Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2666

1 Tuesday, 7 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning. Mr. Registrar, could you call the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Mr. Oric, I would like to know if you can receive interpretation

12 in your own language?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes,

14 yes, I can receive -- I do receive interpretation in my own language, and

15 I can follow the proceedings.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. If there are any problems at

17 any time, let me know. You may sit down.

18 Appearances for the Prosecution.

19 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm Patricia Sellers of

20 the Prosecution, with co-counsel Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and Ms. Donnica

21 Henry-Frijlink is our case manager.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, and good morning to you and your

23 team.

24 Appearances for Naser Oric.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. My name

Page 2667

1 is Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for

2 Mr. Naser Oric. With us are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and

3 our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam, and good morning to you and your

5 team.

6 Any preliminaries, or any follow-up to the matters that I raised

7 yesterday with regard to witnesses?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, if Your Honours please. I've prepared a

9 little working document which I see over there on the --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have it.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Can you just distribute it? Thank you. It's not

12 actually quite what it says because it doesn't go into early January.

13 I'll deal with that last entry later. Essentially, it's what I think is

14 going to happen between now and the end of the year, the Christmas break.

15 And it's a little less ambitious than the other schedules that we had, but

16 I think this is slightly more realistic.

17 The times that we have here are -- I've included both

18 examination-in-chief and cross-examination times. So when I -- when you

19 see the evidence of a particular witness, that's all of their evidence,

20 both examination-in-chief and cross-examination. So if we start today,

21 it's self-evident what we have today. If we finish at some point about

22 three-quarters of the way down today's track, then we can start with the

23 next witness, as you can see. And then tomorrow is self-evident; we're

24 not sitting. I'm told that that particular witness who may start today

25 and finish on Thursday is a reasonably substantial witness, not just a

Page 2668

1 very minor crime-base witness, if I can say that, and that's why I've --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You have allocated to him the entire day of

3 Tuesday -- Thursday.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thursday, essentially, yes.

5 Then Friday, I'm confident that we should complete that witness

6 safely, and then we enter the last week of Christmas -- before our

7 Christmas break. Monday, the 13th, we have the witness who's to be

8 recalled. I would suggest that we, no matter what the state of play is,

9 that he be interposed, if necessary. I would hope that it would not be

10 necessary, and I would have thought that we would have finished the

11 previous witness --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Two hours?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Do Your Honours think that's an overestimate?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if it is, it won't significantly affect this

16 schedule in any event.


18 MR. DI FAZIO: And then we could start with the -- that other

19 witness and finish him on the Tuesday. That would leave one last witness.

20 I've structured it that way to make sure that we don't have any witnesses

21 from the former Yugoslavia here on the Friday giving their evidence with

22 the risk that we may run into running into the break and then having to

23 call them back, which would be a real inconvenience for everyone.


25 MR. DI FAZIO: And then finally, finish the evidence on the

Page 2669

1 Friday, the last day of court, with Racine Manas, who is working here. So

2 even if we don't finish her evidence, and I would think we would, but even

3 if something untoward were to happen and we don't finish her, it's no

4 problem to call her back to complete her after the Christmas break.

5 So that's -- I don't know what Your Honours think of that, but I

6 think that's realistic.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems okay to me. I want feedback, if there is,

8 on the part of the Defence.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. I think that's all right, Your

10 Honour, because in the case of Witness Eric, we need to show some

11 documents to him which we need him to comment on, and these have to do

12 with what we saw on the video. This will take about an hour and a

13 quarter.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

15 Judge Brydensholt, do you ...


17 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser? Yes.

18 Yes.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: There's only one matter now and that remains the

20 opening, re-opening of the case, as I understand the the court sittings

21 recommence on Monday the 10th. Friday the 7th, the preceding Friday, is

22 the Orthodox Christmas, and of course that will affect all of our --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: But not all the witnesses are Orthodox, no?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: No. No, that is so. No, they're not, Your Honour

25 is correct. Most of them are, though. Most of the crime-base witnesses

Page 2670

1 are.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Most of them are, but there are witnesses that

3 aren't.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no -- they're mainly experts.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Are there any witnesses left that are based here in

6 The Hague; for example, the photographer? I don't know.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Just let me consult with my colleagues, if Your

8 Honours please.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, let's do it this way, because I've

11 been here long enough to know what we expect. If all the other Chambers

12 or Trial Chambers are not sitting on the 10th because of the problems that

13 the Orthodox Christmas poses to the transfer of witnesses, then of course

14 we will not try to be the only ones to sit. I mean, it doesn't make

15 sense. However, if there is a number of Trial Chambers sitting on the

16 10th of January, which I would expect there would be, then perhaps -- then

17 perhaps you could, between now and when we go into recess on the -- after

18 the sitting of the 17th, find out if you could bring someone else who is

19 not Orthodox, who hasn't got to come from ex-Yugoslavia and --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'll make inquiries, as you suggest.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, if you have problems, no one is going to

22 try and be difficult.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, Your Honour. Well, what I suggest is that we

24 make our inquiries -- what I suggest is that we make our inquiries, and

25 perhaps we can revisit this issue before we break up.

Page 2671












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Page 2672

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm told that there are two cases that day, on

2 the 10th. We could also sit in the afternoon, if necessary, which would

3 also give you more time to -- but anyway, see what -- because I also take

4 it that you also need your staff to have your holidays as well, like we

5 need. So I'm not trying to be difficult. Don't --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not actually that problem, if Your Honours

7 please. Members of the team will be back before this.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Even we are going to be back.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: It's a question of actually getting people here to

10 proof and continue. But I'll look into it, and if we revisit the issue

11 again before we break, that should fix it, I hope.


13 Yes, Mr. Jones.

14 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Just so that we can

15 also make best use of the break, we would be grateful to receive a list,

16 obviously, of the witnesses who will be coming in January as soon as

17 possible so we can prepare for them.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was coming precisely to that, and also to --

19 so that, I suppose, I don't need to repeat. You will look into that and

20 furnish the Defence and ourselves as well with the list of witnesses you

21 intend to bring over in January.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'll do that.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: As things are, and considering the momentum that we

24 have been keeping, which is exceptionally good, I must say, when do you

25 reckon you would finish your case?

Page 2673

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I haven't given that any --

2 I haven't prepared to address you on that. I can certainly do so. If you

3 want me to work out a time again, I can.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you, say, on the last day before we go into

5 recess, you give us a rough indication, I think that would be very useful

6 for everyone.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. We will prepare something for the Trial

8 Chamber. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Because there are some days in the end of January

10 and mid-March, when we will need to have a very short break, so more or

11 less we will need an indication from you, all right? And thank you for

12 all the good work you have been doing, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 Any other preliminary matters? None?

14 Usher, please, the witness.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Nikolic, and welcome back.

17 I hope you have had time to rest. This morning we are going to proceed

18 with your testimony and hopefully finish within the next two, three hours.

19 So relax, sit down. And may I just remind you that you are testifying,

20 you are giving evidence on the basis of the solemn declaration that you

21 entered yesterday, which is still valid today, in other words.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nikolic, if at any time there are problems with

24 interpretation, if you're not receiving interpretation in your language at

25 any time, please draw my attention immediately.

Page 2674

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So you had another 15 minutes, starting with the

3 video, if I remember well, Mr. Di Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'll only propose to show the first portion

5 of the video, because other witnesses will be able to comment on the

6 remainder. Thank you.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it will be shown without

10 sound, there is no need for the sound, and I'll just ask this witness to

11 comment on various scenes that are depicted in the video.

12 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

13 Q. Mr. Nikolic, I'm going to show you this video, and from time to

14 time I'll stop it, and I'll ask you to tell the Trial Chamber what the

15 video shows. Do you understand?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Well, let's just play it now.

18 [Videotape played]

19 A. This is the post office in Srebrenica. The police station.


21 Q. Is that the entrance that you were taken through into your custody

22 when you were first taken to Srebrenica, or were you taken in through

23 another entrance?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Continue.

Page 2675

1 A. Yes.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Do you recognise that place?

5 A. The police station. That's the entrance to the upper floor.

6 [Videotape played]


8 Q. What about that room? Do you know what that room is?

9 A. The duty room.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. It's on the right-hand side of the entrance to the police station.

12 Q. Continue.

13 [Videotape played]


15 Q. Do you know where those stairs lead to?

16 A. These stairs lead upstairs.

17 Q. I think that's -- thank you for that. Okay. Now, do you know

18 where that corridor is?

19 A. That's in the police station.

20 Q. Okay. Now, just look carefully there, is the cell in which you

21 were incarcerated with Kostadin, or Kojo, and the other man called Mica,

22 is the door to that cell visible there? Is it one of those four doors

23 that you can see, or is it elsewhere?

24 A. It's on the left.

25 Q. All right. So one of those two doors that you can see on the

Page 2676

1 left --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- is that the door to the cell that you were kept in when you

4 were first captured and taken to Srebrenica? Is that what you're saying?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Thank you. Continue.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. What's that place?

10 A. This is our cell where we were incarcerated.

11 Q. You testified yesterday that people were able to stick -- push

12 sticks in other instruments through the -- through the bars and hit you.

13 Are they the bars you were talking about?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Continue.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. There's that room with the blue walls. Do you know where that

19 room was, now that you're looking at it through the video?

20 A. I can't remember. I think this is in the old police station.

21 Q. Okay. It appears to be part of a lavatory there. Does that jog

22 your memory at all or not? If you're not sure, that's fine. Don't --

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. Okay. We'll continue.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 2677












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Page 2678

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, is this building abandoned now or

2 what?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know what the current status is now, but it

4 looks pretty abandoned --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It looks pretty abandoned there. But what's the

6 state of it now?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I simply don't know, if Your Honours please. I can

8 find out and let Your Honours know. Just pause there.

9 Q. What does that show?

10 A. This is the window, and there are doors to the left and to the

11 right.

12 Q. All right. If you kept walking down that corridor, would you come

13 down the front of the building or the back; do you know?

14 A. You'd have to go to the back.

15 Q. Okay. Keep going.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. Do you know which door that is?

19 A. The door to the old police station.

20 Q. And is that the door that you said that you were led through after

21 you had been captured?

22 A. This is the door on the ground floor.

23 Q. All right. Thank you. Continue.

24 [Videotape played]


Page 2679

1 Q. Do you recognise that building?

2 A. This is the old police station, the SUP, the stairs leading to the

3 upper floor.

4 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you were led, how you were

5 taken from one building to the other when you were transferred? Were you

6 escorted by policemen? How far away was the old police station to the

7 municipal building?

8 A. When they transferred us from the police station to the prison

9 between the court and the municipality, they escorted us from behind. The

10 distance is about 300 metres.

11 Q. And just remind the Trial Chamber, when did that transfer take

12 place in relation to the arrival of prisoners from Skelani? Can you hear

13 me? Can you hear me?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Mr. Di Fazio, there must be some problem,

16 because I looked into his eyes and I don't think he was following. Could

17 you repeat your question, please.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

19 Q. When were you transferred from the MUP -- sorry, the SUP building

20 to the municipality -- to the prison located behind the municipality

21 building? When was that in relation to the arrival of the prisoners from

22 Skelani?

23 A. It was right away then, because on the 16th and the 17th, when

24 they arrived within a day or two, they transferred us to the prison,

25 because it was very cramped there, it was two by two. And then they

Page 2680

1 transferred us to the prison.

2 Q. So the cell that we saw a few minutes ago with the bars in front

3 of it, for a period of time, a short period of time, there was you; Kojo,

4 or Kostadin; Mica; and the prisoners from Skelani all placed in that cell;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then you were all transferred.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Let's carry on.

10 [Videotape played]


12 Q. What entrance can we see there on the left?

13 A. To the old police station, on the left.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 [Videotape played]


17 Q. All right. Now, just on that particular shot that you can see

18 there, on the right-hand side, the extreme right-hand side, there's a

19 building you can just see with a red roof. What building is that?

