Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15899

1 Monday, 7 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Mladen Naletilic and Vinko Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Well, before we start, I think we have the list of the witnesses

10 to discuss. This Trial Chamber has been seized of the Prosecution's

11 supplemental filing concerning rebuttal case filed confidentially on the

12 3rd of October, 2002, whereby the Prosecution is informing the Chamber

13 about the order of hearing of the rebuttal evidence. This Trial Chamber

14 has already made a decision on the Prosecution's filing concerning

15 rebuttal case issued on the 20th September 2002, in which the Chamber

16 ordered the Witness ACD, in the current filing, to be heard in the course

17 of the rebuttal.

18 In this decision, this Trial Chamber has not granted the

19 permission to hear the Witness B and E in the current filing, and we

20 believe that the current filing may be considered as a motion to hear the

21 new witnesses.

22 Considering that the rebuttal hearing is scheduled today, and

23 therefore, there's not sufficient time to await written response from the

24 Defence, so this Trial Chamber would like to hear the response from the

25 Defence counsel about those two new witnesses proposed by the Prosecution.

Page 15900

1 Yes, Mr. Seric.

2 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good morning; good

3 morning, Your Honours. What has been happening here lately doesn't make

4 any sense and has nothing to do with the equality of arms. What was

5 happening to us immediately before the beginning of these proceedings,

6 before the 10th of September of last year, is now repeating. What the

7 Prosecutor did by submitting to us at the last moment 17 binders that I

8 haven't had the time to look at until this very day. We are watching the

9 same film over and over again. The Prosecutor does not abide by your

10 decision on the limitations of the evidence during those proceedings.

11 He's introducing new evidence, new witnesses, without giving us the time

12 to study the exhibits, their scope and their contents, and to be able to

13 reply to them.

14 When we were supposed to say something about the Defence witnesses

15 during the rebuttal, we said that we did not see the need to hear these

16 witnesses because we believe that the Trial Chamber is absolutely clear on

17 our case. We could have called a number of witnesses, but we were

18 prevented from doing so by the Prosecution. How? Simply, some of them

19 they announced as their witnesses, but they haven't called them. The

20 others they have contacted, thus preventing the Defence from calling them

21 as their witnesses. The Prosecutor is thus planting a cuckoo's egg on us.

22 He has delivered to us a statement by the investigator of the Prosecution

23 team because it was to be expected that we couldn't take that for granted,

24 that we would object to that statement, asking for its verification.

25 We are claiming that the investigator's statement is not enough

Page 15901

1 to prove the origin of the wooden rifle. She is supposed to provide

2 hearsay evidence that she heard from a person whose name I'm not going to

3 mention, and that person does not want to appear in front of this Trial

4 Chamber. The Prosecutor is trying to stage a show, as if we were in a

5 theatre. She is trying to create the illusion of truth by showing us, so

6 to say, a wooden rifle that he was provided with by AID. And then, when

7 the Prosecutor failed to transform illusion into the reality, then -- and

8 he couldn't do that by means of Witness OO and Witness PP, then he calls

9 the investigator rather than the person who allegedly held the wooden

10 rifle in his hands.

11 I suggest that the Trial Chamber denies the Prosecutor to do

12 that. If the Trial Chamber accepts that as evidence, then we ask for a

13 period of 15 days for us to prepare for the cross-examination and to

14 verify the exhibits and to subject that wooden rifle to an expert opinion,

15 because we have to be able to prove this forgery that was created by the

16 Bosniak intelligence service.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just briefly, I would like

19 to address a new issue that is closely connected with what has been said

20 so far.

21 With regard to the Prosecutor's motion, we are now faced with the

22 issue of the timing for the closing brief. According to the current

23 schedule, the closing brief was scheduled for the 23rd of October, and the

24 closing argument was supposed to take place on the 28th of October. As

25 things stand currently, we believe that this scheduled is unsustainable,

Page 15902

1 for the following reasons:

2 Firstly, the schedule was drafted based on the expectations that

3 the Prosecutor's rebuttal will adhere to the decision of the Trial

4 Chamber. Now the Defence has been faced with new exhibits, new evidence,

5 and thus we have wasted almost one week that we have allocated for

6 drafting our closing brief. At the same time, by the decision of the 14th

7 of October, we are expected to start our rejoinder, for which we now don't

8 know how long it will last, whether we will be able to have this rifle,

9 wooden rifle, for the expert opinion, and all that is preventing us from

10 starting our closing brief and closing argument.

11 Thirdly, something that is a very serious issue to my mind when it

12 comes to the schedule, that is, the issue of the closing brief and when

13 that should be delivered, and this has a lot to do with the equality of

14 arms in these proceedings. It has been determined that both the

15 Prosecution and the Defence should send the text of the closing brief to

16 the Trial Chamber. However, the Defence is supposed to send that in the

17 English, as well as the Prosecution. The Defence, when it has finally

18 drafted the closing brief, will need at least seven days to have it

19 translated into English. At the same time, the Prosecution doesn't need

20 those seven days for the translation, because it will have already been

21 drafted in English, and they will actually have seven days more.

22 So because of this matter of translation, the two sides are not

23 equal, because the Defence has less time to work on the closing brief.

24 Bearing in mind all the situation, the Defence can say today that

25 the 23rd of October, as the deadline for submitting the closing brief in

Page 15903

1 English, is unacceptable because we have lost some time due to the new

2 motion by the Prosecution. We need seven days for the translation, so we

3 won't be in the position to deliver our closing brief by the 23rd of

4 October. Therefore, we have the following proposal: To extend the

5 deadline for the closing brief by seven days, which will allow us to have

6 it translated, or, conversely, to order the Prosecution to translate their

7 closing brief into Croatian and have it delivered to us within the

8 deadline established by the Trial Chamber.

9 We are calling upon the equality of arms in these proceedings, and

10 we are calling upon the right of our client, who is entitled to have every

11 piece of document in their mother tongue in order to be able to

12 participate in these proceedings. So this is our proposal. Thank you

13 very much.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Your

16 Honours, I don't know how to address you this morning, because what is

17 happening here and what the Prosecutor is giving himself the right to do

18 all the time, and what has he given the right himself to do finally, I

19 really don't know how to call that. In any case, for seven days I have

20 been thinking. On Saturday I arrived to find new faxes, new documents. I

21 really cannot believe that what the Defence has been claiming all the

22 while, and that is the Prosecution is not acting bona fide, that they

23 still do that. Now we have been given exculpatory materials about the

24 events in Jablanica and Konjic, although I'm sure, and I claim, that they

25 had it a long time ago. However, we only received those documents three

Page 15904

1 or four days ago.

2 Not only that, Your Honours: While checking the materials that

3 the Prosecution has sent us, I have come across some statements, the

4 statements by the witnesses who have appeared before this Court, who have

5 given their statements to the AID, and the Defence didn't have those

6 statements when these witnesses appeared before the Trial Chamber. The

7 Prosecution, on the other hand, must have had them at that time, because

8 they have sent those statements to us within the Mostar file. This

9 corroborates another fact, and that is that the Prosecutor knew very well

10 that the proceedings took place not in Mostar, but in Konjic, under the

11 so-called Sovic, the Sovici Indictment, and he obviously knew very well

12 which documents he had, which he didn't have, but he manipulated with

13 these documents. Now the Prosecutor may claim that they have 5.000 or

14 millions of documents, 200 investigators. However, this corroborates the

15 fact that they really have those documents. Now his argument will be: "I

16 can't find all these documents. But whenever they are delivered to me, I

17 will deliver them to the Defence."

18 Your Honours, the story about the equality of arms before this

19 Trial Chamber is simply ridiculous. The story about the equality of arms

20 and the equality of possibilities given to the Prosecution and to the

21 Defence is farcical. The Prosecution has so much power before this Trial

22 Chamber and this Tribunal that only history and the future analysis will

23 be able to show and demonstrate that, but it will be too late for some of

24 the people who appear before this Tribunal.

25 Your Honours, the Defence has been dramatically aggrieved. Can we

Page 15905

1 please move into private session so I can give you some concrete

2 examples?

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we have the witnesses waiting

4 outside, and today we are going to hear the witnesses in the rebuttal

5 proceedings. We will not discuss all those procedural matters at this

6 stage. I believe that if you have some complaint to make, the best way is

7 to file it in a written motion rather than discuss it at this moment.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours, and this is

9 how things happen, day in, day out, and I wonder here where justice is and

10 what justice are we going to have if we are in a hurry because of the

11 witnesses, as if the witnesses couldn't wait. Are we really not concerned

12 with what is really going on? Can I really believe in justice? Why can't

13 we have the witnesses wait for another two or three days? Are we going

14 to lose? Is the justice going to lose if the witnesses wait? In any

15 case, I will abide by your every ruling, but this is the end of our case

16 and we are experiencing, at the hand of the Prosecution, what we are

17 experiencing, and I think I have the right to tell you that.

18 Let me go back to my original issue. To hear two investigators

19 during the rebuttal --

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer. Do you have any response?

