Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1545

1 Monday, 1 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, good morning. Case Number

7 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good morning to you.

9 Mr. Oric, good morning. Can you follow the proceedings in a

10 language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour,

12 gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may please take a chair.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour. My name is Jan Wubben

16 senior trial attorney, together with co-counsel Gramsci Di Fazio, and our

17 case manager, Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And good morning to your team.

19 Appearances for Naser Oric.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am

21 Vasvija Vidovic together with Mr. John Jones. I represent Mr. Naser Oric.

22 Together with us are our legal assistant Ms. Jasmina Cosic and our CaseMap

23 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic. And good morning to you

25 and your team.

Page 1546

1 So are there any preliminaries?

2 MR. WUBBEN: No. Thank you, Your Honour

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I've just signed before the sitting the

5 decision on he adjudicated facts, so it should be available. We have

6 all -- also discussed this morning the Prosecution response to the Defence

7 response on the application of the Rule 92 bis (C) to the evidence or to

8 the statement of Mr. Bogicevic. I think for practical reasons until we

9 finish the process of having Mr. -- the other person - I'm not going to

10 mention the name - examined by the doctor, medical doctor that you have

11 agreed upon, since we don't know when that's going to happen and when we

12 will have the report, and since I will be travelling, as I told you, the

13 day after tomorrow, we've decided to split the decision into two. We will

14 decide by tomorrow the motion as regards the dead witness. And we will

15 reserve the position with regard to the other witness, pending the outcome

16 of the medical certification. Okay.

17 So that's it. If there is the need for decisions to be taken

18 while the Trial Chamber is not sitting, I have made arrangements and that

19 will be possible. In other words, even without my presence here in

20 The Hague, I will be making use of an electronic signature so that

21 anything that needs to be decided during the break will be decided. In

22 other words, there will not be any time lost.

23 So I think, Madam Usher, if you could be kind enough to bring the

24 witness in, please.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 1547

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Stevanovic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. I hope you have had enough time to

4 rest after last Friday's testimony. Today we will certainly finish with

5 your testimony.

6 Madam Usher is going to give you again the text of the solemn

7 declaration. I would like you to read it out again -- aloud again and

8 that would remind you that you are testifying under a solemn undertaking

9 with us that you would be testifying the truth, nothing but the truth. Go

10 ahead.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, Stanisa Stevanovic, witness,

12 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

13 but the truth.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

15 Madam Vidovic.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Stevanovic.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. On Friday you described a few incidents that occurred in the area

22 where you lived in April and May 1992, including the barricades in

23 Mocevici, the incident related to the death of Mr. Milanovic, and also

24 what happened in Zeleni Jadar. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1548

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Also in response to my question about the barricades in Mocevici,

4 you said that the Serbs at that time held Srebrenica and that the local

5 Muslims were afraid that tanks would come from that area. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. I think that it is correct, that they were in Srebrenica that is,

8 as far as I know.

9 Q. This is the second half of April and the first part of -- or

10 rather, the first third of May 1992. Is that right?

11 A. I don't know exactly. Because on the 8th of May, Goran Zekic was

12 killed and that's when the Serbs left Srebrenica, as far as I know.

13 Q. So the truth is that until the 8th of May the Serbs held

14 Srebrenica. Isn't that right?

15 A. As far as I know, yes.

16 Q. Srebrenica is a municipality in which you lived. Your village

17 belongs to the municipality of Srebrenica. Isn't that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At that time you were certainly interested in what was going on in

20 your municipality, weren't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, did you hear that at that time in Srebrenica 75

25 Muslims from Srebrenica were killed or went missing, including 10 women?

Page 1549

1 A. I did not hear about that.

2 Q. You were familiar with the situation in the area because you moved

3 about and you were in touch with people, including people from Fakovici.

4 Isn't that right?

5 A. No.

6 Q. In mid-May you were in that area, weren't you?

7 A. In Bradjevina, yes.

8 Q. On Friday you indicated Zanjevo to us on the map, one of the

9 neighbouring Muslim villages. Isn't that right?

10 A. That's a village in the local commune of Fakovici.

11 Q. But that village is close to your village, isn't it?

12 A. Well, seven or eight kilometres, I think.

13 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, what happened to the Muslims in Zanjevo on

14 the 15th, 16th, and 17th of May? Have you heard anything about that

15 perhaps?

16 A. I heard that they left their homes, too, that they were fleeing as

17 well.

18 Q. Did you hear that 300 people fled to the neighbouring forests?

19 A. I don't know how many -- I didn't know how many and I didn't know

20 even now.

21 Q. You heard that people did flee to the neighbouring forests?

22 A. I don't know where they fled but I heard that they had fled.

23 Q. Did you perhaps hear that three old men and two women were killed

24 in Zanjevo itself?

25 A. No.

Page 1550

1 Q. Have you perhaps heard that 345 of them were captured and closed,

2 confined, in the elementary school in Fakovici, the one that you indicated

3 to us last time, and that they suffered terribly there. You had to know

4 that.

5 A. How come I would have to know about that, Mrs. Vidovic?

6 Q. Until then there were no killings that took place or not every day

7 in that area, rather?

8 A. That's true.

9 Q. But, Mr. Stevanovic, you describe in detail all the incidents that

10 occurred in relation to the Serbs in your entire area. How come you

11 haven't heard anything that has to do with the death and persecution of

12 Muslims?

13 A. Mrs. Vidovic, I am only talking about the local commune of

14 Ratkovici, what happened around my hamlet. As for Fakovici, Zanjevo,

15 Orlica, Togevo [phoen], I don't know about that.

16 Q. But you talked about Zeleni Jadar as well, the incidents there.

17 A. I mentioned that when I said that I went to get my wife's mother

18 and I couldn't get her out, so I went back. So this was near the school,

19 near Pozorici [phoen]. So that's how far I got and then I had to come

20 back.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now use the map

23 again, the one that we handed in on Friday. D46 is the number, I believe.

24 Can you just turn the map 180 degrees, please. That's right.

25 Thank you. Thank you.

Page 1551

1 Q. Witness, could you please look at the map and could you please

2 indicate the Muslim villages to us: Tegare, Zapolje and Orlica.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's better if we zoom in. The right-hand

4 central part of the map because that would make it -- zoom in, not zoom

5 out. That would make it easier for the witness to point -- at least he

6 can see the villages better in any case, because it's only Zapolje that

7 stands out.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So Witness, Zapolje, Orlica - that is to say, both Donja Orlica

10 and Gornja Orlica - and Tegare.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Madam Vidovic, he showed us these last time

12 with the exception of Tegare.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, yes. Your

14 Honour, in relation to that I have a question. This is where I broke off

15 last time.

16 Q. Witness, please, is it correct that these Muslim villages were

17 attacked on the 16th of May from the direction of Ratkovici?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Is it correct that people were expelled from these villages, that

20 women were raped, and that they were persecuted throughout May and June in

21 that area?

22 A. I'm not aware of anything like that.

23 Q. I now ask you to show the Trial Chamber the area of Grabovacka

24 Rijeka and Sase.

25 A. [Witness complies].

Page 1552

1 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness indicates the extremity

2 of horizontal line 86 the village of Grabovacka Rijeka. And the other

3 village?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Sase is in that area. Isn't that right, Witness? Perhaps it's

6 not on the map, but isn't it correct that Sase is in that area. But I

7 think it actually is on the map.

8 A. Here it is.

9 Q. All right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I ask you to encircle that name, Sase, please

11 and put your initials against it.

12 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Is it correct that the area of Grabovacka Rijeka and Sase was held

16 by the Serb army in May?

17 A. There was no military in Grabovacka Rijeka. As for Sase, I don't

18 know.

19 Q. Is it correct that this is in the immediate vicinity of your

20 village, Grabovacka Rijeka?

21 A. Grabovacka Rijeka, yes. Sase, no.

22 Q. Witness, did you hear or see or know for that matter that in Sase

23 there was a camp where numerous Muslims from these villages that we

24 discussed were brought in, Orlica, Zapolje, Tegare?

25 A. No.

Page 1553

1 Q. I'm going to ask you something else now, Witness. You knew the

2 family, the Markovic family. You mentioned their house last time.

3 A. There are several Markovics. I don't know which one you're

4 referring to.

5 Q. Did you know Ognjen Markovic, nicknamed Bato?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct, Witness, isn't it, that on the 8th of May, 1992 you

8 were in Podkorjen together with him when Podkorjen was attacked as well as

9 the entire village -- Muslim village of Poznanovici?

10 A. That is not correct, Mrs. Vidovic.

11 Q. Do you agree that you know many Muslims in Poznanovici and

12 Podkorjen and they know you, too?

13 A. I know a number but not many. I know more people from Mocevici

14 because it's closer.

15 Q. Ognjen Markovic got killed that day in Podkorjen. Isn't that

16 correct?

17 A. Ognjen Markovic went missing when he went to Brezani as far as I

18 know, not when Poznanovici was attacked. The attack on Poznanovici was in

19 1993.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please place Defence

21 Exhibit D45 on the ELMO. This is a list of killed fighters. The list of

22 killed fighters from military post code Bratunac 7042 from 1992 to 1996.

23 Q. Please, Witness, could you leaf through the document and please

24 look at number 298. 298, have you found it? Number 298 it says Markovic,

25 father's name Andrija, Ognjen, born on the 20th of December, 1950 in

Page 1554

1 Fakovici. Killed on the 8th of June, 1992 in the village of Podkorjen.

2 Have you seen this, Witness? Number 298. Have you seen that? Could you

3 please move the document to the left, please.

4 A. I've seen it.

5 Q. You've seen it. Can you give me an answer, Mr. Stevanovic. What

6 was Ognjen Markovic doing in the Muslim village of Podkorjen on the 8th of

7 June, 1992?

8 A. It's not correct that he was in the village. He was killed in the

9 forest on his way to Brezani, not in the village as far as I know. He

10 went missing until the present day he hasn't been found. People don't

11 even know whether he was killed.

12 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber who was Ognjen Markovic.

13 A. Ognjen Markovic was a man named Ognjen. That's all I know.

14 Q. You wish to say that Ognjen Markovic was in fact not a local

15 commander?

16 A. Not as far as I know. Had he been a commander, he would have been

17 in Fakovici. The TO commander in Fakovici was Slavko Jovanovic and not

18 Jovanovic and not Ognjen Markovic, as far as I know.

19 Q. Witness, what I'm asking in relation to events in connection with

20 the Serbs you answered the questions in the following way: You said on

21 Friday that you heard the Muslims had attacked Oparci in early June 1992.

22 How come you had never heard that the nearby villages of Podkorjen,

23 Poznanovici, and Dedici had also been attacked in early June 1992, sir?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

Page 1555

1 MR. DI FAZIO: It's always difficult for anyone to tell you why

2 they don't know something. I don't know how black holes function in the

3 universe. I don't know these things. And it's very difficult for a

4 witness to say why it is that he doesn't now. He said that he didn't hear

5 about these attacks. How can he explain how it is that he hasn't heard

6 about them?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You are perfectly right, Mr. Di Fazio, but let him

8 answer the question because basically it's a style of questioning that we

9 are -- we have to deal with rather than the way that the witness answers.

