1 Friday, 3 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar. Could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Oric, can you follow the

10 proceedings in a language you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. I can fully follow the proceedings. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may be seated and good afternoon to

14 you.

15 Appearances Prosecution.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. On behalf of the

18 Prosecution, Joanne Richardson, counsel Gramsci Di Fazio, and our case

19 manager, Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you.

21 Appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm

23 Vasvija Vidovic, appearing for Mr. Oric, together with Mr. John Jones.

24 Joining us here today are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic and our

25 case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good afternoon to

2 you.

3 Can we proceed with the cross-examination of the witness? Yes.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just as a matter of

5 organisation for this afternoon. If Madam Vidovic could give us even a

6 rough estimation of how long, I can let people know when to bring the

7 next --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe I will take

10 two and a half hours. As always, however, I will do my best to keep it as

11 brief as possible, depending on the witness's answers, of course.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: My suggestion to you, having some experience in -- I

13 think an abundance of experience, I would have your next witness present

14 here just before the next break. In other words, you should have him here

15 in about an hour and a half's time.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated].

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. You may remain

18 seated, and I will -- because I need to explain to the witness what's

19 going to happen. And then, obviously, because I know from -- again from

20 experience, how sometimes inconvenient it is for either Prosecution or the

21 Defence when you are dealing with a witness to stop halfway and then

22 continue two days later. So you choose the time, and the subject.

23 Because I don't know whether you would be able to finish with this witness

24 today. So if you are not in a position with this witness, with the next

25 witness obviously, then you choose the subjects and the time when you

1 would like to stop.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand completely. I'll certainly make my --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- whether you will find us cooperative because this

4 is -- anyone who's got trial experience knows exactly what I'm talking

5 about.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll attend to that. Thank you.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Filipovic, good afternoon to you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to continue and finish with your

11 testimony today. May I just remind you for the record that you are still

12 under oath; in other words, you're still testifying on the basis of the

13 solemn declaration that you entered yesterday. You understand that, don't

14 you?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please be seated. And Madam Vidovic now

17 will start with her cross-examination.

18 WITNESS: SLAVOLJUB FILIPOVIC [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Filipovic.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you were a member of the Serbian Democratic Party,

24 which I will from now on refer to as the SDS, weren't you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In this area, throughout 1991 and 1992, the SDS was very active,

2 wasn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. I had hoped that everything would go fine

7 today so we proceed as efficiently as we could, but I see that the script,

8 transcript on my monitor is not scrolling. So there seems to be something

9 wrong. One moment until we fix this. I don't know whether on yours it is

10 scrolling, but on mine it isn't.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [In English] The same problem.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.

13 Let me just check on the other one. No, no. Sorry about this,

14 Madam Vidovic.

15 Do we need to stay in here or is it something that can be solved

16 shortly or do we need to retire and come again?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will probably have

19 to repeat my initial questions. Therefore --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think we can see my first two

22 questions in the transcript here. Yes. Both the questions and the

23 answers have been recorded. Therefore, if that's all right, I would just

24 like to resume my questioning.

25 Q. Mr. Filipovic - Sikiric and Bjelovac - did it have more than 40

1 members of the SDS at the time? Do you know anything about that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. No, as in I don't know; or no, it didn't have?

4 A. No, I don't know.

5 Q. Fair enough. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

7 please. I would like to place the following document on the ELMO. It's

8 an excerpt from the minutes of a meeting of the Serbian Municipal Assembly

9 of Bratunac, 1991, 1992, and 1993.

10 Witness, can you please look at page 00835911 of the B/C/S

11 version. The page is 03020609 of the English.

12 Q. Mr. Filipovic, can you please have a look now. Look at number 9.

13 Do you see the name Milenko Mirovic there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know that person?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. You were close with this person, weren't you?

18 A. He's a neighbour of mine.

19 Q. That's right. Throughout 1991, 1992, and 1993, Mr. Milenko

20 Mirovic, also known as Miga [phoen], from Bjelovac, was a deputy in the

21 Serbian Assembly of Bratunac, wasn't he?

22 A. This is not something that I'm aware of.

23 Q. Does this document not appear to show that?

24 A. Have you seen the title of this document? Members of the

25 Assembly.

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1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. I'm now

2 receiving French interpretation. I'm receiving French interpretation.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We all think very highly of you, Mr. Oric. So I

4 think we need to find a solution to that.

5 Are you receiving interpretation in B/C/S now?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honours. It's all

7 right now.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Sometimes it happens, Mr. Oric. Sometimes it

9 happens.

10 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thought that --

12 well --

13 Q. Mr. Filipovic, can you please look at the title of this document,

14 minutes, members of the Serbian Assembly.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you familiar with the fact that Mr. Mirovic was a deputy for

17 the Bjelovac area?

18 A. No. I was not familiar with that.

19 Q. Thank you. Be that as it may, you were close, weren't you?

20 A. Yes, and we still are.

21 Q. Alongside with other members of the SDS from Bjelovac and Sikiric,

22 he implemented the policies created by the SDS leadership in the area

23 prior to the beginning of the war and at the beginning of the war?

24 A. No.

25 Q. The SDS was preparing the Serbs in the area for the war long

1 before the war began; isn't that correct?

2 A. I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. This document that we have shown the witness, can it please be

4 assigned a number as an exhibit, the document that he commented upon.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, Judge Eser has a question, and this

8 will be assigned a number as Defence Exhibit D?

9 THE REGISTRAR: 98, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 98. Thank you.

11 Yes, Judge Eser.

12 JUDGE ESER: Ms. Vidovic, I would have two questions. The English

13 translation reads Serbian Municipal Assembly of Bratunac. Now, does it

14 mean it's identical with the SDS or is it something else? My question

15 one.

16 Question two: It speaks of Assembly Men of the Serbian Assembly

17 and minutes for the years 1991, 1992, and 1993. Does this indicate that

18 these people mentioned here have been members all these years or may they

19 have been some time within these years, which would make it possible that

20 somebody has been member in 1991, but not any more in 1993, or the other

21 way around? So how is it -- is this to be interpreted?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have submitted the

23 original of the document for translation. This is a very long document,

24 in its entirety. On the title-page, it has a title "Minutes 1991, 1992,

25 1993." However, this is a translation as the document has been

1 translated. That's all I can say. The translation is what it is.

2 Instead of being translated separately, on a separate page, what happens

3 is that the title-page starts running on the first page and reads "Minutes

4 from 1991, 1992, and 1993."

5 However, the document itself speaks about who the board members

6 were of the Serbian Assembly, or deputy men, in 1991, 1992, and 1993. In

7 our system, back at home, usually deputies are elected for a four-year

8 term, and these were the Assembly men who were in the Serbian Assembly at

9 the time. That is all I can give you. This is the document that we

10 received.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: In addition, as a follow-up to your question,

12 because I think it has only been partly and very partly answered.

13 I notice that the document that you have submitted, and in the

14 answer that you have given to Judge Eser, you have not answered the

15 question that was put to you whether the Serbian Municipal Assembly of

16 Bratunac is the same as the SDS of Bratunac. And the other thing I wanted

17 to note is that looking at the English translation and the previous two

18 pages, forming part of this exhibit, and knowing a little bit of your

19 language, I see that, while we have ERN 9 -- 5911 here and 5910, we do not

20 have 5909, in which seems to be a specific reference to the Serbian

21 Municipal Assembly of Bratunac. That is missing from the original.

22 Because this page does not say that. And the next page does not say that

23 either. And the third page -- and the second page that you have in your

24 language, apart from the Bratunac, in the first line, minutes here, in the

25 first line, does not say the Serbian Municipal Assembly, but it just

1 says "assemblymen of the Serbian Assembly."

2 So your answer -- I would like an answer, basically, as to whether

3 you -- whether the Serbian Municipal Assembly and SDS to you mean the same

4 thing. I know the answer, but it's a question that has been put to you,

5 not to me.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the Bosnian or

7 Serbian original, under the title "Minutes," it says "deputies to the Serb

8 Assembly" or "assemblymen," and this is an official translation, Assembly

9 men or deputies. That's just under the title which says "Minutes." It

10 says "assemblymen of the Serb Assembly."

11 As far as I know --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have 5909. This is basically what I'm

13 saying. We have 590 -- and it's in 5909 that you have the title of "the

14 Serbian Municipal Assembly of Bratunac."

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 59 -- Your Honours, the page 590 --

16 yes. Yes. However, Your Honours, in our copy it is a black page. I will

17 try to ask my colleagues from the OTP to give us a better copy. In our

18 copy, the page is black. However, I believe this document to be perfectly

19 clear and obvious, and the gist of my question went to Mr. Mirovic. The

20 question was whether he was a deputy in the Serb Assembly on behalf of the

21 Bjelovac area. The answer was that the witness didn't know, so ...

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Ms. Richardson.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, my only comment with respect to this

24 document is that with all due respect to Madam Vidovic's knowledge of the

25 political system in Bosnia, I think it's still unclear that this is a

1 document from the SDS. If this is the Serbian Municipal Assembly of

2 Bratunac, that's what it is. I don't know if there are more than one

3 parties with respect to the Serb -- whether or not the Serbs had more than

4 one political party. It's still unclear that this is in fact from the

5 SDS. And then with respect to what Your Honours --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I have no indication so far that it is from the SDS,

7 Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, that's --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And what I have an indication of is, and it's only

10 in the English page, not in the Serbian -- not in the B/C/S text. In the

11 B/C/S -- in the English text, which consists of one paper, allegedly or

12 supposedly reproducing the gist of three pages in B/C/S, we only have two

13 corresponding pages. We don't have 5909, which is the only one of the

14 three that specifically mention the Serbian Municipal Assembly of

15 Bratunac.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: I understand that, Your Honour. And my

17 objection, my second objection, would be to exactly that, that this page

18 is missing. The Prosecution can look into whether or not this is also a

19 blank page.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I don't know, but if it's blank, how

21 can it be translated into English?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, the Defence is claiming that

23 it is blank and that they received this document from us. If that's my

24 understanding.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I haven't seen 5909.

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1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we received this

2 document, together with the SDS-related documents. It was disclosed to us

3 by the OTP as part of the set of documents related to the SDS. There is a

4 black page with the SDS sign, and that's all that can be seen on that

5 particular page. Please accept my apologies for not submitting this page.

6 We will be submitting the page in due course. But we received these

7 documents as part of the SDS set from the OTP. If this is a problem, I

8 can simply withdraw this document and use it in some --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Not a problem, but I have to be fair with Judge

10 Eser. I have been here long enough to at least have a clear idea of what

11 happened over the years during the conflict. But Judge Eser hasn't had

12 that fortune or misfortune that I have had. And his question is a very

13 pertinent one, and I can't answer it, because I have -- I am a trained

14 lawyer and a trained judge, and I will only take into consideration in

15 this case what emerges in this case, not what I know from other cases and

16 from my own personal knowledge.

17 So please do answer the question that Judge Eser put to you: Does

18 the Serbian Municipal Assembly of Bratunac mean the SDS or not? Or is it

19 something different?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Should I answer the question?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I can tell him privately what I think, but that

22 doesn't count.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Assembly of the

24 Serbian Municipality of Bratunac consisted mainly of SDS members, and can

25 we please have the witness confirm that.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The municipality of Bratunac

2 Assembly did not merely consist of the SDS. In Bratunac there were two

3 political parties, as in most other areas. The first one was Dear Allah,

4 and the other one was the SDS. And the SDS, as has been maliciously

5 underlined by some, was supposed to be some sort of democratic party.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Filipovic, we're not talking about the Assembly of the

8 Bratunac municipality, but rather the Serbian Bratunac municipality.

9 A. No. We're talking about the Assembly of the Serbian Democratic

10 Party, in as far as I understand

11 Q. Do you agree with me that there were no SDS members in that

12 Serbian Assembly?

13 A. Yes. And you, in turn, agree that there were no Serbs in the SDS.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your permission,

15 I would like --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because you are firing questions and

17 answers at each other without the usual pause that I have recommended and

18 which causes so many problems to the interpreters, et cetera. And what I

19 have here is a confusion, a total confusion.

20 Let's go through it again - sorry - bit by bit.

21 There was a question: Do you agree with me that there were no SDS

22 members in that Serbian municipality? How can you speak of there not

23 being any SDS members in the Serbian municipalities? So there's either a

24 mistake in interpretation here or a mistake in the question, or I am

25 getting confused. But I don't think I am getting confused. I normally

1 don't. So -- but then there is the question, and you, in turn, agree --

2 the answer: "And you, in turn, agree that there were no Serbs in the SDS.

3 How can anyone agree that there were no Serbs in the SDS and how can

4 anyone agree that there were no SDS members in the Serbian Democratic --

5 in the Serbian Assembly?

