Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15194

1 Friday, 6 September 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Mladen Naletilic and Vinko Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Could we have the next witness, please?

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can.

12 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

18 Yes, Mr. Par.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Examined by Mr. Par:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. Before I start my examination today, I would like to inform you

24 that you have been granted protective measures and that is face distortion

25 and a pseudonym. I am now going to give you a paper with your name on

Page 15195

1 it. If this is indeed your name, just say yes.

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we please go to

4 private session for the first few questions?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15196













13 Page 15196 redacted private session













Page 15197

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Witness, let us start with the time of the Serbian aggression

9 against Mostar. Let us remind ourselves of that period. You said that

10 you lived in the eastern part of Mostar. Can you please briefly tell us

11 something about that time? How did you live in the eastern part of

12 Mostar? What happened to you? Did you have any military engagement and

13 so on?

14 A. With my wife, I lived in that part of the city, and my apartment

15 was in the vicinity of the barracks called Northern Camp, where the

16 Serbian Army forces were, they had arrived already in 1991, in the

17 territory of Mostar. On their arrival, the safety and security situation

18 changed in Mostar from what it used to be before that. There was shooting

19 every night from the surrounding hills, where the Serbian soldiers were,

20 and very often we would hear shots from the barracks, which served to

21 intimidate the population. So it was not easy to live in that part of the

22 city.

23 Q. So it was an atmosphere of insecurity. However, there were Serbs,

24 Muslims and Croats living there. Did they show the same attitude towards

25 the Serbian aggression or were there any differences between them? Can

Page 15198

1 you tell us something about that?

2 A. All the Serbs, more or less, were in favour of the arrival of the

3 Serbian reservists and Croats and Muslims had a different attitude towards

4 that and they did not accept that because it was no longer the Yugoslav

5 Army but the Serbian Army. 99 per cent of the members of this army were

6 Serbs.

7 Q. And what did Muslims and Croats do in the eastern part of Mostar?

8 Did they start leaving the city or did they organise military units?

9 A. In this part of the city, Croats and Muslims started leaving,

10 either for other parts of the town. They crossed the river and went to

11 stay with relatives or family. The situation in this part of the city was

12 no longer safe. Everybody's life was at risk so everybody tried to find a

13 safer place to live.

14 Q. You are saying that the situation was the way it was and that's

15 why they moved to the western part of the town. What was -- what was it

16 that made the western part of the city safer?

17 A. In that part of the city, there were no members of the Serbian

18 Army. They were in the eastern part, in the barracks, and in the western

19 part, there was no Serbian Army. Some legal police forces started being

20 organised. They were armed, there were patrols, so it was much safer for

21 Croats and Muslims to be in that part of the city.

22 Q. So this is the period of insecurity. Did you personally, with

23 your family, move to the western part of the city? And where did you

24 cross? Where did you go to?

25 A. I moved to this other apartment that I had just shown you. This

Page 15199

1 is where my mother-in-law lived, and together with my wife, I went there

2 and lived with my mother-in-law.

3 Q. So when you arrived in the western part, did you have any military

4 engagement? Were you mobilised? Were you a member of any military unit?

5 A. When the conflict with the Serbian Army started, that is the

6 conflict between the Serbian Army and the armed people or the police, then

7 I did not have any military engagement. But after a certain period of

8 time, I was mobilised. I received my call-up papers. So I enlisted with

9 the HVO, which was at the time the only military formation in that part of

10 the town. However, it was not a military engagement. That happened

11 actually after the conflict, when the Serbian forces were forced to leave

12 the eastern part. I was then engaged because some parts of the town were

13 in rubble and I, as an architect, could assess the damage, so I was given

14 a work obligation and that was to assess different facilities, public

15 facilities, monuments, and to assess the extent of damage.

16 Q. If I have understood you well, you are now in the western part of

17 Mostar, the war went on for a while, and then stopped, and you were

18 engaged by enlisting and by being given a work obligation to assess the

19 damage in Mostar. Can you tell me how you assessed the damage inflicted

20 by the Serbian aggression and did you compile some documents to document

21 that?

22 A. Personally, I went to every facility, to every building, together

23 with photographers. We made photographic documentation. And I, as a

24 result of that, am the author of a book called, "Mostar, Urbicide

25 1992. These groups involved Muslims and Serbs, the ones who had remained

Page 15200

1 in Mostar.