21 MR. STRINGER: I do, Mr. President, because --

22 JUDGE LIU: Please do it very briefly.

23 MR. STRINGER: You've anticipated perfectly what is the issue of

24 greatest concern to me at the moment, which is the fact that we have a

25 nervous witness waiting outside, a victim of a lot of events which the

Page 15906

1 Trial Chamber is not going to hear about during his testimony, but we've

2 got a real nervous witness waiting outside, and despite my own interest in

3 listening to the oratory of Mr. Krsnik and his ruminations about the

4 meaning of justice, I think it would be more useful to us, and certainly

5 more relevant to these proceedings, if we could deal with the witness who

6 is waiting. It seems to me that most of the issues that are being raised

7 by counsel this morning relate either to procedure or to a different

8 rebuttal witness who has been approved. So I think much of what is being

9 claimed, which is, if I may say, it's our view that counsel have taken

10 great liberties with the realities of the situation this morning, we

11 intend to address those specifically. But if I could just request the

12 Trial Chamber to bear in mind that we do have a nervous witness whose

13 testimony is not expected to take a very long time, and which I think

14 after he's testified we could easily come back to these issues and take

15 care of them in as much time as the Trial Chamber wants.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that Mr. Krsnik is going to tell about

17 his reaction about the witness list at this moment.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. However,

19 primarily I am surprised with the fact that my learned friend has

20 interrupted me and that he has objected to something that the counsel,

21 Defence counsel, had to say. I don't know whether that is the practice in

22 the Anglo-saxon law. It is not the witness who is nervous, but the

23 Prosecutor who is nervous. And as far as that is concerned, my client has

24 been ill, sitting here for a year. Nobody has ever wondered about his

25 situation, whether he's nervous, whether he is ill, what his situation is,

Page 15907

1 and all of a sudden he expresses so much concern about his witness.

2 Your Honours, Saturday we received the following message from the

3 Prosecution, and that is that the witness who is now waiting nervously

4 outside would be testifying about the Rados diary, and we received

5 that on Saturday. But at the same time, your ruling was clear, and that

6 is that he couldn't testify about that, but just about the circumstances

7 indicated in your order, and that is the circumstances regarding Sovici

8 and the participation of my client in any of these events. But we

9 received this fax on Saturday, asking us whether we would object,

10 half-witted as we are, he probably thought we wouldn't be able to read it

11 and then he would be able to just do it during the direct examination.

12 They should abide by your ruling. They shouldn't do it. However, they

13 did it, and now we are afraid that things will be done as previously. I

14 am not ready to cross-examine. I have to prepare myself. I'm not ready

15 at all, and I'm not ready to cross-examine Mrs. Apolonia Bos. I hope she

16 is not related to my learned friend sitting over there. And Mr. Prelec.

17 These are new exhibits, new witnesses. What are they going to testify

18 about? They had the time to testify during the proceedings, and those

19 witnesses are going to give us secondhand evidence that they heard from a

20 third hand. And if Mr. Prelec has already been heard by this Trial

21 Chamber twice and now he has to come here so that the Prosecution could

22 tender some new documents through him, but we have to be made aware of

23 these documents in order to be able to reply to these documents, to be

24 able to prepare. In that case, Your Honours, all the deadlines that you

25 have given us can just not be adhered to.

Page 15908

1 And finally, Your Honours, we have sent you a brief motion earlier

2 this morning. We hope you will receive it by the end of the day. And

3 when I asked you to move into private session, I wanted to talk about the

4 witness that is waiting outside. But that is something I cannot say in

5 open session. I must say that I'm not ready to cross-examine him, because

6 I have come across another statement that is directly relative to him. I

7 cannot say anything about that statement in the open session. What I'm

8 trying to say is -- what I'm trying to ask you is for you, Your Honours,

9 to warn our learned friends -- when you warn them that they should give us

10 the exculpatory documents, they said that they didn't have them. Now all

11 of a sudden they have them. Now I would like to ask them to give us all

12 the exculpatory documents, and those are all the documents by the BH Army,

13 the Court documents against AID that they have, because they have given

14 them to our colleagues, Defence counsels in other cases. So we would like

15 from them -- to receive from them all the exculpatory documents. This is

16 their duty. They cannot manipulate with exculpatory documents. They are

17 not here to carry out their own justice, but to serve justice.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President. The microphone is on. I

20 think it's best to --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. --

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I just wanted to be clear that I

25 understood the discussions on the Bench, or presume the discussions on the

Page 15909

1 Bench were primarily ones about scheduling and the order in which to take

2 these matters. Obviously the Prosecution wants very much to be heard on

3 the substance of the allegations that have been made this morning before

4 the Chamber would address any substantive ruling about that. We would be

5 at a clear disadvantage if we're not given a chance to respond to rather

6 serious unfounded allegations that have been made.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think there are three matters, you know, that

8 we have to deal with at this moment. The first one is about the list of

9 the witnesses. We understand that the Prosecution filed that motion for

10 supplemental witnesses at a later stage. So at this moment, we are not

11 quite sure whether we would like to hear the two other additional

12 witnesses in the rebuttal proceedings for this week.

13 So today we'll start with the Witness ACD in their current

14 filings, and later on we'll make a decision whether there's any need to

15 hear the two investigators in the OTP's team. Because all those rebuttal

16 witnesses should be restricted first to the event related to Sovici and

17 the Doljani, as well as the burial of Mr. Harmandzic. Second, to the

18 identification of the wooden rifle; thirdly is to be restricted to the

19 Rados diary. These three areas we'll decide at a later stage whether we

20 are going to hear the two additional witnesses.

21 As for the second issue, the postponement of the filing of the

22 closing argument, we believe that this Trial Chamber give enough time to

23 both parties to prepare their final closing argument compared with other

24 Trial Chambers. So we would like to abide by the order we rendered

25 previously in this respect.

Page 15910

1 The third matter is about exculpatory materials alleged to be

2 given recently by the Prosecution. This Trial Chamber knows next to

3 nothing about this issue, and we are expecting the filings from both

4 parties.

5 It is so decided. Let's hear the first witness, please.

6 Yes, Mr. Meek.

7 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, may it please the Trial Chamber. Your

8 ruling is just settled a couple of matters, but this first witness, we

9 still have the issue and the problem that the Prosecutor just last

10 Saturday faxed us information that he intends to elicit evidence from this

11 first witness that is not in your prior ruling, in your prior order, and

12 you've not addressed that issue yet, and that's the issue about this

13 alleged Rados diary. They told us that two days ago. This first

14 witness was restricted to Sovici, 17th and 18th of April. Now they intend

15 to lead evidence about the Rados diary, we they claim they just found

16 out about on Friday. That issue has not been resolved, unless it has,

17 correct me, but if they're restricted to what your prior order was, I'm

18 satisfied with that, and we'll make the objections as the witness

19 testifies if they want to get into that additional area.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, we know next to nothing about this

21 matter. Would you please give us some explanations about that.

22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, and that's my problem. The Defence

23 has now gone on for half an hour, without any response by the Prosecution,

24 and that's our concern. We're not going to handle all these issues now,

25 because of what the Chamber has already said. We're more than happy to

Page 15911

1 address every issue and according to the Court's schedule we will.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for interpretation.

3 MR. SCOTT: Let me say first of all, as to the matter with the

4 witness about to be called and the Rados diary. The witness was first

5 seen by members of my staff on Friday. In the course of the day,

6 completely -- it became clear for the first time that the witness had

7 something to say about the Rados diary. It had never showed up in any

8 prior interviews. It had simply never come up before. When it came to our

9 attention, we respectfully submit, Your Honours, we did the only thing

10 professionally appropriate to do, and we faxed that information to the

11 Defence so that it indeed would not be heard for the first time, it would

12 not be sprung on them during the witness's in-court testimony. So it's

13 our position, whatever the Court's ultimate ruling would be, and of course

14 we would abide by that, but the Chamber should please understand that we

15 believe we have acted honourably and we have acted as soon as the

16 information came to our attention. It is information which is indeed

17 directly related to one of the rebuttal issues which the Chamber has said

18 is proper for the Prosecution to tender evidence on. It is not a new

19 issue. It is the Rados diary issue. And we respectfully submit, Your

20 Honour, on that matter, that we have done everything possible to give

21 notice and we have conducted ourselves quite fairly and honestly in the

22 matter. I won't belabour it on this point, Your Honour, save this: When

23 I compare the allegations and assertions that is have been made by counsel

24 this morning to the numerous problems and lack of disclosure that the

25 Prosecution received over the past four or five months in the Defence

Page 15912

1 case, it pales in comparison. It pales in comparison. This Prosecution

2 team has conducted itself honourably throughout these proceedings. We

3 respectfully submit. I'm happy to respond to any specific allegation.

4 I'm confident that I will be able to show the Chamber that the allegations

5 made are baseless. I feel also compelled, Your Honour, to say that, in

6 terms of the schedule this Court has given just now, the indication of, I

7 don't think it would be appropriate for me to -- for us to go forward with

8 some misunderstanding. The Witness C on our list of supplemental filing

9 has refused to appear. He will not come to The Hague. He will not appear.

10 Witness D is not available to testify until tomorrow. So the only

11 witness, apart from Witnesses B and E, the only witnesses we would be able

12 to call today the witness list that is number A. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your information.

14 Yes, Mr. Par.

15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Just very briefly, Mr. President, with

16 regard to the decision that you rendered today about time limits for

17 submitting the closing brief. I would now like to make a verbal request,

18 pursuant to Rule 21 -- Article 21 of the Statute, paragraph 4. I would

19 request that the closing brief of the Prosecutor be provided to our client

20 in his mother tongue, and that he respect the same time limit that we have

21 to respect when providing the Prosecution with the brief in English.

22 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, forgive me. The Rules do not require

23 that, plainly. Pleadings don't have to be translated into the B/C/S

24 language. That's clear Tribunal jurisprudence. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think we have spent enough time on those

Page 15913

1 issues. We could deal with it at a later stage.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, after consultations with my colleagues, we are

4 going to hear the witness about his testimony on the events related to

5 Sovici and Doljani, as well as the burial of Harmandzic. We're also going

6 to hear the witness's testimony about the Rados diary, because this matter

7 was one of the three matters granted by this Trial Chamber. Of course, we

8 believe that the Defence counsel will be in a disadvantaged

9 position at this moment, so we decided that the Defence counsel could

10 conduct its cross-examination tomorrow. It is so decided.

