learned friend.  Thank you very much once again.

18            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But, Your Honours, as I see, it is

19    now time for the break.  It is 11.00.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, it is time for a break.  I hope during the break

21    the LiveNote on the small computer could be fixed.  We'll rise until

22    11.30.

23                          --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

24                          --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Well, since we have few witnesses for the videolink

Page 14664

 1    conference, so we won't sit very late today.  I think we'll finish today's

 2    sitting at 4.00.  And after 4.00, the acting Senior Legal Officer will

 3    approach both parties for some procedural matters.

 4            Well, Mr. Bos, are you ready for your cross-examination?

 5            MR. BOS:  Yes, Your Honours.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Do you have any document to furnish to us?

 7            MR. BOS:  Yes.  I think we've provided the court deputy with a

 8    bundle of documents which we are using in cross-examination, and I hope

 9    that the witness in Zagreb will also have the documents in Zagreb.  They

10    were given to the court deputy in Zagreb, so they should be also in

11    Zagreb.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  You may proceed.

13                          Cross-examined by Mr. Bos:

14       Q.   Good morning, Witness NU.  Can you hear me?

15            THE INTERPRETER:  We don't hear the witness, unfortunately.

16            MR. BOS:

17       Q.   Witness, we don't hear you.  You may hear us, but we don't hear

18    you, so I think there is a technical problem.

19            Witness, could you -- if you hear me, could you again say

20    something so that we can see if we can hear you now.

21            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

22            MR. BOS:

23       Q.   Witness, you appear to be hearing us, but we don't hear you, so I

24    think something needs to be done.

25                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 14665

 1            JUDGE LIU:  I was told that we need a few minutes, the

 2    technicians, to check it out.

 3            MR. BOS:  Very well.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Can you hear us, Witness?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Bos.  It seems everything is okay.  You may

 7    proceed.

 8            MR. BOS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   Witness, can you hear me?

10       A.   Yes, I can hear you.

11       Q.   Very well.  We can hear you now as well.

12            Witness, my name is Mr. Roeland Bos, from the Office of the

13    Prosecution, and I will ask you some questions in cross-examination.

14            Witness, I'll start off with my first question.  You've testified

15    that you worked at the Mostar hospital during the war in 1993.  What I

16    would like to ask you:  What is the size of the hospital?  If you compare

17    it to the other hospitals in Mostar, would this be the biggest hospital in

18    Mostar?

19       A.   In Mostar, on the right bank, there is just one hospital, which at

20    the time was called the War Hospital.  The department at which I was on

21    call and occasionally worked was the Department for Contagious Diseases of

22    the War Hospital.  So to answer your question, on the right bank there is

23    just one hospital, which may have several buildings, but there was only

24    one hospital, which at the time was called the War Hospital in Mostar.

25       Q.   And during the war in 1993, how many patients, on average, would

Page 14666

 1    be hospitalised on a daily basis?  What was the capacity of the hospital?

 2       A.   Sir, Your Honours, I was there on call, because I was engaged in

 3    the HVO, and since there were not enough specialists for contagious

 4    diseases - there were three with me, four altogether - I was on call to

 5    provide professional help.  At the time, my department consisted of not

 6    more than ten beds, and as far as the capacity of the hospital, you should

 7    ask the principal of the War Hospital and Mr. Bagaric, who was the chief

 8    of the medical corps.

 9       Q.   But could you give us a rough estimation on the number of beds of

10    the hospital?  Are we talking about hundreds of beds, thousands of beds,

11    dozens of beds?

12       A.   In my department, I had 10 or 11 beds.  That department was

13    relocated to the Department of Internal Diseases, because my former

14    department, the Department for Contagious Diseases, was given to

15    psychiatry.  Namely, when the Serbian army, the Army of Republika Srpska,

16    and the JNA, chased psychiatry from Domanovici, these patients sought

17    asylum partly in my department and partly in ATD in Mostar.

18            So the number of beds may have been hundreds of them, but I don't

19    know the exact number.  There were no -- certainly not a thousand beds.

20    Not even today does that hospital have a thousand beds, but there were

21    several hundreds.

22       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, you spoke about the number of detainees at

23    the Heliodrom, and you were asked to give an estimation on the number of

24    detainees, and while you estimated that in May, there were about 1200,

25    maybe at the most 1500 detainees but that number dramatically dropped

Page 14667

 1    after ten days.  Witness, if I put it to you that in August, 1993, there

 2    were about -- there were over 2.000 detainees at the Heliodrom, what would

 3    you say to that?  Would that be possible?

 4       A.   I don't think it would be possible because what I saw with my

 5    colleagues who took me there does not corroborate this figure.

 6       Q.   I will ask now the Court deputy who is there with you to show you

 7    an exhibit, which is Exhibit number P565.04.  And I would like to you read

 8    it.  And it's a letter from Mr. Stanko Bozic, and let me first ask you, do

 9    you know who Mr. Stanko Bozic is?

10       A.   Yes.  I met Mr. Bozic because I helped him in a certain way, but I

11    see this letter for the first time, and never did Mr. Bozic give anything

12    similar to me, never did he enable me to see this figure, and I cannot

13    corroborate this figure.  I know Mr. Bozic, but I see this for the first

14    time in my life.  Because you can see who this letter was sent to, to

15    Mr. Stojic, to Mr. Coric, and to the archives, so I don't know how would I

16    be able to know anything about this, not having seen this before.

17       Q.   Witness, let me explain to you why I'm showing you this letter.

18    This letter is a letter signed by Mr. Bozic who is the -- who was the

19    warden of the Heliodrom in 1993, correct?

20       A.   I assume -- I can see the stamps.  I assume this is correct.  I

21    assume this is his signature.  However, you yourself can see that this was

22    never sent to the Medical Corps, more specifically to Dr. Bagaric, and

23    even if this had been sent to him --

24       Q.   I'm not claiming it was sent to the Medical Corps.  I'm just using

25    this exhibit to show you at the second paragraph where Mr. Bozic, who is

Page 14668

 1    the warden of the Heliodrom, talks about the fact that there were 2100

 2    detainees at the Heliodrom.  Is it correct that that's what this letter

 3    says?  And isn't it correct that Mr. Bozic would know this much better

 4    than you would?

 5       A.   Your Honours, Mr. Bozic was the warden, which is confirmed by his

 6    signature.  I said that the military police provided security, and

 7    obviously he should have known -- have had more information.  But I must

 8    tell you also that I was taken to the detainees by my colleagues, doctors,

 9    and what I saw, I gave you just approximate figures.  I found everything

10    shocking.  Whether this is correct, I do not know, but the figure that I

11    gave you was based on my insight.  If that figure is not correct, then

12    Mr. Bozic did not take me to some parts of the detention centre because

13    maybe my assistance was not needed there.

14       Q.   But wouldn't you agree with me that Mr. Bozic was in a better

15    position to assess the number of detainees than you were?

16       A.   Obviously, if he was the warden, it is only logical that he should

17    have known better than me, but I again tell you that I don't know why he

18    did not inform me about that, because on several occasions he asked for my

19    assistance.  So I don't know why I wasn't informed.  I see this figure,

20    Your Honours, for the first time, and I hear this information for the

21    first time in my life.

22       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Now, Witness, is it correct that in the

23    autumn of 1993, that during that period, you not only visited the

24    Heliodrom but you also visited other detention centres, like Gabela,

25    Ljubuski and Livno, and that you sort of inspected these detention centres

Page 14669

 1    and that you actually issued reports on the conditions of these detention

 2    centres?

 3       A.   You probably remember that I, at the beginning of -- said that

 4    when I left the JNA, I was a professional who was familiar not only with

 5    medical profession but with the military epidemiology and that I was very

 6    soon promoted, but I also told you that upon the order of Dr. Bagaric, I

 7    was supposed to go to these centres and to act according to the principles

 8    of humanity and to teach my colleagues.  I also told you that at no school

 9    of medicine in the former Yugoslavia these things are not taught, and my

10    superior, Dr. Bagaric, told me, "You are a doctor who knows these things,

11    and you should help.  If you need assistance, you can always come to me.

12    This is a shame on all of us and we have to do everything possible to put

13    things right."

14       Q.   Witness, if I understand your question [sic] you say that you were

15    ordered by Mr. Bagaric to do this, and one of the things he asked you was

16    to teach at the detention centres issues of international humanitarian

17    law.  Now, is it correct that Mr. Bagaric asked you to do this after the

18    Red Cross had visited the Heliodrom on the 10, 11 and 12 of August, 1993

19    and had concluded that there were breaches of the Geneva Conventions in

20    this -- in the Heliodrom, for three different reasons:  one, because the

21    detainees were taken out for labour; two, because the quality and the

22    quantity of the food was insufficient; and three, because the isolation

23    cells were in bad condition?

24            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

25            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have some

Page 14670

 1    arguments from my learned friend where does his knowledge come from?

 2    Where does he draw his knowledge in order to be able to ask this question

 3    in his cross?  And where is that document provided by the Red Cross, in

 4    which it says this?

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Bos, lay some background on those

 6    allegations.

 7            MR. BOS:  Your Honours, I will come to that later on with some of

 8    the exhibits I will use, but for now I would just like to pose this

 9    question to the witness, but this will come back in one of the exhibits

10    which I will use later on.  So if you allow me to continue and have this

11    witness respond to this question?

12                          [Trial Chamber confers]

13            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I think you have to lead this witness step by

14    step.  First you have to ask this witness whether he's aware of the visit

15    by the Red Cross on a certain time.  Then later on, you could follow up

16    your other questions.

17            MR. BOS:  Yes, Your Honour.

18       Q.   Witness, were you aware that the Red Cross visited the Heliodrom

19    mid-August, 1993?

20       A.   I heard that the -- indirectly, because my duty was to prevent

21    contagious diseases and education of my colleagues.  I know that

22    Mr. Loncar, Dr. Loncar, from the International Red Cross was also involved

23    and Dr. Bagaric had contacts with him.  I heard that as hearsay from them,

24    but directly I was not involved.  Whenever I asked for information, I

25    would receive it, and it was our intention, and Dr. Bagaric always said,

Page 14671

 1    "Everything has to be made available to the international organisations,

 2    the international laws have to be respected, humanitarian laws have to be

 3    respected, and medicine should be our guiding principle, the principles of

 4    medicine should be our guiding principles."

 5       Q.   Now, Witness, if you were aware that the Red Cross visited the

 6    Heliodrom in August, 1993, do you also know what their conclusions were

 7    after their inspection visit?

 8       A.   No.  I did not have any information.  The information I had was --

 9    I always wrote reports, a lot of reports, and I knew that the war had

10    started, that it would go on, and that it would eventually finish, that

11    there would be different statements, some more credible, some less

12    credible, some even false statements.  That is why I documented

13    everything, in order to be able to remember everything I did, the ways I

14    acted.  And Dr. Bagaric always told us to involve all the authorities and

15    that all the situations which proved to be inhumane and which were against

16    human rights should be reported.  In addition to that, Dr. Bagaric

17    provided me with information that he considered he should provide me with,

18    some people in charge of the hospital, some of the patients, some of the

19    medicines, and he gave me information pertaining to my area.  And I also

20    exchanged information with him, but he very often consulted me on various

21    methods and sought my opinion.

22       Q.   But, Witness, the only thing I would like to know now is that all

23    your activities with regard to the detention centres and the reports you

24    drafted on these detention centres, were they all after the Red Cross had

25    visited the Heliodrom in August, 1993?

Page 14672

 1       A.   Your Honours, the first time I visited Heliodrom was on the 11th

 2    and 12th of May, 1993.  Doctors who were there, when they saw the

 3    detainees, they did not know what to do, so Dr. Bagaric sent me urgently

 4    to educate my colleagues.  So our work started long before.  I'm sure you

 5    have my report from 11 and 12 May in which it says we educated these

 6    people, but not only them.  Until the beginning of the conflict with

 7    Muslims, I educated my colleagues, Muslims, Bosniaks, because I thought we

 8    would be in this together.  So it was not on Bagaric's order or on the

 9    orders of the Red Cross that I went there.  I just went there because

10    Bagaric told me, "Go there because this is what happened and see what you

11    can do to help."

