Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1367

1 Thursday, 28 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Registrar. Could you call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Oric, the usual question. I want to make

10 sure that you are following the proceedings in a language that you can

11 understand.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour,

13 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in a language I can

14 understand.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you and you may sit down.

16 Appearances for the Prosecution.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

18 senior trial attorney, together with counsel, Ms. Patricia Sellers, Ms.

19 Joanne Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to your team.

21 Appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am

23 Vasvija Vidovic together with Mr. John Jones, representing Mr. Naser

24 Oric. And we have our legal assistant with us, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and

25 our CaseMap manager Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 1368

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good morning to you and

2 the rest of your team.

3 Do you have any preliminaries on your part? We have got some.

4 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.

7 MR. WUBBEN: We hand over the confidential witness list.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see that.

9 MR. WUBBEN: Without mentioning any names, I would like to refer

10 to it. It is of course tentative as there is a motion pending regarding

11 the videolink. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but the persons mentioned for the purpose of

13 the videolink are included here, no?

14 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. What I would require from you, Madam

16 Vidovic, is these are two hours, three hours is the estimate of what you

17 need for yourselves, no?

18 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So then we would require you, Madam Vidovic, to

20 more or less give us an indication of how much you require.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would need

22 approximately the same time required by the Prosecution for our

23 cross-examination. But this time, when we are speaking about Ms. Racine

24 Manas, perhaps we would need an hour and a half for that. And of course

25 about Dr. Gow, we already said that I hope that we would manage to

Page 1369

1 complete his cross-examination in two days.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Where does Mr. Gow have to come from?

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, he's in London. He's not far away.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

5 So if we find ourselves in a fix and we have to move by one day,

6 two days, his testimony, that's not going to affect -- if we tell you

7 beforehand, obviously.

8 MS. SELLERS: As long as we are given some warning.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But I suggest that you -- the 29th is

10 Monday, no? The 29th is a Monday. So I would advise Mr. Gow to allow

11 for the entire week if necessary, because if we say -- we don't start on

12 Monday with him, we start on Tuesday, if we don't start on Tuesday, we

13 start on Wednesday, we want to be sure that he is available from the

14 beginning to the end of his testimony, which I understand would take us

15 anything from two and a half to three days.

16 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. I will advise Mr. Gow to try to

17 set aside that amount of time --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That week. And as we approach the date, we should

19 be in a better position to give -- to put you in a position to advise him

20 accordingly.

21 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

23 So any preliminaries on your part?

24 Two things. We are still waiting for your response to the

25 Defence motion for adjudicated facts.

Page 1370

1 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. That's in preparation. I

2 believe the Prosecution will file that today, at the latest tomorrow.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's number one.

4 The other one is we are still waiting for your response to the

5 Prosecution motion for protective measures, the one that was filed ten

6 days ago on the 18th.

7 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed, Your Honour and we will be filing a

8 response today or tomorrow. And that also applied to the videolink

9 motion of the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are not making an order. We are

11 just indicating our strong desire that you comply with this and that you

12 file it by not later than tomorrow. Wednesday I leave, so -- I have

13 discussed all these matters with Judges Brydensholt and Eser already. We

14 are going to do our utmost to have these matters decided by Tuesday, but

15 we can't neither discuss nor decide unless we have got the responses from

16 either side.

17 MR. JONES: Yes, we can assure you --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That will help us immensely if you file everything

19 by the end of the business day tomorrow.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I add we are willing to provide

21 courtesy copies so you might be able to have that before --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. There being no other business to

23 transact, I suggest that Madam Usher brings in the witness, please.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, upon arrival of the witness, if I may

25 ask for private session due to a request for protective measures.

Page 1371

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But can his face be seen or not.

2 MR. WUBBEN: The face will be part of --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go into private session immediately before

4 we mess it up. Let's go into private session for the time being because

5 we are in Trial Chamber II you are going to tell me. I don't know

6 whether there are transmissions, so let's go into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 1372












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 1373












12 Pages 1373 redacted private session.














Page 1374












12 Page 1374 redacted private session.














Page 1375












12 Page 1375 redacted private session.














Page 1376

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session now.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now. Just for the record,

7 the Trial Chamber has been in private session to consider and decide upon

8 an oral submission made by the witness for the granting of a protective

9 measure consisting in facial distortion, which the Trial Chamber has

10 granted after hearing the parties and the witness herself.

11 Now, you are going to give evidence. The way we go about it here

12 is that first a senior officer from the Prosecution will ask you a number

13 of questions, which you need to answer fully and truthfully. Then, one

14 of the lawyers defending the accused will ask you another series of

15 questions on cross-examination. And even then you are required by law to

16 answer truthfully and fully. Did I make myself clear?

17 Madam, did you hear what I said? Was it translated to you?

18 Are you receiving interpretation in your own language? Please

19 answer yes or no.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you understand what I explained to you before,

22 namely what's going to happen, that you are going to be asked questions

23 by both sides and that you are bound to answer all questions truthfully

24 and fully?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what I've already said

Page 1377

1 yesterday. I don't know about this now.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but we were not there yesterday. There was

3 only Mr. Wubben, I would imagine, yesterday. So we need to hear the

4 story now, and it's only you who can tell us the story and not Mr.

5 Wubben.

6 So, Mr. Wubben, I give you the floor. Could you please start

7 with your direct and regards the basics, you can lead the witness. If --

8 because otherwise it won't make sense. If we need to go into private

9 session for a short while, for a short while, so that we get the details,

10 personal details, from the witness, I think we could do that because

11 otherwise it's a question of facial distortion doesn't really make sense.

12 Shall we go into private session for a while.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while before

15 the witness tells us exactly who she is.

16 [Private session]

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 1378












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 1379

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Wubben.


18 Q. Mrs. Djokic, can you tell the Judges what happened in the past

19 when it comes to the village you lived in.

20 A. It happened in our village on the 5th of October. There was a

21 man chopping wood near my house and my son had gone to Bajina Basta to do

22 some shopping for the family patron saint's day, St. Michael. I was at

23 home washing the linen and getting ready for this religious feast. Once

24 my son was back from Bajina Basta, he came to me and said, Mom is there

25 anything to eat? I said, Yes, there is, call your father and brother --

Page 1380

1 husband, and wait for me right there.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, we need to establish the name of the

3 village, please. And unless we are going to be put in a position where

4 we are going to have to intervene --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Divovici.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to direct the witness to answer the question

7 and nothing but the question because otherwise we are going to have long

8 stories.

9 MR. WUBBEN: I intended to do so. It was an opening question

10 also enabling the witness to do the first opening.



13 Q. So you lived then in the village of Divovici. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it a hamlet or a village and are there other hamlets around?

16 A. Yes, there are hamlets, Kutijese, Boljevici, Radijevici,

17 Divovici. And then behind, Zanjevo. There is Zanjevo. Behind Zanjevo

18 there is Fakovici down there, further down.

19 Q. How many kilometres from Fakovici?

20 A. Well, that's difficult to say, I'm illiterate. I don't know how

21 many kilometres.

22 Q. Those hamlets or villages around your hamlet where you lived,

23 were these all Serb hamlets or other ethnic origin?

24 A. Yes, Serb hamlets. Kutijese, Boljevici, Radijevici, Divovici.

25 And after Divovici there is Zanjevo which was a Muslim hamlet. And then

Page 1381

1 behind this Muslim hamlet there was Fakovici. And then Grabovica. And

2 then further down, towards the Drina, there were other hamlets.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for one question I

4 would like to put to the witness.

5 [Private session]

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 1382

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Wubben. And my

5 apologies for interrupting.

6 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I will proceed.

7 Q. You mentioned this hamlet or village of Zanjevo. It is a Muslim

8 village. Did you have any problems with that hamlet at that time or the

9 inhabitants of your village?

10 A. Before the war we had no problems at all, no problems at all. We

11 lived side by side. We worked together. Whatever was necessary. It

12 couldn't have been better. During this catastrophe, this war, whoever

13 tore us apart, I have no idea. Before the war everything was fine.

14 Q. Can you tell us how many houses, farmhouses or homes, there were

15 in your village or hamlet called Divovici at that time.

16 A. Divovici.

17 Q. Yeah.

18 A. Seven, eight, nine, ten houses.

19 Q. And in the hamlet of --

20 A. 11, 11 houses.

21 Q. And in the other hamlet of Radijevici?

22 A. In Radijevici, I can't say, there are some.

23 Q. When the tension started during the war, was there a kind of

24 guard or military or none at all, as far as you can confirm, in your

25 village?

Page 1383

1 A. No. There was a little guard that night. There were people

2 there. They were working. Nothing.

3 Q. Were these guards, were they soldiers or not? Civilians?

4 A. Well, civilians.

5 Q. And did they wear uniforms?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did they have uniforms, apart from the fact that they didn't wear

8 it?

9 A. I don't know. I don't know.

10 Q. So these village guards consisted of civilians, but was there any

11 military presence in the village, any equipment, soldiers?