6 Let's start from here: Was there a municipality of Bratunac, not

7 a Serbian municipality of Bratunac, a municipality of Bratunac?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was a municipality of

9 Bratunac.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it there in 1991?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it there in 1992?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: The entire year of 1992?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the war broke out.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Until the war -- when did the war break out?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] April or early May.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So what happened then in April or early May? What

19 happened to this municipality, Municipal Assembly of Bratunac, when the

20 war broke out?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what was going on

22 there. I didn't have any information about it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you first hear of a Serbian municipality of

24 Bratunac?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But did you ever hear of a Serbian municipality of

2 Bratunac?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about the

4 municipality of Bratunac, yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So you heard about the municipality of Bratunac, but

6 you never heard about the Serbian municipality of Bratunac?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And how was the composition of the municipality of

9 Bratunac? Was it representative of all the political parties, that is,

10 the Serbs, the Muslims, the Bosniaks, and also the Croats?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Until it lasted. You told me that until the war

13 broke out, there was such a thing as the municipality of Bratunac.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and everyone was represented.

15 It was the SDA and SDA party delegates who made up the Assembly, and the

16 president of the municipality was a candidate of the SDA party. He came

17 into power in 1991, and his name was Dubicic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, look at the usher, please.

19 Could the witness be shown the same document that he was referred

20 to by Madam Vidovic.

21 Look at the list of those Assembly men, 31 of them. Do you know

22 those persons? Do you know the majority of them? Or do you know only a

23 few of them?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know them.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You know them. Are they Serbs? Are they Croats?

1 Are they Muslims? Or is that list composed of mixed ethnicities?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbian.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So do you think that if this list consists of

4 entirely of Serbian Assembly men, do you think that this is the list of

5 the municipality of Bratunac or is it a list of a separate municipality,

6 precisely called "the Serbian Municipality of Bratunac"?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say here. One thing,

8 there is a party assembly, and the party had such a list.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I will not pursue with it any further,

10 because I think I have done enough to enable you also to give an answer.

11 But there is an historical explanation to all this. So I'm not going into

12 it, because it's a question of evidence. So either the evidence is

13 brought forward or it isn't.

14 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Filipovic, please listen to my questions carefully and respond

17 to what I ask. I may ask you about the SDA and the Muslims, and I may

18 not. But please focus on my questions. I do not wish to enter into a

19 polemic with you; I'm just trying to do my job.

20 Please, Witness -- in fact, I'm asking the usher now to show the

21 witness another document.

22 Witness, please look at this document. It's a document of the

23 Bratunac Brigade, 00656813. It's a certificate signed by Pero Petrovic,

24 the company commander. Please look at the certificate, confirming that

25 Milenko Ivanovic was mobilised on the 25th of March, 1992 into the TO

1 Bjelovac and was there until the 28th of August, 1992. Mr. Filipovic, do

2 you know Milenko Ivanovic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Then I'll ask you something else. It's correct that the SDS

5 mobilised the Serb population in the area as early as late March 1992,

6 that is, before the general mobilisation of the Serbian population was

7 announced by regular bodies, such as the Presidency; is this correct?

8 A. The only thing I see here is a certificate. This is not a draft

9 note.

10 Q. What I'm asking you is: Do you have any knowledge about the

11 mobilisation of the Serbian population on the 25th of March, 1992?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. I move that this document be assigned a number.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This document is being assigned Exhibit number D99.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask the usher

16 again to put on the ELMO document D37, a Defence exhibit.

17 Q. Please look at the document. This is an order on the forming of

18 staffs of the Territorial Defence of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian

19 Municipality of Bratunac, and it's dated 12th April 1992. I will quote

20 number 1: "The TO of the Serbian Municipality shall take over all defence

21 tasks in the territory of the Serbian Municipality of Bratunac." 2: "The

22 TO of the Serbian Municipality comprises the following: Municipal

23 Territorial Defence headquarters with headquarter support units, TO

24 detachment, a company formation, local commune units," and so on.

25 Mr. Filipovic, I will now put a question to you. As a member of

1 the SDS, you will know that at that time, the SDS implemented its policy

2 through crisis staffs; is that correct?

3 A. No. I didn't have anything to do with that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the correct answer to the question that was put

5 to you. The question that was put to you is not whether you had anything

6 to do with the crisis staffs set up by the SDS. The question was whether,

7 as a member of the SDS, you knew that at the time the SDS implemented its

8 policy through crisis staffs. We're talking during the conflict. No.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Do you know that the crisis staffs organised the local Serb

13 population into Territorial Defence units?

14 A. I don't know about a crisis staff in my village, and as for the

15 municipality of Bratunac, I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. It's correct, Mr. Filipovic, that the SDS was armed on a large

17 scale by the JNA; they armed the local Serb population just before the

18 outbreak of the war. Is that correct?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Very well, Mr. Filipovic. I'll move on.

21 I will now show you a map of the Bjelovac area.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... going to do with

23 that document.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise. I

25 think this has already been tendered into evidence.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, it has a number. I just wanted to

2 make sure of that.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I will show you a map of Bjelovac and the

5 surrounding area, and I will ask you to look at the places that I have

6 highlighted in yellow, in order to make it easier for you to orient

7 yourself on this map. This is a map of the Bjelovac area, and it's part

8 of a map created by the military geographical institute. It was printed

9 in 1971. Mr. Filipovic, please look at it, and can you please use the

10 pointer to indicate and circle with a pencil the places I read out. Can

11 you show us the area of Rakovac, please.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Yes. Pobrdje.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Voljevica?

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Zaluzje?

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Bjelovac?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Biljaca?

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Sikiric, and finally Sase.

24 Could you please give the witness a pen so that he can circle

25 these places and put his initials on the map, because we intend to tender

1 it into evidence.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a need for that? I will just put on the

3 record that the Trial Chamber could follow the witness confirming the

4 position or the location of the villages or towns indicated to him by

5 Madam Vidovic on the map, which is going to be given the exhibit number

6 D100. And all these villages are highlighted in yellow on the said

7 exhibit.

8 Yes, Judge Eser.

9 JUDGE ESER: I have a question to the witness.

10 Now, if you could look at the map. You see, at least in the

11 version we have, that some places like Voljevica, Zaluzje, and Bjelovac

12 are written in a horizontal way, whereas, what is it, Rakovac is written

13 in a different way. Now, is Rakovac a village or is it a valley or a

14 mountain? What is the difference between places like Bjelovac and

15 Rakovac? Same type of village or municipality or ...

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I respond?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yesterday, on the map shown to us by

19 the Prosecutor, we saw Sikiric written in the same way. This is the area

20 of the village of Rakovac, and I ask that the witness correct me if I'm

21 wrong.

22 Q. Rakovac is a village, is it not?

23 A. Well, it's a kind of suburb of Bratunac.

24 Q. But it's a village?

25 A. Yes.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I go on?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's still no answer to Judge Eser's questions. Why

3 is Bjelovac the only name or the only village that appears in italics and

4 not in normal script? Is there an explanation for it?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really have no

6 explanation for this. All I know is that this is an official map

7 published by the military geographical institute for the Zvornik area, and

8 we have the original of this map, which I can show Your Honours. But I

9 have no answer to this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... Judge Eser.

11 JUDGE ESER: May I have just another question. I must say for me

12 still sometimes a little bit difficult to distinguish between villages and

13 towns and municipalities. Now, yesterday we learned that the witness

14 insisted he lived in Loznica and not in Bjelovac. Now, here Loznica is

15 even written in a straighter script than Bjelovac. Now, what is the

16 relationship between Bjelovac and Loznica? Is it Loznica part of

17 Bjelovac? And if so, again, what is Bjelovac comprising? What is the

18 relationship to Rakovac up there?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may the witness respond

20 to this question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can answer this question. I

22 didn't know that we were partly in Serbia, because half the name is across

23 the River Drina. Bjelovac is not a village. Loznica is a village.

24 Bjelovac consists of six areas that together make up a local commune, and

25 the land register says that Bjelovac -- well, Bjelovac doesn't actually

1 exist. Loznica is a village, but Bjelovac consists of six areas, and as

2 far as I can tell from this map, half the village is in Serbia, because

3 it's across the Drina.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a map of the

5 military geographical institute of the former Yugoslavia. It's only the

6 letters that cross the border or the River Drina, not the marking of the

7 village.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not even the letters should cross

9 the Drina.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, because now we end up trying the

11 military cartographers.

12 Next question, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can I have

14 the usher's assistance, please, to place on the ELMO an excerpt from the

15 Bratunac Brigade documents, salaries for May 1992, prior to which,

16 Witness, I would like to ask you to answer the following question:

17 Q. What was the distance between Rakovac and Bjelovac?

18 A. Same as Bratunac, about seven kilometres.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So the previous document is being marked D100.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can Madam Usher please place the

22 page 01320211 on the ELMO. This is a list of salaries for the month of

23 May. If you could turn the page, please. The Rakovac list, 1st Platoon,

24 this is the English version. Can you please just place the B/C/S. The

25 B/C/S.

1 Q. Mr. Filipovic, please have a good look. Look at this page

2 closely. I asked you about the arming of the local Serb population a

3 while ago. This is a list from the financial records dated May 1992. You

4 see a number of names here. Can you please look with particular attention

5 at the column which says "weapons." In connection with that, do you know,

6 Mr. Filipovic, that PAP is a kind of rifle?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know that PM stands for machine-gun?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Mr. Filipovic, can you please look at number 15. Stojadin

11 Milovanovic, PM-72 is the sign.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you know this person?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does this mean that there is a weapon attached to his name, a 72

16 machine-gun?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You did say yes, didn't you? Did I get that correctly? Fair

19 enough.

20 Can you please now turn to page 01320213. It's a list for the

21 2nd Platoon, also showing -- please, if you could have a look, also

22 showing a column entitled "weapons." Do you agree, Mr. Filipovic, that

23 Rakovac is a small village? You said the distance from Bjelovac was seven

24 kilometres, didn't you?

25 A. Seven kilometres, yes.

1 Q. Does this not appear to mean that as early as May 1992, these

2 people had been armed with different kinds of rifles, the PAP

3 semi-automatic, automatic rifles, AP -- can you please just allow me to

4 finish my question?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You're going too fast, both of you. Please.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Many of these had machine-guns too, didn't they? However, what

8 I'm talking about now is this specific list of persons in relation to

9 Rakovac, the one that you've just looked at.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Very well.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I move that this document be

13 assigned a number as a Defence exhibit.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be document -- Defence Exhibit D101.

15 Next.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, do you agree that many different TO units were set up and

18 active in and around Bjelovac from May 1992 onwards?

19 A. I only know about the defence of the village.

20 Q. Very well.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have Madam Usher's assistance,

22 please, to place a different Bratunac document on the ELMO. The number

23 is -- the number is 01320266. It's a list for the payment of salaries,

24 May 1992. In the brackets, "(different TO units)."

25 Q. Can you please have a close look. At number 1 we can see Veso

1 Simic, Rakovac, 50.000. Number 2, Zoran Simic, Bjelovac, again 50.000.

2 And so on and so forth. Do you know any of these persons? Do you know

3 Mr. Zoran Simic, for example?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it true that in this period of time he was a member of the TO?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Fair enough. Mr. Filipovic, is it not true that in May 1992,

8 units of the Territorial Defence were in fact so well organised that they

9 were even receiving salaries, including Bjelovac and Rakovac?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document please be assigned

13 number.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will be Defence Exhibit D102.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, can you please place on

16 the ELMO a Bratunac Brigade document, and the number is 01320174. This is

17 a list of salaries for May 1992. The title is "List of soldiers of the

18 120-millimetre mortar platoon."

19 Q. Can you please have a look, sir. Mr. Filipovic, a while ago I

20 asked you to show us Pobrdje on the map, and you obliged. You remember

21 that, don't you? It's further down from Rakovac. Can you please now look

22 at the first five names on this list. Savo Lukic, Pobrdje; Dragan

23 Ostojic, also Pobrdje; Radivoje Prisic, again Pobrdje; Dragan Neskovic,

24 Pobrdje; Zoran Prodanovic, Pobrdje.

25 Mr. Filipovic, the first five persons on this list in relation to

1 the 120-millimetre mortar platoon are all from Pobrdje.

2 A. I have no idea.

3 Q. That's what the document says. Do you know any of those persons?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. May I then ask you something else now. 120-millimetre mortars are

6 classified as heavy artillery, aren't they?

7 A. I know it's some sort of a weapon, but I'm not sure about the

8 type.

9 Q. But you do agree these are no rifles, no machine-guns; we're

10 talking about heavy artillery here, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. They were not shelling Serb villages, were they?

13 A. I have no idea about that specific date.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I draw your

15 attention to the fact that this document has a page of salaries in

16 relation to May 1992.

17 Q. Therefore, Witness, can you please answer my question. Were they

18 shelling Muslim villages, in as far as you know?

19 A. I'm not familiar with that. The distance is seven kilometres,

20 after all.

