1 Thursday, 21 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Registrar, good morning to you. Could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T, The Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir.

10 Mr. Oric, the usual question which, however, is meant to ensure

11 that your rights are protected. Can you follow the proceedings in a

12 language that you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours and

14 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow this in my mother tongue.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you, too. You may

16 sit down.

17 Appearances for the Prosecution.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

19 senior trial attorney, together with co-counsels Ms. Patricia Sellers,

20 Ms. Joanne Richardson, and as case manager Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Appearances for the Defence.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name

23 is Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones I represent the

24 Defence of Mr. Naser Oric. Together with us is Ms. Jasmina Cosic, our

25 legal assistant, and Mr. Geoff Roberts, our CaseMap manager.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

2 and the rest of your team.

3 Mr. Wubben.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, only the issue you raised yourself

5 regarding the map a few days ago. There is a wish raised, and we

6 monitored that, for a kind of map to be used by the parties, including the

7 Court, of course. And if you want so, I will update you of our findings.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

9 MR. WUBBEN: The map is available, but whenever it becomes

10 detailed, there is this problem of the area, the whole area that covers

11 the indictment. It is the western part of the region that falls apart

12 when it comes to a scale of 1 to 25.000, meaning in short if the Court

13 likes the most detailed map covering most of the hamlets, and of course

14 the villages, but mostly the hamlets, we are more or less obliged to make

15 use of two maps instead of one map.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a problem.

17 MR. WUBBEN: And I learned that it is the wish of the Court to see

18 as much hamlets --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

20 MR. WUBBEN: -- as possible to clearly use it during the trial.

21 And then we will provide the Court and of course Defence and use our own

22 coloured map, highlighting then the places in the indictment. I don't

23 know how fast the service can be over -- the mapping unit of the Tribunal,

24 but we'll see to it that it will be done quickly.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I would imagine you also have the whole

1 system digitalised, no?

2 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine so, which I have used in my country.

4 Anyway, I think -- I'm sure that you have done your level best, and that

5 you will be providing us with the best that is available. I have no doubt

6 about that. And that makes us happy. And I suppose that on the part of

7 the Defence, does that make you happy, too?

8 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

10 Anything else?

11 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, with a view to the coming witness, Your Honour,

12 you might wish to update yourself of her specific health situation.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need to stay in public on this, or shall we go

14 for a little while in private?

15 MR. WUBBEN: My request is that you do it in private session and

16 ask her about it, and the circumstances, and also the need for perhaps a

17 break not after one hour and a half but after an hour, but you Your Honour

18 can observe that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Not a problem with us, for sure. We have sort of

20 been forewarned on this, and we will deal with the issue -- play it by

21 ear.

22 Incidentally, you all know that on Monday, Monday is a UN holiday,

23 and we will not be sitting. I want you to be aware of that.

24 All right. Yes, Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: There is one matter, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MR. JONES: I know my colleague had a brief word with Mr. Wubben

3 on this subject this morning.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon? We are still in public, yeah. Stay in

5 public.

6 MR. JONES: We want to express our concern to have a definitive

7 witness list for the coming weeks so that we can naturally prepare for

8 next week and the following week, and indeed during the break in November

9 so that we can make good use of that time.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

11 MR. JONES: We definitely need to receive --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, once you have brought this matter up,

13 we will be insisting on the Prosecution to do that. But also we have met

14 with our staff, and we have a whole programme of things to be done during

15 the days when we will not be sitting because of my absence from the

16 Tribunal. And it will -- those days will be -- should be very profitable,

17 in fact. I mean, you will get the details from our staff, both of you,

18 and you would also know what we require of you to be done or to do in the

19 course of those two weeks. Okay?

20 MR. JONES: Okay. I'm obliged, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Wubben?

22 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, with a view to scheduling of the

23 witnesses, it's of course of importance how the response will be to the

24 motions regarding 92 bis and of course our possibility on organising the

25 videolink. What I would -- would like to suggest is that we file tomorrow

1 our list for up to the 2nd of November, and then as soon as possible the

2 week after, our projections for the week after the break.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Incidentally I can inform you that this

4 morning we concluded our deliberations on the Prosecution motion for the

5 issuance of a subpoena testificandum against Witness C002, if I remember

6 well. Of course, that will be handed down in writing because that has to

7 precede a proper subpoena. We can inform you that we have -- we will be

8 granting the motion. So you can take that witness into consideration as

9 well in the scheduling of your witness list.

10 This morning, I signed the decision, the oral -- the verbal --

11 sorry, the written version of the oral decision on the guidelines, so that

12 is available formally. And I think we should be also in a position today,

13 if it's given to us for the last verification, our decision on the motion

14 for protective measures, Prosecution Motion for protective (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted) Registrar. The name of that gentleman needs to be redacted.

18 And that should be signed today. If it's not signed today, it's

19 signed tomorrow. We have again reached a unanimous decision on that as

20 well. But as we had promised you, it will be done in writing rather than

21 verbal.

22 So let's bring the witness in. And as soon as she has sat down,

23 Registrar, after she has sat down, I will need to explain a few things to

24 her. And then we go a little bit in private session.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.

2 Good morning, Madam. I want to make sure, since -- as I am

3 speaking in English, I want to make sure that what I am saying and what

4 will be said inside this courtroom as we go along this morning is being

5 translated to you in your own language. So please tell me if you are

6 receiving interpretation in your own language.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning to you. And welcome to this

9 Tribunal. I am the Presiding Judge. My name is Carmel Agius, and I come

10 from the island of Malta, not far away from where you live. To my right,

11 Judge Brydensholt Denmark, from the kingdom of Denmark, and to my left I

12 have Judge Eser from Germany. We are presiding over this trial, and you

13 are one of the witnesses in this trial. We will try to make your life as

14 easy as possible. I will make sure, together with the two Judges, that

15 you will be treated as nicely as possible and that you will feel as

16 comfortable as possible while you are giving evidence. So you don't need

17 to worry. I want you to feel very relaxed. And I am going to explain to

18 you a few things before we start with your testimony.

19 First of all, although you have been brought here as a witness by

20 the Prosecution, you are now, that you are sitting there, a witness of

21 this Tribunal, a witness of this Court. And your duty is to speak the

22 truth, to say the truth, and to say the truth -- answer the truth to every

23 question that is put to you, whether it is put to you by the officer from

24 the Prosecution or whether it is being put to you by Defence counsel. You

25 are old enough and intelligent enough to know that every accused has a

1 right to be represented. And the lawyers representing the accused have a

2 duty to defend their client. So they will be asking you questions, too.

3 And you have a duty to answer those questions fully and truthfully.

4 Now before we proceed any further, our regulations, our Rules

5 require that you make a solemn declaration. It's like taking an oath.

6 And in this solemn declaration --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' note: Will the witness please

8 speak up or move closer to the microphone.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, our Rules require you to enter a solemn

10 declaration. And the text of the solemn declaration is contained in a

11 piece of paper that Madam standing next to you is going to hand to you.

12 Please stand up. Read that text aloud.

13 What I need now is one of the interpreters, do you have a copy of

14 the text?

15 I am going to read it out, Madam. One of the ladies who is in the

16 interpreters' booth will be translating what I will be saying, and please,

17 you repeat the same words. And that will be your solemn undertaking. Do

18 you understand me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I solemnly declare.

21 You need to come near the microphone because the interpreters

22 cannot hear you. I am going to repeat, because I need to hear you make

23 the statement, too. I solemnly declare.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare to tell whatever

25 I know and whatever I don't know, I cannot tell.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Just repeat the words that the interpreters will

2 tell you. Just those, don't add words of your own. I'm going to start

3 again.

4 I solemnly declare.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell

6 you whatever I know and whatever I don't know, I can't tell you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: When I speak, the interpreters translate my own

8 words to you. It's only two or three words. The first part of the

9 statement. I don't want you to make a statement of your own. I want you

10 to repeat the words that the interpreters -- you will hear the

11 interpreters tell you. I am going to start again.

12 I solemnly declare.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: That I will speak the truth.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The whole truth.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And nothing but the truth.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, I thank you.

21 Let's go into private session for a while. You may sit down,

22 please.

23 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And now we are in open session. From now onwards,

15 you can -- your words will be heard and my words will be heard and the

16 words of everyone else will be heard. We are no longer in private session

17 now.

18 You will first be asked a number of questions by Mr. Wubben. I

19 suppose you have Mr. Wubben already before. And when he finishes, I think

20 Mr. Jones -- Mr. Jones will ask you, who is appearing for Mr. Oric, will

21 ask you a few questions. And then when we finish, that will be over, your

22 ordeal will be over, and you can back home. And we will give you all the

23 assistance that you need so that you arrive home safe and sound. Okay?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

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1 Mr. Wubben.

2 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 WITNESS: MILENIJA MITROVIC

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Mr. Wubben:

6 Q. Good morning, Witness.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. I have a couple of questions to you to ask. Let me start with the

9 first question. Your name is Milenija Mitrovic, and you were born the

10 10th of September 1949?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And your ethnic origin is Serb? And your current occupation is

13 housewife?

14 MR. WUBBEN: I look at the transcript, Your Honour, whether or not

15 her answers had been on the transcript.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Mitrovic, if you move nearer to the mic, to

17 the microphone, move as near as you can and speak a little bit louder so

18 that the interpreters can hear. Because what happens here is that when I

19 speak in English, the interpreters translate into your language. When you

20 speak in Serbian, the translators will have to translate to us into

21 English. So they need to hear you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only speak Serbian. I don't

23 speak English.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So speak out when you answer the questions.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only speak Serbian. I can't

1 speak English.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's good. Thank you.