12 A. No, nothing. No military. If there had been any military there

13 present, this would not have been allowed to happen.

14 Q. You mentioned something happened on the 5th of October. Was that

15 in the year of the war?

16 A. What happened. On the 5th of October, then there was nothing

17 much. And then there was a strike, an attack down the Drina River

18 valley.

19 Q. My question is to the witness: How long ago was that, that 5th

20 of October, how many years?

21 A. I think 11 or 12 years since.

22 Q. And what happened on the 5th of October?

23 A. I told you what happened. My son left for Bajina Basta to do

24 some shopping for the family patron saint's holiday. My husband was

25 chopping wood and my son-in-law was brewing brandy. I was washing our

Page 1384












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 1385

1 linen at a well. My son came back from Bajina Basta and said was there

2 anything to eat. Then they went there. And then there was an explosion

3 up there. We were at the barn and then I went back to the house.

4 Q. Witness, will you please stop. Thank you for the answer, but I

5 will ask some questions and then please give an answer focussed to that

6 question. My next question is: On that particular day, the 5th of

7 October, you said it is around 11 or 12 years ago. Was it 1992?

8 A. I don't know. I am illiterate. I can't even pronounce it. Or

9 who. I know that the 12th, or rather it was the 5th of October. What

10 the date was or the year, I really can't say.

11 Q. You were working together with others or you stayed at the farm

12 at that particular day?

13 A. Yes, yes, at home.

14 Q. Did you have any animals in that farm?

15 A. Yes, goats, a cow, some swine.

16 Q. You were in that farm on that particular with your son and your

17 husband?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And also others, or no?

20 A. My stepson was there. He was brewing brandy and the rest had

21 gone to the field to pick the corn.

22 Q. And what happened then? Can you please describe that to the

23 Judges.

24 A. When that happened, Pero stormed into the house when the attack

25 occurred. He ran into the house. He took his rifle that he kept in the

Page 1386

1 house. My son came into the room and he took the rifle and went from the

2 room to the kitchen and -- from the room to the kitchen and from the

3 kitchen to the hall. We couldn't go any further because by then we were

4 surrounded and we couldn't go anywhere. We stayed right there.

5 Q. Yes. How did you know that there was a kind of attack? Can you

6 tell us what you heard or saw.

7 A. We heard sounds of shooting. We heard an explosion in the house

8 and the shooting began.

9 Q. Who was --

10 A. We stayed in the house.

11 Q. Can you tell the Judges who was shooting.

12 A. Who was shooting? Muslims, or least that's what my son told me.

13 He said, Mom, this is Nasir Orlic [Realtime transcript read in error:

14 Oric"]. It must be he and his army.

15 Q. So you heard from your --

16 MR. JONES: Your Honour, there's an error in the transcript. The

17 witness said Nasir Orlic and it's come out as Naser Oric.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I have no teeth. I

20 may have mispronounced it. I can't get everything.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but what is the name you wanted to give us?

22 What was this man's name?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nasir Orlic.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what she said.


Page 1387

1 Q. So this is what your son said to you. But did you by yourself

2 look out the window or the door of your house and saw men or whoever

3 outside if so?

4 A. My son was at the window and at the door. He didn't allow me to

5 go and have a look. Because he said if I had gone myself I would have

6 gotten very scared. So he wouldn't let me.

7 Q. And did you hear in the meanwhile that shooting from outside?

8 A. Yes, from outside, yes. We did. Outside.

9 Q. And what did you and your son subsequently do?

10 A. We stayed in the house. We defended ourselves. He showed me how

11 to put the cartridge into the rifle. We had to defend ourselves. We had

12 nowhere to go from the house.

13 Q. So your son was someone as a kind of village guard, or is that a

14 wrong conclusion?

15 A. He was there as a guard. He didn't go any further. At home,

16 that's where he was.

17 Q. And your husband, was he a member of the village guard as well?

18 A. Yes, right there. The army, the village, the house.

19 Q. And your son had a gun. And your husband at that very time, did

20 he also wear a gun with him or an arm?

21 A. No. No. On the 5th of October he didn't. He was chopping wood.

22 And none of them had any weapons on them.

23 Q. And did your husband wear a uniform?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And did your son wear a uniform?

Page 1388

1 A. No.

2 Q. So your son had a gone or something like that. Did you notice

3 what it was?

4 A. I don't know what kind it was. I don't know. I don't know what

5 it was.

6 Q. And please describe what happened then.

7 A. Then we, he and we defended ourselves from the house. And then

8 when he took my cow away, Svetozar told me he took my cow away and the

9 goat and he chased them away. He took the door down and put it into a

10 basket.

11 Q. Svetozar told you. Svetozar is your son?

12 Can you confirm that Svetozar is the name of your son.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, had there been any contact between you or your son and that

15 army outside?

16 A. No. No. None whatsoever.

17 Q. Did you yell at them or they yelled at you?

18 A. We didn't yell at them and they were yelling --

19 Q. What were they yelling --

20 A. -- at us. They said, Come out, come out, you bloody Chetniks.

21 Q. What did you make out of that, this kind of language?

22 A. We?

23 Q. Yes. Did you yell back? Did someone show up or whatsoever?

24 A. We didn't respond at all.

25 Q. So you stayed in the house with your son. And what happened

Page 1389

1 after that?

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the answer.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We stayed in the house. And then

4 we were there. And then we defended ourselves from the house. Then

5 Stojka came along. Stojka came to us and she was yelling.


7 Q. Who is Stojka?

8 A. Stojka is Marko's. She came to us and she was yelling, Savka,

9 come on. My sister, come out. They are all our neighbours. They will

10 not harm us. There, you can see my children outside naked down to the

11 waist. And then she left and she came back. And she said, Svetozar, my

12 beautiful son, come out. These people are all our neighbours and no harm

13 will come to us. And you can see my children out there, they are naked

14 to the waist and then she came in.

15 Q. So this woman came into your house, but before she came into your

16 house she was with those men outside?

17 A. With those people there, the enemies. How should I put it? The

18 army they had over there.

19 Q. And this Stojka was -- had Serbian ethnic origin?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the others outside, the same origin, Serbian, or another

22 origin?

23 A. I saw no Serbs. When I was in the house -- while I was in the

24 house, the Serbs had gone to the fields to do their work there. We

25 stayed home, and my nephew was brewing brandy and I was doing some

Page 1390












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 1391

1 washing and he was chopping wood and my son came.

2 Q. After Stojka left your house when she came in, she left the

3 house, what happened then?

4 A. And then she came again and she said -- she grabbed Svetozar --

5 she grabbed his rifle in the hall and Svetozar said, Leave my rifle alone

6 or I'll kill you right here at the doorstep. So she let his rifle go.

7 She left and came back. And they told her to go and set my house alight.

8 And she said, Listen, children, why should I set any houses on fire? So

9 she came and she didn't set fire to our house. And Svetozar then threw

10 her out. And she was in the hall and she didn't leave.

11 Q. We'll get back later on this gun she took. But first let me ask

12 you in the meanwhile when this all happened, what happened to your

13 husband, if so?

14 A. He was killed in front of the shed, at home. And Svetozar told

15 me, Mom, look. Dad was killed. And I said, Where? And he said, There

16 he is, just below the shed by the house.

17 Q. And how did you or your son know that he had been killed?

18 A. He saw him just below the shed when he was killed. From the

19 hall. The window was open and the shed was beyond that.

20 Q. You saw your husband lying over there?

21 A. He was lying there.

22 Q. And do you recall that he wore a uniform or other clothes,

23 civilian clothes?

24 A. No, no. He was in civilian clothes.

25 Q. And you told about this Stojka coming in the house and grabbing a

Page 1392

1 gun. Was that after you noticed your husband lying over there?

2 A. Stojka came in -- she came in before. And then when she went out

3 afterwards, Ibrahim -- I'm sorry. I'm having problems with my

4 concentration. Just a moment.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, Madam, let me help you a little bit. If you

6 need a rest, if you would like us to -- look at me. Look at me. If you

7 would like us to stop for a little bit so that you can go in the room

8 where you were before and rest for about 20 minutes or so, we can do

9 that. I mean, the last thing we want to do is to see you suffering.

10 Would you like to stop for the time being and we'll have a short break?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.


13 So with your indulgence we will have a 25-minute break now. And

14 then the understanding is this: If necessary, we will stop again as we

15 go along, not according to a tight schedule. Okay? All right? And I

16 just would appeal for your cooperation, which I am sure I will find.

17 Thank you.

18 So we will have a 25-minute break. Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.29 a.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.

22 Mr. Wubben, I've been thinking about the testimony of this

23 witness during the break. I think we are having a lot of questions and a

24 lot of answers about many facts that are not relevant. I mean, if we

25 could restrict it to what you really need to prove by means of this

Page 1393

1 witness, I think we will get it over and done with much earlier. Try to

2 help the witness a little bit by directing her more specifically.