11 Could we have the witness, please.

12 Are there any protective measures for this witness? Yes,

13 Mr. Stringer.

14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the witness is requesting pseudonym

15 and facial distortion. I believe he will be Witness AF, as in Frank,

16 Alpha Francis.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any objections for the protective measures?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't hear what my

19 colleague said. I was consulting with my colleague. I have no objections

20 to make to protective measures.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

22 Mr. Seric, any objections?

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. The request has been granted. Could we

25 have the witness, please.

Page 15914

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, may I inquire at what time the Trial

2 Chamber intends to take the first break this morning?

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, at 11.00.

4 MR. STRINGER: 11.00.

5 JUDGE LIU: 11.00.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

15 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

18 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

19 A. Good morning. Yes.

20 Q. Before we begin with your testimony, I will inform you that the

21 Trial Chamber has granted the request that you made for protective

22 measures, so that when you testify, we're going to refer to you by a

23 pseudonym, which is "Witness AF." So I'll ask you in your testimony not

24 to mention your own name or the names of family members, persons, in a way

25 that you would identify you. Okay?

Page 15915

1 Let me also mention: I think that it's important that all of us

2 can hear you, and so if you could just try to remember to keep your voice

3 up, it would assist those who are doing the interpretation.

4 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps we can move the microphones a little closer

5 to the witness, please, also.

6 Q. Witness, the usher is showing you a piece of paper, and I want to

7 ask you if you can look at the paper, tell us whether your name and your

8 birth date appear correctly on the piece of paper.

9 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

10 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, could we go into private session for

11 just a few preliminary questions?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15916

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]


9 Q. Witness, also just one general question. Sir, are you of the

10 Bosnian Muslim faith or ethnic group?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Now, as someone who lived in Sovici, did you live in the area of

13 the Sovici school?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, Witness, first I want to take you back a few months from

16 April and to the late part of 1992 or the early part of 1993, and I want

17 to ask you whether during that time you became associated in any way with

18 the HVO, or particularly, the 3rd Mijat Tomic Battalion of the HVO.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell the Judges how that came about?

21 A. Well, they were making a road, Sovici-Jablanica, that route, and

22 they suggested there was heavy equipment there on parts of the road, and

23 they needed to get -- designate four men to guard the machines, two

24 Muslims and two Croats. So I and another person, who was also a Muslim,

25 were designated and two colleagues were designated to represented the

Page 15917

1 Croats. And they did this job. And I was on the list with their soldiers

2 all the time. I was on the list of their soldiers.

3 Q. When you say you were on the list of their soldiers, which group

4 are you referring to?

5 A. I'm referring to the Mijat Tomic group.

6 Q. And did you have that task in April of 1993, that is, to guard the

7 road-making machines?

8 A. Yes, to the very end, to the time when the village of Sovici was

9 attacked.

10 Q. And if perhaps my colleagues will allow me just to ask a couple

11 more directive questions. Witness, did you -- your task, then, too was to

12 guard or to watch over this machinery during the night-time; is that

13 correct?

14 A. That's correct, yes.

15 Q. Did you wear a uniform or did you have any weapons that were

16 issued to you by the 3rd Mijat Tomic Battalion?

17 A. We didn't have any weapons, but we did have uniforms.

18 Q. Now, did you then go, on the night of the 16th of April, 1993, to

19 go fulfil this task and to watch over the road-making machinery?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what time of day did you finish with that task and return

22 home?

23 A. In the morning, about half past 5.00, half past 6.00, something

24 like that.

25 Q. So now this would be the morning of the 17th of April, 1993?

Page 15918

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You've already referred to an attack, I believe. Can you just

3 tell the Trial Chamber what happened in Sovici on that day? What happened

4 to you and other members of your family?

5 A. Something surprising happened after all of that. About

6 7.30/quarter to 8.00, the shelling of the village started. No one knew

7 what was happening.

8 Q. Were you able to tell from what location the shelling was coming?

9 A. From the Risovac area, from Sovici Vrata.

10 Q. Where were you when the shelling started?

11 A. I was on the road leading from the house to the workshop, as there

12 was no electricity. I went to the car to listen to the news, and halfway

13 down the road I heard intense shooting.

14 Q. Do you know why there was no electricity on that morning?

15 A. The electricity supply had been cut off two days ago, because

16 Jablanica had been shelled two days earlier on, from the direction of

17 Risovac.

18 Q. Now, when the shelling started then, did you remain in your house

19 with other members of your family then for that day?

20 A. No. As I had a young baby and my brother's young baby in the

21 house, who had been born 15 days prior to the attack, I took the baby to

22 my uncle's house, where there was a concrete slab.

23 Q. Did he also live in the village of Sovici?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You made reference to a concrete slab. Perhaps you could give us

Page 15919

1 more information about that. Was his house different than yours?

2 A. Yes. Our houses had been constructed out of wood for the most

3 part. It was a wooden construction. The roof was wooden, so it was very

4 easy for a shell to pass through and hit the room.

5 Q. And was your uncle's house different in some way?

6 A. What do you mean? In what respect?

7 Q. Was his house constructed in a way that made it stronger to

8 withstand the shelling?

9 A. Well, yes. It was a newly constructed house. It had been

10 constructed out of concrete and by using concrete slabs. It had two such

11 slabs. It had been perhaps one year earlier on.

12 Q. How long did you remain with the others at your uncle's house?

13 A. We spent the whole day there, until about 4.00 or 5.00, sometime

14 in the evening.

15 Q. How long did the shelling last that day?

16 A. Well, it lasted for the entire day, from morning to night, until

17 late at night, until 8.00 and after that.

18 Q. You say you remained there until about 4.00 or 5.00 in the late

19 afternoon or evening. Then what happened at that point?

20 A. Yes. Two soldiers appeared from up above, from the direction of

21 Risovac. They had visited us on previous occasions. They would come to

22 eat something. They came and they asked us -- they said if anyone has

23 weapons, that they should be taken to Stipe Pole's house. They said that

24 nobody should be touched, that it was a matter of policy. There were

25 negotiations of some kind, so that nothing should happen to anyone. He

Page 15920

1 said that we were safe, et cetera.

2 Q. Do you know the name of -- or which unit or organisation these

3 soldiers belonged to?

4 A. These soldiers belonged to a unit from Posusje. They were from

5 Posusje.

6 Q. Were they in the HVO or the ABiH?

7 A. The HVO.

8 Q. You mentioned that they said that the weapons should be taken to

9 someone's house. I wanted to make sure we have it correct in the record.

10 What was the name of the person where the -- whose house was it that the

11 weapons should be taken to?

12 A. The house belonged to Stipe Pole, further down below, in Srednja

13 Mahala.

14 Q. So then did you begin moving down towards Srednja Mahala and the

15 house of Stipe Pole?

16 MR. MEEK: I object to the leading nature of the questions.

17 That's a leading question, and we're beyond background.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, you know this is rebuttal

19 proceedings. During the rebuttal proceedings, you know, we have to lead

20 this witness directly to the events that he's going to testify. So in the

21 rebuttal proceedings, to a great extent we'll allow the leading questions.

22 MR. MEEK: The leading questions are allowed in the rebuttal case

23 and the rejoinder case; is that the Rules?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. MEEK: Okay. Thank you.

Page 15921

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We don't have to spend much more time on the

2 background issues.

3 You may proceed, Mr. Stringer.


5 Q. These soldiers, were they armed, Witness?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. They told you to surrender your weapons at Stipe Pole's house,

8 you said. So what did you do?

9 A. Those who had weapons took them down there, and then they locked

10 them in Stipe Pole's basement.

11 Q. Did you go down there from your uncle's house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did other members of your family go with you?

14 A. Yes. All the male members, both those who were of age, as well

15 as adults, went there.

16 Q. Did you go by yourself or were you accompanied?

17 A. The two soldiers went with us. We went all of us together. The

18 whole group of us who were in the house at the time.

19 Q. Now, at this point, did you hear or learn anything about what was

20 taking place in the village?

21 A. No, I didn't hear anything specific, but it all sounded like a

22 game, like something funny, like a child's game.

23 Q. Who was the local commander of the ABiH in Sovici?

24 A. Dzemal Ovnovic.

25 Q. Do you know what he was doing at that point?

Page 15922

1 A. He was the one informing the population of the village, asking

2 them to surrender their weapons, promising that nothing would happen to

3 any of us, that he personally negotiated with Tuta, and so on and so

4 forth.

5 Q. Had you ever heard of Tuta before?

6 A. Yes, but I never saw him.

7 Q. So did you have any weapons that you surrendered on that day?

8 A. We had weapons in the house, weapons that we had from 1967 on.

9 Those were hunters' rifles, two hunters' rifles.

10 Q. And where did you get those rifles? I say on the day, the 17th,

11 where were they?

12 A. They were in the house, and nobody wore them. Those rifles

13 belonged to my father. He had them for 20 years, used them when he went

14 hunting. He used them for sports. So nobody wore those rifles at the

15 time.

16 Q. Were the rifles in your uncle's house or in your own house on that

17 day?

18 A. In our own house.

19 Q. Did you use those rifles at all on the 17th of April?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What happened when you arrived at Stipe Pole's house?

22 A. We surrendered the weapons, and then they locked us in the

23 basement of that house.

24 Q. What time of day was it, approximately, when you arrived at Stipe

25 Pole's house?

Page 15923

1 A. It was around 6.00 in the evening.

2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, with the usher's assistance, I'd

3 like to show the witness a photograph, one that's been marked P6.8. I've

4 got one in my hand that we can work with, if it makes things easier. Yes,

5 on the ELMO, please.

6 Q. Witness, if you could look at the photograph that's to your side

7 there. I want to ask you if you see the house of Stipe Pole anywhere in

8 this photograph.