2 Q. So that book contains data on the damage inflicted during the

3 aggression by the Serbs. Can you tell us in brief what kind of damage did

4 you encounter in Mostar after the Serbian aggression? Did the majority of

5 objects suffer damage and what kind of damage?

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

7 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I apologise to the witness for the

8 interruption and to counsel but this is testimony that requires or is

9 based upon a specialised knowledge of the witness, based upon a rather

10 unique experience, not referred to in the least in the witness summary

11 that we've been provided. I think it's potentially an important,

12 certainly an interesting subject, but it's not one which I'm in the least

13 prepared to cross-examine about. There has been testimony in this trial

14 on that subject, and we are just -- we simply have had no notice that this

15 was going to be an area for the direct examination of this witness.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, we would like to know the relevance of

17 this issue, that is the damage inflicted during the aggression by the

18 Serbs with this case.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that was part of the

20 indictment, and a lot of other things my client is being charged with, one

21 of them the destruction of monuments and this was also the subject of the

22 witnesses for the Prosecution. I don't intend to dwell upon that but I

23 cannot not ask the witness, who was there at the time, about the results

24 of his work. My intention was to ask the witness about the things that he

25 did as part of his military engagement. I just wanted him to tell us

Page 15201












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15202

1 whether the majority of objects were destroyed or not. I don't wish to

2 waste a lot of time but to have a witness like this and not to ask him a

3 question like that, I don't consider possible.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

5 MR. STRINGER: Well, Mr. President, I don't wish to suggest that

6 anyone other than Mr. Par should determine the scope of his direct, but if

7 we could go into private session, please?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15203

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. The Serbian aggression is now over. After the Serbian aggression,

19 did you go back to your apartment or did you stay with your mother-in-law

20 in the western part of Mostar?

21 A. I and my wife stayed with my mother-in-law because the conditions

22 of life in the other part of the city were rather bad. There was no

23 electricity. There was no water. There was a lot of destruction. So the

24 conditions for return were not in place. Our apartment was also damaged.

25 Q. Did you go there from time to time? When did you go there?

Page 15204

1 A. Usually on weekends my wife and myself would go there, stay there,

2 clean a little.

3 Q. At the time when you went to that apartment, did you notice any

4 changes in East Mostar?

5 A. In that part of Mostar, some new people appeared, some that I had

6 never seen before. Those were Muslims from the areas under the control of

7 the Serbian Army who had been expelled from Trebinje, Bileca and other

8 cities from Eastern Herzegovina. These people had been expelled, they

9 arrived in East Mostar and then they entered the empty apartments. That's

10 why me and my wife would go there so often, to make sure that nobody

11 forcefully breaks into it.

12 Q. And now let me take you to the 9th of May, 1993, the conflict

13 between Muslims and Croats started in Mostar. Where were you exactly on

14 that day?

15 A. It was a Sunday, and I've already said that my wife and me were in

16 our apartment quite often on weekends. We were there around 5.00 or 6.00

17 in the morning, the shooting started. I didn't know what it was all

18 about, and then we heard via the media what was going on, at least some

19 things I learned. I didn't leave my apartment. I was in my apartment all

20 the time. I basically didn't know what the whole thing was all about.

21 Q. So the war started on the 9th of May. You were in your apartment

22 in East Mostar. Did anybody knock on your door, the army? Were you

23 disturbed? Did you leave the apartment? What happened?

24 A. Soldiers came to my apartment. They didn't ring the bell. They

25 tried to break in by pushing the door by foot. There was -- my name was

Page 15205

1 on the door. They went around the building. They threatened to kill

2 anybody, me including, if they found any weapons or ammunition. Then my

3 neighbours also came and they shouted, saying that I'm an Ustasha, that

4 all Ustashas should be killed, slaughtered. They told me not to leave the

5 apartment and that I was in house prison.

6 Q. After the 9th of May, how long did you stay in that apartment?

7 A. I think three weeks, some 20 days, I stayed in the apartment. I

8 lost 20 kilos during that period of time. I didn't sleep. I developed

9 psoriasis, which was stress related.

10 Q. How did your wife take it?

11 A. My wife suffered some psychological problems, which in my case

12 reflected on my skin, and in her case, she was depressed.

13 Q. So after the 20 days that you spent there under certain pressure,

14 you finally decided to leave the apartment. Did you leave it and where

15 did you go?