3 MR. WUBBEN: Okay, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we don't need the entire story of what

5 began -- what happened from the beginning to the end. We just need to

6 know what is relevant.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Of course, Your Honour. I will proceed accordingly.

8 May I start?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, of course.


11 Q. Witness, let's take your statement from where you ended it before

12 the break, and that was about this Ibrahim and Edem. What can you tell

13 us about them?

14 A. Yes, yes. When my husband was killed and Svetozar said, Mom, Dad

15 was killed. And I said, Where was he killed? And he said, Just below

16 the shed. Then Ibrahim ran into the house and my son told me to lie

17 under the bed. And I said, they will catch us alive. He said, go lie

18 under the bed. I actually kneeled next to the window. He was next to

19 me. He took a hand grenade and through it into the kitchen when this

20 other person was in the kitchen. The bomb exploded and he fell next to

21 the table, next to the water faucet. After that we were in the house for

22 a little bit longer and he told me, Mom, can you jump through the window

23 after me? I said I can jump but I cannot escape. He said, You -- he

24 touched Pero -- he was wearing Pero's coat and he felt in the pockets.

25 There were keys, a watch, and a comb. He said, Mom, maybe you will see

Page 1394

1 Pero before I do. So I took those things and put them in my pocket. I

2 was wearing a blouse and a sweater and a skirt, all these clothes. But I

3 wasn't wearing that much. And he gave me that. I put it in my pocket.

4 And he said, I am going through the window and you go through the door

5 and may God help us. He jumped and then I managed to take some poison

6 before that, to drink it. He jolted it out of my hand and it fell in the

7 hall. This was earlier. We didn't touch it. And then when he jumped

8 through the window I grabbed poison, I poured it into a glass. Thank God

9 there wasn't too much of it. I mixed it and drank it and I went outside

10 of the door.

11 Along the creek -- I knelt down in this creek. I was there on my

12 knees and on my elbows and I was crawling through this creek, slowly, so

13 that I would not break any branches. And my son, when he jumped through

14 the window, all I could hear was that Nasir said, Hooray, give me a rope

15 and a knife. And he jumped through the window. I later went out through

16 the door and went to the woods.

17 I was in the woods. There was a creek. There was a whole pile

18 of branches. I crawled under these branches. I lay there. The water

19 was underneath my right arm. It was after midnight. There was rain,

20 there was thunder, lightning. There was water under me and there was

21 water falling on top of me. And I was lying like that. And when the

22 cocks began to crow in the morning, I went out and I was feeling my way

23 slowly wherever there were branches on the ground. I was -- kept close

24 to them. And I hid under a tree when it was -- there was lightning. I

25 hid under this tree, this birch tree, and I was just trying to protect

Page 1395

1 myself from the rain. And then I could see where I was supposed to go.

2 Q. Thank you for this clarification. I have a question regarding

3 this poison that you mentioned that you took. Why did you --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but what is the relevance? I'm sorry,

5 because this is the problem. What is the relevance of this?

6 MR. WUBBEN: The relevance is --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: She's still alive, Mr. Wubben.

8 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's proceed. We can't afford to waste time on

10 matters that are not relevant for the case. It is obvious why people

11 take poisons in difficult situations.


13 Q. When you ran outside the door, did you see any army, any men, any

14 soldiers?

15 A. No. I didn't see any. I went out to the creek and went along

16 the creek. Then I crawled under the branches and I was lying in this

17 water underneath the branches. I didn't see any soldiers. I didn't see

18 anyone. And I spent the night there.

19 And then the next day when the cocks began to crow, I crawled out

20 from under the branches and I went through the woods in semi-darkness. I

21 was keeping close to the branches. And then when I came to -- under this

22 birch tree it was raining and I was wiping the rain from my face. And

23 then I looked and I wanted to see. I don't know, it looked maybe like a

24 log or maybe somebody killed or I don't know. Anyway, I didn't dare go

25 further. I returned to the creek and I crawled on my hands and knees

Page 1396

1 along this creek. And when I got close to my house -- I didn't dare go

2 to my house, but I was just going through the garden. I crossed through

3 the garden and I went through the crossing to Milovan's garden. And I

4 was near a plum tree and close to his house there was a sheet with two

5 knots tied in this sheet. And I passed by there and left. This stayed

6 behind. I came to Marko's house. Next to Marko's house --

7 Q. Please stop. Thank you for this clarification. I have a

8 question. You went from the woods or from the creek towards houses. To

9 what village or hamlet did you come first, when you saw this house or

10 these houses?

11 A. I was going to Radijevici. I was going towards Radijevici.

12 Q. And where did you first come to Radijevici or first went through

13 another hamlet or village?

14 A. From Divovici, which is where I lived, then Radijevici is next.

15 So that's what I was going -- that's where I was going.

16 Q. I have a question regarding this first village or hamlet called

17 Divovici. What did you saw? Did you saw houses and what did you notice?

18 A. Let me tell you, when I started going up from the creek and I

19 crossed the garden through this crossing and in Milovan's garden, above

20 the house I saw that thing tied in this sheet with two knots. And then I

21 went above Milovan's house to Marko's house. Marko's house was broken,

22 the door was open. I passed through the field above the house and I went

23 across the creek and that's where my brother-in-law's house Stojan's was

24 burning.

25 Q. Stop, please. Will you confirm to the Judges in which hamlet

Page 1397

1 this was. What was the name of the hamlet or village?

2 A. It was in Divovici, that one house burned down. Veljo's house,

3 Stojan's house. The third house belonged to Milovan Djukic. Also Milos

4 Djukic's auxiliary buildings, and Milos's barn. And Radovan's storage

5 house. They all burned in Divovici. And then --

6 Q. Please, please. Wait for the question. What do you mean by

7 burned down or burned? Were they damaged or were they smoking or did you

8 saw fire? What can you tell the Judges about that?

9 A. All I could see was that things were destroyed. The walls were

10 knocked down. The ground floor. And it looked as if the house had

11 fallen down and the roof just collapsed on top of everything. And I just

12 passed by there quickly and went to Radijevici.

13 When I got close to Djukic --

14 Q. Excuse me. Let me ask you a question before you get to

15 Radijevici. In the hamlet you discussed or the village, what you saw,

16 were all the houses destroyed or were all the houses damaged or partly

17 damaged? Could you live there? If so, please clarify to the Judges.

18 A. No, no, you could not live there. It was knocked down. You

19 couldn't live in those houses that collapsed.

20 Q. And that was caused by burning?

21 A. Yes, it was burned. Those houses were burned. They were

22 burning. There was no roof left, just the walls. All the houses had

23 beams and lots of wood parts. There was no concrete like there is now,

24 so that you could continue to live in a house like that.

25 Q. Now, you stated to the Judges earlier in your statement that

Page 1398

1 there were 11 houses in your hamlet or village. Were all these houses

2 damaged like that? Or not all of them?

3 A. That's in Radijevici. There's one house, Stojan's house, and

4 these other houses, one, two, three, four. Then up there, Milica's

5 house, that's five; Radoje's house is six; Obren's house, seven; then

6 Radivoje's house. There's more.

7 Q. Now, let's get --

8 A. All together with the barns and so on. I counted all of that.

9 Q. Yes. But let's go back to Divovici -- please, Witness, please,

10 Witness. Let's go back to Divovici. My question was: Were all the

11 houses in that hamlet or village, how you name it, were they all damaged

12 or partly? Can you please clarify to the Judges. All of them or just a

13 few?

14 A. Only two -- not all of them were damaged. Not all of them were

15 damaged. People later returned. I forgot to say when I was there --

16 when I started to talk about that, when my Svetozar and I stayed in the

17 house, when we were stuck in the house a bomb or something was thrown

18 into my pantry. There was a little bit of concrete there because that

19 was built on additionally. The window burned. The doors burned and also

20 the box -- the wooden box where we stored the flour. Maybe there was a

21 litre or two of brandy and some other things. It doesn't matter. All of

22 that burned. The window and the door burned and also it caught a little

23 bit on, further out. You couldn't stay in the house because of the

24 smoke, but we didn't dare leave the house because of the enemy. I don't

25 know what to call them. My son was doing like this in the house. He

Page 1399

1 couldn't breathe because of the smoke and the sweat.

2 Q. Please. Please answer my questions and try to keep in mind what

3 my question was. My question -- next question is: Who caused this

4 damage of burning down, knocking down? Was it the enemy or was it

5 someone else? Who caused this fire --

6 MR. JONES: If the witness knows --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The enemy. The enemy.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's obviously, but --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anyone else. The

10 others were in the fields and ...


12 Q. What do you mean by the enemy? Serbians or another ethnic origin

13 if you know?

14 A. They couldn't be Serbs. They wouldn't burning and destroying,

15 but it was the enemy. People who attacked.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Who were these people? Where did they come from?