9 A. Yes, I can see it.

10 Q. Can you take the red marker, please, and put a circle around

11 that?

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Now, I have also Exhibit P6.7 that you can ... we'll get to that

14 one in a minute.

15 Witness, how long did you remain in the basement at the house of

16 Stipe Pole that evening?

17 A. Until 9.00, or maybe even longer, in the night.

18 Q. How many others were held in the basement that evening?

19 A. There were over 70 people locked in there.

20 Q. Do you know where these other people had come from?

21 A. All of them were from the village, from Sovici.

22 Q. Did they belong to any particular ethnic group?

23 A. No. They were all Muslims.

24 Q. Now, at about 9.00, or at some point, did you leave the basement

25 of Stipe Pole's house and go to a different location?

Page 15924

1 A. Yes. Around 9.00, the local leaders came, the local leaders of

2 the HVO. They lined us up and then they took us to the Sovici school.

3 Q. Do you see the Sovici school on the other photograph, P6.7?

4 A. Yes, I can see it.

5 Q. Then turning to the photograph at your side, can I ask you to

6 place a circle around the Sovici circle?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Witness, what is the approximate distance from the house of Stipe

9 Pole to the Sovici school?

10 A. Two hundred or two hundred and fifty metres, as the crow flies,

11 approximately.

12 Q. How long did you and the others remain in the school?

13 A. We spent the night there, and we stayed there the whole next day

14 until sometime in the afternoon, late in the afternoon.

15 Q. What happened during that night, that first night that was spent

16 in the Sovici school?

17 A. Some soldiers came. People were harassed, taken out, taken back,

18 interrogated, and that went on until the morning.

19 Q. You mentioned that you recognised a couple of these soldiers who

20 came from Posusje. Do you know what other HVO units were present, if any,

21 in the village at that time?

22 A. There were a lot of units that I had never seen before. There

23 were a lot of Tuta's men, and other local men. There were a lot of men

24 from Posusje.

25 Q. You mentioned Tuta's men. What was it about them that allowed you

Page 15925

1 to identify them as Tuta's men?

2 A. They had the insignia and their uniforms were different. They

3 were not the same as the uniforms of the others.

4 Q. Were you beaten or mistreated or interrogated during that night at

5 the Sovici school?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, then, what happened the

8 following morning, which I believe would be the 18th of April?

9 A. On the following morning, Mr. Tuta came with his escorts and our

10 local leaders also came, and they freed a room in the school. They gave

11 it to Mr. Tuta. And all day long he interrogated and mistreated the

12 detained soldiers, and so on and so forth.

13 Q. Did you see him when he arrived?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know who accompanied him? You mentioned some other

16 persons. Do you know their names or their positions?

17 A. I don't know their positions, but they mentioned the name Cikota,

18 Robi and some other names. I had never seen them before, but in any

19 case, there were a few of them.

20 Q. Was this Tuta in uniform?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall what kind of vehicle he arrived in?

23 A. It was a white jeep.

24 Q. How long did he remain in the Sovici school on that day? I'm

25 talking about Tuta.

Page 15926

1 A. Yes. He remained there some time, but not all day. He

2 disappeared at one point. And then he -- the local commanders came later

3 on. Tuta also came again. They lined us up in front of the school

4 building, and one of our local commanders, Ivan Rogic, produced a piece

5 of paper from his pocket and started reading, saying that we were

6 sentenced because of the rebellion against the legal government of

7 Herceg-Bosna.

8 Q. Witness, were you interrogated on that day by Tuta?

9 A. Not me personally, but others, yes, some of them.

10 Q. Did you remain in the school building itself for the entire day?

11 A. Not me personally, but others did. I was taken away by his

12 soldiers. I was mistreated all day long.

13 Q. Where did his soldiers take you?

14 A. They took me to the summer kitchen belonging to Ivan Pole and

15 they intended to chop my head off with an axe.

16 MR. STRINGER: If we could come back to the last photograph that I

17 showed the witness. I think it was 7.6.

18 Q. Witness, if I could ask you again to look at this photograph. Do

19 you see the place that you've described as the smoke house on that

20 photograph?

21 A. Yes, I can see that.

22 Q. Can you take the green marker and put a circle around this smoke

23 house, please?

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Witness, do you know the reason -- were you informed the reason

Page 15927

1 why you were taken to this smoke house and why they threatened to

2 decapitate you?

3 A. Yes, I know. Somebody maliciously said that I had a sniper, that

4 I hadn't surrendered, and they wanted to force me to surrender it,

5 although I never had it.

6 Q. Are you referring to a sniper rifle?

7 A. No. No. I surrendered my rifle, but optical instruments they

8 thought I had, and I never had them.

9 Q. After this incident in the smoke house, were you returned back to

10 the Sovici school?

11 A. No. I was returned behind the school, where I found some people

12 who were tied and who were prostrated on the ground.

13 Q. And what happened at that point?

14 A. Then my hands were also tied. They ordered me to lie down next to

15 them. There was a man standing above us with his rifle aimed at us.

16 Q. Witness, then what happened next?

17 A. A neighbour came by. His name is Ivan Kolak. He came from his

18 barn. He asked us what was going on, and I told him, "I cannot seem to

19 persuade these people that I don't have the sniper's scope. I never had

20 it. But I can't seem to persuade them that that is true."

21 Q. And what did Mr. Kolak say?

22 A. Mr. Kolak said, "Guys, I know the man. He really doesn't have

23 it. We used to hunt together. We used to hang out together. But you can

24 do whatever you want to do."

25 Q. So then did the soldiers allow you to join the others?

Page 15928

1 A. Yes. They ordered me to stand up, that I -- they untied my hands

2 and then they ordered me to untie the others who were tied up.

3 Q. From that point, then, near the school, where did you go and what

4 happened next?

5 A. They returned us to the area in front of the building. There were

6 some people lined up there already. All around the school there was the

7 army guarding us so that nobody would escape. Then they lined us up in

8 front of Stipe Pole's house, on the plateau, and that's where we were

9 forced to load buses.

10 Q. Now, a few minutes ago you mentioned a speech that was made, and I

11 wanted to ask you just a few questions about that.

12 A. When we returned to the area behind the school, we found some

13 people lined up there. We joined that line. And then Ivan Rogic took a

14 piece of paper from his pocket, started reading, mentioning some

15 rebellion, that we were the ones who rebelled against somebody.

16 Q. Who was Ivan Rogic?

17 A. Ivan Rogic was somebody who lived there. He was a neighbour of

18 ours, and he used to work in Jablanica as a judge, in the municipal court

19 there.

20 Q. Do you know whether any other HVO people were present when he was

21 giving this speech?

22 A. Yes. Everybody was there. Mr. Tuta and others were there. There

23 were a lot of soldiers, quite a few of the local commanders, and so on.

24 Q. Now, after this speech was finished what occurred next?

25 A. Then they drove us to the plateau in front of Stipe Pole's house,

Page 15929

1 where a bus had already been waiting for us.

2 Q. Did you and the others then board the bus?

3 A. Yes, we did.

4 Q. And where were you taken on the bus?

5 A. We were taken towards Doljani, in the direction of Doljani, and

6 then we took another road, and they returned us towards the Sovici-Vrata,

7 the Sovici gate.

8 Q. Where was the final destination that you eventually reached?

9 A. The final destination was when we arrived in Ljubuski. That was

10 in the early hours of the morning.

11 Q. How were you and the others treated during the bus ride to

12 Ljubuski?

13 A. Terrible. Really, really badly.

14 Q. Do you recall any of the prisoners who received particularly bad

15 treatment during that bus ride?

16 A. Yes, I do. Dzemal suffered most, and others, all those who were

17 in the front of the bus, closer to the driver, they suffered the most

18 beating.

19 Q. And that was Dzemal who? What was the full name of that person?

20 A. Ovnovic.

21 Q. Do you recall any soldiers who were particularly brutal to the

22 prisoners during this bus ride?

23 A. I do. Robi accompanied us, and Cikota was there all the time,

24 all the way to Ljubuski. And there were some other soldiers there as

25 well.

Page 15930












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 15930 to 15933.













Page 15934

1 Q. Okay, Witness. Now, you arrived in Ljubuski, as you said, the

2 following morning.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And we're going to -- we're just about at the point of taking our

5 morning break, and we're going to move through your -- we're going to move

6 past your experience at Ljubuski. I'm not going to ask you about that,

7 but simply to ask you how long you remained as a prisoner in Ljubuski.

8 MR. MEEK: Judge, we object.


10 MR. MEEK: That's beyond the scope of this witness's -- it's

11 beyond the scope of this Trial Chamber's order as to what this witness

12 could testify to. So the bus ride, as a matter of fact, and I ask that

13 that be stricken from the record.

14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if I could respond.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this moment we don't know whether this

16 question is related to the subject-matter of the rebuttal proceedings.

17 Mr. Stringer, would you please enlighten us on that.

18 MR. STRINGER: Well, I think I just said that I'm not going to ask

19 the witness about anything that happened in Ljubuski. We could spend a

20 good full hour on that. But I think it's necessary to at least establish

21 the period of time that the witness was held in Ljubuski so that then it

22 makes sense to the Trial Chamber when we discuss his arrival date at the

23 Heliodrom, which does take us directly into the next part of his

24 testimony. So I think that counsel is being a bit overly technical here.