3 Mr. Wubben.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. I would like to ask you, Witness, a question regarding the year

6 1992. And let me take you back to the time after the war started in April

7 1992. After April 1992, in that year, did you live in the hamlet of

8 Kusici?

9 A. Yes, I did. Yes, Your Honours.

10 Q. Now, the hamlet was surrounded by more hamlets?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was that part of a village? What village?

13 A. There were the Serbian villages and the mixed villages. Kusici.

14 Q. Let me ask you a question about the village. Was this village

15 mentioned Zabokvica village?

16 A. Zabokvica, Resavici, Dobrak.

17 Q. And what part of what municipality? What was the name of the

18 municipality?

19 A. It was the Srebrenica Municipality.

20 Q. Where you lived was the hamlet of Kusici, as you stated. And I

21 reiterate that. The Zabokvica, was that --

22 A. Kusici, yes.

23 Q. -- was part of --

24 A. There was Zabokvica, and there was the village of Kusici.

25 Q. And the Municipality of Skelani?

1 A. Yes, Skelani.

2 Q. Was Skelani -- was your hamlet part of the Municipality of Skelani

3 or Srebrenica?

4 A. As far as I know, it was part of the Srebrenica Municipality.

5 There was no Skelani Municipality.

6 Q. The village of Skelani was in the neighbourhood of your hamlet?

7 A. No. No, it wasn't. We are far away from Skelani.

8 Q. In the year 1992 --

9 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, if you allow to lead the questions by me

10 now.

11 Q. In your statement, you confirmed that --

12 MR. JONES: Your Honour, sorry. It's a matter which I was hoping

13 Your Honour might consider our position as far as leading is concerned.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

15 MR. JONES: We would be opposed to leading this witness through

16 her evidence, through any of the controversial parts of it in any event.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Controversial, obvious, but the rest usually we

18 allow both parties to lead as much as possible if it speeds up the

19 testimony.

20 MR. JONES: Indeed, Your Honour. My learned friend has led the

21 witness through the non-contentious parts of her evidence, i.e. Where she

22 lives et cetera. For anything which concerns her account of events in

23 1992 we feel very strongly that that evidence has to come from this

24 witness, particularly given that she doesn't read or write, and so there

25 isn't a reliable written statement --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, as we go along, as we go along, Mr. Wubben

2 would indicate if he wants to lead. If you want to object, you object.

3 And then we'll decide, that's how we do it. But the practice is sometimes

4 we allow, sometimes we don't, depending on what kind of questions are

5 being asked and how controversial the point and issue -- point of evidence

6 and issue is.

7 MR. JONES: Certainly, just to make our position clear.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the normal position you are taking,

9 Mr. Jones, and it will be dealt with in the normal way that we are used to

10 here.

11 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

12 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness, you lived in the hamlet of Kusici. You confirmed to the

14 Court the Zabokvica village. Is that true?

15 A. Yes, that's true.

16 Q. Please tell me, after the war in the year 1992, had there been any

17 incidents related to the war in that particular year or not?

18 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

19 Q. So until the end of the year 1992, everything seems quiet in that

20 regard?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What happened in the year after, in the beginning of 1993? Can

23 you clarify that to the Court.

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. Did anything happen in regard to incidents related to the war in

1 the beginning of 1993 in the hamlet you lived?

2 A. I was at home when it started. I can't remember.

3 Q. You can remember you were at home. And please tell the Court what

4 started. What did you see or hear?

5 A. I was at home. And when it started in 1993, there was an attack

6 and shooting, and I didn't see or hear anything other than that.

7 Q. It started in 1993. And was that in your hamlet in the beginning

8 of the year, the first month of the year?

9 A. I don't remember which year that was. I cannot read or write, so

10 I couldn't follow.

11 Q. We are still in the year 1993. You confirmed to the Court that

12 the year 1992 was quiet, though there was a war. And in the beginning of

13 the following year, that means January, February, or March 1993, please

14 confirm to the Court, something happened in the hamlet. Do you recall the

15 month?

16 A. It was on the 16th of January 1993. That's the only thing I can

17 remember. Before that, we had been told for women and children to move

18 out, but I had no place to go to. So when it fell, I don't know anything

19 else apart from that.

20 Q. And you confirmed to the Court that there was an attack. Can you

21 tell me more about it, what you saw and what you heard on that specific

22 day?

23 A. At around 5.00 on the morning when the attack started, when they

24 attacked Kusici village, they captured some people and drove them out.

25 But I didn't hear or see anything else.

1 Q. And what did you do after you saw this attack or heard this

2 attack?

3 A. Well, I don't know. They attacked us. They started shooting, and

4 we started running away. And I didn't see anything else. Everything was

5 left behind in our houses.

6 Q. And where did you ran to?

7 A. To the Pirici, Markovici, all the way to the Dobrak hamlet.

8 Q. And did you meet anyone there?

9 A. I met some army people.

10 Q. How did they look like, those army people?

11 A. I don't know. I couldn't recognise anyone. They had balaclavas

12 over their heads. They had ribbons tied.

13 Q. Did they wear any arms?

14 A. Yes, they were armed.

15 Q. And what -- from what country or from what ethnic origin they

16 were?

17 A. I don't know. I cannot say from which country they came.

18 Q. Were these from Serbian origin, these army?

19 A. Why would the Serbs be chasing us away?

20 Q. When you speak about army, do you mean soldiers that you saw?

21 A. Yes, they were soldiers, only I don't know who they were. They

22 were in camouflage uniforms.

23 Q. If they were not Serbian soldiers, were they Muslim soldiers?

24 A. They were not Serbs. I just don't know who they were.

25 Q. What did they do after they met you or you ran into them?

1 A. They didn't do anything. They took over and sat there, and we

2 were there all the time. It was a sunny day, although it was January but

3 it was rather warm. The nights were warm.

4 Q. What do you mean by "they took over"?

5 A. When they took us over, because it was already dark, and one group

6 went to Poljak, and then another one went to another village, and the rest

7 were captured.

8 Q. And you yourself, were you captured as well?

9 A. Yes, I was. I was captured.

10 Q. And were you the only one who was captured?

11 A. No, there were a lot of us women from the hamlets of Kusici and

12 Dvizovici.

13 Q. What women from the hamlet of Kusici? Can you name them?

14 A. Yes, I can. Mileva Mitrovic, Stanija Mitrovic, myself, my

15 neighbour Mitrovic, Stana Mitrovic, Mileva Mitrovic from Kusici. And her

16 son, Sane, who was disabled.

17 Q. What is the following name of this last person you mentioned

18 referred to as Sane, his first name?

19 A. Stanko Mitrovic. He was paralyzed in one leg. He used a stick to

20 walk.

21 Q. And were you taken as well to Poljak subsequently?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you stay the night, the evening over there?

24 A. Yes. Yes, we stayed there that night.

25 Q. And is it correct that the following day, and related your

1 statement, that should be the 17th of January, that you reached another

2 town or village?

3 A. We spent the night in Poljak. There was a sack of wheat in a

4 cellar. We spent the night, and then we went to Kragljivode to spend the

5 night there.

6 Q. Stop, please. Witness, I would like to ask you a question related

7 to this Kragljivode, this village. When you arrived there, did you also

8 spend the night in Kragljivode?

9 A. Yes, we spent the night at a man's house in Kragljivode when we

10 arrived from Poljak. When we got there, this man said we had to spend the

11 night there. That woman's son had been killed, and he put us in the

12 bathroom. We spent that night in the bathroom.

13 Q. And were you there with your group, with your captured group

14 surrounded by Muslims?

15 A. We were outside --

16 Q. You were outside. Where did you spend the night in Kragljivode?

17 A. We spent the night at a man's house. I don't remember our

18 soldiers and theirs being there together. I didn't see that.

19 Q. Did you saw Muslim soldiers?

20 A. When we spent the night there, when they took us to Kragljivode,

21 then they took us to Karacici.

22 Q. I will reiterate the question.

23 A. Very well.

24 Q. In Kragljivode, did you saw Muslim soldiers?

25 A. We didn't ask anyone anything, nor did anyone ask us anything.

1 Q. And when you spent --

2 A. Nobody asked us anything. I can't say what I don't know. Nobody

3 asked us anything. They just took us to Karacici from Kragljivode.

4 Q. My question is still related to Kragljivode. The next morning,

5 did you met any other person being a Serb?

6 A. Yes, we spent the night at a man's house in Kragljivode. And he

7 went to Srebrenica with us. An elderly man called Bogdan.

8 Q. He was an elderly man. How old was he by then? What is your

9 estimation?

10 A. Well, he was elderly.

11 Q. Meaning more than 50 or more than 60 years? What is "elderly"?

12 A. He was old. He wasn't young. He was an old man.

13 Q. Was he dressed like a military man or a civilian?

14 A. He was wearing civilian clothes.

15 Q. And where did he came from, this person?

16 A. We found him there when we arrived. And in the morning, he went

17 with us to Karacici. We found him there at that man's house. And he

18 joined us and went with us to Srebrenica.

19 Q. And what did you learn from him when you met him that morning?

20 Where did he came from, from what village?

21 A. The name of the village is Dubrovi [phoen], it's near Jezero up

22 there. Near Jezero, Kragljivode, Stublovi. It's a hamlet.

23 Q. So, an elderly person, a Serb called Bogdan in civilian clothes.

24 How did he look like? Can you describe in what state of health he was?

25 A. I only saw him once. He was all beaten up. He was all blue in

1 the face. Afterwards, I didn't see him any more. They took away another

2 group, and he wasn't with us any more.