17 Who were they?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Muslims and those people. They

19 were from the outside, from Orlici and I don't know, I forgot the places

20 -- the name of the places. They attacked the Drina Valley. They were

21 torching and killing.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: How do you know that they were Muslims?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My son told me that it was the

24 Muslims. My son said, that's this Nasir [Realtime transcript read in

25 error: "Naser"] Orlic who organised the army and is hitting the Drina

Page 1400

1 Valley.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection to the

3 transcript. The witness said Nasir Orlic. She said Nasir and not Naser.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to say it. Don't

5 take it wrongly.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Did you yourself recognise any of the

7 attackers?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anyone because I was

9 in the house. I didn't see anyone. I cannot say that I saw someone if I

10 did not. I was in the house. My son was there. I was in the room. He

11 didn't let me go to the other rooms in the house because he was afraid

12 that I would see something, that I would get frightened, that I would

13 start moaning and crying. I can't say that I saw something if I didn't

14 see it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it that you are not in a position to tell

16 us how many were these attackers.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see. I can't say.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And did you at least see what they were wearing?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't. I didn't.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So you can't tell us whether they were wearing a

21 uniform or whether they were wearing just civilian clothes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really couldn't

23 tell you. I don't know.


25 Q. Witness, you told the Judges about this Ibrahim who entered your

Page 1401

1 house. Can you tell them more about this Ibrahim. Is that a Muslim or a

2 Serb?

3 A. Yes, Ibrahim, a Muslim. He is a Muslim from the neighbouring

4 Zanjevo. It's close by. It's in the neighbourhood. He entered the

5 house. He ran into the house and my Svetozar through this hand grenade

6 and he fell there and he stayed behind in my house.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness. My question is: This Ibrahim, was he armed

8 or not? If you know.

9 A. He was armed. I don't know what his rifle was -- what kind it

10 was, but he did have an ammunition on a belt around here. The belt had

11 ammunition in it but I don't know what kind of a gun it was.

12 Q. Do you recall if so that he wore a uniform?

13 A. I didn't really pay attention to that and I don't remember what

14 kind of uniform it was. I don't even remember the rifle. All I know is

15 that when I turned to go I could see this belt buckled around and the

16 ammunition in this belt, but I don't know what kind of ammunition it was.

17 Q. And, Witness, another name you called is the person who start

18 yelling or calling something after your son jumped out of the kitchen

19 window. You mentioned a name. Can you tell more?

20 A. Nasir Mahmutovic.

21 Q. And where does he come from, can you tell us?

22 A. From Zanjevo.

23 Q. And what was he calling or yelling?

24 A. He said, Hooray, give me a rope and a knife.

25 Q. And did you hear any shots at that time, any shooting when your

Page 1402

1 son left?

2 A. I went up into the woods. I could hear firing and shooting, yes,

3 yes.

4 Q. Okay. But my next question will be related to this Nasir

5 Mahmutovic. Is he a Muslim?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now I go further in your story that you told the Judges about the

8 damaging, the burning down, of your own village. But then, after that,

9 you went to the village of Radijevici, as you told us prior. What did

10 you notice in that village --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- of? Was it the same damage or burning down as in your village

13 of Divovici, or don't you know?

14 A. The houses that I was talking about, I came to Radijevici then I

15 was expecting to see somebody. It was morning but there was nobody

16 around. I reached a door, pushed the handle. There was nobody inside.

17 I went to another door of another person, it was closed. Then I came

18 back again and passed by that person's field and house. And I stopped at

19 a certain point in this field. There was nobody around. I came down to

20 the road. I looked up and down the road. There was nobody there.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. The question is: Did you notice any

22 damaging or burning down? If so, is it the same as you saw in Divovici?

23 Or as far as you know, there was no damage at all in Radijevici?

24 A. I didn't see or pay attention to that. There were just these

25 houses that had burned down. I didn't really pay attention or see

Page 1403

1 anything else.

2 Q. But these houses that were burned down, did you notice specific

3 houses of families and can you call the names of those families, if so?

4 A. This is Milovan's -- are you talking both about Divovici and

5 Radijevici?

6 Q. No --

7 A. Or only Radijevici? There's Obren there, Milic Obren's house;

8 the barn. Milica's house; and Obren's barn; and Radoje's house. They

9 burned. And Radivoje's. But nothing other than that burned in

10 Radijevici.

11 Q. And did you notice when you passed through your own hamlet or

12 village of Divovici and then to Radijevici, did you notice any military

13 men or military equipment?

14 A. I didn't see anyone. I didn't see any alive or dead people when

15 I was there.

16 Q. So also no Serbian soldiers or Serbian military equipment?

17 A. No, no, I didn't see anyone when I went down there, when I

18 crossed the road.

19 Q. Then, as you stated to the Judges, you went to a field. What

20 happened?

21 A. Then Zdravko asked me there, when I crossed the road, Zdravko

22 said, Savka is coming. I went down into the fields and he said, Let me

23 take you down to the Drina. And I went to the Drina. We approached the

24 bank. And then I saw Milos, old Milos. And I told him, You should go

25 back. I will go to Milos.

Page 1404

1 Q. And did you notice what happened with your son or husband?

2 A. My son's eye was gouged out and one of his arms was broken. And

3 my husband, in all that trouble of mine and all my tears, it seemed to me

4 as if he was without a head, but I don't -- I'm not quite sure. I don't

5 dare say that. Later when I recovered my composure, I don't know. I was

6 grieving then, so I didn't really see it so well. But I did see my son

7 clearly. I didn't see my husband so clearly. I was more dealing with my

8 son than with my husband.

9 Q. And did you notice other harm to your son on his body, specific

10 part?

11 A. Yes, under his neck there was a bruise.

12 Q. And when did you find out about the fate of your husband and son?

13 Was that the same day or later on?

14 A. The next day. They left on Tuesday when they were picking up the

15 dead, and on Wednesday I went to the burial in Bajina Basta.

16 Q. And did you subsequently return to your house, to your farmhouse?

17 A. No. I know that I was in, Serbia across the Drina River, saying

18 with a relative of mine. I stayed there until everything was done and

19 over, and then my daughter-in-law came and took me to Obrenovac where my

20 brother lived. I wasn't allowed to go anywhere else. On the fifth or

21 the sixth day when I went there was firing from the hill and we ran. And

22 I never went there again.

23 Q. Was that the fifth or the sixth day after the attack, do you mean

24 that, or ...

25 A. It was more. I called some people. I brought two couches,

Page 1405

1 sofas, and that was the only thing I brought to Serbia because I know

2 there was no one there to buy anything for me and supplies or anything.

3 So I carried that with me.

4 Q. May I stop you here. My question is: When did you actually

5 return to your house, to your farm? To go in --

6 A. We returned the next spring when we had to sow for the crops, the

7 corn and the vegetables.

8 Q. And what did you see when you got into your house?

9 A. There was soot. There had been a fire in the house. The house

10 was full of soot and dust. My neighbour and myself, we brought some

11 kitchenware and some rags and we washed those and rinsed those and she

12 tried to wash the soot away. The house, the hall, everything was washed.

13 Q. My question is: Your house was damaged or not? Can you confirm.

14 A. The pantry damaged. Still, even now. Black, burned out. And

15 the house was all -- the sides of the house were hit by bullets.

16 Q. And the shed and barn, were they damaged or not, if so?

17 A. The barn when I was in the woods up there, something just came

18 down with a thud. I didn't know what it was. But when I came back and

19 when they were gathering the dead bodies, my son was under a collapsed

20 storage house and everything was lying on top of him, the slabs, and the

21 pieces of wood and the wooden beams of the storage and everything. Only

22 his legs were sticking out slightly from underneath all the rubble. They

23 tied a rope around him because they were afraid that his body has been

24 mined and they pulled his body out of the rubble, the rubble that was on

25 top of him.

Page 1406

1 Q. Witness, my next question is: Did you notice our -- the animals

2 you referred to in the beginning of your statement? What happened with

3 the animals?

4 A. Gone. Chickens, maybe the fox had taken them away, carried them

5 off, the swine also. The pig.

6 Q. Sorry. And the goat and the cow?

7 A. The goat and the cow, my son had seen those. He said that

8 Mahmutovic had taken them away and he threw the door into the barn.

9 Q. Who is that person? Was that during the attack? And who is that

10 person?

11 A. During the attack, that's when it was. He's a neighbour of ours

12 from Zanjevo.

13 Q. Is he a Muslim?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. My last questions will be related to the damage to your house and

16 some information of your husband and son. Let's start with the last

17 issue. So in your opinion, your son and -- pardon. Stop, please.

18 Please listen to the question.

19 Is it in your opinion, can you confirm to the Judges, that your

20 son and husband were village guards and not part of the army, if so --

21 MR. JONES: Opinion evidence is for experts. She can merely

22 state what she knows. Does she know whether they were village guards. I

23 don't see that it's a matter of opinion.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically we are still back to square one. I don't

25 think we are going to get much from the witness in any case.

Page 1407

1 In what capacity -- how come that your husband and your son found

2 themselves defending the village? How were -- who armed them? Who gave

3 them arms? And why were they --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I don't know.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And why were they given arms, weapons?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I never asked.

