Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2865

1 Friday, 10 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam.

10 Mr. Oric, I want to make sure, before we proceed, that you are

11 receiving interpretation in your own language.

12 THE ACCUSED: [No Interpretation].

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down, but I'm not

14 receiving interpretation in English.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, can you hear me now?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I'm hearing you now, but I wasn't hearing you

17 before so I don't know what the accused said..

18 THE INTERPRETER: The accused said the following.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I repeat?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Oric.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I follow the proceedings fully, and

22 I understand everything in my own language.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Oric. Please sit down.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.

Page 2866

1 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning to Your Honours and good morning to my

2 learned friends of the Defence team. My name is Mr. Jan Wubben, lead

3 counsel for the Prosecution, together with Ms. Joanne Richardson. And

4 also you see at the table Mr. Jose Doria. He will become a trial attorney

5 in the team acting in the near future as such, and our case manager, Ms.

6 Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it Jose or Jose?

8 I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and your team.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for Naser Oric.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. My name

11 is Vasvija Vidovic. Together with Mr. John Jones, I appear with Mr. Oric.

12 With us are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our CaseMap

13 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

15 and your team.

16 May I ask first of all if there are any developments yesterday and

17 which you had to verify, Ms. Richardson?

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we're not completely there with

19 respect to the final result. However, our request unit confirmed that we

20 did not receive anything. We're at this time seeking verification from

21 Republika Srpska that they did not forward anything, and I think that

22 would bring an end to the matter, whether or not we have records in this

23 possession.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: In which case could you please then forward all the

25 information to Ms. Vidovic who could then be put in a position to take it

Page 2867

1 up with the person in Republika Srpska that gave her the information that

2 everything had been supplied to the Office of the Prosecutor.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: We will do so, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no comment on

6 what the Prosecutor has said. I have information from the public

7 prosecutor of Republika Srpska that these documents were set apart. I

8 certainly wish to see those documents, whoever has possession of them,

9 whether this Prosecutor or the prosecutor of Republika Srpska.

10 I would now like to proceed with the witness. We have no other

11 issues to raise.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

13 Do you have any other issues to raise, Mr. Wubben or

14 Ms. Richardson?

15 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. In short, Madam Vidovic informed

16 me this morning that the upcoming witness will take two hours. For me

17 that was a kind of surprise, but she explained it to me. She can explain

18 it further. It has to do with translation and taking the time for that.

19 But it means that we might have some -- to do some rescheduling, because

20 according to our projected scheme from yesterday and what Defence counsel

21 confirmed to us, she planned to have around - it's always an estimation -

22 one hour. But when it is two hours today, that will mean that the witness

23 planned for this day to finalise has a chance to not be -- being completed

24 today. So we will inform the Victim Witness Unit of this development.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: How much time yourselves do you require for the

Page 2868

1 examination-in-chief?

2 MR. WUBBEN: Two hours, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Two hours. And you need another two hours? So

4 that's four hours. And how much longer do you think you need the current

5 witness on the stand? How much longer?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do my best to

7 finish as soon as possible. However, you saw yesterday that if I hurry,

8 the interpreters cannot keep up. I'm afraid I will need about two hours.

9 But I will certainly do my best, if possible, to be finished within an

10 hour and a half.

11 If you look at the transcripts, I always said that for this

12 witness, Mr. Popovic, I would need two to two and a half hours. However,

13 yesterday, when responding to my questions, I realised that this was a

14 witness who takes up more time than usual because of the way in which he

15 answers questions.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. In rescheduling, perhaps you could

17 consider eliminating Racine Manas from the list for next week. She is

18 scheduled to testify on the 17th.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And that would spare you having to send back any of

21 the other witnesses that you have lined up for that week. It's up to you.

22 I'm not going to interfere here.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Of course. But that is a good option, thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

25 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness.

Page 2869

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Please stand up, Mr. Popovic. Good morning to you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you are receiving interpretation

5 properly?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will be resuming your testimony. As I

8 explained to you yesterday, we hope to be over and done with it in the

9 first part of this morning's session.

