Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1163

1 Tuesday, 26 October

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

7 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you.

9 Mr. Oric, good morning to you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow the proceedings in a language you can

12 understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can, Your Honour. I can follow in

14 the language I understand.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

16 Appearances, Prosecution.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

18 lead counsel for the Prosecution team, together with Ms. Patricia Sellers,

19 co-counsel, and our case manager Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.

21 And appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I am

23 Vasvija Vidovic, assisted with Mr. John Jones, Defence counsel for

24 Mr. Naser Oric, together here with us our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina

25 Cosic and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 1164

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.

2 Any preliminaries before we bring in the witness. Yes,

3 Ms. Sellers.

4 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honour. We have two small issues

5 to raise preliminarily. And that would be to inform the Trial Chamber and

6 learned counsel that we will be filing a motion for videolinks today. We

7 would ask the Trial Chamber, if possible, whether they wanted to look at

8 this motion prior to the break or not, but we wanted to file it in enough

9 time that it could be reviewed. We understand that counsel certainly has

10 a certain amount of time in which they're able to file their response, but

11 just to announce that to the Trial Chamber.

12 Also to state to the Trial Chamber. I believe that you're aware

13 of correspondence that we're trying to resolve some of our 92(C) issues

14 that pertain to witnesses whose statements who we would like to present to

15 the Trial Chamber with the necessary omissions provided by Rule

16 92 bis (C). There is one issue concerning the appointment of a doctor, an

17 order to look at one of our proposed candidates. I believe you're aware

18 of that correspondence. It appears to me we need to finalise a decision

19 on that. And I think Your Honour is also aware that we still have the

20 issue of whether the person who is confirmed to be deceased is considered

21 to be legally deceased by the Defence. We would just ask Your Honours in

22 light of us trying to not only formulate our witness list but to be able

23 to offer a schedule of witnesses that would be appropriate for the

24 presentation of the Prosecution case and to facilitate the Victim Witness

25 Unit and having them come up that we could appreciate if we could have

Page 1165

1 some resolutions on some of the issues that are before you.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We, Mr. Wubben.

4 MR. WUBBEN: And in addition for today, an issue I discussed with

5 Madam Vidovic this morning, upon your request. The time to be allotted to

6 Prosecution for examination and the Defence for their cross, we agreed

7 upon two hours, including this opening for the Prosecution, and one hour

8 and 55 minutes - I know it is some arithmetic - including the break, but

9 one hour and 55 minutes for the Defence. Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So. I see that you are heeding our advice, and

11 that's good to know. Let's not waste or lose -- not waste - sorry - lose

12 more time. Let's get the witness in and get moving.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Eric, and welcome to this

15 Tribunal.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: My name is Judge Carmel Agius. I come from Malta,

18 and I am presiding over this trial against Naser Oric together with Judge

19 Hans Henrik Brydensholt on my right and Judge Albin Eser on my left.

20 Judge Brydensholt comes from Denmark and Judge Eser comes from Germany.

21 Again once more, we welcome you. You are about to start giving evidence

22 very soon, and before you do so our Rules require that you enter a solemn

23 declaration equivalent to an oath, in the sense that in the course of your

24 testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

25 the truth. The text of this solemn declaration is contained on a piece of

Page 1166

1 paper that you are being given now. Please read it out loud and that will

2 be your solemn undertaking with us.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Please take a chair. And I'll

6 explain to you what's going to happen. You are -- hopefully we will do

7 our utmost to finish with your testimony today so that you can go back to

8 your home and to your work. You were first --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Turn it up please. I can't hear.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You are first going to be asked a series of

11 questions by Madam Sellers, who I presume you have already met and she

12 then will be followed by Madam Vidovic, who is lead counsel for accused

13 Naser Oric.

14 May I just remind you you are a professional man and for me it

15 becomes easier to explain this. You have a responsibility under your oath

16 to speak the truth and the whole truth, not only when you are being asked

17 questions by the Prosecutor, who has summoned you here as a witness, but

18 also when you are being asked questions by the Defence counsel. Your

19 responsibility does not change. In other words, you don't have a right to

20 discriminate in favour or against one of the parties.

21 Yes, Ms. Sellers, please proceed.

22 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And on the basics you can go direct, who he is, when

24 what he does, et cetera.

25 MS. SELLERS: I was just about to ask permission could I lead him

Page 1167

1 in the interest of time.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are granting you permission straight away.

3 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Ms. Sellers:

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Eric.

8 A. [In English] Good morning.

9 Q. Would you please confirm that, Mr. Eric, you were born in Serbia I

10 believe in 1964, you were raised in the village of Kravica in the

11 municipality of Bratunac. Is that correct?

12 A. [In English] Yes.

13 Q. And are you ethnically a Bosnian Serb.

14 A. [In English] Serbian. Serb, yes.

15 Q. You studied medical technology in Tuzla and then worked as a

16 medical technician in the Bratunac health centre between 1987 and 1992.

17 A. Completed the higher medical school in Tuzla, section for

18 laboratory technicians, and I worked from 1987 to 1992 until the outbreak

19 of the war.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

21 A. [In English] Yes.

22 Q. And then did you decide to return to Kravica 1992?

23 A. [In English] Yes.

24 Q. Now, the village of Kravica, it's situated in a valley, isn't it,

25 Mr. Eric?

Page 1168

1 A. [In English] Yes.

2 Q. And does the main road that passes by Kravica lead to the north

3 toward Zvornik or to the north-east towards Tuzla and does it lead in the

4 south-east direction to the town of Bratunac?

5 A. [In English] Yes.

6 Q. Also, I'd like to ask you, are the Bosnian Serb hamlets of

7 Jezestica, Siljkovici, Batkovici, Obradici, and Djermani located in the

8 hills above and surrounding Kravica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it mainly a Bosnian Serb town?

11 A. [In English] Yes.

12 Q. Could you also confirm for Your Honours that in 1992 Kravica was a

13 village of about 600 inhabitants?

14 A. [Interpretation] Around about.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues]... from Bratunac with your

16 immediate family?

17 A. [In English] Yes.

18 Q. Did your grandparents in 1992 live in Kravica?

19 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

20 Q. I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber what type of work

21 did you do upon your work to Kravica.

22 A. I started working in the infirmary as a medical technician. In

23 fact, before that time the doctor and the nurse used to come there once or

24 twice a week. After the outbreak of the war that stopped and then when I

25 returned to Kravica I continued in that job that I used to do before.

Page 1169

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that counsel should wear

2 headphones and watch out for the interpretation so we don't overlap.

3 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. I would like to note that there is a

4 problem with my interpretation. It is going up and down. So could I just

5 be given one second please -- oh, now it's in.

6 Q. Mr. Eric, could you please describe precisely what did the clinic

7 in Kravica look like.

8 A. It is a smaller building. It had one room as a pharmacy, one

9 examination for the doctor, and a larger room that was a kind of surgery,

10 where smaller minor surgeries were performed, shots were given, et cetera.

11 Q. Did you work in the clinic with other doctors?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Who worked with you in the clinic, Mr. Eric?

14 A. I was alone.

15 Q. Was there a Mr. Tomic who worked there?

16 A. Marko Tomic was a driver.

17 Q. And did he drive for the clinic?

18 A. He did.

19 Q. Mr. Eric, were you aware that there was a general mobilisation

20 when you left Bratunac and returned to Kravica?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As a result of that mobilisation, did you receive any weapons such

23 as a gun or a rifle?

24 A. No.

25 Q. As a result of that mobilisation, did you receive a uniform?

Page 1170

1 A. No.

2 Q. And as a result of that mobilisation, did you report to a

3 commanding officer for duty?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So when you returned to Kravica to work in the medical clinic, you

6 did not return to Kravica necessarily as a member of an armed forces that

7 worked at the medical. Is that correct?

8 A. Correct. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Eric, were there tensions between Muslims and Serbs in the

10 municipality of Bratunac?

11 A. Yes, there were.

12 Q. Do you know of villages or hamlets where Muslims were expelled

13 from in April, May, or June 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know of villages or hamlets where Serbs were expelled from

16 during that same period?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Eric, is it because of the tensions in the surrounding area of

19 Kravica that your wife and children decided to leave Kravica?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And likewise, as a result of the tension did villagers in Kravica

22 organise a village guard?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Eric, would you please tell the Trial Chamber whether the

25 members of the village guard were regular members of the armed forces or

Page 1171

1 not.

2 A. No.

3 Q. No, does that mean that they were not members of the armed forces?

4 A. No.

5 Q. To your knowledge -- I'm sorry. My interpretation is down again.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, we are not having the -- we are not

7 encountering the problem. At least let me speak for myself. I am not

8 encountering a problem.

9 Judge Eser, are you having problems with the interpretation?

10 MS. SELLERS: Okay, I'm fine again. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Please draw my attention as soon as there is a

12 repetition because there could be some technical hitch or something.

13 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. If necessary, then you can -- so that we

15 don't lose time.

16 MS. SELLERS: Switch microphones.

17 Q. Mr. Eric, I would like to ask you: Did the village guard in

18 Kravica and in the surrounding hamlets set up a line of defence?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. SELLERS: I would ask the usher to please show Mr. Eric

21 Prosecution Exhibit, this is the one for Mr. Eric, it's a map.

22 Your Honours, I'm going to ask that this map be tendered but I

23 would ask Mr. Eric to make a couple markings on the map prior to that and

24 then I will ask for the number so it can be put in evidence.

25 Q. Okay. Mr. Eric, I believe you will have to look at the map on the

Page 1172

1 ELMO, that's to your left next to the usher. Could I please ask you to

2 look that way.

3 A. [In English] Okay.

4 Q. And would you place an "X" on the village of Kravica.

5 A. [Witness complies].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Please put that "X" in a circle.


8 Q. Please draw a circle around the "X."

9 A. [Witness complies].

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And to the right of that circle, could you

11 please put your initials. Or just below it. Just below it where there is

12 that open space.

13 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


16 Q. Fine. You have testified that there was a line of village

17 guards. And did the line include the village or the hamlet of Siljkovici.

18 A. [In English] Yes.

19 Q. Could you mark on the map where Siljkovici is.

20 A. [Witness complies].

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, would you want him to put an S for

22 each name of a town that is different? We might run into a little bit of

23 alphabetical difficulties.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you turn that "X" into a star, please. So that

25 we don't have two Xs. Yeah, okay. No, no, no. The other one leave it as

Page 1173

1 it is.

2 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record we now have a star denoting the

4 location of Siljkovici.


6 Q. Mr. Eric, did the line of defence also include the hamlet of

7 Mijina Bara which is above Jezestica.

8 A. [In English] Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Now would you please mark that with a "J."

10 A. [Witness complies].

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But you need to put a "Y" or a "J".


13 Q. Could you mark a "J" there.



16 Q. And did the defence line also include the hamlet of Djermani?

17 A. [In English] Djermani, yes.

18 Q. Could you please put a "G" where Djermani is.

19 A. [Witness complies].

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And your initials, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].


23 Q. Also, did the defence line include the hamlet of Magasici.

24 A. [In English] Magasici, yes.

25 Q. Please mark an "M" there with your initials.

Page 1174

1 A. [Witness complies].

2 Q. Did the defence line also include the hamlet of Mandici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Also please mark that with "MA" and your initials, please.

5 A. [Witness complies].

6 Q. Did the defence line also include the hamlet of Popovici?

7 A. [In English] Yes.

8 Q. Will you please mark that with a "P" and your initials.

9 A. [Witness complies].

10 Q. And did the defence line include Banjevici?

11 A. [In English] Yes.

12 Q. Please mark that with a "BV" and your initials.

13 A. [Witness complies].

14 Q. Did the defence line also include Brana Bacici?

15 A. English Brana Bacici, yes.

16 Q. Could you mark that.

17 A. [Witness complies].

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you put "BB."

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

20 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


23 Q. Did the defence line also include Donja Bacici?

24 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

25 Q. Could you please mark "DB" and your initials.

Page 1175

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Why did you put it there and not at 5.00 o'clock?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's approximately. I don't know

3 how to find my way around the map precisely but this is approximately it.



6 Q. Mr. Eric, do you see that mark on the map a little bit to the

7 lower right-hand side from where you were? Do you see that? Could you

8 answer yes or no, please.

9 A. [No interpretation].

10 Q. Okay. I would now ask you, was the hamlet of Jezero included in

11 the line of defence?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. Would you please mark that on the map --

14 A. Here it is.

15 Q. Could you mark "JV" and then initial, please.

16 A. [Witness complies].

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


19 Q. Thank you.

20 Now, Mr. Eric, this line of defence, was this a line that was

21 constructed and ordered to attack, or was this a line that was constructed

22 and ordered to defend the villages and hamlets that we've just mentioned?

23 A. [No interpretation].

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I did not receive interpretation of his reply.

25 MS. SELLERS: Could I ask the witness the question again?

Page 1176

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please, Ms. Sellers.


3 Q. Mr. Eric, would you please inform the Trial Chamber whether this

4 line of defence that you have just drawn and the villages included, was

5 that a line of defence in order to mount attacks or in order to defend the

6 villages and hamlets that we just spoke about?

7 A. To defend them, to defend them.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, would you tell me about how many village guards

9 manned these defence lines.

10 A. About four, 500, perhaps more. Maybe 350. I don't know the exact

11 number.

12 Q. And would they be on the defence line 24 hours a day at all times

13 or do they work in shifts?

14 A. In shifts. If there were 27 people in Siljkovici, for example, 10

15 or 15 were on the line and half of them were resting. They would change

16 places.

17 Q. Did you yourself ever go up to the line of defence to stand guard?

18 A. No. Maybe I did go once, put I didn't -- I didn't really go. I

19 wasn't part of the guard duty.

20 Q. I would ask you to look at the map again and to answer the

21 following question: Were there any gaps or weak spots in the line of

22 defence that you have drawn for us? Would you please look at the map and

23 tell us were there any weak spots and where were they.

24 A. Yes. There were some near Hranca, in this part, and there were

25 some at Kostan above Siljkovici. These are Bare around here somewhere.

Page 1177

1 It wasn't linked. And also this part here -- of course this part here was

2 facing towards the Drina river.