12       Q.   But isn't it correct - and we will come to those reports - that

13    you issued several reports on various camps in the autumn of 1993,

14    especially in November, 1993?

15       A.   I assume that it was so.  I was the person with the highest

16    authority in the area of prevention and the Geneva Conventions.  I don't

17    know how things are in your country but in the former Yugoslavia, these

18    things are not taught at schools.  This is the experience I gathered in

19    the army, when I was studying to become a major, and my superior,

20    Dr. Bagaric, thought that I was the best prepared to go there and that he

21    is the person who can put things right if necessary.  And wherever I went,

22    I went to alleviate human suffering.

23       Q.   Witness, I'm going to ask you -- you've been answering my

24    questions very elaborately, and I'm going to ask -- my questions have been

25    quite simple, and several of them could have been answered by yes or no.

Page 14673

 1    But your answers are very elaborate, and I'm going to ask you to be a bit

 2    more concise and listen to the question and just answer the question which

 3    I ask you.

 4            Now, Witness, I'm going to show you another exhibit, which is

 5    Exhibit P618.1, and I hope that the court deputy could give you that

 6    document.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, I have it.

 8            MR. BOS:  And my question is:  Witness, could you look at this

 9    report, and is it correct -- this is a report dated 30 September, 1993, on

10    the conditions in the Heliodrom.  And is it correct that you issued and

11    drafted this report?

12       A.   The date, yes, the 30th of September.  I remember the date.  Now,

13    who drew up this report, I'm not sure.  I don't really think it was me,

14    simply because if you look at my reports, you will see that there is

15    always to the side "H/C."  But I'm sure that this is a correct report.

16    Yes, I recall.

17       Q.   On the last page of the report -- in fact, you co-signed it with

18    two other doctors, but is it correct that on the last page of the report,

19    your signature appears as one of the members of this commission who

20    reported on the conditions in September at the Heliodrom?

21       A.   Yes, I am one of the co-signatories, and you will also see that

22    Dr. Kolak and Dr. Sandrk are members of the main medical staff.  And sure,

23    I was on the team.  Because you have to understand that among other

24    things, I had a team for emergency interventions.  If there was an -- if

25    an epidemiological incident broke out somewhere, then I would go there

Page 14674

 1    with the team.  I wasn't on the member of the staff to sit at the

 2    headquarters.  I was in the field, to go there and alleviate troubles.

 3    But I am a co-signatory.

 4       Q.   Witness, if you have a closer look at the report, and I'll

 5    highlight a few of the things that were established in this report.  Under

 6    number 3 on the first page of the report, it says that the - this concerns

 7    the Heliodrom - that the centre's surroundings and the centre itself are

 8    messy and neglected.  Under number 4, it says that the centre is

 9    overcrowded with inmates.  Under number 8, it says the hygienic conditions

10    are absolutely unsatisfactory and there is a great likelihood of an

11    outbreak of intestinal and respiratory diseases.  And under 7, that there

12    is no segregation in the centre between the wounded, the sick, and the

13    healthy inmates.  Is it correct that those were some of the findings in

14    this report, Witness NU?

15       A.   Your Honours, if it is written, then it must be correct.  But let

16    me tell you:  If you came to Mostar now, you would see that it's

17    absolutely dirty, and the television and the press keep writing about

18    this.  I am an expert of the WHO, and I frequently appeared on television

19    in Mostar saying that because of the situation such as it is, an epidemic

20    is likely to break out, and at any time, under 3.  I'm also glad that you

21    can see, under number 5, what I said about medicines.  About number 7, I

22    do not know what is not clear there.  There is no segregation.  We are not

23    segregating people.  We are not separating them under any basis.  I

24    suppose you have some friends who are physicians, and you will understand

25    that there is no segregation, because segregation equals discrimination in

Page 14675












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Page 14679

1    our mind.

 2            And what else did you say?  I believe you mentioned number 8.

 3    Well, you see, the number of people must have been larger, but they were

 4    leaving, as I already said.  And it is a fact that if there is a large

 5    number of people in one place, then either respiratory or intestinal

 6    diseases are likely to appear.  And that is why the literature said that

 7    the first thing you must pay attention to is to reduce the number of

 8    people as much as possible in order to reduce the risk of disease.  At any

 9    rate, in any hospital of the world, you have the -- infections will always

10    spread, even in a family, when you have a larger family.  It is less

11    likely to spread in a household where there are less people.

12       Q.   Witness, in the report you give seven proposed measures.  My

13    question is:  Were all these measures that you proposed actually followed

14    up after this report?

15       A.   First let me explain something.  Dr. Bagaric heard my proposal.  I

16    don't remember the exact date.  And then he wrote that the work at the

17    centre for the preventive insulation, as we called it, was the priority

18    task, and that physicians working in home guard units were responsible for

19    it and the administrators, such as Mr. Bozic, was responsible, and the

20    higher institutions were to ensure this.  And I suppose you listened to

21    what I was saying, and if a patient clinic was set up, an infirmary was

22    set up, there were medicines, and there is no doubt that severe wounded

23    were taken to Mostar, if possible, if there were any.  And I can even tell

24    you that at night-time and at times I had difficulties with drivers,

25    drivers who had to take people to the War Hospital.

Page 14680

 1       Q.   Very well.  I'll leave this exhibit.  I'll ask you now to look

 2    at --

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course the document

 5    speaks for itself, but I'm really bothered by something.  Look at what the

 6    gentlemen from the Prosecution wrote in the document description for this

 7    document.  They wrote here -- this list that they gave you, they say that

 8    this report was written to avoid embarrassment in view of the expected

 9    ICRC inspection.  Where does the document say that and where does this

10    transpire from?  I think this is absolutely inadmissible and cannot be

11    done.  And this is not the first time, except that perhaps I sometimes

12    fail to mention it.  But it does not transpire anywhere, either from the

13    English or from the Croatian text.  Unfortunately, it is not the first

14    time for the Prosecutor to do something like that.

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, that is a good point.  We would like to hear some

16    explanations from the Prosecutor.

17            MR. BOS:  Your Honours, first of all, the description of the

18    exhibit is not the evidence.  I mean, the evidence is in.  We show the

19    document and -- so as far as the Prosecution is concerned, Your Honours

20    can read the document and assess what the document is about.  And if the

21    description is inaccurate, so be it, but the document is in there as

22    well.  So it's not that we try to mislead the Judges.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  You may proceed, but be careful with your

24    questions.

25            MR. BOS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 14681

 1       Q.   Witness, I'd like you now to look at five exhibits, and four of

 2    them are reports on the Heliodrom, on Gabela, Livno, Ljubuski, and one is

 3    a chart, an overall chart, on the overall conditions of these four

 4    centres.  And the exhibits I'd like you to look at are P686.2, which is

 5    the chart; and then Exhibit P698.1, which is the report on the Heliodrom;

 6    P699.1, which is the report on Gabela; P700.2, which is the report on

 7    Livno; and P702.2, which is the report on Ljubuski.

 8            Witness, there are a lot of documents which are going to be shown

 9    to you now, and I basically ask you to glance through them and confirm to

10    us that you actually drafted these reports or actually -- or indeed signed

11    these reports.  Could you please do that and then I'll ask some further

12    questions.

13            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

14            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, but the

15    witness should first read those reports to properly confirm the contents

16    and the signature.  So could he be given some time to read them so that he

17    can give valid answers to my learned friend?  Thank you.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I think so, because Mr. Bos said that "I

19    basically asked you to glance through them and confirm to us that you

20    actually drafted those reports," so the witness should have time to read

21    those documents.

22            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, but while

23    the witness is reading, let us try to resolve under dilemma while we are

24    waiting for him.  I'm very curious and very -- and I ask Your Honours

25    about the source of this document.  It says here that it is the Croatian

Page 14682

 1    government, and I affirm publicly in this courtroom that it cannot be the

 2    Croatian government.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Well, you have a chance to challenge the authenticity

 4    of this document by asking some questions about the sources of this

 5    document, but first of all we would like to hear whether this witness has

 6    signed this document himself or not.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are so many documents.  I'd

 8    need at least a few hours to read them.  So I merely look at the

 9    signatures.  Yes, this is my signature, indicating also the duty I held,

10    and from it you can see that it's mostly the prevention.  I just looked at

11    it quickly.  Yes, this is my signature, as far as signatures is concerned.

12       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... exhibit you just looked at,

13    the number, please.

14       A.   Give me a better copy.  1-164/93, of the 30th of November, 1993,

15    P702.2.

16       Q.   Witness, on the top page of each exhibit, on the English version

17    at least, there is -- there appears an exhibit number in the right-hand

18    corner, and that's the number I need to know.  And maybe the Court deputy

19    can assist, can assist in giving me the exhibit number.

20            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, I can.  The exhibit number that he is looking

21    at this moment is P702.2.

22            MR. BOS:  Okay.

23       Q.   This exhibit, is it correct, Witness, that this is an exhibit,

24    this is a report on Ljubuski and that you actually signed this report?

25       A.   The signature is mine.  Now I look at other people who did the

Page 14683

 1    round with me, Srecko Tomic, yes, that's a person from Ljubuski, yes, it

 2    has to do with Ljubuski.  Yes, please.  It is my signature and it is

 3    Ljubuski.

 4       Q.   And is it indeed your report on Ljubuski or would you need more

 5    time to read it?

 6       A.   Well, Your Honours, of course I need it.  The signature is mine,

 7    the number, yes, no question about it, but let me have a look.  If you

 8    want me to comment on every specific item, perhaps it would be better.

 9    Shall I comment on them?

10       Q.   No, no, Witness, I don't want you to comment on them.  I'm just

11    asking you whether this was the report that you issued on Ljubuski.

12    That's my simple question, and you can just say yes or no.

13       A.   Yes, I said so, yes.

14       Q.   Thank you.

15       A.   I have already told you so.

16       Q.   You can leave that report aside and that's the only information I

17    need to know from you on this report.  And maybe the Court deputy can give

18    you now the next exhibit.  Maybe let's go one by one.  If the witness

19    could be shown P700.2, and the same question applies here, Witness.  Is

20    that your signature at the end of the last page of the report, and is it

21    indeed your report on the detention centre in Livno?

22       A.   Your Honours, yes, this is unquestionably my signature.  Now, when

23    I look at people who were together with me, yes, it is definitely Livno.

24    But if I may, just one sentence, this is yet another proof that I, as a

25    person, knew that sooner or later, time would come when everything would

Page 14684

 1    fall in its place and that there would be such an institution of high

 2    moral qualities and high professional skills such as you who would finally

 3    tell us the truth, because unfortunately, there is a thousand and one

 4    truths to this day, and I shall be very happy when the real truth is

 5    known.

 6       Q.   Then could you look at the next exhibit, which is P699.1?  And

 7    again, is it your report on the Gabela camp, and is it your signature at

 8    the last page of the report?

 9       A.   The signature is unquestionably mine.  The beginning here is very

10    poorly copied, but it's Gabela, yes, I can see that, and I can see some of

11    the fellow doctors, yes, people who worked there, or this regiment, Knez

12    Domagoj and yes, I know that they worked in Gabela.

13       Q.   Thank you.  And if you could now look at Exhibit P6 --

14            JUDGE CLARK:  Sorry, Mr. Bos, can I ask a question now?  Maybe you

15    know the answer or maybe the witness does, but when we are looking at the

16    reports in relation to the conditions in the various detention centres, a

17    distinction seems to be made between a ward and a detainee.  Could you

18    clarify that just for my curiosity?  At first I thought it was a bad

19    translation of a warden or a warder, but it's clearly somebody who is kept

20    at the Heliodrom.  Could you deal with that, please?

21            MR. BOS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I actually came across the same

22    question in preparing this witness.