10 May I just remind you of two things: First of all, that you are

11 still testifying under oath in terms of the solemn declaration that you

12 entered last Tuesday; and secondly, that the moment I notice that there is

13 confrontation between you and Madam Vidovic, I will take all the necessary

14 steps. I noticed you yesterday, how you were reacting at some of the

15 questions that she was putting to you. She is here doing her duty. She

16 has a responsibility towards her client, and you have to honour that. I

17 told you on the first day when you came to this courtroom that your

18 responsibility under the oath is to answer truthfully and fully each and

19 every question that is put to you, irrespective of who is putting that

20 question.

21 I hope I have made myself clear and understood to you, and I hope

22 that we will have less incidents and less confrontation than we did

23 yesterday. Did you understand?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. And let's proceed with the

Page 2870












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Page 2871

1 cross-examination.

2 May I also remind you again to allow for a pause between question

3 and answer, since you speak the same language, because otherwise I will

4 have problems with the interpreters who I have every intention to protect,

5 as I explained to you yesterday.

6 Madam Vidovic.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. Mr. Popovic. I do apologise, Mr. Popovic. When responding to my

13 questions yesterday, you said that your forces attacked Sandici with the

14 intention of retaking some villages in the immediate vicinity of Sandici

15 and which have been taken by the Muslims; is this correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does this mean, then, that these forces included volunteers from

18 Serbia, the ones we mentioned yesterday, the ones you saw on that list?

19 A. I don't know anything about volunteers, because there were no

20 volunteers in Kravica.

21 Q. Very well. It's true, is it not, that these forces attacked the

22 surrounding Muslim villages - I'm referring to the forces of Kravica -

23 including Sandici in order to cleanse the terrain - I will use the same

24 word you used yesterday - and to create something that could be annexed to

25 Serbia; is this correct?

Page 2872

1 A. No.

2 Q. What is correct then?

3 A. It's correct that we wanted to retake the villages of Mrantici

4 Gornji and Mrantici Dornji, Jerkovici Golovi, those villages that had been

5 attacked on the 26th and burnt.

6 Q. But, Witness, on the 29th, it was Sandici that was attacked?

7 A. I don't know about Sandici that they were attacked on the 29th.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Vidovic.

9 Yesterday you told us, when the question was put to you whether

10 you knew that certain persons that appeared on the list that was shown to

11 you yesterday, the first 11, had died in Sandici on the 29th of January --

12 of May.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The 29th of May.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: The 29th of May. You immediately took us back to

15 the 26th and said no, you should first think of what happened on the 26th

16 because what happened on the 29th, three days later - you did precisely

17 mention three days later - was in response to what happened three days

18 before. And you did mention Sandici as a combat area on the part of the

19 Serbian troops trying to regain possession of what they had lost three

20 days before. So I take it that you are fully aware that there was some

21 combat activity on the 29th, in Sandici, or in that area.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I said

23 that on the 26th, when it burnt, the army arrived from Bratunac to retake

24 that village that had been burnt down. That's what I know.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

Page 2873

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did Sandici burn down on the 26th?

3 A. Sandici?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Very well, Witness. Let's move on. I will now quote to you a

7 part of the statement you made to the Prosecutor in July this year. I

8 think that yesterday you confirmed that in July of this year, you made a

9 statement to the Prosecutor; do you remember that? Do you remember making

10 that statement and signing it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I will now quote a passage to you. If necessary, I can show it to

13 you. You said: "The village --"

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is in paragraph 8 in the

15 English and B/C/S versions.

16 Q. You said: "The village was defended on the front lines, and there

17 were between 250 and 300 soldiers, including the logistics staff. After

18 the siren went off, normally everyone who were to be on the front line

19 took their positions."

20 Is this correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In your previous statement, then, you decidedly spoke about

23 soldiers, not about the village guard, not about civilians who were

24 keeping guard of some sort.

25 A. I said soldiers who had to go to the line when the village was

Page 2874

1 attacked.

2 Q. Very well.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he answered this, Ms. Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You said in your statement that your father, your late father, was

6 at the front line. What unit was he deployed in?

7 A. He was at Jezero.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that answers -- answers the question.

9 What's Jezero? Jezero is the name of a place, I suppose. But the unit,

10 your question was --

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I was just about to ...