20 A. That's the municipal assembly.

21 Q. And where was your second prison in relation to that building?

22 A. Between the court and the municipality.

23 Q. Thank you. Just continue.

24 [Videotape played]


Page 2681

1 Q. Now, that laneway, where did that lead to?

2 A. I think this is the municipality, and this is the prison where I

3 was incarcerated, I think.

4 Q. You mean at the end of that laneway, the little road that we can

5 see that's blocked by the two cars?

6 A. The lane, yes. Yes.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Do you recognise that little yard and the building with the bars

10 on the window?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that the second prison that you were kept at?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is the window to your cell or prison area depicted in that

15 particular shot?

16 A. No.

17 Q. No? Where was it? Where was the window to your cell?

18 A. It was at the top of the building.

19 Q. Do you mean on the ground floor or on another floor altogether, on

20 the second floor?

21 A. It was on the ground floor, because there was no upper floor here,

22 there was only one floor.

23 Q. But you're saying that the window to your cell is not seen there.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Continue.

Page 2682

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Now, does this show the interior of the building of the second

4 prison?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Tell us if you can see the room where the women were kept and

7 where the men were kept. If you see it, don't omit to mention it.

8 Remember that you're looking for the cell where the women were kept and

9 where the men were kept. Just let the Trial Chamber know if you can see

10 it. If you can't, that's fine.

11 A. We were straight ahead through the corridor, and the women were to

12 our left. That's the entrance. And the women were on the left.

13 Q. Now, this particular shot that we can see shows a corridor with a

14 door at the very end. Just go slowly and tell the Trial Chamber where

15 your cell was, if you -- where the door to your cell was, if you can see

16 it in that shot.

17 A. Straight ahead. Our door was straight ahead.

18 Q. All right. So the one that you can see open and with the light

19 coming through it, if you walked into that room, you would walk into the

20 very room in which you were kept; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. And what about the women? Where were they kept?

23 A. To the left, the door on the left-hand side.

24 Q. Okay. There are two doors on the left-hand side. Is it the door

25 on the left-hand side closest to your room, your cell, or is it the one

Page 2683












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Page 2684

1 furthest away, the one closest to us as we look?

2 A. They were the second door from our cell. I know because I carried

3 firewood there.

4 Q. All right. Yes. Okay. Thank you.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Do you recognise that room?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, that's as far as I need to

11 go with that particular video. We have other witnesses who may comment on

12 it. Thank you.

13 If Your Honours please, I seek to tender into evidence the entire

14 video. It has ERN number V000-5026. Copies are here, and I ask that it

15 be tendered into evidence and given an exhibit number. And if Your

16 Honours please, that completes my examination-in-chief.

17 MR. JONES: Your Honour, just one matter for this exhibit.

18 Obviously, it would be helpful to know when it was filmed, and by whom.

19 We assume that this will be given in evidence at some point.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I can inform you that it was taken by an

21 investigator of our team. If we can -- just apparently last summer. So

22 if we can give the particulars to the Defence, perhaps we can just simply

23 agree that as a fact, if that's convenient.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay with you, Mr. Jones?

25 MR. JONES: We concede that with the Prosecution.

Page 2685

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 So, Mr. Nikolic, the Prosecution has finished with its -- with

4 their questions, and you are now going to be cross-examined by Mr. Jones

5 for the Defence. Mr. Jones.

6 We haven't given a number to the exhibit, to the video. I think

7 it already has -- it's premarked 446, I think. Yes, this video that was

8 made use of in the course of the last part of the examination-in-chief has

9 been premarked as P446, and is being admitted with that reference number.

10 So it becomes Prosecution Exhibit P446.

11 Mr. Jones.

12 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

14 Q. Mr. Nikolic, good morning.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. I'm going to start by asking you some questions about the area

17 where you were living in 1992/1993. Now, you told us yesterday that

18 Siljkovici is 300 to 400 metres from Zonjici your village, your hamlet.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, that's not right, is it? Even as the crow flies, it's more

21 like two or three kilometres from Siljkovici to Zonjici?

22 A. Siljkovici and Zonjici, it's like this, if you draw a vertical

23 line and look straight down that vertical line -- and then as the crow

24 flies, I never really measured this. It was a rough estimate. I may go

25 wrong by a couple of yards, but not much.

Page 2686

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't pursue it much further, Mr. Jones. What

2 I think is happening is if this is Siljkovici, and this is Zonjici, what

3 he's referring is the distance from the tip and the other tip, so

4 basically --

5 MR. JONES: That's also what I'm referring to, Your Honour, and we

6 say that's at least three kilometres.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We will try and go on site and see it with our own

8 eyes. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

9 MR. JONES: Of course I mean to continue. It was simply to get an

10 answer from the witness. It's something which maps will verify the

11 distance.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think you're not on the same wavelength. I

13 think he's understanding one thing and you're understanding another, so

14 the way he's measuring it. So don't worry about it.

15 MR. JONES: All right.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Nikolic, you're not going to suggest, are you, that you

17 can see what people are wearing in Siljkovici from Zonjici, are you?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes what? Yes what? Because I don't know how your

20 question was translated --

21 MR. JONES: I can rephrase it. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Nikolic, are you saying that you can -- when you're in

23 Zonjici, you can see what people are wearing in Siljkovici?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, how long would it take you to walk from Zonjici to Kravica,

Page 2687

1 roughly?

2 A. Well, if my health was okay, not more than 20 minutes.

3 Q. And then how long to walk from Zonjici to Siljkovici?

4 A. It would take longer to go to Kravica. Siljkovici is up the hill,

5 and it's three times the distance because it's up the hill, so you can't

6 fast.

7 Q. So to walk from Zonjici to Siljkovici could be, what, an hour's

8 work or something like that?

9 A. That would not be necessary. A healthy man can walk the distance

10 in half an hour.

11 Q. Now, you were asked some questions yesterday about the village

12 guard, so I'm going to pursue that with you briefly.

13 MR. JONES: And with the usher's assistance, I'm going to pass out

14 a new document, and also, if possible, I'd like this map to be on the ELMO

15 at the same time. This document, for the record, it's from the Bratunac

16 collection. The document -- this is an extract from a document which is

17 105 pages document, and the ERN of the whole document is 0065-6757 up

18 until 0065-6861. And the whole document, from which these are extracts,

19 consists of lists, receipts and salaries from August 1992. And that's why

20 we have the first page 0065-6765, because that shows August 1992. And

21 then we pass to the extracts which I'm going to be using with this

22 witness.

23 And I've asked for the map to be on the ELMO just so we can see

24 some of the places as we go along.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Nikolic, if you could look at the document that's been

Page 2688

1 put in front of you, flip through it, you'll see references to Donji

2 Bacici, Gornji Bacici, Marici, Brezanci, Siljkovici. These are all places

3 in the Kravica commune, aren't they, or community, your neighbourhood;

4 isn't that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about the village guard,

7 "seoska straza," and I'm going to come to that in a minute. But firstly,

8 I want to draw your attention to page 0065-6774, and then we see

9 "interventni vod." Do you know what that is, the "interventni vod"?

10 A. I don't know. This village guard that you referred to. I have no

11 idea what else it could be.

12 Q. But have you heard as the "interventni vod" as a unit which

13 specialised in ambushing and killing Muslims as they tried to move about

14 the area?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have you heard of the commander Drago Cupo Djuric? Do you know

17 him?

18 A. No, I don't know him.

19 Q. I'd ask you to look through this document, and you'll see that,

20 taking the first page, you have Donji Bacici, and then you have

21 "seoska straza," village guard, beneath, and again with Gornji Bacici on

22 the first page, a list of names, and then "seoska straza." Do you see

23 that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the village guard is a separate entity

Page 2689












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Page 2690

1 from these other units.

2 A. Yes. Well, it's probably a separate entity. They guarded the

3 village. The army should be something different, but I don't know about

4 that.

5 Q. All right. I'll come back to that. Can you turn now to page

6 0065-6777, and it's the page with Kravica, and I'll ask you to see there

7 the 49 names listed, and then beneath we have "strazu krugu komande,"

8 guards at the command centre. Now, are you aware of the command centre in

9 Kravica, and where that was based?

10 A. I know the army from Bratunac was there. I didn't have anything

11 to do with them. I didn't have anything to do with the army.

12 Q. Do you see the name there under Kravica, number 39, Pajkan Gavric?

13 Do you know him? Number 39, Pajkan Gavric.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know him, or did you know him?

16 A. I knew him when we were children, but I wouldn't recognise him

17 now. He had been away for a long time.

18 Q. Did you know that he was killed on the 7th of January, 1993, at an

19 artillery post?

20 A. No, I didn't know that.

21 Q. Now, you've told us that you spent the whole war in Opravdici, or

22 near Opravdici, I believe. If you could turn to the next page, Opravdici,

23 I want to ask you a couple of questions about that.

24 Firstly, at number 9, "Nikolic Zoran, R.," that's your son, isn't

25 it, number 9?

Page 2691

1 A. It reads Zoran Nikolic, yes.

2 Q. The "R" would be Ratko, indicating that that's his father.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, he wasn't in the village guard, was he, because we see

5 "seoska straza" written below. Is it right that he would have been in

6 the VRS or in some military unit?

7 A. At that time he was in Loznica, in the hospital, as far as I

8 remember, in 1992. I'm not sure what the records say about his sick

9 leave. I don't quite remember.

10 Q. Looking at -- looking at these other names, do you know these

11 other people, Mile Djukanovic, and the other Djukanovics, the Gajics?

12 A. No. It's a rather young man. I didn't stay there for the whole

13 time in 1992. I worked in Zvornik, and I would go to Opravdici every once

14 in a while. But my records were kept in Mali Zvornik, in Serbia, not in

15 the municipal assembly in Bratunac. I would go every once in a while.

16 And then after my surgery in 1992, I went more often. I could not be in

17 Mali Zvornik and I could not work there for I went home a lot. People

18 almost forgot about my very existence, because I was someone who worked a

19 lot in the field.

20 Q. Looking at these names from Opravdici there, and being from that

21 area, you know, in one form or another, all of these people, don't you? I

22 mean, none of them are altogether unfamiliar to you. If there's anyone

23 you don't know, perhaps you could point out their names to us.

24 A. I'll tell you all the people who were over 70 -- all the people

25 who were over 70, I know them. Zivojin, I know him. He died after the

Page 2692

1 over. He was aged over 70, for example.

2 Q. We'll move on.

3 A. Niko Petar, I don't know him. Dukanovic, he also died. He moved

4 to Belgrade. He was aged 93. I know that man Paja Peric --

5 Q. Mr. Nikolic, if I can direct your attention to the first part of

6 the list, not the village guard, you've spoken about Mile Djukanovic and

7 the other Djukanovics. My first question to you is: Do you know the

8 people in the first half of the list, those first 16 names, the

9 Djukanovics, the Gajics, Slobodan Gavric? You know those people as well,

10 don't you?

11 A. I only know Slobodan Gavric. He's an elderly person. He must be

12 about 65 now.

13 Q. All right. So he was not in the village guard, was he, if you

14 know?

15 A. He was in the village guard. I know him. But he never left the

16 village, Slobodan Gavric. He must be aged about 60.

17 Q. If he's in the village guard, why is his name not listed under the

18 village guard?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, it's not for this man

20 to comment on what was in the minds of the creators of this document or

21 not.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I still would like to hear what the answer is going

23 to be. I agree entirely with you, Mr. Di Fazio, but let's hear it.

24 Do you have an explanation why his name appears here and not

25 amongst the list of village guards?

Page 2693

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 MR. JONES: I would ask that this document be given a Defence

3 exhibit number.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being tendered, admitted, and

5 marked as Defence Exhibit ...

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D117.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: D117, thank you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, and Mr. Jones, is this the whole

9 document, or is this just this one page?

10 MR. JONES: The whole document.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. If you had followed carefully what he

12 said in the beginning, he gave the ERN numbers, first page and last page,

13 of the entire document. This is only a part.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

15 MR. JONES: I'm just tendering the part.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: ... the entire bundle is the one exhibit.

