Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15103

1 Thursday, 5 September 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Mladen Naletilic and Vinko Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Before we have the witness,

9 there is a schedule announcement. We have some changes in the scheduling

10 of this case. On the 17th of September, Tuesday, we will sit in the

11 morning instead of in the afternoon. On the 23rd of September, Monday, we

12 will sit in the afternoon instead of in the morning.

13 Having said that, Madam Usher, could we have the witness, please?

14 [The witness entered court]


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

18 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, yes.

20 JUDGE LIU: Please sit down.

21 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

22 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Good morning.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Witness, do you know the name of Drazen Galic as someone who had

Page 15104

1 been a member of the ATG Vinko Skrobo?

2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I didn't hear a response in

3 English. I don't know.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.


6 Q. Was he a member of the Vinko Skrobo during the same time that you

7 were a member of the unit, more or less?

8 A. For a while, for a short while.

9 Q. Witness, I want to direct your attention now to October of 1993.

10 Actually before I do that, I want to just clarify one issue. From my

11 notes yesterday, it indicated that you were a member of Mr. Martinovic's

12 unit for approximately five months. Is that correct?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. So did you leave the unit then -- well, if you'll just allow me to

15 count, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me you joined the unit in

16 perhaps the middle of May, shortly after the events of 9 May; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Ten or 15 days after the 9th of May, that is when I joined the

19 unit.

20 Q. All right. So then counting ahead forward five months from that

21 point, that would take us to June, July, August, September, October of

22 1993. Can we then conclude that you left the unit sometime in October of

23 1993?

24 A. More or less. Could be.

25 Q. Now, at the time you left Mr. Martinovic's unit, did you remain in

Page 15105

1 Mostar or did you return to Croatia?

2 A. I remained in Mostar. I signed a professional contract with the

3 2nd Guards Brigade of the HVO.

4 Q. So then you moved into a different unit of the HVO; is that

5 correct?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. For what reason did you leave the Vinko Skrobo unit, given your

8 fondness of Mr. Martinovic?

9 A. Because this unit was a professional unit, that is when I was with

10 Martinovic's unit, it wasn't a professional unit, because I had a rifle

11 that I'd bought myself. I didn't get it from that unit. So I moved over

12 to a unit which was -- which was structured as a proper army.

13 Q. In the 2nd Guards Brigade was your commander Stanko Sopta?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Where were you deployed, then, as a member of the 2nd Guards

16 Brigade?

17 A. Reconnaissance and sabotage company.

18 Q. And where was that located? What was your area of

19 responsibility?

20 A. Action beyond the enemy lines, reconnaissance, things like that.

21 Q. Were you based in Mostar?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you leave the ATG Vinko Skrobo because you grew uncomfortable

24 with certain conduct of its members?

25 A. No.

Page 15106

1 Q. What was it about the unit which led you to believe it was not a

2 professional unit, such as the 2nd Guards Brigade? How did the units

3 differ?

4 A. In the Skrobo ATG, we did not have enough of the military gear.

5 We did not have uniforms. I repeat, I had with me the rifle that I'd

6 bought myself.

7 Q. I believe, sir, yesterday, you it testified that you had

8 sufficient ammunition to carry out your duties on the front line; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, but the ammunition is not the only thing that a soldier

11 needs.

12 Q. So the 2nd Guards Brigade was a better-equipped unit than your

13 unit which was manning the front line in Mostar? Is that your testimony?

14 A. In the very early days of the war, we had no army whatsoever. So

15 we started the war completely unprepared, and in time, the armament got

16 better so this 2nd HVO Brigade basically that was the first proper army

17 unit that I was with. Those before it were volunteer units which were

18 neither properly trained, nor properly armed, nor anything. So that

19 Mr. Martinovic's unit was made of the guys which were -- came from the

20 street. That is friends, pals. We knew each other from before.

21 Q. Based on your observations as a member of the unit, did that lead

22 to difficulties in terms of command, control and discipline within the

23 unit?

24 A. Perhaps, perhaps you could put it that way.

25 Q. Certain members of the unit failed to act as correct and proper

Page 15107

1 soldiers in carrying out their duties?

2 A. Well, perhaps there were things of that kind, but I couldn't

3 really say.

4 Q. Having remained then in Mostar, I want to direct your attention to

5 November of 1993. Were you aware of, or did you hear of, an incident in

6 which a member of the Convicts Battalion was abducted from the military

7 police station in Mostar? I'm sorry, let me state that again because I

8 said it wrong.

9 Were you aware of an incident in November of 1993 in which members

10 of the Convicts Battalion came and abducted an HVO soldier, took him out

11 of a military police station in Mostar?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I object to this question. I think it

14 goes beyond the scope of the direct examination and these questions relate

15 to the Convicts Battalion, whereas the witness said that he belonged to

16 quite a different unit, that is the Vinko Skrobo ATG.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I've never heard about it, I

18 don't know anything about it.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, I think the Prosecution is entitled to

20 ask this question because this witness was in Mostar area at that period

21 of time, and I believe the Prosecutor will give some evidence about the

22 relation between the Convicts Battalion and the Vinko Skrobo ATG, but

23 anyway, the witness has answered this question.


25 Q. Witness, I want to direct your attention now to the events of 17

Page 15108

1 September, 1993. And maybe just to keep it flowing, I'll ask the

2 Registrar to give you at this point a photograph, the one you saw

3 yesterday, which is Exhibit P14.15. And I think it would probably be best

4 if we could work with a clean copy in addition to the one that the witness

5 marked on yesterday. If we could put first the one on the ELMO that the

6 witness marked on yesterday? Okay.

7 Witness, you said yesterday that you worked on shifts. What was

8 your shift on the 17th of September? When did you arrive from your home

9 or your parents' home in order to assume your duties on the front line?

10 What time of day was it?

11 A. Now I had to make guesses about what happened on the 17th of

12 September. You have to remind me. I don't remember -- I don't retain in

13 my memory the dates so well. I can't really know what happened then.

14 Q. Yesterday, you testified about an incident in which a tank moved

15 down from --

16 A. Oh, yeah, fine, fine. I see, yes. Yes. I'm aware of that day

17 with the tank but I'm not -- I wasn't aware of the date.

18 Q. You don't know if that testimony from yesterday relates --

19 A. Yes, yes. I know.

20 Q. Okay. Let me just. I want to clarify this. Let me finish.

21 A. No, no, no, no, no. We don't -- there is a misunderstanding. I'm

22 well aware of the incidents with the tank because I was at the front line

23 that day but I don't know whether it was exactly on the 17th, but I

24 believe you, if you tell me that it was the 17th.

25 Q. Witness, do you speak English?

Page 15109

1 A. A little.

2 Q. It seems to me that you're able to understand my questions

3 directly without waiting for the interpretation, and as a result, you

4 sometimes begin your answer before I finished asking my question. So if I

5 could just ask you, remind you, as Mr. Par did yesterday, if you could try

6 to break, give the interpreters a pause in between the question and

7 answer so that they can do their job.

8 Okay. Well, I want to talk about the day that you've described in

9 which the tank was involved. And again, just to be certain, you don't

10 know whether this is the 17th of September or not? It's a date -- you

11 recall the incident but not the date; is that correct?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. On this day, what time did you arrive at the front line to begin

14 your duties as a member of the unit?

15 A. Early in the morning.

16 Q. Now, some sort of operation was conducted on that day. Who

17 briefed you about the operation and what your function was going to be?

18 A. My immediate superior.

19 Q. And what was his name again?

20 A. Bobo Peric.

21 Q. He was one of the four group commanders within the unit?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. What's the location where the briefing took place? Where were

24 you?

25 A. At the headquarters in the command of our unit.

Page 15110

1 Q. Is that the place that's located on the Kalemova Street?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Is this the place where you would see prisoners working, I think

4 you testified yesterday about doing work on automobiles. Is this where

5 those prisoners were?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is this where Mr. Martinovic could usually be found?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At the time that you were being briefed at the headquarters, did

10 you become aware of any prisoners who had arrived from the Heliodrom?

11 A. They all came from the Heliodrom, as far as I know.

12 Q. What was the objective of this operation? Let me -- I reviewed

13 your testimony from yesterday. It was my understanding that the objective

14 of this operation was to, in fact, move across the Bulevar and to take

15 positions on the far side or the eastern side of the Bulevar. Is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To your knowledge, were any other units involved in this operation

19 on the 17th of September?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And these were units that were conducting their own activities

22 within their own areas of responsibility, perhaps along the length of the

23 Bulevar?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Within your unit, was it simply your shift that was going to take

Page 15111

1 part in this operation, or did additional members of your unit come in to

2 take part in the operation on that day?

3 A. The whole unit, all the shifts, as far as I know, as far as I can

4 remember.

5 Q. And did that include the members of the unit who were foreigners?

6 A. Well, there probably were, but I'm not sure, but probably yes.

7 Q. Were you aware that there were a rather small number but a number

8 of mercenaries who were also members of the Vinko Skrobo unit?

9 A. There were a few foreigners, but now, whether they were

10 mercenaries, I'm not sure I would call them that. Perhaps a better name

11 for them would be adventurers.

12 Q. Do you know Dinko Knezovic?

13 A. Only superficially but I've heard about him.

14 Q. Was he a member of the Vinko Skrobo during this period of time?

15 A. Probably, but I'm not sure.

16 Q. Do you recall if he did driving for the unit, specifically

17 bringing in prisoners from the Heliodrom?

18 A. Throughout the war, I was on the front line, so I wouldn't know

19 such individuals.

20 Q. That morning, when you were at the headquarters, you said that you

21 assumed prisoners were brought in from the Heliodrom. So based on your

22 having been at the headquarters, would you know whether it was Dinko

23 Knezovic who was bringing in, transporting the prisoners from the

24 Heliodrom?

25 A. Possibly, but I couldn't state that for sure. I really don't

Page 15112

1 know. I think the best thing is to say that I don't know because that was

2 the actual answer.

3 Q. Did you see Mr. Martinovic in the headquarters on the morning when

4 you were getting briefed about this operation?

5 A. I probably saw him. I can't quite remember but there is no reason

6 that I wouldn't have.

7 Q. What about Mr. Takac?

8 A. I remember him. He was on the front line, yes.

9 Q. Was he at the headquarters earlier, at the time that you were

10 receiving your briefing?

11 A. I can only assume that he was. Most probably he was. But I can't

12 remember. Most probably, yes.

13 Q. Are you able to recall what time of day the attack or the

14 operation was scheduled, was supposed to begin?

15 A. Certainly it was going to be in the morning, but I do not -- I

16 cannot remember the hour.

17 Q. If I suggested to you that this was all going to take place at

18 12.00 noon, would that be correct or possible or not possible?

19 A. It is maybe possible, but according to what I can recollect, it

20 should have been in the morning but it is possible it would have been at

21 noon.

22 Q. Now, at the briefing, at the headquarters, did you learn at that

23 time that a tank was going to arrive in order to support your movement

24 across the confrontation line?

25 A. The tank arrived when I was already on the front line so I was on

Page 15113

1 the front line at the time when the tank arrived.

2 Q. I understand. I'll try to make my question more clear. Previous

3 to that, when you were still in the headquarters getting your briefing,

4 were you informed in the briefing that a tank was going to be involved in

5 this operation in order to provide support for your advance across the

6 confrontation line?

7 A. They probably told us this but I can't quite remember. They most

8 probably said it.

9 Q. You weren't shocked later on when a tank arrived at that location,

10 at the time that the operation was going to begin, I take it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, on the ELMO we've got the photograph that you were marking on

13 yesterday, and just a couple of questions about that now. It's my

14 understanding -- well, just to continue on, the briefing was concluded and

15 I take it, then, that you and other members of your unit moved from the

16 headquarters then down to the confrontation line, the area of the health

17 centre; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I believe yesterday you testified that you, your position was

20 on the ground floor of the building you marked as building number 1 on the

21 photograph.