16 A. Via the media that we could listen to and those were small

17 portable radios, I learned that 20 days later the conflict had started,

18 that there was UNPROFOR on some of the lines and that we were given an

19 opportunity to be taken by buses to the other part of the town. So I

20 decided to move to West Mostar together with my wife, who was by then in

21 a very bad health condition. I knew more or less the location from which

22 the buses departed. That was close to the Razvitak department store so

23 that's how we decided to leave. We picked up some clothes and things and

24 we went to the place of departure.

25 Q. So this bus journey was organised in a certain way. My question

Page 15206

1 is: Was it organised in the presence of UNPROFOR?

2 A. UNPROFOR just escorted and provided security for these buses, but

3 it was the BH Army soldiers who entered the buses and they were the ones

4 who made decisions as to who could cross and who couldn't. At one point,

5 they wanted to take me off the bus. However, I knew some people on the

6 other side. At that time they helped me to remain on the bus and to cross

7 the river together with my wife.

8 Q. So when we are talking about time, when would that have been?

9 A. End of May, 1993.

10 Q. So you and your wife crossed over to the other side. Could you

11 please tell us what was the ethnic background of your wife?

12 A. She was a Muslim.

13 Q. And your mother-in-law, living in the western part of Mostar?

14 A. Muslim.

15 Q. When you went to live with your mother-in-law in that other

16 apartment in western part of Mostar, in May, 1993, did you engage yourself

17 militarily in the western parts of Mostar?

18 A. To start with, no. Again, I registered myself for the work

19 obligation for about a month, and then I got a call-up papers,

20 mobilisation papers and I responded and I was engaged militarily in a

21 military unit from those parts of town that I knew. And it was known as

22 the 4th Battalion. That's how it was organised.

23 Q. The 4th Battalion, in the 4th Battalion, what were your tasks?

24 A. I was a soldier who was standing guard in one part of the town,

25 towards the Hum hill. We were securing that part of town.

Page 15207

1 Q. Could you please tell us, at that time, in that building where you

2 lived, where your mother-in-law lived, were there any cases that in that

3 neighbourhood, that some Muslims were forced out? Did you hear about it

4 or did your mother-in-law tell you about it? Could you please elaborate

5 on the atmosphere, please?

6 A. She told me of course, when we arrived, that many neighbours who

7 were there in that part of town, that they had been expelled, but that she

8 had also been approached by some men who came to her apartment, looked

9 into her apartment, saw that there was nobody in the apartment, and

10 realised there was nobody there and then they left. They didn't harm her

11 or her neighbour, who was also Muslim.

12 Q. But when you were in that apartment, with your mother-in-law, were

13 there also soldiers who came to the door, checking who was in the

14 apartment and so on?

15 A. On several occasions, soldiers came whom I didn't know personally,

16 and they came to check something but when they saw that I was in uniform,

17 that I had a rifle, then they would normally return.

18 Q. How did they introduce themselves if they did at all, when they

19 came?

20 A. I didn't ask many questions. They would normally go back as soon

21 as they saw me that I was a Croat, that I was engaged, then they would go

22 back, but I didn't know them.

23 Q. At that time, did you know Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

24 A. I knew Vinko from before the war.

25 Q. What was the nature of your relationship? How did you meet?

Page 15208

1 Where did you know him from?

2 A. Vinko's brother Jadranko and myself worked together in a company.

3 So we had business relations, and then through Vinko's brother Jadranko I

4 met

5 Vinko and his parents, mother and father.

6 Q. At that time, when you were in the western part of town, did you

7 hear stories about Stela and his soldiers are expelling people from

8 apartments? Did you hear such stories?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Do you know whether there were cases that you've heard about cases

11 that people were falsely representing themselves as members of Vinko's

12 unit?

13 A. Yes, I heard about it and I personally had an experience in 1996.

14 Q. Could you please tell us about your personal experience in

15 relation to these stories?