23       Q.   Witness, in some of the reports, you're referring to the term

24    "ward," and from the context it seems that using the term "ward" is

25    referring to a detainee, but is there a difference between a ward and a

Page 14685

 1    prisoner or a ward and a detainee?  Could you clarify that?

 2       A.   Well, you see, the term that I heard from Professor Lang [phoen]

 3    for the centre for preventive isolation, a ward or a detainee, was to me,

 4    if I look at him from the medical point of view, was a man who was sick or

 5    a man who was healthy.  I did not care, as a doctor, into which category

 6    he was placed by you or somebody else.  My question was how to help him

 7    not to fall ill, how to help him get well, how to enable him to leave that

 8    place as quickly as possible.  And to talk about categories to me, as a

 9    doctor, that is incompatible.

10       Q.   So if I understand your answer correctly, for you there is no

11    distinction between a ward and a detainee?

12       A.   No.  Allow me.  For me there is only a person who happens to be

13    there, who needs treatment, or who needs to be given, or the environment

14    or food or something, so that he doesn't fall ill.  I wouldn't call him

15    either this or that.  It's a man in need, a man in distress, a man who has

16    been badly traumatised, mentally or otherwise, and I'm there to help him

17    either by prevention or by supplying therapy for him or using

18    psychological treatment.

19       Q.   Now, do you still have Exhibit P699.1 in front of you?

20       A.   Yes.  The lady is looking for it.

21       Q.   I think one of the reasons why Her Honour raised this question, if

22    you go under item number 3, which is in your version the third page, the

23    B/C/S version, you talk about the accommodation of wards and detainees.

24    Now, in understanding your answers, would the difference between a ward

25    and a detainee be that a ward is somebody who is either physically or

Page 14686

 1    mentally ill and a detainee isn't?  Or could you please clarify that to us

 2    again?

 3       A.   Let me tell you, it is the same.  In principle, it is the same,

 4    that is a ward or a detainee.  It's the same.  Because I, as a doctor, or

 5    any one of us cannot know under such -- under which conditions he's there

 6    until he comes to you as a sick or a healthy person.  So it's the same.

 7    The term is the same.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

 9            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps -- perhaps I

10    might join.  In the Croatian original, it says, " sticenika-uhicenika"

11    that is "ward-detainee."  There is no the word "and," there is no

12    connective.  And my colleague says in English there is no the word "and."

13    It is not "wards and detainees," but "wards-detainees."  So grammatically

14    and linguistically, it falls into the same category.

15            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Krsnik, it may say "wards-detainees" on the

16    introduction to the paragraph, but in the narrative it uses the word "and"

17    rather than "dash."  And I was wondering -- perhaps the doctor could hear

18    my question:  I was wondering if a distinction was made between somebody

19    who was a ward, who was kept in the Heliodrom allegedly as a preventive

20    measure and somebody who was held in the Heliodrom because he was a member

21    of the Armija.  Would he be aware of that?  Was that why there was a

22    distinction?  In other words, some people were soldiers and some were

23    civilians?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Clark, if you look

25    at the second page, where it says, "Nutrition" or "Diet," you will see,

Page 14687

 1    "Wards-detainees are getting everything that is necessary."  And as I

 2    have said, as Mr. Krsnik has said, it is "ward-detainee," and if you look

 3    again at the next page, it again, with a dash, under number 3, under

 4    number 4, it is again "wards-detainees," "wards-detainees,"

 5    "wards-detainees."  On the next page, again, and that makes me very

 6    happy, and I take great pride in this, that there are regularly -- that

 7    the preventive medical measures are regularly enforced and that the

 8    medical supplies are much better than before, and that additional

 9    quantities of the necessary medical supplies have been received from the

10    International Red Cross.  So it is "ward-detainee" throughout the text.

11            MR. BOS:

12       Q.   So Witness, can we understand that you don't know whether there is

13    any difference between "ward" and "detainee"?

14       A.   Your Honours, there was no difference from my aspect, and what the

15    military bodies did or meant, you maybe know but I don't.

16            MR. BOS:  Judge Clark, I hope this answers your question.

17            JUDGE CLARK:  I think the witness has done his best.  Thank you.

18            MR. BOS:

19       Q.   Witness, could you have a look now at Exhibit P698.1, which is a

20    report on the Heliodrom?  And again, can I ask you is this a report that

21    you drafted and is it your signature at the last page of the report?

22       A.   This is my signature.  I always sign my name in the same manner,

23    so whenever you need my signature, it's very easy to recognise.  This is

24    about Heliodrom, nine pages, and I can see the names of Dr. Pero Maric, is

25    a person who was a member of the main medical corps, Dr. Bozic and

Page 14688

 1    Dr. Nedjelko Hadzic, who was a Bosniak physician in Heliodrom.  So this is

 2    about Heliodrom.

 3       Q.   Very well.  And finally, and I will commence with a few more

 4    questions on that after you again confirmed the authenticity of Exhibit

 5    P686.2.  This exhibit is a chart.  And my question again is, Witness, did

 6    you draw up this chart and is it your signature on the bottom of the

 7    chart?

 8       A.   If you have seen my signature so far, then it is clear to you that

 9    this is my document, but this table, I did it for myself.  It shouldn't

10    appear anywhere.  It must have been stolen from me because this drawing I

11    used when I went to see Dr. Bagaric, to discuss some things with him.  I

12    don't think this drawing should not be publicly exposed.  Somebody must

13    have taken it from my documentation.  I may bore you when I say that I

14    knew that this would happen and I wanted some things to be documented and

15    presented to people.

16       Q.   But, Witness, you confirm that you draw up this chart, and can I

17    ask you that the conclusions that you draw in this chart, are these based

18    on the reports which you just -- which were just shown to you?

19       A.   Mostly yes.

20       Q.   And if a similar chart would have been made in the summer of

21    1993 - because this chart was drawn up in -- on the 24th of November,

22    1993 - would there be a great difference on the assessments on the various

23    conditions?

24       A.   Your Honours, this is a table that gives just the aggregate

25    figures.  It doesn't show any dates.  It is just my overall view of the

Page 14689

 1    problem.  You know what the cumulation of data is.  I write a lot and I

 2    accumulate data.  So this was not a status presence.  It was not the

 3    present state.  It was just an overview up to then of what should be done,

 4    where should this be done and when.  And some things may have improved but

 5    this is just a general view.  It is just a cross-section, a general view

 6    of the situation.

 7       Q.   Witness, if you say that some things may have improved, let's

 8    focus on the Heliodrom.  You were shown before an exhibit P618, which was

 9    an earlier report on the Heliodrom.  Now, if you look at this chart, would

10    the proposed measures in your first report on the Heliodrom of the 30th of

11    September, would those measures have been included in your assessment on

12    the Heliodrom in November, at the end of November, 1993?  In other words,

13    any of the measures that you proposed in your first report in September,

14    would these measures have already been taken and would the conditions in

15    the Heliodrom in November have been better than in September?

16       A.   Your Honours, yes.  For example, medical care, health care, in the

17    report that I drafted in September, it says, under 2, under the proposed

18    measures, it says, "Set up the hospital in the centre."  This was true at

19    the time.  Moreover, under 3, "In the hospital, follow hospital

20    principles, principles of work in the hospital," and this was what was

21    done.  Under item 4, when we did set up the hospital, all the serious

22    patients were transported there to the war hospital by the car that

23    belonged to the unit.  We had problems there because Heliodrom was on the

24    front line.  Many were afraid that the car, while taking the patients to

25    the hospital, may become the target, and that that could result in a

Page 14690

 1    number of wounded.  As far as the cleaning of the perimeter is concerned,

 2    that is under 5, in Heliodrom, disinfection, under disinfection, there

 3    were three --

 4       Q.   I'm going to ask you specific questions on this table, item by

 5    item, so maybe you're getting ahead of us.  Let me ask you another

 6    question first.  Besides the four detention centres which you reported on,

 7    on this list, it says also -- it mentioned Duvno and Prozor, but there is

 8    no assessment on the condition of these two centres.  Why is that?

 9       A.   You see, in the war, there are -- there is a lot of information

10    but also a lot of misinformation.  Dr. Bagaric and I learned that in these

11    two towns, there were centres.  Dr. Bagaric wrote to the commander of the

12    area asking him to state whether there was a detention centre there.  The

13    answer came that there was none.  I personally went to the chief of

14    medical staff in Duvno, that is in Tomislavgrad, Dr. Peric.  I also went

15    to Prozor and I was told that these centres did not exist.  I wrote this

16    and Dr. Bagaric raised this issue.  To this very day, I don't have any

17    clearer information and I don't think that there were any centres there.

18       Q.   Witness, we heard evidence from several witnesses about two other

19    camps which are not mentioned here, which is the Vojno camp and the

20    Dretelj camp.  Have you ever heard of these two detention centres, the

21    Vojno and Dretelj?

22       A.   I heard of Dretelj, and as for Vojno, this is the first time I

23    hear this.

24       Q.   So let's focus, then, on Dretelj.  You've said you've heard about

25    the Dretelj camp.  Why isn't Dretelj on this chart?

Page 14691

 1       A.   This was November 1993, the end of November 1993, and I believe

 2    that Dretelj stopped existing long before that.

 3       Q.   Fair enough.  But if you look, then, at Rakitno and Dobrkovici,

 4    those two camps are mentioned, and there it says "does not exist any

 5    more."  Why, then, not Dretelj and a line does not exist any more?

 6       A.   For a very simple reason.  If Dobrkovici, the camp existed for two

 7    or three days, not more, and I was called there personally.  Dr. Bagaric

 8    ordered me to go there and tell my colleagues in Siroki Brijeg what should

 9    be done.  A few days later this camp stopped existing.  What happened to

10    the people, where they were taken, I don't know to this very day.

11            The same is true of Rakitno, which was -- if there was any optimum

12    humanity that could be achieved anywhere, that was in Rakitno.  This also

13    lasted for a short time.  I'm sure you have reports on Rakitno.  And I

14    believe that this could be an example of how things should be done if they

15    need to be done.  So Rakitno could be a good example of how things are

16    done.  As a military physician, when I was reading about camps and I

17    was -- when I was watching the movie Bridge on the River Kwai, I found it

18    appalling.  Rakitno could be the pride of a higher civilisation, such as

19    Sweden and others, not to mention the country as primitive as ours.  So

20    Rakitno could be a good example.

21       Q.   Witness, I'd now like to go over with you the various conditions

22    mentioned in the top row, and I'll start with the potable water.  And I

23    want you to focus only on Heliodrom.  Let's leave the other camps aside.

24            You rate the potable water at the Heliodrom as good.  Now, let me

25    first ask you:  Did this condition improve?  Was the potable water the

Page 14692

 1    same in the summer of 1993 and in November of 1993, or did the condition

 2    actually improve with regard to the water?

 3       A.   Your Honours, I'm sure you are not familiar with the situation

 4    with water in Mostar.  The water supply was compromised, and for a long

 5    time there was no water in the town of Mostar.  Personally, in my

 6    building, I had to go to a nearby well to get water, and it took me about

 7    an hour to fill a 20-litre bucket.  So the situation with water was

 8    impossible at the time.

 9            Later on, I repeat, as a military person, I knew that in Heliodrom

10    there was a water supply facility which used to be used by the former

11    JNA.  I knew that there was an aluminum-producing facility and another

12    well.  And owing to that, and having been an authority in military

13    matters, I managed to put these two sources of water in use, and that's

14    how Heliodrom was supplied with water.

15            Another thing.  I believe that you know that Heliodrom is supplied

16    with water from town.  My personal order was that in one point -- and in

17    Heliodrom, chlorine in water was controlled three times, and this was

18    done.  And there is another order issued by Dr. Bagaric which said that

19    the ABC unit was also supposed to control the water, and that also that

20    the medical staff in the unit should also control water.  Because you will

21    allow that epidemics very often arise from the water, from the

22    contaminated water, not only in wartime, but also in peacetime.  Napoleon

23    lost Egypt due to this, and when the medical --

24       Q.   I'm sorry.  I'm going to interrupt you.  I'm really going to

25    request you to be a bit shorter with your answers.  Your answers have been

Page 14693

 1    very elaborated and we're getting a little bit in time constraints if you

 2    keep giving these long answers.