22 A. Yes, for the most part, but I was also -- I moved about in other

23 places as well.

24 Q. For now let's talk about the period of time prior to the arrival

25 of the tank. During that period of time, were you inside the building,

Page 15114

1 outside the building, or both?

2 A. According to what I can recollect I was probably inside the

3 building, but I wasn't in one place all the time. I was walking about.

4 Q. Walking about inside the building?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it's my understanding that certainly these windows that we see

7 facing the confrontation line, those were blocked with sandbags; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you're inside the building, is it possible to see outside the

11 building, either toward the confrontation line or north toward what used

12 to be called Liska Street?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. How were you able to see outside, then, from inside

15 the building?

16 A. Well, at the building on the side opposite to where the front line

17 was, normally wasn't protected, and it was possible to see extremely well

18 how a tank was arriving. But it is only towards the front line that the

19 sandbags were positioned with small openings for rifles.

20 Q. I just want to be clear. Were you able to see outside of the

21 building from the side that faces the sandbags that were across Liska

22 Street?

23 A. Yes, yes. I was able to.

24 Q. Now, in this photograph, you made a line indicating the position

25 of the sandbags. Do you see that?

Page 15115

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And it is a line which appears to extend out to the left from the

3 side of the health centre, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then behind the sand bags you've made some --

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par? I'm sorry.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I thought the witness could maybe show

8 us this so that we can be absolutely certain about which line we are

9 talking about so that we can be specific.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's a good idea.

11 MR. STRINGER: It is a good idea.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, here were the bags, sandbags

13 were positioned in this location that I'm just indicating.


15 Q. And then behind the sand bags you've made markings indicating what

16 to me sounds like a big screen where carpeting was hanging from a cable

17 across buildings that would have obstructed the view of anything behind;

18 is that correct? Like a big, huge curtain across the street.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was the height of the sandbag fortifications? How tall was

21 that?

22 A. Perhaps two metres, perhaps a metre and a half.

23 Q. Tall enough so that a person could walk behind the sandbags

24 without having to crouch down?

25 A. Well, I think that the person may have had to bend down.

Page 15116

1 Q. What time did the tank arrive, if you are able to recall?

2 A. Possibly in the morning, but perhaps it is around noon, like you

3 said. Maybe.

4 Q. Was it a T-55 tank?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many crew?

7 A. I assume there were three of them. It's just an assumption. I

8 have never been in a tank.

9 Q. From your position, were you able to see any of the crew members

10 or were they inside the tank? As opposed to perhaps sitting up on top of

11 the turret?

12 A. Well, the tank crew is normally inside the tank during a combat

13 operation. It would be completely stupid if they were sitting on top of

14 the tank. When they finished their combat operation, which was very

15 short, they returned and they stopped behind the building which I marked

16 as under number 1, and they said that the tank was broken, not functioning

17 any more, that it had been hit by sniper, that the optical sight was hit

18 by a sniper. Perhaps this was the truth but perhaps they had a reason.

19 Perhaps they didn't feel like fighting. I really don't know but maybe it

20 fired two or three shells. That was all.

21 Q. What was your position when the tank arrived behind the sandbags?

22 A. As I said, I was on the ground floor of the building, of the

23 building under number 1.

24 Q. Were you preparing then to move outside and to move forward across

25 the confrontation line, as had been planned?

Page 15117

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You testified yesterday that at some point, in fact a number of

3 your comrades did move outside, I think toward the fountain. I had the

4 impression that you remained inside the building; is that correct?

5 A. The one who is translating, yes, yes.

6 Q. So others then went outside in the direction of the fountain,

7 which is obviously toward the Bulevar, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. From your position inside the building, it seems to me that your

10 view of what's happening forward of the sandbags, would have been largely

11 obstructed. Is that correct?

12 A. Well, yes, but I was not all the time in one place. I was

13 walking. If you go back ten metres, you could see everything very well.

14 There is a bunker right next, left -- on the left-hand side of the

15 building and that's exactly where I was, for instance, in that location.

16 There was a bunker left from the building number 1. It is easy to come

17 from the centre of the building there. It's only ten metres.

18 Q. Could you take the pointer and show us the position of this

19 bunker, please?

20 A. [indicates] Precisely where I am holding the tip of the pointer.

21 Q. So this is a position just forward of the sandbags?

22 A. In the direction next to the sandbags.

23 Q. Now, the enemy positions on the other side, it's my understanding,

24 sir, that the Armija soldiers who were your targets were positioned in the

25 basement of the buildings immediately opposite the Bulevar. Is that

Page 15118

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you take a pointer and indicate for us the buildings or the

4 positions of the ABiH soldiers at that time?

5 A. Here. I am pointing at it with the pointer. Here the destroyed

6 buildings, the destroyed buildings that I'm indicating with the pointer,

7 this whole line here.

8 Q. Could you -- could I ask you to take the other clean photograph

9 and put a circle around those buildings, please?

10 A. [marks]

11 Q. And so the plan was for you and your colleagues to move across and

12 to hopefully capture the positions that are within the circle that you

13 just made; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the tank was to provide support for you in advancing across

16 and taking those positions, I take it?

17 A. Something like that. It's not quite accurate but let's say that

18 that is it.

19 Q. I know that in military operations the plan usually doesn't unfold

20 as you would always hope or expect but that was generally the idea? Is

21 that a fair statement?

22 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I don't understand

23 it. I'm just an ordinary soldier and I find this too complicated. I

24 really don't know what you mean.

25 Q. Yesterday, and I wrote this down from reading your testimony, you

Page 15119

1 testified that the objective was to cross over with the support of the

2 tank. And can we agree that that was the objective?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I take it, then, that the tank's targets would have been ABiH

5 soldiers positioned in the basement of these buildings that you've

6 described or that you've circled?

7 A. Yes, quite.

8 Q. It seems to me from the way you've described the conduct of the

9 tank driver that they were in fact supposed to move past the sandbags

10 closer down to the confrontation line but that they failed to do that. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. You'll have to repeat the question one more time, please.

13 Q. Was it envisioned that the tank would move beyond the sandbags

14 closer to the Bulevar, in supporting the infantry movement across the

15 confrontation line?

16 A. I can tell you what my assumption was. The tank was supposed to

17 get to the sandbags and to fire towards the cellars which is where I

18 presume the enemy soldiers were. That was the only thing that the tank

19 was supposed to do.

20 Q. And it's your view, then, sir, that the tank and the turret of the

21 tank, having come up directly behind the sandbags would have been able to

22 lower its turret over sandbags of 1 and three-quarters to two metres in

23 order to fire on the basement of the buildings opposite on the Bulevar?

24 A. That's my assumption. That's what I expected it to do.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President?

Page 15120

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to this type of

3 question that's asking the witness to speculate. There have been already

4 a few questions like this in relation to what the tank was supposed to do,

5 what the witness thought the tank was supposed to do. The witness is --

6 was simply -- is simply now drawn into an area of questioning where he can

7 not give good quality answers. He's saying, "I assume, I presume. I

8 think this should have been the case." I don't think these questions are

9 good. I think the only thing the witness could be asked is what he

10 actually saw. But what the tank was supposed to do, what the tank crew

11 was supposed to do, that's beyond his knowledge. So I object to the

12 questions that are asking the witness to speculate.

13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, may I briefly respond? The witness

14 was briefed about the operation. I think it's reasonable to expect the

15 witness would have been provided information, not only about his own

16 tasks, but the type of support he would have received in conducting the

17 operation. So I think they are fair questions. He was present and I

18 think he's in a position to give us information about what the tank was

19 doing, what it was supposed to do, what it didn't do, and what its targets

20 were. That's all I'm asking.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But it seems to me that this witness provided us

22 with a very little knowledge of what actually the tank was doing at that

23 time, and one thing we want to understand is that whether the sandbags

24 blocked the view or blocked the gun of the tank at that particular point,

25 because we heard some witness who said that in this direction. Would you

Page 15121

1 please ask a question about -- in this direction?

2 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.

3 Q. Witness, I'm going to put Judge Liu's question to you, but first,

4 before I do that, let's establish if you can give us an approximate -- an

5 estimation, the distance between the position of the tank and the

6 buildings that were the tank's target on the other side of the Bulevar.

7 What's the distance there?

8 A. 30 metres, let's say 40 metres.

9 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that if the sandbags -- isn't it true, sir,

10 that the sandbags were at such a height that they would have been too high

11 for the tank's turret to target those positions, particularly the basement

12 of those positions, from such a close distance, while it's positioned

13 behind a wall of sandbags that's either one and three-quarters or two

14 metres high?

15 A. The sandbags were piled one on top of the other without any things

16 in between, without -- it was very -- without them being stuck together.

17 So it was very easy to knock them over. So the tank could have been

18 firing anywhere on the basements wherever it wanted to do so.

19 Q. So it would have been necessary to remove at least some of the

20 sandbags so that the tank could fire on its targets?

21 A. Yes, perhaps one or two.

22 Q. Now, another question, and then -- and directing your attention

23 back to the photograph here, and maybe I could ask you to place a marking

24 on this photograph again that shows the position of the sandbags, just so

25 that we've got that. You've marked the sandbag position on the first

Page 15122

1 photograph. Could you just put it in the same place on that one so that

2 we ...

3 A. [marks]

4 Q. Okay. Now, again, setting aside the angle or the inclination of

5 the turret of the tank, it seems to me, sir, that from that position, the

6 tank's -- the ability of the tank shooter to position the turret

7 horizontally would have been extremely limited by the fact that the health

8 centre and the building across the street were next to it. It seems to me

9 quite impossible for the tank to hit most of the positions that you've

10 circled from the position behind the sandbags?

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek?

12 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I object. This is not a question. This

13 is an argument.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer, please?

15 MR. MEEK: I object to the form of the supposed question. It's

16 not a question, it's simply argument. It's argumentative in nature. This

17 witness has said he's never been in a tank. He doesn't know anything and

18 it's speculation. But the form of the question is not a question. I

19 object to that.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, I think the question asked by the

21 Prosecutor is what we want to know.

22 Witness, you may answer that question.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I assumed that the tank

24 fired on to the basement. That's what I expected. I expected the enemy

25 soldiers to be in the basement. But to be honest, I don't know where the

Page 15123

1 tank hit. I know that it fired two or three times. Perhaps that was the

2 reason that the tank returned. Perhaps the crew saw that they couldn't

3 hit. But this would be slightly longer story. They were not only in the

4 basement, the enemy soldiers. They were also behind the building. If you

5 hit the wall from this building, this derelict building with a grenade,

6 with a shell, this wall could fall on to the enemy soldiers, which are

7 behind it. It happened on one occasion, it happened that the wall of this

8 building just fell, just like that, by itself, and we heard that somebody

9 was calling for help from the enemy side. It was probably because of the

10 rain that the wall became damp and then it became -- it was easy for it to

11 fall.

12 So I suppose the tank could have aimed at the basement or perhaps

13 something else. I don't know. But I really don't understand what you're

14 trying to achieve with this kind of questions, Mr. Prosecutor. Perhaps it

15 couldn't hit the basement but ...


17 Q. Let me try to ask it a little more clearly. Looking at the circle

18 that you made around the enemy positions, and moving outs to the buildings

19 located on the extreme right of the circle, can you put the pointer on

20 those? A bit closer to the -- the structure, yeah. It seems to me that

21 it would have been impossible for the tank to shell those positions; is

22 that correct, from its position behind the sandbags, it would have been

23 obstructed by the health centre?