12 Q. Mr. Popovic, can you tell us precisely what you mean when you say

13 he was at Jezero? What is this about? Because I asked you what unit he

14 had been a member of, not at which position he had been.

15 A. He was in Kravica, in the Kravica -- I don't know, there wasn't a

16 unit.

17 Q. You said of Kravica. Can you complete your sentence?

18 A. The defence of Kravica, the village defence of Kravica.

19 Q. Was this a Territorial Defence unit of Kravica?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. Now please tell us precisely what position your father held. At

22 what position was part of the unit, or the unit of which your father was a

23 member?

24 A. My father was at the defence line at Jezero, overlooking Kravica.

25 Q. You probably found out when your father was arrested.

Page 2875

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In relation to the time of his arrest, when was the last time you

3 saw him?

4 A. On the morning he went off to Jezero.

5 Q. But in relation to the time when you last saw him, do you know

6 when he was arrested? How long after that?

7 A. He was arrested at about 4.00 on the 7th of January.

8 Q. Very well. In your testimony you said that your father was

9 wearing a JNA uniform, didn't you?

10 A. The old JNA uniform.

11 Q. Yesterday, when asked by the Prosecutor about the attack on the

12 7th of January, 1993, you said when the siren went off, everyone went to

13 the front lines. Is this because all able-bodied men had been mobilised?

14 Am I correct in saying that?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I hate to object at this point.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Just for clarification and to make sure that the

19 record is correct, I believe the witness testified that he and others

20 remained in the bakery. So it's not everyone. I think we need to be

21 clear about this. The witness should be asked who went to the front line.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think that's a very proper objection to your

23 question, Madam Vidovic. Could you -- I suppose I would direct it to the

24 witness himself straight away.

25 When you say "everyone," everyone without a single exception? For

Page 2876












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Page 2877

1 example, did you go to the front line each time you heard the siren?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: There were exceptions. When you said "everyone," it

4 wasn't really everyone. It was several but not all.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So who wouldn't go to the front line?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Women, underage children, elderly

8 people.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But you didn't go to the front line, and you're not

10 a woman, you're not a child, and you're not an elderly. So why wouldn't

11 you go, for example?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was at the bakery.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Were there others like you in the same

14 position, who were not women, not children, not elderly, who couldn't go

15 or who wouldn't go to the front line?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Men didn't go to the front

17 line if they were not fit. There were people working in the bakery, in

18 the kitchen, in the rear.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And if someone just didn't feel like going to the

20 front line, would there be consequences? If, for example, when your

21 father heard the siren, instead of going to the front line he just decided

22 not to go, was he free to do so? And if he did not go to the front line,

23 would he have suffered consequences?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you elaborate on this, please.

Page 2878

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You had to go. When the line was

2 attacked, people whose duty it was to defend the village had to go. And

3 if they didn't, they had to defend the village.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But we've heard a lot of witnesses coming here who

5 were in the village guard and who, instead of going to the front line, ran

6 away and sought shelter to save their lives. So was that possible or not?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they fled if they were elderly,

8 children or women. But able-bodied men had to attempt to defend their

9 village.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But why? Was it because it was part of the army or

11 the territorial force?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they were defending the

13 village. How can I put it?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I take it that, at least we have the

15 impression, the village guard system was on a voluntary place.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning, the guard was,

17 yes. But then when attacks on the villages began, then there was a line

18 of defence.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, Ms. Vidovic, he's back to you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Did other men also, who were able-bodied, receive call-up notes,

22 just as you did?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. Is it correct that your military assignment was the bakery, in

25 fact?

Page 2879

1 A. I don't know. How do you mean "military assignment"?

2 Q. Your military assignment, your duty at that time, your deployment,

3 was it in the bakery?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that's the reason you didn't go to the front, because you were

6 deployed in the bakery.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. The fighters in Kravica had received weapons,

9 including automatic rifles; is that not correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It is true, isn't it, that your father too signed for an automatic

12 rifle with ammunition on or around the 7th of May, 1992.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You knew Mr. Nikolic, whom we talked about yesterday. You knew

15 his sons too, I assume; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, Ratko.