17 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What I understand is what I have in my hands is

19 being exhibited, not the entire document.

20 MR. JONES: Precisely. It's what's been handed out that's being

21 tendered.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Nikolic, from Zonjici, you have a good view of the

23 Kravica-Bratunac road, don't you?

24 A. You couldn't see anything between Kravica and Bratunac, between

25 Zonjici and Bratunac. Only Kravica, that's as far as the view went. But

Page 2694

1 you couldn't see any further because there's a valley there and you

2 couldn't see a thing.

3 Q. I'm speaking about the road which, in fact, goes from

4 Konjevic Polje to Bratunac. You could see that road as it went past

5 Kravica and on till Bratunac, couldn't you?

6 A. Yes, I could see the road from Zonjici, from my house, as far as

7 Kravica. The distance is perhaps about 200 metres.

8 Q. Now, from the start of the war, from early 1992 onwards, you could

9 see a lot of armoured vehicles, tanks, and that sort of thing, moving

10 along that road, couldn't you?

11 A. No. Because I didn't spend all of my time there. Therefore, I

12 was in no position to see.

13 Q. When you were there and you looked at the road, isn't it right

14 that you did see JNA tanks, APCs, and other military equipment moving

15 along that road?

16 A. In 1992, you know what it was like. I used to work, I would come

17 over. Whenever I was sick, I would take my livestock over to Popovica,

18 but I didn't go over to Kravica all the time, nor did I have any reason

19 to. I didn't have any reason to know whether APCs were driving through,

20 tanks or lorries.

21 Q. I'll stop you there. First of all, we don't know what it was

22 like. That's why you're here to tell us what it was like. And secondly,

23 the question is not whether you had reason to see anything. I'm asking

24 you what you saw. And if your evidence is that you never saw a single

25 tank or APC on that road, then please tell us. If you did see it, then

Page 2695












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 2696

1 please tell us that also.

2 A. No, I never saw any tanks. I did see vehicles drive by, because

3 there were lorries that were covered and they looked like some sort of a

4 vehicle [as interpreted], but they had protection, they were covered for

5 transport.

6 Q. I'm going to move on to another document.

7 MR. JONES: Could the witness please be shown D6.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one correction for the

9 transcript. The witness said armoured vehicles, it looked like an

10 armoured vehicle, and what we see in the transcript is just vehicle.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it had protection on the

12 sides, for transport, for the protection of the passengers, protection

13 from bullets and shooting.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nikolic, had you, in fact, used the

16 word "armoured vehicles" or just "vehicle"?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think vehicle. It's a vehicle.

18 It's like a lorry that is covered by a tarp, a tarpaulin. I'm not sure

19 what to call it.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but he did use the

21 word "armoured vehicle" and could the transcript please reflect what he is

22 saying. I see why he's trying to explain it a different way now.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Had you used the word "armoured vehicle" or not

24 before?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think what I'm telling you, how

Page 2697

1 can I explain what it was like, whether it was armoured or protected.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not what I'm asking you. What I'm asking you

3 is whether about a few minutes ago, whether you had used the

4 word "armoured" -- the phrase "armoured vehicles."

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used the word, but I'm not sure

6 what to call it, whether it's protected for transport. It's a lorry that

7 is protected, it's closed.


9 Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, if you could look at this next document, Mr. Nikolic, and I'm

12 going to direct your attention to the page with ERN 0665-6784, and it's

13 got Ocenovici Banovici at the top. I think just for everyone's benefit,

14 we can now see at the top of the map on the ELMO those places, Banovici

15 and Ocenovici. Again, going down that list, we have a separate village

16 guard, "seoska straza", and then Artiljerci. Now, firstly, in Artiljerci,

17 there's a Zoran Nikolic under Artiljerci. Do you not see that? ERN

18 0065-6784, it's D6.

19 Do you know Zoran Nikolic?

20 A. Well, no, but -- yes, but the father's name, because there are

21 several people called Zoran.

22 Q. Never mind there for the moment. We see artillery, and 15, maybe

23 even 16 names there. Now, you were in the area in 1992. Did you hear

24 artillery, heavy artillery, firing in the course of 1992 in that area?

25 A. Ocenovici and Banovici is several kilometres from where I live,

Page 2698

1 and I don't know anyone who lives there.

2 Q. That wasn't the question, Mr. Nikolic. In 1992, did you hear

3 heavy artillery firing in your area?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Your evidence is that you never in the whole time, let's take it

6 up to the 7th of January, 1993, in that whole period, you didn't once hear

7 a single cannon or mortar firing?

8 A. No. I could hear when I was back from Zvornik, in the morning.

9 If I was at home, I would be back in the morning, and when there are

10 sounds of shooting, there is no way for me to tell where it's coming from,

11 Kravica, Siljkovici, Sandici, Mratinjci, I don't have any reference

12 points. When the sound comes from somewhere deep behind, I really

13 couldn't tell where it was coming from.

14 Q. So when you say "shooting," are you referring to machine-gun fire

15 or are you referring to the fire of heavy artillery, like I say, mortars,

16 cannons, grenades?

17 A. I think there are differences between infantry weapons. You can

18 hear very strong, very loud sound. The sound is much stronger. I'm not

19 sure what to call it.

20 Q. You've told us you had a clear view of Siljkovici from Zonjici.

21 Is it your evidence that you didn't see heavy artillery deployed on

22 Siljkovici?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. Yesterday, when you referred to Siljkovici, you said it was on the

25 edge of the forrest and therefore that it probably had guards. By that,

Page 2699

1 did you mean it was near the front lines?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, you also said yesterday that your elder son Goran lived in

4 Belgrade during the war, but in fact, he, too, was in the Serb military in

5 Kravica in 1992, wasn't he? In October 1992.

6 A. I don't remember. No.

7 Q. Are you saying no, or you don't know?

8 A. No. Because our people had the records like the one before, the

9 village guard. Sometimes seven or eight people, all of them were killed.

10 And then those that were born elsewhere, it was registered elsewhere,

11 because those people had lists that had nothing to do with it whatsoever.

12 Like the one before, the village guard Opravdici, I know seven or eight

13 people, they were all killed. They were all elderly people. And they

14 appeared to be on some records of some units or another.

15 Q. So when were those people killed, the seven or eight people that

16 you've referred to?

17 A. I know Zikoman Cilovic [phoen] and Rado Gajic and those other

18 people that I've enumerated. All those people were aged over 70 years of

19 age, they no longer exist.

20 Q. When were they killed, is the question, Mr. Nikolic.

21 A. Well, they were all killed after the war, since. None of them

22 exist any more. But I can't designate a date for you. Those were all

23 elderly people.

24 Q. They were killed after the war? You mean they were murdered after

25 the war?

Page 2700

1 A. No, no, a natural death. Natural death. That's how they died.

2 They're old people.

3 Q. If it was a natural death, why did you see they were killed?

4 A. Well, okay, that's how you say where I come from.

5 MR. JONES: Okay. If we could look at the next document, next

6 exhibit it bears the ERN 0131-9843, again from the Bratunac collection.

7 Q. Sorry, just to clarify one point, Mr. Nikolic. The seven or eight

8 people you referred to, they died after the war; is that right?

9 A. After the war.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, turning to this next document, if you could -- if

11 I could refer you to page, it's 0131-9862, at the top it's written "Ceta

12 Kravica poginuli ranjeni," Kravica Company, killed and wounded." Number

13 2240, we see Nikolic Goran, with an R presumably for --

14 A. I can't see that.

15 Q. Okay. I'll wait for you to put your glasses on.

16 If you look at number 2240, it's five from the bottom, Goran R.

17 Nikolic, and the R stands for the name of the father, doesn't it? My

18 question for you is: That's your son, Goran, isn't it, in the Kravica

19 Company?

20 A. Yes. Yes. But he wasn't wounded, he was in Belgrade. I think

21 that can be verified. He was certainly never wounded. There is a man

22 named Goran Petrovic, Goran Djuric. I knew other kids who had the same

23 name. But my son was never wounded, and that should be easy enough to

24 verify.

25 Q. You mentioned one of the Goran -- you say there's another Goran

Page 2701












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 2702

1 Nikolic who you know?

2 A. I know Goran Petrovic, I know Goran Djuric. Those were his

3 schoolmates. Therefore, I really can't say. But I know that they too

4 were fighting.

5 Q. The only Goran Nikolic in your area was your son; isn't that

6 right?

7 A. Yes. My son is named Goran.

8 Q. So he wasn't in Belgrade but in company -- Kravica Company in

9 October 1992.

10 A. As far as I remember, yes, he was working there.

11 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't get the last part of the witness'

12 answer.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: In October 1992, where was your son, Goran Nikolic?

14 Was he working in Belgrade or was he working in the Kravica unit?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was working in Belgrade, in

16 Belgrade, in the company Elektro Serbija.

17 MR. JONES: I'd simply be asked that this document be given a

18 number.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being tendered, received, and

20 marked as Defence Exhibit D118.


22 Q. Now, Mr. Nikolic, before your capture in January 1993, you already

23 had a hernia problem, didn't you, and you also couldn't use your right

24 leg.

25 A. I did use my right leg, but I had hernia. My knee wasn't painful;

Page 2703

1 however, my leg became painful after I was imprisoned in Srebrenica,

2 because my pelvic bone, something happened to my pelvic bone, and my leg

3 is drying up now.

4 Q. Mr. Nikolic, let's take it one step at a time. Your hernia

5 problem was before the war and nothing to do with the war.

6 A. In 1992, on the 5th of May, I was due to have surgery, but then my

7 heart was weak --

8 Q. You don't need to go into such detail. It's a simple question and

9 I think you've answered it.

10 On the day that you were arrested, you were shot in your left leg,

11 weren't you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So at the time of your capture, you already had a hernia problem,

14 you had been shot in your left leg, and you had some problems with your

15 right leg, before you -- at the moment that you were captured; isn't that

16 right? And a yes or no would suffice.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, going to the 7th of January, 1993, I'm going to ask you about

19 Siljkovici. You told us yesterday that the first thing you saw on the 7th

20 of January, 1993, in the direction of Siljkovici, were flames coming from

21 houses in the early hours, but that it wasn't light at that point. So my

22 question is the following: You couldn't, in fact, see anything of how

23 those houses came to be on fire, could you? You didn't see how they came

24 to be on fire.

25 A. I only saw that the houses were burning, and I could hear

Page 2704

1 shooting. They were shooting from weapons.

2 Q. So you can't say for sure, can you, that people set fire to the

3 houses rather than the houses catching fire by use of weapons during the

4 initial assault by zoljas or grenades or mortars. That's not something

5 you can help us with, is it?

6 A. No, I couldn't see that. All I could see was flames and smoke.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. And you also told us yesterday that you

8 saw people coming down from Siljkovici but that you couldn't see what they

9 were wearing. And my question is: Could it not be the case, therefore,

10 that they were all in civilian clothes, all the people who came down from

11 Siljkovici, or at least a large number of them?

12 A. I saw people coming down and yelling, "Charge. Catch them all

13 alive." But it was still dark, it was only beginning to get light, so I

14 couldn't see what clothes they had on.

15 Q. So those people - this is my question - could all have been

16 civilians, as far as you know.

17 A. I can't say whether they were all civilians or whether they were

18 soldiers. I couldn't see all the details because it wasn't quite light.

19 So you couldn't actually see which of them were carrying what kind of

20 weapon.

21 Q. You couldn't see if they were carrying any weapon, could you?

22 A. No, I couldn't.

23 Q. And you couldn't see, at that time certainly, whether they were

24 women -- whether there were women and children among them either, could

25 you?

Page 2705

1 A. No.

2 Q. And the same applies, doesn't it, to Kravica. You couldn't see

3 who, if anyone, set fire to houses in Kravica.

4 A. Yes, you could see Kravica. It was already getting light when

5 they started -- when the burning started.