24 A. Well, a few metres of the building could not be hit.

25 Q. Tell me what part of the building could have been hit.

Page 15124

1 A. Shall I mark it or? [marks]

2 Q. Witness, you've just made a marking on this photograph, putting

3 lines through a part of the circle you marked previously. Is it your

4 testimony that these are all areas that the tank would have been able to

5 hit from its position behind the sandbags?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Well, sir, it seems to me --

8 A. I guess. I guess. That's a -- it is more precise.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, may I just have a quick moment,

10 please, to consult?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, and Mr. Stringer, we have spent a lot of time on

12 that point. I hope you come to the next subject.

13 MR. STRINGER: I understand.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. STRINGER: Could I ask the Registrar to replace this

16 photograph with the other one marked on by the witness yesterday?

17 Q. Witness, isn't it true that the position of the tank, according to

18 your testimony, was at all times on the side of the health centre and that

19 because of the position of the health centre the tank would not have been

20 able to hit virtually any of the position that is you've just marked on

21 this other photograph? Isn't that true?

22 A. You'll have to repeat the question, please. I wasn't really

23 focusing.

24 Q. Looking at the position of the sandbags as you've marked it on

25 your photograph from yesterday, if the tank remained behind the sandbags

Page 15125

1 sir, isn't it true that the health centre, the structure of the health

2 centre would have obstructed and prevented the tank from firing on

3 virtually all of the positions that you've just marked in the other

4 photograph?

5 A. The building is not obstructing the view, but it will be simpler

6 to see if you had given us the ground plan, because from this angle, when

7 the photograph was taken from this angle, then you do not get quite an

8 accurate, a completely accurate picture of the positions. So I'm again

9 making assumptions. Now, whether I went wrong a metre or maybe two, I

10 don't know how big an error that is. It could be an error that -- I'm

11 professionally an engineer, so I suppose I should also been a better

12 draftsman.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, now that we are talking

15 about the health centre structure, whether it is an obstruction or not, I

16 think it is important to say that what we see on this photograph does not

17 show the health centre building as it was at the time, so that first

18 should be made clear and then ask the witness what kind of a building was

19 there, how tall was it, and was it obstructing the view then? This is a

20 photograph made with a new building there and we cannot really discuss a

21 situation way was completely different. But anyway the Prosecutor has the

22 photographer of the old health centre and let us use that and with that

23 old photograph, perhaps we shall be able to see whether it was possible or

24 not.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, you are giving testimony by yourself.

Page 15126

1 All we want to hear is the answer from this witness. If there is great

2 changes in the structure of the health building, the witness will tell us

3 about it.

4 And Mr. Stringer, I've already said that we have spent so much

5 time on this point. I think it's time for you to move on.

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, it's my last line of questioning and

7 it happens that we do have an old photograph in the courtroom that may be

8 of -- of a bit of assistance, if I could ask the Trial Chamber's

9 indulgence to very briefly show this photograph to the witness, it may

10 assist.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.

12 MR. STRINGER: I'll ask the Registrar, it this is marked 14.20. I

13 don't know if Mr. Par has seen it. You may want to show it to him first.

14 If you could put this on the ELMO?

15 Q. Witness, if you could take a moment to look at this photograph,

16 orientate yourself, does this appear to more closely resemble the

17 conditions in the vicinity of the health centre, the fountain, during the

18 conflict?

19 A. No. This is even worse. The best thing would have been if you

20 had brought a ground plan, that is a view from above.

21 Q. On this photograph --

22 A. Because you know, in that case, one could see what a tank could

23 aim at and what it couldn't aim at.

24 Q. Can you mark the structure of the health centre on this

25 photograph?

Page 15127

1 A. [marks]

2 Q. It seems to me from the other photographs that you've made, that

3 the line of sandbags was to some extent back from the edge of the health

4 centre on Liska Street. Is that correct?

5 A. Could you repeat it, please?

6 Q. The line of sandbags was extending from a point of the health

7 centre structure across Liska Street. That is to say the line of sandbags

8 was not forward of the health centre. Rather it was back along the side

9 of the health centre. Is that correct?

10 A. They were next to the health centre but two or three metres

11 forward. Now, let me repeat it. So, no, let's do it this way. Now, I'm

12 pointing at the health centre. The sandbags were from this line in that

13 direction, or perhaps a metre or two forward. This part which I am

14 pointing at now was our bunker. This is a transverse wall and one or two

15 metres forward and I know it very well because that is where I was

16 wounded.

17 Q. You were wounded in the bunker?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The bunker was forward of the sandbags?

20 A. No, behind them, a metre or two. Or perhaps flush with them.

21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that it's time for a break. We

23 will break until quarter to 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

Page 15128

1 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Par?

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Par:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, let's start with the time when you went

5 to join the 2nd guards Brigade. What does it mean a professional unit?

6 Does it mean that somebody who joins that unit needs to sign a contract

7 with it, a professional contract?

8 A. Yes, that's what it means. I signed my first contract for three

9 years.

10 Q. And does that contract mean that you are to get pay from that

11 unit, that it is a kind of full-time job, that during the three years you

12 have a guaranteed livelihood, simply by the fact that you are a member of

13 that unit?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at the time when you joined this professional guards brigade,

16 was it exactly at that time that this brigade was formed and was it one of

17 the first formations in the professional army in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, at this point I'm going

19 to object to leading questions.

20 JUDGE LIU: I don't see why it's a leading question. You may

21 proceed, Mr. Par.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. And which year was it?

25 A. Late -- no, beginning of 1994.

Page 15129

1 Q. So at that time, 1994, the war was already over. Were those ATGs

2 already dissolved or about to be dissolved, all those ATGs like the Vinko

3 Skrobo?

4 A. Well, I assume they were dissolved by that time but I'm not sure,

5 I'm not really quite sure.

6 Q. So when you went to join this guards brigade, what was that

7 motivated you to?

8 A. I wanted to resolve the -- my problems, problems of livelihood, of

9 pay.

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I apologise to interpreters.

11 Q. So you wanted to have the problem of livelihood solved. Was there

12 any other reason for which you quit the Vinko Skrobo apart from that

13 particular reason that you told us, that it was solving your economic

14 status, your livelihood?

15 A. Well, that was the chief reason. Perhaps there were some others.

16 But that one was the principal one.

17 Q. So there were some others -- were there some -- was that other

18 reason that those ATGs would be disbanded and that therefore you

19 wouldn't -- there wouldn't be any room for you there?

20 A. Could be.

21 Q. And now, when you joined this guards professional brigade, were

22 those ATGs dissolved meanwhile? The war was over, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes. The war against the Muslims was over and I suppose that

24 these units were dissolved, yes, yes, yes, they were.

25 Q. And did you stay with this guards professional brigade as a

Page 15130

1 professional soldier? Did you get your pay?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Very well. Now, let's go back to, if we can find a clean

4 photograph, 14.5, if I have a clean copy, and could we then have it on the


6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par?

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes?

8 JUDGE LIU: Why are you going to use a clean copy? The

9 re-examination should be within the scope of the cross-examination.

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I wanted a clean copy, I do not know

11 whether I should explain it now in front of the witness or perhaps the

12 witness should leave the courtroom for a while. But I want to use a clean

13 copy because I want to establish once again where those sandbags were

14 because there is something I would like to point out at.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I'd like to add something to

16 what I said before.

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer?

18 MR. STRINGER: I object to any re-establishing the positions of

19 the sandbags.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, our suggestion is that you use that

21 copy marked by the witness during the cross-examination, and if you want

22 to make a clarification of certain points, you are entitled to do so.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very well. Could we then have one of

24 the previous 14.5 documents? That is the one on which the witness marked

25 the sandbags and explained their location. Yes, you can leave this one.

Page 15131

1 Q. Let's begin with the tank. So you were asked several times by the

2 Prosecutor and you answered what the tank was expected to do, what it was

3 expected to target and so on and so forth. Now, my question is simple.

4 All those answer that is you gave to the Prosecutor, was it your own

5 knowledge or did you hear from somebody what the tank was expected to do?

6 A. I didn't know. I knew that the tanks was -- that the tank was to

7 come.

8 Q. But these answer that is you gave the Prosecutor in relation to

9 what the tank was expected to do, was it the result of your assumptions or

10 information that you had?

11 A. Well, my wishes, what I thought that the tank should do, that is

12 my opinion.

13 Q. Did anyone ever that day or on the eve of that day, explain the

14 task that the tank was to have that day, what it would target, where it

15 would go?

16 A. No, nobody did. All I knew was the tank was to come. That is all

17 that I knew.

18 Q. Now, let's look at this photograph and these markings. Can you

19 please explain to me, not to me but to everybody in this courtroom, which

20 path, which way did you use to come to the front line? Will you take the

21 pointer up and show us?

22 A. We would take this path here, between the buildings where I am

23 just pointing.

24 Q. Now, when you came there, you mentioned a cord, you mentioned a

25 cable strung above the Liska Street. Where was it? Where is it on the

Page 15132

1 photograph?

2 A. I'll tell you approximately. I think that it was between these

3 two buildings.

4 Q. Will you then draw it there?

5 A. No, sorry, I was -- I went slightly wrong. I think I should push

6 it two or three metres back, somewhere here.

7 Q. And mark it. Put, for instance, S, so that we know that it's a

8 cord.

9 THE INTERPRETER: That is "sajla" in B/C/S.

10 A. [marks]

11 Q. So this cord, this cable was there, what was its purpose? What

12 was there on it?

13 A. There were some carpets hanging from it so that the snipers -- so

14 that the snipers from the opposite side could not see men pass by.

15 Q. And how high was it?

16 A. Seven, eight metres, perhaps.

17 Q. Seven, eight metres. So the visibility was nil, one couldn't see?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Now, after that cord, you come across another obstacle, that is

20 the sandbags, and where are they, these sandbags in relation to the cord?

21 A. During my earlier testimony, I forgot to mention that there was

22 yet another row of sandbags between these two buildings.

23 Q. Well, then, draw them now then.

24 A. [marks]

25 Q. So that is where there was another row of sandbags. So this tank,

Page 15133

1 when it came up, at which particular row of sandbags did it stop?

2 A. Those next to the -- no, no, no, next to the second row, those

3 that are in front.

4 Q. How far did it get?

5 A. Well, where I showed the first time.

6 Q. Here, we heard several testimonies showing that the tank was next

7 to the first row of sandbags. Can you now positively state?

8 A. No, I couldn't really positively state it because I was inside the

9 building, but I mean it was judging by the sound that I concluded it was

10 quite near me but.

11 Q. That is what I'm trying to establish quite precisely because my

12 impression was that you in your testimony, that you base your testimony on

13 some assumptions and we want you to clearly tell us what you assumed and

14 what you really saw for the Court. Can you tell us positively whether you

15 saw or whether you recall next to which sandbags did the tank fetch up?

16 If you're not sure, then tell us so.

17 A. When, that is better for me not to say anything because I'm not

18 really sure, then it's better for me not to say anything.

19 Q. But would you allow that it was possible for the tank to be next

20 to the upper, to the second row of the sandbags?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

23 MR. STRINGER: I object to the form of that question,

24 Mr. President, and I move that the witness's answer be stricken.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par. I think it's a leading question.

Page 15134

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I'll ask the witness

2 something else.

3 Q. Please, can you tell us positively today, next to which sandbags

4 the tank exactly fetched up or can't you tell us that? Can you --

5 A. No, no, no, I can not be definite.

6 Q. And are you sure that there were some sandbags up there?

7 A. Yes, yes, yes, I'm quite sure that there were some sandbags up

8 there. In my earlier testimony I simply did not think it was all that

9 important, and to be quite frank, I mean, I don't really understand these

10 questions about the sandbags. Why should it be all so important? There

11 were the sandbags surely, the ones that I omitted and I'm sorry that it

12 happened but, yes, there were -- they were there and other witnesses will

13 confirm that.