17 Q. Is it not true that his son Zoran also had an automatic rifle?

18 A. I don't know about him, really.

19 Q. Do you know whether he had signed for any weapon whatsoever?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. I will now move on to something different. You handed over a

22 document to the OTP yesterday. This document is a diary. I assume that

23 you handed over to the OTP the original of that diary; am I right?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What exactly, then, did you hand over?

Page 2880

1 A. A copy.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's get to the bottom of this straight away.

4 Who has the original, do you know? Don't look at Ms. Richardson.

5 Look at me, please. Who has the original? You told us yesterday that

6 this was found in a field, and that it was preserved and copies of it

7 handed from one person to the other until it reached the Office of the

8 Prosecutor and until it reached us yesterday. Do you know who has the

9 original?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The original is with my uncle Milic.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may. Just one moment. With

13 respect to the record, I noted that counsel indicated that the witness

14 handed over the document yesterday --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay, it's all right. But these are petty,

16 petty things.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: I know. I just wanted for the transcript, Your

18 Honour, for the record. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But let's not waste time on that.

20 But have you ever seen -- Ms. Richardson, has any one of you seen

21 the original?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: We have not, Your Honour. And the witness is

23 saying that his uncle has a original. I don't know if he knows this for a

24 fact or if he's assuming what what his uncle has is the original. It

25 could be very well a copy of the original.

Page 2881

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I think we are not dealing with a stupid man.

2 We're dealing with an intelligent man, young enough to have complete

3 control of his memory, who can distinguish between a copy and an original.

4 The only problem we could have if the interpretation that he's receiving

5 does not translate properly, original and copy, which I don't propose is

6 the case.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Very well, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we have this original? Would your uncle be

9 prepared to make it available? And then we will hand it back to him, of

10 course.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the name of your uncle again, please?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radovan Popovic.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you taken note of it, Mr. Wubben?

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, we have, and we will make

16 arrangements to collect this document.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So I think we have surmounted that problem,

18 and at least we know where the original is.

19 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in relation to this

21 very issue, I just wanted to clarify who is in possession of the original.

22 Q. Witness, can you tell us what you know about when this diary was

23 found. What were you told?

24 A. The diary was found in 1996 or '97, when a work platoon who were

25 working on the power lines found this book in a meadow.

Page 2882












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Page 2883

1 Q. So it was out in the open, just lying there.

2 A. Yes, that's what my uncle told me.

3 Q. Witness, do you know that after the genocide in July 1995, the

4 Muslim population left the area?

5 A. The area of Srebrenica, you mean?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Yes, I do know that.

8 Q. Does that mean that this document was exposed to the elements and

9 bad weather, just lying out there in the meadow?

10 A. I really can't say.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It depends on what it was left on the meadow, Madam

12 Vidovic. It could have been left there on purpose in anticipation of the

13 workmen passing through that area.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Your Honours, before I move on, I would like to ask the OTP to

16 immediately present this document so that we can inspect it, or rather as

17 soon as they receive the original so that we can inspect the document.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure they will, Madam Vidovic. I don't need to

19 remind them. Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, you said that your father was wearing a uniform. The

22 other soldiers in Kravica too were, in fact, wearing uniforms, weren't

23 they?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What sort of uniforms were those?

Page 2884

1 A. The jackets and trousers that were normally worn by the JNA

2 earlier on.

3 Q. Your house was in the vicinity of the school building in Kravica;

4 am I right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would I be right in saying that, from the 14th of November, 1992

7 onwards, the school building was being used as the command of the

8 3rd Infantry Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade, also known as the Kravica

9 Battalion?

10 A. I don't know about its name.

11 Q. But you did live and work in the immediate vicinity of the school

12 building, didn't you? I understand that perhaps you're not aware of the

13 name of this unit, but is it not true that this was the headquarters of

14 the Kravica Battalion ever since the Bratunac Brigade was first

15 established?

16 A. I know they referred to it as the staff or headquarters.

17 Q. Can you please describe for us, describe for the Chamber, what

18 exactly was there in that building, in addition to the kitchen that you

19 have described?

20 A. I know there was a kitchen. I got flour from a room there; that's

21 where the food was being kept. But I didn't go into any of the other

22 rooms.

23 Q. But you also said that the headquarters was there too. What was

24 it, in actual fact?