25 I'm just simply trying to place this in a context so the Trial Chamber can

Page 15935

1 know what is the sequence of events, without going into the specific

2 details or evidence about what happened in Ljubuski.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

4 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, we filed a written submission two weeks

5 ago where we alleged that the Prosecution was doing nothing more than

6 bolstering and shoring up the weaknesses in their case. You denied that,

7 and here we are. It's an improper question. It goes beyond the scope of

8 what this Trial Chamber said this witness could testify concerning, and it

9 seems that the Trial Chamber's orders get rewritten continuously by the

10 Prosecution in the manner in which they ask the questions, in the manner

11 in which they get by with what they do. We object. You make the call,

12 Your Honours, but it is absolutely beyond it. He can testify -- when

13 he -- got to the Heliodrom, perhaps, but we object, Your Honours, strongly

14 about anything about Ljubuski, the bus ride. This shouldn't have been

15 testified to. I ask that that be stricken. And the next subject that he

16 has to testify is only about the burial, the alleged burial, of

17 Harmandzic, not about the Heliodrom, not about Ljubuski or anything else,

18 Your Honours. And we object. You entered an order. We think the

19 Prosecution should abide by it.

20 MR. STRINGER: I can't be any more clear, Mr. President. I'm not

21 going to ask him about Ljubuski.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, I understand that. I think you informed us

23 that you are going to establish the sequence of the events step by step,

24 Mr. Stringer. I think this question is allowed in that aspect. But I

25 hope you could come to that subject-matter as soon as possible so is that

Page 15936

1 we don't have to spend much more time to establish the background issue

2 and the sequence matters.

3 MR. STRINGER: I can do it in one question before the break,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.


7 Q. Witness, did you spend approximately a month and a half as a

8 prisoner in Ljubuski before being transferred to the Heliodrom?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

11 We're ready for the break, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll break until 11.30.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer. Please continue.

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Witness, now, I want to take you to the time that you spent at the

18 Heliodrom, and specifically in respect of one event that occurred during

19 the time that you were detained there. First of all, just so the Trial

20 Chamber knows: You've testified that you spent about a month and a half

21 in Ljubuski before going to the Heliodrom. How long did you remain as a

22 detainee in the Heliodrom before you were eventually released?

23 A. Well, we spent a total of 11 months in the camp, so about 9 1/2

24 months in the Heliodrom.

25 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you about an incident. First let

Page 15937

1 me ask you this: During the time that you were a prisoner at the

2 Heliodrom, were you involved in the burial of bodies?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. How many times were you involved in burying bodies, where were

5 those bodies buried?

6 A. On two occasions. The first time I was involved was at the

7 so-called Muslim cemetery, in Miljkovici, where we buried 72 or 73

8 inmates; and on the second occasion, it was in the Liska Park cemetery. I

9 buried someone there.

10 Q. Can you -- the second occasion that you just mentioned, can you

11 say again the name of the cemetery where that burial occurred?

12 A. The first place was in Miljkovici, and on the second occasion we

13 buried someone in Liska Park.

14 Q. I want to ask you about the burial at Liska Park. First of all,

15 do you recall approximately the month or the time when that happened?

16 A. Not the exact date. I can't remember it. But it was in the

17 summer. It was in July or in August, something like that.

18 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, then, about that day, that

19 incident, how it came to pass that you were involved in burying this

20 particular body?

21 A. Well, the first time I buried a body in Liska Park, it was a man

22 who had been killed across the road from the medical centre. He had been

23 killed in the street. Two inmates brought him to us, and we had been

24 selected, three of us had been selected to dig a grave for him.

25 Q. Let me take you back to the beginning of that day just so that we

Page 15938

1 get the full story. Where were you on that day? Where were you? Were

2 you in the Heliodrom when that day began?

3 A. No. We were working near the medical centre.

4 Q. Where did the day start? How did you get to the medical centre?

5 A. Well, every morning someone -- a driver came to fetch us. He was

6 a soldier, a policeman. His name was Luka Stojanovski. He would come

7 every morning and take a group of 30 to 40 people away to work.

8 Q. And where did he take you on that day?

9 A. On that day he took us to the command, to Mr. Stela. Two soldiers

10 came to fetch us, the group of prisoners, and they took us to work in the

11 medical centre area, down around Kontarevac, et cetera.

12 Q. Had you ever met Mr. Stela before?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Had you ever seen him before this day?

15 A. No, I hadn't.

16 Q. Had you ever gone to work in this area before, the area that you

17 described, the medical centre?

18 A. Yes. We went there quite often, almost every day for a two,

19 three-month period.

20 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, with the usher's assistance I'd like

21 to show the Witness Exhibit 14.4, which is a photograph. And for the

22 record, this will be 14.4/5. And Mr. President, I should inform you that

23 the previous two photographs that were used before the break are now

24 marked as 6.7/3 and 6.8/2.

25 Q. Witness, if you could take a look at that photograph and tell me

Page 15939

1 whether you recognise any of the areas that you've described in this

2 testimony about this particular day in August or July. You mentioned a

3 medical centre. Do you see that place in this photograph?

4 A. Yes, I can see it.

5 Q. Let's put the photograph on the ELMO. And then, Witness, if I

6 could just ask you to take the pointer that's in front of you, and I'm

7 going to ask you to first point out, if you can, the location of the

8 medical centre that you mentioned.

9 A. The medical centre was here, this complex. These buildings here

10 between the cross roads and the Bulevar, between the crossroad that

11 leads from the roundabout up there.

12 Q. Okay. Now, if I could ask the usher just if we could move the

13 photograph down in the direction toward the bottom so that we -- I'm

14 sorry. The opposite way. We want to see more of the top half of the

15 photograph. Yes. If we could just keep moving a little bit. That's

16 good. That's good. Okay.

17 Witness, do you recall what time of day you arrived in this area?

18 A. We arrived there about 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning. I can't

19 remember the exact time, but it was in the morning.

20 Q. How many prisoners arrived at that location?

21 A. There were about 40 prisoners.

22 Q. Can you point to the specific location, if you see it, where you

23 arrived and where you were first received at that location?

24 A. Yes. First of all, we arrived here and then went to this part,

25 and from this location we were sent to work in these schools. We would

Page 15940

1 dig trenches in the direction of the medical centre.

2 Q. And how long were you working in those areas that you've just

3 pointed to, digging trenches and whatnot?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

5 A. Well, we worked for about two to three months.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we be more

8 precise? Either the witness should mark this or write down the zone which

9 he indicated in a hesitant way with the pointer.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. Mr. Stringer, would you please give some

11 specific directions to this witness.

12 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. For the record, I can't agree

13 that there was any hesitation, but I think that's obviously for the Trial

14 Chamber to consider.

15 Q. Witness, taking perhaps the red marker, can you just perhaps draw

16 a line that would indicate the location of the trench or the trenches that

17 you were working on on this particular day after you arrived in this area?

18 A. Yes. I'll mark it on the entire photograph. I'll mark the

19 directions of our movement, if that isn't going to bother you.

20 We went in this direction, then we followed this route. We passed

21 through these two houses and continued down here, passed behind these

22 buildings, and then we passed through the building here, up until this

23 point, and then we have this part here.

24 Q. Okay. Now, moving from that work that you were performing on that

25 day, I want to bring you now to the burial of the body that you've

Page 15941

1 mentioned. Where were you when you first were tasked with burying a body

2 or being involved in the burial of a body?

3 A. The first time we buried a body, that was on the road by the

4 medical centre. We buried this body in Liska Park. And the other bodies,

5 we buried them after the action that took place on the 17th of September,

6 in the morning of the 18th, in the Miljkovici cemetery.

7 Q. Okay. I want to bring you back again to the Liska Park, and if

8 you could just tell us the story about that, from the very beginning.

9 Where were you when you first became involved in the burial of this body?

10 Where were you?

11 A. We were in front of the medical centre. We were carrying

12 sandbags, sealing the windows, and breaking through certain walls to make

13 it possible to pass from one room to another. This is the work we did all

14 the time, and whenever it was necessary.

15 Q. Who was in charge of you at that time?

16 A. Well, when we were taken to work, they would line us up in front

17 of the command, where Mr. Stela was, and then usually two soldiers would

18 appear to take us down to the line. And down at the line there was

19 someone called Ernest. He was mostly there. He was the person who was

20 in charge of us and of everything else.

21 Q. Did you have any dealings that day with Ernest in connection

22 with the burial of the body?

23 A. Nothing in particular, but first of all he lined all of us up, and

24 then he asked, "Is there anyone who is strong?" No one responded. No one

25 came forward. He then selected a man and asked him whether he could carry

Page 15942

1 50 kilos. He said, "I don't know, sir." He then ordered him to pick him

2 up, to try to carry him, and in fact this is what he did, and Ernest

3 then told him, "You see, you can carry 50 kilos. Why didn't you

4 respond?" He remained silent. Then he selected another person and took

5 him with him behind the medical centre.

6 Q. What happened -- where were you -- or where were you placed after

7 they went away behind the medical centre?

8 A. He returned again and shut the rest of us up in a garage next to a

9 house. That's where he shut us up, and he placed a soldier by the door to

10 make sure that no one came out.

11 Q. Okay. Now, when you say that he put you into this garage, who is

12 it who did that?

13 A. Ernest.

14 Q. Now, after you were in the garage, did he return then after that?

15 A. He returned, Ernest returned, and took three of us out. He took

16 us behind that garage. He took us to a garden. He gave us shovels too.

17 And there he said that we should dig a grave there.

18 Q. Now, Witness --

19 A. That we should dig a hole for the garbage there. Correction.

20 Q. Let me interrupt you there again Witness. Taking the marker, if

21 you're able to identify this spot on the photograph, can you place a

22 number 1 on the location where you were instructed to dig this hole for

23 the garbage.

24 A. That was somewhere here, in the garden.

25 Q. Did you place a number 1 there? Witness, could I ask you to put a

Page 15943

1 number 1 on that location? I can't see it on the screen.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Okay. So then after you were instructed to dig this hole, what

4 did you do?

5 A. Well, we were ordered to finish this in 15 minutes' time, which we

6 did. After some time had passed, these two inmates turned up and they

7 brought a corpse that we were to bury there.