3 Q. Could I please ask Mr. Eric to mark on the map --

4 A. [In English] Sorry.

5 Q. That's okay. Where Hranca and Kostan and then the third area you

6 just testified about. Could you please mark that with the first

7 letter --

8 A. Hranca. And which mark should I use?

9 Q. "H" is fine, with your initials.

10 A. [Witness complies].

11 Q. And then you mentioned Kostani?

12 A. Kostani, yes, it's around here. It's somewhere on the map but I

13 don't know where it is.

14 Q. And then you mentioned a third area.

15 A. There was no need to close it there, because the way out was

16 towards the Drina, Ocavici [phoen], Banjevici, towards Sopotnik. There

17 were no Muslim villages behind that.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would seek now to tender the map

20 into evidence. I believe that we do need a number for it.

21 MR. JONES: Just one matter, Your Honour. We would appreciate

22 clarification of what these lines are on the map because we were a bit

23 puzzled by them.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And we saw them on another map that we had

25 available last week actually --

Page 1178

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I might be able to enlighten you

2 literally. I understand those are utility lines, that they are lines

3 dealing with electrical installations. And I would like to certainly

4 assure learned counsel and Your Honours they will not be part of our

5 testimony. We are in no way indicating that they represent something that

6 is at this point relevant to our presentation of the evidence.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with that, Mr. Jones?

8 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be exhibit number?


11 JUDGE AGIUS: P396, thank you.


13 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, is it correct that you continued to work at the

14 clinic in Kravica from the month of May and throughout the month of July?

15 A. [In English] Yes.

16 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what types of patients did

17 you receive at the clinic and what types of medical treatment did you have

18 to perform.

19 A. In the beginning these were civilians and soldiers. And then

20 later when the fighting started and when the conflict became more intense,

21 there were more and more wounded. These were wounded people who were

22 injured in the places where fighting was going on, in the different places

23 where fighting was going on.

24 Q. Were you aware of the fighting that took place in Glogova in May

25 1992?

Page 1179

1 A. Yes, I was.

2 Q. Thank you. Did you treat anyone from that fighting at your

3 clinic?

4 A. Yes, there was one wounded person. Yes, I applied bandages and he

5 was released.

6 Q. Did you yourself take part in the fighting in Glogova in May 1992?

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. In July of 1992, did you receive a call at the clinic for medical

9 assistance to go near Glogova?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And did you go there with your colleague, Mr. Tomic?

12 A. Yes, I did. I went there because I was told that we had one

13 wounded person and one dead person -- one seriously wounded person. Tomic

14 and I went together with Slavko Nikolic, Milan Nikolic and two other men

15 to take care of these people, and they brought them in.

16 Q. And were the wounded person and the dead person, were these people

17 who had participated in some kind of military action?

18 A. No, no. They did not. I think some explosive device, a bomb, was

19 thrown into their trench on the line that they were defending.

20 Q. So did you and Mr. Tomic then take the person to the Bratunac

21 medical centre, the same centre where you had worked previously?

22 A. Yes. All of us, all the people that I mentioned took that person,

23 the wounded person, to Bratunac and handed him over.

24 Q. And after you handed the person over at the Bratunac medical

25 centre, did you, your driver, and the other people you've mentioned return

Page 1180

1 toward the direction of Glogova?

2 A. Yes. We were returning back to Kravica, passing through Glogova.

3 Q. And were you ambushed on the way back?

4 A. Yes. We were ambushed at the entrance to Glogova. I can show you

5 that on the map.

6 Q. Right. We'll do that in second. I'd like you to explain first to

7 Your Honours how the ambush took place.

8 A. We were going back in the car, Marko Tomic was driving and the

9 rest of us were sitting in the car. We were returning to Magasici in

10 order to take over this dead person so that we could make all the burial

11 arrangements. But at the entrance of Glogova on the left side as you come

12 from Bratunac, they opened fire on us. Marko Tomic was wounded, I

13 wounded, Slavko Nikolic was wounded, Milan Nikolic was wounded, the person

14 who was sitting in front of me was killed, and the person who was sitting

15 next to Marko Tomic was not injured. We continued on our way towards

16 Kravica.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. SELLERS: I would now ask the usher to please show Mr. Eric

19 Prosecution Exhibit, I believe it's been marked 394 from our previous use.

20 I would like to tell the Trial Chamber that I'm going to ask Mr. Eric to

21 mark on this map also and then we'll have to ask for another number before

22 we tender it into evidence.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, Ms. Sellers, while we do the

24 administrative part, together with the statement that supposedly the

25 witness released -- made to the Prosecution, to the Office of the

Page 1181

1 Prosecutor, there is also another statement dated supposedly 5th of

2 February, 1994, with a sequitur dated February 1994, a supplementary

3 statement, supposedly released to the government Ministry of the Interior,

4 Sarajevo security, but this is not the same person?

5 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. I would like to inform you that is

6 not the same person. In an abundance of caution, since it has the same

7 name, we provided it. But if one would look at the birth dates, and if

8 one would actually look at some of the contents, it is not the same

9 person.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The parents' names are different, date of birth is

11 different, and the events also are different. So I just wanted to bring

12 this up. And, Mr. Jones, I mean, we are definitely not even looking at

13 those other statements because we take it they are not the same ones, they

14 are not from the same person.

15 MR. JONES: Yes, that's what we concluded.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I was under the impression that someone had

19 marked -- put markings on P394. We already have --

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I understand that possibly one of the

21 previous Prosecution witnesses might have marked on this map. We're more

22 than willing now to offer the map that Mr. Eric will use as a new exhibit

23 because he also will mark on it and to just give it a different

24 identification and tender it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. I am under the impression,

Page 1182

1 like Ms. Sellers, that someone -- one of the witnesses did put some marks

2 on that, but I may be wrong. Let's proceed. I mean, it seems that the

3 map that the registrar has doesn't contain any markings on it. So we can

4 either use that, or if you prefer to tender the big map that Madam Usher

5 is holding in her hands --

6 MS. SELLERS: I would prefer --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We can proceed with that.

8 MS. SELLERS: I would prefer the bigger map, Your Honour --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And that would be 398.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be 397.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: 397. Thank you.

12 MS. SELLERS: Okay.

13 Q. Okay. Mr. Eric, you see the map that is in front of you now.

14 Could you please for purposes of simplicity, please mark Kravica again on

15 that map with a "K."

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Does he need to mark it? Just point at it. Don't

17 write anything there. Just point at Kravica, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And for the record the Chamber notices that

20 the witness has pointed at Kravica on the map.

21 MS. SELLERS: Right. Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. I would ask now, Mr. Eric -- please don't mark anything on the map

23 now, Mr. Eric.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Please don't put anything on the map until or unless

25 we tell you or ask you.

Page 1183












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1184

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already did put a mark on it.


3 Q. I would like you to show the Trial Chamber what is the road that

4 you and Mr. Tomic took in the van to arrive at Kravica to where you picked

5 up the wounded person.

6 A. From Bratunac through Repovac, Hranca, Glogova, and then this is a

7 place called Avdagina Njiva, up the hill. Magasici is to the left. We did

8 not reach Magasici because we were wounded on that road, here.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues]... excuse me, first I want you to

10 show the road between Kravica and Bratunac that you took. Starting with

11 Kravica, please. Yes, you can mark on the map.

12 A. Kravica. Yes, it's here. I am marking it.

13 Q. Now, where did you --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness has marked in black over

15 what appeared to be a road leading -- on the map leading from Kravica to

16 Glogova and from Glogova to Bratunac.


18 Q. Would you please indicate where you picked up the wounded person

19 on that road on your way to Bratunac.

20 A. Somewhere around here, near Magasici. Somewhere about here, as

21 far as I can find my way on the map.

22 Q. Would you please mark an "M" at that spot with your initials,

23 please.

24 A. [Witness complies].

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Eric.

Page 1185


2 Q. Now, coming back from Bratunac on your way back to Kravica, would

3 you please indicate on the map where the ambush took place.

4 A. We were returning from Bratunac. We passed through Repovac,

5 Hranca. At the entrance to Glogova there is a bridge there. I don't know

6 if I will indicate it precisely on the map, but it was somewhere around

7 here, the place where we were wounded. That's where the ambush was. On

8 the left side, as you're going from Bratunac to Kravica.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. For the record, the witness indicates the

10 spot where the ambush, according to his version, took place by means of a

11 black square which crosses the road that leads from Bratunac to Glogova

12 and against which he put his initials "CE."

13 Could you put your initials, please, against that black square.

14 Thank you.

15 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.


17 Q. Now, the place you have mentioned, Hranca, is that one of the weak

18 spots on the defensive lines that you testified about earlier today,

19 Mr. Eric?

20 A. Yes. Ambushes were set up in that place before and also after I

21 was wounded. This was a place -- there's a creek there and we would --

22 never managed quite to -- because of this creek, this is where they passed

23 through and entered Glogova. There was shooting on the 2nd of July and

24 also there was another ambush in August after I was wounded in the same

25 place.

Page 1186

1 Q. Will you please mark where Hranca is on this map.

2 A. "R."

3 Q. Yes, please. With your initials.

4 A. [Witness complies].

5 Q. Now, when you stated that they would often attack or have

6 ambushes, who are you referring to when you state "they"?

7 A. Muslims. I think these were soldiers, Muslims, members of these

8 Muslim units. I don't know what they were called at the time.

9 Q. Now, did you and Mr. Tomic and the other men in the van return to

10 Kravica after the ambush?

11 A. Yes, we did.

12 Q. Excuse me. Were you then taken to Bratunac and later removed to a

13 hospital?

14 A. No, no, no. We were not able to because there was an ambush in

15 that part. There was no way to go back. We -- can I explain to you where

16 we had to go in order to reach a place where we would be given medical

17 treatment? It's almost 40 kilometres away -- I'm not sure if it's 40

18 kilometres but...

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... show Your Honours on the map.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: He could just indicate to us where he went and

21 that's it and then we will --

22 MS. SELLERS: Yes, that's fine, Your Honour.

23 Q. Could you indicate to Your Honours where you went after our

24 injuries.

25 A. Opravdici, Popovici, Ocenovici, Banjevici, Sopotnik. And then

Page 1187

1 along the Drina, all this way to Bratunac.

2 Q. So it's your testimony that you had to take this road along the

3 Drina to get back to Bratunac. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would ask now that the usher remove

6 the map.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


9 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, were you hospitalised in Serbia because of the

10 wounds that you received in the ambush?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 MS. SELLERS: I would ask the usher now to hand Mr. Eric

13 exhibit -- I believe there are copies that have been provided. I would

14 apologise that we don't have a translation of the exhibit, but I believe

15 that it will be fairly self-explanatory. It can be seen on Sanction.

16 Q. Mr. Eric, do you recognise this document?

17 A. Yes. This is my release form when I was released from the

18 hospital -- discharge certificate.

19 Q. Did you give the Prosecution a copy of this hospital form last

20 week?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is this an exact copy of that form?

23 A. Yes. This is something that can be checked in Loznica. They

24 probably have that in their records.

25 Q. Now, you stated that you were in Loznica. Now, Loznica is located

Page 1188

1 in which country?

2 A. In Serbia.

3 Q. So was it common practice that the hospitals in Serbia would

4 receive and treat the wounded from Bosnia during this time period?

5 A. Well, since we only had the Zvornik hospital where wounded could

6 be treated as in-patients, as the conflict was becoming more and more

7 intense, this hospital could not deal with all of the wounded. So they

8 had to be sent to Loznica, Belgrade. Those people from Skelani had to go

9 to -- all the way to Uzeci [phoen] and Valjevo, because in Skelani they

10 didn't even have an in-patient ward.

11 Q. If you look at the form, would you confirm to Your Honours the

12 dates of your stay in the hospital in Serbia.

13 A. From the 28th of July, 1992, until the 10th of August, 1992.

14 Q. And what was the date of -- that the ambush took place, Mr. Eric?

15 A. On the 28th of July, 1992, the same day that I was admitted to

16 hospital.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. SELLERS: I would ask to have this marked, given a number, and

19 I would ask to tender this into evidence, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So this would be 398, no? This is 398,

21 please, P398.


23 Q. Mr. Eric, did you give an interview to the Office of the

24 Prosecution in April of 2001?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1189

1 Q. In that interview, did you tell the investigators about the ambush

2 that took place near Hranca?

3 A. Yes. Mr. Gamini was the gentleman who came. Yes.

4 Q. Are the facts that you've testified about today before Your

5 Honours the facts that you remember concerning the ambush that took place

6 on the 28th of July, 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, when you left the hospital in Serbia, did you learn

9 that the hamlet of Jezestica had been attacked?

10 A. Yes. I heard that from people who were exposed to this attack.

11 They told me about it. They said that the village was attacked on that

12 day, that the neighbours, Muslims, attacked them, and that about -- I

13 don't know the exact number of how many people were killed that day. But

14 Hanjel Komlajenovic [phoen] had had his head cut off that day. This is

15 what they told me. This is a person who was a year younger than I am, and

16 he went to school with my brother. He was born in 1965. This is all I

17 that found out about this attack.

18 Q. Did you learn which forces attacked the hamlet of Jezestica?

19 A. Yes. These neighbours, Muslim neighbours, from around there.

20 They recognised some of them, the people who were attacked recognised that

21 there were some people there from Jaglici, Cizmici and other villages

22 around there.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, when you say the word "neighbours," does that mean

24 these people were not part of a fighting force, that they were just

25 neighbours from the next village?

Page 1190

1 A. They were part of the forces, yes, but they were also neighbours.

2 People recognised them. These villages bordered one another.

3 Q. Did you learn at any time about the troop strength, the numbers of

4 the Muslim forces that were engaged in this attack?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you hear at any time of who was considered, if anyone, to be

7 the commander of the Muslim forces that either ambushed you in Glogova or

8 that attacked Jezestica?

9 A. No. Except that there was talk and it was said on radio and TV

10 that it was Naser Oric. But we didn't have any reliable information, no.

11 Q. So this was just information that was basically a type of common

12 knowledge. Is that correct, Mr. Eric?

13 A. Yes, yes, something like that.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Eric, between July and December of 1992 did

15 you continue to work at the clinic?

16 A. Yes, I did. When I recovered from my wounds, I continued to work,

17 yes.

18 Q. Now, during the course of your working months at the clinic in

19 Kravica, did you know a Jovan Nikolic?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. What role, if any, did Jovan Nikolic have in the organisation of

22 the village guards in Kravica?