6 Q. But you didn't see anyone setting fire to any house, did you?

7 A. When I got back home, when my wife and son had left and I was

8 wounded, hit in the leg, when I got back to my house, I could see two

9 armed men and two women entering my house. So I went along the side of

10 the house and hid in that hollow tree trunk and observed what was going

11 on.

12 Q. You're talking about Zonjici, though, aren't you? That's not

13 Kravica. Your house isn't in Kravica, is it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is your house in Kravica?

16 A. No, it isn't.

17 Q. Just sticking with Kravica, isn't it right that you didn't see

18 anyone set fire to any houses in Kravica?

19 A. No, I couldn't see them setting fire to the houses, I only saw the

20 houses burning.

21 Q. Right. So again, those houses could have caught fire from some

22 non-human cause, for all you know, from grenades or mortars.

23 A. They couldn't have, because Siljkovici had been attacked and

24 people were running away. Nobody would set fire to their own house.

25 Women and children were fleeing.

Page 2706

1 Q. All right. Now, yesterday you referred to soldiers, but when

2 pressed, you admitted that many of the people you saw were actually in

3 civilian clothes. So I put it to you that actually the people you saw on

4 the 7th of January, most of them are civilians, although some of them may

5 have had weapons, and not soldiers at all. Is that something you'd

6 accept?

7 A. When I saw the people escorting those gathering things, looting,

8 they were women, children, and adults, and they had to be soldiers

9 securing them, escorting them with weapons. Who else could they have

10 been?

11 Q. They weren't wearing uniform, were they, these people.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, you on that day were in civilian clothes, I think you've told

14 us. If you picked up a gun, would you say you were a soldier?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, you told us how you hid after the attack on the 7th of

17 January, and how during that time you saw people taking things, mostly

18 food and livestock, so I'm going to ask you some questions about that.

19 The people who were taking things were mostly women and children,

20 weren't they?

21 A. Yes. They were elderly; they were carrying things. I didn't

22 notice others carrying things.

23 Q. They had bags for putting food in, didn't they?

24 A. I didn't see that. I didn't pay attention. I couldn't see every

25 detail. I didn't have time. I didn't dare.

Page 2707












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 2708

1 Q. Have you heard the expression "torbari" to describe civilians

2 scavaging for food in this area at this time?

3 A. No. No, I never heard.

4 Q. Did you see these people who you've described taking food fighting

5 each other over the food, arguing with each other and fighting over the

6 things they were trying to take?

7 A. I had occasion to see that in the village when they were taking my

8 things, because I was some 500 to 600 metres away. And when they were

9 collecting my wheat from the barn, they arrived in trucks and in tractors

10 and they were arguing. I heard them well. And in the evening when they

11 came out, I saw that they had been drinking coffee. There was a fire

12 burning and there was a pot used for cooking coffee still there. And they

13 were arguing about how to share the wheat, and they were each trying to

14 get a larger share.

15 Q. Thank you. It was chaos, wasn't it, with people fighting each

16 other over the food which was in your village.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So I put it to you that these people were desperate, starving

19 civilians taking what they could to survive a very bleak winter. Is that

20 something you'd accept?

21 A. Well, yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, you've told us you assumed that these people were

23 Muslims because -- well, you assumed these were Muslims, but Serbs in the

24 area were also scavaging in the village, weren't they, because you told us

25 you were scavaging for food yourself. So it wasn't only Muslims taking

Page 2709

1 food.

2 A. No. I didn't go anywhere I had food in my own house. I didn't

3 need to go and look for it elsewhere.

4 Q. Would you accept that Serbs from your area probably took things

5 with them, livestock and food, from their own homes, if they had time

6 before they left, and maybe even took things from their neighbours as

7 well, if they had time before they left?

8 A. Yes, maybe they did. But I can't say because I wasn't there all

9 the time, so I couldn't see every detail. Probably they did, but I can't

10 say whether they did or not.

11 Q. And can you even say for sure that the Muslims you've described

12 took what belonged to the Serbs rather than -- took from the Serbs what

13 properly can be said to have belonged to them?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need to rephrase the question,

15 because --

16 MR. JONES: Certainly, sorry.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- because it's quite difficult to understand.

18 MR. JONES: Yes.

19 Q. Isn't it right that Serbs in Kravica had already been stealing

20 livestock and other goods from Muslims who were expelled from Glogova and

21 other Muslim villages from the start of war? The transcript should

22 read "Muslims" rather than "Serbs." Had been stealing from Serbs --

23 stealing from Muslims who had been expelled from Glogova and other

24 villages.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, there is an obvious mistake in the transcript.

Page 2710

1 A. No.


3 Q. You're saying that never happened, that Serbs never stole

4 livestock or other goods from Muslims expelled from Glogova and other

5 Muslim villages?

6 A. Maybe they did. I'm not asserting that they didn't, but I didn't

7 see that. I wasn't there to pay attention to everything that went on.

8 Q. Of course.

9 MR. JONES: I've got a couple more questions on this theme, and

10 then I'll be moving on.

11 Q. You've referred to armed people, armed men, escorting these

12 civilians. It's right, isn't it, that your army had fled after the 7th of

13 January, 1993, and so there were no Serbs in the area posing any danger to

14 the Muslims there.

15 A. No, they weren't there. Perhaps people were afraid and they

16 escorted them. On Christmas, on the 7th, I was there for five days and I

17 didn't see anyone there. If I had found someone, I would have joined

18 them, I wouldn't have stayed there wondering about the house all on my

19 own.

20 Q. My point is this, Mr. Nikolic: That there was no need for any

21 armed people to guard the civilians, was there, because there was no one

22 they needed to be protected from since all the Serbs had left the area.

23 A. Yes. But what is safe is safe.

24 Q. Finally, just on this subject, I put it to you that the armed

25 people you saw weren't soldiers but simply civilians who had weapons.

Page 2711

1 Would you accept that?

2 A. I don't know whether they were civilians or soldiers, but they

3 were carrying weapons and they were young and able-bodied. I didn't ask.

4 MR. JONES: I can -- we can have a break there.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 30-minute break, because we have a

6 meeting.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: That is exactly what I was going to ask for an

8 extra five minutes today because I have a problem with my pass and I can't

9 move throughout the building, I have to fix it, so that suits me.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We have a short meeting so we need 30 minutes

11 ourselves in any case.

12 MR. JONES: I'm much obliged, Your Honour.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

16 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Nikolic, you told us yesterday how on the 12th of

18 January, 1993, you were arrested by seven armed people in civilian

19 clothes, and that you walked to Lolici where you came upon Zulfo. Now,

20 it's right, isn't it, that he stopped you from being molested by a large

21 group of people who were there in Lolici.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also told us that you boarded a minibus, a kombi, I think you

24 referred to it as, and that the people were there in white but the rest

25 were in civilian uniforms, or civilian clothes; is that right?

Page 2712

1 A. There were three who were in camouflage uniforms. Only three,

2 they were in white camouflage clothes.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to move now to when you first entered

4 Srebrenica, well, not first, but on the 12th of January, 1993, and I want

5 to ask you about what you saw on the streets there when you arrived.

6 Now, did you see very large numbers of people camping out on the

7 streets of Srebrenica?

8 A. I saw a large number of people walking about the streets. I

9 didn't see them camping. I didn't stay there long. I just passed

10 through. We stopped in front of the police station, and that was just a

11 short way. It wasn't a long journey through the town so that I might see

12 that. It was only some 50 metres.

13 Q. Did you see thousands of people living on the streets of -- you've

14 told us you didn't see them living on the streets, but in the streets,

15 burning plastic buckets for warmth, emaciated, and that sort of thing?

16 A. No, I didn't see that.

17 Q. Now, you've told us that it was minus 10 degrees at some times

18 during that winter, and I think it's right, I think you told us that there

19 was also no electricity in the town.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There was no electricity.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, just to anticipate slightly, isn't it right to say that the

24 whole time you were in prison, in both locations, that most of the time it

25 was very dark, very hard to see anyone or anything?

Page 2713

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, you've told us how you were brought to the SUP building in

3 Srebrenica, first of all. Is it right that the people who had arrested

4 you handed you over to the civilian police, to the civilian authorities?

5 A. I don't know whether they were civilian. They handed us over at

6 the entrance to the building and took us to that room with the bars, where

7 the prison was.

8 Q. Well, the people you saw at the SUP were in civilian clothes,

9 weren't they, the people you saw there, or old police uniforms.

10 A. Yes. Yes. They had different kinds of clothes, as far as I could

11 see.

12 Q. As far as you could tell, these were police clothes or civilian

13 clothes?

14 A. Well, it was different. All kinds. It wasn't a single colour.

15 There were all kinds of colours. They probably changed shifts. It wasn't

16 always the same people.

17 Q. Okay. Now, you told us yesterday that you were interviewed at the

18 SUP on the 30th of January, 1993, the next day. Now, the person who asked

19 you questions, or the persons, was he, or they, also in civilian clothes?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Just for the record, I think it's been -- I think

22 it was a slip of the tongue. It should be the 13th of January, not 30th.

23 MR. JONES: Sorry, I certainly meant to say 13th.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's too late to correct the transcript

25 itself, so what you have just been confirming will amount to the

Page 2714

1 correction. Thank you.


3 Q. Now, did you see whether the answers you were giving to this

4 person, whether they were being noted down on a typewriter? Was someone

5 typing the answers that you gave them, or was it being handwritten?

6 A. Handwritten, with pencil.

7 Q. And you were asked yesterday about certain personal details. Do

8 you actually recall now, 11 years later, whether you were asked all of

9 those questions, asked for all of those details, or is that something you

10 don't remember?

11 A. I don't know, but I do have this document. Here it is, the 11th.

12 Q. Well, we can see that later. I don't want to ask you about any

13 documents now.

14 A. It's from Srebrenica.

15 MR. JONES: I presume the Prosecution is aware of that document,

16 so I'm certainly not going to pursue that now.

17 Q. Now, these details which you were asked about yesterday - your

18 wife's maiden name, where your sons were working - that's something which

19 your friends in the Kravica area would know perfectly well, wouldn't they?

20 These aren't secrets.

21 A. They probably knew that, yes.

22 Q. Now, it's right, isn't it, that after you were released from

23 custody, you were interviewed by Serb authorities and spoken to by the

24 Serb authorities about your captivity in Srebrenica.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2715

1 Q. Did they interview you many times?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How many times did they interview you, the Serb authorities?

4 A. The Serb authorities didn't talk to me much. After I was

5 exchanged, I can't really recall, I don't remember. There was that

6 occasion when the television took pictures of me, but I can't really

7 remember anymore.

8 Q. When the authorities spoke to you, did they ask you for similar

9 details about where you lived and where your sons lived and what your

10 wife's maiden name was?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, on the 16th of January, 1993, the 16th or 17th of January,

13 1993, you told us you had transferred to another building from the SUP

14 because too many people had arrived as a result of the fall of Skelani.

15 So my question is: Is it right, then, that you were transferred

16 essentially to an annex of the SUP in order to house the additional

17 arrivals?

18 A. We were -- when these people were brought from Skelani on the 16th

19 and 17th, I don't know what sort of attack was up there. Four others were

20 brought in as well. And a day or two later, we were transferred to

21 between the court and the municipality.

22 Q. Okay. Now, when you were transferred, you shared a cell, you told

23 us, with four people who had been kept in captivity for, I think it's

24 right to say - and correct me if this wasn't your evidence - for seven

25 months in a stable near Kasaba?

Page 2716

1 A. That was Andza, Mico, Dragan, and Jakov from Kalabaci near

2 Siljkovici.

3 Q. Right. Now, they were in a very bad condition, weren't they,

4 because of what they had suffered in those months before they arrived in

5 Srebrenica.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did they tell you that they had suffered a great deal before

8 they were brought to Srebrenica?

9 A. They told me that they hadn't had an easy time, that they were in

10 a stable or cowshed. They spoke a little and then they kept quiet a

11 little. They didn't speak out very much.