8 Q. Which two inmates, now, just so that we're clear? Which two

9 inmates are you referring to?

10 A. I'm referring to the two men who had previously been taken away by

11 Ernest.

12 Q. Now, when they -- you say they brought a corpse. Do you know how

13 they -- how did they actually carry or bring the corpse to your location?

14 A. Well, they were holding the corpse by the arms and by the legs,

15 because there were only two of them, and the man was big; he weighed a

16 lot.

17 Q. Were they using anything else to carry the body, or was it -- were

18 they just simply carrying the body by itself?

19 A. As far as I can remember, there was some kind of a carpet, part of

20 a carpet, something like that.

21 Q. Do you know where they got this material that they were using to

22 carry the body?

23 A. I don't know. Ernest must have given it to them when they took

24 that blanket.

25 Q. Okay. We've gotten a couple of different words for this item.

Page 15944

1 Can you describe the thing that they were using to carry the body? Can

2 you describe that thing in greater detail, please.

3 A. Well, it was some kind of a blanket. It wasn't really very big.

4 There was perhaps half of a blanket. And they put the man on this

5 blanket, but they were pulling him rather than carrying him, in fact.

6 Q. Had you seen a blanket like this previously?

7 A. Well, there were a lot of blankets of that kind in the trenches,

8 in the dugouts that were used by the soldiers. They used them to cover

9 the trenches. And when it was cold, they would cover themselves with it.

10 Q. Do you know the source of those blankets, where they were

11 manufactured or who provided them?

12 A. Well, as far as I could see, these blankets were mostly delivered

13 by humanitarian organisations. They would distribute these blankets to

14 refugees, et cetera.

15 Q. Do you recall, if you can, the colour of the blanket?

16 A. Yes, I do. It wasn't entirely blue and it wasn't entirely black

17 either; it was something in between.

18 Q. Do you know where the other two prisoners had retrieved this

19 body? Where had the body been before they brought it to you?

20 A. I really didn't carry the body until they brought the body to us,

21 to that hole. They said that they had found the body in the street, near

22 the medical centre, and that Ernest had ordered them to take it down to

23 the crossroads of the Bulevar and then to take it back to where it was.

24 And then they took it to the hole where we were.

25 Q. Had you seen the body before, prior to that day?

Page 15945

1 A. No, I hadn't.

2 Q. Looking at photograph -- the photograph there that's next to you,

3 14.4, are you able to point to the locations where the body had been

4 retrieved before it was brought to you?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

6 A. I really didn't carry the body.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Although you said that you would allow

9 suggestions, this is really ridiculous, because the witness has just said

10 that he hadn't seen where the witness was before that.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. STRINGER: Let me clarify it, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could rephrase your question.


15 Q. Witness, did you learn from the other two prisoners where they had

16 gone to retrieve the body?

17 A. Yes, I did. They said that they had retrieved it from a spot

18 across the road from the medical centre. He was -- the body was in the

19 street, and Ernest ordered them to take it down to crossroads, to the

20 Bulevar. This is what they did, and they returned the body again.

21 Q. Why did they have to take it down to the crossroads before

22 bringing it back to you?

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor is attempting something

Page 15946

1 that isn't allowed again. He is asking the witness to speculate about

2 what other people were thinking and about what they were supposed to do.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, because, you know, the Prosecutor asked the

4 question. Did you learn from the other prisoners where they had gone to

5 retrieve the body? This is somehow hearsay evidence. I agree with you in

6 this aspect, but in the proceedings the hearsay evidence is allowed. The

7 question is how much weight we put on those pieces of evidence.

8 Mr. Stringer, you may continue, and bear in mind that it is not

9 the first-hand evidence.

10 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.

11 Q. Did you -- Witness, did you learn from the others, from the other

12 two prisoners, the reason why they had to move the body or carry it down

13 toward the Bulevar before moving it back toward your position?

14 A. Well, in fact they took the body down there because the BH Army

15 was across the road, and this was supposedly to show them that a man had

16 been killed and that we were then going back.

17 Q. Did you learn on that day, or subsequently, the reason why this

18 body was being removed from this area in front of the health centre?

19 A. Well, after all of this, when we had finished with the digging, a

20 soldier appeared, who didn't allow the body to be buried there. He said

21 that it would be an obstacle to people passing through.

22 Q. Witness, my question was a bit different. Did you learn on that

23 day, or did you learn later, the reason why the body was removed from the

24 confrontation area? Why was it removed versus just allowing it to stay

25 there, if you know?

Page 15947

1 A. Actually, we didn't know why it was being removed, but after a

2 certain period of time, Mr. Stela came and ordered Ernest to clean

3 everything, and I thought that he was implying that garbage or rubbish be

4 cleaned.

5 Q. Coming back, then, to the arrival of the body at this location

6 where you had dug the hole, or the grave: What was the condition of the

7 body generally when they brought it to you?

8 A. The body was very badly damaged in the area of the head and in the

9 area of the chest and in the area of the stomach.

10 Q. Had the body been -- had this person recently died, or are you

11 able to give some indication whether this had been a dead person for a

12 matter of minutes, hours, days?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] This witness is not a doctor, as far

15 as I understand, and I don't think he is able to estimate the time when

16 the person died.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, of course this witness is not a doctor, but the

18 Prosecutor was not going to ask about medical opinions. He just asked the

19 impression, because this witness saw that body himself.

20 You may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

21 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Witness, can you answer my last question? Just a general idea:

23 Is this someone who had just died or had this person been dead for longer?

24 A. It seemed to me that the body had been dead for a while. There

25 was a terrible stench around it. You couldn't be around the body for a

Page 15948

1 long time.

2 Q. Now, you mentioned already -- maybe I should just ask you again.

3 Can you give us a general idea the size or the dimensions of this body,

4 and also the sex of this person, if it's not already clear.

5 A. It was the body of a big man, a heavy man, who weighed over a

6 hundred kilos. It was a well-developed man.

7 Q. Are you able to recall any of the clothing that was on the body

8 when it was brought to you?

9 A. As far as I can remember, he had a pair of trousers on, a summer

10 T-shirt, and he had a shoe on one foot, but on the other foot he didn't

11 have a shoe; he was barefoot.

12 Q. Can you give any more detail about the trousers, what type of

13 trousers, the colour, if you recall?

14 A. The trousers looked like a pair of blue jeans. The T-shirt was

15 white, made of cotton, I would say.

16 Q. And what about the shoe? Can you recall what the shoe looked

17 like?

18 A. I can't remember the shoe well, but it looked like a sports shoe

19 of some sort.

20 Q. Now, they arrived with this body. Was the body then buried in

21 this location that you've marked with the number 1?

22 A. No. We didn't bury him there. A soldier came and told us not to

23 bury him there because it would hinder the passage, so we took the body,

24 we carried him through a very narrow passage, over a fence, and

25 transported him to Liska Park.

Page 15949

1 Q. Was it necessary to dig a grave at Liska Park?

2 A. No, because there were some holes there already that had been dug

3 out before.

4 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of day it was when the body

5 was buried in Liska Park?

6 A. It was around 1.00 in the afternoon.

7 Q. Witness, do you know the name of the person, or did you ever hear

8 the name of the person that you buried in Liska Park that day?

9 A. No, I didn't know the person's name, nor had I ever seen him while

10 he was alive.

11 Q. Did you ever subsequently learn anything about this body that you

12 had buried in Liska Park?

13 A. Yes, I did. I was talking with some people who were detained with

14 me, the people from Mostar, and based on my description, they were able to

15 tell us that the guy was from Mostar, that before the war he was employed

16 with the police.

17 Q. When did you have this conversation with those other detainees?

18 A. We had this conversation on the same evening, when we returned

19 from work.

20 Q. Witness, did you ever learn later, after the war, whether this

21 body was exhumed from the Liska Park?

22 A. Yes. The body was exhumed and properly buried somewhere else, in

23 another appropriate place.

24 Q. I should have asked you also: Are you able to give us any idea of

25 the location within Liska Park in which this body was buried?

Page 15950

1 A. As far as I can remember, the row was number 1, or the first row,

2 and I can't give you the exact location. It's been -- it was a long time

3 ago. I had it on a piece of paper. That piece of paper I handed over to

4 the exhumation team, who were waiting for me in a room before the

5 exhumation took place.

6 Q. You say, as far as you recall, it was in the first row. That's

7 the first row in relation -- can you give us a reference point?, perhaps

8 the wall or the hedge are you able to give us a reference point for the

9 row? Where was it in relation to perhaps the street or the wall that you

10 crossed?

11 A. In relation to the street, it was the last row towards the garden,

12 called Kontarevac.

13 MR. STRINGER: If I could have just a brief moment,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Stringer, while you're waiting for what's being

16 given to you, I have a recollection that I asked you at some stage for a

17 map of the relevant part of Mostar, showing the streets and so on. And

18 when I looked up my notes, I couldn't find that you actually furnished us

19 with a map, and it would be a map indicating all the relevant points that

20 are pertinent to this evidence. I don't want to say anything, but ... and

21 I thought you promised to produce some sort of a street map. Did I mislay

22 it or did you forget?

23 MR. STRINGER: I probably forgot. I know that there is one Mostar

24 street map in evidence, which is the 11.18, which has been used a lot,

25 that shows the broader area of town. I am now going to show the witness

Page 15951

1 what's been marked as Exhibit P12, which is a map that zeros in on the

2 area that more closely relate to this particular issue. Frankly, I don't

3 know whether we've actually used it with any other witnesses. But in any

4 event, with the Trial Chamber's permission, we can show it to the witness

5 now.