23 A. I don't know. Once the combat operations started, a group of

24 people came to our village or gathered in our village who were military

25 officers or people who had a good reputation among the Serbian people in

Page 1191

1 order to organise defence of the village and all of the things that go

2 along with that. And he was one of -- he was a member of that group. He

3 was one of those people.

4 Q. Did you have meetings with Jovan Nikolic at the elementary school

5 in Kravica?

6 A. Yes. We met two or three times.

7 Q. So would you state that you attended these meetings on a regular

8 basis or is two or three times a rather small set of meetings compared to

9 the meetings that were held?

10 A. Yes, two or three times.

11 Q. So does that mean it was on a regular basis?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Eric, is Jovan Nikolic related to you?

14 A. He is a close relative. In fact, he is my uncle, my father's

15 brother.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Eric, in 1992, November precisely, was the Kravica

17 Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade formed?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If he is his father's brother, how is it that his

19 family name is not Eric and it's Nikolic?

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have not inquired into those types of

21 relations. I've asked --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain that. He's actually

23 not my father's brother; he is a cousin. He is a cousin. They are not

24 sons of the same mother. No, that's not what I meant to say.


Page 1192


2 Q. Mr. Eric, turning your attention to November of 1992, was the

3 Kravica Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade formed at that time?

4 A. That's not the way I would put it. That unit looked like a

5 battalion at that time in November.

6 Q. Well, as a result of the formation of the unit of the battalion,

7 how did things change in terms of how the village guard functioned?

8 A. Perhaps a little better, but mainly the same.

9 Q. Did you receive more uniforms, for example?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you receive more weapons or heavy machinery?

12 A. No. No, we had to do with what we had.

13 Q. Well, at the medical clinic, did you receive at least more medical

14 supplies?

15 A. Oh, that we did. I went to that meeting of that so-called group,

16 whatever you want to call it, I don't know what name to put on it, to

17 inquire about medical equipment and vehicles that we needed. At that time

18 a man from Holland donated a van with medication.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. SELLERS: I would ask the usher now to hand Mr. Eric another

21 form that Your Honour has not been tendered into evidence. I would ask

22 for a number so we could pre-identify it for the future. This form has

23 been translated into English.

24 Have you handed Mr. Eric the form?


Page 1193


2 Q. Mr. Eric, do you recognise this document that's in front of you?

3 A. Yes. This is a decision to recognise my wartime service, the time

4 I spent with the army during the war.

5 Q. Did you give the Prosecution a copy of the original document last

6 week?

7 A. I provided the original.

8 Q. Yes. And is this an exact copy of that original that you gave

9 the Prosecution?

10 A. Yes, it is. It is.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, on this form on the bottom of the first page it

12 states that you spent a total of four years and 12 days participating in

13 the Yugoslav armed forces of the Republika Srpska. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It also states that five months -- further down on the bottom of

16 the page, that five months were outside the zone of combat and that 43

17 months were within the zone of combat. Is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Is the time that we have been speaking about this morning

20 considered part of the time that was within the zone of combat?

21 A. Yes. But these five months, that was the 30th April, 1996. It

22 was before the Dayton Accord. It's just that the combat operations had

23 seized and there was an interim period before I started working in my

24 company again.

25 Q. So, Mr. Eric, with this document is it correct that even though

Page 1194

1 you were not issued uniforms or weapons or that you reported directly to a

2 commander, during the period that we've spoken about this morning, that

3 Republika Srpska, for purposes of disability, will recognise this as a

4 period of service?

5 A. This is a document which proves that I had been in the army, and I

6 don't use it for other purposes than to calculate and benefit from a

7 pension.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, it's not that important, but

9 just for the record I noticed that in the original, Ms. Sellers, on the

10 left top part where it says -- after the reference Bratunac, it's 20

11 February, and then it's 2001 on the printed form. But there is a number 2

12 typewritten which hints the possibility that this document goes back to

13 2002 and not to 2001. I don't know. I mean, it's ...

14 MS. SELLERS: I note where Your Honour is referring to.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it can be 20th February, 2001, because

17 if you go further down the page on the original it refers to a date, which

18 is the 16th of August, 2001, which purportedly is when the witness made

19 his request. So I mean, just for the record, I think it's the case of

20 altering the text of the translation to read 20th February, 2002, instead

21 of 20th February, 2001.

22 MS. SELLERS: That is noted, Your Honour. We will alter that text

23 and recirculate it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record. It's not going to change

25 anything, but just to make sure everything is no order.

Page 1195

1 MS. SELLERS: Right.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise is there -- are there any remarks on the

3 part of the Defence on this document? If I don't take any remarks or a

4 position from your side, I take that there is none and I admit the

5 document. That's the procedure that I adopt, okay? That we adopt,

6 rather.

7 Let's proceed.

8 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just ask that this

9 now be given a number and this becomes Prosecution Exhibit...

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 399.


12 Q. Mr. Eric, were you -- did you hold any rank, any formal rank,

13 during the time period that we have discussed today between April and

14 November of 1992 within any army formation?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. Fine. Mr. Eric, were you a member of the SDS political party in

17 1992?

18 A. Well, it's possible that I feature somewhere on their lists, but I

19 was never a front line member of the SDS. But I was a Serb in 1992, and

20 that implied that I would be in the ranks of the SDS. I don't know if

21 there were any exceptions, but not in our area. If you were a Muslim you

22 were in SDA; if you were a Serb, you were in SDS. I was in the first

23 post-war list of nominees for the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, and I

24 was a partisan of that party, a supporter.

25 Q. Right. Mr. Eric, could I also ask you that during the same time

Page 1196

1 period that we're speaking of today, 1992, were you a member of the Crisis

2 Staff in Kravica?

3 A. If you look in terms of establishment, if you call it the Crisis

4 Staff, then yes. Although I was there only in terms of establishment

5 formally because units, starting with the platoon with every army, have

6 within their organisation a person who is in charge of medical affairs.

7 And since this was at the level of battalion or beyond in terms of

8 establishment you had to have that position.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sellers.

10 Was it municipal Crisis Staff or was it a SDS Crisis Staff?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was talking about the military

12 headquarters, military head staff -- military staff in Kravica. I was

13 never in the municipal SDS as far as politicals are concerned.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm referring to the Crisis Staff. There was a

15 Crisis Staff --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can call it the Crisis

17 Staff. We can call it that.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


20 Q. I believe Your Honour wanted to know: Were you in the Crisis

21 Staff in the village of Kravica or in the municipality of Bratunac? Did

22 you belong to a Crisis Staff in Kravica or in the municipality of

23 Bratunac?

24 A. Only for the village of Kravica. In terms of establishment, I was

25 part of that Crisis Staff, if you wish to call it that.

Page 1197

1 Q. And is it because that you had training as a medical laboratory

2 technician and that you worked at the clinic that you were part of this

3 member of the Crisis Staff in Kravica?

4 A. A moment ago I said that every military unit, and everybody who

5 served in the army knows this, every unit from the lowest to the highest

6 level has within its composition certain personnel in charge of medical

7 affairs and medical service. And I was that medical man, if you want to

8 accept the term that was common in our environment.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We may not be fine-tuned. I'm not convinced as yet

11 that he is strictly speaking referring to a Crisis Staff.

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it could be --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the notion of a Crisis Staff as we have

14 heard it in this Tribunal from one case to another has been pretty

15 uniform. The witness is -- in my opinion, may be confusing the notion of

16 a Crisis Staff with something that to him is equivalent to a Crisis Staff

17 but which to us is not exactly what is a Crisis Staff.

18 Who else was on this Crisis Staff?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had in mind the people who were

20 dealing with organising the defence of the village. Those are the people

21 I meant. Do you understand me now?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Was the head of the police of Kravica on the Crisis

23 Staff?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no police in Kravica.

25 There was no police.

Page 1198

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Was there a representative of the police in -- on

2 the Crisis Staff?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no way. People from the village

4 organised themselves to defend the village and made up a group that was in

5 charge, that led the defence of the village. You can call them what you

6 want.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was in charge -- who was presiding over this

8 Crisis Staff?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was nobody at the head.

10 Everybody together managed it. There was my 70-plus old grandfather who

11 was part of that Crisis Staff because he had participated in the Second

12 World War and had some knowledge and some skills. So we're not talking

13 here about an organised unit with, you know, men or ...

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But the Crisis Staffs were something that were

15 contemplated under your law, under your system, to become operative in

16 moments of crisis, like when there is an earthquake, for example, or like

17 when there is a war. Was this an organised Crisis Staff or was it just an

18 informal Crisis Staff.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an informal Crisis Staff. I

20 had never heard of it before as having been established and awaiting the

21 beginning.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Who asked you to be part of this Crisis Staff?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody asked me. They put me on

24 that list and twice or thrice I went to attend the meeting, and they just

25 asked me questions of my area of expertise, the provision of medical

Page 1199

1 services.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Who are they?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, these people. For instance,

4 my grandfather, that Jovan Nikolic. There was a turnover of people. Some

5 got killed. There was Raso Milosevic, for instance.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And where were meetings held?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the schoolhouse.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Sellers.

9 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour, for that clarification.

10 Q. I would now like to draw your attention, Mr. Eric, to the 24th of

11 December, 1992.

12 MS. SELLERS: Again, I would ask Your Honours could I lead the

13 witness during part of this background information so that we may be able

14 to proceed as rapidly as possible.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones or Ms. Vidovic?

16 MR. JONES: Well, I think if it's approached with caution. We

17 can't obviously give a blanket agreement.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Eric, was the village of Glogova attacked on the 24th of

21 December, 1992?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was there any fighting in that village on December 24th, 1992?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Mr. Eric, in May of 1992, was the village of Glogova the scene of

Page 1200

1 fighting, as you testified earlier?

2 A. Yes, minor fighting.

3 Q. And at that time were there Muslims who were expelled from the

4 village of Glogova?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And on December 24th, 1992, did fighting in the village of Glogova

7 occur between Muslim forces and Serb forces?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber: To your knowledge, which

10 forces attacked the village of Glogova on the 24th of December, 1992.

11 A. It was attacked by Muslim forces and on the same day it was

12 captured by these forces. They also cut off the Kravica-Bratunac road on

13 the same day.

14 Q. Did Jovan Nikolic participate in the fighting in Glogova?

15 A. Yes. He was wounded.

16 Q. Is it correct that you did not participate in the fighting in

17 Glogova?

18 A. That's correct.

19 MS. SELLERS: I would ask the usher to hand Mr. Eric the map that

20 we previously used, a coloured map, number 397.

21 Q. Mr. Eric, you've previously marked on this map --

22 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, do we have that up on the screen -- on

23 the ELMO?

24 Q. Mr. Eric, you previously marked on this map the length of the road

25 between Kravica and Bratunac and you also showed the Trial Chamber where

Page 1201

1 Glogova was on this map. Isn't that correct?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, when the Muslim forces recaptured Glogova, did it

4 affect the main road between Kravica and Bratunac that you previously

5 marked?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you please show Your Honours where the road was affected.

8 A. Well, roughly like this. Here.

9 Q. And Mr. Eric, when I'm using the word "affected" does that mean

10 that it was impossible for Bosnian Serb forces to use the road now to

11 travel between Kravica and Bratunac?

12 A. It was not possible.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think for the record the witness has drawn a line

14 across the road between Bratunac and Glogova roughly halfway -- halfway.

15 Could I ask you, sir, to put your initials against that line

16 please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Complies].

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And he has affixed his initials "SE" to that.


20 Q. Mr. Eric, what road now, if any, had to be taken to establish a

21 link between Kravica and Bratunac?

22 A. No, no. We couldn't go to Bratunac using this road. We had to go

23 round about. For instance, when I was wounded it went something like

24 this: Kravica, Opravdici, then Ocenovici, Sopotnik, like this. This is

25 the road you had to take to Bratunac.

Page 1202

1 Q. Could you also put your initials where you just marked that road.

2 MS. SELLERS: And Your Honours if the record could reflect that

3 now the witness --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness indicates a route

5 starting from Kravica going north to the direction of Borodnik -- Sopotnik

6 and then following the river Drina right down to Bratunac.


8 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, as a result of the Muslim recapture of Glogova,

9 were Kravica and the Bosnian Serb hamlets that you identified earlier in

10 your testimony and marked on the first map, were they now surrounded by

11 Bosnian Muslim hamlets?

12 A. Yes, something like that.

13 Q. Would those Bosnian Muslim hamlets be hamlets such as Konjevic

14 Polje, Sandici, Grabosko --

15 A. Grabovska you mean.

16 Q. Grabovska. Pavici?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the territory of Paljevic?

21 A. Right. Right. All this was kept by the Muslims, held by the

22 Muslims.

23 Q. I would now ask you, Mr. Eric, to turn to the map and would you

24 please mark for Your Honours the towns that I have indicated or the areas.

25 We'll go again. Konjevic Polje. "KP." Would you please mark "KP" on the

Page 1203

1 map and your initials.

2 A. [Witness complies].

3 Q. Thank you. Would you please mark Sandici on the map and your

4 initials. With an "S," please.

5 A. There is no Sandici on this map because they are somewhere around

6 here. I'll mark it. "S" for Sandici.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you also mark Grabosko, please.

8 A. Well, there is no Grabovska either, but there is Urkovici. I'll

9 put a "G" for Grabovska.

10 Q. Thank you. Is Urkovici near what you referred to before as

11 Grabovska?

12 A. Yes. They are very close.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you now mark Pavici with a "P"?

14 A. Pavici is somewhere in this area probably. I don't know exactly.

15 Q. Could you please mark on the map Mecave?

16 A. Mecave. Mecave is also in the vicinity. I don't know how well

17 I'll manage.

18 Q. Thank you. Could you put your initials.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record -- and that's because on the

20 map there is more than one "M" encircled indicated by the same witness on

21 the same map. Could I have the map --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what I mean. Here's Mecave.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness has indicated -- has put on "M" together

24 with his initials in reply to the Prosecution's witness -- question. Just

25 beneath Paljevici and to the left of Sopotnik. Yes.

Page 1204












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1205


2 Q. Mr. Eric, could I also ask you to indicate on the map the

3 territory that is referred to as Paljevic?

4 A. [Witness complies].

5 Q. Mr. Eric, is it your testimony that the towns you have just marked

6 Konjevic Polje, Sandici, Grabovska, Pavici, Mecari, and the territory of

7 Paljevici are Muslim villages or hamlets that surrounded Kravica?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. So, might I ask you --

10 MS. SELLERS: And Your Honours I will be concluding this section.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And we will have a break.