16 A. Among other things, these people who came to the door, these

17 unknown men who came to the door, in 1996, I decided to return from

18 Germany because in 1994, after Mr. Koschnik came, when Mostar was

19 normalised again, and when I felt that I could leave my mother-in-law,

20 because my wife was already in Germany, I then went to Germany, and I was

21 there for two years. When my wife and I decided to go back, which was

22 sometime in 1996, it was in October, 1996, so we made all the preparations

23 to go back, but I received a call from my neighbour that some men had

24 entered this apartment where we had been, which I had located on the map,

25 where we were supposed to go back to, and because my mother-in-law wasn't

Page 15209












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15210

1 there in that apartment, she had gone to see her sister -- to her sister's

2 in Croatia, they found out that this was an empty apartment and three

3 armed soldiers, this -- I heard from my next door neighbour who is also a

4 Muslim, because she reacted when they started to break the door down. So

5 they forced her and they said, "We are Stela's men. You shouldn't

6 interfere." And so on. So they forced her to back down. And then she

7 called me in Germany and told me that they introduced themselves as being

8 Stela's men and that's when I called Jadranko because I had good

9 relationship with him, I knew Jadranko was Vinko's brother so I asked him

10 to check whether these soldiers were truly Stela's men and whether

11 something could be done in this respect. And then Jadranko told me he

12 would find out he promised he would inform himself at Vinko's who these

13 people were and if I could call him in a few days. A few days later I

14 called Jadranko and Jadranko told me that he had spoken to Vinko and that

15 he didn't know these soldiers at all. I found out that one of the

16 soldiers was called Delinac and that he came from the vicinities of

17 Konjic. And so on. So Jadranko said that in that unit, Vinko's unit,

18 there were no soldiers from Konjic, particularly not with this name or

19 surname. That's why I personally had to come from Germany. And then on

20 the basis of my contacts and people I knew in the police, and in politics,

21 they helped me evict these people from the apartment. Or, well,

22 specifically that man who was in the apartment.

23 Q. And today, you live in that apartment?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And where does your mother-in-law live?

Page 15211

1 A. My mother-in-law lives in this eastern part of town where I used

2 to live with my now ex-wife.

3 Q. So the war made you exchange places? You as a Croat went to live

4 in the western part and stayed in that apartment and she, as a Muslim,

5 went to the eastern part in your former apartment.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished my

7 examination-in-chief. I have no further questions.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Stringer?

9 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Stringer:

11 Q. Witness, just a few questions. You said that when you returned to

12 East Mostar, this is the period before the conflict between the Muslims

13 and the Croats in Mostar, there was a point when you returned to East

14 Mostar and you found that there were now a lot of Muslims who had arrived,

15 who had come from other parts of Eastern Herzegovina because those parts

16 had been taken by the Serbs. Do you recall that? You have to answer

17 verbally.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You said that they were living in empty apartments, those Muslims

20 who had come from other areas were living in empty apartments in Mostar.

21 My question, sir, is whether those were empty apartments because they were

22 apartments that had formerly belonged to Serbs who were now no longer

23 living in Mostar after the liberation of Mostar in June of 1992.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did a lot of Serbs leave Mostar during the course of the Serb

Page 15212

1 aggression and then, in the period after the liberation of Mostar, in June

2 of 1992?

3 A. And before the war, before the war started. By the very arrival

4 of Serb units, many Serb families started to leave Mostar. And in

5 relation to your other part of the question, in that eastern part of town,

6 most of the apartments were Serbian. So these were apartments of the

7 Serbs who had left, that withdrew with the Serb Army.

8 Q. You testified -- moving forward now to the period of time in which

9 you were talking about the experience of living in West Mostar, you said

10 that you heard from your mother in law that, I think many of her

11 neighbours, her Muslim neighbours, had been expelled from their flats in

12 West Mostar. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that she was able to keep that flat in

15 West Mostar throughout the conflict because her son-in-law was a member of

16 the HVO?

17 A. Obviously these people who came to the door did not know me.

18 Q. But you were uniformed, you were wearing an HVO patch on your

19 shoulder, I take it?

20 A. Yes, but that happened later.

21 Q. Okay. That's what I want to ask. Maybe I should do a better job

22 of setting the time frame. The time frame that I'm interested in is the

23 period of 1993, after the 9th of May. In fact, after the end of May,

24 which is when I believe you moved across into West Mostar.

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 15213

1 Q. Now, from the end of May of 1993, until the end of the conflict,

2 is that the period of time in which your mother-in-law spoke of many

3 Muslims being evicted from their flats in West Mostar?

4 A. No. Can I speak?

5 Q. Please.

6 A. Not that part but this other part. So when I came to this

7 apartment, she told me about what had happened when I wasn't there,

8 because when I was already there on that other side, then I of course knew

9 what was going on.

10 Q. Okay. I want to just try to clarify this a little bit. You

11 returned to West Mostar or you went over to West Mostar at the end of May,

12 1993, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And sometime shortly thereafter, you were again mobilised into the

15 HVO and became a member of the 4th Battalion?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. My question is this: Your mother would have been

18 expelled in 1993, your mother-in-law would have bee expelled in 1993 if

19 she hadn't -- if you had not been living with her and if you had not been

20 a member of the HVO. Is that correct?