21 Q. Very well.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I move that this list of salaries

23 for May 1992, the list of 120-millimetre mortar platoons, be assigned a

24 number.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document will receive the documentation

1 number D103.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will now show D82, a

3 Defence exhibit. This is a census of Bosnia-Herzegovina in relation to

4 Bratunac. I'm going to base my questions to the witness on that document.

5 Q. Mr. Filipovic, is it not true that Voljevica, before the war, had

6 a total of 1.379 inhabitants and the number of Bosniaks was 375? In other

7 words, was that not an exclusively Muslim village?

8 A. I'm not a statistician, madam. How on earth should I know how

9 many inhabitants there were?

10 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I'm not here to argue with you. Please, if you

11 can't answer my question, just say no.

12 A. No.

13 Q. No, it didn't have?

14 A. I don't know if it had or not.

15 Q. So you don't know.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. May we just have a

17 correction on the transcript. I said 1379, and the number of

18 Bosniaks, 1375.

19 Q. Sir, do you agree that Zaluzje had 624 inhabitants and 621 of them

20 were Bosniaks? Do you not agree that Zaluzje was predominantly Muslim?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Is it not correct that Biljaca, the place that you showed us on

23 the map, had 655 inhabitants, 622 of them Bosniaks, which means that it

24 was a predominantly Muslim village?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is it not correct that Sikiric had 442 inhabitants, 240 of them

2 Bosniaks? Do you agree with that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Finally, Bjelovac had 290 inhabitants, 231 were Serbs and 59 were

5 Bosniaks, and I'm referring to the local commune of Bjelovac. Is that not

6 correct?

7 A. You mean Loznica?

8 Q. No, not Loznica. I mean Bjelovac.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Filipovic?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Judge Eser.

12 JUDGE ESER: I still -- I'm really confused. You are insisting

13 that you wanted to know the inhabitants of Bjelovac. We have heard that

14 Bjelovac consisted of different village, that Bjelovac was not a village

15 as such.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: She said the commune.

17 JUDGE ESER: The commune. Comprising which villages?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All the villages, I would say.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm presenting data

20 established by the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina when carrying out the

21 census of the village of Bjelovac. I suppose the authorities had in mind

22 exactly what Bjelovac referred to, what it covered. I'm not sure whether

23 the hamlets were included or not, but my reference was to our document,

24 our Defence Exhibit D --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But wait. Wait a minute. Your question was:

1 Finally, Bjelovac had 290 inhabitants, 231 were Serbs and 59 were

2 Bosniaks, and I'm referring to the local commune of Bjelovac. Is that not

3 correct?

4 So his answer, we would expect, would be in relation to the entire

5 commune of Bjelovac. That's how I understand it.

6 Yes, Judge Eser.

7 JUDGE ESER: If you talk of -- I always understood Bjelovac as a

8 commune which is comprising several villages.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And that was the question. I read the question.

10 JUDGE ESER: But wouldn't this broader or larger commune have more

11 inhabitants than you were mentioning here? You speak of Bjelovac had 290

12 inhabitants. But I have in mind that Loznica and Sikiric, each of them

13 had almost the same number of inhabitants. So how can it be that Bjelovac

14 has only 290 inhabitants? Something just doesn't fit together.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right.

16 JUDGE ESER: Something doesn't fit together, at least my

17 impression.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the reference here is

19 to a Bosnia-Herzegovina census. The ethnic breakdown in the villages and

20 hamlets, 1992, in relation to Bratunac. All the villages that we referred

21 to today are here. Biljaca, for example, has 655 inhabitants, just like I

22 suggested to the witness today, 629 were Muslims and the rest Serbs.

23 Bjelovac, 290 Serbs and 59 Muslims. Sikiric and Pobrdje are in a separate

24 class. 257 inhabitants. Rakovac is a separate village, 355 inhabitants

25 and 351 are Muslims. Sikiric is a separate category. Back in 1991 they

1 had 442 inhabitants, total population 240 Muslims. 201 Serb. Voljevica,

2 370. That's what I have. That's the only way I can present this

3 evidence.

4 JUDGE ESER: May I just express a concern? I think our trial has

5 to be fair, not only to the accused but also to the witnesses. And can we

6 suppose that a witness has the same perception of the composition of a

7 commune, knowing how many people may be in this and that villages, and if

8 these are different villages within a commune, if even the terminology of

9 the different entities is not completely clear? So can we really assume

10 that that is common knowledge to know on what basis a census is founded

11 on?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Perhaps I can give a hand here.

13 Mr. Filipovic, earlier on you were told, or it was put to you and

14 suggested to you to agree that Bjelovac had 290 inhabitants, of which

15 about 59-something were Muslims, the rest were Serbs. And you agreed. Do

16 you remember that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I suppose that's so.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: When you agreed, what did you have in mind by

19 Bjelovac? Was it the commune, with all the hamlets together, or was it

20 just the village or the town of Bjelovac?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring only to the town or

22 village of Bjelovac.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you were to include the -- all the hamlets

24 that together constitute or compose Bjelovac, now, not just the village

25 itself but all the hamlets, what would be the population and how would it

1 be divided?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would add: Biljaca, Zaluzje,

3 Pirici, Sikiric, Tegare, Orlica and Gornja Orlica. Those were the

4 villages that comprised the Bjelovac local commune. The lady is setting

5 out data from Voljevica and separating the data from Pobrdje. Pobrdje

6 belongs to the Voljevica local commune. But the villages Loznica, not

7 Bjelovac, the local commune, however, consists of all these villages.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I think we can proceed. But

9 basically at least we have an indication from the witness now that when he

10 agreed that Bjelovac had 290 distributed so-and-so, he was referring to

11 the Bjelovac, the town itself and not the local commune of Bjelovac. All

12 right? If you have any further questions, please proceed.

13 JUDGE ESER: Although we had heard earlier on that Bjelovac is

14 not -- is only a community or commune, but not a town as such.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's a local commune which includes also a

16 village called Bjelovac. That's how I understand it. Now, if I am not on

17 the right track, please tell me. I mean, I haven't been to the area. I

18 haven't studied the demographic set-up of the area, so I don't know.

19 I take it - correct me if I'm wrong - that you could speak of

20 Bjelovac in two terms, in two contexts: Bjelovac as the local commune of

21 Bjelovac, which consists of all the hamlets that Witness Filipovic

22 mentioned a few minutes ago, and that together with the village of

23 Bjelovac itself would constitute the local commune of Bjelovac; and then

24 you can speak of Bjelovac as the village of Bjelovac, which had only a

25 population of about 290, of which only about 59 were Muslims.

1 Mr. Filipovic, I suppose you have followed what I have just

2 stated. Am I right or am I wrong?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic. I will now ask you the following:

7 Mr. Filipovic, it's correct that the SDS organised the ethnic cleansing of

8 the entire area of several thousand Muslims, including the villages of

9 Voljevica, Zaluzje, Biljaca, and Sikiric, in April and May 1992?

10 A. I'm not familiar with that. You've had representatives of the SDS

11 here.

12 Q. Mr. Filipovic, when you say "you had representatives of the SDS

13 here," who do you mean?

14 A. Miroslav Deronjic, and now you're asking me things I know nothing

15 about.

16 Q. I will ask you as a citizen: It's true that several thousand

17 Muslims were brutally expelled from their homes, forced to flee into the

18 surrounding woods and more distant and relatively safer Muslim villages;

19 is this correct?

20 A. Yes, it's correct that they all passed through Bjelovac. Nobody

21 touched anyone.

22 Q. Thank you. I'm not saying -- I'm not talking of Bjelovac, sir, at

23 this point. Please respond to the questions I put to you.

24 During this expulsion, many of them were mistreated, brutally

25 murdered, and locked up in camps in local Serb villages, and you are aware

1 of this, are you not?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, he hasn't accepted as yet that there

3 was an expulsion, so you can't put it to him that there was an expulsion,

4 or assume that there --

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I said

6 it's correct that several thousand Muslims were brutally expelled from

7 their homes, forced to flee into the woods and to relatively safer Muslim

8 villages; is this correct? And he replied: "Yes, this is correct." It's

9 correct that they all passed through Bjelovac. Nobody touched anyone."

10 I understood the witness to say that they were expelled but that

11 nobody in Bjelovac --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

14 Q. Can you respond?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously the witness was not agreeing with you when

18 he said it's correct. He's telling you what is correct. It's not what

19 you were suggesting to him but what he was suggesting to you. Yes,

20 Mr. Filipovic.

21 I will give you the floor, Ms. Richardson, for a moment.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that was my objection.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

24 Yes, Mr. Filipovic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, they passed through

1 Bjelovac for a month, retreating toward Muslim villages. That's the

2 correction I want to make. They were going where it was safer for them to

3 shoot from.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now put on the ELMO

5 document number 00835779 of the Bratunac Crisis Staff, dated the 19th of

6 April, 1992. It's a decision of the disarming of citizens who own weapons

7 in the area of Bratunac municipality.

8 Q. Would you please show the B/C/S version to the witness. I don't

9 know if he has it before him.

10 Witness, please focus on items 1 and 2. 1: "On the territory of

11 Bratunac municipality, the Bratunac public security station and the

12 Territorial Defence of Bratunac municipality are authorised to disarm

13 citizens who possess weapons in order to establish the safety and security

14 of the citizens of Bratunac municipality." And 2: "The weapons shall be

15 handed over to authorised officials of the Bratunac public security

16 station and the Bratunac municipality Territorial Defence."

17 My question is the following: Bjelovac and the villages you

18 indicated on the map belonged to Bratunac municipality; is this correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You mentioned Miroslav Deronjic. He was the president of the

21 Bratunac SDS, was he not, and of the Bratunac Crisis Staff, wasn't he?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Filipovic, it's correct that in this area, only Muslims were

24 disarmed, isn't it?

25 A. I did not disarm them.

1 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I didn't say you disarmed them. We'll talk about

2 you later. I asked you if it was correct that only Muslims were disarmed

3 during April and May 1992.

4 A. I'm not aware of that. I wasn't there.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I move that this document be

6 assigned a number.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And this document which is being tendered and

8 received in evidence as a Defence exhibit is being assigned the

9 number D104.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Filipovic, are you aware of the fact that the Muslim people of

12 Voljevica, Zaluzje, and Bileca were ordered to hand over their weapons on

13 the 20th of April, 1992?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know that they did hand over their weapons?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know that in spite of the fact that they handed over their

18 weapons, they were attacked and some of them were killed while they were

19 being transported on the 13th of May, 1992? Did you hear that any people

20 were killed on the 13th of May, 1992? I'm referring to a large number of

21 people. Because you lived in the area.

22 A. I don't know what number of people. I didn't hear that.

23 Q. Did you hear that anyone was killed?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you weren't telling the truth when you said that

1 violence in your area started on the 28th of June, 1992 with the attack on

2 your village, were you?

3 A. The 28th of June?

4 Q. Yes, 1992.

5 A. I was speaking about the attack on my village.

6 Q. Is it correct that the violence in the area you lived in that I

7 have just referred to started considerably before the 28th of June, 1992?

8 A. The war started, of course, started before, at Bratunac, Zvornik,

9 and Vlasenica.

10 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I'm asking you about the area you lived in, about

11 the area you lived in.

12 A. I know that people left.

13 Q. Which people, Mr. Filipovic?

14 A. All those Muslim villagers.

15 Q. And they left just like that, for no reason?

16 A. Well, there was a war on.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Filipovic, you were born in Sikiric,

18 weren't you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You weren't? Were you born in Sikiric?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Very well. But you know Sikiric well, don't you?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Yes, Mr. Filipovic, you told the Court, if I understood you

25 correctly, that you lived -- or rather, that in April and May 1992, you

1 were living in Loznica and you even marked the position of the house on

2 the map.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This was your father's house, wasn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But you personally had a house in Bjelovac, and that's where you

7 lived just before the outbreak of the war, wasn't it?

8 A. I don't understand you.

9 Q. I'm asking you a very simple question: Did you have a house of

10 your own in Bjelovac, and did you live there before the beginning of the

11 war?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It's correct, isn't it, that there were Muslim houses in the

14 immediate vicinity of your house?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. For example, the houses of the Sinanovic family; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The house of Rifet Dautbasic, two houses of the Efendic family,

19 four houses of the Alic family and so on; is this correct?

20 A. I can't tell you the exact number of houses.

21 Q. I'm referring to families.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Houses in Donji Bjelovac, those were also Muslim houses, weren't

24 they?

25 A. Where?

1 Q. In Donji Bjelovac.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And these Muslims were looted, their houses were looted, they were

4 intimidated, they were brutally expelled between the 11th of May and the

5 end of May 1992?

6 A. I know personally that a Serb took a Muslim family to the Loznicka

7 River because they asked him for a lift. They asked to go, and they went

8 to Loznicka.

9 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I'll ask you about that, but the truth is quite

10 different. The truth is that you personally took part in these

11 expulsions, isn't it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. In late March 1992, you were already wearing a uniform and walking

14 around Bjelovac carrying weapons?