13 Q. That as a result of the attack on the 24th of December and the

14 recapture of Glogova by the Muslim forces that Kravica was cut off from

15 the normal route of communication to Bratunac and was also surrounded in

16 the west by Bosnian Muslim villages. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would ask at this time to tender the

20 map. I believe it already is into evidence but the usher may remove the

21 map. Your Honours --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's already tendered in evidence.

23 MS. SELLERS: Fine. Your Honours, I will be moving to a new

24 section of this. I think this would be an appropriate time if you wanted

25 to break.

Page 1206

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's try to stick to a 25-minute break and try to

2 be as punctual as possible okay. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You may proceed.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Mr. Eric, before the break you confirmed that Kravica was cut off

8 from the normal route to Bratunac and that also it was surrounded in the

9 west by Bosnian Muslim villages as a result of the December 24th recapture

10 of Glogova by the Muslim forces. My question to you now is then: After

11 December 24th, did the Bosnian Serbs in Kravica anticipate that there

12 might be a Muslim attack on the village? It appears that interpretation

13 is --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I see that there is something wrong. [Microphone

15 not activated] Could -- yes, something happened in the meantime, because

16 even mine was switched off --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems there was something wrong because even mine

19 was switched off.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you now.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But you did not hear the question, no?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So I will repeat the question.

24 Ms. Sellers asked you the following: "Mr. Eric, before the break

25 you confirmed that Kravica was cut off from the normal route to Bratunac

Page 1207

1 and that also it was surrounded in the west by Bosnian Muslim villages as

2 a result of the December 24th recapture of Glogova by the Muslim forces.

3 My question to you now is then: After December 24th, did the Bosnian

4 Serbs in Kravica anticipate that there might be a Muslim attack on the

5 village?"

6 That is the question that you need to answer.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We assumed so, but we were not sure

8 because we were attacked by Muslim forces before on major Serbian

9 holidays. So it was to be expected that it could happen that day, but

10 nobody knew that for sure.


12 Q. Mr. Eric, what was the strength of the village guards in Kravica

13 and the surrounding hamlets in that time period?

14 A. In December, perhaps about 350 to 400. Well, as it happens in

15 war, some people left, some people were wounded. So I think it was about

16 350 to 400. I don't know the exact number.

17 Q. Were reinforcements sent from Bratunac to Kravica, that area, to

18 strengthen the number of village guards?

19 A. No. Except for about 40 people who came from Bratunac. There

20 were some people from Bijeljina there and the military police, but nobody

21 else came other than they.

22 Q. So, Mr. Eric, is it your testimony that reinforcements from

23 outside of the area totalled around 40 persons?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Now, did there come a time period when Kravica and the surrounding

Page 1208

1 Bosnian Muslim hamlets were attacked by the forces, the Muslim forces --

2 I'm sorry, the surrounding Bosnian Serb hamlets - if you could correct the

3 transcript, please - were attacked by the Bosnian Muslim forces?

4 A. Yes. On the 7th early in the morning I was woken up by loud

5 shooting, accompanied by loud detonations. We had an alarm siren which

6 was activated. I went straight to the medical -- to the health centre

7 because my house is about 300 metres away from that facility. I stayed

8 there the whole day throughout the entire attack except for going to the

9 school twice to see what happened with the help that was promised

10 regarding the transport. Because from hour to hour the number of the

11 wounded that I had was growing and I had no means to transport them. I

12 was told that some vehicles would arrive, maybe a helicopter, but there

13 was nothing. Then the second time when I went to the school I told this

14 young man there who was attending the military academy, Lazar Ostojic. I

15 said: Lazar, what am I going to do? My number of wounded is growing. He

16 said: Slavisa, I don't know. Try to evacuate them as best you can.

17 That's what I did. I went to the medical centre and I told them to lead

18 those people out. There were leaving one by one. Four remained behind

19 who were not able to walk. They couldn't be moved. I was standing in

20 front of the building and those last few people who were passing by, I

21 asked them to carry these people. The last person I actually helped to

22 carry out, Zeljko Jankovic, we left. We were dodging bullets between the

23 houses and we left towards Opravdici. This was maybe around 3.00 or 3.30

24 in the afternoon. I can't tell you the exact time when we actually left,

25 when we were evacuated.

Page 1209

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Before we proceed I want a confirmation from

3 you, particularly from the Defence because the Prosecution are always

4 here, we are scheduled to be sitting tomorrow and Thursday in the

5 afternoon. Would you agree to shift it to the morning instead of the

6 afternoon or do you have commitments?

7 MR. JONES: I think that would be fine with us.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we will be sitting in the morning

9 tomorrow and Thursday. Friday was in the morning in any case, and we will

10 be sitting in Courtroom II.

11 MR. JONES: Thank you. And Wednesday in the afternoon?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Today in Tuesday already.

13 MR. JONES: My apologies. Thursday in the afternoon.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't confuse me, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: My apologies. I'm with you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay with you, Ms. Sellers?

17 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, that will be fine.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, if I may, just a confirmation to be

19 sure. Tomorrow afternoon as well?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Tomorrow and Thursday, instead of sitting

21 in the afternoon, we will sit in the morning.

22 MR. WUBBEN: So there's a switch. And this witness for today,

23 Your Honour, is still projected to finalise today?


25 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, confirmation.

Page 1210

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So Gerold, could you proceed.

2 Yes, sorry for the interruption.

3 MS. SELLERS: That's okay.

4 Q. Mr. Eric, you testified that the attack began on the 7th. Was

5 that the 7th of January, 1993?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And is that a special day?

8 A. Yes, it was Christmas. That is the most important Orthodox

9 holiday which is celebrated in the family. It's a family holiday,

10 Christmas.

11 Q. Mr. Eric, you also testified that you spoke to Mr. Lazar Ostojic.

12 Who was this person?

13 A. Yes. That was a young man whom I knew. He was there for

14 Christmas. You could say that he was in command. He was a member of the

15 military academy. He was attending the military academy. He's born from

16 that area, so he was there in the school. He was sort of in command. He

17 was there in the school and there were means of communication there. So I

18 went and I asked him what I should do.

19 Q. Did Mr. Ostojic more or less replace Jovan Nikolic in terms of the

20 role or function he performed in Kravica?

21 A. Something like that, yes. Something like that.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, during the attack did you spend most of your time

23 at the medical clinic attending to the wounded that came in because of the

24 attack?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1211

1 Q. You stated that you finally left the clinic with some of the

2 people who were wounded and you went into the direction of Opravdici. Why

3 did you go toward Opravdici?

4 A. Because that was the only way towards the Drina where we thought

5 there were no Muslims, and this turned out to be right during the course

6 of our withdrawal. These were all Serbian villages and we passed by there

7 towards Sopotnik.

8 Q. Mr. Eric, I believe I asked you to mark Opravdici on one of the

9 first maps we looked at this morning. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Now, does Opravdici, is it situated an elevation above Kravica,

12 which you testified before is in a valley?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you observe from your position, Opravdici, what was

15 happening in the town of -- the village of Kravica as you evacuated?

16 A. Not quite. We could see what was happening in Siljkovici, because

17 that is at an elevation compared to Kravica, and we could see the village

18 of Kravica burning, we could see the cattle thereabouts. There are also

19 some trees in between, so you couldn't really have the best view of it but

20 it was possible.

21 Q. You testified that the village of Kravica was burning. To your

22 knowledge, did the Bosnian Serb forces set the village of Kravica on fire

23 as they were retreating?

24 A. Serbs, no, no. No. I was amongst the last to leave. So, no, it

25 wasn't the Serbs. No.

Page 1212

1 Q. To your knowledge was the village of Kravica set on fire by

2 Bosnian Muslim forces?

3 MR. JONES: I wonder if my learned friend could simply ask to who

4 to the witness's knowledge set the village on fire. It's a very leading

5 way of putting it.

6 MS. SELLERS: I can rephrase the question. I certainly withdraw

7 it and will rephrase it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that would be most helpful, Ms. Sellers.

9 Thank you.


11 Q. Mr. Eric, to your knowledge, who, if anybody, set the village of

12 Kravica on fire as you were evacuating?

13 A. The Muslim forces.

14 Q. Could you see any of the other surrounding Bosnian Serb hamlets as

15 you were escaping towards Opravdici?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Which hamlets could you see?

18 A. Donji Mratinci, Siljkovici, Magasici, and then you couldn't see

19 Mandici further along, no.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, did you ever after January 7th, 1993, go back to

21 your village of Kravica?

22 A. Yes. When we were attacking our village, when we were taking it

23 back. I think this was on the 15th of March. I took part in the

24 liberation of my village.

25 Q. And that recapture of the village by Bosnian Serbs, did the

Page 1213

1 fighting to recapture the village take place in the centre of the village

2 or did it take place on the surrounding mountainsides?

3 A. On the surrounding mountainsides, and there wasn't really any

4 particular fighting. The Muslims were not really dug in. They were just

5 really holding some approaches to the village and some elevations.

6 Q. You returned to your village of Kravica on the 15th of March,

7 1993. What did the houses and the buildings look like?

8 A. We came back. They were all burned.

9 Q. Could you give an estimate, if permitted by Defence counsel, of

10 what percentage of houses in the village of Kravica were burned or

11 destroyed.

12 A. I didn't really understand the question very well.

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, might I just repeat it?



16 Q. I'd like to know out of the different houses in Kravica, how many,

17 what percentage, what number, an estimate, of these houses were burned or

18 destroyed.

19 A. All of it, everything that could be burned.

20 Q. Did you have a chance to go back to your house in Kravica?

21 A. When we entered the village, my house is in the middle of the

22 village, in the centre of the village. I spent the night in my house. I

23 lit a fire in the middle of the room and I warmed myself by the fire

24 because it was cold.

25 Q. Had your house also been burned?

Page 1214

1 A. Down to the ground. As much as it could burn; everything was

2 burned that could burn.

3 Q. Mr. Eric, in your opinion was the burning of the houses in Kravica

4 a result of the January 7th, 1993 attack or was it caused by the

5 March 15th, 1993 recapture of Kravica?

6 A. All the houses in the village of Kravica were burned on the 7th.

7 Q. Mr. Eric, after you spent the night in your house, did you

8 continue on with the Serb forces to Bratunac and then return to Kravica a

9 few days later?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did a Dr. Stankovic come to Kravica during the time period when

12 you went back to Kravica?

13 A. Yes, Dr. Stankovic. He was a major then. He was in Kravica. The

14 families of the victims were collecting the bodies of those who died, and

15 in one yard in the centre of the village he looked at all the bodies

16 and photographed them. I was searching for my grandmother and my

17 grandfather because they were killed on the 7th of January.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask now if the usher would hand

19 Mr. Eric a Prosecution Exhibit previously marked 365. These are again a

20 series of photos, but I would state that I believe, Your Honours, we

21 haven't looked at these photos before.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally the map 397 which -- the coloured map

23 which you have been using with this witness, we did not receive a copy of

24 it. We have 396 but we don't have 397.

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, you would like the copy with the

Page 1215

1 different markings on it?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that would be useful.

3 MS. SELLERS: I agree. I think we will have to photocopy that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need all the map. If you could

5 photocopy the part where the witness has put his markings.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we could restrict that to -- okay. I

8 understand that the registrar can do that. Thank you.

9 MS. SELLERS: Fine. Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed.

11 MS. SELLERS: May I, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. Don't forget that we have lost about

13 10 minutes because of the technical hitch we had, so try to compensate as

14 much as you can.

15 MS. SELLERS: Very well, okay.

16 Q. Mr. Eric, would you look at the photograph being placed on the

17 ELMO now. It will be ERN number -- I'm sorry, it's also on Sanction for

18 the benefit of the Court. It's ERN number 01087901.

19 A. Yes. The parish hall in Kravica near the church. This is where I

20 pass by to go to my field. This is where I used to pass by often.

21 Q. Was this house destroyed on January 7th, 1993?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 MS. SELLERS: Could I ask the usher now to place picture

24 ERN number ending in 898, that's 01087898.

25 Q. Mr. Eric, do you recognise this building?

Page 1216

1 A. Yes. This is the community building in Kravica. This is where

2 they would purchase the agricultural products from us, the cattle,

3 raspberries, blueberries. It was the co-operative, the local

4 co-operative.

5 Q. Mr. Eric, was this building used in 1992 to supply food to the

6 Bosnian Serb forces in Kravica and the surrounding area to your knowledge?

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. Mr. Eric, was this building destroyed on January 7th, 1993?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. Might I rephrase the question. Do you know whether this building

11 was burned in the attack that occurred on January 7th, 1993, Mr. Eric?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 MS. SELLERS: I would now like to ask the usher to place the next

14 paragraph, ERN number 0187907. I'll ask Mr. Eric:

15 Q. Do you recognise this house?

16 A. Yes. This is the house of Raso Milosevic. This is where I

17 evacuated the last wounded. We passed by this house and we were going in

18 the direction of --

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the

20 village.


22 Q. You were going in the direction of which what village, Mr. Eric?

23 A. Opravdici.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move to the next one 7908.

Page 1217


2 Q. Do you recognise this house, Mr. Eric, and if so tell us where it

3 is and --

4 A. This is the house of -- this is near the school, near my family

5 house. It's the house of a man; he's in Djermani. I don't know his name.

6 His father's name is Slavko, but I don't know the name of the person.

7 He's an engineer. He lives in Djermani.

8 Q. Was this house destroyed in the attack on January 7th, 1993?

9 A. It was burned, yes.

10 Q. The next picture. It's 911. 01087911. Mr. Eric, do you

11 recognise this building?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one, Ms. Sellers?

13 MS. SELLERS: This is 01 -- I'm sorry.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Which building, because I see three

15 buildings there.

16 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Eric, would you point out the different buildings in this

18 photograph you might recognise?

19 A. This is the old schoolhouse, one, two, three. Right. This is the

20 old schoolhouse. This is a house next door and this is a neighbour's

21 house. I know. They burned down completely in the attack of the 7th.

22 They were torched.

23 Q. Mr. Eric, is this the schoolhouse where there were meetings

24 between yourself, Jovan Nikolic, or yourself and Mr. Ostojic?

25 A. Up to here is the new schoolhouse; that's where we held the

Page 1218

1 meetings.