10 This is very typical of the area and of the tradition, legal tradition,

11 that Madam Vidovic comes from.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So I am tolerating it. On the other hand, the

14 witness has already stated that with regard to the attack on Podri --

15 whatever the name is, the attack was in 1993 and not in 1992.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think if you let me continue going the same way

18 I am, it will make things easier.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the witness would understand exactly what is

21 being asked for. He is being asked to give an explanation. Rather than

22 give an explanation, rather than a chance an opportunity to correct

23 himself. So this is how it's --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that, Your Honour. And I certainly

25 don't wish to be, appear to be or to be nit-picking and jumping up to my

Page 1556

1 feet all the time. However, I thought at that moment that it was really

2 quite -- had reached the point where the witness should be protected and I

3 should object.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think the witness will feel that he is being

5 harassed in the least, because this is quite typical actually.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: As Your Honours pleases.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Witness, in Fakovici, and that is your own local commune, there

10 was strong TO forces and the Bircanska Brigade forces. Isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. Mrs. Vidovic, I must say this again, not in my local commune,

13 which was Ratkovici and not Fakovici. I must say this again.

14 Q. What you refer to as guards in Ratkovici, were those part of the

15 TO Fakovici detachment?

16 A. No, they weren't.

17 Q. On Friday you described something about the 21st of June, 1992 for

18 us and you stated, as you had in your previous testimony of 2000 - you

19 will certainly remember that - you said that TO units had arrived from

20 Fakovici and that together with the relatives of those that were killed

21 and wounded they evacuated those that were killed or wounded. Is that

22 correct, sir?

23 A. It is true that they arrived in Ratkovici. Along Mleca, not

24 Grabovacka Rijeka to Ratkovici. I don't know who came because I wasn't

25 there, but I heard they had arrived there to pick up those people over

Page 1557

1 there. How many, I don't know. Some probably they picked up and some

2 they didn't. In Fakovici I have some close relatives and in Opravdici as

3 well.

4 Q. On that day there was a TO unit from Fakovici present there,

5 wasn't it?

6 A. I don't know if it was a TO unit or whoever. A group of persons

7 arrived. That's all I know.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Let us please now move on to the

9 attack of the 27th of June, 1992, the attack on Bradjevina.

10 Witness, you and others from your village, did you resist the

11 attackers?

12 A. Mrs. Vidovic, how do you imagine 12 people who have already been

13 caught out in broad daylight? We weren't even in the trenches and we

14 didn't have enough weapons to put up resistance to very many people who

15 were attacking us from all sides. What sort of resistance do you imagine

16 we would have been able to put up in a situation like that?

17 Q. Was there any firing from the houses in Bradjevina?

18 A. Who would have been in a position to fire from inside the houses?

19 That's my question to you.

20 Q. So the answer is no?

21 A. Precisely.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

23 Mr. Stevanovic, you are becoming a little bit aggressive. Madam

24 Vidovic is doing her duty here. She has every right to put all the

25 questions that the Trial Chamber allows to you. And you have every right

Page 1558

1 to answer those questions according to what you believe is the right

2 answer. But you have no right to start arguing with Madam Vidovic or to

3 become aggressive in her regard. I will not let you do that. So cool

4 down a little bit because otherwise we will have to deal with you in a

5 different manner.

6 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, I will now draw your attention to a testimony that

9 you provided in 1994. You gave a statement to the investigating

10 magistrate Vaso Eric in Zvornik on the 20th of December, 1994. Isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: If his answer is no, that means that we have to

14 clarify something. I have, Madam Vidovic, is copy of what purports to be

15 a copy of that statement, both in the original language, in the Serbian

16 language, with ERN 00652396. Perhaps we can make that available, show it

17 to the witness. And then he --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And he will first confirm to us whether that is his

20 statement or not.

21 Mr. Stevanovic, look at the document, please, particularly at the

22 bottom of each page of that document. There is a signature in Cyrillic.

23 Is that your signature?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So look at the top -- first line of that -- of the

Page 1559

1 first page of that document and that is after -- just below the title

2 which basically reads out "record of witness interview." And there is the

3 date there of the 20th of December, 1994, and also the indication of the

4 town of Zvornik as being the town of the investigating judge, the

5 investigating judge, Vaso Eric. Do you remember giving a statement to

6 Judge Vaso Eric on the 20th of December, 1994? And if you do remember,

7 where did you give that statement, please?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my recollection, I

9 gave a statement at home to a man named Slavisa who was an investigator,

10 but I was never in Zvornik. I was in Milici where I gave one and in

11 Bratunac at the Vuk Karadzic school, but that was in the year 2000, as far

12 as I remember. As for this specific statement, it was actually given when

13 I was at home.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I proceed?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically that explains it. Because we had that

16 with the previous witness as well. Where you have at the top of the page

17 the indication of the words Zvornik, that's not indicating the place where

18 the statement was taken but the place where the investigating judge works,

19 in which the place of the court to which the investigating judge is

20 attached.

21 So I think you can go ahead, Madam Vidovic, please.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.

23 Q. So, Witness, you did give that statement after all, didn't you?

24 A. Yes. Back at home.

25 Q. Very well. You signed that statement, didn't you?

Page 1560

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. There is a whole series of details in that statement in relation

3 to you, to your family, to how many of you there are, as well as some

4 facts that you referred to last Friday.

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Can you now please look at page 5 of that statement from 1994, the

7 page is 01905660 of the English version, paragraph 3. Witness, can you

8 please locate page 5 in your copy. You said at the time: "Although we

9 were not many, we tried to put up resistance. Although we were few, we

10 tried to do whatever we could. Since the Muslim forces outnumbered us by

11 a long shot and they had already entered the hamlet, we were forced to

12 pull out any way we could. We went down as far as Grabovacka Rijeka and

13 we waited for the attack to subside and for the Muslims to withdraw."

14 In the same paragraph of that statement from 1994 you

15 continued: "After about two o'clock I decided to go back to the village,

16 alongside with Milan Arsenovic; Jovanovic, Milosav; Dragan Jovanovic; and

17 Sreten Stjepanovic, all of them from Vranesevici. They had arrived to

18 help. Near the corner of Zivko Stevanovic's house we found a body, a body

19 that belonged to my uncle's brother, Stojan Stevanovic. We found the body

20 of my cousin, Stojan Stevanovic. I realised that his throat had been

21 cut."

22 Mr. Stevanovic, you said on Friday that you saw him killed with

23 your own eyes and you described a number of details in connection with

24 that. You even went on to name the persons who did that. That was a

25 complete fabrication, wasn't it, on your part?

Page 1561

1 A. No, it wasn't.

2 Q. You also described an attack that in actual fact you never saw.

3 Why did you decide not to tell the truth about this particular event, sir?

4 A. I am telling the truth and nothing but the truth.

5 Q. Do you wish to say that you personally witnessed the killing and

6 death of Stojan Stevanovic?

7 A. Yes, precisely.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will again draw the

9 witness's attention to this specific part of the testimony under

10 consideration.

11 Q. Witness, can you please now have a look at pages 0652401,

12 paragraph 3, of the B/C/S version of the same statement. This is page

13 01905661 of the English. I quote: "In the meantime we had captured one

14 Muslim soldier who had been stealing the potatoes and beans in Petar

15 Prokic's in the village of Ruljevici. His name is Mehmed Tiro born in

16 1967 in the village of Orlica. During his interrogation, he admitted that

17 he had taken part in the attack against my own hamlet Bradjevina.

18 Therefore, I also spoke to him. He then confessed that he had -- that

19 Fikret Secic had cut my brother Stojan's throat, father Izmet from the

20 village of Mocevici and so on and so forth."

21 Mr. Stevanovic, this is an entirely different story from the one

22 you told to this court on Friday, isn't it?

23 A. Let me tell you something. I didn't give this statement. I don't

24 know who gave this statement and what exactly was done. I know that

25 Sinisa from Zvornik came to see me at my place and question me. How my

Page 1562

1 signature ever got here -- and this is a typewritten copy. He never

2 brought a typewriter with him when he came to question me.

3 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, do you wish to say that you didn't have any

4 contacts with Mr. Mehmed Tiro. Is that what you're trying to say?

5 A. Yes, I was in touch with Tiro.

6 Q. What is in fact true, Mr. Stevanovic, is that you questioned

7 Mr. Mehmed Tiro, didn't you?

8 A. No, it wasn't me that did the questioning. I was only present

9 when he was being questioned by others.

10 Q. But in this statement given, say, about two years after the events

11 or perhaps one year after the original question, and I will give you a

12 specific date, you described a number of details stating that you were the

13 one who interviewed him?

14 A. You know how it was. You keep talking about something but what

15 actually gets written down, recorded, is sometimes not the same as what

16 was originally said.

17 Q. Can you please now look at the last page of this statement from

18 1994, the very last page. Can you look at the last sentence, please, it

19 reads: "The transcript was read back aloud and it faithfully reflects

20 what I said. I do not wish to go back to it. I hereby confirm its

21 authenticity with my signature. The transcript was read back aloud and it

22 faithfully reflects what I said."

23 Is it true that that's what it says?

24 A. No, it's not true. Because whoever refuses -- he is it that

25 refuses to actually read what was written and states that he confirms the

Page 1563

1 transcript's authenticity. I would have needed to go back to the

2 transcript to check if everything was authentic in the first place.

3 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, were you not a police officer in 1992?

4 A. No,.

5 Q. Were you working for the military security service back in 1992?

6 A. No, I wasn't.

7 Q. You said here that you captured Mr. Tiro when he was stealing

8 potatoes and beans. Is that true? Is it true that Mr. Tiro was captured

9 in your presence? Let's put it that way.

10 A. Not in my presence but he was captured.

11 Q. Why would a person who would write this kind of record write

12 something of this nature? How could this person know that?

13 A. How could I know how this person found out?

14 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, the truth is that on this critical occasion,

15 together with Serb soldiers, you fired at a group of people, including

16 Tiro and that you wounded him seriously.

17 A. He was wounded, yes.

18 Q. It is also true that you interviewed a man who was seriously

19 wounded?

20 A. I was at the clinic in Fakovici with Tiro.

21 Q. On the 25th of August, 1992, when all of this was happening,

22 Mr. Mehmed Tiro was not alone when he was captured. Isn't that right?

23 A. He was captured when he was alone.

24 Q. At that time he was not alone when he was shot at. Isn't that

25 correct?

Page 1564

1 A. I don't know about that.

2 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, you attacked a group of people. Isn't that

3 correct? Isn't that true?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Among these people, Mr. Stevanovic, was Bitici, Sacir, Mr. Tiro's

6 brother-in-law or son-in-law. Does that mean anything to you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. He was also wounded on that occasion. He lost a leg. You walked

9 up to him and used a submachine-gun to fire at him, at his head. Isn't

10 that true, Mr. Stevanovic?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, that is the reason why you changed your story here

13 in The Hague, and you completely forgot about Mr. Tiro and everything you

14 said in 1994. Isn't that right?

15 A. No.

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 [Private session]

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 1565

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you please repeat your question, Madam

16 Vidovic -- I am going to repeat it myself.

17 Mr. Stevanovic, the question that was put to you is the

18 following: "Mr. Tiro is not the only person that you interrogated in this

19 way. Isn't that right?" And you answered: "That's not correct."

20 So, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You also interrogated other Muslims, including Mr. Saban

23 Jakupovic. Isn't that right?

24 A. Yes. I was with him in Srebrenica -- rather, in Bratunac. I

25 wanted to see him. I went to see him.

Page 1566

1 Q. But in your statement given to the Prosecutor in the year 2000 you

2 said that you interrogated Saban Jakupovic and you described that in

3 detail. You said that you personally interrogated him.

4 A. I said that I was there and that I asked him about a few things

5 and that there was also this man called Sinisa from Zvornik and who was

6 interrogating him and I was there.