25 A. There were four or five people there, who were there in Kravica,

Page 2885

1 who were distributing food and whatever else was necessary.

2 Q. Is it your testimony, Witness, that in the school building, the

3 only people who were there were people who were distributing food, or were

4 there other people there too?

5 A. In December, when Glogova was cut off, there were about 20

6 soldiers there who came to help out when Kravica was surrounded. There

7 were 20 soldiers from Bijeljina.

8 Q. Was this the Panthers unit from Bijeljina?

9 A. I'm not sure what they were called, but they were there.

10 Q. Outside the school building in Kravica, they were there at the

11 time you are talking about, weren't they? That means December 1992.

12 There were tanks too and APCs captured by the Muslim forces on the 7th of

13 January, during the attack; isn't that correct?

14 A. I'm not sure how many tanks and APCs you mean. Which amount

15 exactly?

16 Q. Were there any tanks at all, or APCs for that matter, outside the

17 school building in Kravica in December 1992?

18 A. Yes, there was one. I'm not sure what I should call it. People

19 came across the hill, those who arrived in Kravica in December, and they

20 drove it up there. It was some sort of an APC, something like that. It

21 stayed right there, and it burned down outside the bakery, in the

22 school yard.

23 Q. Was there a tank too?

24 A. I don't know about the tank.

25 Q. Do you know about the Praga? Do you know what a Praga is?

Page 2886

1 A. I don't.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You can tell him what it is, and perhaps he can give

3 you an answer, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Praga is also a piece of heavy artillery which looks much like a

6 tank.

7 A. What I said about those people who came from Bijeljina, that was

8 the vehicle they used to reach Kravica in December. I don't know if it

9 was a tank, a Praga, a self-propelled machine-gun or a transporter.

10 Q. Did that vehicle have a machine-gun mounted, or something that

11 could be used to fire?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it not correct that there were mortars positioned near the

14 school building too, mortars that the Muslim forces captured on the 7th of

15 January, 1993? You should be in a position to know that, shouldn't you?

16 A. Near the school, or anywhere in the vicinity of the school, there

17 were certainly no such things.

18 Q. Where, then?

19 A. I have no idea.

20 Q. In your testimony, you said that you saw no attackers; is that

21 true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You didn't see anyone set fire to the houses, did you?

24 A. That's true.

25 Q. You said that you only saw the houses burning in Marici,

Page 2887

1 Jezestica, Siljkovici, and Brezak; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your earlier statements, or rather, your statement to the OTP

4 dated July 2004, you never mentioned that anyone had told you about the

5 Muslims burning the houses. Would I be right in stating that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why did you mention it yesterday, then? You never mentioned it

8 before in your statements, did you?

9 A. Because I recalled some days ago that there was a man from Kravica

10 who told me that they had been setting fire to houses and stealing food

11 from the houses.

12 Q. When exactly were you told this?

13 A. As soon as this man had left Kravica.

14 Q. Why, then, did you not mention that in your statement to the OTP?

15 A. There was no time, and there were a number of people around. We

16 didn't have enough time to really go through it.

17 Q. Do you not agree, Witness, that on that day in Kravica and the

18 surrounding hamlets, before Serbs left Kravica, there had been fierce

19 fighting between the attackers and the various units stationed in Kravica,

20 including the Panthers that you referred to a while ago.

21 A. You mean between those two parties?

22 Q. Yes, that's precisely what I mean. They were firing at one

23 another.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

Page 2888












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Page 2889

1 MS. RICHARDSON: I wanted to object to what counsel has referred

2 to as the witness confirming Panthers were involved. I believe --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He did not confirm this.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: He did not .

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection sustained.

6 Ms. Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. I'll try to rephrase

8 the question.

9 Q. Was there fighting between the attackers and the soldiers who were

10 at Kravica, including the people from Bijeljina that you said had arrived

11 in December 1992?

12 A. I'm not sure what you mean. Between the Muslims and the Serbs?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. In December?