2 Q. So were meetings held in the other schoolhouse?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And the other schoolhouse was not used for any form of military

5 purposes, Mr. Eric?

6 A. No.

7 MS. SELLERS: Might I move to the next picture, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: 7893.


10 Q. Mr. Eric, do you recognise this building, and if so tell us what

11 it is.

12 A. This is Erto [phoen] Nikolic's house and this is the local shop.

13 It was also torched.

14 Q. Were these buildings both torched in the attack of January 7th,

15 1993?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you described the building to the right as the local shop.

18 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Was this a shop that was used to supply food or supplies to the

20 Bosnian Serb army during 1992?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. SELLERS: Might I move to the next picture, Your Honour?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: 7913.


Page 1219

1 Q. Mr. Eric, do you recognise this house?

2 A. Yes. It's Nedjo Nikolic's house in the centre of the village. It

3 was torched and burned down on the 7th.

4 Q. Is that 1993, in January?

5 A. Right.

6 MS. SELLERS: Might I move to the next picture, Your Honour?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the gym of that school, next

8 door another house, and the schoolhouse also burned down on the 7th. Here

9 is the fountain in the middle of the village.


11 Q. That's ERN number 01087912 for the record.

12 Mr. Eric, I would ask you: Is that the schoolhouse that was used

13 to have meetings sometime between yourself and Jovan Nikolic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Might we move to the next picture, please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: 7915.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my uncle's house, Cvijetin

18 Eric torched on the 7th of January, 1993. You can see the roof being put

19 up again.

20 MS. SELLERS: Might we move to the next picture again.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: 7917.


23 Q. Mr. Eric, do you recognise this house?

24 A. Yes. This is the house of my grandfather, Golub Eric, burned down

25 on the 7th of January, 1993. An old house.

Page 1220

1 Q. Are these houses you just mentioned now and the house of your

2 uncle, are they located in the village of Kravica?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 MS. SELLERS: Might we move to the next picture.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: 7891.


7 Q. Mr. Eric, would you please tell us --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Here is the infirmary, the infirmary where I used to

9 work or the clinic. I worked there throughout the war. You see this

10 building that was torched, that's here, that's it. This used to be the

11 post office and this is the cultural hall where balls and dances were

12 held. There was a cafeteria inside. Here is the street in Bratunac.

13 Q. Mr. Eric, might I ask you whether the cultural hall or the post

14 office were used for military purposes during the summer or fall of 1992?

15 A. No, no, no.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. SELLERS: Might we go to the last and final picture, Your

18 Honours.

19 Q. Mr. Eric, would you -- do you recognise the house in this picture?

20 A. Yes, that's my house.

21 Q. Is this how your house looked when you returned to Kravica on the

22 15th of March, 1993?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And was this house destroyed in the attack in Kravica on the 7th

25 of January, 1993?

Page 1221

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Is this the house where your grandparents you said died, were

3 found?

4 A. Yes. My grandmother burned in this room up here. And downstairs

5 I spent the night of the 15th of March. That's the room where I lit a

6 fire.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Eric.

8 MS. SELLERS: If the usher might remove the photos at this point.

9 Your Honour, I would like to tender those photos into evidence for the

10 Prosecution.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That will be marked P400. Will that be P400? Do

12 you want to mark them P400/1, 2 in sequence or what? Because I noticed

13 that the ERN numbers are not in sequence --

14 MS. SELLERS: No, they're not because we will have witnesses in

15 the same other area.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll keep it P400.


18 Q. Mr. Eric, I just have one final question for you. When you

19 returned to Kravica and you saw the property destruction, to your

20 knowledge did the Bosnian Muslim -- pardon me, did you hear me before?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest you repeat the question,

22 Ms. Sellers.

23 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

24 Q. Mr. Eric, when you returned to Kravica on March 15th, 1993 and saw

25 the property destruction, to your knowledge did the Bosnian Muslim forces

Page 1222

1 during the attack of January 7th, 1993 distinguish between military

2 targets in Kravica and private homes, businesses, community or public

3 buildings?

4 A. No way, no way. No distinction was made. It was all the same to

5 them.

6 Q. Does that mean that they destroyed the buildings and houses in

7 Kravica without distinction to military targets -- military objectives,

8 excuse me.

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

11 questions.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps before Madam Vidovic starts.

13 Were there any military targets in the village of Kravica on that

14 day?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, apart from us and those houses

16 there was nothing special. There was no barracks, nothing I can think of.


18 So now you are going to be cross-examined by Madam Vidovic. May I

19 remind you of what I told you before. Your responsibility, duty,

20 obligation, is to answer her questions as fully and truthfully as

21 possible.

22 Madam Vidovic.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Eric. I would only like to ask

25 you to give me brief answers to my questions and whenever possible please

Page 1223

1 answer with a yes or no or I don't know to save time.

2 A. All right.

3 Q. Mr. Eric, you have been questioned here today as to whether you

4 had been a member of the Crisis Staff. You were indeed a member of the

5 Crisis Staff that had been organised by the SDS in mid-April 1992, weren't

6 you?

7 A. In terms of establishment, I was.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask the usher to put an

9 excerpt from the book "The Bloody Christmas of Kravica Village," pages 42

10 and 43 on the ELMO. This book was written by Boro Miljanovic.

11 Q. Mr. Eric, I will read two small excerpts from the quoted pages of

12 this book and in this connection I will ask you a couple of questions. So

13 please look at these pages. I will quote now.

14 "In mid-April a Crisis Staff was established and the following

15 persons were elected on to it, Nedjo Nikolic, president; Krsto

16 Cvjetinovic; Radomir Raso Milosevic; Bogoljub Golub Eric; Jovan Nikolic;

17 Mile Milanovic; Dragan Ilic; Luka Bogdanovic; Slavisa Eric, and

18 Nedeljko T. Nikolic. For security reasons, the Crisis Staff cancelled

19 regular tuition, whereas the schoolhouse was turned into a barracks.

20 Territorial units were established. The staff established defence lines

21 in all populated areas from Banjevici, Donje and Gornje Brana, Bacici,

22 Jezero, Mratinjaci, Gornje and Dornje Dolovi, Brezanci, Jasikovaca,

23 Ravni Buljim, Jezestica, (Jaglic, Djermani, Vresinje), Magasici (Mjenice,

24 Radukici, Bozici, Deronjici) through Avdagina Njiva and Mandici up to

25 Bandijera."

Page 1224

1 "There results of the work of the Crisis Staff were visible

2 already with its first activities. People originating from Kravica were

3 willing and ready to help their village including the sending of

4 volunteers from defence. They confirmed this and it was also confirmed by

5 the newly arrived fighters, volunteers, who left their jobs in Belgrade

6 and other places in order to take up arms to defend Kravica. Thus among

7 the first to come from Belgrade was Gordan Nikolic. Then came Milan

8 Milosevic, nicknamed Minja, who immediately took up the organisation of

9 the village defence on the line Banjevici, Ocenovici and Begici. He

10 brought from Belgrade with him about 20 young men from Ocenovici and

11 Banjevici. Weapons and equipment from the storehouses of the Territorial

12 Defence were, to begin with, sufficient. Some of it was gathered and

13 procured from various sides. The black market was in full swing. A great

14 role in those days --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please slow down. We haven't

16 finished with the excerpt.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] A great role in the days of defence

18 was played by Major Ljubomir Tesanovic as well as senior staff sergeant

19 Miroslav Dadic.

20 Q. Can I ask you, witness, did you -- can you confirm: The Crisis

21 Staff established defence lines on the entire territory of Kravica. Isn't

22 that so?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The school building in Kravica was turned into a barracks by the

25 Crisis Staff. Is that correct?

Page 1225












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1226

1 A. I wouldn't say so. But it's where the meetings were held in the

2 school house, not in the barracks.

3 Q. Please answer with a yes or no.

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Is it true that the cultural hall in Kravica was

6 turned into an arms depot?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What did the farmers' co-op serve for in the period between

9 mid-April 1992 and the attack on Kravica on the 7th of January?

10 A. Well, I don't know. Since it was a farmers' facility fenced in,

11 there were a couple of cows that the villagers were selling that were in

12 that building, indoors.

13 Q. You are a medical staff worker?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You know what the infirmary and the pharmacy were used for?

16 A. Of course I do.

17 Q. Were they used for military purposes?

18 A. When the war broke out, yes, they were used for military purposes.

19 Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Golub Eric is your grandfather?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. How old was he in 1992?

23 A. I don't know. He was born in 1913 or 1914.

24 Q. Was he a fighting man?

25 A. Yes, he died as a fighting man.

Page 1227

1 Q. In this part of the book we see a description saying that the

2 Crisis Staff had organised the arming of the people of Kravica from the

3 arms depot of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 A. Just a minute, lady.

5 Q. Please answer my question. Isn't that correct?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I don't want you to interrupt each

7 other to start with. That's number one. And secondly, after -- allow,

8 please, an interval of time between question and answer. Because whatever

9 you're saying in the Serbian/Croat language is being translated to us in

10 English, and the interpreters have a very difficult job here, perhaps the

11 most difficult job after ours. They have to catch up with what you are

12 saying all the time and translate, some of them into French and some into

13 English. And if you run the way you are running, they won't make it.

14 Your question again, Madam Vidovic, please. And then allow an

15 interval and then you answer. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did the staff organise the arming of the Kravica population of

18 Serb ethnicity from the depots of the Territorial Defence?

19 A. I'm not aware of that. It was not up to me to deal with that and

20 to think about it.

21 Q. Mr. Eric, the officers of the former JNA in April and May 1992

22 arrived in the territory of Kravica to join in the fighting against the

23 Muslims. Isn't that true?

24 A. Some did.

25 Q. Is it true that the staff coordinated the arrival of volunteers

Page 1228

1 from Serbia?

2 A. No. They came on their own.

3 Q. Just a minute. Before I ask my next question I would kindly ask

4 that this excerpt from the book "Bloody Christmas in Kravica Village" be

5 given a number.

6 A. May I just say a word now?

7 Q. I will continue to ask you questions about the volunteers.

8 A. But can I just say something in the meantime if that is allowed?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You are supposed to answer questions. If you think

10 you have not answered a question sufficiently, then you can ask me, tell

11 me what you want to say, and I will consult with the two Judges, and I

12 will decide whether to let you say. But strictly speaking you are to

13 answer questions here, not to make statements.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I wanted to -- I just

15 wanted to ask one thing, to say something.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you want to say?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, this book, "Bloody Christmas

18 in Kravica village," without purporting to diminish the work of this

19 author, Boro Milanovic, a man I don't know at all, the man did a lot of

20 work to write this book, suffered, but how relevant is this book for me to

21 discuss it at all?

22 Because, Mrs. Vidovic, this is not the only book in existence.

23 There are two or three more --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am asking

25 questions --

Page 1229

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Eric, when I say "stop," it means

2 stop.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And don't provoke another incident like this because

5 I will treat you differently. You're not here to argue with the lawyers;

6 you're here to answer the questions that they put to you. If you agree

7 with what is suggested to you, you say: I agree. If you don't agree, you

8 say you don't agree and you give the reasons but not beyond that. You're

9 not here to make speeches.

10 Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. If I may

12 kindly ask the usher to put 01336196 on the ELMO.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, we still haven't given this excerpt

14 from the book a number. This will be exhibit -- Defence Exhibit D?

15 THE REGISTRAR: 35, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: 35, D35. Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So 01336196. It is instructions to the treasury dated 1st July,

19 1992 issued by the War Staff, and it originates from the seized

20 documentation of the Bratunac Brigade. It was seized by the OTP. Will

21 you please look at this document.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It says here: "Pay out at the expense of the account of the War

24 Staff of Kravica an amount to compensate travel expenses for volunteers

25 Jarovic, Mirko [phoen], under number one, under number two, Zivkovic

Page 1230

1 [phoen], Dragan."

2 Does this mean, Mr. Eric, that the Crisis Staff of Kravica

3 actually paid volunteers?

4 A. I don't know.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

6 as a Defence exhibit.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I point out one thing. I would

8 just like to put on the record that learned counsel has shown the

9 document, has referred to the document. The witness has not in any way

10 recognised the document, adhered to the contents of the document at all.

11 So it is going in, we believe, without necessarily having related to the

12 evidence that she is elicited from the witness. We understand very much

13 Your Honour's policy in terms of acceptance or the admission of evidence,

14 but we just wanted to make that clear one time on the record. Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Sellers.

16 May I interrupt you for a minute, Madam Vidovic, and ask the

17 witness a question related to this document.

18 Are you aware that the Kravica Crisis Staff had an account, a bank

19 account, of its own?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no way. No, it didn't.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you have money at your disposal?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you show this document again to the witness

24 and ask him whether he recognises the signature at the bottom right.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 1231

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't know who that person is?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you know the two persons mention Mirko

4 Jarovic and Dragan Zivkovic?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be Defence exhibit number D36 for the

7 record.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Eric, the Crisis Staff organised training for the Serb

10 population in advance of the war, much before the war started. Isn't that

11 true?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Isn't it true that the old schoolhouse in Kravica that you

14 identified a moment ago in the photograph was a training centre?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Isn't it true that Ljubo Sobot led the training in 1992 and 1991

17 in Kravica?

18 A. No. This is the first time I'm hearing the name.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. If I may now ask the usher to show the

20 witness exhibit -- Defence Exhibit D7. It is titled: "List of Staff

21 Members and Logistics of the TO of Kravica." 01320325. Did you see it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Eric, your name features here under number 8. There is also

24 Mr. Nikolic, Jovan Nikolic; Nedjo; and others?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1232

1 Q. Will you please leaf through this list, turn the next page for

2 instance. On the following page numbered 01320326, 24 members of the

3 artillery are named. Look at those names. Do you know any of these men?

4 A. I do, some of them, but what does it have to do with this case?

5 Q. I will now ask you the question.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Eric. Mr. Eric, again you have no right to ask

7 Ms. Vidovic what her question has to do with this case. That's up to us,

8 not up to you to decide. You answer her question, otherwise I will have

9 to censure you again.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

12 Q. That's precisely what I wanted to ask you, Mr. Eric. You are

13 medical staff, you toured the terrain, you gathered the wounded. Let me

14 ask you, where were artillery pieces deployed, the artillery pieces manned

15 by these men?