12 Q. Did they arrive after you or before you?

13 A. After me. In early February, that's when they arrived in

14 Srebrenica.

15 Q. So when they arrived, you could see that they were in a pretty bad

16 condition already.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions about the beatings which

19 you suffered, and I want to make very clear, before I ask you these

20 questions, that we don't wish, of course, to minimise in any way what you

21 suffered, but just to be clear about what your injuries were. So I hope

22 that's clear.

23 A. Every day they beat us --

24 Q. Mr. Nikolic, I was pausing for the interpretation. So I'm about

25 to ask you a question. If you'd wait for a question, and then if

Page 2717

1 possible, just answer yes or no.

2 Isn't it right that the injuries which you were treated for were,

3 first of all, broken ribs, two broken ribs, I think it was, and that your

4 ribs were broken on one specific occasion, on the 6th of February, 1993.

5 Can you confirm that?

6 A. Yes. Five ribs were broken, not two. On the 6th, the evening,

7 when they beat us three times during the night, when Kostadin Popovic and

8 the man from Skelani died.

9 Q. Okay. So that was the 6th of February. You've told us also that

10 you suffered a cut with a knife, and you've told us about that so I won't

11 ask you any more about that. You also mentioned that you had a loose

12 tooth as well, that you still suffer from a loose tooth; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Are you all right to continue, Mr. Nikolic?

15 A. Yes. Yes, I can. Yes.

16 Q. So it's right to say, isn't it, that you weren't treated for any

17 other injuries, apart from those injuries which you've just told us

18 about - the ribs, and your tooth, and the cut - when you were in Zvornik

19 Hospital.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But you do say, it's your evidence that you were beaten

22 continuously with rifle butts, sticks, fists, feet, for 40-odd days that

23 you were in captivity. Is that your evidence?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. JONES: I'd like to play the Prosecution's video exhibit from

Page 2718

1 yesterday with a corrected transcript which we prepared. I can point out

2 what the corrections are. They're minor.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But we also need the text offered by the Prosecution

4 so that we can --

5 MR. JONES: Yes. And you have that as a Prosecution exhibit from

6 yesterday --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it's 114 and 115, something like that.

8 MR. JONES: If the technical booth could prepare to play a Defence

9 video, or a video from a Defence computer. And if you could watch and

10 listen to the video, please, Mr. Nikolic, we'll have sound.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it yesterday here. Have you distributed the

12 Defence version?

13 MR. JONES: Okay. Perhaps we can play the video.


15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. JONES: If we could just pause there, because I'd like to ask

17 Mr. Nikolic a question about that segment.

18 Q. And it's -- in English, we have: "On 16 January, when Skelani was

19 attacked, five more men were brought. We were there until February 6 when

20 they beat us up. They cut me there and they cut my ear."

21 Do you recall yourself saying that on the video which we saw just

22 now?

23 A. Yes. I still have it.

24 Q. Mr. Nikolic, it's right, isn't it, that you were in fact beaten

25 for the first time on that night of the 6th of February, 1993, and that's

Page 2719

1 why you say "we were there until February 6 when they beat us up," because

2 that's the first time that that had happened.

3 A. No. They had beaten us many times while we were still at the old

4 police station. On the 6th of February, this happened in a different

5 place of detention.

6 Q. Do you say that in this different place of detention that you were

7 beaten every day, as you told us yesterday, and that the people in the

8 next cell would have heard the sounds of you being beaten every day?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. The women would have heard it, would have heard the sound of you

11 being beaten every day. Very well. We'll continue with the video.

12 A. Yes.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. JONES: That's the end of the video. We would be tendering

15 the transcript into evidence and the segment of the video, if it hasn't

16 been tendered already. I'm not quite sure what the state of play as far

17 as that is concerned.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones, before you proceed.

19 JUDGE ESER: May I just have a question with regard to the

20 difference in translation. The point which you referred to us, "we were

21 there until February 6 when they beat us up, they cut me there, and they

22 cut my ear." That is in your translation.

23 MR. JONES: Yes, the word "kada" wasn't translated in the Defence

24 one.

25 JUDGE ESER: And if you go back to the translation proposed by the

Page 2720

1 Prosecutor, it's a different. It's: "We were there until February 6.

2 They beat us up, they cut me here, they cut my ear." So in the

3 Prosecutor's translation, you wouldn't have the term "when" --

4 MR. JONES: Exactly. That's precisely why we thought it important

5 to correct, because in the original, the word "kada" appears, and you'll

6 appear in Bosnian, I won't try and repeat in Bosnian apart from this part,

7 "kada su nas tukli" and we heard the word "kada" on the video, and

8 Mr. Nikolic confirmed that that's what he had said on the video.

9 JUDGE ESER: May I just ask the translator to confirm which

10 translation is the correct one.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest we re-run that part of the video so

12 that I hear it as well, and then I will ask -- I will put the question to

13 the interpreters. I think we need to go back to the part where the

14 witness is showing his right hand part -- side of his neck.

15 MR. JONES: Our CaseMap manager is just working on it.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. JONES: That was it, actually, that was the segment. I don't

18 know if the interpreters can confirm they heard the word "kada."

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I have to refer to the interpreters who may

20 have been following in the Serbian language.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The booth believes that segment is actually the

22 next one.

23 MR. JONES: My apologies. We'll run it again.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 2721

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We can --

2 MR. JONES: It's the next bit.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, it's the next bit.

4 MR. JONES: Should be play it, then?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Continue. Continue.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you. The interpreters could --

8 THE INTERPRETER: "And we were there until the 6th of February

9 when they beat us up."

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 MR. JONES: So I put it to the witness, and perhaps I'll put it

12 again --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you need to put it again, because the

14 witness gave you a clear-cut answer, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you.

16 Q. As far as who beat you, Mr. Nikolic, in the prison, isn't it right

17 that it wasn't the guards who did it but people who broke into the prison

18 to, as you put it, see the Chetniks. It was those people from outside who

19 beat you.

20 A. Yes. The instructions, the guards at the gate, they couldn't even

21 have come in and opened the doors to our cells if they hadn't led them

22 through. They couldn't have broken the gate down. The guards opened the

23 gate for them, and then they would come in and beat us.

24 Q. Isn't it right that the guards actually tried to stop people from

25 breaking in and attacking you, at least on one occasion?

Page 2722

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, the guards - help us with this if you can - they were

3 civilian policemen, weren't they? If they told you that or if you were

4 able to see that.

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Isn't it right that one of them had one arm and was called Zele.

7 Perhaps not in actual prison but someone you saw subsequently.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, we saw you yesterday with a book which I believe is "Bloody

10 Christmas in Kravica." Now, you told us yesterday Zulfo came to the

11 prison every day. Isn't it right that in that book, you said that Zulfo

12 only came to the prison twice?

13 A. Zulfo Tursun came almost every day, as far as I can remember,

14 during the 46 days that I was there.

15 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions about Kostadin Popovic.

16 Were you actually present when a body which was later believed to be his

17 body was exhumed? Were you present for that exhumation?

18 A. No, I wasn't present. I only saw him later when Kostadin Popovic

19 died on the 6th, and on the morning of the 7th they came. Tursun Zulfo

20 came first at about 10.00, and he walked straight through the prison --

21 Q. I'll stop you there, Mr. Nikolic. I'm asking about the exhumation

22 which took place years later, I believe. The question is whether you were

23 present, and you can answer that with a yes or no, and I think you've told

24 us that you weren't present.

25 A. No.

Page 2723

1 Q. All right. So you don't, in fact, know, do you, whether a piece

2 of paper with his name on it was found on the body or not. That's

3 something other people have told you.

4 A. No.

5 Q. That's no, you don't know, and yes, other people have told you?

6 A. Yes. But when other people told me that on the photograph it said

7 Kostadin Popovic, when they brought the stretcher in to put him onto the

8 stretcher, the guard asked me, he brought pen and paper and he asked me

9 about that man's name and I said, I know he is Kostadin Popovic. And then

10 he wrapped up the paper and wrapped it in nylon; therefore, the nylon

11 preserved this piece of paper from the water inside the earth when the man

12 was buried.

13 MR. JONES: One moment, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a minute. Before you proceed, the transcript

15 of the relevant part from the video clip that we saw is being tendered, I

16 suppose?

17 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And it's being marked D119.

19 MR. JONES: All right. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. And the reason I ask you that, Mr. Nikolic, is that we want to

21 hear from you what you saw yourself, not what you heard from others. For

22 that reason, I was confirming that you weren't present during the

23 exhumation. I take it that remains your answer; you weren't there when

24 the body was found.

25 A. That's right.

Page 2724

1 Q. Now, as well as Kostadin, you said that an old man died after the

2 6th of February, 1993. You don't know who he was, do you? You don't know

3 his name. And please don't refer to any documents. Mr. Nikolic, I don't

4 wish you to refer to documents. I wish you to refer to your own

5 recollection.

6 A. No, I didn't know his name then. Later, when the documents from

7 Srebrenica, then I knew the name, the last name --

8 Q. I'll stop you there. Mr. Nikolic, that's precisely the point

9 which I want to put to you. Let me put this to you as a question: Have

10 you been consulting lots of documents in preparation for your testimony

11 here, reading documents in preparation for your testimony?

12 A. No. I had no documents until I arrived here. No.

13 Q. Who gave you the documents which you've been trying to refer to?

14 You don't need to refer to them. Just tell us: Who gave you those

15 documents?

16 A. I got the document -- well, his son would be here in the

17 afternoon, he would be a witness, Kostadin Popovic, and then he'll explain

18 that's where I got it.

19 Q. So Nikola Popovic gave you those documents?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you speak to Nikola Popovic about your testimony here in

22 The Hague?

23 A. No.

24 Q. He just handed you some documents without saying a word?

25 A. No. He didn't give it to me here, he gave it to me there, while

Page 2725

1 we were still -- a month ago or two.

2 Q. Is it right, Mr. Nikolic, that in Kravica, a lot of Serbs know

3 that you are going to testify here; you've spoken a great deal to them

4 about your testimony here, and they've suggested things that you should

5 say here in The Hague.

6 A. No.

7 Q. I'll break that down a bit. People in Kravica know that you're

8 testifying here in The Hague against Naser Oric, don't they?

9 A. No. Because I -- they didn't know when they came to see me, these

10 people from The Hague, two or three times, whether I'd go or not. Later I

11 found out on Wednesday, and on Monday I was already here. Not much time

12 had elapsed.

13 Q. So then how can Nikola Popovic gave you a document a month ago to

14 bring to The Hague?

15 A. Well, he gave it to me, he said, In case you go, you'll have it.

16 He probably had it from his father. I'm not sure how it was.

17 Q. Have you spoken to Jovan Nikolic about testifying here in

18 The Hague?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I won't pursue that.

21 A. I haven't seen Jovan Nikolic for at least six or seven months. I

22 never go to Bratunac, and he doesn't even live there. I don't know where

23 he's staying.

24 Q. Now, going back to the prison briefly, you've told us that you

25 lost weight while you were in Srebrenica. Did you see what the guards

Page 2726

1 were eating in that they were getting a little better food than you?

2 A. No. I didn't see.

3 Q. Now, when you were released, isn't it right that a man with a left

4 arm up to the elbow came to the prison and said that the first one to get

5 up would be exchanged?

6 A. Yes, two people came.

7 Q. And do you recall whether one of those men was named Zele?

8 A. I don't recall that, no.

9 Q. Before you were released, you were with Ilija Ivanovic in

10 hospital, weren't you, for a period.

11 A. No. No. Ilija was from a different village. He was in

12 Bajina Basta, and I am in Zvornik.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I just don't think from the context that it's been

14 understood by ...

15 MR. JONES: Yes, I'll clarify that.

16 Q. I meant, in Srebrenica, weren't you and Ilija Ivanovic in hospital

17 briefly before you were released, together in the hospital in Srebrenica?