15 Q. Yes. Do you understand the question?

16 A. I don't think so, I'm afraid.

17 Q. I'll repeat the question for you. Is it not true, Witness, that

18 on the 7th of January, the morning of the 7th of January, before the Serb

19 forces, or the people you refer to as people carrying weapons in Kravica,

20 everyone, including the people from Bijeljina, that these people fought

21 the Muslims, the attackers who attacked Kravica?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. When the village was attacked.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: This is all getting very confusing. Let's go

24 through slowly because otherwise it may end up meaning more than one

25 thing.

Page 2890

1 It's being put to you, Mr. Popovic, that on the 7th of January,

2 when the village of Kravica was attacked, okay, the Serbs forces -- the

3 Serb forces had already been fighting the Muslims.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The village had already begun

5 to fight, to defend the village.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's before the attack.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 7th of January, on Christmas

8 Day, when the village was attacked, people went out to the front line to

9 defend the village, and those people who had fled too.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But was there fighting before the attack, or did the

11 fighting start when the attack, or after the attack started?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I know that people

13 left to go to the front line immediately when the attack started,

14 Christmas. That's all I can say.


16 Yes, Madam Vidovic, I think that answers your question. Yes,

17 thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Witness, does that not mean that during this fighting, damage

20 could have been caused to the houses?

21 A. Yes. There was shooting from Marici, shooting at Kravica. The

22 school building around my house, they started firing at Kravica from

23 Marici, at the schoolhouse and the bakery. And when I said that some

24 people were wounded that evening --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait a minute. Shooting from Marici, how far is

Page 2891

1 Marici from Kravica - let's repeat that first - as the crow flies.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the crow flies, about 300 metres.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And when you say there was shooting from Marici,

4 what kind of shooting? Were artillery pieces being used, or was it just

5 small weapons, rifles and that sort of thing?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything was used. Among all that

7 shooting, you couldn't even hear, you couldn't distinguish. It was coming

8 from all sides.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And who was doing this shooting from Marici in the

10 direction of Kravica?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslims.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Could it have been the Serbs themselves who were

13 shooting from Marici?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

16 Yes, Judge Eser.

17 JUDGE ESER: When you told us that there was shooting from Marici,

18 do you mean that the shooting, the shoots -- the shots have been fired in

19 Marici, or do you mean that the shots came from the direction of Marici?

20 Do you see the difference? The first would be that the shots have been

21 fired in Marici to Kravica, or did you mean that the shooting came from

22 the direction of Marici but the shots have been fired closer to Kravica?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Marici fell as soon as it was

24 attacked in the morning. Our defence retreated to Siljkovici. They took

25 Marici up to below OKA. And then they fired from the wood in the

Page 2892

1 direction of Kravica. It was about 50 metres in the direction of Kravica

2 from the wood, from Osoje.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did the Serbs from Kravica return fire? Did the Serbs from

6 Kravica fight the attackers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. In your testimony, or rather, in the statement you

9 made in July 2004 to the Prosecutor, you said that a decision had been

10 made that the Serb army should retreat from Kravica; is this correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On that day, the 7th of January?

13 A. To retreat, yes. They had already been broken up. They had to

14 retreat. Everything was beginning to burn.

15 Q. Please, can you answer my question. Who made this decision?

16 Evidently you knew about the decision, didn't you?

17 A. Nobody made the decision. The village had fallen, it was over.

18 Who would issue a decision about withdrawal when everything had fallen?

19 Jezestica, Kajici, Siljkovici, Marici, Jezero, Brezaci, Mandici.

20 Q. Very well, Witness. In your statement, you said: "We arrived at

21 Opravdici and I saw hills -- I saw down the hills houses burning in

22 Marici, Jezestica, Siljkovici, and Brezak." My question is: Is it

23 possible to see from Opravdici houses burning in Marici, Jezestica,

24 Siljkovici, and Brezak? What is the distance between the hamlet of

25 Opravdici from Marici, Jezestica, and Siljkovici?

Page 2893

1 A. From Marici to Opravdici, as the crow flies, it's not more than a

2 kilometre. Between Opravdici and Siljkovici, there's a kilometre and two

3 or 300 metres. The furthest is Jezestica, and this was about two and a

4 half to three kilometres away. Kajici is right underneath, about a

5 kilometre and a half. And as for Brezak, it's hardly 500 metres, as the

6 crow flies. All the villages that I listed can be seen from Opravdici.