 3            Let me ask you one thing about what you've just said.  You said

 4    that you managed to put some of the sources of water in use at the

 5    Heliodrom.  When did you actually manage to do this?  And I'm asking for a

 6    time period.  Was this in the autumn?  Do you recall the month when this

 7    actually -- when you managed to do this?

 8       A.   I think it was sometime in June or July.  I apologise, Your

 9    Honours, but I believe you have to know the situation.  Thirty per cent of

10    the water in town was lost because the pipes were broken, and the

11    epidemics could be broken not only in Heliodrom but also in town itself.

12    Allow me to say that I know some things in the area of medicine, and I

13    have to give you some elaborate answer so that you don't ask of some other

14    witnesses the same questions, because I consider myself to be an expert in

15    that area.

16       Q.   Witness, do you know how much water a prisoner at the Heliodrom

17    would get per day?

18       A.   I can't give you the exact quantity, but you have to know that

19    there were water cuts in town as well, due to the losses, and that the

20    concentration of chlorine in the water was not 0.1 or 0.2, but -- which

21    would be normal; it was 0.4, 0.5.  I don't know about the quantities.  I

22    myself did not have enough water.  I would very often reek of sweat

23    because I did not have enough water to wash myself.  And don't

24    misunderstand me.  Don't get me wrong.  My wife also did not have water to

25    wash herself.  So what could we do?  It was war.  We could not wash

Page 14694

 1    ourselves.

 2       Q.   So am I correct if you say here that you -- if you label water as

 3    being good, you're talking more about the quality of water rather than the

 4    quantity of water?  Is that a fair statement?

 5       A.   I was talking about both, about both the quantity and the quality

 6    of water.  But this is a cumulative report.  On the 10th of May or on the

 7    11th of May, it was not so.  It was much worse.  But later on things did

 8    improve.  When you draw a table, you can't come up with an ideal table.  I

 9    wanted to draw a table that everybody could understand, even those people

10    who never were members of medical units.

11       Q.   Very well.  Let's move on to the next item, alimentation.  Now,

12    again you label it as good.  But in your report on the Heliodrom, which is

13    Exhibit P698.1, you're rather critical on this aspect, on the

14    alimentation, and you conclude that there's insufficient quantity and

15    variety of food; isn't that correct?  If you want to look at the report

16    again, it's Exhibit 698.1.

17            Witness, if you look at the report and look at the proposed

18    measures under item 2, there are a number of measures which you propose

19    with regard to the food.  Isn't it fair that if you report -- it's

20    making -- requesting all these measures, that it's a bit strange that you

21    would label the alimentation as being good at the Heliodrom?

22       A.   Let me tell you one thing:  I told you that this table was

23    cumulative.  But you are just -- you're putting things out of their

24    context.  And it surprises me that you didn't see this, that on page 2,

25    third paragraph, all the requirements of the medical and supply services

Page 14695

 1    have been attained.  All the people were checked for epidemics.  The

 2    control samples were preserved.  The DDD measures were carried out

 3    permanently.  There was a regular control by the medical and supplies

 4    services.  And then there is also -- the food eaten by everybody is the

 5    same.  The wards, inmates who were there and who were in contact with the

 6    food were -- had been examined.  I think that this is an example of how

 7    things should be done.  So some of them are today my friends.  People who

 8    worked there were happy for working there.  As for prevention measures,

 9    let me tell you that my standards were always higher.  I thought that if

10    my report portrays things in a somewhat worse light, then there is more

11    room for improvement.  As for the food, I was hungry for a time.  My

12    children were hungry.  We didn't have the money.  So you have to be aware

13    of that.

14       Q.   Witness, can I take you to the top of page 6 of your report, and

15    it's in the English on page 4, and it's the last paragraph before it

16    starts with the proposed measures.  And I'll read that paragraph out to

17    you:

18            "By a random sampling method, it was established that about 85 per

19    cent of the wards were undernourished, the average loss of body weight

20    being about 15 kilogrammes.  It was observed that the wards assigned to

21    physical labour were mostly of normal weight because of increased food."

22            THE REGISTRAR:  What page is it on the B/C/S?

23            MR. BOS:  Page 6 on the B/C/S version.

24            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.

25            MR. BOS:  The top of the page.

Page 14696

 1       Q.   Now, Witness, if you conclude that the average loss of body weight

 2    for 85 per cent of the detainees was about 15 kilogrammes, is it then fair

 3    to label alimentation as being good?

 4            THE WITNESS:  Where is this?

 5            THE REGISTRAR:  I have given him -- okay.  Found it now.

 6            MR. BOS:  It's Exhibit P698.1, page 6 on the B/C/S version.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, he has it.

 8            MR. BOS:

 9       Q.   Witness, have you read the paragraph?  Do you have the paragraph

10    in front of you?

11       A.   [Inaudible]

12       Q.   Now, my question is -- my question is:  How can you label

13    alimentation as being good if the average loss of weight of the detainees

14    was about 15 kilogrammes?

15       A.   In that period I weighed 67 kilogrammes, and now I weigh 79.

16    That's number 1.  Number 2:  You can see on the item 2 that we tried

17    engaging all the international institutions, starting with the

18    International Red Cross and others, to help us with the aliment.  You can

19    see here it says that there are two meals a day and that the third meal is

20    being introduced.  Nobody weighed these people before.  They must have

21    lost weight.  It's indisputable, for various reasons.  One of them was

22    insufficient food, and the second reason was physical conditions.

23    Detainees or people who are confined to a certain area are often known to

24    lose weight.  But let me stress again:  I always overstressed some things

25    in order to appeal to military, political, international organisations.  I

Page 14697

 1    was not interested in this or that or the other.  The only concern I had

 2    was how to help people.  But again I repeat that everybody in Heliodrom

 3    ate the same food, across the board, inmates and their guards alike.

 4       Q.   Witness, could you look at the paragraph above that paragraph

 5    which I just read out to you, and it uses the term -- it says the

 6    following:

 7            "We should stress once again that the above breakdown of medical

 8    conditions was put together by doctors who are in preventive isolation."

 9            Now, in several of your reports you use the term "preventive

10    isolation."  What does that mean?

11       A.   I'll tell you -- I'll illustrate you that by my own example.  In

12    August 1991 I educated Muslim physicians, Bosniaks, my friends.  I

13    educated them and taught them things that I learned in the army.  And as I

14    was crossing the old bridge, there was a military point there manned by

15    the BH Army, and a fellow citizen of Mostar told me, "Don't go to the

16    other side.  In Mostar, nobody is going to do you any harm, because we

17    know you as an honest person, as a good person.  But there are a lot of

18    refugees from Gacko and Nevesinje, and as soon as they see you wearing

19    your uniform they will consider you a potential enemy."

20            So what is the meaning of this word "preventive"?  I experienced

21    several such incidents, and after that, when I say "preventive isolation,"

22    that is prevention against retaliation.  If somebody is killed, if

23    somebody is -- if somebody's property is stolen, I do not justify it as

24    isolation.  This was to help people, because some people did not have

25    highly sophisticated consciousness.  Some people did not kill for -- they

Page 14698

 1    killed for different reasons, and that is what I meant under the word

 2    "preventive isolation," and that's how I was explained that word by

 3    Dr. Bagaric.

 4       Q.   So detainees who were there under preventive isolation, they were

 5    actually there for their own good; is that what you're saying?

 6       A.   These were doctors.  A doctor is never an inmate, a detainee.  A

 7    doctor is a doctor, protected by all international conventions, and no

 8    matter which side they belong to, they have to treat people, to put their

 9    medical knowledge to a good use.  For example, Dr. Stranjak could go home

10    whenever he wanted to go home.  Dr. Hadzic, for example, he wanted to be

11    affiliated with the army.  Before that he was the doctor, the physician,

12    of the Veles football club.  His father was affiliated with the former

13    UDBA.  Maybe somebody, an extremist, would have killed him for stupid

14    reasons, and I'm afraid something like that may have happened.  Whenever

15    Dr. Hadzic wanted to leave the camp, he could, and he indeed did,

16    eventually, when he wanted to do so.

17       Q.   Witness, I have a few more questions on that last paragraph, when

18    it says:  "It was observed that the wards assigned to physical labour were

19    mostly of normal weight because of increased food."  Did you know that

20    wards were taken out for physical labour?

21            THE REGISTRAR:  What page is that on?

22            MR. BOS:  It's on the same page, page number 6.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw that.  I heard that some

24    were taken.  Personally, I said to my colleague, "Bozic, try to prevent

25    this.  It's a war crime."  I asked where these people were.  I met some

Page 14699

 1    people, and maybe for fear, or for other reasons, they told me they didn't

 2    go there.  Some kept quiet, and from that I understood that they were

 3    taken there.  What they did, I don't know, but later on I heard that they

 4    had been digging trenches or what have you.  At that moment, I didn't have

 5    any personal knowledge, but I know that I told Dr. Bagaric that these

 6    people, if they existed, if they were taken for labour, that they had to

 7    be protected, because they were a product of a misunderstanding, and that

 8    was the worst form of maltreatment and harassment.  If you have to do

 9    something against your better judgement, then that is the worst form of

10    harassment.

11       Q.   Witness, the fact that prisoners who were assigned to physical

12    labour were given more food, did it have anything to do with the fact that

13    the HVO wanted these prisoners to be stronger, to be fit to perform

14    labour, and is it in fact true that the prisoners remained in detention --

15            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

16            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is

17    speculation.  A speculation in the question asks for speculation in the

18    answer.

19            We heard that a minute ago.  Just a moment, (redacted).

20            JUDGE LIU:  Well, it seems to me that the answer is quite obvious.

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please.  I apologise.

22    Can we redact this?  Because I may have revealed the identity of the

23    witness.  Witness, we have to be careful.  I just said one sentence or one

24    word, but we have to be careful, I remind you.

25            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We will redact that word.

Page 14700

 1            And Mr. Bos, I think the answer is quite obvious.  There is no

 2    need to pursue it in that direction.  It is time for a break, and we will

 3    break now and we will resume at 2.30 this afternoon.  I hope you could

 4    finish your cross examination as soon as possible, as we resume this

 5    afternoon.

 6            MR. BOS:  Yes, although I am a bit -- I have difficulties, given

 7    the long answers of the witness.  I fully expected to finish by now.

 8            JUDGE LIU:  Of course.  We will rise until 2.30 this afternoon.

 9                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.

10                          --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Bos, please continue.

12            MR. BOS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13       Q.   Witness NU, I have a couple more questions to ask you about the

14    two documents which you had in front of you before the break, which is the

15    table, Exhibit P686.2, and your report on the Heliodrom, Exhibit P698.1.

16    So I would ask the registry to provide you with these two exhibits again,

17    if you don't already have them.

18            Witness, going back to the table, could you take the table in

19    front of you again?  Do you have that in front of you?

20       A.   Yes, I do.

21       Q.   Now, Witness, you have five conditions, and I'll mention them:

22    the clothing and the footwear, the heating and the hot water, the personal

23    hygiene, the accommodation and the sanitation, which you labeled as being

24    as does not satisfy.  Now, my question is what does it mean when you say

25    that these conditions do not satisfy?  Does that mean that they don't

Page 14701

 1    satisfy the standards of conditions required by international humanitarian

 2    law?

 3            JUDGE LIU:  Yes Mr. Krsnik?

 4            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this

 5    witness is not qualified to answer this.  It would be -- it should be

 6    answered by people who are familiar with international law, international

 7    humanitarian law.  I believe the witness has repeatedly answered this

 8    question, at least in his view, that is he has already answered it to the

 9    best of his ability.  This question requires the answer by a legal

10    expert.