7 They never told me.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But there was a village guard, wasn't there?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Around the houses, yes, our houses.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And your husband and your son formed part of that

11 village guard?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Did they also form part of the army of Republika

14 Srpska? Were they enrolled as conscripts of Republika Srpska, as

15 soldiers of Republika Srpska?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know that.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Last question, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Take your time. I'm not stopping you. The thing

19 is if you give her a rope, she will run away with it.

20 MR. WUBBEN: I projected two issues, and last and second issue

21 is:

22 Q. Did any organisation or person pay you for your damage, for the

23 damage of your farm --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Compensation. In other words, compensation. Did

25 you receive compensation for the damage that you sustained on your house

Page 1408

1 and your farm?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ask for compensation?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We asked but we got none.

5 MR. WUBBEN: That's it. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know if anyone else in your village got

7 compensation?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hold on. I did get something for

9 the house, for the repairs. If that is what you refer to as

10 "compensation," I did obtain that, yes. I got that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right --

12 MR. WUBBEN: But not for the animals --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I got money for the concrete. And

14 for the pains, for example, I got nothing.


16 Q. And who did you receive that compensation?

17 A. I didn't get money. I got compensation in kind. They brought

18 wooden beams and roof tiles and some paint. That's what I received but

19 nothing else.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. WUBBEN: That's fine.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben.

23 Mr. Jones.

24 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Madam, if you look the other side you are

Page 1409

1 going to be asked a series of questions by Mr. Jones.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

3 Q. Ms. Djokic, to assist you to give short answers, if you see my

4 hand making this gesture, if you would stop there, if you follow me.

5 Now, firstly today you mentioned some of the Muslims who you saw

6 on the 5th of October and you mentioned Ibrahim who your son killed with

7 a handgun.

8 A. I didn't see. I didn't see -- yes, Ibrahim, yes. He was in the

9 house, my son killed. We had to defend ourselves when the attack

10 occurred and he attacked us in the house.

11 Q. I'll come back to that but that's Ibrahim Mujkic from Zanjevo, is

12 that right?

13 A. Not Mujkic, Ibrahim --

14 Q. His surname is not important.

15 A. What's his last name, I can't remember.

16 Q. If you can't remember, don't worry --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We will clear it because even in her

18 two statements she never remembered the name of that person.

19 Did he have a nickname? Did he have a nickname, this Ibrahim?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was Kokica, Ibrahim Kokica.

21 And I don't know his last name. I never knew his last name, in fact.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That's enough.

23 Mr. Jones.

24 MR. JONES: Thank you.

25 Q. And Nasir Mahmutovic, someone whose voice you heard on the day,

Page 1410

1 on the 5th of October; that's right, isn't it?

2 A. Yes, yes, I did hear it.

3 Q. And before the war you used to hire him to cut wood and to

4 transport fertiliser for your field because he had a tractor and a chain

5 saw, didn't he?

6 A. Yes, that's true.

7 Q. And Edem Mahmutovic, who is a person you said maybe your son saw

8 took your cow and goat away, he's also from Zanjevo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So it's right, isn't it, that all of the Muslims you heard and

11 saw on that day, the 5th of October, were Zanjevo?

12 A. No, I didn't see all of them. I didn't see all of them.

13 Q. Also said earlier -- my apologies, I'll slow down.

14 And I'm referring to page 29, line 10 of the transcript, just for

15 everyone else's benefit.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 29.

17 MR. JONES: Line 10.

18 Q. When asked as to who the attackers were, part of your response

19 was: "They were from the outside, from Orlici." And then you went on.

20 Now, what I want to ask you is --

21 A. Were in the field.

22 Q. Do you know the area of Zapolje?

23 A. No, I don't. I hardly ever leave home. I'm illiterate. I don't

24 really leave home.

25 Q. Do you know a village called Gornja Olica in that region?

Page 1411

1 A. I don't.

2 Q. So as to Orlici, that's not a place which you're familiar with?

3 If you could answer, please.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, I'm going to go back to the Zanjevo Muslims. It's right,

6 isn't it, that the Muslims from Zanjevo had to leave their homes in May

7 1992?

8 A. They went away without rifles with no gunfire whatsoever. But

9 then later, they killed us like dogs and when they left they were

10 perfectly healthy and whole. Why they left, I don't know. That's what

11 happened.

12 Q. Ms. Djokic, I'll ask you not to add your own commentary, if you

13 don't mind. Just answer the questions put to you.

14 Now, I'm going to ask you about a couple of incidents near the

15 beginning of the war and ask you if you recall them. The first one, and

16 tell me just if you recall this, in the middle of May 1992 you were in

17 Radijevici and you saw Nura Osmanovic from Zanjevo. And she was crying

18 because she had to leave Zanjevo and she had to leave cattle with Vitomir

19 Stjepanovic --

20 A. Who did you say?

21 Q. Nura Osmanovic. Do you recall that she had to leave her cattle

22 with Vitomir Stjepanovic because she had to leave her home and farm?

23 A. No, she didn't leave it to Vitomir.

24 Q. Who did she leave it with?

25 A. No one. In Divovici, with no one. I don't know that she left it

Page 1412

1 with anyone.

2 Q. So that incident is not something that you recall, Nura Osmanovic

3 leaving her cattle?

4 A. No, no. I don't know.

5 Q. Now, second incident later, perhaps in September 1992 -- sorry,

6 you were going to say something.

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. Perhaps later in the year, isn't it right that the village guards

9 from your village saw Nasir and Fejzo Mahmutovic passing above your

10 village but the village guards left them alone because they thought they

11 had gone to take food from their homes? Do you recall that incident?

12 A. No. No. This is something I don't know.

13 Q. Were you aware around this time, September 1992, that the Muslims

14 from Zanjevo were suffering from severe food shortages because they had

15 to leave their cattle and crops behind?

16 A. I don't know. We had shortages, too. I don't know about their

17 crops, what happened with their crops. I have no idea.

18 Q. Now, just coming to the village guard. I think you've agreed

19 today that there was an armed village guard in Divovici. It's right,

20 isn't it, that your husband was in the guard and your son as well?

21 A. They were in their houses, but they didn't go anywhere further

22 than that.

23 Q. It's right, isn't it, that your husband, Sreten, had a rifle?

24 You can answer the question straightforwardly. It's a straightforward

25 question.

Page 1413

1 A. No, he didn't, not on that day. We were working. We were

2 chopping wood.

3 Q. I'm not asking whether on that day he had a rifle. I'm asking

4 whether your husband in 1992 possessed a rifle. Are you reluctant to

5 answer the question, Mrs. Djokic? It's a simple question.

6 A. I don't know.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Did he have a weapon, your husband?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did. But he didn't --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: What weapon did he have?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it -- now, let's say a year before all this

12 happened, did he have a weapon?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know when, for

14 example, this was or anything. He didn't.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Was your husband a hunter?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So do I take it that you did not have a shotgun,

18 your husband did not have a hunting shotgun?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about these different

20 types of rifles.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But before these incidents, before we come to these

22 incidents in October of 1992, do you remember seeing a weapon in your

23 house belonging to your husband or to your son?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our house? Well, there was my

25 son's weapon in the house.

Page 1414

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you remember -- do you recall when your son

2 brought the weapon into the house the first time? How --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: How far --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- then when this was.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But was it a few days before the 5th of October?

7 Was it weeks? Was it months? Was it years?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Seven days. Seven days earlier,

9 that's when I saw the weapon. But not before then.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And seven days, more or less. Seven days before

11 the 5th of October when you saw your son's weapon. Did you also notice

12 that your husband, too, had a weapon?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My husband had a weapon but I don't

14 know what kind. But --

15 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I got there a little bit in an indirect

17 manner, but I suggest you carry on from there.

18 MR. JONES: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Or if you want to proceed to something different,

20 it's up to you.

21 MR. JONES: I've got a few more questions on a similar theme

22 anyway.

23 Q. Your son also, as you discovered on the 5th of October, 1992, had

24 grenades as well, didn't he?

25 A. Grenade, yeah. It was thrown -- he threw it after to defend

Page 1415

1 himself from Ibrahim when Ibrahim came storming into our house.

2 Q. We'll come to that. But it's right, isn't it, that your son had

3 a bomb or a grenade or however you want to describe it which he used on

4 the 5th of October to kill another person? So he had grenades, didn't

5 he?

6 A. He had -- I'm not sure whether he had any more grenades with the

7 exception of the one that he actually threw.

8 Q. And Pero, your son-in-law, also had a rifle, didn't he? You've

9 told us today.

10 A. No, not my son-in-law. He's my nephew, not my son-in-law.

11 Q. Well, he had a rifle, didn't he?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is there any reason, Mrs. Djokic, why you're so reluctant to

14 admit that these men had weapons? Because you seem not to be very happy

15 about answering these questions.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection sustained. Objection sustained.

17 MR. JONES: I'm curious --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Now come on, Mr. Jones, please.


20 Q. Well, if those men all had rifles, isn't it right that also all

21 the men in the village had weapons in Divovici.