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Can I just for a moment -- may I

15 consult my client, please?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. [counsel confers with client]

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No more questions, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 Q. Witness, first of all, this is probably a little personal but it

21 helps the Judges, I think. You described where you used to live before

22 the war and what happened to your home, and where you now live. Have

23 there been any people in your position who have been able to go back to

24 the area - I don't want to identify it - where you originally had your

25 family home?

Page 15135

1 A. Could you please repeat the question?

2 JUDGE CLARK: I'm being deliberately evasive because I don't want

3 to identify you or where you came from, but knowing your ethnic background

4 and where your family used to have their family home, which was destroyed

5 just before the 9th of May, 1993, what I'm asking you is: Has nobody in

6 your position been able to go back to that same area now that the war is

7 over?

8 A. The area where I had lived before, there are not many Croats.

9 There is nobody to return there, except me.

10 JUDGE CLARK: I see. If you wanted to return, would it be a

11 possibility or a probability?

12 A. I would not return there.

13 JUDGE CLARK: I see. Now, if I could go on to some questions in

14 relation to this case, I'm a little confused about your career during the

15 war. You described to us how you were inducted into the HVO, that you had

16 no choice about it, you were conscripted, and then you described your

17 disenchantment with the HVO and you joined Mr. Martinovic's unit. How

18 was that permitted, that one could just walk away from an army commitment

19 and choose another unit?

20 A. At that time, and not only in that town but throughout the area,

21 there was a lot of confusion about. It wasn't stable. It wasn't like

22 here in Netherlands. You can do certain things that wouldn't be allowed

23 here.

24 JUDGE CLARK: So did you even have to get permission from your

25 local commander to change over to what you described was a

Page 15136

1 non-professional, voluntary unit? The Mrmak at that time?

2 A. I, probably out of politeness, I asked to be released, but I could

3 have done without it, I think.

4 JUDGE CLARK: At the time in Mostar, following the 9th of May, was

5 it possible for an able-bodied man, a man of military age, to walk freely

6 through the town? Or did you have to go through checkpoints and show ID?

7 A. Well, it was a good thing to have a uniform, because there was a

8 law on mobilisation at the time. I think there was. I assume there was.

9 JUDGE CLARK: So can I take it from that that there might be

10 people who would stop you and say, "What unit are you with or what right

11 have you got to be in this particular part of town?"

12 A. Probably, yes, but it didn't happen to me.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Did you have an ID card when you belonged either to

14 the HVO unit or to Vinko Skrobo?

15 A. I think I did, yes, I did.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Would you have had two different cards or would the

17 same card have done for your whole period before you joined the

18 professional unit?

19 A. I think they were different. I think.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Is it possible that you stayed with Vinko Skrobo for

21 a little bit longer than October? And the reason I ask you this is that

22 we've heard from witnesses who were part of the setting up of the new

23 professional unit, that it was a little bit later than October that it was

24 set up and I think your counsel agrees that it was really into 1994. So

25 would you accept that you might be wrong about having left Vinko Skrobo in

Page 15137

1 October, 1993?

2 A. I moved to another unit, which then later on in its entirety

3 transferred to the 2nd Guards Brigade. I didn't go directly. I didn't

4 mention it because I didn't think it was that important, because at that

5 unit where I had been, all the soldiers had decided to sign a professional

6 contract.

7 JUDGE CLARK: The reason I ask you this is that because we've seen

8 documents in relation to other witnesses, and these documents have been

9 presented on a number of occasions, and looking through those documents,

10 we would see your name as being on the pay list of Vinko Skrobo on the 2nd

11 of December, 1993. What would you say about that?

12 A. I wouldn't be able to state anything regarding the dates. It

13 could be that date or it could be one month or two months earlier that I

14 left the unit. I'm not sure. Perhaps our salaries were late. I wouldn't

15 be able to say. I'm just assuming here.

16 JUDGE CLARK: And when the time came for you to leave the Vinko

17 Skrobo unit, how did you do that? Did you tell your unit group leader or

18 did you go to Mr. Martinovic? Or did you just slip away?

19 A. No. I told the group commander.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Now, if I can bring you to the events of the 17th of

21 September, and you have answered very extensively in relation to that day,

22 can I take it that it was a very unusual day, that there was an air of

23 tension and fear and anticipation on that day compared with other days

24 when you were at the front line?

25 A. Yes. It could be said, yes.

Page 15138

1 JUDGE CLARK: When you worked on different shifts, I take it that

2 as a general rule, you worked with the same group of people, with the same

3 group commander, so you would become very familiar with that group?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Could one follow from that logically that there

6 would be members of different groups on different shifts that you would

7 very rarely meet or might not meet at all?

8 A. Yes. There were such, yes. We would meet them very rarely, yes.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Would it be possible for you to see people who were

10 maybe on duty in and around coming off duty, coming on duty, as you were

11 arriving or leaving your shift who might seem like strangers to you?

12 A. I'm not sure. It may be, I'm really not sure. Some people I knew

13 very well. And some people I didn't know so well.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Well, on the day of the 17th, a very special day

15 when there was an attempt obviously to break through the confrontation

16 line and to take some extra land, to move forward, you said that the

17 whole unit was there and there were other units also. On that day, did

18 you see people that -- or could you have seen people that you didn't know

19 or didn't recognise?

20 A. I can't quite remember it that way. Most of the people I knew.

21 Most of the people who were on the front line I knew. As far as I can

22 recall. But these are details I cannot remember. The most important

23 thing for me was to stay alive. That was my main point, my main idea

24 because before the war I was a civilian I was not a professional soldier.

25 So these are the things that I was thinking about.

Page 15139

1 JUDGE CLARK: Believe me, I can quite appreciate that. Before the

2 tank actually engaged and fired -- I mean it would obviously have had to

3 come from somewhere making a huge amount of noise. If you can recall that

4 date, were you are instructions to exchange fire so that there was a lot

5 of noise to distract the enemy's attention from the arrival of the tank?

6 A. I don't remember that, and I don't believe it to be so but I don't

7 remember. I'm just an ordinary soldier. I can't answer these questions.

8 I don't know.

9 JUDGE CLARK: I'm afraid I find that difficult to accept that

10 you're an ordinary soldier. You were probably one of the best-educated

11 men on the unit, and also you were a professional, civil engineer so your

12 education would have given you, I believe, advantages. Do you recall, was

13 there an exceptional amount of shooting before the tank arrived? If you

14 don't remember, that's all you have to say.

15 A. I don't remember. Really.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Do you remember if there had been any preparations

17 for the arrival of the tank the day before? Was there any discussion

18 about the use of the tank?

19 A. As far as I know, there weren't much, but I don't remember. No, I

20 really don't know. I don't know.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Do you have any recollection that there were fairly

22 massive casualties that day for a small group of people on the front

23 line? Do you have any recollection of that?

24 A. I remember the unit next to ours had several losses,

25 unfortunately.

Page 15140

1 JUDGE CLARK: I'd suggest to you that it was more than several

2 people who lost their lives. There were quite a lot of people. It means

3 nothing to you?

4 A. I don't know what you mean by "quite a lot."

5 JUDGE CLARK: I think it was more than two or three or four or

6 five.

7 A. Maybe, but I wouldn't know. I know there were losses. I know

8 there were people killed but I don't know the exact number.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you for your assistance.

10 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions? Mr. Par?

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] [no interpretation]

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer?


14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Witness, thank you for coming

15 here to give your evidence. When Madam Usher pulls down the blinds, she

16 will show you out of the room. We all wish you a pleasant journey back

17 home.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender,

20 Mr. Par?

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would propose to

22 tender D2/44, that is the name and the surname of the witness and the

23 seal. And then D2/45, the map that I used in the examination-in-chief,

24 also under seal. D2/46, a photograph. 14.5. And the photographs

25 probably -- what the witness marked on. Now, I don't know whether there

Page 15141

1 is a number. I think that will be entered. I think these are the

2 exhibits. Thank you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections, Mr. Stringer?

5 MR. STRINGER: No objections, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Those documents are admitted into

7 evidence. Do you have any documents to admit, Mr. Stringer?

8 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, we would offer the photograph

9 14.5 that was -- that the witness marked on during his cross-examination,

10 and then also Exhibit 520.1 which he was shown yesterday.

11 JUDGE LIU: How about that photograph P14.20?

12 MR. STRINGER: Yes, I'd forgotten about that one, Mr. President.

13 Thank you, the photograph 14.20 we also would offer.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any objections, Mr. Par?

15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No. I have no objections, but I object

16 to P20 in relation to the objection that I -- 520, if that is the same

17 document in relation to what I said yesterday.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, we have already made a ruling

19 yesterday, saying that we rejected those documents because of their late

20 submission, not because of their contents. And in this document, in

21 relation of this document, we have already admitted some other documents

22 in this aspect. So we believe that this document is relevant to this

23 case. So we decided this document is admitted into the evidence, as well

24 as the document P14.5 and P14.20 are admitted into the evidence. It is so

25 decided.

Page 15142

1 Madam Usher, could we have the next witness, please?

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you. Good morning.

5 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

11 Yes, Mr. Par?

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Examined by Mr. Par:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Before we start with the

15 questions, I would like to tell you that the Trial Chamber has approved

16 protection measures for you so your face and your name will be protected

17 and all the data, information related to you personally. To start with, I

18 will hand you a piece of paper on which your name is written. If this is

19 correct, could you please just say yes? Don't read it aloud.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. We will try during the questions to speak as slowly as possible

22 and to make pauses between my questions and your answers.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, now I would ask to go

24 into closed session for a few moments, please.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

Page 15143

1 [Private session]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15144













13 Page 15144 redacted private session













Page 15145

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [Open session]

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

Page 15146

1 Q. Witness, can you please tell us at the time of the Serbian

2 aggression on Mostar, could you tell us what happened to you? Were you at

3 the time a member of the army? How did you live through the Serb

4 aggression on Mostar?

5 A. I was engaged in the reserve police until the reserve force of the

6 JNA Army came, until the 14th of September, 1991. On the 16th of

7 September, I joined the reserve force of the police.

8 Q. Could you it tell me joined, were you mobilised? In what way?

9 A. No, I was not.

10 Q. How did that happen?

11 A. No, I was not mobilised. I volunteered. I volunteered to join

12 the reserve force.

13 Q. And what was the reserve force of the police doing at that time?

14 What were your duties? What were your tasks?

15 A. The reserve force of the police did the same as the regular

16 forces. We were checking the traffic and we were on duty.

17 Q. And could you tell us until when did you stay in the reserve force

18 of the police?

19 A. The reserve force, I stayed until the conflict escalated, when the

20 aggression started, against Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Mostar itself was

21 until about April.

22 Q. What was the reason for you to leave in April, 1992, to leave the

23 reserve police force?

24 A. It was disbanded, the reserve police force was disbanded, was

25 dissolved and we all volunteered to join the defence of the town.

Page 15147

1 Q. Did you also personally join the defence of the town and how?

2 A. Yes, I did. I joined the defence of the town. I volunteered and

3 at that time I became a member of HOS.

4 Q. Very well. Which HOS unit? Where was it stationed?

5 A. The HOS unit was there to defend the town, and it was from the

6 territory of the town of Mostar.

7 Q. Will you now tell us who commanded that HOS unit?

8 A. It was commanded, that is the commander of HOS in Mostar was Vinko

9 Martinovic, Stela.

10 Q. Did you know Vinko Martinovic, Stela, before that?

11 A. Yes, I did. I knew him before the war because we lived nearby.

12 We lived practically in the same neighbourhood.

13 Q. And on what kind of terms were you, what kind of relationship did

14 you have with him? Were you acquaintances, friends, or what, before the

15 war?

16 A. Well, we knew one another. We simply came from the same

17 neighbourhood, nothing much.

18 Q. Can you now briefly tell us about -- something about that unit,

19 how strong was it, how many members did it have?

20 A. That unit was like every other unit that defended the town. It

21 could have been about 30, 40 men strong.