7 Q. Why would you be interrogating Muslim prisoners at all,

8 Mr. Stevanovic? You were not authorised to do that kind of thing. Isn't

9 that right?

10 A. No, I was not authorised for that kind of thing. But since he's a

11 neighbour I wanted to see him, chat to him, nothing else.

12 Q. It is true, Mr. Stevanovic, that actually in this way you abused

13 many Muslims. Isn't that right?

14 A. No.

15 Q. It's also true that you frequently visited the prison in Skelani

16 where Muslims were abused. Isn't that right?

17 A. No, that's not right.

18 Q. That is where Mr. Tiro, Mehmed, ended up. Isn't that right?

19 A. No. He's living in the United States alive and healthy. He was

20 treated at the hospital in Uzice and he left, Mrs. Vidovic.

21 Q. It is true that he is now in the USA, but when I said "ended up,"

22 I mean he ended up there after your interrogation of the prisoner in

23 Skelani. Are you trying to say that that is not true?

24 A. From Fakovici they took him to Skelani. There was this

25 Territorial Defence in Fakovici, not in Skelani.

Page 1567

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, Judge Eser has a question.

2 JUDGE ESER: I have a question with the language. In English it

3 appears "interrogation". Do you mean interrogation in a formal sense?

4 Because the witness always answered that he asked. So I think there's a

5 difference between asking and interrogating. So is it clear in the

6 Bosnian language this difference between interrogation and asking or

7 interviewing?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In our language the word is

9 "ispitivanje." It can refer to both. Investigation is one thing, but

10 "ispitivanje" can mean interrogation within proceedings that take place

11 in the police. Investigation is something that is judicial, that is part

12 of the judicial system in our language.

13 JUDGE ESER: When you asked him, you are asking him whether he

14 interrogated these people, not only had a talk with them.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Correct. Correct, Your Honour.

16 That's correct, yes. Precisely. That is what I have in mind.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.

18 Thank you, Madam Vidovic, for the explanation. Let's proceed,

19 please.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, it is also true that you organised the guards in

22 that area, in the area of Ratkovici. Isn't that right?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When you described in your statement of 1984 [as interpreted] what

25 happened then, you said that the people from Vranesevici came to help on

Page 1568

1 that day. Is that correct?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Is it correct that Vranesevici is a nearby village that includes a

4 nearby hamlet called Ruljevic.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Vranesevici had an entire Territorial Defence unit, didn't it?

7 A. No.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please ask the usher to put

9 document number 00656808 on the ELMO. This is a list.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Just for the record, Judge Eser is drawing my

11 attention that on line 9 of the transcript which page, page 23, reads your

12 statement of 1984. It should be your statement of 1994.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, 1994.

14 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at this document. This is

15 the Grabovacka Rijeka-Vranesevici Territorial Defence list from the

16 document seized at the Bratunac Brigade. Please look at number 7, Milan

17 Arsenovic, and number 21 Jovanovic, Dragan. Have you seen it, Arsenovic,

18 Milan? And number 20 is Jovanovic, Slavoljub. And underneath that there

19 is a sign that we customarily use when things are repeated. So the

20 surname Jovanovic is repeated. And then it says Dragan.

21 Now, my question is the following: These are men who you actually

22 mentioned in your statement from 1994 as people who came with you from

23 Grabovacka Rijeka to Bradjevina. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. So, Mr. Stevanovic, together with you on that day the

Page 1569

1 unit of the TO Vranesevici fought with you on that day against the

2 Muslims. Isn't that right?

3 A. No.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this exhibit please be given a

5 number?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What's the next number, D47?

7 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours, D48.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being admitted in evidence as

9 Defence document or Defence exhibit D48. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, you mentioned that you had the impression that

12 Vekaz Husic was the commander in everything that was going on. Where is

13 he from?

14 A. From Mocevici.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you.

16 On Friday you said that after the attack on Bradjevina you stayed

17 in Fakovici only for about 20 days and you then went to Serbia and you

18 returned from there on the 6th of October, 1992. Did I understand you

19 correctly?

20 A. You did not.

21 Q. What is the truth?

22 A. On the 6th I just crossed over to collect the dead from Fakovici

23 and we returned to Serbia on the same day. And then on the 3rd of

24 January, 1993, or the 4th, I was arrested and taken to Bratunac and

25 recruited for the brigade. That is true.

Page 1570

1 Q. So I did understand you properly, that you said that you returned

2 to Fakovici on the 6th of October, 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Actually, that's not correct. Isn't that right?

5 A. But it is correct.

6 Q. You were present as a fighter in Fakovici and you were present in

7 September, October, and November 1992?

8 A. That's not correct.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please place on the

10 ELMO document number 01320796. The list of fighters from Fakovici for

11 their personal incomes, September, October, November. Dated the 25th of

12 January, 1993. It comes from the seized financial documents of the

13 Bratunac Brigade.

14 Q. Witness, please take a look at this document. Number 11 is

15 Stanisa Stevanovic. That's you, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you were there in September and October and what you said on

18 Friday is not correct. Isn't that right?

19 A. Mrs. Vidovic, this is 1993, it's not 1992.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mrs. Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, please look at the title: "List of fighters from

23 Fakovici for personal incomes." The date is the 25th of January, 1993.

24 But, but, it pertains to September, October, and November. Isn't it

25 correct that retroactively in January 1993 you received your personal

Page 1571

1 income for the previous months of September, October, and November?

2 A. It is not correct. After the fall of Fakovici, nobody stayed

3 behind in Fakovici.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this exhibit please be

6 assigned a number.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document is being tendered and accepted

8 in evidence as Defence Exhibit D49.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, I would now like to draw your attention again to the

11 statement made in 1994, page 7 of our Bosnian Serbian version. Could you

12 please take a look at it. You have the statement?

13 A. I don't -- or is it this?

14 Q. The 1994 statement, yes. Page 7, paragraph 2. This is page

15 01905661, the last paragraph of the English version. You said then: "In

16 the period up to the 5th of October, 1992, I was in the area of Fakovici

17 where I happened to be when the Muslims attacked Serb settlements in this

18 area from the village of Tegare to Kutjesi."

19 So, Mr. Stevanovic, in your first statement that you gave in

20 relation to these events you said precisely what the document I showed you

21 a few minutes ago says, too. Isn't that right?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What you said on Friday about these events was a total fabrication

24 then, wasn't it?

25 A. No, that's not true.

Page 1572

1 Q. What is true then, Mr. Stevanovic?

2 A. It is true that after the fall of Bradjevina on the 27th we went

3 down to Fakovici because you couldn't cross the river. The boats had been

4 pulled ashore.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Stevanovic. I already know that. But

6 why would you tell an investigating magistrate or anyone else for that

7 matter at a time when you remembered these events much more clearly than

8 two or three years ago, why would you have told them that you were in fact

9 in the area? Why would they have written something like that unless you

10 had actually said it?

11 A. I have no idea what they wrote. I couldn't say something that

12 wasn't true.

13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Stevanovic. I'll move on and ask you

14 something else.

15 You were a soldier of the Bratunac Brigade, weren't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On page 11 of the B/C/S version of your July 2000 statement, if

18 necessary I will show it to you, paragraph 4, which is page 10 of the

19 English version. The statement paragraph 3. You said as follows: "On

20 the 3rd of January, 1993, I was recruited for the Bratunac Brigade of the

21 Republika Srpska army. The Bratunac Brigade had only four companies."

22 Is that true, Mr. Stevanovic?

23 A. I don't know how many exactly it had and I did so. But on the 3rd

24 of January, 1993, Momir Nikolic --

25 Q. Can you just please answer my question specifically. Is it or is

Page 1573

1 it not true that the Bratunac Brigade only had as many as four companies?

2 A. I don't know exactly how many it had. I don't know exactly,

3 whether it was four companies. I know that I was sent to the

4 4th Battalion near Kravica as far as I remember.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Stevanovic. We'll see about that now.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

7 please. I would like to have placed on the ELMO a document called: "The

8 founding of the Bratunac Brigade." This document was also seized in the

9 archives by the OTP. Can we please show --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, for today and for the future unless

11 the question of the origin of the document arises, in which case we will

12 discuss it in the absence of the witness, I would like you to refrain from

13 mentioning where you obtained this document or where whoever gave you this

14 document obtained it from. Because that sometimes could influence the

15 witness.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,

17 Your Honour. I will abide by that.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, can you please look at the following page. The page

21 number is 06586483. This is an excerpt from a document. I will quote a

22 portion of it to you now. If you could please have a look, the portion

23 that says -- have you looked at the document? Can you please have a look

24 at the next page of the B/C/S, paragraph 2, which states: "The Bratunac

25 Light Infantry Brigade was established on the 14th of November, 1992,

Page 1574

1 pursuant to orders from the command of the 2nd Corps, strictly

2 confidential number 2-67, dated the 13th of November, 1993 -- 1992," my

3 apologies. 1992. I made the mistake myself. The document says 1992.

4 Now, if you could please look at the numerical strength of the

5 brigade, I think that's paragraph 3. It states that the numerical

6 strength of the Brigade on the day is 2.288 military conscripts. And then

7 we see the units enumerated, brigade, command, reconnaissance platoon, the

8 military police platoon, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Battalions, the 1st, 2nd,

9 3rd, 4th, and 5th Battalions, a company of young soldiers, a logistics

10 company, a 120-millimetre mortars company, a tank platoon with three

11 tanks, a platoon of APCs, and a mixed artillery battery.

12 Mr. Stevanovic, you were a soldier in this brigade. Are you aware

13 of the fact that the Bratunac Brigade had these units?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Is it not correct, Mr. Stevanovic, that these battalions were in

16 fact part of the Bratunac Brigade?

17 A. I do not know.

18 Q. Is it not true that there was a battalion that was billeted in

19 Bratunac and that its zone of responsibility was between Kaolin and

20 Jezestica?

21 A. I don't know. Do you want me to answer this?

22 Q. Well, I'd like to move on to a different question for you then.

23 You said that you were a member of the 4th Battalion. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where was that battalion stationed?

Page 1575

1 A. It was near Kaolin further down towards the farm. I'm not sure

2 what the name of that place was.

3 Q. Is it the 4th Battalion we're talking about, Mr. Stevanovic?

4 A. I was only there very briefly. I'm not sure if it was the 4th,

5 but I think so. I was there only briefly. Then I was returned to

6 Radijevici and then I crossed over into Fakovici.

7 Q. However brief your stay there, you had to be aware of the exact

8 zone of responsibility that it covered, didn't you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Where exactly where you stationed? What was your area of

11 activity?

12 A. We were on a field when they brought me to the trench. I'm not

13 sure what it was. We came to the school building to rest one night and

14 then we returned again. That was Christmas time when Kravica fell. They

15 picked us up. I don't know anything. It was in Serbia. They picked up

16 whatever they could, and They brought these people to the front line. And

17 that's the truth of it.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document please be assigned

19 a number.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being tendered and accepted as

21 Defence Exhibit D50.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, in your statement dated July 2000 you said that

24 your unit was part of the offensive launched by the Republika Srpska army,

25 the one that occurred in March and April 1993. And you referred to it as

Page 1576

1 the combined Serb forces. Is that true?

2 A. Well, that was the only way I could put it. But it's as I said

3 earlier, they transferred me to Fakovici and there was a guard there and

4 they launched the offensive. That's as far as I know.

5 Q. Therefore -- therefore, there was an offensive that was in the

6 offing, in a manner of speaking, by the Serb forces?