7 Q. Very well. Do you agree that the configuration of the terrain is

8 such that, in the village of Marici, the houses are in a valley?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Where -- just a moment, Witness. Where are the houses in Marici?

11 A. The biggest house in Marici, it's a two-storey house, and you can

12 see it from Kravica, from the school yard, from the center of Kravica,

13 near the community centre, near OKA. From all the places in Kravica you

14 can see this biggest house in Marici, and you can see other buildings

15 around it, the outbuildings.

16 Q. Is it correct that the houses in Marici are in a valley?

17 A. No.

18 Q. No? Very well. Very well.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has answered that question,

20 Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. It's correct, Witness, is it not, that only a few houses in

23 Siljkovici are on the slope facing Opravdici, and that the other houses

24 are on the opposite side of the slope.

25 A. Yes. From Opravdici you can see at least five or six houses.

Page 2894

1 Q. And the other houses?

2 A. The other houses are below them, but you can see the smoke, thick

3 smoke, when they were set on fire.

4 Q. So they're not on the other side of the hill, the other slope?

5 A. There are only two houses from Siljkovici. That's Lazarici,

6 Lazarici, just two houses which you couldn't see from Opravdici, because

7 they're in a valley. But you can see all of Siljkovici.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste time on this, Madam Vidovic. At the

9 end of the day, what is it going to change?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hope we shall see

11 this on the ground, and that's why I'm putting these questions. I

12 apologise, Your Honour, thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Popovic, in your statement, you said that your grandfather,

14 Risto, didn't want to leave Kravica.

15 A. Well, he couldn't. He was 72 years old. He couldn't walk.

16 Q. Thank you. Is it not correct that he remained in Kravica with a

17 machine-gun, and that he was killed shooting at the Muslims from a

18 machine-gun.

19 A. My grandfather?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. My grandfather couldn't see across this room, let alone fire from

22 a machine-gun.

23 Q. Your father fought -- was fighting with the Muslims near the

24 school at Kravica when he was taken prisoner.

25 A. No, that's not correct.

Page 2895

1 Q. What is correct?

2 A. He was fighting at the line in Jezero. And when they started

3 pulling out, he was unable to pull out and he was captured alive in

4 Kravica.

5 Q. Very well. You mentioned that the attackers of Kravica were

6 Muslim forces under the command of Naser Oric. You do not know who

7 ordered the attack on Kravica, do you?

8 A. I don't know that, who ordered the attack on Kravica. But I do

9 know, when I got back to the village --

10 Q. Please, I'll come to that. Just please answer my questions. I'll

11 come to when you returned to the village.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt, but I don't

13 know that the witness -- the completion of his answer would have given

14 additional information with respect to the command, and I'd like the

15 witness to answer.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think that's a fair objection. Would you

17 finish your statement, Witness.

18 You were asked the following question: Very well. You mentioned

19 that the attackers of Kravica were Muslim forces under the command of

20 Naser Oric. You do not know who ordered the attack on Kravica, do you?

21 And you answered: I don't know that, who ordered the attack on Kravica.

22 But I do know, when I got back to the village, and you were then

23 interrupted by Madam Vidovic. Could you please finish that

24 sentence: "But I do know, when I got back to the village ..." What were

25 you going to tell us?

Page 2896

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I got back to the village, on

2 our houses in Kravica, there was graffiti saying "Naser Oric."

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So on the basis of the graffiti saying "Naser Oric," you drew the

6 conclusion that he was in command of that attack?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You had no other reliable information about this?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I will now move on. I will now ask you something about the

11 identification of your late father. You did not recognise your father's

12 body on your own, did you?

13 A. I wasn't there when the autopsy was conducted. I arrived later

14 on. When I got there, I asked to see the doctor --

15 Q. Very well. In fact, Dr. Zoran Stankovic showed you the body and

16 suggested to you that this was the body of your father before you even

17 looked at it; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Moreover, yesterday you said that he suggested to you that you

20 shouldn't even look at the body; isn't that so?