22 Q. Did that number increase or was it always the same?

23 A. Well, it increased or sometimes decreased. People came and went.

24 To join other units at times.

25 Q. Do you remember anything about the ethnic composition of that

Page 15148

1 unit?

2 A. In ethnic terms, there were Serbs and Croats and Muslims together

3 because our goal was to defend the town against the aggression, nothing

4 else.

5 Q. So tell me now what were the duties of the unit? What did you do

6 specifically? Did you participate in any actions? What were your

7 duties? What were the duties of the members of that unit?

8 A. Well, we guarded the bridges until they were blown up and then you

9 know how it was. There was street combat between the buildings. So that

10 was that.

11 Q. Did you personally participate with that unit in the fighting for

12 the liberation of Mostar?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Can you tell us something about the name, about the reputation

15 that unit enjoyed in Mostar, especially after the liberation from the Serb

16 aggression?

17 A. Well, we were appreciated there highly because we went where

18 others were reluctant to go. We usually went to places which were

19 dangerous.

20 Q. Will you tell us now how long did you stay with that unit?

21 A. I stayed with that unit until it was disbanded. I wouldn't know

22 the exact date. I don't remember it.

23 Q. So when that unit was disbanded, and when you left it, were you

24 militarily engaged anywhere else apart from that?

25 THE INTERPRETER: And could Mr. Par also speak into his

Page 15149

1 microphone?

2 A. Yes, I did. I went to join the battalion at the Heliodrom.

3 JUDGE LIU: Two things to remind you. One, please make a pause

4 between the question and the answers. Two, you are reminded to speak

5 directly into the microphone.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My apologies

7 to the interpreters.

8 Q. So after you left HOS, you joined that unit. Is it an HVO unit?

9 A. Yes, it is. It is an HVO unit.

10 Q. Where was this unit stationed and what were your tasks there?

11 What did you do there?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Par please bring list microphone

13 closer to him?

14 A. Our unit was stationed at the Heliodrom. It was the old air force

15 school of the Yugoslav People's Army. My duties were -- my duties in that

16 unit because it was a mixed artillery battalion and our tasks were.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we could not hear the end of the

18 witness's answer.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

20 Q. The 9th of May, 1993, the day when -- the interpreters are warning

21 that they could not hear the end of your last answer, and that is the

22 question where were you stationed and what were your duties. So I have to

23 ask you to repeat your answer to that question.

24 A. The unit was stationed at the Heliodrom. That was the former air

25 base of the Yugoslav People's Army, and the air force school. My task

Page 15150












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 15150 to 15153.













Page 15154

1 was, that is I was trained for anti-armoured operations.

2 Q. The 9th of May, 1993, the day when the conflict between the Croats

3 and Muslims started, find you there as a member of that unit?

4 A. Yes. I was a member of this mixed artillery battalion.

5 Q. Will you now tell us briefly, that 9th of May, 1993, what happened

6 to you personally? Will you tell us what you did that day, how did you

7 see that day and the conflict that broke out that day?

8 A. A day before that, I had a day off, and that morning, that is in

9 the morning of the 9th of May I was to go to the Heliodrom, to the mix the

10 artillery battalion. However, sometime early in the morning, that is at

11 day break I heard gunfire and I couldn't understand. I was at sea. I

12 didn't know what was happening because it was all calm before that. I

13 came out to the balcony and I could see people running to and fro and

14 there were some soldiers there, so I asked some people from the

15 neighbourhood what's going on and they explained to us that the Muslims

16 had launched an action and that they were advancing towards Rondo. And

17 I don't know, I merely put on the uniform of my own will. I picked up the

18 rifle, the one that I had, and I went out and joined those men.

19 Q. And it happened at about what time?

20 A. I don't know. Sometime in the morning. I don't know. Somehow in

21 the morning. That's when it was. The day was breaking. It was dawn.

22 Q. And now with that group, you go -- you are moving towards the

23 Rondo. That is towards the place from which the attack is advancing, and

24 what do you do? What happens then? Is there any fighting? Where were

25 you? Where -- how far did you manage to get?

Page 15155

1 A. So we reached the Rondo, there were already some soldiers there,

2 and yes, there was fighting there, so we joined in. We joined in this

3 skirmish with the Muslim troops, and we gradually push them back towards

4 the health centre.

5 Q. Will you -- are you telling us that these units, and if I may put

6 it that way, of the Muslim army had already penetrated into the depth, to

7 the Rondo, or was is it that you clashed with them?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

9 MR. STRINGER: We object to the leading question, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think it is a leading question because

11 the witness answered gave us the same doubts about the response.

12 Mr. Par, you may rephrase your question in some other way.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You were saying that you had contact and fighting with the Muslim

15 troops that day. Where did this fighting take place? Where was the

16 front -- I mean the front line at which you were that morning?

17 A. That morning they had penetrated into a depth, perhaps as much as

18 15 metres from the Rondo, 10 to 15 metres from the Rondo, and that is

19 where the fighting started and we were pushing them back towards the

20 health centre.

21 Q. And the Rondo of course is near -- in the west -- on the west side

22 of Mostar?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Very well. Now, did you manage to push them back? How much did

Page 15156

1 you push them back? And what did you do then?

2 A. The fighting lasted almost a whole day, and we managed to push

3 them as far as the health centre, and several of them, several of them

4 were in the health centre and they also retreated after our attack. They

5 also retreated across the Bulevar.

6 Q. That morning, that day, around the health centre, did you see

7 Vinko Martinovic, Stela, there?

8 A. No. I didn't see him that day, and I couldn't see him because

9 there was too much commotion and then fighting and action, so I couldn't

10 see him. I didn't see him there.

11 Q. But later on, did you learn in some way where he was that

12 particular day, that 9th of May, during the combat?

13 A. Well, no, not personally but I heard from others that he was

14 somewhere there along that front line. Where exactly, I don't know but he

15 was there and that he had participated in the -- in the action.

16 Q. So that day, that 9th of May, when did you first see Vinko

17 Martinovic, Stela?

18 A. After that 9th of May, after we had pushed back to the health

19 centre and away from the health centre, across the Bulevar, then I saw him

20 the next day, when things had calmed down a little, so I saw him the very

21 next day, on the 10th of May.

22 Q. So where was Vinko Martinovic, Stela, on that 10th of May? With

23 whom was he and what were the circumstances under which you saw him?

24 A. Why, we met somewhere there, between the health centre and Rondo.

25 He was with some plain soldiers. He wasn't with anybody important, with

Page 15157

1 people like we were.

2 Q. And after that 10th of May, after your encounter on the 10th of

3 May, after that, did you have any contact with him? Did you used to see

4 him after that?

5 A. Yes. We saw each other after that because we, who on that 9th of

6 May, had embarked on the defence, that day we simply saw him, because we

7 had put together a kind of a group, a small unit, nothing official, but we

8 had a small group of sorts and we saw him.

9 Q. Were you in the same group with him or did he have somebody else?

10 Did you merge with his group or some other group? Will you please explain

11 it to us? What do you mean when you say, "We formed a small group"? How

12 did it come about?

13 A. Well, it came about on a voluntary basis simply people got

14 together. I don't know how to explain it. But at that particular point

15 of time, none of us cared which unit each one of us belonged. All we

16 cared about was how to push back the Muslim troops. And after that, we

17 decided that each one on his own to quit the units that we had belonged to

18 formerly and to join a new formation.

19 Q. Right. So you joined what is that formation, how strong is it?

20 Who is its commander? Where are you?

21 A. That formation was 25 men strong, 20, 25 men strong, in the early

22 days, our commander was Vinko Martinovic, Stela, and we had elected him of

23 our own volition to be our commander, because he had already proven

24 himself in the war against the Serb troops as somebody with authority.

25 Q. And where did this unit hold positions? Where was it stationed?

Page 15158

1 A. That unit held positions in the area of the health centre.

2 Q. And at that time, did this unit, and I'm referring to the 10th of

3 May, and after it did it have any name?

4 A. At that time the unit didn't have any name officially but we,

5 between us, called it Mrmak, after Stela's dog.

6 Q. And did it receive any logistic support from somebody, armaments,

7 uniforms or anything to do with the military needs?

8 A. No. Right at the beginning, we did not enjoy any logistic

9 support, because the unit was still in the process of being formed. So

10 that these things were not yet put in proper place.

11 Q. How long did you remain with the unit?

12 A. I remained with it until the very end of the war with the

13 Muslims.

14 Q. Now, in relation to that beginning, to the very beginning, when

15 you got together and stayed, during the time that you spent in the unit,

16 what changed? Did the number of men in the unit grow up with time?

17 A. Well, yes, the number of men increased, which is only natural.

18 People came to the unit.

19 Q. And how much?

20 A. Well, it grew up to be some 40, 45 men strong.

21 Q. This unit, did it ever change the positions which it took

22 initially next to the health centre?

23 A. No. We never changed. We never moved to another position

24 throughout the war against the Muslims, never moved away from the health

25 centre.

Page 15159

1 Q. Was it given any new assignments, apart from guarding the front

2 line? Was it ever sent to some other actions possibly?

3 A. No, never. We never went anywhere. Our area of responsibility

4 was only the health centre, and nothing but the health centre.

5 Q. And over time, did the commander of the unit change or was it

6 always the same person?

7 A. No, no changes. Vinko Martinovic was the commander throughout.

8 Q. Did the unit change its name?

9 A. Yes. When the unit acquired a structure, then eventually we

10 became -- we were given the name of Vinko Skrobo and we became an HVO

11 unit.

12 Q. You say an HVO unit. Under whose command in the HVO?

13 A. Well, the complete front line of the town defence was under the

14 staff of the town defence. We were also put under the command -- under

15 the command of the town defence.

16 Q. So did you then begin to receive the logistic support and all --

17 everything that you needed?

18 A. Yes, yes, yes. We were getting all that we needed.

19 Q. Now I'd like to show you a map, that is a photograph.

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If there is a clean copy of 14.5, we

21 would like to show it to the witness, because I have 14.4, which is almost

22 identical but -- if not, then we shall use 14.4.

23 Q. Very well. So we have before us photograph 14.5. It is an aerial

24 photograph of a section of the Bulevar, and now, Witness, I want to ask

25 you to look at the photograph and show us where were the positions --

Page 15160

1 where the positions of your unit were.

2 A. The positions of my unit were strictly in the health centre. This

3 is the health centre building, and that is where our positions were,

4 within this building.

5 Q. Will you now take a marker and make a circle?

6 A. [marks]

7 Q. Now, this building that you call health centre, will you put

8 number 1?

9 A. [marks]

10 Q. Otherwise, what was there in this building, in this health

11 centre? Were there certain positions, some guard posts?

12 A. Yes, that is where your positions and guard posts were, at certain

13 points there were guard posts.

14 Q. Now, tell us whether you had anywhere some reserve forces, some

15 standby position where the soldiers would be waiting?

16 A. Yes, we did have a reserve, and they were in this building over

17 there.

18 Q. Will you mark it with number 2?

19 A. [marks]

20 Q. Tell me, and where was your headquarters? Where was your command

21 post?

22 A. The command post was, if you took this street, then a kilometre a

23 kilometre and a half or 1200 metres towards the centre of the town.

24 Q. Witness, tell me, this front line, was it fortified in some

25 way?

Page 15161

1 A. This front line was fortified a little bit. Nothing much. And

2 those were mostly the openings, that is holes in the walls that we had

3 made ourselves.

4 Q. We are talking about this building, about the health centre?

5 A. Yes, I'm talking about the health centre.

6 Q. Was there any protection, any shield, any screen, from sniper or

7 other gunfire or were there any obstacles on the street which passes by

8 the health centre, that is the Liska Street? Can you tell us something

9 about that?

10 A. Yes. There were some kind of -- there was some kind of

11 protection.