21 MR. MEEK: Mr. President.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

23 MR. MEEK: I would object to that question. It calls for

24 speculation. Pure speculation.

25 JUDGE LIU: There question has been asked before. I think at this

Page 15214

1 moment, the Prosecutor is just making clear the instance of this

2 question.

3 Witness, you may answer that question.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not quite clear about what the

5 question was. Could you please repeat it?


7 Q. In 1993, your mother-in-law would have been expelled from West

8 Mostar, just like all the other Muslims --

9 A. No, no. She wasn't expelled.

10 Q. She would have been --

11 A. She remained in her apartment. She remained in her apartment.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, ask the reason why his

13 mother-in-law was not evicted from her apartment.

14 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.

15 Q. Why was your mother-in-law not evicted at a time when all the

16 other Muslims were being evicted?

17 A. I can only assume.

18 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I object to that question, the form of

19 that question assumes facts not in evidence. This witness has already

20 testified his mother-in-law told him that some of her neighbours got

21 evicted. The question if you look at it assumes that all Muslims were

22 evicted. I object to the form of the question. It assumes facts not in

23 evidence, calls for speculation.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, this witness is your witness. It's

25 not your witness. So you have no right to interrupt in the proceedings.

Page 15215

1 Witness, you may answer the question.


3 Q. Why was she allowed to remain when the other Muslims were not?

4 A. I don't know. I suppose because she was an elderly woman that

5 they left her there. She was on her own and they realised that there was

6 nobody else in the apartment so they then went back. They probably didn't

7 feel that she was posing a threat.

8 Q. May I suggest to you, sir, that she was allowed to remain because

9 she had you there as a member of the HVO to protect her?

10 A. I was not there. I was -- when the conflict started, she -- I was

11 in the eastern part of town, in my apartment. She was in the western part

12 in her apartment.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Stringer, I don't know if you want to pursue

14 this any further but perhaps to clarify the matter you should say to the

15 witness, after he and his wife arrived at his mother-in-law's apartment,

16 did his presence there play any role in his mother-in-law's as a Muslim

17 being permitted to remain there.


19 Q. Witness, did you hear the question or the suggestion of Judge

20 Clark? I think rather than muddy the water by attempting to repeat it --

21 go ahead and answer the question.

22 A. So in this period, when I was not in that apartment, I could not

23 have had any influence on whether she would remain or be expelled but when

24 I was in the apartment, I was able to. And normally I tried. Of course I

25 did my best for her to remain there with me and not to leave.

Page 15216

1 Q. Thank you. Now my last question again, just to be sure, the story

2 that you tell of when these persons came and identified themselves as

3 Stelici, that was three years later or so, in 1996, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. STRINGER: Nothing further, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination?

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Mr. President, just give

8 me a moment.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Par:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, just a couple of questions in relation

12 to the situation regarding the Muslims in western part of Mostar. In this

13 house, in this building where your mother-in-law lived, when you arrived

14 at the end of May, 1993, were there other Muslims there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was, for instance, a Muslim?

17 [redacted] who had informed me in Germany. She was

18 there throughout the war. [redacted]. She was there

19 with her husband and her two children.

20 Q. At that time, in Mostar, were there other Muslims? Did you see

21 them? Did you know that there were other Muslims?

22 A. There were, because all of us had either a friend or a husband,

23 wife, a spouse, everybody had a family relations, and people were

24 protecting each other.

25 Q. Now, when you compare this, what you have lived through, in

Page 15217












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15218

1 relation to these pressures, evictions and so on in the eastern part of

2 Mostar, and what you heard that happened in the western part of Mostar,

3 there in eastern against Croats, in western against Muslims, do you see

4 any kind of difference? What was going on? Was it similar, was it very

5 different?

6 A. What I saw, what I lived through, and the way I saw the war, on

7 the eastern part, I presume that my mother-in-law and these people felt in

8 a similar way on this other side.

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE CLARK: Could I ask you a few questions, Witness MR? You

14 described how after you came to the west side to live with your

15 mother-in-law, that on a number of occasions soldiers came to the door.

16 When they came to the door, did they identify themselves? Did they say

17 why they were there? Can you describe that in a little detail, what you

18 remember of it?

19 A. I did not know these soldiers. These were men whom I didn't

20 know. But you can assume that nobody will want to identify themselves as

21 they are ringing the bell at the door of someone's apartment wanting to

22 force their way in but once they entered the apartment I would let them

23 come in, and when I appear in uniform and a rifle, normally then they

24 would just leave.