7 A. Yes, back in 1993.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm wondering if my

9 client is receiving interpretation because I'm not receiving any

10 interpretation into the Bosnian language, although I have the right

11 channel. Very well.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I have a responsibility of checking this.

13 Mr. Stevanovic -- I want to make sure that everyone has been

14 receiving interpretation.

15 You have been able to follow what Madam Vidovic has been saying

16 because it's on your own language. So it's a question of whether you were

17 hearing her voice or not, which I take it you have.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Has anyone had any problems? I haven't and I take

22 it that Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser haven't either because otherwise

23 they would have certainly drawn up my attention. So the accused --

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's fine now, Your Honour. It's

25 fine.

Page 1577

1 Q. Therefore, you said that there had been an offensive.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

3 please, I would like to have the following document placed on the ELMO.

4 The number is 01321887 - 013218891. This is a combat order for further

5 operations issued by the command of the Bratunac Brigade dated the 9th of

6 April, 1993. This document was signed by the commander Colonel Cvjetin

7 Vuksic.

8 Q. Witness, can you please first of all look at the first page of the

9 document. At number 2 it says, and I quote, have you found that? "The

10 Bratunac Brigade, together with the Panther's Brigade and the special MUP

11 unit, in cooperation with the Special Bircanska Light Brigade, enjoying

12 strong artillery support, is attacking along the general axis: Zuti Most,

13 Potocari, Srebrenica. The aim is to crush the enemy in the following

14 areas: Bljeveca, Pale, Pecista, Likari, Srebrenica, and liberate the area

15 along the axis of attack. Down the auxiliary axis: Ratkovici,

16 Mocevici, Dimnici, supported by the BrAg of the Panthers."

17 And can you also look at page 2 of the document. If you could

18 look at number 4: "I decided that the main brigade forces, the Panthers

19 Brigade, and the special unit of the MUP in joint action with the 2nd

20 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade would attack with a strong artillery

21 support, the main direction Zuti Most, Potocari, Srebrenica, and use a

22 part of the forces to attack along the auxiliary axis: Lemesac, Cizmici,

23 Pale, Potocari, Sase, Azlica, Kvarac, Ratkovici, Mocevici, Stozersko,

24 Pribicevac, in order to crush and destroy the enemy and liberate the areas

25 along the above-mentioned axis."

Page 1578

1 My question to you, Witness, is: Are these the combined forces

2 that you spoke about?

3 A. I don't know. I only know about the unit that I was part of, the

4 unit that came to Radijevici, and I was there guy as far as Mocevici and

5 Brdo. And that's all I know about. Later I returned to organise the

6 spring harvest, but I know nothing further about that.

7 Q. Which unit was that?

8 A. To the best of my knowledge, they call it the guard from Pjenovac.

9 I'm not sure what the code name was.

10 Q. Witness, please, in relation to this document can you answer the

11 following question: Is it true that the forces that were operating in

12 this offensive also included a strong artillery support in the re-taking

13 of the entire Ratkovici area. Are you aware of that?

14 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the question.

15 Q. The forces that were part of the offensive that you confirmed, did

16 those forces include a strong artillery support?

17 A. There was some artillery support from the village of Vranesevici,

18 using two mortars as far as I know. We had returned from Mocevici, a

19 group of us, about 15 persons from Fakovici, and then we were picked up

20 again. I was left behind and the group was sent back to Kvarac. I'm not

21 sure about the date. That was above Pribicevac

22 Q. Therefore there was artillery in Vranesevici, wasn't there?

23 A. Yes, two mortars. That's the extent of my knowledge.

24 Q. Isn't it true then that this was what might have caused

25 destruction to the buildings that were in the way of those artillery

Page 1579

1 weapons?

2 A. How am I to say that? I don't know.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document please be assigned

4 a document?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document is being tendered and accepted

6 in evidence as Defence Exhibit D51. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have perhaps about

8 10 minutes left of my cross-examination, but I will request to go into

9 private session after this. Therefore, I think this might be a convenient

10 time for a break if the Chamber agrees obviously.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Madam Vidovic. We'll have the break

12 now. In any case we only had five minutes to go. We'll have the break

13 now. We will reconvene at five minutes to 11.00 please. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. You may proceed. Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please briefly

18 go into private session now? I have some photographs.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Registrar, could we go into private session,

20 please.

21 [Private session]

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 1580












12 Page 1580 redacted private session.














Page 1581













13 Page 1581 redacted private session.













Page 1582

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, registrar.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D45 is a list, yes.

21 Q. Witness, can you please look at the list and find number 557. The

22 list is of soldiers who were killed, soldiers of the Bratunac Brigade,

23 between 1992 -- rather, military post Bratunac between 1992 and 1996. If

24 you could please look at the number 557. Have you found that? 557,

25 Stojan Stevanovic, father Dragomir, born on the 28th of April, 1939, in

Page 1583

1 the village of Ratkovici. On the 27th of June, 1992, he was killed in the

2 village of Ratkovici. Therefore, this is a list of soldiers who were

3 killed. Is it still your submission, Mr. Stevanovic, that this was a

4 civilian person?

5 A. Let me tell you: At the time he could have been listed in any

6 number of ways. All the victims claimed that they were soldiers in order

7 to receive compensation. In terms of his age he could have been a

8 soldier, but he was simply an alcoholic. That's what he was.

9 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, did I hear you correctly? You said that all

10 victims of war are now listed as ex-soldiers?

11 A. All male persons.

12 Q. All male persons, but that's not correct.

13 A. But I know all of them and they're all receiving some sort of

14 compensation.

15 Q. How do you expect someone who was killed to receive compensation?

16 A. But their families continue to receive compensation. All their

17 families, all the families of victims who were killed are still receiving

18 financial compensation for their deaths.

19 Q. Are you sure about that?

20 A. That's as far as I know.

21 Q. As far as you know, but based on what are you saying this?

22 A. Well, I knew this man, I talked to him, and he told me that he was

23 receiving compensation. His wife is receiving compensation on his behalf,

24 for example.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Stevanovic.

Page 1584

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, on Friday you looked at and identified a number of

4 buildings and features in various photographs. Is that not correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In none of those cases did you actually witness how destruction

7 occurred to any of those buildings, did you?

8 A. No. I didn't witness it for myself.

9 Q. How many damaged buildings did you actually see in Fakovici?

10 A. I don't know. I never counted them. I wasn't interested.

11 Q. What would your assessment be?

12 A. How should I know? I don't know how many houses there were. Even

13 if I counted them one by one, perhaps I couldn't reach a definite figure,

14 although I had lived in Fakovici for those eight or ten years.

15 Q. How many buildings were there in Fakovici? Could you give us a

16 total, an assessment?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Very well.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

20 please. Could we please place an exhibit on the ELMO. It is a list of

21 households, flats, and farms across the municipalities and settled areas

22 according to the 1991 census. This is also in relation to Bratunac.

23 Q. Witness, can you please look at the data as given in relation to

24 Fakovici. Is it not true. Or do you know if it's true that Fakovici had

25 153 inhabitants, 54 households, 57 flats, and 33 farms?

Page 1585












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1586

1 A. I don't know. I don't know.

2 Q. Let me rephrase the question. You said you knew Fakovici well.

3 You did confirm that, didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Well, then, you must know that until the beginning of war there

6 were 33 Muslims living in Fakovici. Is that correct?

7 A. In Fakovici?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Not in Fakovici, but there are the villages of Abdulici and

10 Zanjevo.

11 Q. I'm talking about Fakovici. Is it your submission that there were

12 no Muslims living there and that they did not own houses in the village?

13 A. Not as far as I know. Even as we speak there were no Muslims

14 houses there. There are some in Abdulici.

15 Q. Well, there are none as we speak which is natural. But, please,

16 just answer yes or no. Is it your submission that back then there were no

17 Muslims living in Fakovici? Abdulici is a different thing.

18 A. Yes, I am saying there were none.

19 Q. Very well. Are you saying that you don't know that their houses

20 were torched in April and May 1992, in Fakovici?

21 A. How could they have been torched if there were none to begin

22 with?

23 Q. So you claim they never were there. Is that right?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. All right.

Page 1587

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

2 statistics report as a Defence exhibit, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And this document is being tendered and

4 admitted in evidence marked as Defence Exhibit D52.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, on the 11th of July, 1995, you were in Potocari

7 when, or rather where the greatest massacre of the Srebrenica tragedy took

8 place. You separated the men from their families, didn't you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What are you trying to say, that you were not there?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You weren't there at all?

13 A. I was at Pribicevac but I was not at Potocari.

14 Q. The families of Huremovic and Zenunovic, do they mean anything to

15 you?

16 A. Of course they do. Not Zenunovic, Huremovic. I don't know about

17 Zenunovic.

18 Q. Are you trying to say that you did not have any contact on that

19 day with that family?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What does this "yes" mean?

22 A. Yes, I did not have any contacts.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the relevance? Yes, let's proceed.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is very relevant.

Page 1588

1 It has to do with the credibility of this witness. And during the

2 proceedings you will see.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] However, the witness claims that he

5 was not there and you will see why.

6 Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

7 further questions.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

9 Is there re-examination, Mr. Di Fazio?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, if Your Honours please.

11 Can the witness be shown the list of killed fighters, D45.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

13 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, I think I can make my point relatively quickly.

14 If you look at the list, for example, in number 12 you will see that the

15 man there described Vojislav -- sorry, my apologies. Under 13, Drago --

16 Milovan Dokic was born in 1935. Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you know that man?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. Go to 115, Bogoljub Eric. Number 115, Bogoljub Eric.

21 Do you see that name?

22 A. 115?

23 Q. Yes. 115, 1-1-5. Mr. Bogoljub Eric. Do you see that?

24 A. I can see that.

25 Q. It says that he --

Page 1589

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It says that he was born in 1914. Did you ever see any fighters

3 in 1992 or 1993 in the Army of the VRS at about that age, whatever that

4 was in 1914 -- 1992?

5 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I think my learned friend is trying to

6 make an argument through the witness. The witness doesn't know these

7 people --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But he's asking a very simple question.

9 MR. JONES: We've also heard --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Please don't interrupt when the witness is about to

11 give an answer to an important question.


13 Q. So did you ever see any fighters who appeared to you to be the

14 sort of men who might have been born a second decade of last century,

15 1914. Did you ever see any men of that age? Now, remember, 1992 is the

16 period of time I'm asking you about.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever see any men fighting on behalf of Serb forces of any

19 description whatsoever in 1992 or in 1993 who appeared to you to have been

20 born in the 1920s, men of that sort of age?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Who were either over 60 or approaching 60, in other

22 words -- or 70. Sorry. Over 60 and approaching 70 or even over 70.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know, Your Honour, all the

24 people who were forced to go into the war had to fight. And those who

25 were over 60, or rather just below the age of 60 -- or rather, those who

Page 1590

1 were up to the age of 60 had what was called work obligation. And they

2 didn't have to go to the front line. But those who were over 60 had to go

3 to the front -- did not have to go anywhere. However, those up to the age

4 of 55 had to go to the front line. Regardless of whether they were sick

5 or not, they made them go there. Because the front line was always manned

6 by old men, up to 55.


8 Q. Thank you. And did you see Stojan -- your cousin, the man who was

9 killed in Bradjevina, at any time in 1992 and 1993, fighting on behalf of

10 Serb forces of any description whatsoever?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you. You were asked questioned in cross-examination

13 regarding a statement that you had given in 1994. Can you tell the Trial

14 Chamber -- or you already have told the Trial Chamber that the statement

15 was taken at your place, at your home. Can you remember who came to your

16 home and how the statement was recorded?