12 Q. Will you please show us where?

13 A. Well, behind this building, behind the building which housed the

14 reserve force, there, in this part of this street.

15 Q. And what kind of protection was it?

16 A. We had bags and garbage containers which had been placed across

17 the street and above it we had a cord with carpets so that we were

18 protected against the sniper fire when we were -- when -- on our way to

19 the positions.

20 Q. Will you mark it also and put number 3 there?

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And tell -- can you tell us which unit adjoined you?

23 A. To our right was the Benko Penavic unit.

24 Q. Will you show us where?

25 A. They were here in this -- in this area here.

Page 15162

1 Q. And on the other side?

2 A. And on the other side, the units changed. I think every two or

3 three days they took shifts. I can give their names if you want me to.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we make a break

5 now? Because I have finished with the map. I would like to move on to

6 another subject. So perhaps this would be a convenient time.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will break here. We will resume at 12.30.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par. Please continue.

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Shall I continue, Mr. President?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, I have to tell you that the interpreters have asked us to

15 slow down when we speak, and perhaps speak a little more loudly. I was it

16 particularly warned. And to make more breaks between questions and

17 answers. So now you showed us on the map where the positions were and now

18 perhaps you could describe for us what life in this unit was. What were

19 the military tasks and so on? So perhaps it is in this area that we could

20 then go on with a few questions. For instance, were you always in this

21 unit? In which way it did you go on to carry out your tasks? If you can

22 perhaps elaborate on the way that you were carrying out the tasks in your

23 unit?

24 A. Well, we went for shifts on the line, support for the health

25 centre. The shifts were eight to 12 hours, depending on the situation.

Page 15163

1 On the security situation, whether attack was expected or whether there

2 was an attack ongoing on our positions.

3 Q. Were you mostly there around the health centre or in the command?

4 Where particularly? You personally.

5 A. No. Not in the health centre. Only when I had a shift there or

6 when there were attacks, I was on the line. But as far as I'm concerned,

7 I would just go normally home and I was then in my civilian clothes.

8 There was no need for me ...

9 Q. So when you finished your shift did you have any other duties

10 related to your unit or do you have any other supervision afterwards or

11 were you only under supervision while were you in the unit?

12 A. There was no supervision after we left the unit. It was only

13 while we were reserve in the command or in the building that I indicated

14 following that we didn't have any kind of supervision.

15 Q. So when you would go for the shift, to carry out your duties on

16 the line, on the front, what did it look like? Were there daily combat?

17 What was your duties specifically in keeping the position, keeping the

18 line, you as a soldier, during an ordinary day? What were you doing?

19 A. Well, we would stand guard. There were not attacks all the time.

20 For instance, for ten or 15 days nothing would happen. There would be no

21 attack. There would be a kind of lull in the fighting and so we would go

22 around the guard posts and that was that. We were on duty.

23 Q. Did it happen that on occasions there were larger scale clashes in

24 the time period while were you in the unit?

25 A. There were certain sabotage attempts by the Muslim army but we

Page 15164

1 successfully managed to defend. They tried to break into our premises and

2 to take the positions.

3 Q. On the 17th of September, 1993, did you -- were you in that unit

4 when there was a larger scale operation on that part of the front? And

5 when, during that operation, there was a tank there taking part? Do you

6 remember that day?

7 A. Yes. I was there on that day, during that operation, yes.

8 Q. Could you please indicate on the map which is before you, where

9 were you on that day?

10 A. On that day, during the attack, I was located in front of the

11 building, behind the wall here, you can see a wall here, behind this small

12 wall, in front of the health centre building.

13 Q. Could you perhaps briefly, in your own words, tell us what was

14 this operation and what happened on that day on the front?

15 A. It was an operation which was happening throughout the front line

16 in the city, not just on the Bulevar. It also happened in other parts of

17 the town. It was also ongoing in other parts of the town. The operation

18 started and we went out into the front in all this chaos and shooting, I

19 cannot give you specific details. I was just an ordinary soldier who was

20 also sheltering and I was just peeking out to see what was going on.

21 Q. You said you were behind this wall. Did you go forward from that

22 wall or did you go across the Bulevar? Did you go to the Bulevar? Or

23 were you there all the time?

24 A. No, no. We didn't go anywhere forward. We stayed behind that

25 wall. We didn't go forward. We didn't advance.

Page 15165

1 Q. Why didn't you go forward? What were the reasons? Did you intend

2 to go forward?

3 A. Our intention wasn't to advance. We thought that we would start

4 to take part of the territory which would have been normal in military

5 operations but we didn't go forward.

6 Q. When this operation -- whether this operation was successful or

7 not and how long did it take?

8 A. This operation, I cannot tell you exactly. It didn't last very

9 long because it wasn't successful and we were ordered to retreat, to

10 withdraw.

11 Q. Were there casualties, were there loss, were there people killed

12 in that operation?

13 A. In that operation, there were no casualties. There was one person

14 lightly wounded, nothing seriously.

15 Q. What about other units? Were there perhaps people killed in other

16 units? Do you know anything about that?

17 A. I heard that there were losses, people killed, on that day, from

18 some other units, but I don't know these people so I couldn't tell you who

19 they were.

20 Q. In this operation, did a tank join you in that operation? Do you

21 remember that and if you do remember, could you perhaps tell us something

22 about what this tank did?

23 A. Yes. In that operation, a tank took part, and what this tank did

24 was just to fire one or, no, two shells, and then it withdrew.

25 Q. Do you know, did you see or did you hear why would it retreat and

Page 15166

1 why did it go back?

2 A. I saw why it went back. Its sight was damaged by sniper fire. It

3 had been fired on by anti-armoured weapons and it had to withdraw.

4 Q. Did you personally see this damage or did you hear about this from

5 someone?

6 A. No, I didn't hear it from anyone. I saw it personally, because I

7 served in the JNA in the armoured unit so I know what sights were and I

8 know that the damage that it suffered, it was forced to withdraw, to

9 retreat.

10 Q. Where did you see that? Where was the tank exactly when you saw

11 that?

12 A. The tank was here, just in front of us, just by the wall here, and

13 after two shells that it fired, it went right back along this way.

14 Q. When it returned, where were you -- where were you seeing this

15 sight?

16 A. Where the driver was or where the turret was, the sight was

17 damaged.

18 Q. Now, in relation to your knowledge and to what you know about the

19 sights, how did you know that, that it couldn't go any further?

20 A. I was someone who was operating the sight in such an armoured

21 vehicle, so I do know that this tank could not be used without the sight.

22 Q. Could you please tell us whether, around the tank, did you see any

23 soldiers?

24 A. No, I didn't see any soldiers because that would have been certain

25 death, if anyone found themselves near the tank because everything was

Page 15167

1 open so it was -- it would be a mad thing to do, to go anywhere near the

2 tank.

3 Q. On that day, at the time of the operation, did you see anyone in

4 that part of the front line, who was a prisoner of war?

5 A. No, I did not see anyone. I did not see any POWs near the front

6 line at that time.

7 Q. Have you ever heard that on that day, on that part of the front

8 line, that prisoners of war were used as a human shield?

9 A. I told you earlier, near the front line, there was no prisoners of

10 war. There were no prisoners of war, in that part where we were.

11 Q. Did you perhaps hear that there was talk of some prisoners of war

12 being used with wooden rifles going next to the tank, being used as human

13 shield?

14 A. No, never, no, I never saw that and I was there directly. Nobody

15 was next to the tank. That would have been a mad thing to do, to be right

16 there in the line of fire.

17 Q. Did you perhaps tell anyone that this happened or that some

18 operation of that kind was being planned, involving prisoners of war?

19 A. No, no. I didn't tell anyone, no.

20 Q. Do you perhaps know a person by the name of Allan Knudsen?

21 A. No, I don't know that person.

22 Q. Do you know either in the ATG unit Vinko Skrobo were there

23 foreigners in that unit?

24 A. Yes, there were foreigners.

25 Q. Do you remember any of those foreigners?

Page 15168

1 A. I remember an American, Tom, and I remember a German man.

2 Q. Do you remember perhaps some Danish men, somebody from Denmark?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you know who these foreigners were? How did they get -- end up

5 in your unit?

6 A. I don't know who these people were. They probably came from the

7 command of the defence of the town. They came and then they were put at

8 the disposal of the units, not just in our unit but in units all along the

9 front line.

10 Q. Did you personally have any contact with these foreigners? Did

11 you speak to them in any way?

12 A. I had contact with them, the only way, which was using my hands,

13 like all the other soldiers who were there. Nothing special.

14 Q. What do you mean, with hands? Why did you have to use your hands

15 for these contacts? What were you trying to tell them on those occasions?

16 A. This was just using my hands to gesticulate, to show where a

17 position was, where they are not supposed to go because of sniper fire.

18 And that was that.

19 Q. Were you in charge of contacts with these foreigners? Was this

20 part of your tasks to tell them where to go and what to do?

21 A. No, no. That was not my task. Anybody from the soldiers could

22 have showed them, could have told them what to do and how to take care of

23 themselves.

24 Q. Was there an interpreter in the unit, somebody who would have been

25 able to interpret, to translate certain things that would have been

Page 15169

1 necessary for them to know or for them to ask something?

2 A. No. There was no interpreter.

3 Q. Did these foreigners perhaps understand Croatian?

4 A. Some of them perhaps understood a little or perhaps they could say

5 a few words. That was all. Nothing else, nothing more than that.

6 Q. Did you at the time speak a foreign language?

7 A. At that time, I didn't speak any foreign language. Perhaps a word

8 or two but I didn't speak a foreign language, no.

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Could I just ask a question in private

10 session, Mr. President, please?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Just before that day, 17th of September, 1993, did you speak to

23 any of those foreigners about the operation that was coming up?

24 A. No. I did not speak to them, no.

25 Q. So on the eve of that, did you have any information whether there

Page 15170

1 would be such an operation? And did you have any details before 17th of

2 September?

3 A. We didn't have any details. We knew that there would be an

4 operation coming up but we did not know what kind of operation that would

5 be. I was just an ordinary soldier.

6 Q. Here I have to put it to you that one foreigner, a Danish man,

7 Allan Knudsen said that he spoke to you prior to the operation, one day

8 before the operation, and that you were in informing him about this

9 operation. Could you perhaps comment on this?

10 A. I can comment on that. I never spoke to him about it, and what

11 his reasons were that he said this, I really have no idea.

12 Q. Very well. Did you know a foreign soldier by the nickname of

13 Svabo?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Do you perhaps remember a tragic event where a young boy was

16 killed in relation to this man Svabo?

17 A. I remember that, a young boy, I don't know how, found himself in

18 his flat, died, was killed by a hand grenade.

19 Q. Do you remember whether police came or was there any action taken

20 in relation to this?

21 A. There was an investigation and follow this investigation, Svabo

22 was dismissed from my unit.

23 Q. Do you know whose son that was, this young boy who was killed?

24 A. I heard that this was a son of a certain man called Halil Lopata,

25 I think. That's what he was called.

Page 15171

1 Q. Did you personally know this Halil Lopata?

2 A. No, I did not know him but I heard that he was an alcoholic, that

3 he was a man with problems.

4 Q. Did you ever see him in the unit?

5 A. No, I never saw him in the unit.

6 Q. Did you perhaps see him in the unit as a prisoner of war?

7 A. No, no. I told you I never saw him.

8 Q. In the unit, Vinko Skrobo unit, were there prisoners of war?

9 A. In our unit, no. All the prisoners who were prisoners of war were

10 brought from Heliodrom. In our unit we did not have any prisoners.

11 Q. I mean those who were brought from Heliodrom. Could you tell us

12 what did these prisoners do in the unit?

13 A. They worked as car mechanics. Some of them were car mechanics who

14 were working to fix our vehicles. They worked to fix ambulance vehicles.