22 A. How am I supposed to know about all of them? I don't know.

23 Q. Do you know who gave your son the grenade or bomb that he used on

24 the 5th of October?

25 A. I have no idea. Nor did I ask, nor did he ever tell me anything

Page 1416

1 about that.

2 Q. Let's move on to the attack of the 5th of October. It's right,

3 isn't it, that you were in your home when the attack started and your

4 heard shooting. And so you don't know, do you, who started the shooting?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. And your son gave you a gun. And it is a big gun, wasn't it?

7 A. Sorry?

8 Q. The gun your son gave you was a large weapon, wasn't it?

9 A. I don't know what sort of a weapon it was.

10 Q. Isn't it right that the clip which was put into the gun was the

11 size of your hand more or less? That's how I believe you've described it

12 in earlier statements.

13 A. It was like this, the clip.

14 Q. And was it a clip which went into the bottom or --

15 A. I don't know what sort it was. I'm telling you, I don't know.

16 Q. That's fine. But this was an ammunition clip, wasn't it? It

17 wasn't an individual bullet which you were putting into the gun?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Only answer if you know. Was it a machine-gun that your son gave

20 you?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. And your son's idea when he gave you that gun was that you would

23 shoot from the house at the Muslims who had come into your village in

24 order to kill them if need be, wasn't it?

25 A. Well, one had to defend oneself so that they would not catch him

Page 1417

1 alive. But still, they got to him and tortured him.

2 Q. At that point when he gave you the gun, it's right, isn't it,

3 that no one had shot at you or threatened your life?

4 A. Shooting, yes. When the walls were all pockmarked by bullets

5 from all sides, from above, from below. They were firing from

6 everywhere.

7 Q. But no one had shot directly at you at that point or at your son.

8 A. We were inside the house and they were shooting outside.

9 Q. Your neighbour --

10 A. And through the windows.

11 Q. Your neighbour Stojka Stjepanovic came around and said, Come out,

12 the people won't hurt you. These are our neighbours. They will do you

13 no harm. Didn't she?

14 A. Yes. She came to the house and she yelled, Come on, Savka, come

15 out of the house. All of these people are our neighbours. They won't do

16 us any harm, they said so. But we didn't have the courage to go out.

17 Q. Instead, you told us today, we defended ourselves from the house,

18 which I take it to mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you were

19 shooting at the Muslims who had come into your village.

20 A. They were shooting.

21 Q. You also were shooting, at least your son was shooting, wasn't

22 he, from the window of the house?

23 A. Yes, from the door up there and around the house.

24 Q. Did you see if your son killed anyone when he was shooting from

25 the window?

Page 1418

1 A. No, I didn't, except for Ibrahim, but that was inside the house.

2 Q. And isn't -- is it right that your neighbours were also -- your

3 Serb neighbours were also shooting because Stojka was going to their

4 houses as well and imploring them to come out?

5 A. I didn't see that. I only saw her come to my house. But I

6 didn't see her go anywhere else because I was not able to see anything

7 else from my house.

8 Q. So just to be clear, it's right, isn't it, that you and your son

9 on that day, the 5th of October, were getting ready to fight to the death

10 essentially, even though your neighbours from Zanjevo had been friends

11 before the war and had not hurt you up to that point?

12 A. No. Up to that point, no, never. I couldn't say that we had

13 quarrel. We would be passing across each other's fields. Nobody barred

14 anybody else from doing that.

15 Q. So why is it on the 5th of October you were so afraid of your

16 former neighbours that you felt that you had to take this desperate

17 action? Was it from what you had heard on TV and radio or rumours or

18 something of that nature?

19 A. Because of the voices. There was shouting around the house.

20 They were saying, Come out, you Chetniks. And that's what we heard

21 around. So we didn't dare go outside.

22 Q. Were you in any doubt, though, when you and your son picked up

23 weapons and started shooting at these Muslims from your home that they

24 would treat you like soldiers and shoot back at you?

25 A. I don't know. We were afraid of that and we didn't dare come out

Page 1419

1 of the house and trust them that they would not harm us.

2 Q. Stojka --

3 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour.


5 MR. WUBBEN: Objection to the question itself. I take it that my

6 learned friend doesn't mean with his question, when I look at the

7 transcript that she, the witness herself, also started shooting. Is that

8 correct?

9 MR. JONES: I can clarify --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not, I did not. And I don't

12 know how.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It is correct. You are right, Mr. Wubben. Because

14 the suggestion was that both her husband -- her son and herself picked up

15 weapons and started shooting.

16 MR. JONES: My apologies. If I may clarify that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not. I did not pick up any

18 weapons.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we can leave it and proceed. It's

20 obvious now. Thank you.

21 Thank you, Mr. Wubben.


23 Q. Now, when Stojka came into your house later and tried to take

24 your son's gun off him, he told her to let go or he would kill her,

25 didn't he?

Page 1420

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then after Stojka left, Ibrahim came in and --

3 A. Yes, Ibrahim came in. He told me, Mom, lie down next to the

4 couch. And I went down on my knees and elbows. And then he was above my

5 head --

6 Q. If you could just answer the questions which I ask. Ibrahim came

7 in also to persuade you to leave your house, didn't he? That was his

8 purpose of coming in.

9 A. No, he didn't say anything. As he came in, my son threw the

10 bomb. He didn't come in with empty hands. He was carrying a weapon.

11 Q. But it's right, isn't it, Ibrahim came into your kitchen, didn't

12 say anything threatening or shoot at you, and your son threw in a grenade

13 and killed him. That's the basic fact, isn't it?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. You stopped her when she was trying to

15 explain what happened when Ibrahim walked into the house and went along

16 with that, but not anticipating that you were then going to suggest what

17 you are suggesting now.

18 Now, Madam, look at me. Tell me exactly how it happened.

19 Ibrahim walks or storms into your house. He asks you to do what? What

20 did he ask you to do?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He stormed in and this other one,

22 my son, threw the hand grenade and he was left lying there. We didn't

23 dare wait for anything with both of us in the house.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But when he stormed into the house, did he tell you

25 to kneel down or to do something? You started telling us that he told

Page 1421

1 you to --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, he didn't tell me, no.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ibrahim didn't tell you to lie down near the

4 carpet?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't say anything. As

6 soon as he stormed in, this other one, my son, threw the grenade.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

8 Yes, Mr. Jones.


10 Q. He walked in and got killed, basically?

11 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour. Objection. She first said it was

12 not walking in, it was more running in or something like that.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Stormed in, yeah.

14 MR. WUBBEN: So when my learned friend takes that as walking in,

15 that's not correct.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't knock at the door and say, Madam Djokic,

17 can I come? He just stormed in.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He stormed into the house and ...


20 Q. Let's move forward to another thing --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so, Mr. Jones.


23 Q. And I'm going to ask you first about some of the property which

24 you lost that day. You've mentioned a cow and a goat and they were

25 stolen from Edem Mahmutovic from Zanjevo, weren't they?

Page 1422

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And as for the rest of your livestock, you don't know whether

3 they wandered off on their own, whether they were eaten by foxes --

4 A. I don't know. I don't know. I went to Serbia later. I went to

5 Obrenovac and all of that was left behind.

6 Q. Now, to go back to your house and the damage to that house, is it

7 right that there was actually a fire started on that day, the 5th of

8 October, or was it subsequently? I wasn't clear from your testimony.

9 A. Yes, yes. On the 5th of October when we were in the house it was

10 thrown in and it exploded, and then it started to smoke and there was --

11 there were flames. And we were in the house, so we couldn't stay in the

12 house because of the smoke and we couldn't go outside because of the

13 enemy.

14 Q. And that fire was possibly started by Stojka Stjepanovic, wasn't

15 it, because shortly before you heard her discussing or being told to set

16 your house on fire.

17 A. No, not Stojka.

18 Q. You don't know who set your house on fire?

19 A. I don't know who set it on fire because Stojka could not do it.

20 There's a large -- there was a large hole in the house when this thing

21 exploded. It had to have been something thrown in by somebody from the

22 woods, and it came in through the window and it made a big hole in the

23 house.

24 Q. How far are the woods from your house?

25 A. Not that far. Maybe about 10, 15 metres away.

Page 1423

1 Q. So you're saying you think it's a person who could have thrown

2 this bomb or a weapon? Do you know?

3 A. I don't know who it was. I can't say who it was when I don't

4 know. I know that it was thrown in. There's a hole. The hole is still

5 there next to the -- next to the pantry. The whole house is --

6 Q. Yes, thanks. Mrs. Djokic, if you could keep your answers short,

7 please. If there's a pause it's because we're waiting for the

8 interpretation, not necessarily because we want you to go on.

9 Now, would you accept the following suggestion which I'm going to

10 make to you that the Muslims outside your house were being shot at by

11 your son and they wanted to smoke you out of your house so that you would

12 stop shooting at them, and that is why your house was set on fire? Would

13 you accept that suggestion?