15 A. I didn't have a uniform.

16 Q. Were you walking around Bjelovac carrying weapons?

17 A. At home?

18 Q. Were you walking around Bjelovac with weapons?

19 A. No.

20 Q. It's true, isn't it, that one evening, wearing a uniform - that

21 was in early April 1992 - you came to the door of Muriz Sinanovic with

22 another uniformed person and demanded that he hand over to the Serbian

23 Territorial Defence a truck that he owned? Isn't that correct?

24 A. No, it isn't.

25 Q. It's true that he refused this, isn't it, Mr. Filipovic?

1 A. It's not true.

2 Q. It's also true that after this, the Serbian Territorial Defence,

3 together with soldiers from Zvornik, burst into his house, searched it,

4 and ransacked the house and wrecked it?

5 A. I'm not aware of that.

6 Q. He then managed to escape death?

7 A. I don't know how he managed to do that if they burst into his

8 house.

9 Q. I'll come to that, Mr. Filipovic. Let's take it step by step.

10 Right after his family was expelled, you personally usurped their

11 property, their house; isn't that correct?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You said, when you made your statement to the Prosecutor in 2000,

14 that you own a cafe in Bjelovac. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It's correct, isn't it, that Muriz Sinanovic's family had a new

17 house which was still under construction which you simply usurped and

18 that's where you made your coffee bar; is this correct?

19 A. No, it isn't.

20 Q. You are trying to say that this coffee bar was not in their house?

21 A. I can prove this with documents. Not in the house. They had a

22 building near the school, and I have a document from Bratunac municipality

23 allowing me to use this prefabricated building on this location. It was

24 not a proper house.

25 Q. Are you trying to say that this was not the family house of the

1 property of the family of Muriz Sinanovic?

2 A. Well, there was a foundation, but I received permission to use it

3 for a year, and it's a wooden prefabricated building.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. It's true that only under the pressure of

5 the international community for the return of the Muslims in that area you

6 only recently left the Sinanovic family property, wrecking everything that

7 you could?

8 A. No. I only removed my own prefabricated building from the

9 foundations of their house.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Q. I will ask you something else now. It is also true that in early

12 May --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just finish this question,

14 Your Honours?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a very brief question.

17 Q. It is also true that in early May 1992, in front of a number of

18 witnesses who were shopping, you stormed the pharmacy at Bjelovac, a

19 state-owned pharmacy, with a group of uniformed and armed people from

20 Bjelovac; you took from Jahic Mujo, a Muslim from Bjelovac, the keys to

21 the pharmacy, you chased him away from the pharmacy, in front of

22 witnesses, telling him that he would no longer be selling flour to Muslims

23 and that Muslims would no longer be able to get their supplies there

24 because it was a Serb place; isn't that correct?

25 A. No, that's not true. That's not how it was.

1 Q. So how was it, then?

2 A. Goods were being distributed there. There were Serbs there and

3 Muslims too. I said: Mujo, don't give these things out, because these

4 are socially owned. How can you distribute things that were socially

5 owned?

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.

8 Thank you.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. How much longer do you think

12 you require?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At least an hour, Your Honour. I

14 have some short video clips to show the witness.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not stopping you, of course. Let's go on.

16 Let's proceed.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Filipovic, it is true, isn't it, that after the war, you

19 continued to harass Muslims and prevent them from returning to their homes

20 in Bjelovac?

21 A. No, it's not true.

22 Q. Throughout the year 2000, you attacked and injured a Muslim person

23 named Samir Jahic, who had returned to Bjelovac. You had placed a knife

24 under his throat, forcing him to get into your vehicle, after which you

25 took him to the Serbian police station and handed him over to the Serb

1 police officers; that's true, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. However, they helped him and they decided to press charges against

4 you, didn't they?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The result was your conviction by the first-instance court in

7 Srebrenica, and the number of the conviction is -- the document is

8 K322/01?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the date is the 15th of February, 2002, isn't it? You were

11 convicted for the crime of depriving a person of liberty, pursuant to

12 Article 145, paragraph 1, of the Criminal Code of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

13 you were sentenced to a month of imprisonment, weren't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I will ask you something else now, Mr. Filipovic. Is it true --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. Yes, Mr. Filipovic. What

17 do you want to say?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must dwell on this question, in

19 order to clarify for Madam Vidovic whether it was intimidation and

20 harassment or if maybe my emotions were being affected. She knows full

21 well what happened. This Muslim told stories around the village about my

22 wife being raped while she was in captivity in Srebrenica.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't interrupt him.

25 Have you finished? Have you finished, Mr. Filipovic, or do you

1 want to add anything else?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have finished. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I have Madam

4 Usher's assistance now, please. I would like to put on the ELMO a

5 sentence of the district court in Bijeljina, pursuant to Mr. Filipovic's

6 appeal, in which he stated exactly what he has now told you, and we do

7 have an English copy of this. A ruling of the district court in Bijeljina

8 dated the 26th of September, 2003, declaring Slavoljub Filipovic's appeal

9 as null and void and unfounded, and confirming, upholding the sentence of

10 the first-instance court in Srebrenica.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I object. The witness has already

12 admitted that he had been arrested and convicted. I don't see the purpose

13 of entering this document into evidence.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But he didn't tell us that --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But he didn't tell us that there was an appeal and

17 that on appeal his appeal was rejected.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's fine, and that could be

19 testimonial. I don't see the purpose.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's leave it, because he's given an explanation

21 for his conduct.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So this will be D105; correct?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I was not

25 about to use this exhibit, but ...

1 JUDGE AGIUS: If you don't want to use it --

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means. I do wish to use

3 it. What I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't have used it had the

4 witness not continued to ...

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can proceed.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: I just wanted to draw attention to the raised

9 hand of Mr. Filipovic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Filipovic, tell me. Yes, go ahead.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have documents to

12 prove what I'm saying. When she told me a while ago that I stole the

13 property of the Sinanovic family and that I left the foundations under the

14 pressure of the international forces. There are documents to show all of

15 this, but she apparently doesn't have any documents to show what she is

16 putting to me.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: For the time being, we are not discussing that. We

18 are discussing this, if we are still discussing it.

19 Yes, Madam Vidovic. Could we move to the next --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- yes, I can move on.

21 Q. Mr. Filipovic, is it not true that the Muslims of Voljevica,

22 Zaluzje, Biljaca, and Sikiric who were either expelled or left the area,

23 as you say, kept trying to return to their homes throughout June and on to

24 December 1992?

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. Do you not know that there was a massive body count, Muslims being

2 killed by mines in the area, placed by the Sikiric unit and other Serb

3 units, or killed in ambushes organised by the local Serb population?

4 A. No, I don't know.

5 Q. In your statement of 2000, you said that you had heard sounds of

6 shooting every day and every evening, didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it possible that the shooting came from these ambushes?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Mr. Filipovic, yesterday you were not telling the truth when you

11 told us that the defence of the village was not well organised, were you?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we will go through this again.

14 When you say "no," answer no, it means that you are admitting that

15 you did not tell us the truth yesterday, or that you are simply rejecting

16 Madam Vidovic's suggestion that you were not telling the truth?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm rejecting.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But I wanted --

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my understanding too.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You personally were in fact a soldier and you received a salary

23 from the beginning of the war onwards; isn't that correct?

24 A. They were sending money. There was money. That's true. But who

25 sent the money and when exactly, I really can't say.

1 Q. Very well. Mr. Filipovic, I'll ask you this in order not to waste

2 time. Is it not true that you were receiving a salary throughout the

3 months of May, June, July, August, September, and October 1992?

4 A. I don't know the exact months.

5 Q. But you were receiving a salary from the Bjelovac TO, weren't you?

6 A. There were things like that, yes.

7 Q. In your testimony, you referred to Slavko Rankic, commander of the

8 2nd Platoon of the Bjelovac TO. Do you recall --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In your testimony, you said Slavko Rankic, who in 1992 was aged

11 about 40, was in charge of the guards; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. The village security. That's what he was in charge of.

13 Q. Mr. Filipovic, do you not agree that only the unit in which you

14 were involved -- that that unit alone had about 160 soldiers? Isn't that

15 correct?

16 A. I don't know the exact number.

17 Q. We're talking about around 100 soldiers, don't we, more or less?

18 A. I can't give you an exact figure.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: I would oppose counsel using the word "soldiers."

22 I don't think the witness has ever agreed there were soldiers. In fact,

23 he said it was the village security, and I think it's unfair to the

24 witness to keep using that word and have him agree to it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are perfectly right, Ms. Richardson.

1 Could you rephrase your question, Madam Vidovic. You referred to

2 these people as guards, or he referred to them as guards, and all of a

3 sudden they became soldiers. There's nothing to -- maybe your contention,

4 but he never admitted that they were soldiers. So you need to put the

5 question first to him whether they were guards or whether they were

6 soldiers.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe the

8 interpretation was soldiers. I said fighters, for that very reason. Be

9 that as it may, I can rephrase the question.

10 Q. Witness --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut it short, and you rephrase the question.

12 I think the witness has followed the debate, so ...

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, the units with which you were involved, how many men did

15 it have, what you have referred to as village guards?

16 A. About 100.

17 Q. Fair enough. Thank you.

18 In addition to your unit, the Bjelovac TO, is it not true that in

19 Bjelovac and around Bjelovac there were in fact other units fighting in

20 the summer and autumn of 1992?

21 A. They were providing security for the water treatment plant in

22 Bratunac. That's why they were there. They were providing security for

23 the water treatment plant.

24 Q. In Kunjerac and Voljevica at that time, there were Red Beret units

25 and other volunteer units from Serbia and the Croatian Krajina that were

1 stationed there, weren't they?

2 A. They kept sending them over from Bratunac, but I don't know where

3 they had come from originally.

4 Q. Thank you. Is it not true that these units were attacking the

5 Muslim population in the summer and autumn of 1992?

6 A. I don't know.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have Madam Usher's assistance

8 now? I would like to show a document on the ELMO. This is a Bratunac

9 Brigade document from the Bratunac Brigade set of documents, military post

10 7042 Bratunac. The number is 01321088 and the title is "Record of

11 soldiers -- of a soldier's death."

12 Q. Mr. Filipovic, can you please look at that document. Next to the

13 name Zarko Komenski [phoen], there is the word "volunteer." He was killed

14 on the 14th of August, 1992 at Voljevica, in combat, in action. Novi Sad

15 is a town in Serbia, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you explain the presence of Zarko Komenski from Novi Sad --

18 rather, what he was doing in the Muslim town of Voljevica on the 14th of

19 August, 1992?

20 A. Yes, I can.

21 Q. The witness said: "Yes, I can." And can I please ask that the

22 OTP do not --

23 A. We never accepted Bosnia-Herzegovina. Even now we still don't

24 accept it. The Serbs have not yet accepted Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Serbs

25 did not create the Republic of Srpska. It created itself. We were under

1 the oath to preserve the brotherhood and unity of Yugoslavia, but that was

2 gone, and that's why we didn't ...

3 Q. Fair enough.

4 A. He's from Novi Sad. He could have walked all the way, for all I

5 know. Many people arrived in Zenica by plane and they survived and there

6 were other detachments there.

7 Q. But this is not my question, is it? The truth of the matter is

8 that at Voljevica, which is the general area of Bjelovac, there were many

9 volunteers from Serbia fighting there, weren't there, and you know that,

10 don't you?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. You just said a minute ago that many people could have walked

13 there.

14 A. No. I'm just saying he may as well have walked over. But the

15 Mujahedin arrived in Zenica by plane. The volunteers returned to Serbia

16 and the Republika Srpska while the Mujahedin remained in Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina.

18 Q. I will try to ask you a question that is relevant to the case in

19 hand. Those people, the volunteers and the Red Berets who were stationed

20 at Kunjerac and Voljevica were in fact attacking the Muslim population

21 that during the summer and autumn of 1992 were trying to return to their

22 villages to get food; isn't that true?

23 A. That's possible.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I move that this be assigned a

25 number.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So this will be Defence Exhibit D106. Do you still

2 require the floor, Ms. Richardson, or not?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. I can we can move on.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Well, I have been -- we have been put in

5 the same category as the accused. We are now receiving interpretation in

6 French. Yes, but this must have moved. Okay. Go ahead, please.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. It is true, isn't it, Mr. Filipovic, that the Bjelovac TO was not

9 the only military unit, even in Bjelovac, fighting in the summer and

10 autumn of 1992?

11 A. There were other units who came to provide security for the water

12 treatment plant, but they had nothing to do with us.

13 Q. Very well. Is it not correct that established and fighting in the

14 area at the time there was also an armoured mechanised unit under the

15 command of Radoje Radojevic?

16 A. They came over from time to time. As for the 14th, I don't know

17 exactly how many of them were there.

18 Q. It's true, isn't it, that all these units took part in the

19 fighting on the 14th of December, 1992?