18 A. No.

19 Q. I'm going to move to a different area now altogether. You've told

20 us, I believe - and correct me if I'm wrong - that you were not in the

21 army, the Bosnian Serb army, after your release from captivity.

22 A. No.

23 MR. JONES: I have an exhibit to pass up. It's from the Bratunac

24 collection, and the ERN is 0131-9965. We see in English a list that

25 refers to the infantry -- the 1st Infantry Battalion. If we look at the

Page 2727

1 third page in the original.

2 Q. I'm going to refer you to the third page, Mr. Nikolic,

3 number 96, "Ratko Pajo Nikolic." Isn't that your name? Isn't that you?

4 Number 96.

5 A. My name, but the signature is not mine. I was not an able-bodied

6 person; I couldn't have been in the army. I had a handicap earlier and

7 after I'd been exchanged also. It was always like that. Back at the

8 commands, they could have written whatever they liked. Maybe they had

9 some other elderly people on their records too, when they collected money

10 for whatever purpose. But I was incapable of serving in the military,

11 even before I'd been exchanged.

12 MR. JONES: I'd ask that this document be given an exhibit number.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It will, of course, be given an exhibit number.

14 However, I would like the witness to have his, or what appears to be a

15 signature against his name on this document, on the third page, under 96,

16 be shown to him. I think you need -- usher, you need to put it on the --

17 mark, as you did last time 96, with a piece of paper there, and then it

18 will be moved towards the left. Yes.

19 Mr. Nikolic, that last signature there, the very last one, the one

20 on the bottom, do you recognise that signature?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it your signature?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. You want to give this document a

25 number, and this will be D120.

Page 2728

1 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Nikolic, you've told us you weren't in the army because you

3 were disabled, but you can hold a gun and you can guard a post, can't you?

4 You told us you were in signals. Surely you could work in signals, even

5 if you were disabled.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, his evidence was that he

7 was a night watchman and he was retired for medical reasons in May of

8 1992. Nothing about his capacity to guard a post and nothing about his

9 capacity to hold a weapon and --

10 MR. JONES: It's a question for him.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I know it is, but it's not his evidence.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. You are right, Mr. Di Fazio. And

13 incidentially, correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression, going

14 through this document that you have just filed, that this refers to a

15 period beginning from February --

16 MR. JONES: 1995.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, February 1995.

18 MR. JONES: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So my question to you, Mr. Nikolic: Even in

20 February 1995, you did not form part of the army, did you? In 1995, three

21 years after these events, or two years after these events.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


24 Q. Finally, were you in the VRS in July 1995 when the genocide of

25 Srebrenica's Bosnian Muslim population took place?

Page 2729

1 A. No.

2 MR. JONES: We have another document, a final document, to pass

3 up. Bratunac collection, 0065-8822, and it's the second page -- that's

4 the first page, and then 00658846, I think it is. Mr. Nikolic's name

5 appears -- appears to appear twelfth from the bottom.

6 Q. Mr. Nikolic, are you telling us you weren't in the VRS and weren't

7 in the 1st Infantry Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade in July 1995? You

8 can answer with a simple yes or no, after seeing that document.

9 A. No.

10 MR. JONES: If that document -- there's no signature to compare,

11 so if that could be given an exhibit number.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That will carry the number D121. But one

13 moment, because I -- if you look at the previous document, D120, under 96,

14 which we showed to the witness, there is "Nikolic Pajo Ratko," which could

15 coincide with the particulars that we have of the witness as confirmed in

16 the first part of the examination-in-chief. If you look at this one,

17 unless I am looking at someone else, which number were you referring to?

18 MR. JONES: Well, there aren't numbers, Your Honour, but it should

19 be twelfth from the bottom.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. It says "Nikolic, Mitra," --

21 MR. JONES: I'm not sure we have the same --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: There's another one, "Nikolic Pajo Ratko," okay.

23 All right. But there is more than one Ratko Nikolic. Well, there's

24 Rajko. There's Ratko yeah. All right. This is D121.


Page 2730

1 Q. Finally, Mr. Nikolic, I put it to you that you didn't tell us -- I

2 put it to you that you were in the 1st Infantry Battalion which was

3 involved in mass killings in July 1995, but that you've denied this and

4 you've exaggerated your mistreatment in Srebrenica to ease your conscience

5 about the killings in which you were involved in 1995. That's my

6 suggestion to you. In Kravica.

7 A. No.

8 MR. JONES: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.

10 Is there re-examination, Mr. Di Fazio?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Could the witness be shown D117, please. And

12 I'd like the assistance of the usher to go to -- direct the attention of

13 Mr. Nikolic to the page dealing with Opravdici, which has the ERN number

14 ending 78.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

16 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Nikolic, I think you have part of a document that

17 was shown to you by Defence counsel, and it deals with supposedly

18 characters, or people, men, from Opravdici. You were talking about the

19 age of some of those men. Can you just start -- there's only 16 of them.

20 Just go down and tell the Trial Chamber the ages of those men, if you know

21 them, and if you know their approximate age, also tell the Trial Chamber

22 of their approximate age. So start at the top and let's go through it.

23 Number 1, Mile Djukanovic?

24 A. Mile Djukanovic, no.

25 Q. You don't know him?

Page 2731

1 A. Ranko, no. No, I don't know him at all. Stanko Gajic, no.

2 Nikola. Nikola is working in Germany, he's not here. No. I don't know.

3 Radislav --

4 Q. Did you know Nikola Gajic? Just yes or no, do you know Nikola

5 Gajic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. Continue. Videsav Gajic; do you know that person?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Milivoje Cvetinovic; do you know that person?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Keep going down the list. Is there anyone there --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest you keep going down the list, one by one.

13 Otherwise we'll get confusion.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Number 9, Zoran Nikolic, you're spoken about. Number 10, Slobodan

16 Gavric --

17 MR. JONES: I thought the object was to get the ages of these

18 people. Presumably he knows --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do know Slobodan.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, okay. That's my next question.

21 Q. Can you tell us how old in 1993? Do you know how old,

22 approximately?

23 A. 1993, no, I don't know.

24 Q. Okay. Just slow down and let's think about it. You've told us

25 that you know Slobodan Gavric. Now --

Page 2732

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- back then, back then during the war, in 1993, about how old was

3 he?

4 A. Slobodan, he was born around 1940. And he's bedridden now. For

5 seven or eight years, he's been an invalid.

6 Q. Thank you. Go down to number 13, whose name, I think, is Miso --

7 I can't read that. It looks like Dukanovic. Do you know such a person?

8 A. Yes, I do know him. Miso is an elderly man. He's about -- he's

9 nearly 80 [as interpreted], and he walks with a stick. He walks worse

10 than I do.

11 I don't know Miladin. Miladin died.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.

13 There's a mistake in the transcript. I understood the witness to say an

14 elderly man, meaning now, about 70, in the transcript it says 80. Could

15 this be clarified.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it needs to be clarified.

17 This Dukanovic, Miso, the one who walks worse than you do, how old

18 is he now, 70 or 80?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe he is 70. I haven't seen

20 his documents. I don't know exactly. They were all older than me. I

21 don't know when he was born.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take the next one. Miladin Gavric, who is

23 dead, how old was he at the time, in 1992/1993?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miladin died. I can't explain

25 anything.

Page 2733

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but before he died he had an age. How old was

2 he in 1992 or 1993?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was elderly. No, I don't know.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he older than you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, older than me.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. How much older than you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure he was older. He had sons

8 and grandchildren. About 70.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: If he were still alive today -- you just passed 60;

10 right? No, you --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He would be how old if he were still alive today?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he was 70 then, he would be about

14 80 now.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. Next one. Bosko Nikolic.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No what? Do you know this person?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: He's not a relative of yours.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. He's no relation of mine.

21 That's the village of Opravdici. It's 10 kilometres away. I don't know.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Dragan Djukanovic. Did you know Dragan

23 Djukanovic?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I didn't.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I can't help you more than that,

Page 2734

1 Mr. Di Fazio.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour. That's just what I wanted

3 to cover.

4 Sorry, would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown D118, please.


8 MR. DI FAZIO: D118, I'm sorry. Yes, D118. And again, if the

9 usher could assist, it's the second page, the page that Mr. Jones showed

10 to the witness.

11 Q. Number 2240, 2240 is --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Goran Nikolic.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

14 Q. Goran Nikolic. And that's the name of your son, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You were asked about what your son was doing in October of 1992.

17 A. My son is an electrical engineer, and he works in a company called

18 Elektro Serbija in Belgrade.

19 Q. Thanks for telling us that. Now the question is: Was he doing

20 that in October of 1992?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if he was working at

23 Elektro Serbija throughout 1992 or for just a part of 1992?

24 A. Yes, throughout 1992, and he still works there. He's married

25 there; he has a wife and two children. He lives there.

Page 2735

1 Q. Was he living in Belgrade in 1992, as well as working there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: While we are still on this document, can anyone

5 explain to me why, on the second page, after some names, you have the

6 letter R and after some names you have the letter P?

7 MR. JONES: Well, we think it probably refers to "poginuli"

8 or "ranjeni." "Poginuli" being killed and "ranjeni" being wounded.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you were asked a question, but I will ask it

10 again. Was your son Goran ever wounded during the war?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've finished with that document.

13 Thank you, Ms. Usher.

14 Q. You were asked some questions about what you could see on the

15 morning of the attack, and you said that initially you couldn't see any of

16 the people over at Siljkovici because it was dawn or just breaking day.

17 You've also testified in court that you did see armed men.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, just -- okay. Now, just think back and tell the Trial

20 Chamber about the time period, the time period that elapsed between your

21 first waking up, going out to see the attack, what was happening, and the

22 period of time when you first saw armed men. How much time elapsed

23 between you being first made aware that something was happening and your

24 first laying eyes on armed men? What sort of time period?

25 A. When my wife Marija got up at 5.30, I remember well, she entered

Page 2736

1 the room and said, Ratko, Zoran, get up, there's an attack, we're

2 surrounded. I went outside and you could hear shooting from all sides.

3 We were being attacked from seven sides, Mandici, Opravdici, Popovici and

4 the surrounding villages. Siljkovici, all of that was being attacked.

5 And when it began to get light enough to see, at about 7.00, you could see

6 the smoke and the flames rising from Siljkovici, and then Kravica started

7 burning. And two hours later it had spread to all the Serbian villages.

8 Q. All right. Thank you. All I want to know is this, and you've

9 gone some way to explaining it: About -- oh, I see. So are you saying it

10 was about -- you knew that the attack had started, but it was about two

11 and a half hours before you could see anything; is that what you're -- is

12 that your evidence? Or could you see things clearly before 7.30?

13 A. Well, at 5.30, as soon as I got up, we could hear the shooting and

14 you could see the flames. There was red smoke rising up. It wasn't light

15 yet, but you could see fires.

16 Q. I'll leave this topic. You were also asked about the use of heavy

17 weaponry by Mr. Jones, particularly around Kravica. Did any -- was any

18 heavy weaponry - I mean mortars or artillery or cannons or big guns, not

19 being rifles and automatic weapons - used right in the area of Zonjici,

20 right where your house was and the houses of your neighbours? Any bombs

21 land there?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned that trucks were used to take away

24 your wheat, TAM trucks. Did you see who was in those TAM trucks that was

25 used to take away the wheat from your place, your -- Zonjici?

Page 2737

1 A. No. All I saw was that my wheat was being driven away. When I

2 got there in the evening, my wheat had been taken off. And there was a

3 table there where they had had coffee. And you could see the tire tracks.

4 And then the barn was set on fire.

5 Q. Okay. But what the Trial Chamber needs to know is if you actually

6 saw your wheat being loaded onto the trucks, or is it something that

7 you've concluded because you saw the tire tracks and your wheat was gone?

8 Do you understand what I mean? Is it something that you've figured out or

9 something that you saw?

10 A. Yes, I saw it. They were arguing about my wheat. I was a bit

11 further away. When they were gathering my wheat, I heard them arguing

12 about it.