16 A. I didn't tour the terrain or gather the wounded. I don't know who

17 told you that I did that. I took care of the wounded at the infirmary.

18 The entire time of the war, I worked at the infirmary where the wounded

19 were brought in from all sides. So I'm not familiar of the operational

20 side of either artillery services or any other services. Was I clear

21 enough? Thank you very much.

22 Q. Didn't you, Mr. Eric, tell us the story not long ago how you were

23 wounded out in the field in the process of gathering the wounded?

24 A. That happened once because there was only one person wounded. If

25 there had been more, I wouldn't have gone out to collect him. They would

Page 1233

1 have been brought to me.

2 Q. Let me go on then with my questioning. Mr. Eric, isn't it true

3 that the entire zone of Kravica was militarised as early as the beginning

4 of the war?

5 A. I don't understand what you mean. What do you mean by

6 "militarised"? What exactly do you imply?

7 Q. I'll clarify.

8 A. Yes, do clarify.

9 Q. Is it the case that the entire territory of Kravica had

10 established lines of defence, units, logistics, artillery pieces deployed,

11 and everything that is implied by logistics and logistical support for

12 armed combat?

13 A. In which period, 1992? Tell me which period.

14 Q. Mr. Eric, I was very clear indeed. Will you please follow my

15 questions and answer them briefly. From the beginning of the war until

16 the attack.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now I will ask you something else, Mr. Eric. You, which is

19 obvious from your statement today, passed through the area besides

20 Glogova, Suha, Borkovac, Podcaus, Burmjiste [phoen], the outlying

21 settlements of Bratunac; is that true?

22 A. No, that's not true. I didn't have any need to go there. I was

23 in Kravica.

24 Q. You explained a little bit earlier that you went between -- you

25 were going back and forth from Bratunac to Glogova?

Page 1234

1 A. Yes. But that's not where that is, Podcaus, that's not the same

2 place.

3 Q. Did you pass by Glogova, Suha, Borkovac and the outlying areas of

4 Bratunac which is there?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I did, those ones that are there.

6 Q. Are you aware in that case that there were expulsions and killings

7 of hundreds of Muslim civilians from these villages?

8 A. No, not the killing of hundreds, but I am aware that these people

9 were expelled from these villages. But I'm not aware that hundreds of

10 Muslims were killed.

11 Q. Are you aware that at least 100 people were killed in the

12 Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac at the time?

13 A. No, no, I wasn't there.

14 Q. Are you aware that the fighters of the Kravica detachment took the

15 lead in the killings of these Muslims from the surrounding villages?

16 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

17 Q. Did you perhaps ever hear of the name of Bato Zivanovic, called

18 Kocanj. He's a person from Kravica?

19 A. Yes, of course. He's a neighbour of mine. He lived close by. We

20 grew up together. Yes, I did hear about that.

21 Q. Did you perhaps hear that he took part in the execution of a large

22 number of people in the village of Borkovac?

23 A. No, no.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down. Once more you are going too fast for

25 the interpreters to catch up. I can see the effort that they are making

Page 1235

1 to catch up with you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

3 apologise. I will repeat my question.

4 Q. Is Bato Zivanovic, called Kocanj, from Kravica the one who led the

5 executions in the local Muslim villages, including Borkovac?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Isn't it correct, Mr. Eric, that people from Glogova tried to

8 reach their property -- Glogova is their village, a Muslim village, isn't

9 that true?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And stay in their homes in Glogova?

12 A. Yes. But what can I say? Yes, yes, Glogova is their village.

13 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Eric, that they were practically attacked on a

14 daily basis from Kravica and the surrounding villages?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Mr. Eric, you also participated in these activities, is that

17 correct?

18 A. No.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

20 place a document by the Serbian municipality of Bratunac on the ELMO,

21 document by the Crisis Staff number 01/6/92 dated the 13th of April, 1992,

22 which is an order on the forming of staffs, commands, and units of the

23 Territorial Defence.

24 Q. Could the witness please look at the document, especially item 3.

25 If you could look at that, please, I am quoting: "The Crisis Staff shall

Page 1236

1 take all the decisions relating to the use of the Territorial Defence in

2 accordance with the proposals of the commander of the Serbian TO."

3 You were a member of that Crisis Staff?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What do you mean no, Mr. Eric? Isn't it true that you were a

6 member of the Crisis Staff?

7 A. Yes, in Kravica but not in Bratunac. This is an order -- yes,

8 yes, I was a member. Yes, I was a member. I didn't see that this is an

9 order from the Bratunac staff.

10 Q. Yes, an order referring to Crisis Staff.

11 A. Yes, I was a member. Yes.

12 Q. Isn't it true then that the Crisis Staff of Kravica reached

13 decisions on the combat use of their units?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. Thank you, sir.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

17 tendered into evidence as a Defence exhibit?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being admitted into evidence as Defence

19 Exhibit D37.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I would now like to ask you briefly about a certain part of your

22 testimony today.

23 A. Very well.

24 Q. You mentioned that you heard somehow that Mr. Oric commanded --

25 A. Yes.

Page 1237

1 Q. You don't know who ordered the attack on Jezestica. Isn't that

2 true?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. You don't know anything about the structure of the Bosnian army at

5 that time?

6 A. Very little.

7 Q. You did not have any reliable information, a document or anything

8 like that, based on which you could claim anything in this regard?

9 A. Yes, that is true. I did not have any documents.

10 Q. So the opinion you voiced here today is not based on any kind of

11 valid data?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. I am now going to ask you about the wound you

14 sustained and which you talked about earlier today. At the time you were

15 with your driver Marko Tomic, isn't that so? You were in a yellow van.

16 Isn't that so?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This was not a medical vehicle?

19 A. Well, we didn't have a medical vehicle, madam. This was a vehicle

20 that was marked; it wasn't very visible but it was marked. The vehicle

21 was being used as a medical vehicle.

22 Q. So it wasn't visibly marked?

23 A. Not very visibly marked.

24 Q. All right. Very well. Isn't -- is it correct that at the time

25 there were two volunteers from Serbia with you in that vehicle?

Page 1238

1 A. Yes, that is true. I don't know their names though. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Where were they going, Mr. Eric?

3 A. They were not going anywhere; they were there on the line. They

4 were not going anywhere. They were in the trenches. Yes.

5 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Eric, that Serbian forces were attacking the

6 Muslim population the whole time, the Muslim population of Glogova, and

7 that you as a medical worker constantly treated the wounded in Glogova

8 from the beginning of the war until the end of 1992?

9 A. Please, on the 28th of July there were no Muslim forces in

10 Glogova, no. They were not in Glogova. Could you please check your

11 information. They were in Glogova on the 24th of December, but not before

12 then.

13 Q. I asked you a little earlier whether the Muslim population of

14 Glogova tried to survive, to stay in their homes in Glogova?

15 A. No. No, they were not trying to survive there.

16 Q. And who were you fighting with in Glogova then?

17 A. We were not fighting with anybody in Glogova; we didn't have

18 anyone in Glogova.

19 Q. I will put my question differently.

20 A. Very well.

21 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Eric, that in those fights around Glogova in

22 this period I am talking about between the beginning of the war and the

23 attack on the 7th of January you had 30 killed and 64 wounded fighters,

24 the majority of them from Kravica, Jezestica, and the surrounding

25 villages. Isn't this true or not?

Page 1239

1 A. No, this is not true.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the usher to show

3 Mr. Eric our exhibit, Defence Exhibit D22 called: "The List of Wounded in

4 Glogova."

5 Q. First I would like you to place page 02075887 on the ELMO and then

6 could the witness please look at this page and the page after that.

7 A. Yes, very well.

8 Q. Isn't it true that this is a list of wounded in Glogova. The list

9 ends with number 64?

10 A. Yes. But look --

11 Q. Sir, I -- you said yes. I will now put the question to you and I

12 would like you to respond.

13 A. Yes, very well.

14 Q. Beside the names of these people from Jezestica and Kravica, I

15 would like to ask you: What did the person on number 1 of the list

16 Andric, Aleksandar, from Nevesinje doing, number 2, Radan Andjic, from

17 Bijeljina. What were they doing? What were these people doing here from

18 Bogojno, from Pernjavor?

19 A. I don't understand. What's in dispute here, Nevesinje, Bijeljina,

20 this is in the former Bosnia.

21 Q. Thank you. I am satisfied with this answer.

22 A. May I --

23 Q. You've said you know who Jovan Nikolic was?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Is that so. Okay. Now I would like the technical booth to play a

Page 1240

1 video excerpt and before they do that I would just like to be sure that

2 the transcript of this footage has been given to Your Honours, to the

3 Prosecution, and then I would like to ask the technical booth to play a

4 very short videoclip. This is footage which was disclosed to us by the

5 Prosecution, and it's number V003937. And it was confiscated by the

6 Prosecution in the archives of the Bratunac Brigade. It films the

7 formation of the Bratunac Brigade on the 14th of November, 1992 and the

8 assault brigade which is being placed under the command of --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, you are giving evidence.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. All right. Very well.

11 Thank you.

12 I am just trying to present this exhibit.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you very

14 much.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the technical booth now play

16 this clip, please.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Have you been commanding so far in

19 this brigade? Is the same thing going to be the same thing? Well, we are

20 from Kravica bound by tradition, and I think this is going to be the same

21 in the future. Kravica has so far given over 30 dead fighters, the same

22 number of civilians, 55 wounded. The territory we hold is 64 [as

23 interpreted] square kilometres, and we have not ceded one inch of this

24 territory. We shall continue to keep that territory. There is no dilemma

25 there. As far as the Bircanska Brigade is concerned, I would like to say

Page 1241

1 that it is the tradition of the 6th East Bosnian Assault Brigade and

2 because of the circumstances the headquarters of that brigade are in

3 Sekovici. And we have a commander such as Andric. We are lucky to have

4 him come in time here and he is our savior. The people from Kravica, we

5 call him Zekic, he is one of the commanders, but Andric stayed. Everybody

6 loves him and appreciates him, and he's become a legend here. Therefore I

7 am glad that everything is finished here. Besides him we also have

8 Colonel Zivanovic here. We were lucky to have him in Rogac on the 6th of

9 September to talk with him. And I think that what is happening with here

10 with our cadres, that is the perspective of the Serbian army in Bosnia.

11 Specifically we have already done a lot Colonel Zivanovic, Lieutenant

12 Colonels Andric and Tesic, who also introduced Captain Vaso. These are

13 people who are going to be our saviors. We should trust them and Serbian

14 people have accepted them as our own. And I am sure with them we can win

15 this battle.

16 Does that mean that the Bratunac Brigade is going to go on from

17 where the Bircanska Brigade left off?

18 Absolutely. And we have Kravica have the intention of going to

19 the assault brigade being led my Andric so that we can retake that

20 territory. So far we were holding the lines, maintaining the lines, that

21 was our task, to keep these villages. But things are changing now the

22 brigade has been formed. A real army. We, people from Kravica, would

23 like to go ahead with the assault battalion led by Andric.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Eric, have you seen this footage?

Page 1242

1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. Mr. Eric, is it true that the Kravica detachment was completely

3 incorporated into the military structure of the Army of Republika Srpska

4 and that it was a part of the Drina Corps?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So we're not talking about the village guards here but a part of

7 the army?

8 A. Yes. This was later. It turned itself into the army. Yes. It

9 became part of the true army. You are right.

10 Q. Is it true that the Bratunac Brigade was established on the 14th

11 of November, 1992?

12 A. I don't know. That's something that I don't know.

13 Q. Do you agree that the person whom you saw in this footage, Jovan

14 Nikolic, was the commander of the Kravica detachment?

15 A. Jovan Nikolic was there, but whether he was a commander or not, if

16 you say so, then yes.

17 Q. He mentioned General Milenko Zivanovic. Isn't that so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it true that General Milenko Zivanovic at the time was the

20 commander of the Drina Corps?

21 A. I don't know. I wasn't really interested in that. It's possible

22 that he was, but I wasn't following that.

23 Q. Mr. Eric, you were a member of the Crisis Staff; that's a

24 political function. This presupposes that you had certain information of

25 a military nature at your disposal. Is this correct?

Page 1243

1 A. No. I told you that I was a member of the staff by

2 establishment, so there's a difference there. I think this is important

3 to be a member of the staff, Crisis Staff, and to be a member of the staff

4 by establishment. But you can take it as you like, however you feel fit,

5 is necessary.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Eric. I'm now going to ask you something else. Is

7 it true in this period --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you proceed with the next

9 question. The videoclip that we saw, is that being tendered by the

10 Defence as an exhibit?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, of

12 course.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So that will be D38.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be D38 and the transcript

15 would be --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The translation --

17 THE REGISTRAR: There's a B/C/S transcript to be D38.1, and the

18 translation with the English version of D38.1.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Eric, is it true that in that period the Drina Corps,

22 including the units of the Kravica detachment, held under siege small

23 enclaves including Konjevic Polje which you showed in response to a

24 Prosecutor's question today and certain villages such as Cerska and

25 others. Is it true that 80.000 Muslims from that area were under siege in

Page 1244

1 November 1992, under siege by the Drina Corps?

2 A. They were under siege, but the figure of 80.000 seems too high to

3 be believable. The whole area didn't have that population. I don't know.

4 Q. Thank you. But they were under siege?

5 A. Under siege or not, we were defending ourselves, fending off their

6 attacks. If they suddenly found themselves under siege, too bad.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Eric, is it true that after the establishment of

8 the Bratunac Brigade an order was issued to all Serb units in the area of

9 Podrinje, the Drina Valley, including the Kravica units, to expel or

10 destroy the remaining Muslim population that had been trying to survive

11 there?

12 A. Perhaps, but I hadn't seen or heard such an order.

13 Q. Is it true that on the 24th December, 1992 fierce fighting took

14 place around Kravica and the neighbouring Glogova and it lasted all the

15 way up to the 7th of January, 1993?

16 A. On the 24th, Glogova was taken and the fighting ceased. Apart

17 from sporadic shooting, there was no more fighting except from the

18 direction of Bratunac when their units tried to lift the blockade

19 unsuccessfully. I don't believe there was shooting from our side.

20 Q. Please, please. When you say Glogova was taken, Glogova is a

21 Muslim village?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who do you think it was taken by?

24 A. The Muslims, again.

25 Q. Does that mean that Muslims were trying to go back to their homes,

Page 1245

1 their property, their food?