17 A. As far as I can remember, some man called Sinisa came and asked me

18 to sign a piece of paper. And he said that he'd type it out later. I

19 made a statement in pencil and he made inscriptions. So I was never asked

20 to come to Zvornik or Bratunac to sign the typewritten paper.

21 Q. How -- on how many occasions did you speak to him and give him

22 information?

23 A. Several times. He came to see me several times.

24 Q. Always about the statement?

25 A. Not only my statement. He asked whether there was anybody else

Page 1591

1 who had been up there who could have made this kind of statement sort of.

2 Q. Okay. So on the several occasions that he came back and spoke to

3 you, is it the case that he spoke to you about the content, what you'd

4 said, of your statement and/or other people who might also help him by

5 giving a statement?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What was the statement taken for, what purpose, what proceedings?

8 Do you know? And if you don't know, say so.

9 A. Well, I don't know.

10 Q. Did you ever sign it in company with a judge or a clerk?

11 A. No.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, would Your Honours just bear with me on a

13 quick matter. Thank you.

14 Can the witness now be shown the document listing the fighters

15 from Fakovici. I'm sorry, if Your Honours please, I don't have the -- I'm

16 not precisely sure which exhibit number it is. It will be either --


18 MR. DI FAZIO: D49, thank you. May I just look at it before it's

19 handed to the witness. I just want to check it out and make sure we're

20 talking about the same document. Yes, thank you very much. Thank you.

21 Q. Now, you've told us about in your testimony of when it was that

22 you actually held a position in the -- in the armed forces -- the Serb

23 armed forces and you said it was from January of 1993 onwards. While you

24 were actually holding that position did you receive any salary, that is

25 from January 1993 onwards, any salary or any money, any recompense for

Page 1592

1 your activities as a soldier? Did they pay you from time to time?

2 Q. Prior to that, prior to January of 1993, had you ever received

3 any salary or recompense from institutions of the VRS, pay salary, pay

4 office or somehow get any payment of salary from the VRS before January of

5 1993?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Look at the names that -- of the people in that document. Do you

8 know any of those people, apart from number 11 which is your name? Do you

9 know them? Go through them one by one.

10 A. I know Milanovic, Slobodan, from the village of Tegare. Ilic,

11 Milan, from Tegare, too.

12 Q. Do you know if there are any other men mentioned in that document,

13 including ones where there's been a line been drawn through them?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the working

15 platoon from Fakovici, the one that I was on in 1993. When I returned

16 from Mocevici, we were supposed to organise the spring planting and

17 sowing. So this is work obligation. All of them were old men basically,

18 and I was supposed to organise this agricultural activity in the spring,

19 but Fakovici otherwise had more people than this.


21 Q. All right. How old were they? Can you be a bit more exact, a bit

22 more precise? Let's start with number 1, Mr. Slobodan Milanovic. Have

23 you got any idea about how old he might have been in 1992?

24 A. Perhaps 50-something, say 55.

25 Q. And what about the others? Are there any men there that you

Page 1593

1 know --

2 A. Ilic, Milan.

3 Q. Yes. About how old was he?

4 A. Ilic, Milan, is an elderly man. He may even be close to 70 now.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So he was not yet 60 in 1992, no?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something around that.


8 Q. Continue down the list. Are there any men there that you see, are

9 there any men there that you see in that list who in 1992, back then, back

10 in the war, were clearly men in their 60s or 70s?

11 A. Ilic, Pero, he was a youngish man as far as I know him.

12 Q. No. I'm not asking about --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need to go through the entire exercise,

14 Mr. Di Fazio? It's up to you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: My question was designed to avoid precisely that,

16 if Your Honours please. I'll make it clear to the witness so that he

17 understands.

18 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, what I'm asking you about is this: Just go

19 through the list and tell us if you know of any men who back in 1992 were

20 clearly, in your opinion anyway, clearly in their 60s or 70s. In other

21 words, old men.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Elderly men.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Elderly men. I'm sorry, if Your Honours please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly how old these

25 men were. I know that this Pero Ilic was a youngish man, whereas these

Page 1594

1 other people were sort of elderly people. Some have even died in the

2 meantime. They're no longer with us.


4 Q. All right. Did you ever see action, and by that I mean military

5 action, in company with any of the men listed here, apart from the younger

6 man, Ilic, Pero? Did you ever --

7 A. No. No. Not with a single one of them, Pero included.

8 Q. Now, you said that you had a work obligation in 1993 with these

9 people. What was that work obligation?

10 A. The sowing and planting of crops in the month of April.

11 Q. Why would you in particular have been involved in that particular

12 sowing of crops in April of that year? Why weren't you fighting?

13 A. It's easier to sleep at home than in a trench, in the soil. And

14 to risk being killed. Everybody always made an effort to try to get away.

15 Q. I can well understand -- sorry. I can understand that, but how

16 did you engineer it? How did you work things out so that you weren't

17 sleeping in a trench and being shot at or fighting and instead were back

18 in your village conducting the sowing and reaping?

19 A. Even now I'm one of the more prominent farmers there and food

20 producers in the area, so they let me go back to organise the spring

21 sowing.

22 Q. All right. Thank you. And lastly, you were asked questions by

23 Defence counsel regarding --

24 JUDGE ESER: Just before you leave this document, D49, I would

25 like to ask either the Prosecution or the Defence with regard to the

Page 1595

1 translation. Now, is the English translation list of salaries of the

2 fighters from Fakovici completely identical with the Bosnian Serbian

3 original? Because at least the sequence of the words is different in the

4 Bosnian than in the English version.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: It may be, if Your Honours -- what I can do is ask

6 the witness to read it out into the transcript and get an official

7 interpretation. That might solve the problem.

8 Q. Just read out the title slowly into --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.

10 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could you please bear

12 in mind the following: That the translation service has a lot of work to

13 do, and therefore when lists are being translated usually they just

14 translate the heading and then they say a list of 19 names follows. So

15 this is the practice followed by the translation service here. They do

16 not type out the actual list of names.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you missed completely what -- the point that

18 Judge Eser wanted to make.

19 What we are interested in knowing is whether when we say -- when

20 we have in the English text: "List of salaries for fighters from

21 Fakovici," whether this is a correct translation of what we have in the

22 original text which is "Spisak Boraca Fakovici."

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely correct translation.

24 Absolutely correct.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I ask you, Mr. Stevanovic, to read the title

Page 1596

1 of that document in your own language, and that's everything that there is

2 from the first word "Spisak" up to when you reach September. Don't read

3 September, October, November. Could you read it out aloud, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] List of fighters from Fakovici in

5 terms of salaries for September, October, November 1993 [as interpreted].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, sir.

7 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio, do you have any further questions?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, not on this particular document.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I meant -- you're still in re-examination;

10 that was my question.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I've just about wrapped it up.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, it's up to you.


14 Q. You were asked about your encounter with a man called Mehmed

15 Tiro --


17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one intervention, please.

18 September, October, November. It does not say "1993." It says list of

19 fighters from Fakovici. But this is what it says in the transcript so...

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right. So with reference to page 50,

21 line 5, where it says in terms of salaries from September, October,

22 November 1993, the witness never mentioned 1993. And certainly the

23 document does not purport to cover those three months for that particular

24 year but for the previous year. Thank you.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Within the heading it

Page 1597

1 also says the document was drafted on the 25th of February, 1993.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that obviously means that September,

3 October, and November that are mentioned there are September, October, and

4 November of the previous year and not of 1993. So let's proceed.

5 Your question, Mr. Di Fazio, was: "You were asked" or you had

6 just started. "You were asked about your encounter with a man called

7 Mehmed Tiro." And you were about to continue when we interrupted you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. Thank you, if Your Honours please.

9 Q. All right. So you were asked about him and some questioning that

10 he underwent. My question is very simple: Were you questioning him or

11 asking him questions in any official capacity when you saw him in 1993, in

12 an official capacity?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Were you in company with another soldier who was asking him some

15 sort of questions in an official capacity?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was the other soldier and what was he asking?

18 A. He was from the police station in Fakovici. There was this police

19 station there, so he was from there.

20 Q. So what was your purpose in questioning Mehmed?

21 A. He questioned him. I was present and I asked him only certain

22 matters.

23 Q. Okay. What did you want to find out about from Mr. Mehmed? What

24 was your purpose in asking him some questions?

25 A. Well, I asked him whether he took part in the attack on my village

Page 1598

1 because I did not see him during the attack. So that's why I asked him

2 whether he took part in the attack.

3 Q. Okay. And why did you want to ask him those questions?

4 A. Well, just like that, out of curiosity, nothing else.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

8 Judge Brydensholt.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: This questioning of Mehmed Tiro, where did it

11 take place? Do you remember that?

12 A. Well, you know how it was. He was wounded. It was at the clinic.

13 There was nothing much happening. They were just talking. It was at

14 Skelani that he was eventually interrogated and everything he said was

15 written down. But at first nothing was written down. It was just a talk

16 that we had. He was being administered first aid at the clinic in

17 Fakovici and then he was transferred to Skelani. That's as far as I know.

18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: What was the reason why you went to this

19 clinic? Was it because you knew that he was there and you would like to

20 get some information from him or why did you go to the clinic?

21 A. Well, we were there in Fakovici when he was brought in. We were

22 there. It's a small village, you know. It's not a big town, so that it's

23 not like we actually went anywhere. It was right in the middle of the

24 village. You have the small clinic there, you have the school building.

25 It's all a very small village.

Page 1599

1 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: But was it only you? You mentioned that you

2 were together with a soldier. Was it only you and the soldier who asked

3 him questions or did many more people or more people participate in this

4 questioning, this visit to the clinic?

5 A. There were more people and there was the nurse who dressed his

6 wounds.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Brydensholt.

8 Judge Eser? No.

9 Mr. Stevanovic, I am still a little bit perplexed in relation to

10 the statement that you were shown earlier on which refers to the date of

11 the 20th of December 1994. You recall that I had asked you

12 specifically --

13 Madam Usher, could you please show him again this and put it on

14 the ELMO page by page so that it can be followed.

15 I want you -- or I would like you, sir, to go through that

16 statement page by page, look at the bottom of each page, except the last

17 one where your signature appears further up. I want you to confirm or I

18 would like you to confirm to us that that is indeed your signature on each

19 page.

20 A. Yes, the first one. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: On the last page there are two more signatures. On

22 the left there is a signature and in a word "Zapisnicar," "Zapisnicar."

23 Do you recognise that signature?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you recognise the signature of the Judge on

Page 1600

1 the right?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you recall someone signing the same document on

4 which you had affixed our own signature?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat the name of the person who came to

7 interview you at your home?

8 A. As far as I know the name was Sinisa.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And earlier on you seemed to have suggested that he

10 asked you to sign in blank a number of pages which he would then fill in.

11 Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember how many pages you signed?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And you confirmed that when you signed these pages

16 there was absolutely nothing else written on them or typed on them?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember being asked to sign one page not at

19 the bottom but somewhere up on the page towards the middle of the page?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You had no problem in signing these pages blank?

22 A. Well, I didn't know there would be a trial one day. I didn't know

23 why they wanted me to sign. If I had known why they wanted me to sign, I

24 certainly wouldn't have signed. He gave me a pen and a paper and he said

25 that he would transfer it from a notebook that he was using and that he

Page 1601

1 would type it up on these blank sheets of paper. I never saw my own

2 statement.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you know this man Sinisa from before?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Did he show you any identification before he started

6 interviewing you?