3 Q. After that village, after that meeting, where did you go to

4 captured by those soldiers?

5 A. Two of us escorted us to Karacici from Kragljivode. We were

6 there. They questioned us there. We spent a long time in Karacici, until

7 3.00. Then they questioned us, and a man said that -- this was Monday.

8 He said we were going to Srebrenica. A man with a tractor came.

9 Q. And on the tractor or with the help of that tractor, you went to

10 Srebrenica?

11 A. We got the order from Karacici. People were saying among

12 themselves that we were to go by tractor. We went by tractor. There was

13 snow. It was slippery, so from Hadzici Brdo, we went on foot to Jadar,

14 downhill, and they put chains on the tyres. We went down to the asphalt

15 and we went on foot to Jadar. And that evening we arrived in Srebrenica.

16 It was Monday.

17 Q. Where were you brought to in Srebrenica when you arrived?

18 A. When we arrived, it was dark. They took us to the headquarters.

19 They listed our names, all of us who arrived that night. Then we got

20 warm. There were lots of us. We spent the night there.

21 Q. Thank you for answering my question. Now, this building, I have a

22 question. Was this the first time you went to Srebrenica, or did you

23 earlier as a civilian or whatsoever paid Srebrenica a visit?

24 A. I think I didn't -- I haven't been there since I was taken

25 prisoner.

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1 Q. No, I don't mean after you have been taken as a prisoner, but I

2 mean before that. Did you knew the town Srebrenica before?

3 A. Yes, we did go there before when my mother-in-law was ill. There

4 was an outpatients' clinic in Jezero, and they referred her to the health

5 centre in Srebrenica. So I took her there by bus, and she was

6 hospitalised in Srebrenica. She stayed there in hospital.

7 Q. So you know -- you knew already a little bit about the buildings

8 and the town itself.

9 A. Yes, yes, we did know it.

10 Q. Now, the building you were taken to, how was it called, this first

11 building you arrived?

12 A. I don't know what the name of the building was. Two men arrived

13 in the morning to take us to that prison. It was foggy, and then they

14 took us to where there's a fountain in Srebrenica, to another building,

15 near the municipality. But I don't remember.

16 Q. I will come to that issue later, to the building near the

17 municipality building. But first, you spent the night in another

18 building, and you earlier referred to it as headquarters. So it was a

19 kind of official building, public building?

20 A. I don't know. When we arrived, they listed us, and we spent the

21 night in a part of that building. And then they took us -- in the

22 morning, they took us to the other building.

23 Q. I understand that you would like to tell a story. But please be

24 limited to answering my question and the issue I will refer to.

25 When you spent the night in this building, you referred to this

1 first building as headquarters, did the same group of other prisoners were

2 with you?

3 A. When we got there from Poljak, we found all the women who were

4 imprisoned in that building, and we all spent the night there, if that's

5 what you're asking me, from Kusici, from Dvizovici.

6 Q. And those are the same women as you earlier mentioned the names

7 this morning?

8 A. Yes. The ones whose names I mentioned from Kusici, I didn't tell

9 you the names of the others from Dvizovici who were in that room.

10 Q. Can you please recall the names. Please call them.

11 A. Yes, Stanko Obradovic, Milka Obradovic, Mara Obradovic, another

12 woman from Kusici whose last name I don't know, and her daughter, Stojanka

13 Obradovic, Jelka, Danica Markovic. Her brother came to Kusici, and she

14 was there, too. I'd forgotten her.

15 Q. So you were also interrogated or enlisted in this headquarters

16 building?

17 A. They wrote down our names. They took our identity papers, money.

18 Q. And the one who -- the ones who took your identity papers, these

19 were from the army or civilians or police?

20 A. I don't know who they were. I don't know. They were in

21 camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. What do you mean by camouflage uniforms? The same uniforms you

23 noticed when your hamlet had been attacked, or were these other camouflage

24 uniforms?

25 A. What do I know? They were multicoloured, green. I didn't see any

1 other colours.

2 Q. So now we arrive at the other issue you already referred to as

3 being taken another building near the municipality building. That other

4 building you were taken to, was that the next morning?

5 A. It was on Tuesday. We arrived in Srebrenica on Monday, and then

6 on Tuesday morning, early, we were taken away. It was foggy. It was

7 drizzling.

8 Q. And you were taken then to a building near the municipality

9 building?

10 A. Yes, there were two buildings. I can't remember now. I've

11 forgotten that building.

12 Q. That other building is, as common knowledge, next to it there are

13 several buildings. One of those buildings is the court building. Is that

14 correct?

15 MR. JONES: Sorry, I don't know, putting matters of common

16 knowledge to the witness. Surely the witness should be asked if she knew

17 what buildings were in the vicinity.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's fine. Mr. Jones --

19 MR. JONES: Otherwise counsel is giving evidence.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You will be doing the same. When it comes to

21 establishing these facts, if it is really something controversial, yes, we

22 will put our foot down.

23 MR. JONES: It's just that the witness said she has forgotten the

24 buildings.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but again, I mean normally one would try to

1 help the witness. We're talking about someone who has had a stressful

2 life and events.

3 MR. JONES: Certainly, Your Honour. We just don't want to give

4 the witness evidence.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, I will not allow Mr. Wubben to give evidence

6 instead of her. But I will certainly allow Mr. Wubben, including yourself

7 and Madam Vidovic, to try and refresh the memory of a witness when it

8 starts failing a little bit, I mean, on matters which are not that

9 crucial, I mean.

10 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I may proceed, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

14 Q. So do you recall that the other building might be the court

15 building or is that another building you refer to?

16 A. It was a long time ago. I don't know any more. I don't remember

17 what building we spent the night in, where they took us. In the

18 municipality, in the cellar, were they there? I can't remember at all

19 what building we were in. It was a long time ago. The only thing I know

20 is that in the morning, we were taken there. We brought water. We went

21 to the toilet. And we spent the night there, women. I don't remember. I

22 can't say. I don't know.

23 Q. When you were taken to the building near the municipality

24 building, were you imprisoned there in a room, in a cell?

25 A. It was a big room, and there were a lot of women inside. There

1 was a window with bars on it to one side.

2 Q. And can you describe the room more where you were in, the room

3 with the bars?

4 A. I don't remember. I can't write. I'm not literate.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Because knowing how to read and write

6 has got very little to do with remembering events in one's life that one

7 has lived.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I can't read.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but you need to -- do you need to read to

10 remember where you were kept, how big was the cell or the room, how it

11 was? What was its condition? I don't think you need to read anywhere or

12 to know how to read.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were benches. I asked for a

14 fire to be lit and for water to be brought.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever give a description of this location, of

16 this room, to anyone before? Were you asked by anyone, by someone to

17 describe this room before? Say, for example, in your own country, were

18 you interviewed by the court in Zvornik, for example? Do you remember

19 being interviewed by Judge Vaso Eric in Zvornik?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lady from Bratunac, Miloslav,

21 showed him to me. We found him there in Srebrenica.

22 MR. WUBBEN: Perhaps, Your Honour, you might consider to make an

23 observation on her health or her condition. It might be time after an

24 hour to have a break. But that's your decision, of course, and

25 consideration of the Court.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Madam Mitrovic, we are going to have a short

2 break. The staff will bring you something to drink. In the meantime,

3 relax and try to remember because these things are very important for us.

4 I mean, we weren't there at the time. You were there. So you need to

5 tell us, give us as much information as you can remember. You don't need

6 to read anything. What you remember, you remember. What you don't

7 remember, you don't remember. And where you don't remember, we will ask

8 you whether you have given statements before to anyone else, for example,

9 to an officer of the Prosecution or to a court in Zvornik or elsewhere,

10 and we will try to read out to you if necessary parts of those statements

11 to try and refresh your memory. But you need to tell us.

12 So have a break. I'm going to give you 30 minutes' break, which

13 should be more than enough for you to relax.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you suggesting something less than that?

16 MR. WUBBEN: 30 minutes is fine.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think let's start with 30 minutes and then we see.

18 Try to remember because I find it difficult to understand how someone

19 who -- I have read the statements that you have made already, someone who

20 claims to have passed through all these events have forgotten important,

21 important details. I do accept that people do forget, but I think that

22 with a little bit of effort you will try to remember. And if you need us

23 to refresh your memory, tell us and we will try to refresh your memory.

24 We will do it ourselves. We won't even let Mr. Wubben do it.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know, I know. What I don't

1 know, I don't. I will say what I know, and I can't say what I don't know.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We will have a half hour's break. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.09 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

5 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. During the break, I consulted a little bit

7 with the representative of the Victims and Witnesses Unit about the

8 condition of the witness. And it has been suggested to you to allow the

9 representative of the Witness and Victims Unit to sit near the witness

10 while she is giving evidence because she could be of assistance to her,

11 and also of assistance to us if we fail to notice in time when we need to

12 stop or when we need to have a break or if -- she is in a better condition

13 than we are to notice a crisis even before it's coming. But we are in

14 agreement. But we also would like to hear what you have to say in regard.

15 MR. WUBBEN: No objections, Your Honour.

16 MR. JONES: Yes, we have no objections whatsoever.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So Madam Usher, please. I thank you for your

18 cooperation.

19 Madam Mitrovic, are you feeling better now?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good. Good. Can we proceed?

22 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Let's proceed on your description of that cell with the bars that

25 you gave to the Judges. My question is, can you please describe this

1 cell, this room.

2 A. There was a barred window in a corner. The room was smaller than

3 this one that we are in now. And that's where we were. There was a stove

4 in another corner. There were benches. There was a desk also. And that

5 is where we were.