13 Q. And how many trucks, one or more?

14 A. I couldn't say. They had also horses with saddles and saddlebags.

15 They were taking things, as much as they could carry.

16 Q. I see. Did you -- right. Are you saying that horses were used in

17 Zonjici to take away goods?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were asked by Mr. Jones if guards had tried to stop people on

20 occasions, or at least on one occasion, from beating you, and you answered

21 yes. I want to know this: Are you saying --

22 A. Yes, when --

23 Q. Just wait for my question. Are you saying that guards continually

24 tried to stop people beating you or did it on several occasions, or are

25 you saying that guards only restrained people from attacking you once?

Page 2738

1 A. Only once they prevented them. When he wanted to cut my throat

2 here, the guard caught him by the hand.

3 Q. And that's the one occasion when some restraint was -- came to

4 your assistance.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

9 Judge Brydensholt.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: When you, on the 7th of January, went back to

12 Zvornik, to your own house, and then I understand you covered there, you

13 stayed there until you were arrested, captured, on the 12th of January.

14 During that time, you saw somebody taking away things, your wheat and

15 other things, and you mentioned that it was civilians but also armed

16 persons. Now, those armed persons who were there during those five days

17 after the burning, where could they have stayed during nights? It was

18 cold, I understand. There was no houses left in the village. Could they

19 go home somewhere in the neighbourhood, or where did those people stay

20 during nights, do you think?

21 A. These people I had occasion to see, because I was hiding by day,

22 they held checkpoints, and in the evenings they called out to each other,

23 in Zonjici, in Bacici, and in Opravdici. And there they had fires where

24 they warmed themselves. I don't know whether they changed shifts, but

25 they held those checkpoints and they had fires there. And I would hear

Page 2739

1 them calling out to each other from Zonjici, to Bacici and so on. They

2 were calling out to each other, communicating in that way. In Opravdici,

3 there is still a bunker up there at the top, a dugout, in fact.


5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.

6 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Nikolic, I have a question with regard to

7 captivity. Have you been told at any time for what reason you have been

8 captured and detained?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE ESER: Now, when you have been beaten, were you given any

11 reason why you have been beaten?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE ESER: Now, the beating, was it done completely silently, or

14 did the people who beat you say something while they were beating you?

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

17 I have got a few questions following up one of the questions that

18 Judge Eser put to you which I had meant to put to you.

19 Were you ever charged? You were detained, but were you ever

20 charged? Were any accusations brought against you.

21 A. In Srebrenici, yes. There is a court there. They judged there.

22 I have it here.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this is something -- this is something that

24 we need. So, in other words, let's see this document.

25 Usher, could you bring it over, please.

Page 2740

1 MR. JONES: Your Honour, we just wish to express our concern that

2 the witness seems to be relying on documents for his testimony --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we'll see what this is.

4 MR. JONES: -- and we haven't seen them.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a document that we saw yesterday. This is a

6 document that we have two versions of. One is yours and one is the

7 Prosecution's.

8 MR. JONES: Exactly. We'd be interested in which version the

9 witness has.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the -- now --

11 MR. JONES: In other words, is it the one with Razmjena and

12 without the date.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Without the date.

14 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I might invite Your Honours to ask this witness

16 when he got that particular document that he's showing you in court and

17 who gave it to him.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Who gave you this document, Mr. Nikolic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nikola Popovic gave it to me two

20 months ago.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It appears to have the ERN number. How did Nikola

22 Popovic get a document with the ERN number, Mr. Di Fazio?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I ask some questions?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if you help to clear this mess up, it will

25 better.

Page 2741

1 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it may be a matter for Nikola Popovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But maybe Mr. Di Fazio is going to tell us

3 that he handed it to Mr. Popavic and Mr. Popovic handed it to him.

4 MR. JONES: Anything is possible, Your Honour.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Anything is possible, Your Honour, and Mr. Popovic

6 of course can be asked about this, and rightly should be.

7 Further Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

8 Q. Mr. Nikolic, when you came to The Hague here, were you shown a

9 number of documents and asked questions about them by myself?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did I show you a number of documents that concerned you

12 personally?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you interested in those documents?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you ask for copies of those documents?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, is the document that you handed to Their Honours such a

19 document, one that was shown to you here in The Hague, or did Nikola

20 Popovic --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. Now, you know that you've told Their Honours --

23 A. It was shown to me and Nikola gave it to me, yes.

24 Q. All right. So that's your position. Fine.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't go any further.

Page 2742

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need to go any further, because he

2 considers this as a charge. You can give it back.

3 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: The other question that I wanted to ask you: Did

5 you ever receive any kind of compensation for the damage your property

6 sustained?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Or for the losses that you sustained, the produce --

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- cattle, nothing. So since the war, since these

11 events, you have not been compensated in any way?

12 A. No. No. I received nothing.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now, this Zulfo Tursunovic, after your

14 exchange, did you ever see Zulfo again in your life, after you were

15 exchanged?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever see any photo of him?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other person, Naser Oric, that you mentioned

20 and that you described in your statement, that you mentioned here during

21 your testimony, did you ever see him again, after you were exchanged?

22 A. No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever see any pictures of him, any photo of

24 him? Did you ever see him on TV, for example?

25 A. Yes, I have seen photographs.

Page 2743

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you been shown photographs by the Prosecution

2 of this person?

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't got these photos with you, have you?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Where did you see these photos?

7 A. In the newspapers. When he went to The Hague, then I saw the

8 newspaper.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And you recognised him as the Naser Oric that you

10 had seen in the van?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I have no further questions, which

13 basically means that your testimony ends here.

14 Mr. Nikolic, on behalf of Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser and on

15 my own behalf and on behalf of the Tribunal, I should like to thank you

16 for having come over to give testimony in this case. You will be attended

17 to by our usher. I apologise once more to you for having kept you here

18 for an entire week, but it was necessary. The usher will -- and the other

19 officers of the Tribunal will attend to you, and you will receive all the

20 assistance you require to enable you to return home, to return home.

21 The last thing we need to tell you is to wish you a safe journey.

22 MR. JONES: Your Honour, one matter, if the witness could be

23 firmly instructed not to speak to Nikola Popovic in the meantime.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for -- I had it in my mind before, and I

25 forgot all about it.

Page 2744

1 MR. JONES: Thanks, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I must also warn you, Mr. Nikolic, that

3 although you have finished your testimony, I don't want you to contact

4 Mr. Popovic or any member of his family. Do you understand me?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I also don't want you to contact anyone who would,

7 in turn, contact Mr. Popovic. You must not send any messages to

8 Mr. Popovic directly or indirectly.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. You may leave.

11 Usher, you can escort the witness --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. Thank you

13 very much.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can have the break now. And again, we

16 require 30 minutes to go on with the work that we started before.

17 Thank you. So we'll meet at five minutes to 1.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This next witness does not enjoy any

21 protective measures, does he?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise, Your Honour. Good afternoon.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: No, this witness does not require protective

25 measures.

Page 2745

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought so.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Also because he was being mentioned by the previous

4 witness in any case.

5 MR. WUBBEN: And, Your Honour, in addition, for the record, my

6 name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with

7 Ms. Joanne Richardson, taking over from our colleagues this morning.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Popovic, and welcome to

11 this Tribunal. I take it that you are receiving interpretation of what I

12 am saying in your own language? In other words, you are understanding

13 what is being said?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You are about to start giving evidence, and

16 before you do so, our Rules require that you enter a solemn declaration,

17 equivalent to an oath, to the effect that in the course of your testimony,

18 you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

19 truth. The text of this solemn declaration is contained on a piece of

20 paper that Madam Usher will be handing to you. Please read it out aloud,

21 and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 2746

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Popovic. You may sit down. As I

2 told you already, we will be starting with your testimony today. We will

3 probably not finish it, which will mean that you will need to come back

4 tomorrow. And the procedure that we will follow is that you will first be

5 asked a series of questions by Ms. Richardson.

6 Is that correct, Ms. Richardson?

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed, that is correct.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And when that is over, she will be followed by Madam

9 Vidovic, who is appearing as Defence lead counsel for Naser Oric.

10 In terms of your solemn declaration, you have a duty, an

11 obligation, to treat the Prosecution and the Defence along the same lines,

12 the same. You have no right to distinguish or to discriminate against any

13 one of them. They are here to do their duty, and your obligation is to

14 answer all the questions that are put to you, whoever puts the questions

15 to you, truthfully and fully. Have I made myself understood?

16 Okay. Having said that, I hand him to you, Ms. Richardson, and

17 you can proceed.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Just one matter before

19 we get started, I notice that the witness was informed that we are

20 continuing tomorrow. Is that --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Not tomorrow, because tomorrow is Plenary. We will

22 continue the day after tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, because tomorrow

23 we have -- all the Judges of this Tribunal have a very long day in which

24 they will discuss many important matters. So there will be no time for

25 any sittings tomorrow.

Page 2747

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Examined by Ms. Richardson:

3 Q. Mr. Popovic, good afternoon. Please state your full name for the

4 record.

5 A. Nikola Popovic.

6 Q. And please confirm the following information: That you were born

7 in December 1974; you are married with two children; you are of Serb

8 ethnicity; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in 1992, and until 1993, of January, you were a baker, and

11 that you are presently working as a construction worker; and that you also

12 do some farming as well.

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. You live in the village of Kravica; in fact, you were born there.

15 Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you lived there in 1992 as well, and January of 1993.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And during that time period, you resided in Kravica with your

20 parents, grandfather, and sisters.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, if you could tell us a little bit about Kravica. Could you

23 tell us if it is a Serb village, and whether or not the surrounding -- and

24 how many houses make up the village of Kravica?

25 A. Yes. Kravica is a purely Serb village. In the villages around

Page 2748

1 Kravica, there were between 40 and 50. As for the inhabitants, in my

2 estimate, which is a rough estimate, I think around 1.000 inhabitants.

3 Houses, I would say a total of between 700 and 800 houses.

4 Q. Now, were there any Muslims -- let me rephrase that question.

5 Where is the closest Muslim village?

6 A. It was Sandici. Sandici, the Muslim village, two and a half or

7 three kilometres from Kravica.

8 Q. Could you tell us what most people in Kravica do for a living, at

9 least what they did in 1992 up until January of 1993? Were they farmers,

10 or did they have other types of jobs?

11 A. In Kravica, most people were farmers and bred livestock, for the

12 most part.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Now, if I could have the usher's assistance, with

14 Your Honours' permission, I'd like to have the witness look at a map. And

15 if we could have an exhibit number as well.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be P45 ...

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be P455.


19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

20 Q. Mr. Popovic, if you could just look at that map that's on the

21 ELMO, and could you circle where Kravica is located on that map.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. And could you point to the surrounding Serb villages that are in

24 the immediate vicinity of Kravica.

25 A. Serb or Muslim? Muslim?

Page 2749

1 Q. Well, first -- well, why don't we do this: Why don't you point to

2 the Muslim village that you just testified about, that was the closest to

3 Kravica.

4 A. [Indicates].

5 Q. Thank you. And then if you can, please point to the surrounding

6 villages, or the surrounding Serb villages, in the immediate vicinity of

7 Kravica.

8 A. [Indicates].

9 Q. Okay. If I could ask the usher to give the witness another

10 coloured pen, and if you could just circle those quickly for us. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could hand crayons in different colours --

13 MS. RICHARDSON: I think we have a red pen now with the witness,

14 so ...

15 A. [Marks].


17 Q. Okay. I think that that is sufficient for now, unless there's

18 another one that you can see immediately.

19 A. [Marks].

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness has circled in red

21 several villages and hamlets that appear on the map -- on the map, in the

22 vicinity of Kravica.

23 Witness, could I ask you to sign this map at the top right-hand

24 corner, please, in the white space that there is.