2 A. Yes. But there was no property or food.

3 Q. You, Mr. Eric, were aware that continuous fighting lasted up to

4 the 7th of January. Isn't it true that you were admitting wounded on the

5 5th and the 6th of January?

6 A. Maybe one or two at a time. I can't remember exactly. I can't

7 tell you the names of these people.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask the usher now to put on

9 the ELMO a document of the command of the Bratunac Brigade number

10 01320545, which is a list of the fighting men of the 4th Battalion. So a

11 list of the fighting men of the 4th Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade who

12 on the 24th of December, 1992 lost their lives in the village of Glogova.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Eric, this fighting around Glogova was therefore under way.

15 A. What do you mean was under way? This was the 24th.

16 Q. Yes, it is the 24th. What were the Serb fighters doing in the

17 Muslim village of Glogova on that day?

18 A. They were not in the Muslim village of Glogova; they were at

19 positions near Glogova, from Hranca on one side to Magasici, and Bozici on

20 the other side. They were never in Glogova.

21 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we should take the break now

23 if the Trial Chamber --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we can have a break now. But how do you know

25 these things? Were you there during the fighting on the 24th? How do you

Page 1246












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1247

1 know the exact position?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The positions of those units?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, the position of these persons who were

4 killed. Because you said -- you were very precise. "They were not in the

5 Muslim village of Glogova; they were at positions near Glogova, from

6 Hranca on one side to Magasici and Bozici on the other side. They were

7 never in Glogova."

8 How -- were you there during the fighting?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was passing through Glogova

10 whenever I had wounded men with me and on other occasions. And since I

11 grew up and worked in Bratunac, I know those villages and the environs

12 like the back of my hand. So I know where the soldiers were. It was a

13 concern for me. I was passing through Glogova and I knew where they were

14 and were they weren't. I knew where approximately they were located.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I do remind you that one of the very early

16 questions that Madam Vidovic put to you was precisely whether you were

17 going round collecting bodies, collecting the sick, et cetera, and you

18 were very precise there. You said, no, no, no, that you were in your

19 clinic and tending to the sick and the wounded that were taken there and

20 that you were there -- definitely not going round. It seems that you were

21 going round.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a minute. As the fighting

23 became more intensive and as the units which at the outset had been poorly

24 organised and hastily hatched got better, I started touring. And

25 throughout the world you will find it a rule for medical staff to inspect,

Page 1248

1 to tour the lines, not to fortify them of course. But it is the duty of

2 medical staff to be familiar with the positions and even tour the

3 personnel holding those positions.


5 Judge Eser would like to put a question to you before we go on

6 break.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.

8 JUDGE ESER: You mentioned that you knew from which parts or which

9 places the attack was led for, but before you had said you would not know

10 exactly what was going on. Now, when you explained to us that you knew

11 where normally soldiers were posted, does this imply that you also knew

12 the exact place from which the concrete attack on the 24th of December was

13 led from? Is there a difference between knowing where normally soldiers

14 are posted and the exact place, the concrete place, where an attack on a

15 certain day and a certain time was performed?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood your question and I

17 will try to answer specifically. When early in the morning on Christmas

18 Day I received a visit from Miladinovic, Miladin, I knew that he had come

19 from Dolijani, that's where he was wounded because he was a local of the

20 village defending his village. And when Zeljko Radovic came in, I knew of

21 course that he was coming from Siljkovici, because that's where he was

22 deployed. And as people came in, I would know from which defence line

23 they were coming.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have a short break of 25 minutes. And

25 please try to be as punctual and hopefully we won't have technical

Page 1249

1 problems.

2 Do you think you're still on track, able to finish by quarter to

3 2.00?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.


6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just before we rise, if I may ask

7 for this exhibit to be given a number. The last exhibit dated the 24th of

8 December, 1992.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will be D39. Correct? So this will be

10 Defence Exhibit D39. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. We left off on the discussion about the fighting around Glogova

16 and the 24th of December. I will now ask you a question, Mr. Eric. This

17 fighting around Glogova, it was not spontaneous, was it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. It is the case that it was planned and ordered, isn't it?

20 A. No, it wasn't ordered.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask the usher to put on the

22 ELMO Defence Exhibit D25.

23 Q. Please, Witness, look at this report of the Bratunac Brigade to

24 the command of the Drina Corps dated 4th January, 1993.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1250

1 Q. Be so kind as to look at the last sentence of para 1 of the

2 document which says: "We assume that in the area of Glogova there remains

3 about 200 armed Turks."

4 Then para 2 goes: "Our forces are carrying out active operations

5 in the area of villages of Tatar, Maljevo, Vinjesta [phoen], Kravica, and

6 Velika Glogova village. Vladosic [phoen], Petkovici, Brezanci, Sandici,

7 Saonik, and so on.

8 Mr. Eric, isn't it the case that the fighting around Glogova did

9 not stop until the 7th of January?

10 A. If you're talking about from Bratunac, the direction from

11 Bratunac, then the answer is yes. But not from Kravica.

12 Q. My question was: The fighting in the area of Glogova did not stop

13 until the 7th of January?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you mean to say that people from Kravica were not

16 involved in this fighting?

17 A. Were they involved. Assault units did not take part. As for

18 people, it's difficult to say. It's difficult to say whether some

19 individual people were involved. It's possible they were.

20 Q. Is it true that all the way up to the 7th of January, 1992 [as

21 interpreted] you were admitting wounded men from Glogova, Serb soldiers

22 wounded in Glogova?

23 A. No.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may now ask

25 Defence Exhibit D26 to be put on the ELMO.

Page 1251

1 Q. You have had a look at the document. Doesn't it say here that

2 these men had been wounded in Glogova and were undergoing out-patient

3 treatment?

4 A. Yes. But from the direction of Bratunac.

5 Q. Mr. Eric, my question was: Did you admit wounded men at your

6 infirmary? Were you aware of this fighting and the fact that people were

7 getting wounded there?

8 A. I was aware but these people never came to me. Those people came

9 from Bratunac and returned to Bratunac. Why would they go through

10 Glogova? It's possible that someone was in the meantime wounded but not

11 these people.

12 Q. You just said you were aware --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is confusing. You see the transcript is --

14 says: "I was aware but these people never came to me. Those people came

15 from Bratunac and returned to Bratunac. Why would they go through

16 Glogova? It's possible that someone was in the meantime wounded but not

17 these people."

18 This goes diametrically opposed to what the document itself says.

19 So we need to clarify this. Are you contesting that these persons that --

20 whose names appear on the document that you have in front of you were

21 indeed or in truth wounded on the 5th of January while they were fighting

22 in Glogova? Are you denying?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not come to me for medical

24 assistance in Kravica; that's what I'm contesting.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This answer

Page 1252

1 satisfies my question.

2 Q. Mr. Eric, I will now ask you something about the attack itself.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You did not see the attackers, did you?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. You didn't see them at any one time.

7 A. I did. Only as we were retreating, from a distance.

8 Q. Were you able to identify, to tell whether they were soldiers or

9 civilians? Did you see any civilians among the attackers?

10 A. No, no. I don't know who they were.

11 Q. Let me ask you a different question now. Today in response to

12 another question of mine referring to artillery personnel manning

13 artillery pieces, you said that you did not know where the artillery was

14 positioned. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you still maintain that you were not aware where artillery

17 pieces were deployed?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. All right.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor has

21 referred today to the statement of this witness from 2001 and so have I.

22 Q. Witness, you gave this statement to the Prosecutor in 2001?

23 A. Of course I did.

24 Q. You signed it then?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1253

1 Q. You were cautioned on that occasion that you are duty-bound to

2 tell the truth?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Then on that occasion on page 03062708 of that statement in

5 B/C/S --

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at

7 this B/C/S version. Page 02062541 of the English version, third

8 paragraph.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said -- please look at it.

11 A. I know it. I know it.

12 Q. "I was aware that on the hill at Siljkovici an artillery piece was

13 deployed." Is that correct?

14 A. Yes. But is one artillery piece tantamount to artillery? If that

15 is the same as artillery, you are free to understand it that way. It's

16 true that there was one artillery weapon.

17 Q. Today, Mr. Eric, you said that you didn't know where artillery

18 pieces were deployed.

19 A. I wasn't talking about one artillery piece; I was talking about

20 artillery. Do you feel the difference? It's not the same thing, an

21 artillery piece and artillery as such. Will you agree with me? No, you

22 won't. It's up to you. No problem.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Eric.


25 JUDGE AGIUS: You are going to end up to trouble if you continue

Page 1254

1 like this. I told you to answer the question and you don't discuss --

2 argue with the lawyer. Don't give me that because I will have to censure

3 you and I will have to punish you, if you continue like that.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I will not continue like that,

5 Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic is doing her duty here.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You promised me in the beginning that you will not

9 discriminate between the Prosecution and the Defence, and I noticed that

10 while you had absolutely no problems in answering the questions coming

11 from the Prosecution and you answered them without any arguments and with

12 a lot of tranquility, you are not behaving the same way with the Defence

13 counsel and you are not reacting the same way in trying to answer the

14 questions that are coming from the Defence. That's what you promised me

15 in the beginning.

16 Let's go ahead.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. My question was: Did you know the people who were servicing the

19 artillery weapons?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And you responded that you did not?

22 A. This particular artillery weapon, piece.

23 Q. So, Mr. Eric, you agree that this artillery piece was located on

24 the Siljkovici hill?

25 A. Yes, I agree.

Page 1255

1 Q. Do you agree that this weapon was the first target of the attack

2 on the Siljkovici hill?

3 A. Amongst other things, but Siljkovici was a dominant spot and that

4 is why the attack was first carried out against Siljkovici, with the

5 objective of capturing Siljkovici first.

6 Q. I asked you specifically whether this artillery weapon was the

7 first target of the attack?

8 A. Well, no, no. It wasn't. No.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to draw

10 the witness's attention to the same paragraph of this statement on the

11 same page, of the statement given on 2001. He said the following -- just

12 one second, please. "I knew that there was an artillery gun fixed on the

13 hill in Siljkovici. This was up on the hill, on the top of the hill. I

14 know that this gun was operated by soldiers Pajkan Gavric, Savljevic, and

15 Radovic. I do not know the first names of the last two. These people

16 were killed during the early stage of the attack. This means very early

17 in the morning. When the Muslims attacked that part of the village, one

18 of the first points of the attack was this gun."

19 A. Yes. One of the points of attack.

20 Q. So you agree with that?

21 A. Well, I don't agree that it was the first point of attack but it

22 was amongst the initial points of attack.

23 JUDGE ESER: When you talk of artillery or artillery piece, could

24 you please describe what you mean with the artillery piece. Was it a gun

25 which needed to be carried by various people or was it some sort of a gun

Page 1256

1 which would be carried by one person or so?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Several people could carry it or

3 perhaps it could be pulled by a vehicle. It's a 76-millimetre weapon.

4 I'm not very well versed in that. But it's something -- it's a weapon

5 that could be carried by several people.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Eric, the Kravica region actually had vast quantities of

8 weapons at that time. Isn't that true?

9 A. Well, it had a substantial amount of weapons but not vast amounts

10 of weapons.

11 Q. So it had substantial -- a substantial quantity of weapons?

12 A. Yes, yes. That's correct.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher place document --

15 this is a document of the Light Bratunac Brigade of the 9th of October,

16 1993, and it has the number 00675503. It was seized from the

17 documentation of the Bratunac Brigade by the Prosecutor's Office.

18 Q. Mr. Eric, could you please look at this document?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This is a report of the brigade of the Drina Corps. Could you

21 please look at this document. Isn't it correct that this document gives

22 the quantities of weapons?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. And please, isn't it correct that in the document it is stated

25 that during the battle, the 3rd Infantry Battalion Kravica, on the 7th of

Page 1257

1 January, 1993, as it was retreating left behind the following

2 materiel/technical means as follows: 60 mines -- MB 60-millimetre mines,

3 150 pieces; grenades, 20 pieces; automatic rifles, five pieces;

4 machine-guns, M-53, ten pieces; rifles, 15 pieces; two anti-aircraft

5 machine-guns.

6 Now, could you please look at page 2 of this document. Isn't it

7 true on this page under 24 it says: Weapons of fighters killed, in

8 parenthesis, unverified, about 35 pieces?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Blouses, trousers, coats for 150 soldiers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Does it not say under item 3 that a three-barrel transporter from

13 Bijeljina was destroyed, a four-barrel M-38, a ZIS, a B-1; six mortars?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Eric, the gist of my question is: Are these not weapons which

16 were used before this attack, during this attack against the Muslims?

17 A. Well, if the three-barrelled gun is from Bijeljina and the people

18 from Bijeljina came to Kravica before Kravica fell a few days ago [as

19 interpreted], how could this three-barrel piece have been used before if

20 it arrived only a few days before Kravica burned down? How could it have

21 been used before this event?

22 Q. Therefore you agree that soldiers from Bijeljina arrived to

23 Kravica several days before the attack?

24 A. Well, there's nothing to agree or not agree with I said that.

25 This is not in dispute.

Page 1258

1 Q. Very well. Do you also agree that there was a Kravica battalion

2 there, the one that we are talking about?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you also agree that these units had their own weapons?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you agree that it's possible that these weapons were

7 confiscated -- no, actually remained in Kravica, not confiscated. I

8 apologise.

9 A. Well, I don't know. It's possible. I would have to tell you.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 A. Well, I don't know. I cannot tell you what I don't know.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document to be

13 given an exhibit number and to be tendered into evidence.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Registrar, please, that

15 will be Defence Exhibit D40.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17 Q. Mr. Eric, there was an airport near Bratunac and Kravica. Isn't

18 that so?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How far was the airport from Kravica?

21 A. Well, it's not an airport. These are fields. It's an airfield

22 near Drina. I know about it, but it's not an airport.

23 Q. Is it true, Mr. Eric, that the Bratunac Brigade used four

24 airplanes at that time?

25 A. I don't know. There weren't any where we were.

Page 1259

1 Q. Very well. Thank you.

2 You said that you returned to Kravica on the 17th or the 18th of

3 March and that you found that everything was destroyed.

4 A. Well, I don't know, the 15th, the 16th, the 17th, is that

5 something that is important?

6 Q. You returned to Kravica in mid-March, 1993?

7 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.