20 A. I was not able to see for myself. I know up to the middle of the

21 village, but the part of the village where I was, they took no part.

22 Because had they taken part, it wouldn't have turned out like this.

23 Q. You said yesterday that a unit from Bjelovac joined the Bratunac

24 Brigade, but only after the fall of Bjelovac. Is that true?

25 A. Yes.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I ask the usher now to put on the

2 ELMO an excerpt from the document -- or rather, a document of the Bratunac

3 Brigade, number 0658482 to 00658505 in B/C/S. This is a document about

4 the establishment of the Bratunac Brigade and its area of responsibility.

5 Q. Witness, please look at page 1 and 2. Page 1 contains the title

6 and page 2 refers to changes in the area of responsibility. Please look

7 at the text right underneath the heading "Changes in the area of

8 responsibility." I quote: "On the 14th of November, 1992, by an order of

9 the command of the Drina Corps on the formation of the Bratunac Light

10 Infantry Brigade, on the 14th of November, 1992, the area of

11 responsibility of the brigade was designated in the Bratunac and

12 Srebrenica area." There follows a description of the zone of

13 responsibility. And then it says: "On the 14th of November, 1992, the

14 brigade took up positions in the area -- it took control of the area."

15 And then please look where it says: "In the area of the Sase and zinc

16 mine, the brigade took control and defended the area." And there follows

17 a list of toponyms and trig points.

18 And then please look at the next passage in the area of the river

19 Loznica, the brigade took control of the following area: The river Drina,

20 Bjelovac, Kunjerac waterworks, 409 Loznica, Lipak trig point 488, and

21 Sikiric.

22 Mr. Filipovic, from this document, it appears that Bjelovac was

23 covered by the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade a month

24 before the attack; is this correct?

25 A. It was established on the 14th of November.

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. But as to whether it was covered, no. All this was not covered.

3 Q. Are you trying to say that this document is incorrect or what?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I beg your pardon?

6 A. Yes, it's not correct.

7 Q. Very well.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you want to tender this an exhibit.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Also --

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I move that the document be assigned

12 a number.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be assigned document Defence Exhibit number

14 D107, but we would like a statement from you as to what this document is,

15 where it comes from, what it is part of. I know, because we have I think

16 seen it before, or we have seen parts of the same document.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The document was disclosed to the

18 Defence by the Office of the Prosecutor on the CD Bratunac 3 collection,

19 and I will tell you the ERN numbers.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: What I want to know is not who disclosed it to you,

21 where you got it from. This seems to be a chapter of some bigger or

22 longer document. What is the longer document?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a document of the Bratunac

24 Brigade, on the history of the Bratunac Brigade.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is it a published document? What is it?

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The document, as we received it,

2 Your Honour, I have to say, was confiscated by the Office of the

3 Prosecutor.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't want to hear this, and I have already told

5 you that you should not, in the presence of the witness, give details on

6 the provenance of the document. What I'm asking you is: This seems to be

7 a chapter or a part of a chapter of a book, and we have seen the rest of

8 the book or parts from the book. But you must state, confirm to us

9 whether this is so or not. You had even the frontispiece, the first page

10 of this book. This is what we would like you to state now.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a document entitled "The

12 history of the Bratunac Brigade," and it originates from the Bratunac

13 collection. Its ERN number, 0065842 to 00658505. I really don't know

14 whether this document was published. I do know in what manner we received

15 it. But I cannot say whether it was published or not.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Was it a diary? Was it a book? Was it a

17 pamphlet? What was it?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The document was compiled by the

19 Bratunac Brigade as part of its history.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Does it have an author or --

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The author is the Bratunac Brigade.

22 That's all it says.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's proceed.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you received ammunition and all other logistical

1 support from the command centre of the brigade in Bratunac; isn't that

2 correct?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Did you have ammunition, Mr. Filipovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where did you get it from?

7 A. I bought it.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt counsel, but

9 could we have a period in time that we're -- that Madam Vidovic is asking

10 the witness? Because yesterday he testified that it was only after the

11 fall that he joined the Bratunac Brigade. So if possible, we could have a

12 period.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think you're right.

14 Yes, Madam Vidovic. When you're asking the witness whether he --

15 or whether they received ammunition and all other logistical support from

16 the command centre of the brigade in Bratunac, which period of time are

17 you referring to?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll put the question as follows:

19 Q. From whom did you obtain ammunition during the summer and autumn

20 of 1992, and finally in December 1992?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you answer that question,

22 please, Mr. Filipovic.

23 A. I don't know from whom it came.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And then there was another question, and that was

25 whether you had ammunition. Did you have ammunition? And if you did,

1 when did you have ammunition? Which period of time? And are you

2 understanding "you" as being just you, or you as a member of a group which

3 all together become "you"?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You personally. Did you have ammunition? And if

6 so, you already told us that you did. When did you acquire it?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had bought hunting ammunition

8 earlier.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Earlier. What do you mean by "earlier"? Earlier

10 than when?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1991.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Does that satisfy your question? Let's

13 proceed, then.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will proceed. Thank you, Your

15 Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Filipovic, on the 14th of December, 1992, in Bjelovac and

17 Sikiric, as well as in the area of Voljevica and Zaluzje, there was fierce

18 fighting, wasn't there?

19 A. I know about Sikiric and Bjelovac. I don't know about Voljevica.

20 How can I know what kind of fighting was there in Voljevica when I wasn't

21 there?

22 Q. Can you then tell us about Bjelovac and Sikiric? Was there fierce

23 fighting?

24 A. Yes, there was a fierce attack.

25 Q. Was there any kind of response from the Serbian side?

1 A. Well, we had to defend ourselves, yes.

2 Q. What was the response?

3 A. People were firing from their houses. They had to defend

4 themselves.

5 Q. So was there just firing from houses or were there any other far

6 more dangerous weapons used?

7 A. Not where I was. We were cut off. Half of the village was cut

8 off.

9 Q. Mr. Filipovic, in your statement, you said that on the 14th of

10 December, the Serbian army from Bratunac came to help the local defence.

11 A. When it started getting dark, I saw them come. They came from

12 Bratunac.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. This was in fact a fierce counter-attack

14 by the Serbian forces in the entire area of Bjelovac, Sikiric, and further

15 afield, and it took place on the same day, the 14th of December, and went

16 on until the 17th of December, 1992?

17 A. No. There was no counter-attack in the evening. There was an

18 assault and then the fighting continued on the next day. But I wasn't

19 there any longer, so I can't talk about it.

20 Q. But it's true you were there on the 14th of December, 1992, in

21 Bjelovac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Filipovic, is it correct that during the counter-attack on

24 Bjelovac, all possible artillery weapons were used and especially the air

25 force?

1 A. I wasn't there.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I just -- my objection is that again

4 the word "counter-attack" is not something that the witness has agreed to,

5 so --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No. He has rejected it.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But Madam Vidovic still talks about it. So let's

9 proceed. It's not going to change anything, Ms. --

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Is it correct: You said that on the 14th of December, 1992, you

14 were in Bjelovac, weren't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that on that day, the Serb army attacked Bjelovac,

17 Jovanovici, Sikiric, and Loznicka Rijeka from the air, with the intention

18 of driving out the Muslims?

19 A. The Serbian army attacking Bjelovac and Sikiric? No.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I now ask that the video recording

21 of the attack on Bjelovac be played. This is video 3901, entitled "Video

22 on the attack on Bjelovac, Bratunac," disclosed by the Prosecution, and on

23 the original video it begins with minute 33, and the Defence has not

24 edited this video in any way. The time shown is the time on the original

25 recording, except that we added a translation. If there is any objection

1 to the translation, I think it is absolutely correct, but if there is an

2 objection, I ask that it be taken as a draft translation and it can be

3 checked afterwards. This is the video as we received it. Could you

4 please play video number 1.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll need to approach it as we did

6 yesterday, of course with the caveat that the translation itself is not

7 testimony of the truth of the contents of what it says, anyway, contents

8 of the ... Yeah. And again, Madam Vidovic, please don't state where this

9 document came from, where you obtained it from.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the sound be

12 played also?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You're asking me? I will have to go back to the

14 technicians, who are on my right. Wait, Madam Vidovic. Usually they

15 solve the problem. They are very capable, very capable people.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone was not switched on, so the

18 interpreter didn't catch what the counsel said.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, you need to repeat what you said,

20 because your microphone was switched off and the interpreters couldn't

21 follow.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we checked this with

23 the technicians beforehand, and it was in good order. It's very important

24 for us that this video be shown.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be shown. Don't worry. It's not the end of

1 the world. These things happen. I've passed through this a hundred

2 times. And at the end of the day, at least in 99 cases, it was solved.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you have seen the footage, haven't you? Do you

6 recognise the area? Don't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you able to hear the comment being made? Did you see the

9 planes firing, how well they were targeting?

10 A. Can you understand what sort of an attack this was?

11 Q. What exactly do you mean by that?

12 A. Well, you assume that we should have just lain down and died, that

13 we should have all been killed, I expect.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please, I don't think

15 it's appropriate for the witness to be making these comments. Please

16 answer my question, because my question was entirely different.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Filipovic, I have to draw your attention

18 at this juncture that you have no right to reply to Madam Vidovic when she

19 is putting questions to you in the way that you have replied. She has

20 asked you a very legitimate question, which has been going on now for

21 quite some time.

22 First she asked you whether you recall that on that day, the

23 Serbian air force, or the army, through the Serbian plane, did intervene

24 in the conflict, and you said no. And in fact, you showed that you were

25 absolutely surprised, even at this being suggested to you. Now you have

1 been shown a film in which it is being suggested to you that you should

2 have been able to see aircraft, military aircraft, taking apart -- taking

3 part in an attack or whatever, and you're being asked questions in

4 relation to what you have seen. And the first question was whether you

5 recognise the area, and you said: "Yes, I recognise the area." The next

6 question was in relation to the aircraft, and instead of explaining,

7 you're just trying to counter Madam Vidovic in a way which is not

8 legitimate and which I will not allow.

9 So I invite you, please, to answer the question, and nothing but

10 the question, in accordance with the oath that you took yesterday.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, the question was: Is it not true that there were

13 aircraft targeting this area?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now, please, place this

16 document on the ELMO. These are stills taken from the video. Can we

17 please have these photographs placed on the ELMO.

18 Q. Witness, can you please look at these photographs. This specific

19 photograph shows a plane, and you can see the time: 9.26. The date is

20 14th of December, 1992. In relation to that, my question is the

21 following: Is it not true that the bombardment began at 9.26, at the

22 latest?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I move that this photograph and this

25 whole portion of the video be moved into evidence and assigned two

1 numbers. We do have other videos to show, and it may be convenient that

2 all these -- Your Honours, for the time being, I move that this photograph

3 be assigned a number as a Defence exhibit. I will move on with this

4 video. We have several minutes of it left.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So this still from the video that was

6 shown to the witness and which will be, according to the declaration just

7 made by Madam Vidovic, tendered into evidence at a later stage, this still

8 is being marked -- admitted and marked as Defence Exhibit D107.

9 When you say 9.26, is it 9.26 in the morning? I mean, it's

10 obvious that it is, but I want a declaration from you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, in the morning.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes. 108, sorry. Not 107; 108. 108.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, I have one more question in relation to this. You heard

15 a comment being made by a voice in this footage, saying: "You don't know

16 who is fighting whom." Is it not true, Mr. Filipovic, that in Bjelovac,

17 on that day, there was chaos? Both Serbs and Muslims were engaged in

18 hand-to-hand combat; is that not correct?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now play the video, the video

22 from the same spot. The original -- I'm trying to assist my colleagues

23 from the OTP. The time is 42:10.

24 [Videotape played]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, Ms. Vidovic, let me ask the

1 witness a question.

2 We've just seen some houses, very distinctly. Are you familiar

3 with those houses? Would you recognise the place where the camera is

4 shooting, where the filming is taking place from?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Where would that be?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Across the way from Bjelovac, at

8 Grabovica.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically what we are seeing, then, is the camera

10 is looking in the direction of Bjelovac?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 Yes, Madam Vidovic, please.

14 [Videotape played]

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it finished? But it has gone -- no. It's gone

17 back to 10:32, 10:32, which is -- let's -- I think they will find .... All

18 right. Okay. Yes.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Filipovic, did you hear the comments being made by these

22 people?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. A voice said: "This was not on fire until a short while ago," and

25 another voice replied: "There was a plane that dropped about ten bombs."

1 A. Yes, but who does he mean? It wasn't burning until a short while

2 ago. Maybe the house caught fire. You know, when a bomb is dropped on a

3 house, you know what it's like. It starts burning.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. We can continue.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you hear the comment being made by a male voice: "Oh, yes.

8 Oh, yes. It's all them in the houses now." "Them" means Muslims, doesn't

9 it?