7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I could assist

8 with this issue, the issue of the map of Mostar has been raised on a

9 number of occasions, Your Honours. I have furnished you with the only

10 good map, the only correct map. It is big, but it is the only integral

11 part of Mostar. I have been provided with that map by the cadastre of

12 Mostar. You have it, and the Prosecution must have it too. That is just

13 for your information, perhaps to assist you with the issue of the map of

14 Mostar.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Krsnik. I think at this

16 moment we have to examine that map P12 first and to see whether it's

17 suitable for this case or not.

18 MR. STRINGER: We can put that on the ELMO.

19 Q. Witness, if you could just take a look at this map, and take a

20 moment to familiarise yourself with it. Are you able to get oriented?

21 Are you able to place some of the various locations that you've been

22 describing so far on this map?

23 A. Yes, I can.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you will allow me.

25 Everything is spelled out in this map. It spells out Liska Park, the

Page 15952

1 names of the streets. Maybe my learned friend could provide the witness

2 with a map without any names. I mean, why is he asking him to locate

3 things which are so clearly marked by their names in this map?

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think there's only one park called Liska Park

5 in Mostar, and maybe the Prosecutor would like the witness to indicate

6 where is the first row. I don't know. Let Mr. Stringer try in this

7 direction.

8 MR. STRINGER: I didn't know if the Defence is intending to

9 challenge or to dispute the location of Liska Park in the city of Mostar.

10 They've had this map and others for many months.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes, through this

12 witness, yes. This witness should be able to locate Liska Park without

13 your help, without you providing him with a map with all the names. This

14 witness is not from Mostar. It would be much more credible if this

15 witness was able to locate Liska Park without this being served on the

16 platter to him. It would be much more credible if we could have that.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, shall we first withdraw that map from the ELMO

18 first.

19 Mr. Stringer, at the request of the Defence counsel, would you

20 please ask some questions to this witness about the location of that park.


22 Q. Witness, let's go back to Exhibit P4, which is the photograph.

23 And while that's being prepared, because the issue has been raised, let me

24 ask you a couple of preliminary questions.

25 Looking at photograph P4, if you arrived in the Heliodrom in early

Page 15953

1 June 1993, how many times did you work in this location before the date

2 that you've been talking about?

3 A. I worked there on many occasions, quite a number of occasions, as

4 a matter of fact, not only for one day, but for a few months.

5 Q. How frequently were you taken to this area prior to the date when

6 you buried the body?

7 A. We were taken there on several occasions prior to this event.

8 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, one question in private session, if

9 I may.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15954

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]


9 Q. Based on your knowledge of Mostar, Witness, the place you know as

10 Liska Park, is that the place where you buried the body that you've been

11 talking about?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Now, if we could go back to Exhibit P12. Before, let me -- excuse

14 me. Witness, just looking at Exhibit P14.4, the photograph, can you take

15 the pointer and just give us generally an indication of the location of

16 Liska Park in respect of this photograph?

17 A. I don't have to make any markings, do I?

18 Q. Not yet. Just use the pointer for now.

19 A. It is here.

20 Q. And then finally, if you could take the marker, the red marker,

21 and trace the path that you followed when you moved the body from location

22 number 1 to the location where it was eventually buried.

23 A. [Marks] We went behind a house and behind the garage, where we had

24 been closed. It was very narrow. It was a hedge and there was also an

25 iron fence over which we had to carry the body.

Page 15955

1 Q. Now, going back to the map, P12 --

2 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Stringer. Again, this brings me back to

3 the query that I raised many months ago. In that photograph, the aerial

4 photograph there, where -- or how far is the point in Liska Park from,

5 this gentleman says, the garage and where they were locked in? Where is

6 that in relation to the building that we've referred to as the

7 headquarters?

8 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness, you've heard Judge Clark's inquiry. First let me ask you

10 about the headquarters. If you know and if you were present at the

11 headquarters of Stela.

12 A. Yes, I was there.

13 Q. Where was that place located?

14 A. That place was close to the Rondo, or there exactly. I did not

15 walk through Mostar a lot before the war. I became much more acquainted

16 with Mostar when I was detained. Before that, I was just a passerby.

17 Q. Looking at the photo 14.4, can you give us an indication of the

18 location of the headquarters or the location where it would be on this

19 photograph?

20 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Stringer, the reason I asked the question is the

21 witness referred to a garage, and it's because we want to pinpoint, you

22 see. This word has been used a few times.

23 MR. STRINGER: I understand, Judge Clark. I hadn't understood.

24 Q. Witness, you spoke about a garage where you and the others were

25 locked in before you were taken out to dig the first grave.

Page 15956

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you see the location of that garage on this photograph, 14.4?

3 A. Yes, I can see the spot, but I can't see the entire garage. Maybe

4 just a little part of it. But in any case, you can't see the whole of

5 it. It was much lower than any of the surrounding houses, and there were

6 trees around it, so you couldn't see it.

7 Q. Could you take the marker, please, and put a number 2 at the

8 location of the garage that you were locked in with the others.

9 A. Yes. [Marks] It is here.

10 Q. Witness, what was the distance, if you recall, between that garage

11 and the location of Stela's headquarters?

12 A. It was quite far from it.

13 Q. Was any kind of work going on in the garage, that you could tell?

14 Was it used for any specific purpose?

15 A. No. It was empty. The garage belonged to a man who didn't live

16 there, who abandoned his house during the previous combat actions.

17 MR. STRINGER: Judge Clark, I think I've asked my questions on

18 that.

19 Q. Now, Witness, going back to my map, that was P12, if you could

20 find Liska Park on the map and place a mark, an "X," at the location where

21 this body was buried, to the best of your recollection.

22 A. Yes. Okay. [Marks] It was the last row. I can't remember the

23 number. I'm afraid I've forgotten.

24 Q. Can you make a line that would indicate the direction of the row

25 that you've described?

Page 15957

1 A. Yes, I can. [Marks]

2 Q. Witness, you mentioned the exhumation. Were you present in Liska

3 Park when the exhumation took place?

4 A. No, I wasn't present. I waited in the office.

5 Q. Did you have any opportunity to look at the body that was exhumed

6 in order to compare it or to perhaps consider whether it was the same body

7 that you had buried?

8 A. No, I didn't see it. I believe that the man's son was present

9 there, and he was the one who identified the body.

10 Q. Was your presence at the exhumation, was it related to other

11 bodies that were being exhumed and possibly identified?

12 A. No. On that day I was there just for that particular man.

13 MR. STRINGER: I've concluded with that topic, Mr. President, and

14 can now move to the final one, which will only take a few minutes, which

15 relates to the new matter that was raised over the weekend. And for that

16 I'm going to ask the witness to be shown P928.5. Does the Trial Chamber

17 have that? I want to --

18 JUDGE LIU: I don't think so.

19 MR. STRINGER: It's a new exhibit. It's an excerpt from another

20 exhibit that's previously been marked. Counsel have been provided with

21 the exhibit over the weekend, although it doesn't have the exhibit number

22 on it. But I can show them mine. It's the same materials that were faxed

23 to them over the weekend, and --

24 JUDGE LIU: Do you have extra copies for us?

25 MR. STRINGER: I believe we do, or we ...

Page 15958

1 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Stringer and Mr. Seric and Mr. Par, could --

2 while we're looking for this, could I ask - and I don't want to take over

3 your cross-examination - I'm not clear of various locations that are

4 referred to by this witness at all. I want to know where the prisoners

5 were brought every day, where they were lined up, and on this particular

6 day, where the line-up where the volunteers who were strong enough to

7 carry 50 kilos were sorted. It's not at all clear. It may be clear to

8 you and it may be clear to others, but it's not at all clear to me. And

9 if the ask the questions now, then Mr. Seric and Mr. Par can direct their

10 cross-examination along those lines rather than at the end of Judges'

11 questions, which is sometimes when time is short. Thank you.

12 Do you have any objection, Mr. Seric, to those questions being put

13 by the Prosecution, or would you prefer to put them yourself.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would prefer to put

15 those questions myself, and I have planned to put these questions in the

16 course of my cross-examination. And after I have put these questions, you

17 will have the opportunity of asking them if I don't cover everything. But

18 I do believe that I will be quite precise.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

20 MR. STRINGER: In fact, if it would make it easier, I think the

21 Judges will want to see the exhibit. I've got mine that I can provide to

22 the witness. It's in the binder. And this is 928/5.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much. We have it already. You

24 may proceed, Mr. Stringer.


Page 15959

1 Q. Witness, a document is being shown to you. It's in -- there's a

2 translation in English. There's also a typewritten version that is in

3 your language. And I want to direct you to that part of it that's in your

4 language. This relates to entries that appear below the date of the 25th

5 of January, 1993. Witness, I'm not going to ask you if you recognise

6 this -- well, I will ask you. Do you recognise this document? Had you

7 ever seen this before?

8 A. No, I haven't.

9 Q. If you could just take a moment to read the words there that

10 appear for the 25th of January, approximately the first -- or the top half

11 of that page. I'm just going to ask you one or two questions about that.

12 A. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, now --

14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if we could go into private session

15 for these last few questions, please.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15960

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Seric.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I have understood

23 you correctly, you decided, this morning, to allow us to cross-examine the

24 witness tomorrow.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, I said that because we have some new documents

Page 15961

1 introduced in the rebuttal proceedings, that is the testimony of this

2 witness on the diary. I think this part will be conducted tomorrow. If

3 you are prepared to cross-examine on other issues, you may do it right

4 now.

5 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, obviously we are

7 prepared for the cross-examination, the parts of the cross-examination,

8 but it's very difficult for me to cross-examine on a partial basis. I

9 would rather reflect on all of this, because it's difficult for me to

10 conduct a cross-examination which is only partial. We have asked you not

11 to introduce new documents. I can't cross-examine with regard to one

12 aspect and with regard to other aspects tomorrow, because I want my

13 cross-examination to be presented as a whole, for your sake and for my

14 sake too.