25 JUDGE CLARK: What I wanted to know is when they knocked it at the

Page 15219

1 door, did they identify the unit that they belonged to or the orders that

2 they had or did they seem to you to be on a personal, illegal mission?

3 A. I presumed that this -- this is the second part of the -- second

4 version. They came for their own personal reasons.

5 JUDGE CLARK: During the war between the HVO and the Muslim army,

6 did you hear many stories about illegal activity and the expulsion of your

7 Muslim neighbours, Muslim people generally, in the west part?

8 A. Yes, I heard about it.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Were the stories always about Stelici or about other

10 people?

11 A. It was always about Stelici. They were people who -- they were

12 the usual suspects.

13 JUDGE CLARK: The period that you give us specific evidence on in

14 1996 referred to soldiers from a certain part of Herzegovina who came to

15 the apartment that your mother-in-law lived in. That intrigues me

16 somewhat, that people would be called Stelici so long after the war. Was

17 Mr. Martinovic still commander or involved with the military or in

18 paramilitary unit at that stage, in 1996?

19 A. Well, I can't know that, because from 1994 to 1996, I was in

20 Germany. I didn't have an insight into the situation in the town.

21 JUDGE CLARK: But you said that you spoke to his brother Jadranko,

22 and that he was able to say that Vinko Martinovic said that he didn't have

23 people of that name in his unit. So does that presuppose the existence or

24 the continued existence of a paramilitary unit?

25 A. I cannot know that, because I spoke to Vinko's brother on the

Page 15220

1 phone and I don't know whether that unit existed then. But I called

2 because these people introduced themselves as Stelici but whether the

3 units existed at all at that time, I don't know, because it was already in

4 1996.

5 JUDGE CLARK: You said that you then sought the assistance of

6 political friends you had and some people in the police to evict them.

7 Does that mean that you weren't able to go to court and get an eviction

8 order, that it had to be done by some degree of influence rather than by

9 rule of law?

10 A. Since there were no established courts at that time, and there was

11 the European Union administration, as the institution that was there for

12 any complaints, I tried to do this in a legal way of sorts. So it was

13 through the police, through some institutions of authority, so that I

14 wouldn't clash with this man. I wanted the police, the authorities, to

15 take care of this. The administration that was managing the town.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you for your assistance.

17 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions? Mr. Par?

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honours.

19 MR. STRINGER: No, thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Witness, thank you very much for coming to

21 give your evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, she will show

22 you out of the room. We all wish you a good future.

23 At this stage are there any documents to tender? Yes, Mr. Par?

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The map that the

25 witness marked, marked two locations, and this is D2/50.

Page 15221

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE LIU: I'll give the floor to Madam Registrar. She has to

3 correct the numbers.

4 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym sheets is D2/50 and the map is

5 D2/51, both under seal.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you for your assistance.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer?

9 MR. STRINGER: No objection, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, these two documents are admitted

11 into evidence.

12 My suggestion is that we break now and we will continue with

13 another witness in the next sitting.

14 I was reminded to ask the Defence counsel what is the protective

15 measures for the next witness? If there is any protective measures, we

16 have to make the arrangement during the break. Yes, Mr. Par?

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] For this witness, Mr. President, the

18 Defence has asked for protective measures of a closed session. I hope

19 that the Trial Chamber received this request yesterday. We spoke about

20 this a few days ago. So this is the witness for whom we are asking a

21 closed session. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer?

23 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the next witness will be handled by

24 Mr. Poriouvaev.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

Page 15222

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I have no objections.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Par, your request is

3 granted. So we will conduct the testimony of the next witness in the

4 closed session. But I have to remind you that you should try your best to

5 talk with your witness so that we could hear some witnesses in open

6 session in the future proceedings.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will immediately

8 express myself on this issue. I believe that this is the last witness who

9 asked for a closed session. From out of all the witnesses, we only had

10 two with closed sessions. The next few witnesses that we have left, and I

11 believe that we have fewer than ten minutes, two will ask for the usual

12 protective measures, maybe two or three, the pseudonym and the face

13 distortion, while the others will testify in open session.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much indeed. We will resume at 10.30.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.02 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.34 a.m.

17 JUDGE LIU: Since the closed session is granted, we will go to the

18 closed session for the next witness.

19 [Closed session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15223













13 Pages 15223-15263 redacted closed session













Page 15264

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 12.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

24 the 9th day of September, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.