6 Q. The room was smaller than this room. This is a big room. But how

7 smaller was it? Can you describe in metres, perhaps?

8 A. It was somewhat smaller than this one, slightly smaller. It

9 wasn't as big as this one. And only women and children were there.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think you can safely move to the next

11 question. This is perhaps, if it's still in existence, we'll be able to

12 see this room hopefully.

13 MR. WUBBEN:

14 Q. Can you name the women and children that were together with you in

15 that particular room?

16 A. I will repeat their names. Dostana, Milosava, Andja and Stanija,

17 Stojanka, Jelka, Mara, myself, Stanko was with the men. Dostana, Danica,

18 Stojanka, we were all there in that room, Milena, Stana, Dzivana. Dostana

19 was with her children, with her two children in another room, while

20 Dostana was with us.

21 Q. Can you tell us -- tell the Court about the daily regime. How was

22 the food? How were the circumstances in your own words while you were

23 imprisoned?

24 A. Well, the conditions were not bad. I cannot say that -- were bad.

25 I cannot say. They were not good. It was difficult to live there. It

1 was winter.

2 Q. It was winter. Does that mean that it was cold also inside in

3 your cell?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. And did the women and children suffer from that cold, or were you

6 able to warm it or heat it? Can you tell the Court.

7 A. There was Ivanka's son, a young boy, who was sent to deliver a

8 letter, and Dostana was down there in a house in Srebrenica. We couldn't

9 heat the room. There were no wooden logs.

10 Q. Does that mean that it was cold?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you have light in your cell?

13 A. No. There were no lights. Only when they came to see us, they

14 would light candles.

15 Q. And were there toilet or bathroom facilities?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters can't hear the witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Mitrovic, we can't hear you. Could you speak

18 into the microphone, please.

19 The question was whether there were any toilets or any bathrooms

20 in the room or --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were. There was a toilet

22 inside.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hmm.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that building. In the basement

25 where we were.

1 MR. WUBBEN:

2 Q. And the circumstances, what did you feel during your stay? What

3 were your feelings about it?

4 A. It was difficult.

5 Q. And the other women and children, how did they feel or tell you

6 how they felt?

7 A. Well, there was nothing to tell. They told us that we would be

8 exchanged. They used to come and see this Stana Mitrovic because she had

9 wounded. They came twice to visit her.

10 Q. About the daily regime, did you get food on a daily basis?

11 A. Not every day. We didn't receive food. They would just bring us

12 a slice of bread and a bowl of soup. But I couldn't eat because my

13 dentures were knocked out as I had been beaten. And we were not able to

14 eat. We just needed enough water to drink. We didn't ask for any bread.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

17 MR. WUBBEN:

18 Q. Why didn't you ask for any bread? Wasn't it available, or was it

19 available?

20 A. We didn't dare because we didn't know those people. We didn't

21 dare ask for bread because they told us they didn't have enough bread for

22 themselves either.

23 Q. And for how long did you stay in that room together with those

24 women and children? Can you give an estimation in days or weeks?

25 A. Three weeks. We were in that room for three weeks.

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1 Q. And during that time, did there also came another woman or more to

2 that cell to join your group?

3 A. Andja came, and the friend of the man - that was on the second

4 night - but Andja was taken to the room where men were.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I'd like to put forward the question but

6 in private session, if I may.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go private session, Mr. Registrar.

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7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 MR. WUBBEN:

11 Q. I will go back to the issue of the circumstances of that time and

12 what you heard and learned of the daily regime. My question is how was

13 life, what did you hear around you?

14 A. What was there to hear? They would come and see us, go where the

15 men were. I heard men being beaten. That Sane Mitrovic was disabled.

16 That was on only one evening, though. It didn't happen again.

17 Q. When you hear those sounds, did you conclude -- did you feel that

18 there were more prisoners than only the women together with you in that

19 cell?

20 A. I don't know how many of them there were, sir. I don't know how

21 many of them there were. I wasn't able to see. I don't know.

22 Q. You heard men being beaten. What do you mean by that?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. But what did you hear that made you think?

25 A. What do I know? What do I know? I heard them beating them one

1 evening. Afterwards, they didn't do that. They would come and look at us

2 and ask us questions. They didn't say anything more to us.

3 Q. And when you heard those men being beaten, what did you hear?

4 A. It was only one night. It didn't happen again. That Stanko was

5 crying out. You could hear him moaning.

6 Q. Did you and women in your cell spoke about it, discuss it, about

7 those noises, those sounds?

8 A. No, we didn't. We didn't.

9 Q. How were the guards? Did they treat you well?

10 A. Yes, they did. If we wanted to go to the toilet in the evening or

11 in the morning, Stana was on a stretcher. She couldn't go to the toilet

12 because she had been wounded. They came to see her, try to get her up,

13 try to get her walking.

14 Q. These guards, did they also belong or look like an army, a

15 soldier?

16 MR. JONES: Shouldn't the question be what were they wearing or

17 something of that nature really?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. Let's hear what the -- you're

19 perfectly right, Mr. Jones. But the witness was about to answer the

20 question. Let's see if she understood it the way you suggested the

21 question should be phrased in any case, and then we could remedy the

22 question if necessary.

23 Did you understand the question that Mr. Wubben put to you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear your answer, then, Madam, please.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When you say what were they wearing,

2 they were wearing multicoloured uniforms. They would come and see us. We

3 didn't have anything else.

4 MR. WUBBEN:

5 Q. Were these guards wearing uniforms, were these Serbs or another

6 ethnic group?

7 A. I don't know whether they were Serbs or Bosniaks. I don't know

8 who they were. I didn't know anything.

9 Q. Did they also, these uniformed guards, did they also visit you in

10 your cell?

11 A. It was only when they wanted to go to the toilet or have a smoke,

12 then they would take us back. They were in a room.

13 Q. And do you recall that besides being treated well by the uniformed

14 guards, also opposite stories? Or can you confirm to the Judges that in

15 general and all the time they treat you right?

16 A. They all treated us right. They would come and say we would be

17 exchanged. They didn't treat us badly.

18 Q. Do you recall any names of the uniformed guards at the prison or

19 other guards?

20 A. I don't recall, no. I just recall someone called Salko. He knew

21 Milosava Dostana, he had been a neighbour of hers. I don't know any of

22 them.

23 Q. From the visitors of your cell, from let's say the people who are

24 in charge in guarding, besides those guards, did also other persons visit

25 your cell and informed you about --

1 MR. JONES: Sorry, he can ask -- Mr. Wubben can ask: Did anyone

2 else visit the cell, but then to suggest what they might have said or done

3 is far too leading in my submission.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them one by one, Mr. Wubben. Let's first

5 establish whether there were other persons who went there, and then you

6 can put the relevant question in regard to each one of them, if at all

7 relevant.

8 MR. WUBBEN:

9 Q. Did also other persons visit your cell?

10 A. Zulfo came to visit us in our cell where we women were. And a

11 certain Miko from Osmac. And a man called Budo from Lovrak.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Dobrak. I don't recall anyone

14 else.

15 MR. WUBBEN:

16 Q. Please, can you tell me more about the visit by these men you

17 referred to as --

18 A. I'll tell you what I know. I told you who came. They came on

19 several occasions, but I don't know what their names were. But those

20 three were the ones who came most often.

21 Q. And how often came Zulfo?

22 A. We didn't ask him. He and Miko came to see us. They would say we

23 would be exchanged. They told us not to be afraid.

24 Q. Did you knew this Zulfo from before?

25 A. No, I didn't. When they took us prisoner, then he came to our

1 cell. Milosava Dostana from Bratunac showed him to me.

2 Q. And do you know from what village this Zulfo came from?

3 A. No, I don't. We were far away from there. I can't tell you the

4 name of the village.

5 Q. Can you describe him.

6 A. He was tall, dark-haired, stocky. He had a leather jacket.

7 Q. He was tall. What do you mean by tall? Very tall or can you

8 describe?

9 A. He was a tall, heavy-set man.

10 Q. And apart from these three names you gave, did also another person

11 visit your cell?

12 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I'm sorry to rise to my feet. But the

13 witness said those three names, and then said "I don't recall anyone

14 else." She has already answered that question, and in my submission she

15 shouldn't be pushed with the same question. She has answered that

16 question.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, that was not pushing a question forward.

18 It was an open question whether or not she recall, apart from the three

19 men --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: She doesn't recall. The incident is closed.

22 Mr. Jones was right. You also had the right to put another question

23 suggesting to the witness to think about her previous question and

24 consider whether she would like to change it, whether on rethinking she

25 could remember someone else. But that's about it.

1 I think, Madam Mitrovic, you don't remember anyone else, do you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. No. I don't recall

3 anyone else.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it.

5 MR. WUBBEN:

6 Q. And did the women in your cell discuss or informed you about the

7 name of another person?

8 MR. JONES: Again, I don't know what my learned friend is trying

9 to get at. She can speak about who visited her. She said the names of

10 the people. She was in the same cell as these women. And now Mr. Wubben

11 is asking again what is going to be a very leading question. He can ask

12 did they discuss matters, what did they discuss? But to put a proposition

13 to her, it's feeding her, or attempting to feed her evidence.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, if I may, this is not a question

15 pointing out someone else visiting her, but this was a question whether or

16 not other women discussed with this witness the name of another person,

17 not focussed on visiting, discussing.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Wubben. Go ahead.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. So Witness, you recalled three names. Apart from that, did the

21 women in your cell discuss with you or inform you --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mention.

23 MR. WUBBEN:

24 Q. -- or mention another name?

25 A. Only Dostana pointed out this gentleman to me. He came once, and

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1 she told me his name, and then I saw the other three or four men.