11            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, we understand that this report was

12    filed by the witness himself and in this report he says it is not

13    satisfactory for the conditions.  I think the Prosecutor is just asking a

14    question to this witness to explain the meaning of why he says so in this

15    report.

16            MR. BOS:  Yes, Your Honours, and if I may add, he testified that

17    he actually lectured on international humanitarian law at the Heliodrom.

18    So I think he must have had some knowledge about the Geneva Conventions.

19            JUDGE LIU:  We will see what the witness will tell us.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could you find,

21    please, my report number 01-90/93 of the 20th of July, 1993, in which --

22    from which you can see the signatures of Mr. Bozic, and you can see that

23    at that moment, so I repeat the 20th of July, 1993, when the inspection

24    was carried out in the presence of Mr. Bozic, Dr. Hadzic --

25            THE INTERPRETER:  And we could not hear the rest of the sentence.

Page 14702

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, when to anyone in

 2    the Zagreb school or in London, in somewhere, we would find at least six

 3    cases of scabies, which means that the personal hygiene was much better,

 4    and I have already told you that I deliberately, on purpose, consciously,

 5    exaggerated things because I wanted to accord them more weight.  Perhaps I

 6    might call to account to it, but I hoped that in this way these matters

 7    would be given attention and solved.  In other words, I wanted to provide

 8    the maximum possible conditions.  If that figure says 2.100 people, and I

 9    won't go into that, we've already talked about it, how can you then

10    discuss six cases of scabies?

11            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry.  I'm looking

12    for this report.  I see the date is the 20th of July, 1993, and I do not

13    know whether it was an oversight, but I have not received this report.  I

14    do not have a single report dated the 20th of July, 1993.

15            MR. BOS:  Your Honours, neither did I submit any report of that

16    date.  I'm also a bit at a loss to which document the witness has actually

17    been referring.  So maybe the court deputy could assist and tell us which

18    document the witness is looking at.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  I'm checking now.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Well, certainly we don't have that report at our hands

21    at this moment.  But Mr. Bos, you may ask some questions around this line

22    to make things more clear for us.

23            MR. BOS:  On this report of the 10th [sic] of July, Your Honours?

24    Because ... Actually, yes.  What I would like to know from the witness:

25       Q.   Witness, which report are you referring to when you were

Page 14703

 1    mentioning a report dated July 1993?  And maybe the court deputy could

 2    assist you and give the exhibit number of this report.

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  I am -- actually, I'm looking at the document.  It

 4    is from his documentation, and I told him ... [inaudible].

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, the interpreters can barely

 6    understand what the registrar is saying.

 7            MR. BOS:  Madam Registrar, you would have to repeat what you were

 8    saying, because we couldn't hear your answer.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Can you hear me now?

10            THE INTERPRETER:  There are interruptions and it is very difficult

11    to follow.

12            THE REGISTRAR:  How about now?

13            MR. BOS:  This is much better, yes.

14            THE REGISTRAR:  Okay.  The witness has brought his documentation,

15    and I told him he is not allowed to do this.

16            MR. BOS:  So if I understand you correctly, the witness is looking

17    at his own documentation, which is not the documentation which we provided

18    to the witness, not one of the exhibits, but his own documentation?

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Exactly.

20            MR. BOS:  In that case, Your Honour, I have no idea what document

21    he's looking at, because it's his own document.

22            JUDGE LIU:  So you may re-ask your question before.

23            MR. BOS:

24       Q.   So Witness, let --

25            THE REGISTRAR:  I can tell you, though, that it's a stamped

Page 14704

 1    document signed by Stanko Bozic.

 2            MR. BOS:  The thing is, if we don't have this document here in

 3    Court, it's very difficult to discuss this document.

 4       Q.   Witness, I understand you have personal notes in front of you and

 5    you brought your own documents, but we cannot use those documents in these

 6    proceedings because we do not have those documents here and they're not

 7    admitted as exhibits.  So I would like you to take away those documents

 8    and focus on the exhibits which we have provided you, the Prosecution

 9    exhibits.

10            THE REGISTRAR:  I've explained that to the witness.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the period of time

12    that has elapsed is very long.  I have told you that I knew that this time

13    would come, and I've kept all the documents.  You have a selection of

14    documents.  I know nothing about them.  But allow me.  This document is

15    just as valid as any other, because it was signed by Mr. Bozic.  On the

16    other hand, this is a document with a stamp, a document which says what

17    was done and what was found, and that is the answer to the question about

18    the personal hygiene.  This document shows how strict I was, how much I

19    exaggerated things in order to improve the conditions.  Because if you

20    find only six cases of scabies, that is nothing.  These are sporadic

21    cases.  And at the same time, Your Honours, it says, and you probably

22    know, even know it, even though you do not have an adequate medical

23    knowledge, just as I do not have a legal education, that the scabies is

24    transferred by -- transmitted by contact and poor accommodation, which

25    means that the accommodation was not all that bad or else we would have

Page 14705

 1    more scabies cases.

 2            I thought that you had all the documents, and I'd like you to have

 3    them, because then it would be much better.  Because I also want the

 4    truth.  But at any rate, thank you very much for having me here, and I

 5    wish that some day all of us, with our full names, bear our full

 6    responsibility.  And thank you very much that in my country, in the name

 7    of the dead, in the name of the killed, in the name of the wounded, the

 8    truth will eventually surface.  Thank you.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Well, I understand that your answer is that you

10    exaggerated things in order to improve the conditions.  Am I right?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, yes.  You are absolutely

12    right.  And thank you for understanding me so well.

13            MR. BOS:

14       Q.   Witness, if that's your answer, who did you issue this table to?

15    If you say you exaggerated your assessments, for whom did you exaggerate

16    this?

17            MR. BOS:  I think we lost connection or something, because the

18    image is fixed.

19                          [Technical difficulty]

20            JUDGE LIU:  Maybe the telephone line is cut off.

21                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we have the connection back.  You may proceed,

23    Mr. Bos.

24            MR. BOS:

25       Q.   Witness, can you hear me?

Page 14706

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  We cannot hear the witness.

 2            MR. BOS:

 3       Q.   Witness, it appears that you can hear us but we cannot hear you.

 4    Can you say something again so that we can pick up your voice?

 5       A.   I can hear you very well.  And how you hear me, well, you know

 6    that.

 7       Q.   Witness, we hear you now.  Thank you.  Let me just ask you one

 8    question about the medical care which you've labeled as "very good" in

 9    the table, and I'd like to you look at your report again on the Heliodrom,

10    exhibit P698.1 and look at page number 5, English page number 4.

11            You have that in front of you, Witness?

12       A.   I do, yes.

13       Q.   Now, there is a whole list of detainees grouped into various --

14    well, grouped into various diseases that they suffer.  Do you have that in

15    front of you?

16            THE REGISTRAR:  What page is that on in B/C/S?

17            MR. BOS:  That's the B/C/S page number 5; in English, page number

18    3 and page number 4.

19       Q.   Now, fifth on the bottom of that list, you indicate that there

20    were 55 wards recovering from wounds.  Do you see that?

21       A.   I do.

22       Q.   Did you inquire how these people got wounded or injured?

23       A.   Your Honours, if you look at this list, you can see at the bottom

24    that it was established on the basis of case histories, that is on the

25    basis of what the patient said, from people who naturally did not have

Page 14707

 1    adequate documentation and therefore everything would be taken with a

 2    reservation.  But will you please look at page 4?  Owing to the dedicated

 3    work, no incidents have been proven and nothing could be done that would

 4    affect adversely the health of the wards.  That is, nothing could happen

 5    that would produce an adverse effect on them.  On the other hand, if we

 6    look at the hygienic situation, the epidemiological situation on the

 7    bottom of page 4, the last passage says that only sporadic cases were

 8    recorded without any epidemiological causal chain.  That is, Dr. Hadzic

 9    and all the Croats who worked there and all of us worked so well there

10    that there wasn't even a theoretical possibility of an epidemic breaking

11    out.

12       Q.   Witness, isn't it true that these 55 wards who were recovering

13    from wounds were injured at the confrontation line while performing forced

14    labour outside the camp?

15       A.   I hear that from you.  I am not in possession of that

16    information.  This is the first time I hear this.  But allow me, Your

17    Honour, and Your Honours, look, see, we've even drawn up a list so that we

18    could monitor the state of health.  Commissions were set up.  And on page

19    4, it says that these people - the passage, the fourth passage on page 4 -

20    that they were being sent to the regional hospital in Mostar and that a

21    maximum use of the medical supply and transports, and then in the war

22    hospital, after that, the Heliodrom.  That is, we even set up a commission

23    to have these people treated without delay.

24       Q.   Witness, were there any women at the Heliodrom?  Female

25    detainees?

Page 14708

 1       A.   I did not see them but I heard there were about a dozen women, and

 2    one of Dr. Bagaric's orders was that women - although once again I say I'm

 3    not legally educated; women can also commit crimes - women below the age

 4    of 18 and over the age of 60, all severely ill, all those who need care,

 5    hospital care, should be released immediately.  If you look at the

 6    diagnosis, the lumbago, if you look at them, there are ten of them, and

 7    I'm also suffering from it and it almost happened that I couldn't be here

 8    but I realised how important it was for me to be at the Tribunal and

 9    therefore, I came.  You see, even Mr. Krsnik does not have documents

10    because I did not give them because all I care about is the truth

11    regardless of what it is, but the truth that will help you and that will

12    help me.

13       Q.   Witness, I'm going to show you one more exhibit and then we are

14    done.  And I'd like Madam Registrar to provide you Exhibit P630.2.

15       A.   Mr. President, I've seen something very important on page 4, on

16    page 4 of this document, if I may.  There is a regular --

17       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

18       A.   The one that we've just been talking about.  I mean it is very

19    important for you.  It is very important for you to know this.

20       Q.   Witness --

21       A.   Allow me, page 4, in English --

22       Q.   May I interrupt you?  I think --

23       A.   Yes, of course, by all means.

24       Q.   I think the Defence counsel can come back to that in redirect on

25    this issue.  So the Defence counsel will ask you to clarify whatever you

Page 14709

 1    want to clarify in redirect.

 2            I'd like you now to move to Exhibit P630.2.  Do you have that in

 3    front of you?

 4       A.   I do.

 5       Q.   Now, Witness, and you can glance through it but let me tell you

 6    this is a letter from Mr. Stanko Bozic addressed to the President,

 7    Mr. Mate Boban, and it's dated the 10th of October, 1993, and in this

 8    letter, Mr. Bozic expresses his concerns about numerous problems at the

 9    Heliodrom.  And I'd like you to direct your particular attention to item

10    number 2, which is the English page number 2 and B/C/S page number 2 as

11    well.  You have that in front of you?

12       A.   I do, yes.

13       Q.   Isn't it correct here that Mr. Bozic, under item 2, actually

14    describes several problem areas regarding the medical care at the

15    Heliodrom which you had assessed as being "very good" a few weeks

16    earlier?

17       A.   Your Honours, as far as I can gather, this document was sent only

18    to Mr. Boban because it is addressed to him only.  That is, neither

19    Dr. Bagaric nor I could have this document, and therefore I cannot say

20    anything about it objectively speaking, but I'll nevertheless try to

21    answer your question.

22            Item 2 under A, incorrect, because undoubtedly I was informed, and

23    I went there, and my colleagues, fellow physicians, they always told me

24    that we sent an ambulance whenever somebody needed to be taken to the

25    hospital.  Item B is absolutely inaccurate, it's completely wrong, that is

Page 14710

 1    not true.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  We could not get a part of the witness's

 3    answer.

 4       A.   In case of the medicines, if there were no medicines available in

 5    the warehouse, then the hospital didn't have them and the Heliodrom

 6    doesn't have it.  The in-patient unit was set up and there were beds there

 7    and all that, so that I definitely do not understand this because I

 8    absolutely stand by what I just said, that item B is inaccurate.  It could

 9    have happened, for instance, at some particular point in time that there

10    would be no medicines, but we were getting medicines from Croatia.  I had

11    the preventive medicines in sufficient quantities.  Whenever I needed them

12    I got them.  So I do not know what this is.  Perhaps somebody is washing

13    his hands because of something.