25 MR. JONES: Your Honour, one matter is that the witness was still

Page 2750

1 circling villages, and the only reason I mention is that because, for

2 example, in the meantime he's circled Brezanci, and that's a name we've

3 seen. So I wouldn't want the witness to feel that he had to stop if he

4 still had --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones. So sign the map at the top

6 right-hand corner, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What am I supposed to do next?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Just sign your name, put your signature.

9 THE WITNESS: [Marks].


11 Q. Now, Mr. Popovic --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Now, go back to the map. You were --

13 when I interrupted you, you were still in the process of putting a circle

14 in red around certain villages. Are there any other villages or hamlets

15 that you would like to mark on that map?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please. I need to

17 have a closer look.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see the village of Marici on

20 this map. I can't find it.


22 Q. Is it in -- well, maybe what you could do is just put an X where

23 you approximate it would be if it was on the map, in the vicinity of those

24 villages.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 2751

1 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, the village of Glogova, is that also

2 a Serb village?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is it mixed or is it Muslim?

5 A. It's a Muslim village.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned Sandici previously. If you could - and I will

7 hand a blue pen to the usher - if you could just circle the Muslim village

8 of Sandici. Thank you.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. And the two other villages in that vicinity, Urkovici, I may not

11 be pronouncing it correctly, but is that a Serb or a Muslim village?

12 A. Brncici [phoen]. A Muslim village.

13 Q. Okay. Could you circle that, please. It's very close to Sandici.

14 Yes, thank you.

15 A. [Marks]. Yes. Krncici too.

16 Q. And that's also Muslim?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. And there's another village here in between Pajici. It's a big

20 village, a Muslim village.

21 Q. Okay. I think that's sufficient for now with respect to the

22 immediate area of Kravica.

23 Could you tell us, is it correct that Kravica is located in a

24 valley?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2752

1 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to 1992, I would like to ask about

2 your service with the Serb army, if in fact, you did serve with them. Did

3 there come a time in 1992 that you were mobilised by the Serb army?

4 A. Yes, I was mobilised as a logistics person. I was a baker. I had

5 never done my regular military service, but that counted as military

6 service eventually.

7 Q. And were you paid by the Serb military? Did you receive any

8 money?

9 A. Yes. There were two or three salaries. About June, three

10 salaries. It wasn't a lot of money, really.

11 Q. Do you remember what month you were mobilised by the Serb

12 military, that you received notice that you were mobilised?

13 A. It may have been May, May 1992.

14 Q. How old were you at that time?

15 A. 18.

16 Q. Did you receive any uniforms or weapons as a part of this

17 mobilisation?

18 A. No, I received no uniform or weapons. Those of us who worked at

19 the bakery had a rifle; that was always there.

20 Q. And what did working at the bakery entail? Could you just tell us

21 briefly. Were you a baker, and did you have to deliver bread to other

22 people in Kravica, et cetera?

23 A. Yes. It was a bakery in my own house, attached to my own house.

24 When the war began, a bakery was built of brick, and this catered for the

25 entire village. We baked bread there, and all the villagers came to our

Page 2753

1 bakery for bread. It was next to the school building. So that was for

2 the entire village of Kravica.

3 Q. Were you already a baker by the time -- when you received the

4 mobilisation notice?

5 A. Yes. I completed my eight years of elementary school, and I found

6 a job at Kravica. A relative of mine, Popovic, opened this big bakery. I

7 worked there for a year and a half or two years, and then the war began

8 and caught me there at the bakery, in Kravica.

9 Q. Were other men in Kravica, to your knowledge, also mobilised? Did

10 other men receive mobilisation notice from the Serb army?

11 A. Yes. People were mobilised, after the war had begun in the areas

12 of Bratunac and Srebrenica. I think it was May, late April or early May,

13 when the first man was wounded in Jerkovici, before the war had begun for

14 real. The man was Andrija Jerkovic, and he was wounded in late April.

15 Q. Were men mobilised? Excuse me. Were men in Kravica also

16 mobilised?

17 A. No.

18 Q. With respect to the men that were mobilised, other than yourself,

19 do you know if they also were paid or received their salary from the Serb

20 army?

21 A. I don't know where the salaries came from, but it kept on coming

22 for two or three months. Someone obviously secured some money. It wasn't

23 much money, but we received an amount in the whereabouts of 10 to 20

24 German marks.

25 Q. And did the other men that were also mobilised, did they receive

Page 2754

1 any weapons or uniforms in addition to anything else? Whether the

2 salaries came from them or not, do you know if there were weapons or

3 uniforms issued by the Serb army?

4 A. To start with, there was some sort of training. Some weapons

5 arrived, and there was training on a large meadow. And some were issued

6 with weapons and other weapons were returned. But there weren't enough

7 weapons for the entire village, not for all the inhabitants.

8 Q. Do you remember when the training took place, and where the

9 training took place?

10 A. It was on a large meadow, for four or five days. After that, it

11 finished, and they collected and moved on.

12 Q. Do you know when this training took place? Was it in 1992?

13 A. I don't know exactly when, but it was in 1992.

14 Q. Well, was it in the summer or the spring?

15 A. It was summer. It was late spring or early summer.

16 Q. Were you also trained?

17 A. No. I didn't go -- undergo any training, but I did go up to the

18 big meadow. However, I wasn't trained.

19 Q. Now, did all of the men who participated in the training receive

20 weapons at some point; do you know?

21 A. Not all of them, no.

22 Q. Now, did there come a time that your village, Kravica, established

23 a village guard?

24 A. Yes, there was a village guard there. The guard was kept in

25 Kravica until the war began to spread. When the war began to spread, and

Page 2755

1 the Muslims from Kravica, Konjevic Polje, attacked, then a village defence

2 was put up. Then people were deployed in villages. This started to

3 spread. The villages started to burn.

4 Q. All right. Before we get to the villages burning, let's talk a

5 little bit more about the village guard. Do you remember when in 1992,

6 what month, this village guard was established in Kravica? And are we

7 talking about the town of Kravica or the surrounding villages that make up

8 Kravica?

9 A. I know about Kravica. I don't know about the other villages. I

10 only know about Kravica, where I lived. When things started heating up,

11 there were village guards, people who stayed awake at nights in the

12 village. They were awake and they watched.

13 Q. And who were these people?

14 A. People from the village of Kravica.

15 Q. And how many of them were there?

16 A. It would change. There were always four or five people awake in

17 the village, standing at the centre, because things were brewing and

18 somebody had to be awake in the village, check the traffic, and so on.

19 Q. And what did they guard in the village?

20 A. The village, the entire village; the school, the health centre,

21 the post office, the health centre, the local office. All the facilities

22 in the center of Kravica.

23 Q. Were you also part of this village guard?

24 A. No. I was young. And at that time Muslim inhabitants would take

25 down the Serbian flag, they would write graffiti, "SDA", and things were

Page 2756

1 really brewing, they were heating up, so somebody had to be there.

2 Q. Now, was your father or grandfather a member of the village guard?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which one?

5 A. My father was in the village guard, not my grandfather, because he

6 was 72, he was not liable for military service.

7 Q. Did the village guard have uniforms, and did they have weapons?

8 A. No, there were no weapons, except if people were hunters.

9 Q. Now, you just mentioned that things heated up. Could you just

10 explain to us, what are you referring to in terms of things heating up?

11 Are you referring to what occurred in other villages or in the village of

12 Kravica?

13 A. As I've just said, a man was wounded, Andrija Jerkovic. In his

14 village of Jerkovici, he was mowing a meadow, and the Muslims attacked him

15 there and wounded him. And then up there in Magasici, Stojko Popovic was

16 killed. That was in April, April or early May. End of April, early May.

17 That's when it started to ...

18 Q. Mr. Popovic, did there come a time that when the village

19 established a defence line, or the village of Kravica and the surrounding

20 villages establish a defence line?

21 A. Yes. Yes. There was a defence line, and people were in the

22 villages. It was the people who were from a certain village that held the

23 defence there; Kravica, Siljkovici. When people started getting killed,

24 then people took this seriously, and this spread.

25 Q. And do you know when this was established, this defence line?

Page 2757

1 A. I don't know the precise date, but I think it was in early May.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could just have the usher's assistance with

4 the map that was just placed on the ELMO, Prosecution Exhibit 455.

5 Q. Mr. Popovic, please take a look at the map and tell us -- and if

6 you could draw exactly where the defence line was set up that included the

7 village of Kravica, maybe with a blue pen. I think that would be

8 appropriate. Thank you.

9 A. At the beginning of the war? Should I draw a line as to the

10 villages we guarded and secured?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. [Marks]. I do apologise. A little while ago I circled a Muslim

13 village here. Hadzici, that's a Muslim village. I only realised that

14 now. I thought it was another village, but I now see it's Hadzici, a

15 Muslim village.

16 Q. And could you take an X and just X out -- well, not cross out but

17 just --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go over the red circle in blue.


20 Q. Just circle it now in blue, if you will, with the same pen. You

21 can just circle that same village in blue. The village that you just put

22 an X through, can you circle it in blue, Mr. Popovic.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. Thank you. So the line that you just drew on Prosecution

25 Exhibit 455, this represented the defence line. Thank you.

Page 2758

1 A. [No interpretation].

2 Q. Now, could you tell us why this line was established?

3 A. Because the war had already started, and we'd already had two or

4 three victims in our village of Kravica. It had already started. And

5 that's why the village defence line was put up.

6 Q. And the purpose was to defend the village, the villages, within

7 that line?

8 A. Yes, to defend the village.

9 Q. And how many men were in the defence line, or participated in this

10 defence line?

11 A. I don't know the exact number, how many there were when the war

12 broke out. I can't tell you exactly. I don't know exactly how many men

13 were there in 1992, when it all started. Later, people left. A lot of

14 people from Kravica were killed or wounded, so they were scattered after

15 the beginning of the war.

16 Q. Were there men from Kravica also in this defence line?

17 A. They were all men from Kravica, the local villagers from Kravica.

18 There was nobody from the outside at that time.

19 Q. So there were no -- there was -- I'll withdraw -- rephrase the

20 question.

21 This defence line and the men that were part of it, did this also

22 include Serbs outside of Kravica, serving in the Serb army?

23 A. These were all Serbs from Kravica.

24 Q. Not from -- not outside of Kravica, in other words.

25 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you repeat it, please.

Page 2759

1 Q. That's fine. My question is: Other than the men from Kravica on

2 this defence line, did the Serb military send additional men to assist

3 with this defence line?

4 A. It did when the attack had already started. When the villages

5 were already attacked and when they'd started burning, that was when help

6 arrived.

7 Q. Are you referring to January of 1993 or December of 1992? Could

8 you be more specific? When did they send this help?

9 A. No, I'm talking about 1992. Because there are villages here that

10 were burnt before December and before Christmas. On the 7th of January,

11 half of the villages were burnt before. We had fierce attacks on the 20th

12 of July in Magasici, and they attacked Jezestica on the 20th of July, and

13 seven civilians were killed in Magasici. Seven civilians, five women, and

14 a girl who was pregnant, she was eight months' pregnant, and she was --

15 she was a relative of my wife, so I know that. And in Jezestica, people

16 were killed. And then this spread to the other villages, Banovici,

17 Ocenovici, Lipenovici, Jasikovaca, Dolovi, Mratinjci, Donji Mratinjci,

18 Gornji Jerkovici, Brana, Donji Brana. These were all the villages that

19 were burnt between May and December.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is it convenient for you to stop here,

21 Ms. Richardson?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour, it is.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we will adjourn until the day after

24 tomorrow. Tomorrow is Plenary day so we won't be able to sit. And we will

25 be sitting on Thursday, in the afternoon, in the afternoon.

Page 2760

1 MS. RICHARDSON: I understand that's correct, Your Honour.


3 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. You will have time to rest. You

5 will be attended to during your stay here. What I want to make sure is

6 that you do not contact anyone between now and Thursday when you continue

7 your evidence, you do not contact anyone in relation to the events that

8 you are testifying about.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And you must not let others contact you either.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So our sitting is adjourned. Thank you.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

15 December, 2004