2 Q. And what was the name of that gentleman?

3 A. That's all I know. I don't remember anything else. She said that

4 his name was Naser Colic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Naser. And what else?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he just looked around and then

7 he left.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. What is the name that you told us? Naser?

9 Naser who? What else?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was his name.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But what was his surname then, the second name?

12 Naser?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know his last name or where

14 he was from. She didn't tell me. And I didn't inquire much about who he

15 was.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But before -- I asked you the question because

17 before I heard you say something like Colic or something like that. You

18 didn't just say "Naser" and "I don't know the rest." You said Naser plus

19 either Colic. I couldn't hear you well. That's why I'm asking you to

20 repeat the name again.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just heard that that was his name,

22 that's what I was told.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Colic, in other words. Colic? Is it Colic?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what this woman told me.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

1 MR. WUBBEN:

2 Q. So this gentleman with the first name of Naser came once to your

3 cell?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And Dostana pointed him out with that name you referred to?

6 A. Yes, she did.

7 Q. And the gentleman with the surname of -- with the first name of

8 Naser, he didn't stay long?

9 A. No, he didn't.

10 Q. How long? Can you give in minutes?

11 A. He just walked around for a while.

12 Q. And --

13 A. About 30 seconds. Not longer than that.

14 Q. And where did he walk around?

15 A. I was sitting on the bench in the corner under the window. The

16 other women were also sitting on other benches.

17 Q. Yes. And where was he walking, please?

18 A. Around the cell.

19 Q. Around the cell. You mean in the cell as well?

20 Shall I repeat the question, Witness? My question was: Did he

21 also, this gentleman called Naser, the first name, also came in your cell?

22 MR. JONES: I'd be grateful if in putting the question my learned

23 friend would not insist on the person being called Naser. It's -- as the

24 witness made clear, she was told by someone else that he was called Naser.

25 And this witness hasn't accepted that he was called Naser, and it's clear

1 from her evidence that she doesn't know who he was. So if he could please

2 phrase it so it's not the suggestion that this witness knows that the man

3 was called Naser.

4 MR. WUBBEN: I will do --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, the Trial Chamber knows that, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. WUBBEN:

7 Q. So again, my question is, Witness, will you please answer: Did

8 this person called Naser also came in your cell?

9 A. I apologise. Dostana said that he was, and I didn't inquire much.

10 Q. Yes. And did that person then came in your cell?

11 A. Yes, he did enter our cell.

12 Q. So you saw him yourself?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And how does this person pointed out to you as called Naser looks

15 like?

16 A. How can I tell you? He was of medium height. I was excited, and

17 just took a glance at him. That was a long time ago.

18 Q. You just gave the Court a description of this person called Zulfo,

19 very tall et cetera. Compared to this Zulfo, can you tell more about that

20 other person being called Naser?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And like Zulfo, did this --

23 A. Zulfo was much more heavy-set. This one was of medium height.

24 Q. And you told the Court that this person called Naser visited your

25 cell. Did this visit also have to do with the exchange?

1 A. I didn't hear that, only those who had captured us came. And when

2 Zulfo came, where we were, and Miko, and they told us that we shouldn't be

3 afraid and that there was going to be an exchange. And they told us

4 nothing else.

5 Q. Did the exchange take place?

6 A. Yes, it did.

7 Q. And may I ask again, after how many -- after how long time in

8 weeks?

9 A. We were there for three weeks, and then one day at around 9.00, we

10 were told to be ready and that there was a lorry coming to pick us up.

11 Q. And who was in the lorry?

12 A. I don't know. We were in a van and in a lorry, there was a dead

13 volunteer, and attending the exchange were Miko, Budo, and Zulfo.

14 Q. What was Zulfo's role in this, what did he do?

15 A. Yes, he was there.

16 Q. And what did he do?

17 A. He said that the exchange would take place. Miko told us that had

18 they had enough bread and wood, that we would have stayed longer. And

19 that women and children were guilty of nothing and that they had to be

20 exchanged.

21 Q. Before we proceed on that issue, I would like now to ask you to

22 recollect whether or not there was next to your cell other rooms. Was

23 there a corridor? Can you describe that to the Judges.

24 A. Yes, there was a corridor. Where we were, there was a toilet.

25 Q. And you already confirmed or told the Judges that this Stanko was

1 brought to the men's room, the room of the men. Was that also another

2 room, or was there a corridor between? Can you tell us something about

3 it?

4 A. There was a corridor, and we went from our cell through that

5 corridor to the toilet. And there was another room there as well.

6 Q. So the day of your exchange, you could see more than the time than

7 you were in your cell?

8 A. When they came in the evening to make a list of how many of us

9 there were, then the following morning at around 9.00, a van came to take

10 us to Srebrenica and Skelani. We went out of the building to an asphalt

11 road. We waited for a daughter-in-law and children. We got into the van,

12 and the lorry was driving behind us.

13 Q. And that was the lorry with Zulfo?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And where was Zulfo sitting?

16 A. Miko was at the steering wheel, and he sat next to him.

17 Q. This day of the exchange, at what time of the day - was it the

18 morning or the evening - that you left this cell together with the women

19 detained with you? Was it at the morning or...?

20 A. At around 9.00 in the morning. We were told to be ready at that

21 time, and that the van was coming. And Stana was on -- she had sticks,

22 and that's where we waited to be taken away.

23 Q. Then I give it a follow up in time. Then you go out of that

24 building where you were imprisoned. What did you saw when you walked out

25 that particular building? Did you walk through a corridor or only to a

1 hall or whatever? Can you describe that for the Judges.

2 A. Yes, we passed through a corridor.

3 Q. And then?

4 A. And then out to that asphalt road. We took Stana slowly. She was

5 on the crutches. And then the van came, and Dostana and her children, and

6 we all boarded the van.

7 Q. My last question will be: Who were the women, what were the names

8 of the women and others that had been -- the children, for example, that

9 had been exchanged together with you?

10 A. Excuse me.

11 Dostana's daughter-in-law and the children and her little daughter

12 and her grandson. I don't know their names. Then there were Milosava,

13 Andja, Stanija Mitrovic, Danica Markovic, Mara Obradovic, Stojanka, Jelka,

14 Milka.

15 Q. Please, their last names also. Not only the first name but also

16 the last name of those. So Mara Obradovic, and then you start with

17 Stojanka. As I may --

18 A. Stanka Obradovic, Jelka Obradovic. All their surnames were

19 Obradovic. Stanija and I were Mitrovic, Stana, Milena also.

20 Q. And you mention also -- as I refer to the transcript, Your Honour,

21 Milka? What was the family name of Milka?

22 A. Obradovic. She was also from the village of Visovici [phoen].

23 Q. These are the names you can recall, or do you recall more?

24 A. This woman Stojanka, who was with us, her last name was also

25 Obradovic. I also know -- I only don't know Dzivana from Arapovici, her

1 last name and her daughter's last name.

2 Q. To finalise, the exchange itself, that went without any problems?

3 Can you describe the exchange of prisoners that happened to you to the

4 Judges.

5 A. When we boarded the van, they turned the music on. We waited for

6 a long time at Vitez. Then -- it was a nice sunny day. We waited for a

7 long time. And I must say that they put their wounded men on the lorry,

8 then that dead volunteer they put on another lorry. And we stayed for a

9 long time at Vitez. It was a nice day.

10 Q. And that was the last time you saw Zulfo?

11 A. Zulfo told us to send greetings to our Srebrenica, that

12 Srebrenica, Skelani would again be mixed municipalities as they had been,

13 and that they would have given us more food had it been available.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, thank you. I finalise my questions.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben.

16 We've just been almost one hour sitting. I don't know, the

17 representative of the unit, whether she would recommend we have another

18 break to give her a rest.

19 Yes. So Madam Mitrovic, look at me, we are going to have another

20 short break so that you can relax further. And then we continue. All

21 right?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, could you give us an indication of how

24 much you require.

25 MR. JONES: Approximately an hour and a half maximum.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: An hour and a half. So okay. We will have a 25 --

2 is that okay, with you, 25 minutes?

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: To make sure that we finish with this witness today,

5 I know that the interpreters usually insist on a 25 -- and the

6 technicians, a 25-minute minimum. If I tried to suggest a 20-minute

7 break, would you wage war against me? I can't see you behind. The

8 chances are that we will then finish earlier with the witness. Okay. And

9 the technicians are okay as well? The reporter?

10 So we will have a 20-minute break. That will put you in the

11 position that you can certainly finish the cross-examination. Thank you.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.42 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher, could you bring the witness in, please.

15 Yes, Madam Mitrovic, Mr. Jones, who is appearing for the accused,

16 will now be putting some questions to you.

17 Mr. Jones, she is all yours.

18 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

20 Q. Ms. Mitrovic, I'll be asking you a few questions now, so you could

21 try to keep your voice up and keep your answers short, that would be very

22 helpful.

23 Now, it's right, isn't it, that you've spoken about these events

24 that you've described today in court, you've spoken about them before to

25 investigators?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you've done that on two occasions

3 at least? That's correct, isn't it?

4 A. About that man?

5 Q. No, I'm talking about the account you've given today describing

6 your detention, it's right, isn't it, that you spoke once --

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. You spoke about four years ago to investigators of this Tribunal

9 about those events. Would that be right?

10 A. When they asked me questions, they asked me how old I was. I've

11 forgotten what the date was. What year it was when I was imprisoned and

12 when I went there, and when they came to me ask me questions about it, I

13 don't remember when that was.