8 Q. In the meantime, between the 7th of January and the 15th of March,

9 you did not come back to Kravica?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Before that you said that you didn't see what was going on during

12 the attack?

13 A. No, I didn't. Except when I was on my way out, when I was

14 leaving. That's what I described, that's what I saw. I didn't leave the

15 medical centre.

16 Q. Is it true then that you did not see what was going on in the

17 period between January 7th and your return to Kravica in mid-March?

18 A. No, I didn't. I was deployed to a different battalion. So -- a

19 battalion towards Voljevica because this one had fallen apart. So when it

20 reformed, then I came back to it.

21 Q. Thank you. Is it true that the destruction that you found was

22 something that could have been caused at any time and by anyone during

23 those two months of your absence?

24 A. The question is not quite clear to me, but I think that all of

25 this was destroyed on the 7th. If that's what you're talking about.

Page 1260

1 Q. You have just told us that you did not see the attackers or what

2 they were doing.

3 A. Madam, in the conflict between Serbs and Muslims, who would be a

4 third -- which would be a third party who could do something like that?

5 Q. So just on the basis of the fact that there were no third parties,

6 you are coming to the conclusion that --

7 A. No, of course not. We didn't attack ourselves.

8 Q. So based on the fact that there was no third party, you draw this

9 conclusion?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Eric, isn't it true that there were major combat

12 operations by Serb forces in this area known as the winter offensive?

13 A. I don't know that. I don't know.

14 Q. Is it true that Kravica was captured in fighting by numerous and

15 different Serbian forces in the middle of March?

16 A. Yes, of course, I know that. I took part in that.

17 Q. All right. So you took part in that battle?

18 A. Yes, yes, I did. I am proud of that. I took part in the capture

19 of my own village. There's nothing in dispute about that.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please place on the

22 ELMO document of the command of the Zvornik Brigade of the 14th of March,

23 1993, number 00808449, combat order number 15.

24 WITNESS: Again, the Zvornik Brigade…the fuckin’ Zvornik brigade…

25 MS. VIDOVIC: I would just like the witness to refrain from

Page 1261

1 swearing. Could you please look at item 3 which says: "The combined

2 armoured detachment grouping the main forces attacks the road section

3 in the direction Konjevic Polje, Lolici, Kravica, and auxiliary forces

4 (detachment north supported by a tank destroyer and an armoured APC)."

5 Q. So I would like to ask you something. Is a self-propelled weapon

6 a destructive artillery weapon?

7 A. Yes, I think it is.

8 Q. Is an armoured transporter the same thing?

9 A. Yes. An armoured transporter is less destructive.

10 Q. But it is destructive?

11 A. Yes, I agree.

12 Q. Do you know that combined armoured units or companies took part in

13 this battles?

14 A. I heard about that.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Eric, then it is possible that these

16 weapons were the ones which inflicted the damage that you talked about in

17 your testimony, isn't that so, during the recapture of Kravica?

18 A. No.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like this

20 document to be admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That will be Defence Exhibit D41. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: {Interpretation].

24 Q. Mr. Eric, now I would like to ask you just a few more short

25 questions. You said that your late grandfather was Golub Eric?

Page 1262

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. His brother is Nego Eric?

3 A. Negoslav Eric called Nego.

4 Q. Is it correct that both of them were killed in this fight on the

5 7th of January?

6 A. No. Golub was killed earlier and Nego was killed on the 7th.

7 Q. Nego Eric is your uncle? He's the brother of your grandfather?

8 A. Yes, his brother is Golub.

9 Q. How old was he during this attack?

10 A. He was born in 1911, so he was about 70-plus.

11 Q. Is it correct that he died firing at Muslims, shooting at Muslims?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it true that in the process he killed his own wife, Kristina,

14 and then he killed himself?

15 A. We are assuming that, but I don't know exactly because she was

16 burned and my grandfather had a bullet through his mouth. So he probably

17 shot her and then killed himself later, but he did fire at Muslim fighters.

18 Q. Thank you. Your grandfather and his brother following World War

19 II were sentenced to a long prison sentence because of a massacre of 86

20 Muslims from the village of Sopotnik?

21 A. They were sentenced to death by execution, but you have to let me

22 say something else. If you mentioned World War II, you must allow me, and

23 I need to ask the Judges' permission for me to say something.

24 Q. I'm asking you to reply to my question, whether it's true that

25 they were sentenced.

Page 1263

1 A. Yes, it is true. But may I say something?

2 Q. Thank you very much. This is a part of the Defence --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Eric, you answer the question and that's it. We

4 don't want to hear more about these events.

5 Madam Vidovic, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. In 1995 between 1.000 and 1500 Muslims were killed in the village

9 of Kravica. Is this true?

10 A. I don't know. I wasn't there at the time.

11 Q. Did your close cousins Zoran Eric participate in the killings

12 of hundreds of these Muslims?

13 A. No. I don't know.

14 Q. Where were you, Mr. Eric?

15 A. I was in Trnovo, Madam Vidovic.

16 Q. And you claim that you were not in this area, that you were not in

17 Kravica?

18 A. No, I wasn't. I have proof of that.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

20 further questions.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

22 Is there re-examination, Ms. Sellers?

23 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I have just a few questions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

25 Re-examined by Ms. Sellers:

Page 1264

1 Q. Mr. Eric, you stated that -- you testified in response to the

2 Defence counsel question that your grandfather died while shooting at

3 Muslims. Was he shooting at Muslims during the attack in his village in

4 Kravica on the 7th January, 1993?

5 A. No, no. When they attacked the house, when they attacked the

6 house itself, when they reached the house, then he fired from the house at

7 them. He wasn't on the lines of defence; he was in the house.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it if he was born in 1911 and these events

9 happened in 1993, he was 82, 81, 82 years old.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I agree. And that's precisely my

11 point.

12 Q. Was he shooting at Muslim forces in order to defend his house in

13 Kravica as it was under attack?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. One more question. And Mr. Eric, you testified that

16 to your knowledge that you thought that Mr. Naser Oric might have been the

17 commander of the Bosnian Muslim forces. My question is: Did you

18 receive --

19 MR. JONES: I wonder if that's a correct statement of his

20 evidence. There was very conflicting evidence. He said he had no

21 reliable information. He said he didn't know -- in fact, in

22 cross-examination, if we review the transcript that was not -- that was

23 not his evidence.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that's precisely why I am rising -- I'm

25 raising it, how it was characterised in --

Page 1265

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go on and --

2 MR. JONES: If it's a non-leading question, it's correct.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's okay.

4 MS. SELLERS: I'm merely trying to retrace -- I thank counsel for

5 his correction. I'm trying to retrace how it was phrased on direct

6 examination. He said to your knowledge. I wanted to ask you:

7 Q. Does that knowledge come from television or papers or any other

8 source?

9 A. Yes, yes. Actually, it wasn't important to us who the commander

10 of the Muslim forces was. We were busy with our own troubles to defend

11 our village. And this about Naser Oric is something that we heard from

12 television, radio, it was something that was talked about. But we -- it

13 doesn't matter who it was. We were not interested specifically in who it

14 was. We didn't have any information about that.

15 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

16 questions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sellers.

18 Judge Brydensholt would like to put a question to you.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: You have explained that this village guard

21 changed around November 1992 and became part of the army, as far as I

22 understood. Does that mean that they got uniforms? I can see that about

23 uniforms for 150 soldiers were left on the 7th of January. So was this

24 guard uniformed at the 7th of January?

25 A. No. For example, I personally on January 7th was wearing civilian

Page 1266

1 clothes. I had a shirt which was part of the uniform of the former JNA.

2 People did have pieces of uniform, but the unit as a whole was not kitted

3 out and dressed in uniform. People had pieces of that military uniform.

4 And you can see that in the photographs when those people were found, when

5 Dr. Stankovic was making those photographs, you could see that some people

6 were wearing those olive-drab uniforms of the former JNA. And they were

7 probably left to us by people when the army was withdrawing.

8 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And what about the weapons? I can see that

9 quite a number of weapons, also heavy weapons, were left behind on the 7th

10 of January. Was that kind of weapon also given to the village guard

11 members?

12 A. No. This was left -- it was located in the centre of the village

13 and then when a position was attacked or jeopardised, then the weapon was

14 deployed. But I don't know exactly how it was deployed.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Brydensholt.

16 Judge Eser.

17 JUDGE ESER: Before I put a question to the witness, I would like

18 to ask -- pose of Defence and the Prosecution, as it had been before with

19 other witnesses there are -- had been references to a book "The Bloody

20 Christmas in the Village of Kravica." Now I wanted to ask whether this

21 book is to be considered as a reliable report and whether the Prosecution

22 at any point would challenge this or whether -- would you agree with

23 regard to the proper value of this book?

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, our position on that, and we know that

25 the Defence has with other witnesses used portions of this book and I

Page 1267












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1268

1 believe you can see from the testimony those witnesses gave, a couple of

2 the witnesses didn't agree with what was written, didn't recognise it. I

3 believe my colleague had raised objections in terms of the relevance

4 materiality. This witness had portions of it read out, he listened to it.

5 He didn't necessarily agree with all the characterisation. Your Honour, I

6 think the Prosecution's point on this would be since we do understand the

7 Trial Chamber would prefer to see things, to look at them, to weigh for

8 themselves, that we're objecting to its admission when the Defence tenders

9 it, but what we would be arguing is that the weight given to this book

10 must be closely examined.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: If I may add something on this point, we are also

12 unaware whether the Defence that has been relying on excerpts from this

13 book as pieces of evidence intends to bring forward the author as one of

14 the witnesses. We don't know that. Because it does of course make a

15 difference if he makes himself available. Anyway, I don't think at this

16 point in time we should, knowing that the Prosecution itself is not

17 contesting the admissibility of this document, I think we can leave it at

18 that for the time being. And we'll consider the value, if any, to give to

19 this book later on, if necessary.

20 But yes, Madam Vidovic, do you have anything to say in regard?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, regarding what is

22 written in this book, we are asking questions. Other than that, we will

23 bring other evidence in relation to that book, documents, facts, and other

24 evidence, witnesses.

25 JUDGE ESER: So even if you use other evidence, at any rate you

Page 1269

1 used this book as a sort of indirect way of contrasting witnesses. And I

2 must say that it's not very easy for the Trial Chamber to be left in the

3 air, both by the Defence and by the Prosecution with regard to the

4 reliability of this book. I personally would be quite happy to know how

5 books which are introduced in the evidence procedure are to be looked

6 upon, as reliable or less reliable.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

8 MR. JONES: Just to add one perspective. As my colleague said,

9 it's a source of propositions which are being put to witnesses. And to

10 the extent they adopt those propositions or to the extent those

11 propositions are corroborated by other evidence, then we would submit that

12 that's a probative value. We are not at this stage seeking to rely on the

13 book itself as providing evidence. That's a matter which we may see again

14 in due course, however.

15 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honours. In light of what counsel

16 has stated, do I understand that possibly Defence counsel would be

17 withdrawing the book from admission into evidence at this time --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need to complicate it thus far. I

19 think the only legal way of approaching this issue as it stands to date is

20 that the book itself is not sworn testimony; it's just information that is

21 being used by the Defence so far. Either -- we don't have an indication

22 that it's going to be used by you as well but you are free to do so. And

23 the information contained in that book is being put to the various

24 witnesses, and they required or requested to answer whether they agree or

25 disagree with the content of -- the contents of the part usually they are

Page 1270

1 referred to. What becomes evidence is their answer and not the book.

2 MR. JONES: We have a similar situation with the newspaper article

3 which was introduced by the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the same if you read our decision in the

5 Brdjanin judgement. You will see that it is wrong even to submit that

6 newspaper articles are testimony. They are not testimony. That was

7 submitted in that case that they were testimony heard under Rule 92 bis,

8 which is -- couldn't be farther from the truth.

9 But anyway, let's not meander and get lost on this. The book is

10 not being considered, at least for the time being, as evidence that you

11 are bringing forward. It's being considered to be a piece of evidence in

12 the sense that it's tendered in evidence but not as proof of its own

13 content. In other words, what is relevant is what the witnesses are

14 answering in relation to those excerpts and not the book itself.

15 Otherwise, without the author coming forward to confirm the contents, I

16 mean, we get nowhere.

17 MR. JONES: Indeed, Your Honour. And if a hundred witnesses were

18 to confirm a portion of the book, then the book itself might assume some

19 probative value.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily. We would still -- we would still

21 not need to go into that merit, because if you have a hundred witnesses

22 confirming the contents of that book, you rely on the hundred witnesses

23 and you don't need to rely on the book.

24 So, Mr. Eric, that brings us to the end of your testimony. I wish

25 to -- before you leave the courtroom, I wish to thank you, that's on my

Page 1271

1 own behalf and also on behalf of Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser, but

2 also on behalf of the Tribunal in general. We wish to thank you for

3 having accepted to come over and give evidence in this trial. You will be

4 escorted by Madam Usher out of this courtroom and then you will receive

5 all the assistance that you require to enable you to return home to your

6 work and to your family. Last but not least, we all wish you a safe

7 journey back home. Thank you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So I wish to thank the Prosecution and Defence for

11 having cooperated together and managed to succeed at completing the

12 testimony of this witness within a day, as agreed.

13 Tomorrow we will be sitting in the morning and not in the

14 afternoon. And we will be sitting in Courtroom II and not in Courtroom I

15 like today. It may be smaller, but at least we will have the advantage of

16 finishing in the morning and early afternoon and not late in the evening.

17 The same should apply on Thursday.

18 Now, next witness. You had indicated three hours to us. So

19 what's the position, Mr. Wubben?

20 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, Prosecution would like to limit the time

21 until around two hours.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Two hours.

23 And Defence?

24 MR. JONES: I think an hour and a half would be sufficient.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So you should plan to finish with this witness

Page 1272

1 tomorrow? Okay.

2 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow will be Wednesday. And then Thursday the

4 important thing is it seems it could be done, because the next two

5 witnesses, number 4 and number 5, are all scheduled to have two hours.

6 So --

7 MR. WUBBEN: The same applies, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. What we would like you to do is to

9 ensure that these two witnesses will also be gone from The Hague by the

10 end of the week. Okay. I thank you so much.

11 Once more we have stayed a little bit longer. Technicians,

12 interpreters, and everyone else, I would like to thank you on behalf of my

13 colleagues and myself for having stayed with us for a few more minutes. I

14 thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

17 October, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.