14       Q.   Sir, if I can address your attention to item 1.  Isn't it correct

15    that Mr. Bozic here reports on detainees still being taken out for forced

16    labour?  And we're talking about October 1993.  And isn't it true that

17    detainees were still taken out of the Heliodrom, notwithstanding any

18    concerns expressed by the Red Cross, in August 1993?

19       A.   Your Honours, how could I know that?  I don't know.  You say that

20    this was happening, but I don't know it.  If Bozic has written that, then

21    it is his moral responsibility.  I don't know.  And please do not think

22    that I do, as a doctor.  How could I know that?  This is terrible.  When I

23    hear that somebody is harassed, maltreated, that is a terrible thing for

24    me.  If somebody is taken for forced labour, I find it terrible.  I didn't

25    know anything about that.  How could I have known?  If this was true, then

Page 14711

 1    I'm ashamed as a former member of the HVO.  I'm ashamed as a human being,

 2    as a doctor.  It was no accident that I was chosen a member of the

 3    presidency of the infectologists of the world, because I think that morale

 4    and morality is my forte, my brightish side.  So if this is true, then I'm

 5    ashamed.

 6       Q.   Now, finally, Witness, could you look at the top page of this

 7    document, the first page.  There's something which is handwritten around

 8    the name of Mr. Mate Boban, and isn't it true that Boban made a personal

 9    note to Mr. Valentin Coric, which is his handwritten note, in which he

10    underlines the seriousness of the problem, to sort the matter out within

11    the limits of what is possible and the requirements of humanitarian law?

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

13            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have not intervened

14    too much.  We don't know whether this report was written by Mr. Bozic.

15    This is what my learned friend claims.  We don't know whether this is

16    handwriting of Mr. Boban.  This is my learned friend claiming.  And the

17    answer to all these questions is:  How on Earth could my witness know all

18    these things?  He was in no position to know all that.  And my learned

19    friend has already heard answers regarding this document.  The witness has

20    on several occasions answered his questions, and the answer was that he is

21    seeing the document for the first time and that he has no knowledge

22    whatsoever about any of these things, and my witness has repeated that on

23    several occasions.  Thank you very much.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Well, it doesn't matter that we hear the answer from

25    this witness once again.

Page 14712

 1            Mr. Bos, would you please repeat your question.

 2            MR. BOS:  Your Honours, I can wrap up, and I'll just put my last

 3    question to the witness.

 4       Q.   Witness, isn't it true that following the months that the Red

 5    Cross actually visited the Heliodrom in August 1992, the conditions in the

 6    Heliodrom hardly improved, and that by the time of October 1993 the

 7    conditions were still not up to the standards of international

 8    humanitarian law?  Witness, did you hear my question?

 9       A.   No.  No.  There was no link.  There was a break in the link, so I

10    couldn't hear you.

11       Q.   Let me --

12       A.   But I can answer your first question, if you wish me to do so, the

13    question regarding Mr. Mate Boban.  Sir, I have never --

14       Q.   Witness, I have one more question to ask you.  Just listen to this

15    question and respond to that question and then our cross-examination will

16    be over.  Is it not true that in the months following the visit of the Red

17    Cross at the Heliodrom in August 1993 that the conditions at the

18    Heliodrom, or any other camp, hardly improved and that the conditions of

19    confinement in these camps never, ever complied with the norms of the

20    international community?

21       A.   Your Honours, I have my documents.  I have it with me.  Your

22    registrar can see those documents, and in these documents she can see that

23    on the 11th of May we took all the measures in Heliodrom, when I was

24    invited there, and we did our best to adhere to the humanitarian law and

25    all the Geneva Conventions.  I did not even know whether the Red Cross

Page 14713

 1    came or didn't come, but I know that I worked all the time, that my first

 2    concern was for the people, how to prevent illnesses among them, how to

 3    remain their friend.  And I believe that with time, the quality of the

 4    work improved.  My colleagues, who started by being totally ignorant, not

 5    through their own fault, they finally learned a lot of things in order to

 6    prevent things from happening.  And if these -- so it is not the

 7    International Red Cross or any other institution that dictated my work.

 8    It was my own consciousness, my obligation as doctor, not the

 9    International Red Cross, and I would like to reject all your insinuations

10    in that respect.

11       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions.

12            JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Re-examination, Mr. Krsnik.

13            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Just one or two

14    things I need to clarify for your benefit.  My learned friend has given me

15    the opportunity to ask a question.  698.1 is the exhibit that I would

16    kindly ask the registrar to put in front of the witness, 698.1/4.

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Page 4.  Sorry.  The interpreter apologises

18                          Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

19            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   698.1, page 4.  Can you please tell us what you wanted to say

21    about this document.  That's page 4 in B/C/S version.

22                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23                          [Technical difficulty]

24            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Mr. Krsnik, it seems that the connection is

25    okay.  Would you please repeat your question.

Page 14714

 1            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, I would kindly ask Madam Registrar to

 3    put Exhibit 698.1 in front of you, and can you please look at page 4.

 4    This is the page that you wanted to read to us, i.e. that you wanted to

 5    comment upon it, that is, document 698.1.

 6       A.   I would like to refer to the last passage, which is very important

 7    from the point of view of prevention of contagious diseases, which in

 8    these circumstances would have been the most difficult segment of

 9    medicine.  I'm proud that even under such difficult conditions, we had

10    permanent screening of patients - when I say "patients," I mean people who

11    were there, patients - for scabies, pediculosis, diarrhoea, enzymatic

12    diseases, because at any -- at no point in time we registered any of these

13    diseases.  However, this didn't -- doesn't mean that they could -- that

14    these diseases couldn't break out at any given time.  The order issued by

15    Dr. Bagaric said that the concern for detainees was a permanent concern.

16    He ordered us to protect our image as doctors, as human beings, and if I

17    can say something else --

18       Q.   Yes, go on.  We are not finished yet.  I have some things that I

19    need to clarify which according to my mind require additional

20    clarification.  Can we now ask Madam Registrar to put document P565.4 in

21    front of you?  Do you have that document in front of you?

22       A.   Not yet.  Yes.  This is the document.

23       Q.   Can you please read the second passage slowly and tell me where is

24    it that this document says that there were 2100 detainees in Heliodrom?

25    This is what the Prosecution claims, and can you please find the place

Page 14715

 1    where it says so?  Does it say so anywhere?  Is that -- does that refer to

 2    the present number of detainees or of some future number of detainees?

 3       A.   No.  What it says here is that the commanders of the 3rd Brigade

 4    verbally informed us that they were not in a position to provide food for

 5    2.000 detainees.

 6       Q.   Does it say anywhere that at any present moment there were 2100

 7    detainees?

 8       A.   No, it doesn't say so.  It just says that the verbally we were

 9    informed by these people that they were not in a position to provide or

10    assure food for 2000 people.  I don't know, Mr. Krsnik, what you are

11    implying here.

12       Q.   That is because I did not want to object during cross-examination,

13    but what I'm implying is that in this document it doesn't say that there

14    were 2100 detainees at Heliodrom at any given point in time.

15            Let's move on, Witness.  There is one more thing that I would like

16    to discuss with you.  Where does it say, in which document - I believe

17    that when I'm asking this question, I'm referring to document P698.1 -

18    English version, page 4 - page 6.  Can you please read once again the

19    first passage on page 6 and tell me where does it say that the detainees

20    who worked outside received special food or that they received more food

21    than any other detainee in Heliodrom?  Where does it say so?  What does it

22    say exactly?  When talking about detainees, does it say where they worked,

23    for how long?  The document speaks for itself.  However, my learned friend

24    put some leading questions during his cross-examination, and I'm not

25    allowed to do that in my re-examination or my examination.

Page 14716

 1       A.   If you are referring to the first passage, it says here that it

 2    has been noticed that detainees who were assigned to physical labour were

 3    mostly of normal weight because of increased food.

 4       Q.   Does it say anywhere in the document who gave them more food and

 5    where were they assigned to physical labour?  Did they have to go outside

 6    or were they working within the Heliodrom perimeter?  My learned friend

 7    asked you this.  He said they were -- they received special food in

 8    Heliodrom, those detainees who allegedly were assigned to forced labour,

 9    according to him.

10       A.   Personally, I believe that the Prosecutor did not have all the

11    medical documents.  Maybe he could have consulted me.  I would have given

12    it to him, because I know that we, in one of Dr. Bagaric's orders, read

13    that we had to do the screening of the weight of those persons who, for

14    one reason or another, were losing weight, and that they -- their food had

15    to be improved.  So it very often happened that some detainees received

16    more and better food than even army members, but rest assured that

17    reinforced food was given only to such people who were losing weight.  But

18    also rest assured that there was no way I could know that somebody was

19    taken away for forced labour and that for that reason they received more

20    food or better food.

21       Q.   Can you now explain to the Honourable Court how is it possible

22    that your table, for which you said that it may have been stolen, when you

23    sent any of your reports, did you put the name of the addressee on top of

24    that report?

25       A.   If you look at my reports, I would also -- I would always indicate

Page 14717

 1    the addressee.

 2       Q.   Did you ever send this table to anybody?

 3       A.   No.  Personally, I can't remember but I think that only Bagaric

 4    had a copy of that table, because, you know, (redacted) are very

 5    sensitive --

 6                          [Technical difficulty]

 7            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Witness, I'm sorry we have some technical

 8    problems.  You answered that, "No.  Personally I can't remember but I

 9    think that only Bagaric had a copy of that table, because, you know, (redacted)

10    (redacted) are very sensitive."  Then you were cut off.  Would you please

11    continue your answer to this question?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said "sensitive," I meant

13    that I always exaggerated things in my reports and I wanted Dr. Bagaric to

14    know everything.

15            On the other hand, you can't achieve things without being really

16    perseverant [sic].  I'm sure you have many of my reports, and I always

17    pointed out that this involved a lot of stress.  I did this table with my

18    own hand, wanted to show it to Bagaric, and I showed it to him.  I even

19    gave it to him.  How this reached you, I don't know, because obviously it

20    wasn't addressed to anybody.  It wasn't addressed to anybody else.  I'm

21    glad you have it, because it shows what conditions we worked under.  We

22    had to exaggerate things.  I'm sorry, I'm finding this very difficult.  I

23    can't help shedding a tear.  I just wanted to point out that we worked as

24    human beings, and that's why sometimes we had to exaggerate things.

25       Q.   Witness, my last question to you:  Your documentation that you

Page 14718

 1    have, as you can see, you have been provided with only four or five

 2    documents signed by you.  We don't know how many of such documents does

 3    the Prosecution have.  They have only provided us with these four or

 4    five.  However, the documentation that you have, would you be willing to

 5    provide it to us on our request?

 6       A.   Mr. Krsnik, I may be invited to this Court again.  I would like to

 7    keep this documentation, although it testifies to a very difficult period

 8    of my time, but also the period of time that I am proud of.  I don't want

 9    to give these documents to anybody.

10       Q.   Maybe just photocopies for us to translate and for us to have an

11    integral picture.

12       A.   Mr. Krsnik, sometimes when I'm alone by myself during the night,

13    when my family is asleep, I go through these documents, and I don't want

14    to leave it to you.  I want to be able to live with my memories contained

15    in these documents.

16       Q.   Can you hear me?

17       A.   Yes, I can.

18       Q.   Fine.  Listen, it might be of assistance to us, so that I will ask

19    you, although you have not shown it to me, to show these documents to me.

20    I hope that you will find enough goodwill to give these documents to me

21    and then we shall have it translated, if need be.  But thank you very

22    much, Witness.  I have no more questions.