14 Q. All right. That's fine. I simply want to establish who in the

15 past has asked you questions about these events. It's right, isn't it,

16 that first of all you were asked by the police in Skelani about these

17 events?

18 A. No, no. No. A woman asked me questions. They came to ask me

19 questions, but our police from Skelani didn't. No, they didn't ask me

20 anything. As I told the lawyer gentleman, our police didn't ask me

21 anything. I would say if they had. I would say so. But they didn't.

22 Why should I hide anything or lie?

23 Q. Of course. There's no suggestion that you would. Let's go back

24 to that woman you mentioned. Is that an investigator from this Tribunal,

25 someone from outside Bosnia?

1 A. You mean Dostana? What woman do you mean? I don't remember that

2 woman.

3 Q. You said "a woman asked me questions". So what woman would that

4 be who asked you questions about these events?

5 A. I mean, she spoke in a foreign language, and our interpreters

6 interpreted. And she asked me questions, and I made a statement.

7 Q. Right. So stopping there, we'll assume that that's the

8 investigator of the Tribunal, international. It's right, isn't it, then

9 that you never gave any statement to the Skelani police about these

10 events?

11 A. No, never. They didn't question me. I would say if they had. I

12 have nothing to hide. Nobody asked me.

13 Q. It's also right, isn't it, that as you told us this morning you've

14 never given evidence in a court before in your life?

15 A. This is the first time.

16 Q. So you've never spoken about these events to a judge in your own

17 country?

18 A. No, never, never. Never. I never did. I never knew what a court

19 was. I'm not literate.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we're talking of an

21 investigative judge. And in various parts of civil-law countries, the

22 interviewing of individuals most of the time is not conducted in proper

23 courtrooms or in those conditions. I mean, most of the time, it's

24 conducted in the judge's own room.

25 MR. JONES: Indeed, Your Honour. I was going to come to that.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: So the way you put it could have misled the witness

2 into thinking that you were asking her whether she had already been to

3 another court where she gave evidence or something like that. I think one

4 needs to rephrase the question along the lines that I have suggested.

5 MR. JONES: Certainly, Your Honour. I will do. I was starting

6 with the situation of evidence being given in a court, because that's

7 obviously one possibility.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You are in cross-examination. Go straight to the

9 head and ask her straight away whether she has ever been asked questions

10 by someone, an investigative judge or some officer in Zvornik, and go

11 straight there.

12 MR. JONES:

13 Q. That's the question, if you would please answer that.

14 A. No, no. Nobody asked me to go anywhere to answer questions from

15 Zvornik or from Bratunac or anywhere else.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions first of all

17 just about Skelani, so we can get our bearings. And then we'll move on --

18 A. Yes, please go ahead and ask.

19 Q. Right. Skelani is right across the Drina from Serbia, isn't it?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. You just cross a steel bridge, and then you're in Bajina Basta

22 which is in Serbia?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that there's a hydroelectric plant right

25 there across the Drina from Skelani?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. During the war did you have any occasion -- well, let me rephrase

3 that. In 1992, did you ever go to the Drina, to that steel bridge and

4 look across to the plant, the hydroelectric plant?

5 A. No, I didn't. I didn't. I know where it is, but I never crossed

6 that bridge.

7 Q. I want to ask you whether you're aware that the Yugoslav Army had

8 positioned tanks and artillery in the forecourt of that plant, if that's

9 something that you saw or knew about?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know that. I know nothing about those

11 events. I would tell you if I did. I wouldn't hide it.

12 Q. Now, let's turn just briefly to your village, Zabokvica. That was

13 a mixed village, was it not? There were Muslims there before the war?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. About 50 or so. Would that be right?

16 A. There were quite a few houses in the village of Zabokvica.

17 Q. I was asking about the numbers of Muslims living in Zabokvica.

18 A. I can't tell you what the number was. We were a bit further away,

19 so I can't tell you how many lived there. How many households there were.

20 I can't say that because I don't know.

21 Q. Is Kalimanici, is that near your village?

22 A. It's near Resavici.

23 Q. And those are Muslim villages, aren't they? Resavici, Dobrak?

24 A. There are five or six houses there. Resavici, Serb houses. And

25 then above Kalimanici, there's Dobrak.

1 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that before the war you and your Muslim

2 neighbours got on very well? You socialised together, had coffee

3 together, that sort of thing?

4 A. Yes, we did. We would visit each other, have coffee together. We

5 would help each other with the harvest. We were on good terms. We never

6 thought anything like this would happen.

7 Q. You went to each other's weddings and festivals, and the young

8 people socialised together?

9 A. Yes, we did. Yes, yes, we did.

10 Q. So these were friends. You had many Muslim friends before the

11 war?

12 A. Yes, we did. We asked after each other's health, went to visit

13 each other. There was one from Pajici who had a daughter, and he was a

14 good man. He treated us well. They were all good people.

15 Q. It's right, isn't it, is that once the war came to Bosnia you

16 didn't see your Muslim neighbours anymore? You stopped visiting each

17 other?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know where they are or where our people

19 are. Some people have stayed behind, but other people have left. Our

20 people and their people alike.

21 Q. My apologies. But at the time when you stopped seeing your former

22 neighbours and Muslim friends, did you wonder what had happened to them,

23 where they had gone? Do you know what happened to them or where they

24 went?

25 A. I didn't know, no. I didn't know anything. I didn't meet anyone

1 because I didn't go out any more. There was an attack. I will tell you

2 everything.

3 Q. Just to locate this in time, I think earlier this morning you said

4 that in 1992, things were peaceful. You're now referring to an attack.

5 When, if you can place it in time, when did these troubles start? When

6 did you stop seeing your Muslim neighbours?

7 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know what year that was.

8 Q. How long roughly before the --

9 A. [No Interpretation]

10 Q. Don't worry about the date. How long before your capture and

11 detention in Srebrenica were there problems with your neighbours, when did

12 you stop seeing your neighbours? Was it three months before, six months

13 before, nine months before, before the attack in January 1993?

14 A. I didn't leave my house. I didn't go to Dobrak or Resavici to see

15 our neighbours there.

16 Q. Okay, that's fine. I'm going to move straight on to your capture.

17 In fact, I'm going to move beyond that and go straight to your arrival in

18 Kragljivode which you described this morning. Do you remember when you

19 arrived in Kragljivode. Now, there, you saw a called Bogdan. That's

20 right, isn't it?

21 A. When we arrived in Kragljivode to spend the night in that house,

22 he was an elderly man in civilian clothes.

23 Q. And he at that time was in a very bad way, he had been beaten up

24 and was swollen and black and blue all over?

25 A. Yes, that's right. And I think he died in Srebrenica. That man

1 died.

2 Q. So in fact, he was in very bad shape already in Kragljivode, which

3 I take it is quite some distance from Srebrenica. Is that right?

4 A. Kragljivode, yes. When they exchanged us, Kragljivode is quite

5 far. When we went to Srebrenica --

6 Q. Because you had to go by tractor, didn't you, from Zeleni Jadar,

7 because it's a long way?

8 A. Yes, by way of Zeleni Jadar, yes, yes, we went by tractor.

9 Q. Mr. Bogdan, at that stage was he in such bad shape he looked like

10 he might die shortly? At that point, was it that severe?

11 A. He went to Srebrenica with us, and then we didn't see him any

12 more. We didn't see him again after that.

13 Q. It's right, isn't it, that when he was beaten, that was actually

14 in Kragljivode and in Karacici where he was beaten?

15 A. I don't know when he was beaten because I didn't see the actual

16 beating. I just know that he was all bruised. He was all black and blue.

17 But I wasn't an eyewitness to the beating. I didn't see that, so I can't

18 tell you about it.

19 Q. That was before you arrived in Srebrenica that he was in that

20 state? Sorry, I can repeat the question.

21 A. He was taken prisoner before we were.

22 Q. Now, if we can move to Srebrenica now, you told us this morning

23 that you were in Srebrenica before the war. You told us that you took

24 your mother-in-law to the outpatient clinic there. Did you go anywhere

25 else on that previous visit to Srebrenica?

1 A. Yes, yes. I took my mother-in-law to Jezero to the outpatients'

2 clinic, and then they referred her to the hospital in Srebrenica.

3 Srebrenica was a town. There was a hospital there. And if there was

4 something they couldn't deal with in our villages, they referred us to

5 Srebrenica. There was another health centre in Skelani where we could all

6 go for treatment.

7 Q. But it was that one occasion that you went to Srebrenica. And you

8 went to the health clinic there.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, as you arrived in Srebrenica, if you can remember, can you

11 help us with what you saw of the people in Srebrenica when you arrived?

12 Did you see people living on the streets, looking for food on the streets?

13 Is that something you were aware of when you arrived?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Were the streets deserted when you arrived, the streets of

16 Srebrenica?

17 A. When we arrived, you mean when we were taken prisoner?

18 Q. Yes, yes.

19 A. No, no. There were people in Srebrenica, yes. There were, when

20 we arrived. There were a lot of people there.

21 Q. Can you give us an estimate of how many people you saw in

22 Srebrenica when you arrived in January 1993? Was it tens, hundreds,

23 thousands?

24 A. No, no, I can't tell you. I don't know. I didn't see. I can't

25 tell you.

1 Q. Were the streets crowded with people?

2 A. There were women and children when we were there waiting to be

3 exchanged.

4 Q. They were out in the open, weren't they?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And cooking food out in the open?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. And I don't know if you saw this, but perhaps burning plastic

9 crates for warmth, and other materials? Did you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This was in midwinter, wasn't it? It was very cold.