7 A. No. No identification whatsoever.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So you gave sort of a statement or you answered

9 questions to a person who you did not know from before and who did not

10 even identify himself to you?

11 A. He told me that he was from Zvornik, an investigator. That was

12 all he said, nothing else.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And you did not ask him to give you proof of that?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, I am going to refer you to the last page of

16 that statement precisely on the part that shows on the monitor at the

17 moment which is -- which reads as follows: "That is all I have to say.

18 The record has been read out aloud to me and it includes everything I have

19 stated. I do not wish to read it. I acknowledge it as my own and hereby

20 affix my signature."

21 You were asked a question or more than one question on this part

22 of the statement. Do you recall giving an answer? You were asked about

23 this by Madam Vidovic.

24 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the question, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you recall -- do you remember that earlier on

Page 1602

1 this morning Madam Vidovic asked you about this last paragraph of the

2 statement and asked you precisely whether this was true or not?

3 A. I remember that she did ask me that, yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you remember particularly yourself referring

5 to the part of that statement which says: "I do not wish to read it," and

6 you said, "How could anyone say that?" Do you remember saying so?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you perhaps explain to me how you were so

9 surprised that anyone would make that statement, in other words: "I do

10 not wish to read it," and yet be very complacent and very ready to sign

11 out -- or put his signature on a blank document? How could you reconcile

12 the two?

13 A. I don't know how those two can be reconciled, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I don't have any further questions.

15 Basically that means that your testimony comes to an end here. You will

16 be escorted by Madam Usher who will accompany you. And then you will

17 receive all the assistance you require to enable you to return home.

18 Before you leave, however, I have a further question. I want to

19 put my mind at rest on something. During this weekend, did you have an

20 opportunity to discuss your testimony or the matters on which you have

21 been testifying with anyone?

22 A. With the exception of those who came to my room and took me to

23 dinner, no. But they were not testifying. We were only talking about

24 life in Holland and life over in Bosnia, that sort of thing.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm referring to matters related to your testimony.

Page 1603

1 Did you discuss matters on which you have been testifying with any person

2 since last Friday when you left this courtroom?

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

5 So on behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and on behalf of

6 myself of course and the Tribunal I should like to thank you for coming

7 over to give testimony. You should receive all the assistance you require

8 to help you to facilitate your journey back home. And the final message

9 is we all wish you a safe journey.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours, please. No problem with what Your

11 Honours said.


13 MR. DI FAZIO: It's just one issue relating to this statement.

14 Has it been marked for identification or not? If it hasn't, if Your

15 Honours please, I respectfully suggest it should be.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 MR. DI FAZIO: You don't know how and when the issues relating to

18 its creation might arise again, and I prefer it if it could be given -- if

19 Your Honours prefer to have it fully tendered, I don't mind, but at the

20 very least marked for identification.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: The Serbian -- the statement that Your Honours just

23 asked him about.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think what we need to do is we mark the

25 original -- where is it? Can I have it back, please? Yeah, it's here.

Page 1604

1 We can mark this one. Do you have a copy of it that you can make

2 available?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes, I do. I do have a copy. Do you want --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because if it's going to be marked we have to decide

5 whether it's going to be a Prosecution Exhibit in the first place or

6 whether it's going to be a Court/Trial Chamber exhibit.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm happy for it to be marked as a Prosecution

8 Exhibit, if Your Honours please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let this be admitted in evidence and we'll

10 give it the sequence number, that will be P4-0 --

11 THE REGISTRAR: 406, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 406. So that will be P406. And I suppose you have

13 no problems because you have asked questions on it just the same?

14 All right. Let me get the English translation. In the meantime,

15 is there anything you wish to state in relation to the next witness before

16 he is admitted?

17 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I will give the floor to Ms. Joanne

18 Richardson who joined the team.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no -- there are no protective measures in

20 place?

21 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. Good morning. No, there are no

22 protective measures for this witness. I believe we've already -- there

23 will be one exhibit that I will be using, which is a map. And I also

24 turned over some of my notes to the Defence counsel about an hour ago,

25 following proofing of this witness.

Page 1605

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

2 What's the problem?

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I ask -- one moment. Mr. Wubben and Madam

5 Vidovic, could you come here -- come near us a little bit.

6 [Trial Chamber and Prosecution and Defence Counsel confer]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We are going to have a very short break which

8 is necessary for organisation purposes, and we will reconvene as quickly

9 as possible.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we bring in the witness, we've wasted

13 three-quarters of an hour plus because of this misunderstanding that seems

14 to have happened. I understand that mistakes do happen and

15 misunderstandings do happen. I do not intend to prolong it further or to

16 make a mountain out of it. So I'm just saying that we hope that we will

17 not have a repetition of this.

18 On the other hand, before we start with this witness, I would like

19 to know how much time you require, Madam Vidovic, or Mr. Jones, sorry.

20 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, obviously, depending on the length of the

21 examination-in-chief, I imagine an hour and a half to two hours maximum.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Two hours.

23 And your direct will last how long?

24 MS. RICHARDSON: About approximately two and a half hours.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can still make it, in other words.

Page 1606

1 But as we go along since this, what happened, is through no fault

2 of your own, as you go along if you think you will require more than an

3 hour and a half, please draw my attention because I want to make sure that

4 once this has happened that you will certainly have your two hours or one

5 and a half hours as you may need, as you may require.

6 MR. JONES: That's very kind of Your Honour. I'm much obliged,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's not lose more time and bring in the

9 witness.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, sir.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are Milenko Stevanovic, aren't you?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure first and foremost that what I

17 am saying in English is being translated to you in your own language and

18 that you can hear the interpreters.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So I welcome you to this Tribunal, and I welcome you

21 on behalf of Judge Brydensholt, who comes from Denmark, Judge Eser, who

22 comes from Germany, and of course on my own behalf, my name is Agius, I

23 come from Malta, from the island of Malta. I welcome you. You are about

24 to start giving evidence in this trial. Our Rules require that before you

25 do so you enter -- you make a solemn declaration, something similar and

Page 1607

1 equivalent to an oath. The solemn declaration states that in the course

2 of your testimony that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

3 nothing but the truth. The text of the solemn declaration is contained on

4 a piece of paper Madam Usher is going to hand to you. I would like to ask

5 you to read that out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with

6 us that you will be testifying the truth.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Stevanovic. Please do take a

10 chair. And let me explain to you what's going to happen. You are first

11 going to be asked a series of questions by Ms. Richardson, who I suppose

12 you have already met. She will then be followed by Mr. Jones who is

13 appearing for Naser Oric. In accordance with the oath -- with the solemn

14 declaration that you have just entered, may I remind you that your

15 obligation to this Tribunal is to answer all questions truthfully and as

16 fully as possible, irrespective of who is putting the question to you. In

17 other words, you do not have the right to discriminate in favour of the

18 Prosecution or against the Defence. Your duty, your responsibility, your

19 obligation is to answer all questions, irrespective of where they are

20 coming from, and to answer them truthfully and fully. Did I make myself

21 clear to you?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

24 Madam Richardson, could I invite you to start with your direct.

25 And with regard to the basic information, you can lead the witness

Page 1608

1 straight away.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Ms. Richardson:

6 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, can you please confirm for us that you were born

7 on January 18th, 1965, that you are unmarried, you are of Serb ethnicity,

8 and you are presently a construction worker residing in Skelani, but prior

9 to this you were a farmer and lived in the hamlet of Bradjevina, village

10 of Ratkovici, in the municipality of Srebrenica. Can you confirm this

11 information by a verbal yes.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in 1992 you resided in Bradjevina with your mother, father,

14 and brothers?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Bradjevina is a purely Serb hamlet. There are approximately 12

17 households, and I'm referring specifically to the year of to 1992, and in

18 1992 prior to your leaving the hamlet, there were approximately 30 to 50

19 individuals living in the hamlet.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The individuals who resided in Bradjevina in 1992, this was a --

22 basically an agricultural community, most of the people were farmers?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And within the hamlet of Bradjevina in 1992, there was a cemetery,

25 there was no school, there was no police station, and there were no

Page 1609

1 military facilities?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. At this time I would like to show you --

4 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could ask the usher for her assistance in

5 handing out a map to Your Honours as well as to the Defence and to place

6 the map on the ELMO for the witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: I would ask that this map be given a number for

9 identification.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So could you give me the progressive number, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be Exhibit number P407.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document, this map, is being tendered and

13 admitted into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit P407.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, could you please take a look at the map that's on

16 the ELMO and could you locate the hamlet of Bradjevina and please draw a

17 circle around it. I will -- you can draw that with the marker that I'm

18 handing out to the usher. Please circle Bradjevina.

19 A. [Witness complies].

20 Q. And also, could you locate the surrounding villages --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because we need to see it. Okay. Could

22 you just go over it -- once you've found it, could you go over it with the

23 highlighter, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Could the technicians zoom in so we can follow. I

Page 1610

1 can see it on my own map, but the public may --


3 Q. Could you circle that, Bradjevina.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Bradjevina.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see clearly. I see it on

6 the screen but not over here.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you help the witness a little bit.

8 We're talking of --

9 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you find it? Yeah, okay. Could you put your

11 initials next to that.

12 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


15 Q. Could you tell us -- and just so we're clear, Bradjevina is a

16 purely Serb hamlet. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you tell us what the ethnic make-up of the surrounding

19 villages of Bradjevina, what is the ethnic make-up, and could you circle

20 those villages and tell us at the same time whether these are Serb or

21 Muslim villages or whether these villages are mixed. If you look at the

22 map.

23 A. The Ratkovici local commune only has Serb villages and all the

24 population there was Serb. Bradjevina is part of that local commune.

25 Q. Could you circle Ratkovici on the map, please.

Page 1611

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Just in the interests of time, if Your Honours

2 allow me, I would like to call out some of the villages and the witness

3 can tell us whether they were Serb or Muslim villages.

4 Q. Please locate the village Kaludra on the map and tell us whether

5 this was a Serb village or a Muslim village. And please circle that

6 village. Was this a Serb village?

7 A. [Witness complies]. Yes.

8 Q. Next could you find the village Vranesevici, circle it, and tell

9 us whether this was a Serb or a Muslim village.

10 A. That's also a Serb village, yes.

11 Q. And also could you locate the village Magudovici and draw a circle

12 around it and tell us whether this was a Serb or a Muslim village.

13 A. [Witness complies].

14 Q. Also could you locate the village Ducici and tell us -- circle it

15 and tell us whether it was a Serb or a Muslim village.

16 A. A Serb village.

17 Q. Next the village of Durici. Could you circle that and tell us

18 whether it's a Serb or a Muslim village.

19 A. The village of Ducici, you mean?

20 Q. Yes, please. It's a Serb village?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. Ducici is already marked from before.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, actually I wanted the witness to locate

23 Dvoriste.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Dvoriste?

25 MS. RICHARDSON: I may not be pronouncing it 100 per cent

Page 1612

1 accurate.

2 Q. But could you find that village, if you understand the village

3 that I'm referring to, and tell us whether it's a Serb village or a Muslim

4 village.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Dvoriste --

6 MS. RICHARDSON: And finally --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And is it the village that you meant him to indicate

8 to us or not? Dvoriste, D-v-o-r-i-s-t-e?

9 MS. RICHARDSON: That is correct, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And while we are at it, earlier on you asked the

11 witness to show us the village of Magdovici. He showed one which on the

12 map is spelled Magudovici. Is it the same one you meant or is it a

13 different one?