23            JUDGE LIU:  Questions from the Judges.  Judge Clark.

24                          Questioned by the Court:

25            JUDGE CLARK:  Mr. Witness, first of all I want to thank you very

Page 14719

 1    much for coming and making yourself available to the Tribunal, in spite of

 2    the fact that you have a very painful back condition, and I want you to

 3    know that when I ask you these questions, that I have taken very careful

 4    note of what you have said about how alien the concept of war is to a

 5    person who is trained to providing care for all ill people, without

 6    discriminating between their allegiances and their political

 7    affiliations.  I accept all that and I've taken very careful note of what

 8    you say about the superhuman efforts that you have gone to, and obviously

 9    you've been successful in achieving and preventing a severe epidemic in

10    the town of Mostar or in the Heliodrom.  Now, you can take it that I've

11    listened very carefully to that.  Nevertheless, I have a number of

12    questions for you, sir.

13            You said at the beginning of your evidence that when you were with

14    the HVO, that your expertise was in demand and that you therefore were on

15    call at the hospital, but you weren't there very frequently.  Can I ask

16    you where you were when you were not at the hospital?

17       A.   Your Honour Judge Clark, I wore the uniform, as a man who is a

18    member of the main medical staff, and I therefore had to make rounds of

19    the territory called Herceg-Bosna, all of it, in order to prevent any

20    epidemics from breaking out.  And please don't misunderstand me.  I'm one

21    of the few people who treat contagious diseases, but I also learned about

22    the prevention in the army.  In the former Yugoslavia, you do not know

23    people who are familiar both with the prophylactic measures and the

24    treatment.  I'm one of those few, because I passed my major's test, so I

25    had to go through the hospital to see what was the situation in the

Page 14720

 1    infectious ward, because there were only four doctors.  Otherwise I

 2    travelled all the time around, went to Livno, to other places, merely with

 3    a view to preventing any epidemics.

 4            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you.  And what I'm trying to understand from

 5    you is:  Was is your duty exclusively to prevent disease, or were you also

 6    responsible in some way for the well-being of the prisoners at the various

 7    camps?  In other words, the conditions under which they were held, were

 8    they something that you were involved with or were you uniquely involved

 9    in the prevention of infectious diseases?

10       A.   My only responsibility was the prevention of infectious diseases.

11    However, I have quite a lot of seniority behind me, and I'm a man who

12    treats people.  That is my vocation.  And yet in war we had young doctors

13    who were still not aware of that.  So it was natural for me to train them,

14    just as I now teach other students.  So my only job was the prevention.

15    But at the same time I was engaged in training.  That was not based on any

16    orders.  I did it on my own, because I knew that knowledge had no

17    frontiers and that knowledge shouldn't be only mine, that I should

18    transmit it and impart it to somebody else.  Because in that way I also

19    preserve myself.  I knew if they don't know how to do something, they will

20    be calling me, so that I will be involved again, and I therefore thought I

21    should train them, train other people.  I think that the person who can

22    receive, absorb the knowledge is happy, but even happier is the one who

23    can impart his knowledge.

24            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you, Doctor.  So can I take it from that that

25    your primary interest and responsibility was, no matter where you went in

Page 14721

 1    Herceg-Bosna, to prevent disease and to educate other doctors and

 2    paramedics in that area?

 3       A.   Your Honour Judge Clark, my primary responsibility and the reason

 4    for my appointment was to prevent infectious diseases.  All the rest I did

 5    additionally and on my own.  You know, I've seen a lot of the world.  I'm

 6    a member of numerous international organisations, so on and so forth, and

 7    I am also a member of the faculty.  And nobody told me, but Bagaric once

 8    said, "Well, when you can show them."  And even if he hadn't told me that,

 9    I would have shown them, because I think that the one who learns will help

10    the man, because their knowledge should serve hope.  And I am a big

11    adversary of ignorance, you know, a major foe of ignorance.

12            JUDGE CLARK:  That's good to know.  What I'm leading on to, then,

13    with further questions is:  As you had a specific and obviously very large

14    area of responsibility, who in fact was the medical officer who was

15    primarily in charge of the well-being and health of the prisoners?  Who

16    would have been the doctor who would have determined the policies at the

17    Heliodrom and Ljubuski?  They're the camps that we're interested in.

18       A.   Well, you see, when people find themselves in a situation like

19    that one, like the Heliodrom, the international conventions also say that

20    these men may not be under the control of units or individuals, but only

21    under the armed force.  All the rest is contrary to humaneness.  So the

22    control was carried out by physicians.  The service was headed by

23    Dr. Bagaric, and the specific executors, when it comes to Heliodrom, were

24    doctors Dr. Hadzic and Dr. Stranjak and doctors who were serving with the

25    home guard units, such as Dr. Pinjuh, Dr. Pehar, and a number of others,

Page 14722

 1    and they were to do that.  And I was to give them guidance, to give them

 2    instructions how to prevent diseases.  But since I was a military

 3    doctor -- and I've also passed the test for a major.  It's a very

 4    difficult test, much more difficult than the specialistic one.  So that

 5    the doctrinary views, to my mind -- for instance, every wound is infected

 6    unless proven to the contrary.  So I will always give tetanus.  My

 7    colleagues, for instance, didn't know it.  And again, any water, until we

 8    proved that it is chlorinated, is contaminated, and that is why I ordered

 9    that the chlorine content ought to be 0.4.  I know that it should be 0.2,

10    because just to be on the safe side.  And I would do the same thing

11    again.  But you have to know these things.  You cannot fight against

12    something unless you know it.  But this knowledge I acquired in the JNA.

13    That was not something that I was taught at the university.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you, Doctor.  I'm taking a long time to follow

15    through with my questions from your answers, but what I wanted to know

16    is:  As you had a very large and specialised interest, but a unique

17    interest, would it be fair to say that you wouldn't have been the

18    appropriate medical person to in fact inspect all the facilities and

19    conditions under which prisoners were held at the Heliodrom or Ljubuski?

20    I know that we're moving on with time, Doctor, so we have to have answers

21    that are a little more succinct.  I hope you don't think I'm being rude.

22       A.   I didn't hear.  I couldn't hear.

23            JUDGE CLARK:  Sorry, doctor, I was saying that I notice that it's

24    20 to 4.00 now and time is moving on and I have a few more questions to

25    ask you, so we have to be a little more succinct, and I didn't want you to

Page 14723

 1    take offence from that remark.  What I wanted to know is, as you had a

 2    very specialised area of interest and expertise, can I take it that you

 3    were not the actual expert who carried out a full assessment of Ljubuski

 4    and the Heliodrom in relation to the conditions under which prisoners were

 5    held?

 6       A.   You want me to answer this?  Your Honour Judge Clark, I personally

 7    went to see those people, those wards, because my colleagues would take me

 8    there.  It would be either Mr. Bozic or Dr. Tomic who would take me

 9    along.  I was familiar enough, but a large number of things, taking people

10    for forced labour and so on and so forth, I really knew nothing about it.

11    Yes, there was talk but I did not see it.  I do know, though, that that

12    part of the preventive medicine was done exactly as it is envisaged by the

13    postulates of the military wartime epidemiology.

14            JUDGE CLARK:  I do not doubt that, sir, but were you aware or did

15    you personally see that any prisoners were held in solitary confinement?

16       A.   Your Honour Judge Clark, rest assured that I do not know.  Maybe

17    there were some.  I'm not denying it.  But they did not take me there.  My

18    colleagues, and at times Mr. Bozic, took me along, but I do not know

19    that.  I am not saying that there weren't because maybe they existed but I

20    do not know.

21            JUDGE CLARK:  I accept that totally.  We have just heard over the

22    months some fairly harrowing evidence, from two people in particular who

23    were held allegedly for a very long time in what were described as fairly

24    appalling conditions, but you don't know anything about that, you can't

25    help us in any way.  Can I -- sorry.

Page 14724

 1       A.   I'm sorry, Your Honour Judge Clark -- yes, yes, of course, do go

 2    on.

 3            JUDGE CLARK:  I didn't really want an answer, sir, because I felt

 4    that your response was valid, that these things could have happened or

 5    they may not have happened but you know nothing about it, and I would not

 6    disagree with what you're saying.  I was wondering if you ever noted

 7    personally injuries as opposed to illness on detainees which would have

 8    been, from a medical point of view, inconsistent with good humanitarian

 9    management.

10       A.   Your Honour Judge Clark, according to my documentation from May

11    1993 -- of May 1993, it says here -- it mentioned here places that I

12    visited, and it also says here that the detainees, the wards, said they

13    had no problems relative to harassment and that they were full of praise

14    for the guards, although I have it recorded somewhere.  I cannot really

15    say that there were not such cases, but I'm telling you I went there with

16    my colleagues and I never saw any such case, and I give you my word of

17    honour.  Had I seen it, I would have informed Bagaric, because I think

18    that it would be -- I think that it is inadmissible.

19            THE INTERPRETER:  We are afraid we missed part of the answer.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

21            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We could not get the whole answer.

22    We did not hear the answer.  He said something, "informed Dr. Bagaric,"

23    and then about 30 seconds were lost.  We could not hear it.

24       A.   I would have certainly informed Dr. Bagaric, and personally I

25    would have taken my utmost that such a person, be it even my brother, be

Page 14725

 1    punished because nobody has the right to take another man's life.  I'm

 2    sorry that all this has been selected.  You should have seen it.  When I

 3    wrote such reports, I was afraid that I would also become a victim, fall

 4    victim to one of the extremists, but here certain things are presented out

 5    of context.  Well, you know, when Richelieu said, "Well, give me anybody's

 6    letter and let me take something out of context and I will cut his head

 7    off," so please.

 8            JUDGE CLARK:  I hope, sir, that you're not equating us with that

 9    sentiment expressed by Richelieu.  I wanted to ask you in conclusion about

10    the report of the --

11       A.   May I say something, Your Honour?  Judge Clark, may I say

12    something?

13            JUDGE CLARK:  Of course.

14       A.   I take pride in being here today, and I'm aware that you were

15    brought there by your ethical and professional reference.  It wasn't a

16    state that brought you.  And I hope that my answers and my dialogue with

17    you will help you in your work, and that is why I wish to express my

18    thanks to you.

19            JUDGE CLARK:  I have one last question, which might be a difficult

20    one for you.  I'm referring to your report which is called Exhibit 698.1,

21    and perhaps if the Registrar would kindly assist you or assist me by

22    putting that report in front of you, and I want to refer specifically to

23    the very last paragraph of your conclusion.  Have you found it, sir?

24       A.   I have, yes.

25            JUDGE CLARK:  In this report, there is a reference to quite a

Page 14726

 1    number of medical conditions among the prisoners, and then there is a

 2    reference to 55 wards recovering from wounds.  Now, Mr. Bos the Prosecutor

 3    asked you about this, and you appeared to minimise the veracity or

 4    authenticity or reliability of that assessment on the basis that it was

 5    made by doctors who were apparently in isolation, and in fact, you

 6    appeared to repeat the final paragraph of your assessment.  Can you

 7    explain to me why the fact that the assessments were prepared by medical

 8    practitioners who were prisoners would affect its validity?  Why would the

 9    fact that they were prisoners make their assessment unreliable?

10       A.   Judge Clark, unfortunately you are wrong.  Not once does it say so

11    anywhere.  In here it says they -- that they did not have adequate medical

12    documentation.  For instance, among the diseases, it is mentioned that --

13    one can see that there are two with some problem or that there are seven

14    with eye anomalies, what kind of -- seven wards with -- so there was no

15    dilemma.  My colleagues did not have adequate documentation, and had I

16    been there, they would have said the same thing, that without

17    documentation, everything is probable or supposed, and just look, Judge

18    Clark, at the conclusion that you are talking about, and I will read it

19    out.  May I, with your permission?

20            JUDGE CLARK:  Of course.

21       A.   "In spite of all the listed shortcomings, the medical

22    epidemiological situation is very satisfactory, as infectious and

23    contagious skin diseases are present only in sporadic form without any

24    epidemic relationship.  The sporadic appearance of these diseases is quite

25    normal in these locations, in such locations."  And then the penultimate

Page 14727

 1    passage, "The inspection established that there was no ill treatment of

 2    wards."