14 A. As if my son was shooting? He wasn't shooting except for when

15 Ibrahim stormed in, then he threw the hand grenade. He did hold a rifle.

16 He was firing -- he was firing up there and defending himself. He was

17 defending himself. He had to defend himself.

18 Q. What I'm saying to you, Mrs. Djokic, is your son at least posed a

19 danger to the people outside. And my suggestion was that the reason why

20 a bomb or whatever was thrown into your house was to stop you posing a

21 danger to those people outside. My question is: Do you accept that that

22 is in fact what happened?

23 A. He could not pose a danger to them. He was only firing from the

24 door or perhaps if he went to the window. He couldn't really fire at

25 anyone if one of them was behind one side of the house or on the other

Page 1424

1 side behind the house. He couldn't do anything. He was shooting maybe

2 up in the woods.

3 Q. It's right, isn't it, that only your cold room or pantry was

4 burned. Your whole house wasn't destroyed.

5 A. Not the whole house.

6 Q. And staying with Divovici, it's right, isn't it, that the barn of

7 Vidoje Djukic was damaged but not his house?

8 A. The barn, the barn was damaged of Vidoje Djukic and not the -- I

9 don't know about the grain storage. I don't know about that.

10 Q. But not the -- sorry. I think there might be a difficulty with

11 the translation. I can repeat the translation but I think it was clear.

12 The house of Vidoje Djukic was not damaged, was it?

13 A. No, no, it wasn't.

14 Q. Nor the house of Milos Djukic.

15 A. The auxiliary building of Milos was destroyed and the stable of

16 Milos Djukic.

17 Q. But not his main house?

18 A. Milos's main house was preserved. The outbuilding was destroyed.

19 Q. In fact, it's right, isn't it, that in Divovici only two or three

20 houses and a couple of barns suffered fire damage out of 11 houses?

21 A. There were barns and houses and I've already said which ones had

22 burned. I didn't say that all the houses were burned, no.

23 Q. But the majority of houses were not burned. Isn't that right?

24 A. There was one, two -- one, two, three, and the outbuilding, four.

25 This was in Divovici. Four houses were burned. And then two barns

Page 1425

1 burned down. That's for Divovici.

2 Q. Yes. And for the houses which weren't damaged, it was perfectly

3 possible for people to live in those houses after the 5th of October.

4 A. Yes, to live.

5 Q. Now, coming to Radijevici, there it's right, isn't it, that it's

6 a question of essentially four buildings, the barn of Obren Vasic but not

7 his house; the house of Radoje Bozic, but not his barn; and the house of

8 Radivoje Katanic, but not his barn; and the house of Milic, but not his

9 barn. Is that a correct summary?

10 A. Minic's. Yes, yes.

11 Q. That's out of 25 houses in Radijevici.

12 A. No, not 25.

13 Q. The total houses in Radijevici, if you know?

14 A. I don't know how many there are houses there in total. I just

15 thought you said that all those houses had burned down and that's not so.

16 Q. Now, you mentioned you lost your son that day and that you

17 learned that he was missing an eye. It's right, isn't it, that that

18 could have happened after he had been killed?

19 A. Yes, broken. I don't know if it was when he was killed or when

20 he was tortured. I don't know.

21 Q. Didn't you tell us today that he was actually found under a

22 collapsed building?

23 A. Yes, underneath the storage house. We call it a storage house,

24 but it's not a building.

25 Q. Now, just a couple more questions. You've also told us today

Page 1426

1 that your son told you at the beginning of the attack that he knew which

2 forces were attacking you. That's what you've told us today. Now, it's

3 right, isn't it, that you made a statement in 1994, firstly. Do you

4 recall making a statement in 1994?

5 A. Yes, I know the year.

6 Q. And it's right, isn't it -- let me rephrase that. First --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not aware of this statement. We don't even

8 have a copy of it. At least I don't. I have got a statement which goes

9 back to the 25th of March of the year 2000. And then another statement

10 which goes back to the 20th of October of the year 2003.

11 MR. JONES: Yes, we have a spare copy which we'll pass up. I

12 apologise if Your Honours --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's not your fault, in any case.


15 Q. When you made that statement, Mrs. Djokic, you were aware,

16 weren't you, that it was for the purposes of a criminal investigation?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the witness.


19 Q. Would you repeat your answer, please, Mrs. Djokic.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreters couldn't hear you, Madam. Could

21 you repeat the answer, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I'm just listening.

23 MR. JONES: I'll ask another question.

24 Q. When you were asked about these events in 1994, you were aware,

25 weren't you, that this was an important matter, an investigation, that it

Page 1427

1 was important that you tell the truth, the whole truth, about everything

2 that you knew about the attack on your village?

3 A. I told them what I knew.

4 Q. And this was a year or so after the attack on your village,

5 wasn't it, the first statement you gave?

6 A. I don't know when we went to give this statement. I can't know

7 that. I'm illiterate. I didn't ask for the dates.

8 Q. The date -- the precise date isn't important. It was within a

9 reasonable time, within a year or so, of these events happening, wasn't

10 it, that you first spoke about the attack on your village?

11 A. It was on the 5th of October, the attack.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, that in the first statement you gave about

13 these events, you nowhere mentioned that your son said anything to you

14 about who might be attacking your village. Isn't that right?

15 A. Maybe I forgot or I didn't say.

16 Q. This is a statement which I'm talking about which you made not

17 now, 12 years after the events, but a year or two within the events. Are

18 you saying you forgot then, but you've remembered again the conversation

19 since?

20 A. I remember that when this man --

21 Q. Which man?

22 A. I didn't then when I was giving the statement, but now I -- I'm

23 -- it's about this man who was attacking.

24 Q. Right. So sorry, I'm still not following you. Did you when you

25 gave your first statement, are you saying you had forgotten about a

Page 1428

1 conversation which you had with your son and you've now remembered it --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: She's just saying that she acknowledges that she

3 may not have mentioned it during -- in the course of this statement but

4 she is remembering now. So.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.


7 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you subsequently made two more

8 statements, this time to the Prosecutor or investigators of this

9 Tribunal. Do you remember that, making statements to the Office of the

10 Prosecutor or investigators of the International Tribunal?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, that in neither of those statements either,

13 though you mention a great deal of the events you've told us about today,

14 again there's no mention of your son telling you anything about who might

15 be attacking your village. Isn't that right? Can you please speak up.

16 A. No. I forgot.

17 Q. This would have been a very important thing to mention, Mrs.

18 Djokic, wouldn't it? These are among the last words that your son ever

19 said to you. Are you really saying that you forgot for 12 years that he

20 said these things to you, and now 12 years later in The Hague you've all

21 of a sudden remembered? Is that what you're telling us?

22 A. He told me that then, but I didn't mention it. It didn't occur

23 to me.

24 Q. This is about the people who attacked your village. Surely all

25 this time you would have realised that if this conversation did take

Page 1429

1 place that that was a very important matter that you would have had to

2 mention to people who asked you about these events and you would have

3 mentioned it.

4 MR. JONES: It follows, Your Honour, this is a very important

5 point for us.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I suggest -- you've had your answer about

7 six times already. This is the position. She is not offering you an

8 explanation. She is just telling you, then I didn't say it; now I am

9 remembering it and I am saying it. Let the Chamber draw its own

10 conclusions.

11 MR. JONES: May I make one last suggestion to the witness or

12 question.

13 Q. Has someone suggested to you, Mrs. Djokic, that you should

14 mention now a conversation which you had never mentioned before?

15 A. No, nobody told me anything. Nobody told me anything. No one

16 told me anything.

17 Q. No further questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

19 I suggest that we are almost supposedly nearing the time for the

20 break, but instead of -- shall we conclude now --

21 MR. WUBBEN: Yes --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but it's easy for you to say it's okay, Mr.

23 Wubben. What I want to know is whether the rest of the staff behind the

24 glass -- I don't think we have more than a few minutes. How many -- how

25 much time do you require?

Page 1430

1 MR. WUBBEN: I have a couple of questions. I would need limited

2 to five minutes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One, two -- so can we overstay by about 10 minutes,

4 15 minutes, and then it will be over? Okay. I see from behind the glass

5 okay. So let's proceed.

6 We are soon going to finish, Madam Djokic. So bear with us a

7 little bit more and then it will be over and you can go back home.

8 Mr. Wubben.

9 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Wubben:

11 Q. When you were in the house during the attack, you told the Judges

12 that your son was shooting. What was he aiming at precisely and why was

13 he shooting?

14 A. How can I know? He was firing so that nobody would enter the

15 house.

16 Q. And was he the only person --

17 A. So that nobody would run into the house. Perhaps that's why he

18 was shooting. He was afraid.

19 Q. He was afraid. And you were afraid as well?

20 A. We were afraid.

21 Q. And was your son the only person who was shooting at the time or

22 at the same time there were more shooting from other persons?

23 A. There was shooting from up there, from the sides. And he was

24 afraid that somebody wouldn't run into the house and kill us.