15 They were working on armouring these vehicles in order to protect them

16 from fire.

17 Q. These prisoners of war, where were they? Were they in the command

18 building or somewhere else, in Kalemova Street or somewhere else?

19 A. These were in Kalemova Street, in the command building.

20 Q. And could you tell me, now that we see the photograph, where the

21 prisoners of war ever brought anywhere near there? Were they brought?

22 A. Perhaps one or two, not more than that. And they came to this

23 building, to this building of the reserve force.

24 Q. Could you tell me what did they do in this reserve -- building of

25 the reserve force?

Page 15172

1 A. In that building of the reserve force, they came to tidy up, to

2 clean a little, and that was that. And then they were returned.

3 Q. At that time, were they in any way in any danger from enemy fire?

4 Were they working in any conditions that were putting them at risk?

5 A. No. They were not working in any dangerous conditions because the

6 reserve force building was -- the reserve was in the cellar, in the

7 basement of this building.

8 Q. Here in Kalemova Street, near the command, were they there at risk

9 from fire or from anything else? Were they in any dangerous conditions

10 there?

11 A. No, they could not have been put in any risk or they could not

12 have been put in any dangerous position because the staff, the

13 headquarters, was deep inside the town.

14 Q. Did you perhaps see or hear that a prisoner of war in that unit

15 was injured or killed?

16 A. No, no. That didn't happen.

17 Q. Could you tell us whether at any time you saw that any of these

18 prisoners of war were physically mistreated or abused in any way?

19 A. No. I never saw that, and nobody was mistreated.

20 Q. What were the conditions like for them? Where did they eat, the

21 prisoners?

22 A. The prisoners ate at the same restaurant where we ate, that is the

23 restaurant Hladovina. They had the same meals as we did.

24 Q. Can you tell me whether they had any possibility to receive

25 visitors?

Page 15173

1 A. They had possibility to receive visitors. They even went home.

2 Q. And what they did, were they worked and when they were fixing

3 these cars, were they forced to do this or did they do this on a voluntary

4 basis? Were they paid?

5 A. They did it on a voluntary basis because we gave them good

6 conditions, good living conditions. Even some of us, we gave them money

7 for what they did. They had cigarettes. I don't know whether in other

8 units they would have had the same good conditions as they had in our

9 unit.

10 Q. Did some of the prisoners sleep there perhaps?

11 A. Yes. There were a couple of them who slept there, yes.

12 Q. Was there a reason? Do you know why they would stay there

13 overnight?

14 A. Simply they would spend the night there, they could have gone home

15 but they would spend the night. They perhaps worked late or something

16 like that.

17 Q. And did you know a prisoner of war by the name of Nenad

18 Harmandzic?

19 A. No, I did not know that name.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

21 MR. STRINGER: I see the name appears correctly in the transcript,

22 Mr. President, so I don't have anything to say. I thought I heard it

23 differently over my headphones.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may continue, Mr. Par.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

Page 15174

1 Q. Witness, your unit, did it ever take part in expelling Muslims

2 from Mostar?

3 A. No. My unit never did that.

4 Q. You personally, did you personally expel anyone from an

5 apartment? Did you force anyone out of an apartment? Or do you know that

6 any of your soldiers did that?

7 A. I never did that and I don't know that any of my soldiers ever did

8 that.

9 Q. And did you hear that there are stories around Mostar that Stela

10 and members of his units took part in the expulsions of people from flats

11 and in looting? Did you hear about that?

12 A. I heard about that from stories, from people, that there were a

13 lot of false representations of this, and I even heard it from a lady. I

14 was a member of this unit, and this lady came to tell me that she was

15 expelled from her apartment, that she was robbed. And then I asked her

16 who did that and she said that this was Stela and his men who did that. I

17 asked her, "What did they look like," so I could know who these people

18 were, and she said, "Stela is tall and dark," which is not at all true.

19 Q. Did you tell Stela about this event? Did he know about that?

20 A. Yes. I did tell him about it and we tried to somehow get to these

21 people, to find them, to trace them, but we never managed to do it.

22 Q. According to your recollection, in that part of the front line, in

23 front of the health centre, were there Muslims who were crossing from one

24 part of the town to another? Did you ever see any such occurrences?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 15175

1 Q. What kind of cases were there? Was this en masse or was this

2 individual cases?

3 A. Well, they were not crossings en masse, these were just people who

4 were crossing because they had families over there so they wanted to be

5 with their families, nothing else.

6 Q. And what did it look like in real life? How did they cross over

7 and get away?

8 A. Well, we would call out to the other side because it was a very

9 small distance, only across the street, so we would call out to them and

10 ask them to stop firing, to stop any action so that people could get

11 through.

12 Q. Did it also apply to the other side?

13 A. Yes, yes. It did. Croat families or people on their own would

14 cross over in the same way.

15 Q. And was it the same principle?

16 A. Yes, it was the same principle, some kind of a local ceasefire.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go -- may I just

18 consult my client for a second?

19 [Defence counsel and client consult]

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, I have concluded with this, my examination. Thank you

22 very much.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

24 questions.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination? Any cross-examination, I'm

Page 15176

1 sorry?

2 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Stringer:

5 Q. Witness?

6 MR. STRINGER: If I could ask the Registrar if we could either

7 push the ELMO back just a little bit so that I can see the witness and he

8 can see me? That's better. Thank you.

9 Q. Witness, just a couple of questions first of all, about the HOS

10 unit that you were a member of during 1992. I think you testified that

11 you joined the HOS unit that was commanded by Mr. Martinovic in

12 approximately April of 1992; is that correct?

13 A. 1992, that is when I said the conflict started, and I joined

14 perhaps a little later.

15 Q. The liberation of Mostar happened in June of 1992; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And both HVO and HOS units were involved in this action which

18 liberated Mostar from the Serbs; correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. And after the liberation of Mostar, then tension arose between the

21 HOS and the HVO about which unit would be perhaps play a greater role in

22 the area and in controlling Mostar; is that correct?

23 A. I know nothing about that. I was just a foot soldier.

24 Q. Did you know Blaz Kraljevic?

25 A. Not personally. I saw that man.

Page 15177

1 Q. He was from Ljubuski?

2 A. I don't know where he came from.

3 Q. You don't know where he was from?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. He was killed with other members of his party, assassinated

6 outside of Mostar in August of 1992, do you recall that?

7 A. Yes. I remember that. I heard about it.

8 Q. During this period of time, is it true, sir, that a significant

9 number of Serb residents of Mostar were evicted and driven out of the

10 region?

11 A. I know nothing about that.

12 Q. So as far as you know, sir, the same Serbs continued to live in

13 your area of town throughout April and throughout the summer of 1992? No

14 changes at all?

15 A. No. There were no changes at all. They lived there normally.

16 They even fought side by side with us in the units.

17 Q. Serbs then, just so we are clear, then, sir, say in 1994, the same

18 number of Serbs were living in Mostar as had been living there in 1991?

19 A. Will you repeat the question?

20 Q. Did the Serbs living in Mostar -- I'll rephrase it: Did the Serbs

21 living in Mostar in 1991 and 1992 experience any difficulties as a result

22 of what you called the Serb aggression?

23 A. No. Ordinary people, civilians, no, they had no difficulties at

24 all.

25 Q. Now, you joined the HVO and testified that you were first a member

Page 15178

1 of what you called a mixed military battalion. I think you were involved

2 in an anti-artillery; is that correct?

3 A. No. I said it was a mixed artillery battalion and that I was

4 trained for anti-armoured operations.

5 Q. You were based at the Heliodrom?

6 A. Yes. We were based at the Heliodrom.

7 Q. Was your unit a part of a brigade or a battalion of the HVO?

8 A. At that time, we were a mixed artillery battalion. I wouldn't

9 know under which battalion we were.

10 Q. You were a member of this unit on the 9th of May, 1993?

11 A. Yes. I was a member of that unit.

12 Q. Who was the commander of that unit?

13 A. That man, that man's name was Slaven Knezovic, of that part of my

14 unit.

15 Q. On the 9th of May, I think you testified, you heard the sound of

16 gunfire, the sound of armed conflict, and you then set out and joined up

17 with members of what later became the ATG Vinko Skrobo, correct?

18 A. No. That is not correct. I did not say that I joined the unit,

19 but people from that neighbourhood, people who had been members of other,

20 different units, we of our own volition went to the Rondo.

21 Q. At the time you went to the Rondo, Witness, you were aware that

22 there was a full-blown conflict taking place between units of the HVO and

23 units of the ABiH?

24 A. Not at that particular time. I wasn't aware that it was a major

25 conflicts. Belief me, I did not think about it being a big, major

Page 15179

1 conflict. The only thing that mattered me was to repulse that attack.

2 Q. Instead of reporting to your unit, you instead linked up with

3 Mr. Martinovic or some of his associates at the Rondo, is that what

4 happened?

5 A. No. That is not what happened. I went with a couple of friends,

6 with people I knew from the neighbourhood, and I couldn't report to my

7 unit because all the roads to my unit had been blocked. It was too

8 dangerous to take any one of those paths, because I would have been

9 killed.

10 Q. Who were some of the people that you joined up with then on that

11 day, the 9th of May, at the Rondo? Do you recall their names?

12 A. They were my neighbours. Those who were there, who lived there in

13 the neighbourhood.

14 Q. Well, were they in uniform? Were they armed?

15 A. Yes. They had uniforms and they were armed, like I was, because

16 we were already members of the -- of HVO units.

17 Q. Now, any of those people that you joined with that day, did any of

18 those other people subsequently become members of Mr. Martinovic's unit?

19 A. Yes, but later on, not at the very beginning. In the beginning,

20 they were not members of any unit.

21 Q. Now, Witness, in this trial, there has been evidence indicating

22 that some number of Muslims were transferred from West Mostar to the Velez

23 Stadium or directly to the Heliodrom where they were held for some ten

24 days. Are you familiar with that?

25 A. Yes. I am.

Page 15180

1 Q. There has been some testimony indicating that this was sort of a

2 protective isolation or that these Muslims were put at the Heliodrom for

3 their own safety because of the conflict. My question is whether you were

4 involved in transferring Muslims from West Mostar either to Velez Stadium

5 or to the Heliodrom at that time.

6 A. No. I had no part in that.

7 Q. Not on the 9th of May or the 10th of May or the 11th of May?

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Because I asked that, Witness, because in fact you've been named

10 by at least one witness in this trial as someone who was participating in

11 those activities on the 9th of May, together with Mr. Martinovic. So I

12 put it to you, sir, that in fact on the 9th of May, you, Mr. Martinovic,

13 and others, were in fact moving Muslim civilians out of West Mostar toward

14 the Heliodrom. Isn't that a fact?

15 A. No. That is not true. Somebody invented this.

16 Q. The Muslim people who were held then at the Heliodrom were

17 subsequently released on more or less the 18th of May. Does that sound

18 correct to you?

19 A. I know nothing about that. I really don't. I was on the front

20 line. I don't know that.

21 MR. STRINGER: I'd like the witness be shown Exhibit P456.1,

22 please.

23 Q. Witness, you're going to be shown an exhibit in this case, which

24 is a report of the 1st Military Police Battalion in Mostar, dated 14 June,

25 1993. I should have informed, Mr. President, I informed counsel earlier,

Page 15181

1 all of the documents that had been assembled for the previous witness, I'm

2 going to use that same set of documents for this witness. Mr. President,

3 I can offer to give the witness my version of the original-language

4 document, if it would make things go faster.