12 A. Yes. They brought us water and wood, but then there was no wood.

13 It was cold. It was snowing.

14 Q. I just want to stay one more moment with the people you saw in

15 Srebrenica. It's right, isn't it, they were in very bad shape themselves

16 with the cold and hunger?

17 A. They tell us about it -- they would tell us about did when they

18 came to visit us, that they were cold themselves, that they had no food,

19 and that they couldn't supply us with those things either.

20 Q. And it's right also, isn't it, that there was no electricity in

21 the town either, not just in your cell --

22 A. No, no, there was no electricity, no.

23 Q. You mentioned being brought to headquarters. Was that the same

24 thing as a police station that you were brought to when you first arrived?

25 A. When we first arrived, first they listed our names. They made a

1 list of our names. Then we warmed up a little there. And then they took

2 us to the little room.

3 Q. Okay. But when you say "there," that building, you referred to it

4 this morning as headquarters - I think you said it in Serbian - would it

5 be right that that's a police station? As far as you know. If you don't

6 know, please say so.

7 A. As far as I can remember, I think it was the SUP.

8 Q. Can you explain to us what that stands for, SUP.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That's the same thing as a civil police station. Is that it? We

11 can deal with that with another witness perhaps.

12 And you were brought there in Srebrenica two days after travelling

13 from where you'd been first arrested, from Skelani. It was a long voyage?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you said that you were asked questions, and you mentioned

16 earlier that people were in camouflage uniforms. Was everyone in the SUP

17 in camouflage uniforms, or were the people in civilian uniforms or people

18 in police uniforms?

19 A. When they brought us to Srebrenica, do you mean when I was taken

20 prisoner?

21 Q. When you were in Srebrenica and you were asked questions --

22 A. There were people in civilian clothes. They weren't in

23 multicoloured clothes. There were women there, too.

24 Q. And then you told us that you were taken to another building where

25 you were kept for something like three weeks.

1 A. I can't recall. I can't recall the room we were in that first

2 night. They came in in the morning and said good morning. It was foggy.

3 And then they took us up there where there is a fountain in Srebrenica.

4 Q. Yes, I'm not going to ask you any detailed questions about that,

5 just a few general questions. It's right, isn't it, that once you were in

6 Srebrenica, you were generally treated pretty well by the guards?

7 A. They didn't treat us badly, no. No one treated us badly. Whoever

8 came to visit us, they all treated us well. They told Stana Mitrovic that

9 she would be exchanged. They came to dress her wounds on two occasions.

10 Nobody mistreated us.

11 Q. It's right, isn't it, also that this morning you mentioned -- you

12 injured your jaw and your dentures, I think, were knocked out. But it's

13 right, isn't it, that that happened before you arrived in Srebrenica?

14 A. They beat me when they took me prisoner. And on the way to

15 Poljak, I managed to catch one part of my dentures but not the other part.

16 They beat me on the way to Poljak when they were driving me off towards

17 Poljak.

18 Q. And that was on the very day that you were arrested or detained,

19 wasn't it? On the 16th of January?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And it was near Skelani?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I won't dwell on it. It is obviously upsetting. But it is right,

24 isn't it, that you either know or guessed who did this to you, and it was

25 someone from Dobrak, Sabahudin Omer's son from Dobrak?

1 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

2 Q. The person who did that to you was a local from Dobrak who you

3 recognised, wasn't it?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You can even mention the name if you want.

5 MR. JONES:

6 Q. Yes, it was Sabahudin, the son of Omer, from Dobrak who beat you?

7 A. I think his name was Suljo from Dobrak. He was a short man.

8 Quite short. He beat me. I fell down. It was snowing. There was snow

9 on the ground. And --

10 Q. Sorry if I cut you off. So that was a local. And after that,

11 some of the soldiers who were accompanying you helped you with putting

12 snow in your mouth. That's right, isn't it? They helped you with your

13 wound?

14 A. Yes. That's correct. They put snow on my mouth.

15 Q. And when you were in Srebrenica in the cell, you told us that the

16 food wasn't great. Did you see what the guards were eating, and were they

17 getting anything better than what you were getting as far as you know?

18 A. No, because we didn't go out to see what they were doing. We

19 didn't leave the room. Whenever they had any food, they would bring it to

20 us. If not, they didn't ask for it. We just needed water, and we never

21 asked for bread.

22 Q. And now you mentioned that Stana was treated for her wounds. Did

23 they bring doctors to help her with her injury? I think you mentioned

24 someone came from --

25 A. Yes, they did. They visited her and dressed her wound twice and

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1 recommended her to try and walk, and that then she would be able to go

2 home. Yes, the two men came, and her mother helped her to walk a little

3 bit so that she would become mobile again. In fact, two girls and two

4 young boys came to dress her wounds and left some bandages with her mother

5 to dress her wound because she was bleeding.

6 Q. So they tried to help her, and I think you also said that they

7 gave her more food because she was injured?

8 A. Yes, they did.

9 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned that there was a woman, I think

10 with two children, who had been arrested or detained with you. It's

11 right, isn't it, that she was not in the prison with you, but she was

12 being held in another house with her children?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yes, thank you. And now if I can -- sorry?

15 It will be over soon. You mentioned that on one occasion, one

16 evening you heard what sounded like men being beaten in the cell next to

17 you. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, one evening I heard it. But it didn't happen again.

19 Q. And you didn't see it obviously, did you?

20 A. No, I couldn't see it. We were in our room.

21 Q. So you don't know who on this occasion came in and beat --

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. Do you remember roughly when that --

24 A. I didn't see anyone. I don't remember seeing anyone.

25 Q. Do you remember roughly how long that was after you arrived? Was

1 it within a couple of days or a couple of weeks? Any estimate you can

2 give us.

3 A. That was at about the time when we all came together to that

4 prison, and that happened on only one night.

5 Q. So near the beginning.

6 A. And it never happened again. Yes, we were all together in one

7 room, and they were in the next room.

8 Q. Did you have the impression, given that that only occurred once,

9 never happened again, that was something that was very much disapproved of

10 by the guards, that sort of mistreatment?

11 A. I don't know. I didn't hear anything to that effect. I was

12 petrified, and I was sitting in my corner. I never left that corner and

13 never saw anything.

14 Q. Now, just a few final questions: For certain events in this

15 period, you have quite a good memory, I think it's fair to say. You

16 remember who was with you, where they were wounded, who their relations

17 were. That's right, isn't it? You do recall certain events in detail?

18 Let me withdraw that if that's confusing. Let me put a different

19 question. You told us that Dostana told you that a person -- one of

20 the -- a person who visited once, briefly, was called Naser Colic. That's

21 what you told us this morning. Do you remember when Dostana told you that?

22 Was it when you were in the detention unit, or was it in the detention, or

23 was it later?

24 A. She was already there when we arrived. Dostana and Milosava.

25 They were in this small prison. And she said, although I didn't ask her

1 and I told the other women what I had heard, Milosava.

2 Q. Yes, so just to clarify your reference to the small prison, is

3 that the first prison you went to when you first arrived in Srebrenica,

4 the SUP building? Or was it the building you went to afterwards?

5 A. We came late in the night, around 3.00. It was a small room.

6 There were other women. They went through Kragljivode and Musici to

7 Poljak, and when we arrived in the evening we found this small room full.

8 We were registered, we got warmed up --

9 Q. Let me stop you there. Right. So this small room you're

10 referring to, that's the first -- that's in the first building you came

11 to, what you described as the SUP building? That's where the small room

12 is located?

13 A. Yes, in that building.

14 Q. And that's where you found Dostana already?

15 A. Yes. And Milosava, too.

16 Q. And it was on that occasion Dostana said that a certain person was

17 Naser Colic. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. So when she referred to this person called Naser visiting you,

20 that was in the SUP building, wasn't it, not the second building you went

21 to?

22 A. I never asked her anything. She just told us, and I never asked

23 her who or what he was.

24 Q. That's fine. That's clear. But what I want to clarify with you

25 is that that occurred -- that conversation was in the SUP building, the

1 first building you went to, wasn't it?

2 A. When they brought us there, they registered us. And they sent us

3 back to the room where we spent the night.

4 Q. And then the next day, you went to this building near the

5 municipality building?

6 A. On the Tuesday morning.

7 Q. So just to be absolutely clear, the person called Naser, who was

8 said to be Naser, did not visit you in the building near the municipality

9 building, if it was someone called Naser; he visited you in the SUP

10 building, the first building?

11 A. Perhaps. I can't remember exactly.

12 Q. And you told us, I think, that you did actually glance briefly at

13 this person who was said to be Naser. Is that right?

14 A. Yes, I looked at him.

15 Q. And he was clean shaven, wasn't he? He didn't have a beard? If

16 you could answer, please.

17 A. Yes, he was.

18 Q. He was clean shaven?

19 You said "da," but it wasn't translated. Could you repeat,

20 please, your answer. Loudly.

21 A. Yes, he was all right.

22 MR. JONES: I think we have the answer.

23 Q. And now, do you remember also whether this was during the day that

24 this person who was said to be Naser, that he visited the SUP building?

25 Do you remember what time of day it was?

1 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, she said earlier as a reply to a

2 question by my learned friend "perhaps" to his question whether or not it

3 was at the SUP building, that is someone called Naser paid a visit. And

4 now my learned friend included in his statement a closed statement that

5 indeed it was --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right.

7 MR. WUBBEN: We call it a closed question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Now you are making it categoric to the witness that

9 this visit, if it ever occurred at all, occurred at the SUP building and

10 not the second -- the one in the municipality.

11 MR. JONES: I thought that had been established, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, definitely not. The witness's last

13 answer, the last answer she gave you left it open. She obviously said she

14 wasn't quite sure.