25 Q. And at that very time of this shooting of this Ibrahim storming

Page 1431

1 in, did you notice that your village was under attack or did you pay only

2 attention to your own house if so?

3 A. It was completely attacked, all of it, on the 5th of October.

4 Q. What do you mean by that --

5 A. It was attacked Boljevici, Radijevici, Kutijesi. This is

6 something I heard later when I crossed the Drina, that there were

7 attacks. There were houses which burned in Boljevici as well, but I

8 don't know much about that.

9 Q. Next question. And may I take it when your son was shooting and

10 acting like this in your house, was he defending you and himself in your

11 house?

12 MR. JONES: That's an extremely loaded question, Your Honour --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our house he was defending us.

14 MR. JONES: It's an opinion of who's defending and who's

15 attacking.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go, go. She understood what was happening --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: She understood what was happening, that her son was

19 defending himself -- herself and also the house. That's her opinion.


21 Q. May I ask you: Who in fact did kill your husband?

22 A. Yes. I don't know. I don't know who killed who. But when my

23 husband was killed, that was when Ibrahim came barging into our house and

24 that was when my son threw the grenade.

25 Q. And did your son throw the grenade to defend himself also or was

Page 1432

1 there another reason? Why should he throw a grenade to someone storming

2 in his house?

3 MR. JONES: He asking her to speculate about the motives of his

4 son.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't even think there is room for speculation.

6 It's obvious to me. I don't need the witness to explain this. There was

7 an attack and all of a sudden you have someone storm in the house with a

8 rifle and ammunition round has --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This Ibrahim, he came in carrying a

10 rifle, but no one else.



13 Q. You were referring to a name. Correct me --

14 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if re-examination is to be confined to

15 matters raised in cross-examination. I didn't raise issues of names --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But I haven't heard the question as of yet.

17 MR. JONES: But I'm anticipating --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let us see. I will stop him if he goes beyond. I

19 don't know what the question is.

20 MR. JONES: It's only I deliberately avoided getting into the

21 whole question of names and there were questions which I would have asked

22 otherwise.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You put the surname of Mujkic or Mujkic to the

24 witness and she have never mentioned it.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I recall a list of names of -- house --

Page 1433

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Wubben, but you know what the

2 limitations of re-examination are -- should be.


4 Q. In your answering of the question of the counsel of the other

5 side, you referred to a name, and correct me if I'm wrong, Orlici. Is

6 that correct?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, she had mentioned Orlici in her testimony and

8 he --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Orlic --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and Mr. Jones referred her to that. So go

11 straight. In other words, she had mentioned Orlici.


13 Q. What did you mean by a name called Orlici? Did you mean a place

14 or a region or a person? What did you mean by it or something else?

15 A. Well, I meant a person probably who was attacking.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait a moment.

17 Quite a few minutes ago, Madam, you were asked the question:

18 "When asked as to who the attackers were," part of your response was:

19 "They were from outside, from Orlici."

20 Actually, earlier on --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Orlic, Orlic, like that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Earlier on I myself had asked you: Who were these

23 people? Where did they come from? Where were they? And according to

24 the transcript -- one moment. Let me finish. I am just trying to help

25 you to explain.

Page 1434

1 And when I asked you this question almost more than an hour ago,

2 you told me: Muslims and those people. They were from outside, from

3 Orlici. And I don't know. I forgot the places, the name of the places.

4 They attacked the Drina Valley. They were torching and killing.

5 So when you mentioned "Orlici," were you referring to a place or

6 were you referring to a person? Because the way I read it here you are

7 referring to a place.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a person, not a place. A

9 person.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know of any place called Orlici?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.


14 Q. Does that name "Orlici" refer to a person called Naser Oric or --

15 MR. JONES: Excuse me, that's outrageous.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer the question.

17 MR. JONES: That's an outrageous question.

18 MR. WUBBEN: I withdraw this question.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.


21 Q. Does that -- let me rephrase the question.

22 MR. JONES: I think my learned friend should move on.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I will stop the witness from answering if it's not

24 -- yes.


Page 1435

1 Q. If you don't know a name like that referring to a place, does

2 that name that you called Orlici refer to a specific name of a person or

3 not, or don't you know?

4 A. The person that led the army. That was Nasir Orlic.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. That's finalised.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.

7 Judge Brydensholt. Judge Brydensholt, to my right, would like to

8 put a question to you, Madam, please.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: You mentioned that your neighbour I think it

11 was, Stojka, came into your house twice actually and asked you to go out

12 and asked your son to leave his gun behind. What -- do you know what

13 happened in other houses --

14 A. No, she grabbed the rifle. She grabbed the rifle when she came

15 over to call us to come out and she grabbed the rifle that Svetozar was

16 holding and she said, come out, Svetozar, our neighbours are out there.

17 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Do you know if she went to other houses and

18 asked the other villagers to go out --

19 A. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't see anything. I didn't

20 hear anything. I don't know.

21 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Later on have you heard that any of the

22 inhabitants went out? What happened to the other inhabitants, the other

23 neighbours you had in the hamlet? What happened to them?

24 A. They all ran away. They all escaped. They were picking corn out

25 in the field, and whoever heard the sounds of shooting, those people just

Page 1436

1 tried to escape. There was no one left in the houses with the exception

2 of Sujika. Sujika was the only one left and her grandchildren stayed

3 back in Milovan's house. They were alive.

4 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Do you know what happened to Stojka herself?

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the answer.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you repeat -- can I ask you to repeat your

7 answer, please, because the interpreters couldn't hear you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was killed near the storage

9 facility down there. That's at least what I heard. They found her. My

10 Svetozar was there, too.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 Judge Eser would like to put some questions to you.

13 JUDGE ESER: I only want to ask you one question. You told us

14 that not all houses have been burned but that barns have been burned

15 down. Now, my question is: These barns, have they been empty or have

16 there been some crops before or later on? What was the situation of

17 these barns?

18 A. No, the barns didn't burn down. They collapsed. They were

19 knocked down. That was my storage facility that was knocked down and it

20 fell down on top of my son. As for the other storage facilities in

21 Divovici, those were not burned down, just the houses.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 I have a final question for you, Madam. On that day when you

24 lost your husband and also your son, do you remember seeing a certain

25 Aris Ridic?

Page 1437

1 A. I said that, but I am not sure and I never mentioned it again.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember seeing Izet Hasanovic?

3 A. Izet, I don't know.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Izet Hasanovic.

5 A. I don't know. I didn't see him.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: My last question: Vidoje Djukic and Radovan

7 Djukic, was there any shooting that you may know of from their house?

8 Were they offering resistance?

9 A. I didn't see that. I didn't see that. I only heard sounds of

10 moaning from their house but I don't know who was moaning. It was during

11 the attack.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's the end of it, Madam Djokic. We have

13 finished with your testimony. You are free to go back home now. You

14 will soon be escorted out of this courtroom by Madam Usher, but before

15 you leave this courtroom on my own behalf, on behalf of Judge Brydensholt

16 and on behalf of Judge Eser and also on behalf of the Tribunal, I would

17 like to thank you for having come over to give testimony, to give

18 evidence in this trial. I can assure you that once you're out of this

19 courtroom you will be attended to and you will receive all the assistance

20 you require to enable you to return back home. Our last words on behalf

21 of everyone, I wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you.

22 Wait, wait, wait, wait. We go into private session, please,

23 because she will be leaving her place and going out. So that no one can

24 see your face.

25 [Private session]

Page 1438

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And that again I must show you both my appreciation

8 for having conducted the direct and the cross in really good time.

9 Tomorrow we have the next witness. I won't mention the name,

10 I'll just refer him as number 5 on the list that I have available.

11 Right. I take it that you still require two hours, more or less?

12 MR. WUBBEN: More or less, Your Honour. You -- well, as a lawyer

13 you can say after proofing more, but we --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. More or less. I want to make sure we

15 can finish with this witness tomorrow.

16 And Madam Vidovic?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will do my best as

18 usual, but we shall take at least two hours no cross-examine this

19 particular witness.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. That's fine. I think we can

21 adjourn for today. I wish to thank also the rest of the staff as usual,

22 the very cooperative interpreters and technical staff.

23 And I wish that to make a public statement on this, I usually do.

24 This has been going on for quite a few days. We have managed to finish

25 the testimony of practically one witness per day, and that's thanks to

Page 1439

1 you but also thanks to the cooperation of the interpreters and the

2 technical staff that had stayed with us overtime, sort of. And I wish

3 that this part of the record of today be transmitted to the heads -- the

4 respective -- the heads of the respective units, translation, technical,

5 et cetera, and also to the President of this Tribunal, because I think he

6 ought to know that the cooperation of the staff, apart from counsel on

7 both sides, is contributing to a large extent to reducing the time frame

8 that we are taking to conclude our cases. I thank you all.

9 We will meet again tomorrow morning at 9.00. I'm not quite sure

10 but I think it's still in this courtroom. Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.15 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 29th day of

13 October, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.