5 Q. Witness, take a moment to read that document over. And perhaps if

6 we could use this time, I'd like also to give the witness the map which is

7 Exhibit P11.18.

8 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read that document, Witness?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you seen the part where there is a reference to a report in

11 which uniformed men had been rounding up Muslim civilians in the Dum

12 block? A patrol was dispatched and Stela was found with approximately 40

13 well armed soldiers, expelling Muslims from their homes. This report

14 again is for the 13th and 14th of June, 1993. Witness, the reason I draw

15 your attention to this document is because the Trial Chamber in this case

16 has heard testimony that you, in fact, were involved in expulsion of

17 Muslims from this particular section of Mostar on the 13th of June. And

18 so again, my question is, sir, whether, in fact, as indicated in this

19 document, you, Mr. Martinovic and others were present in this section of

20 Mostar expelling Muslims from their homes on the 13th and 14th of June,

21 1993.

22 A. I've already said that we did not take part in any expulsions. We

23 were on the front line.

24 MR. STRINGER: If I could ask the witness to be shown Exhibit

25 P620.1.

Page 15182

1 Q. Take a moment to read that document, Witness. Witness, do you

2 know anything about an expulsion of Muslims from the Centar II

3 neighbourhood of Mostar on the 29th of September, 1993?

4 A. I've heard about it.

5 Q. This is a military police report, just like the previous one. My

6 question is whether the military police would in fact have been in a

7 position to know which units and individuals were involved in these sorts

8 of activities perhaps better than you.

9 A. I don't know. I cannot say, because I am just a foot soldier,

10 whether they had this information, whether they did, I don't know.

11 Q. You say you heard about this incident, I take it; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, I've heard about it.

14 Q. Did you hear that Mr. Martinovic was involved in this activity?

15 A. No. I didn't, because Mr. Martinovic could not be involved in

16 this activity, since we were not responsible for the town. We were

17 responsible for the section of the front line called the health centre,

18 and that was all.

19 Q. Now, Witness, you it testified that after you finished your shift,

20 then, you -- I believe you testified you would simply return to the place

21 where you live; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Isn't it possible, sir, isn't it quite likely, in fact, that you

24 would have not known about the whereabouts and activities of

25 Mr. Martinovic and other members of the unit when you were off duty?

Page 15183

1 A. Could you repeat?

2 Q. It's likely, isn't it, that you would not know about the

3 activities and whereabouts of Mr. Martinovic, certainly at those times

4 when you were off duty?

5 A. Well, when I was off duty, I was usually at home, or at times I

6 spent part of the day at the headquarters and Mr. Martinovic spent most of

7 his time at the headquarters.

8 Q. At the end of this document, sir, there is a reference to Zlatan

9 Jelic, also known as Mijo Jelic. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Was he in charge of the defence sector for Mostar town?

12 A. Yes. He was the commander of the defence of the town of Mostar.

13 Q. And then underneath that name appears the name of Ivan Andabak.

14 Do you know who is Ivan Andabak?

15 A. Yes, I know who Ivan Andabak is.

16 Q. Is he associated with the Convicts Battalion?

17 A. That I do not know.

18 Q. Witness, you testified about occasions when there would be kind of

19 an informal or a local ceasefire at which times, persons would cross the

20 confrontation line. Do you recall that?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Do you -- lets me ask you: These local cease-fires, were there

23 times when these were arranged by soldiers on opposite sides of the

24 confrontation line?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15184

1 Q. Now, I haven't asked you yet about Ernest Takac but do you recall

2 that he was a member of the ATG Vinko Skrobo?

3 A. Yes. I remember him. He was a member.

4 Q. Did he go by a nickname of Brada?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Witness, do you recall an occasion in August of 1993, when

7 Mr. Takac made an arrangement with someone on the other side whereby a

8 Muslim named Mujanovic was to be exchanged for a Croat who was being held

9 on the east side of Mostar?

10 A. No. I do not remember an exchange. There were voluntary

11 crossings.

12 Q. I'm specifically referring to an exchange of a person named

13 Bojana Mujanovic, an exchange for a Croat named Stjepan Milicevic. Do

14 you know anything about that?

15 A. I don't. No, I don't know anything about that. Those names tell

16 me nothing.

17 MR. STRINGER: Could I ask the witness --

18 Q. First before we move on, perhaps, witness, just to refresh us all,

19 could you take the pointer and point to the neighbourhood of Dum that was

20 referred to in that first document that I showed you?

21 A. It should be here.

22 Q. Could I ask you to take one of the markers and just to put a --

23 perhaps a number 1 in the area of the quarter of town called Dum?

24 A. [marks]

25 Q. Then could you do the same thing in the area of Centar II

Page 15185

1 neighbourhood that was referred to in the other document?

2 A. [marks]

3 Q. Thank you. Okay. We can withdraw that exhibit and we are going

4 to return to the photograph, 14.5, and I think I'm going to need a fresh

5 one because I'm going to ask the witness to make one marking on it.

6 Okay.

7 Q. Witness, now we are going to talk about the date in which the tank

8 was involved in that operation. Looking at that photograph, can you just

9 take the pointer and show us what used to be called Liska Street?

10 A. This was Liska Street.

11 Q. And the tank moved down Liska Street from the Rondo in the

12 direction of the Bulevar, correct?

13 A. Yes, correct.

14 Q. Can you give us an indication of the furthest point eastward

15 toward the Bulevar which the tank approached? How far down Liska Street

16 did the tank advance?

17 A. The tank came up to this point here.

18 Q. Can you put an X on that point, please?

19 A. [marks]

20 Q. The morning before this operation began, were you briefed about

21 the operation at the Vinko Skrobo headquarters?

22 A. Yes. We were told that there would be an operation.

23 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, could we briefly go into private

24 session?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

Page 15186

1 [Private session]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]


21 Q. You testified about mercenaries or foreigners who were members of

22 your unit. Did any of them participate in the action on the day, the day

23 of the tank, the day that we have been talking about where the tank

24 arrived?

25 A. First of all, these were not mercenaries. These were HVO

Page 15187

1 soldiers, just like we were. And some of them did take part in the

2 operation.

3 Q. Now, I believe you've just it testified a minute ago that before

4 you were down at the front line, at that position behind the wall in front

5 of the health centre, before that, did you -- were you at the headquarters

6 of the Vinko Skrobo up toward Kalemova Street?

7 A. Yes. We were up there and then we came to the front line and we

8 then waited for further instructions there.

9 Q. Do you know someone named Dinko Knezovic?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Was he involved in transporting prisoners from the Heliodrom to

12 the Vinko Skrobo headquarters? Was that one of his tasks?

13 A. Well, it wasn't one of his tasks but he went to fetch them on two

14 or three occasions.

15 Q. Do you recall if he went to fetch any prisoners on this day, the

16 day of this tank operation?

17 A. No. He did not go. And there were no prisoners anywhere nearby,

18 near the command, near the headquarters or near the front line.

19 Q. You spoke in your testimony about other prisoners who stayed

20 around the headquarters, fixing cars and the people who volunteered. Were

21 they at the headquarters on this day? Do you recall that?

22 A. I don't know. I did not see them, and I was at the front line so

23 I couldn't say that I saw them.

24 Q. Did you know, sir, that during the same period of time, prisoners

25 were being taken to work in confrontation lines throughout the city,

Page 15188

1 including Santiceva Street, just to the north of you?

2 A. Could you please repeat the question?

3 Q. Did you know that prisoners were being taken to work for other

4 units in other parts of town, such as Santiceva Street, during this period

5 of the summer and fall of 1993?

6 A. Yes. I heard about it.

7 Q. The conditions and the circumstances, the tasks, of the prisoners

8 who came to your headquarters were much more pleasant than, say, working

9 on the confrontation line in Santiceva Street. Isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It was generally the same group of prisoners, the same

12 individuals, who came and worked around the headquarters of the Vinko

13 Skrobo, isn't that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And were some of these people perhaps former friends or still

16 friends with Mr. Martinovic, perhaps had some sort of a friendship or a

17 relation before the war?

18 A. I don't know that. I can't tell you about that. I really don't

19 know.

20 MR. STRINGER: Could we briefly go into private session,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15189

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]


8 Q. Just one last couple of questions, Mr. President, and I will

9 finish before today's recess. I've got a new exhibit, it's a photograph.

10 We don't have it marked but perhaps we could just have it marked and show

11 it to the witness. While that is --

12 JUDGE LIU: You have to show this photograph to the Defence

13 counsel first.


15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I wasn't informed, but I can

16 see this exhibit, and I have no objections.


18 Q. Witness, you testified -- I had the impression that you know a

19 little something about tanks so I just wanted to show it this to you.

20 Does this -- can you tell us the model of the tank that's shown on this

21 photograph?

22 A. This is JNA tank, T-55.

23 MR. STRINGER: Could you put it on the ELMO, please, so that we

24 can all see it?

25 Q. Now, just so we are clear, this is not a photograph of the tank on

Page 15190

1 the day in question. This is just a photograph that was obtained from a

2 different source. My question is whether, in fact, this is the model of

3 the tank that you've testified about so far today, in connection with the

4 events of 17 September.

5 A. Yes. This is the tank of this model, yes.

6 Q. When the tank approached the Bulevar, would it be correct to say

7 that there were not people on top of the turret as is shown in this

8 photograph?

9 A. Yeah, that's correct, because when the tank is going into combat

10 operation, all the crew is inside.

11 Q. Now, if you don't know the answers, then tell us you don't know,

12 but if you do know, and if you feel confident about saying so, can you

13 indicate the area or areas where a person firing the tank shells would be

14 positioned in the tank? What would be their vantage point and how would

15 they see their target?

16 A. Could you please repeat the question? I didn't quite understand

17 your question.

18 Q. I'll try to clarify it. You testified that you heard that the

19 sighting device had been shot so that they weren't able to fire any more

20 shells. What would be the location of the firing or the sighting device

21 on this tank, if you know?

22 A. The sighting device of the tank is about here, and then the --

23 that's of the driver. And then above would be the sighting device of the

24 tank. And here, there would be part of the tank, of the sighting

25 equipment, and the periscope of the tank operator.

Page 15191

1 Q. So they would be inside the tank with the hatch closed, sighting

2 their targets by using the periscope?

3 A. In combat operations, that's how this is done, yes.

4 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me, sir, if I were to suggest to you

5 that the height of the turret above the ground is 1.75 metres?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. At the time that the tank rolled down Liska Street into the

8 position that you've marked on the photograph, from that point on the X,

9 were there sandbags in front of the tank or behind the tank?

10 A. At that time, there were no sandbags because the tank went through

11 the sandbags.

12 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. Mr. President, I have no further

13 questions.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, for the sake of the record, would

15 you please inform us about the number of that photo of the tank?

16 MR. STRINGER: Exhibit 958, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

18 Any re-examination, Mr. Par?

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much, Witness, for coming here to

21 give your evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, she will show

22 you out of the room. We wish you pleasant journey back home.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, any documents to tender at this stag?

Page 15192

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I am tendering as

2 exhibit, first the name, the surname. That would be D2/48, I think. And

3 then I'm not sure that's the right number. Yes, that will be/47. That

4 will be name and surname. Then I'm tendering the map, D2/48, and I'm

5 tendering the photograph, D2/49. Thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Stringer?

7 MR. STRINGER: No objections, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Those three documents are admitted into

9 evidence. Any documents on your side to tender, Mr. Stringer?

10 MR. STRINGER: We would tender the Exhibit 14.5 that was marked by

11 the witness and then also the photograph of the tank that was Exhibit 958,

12 and I think the other documents referred to are already in evidence.

13 JUDGE LIU: How about P11.18?

14 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, 11.18 also. I apologise.

15 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Par?

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objections.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Those documents are admitted

18 into evidence.

19 And Mr. Par, do we have another witness for this week?

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We have another

21 three witnesses who are here in The Hague. Tomorrow is Friday and I

22 believe that tomorrow we could perhaps finish two of these witnesses,

23 because their testimonies are shorter and then we would have one over for

24 Monday. So that's what we estimate.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for the information. We will

Page 15193

1 break now until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

4 the 6th day of September, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.