10 A. I don't know. I'm not sure who they mean by "them."

11 Q. Mr. Filipovic, is it not correct that there are comments being

12 made here to the effect that a plane hit the houses and a truck?

13 A. Yes. But the house was not specified.

14 Q. Yes, not specified, but a house?

15 A. Yes. They said a house. But they didn't say that it was hit by a

16 plane.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can continue now.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Here houses in Loznicka Rijeka were mentioned, weren't they?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Filipovic, is it not true that this damage could have been

24 caused by a plane bombing?

25 A. No.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We will continue with one piece of

2 video.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you have seen the footage. Did you notice a voice

6 saying: "Yes, they will be shelling it." And then there was a comment

7 made: "Yes, they've shelled it now."

8 A. These were comments coming from the other side.

9 Q. What do you mean by "the other side"?

10 A. You mean the child's voice?

11 Q. Yes. But the comments where to this effect, do you not remember

12 that?

13 A. Yes, that's true.

14 Q. Another question related to this portion of the footage: It was

15 said that they were mixed. Is it not correct - let me ask you again -

16 that there was hand-to-hand combat in the area and that everything was

17 mixed up?

18 A. No.

19 Q. I will now show you two photographs from the same video. This is

20 for the sake -- for the benefit of the Chamber and the OTP. Can you

21 please show the witness these photographs. These photographs are stills

22 from the same video footage.

23 Witness, can you please look at the time, the time recorded on the

24 tape, and look at this photograph. You can see a bomb, a plane dropping a

25 bomb.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You can see the time, 15:20, can you not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Then we see the next photograph. The time is 15:21?

5 A. Yes, indeed.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you want to tender these in evidence?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So the photo with the biplane dropping a bomb, or

9 more than one bomb, will be Defence Exhibit D109. The document showing a

10 house burning will be D110.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I will put a question in connection with this.

13 You've just seen the second photograph, on which, at 9.26, a plane is

14 shown. Now you see the time here, 15:20. Isn't it correct that this

15 bombing lasted all day and that you must have seen it?

16 A. It didn't go on all day.

17 Q. Well, for how long did it go on for, Mr. Filipovic?

18 A. I couldn't say.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because now it's already past the hour

20 that you mentioned. How much -- I'm not stopping, you but how much more

21 time do you require?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't have a lot, Your Honour.

23 Maybe about ten minutes or 15.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You because that basically would bring us to

25 the break, which basically means that your new witness could be here for a

1 maximum of 45 minutes. So in the meantime, think about what your

2 preference is, whether you want to start him off today or whether you

3 prefer to postpone everything until Monday. It's up to you. I mean, I'm

4 not going to interfere. I'm just trying to organise the rest of the

5 sitting.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Think about it and let me know later.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, my initial reaction is, I understand there

9 will be some re-examination, so --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I am saying. I mean, basically we're

11 talking of past the break.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: 45 minutes at the most.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, as far as the Prosecution is concerned, we're

15 ready to go. I mean, I've got my notes ready. However, the man has been

16 sitting here for quite some time and --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Give him a coffee and decide whether he is going to

18 stay here a little bit longer. Make sure he is made to feel comfortable.

19 That's all. Because for these witnesses sitting in one room, a small

20 room, for long hours, it's frustrating. It's --

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I know. That's my point, if Your Honours please.

22 If we continue, then we have the break, then we have some re-examination,

23 and then we're left --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. We will have the re-examination before the

25 break.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I thought.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. Thank you.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's not a problem. I don't have

5 that many questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So basically you have 45 minutes.

7 But since I told you earlier on, it's up to you whether you want to start

8 him off for just 45 minutes today or not. I mean, it's up to you. But

9 think about it and let us know when we get to the break. And if you

10 decide that you should start on Monday with this witness, then you can in

11 the meantime take action, send a message, get him going, and then tell us

12 later. All right.

13 Yes, Madam Vidovic. Sorry for having interrupted you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I wanted to ask you, Mr. Filipovic, whether this bombing and

16 shelling could have caused damage to people and property in Bjelovac on

17 the 14th of December, 1992.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Filipovic, did I understand you properly yesterday when you

20 said that you didn't have a uniform?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you have a uniform?

23 A. No.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask for a very brief

25 video to be played, video number 4.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Again we have the sound problem. I am not

2 hearing any sound.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe just one scene is

4 sufficient.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Filipovic, do you agree that this is you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you agree that on the 14th of December, 1992, you were wearing

10 a uniform?

11 A. Madam, this is the 15th of December.

12 Q. Very well, Mr. Filipovic. Do you agree that on the 15th of

13 December you were wearing a uniform?

14 A. I left my house almost naked. I just took a black leather jacket.

15 I don't know who gave this to me. I had to put something on.

16 Q. But, Mr. Filipovic, you told us that throughout this period, you

17 did not wear a uniform, didn't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Very well. I'll move on.

20 Mr. Filipovic, it's true that your wife, children, and mother were

21 not killed on that day, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Your father was killed on that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. He was killed in combat, as a fighter, wasn't he?

1 A. In the yard of his house.

2 Q. Was he killed in combat?

3 A. He was killed in the yard of his house.

4 Q. But I'm asking you: Was he fighting?

5 A. I don't know.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I ask the usher -- but before that,

7 I move that the parts of the videos we have shown be assigned exhibit

8 numbers.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: This one and the previous one are not the same

10 video; no? They are different? This video clip that we have seen now and

11 the previous one --

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The first three clips are on one

13 videotape, and the other is on another videotape. So I ask that the first

14 three be given one exhibit number, and the last one another exhibit

15 number.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So the three video clips contained in the same tape,

17 dealing with the attack, air attack, in the vicinity of Bjelovac is being

18 assigned Defence Exhibit number D111. The other video we have just seen,

19 which depicts the witness being interviewed is being assigned the Defence

20 Exhibit number D112.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May the witness be shown D87. This

22 is a list of combatants of the 1st Bratunac Light Brigade, killed from the

23 18th of April 1992 until the 25th of September, 1995, page 00661857.

24 Q. Would you please look under number 185, please. The name here is

25 Filipovic. That's on page 1. And please look at number 185. Filipovic

1 Milisava Dragoljub. Is that your father?

2 A. Yes. Killed on the 14th of December, 1992, in combat defence.

3 Q. Is this correct?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you don't know, say "I don't know,"

5 Mr. Filipovic. And if you know, tell us that.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was killed in the yard, in front

7 of the front door. If that's combat, he was -- then he was killed in

8 defence.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Very well. Would you look at number 184. Is this your brother,

11 Filipovic, Dragoljub and Dragan?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On the 14th of December, was he fighting? Was he a combatant, and

14 was he killed as such?

15 A. He was there. Whether he managed to fight or not, I don't know.

16 Q. But was he a member of that unit in Bjelovac?

17 A. He was in Bjelovac.

18 Q. But was he a member of the unit in Bjelovac?

19 A. He was a member of the village guard. He came from time to time,

20 because he worked in Bratunac.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. This document already

23 has an exhibit number.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Filipovic, I will put a few questions to you about how

25 your wife was taken prisoner and about your efforts to learn something

1 about this.

2 In your statement to the Prosecutor in the year 2000, you said

3 that you had heard a conversation between Milos Okanovic and a person whom

4 you say is Naser Oric. I will give you the statement, if you need it, but

5 I will remind you now that on that occasion you said: "Milos interrupted

6 the radio connection and said Naser, You should be ashamed of yourself.

7 What kind of a commander are you when you're holding women and children

8 hostage? Naser replied, Are you the person from Serbia who's catching our

9 frequency? Naser then said, Nothing will happen to them."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You signed that statement, didn't you?

14 A. Yes, I suppose I did.

15 Q. Yesterday, you said something quite different. You said: "You've

16 imprisoned" -- or rather, you said that Okanovic said: "You've imprisoned

17 a six-month-old baby. Aren't you ashamed of yourselves?" And he

18 replied: "Whoever is on the front line is a soldier, in my view."

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Mr. Filipovic, when you were making your statement four years ago,

21 your memory of these events was fresher, wasn't it?

22 A. That's something I will never be able to erase from my memory.

23 Q. Is it correct that four years ago your memory was fresher?

24 A. It's the same.

25 Q. Are you aware of the fact that what you say now differs from what

1 you said four years ago?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Four years ago, you said that this person Naser replied: "Nothing

4 will happen to them."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yesterday you said he replied: "Whoever is at the front line is a

7 soldier, in my view."

8 A. More than one thing was said. More than one thing was said.

9 Q. What is the truth, Mr. Filipovic?

10 A. It's all true.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not contradictory or mutually exclusive, Madam

12 Vidovic. The two statements can coexist without any problems at all.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll put it like this:

14 Q. Mr. Filipovic, four years ago, you didn't say that he

15 said: "Whoever is at the front line is a soldier, in my view." Now you

16 were simply trying to represent Oric in a worse light; isn't that true?

17 A. No. What I said is correct.

18 Q. Mr. Filipovic, nothing bad happened to your wife and children when

19 they were taken prisoner; isn't that correct?

20 A. I don't know. Why was I indicted? Why did I spend a month in

21 prison, madam?

22 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I'm asking you about when your wife was taken

23 prisoner. I'll put it like this: After your wife returned, you talked to

24 her about the time she spent in prison, didn't you?

25 A. No.

1 Q. She must have told you that she was not held in the town of

2 Srebrenica at all but in Salocusa [phoen]; isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. She also told you she wasn't kept in a prison, didn't she?

5 A. No, she wasn't.

6 Q. She also told you that no one mistreated her, intimidated her, or

7 did anything bad to her; isn't that so?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yesterday you didn't mention any of these facts, did you?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. Now let's go back to Mr. Milos Okanovic. It's true, isn't it,

12 that he was a ham radio operator and not a member of the Army of

13 Republika Srpska?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you went to see him because you knew that he had contacts with

16 other ham radio operators, including Muslim ham radio operators in

17 Srebrenica?

18 A. Well, I'd been to see him before. I knew him from before.

19 Q. Did you know that he had contacts with other ham radio operators

20 in Srebrenica?

21 A. On the whole territory of the former Yugoslavia.

22 Q. Correct. Yes. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that

23 Mr. Naser Sulejmanovic was a well-known ham radio operator from

24 Srebrenica?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Naser Sulejmanovic was in fact a person who sent ham radio reports

2 from Srebrenica to the media in Sarajevo, and even to the foreign media,

3 such as the BBC, CNN, and so on. Milos Okanovic knew this, didn't he?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. I'll ask you something else now. In the conversation you quoted,

6 this person called Naser certainly didn't introduce himself and say: "I

7 am the commander of the Srebrenica forces, Naser Oric," did he?

8 A. No, he didn't.

9 Q. In answer to two questions by the Prosecutor as to whether you

10 knew or had met Mr. Oric, and whether you could recognise his voice,

11 yesterday you replied: "I had occasion to meet Naser Oric. I repaired

12 his car on several occasions in 1991. I was friends with his father. We

13 exchanged business deals."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Filipovic, in your statement to the Prosecutor, you said --

16 let me just say that you said quite decisively that you repaired that car

17 for him on several occasions in 1990.

18 A. Yes, I think it was in 1990.

19 Q. Very well. In your statement, you said that you had completed the

20 secondary civil engineering school.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You're not a car mechanic?

23 A. I did work as one for three years, and I do have a diploma, and I

24 did work for three years with a man who repaired cars.

25 Q. You never had a car mechanic's shop. You work in the Sase mine,

1 and you did quite a different kind of job, didn't you?

2 A. Yes. But in the afternoons I worked at home, or rather, I worked

3 at that car mechanic's shop.

4 Q. Thank you. It's true that Mr. Oric's father was a highly

5 qualified mechanic who repaired all types of vehicles, and you know this,

6 don't you?

7 A. Yes, especially diesel engines.

8 Q. Mr. Filipovic, there was really no need for Mr. Oric to pay for

9 the maintenance of his vehicle, to pay anyone else.

10 A. He didn't pay. He would come together with his father, and we did

11 some work for him on two or three occasions.

12 Q. Mr. Filipovic, in fact, you never met Naser Oric in your life, or

13 spoke to him, and that is the truth.

14 A. No, it's not the truth.

15 Q. Do you know, Mr. Filipovic, since you say that you know Mr. Oric,

16 that from 1998 [as interpreted] he lived and worked in Serbia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Filipovic, do you know that, in actual fact --

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Correction in the transcript. From

20 1988. That's right.

21 Q. Mr. Filipovic, do you know that Mr. Oric spent the entire year

22 1990 carrying out special tasks in Kosovo and was only back in Belgrade as

23 late as the 5th of August, 1991?

24 A. Yes, but he did come over.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm referring here

1 to -- he went back to Sarajevo, Mr. Filipovic?