15 In addition, I want to make photocopies that I will be presenting,

16 et cetera. You know, this issue is not a minor one. This is a major

17 subject. And I also want to present certain things, photocopy certain

18 things, have all the necessary copies for you, et cetera. And the

19 photocopier wasn't working today, unfortunately. And I would like to say

20 that it's very important, it's an integral part of the proceedings,

21 whenever the Prosecutor said that he was not prepared, you always allowed

22 him extra time to delay his examination, and especially when rebuttal is

23 concerned, and when we received new evidence on Saturday, and that was

24 yesterday. We received that on Saturday afternoon. And this addresses an

25 entire new field which I have to check out, and I want my

Page 15962

1 cross-examination to be presented as a whole.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

3 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, as we previously informed the Trial

4 Chamber this morning, because of other difficulties we've encountered with

5 other witnesses, we're not in a position to proceed further today. We're

6 going to have difficulties, therefore, trying to -- if we -- it's our

7 submission that if we suspend the proceedings today to enable counsel to

8 prepare again cross-examinations, it's going to cause difficulties for the

9 remainder of what's a pretty rigorous rebuttal schedule. Certainly the

10 testimony and the evidence in respect of issues of relevance to Mr. Krsnik

11 are of no surprise to him in respect of Sovici, Doljani, and it's our

12 submission that the same holds true for the witness's testimony about the

13 events in Mostar and the burial. We would have no objection if the Trial

14 Chamber wanted to take a break now for lunch, come back this afternoon, so

15 that Mr. Krsnik could perhaps do his photocopying over the lunch hour, but

16 that we conclude the cross-examination today regarding the two central

17 issues of this testimony, and then come back tomorrow for any short cross

18 that's required in respect of the diary issue.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well -- yes, Mr. Krsnik. I give you one minute,

20 because I have heard you already.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'll be even briefer. Your Honours,

22 as far as we know, there is only one other witness and there aren't any

23 others. I don't know what the Prosecutor is speaking about. And

24 secondly, this was quite a surprise for us, because I would have prepared

25 for this new proposal, which I only received yesterday, Mr. President. So

Page 15963

1 that was a real surprise for me. And this does not respect your order. I

2 went out into the field and I was bearing your order in mind, and the

3 Prosecutor is quite clear about this. I'm clear about this, and you too.

4 Your order is very clear, your order which refers to how the examination

5 shall proceed, and not to the contents.

6 JUDGE LIU: May I ask the question how long your cross-examination

7 will last?

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I couldn't say off the top of my

9 head, but it will take as long as the examination-in-chief, that's for

10 sure, at least as long as that. The examination-in-chief took about an

11 hour and a half, so it will take at least the amount of time that was

12 taken by the examination-in-chief.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I wanted to say

15 that your order still stands, and that relates to hearing the three

16 witnesses. And as we have heard that one witness will not be coming,

17 there is only one other witness, and three days have been set aside for

18 this. So I really don't see why the Prosecutor should say that we're

19 going to hinder him in some way if we finish with this witness tomorrow

20 and we hear the other witness within the time limit that has been set out

21 in your order, Mr. President. And if there is some other order,

22 Mr. President, I would like to hear about that, and then we could take

23 that into consideration.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, after the consultation with my colleagues in the

Page 15964

1 Bench, I have to say that, first of all, that we have no time to lose,

2 although we have very few witnesses for the rebuttal procedures for this

3 week. Secondly, that we imagined that some new elements come up

4 concerning the diary, and I promised the Defence counsel to do their

5 cross-examination on that part tomorrow. Thirdly, all the Judges

6 sympathise with the Defence position that they want to do their

7 cross-examination in a consistent sequence, so we have decided not to

8 allow the Defence counsel to do their cross-examination today. We are

9 arranging it for tomorrow. So tomorrow morning Mr. Krsnik will conduct

10 his cross-examination, and after that, Mr. Seric will do that too. It is

11 so decided on that issue.

12 Mr. Par.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before we leave the

14 courtroom -- I don't know. Perhaps the witness should leave, but perhaps

15 it doesn't matter. I could briefly say what I have to say.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

17 MR. STRINGER: Well, perhaps, Mr. President, if we could excuse

18 the witness.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. STRINGER: That would be our request.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you could warn him,

23 as is the case with all the other witnesses, I would be grateful.

24 JUDGE LIU: Of course.

25 Witness, I'm afraid we have to keep you in The Hague for another

Page 15965

1 day because we haven't finished the cross-examination. So during your

2 stay in The Hague, you are still under the oath, so please do not talk to

3 anybody about your testimony and do not let anybody talk to you about it.

4 Do you understand that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. When the blinds are pulled down,

7 Madam Usher will show you out of the room.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE LIU: Microphone, please.

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I want to present Mr. Martinovic's

13 counsel's position before the Chamber decides on calling the witness,

14 perhaps calling the witness, Apolonia Bos. This Defence counsel, when we

15 received additional reports and documents and proposals from the

16 Prosecutor a few days ago, this counsel asked to be allowed to

17 cross-examine the Witness Bos. That was when a decision had been taken

18 that the witness, whom we have called Witness C, was going to testify, and

19 there is a certain logic to this. It was logical to have this witness

20 appear and to see how this evidence had been produced with regard to the

21 wooden rifle, which Witness C was to identify. Today we have heard from

22 Mr. Scott that Witness C will not be appearing, and this changes this

23 counsel's position with regard to Witness Apolonia Bos. In such a

24 situation in which we don't have a witness who is supposed to identify

25 certain evidence, we think that it is not adequate for the Prosecutor in

Page 15966

1 such a case, and the Prosecutor has nothing to discuss. So our position

2 is that the Prosecutor's proposal to hear Witness Bos is not acceptable,

3 nor is it acceptable for that wooden rifle to be presented here, because

4 we do not have a competent witness who might be able to testify with

5 regard to how this was authorised by the Trial Chamber.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, you have to remember that this Trial

7 Chamber also arrived at the production of that wooden rifle itself

8 during our proceedings. Let us hear what Mr. Scott is going to tell us.

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, we only have a few minutes, but I want

10 to respond, I think now, after waiting all morning, to what was said, and

11 then specifically in connection with the rifle.

12 Mr. President, the Prosecution categorically rejects the many

13 attacks that were levelled at the Prosecution team this morning. We

14 categorically reject those. They're absolutely baseless. We have

15 complied with every ruling of this Chamber during the trial, and certainly

16 the past few weeks. The disclosure practices are those that we have

17 followed throughout the trial, that the Chamber is well familiar with, and

18 that is exactly what we have done. Nothing has been different than what

19 the Chamber has approved in the past.

20 The Prosecution will present, or at least until now we were

21 hopeful that we would present, the rebuttal case within the time provided

22 by the Chamber, that is, through Wednesday. We remain guardedly hopeful

23 that, despite the fact of cross-examination being postponed, which we

24 believe is not justified, except for the very, very small, very, very

25 small portion that had to do with that new evidence, probably about 5 per

Page 15967

1 cent of the total testimony. Nonetheless, the Chamber certainly ruled,

2 but we hope to still finish by Wednesday afternoon, even though we are now

3 losing at least half a day. The Prosecution presented it -- the evidence

4 that was properly noticed. We said in our original filing that

5 we -- these were the fact witnesses, if you will, that we anticipated

6 calling, and we said in our filing at that time - and no one said anything

7 to the contrary, no one brought it to our attention that it would be a

8 problem - we said at the time that we anticipated some additional

9 witnesses dealing with factual -- the foundations for evidence. And I'm

10 sorry. I've misplaced my one document. If the Chamber will allow me.

11 We said, Your Honour, and I'm quoting from our original filing on

12 rebuttal some weeks ago:

13 "In addition to these witnesses, the Prosecutor will tender a

14 number of exhibits as part of its rebuttal case. In connection with

15 offering various exhibits, it may be necessary or appropriate for the

16 Prosecution to call one or more witnesses concerning the provenance or

17 background of the exhibits, or some of them."

18 There was no indication from anyone, frankly, from the Chamber or

19 from the Defence counsel, or anyone, that that was not -- it was not fully

20 contemplated that the Prosecution would tender exhibits, documentary

21 evidence, as part of its rebuttal case. The Chamber has, as you know,

22 indicated on several occasions that they would prefer to have -- to

23 receive exhibits through a witness; therefore, we propose to call

24 witnesses to do just that.

25 Neither Ms. Bos nor Mr. Prelec are factual witnesses in the sense

Page 15968

1 of talking about something that happened in Sovici or something that

2 happened in Mostar. They are -- both of their testimonies go to the

3 production of documents or exhibits which the Chamber is familiar with,

4 and indeed the Chamber -- Mr. President, you said just a few moments ago

5 that it was the President -- it was the Chamber - excuse me - that ordered

6 the production of the wooden rifle and it was the Chamber that ordered us

7 to give the explanation of how the Prosecution came into possession of the

8 rifle.

9 Ms. Bos is, in our opinion, in a position to do that. Likewise,

10 Mr. Prelec is in a position to authenticate a number of exhibits that

11 we will tender as part of the rebuttal case. For example, for example,

12 the Chamber will recall that a particular Defence witness -- are we in

13 private session, Mr. President? Out of an abundance of caution, and so we

14 can move as quickly as possible, Mr. President, could we go into private

15 session for a moment?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session. But bear in

17 mind we only have a few minutes left.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15969













13 Page 15969 redacted private session













Page 15970













13 Page 15970 redacted private session













Page 15971













13 Page 15971 redacted private session













Page 15972

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.02 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of October,

5 2002, at 9.30 a.m.