 3            I hope I've answered your question, at least in part, if not

 4    fully.

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  The question that I really wanted you to address was

 6    the one that was posed by Mr. Bos in relation to the 55 wards who were

 7    described as recovering from wounds.  As a non-doctor and as a lay person,

 8    it would still seem to me that one doesn't have to have documentation in

 9    order to make an assessment that somebody is recovering from a wound.  And

10    why, then, is my question, why, then, did you minimise the accuracy or

11    appear to minimise the accuracy of that finding because the doctors who

12    made the finding were in fact not at liberty?

13       A.   Allow me to repeat it once again.  Far be it from me to minimise

14    it and -- because they are my colleagues, but the condition after the

15    wounding, one can be -- if you are hit by a bullet or something, then

16    you're finished, but it can be a muscle injury which doesn't take more

17    than five or six days, but for these five or six days you must be spared

18    work or whatever.  And without medical documentation, allow me, if you now

19    went to a doctor here in the -- there in The Hague, without any

20    documentation, do you think you'd be believed?  I wouldn't believe you,

21    and I do not think that my colleagues in The Hague would believe you.

22            JUDGE CLARK:  I see.  My final question -- well, maybe I have two

23    questions.  Can you tell me how those -- your colleagues who were held

24    against their will in the Heliodrom, how they were actually housed?  Were

25    the doctors and the nurses who were described in one of the reports in a

Page 14728

 1    separate unit from the prisoners or did they find themselves in the same

 2    rooms with mattresses on the floor?

 3       A.   It is only natural for the doctor to be in the infirmary, which is

 4    open around the clock.

 5            JUDGE CLARK:  What I'm asking you is did those doctors and nurses

 6    who assisted in the care of the prisoners, did they have any special

 7    treatment or were they treated in the same way as the other detainees?

 8                          [Technical difficulty]

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Repeat your question, please.

10            JUDGE CLARK:  Sorry.  I just wanted to know - perhaps you don't

11    know this - whether the doctors and nurses who were detainees and who

12    assisted in the care of their co-prisoners, did they share the same

13    accommodation as the other prisoners, or did they have special

14    privileges?

15       A.   Two doctors.  One worked in the infirmary which worked around the

16    clock, and of course he was accommodated there.  The second doctor was in

17    the in-patient unit, and naturally he was accommodated there.  It would be

18    very wrong for you to look for a doctor anywhere.  For instance, the

19    doctors from the units who were there, they were also accommodated in the

20    in-patient hospital for those soldiers, not with the others.  Because

21    after all, doctors are protected persons.  They are protected so they can

22    place their knowledge in the service of others and to help them.  That was

23    my order, because if a doctor is there, then he can help, and he is

24    duty-bound to be at a place -- at the location where a medical institution

25    is.

Page 14729

 1            JUDGE CLARK:  Thank you.  Can I once again express my appreciation

 2    for your assistance?  Especially considering your back condition. I hope I

 3    haven't added to it.

 4            JUDGE LIU:  Any questions out of Judge's questions?  Mr. Bos?

 5            MR. BOS:  No, Your Honour.

 6            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Mr. Krsnik?

 7            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes.  It seems to me that there is

 8    one thing which warrants clarification because I'm afraid there is a

 9    misunderstanding and I will try to ask -- to rephrase Judge Clark's

10    question.

11                          Further examination by Mr. Krsnik:

12       Q.   In relation to these a 55 wards and the documentation, is it that

13    they had -- that they said that they had been wounded but did not say when

14    and produced documentation about their wounding, or were they wounded

15    after having been put at the Heliodrom?  I don't know how else to say it.

16    And they brought the documentation and told these doctors, "Well, we were

17    wounded over there and here is documentation," or were they wounded at the

18    time when you wrote the report?  Because that is the fundamental

19    question.

20            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr Bos?

21            MR. BOS:  I object.  This is a leading question, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Well, it is a leading question, Mr. Krsnik.

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But Your Honours, I don't really have

24    a problem because that is why we can't clarify certain things.  I'm quite

25    clear what this report is about.  The Prosecutor asked questions about

Page 14730

 1    this and Her Honour asked this and I was trying to rephrase it, but I

 2    think that the meaning is absolutely clear.

 3            JUDGE LIU:  You do not have to rephrase Judge Clark's questions,

 4    you know.

 5            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  My question -- my

 6    question -- let me try to reword my question.  It is quite logical.  This

 7    is the Tribunal which cares about the truth rather than if I went wrong

 8    and I will ask my question properly.  So my question, the sense of my

 9    question, the meaning of my question is whether these people were wounded

10    whilst at the Heliodrom.  That's the question because it is very important

11    to learn where they were wounded and when and whether the doctor knows

12    that or whether they were wounded two years before that and then produced

13    the documentation.  That is why the documents were not trusted.

14       Q.   So, Doctor, were they wounded whilst at the Heliodrom?  Witness,

15    excuse me.

16       A.   Mr. Krsnik, you see, in this last paragraph, it says they did not

17    have with them adequate and proper medical documentation.  Had they been

18    wounded whilst at the Heliodrom, they would have unquestionably ended up

19    in the War Hospital, because the Heliodrom did not have the facilities for

20    the extension of that kind of medical help and we would be deluding

21    ourselves.

22            Now I will use a military medical term.  There are different

23    degrees of emergency.  Wounding is of the first order of emergency, and

24    this, the treatment is usually provided by a surgeon.  There was no

25    surgeon at the Heliodrom.  So had he been wounded at the Heliodrom, he

Page 14731

 1    wouldn't be there.  He would be somewhere in the surgical ward of the

 2    hospital or where he would have been operated on.  Or if it was a serious

 3    wounding, then he would have been taken to Split.  With all due respect to

 4    my colleagues, they simply -- at the Heliodrom they were not qualified

 5    enough to do that kind of intervention, but I wish to thank them, to

 6    extend my heartfelt thanks to them for what they did.

 7            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.  I have no

 8    further questions.

 9            JUDGE LIU:  Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to give

10    your testimony.  We all wish you good luck in the future.  The court

11    deputy will show you out of that room.

12                          [The witness withdrew]

13            JUDGE LIU:  At this stage are there any documents to tender,

14    Mr. Bos?

15            MR. BOS:  Yes, Your Honours.  The Prosecution have six new

16    exhibits to tender: Exhibit P686.2, which is the table; Exhibit P698.1,

17    which is the report by this witness on the Heliodrom; Exhibit P699.1,

18    which is his report on Gabela; Exhibit P700.2, which is the witness's

19    report on Livno; Exhibit P702.2, which is the witness's report on

20    Ljubuski; and finally, Exhibit P565.04, which is the letter of Mr. Bozic

21    addressed to Mr. Stojic, dated 14 August 1993.

22            JUDGE LIU:  Any objections, Mr. Krsnik?

23            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course what the

24    witness has said, that these reports were his, he owned up to them, so I

25    have no grounds for objections.  As for the others, this one is admitted.

Page 14732

 1    Well, 630.2 [as interpreted], unfortunately, has already been admitted, so

 2    that I can't object to that one either.  What I want to clear up now, Your

 3    Honour, is the source of documents.  Although the witness said that the

 4    signature was his, and so on and so forth, these are not the originals.

 5    They must be copies.  And I still claim before this high -- the first

 6    world tribunal that the source of these documents is not the Croatian

 7    government, because the Croatian government cannot be the source of these

 8    documents, because surely the Croatian government did not collect the

 9    documents of the medical corps of a third country and it could not be in

10    the possession of them and it cannot have them now.  So we want to know

11    which is the true source, for two reasons: so that we can look at them and

12    check the authenticity of these documents, and so the Defence could apply

13    for these same documents from that same source.

14            The complete documentation.  Now, it is interesting.  All of a

15    sudden documents are now emerging with the indication of a source of the

16    Croatian government.  Well, excuse me.  That is my government, so I will

17    immediately write to the Croatian government and to ask them to make their

18    archives accessible to me, because they've obviously opened their archives

19    to the Prosecution but not to me.  I am not aware at all of these

20    documents of the Croatian government, and we hear that this is the

21    archives of the Croatian government.  I do not think they have them, but

22    when it says here "the Croatian government," it really sounds pretty

23    curious and we'd like to know.

24            JUDGE LIU:  Since Mr. Krsnik raised that question, Mr. Bos, are

25    you in a position to answer it at this moment or give us some explanations

Page 14733

 1    about that?

 2            MR. BOS:  No, Your Honours.  I can't be more specific than what's

 3    indicated here, that we got these documents from the Croatian government,

 4    and we got numerous documents from the Croatian government, and these were

 5    included in here.  And I think the witness has sufficiently authenticated

 6    the documents, and I really don't see why we need to discuss where these

 7    documents are coming from.

 8            MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, oh, yes, it is very

 9    important to discuss it, although the documents authenticated four

10    documents.  I don't know about others.  I don't know how many.  I want to

11    know who, the first name and the last name, which ministry, which agency,

12    who gave those documents to you.  It couldn't have been the Croatian

13    government, because the Defence also has the right to turn to the same

14    source.  Your Honours, we must enjoy the same rights as the Prosecutor,

15    and now they are hiding their sources so that we cannot gain access to

16    them.  So who is it who said that he was the Croatian government?  I'm

17    telling you that it was not the Croatian governments.

18            JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

19            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I can perhaps try to offer a

20    solution, or at least some additional information, because it may in fact

21    just be an issue of the nomenclature that's been used on this particular

22    document.  Throughout the trial we have distinguished between records or

23    documents obtained from the Zagreb archive, what we've called the Zagreb

24    archive, which this Trial Chamber heard considerable testimony about from

25    Mr. Prelec during the Prosecution case in chief.  This is a place where

Page 14734

 1    Prosecution staff have gone, and I must take issue with the comment made

 2    by counsel.  It is an archive that's open to not only the Prosecution but

 3    to the Defence.  Any number of Defence investigators and staff, from any

 4    number of cases in this Tribunal, can be seen and found working in this

 5    archive, and I have reason to believe that investigators working for

 6    counsel are also taking advantage of that archive.  But that's the Zagreb

 7    archive, and I think we tried to be consistent throughout in identifying

 8    documents coming from that archive.

 9            Now, apart from the archive, there have been documents which we

10    have obtained from the Croatian government which are in evidence, and I

11    have in mind a series of documents that relates to events involving Robert

12    Nosic, for example.  That's the HVO gentleman who was abducted from the

13    HVO military police station in Mostar in November of 1993.  That's a

14    series of documents that was obtained from the Croatian government

15    pursuant to a request for assistance that this office issued to the

16    Croatian government actually before the archive even became available to

17    us.  Going back to the very first day of this trial, the Trial Chamber may

18    recall the testimony of OTP investigator Jan Van Hecke, who testified

19    about these various categories of documents.

20            So as I stand before the Tribunal, or the Trial Chamber, at this

21    moment I can't tell you or counsel whether this particular series of

22    documents denominated "Croatian government" are in fact from the archive

23    or whether they were obtained pursuant to a request for assistance.  I can

24    offer to find that information and provide it to the Trial Chamber if you

25    ask us to do so, but I think I would certainly what Mr. Bos has said,

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 1    which is that with respect to these four exhibits, the witness very

 2    clearly authenticated them.  He verified that they are in fact documents

 3    that he made.  So it's not clear to us why, really, it's necessary to do

 4    anything more concerning their authenticity or admissibility.

 5            JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much, Mr. Stringer.  And you have said

 6    that you'll do something else to help us to find the source of those

 7    documents at a later stage.  We are very glad to hear that.  We believe

 8    that it will be a great help to the Defence counsel for their

 9    documentation.

10            As for the six sets of the documents used during the

11    cross-examination, we believe that the witness himself authenticated those

12    documents already, which is sufficient.  So these six documents are

13    admitted into the evidence at this stage.

14            So we'll break now at this moment, and tomorrow morning, at 9.30,

15    we'll continue with the next videolink witness.

16                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.10 p.m.,

17                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of August,

18                          2002, at 9.30 a.m.