2 A. No, he didn't go back anywhere, but he came to Srebrenica a couple

3 of times.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then, Your Honours, I will refer to

5 paragraph 3 of the OTP's indictment against the accused Naser Oric. I'm

6 not sure if it's necessary to show the witness this portion. I don't

7 think there's any need to do that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You can put the question. Yes, Ms. Richardson.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't think showing Mr. Filipovic

10 our indictment is -- it would be helpful at all. And in fact --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Put the question to the witness. I don't think he

12 needs to see --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I'll ask the question.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... which part of

15 the indictment are you ...

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Sir, this is paragraph 3, Naser Oric, an ex-policeman.

18 Mr. Filipovic, it is true, isn't it, that in 1990, Oric -- I think

19 probably the best thing for me would be to begin.

20 It is true, isn't it, Mr. Filipovic, that in 1988, he had

21 completed a six-month course in Zemun. He did an internship at the Savski

22 Venac in Belgrade as a member of the police unit for special tasks --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the witness the official recorder, historian of

24 Naser Oric? Why are you asking the witness these questions?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. No. The witness said he knew

1 Naser Oric and that he was friends with his father. And that's why I'm

2 asking this question: Is it not true that he spent the entire year of

3 1990 in Kosovo?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already told you, return to Serbia --

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already answered that question and he also told

7 you that he used to return to Srebrenica on several occasions.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Filipovic, in actual fact, you made up your meetings with

10 Mr. Oric in order to find a reason why his voice was familiar to you?

11 A. No. He gave my former boss 50 pieces of ammunition from the army

12 on one occasion.

13 Q. Mr. Filipovic, can I ask you this question: Did you ever listen

14 to any voices in radio communication?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it not true that this voice is distorted to a high degree in

17 radio communication?

18 A. No. It depends on the range and the distance.

19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Filipovic. I'll move on to a different

20 topic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is well beyond the six minutes that you said.

22 Basically you have disrupted all that I had mentioned earlier. You are

23 not -- but I'm -- anyway, are you understanding what I'm saying? Are you

24 receiving interpretation?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I will just

2 ask another question, one more.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ask as many questions as you like. I told you

4 straight and plain before that I will not be stopping you, because this is

5 an important witness. And you're touching on matters that are important.

6 But you should not have given us an indication that you were going to

7 conclude in six minutes, leading me into believing that we could conclude

8 the re-examination and any questions that we could have here before the

9 break and then we would have 45 minutes for the next witness. Because

10 obviously you're not even going to finish by the break.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have the break and we will continue after the

13 break. In the meantime, I think you decide what you want to do with the

14 next witness. But if you think you're going to send him back to the

15 hotel, I would ask that before we go for the break, we will escort this

16 witness out, we will bring in the other witness, and I will apologise to

17 him and explain to him what has happened.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, may I indicate this: I'll

21 go back and I'll say to this witness -- I'll ask that they take him back

22 to the hotel.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not enough, Mr. Di Fazio. I have been

24 brought up in another -- in a different legal cultural. We face the

25 witness and we explain to him. But I would like first that this witness

1 be escorted out. I don't want --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours feel that absolutely necessary,

3 with respect to --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. Definitely.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So please, Madam Usher, you first escort this

7 witness to wherever you're keeping him, and then we'll see him again after

8 the break. And after having done that, please bring in the other witness

9 and I will explain to him what is happening. Yes.

10 Unless we decide, unless we decide to go on for a little while and

11 finish with this witness.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: That would be ideal. And if Your Honours please,

13 with all respect, I can explain the situation to the witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I know you can, Mr. Di Fazio. I appreciate it. But

15 I don't think it's your fault, and we are responsible for the Trial

16 Chamber and the trial, and therefore it's our responsibility to address

17 the witness.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: As Your Honours please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: At least that's how I have been --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, certainly.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Now if you want, we can do away with the break, if

23 we have the concurrence of everyone, provided I have the word of everyone

24 that we will finish in ten minutes. This witness does not have any

25 protective measures, does he?

1 MR. DI FAZIO: No.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Please sit down, Mr. Nikolic. Thank you. I am

4 speaking in English, but I want a confirmation from you that what I am

5 saying is being translated to you in your own language.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So I should have said "good afternoon" to you, but

8 it's now evening. So I say good evening to you, Mr. Nikolic, and welcome

9 to this Tribunal. I know that you have been here in The Hague already a

10 few days.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that you may have been given the indication

13 before that possibly we would have been able to start with your testimony

14 and finish with your testimony today, enabling you then to go back home

15 for the weekend. But unfortunately, things did not turn out as we wished

16 them to. The previous witness has taken much longer to finish his

17 testimony, and we haven't finished with him as yet, and the one before him

18 also took more than what we had anticipated. These were important

19 witnesses. We couldn't reduce the time. And you are also an important

20 witness, and we want to make sure that you are relaxed and not frustrated

21 and angry with us before you start your testimony.

22 So today we still have to continue with the other witness, and we

23 will not be able to start with your testimony. I am sorry this had to be

24 like this. It was not our intention. It was certainly not our desire to

25 have it this way. I apologise to you on behalf of the Trial Chamber. And

1 I promise you that we will do our utmost to make your weekend here as

2 relaxing and enjoyable as possible, and that on Monday, please God, we

3 will start with your testimony and do our utmost to finish.

4 Do you accept our apology?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for your sense of responsibility, and

7 also for having understood, for your understanding. I'm pretty sure you

8 understand that this is not due to the fault of anyone; it's just -- these

9 things happen, and when they happen, they end up creating problems.

10 So you will be escorted now by our usher and you will be taken

11 back to the hotel and you will be looked after in the course of the

12 weekend. And make sure that if you have any wish or any desire to make

13 your rest here in The Hague over the weekend easy and relaxing, to tell so

14 the officials, the persons that will be taking care of you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Have a nice evening, and also a nice weekend.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So I suggest now it's not even fair any further, any

19 more, to suggest that we proceed. I think we have a break. Or do you

20 prefer to proceed and finish? How much more time do you think you have?

21 Take all time you require.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think seven or eight minutes. Your

23 Honours, my apologies. Maybe ten minutes. But I get interrupted all the

24 time. But there's no witness.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Richardson, how much time do you require?

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, no more than ten minutes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So that makes it already roughly 20. You have some

3 questions, Judge Eser. So we're talking about 20, 25 minutes. So we'll

4 have a 15-minute break,, 15-minute break is being suggested to me. Is

5 that agreeable to everyone, the other interpreters and the technicians?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The technician needs 20? Yes. All

8 right. We'll have it 20. I'm afraid I can't help more than that. So we

9 will reconvene in 20 minutes. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 5.55 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

12 MR. JONES: Your Honour, while there's a moment free, I might

13 mention something which I was otherwise going to mention at the end of the

14 hearing. There's an objection today from the Prosecution concerning --

15 here comes the witness. I'll deal with it afterwards. It need only

16 detain us only two minutes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll hear the submission after the witness is

18 finished. If it's not --

19 MR. JONES: That's fine. It was just to fill in the time.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Come in, and let's proceed.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. One moment until he puts the

23 earphones on.

24 Are you receiving interpretation, Mr. Filipovic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Filipovic, in your testimony of yesterday, you said you had

4 left Bjelovac and then returned to Bjelovac, and in your statement of

5 2000, you said about ten days after the Serbs retook Bjelovac. Yesterday,

6 however, you said in February. Is this correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The truth is, is it not, that around Bjelovac, Sikiric, and on

9 that entire area, while you were absent, fierce fighting was going on? Do

10 you know about this?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it correct that the Serbs retook this area through combat

13 activities?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Filipovic, that these combat activities could

16 have been one of the causes of the damage to the houses in this area?

17 A. It's possible.

18 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that you were liable for military

19 service and that you were a conscript in the Army of Republika Srpska for

20 about six months, from late 1993 and for a part of 1994. Did I understand

21 you correctly?

22 A. I'm not sure about the dates, but yes, I was a member.

23 Q. And when? In what period of time?

24 A. I can't be precise.

25 Q. Was it in 1994?

1 A. In 1994, on the 14th of February, that's when I didn't want to be

2 a member of the army anymore, but I was until then.

3 Q. That's correct, isn't it? So you say that as of the 14th of

4 February, you were no longer a member of the army?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You're saying that you were not in the army in 1995?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the usher to put on the

9 ELMO a document of the Bratunac Brigade, 01319944, entitled "List of

10 advance salaries paid for February 1994 [as interpreted], military post

11 7042." And would you turn the page, Mr. Filipovic, please. It ends with

12 number 958, because it's an excerpt from a document. And do you see that

13 it says here "Bjelovac barracks"? Would you please look at number 3. It

14 says: "Filipovic Dragoljuba Slavoljub."

15 Q. Is this your name?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you please look -- this is in the Bjelovac barracks - next

18 to your name is says "VO," which means military conscript, and there is a

19 number.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sir, is not that the name of your military booklet?

22 A. I don't know. It may be, but I don't know it by heart.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am speaking of

24 February 1995, and the document bears the date February 1995. May this be

25 corrected in the transcript. I wasn't referring to February 1994.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. All throughout, I thought you were referring

2 to February 1994, because that's what I heard before. But now that you're

3 saying that you're referring to February 1995, I want to make sure that

4 the witness has understood that these documents refer to February 1995 and

5 not to February 1994.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Have you understood, Witness?

8 A. Well, as I told you, I wasn't sure about the date when I was a

9 member of the military.

10 Q. I will put the question as follows: I asked you whether in 1995

11 you were a member of the Army of Republika Srpska. Your answer was no.

12 Is this correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. You have now before you a list of advance salaries paid for

15 February 1995, military post 7042. Please look at these columns. There's

16 the last name, the first name, a rank, then there is a code number and the

17 number of a military booklet.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now please look at page 2, where it says "Bjelovac barracks."

20 A. That's the school.

21 Q. Very well. But is this the number of your military booklet?

22 A. Probably it is.

23 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you were not telling the truth, then, when you said

24 that after February 1994 you were not a member.

25 A. Well, I kept telling you I wasn't sure.

1 Q. Where were you in July 1995, Mr. Filipovic?

2 A. Well, I can show that with documents.

3 Q. There's no need to do that. Just answer my question.

4 A. I was in the cooperative in Bratunac. I was a tractor driver.

5 Q. You were not a military conscript?

6 A. No, I wasn't.

7 Q. Thank you, sir.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

9 I move that this document be given an exhibit number.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And this will be, Gerold, number D113?

11 This will be Defence Exhibit D113.

12 Yes. Is there re-examination, Ms. Richardson?

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And if there is, could you please keep it to the

15 bare minimum. Thank you.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour.

17 Re-examined by Ms. Richardson:

18 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you were shown videos of planes flying overhead,

19 and could you tell us where -- if you recall those videos, the area that

20 the planes were flying over. Could you tell us: Was this the wider area

21 of Bjelovac or was -- or could you tell whether it was specifically over

22 your village -- over your hamlet, I think Loznica?

23 A. Yes, it was around Bjelovac. About Loznica, that is.

24 Q. And the attack started at 5.30 in the morning?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And when the attack started and you ran outside, were you able to

2 see any planes flying overhead?

3 A. No. The planes arrived much later, at about 10.00, or maybe 9.30.

4 Q. Okay. Now, did you hear the planes or were you able to see them

5 from where you were?

6 A. Not from my house. Not from the shelter. I was at home.

7 Q. Okay. So how do you know that there were planes flying over

8 around 10.00 or 9.30? Was that from the photographs you were shown or --

9 MR. JONES: Sorry. That's not a fair question at all. That's --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree. Yes. Just restrict your question to the

11 first part of it, please.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: I will, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: How can you tell that the planes arrived at 9.30 or

14 10.00, Mr. Filipovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the video. That day seemed

16 very short to me, as short as an hour. I'm unable to orient myself in

17 time with respect to that day, but I saw this on the video.

18 MR. JONES: I note that the witness was prompted to give that

19 answer.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but he said it. He's given that answer.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, and I certainly take offence to what

22 counsel just tried to --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, Ms. Richardson.

24 MS. RICHARDSON:

25 Q. Were you -- when you were hiding in -- I believe you mentioned

1 there were two homes that you were hiding in during the attack. Were you

2 able to hear planes flying over or planes dropping bombs?

3 A. I could only hear them.

4 Q. And now, those planes -- what time did you -- were you able to see

5 soldiers on the ground during the period --

6 MR. JONES: Sorry, Your Honour. This raises an issue which I was

7 going to raise earlier. We realise -- first of all, the Prosecution

8 objected to us using the word "soldiers." It's clear now that there may

9 be a big interpretation problem between soldiers, "vojnici"; fighters,

10 "borci." It may be this has run right through the whole trial to date.