14 MS. RICHARDSON: It is the same one, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's just to make sure for the record. I mean, I

16 know it's a question of pronunciation more than anything else.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. And finally could you locate the village of Oparci and circle it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. And Judge Eser is pointing out to me

20 whether Dvoriste was an exclusively Serbian village or whether it was a

21 mixed or a Muslim village.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, purely Serb.



25 Q. And if you could look at the map and locate the village of Oparci

Page 1613

1 and tell us -- please circle that village and tell us whether it was a

2 purely Serb village or a Muslim village.

3 A. [Witness complies].

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honours, at this time --

6 Q. Could you tell us: Is this a Serb village?

7 A. Yes, Serb.

8 Q. And on this map could you show us where the nearest -- the closest

9 Muslim village is located.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we give him another highlighter with a

11 different colour, please?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. I was just about to do that.

13 I will hand up to the usher a highlighter, a blue highlighter. I would

14 ask the witness to locate that village.

15 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].


17 Q. You have just circled a village called Mocevici. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is this a Serb or a Muslim village?

20 A. Muslim.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would ask that P407,

23 Prosecution's exhibit, be tendered into evidence.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 1614

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It is being admitted, as I said earlier, as

2 Exhibit P407, Ms. Richardson.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

4 Q. Just --

5 MS. RICHARDSON: I would ask the usher's indulgence one more time

6 just to show the witness the map. He will not be writing anything but to

7 just show him the map itself. I would like to ask one last question

8 before --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One question, Ms. Richardson: Do you intend this

10 map to be used only by this witness?

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.


14 Q. Now, I would ask you, Mr. Stevanovic, to take a look at the map

15 and tell me if it is correct that the Serb villages that you have circled

16 are essentially located in the lower region of -- the lower-lying areas of

17 the region.

18 A. The village of Ducici is more or less on the same altitude where

19 Mocevici and the other Muslim villages are. The others are lower down, so

20 the answer is yes.

21 Q. And the Muslim villages, are they located at a higher level, in

22 terms of the area and the region?

23 A. Yes. The village of Mocevici, Poznanovici, Osneca [phoen]. All

24 of the other villages in the area, yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Stevanovic, I would like to turn your attention to

Page 1615

1 the year 1992 and ask if -- what type of relationship you had with your

2 Muslim neighbours prior to 1992. Did you have a good relationship with

3 them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did there come a time that this relationship changed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall when that was?

8 A. In the month of May 1992.

9 Q. And what specifically happened in the month of May to change your

10 relationship with your Muslim neighbours?

11 A. In the neighbouring village of Dvoriste, a man was bringing cattle

12 feed to his house and he was killed there.

13 Q. And the man who was killed was Muslim -- was Serb, excuse me?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you know who killed him?

16 A. His brother said that it was people from the Mocevici and

17 Poznanovici, from one of those two villages, but he said they were from

18 Mocevici.

19 Q. And these were Muslim villages?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did anything else happen in the month of May that contributed to

22 the change of the relationship?

23 A. Yes. In Srebrenica on the 8th of May, Goran Zekic, a member of

24 parliament, got killed.

25 Q. And do you know how and by whom?

Page 1616

1 A. He was ambushed in Potocari as he was going from Srebrenica to

2 Bratunac.

3 Q. And do you know who ambushed him?

4 A. People said that -- said at that time that it was some kind of

5 Muslim extremists, whatever. Muslims.

6 Q. And did anything else, other than the killing of these two

7 individuals, that changed your relationship with your Muslim neighbours?

8 A. Yes. In Zeleni Jadar something happened there, too. There was an

9 ambush and an entire family got killed.

10 Q. Did there also come a time that there was no electricity in your

11 village?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you know why this was?

14 A. The transmission line that brought electricity to us went from

15 Sase, through Skenderovici,, Mocevici, and went down to our villages. And

16 the transmission lines were cut somewhere on their territory, in their

17 villages.

18 Q. When you say "their," are you talking about the Muslim villages?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, I would like to bring your attention to May of 1992. Did

21 anything in particular happen in your -- in any of the neighbouring

22 villages?

23 A. Towards the end of May, the village of Oparci was torched.

24 Q. And could you tell us what you know of -- when you say "torched,"

25 what do you mean? By whom?

Page 1617

1 A. I mean it was destroyed.

2 Q. And who destroyed the village?

3 A. Muslims.

4 Q. Now, what can you tell us about the destruction of this village?

5 Were you -- is this something that you observed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what can you tell us about the destruction of the village?

8 A. The man got killed -- Slavko Petrovic got killed on the outskirts

9 of the village. And his wife, Mrs. Leposila [phoen] Petrovic, was with

10 him. And she came to our village and cried and said what happened, that

11 her husband was killed, and that the village was burned down. We tried to

12 get closer to the village, and we tried to get into the village in order

13 to get the dead bodies out, but it was impossible to do so because the

14 Muslims had already taken the entire village. And there were just ashes

15 everywhere.

16 Q. Now, when you say "the Muslims," are you talking -- if you could

17 tell us specifically which Muslims are you referring to. Were they

18 civilian Muslims or were they soldiers?

19 A. Soldiers.

20 Q. Now, I'd like to bring your attention to June of 1992. Did

21 anything in particular happen in any of your neighbouring villages?

22 A. On the 21st of June, they attacked the local commune of Ratkovici.

23 It was again the Muslims who attacked.

24 Q. When you say "Muslims," were they civilians or soldiers?

25 A. Soldiers did it for the most part, but civilians also participated

Page 1618

1 in all of this.

2 Q. And is this information that you observed or were you told this by

3 someone?

4 A. I watched the villages burning. I watched them from my village.

5 Q. And were you able to see soldiers and civilians, or this was

6 something you learned from other people who were present during the

7 attack?

8 A. I saw civilians and soldiers taking away the cattle of these

9 people, taking them out of the sheds and wherever they were.

10 Q. And where were you when you observed them taking the livestock

11 away?

12 A. I was in my village around my house.

13 Q. And from where you were, you had -- you were able to see this

14 occurring?

15 A. Yes. It's about three or 400 metres to the other side of the

16 river as the crow flies.

17 Q. And could you describe for us what the soldiers were wearing.

18 They were in uniform?

19 A. I could not tell what kind of uniforms they were, but they had all

20 kinds of uniforms, green, black, camouflage, multi-coloured ones, all

21 sorts of uniforms.

22 Q. And other than the livestock, did you see them carrying anything

23 else? When I say "them," the soldiers or the civilians.

24 A. From that distance I could not see these villages. I only saw

25 flames and ashes from that distance. But where the sheds were in the

Page 1619

1 meadows, where people keep their cattle, these where I saw this, towards

2 Poznanovici and partly towards Mocevici.

3 Q. You said you saw the houses burning. Do you know the extent of

4 damage to the houses that were burned in Ratkovici in June of 1992?

5 A. In the village of Ratkovici I could not see the village as a

6 village, but I could see the hamlet of Gornji Ratkovici and Polimci and

7 part of Dvoriste.

8 Q. Did you later go to Ratkovici following the attack?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. I would like to direct your attention to your own village,

11 Bradjevina, and ask you to tell us who resided in the village in June of

12 1992.

13 A. You mean -- you mean the entire population of the village or what?

14 Q. Yes. Specifically -- I'll clarify that question. In June of 1992

15 did the 30 to 40 people that we -- that you confirmed earlier who had

16 resided there in 1992, were they still there or were those numbers

17 reduced?

18 A. It was a smaller number.

19 Q. How many?

20 A. There were about 15 of us, something like that.

21 Q. Were they men or women?

22 A. Yes. Three women and the rest were men.

23 Q. What happened to the other people in the village, the other women,

24 and I imagine there were children as well, where did they go?

25 A. After the attack against Ratkovici, we did not expect anything but

Page 1620

1 a further attack on Bradjevina and Mjenice [phoen]. So we took all the

2 people who were infirm out of the village.

3 Q. Did there come a point that Bradjevina established a village

4 guard?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when was this?

7 A. May. When that man Milisav Milanovic who got killed got killed.

8 Q. How many people were part of this village guard?

9 A. There were 12 of us.

10 Q. What were their ages?

11 A. Mostly young people between the ages of 18 and 45, 50, something

12 like that.

13 Q. Did you -- did the village guards have uniforms?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did the village guard have any weapons?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell us what type of weapons and how many.

18 A. We had two weapons only, an M-48 and a Russian manufactured

19 Smajser.

20 Q. And where did this weapons come from; do you know?

21 A. These weapons were bought for money.

22 Q. From whom and by whom?

23 A. My brother went to Fakovici and I don't know who he bought it

24 from.

25 Q. And which weapon did he buy?

Page 1621

1 A. A Russian Smajser or an automatic rifle.

2 Q. And the other weapon, do you know how that was purchased?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Now, the two weapons that you described, were these the weapons

5 that the village guard would use during 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And maybe you can tell us a little bit about the village guard.

8 What type of -- could you describe for us their duties.

9 A. The duty of this guard was that we should be vigilant in order to

10 inform people in a timely fashion about any possible attacks.

11 Q. When you say "inform people," how would you go about doing that if

12 there was an attack? What did you discuss among yourselves?

13 A. This is what we had worked out. If anything should happen, three

14 bullets should be fired.

15 Q. And where did you patrol? Where did the village guard patrol?

16 A. Above the village. We had three shelters where we stood guard.

17 Q. And at any given time, how many people would stand guard? And

18 could you tell us what time of day this would take place?

19 A. During the day, we were not on guard duty. We were engaged in

20 agriculture. We stood guard only during the night.

21 Q. And were any of the men in the village guard a part of the VRS

22 military or the Serb forces?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And in June of 1992, were any of the men in the village guard

25 mobilised by Serb -- by the Serb military?

Page 1622

1 A. Until the attack took place, no. I mean before the 28th of June;

2 that's what I meant.

3 Q. Thank you. And did the village guard receive any assistance from

4 the Serb military by way of uniforms, weapons, training?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And as far as you know, were there any Serb military forces

7 operating in the neighbouring villages?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Are you a member of the SDS?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you become a member?

12 A. When the party was founded. I think it was in 1991.

13 Q. And have you voted and paid military dues?

14 A. No. There weren't any military dues.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you said military dues --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Military dues.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you were --

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Obviously not military

21 dues.

22 Q. But were there any membership fees?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And did you actually vote as a member of the SDS?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1623

1 Q. And when was this?

2 A. At the very beginning when the party was established. And after

3 the Dayton Agreement, too. These parties are still on the voting tickets

4 and things like that.

5 Q. Okay. I will take you now to the attack on your village,

6 June 26th, 1992. Do you recall that day?

7 A. I think it was the 27th of June.

8 Q. And what were you doing that day?

9 A. I was at home. I took the cattle out, or rather the oxen and the

10 cow.

11 Q. And could you tell us what happened. What did you see and hear?

12 A. When I took the cattle out and when I tied them down in the meadow

13 so that they could graze, about an hour after that - it was about 12.00

14 during the day - two or three detonations could be heard.

15 Q. Could you also hear shooting?

16 A. Yes. There was shooting, too.

17 Q. And what happened next?

18 A. At that moment I thought that we were probably attacked. And I

19 went home.

20 Q. You went to your house?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And why did you do that?

23 A. That's where my brother was and both my parents, my father and

24 mother.

25 Q. And did you get to your home?

Page 1624

1 A. No. Not quite. I met my brother on the way, so I went to the

2 house later to see my parents.