15 MR. JONES: In that case, Your Honours will forgive me if I

16 revisit the issue.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. But don't dwell too long on it, please,

18 Mr. Jones, because it will only make matters worse.

19 MR. JONES: Certainly. I accept that, Your Honour, but it is in

20 fact very important where this person --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll make it myself because I think I can get from

22 her more than you can.

23 Madam Mitrovic, when you arrived there, you were taken first to

24 the SUP building. Correct?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: How long did you stay in the SUP building?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We arrived late in the night, around

3 3.00, and we spent the night in that room after being registered. That

4 was the Monday. And on the Tuesday, we were moved to another room. And

5 they didn't keep us there any longer.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you mentioned that there was this

7 short discussion between you and the other lady about this gentleman

8 Naser. Did this short discussion take place while you were still in the

9 first building, or did it take place when you had already moved to the

10 second building?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were in a big room.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The big room is the second building or the first

13 building?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first one, because after that

15 they didn't move us anyplace else. That's where we remained the whole

16 time.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So this big room, because if you say that you then

18 weren't moved, it can't be the first building. Because from the first

19 building on Tuesday, you were moved to the second building. Was the

20 second building bigger than the first building? The second building was

21 bigger, larger, than the first building?

22 Let's put it like this: In the first building, in the SUP, when

23 you arrived, you only stayed one night there. Correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And then you moved to a second part, to a second

1 building on Tuesday?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and after that, we were never

3 moved anyplace else. That's where we stayed.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So was this discussion about -- when -- during which

5 this other lady told you that Naser had come there, did the discussion

6 take place when you had already moved after Tuesday, in other words, or

7 before Tuesday?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never inquired about him. This

9 woman told it to me herself. I was just sitting on the bench.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You were sitting on the bench. In which room? The

11 first one where you stayed only one night, or the second one where you

12 then stayed for a long time?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one where we stayed longer.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And you can pursue it from there.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We remained longer in that room.

16 MR. JONES: [Previous interpretation continues]... Your Honour.

17 And just staying with this conversation a moment --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I had told you that I had sensed a

19 different -- a different perception from what you had -- of her answers

20 actually. But anyway, let's proceed.

21 MR. JONES:

22 Q. Now, when Dostana told you that a man who had visited very briefly

23 was called Naser, visited the cell, was she referring to someone who had

24 visited you in this second place or who had visited you in the first

25 place?

1 A. No, that was not the first place. She came up there.

2 Q. What I mean --

3 A. She didn't tell us in that room where we were all together. And I

4 never asked her any questions.

5 Q. Let me put it this way: Dostana said to you "that person who

6 visited is called Naser." Now, when she made that remark to you, was she

7 referring to someone who was visiting you in that very cell where you were

8 at that very moment or to someone who had visited you when you were in

9 another location?

10 A. No, she didn't.

11 MR. JONES: I'll move on.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Either move on or I intervene, whichever you prefer.

13 MR. JONES: I'm going to move on, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Jones, please.

15 MR. JONES: I'm staying with the conversation, but not where it

16 took place.

17 Q. Now, do you know where Dostana got that information from? Did she

18 tell you why she claimed to know why this person was called Naser?

19 A. I never heard a thing like that. I was just sitting in my corner

20 crying, and I never asked any questions.

21 Q. So if her information was wrong, if the person wasn't called

22 Naser, you wouldn't know?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Now finally, you were exchanged -- sorry, it's very nearly over.

25 Two more questions. You were exchanged in early February, I think it's

1 right to say. Do you know for whom or for what you were exchanged?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was it for live persons or for dead bodies or what?

4 A. I will tell you what I know. I won't hide anything. They told us

5 that we would be exchanged because they had their people dead down there,

6 and they exchanged us for their killed soldiers. That's how it happened.

7 Q. You live persons were being exchanged for killed. That's right?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Now you also mentioned a volunteer, I think, who was in the van

10 who was wounded. What do you understand by the term "volunteer"? Is that

11 someone --

12 A. I don't know who he was. He was just dead. I didn't know whether

13 he was one of ours or not. He was wrapped in a sheet. I didn't recognise

14 him, what man he was.

15 Q. You were told he was a volunteer. Is that right? I.e., someone

16 from Serbia?

17 A. I didn't ask about it. And nobody told me who he was.

18 Q. Okay. And finally, when you were exchanged, it's right, isn't it,

19 that Zulfo and the other guards had kind words for you? They said if we'd

20 had more bread, we would have given it to you, and we hope that Muslims

21 and Serbs can live together happily in the future. Is that right?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 MR. JONES: No further questions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones. Is there re-examination,

25 Mr. Wubben?

1 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, only one finalisation.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Wubben:

3 Q. A question to you, Witness: You mentioned you were sitting in the

4 corner, petrified. You were crying. Can you clarify to the Judges why

5 you were in --

6 A. Yes, I can. I can clarify. Because I was beaten up. Because my

7 husband had been killed. My house had been set on fire. It's not easy to

8 leave your hearth and home.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben.

10 Yes, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's just that there's a fairly

12 substantial -- new matters in a sense that have arisen. I think I

13 clarified in cross-examination that the beating up of this witness didn't

14 occur in Srebrenica. But as for her house and home --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: There is nothing in the indictment that relates to

16 the beating of this witness. So...

17 MR. JONES: I'm obliged.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Mitrovic, it will soon be over. We have one

19 question from Judge Eser, and then you can go.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ESER: Mrs. Mitrovic, when you have been asked for --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ESER: Mrs. Mitrovic, when you have been asked how you had

24 been treated in this detention, then you told us that "all treated us

25 well." Is that correct?

1 A. Yes, they did. That's correct. Yes.

2 JUDGE ESER: Now, I have a question. When we -- when you spoke

3 about Naser, a man who was called Naser, you mentioned that you have been

4 excited. Why have you been excited?

5 A. Well, I had been beaten up. I had arrived in Srebrenica all

6 confused. I could neither eat nor drink. I was whining and complaining.

7 I'm not accusing anyone.

8 JUDGE ESER: But now this man called Naser or described as Naser

9 was obviously not the only person who came into your room. Now, have you

10 also been excited when other people came?

11 A. Others did come, a certain Salko. Many people came to see us.

12 And then the neighbours of Dostana and Andja, they spoke to us nicely.

13 They didn't mistreat us. They all said we would be exchanged. They were

14 told that we would be exchanged just as we were. I can't say that this

15 man -- that they were talking among themselves.

16 JUDGE ESER: You told us that you have been excited when this man

17 called Naser came. Why have you been excited on this occasion and perhaps

18 not when other people came?

19 A. They would come to see what we were doing.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically, Madam Mitrovic, that means your testimony

21 ends here. I know it hasn't been easy for you even to recall the events

22 that you allege happened to you. On behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge

23 Eser, and on my own behalf, and also on behalf of the entire Tribunal, I

24 would like to thank you for having accepted to come --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- for having accepted to come over and give

2 testimony in this trial.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You will now be assisted by Madam Usher, who is

5 approaching you, to escort you out of the courtroom. And after that, you

6 will receive all the assistance that you need before you are sent back to

7 your country. Our -- the very last thing we want to tell you, apart from

8 thanking you, is also to wish you a safe journey back home.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, too.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I wish to thank also the officer of the Victims and

11 Witnesses Unit for her help. Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So I don't suppose you have the next witness in line

14 here anxious to start giving evidence, Mr. Wubben?

15 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, well, in fact, this morning I learned

16 from lead counsel, Madam Vidovic, that the cross-examination would take

17 one hour and a half, and during the last break I informed again, and it

18 is, of course, not easy to estimate. But now it becomes optimistic, and

19 if I knew that, then I hadn't cancelled the stand by. But now at this

20 very moment, that particular witness is gone. So let's finalise, if

21 Your Honours allow us.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes. Do you have --

23 MR. JONES: My apologies for being shorter.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That happens, because a cross-examination very much

25 varies depending on the answers that you get.

1 MR. WUBBEN: And I agree, Your Honour. No apologies needed

2 because it is an estimations -- do your best, I guess.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Tomorrow, we will have the next witness.

4 I want to make sure -- I received a list of documents you intend to use.

5 Yes. We should make every effort possible to finish this witness tomorrow

6 because keeping this witness here over the weekend, plus Monday, which is

7 a UN holiday, and then into Tuesday would just incur the Tribunal into a

8 lot of unnecessary expense. So I appeal to you to restrict your -- to

9 discuss amongst you how much time you require in the first place and to

10 then divide the time accordingly as per your requirements, but not to

11 extend the end of tomorrow's sitting.

12 Who will be leading? Yes, Ms. Richardson.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: If I may, Your Honour, thank you. With respect

14 to the exhibits for the witness, we would like to add an additional

15 exhibit that we just recently received from the witness today. It's a

16 newspaper article, and we're in the process of having it translated. So

17 we will provide it to both the Defence and to the Court as soon as that is

18 completed.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not ourselves in a hurry for it, but

20 certainly the Defence will be. So they take precedence for sure.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise, do I have your word that you will not put

23 us in a position where we will have to tell you you have this or that much

24 time and at the end of the day we will cut the questioning short.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. I anticipate that the direct

1 will take about an hour and a half.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Vidovic or Mr. Jones? I don't know who

3 will be dealing with this witness.

4 MR. JONES: It will in fact be Madam Vidovic. So it's her

5 estimate that should be needed.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think two hours. I

7 believe that in two hours I will complete my cross-examination.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Basically, that will keep us inside the time

9 allotted for tomorrow's sitting. So, thank you. And we will reconvene

10 tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.02 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of

13 October, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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