11 But that's why we object to questions saying whether it's civilians or

12 soldiers. The Prosecution should always only ask the question: Who did

13 you see? What were they wearing. And it's for Your Honours to decide

14 whether they were soldiers or not. They may be persons with some uniform,

15 they may be fighters. Soldiers implies being members of an army, which is

16 a value judgement, in our submission.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, may I respond. My question is in

18 direct response to what the Defence stated, that there was hand-to-hand

19 combat on the ground between two sides and that --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But that has been denied, has been rejected by

21 the --

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm just seeking to clarify that he

23 was not able to see Serb soldiers from where he was.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see any persons fighting in any case,

25 irrespective of whether they were wearing uniform or not?

1 Mr. Filipovic, look at me, please. You have told us that you saw

2 Serb villagers shooting from their houses. That you have told us already.

3 Apart from that -- apart from that, in the surroundings of your village,

4 could you see anyone engaged in fighting?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And who did you see, or what did you see? Who was

7 fighting?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people were in the shelters.

9 You could see them raise their heads from the shelter, fire, and then duck

10 again. And people were killed around their houses. Then they took

11 shelter.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And they were --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then the fighting wasn't as

14 fierce any more.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And they were fighting and they were shooting

16 against whom?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were shooting at the attackers.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And who were the attackers, apart from the fact that

19 you have already told us that they were Muslims? Who were they? Were

20 they civilians? Were they wearing uniforms?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only saw one of them with a

22 uniform on with my own eyes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from these Muslim attackers, did you see any

24 other persons who would not be Muslims who were engaged in direct fighting

25 with those Muslims attackers?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move from there.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. And you stated, Mr. Filipovic, testified that the attack lasted

5 all day; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when was the first time you saw Serb soldiers that day?

8 A. Just before dark, when I set out towards Serbia.

9 Q. So you didn't see them at 5.30 in the morning, and you didn't see

10 them as you were making your way to the various houses?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, you testified on direct that you had been mobilised in 1992;

13 correct?

14 A. We received call-up notes. Whether it was in April or May, but we

15 remained at home. We didn't go anywhere. We didn't respond to those

16 call-up notes.

17 Q. So you simply continued to be a member of the village guard, in

18 your mind, and not a soldier serving with the Serb army?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, you were shown Exhibit -- Defence Exhibit 101. You were

21 shown a number of exhibits. Let me just take you back to a particular one

22 where the document shown to you was from the 1st Platoon, and Defence

23 asked if you knew someone by the name of Milovanovic Stojadin. Was that

24 the name of the person? Do you recall? Do you know that person?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already told us that he knows him.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm just -- I'm getting there.

4 Q. Now, with respect to what you were shown, indicating that this

5 person was a member of the 1st Platoon and that he had received an

6 automatic weapon in Belgrade -- sorry, that he works in Belgrade, but he

7 had received an automatic weapon, do you know anything personally about

8 that? Did you see him with this weapon?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And your name was not on this list that was shown to you; correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What type weapon did you have?

13 A. I had a hunting rifle.

14 Q. Now, with respect to -- and this is my final question, Your

15 Honour - with respect to your wife and children, Defence asked if anything

16 bad had happened to them. In your mind, did you consider the fact that

17 they had been --

18 MR. JONES: Sorry. I can tell already this is going to be an

19 extremely leading question. The Prosecution sometimes thinks that

20 re-examination is for leading questions.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't heard the question.

22 MR. JONES: She is about to make a suggestion of what might have

23 been in his mind. Why doesn't she simply ask --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. Let her make the question, and if

25 it's not a fair question I will stop her.

1 MR. JONES: She'll say: Did you consider the fact that they had

2 been detained, bad treatment, or something of that nature. Well, really.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, may I inquire?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll rephrase the question. In the interests of

6 time, I was trying to sum up, give a much broader question than I

7 intended.

8 Q. Your wife and children were taken prisoner following the attack or

9 during the attack in Bjelovac; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in fact, they were taken prisoner by the Bosnian Muslim army;

12 is that correct?

13 MR. JONES: Sorry. I really object to these questions. Taken

14 prisoner, first of all, isn't something within his knowledge. It implies

15 all sorts of things. One could say that they had been evacuated for their

16 safety. And these are loaded terms which are being used. But secondly,

17 the Bosnian Muslim army, the witness has said that he saw one person in

18 uniform that day. And so now she is asking this witness to assert that --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Rephrase your question.

20 MR. JONES: What did he see, what did he hear, that's what we're

21 interested in.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Please rephrase your question, Ms. Richardson.

23 MS. RICHARDSON:

24 Q. Mr. Filipovic, what happened to your wife and children on

25 December 14, 1992?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Did they remain in Bjelovac or -- where they resided

2 or did they disappear from there?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They disappeared from there, and my

4 mother together with them, not only my children and my wife.

5 MS. RICHARDSON:

6 Q. And who took them?

7 MR. JONES: He hadn't even seen it. We've covered this area.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: He hasn't said that they were taken. How come they

9 disappeared? Do you have an explanation for their disappearance?

10 Mr. Filipovic, do you have an explanation for their disappearance?

11 Did they leave the town of their own free will or not? How come that you

12 no longer found them in Bjelovac? They disappeared from Bjelovac? What

13 happened?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were taken away. They were

15 imprisoned, captured.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: By whom?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the Muslim forces.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see that happening or did you assume or come

19 to that conclusion, without seeing anyone doing that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see them being taken away.

21 What I thought at the time is that they were burnt alive in the house.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And later on they were exchanged; no?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was the exchange made with?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one informed me about the

1 exchange. I didn't know. I drove the water tanker from Dubovija

2 [phoen]. I was sitting in a cafe in Bratunac and then a man came over and

3 said: "They brought your mother, wife and children there. Momir

4 Nikolic." They were exchanged at Skelani. So Momir Nikolic was the one.

5 I don't know where they were exchanged from or why. That's what they

6 know.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But who brought them over? I mean, who surrendered

8 them back?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Momir Nikolic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Momir Nikolic is a Serb, isn't he?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He wasn't keeping them himself, was he?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He was in charge of the

14 exchange at Skelani, with the Muslim forces. He was the chief of security

15 of the Bratunac Brigade.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I mean, I should have become a dentist,

17 not a judge, because you have to extract. Yes, Ms. Richardson.

18 MS. RICHARDSON:

19 Q. Mr. Filipovic, did your wife tell you that she was exchanged?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. And thank you,

23 Ms. Richardson. Judge Brydensholt.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you saw the video, where you were wearing

1 something which seems to be a uniform, you told that that was something

2 you have got between the 14th and the 15th of December. That was how I

3 understood it. Could you explain a bit more about what kind of uniform

4 did you get, and where did you get it?

5 A. I was asleep when the attack began. I left my house with no socks

6 on or boots or any clothes, for that matter. The house where I spent the

7 entire day, I found a black jacket there and then I crossed over into

8 Serbia wearing the black jacket. I gave it to someone in Bratunac. It

9 was in December. But I see there was an olive-drab jacket, which is part

10 of a uniform that I wore at the time. I saw it in the footage. You can

11 see the white shirt underneath. You can see it clearly.

12 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Then I have another question. I understand

13 that your house was under construction, the new house, at the bank of the

14 Drina River. That house was a bit south of Bjelovac itself. You said at

15 some time, at a given time, that you were cut off. What do you mean with

16 that? Was it only your part of the village which was attacked, and was

17 the other part of Bjelovac still defended when you left?

18 A. Well, probably the house that was on fire was being defended. The

19 photograph that madam showed that was wrong, that's my house. And up to

20 that point, everything had been killed and there was resistance down

21 towards Bratunac. They didn't catch us there. There were only 150 metres

22 to go to the Drina River, and they approached us from the back. Between

23 50 and 150 from Sikiric, they didn't even have a hundred metres. Just

24 next to the road by the roadside. That's where they were waiting. And

25 they approached us from the back.

1 As far as the other half of Bjelovac, I have no idea, because as

2 far as I know, no people were killed in the other half of Bjelovac. We --

3 this side of the middle of town, we were the ones who were killed, in this

4 house that was on fire. It's a family home belonging to me, and there was

5 a ground floor that was totally new. A house was being built at the time.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

7 JUDGE ESER: Some of the questions which I had have already been

8 answered or asked and answered. I would a question with regard to the

9 videos, before I ask my question, put my question to the witness. I would

10 like to ask the Defence counsels: Is it known who had taken the videos

11 which have been shown here?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I think -- I think it will not be

14 proper to have this information given in the presence of the witness.

15 JUDGE ESER: Okay.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You will provide this information as soon as the

17 witness leaves the courtroom.

18 JUDGE ESER: I would just ask the witness: Did you -- had you

19 seen the videos before? The videos which we saw here, had they been new

20 to you or have you seen them before?

21 A. I saw them before.

22 JUDGE ESER: You saw them before. So you have been aware that

23 these videos exist?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That basically brings us to the end of your

1 testimony, Mr. Filipovic, which lasted more than we had anticipated. On

2 behalf of the Trial Chamber, and that's on my behalf and on behalf of

3 Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser, I would like to thank you for having

4 accepted to come over and give evidence, testimony, in this case against

5 Naser Oric. You will now be attended to this court, out of the courtroom

6 by Madam Usher, and you will receive all the assistance you require to

7 return to your home. Before you leave this courtroom, may I wish you a

8 safe journey back home, on behalf of everyone here.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll deal with these two matters. First, the

12 person, the name of the person or persons who shot the videos. We saw

13 two. So I don't know if we're talking of the same one. Probably not.

14 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the way it's explained

16 on the list that was forwarded to us when -- in connection with the

17 testimony of Ms. Racine Manas, we're about to hear her, she'll appear as a

18 witness, the note was that Witness Filipovic was the one who handed over

19 this video footage. That is also a conclusion based on his own testimony.

20 On his statement in 2000, he mentions that he handed over two videos to

21 the OTP.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't explain who shot -- who made the videos.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. And the explanation as to who,

24 the video was taken by a person from Serbia. The video, the way the

25 witness has explained in his statement, the video shows Bjelovac. It

1 shows houses ablaze. Milos Okanovic, a person that he referred to, which

2 means shot the video from his terrace at Grabovica. And that's what he

3 said in his testimony, or at least that's what I understood him to be

4 saying.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ESER: Is it known who the persons have been who -- the

7 voices which we heard are known?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] One of the voices belongs to Milos

9 Okanovic. That much is certain. He is commenting on the footage as he's

10 taking the footage. And this is the person referred to by the witness, by

11 Mr. Filipovic, today and yesterday. That's as much as I know, Your

12 Honours.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Jones, did you still want to raise the

14 other matter?

15 MR. JONES: Yes, I would, Your Honour, very briefly. But I do

16 think it's a terribly important issue. It's firstly a linguistic issue,

17 which is that we've heard that -- the term soldiers "vojnici," has been at

18 least on one occasion perhaps mistranslated and "borci" which refers to

19 fighters. For that reason, and because, as I said, the term "soldiers"

20 implies perhaps being a member of an army, it's a matter which I've

21 considered objecting to on occasions when the question has been put to

22 witnesses: Were these soldiers or civilians. Because it's far more

23 complex than that. And I mention the matter now firstly, as I say, as a

24 linguistic issue. Even the witness himself is careful to refer to

25 attackers today, "napadaci." I mention it because it may be a problem

1 running through the transcripts to date, that there might be that

2 translation problem. But also to, in a sense, give notice for future

3 objections that we do object to the Prosecution saying: Were these

4 civilians or soldiers? It oversimplifies matters. They should say: Who

5 did you see, what were they wearing? And that way by carefully seeing

6 what the witness saw, we can -- Your Honours can reach a conclusion

7 whether they're soldiers or not.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Point taken. Point taken. And we will

9 regulate accordingly.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, point taken with respect

11 to what Mr. Jones just mentioned. But I should also add and request the

12 same from the Defence, if a witness is testifying to a village guard and

13 it's been re-characterised as "fighter," I think it's just as bad as

14 saying the word "soldier." So I think both sides should be very careful

15 of whatever they --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll regulate the matter. Now that we know of your

17 concerns, we will regulate the matters.

18 MR. JONES: If it's the VRS, obviously we need to suggest that

19 people were members of the VRS. That's a different matter, obviously.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I take it that there is --

21 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would also like to

23 say the following: When we speak about documents which read fighters of

24 the Bratunac Brigade, fighters of the 1st Platoon, fighters, I really

25 can't say, fighters are members of the TO, Territorial Defence, for

1 example, I can't say "the TO guard" or anything like that. If I'm to

2 interpret the document at all.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I said -- I don't think this calls for an

4 exchange of -- we will use all the flexibility that there is available and

5 we will regulate the matter accordingly. I mean, if there is a serious

6 objection at any given point, we will give it due consideration and we

7 will decide whether it's fit and proper to use the noun "soldier"

8 or "soldiers" or whether it's more proper to use some other word. We'll

9 play it by the ear, according to the different circumstances that we will

10 be dealing with.

11 So we will adjourn now until Monday. Monday we are meeting in the

12 morning, we are sitting in the morning. I don't recall which courtroom.

13 I just want to wish you all a nice weekend. Thank you.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.52 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

16 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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