3 Q. Could you tell who was doing the shooting and who was responsible

4 for this explosion?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And who was that?

7 A. The Muslim army who reached the house and were at a distance of

8 about 100 metres from the house itself.

9 Q. And how were the soldiers dressed? Could you see?

10 A. Yes, I could.

11 Q. Could you tell us what uniforms they were wearing?

12 A. They wore camouflage green uniforms, forest keepers uniforms that

13 were green. There were black uniforms there. They had black and green

14 caps on their heads.

15 Q. And were they saying anything that you could hear at that point?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what did you hear them saying?

18 A. The loudest thing was Allahu Akbar or whatever they say.

19 Q. What does that mean as far as you know?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we all know what it means.


22 Q. What else did they say?

23 A. They cursed our Serbian mother. They shouted things like: Catch

24 them alive or give them to us so we can cut their throats.

25 Q. And where were you when you were able to hear these remarks being

Page 1625

1 made?

2 A. At that time I was not far from the house, perhaps 100 metres from

3 the house, in the bush because there is a creek running by the house.

4 Q. Can you tell us when you got back to your house what happened.

5 I'm not sure, did you actually get back to your house? I think you said

6 no.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were there other members of your family in the village at the time

9 of the attack?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And who were they?

12 A. One of my brothers.

13 Q. What about your parents?

14 A. They were with me.

15 Q. And how many soldiers were you able to see from where you were?

16 A. In my yard and around the stable I think about 30 soldiers.

17 Q. And approximately how many soldiers do you think were in the

18 village that day?

19 A. The village itself is about 300 or 400 metres across. From the

20 place of their attack, I think there were about 500 of them, certainly not

21 less.

22 Q. Was there any member, including yourself, were any members of the

23 village guard shooting at the soldiers from what you could see?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And what did you see the soldiers doing?

Page 1626












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1627

1 A. From my position, I couldn't see the village. I only saw my own

2 yard and the house and what they were doing around the house.

3 Q. All right. Well, tell us about that. What could you see them

4 doing in your own yard and to your own house?

5 A. They were taking things out of my house. They were killing my

6 pigs in the yard.

7 Q. What type of things were they taking?

8 A. All the household appliances, starting with the bed.

9 Q. Anything else?

10 A. The freezer, the electrical oven, the electrical heater. I had a

11 mill also, a TV, a radio.

12 Q. And after the soldiers removed these items -- I'm sorry, were you

13 completed -- did you complete the list of things you saw them taking or

14 did you need to continue?

15 A. Then they torched the house and the stable.

16 Q. How did you torch the house? Were you able to see?

17 A. First you could hear two explosive devices and then I saw smoke

18 rising from the house and the stable. Later there was a flame and the

19 whole thing just tumbled down.

20 Q. Let's go to the stable. Were you able to see the stable from

21 where you were?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what did you see them doing, the soldiers?

24 A. I had a young calf in the stable. The calf was screaming, and in

25 that -- it was caught inside the flame and I saw the stable burning.

Page 1628

1 Q. And did they remove anything from the stable, any of your

2 livestock?

3 A. No. Not from the stable. There was this calf that was burning.

4 Q. You mentioned the pigs earlier. What did you see them doing to

5 the pigs?

6 A. I saw that they were killing them.

7 Q. How?

8 A. They were using automatic weapons. The pigs were outside in the

9 yard, and they were killing them all over the place.

10 Q. Were you able to observe what they did with the household items

11 they removed from your house?

12 A. No, nothing further that I could see.

13 Q. Now, after the soldiers burned your house and exploded -- released

14 this explosion, did you see anyone else after the soldiers come into your

15 village and remove anything from -- or I should say anyone else coming

16 into the village?

17 A. Civilians came, Muslims. They came after the military.

18 Q. These civilians, were they men or women?

19 A. All kinds, both men and women.

20 Q. How do you know they were Muslims?

21 A. They kept shouting Allahu Akbar, and they kept yelling: Catch

22 those Serbs alive. They put SDS [as interpreted] symbols and signs on the

23 walls of the houses.

24 Q. SDS symbols or SDA symbols?

25 A. SDA.

Page 1629

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.


3 Q. What else did you see them doing? Were they removing any property

4 or transporting any of the items away?

5 A. I was not able to see anything else that they were doing.

6 Q. Now, while you were -- well, let me do this. I would like to show

7 you, with the usher's assistance, Prosecution's Exhibit 407, the map that

8 you used earlier. I would like you to take a look at that map and could

9 you tell us and draw on the map -- I would hand up a pen to the usher, a

10 red pen --

11 MS. RICHARDSON: With Your Honours' permission. We just need

12 another colour.

13 Q. Can you tell us which direction you first heard the shooting

14 coming from when the village was under attack. If you can look at the map

15 and draw with an arrow or arrows from what direction you heard the

16 shooting and explosion.

17 A. You mean my village?

18 Q. Yes. Well, first locate your village --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- let me can help a little bit. I think we

20 should focus the camera on Bradjevina, where Bradjevina is and then

21 zoom -- put that in the centre of the monitor, of the screen. Bring

22 it -- yes, exactly. And this should help the witness indicate better.

23 You can look at the monitor before you mark. That's Bradjevina.

24 And we would like to know from which direction you heard the shooting

25 coming from.

Page 1630

1 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need to explain that a little bit.

3 For the record, the witness draws a circular line which, however,

4 does not become a complete circle around Bradjevina. And then to the left

5 of the unfinished part of that would-be circle he draws a vertical line

6 starting from the number 651 on the map -- on the map. Yes.

7 Could you explain what you indicated on that map.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were entirely surrounded from all

9 sides. There were attacks. And the first shots were fired from the

10 direction of Kaludra, below the village. And then after that, the

11 shooting spread on all sides between Vranesevici, Magudovici, Bradjevina.

12 And I didn't shut the roof because there was an attack coming from the

13 village. There was an elevation up there that they had seized control of.


15 Q. Could you --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honours --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Richardson, he's your witness.


19 Q. If you could assist us further and draw an arrow from Kaludra from

20 where you heard the shots being fired. We understand that the circle

21 means that it spread and it was coming from all over at a certain point,

22 but you just mentioned the village Kaludra. Could you draw an arrow and

23 point so that the record is clear.

24 A. [Witness complies].

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And were these artillery shots, small weapons,

Page 1631

1 rifles, or were they mortars or what were they, the shots that you heard

2 coming from the direction of Kaludra? Could you describe them.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shooting was just below the

4 village. That was from the direction of Kaludra. I'm talking about the

5 side that the shooting came from. And the detonations that we could hear

6 inside the village, I think those were bombs, explosive devices. I don't

7 think they had any artillery weapons or heavy weaponry.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

9 Ms. Richardson.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 We can put the map away for now.

12 Q. Could you tell us -- you stated that you were in the bushes and

13 could you tell us who you were with.

14 A. My brother was there, my mother and my father. Later some other

15 people from the village came over.

16 Q. When you say "came over," well, how did they -- were they trying

17 to escape the attack? Is that why they were there?

18 A. Yes. They were trying to escape from the attack. They were

19 running from the village to the creek because that was the only shelter in

20 sight. That was a way out for us.

21 Q. And this creek that you were hiding by, could you tell us after

22 you saw the -- your house -- the explosion from your house and the goods

23 being taken out and you saw the civilians, what happened then?

24 A. At that point in time I started walking down the creek. I tried

25 to get as far as I could so I couldn't be caught. While they were busy

Page 1632

1 doing all that over there, I seized the opportunity to walk part of the

2 way where I was most afraid they would be waiting for me.

3 Q. And you were walking along with your parents and your brother and

4 other members of the village?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Where did you go along this creek? Where did you end up? Where

7 did you end up?

8 A. We walked down the river towards Grabovacka Rijeka. There's a

9 river running between all these Serbian villages that runs towards the

10 Drina.

11 Q. And were you able to see anything else as you were along this path

12 by the stream?

13 A. I went down the stream.

14 Q. And what else were you able to see, if anything, with respect to

15 the village of Bradjevina itself or any of the surrounding villages?

16 A. I walked perhaps 200 metres down the stream and then there was

17 another path there you had to cross to get any further down. We paused

18 there in the creek for about half an hour. There was no way to move on.

19 They were torching stables and burning livestock. They would have noticed

20 us. I heard sounds of crying. There was a man moaning and then crying

21 for help.

22 Q. Let me just stop you for a moment. You said they were torching

23 stables and burning livestock. Who are you specifically referring to?

24 Who is "they"?

25 A. The Muslims.

Page 1633

1 Q. And were they soldiers or civilians?

2 A. All of them together.

3 Q. So they were intermingled?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what village or hamlet were you able to see the stables being

6 torched and the livestock being burned? Were they -- was this in

7 Bradjevina or some other village as you were walking along the stream?

8 A. Between Bradjevina and Magudovici there are meadows belonging to

9 people from both villages. There are meadows there jointly owned by

10 people from both villages. That's near the creek.

11 Q. Okay. And after you passed -- as you were walking along, could

12 you tell us what happened then. You were along the stream and then you

13 observed the burning of the barns. What happened next?

14 A. I heard one of the Muslims yelling, calling on others.

15 Q. What was he saying?

16 A. He was calling on Seval [phoen] from Mocevici. And he said:

17 Seval, come on, come on, faster, faster.

18 Q. And you said -- did he say anything else?

19 A. I heard another man who saw Ljubisa Gajic somewhere along the road

20 from the neighbouring village of Magudovici and he was moving towards

21 Bradjevina.

22 Q. Was this the person --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Because I am sure going back to line 5

24 and then 6. He said: "I heard one of the Muslims yelling, calling on

25 others." And then you reported as having asked the question what was he

Page 1634

1 saying. But I recall you asking him also who was he.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, I think he also said:

3 Come on, faster, faster.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. But let's start from this and go

5 through this part again.

6 This person who you heard, this Muslim yelling, calling on others

7 and calling on Seval, do you know who he was?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably one of their commanders who

9 took part in this. I don't know because I didn't see him.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What was he saying, telling Seval, that you heard?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was yelling at him to come faster

12 from the river, the same direction I was headed, to the right of myself.

13 This Ljubisa was somewhere along the road and he was calling him from up

14 there to hurry up, to get out of the river, to cut across the path between

15 Drajuvina [phoen] and Magudovici as fast as he could. That's at least

16 what I thought.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

18 And Ms. Richardson, we've got one minute left. If you can

19 conclude on this, you conclude; if not, we'll adjourn until tomorrow.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. I think I can ask one final

21 question.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

23 Q. You indicated that you heard someone crying. Do you know who that

24 was? Could you tell who was crying and where the crying was coming from?

25 A. From my right-hand side. And the person crying was Ljubisa Gajic,

Page 1635

1 not far from me. Perhaps 100 metres from where I was standing.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I think we can conclude

3 at this point.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 Mr. Stevanovic, we have to stop here for today. We will continue

6 and finish with you tomorrow, starting at 9.00. So you will be attended

7 to.

8 May I remind you of something very important. It's very important

9 that you do not talk to anyone on the subject matter of your testimony.

10 You have an absolute duty to refrain from doing so. And if anyone tries

11 to approach you to discuss these matters, you are also duty-bound to

12 inform us straight away.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. So you will be escorted out of the

15 courtroom. And we will adjourn. Tomorrow 9.00. I think it's in the

16 morning again, no? Tomorrow, 9.00, and I think it's in this same

17 courtroom. Yes, thank you.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

21 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.