21 A. Yes. He said I should remember my father the way he had been.

22 Q. I will remind you of the statement you made to the Prosecutor this

23 year. In paragraph 19, you said: "When I went to Srebrenica, I was told

24 by the pathologist from Belgrade, who exhumed my father's body, that he

25 had found my father's body and he showed me the body of my father and also

Page 2897

1 explained that there were several fractures in his skull, thoracic cage

2 and arms."

3 You've just told us that you did not attend the exhumation.

4 A. When I came to take over the body, he was in a body bag. The

5 doctor opened it and showed me everything. His front teeth were

6 missing --

7 Q. If somebody said that you identified the body, that would not be

8 correct, would it?

9 A. What, that I --

10 Q. That you recognised, that you identified the body as the body of

11 your father.

12 A. I saw my father because he had a gold tooth.

13 Q. I'll come to that question. Witness --

14 A. Excuse me, let me say this: I recognised it by his trousers. He

15 had the military trousers on, and he was naked to the waist.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, I don't know how you conduct

17 cross-examinations in your country, but let's come down to the bottom of

18 this all.

19 Do you have any doubt at all that the body that you were shown in

20 Srebrenica was that of your father?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the body of my father.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are absolutely sure about this?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sure.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: What makes you so sure?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had a gold tooth; he had his

Page 2898

1 trousers that he had on when he was taken prisoner.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Did he have any other mark, particular mark, that

3 you could see on the basis of which you could identify your father? He

4 had been dead for how long now? When he was shown to you, how much after

5 his death was this? Yesterday you told us that he -- when at least you

6 were told when he died, and now it's how much later that you've seen his

7 body after the exhumation?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1995, in September or October.

9 It was October.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's almost two years later, almost.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will have to put

14 another question to the witness in this connection.

15 Q. You said in your statement to the Prosecutor in 2004 that you

16 recognised your father by his gold teeth. Yesterday you said something

17 different, you said gold tooth. Please, can you describe your father's

18 teeth precisely, as they were before his death?

19 A. My father had one tooth in his upper jaw which was here.

20 [Indicates]. This is where he had a gold tooth.

21 Q. Why, then, did you see gold teeth?

22 A. I didn't say that.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: I just think that this line of questioning

Page 2899

1 regarding the word "tooth" or "teeth" is really not helping.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I honestly don't know where Madam Vidovic thinks she

3 is getting, but anyway, let's proceed.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I respond?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not see any record of the

7 on-site investigation. We have contradictory statements. This witness

8 said something different in his previous statement, and it's my duty to

9 clarify this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. Let's proceed. Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, is it not correct that many people in that area have gold

13 teeth? This is not something exceptional.

14 A. How do I know who has gold teeth? I know that my father had a

15 gold tooth, and I know it was there. [Indicates].

16 Q. Very well. Is it correct that many people who were killed were

17 wearing uniforms?

18 A. I don't know whether this is correct or not.

19 Q. Very well. I'll move on, then.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I can assure you, Madam Vidovic, that the witness is

21 not going back home with any doubts as to whether the person he saw on

22 that table there was his father or not. You haven't changed anything, and

23 I think we've lost a good quarter of an hour on this matter.

24 Let's proceed.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2900

1 Q. You said that the pathologist gave you a piece of paper found on

2 your father's body; is this true?

3 A. It's true.

4 Q. You said that you kept this piece of paper until recently and that

5 you lost it.

6 A. I said I couldn't find it when I was getting ready to come here.

7 Q. It's not true, in fact, that this piece of paper was ever given to

8 you.

9 A. Yes, it was given to me.

10 Q. It's true that Dr. Stankovic never gave you that piece of paper.

11 A. That he didn't give it to me?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He's answered that question. Again, please, I will

13 not allow you to put the same question three times or four times, Madam

14 Vidovic. He's answered that question, and Dr. Stankovic will be coming in

15 any case and you can put the question to him as well.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 Q. Were someone else to say that this piece of paper had been given

18 to someone else and not true, then it wouldn't be true, I guess, would

19 it?

20 A. I was the one who kept this piece of paper.

21 Q. Very well. Nego Eric was Slavisa Eric's grandfather. They were

22 from Kravica, weren't they?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were not telling the truth when you were describing the body

25 of Nego Eric from Kravica and when you said that he had a piece of wire

Page 2901

1 tied around his neck, as you said in your statement of 2004. And you said

2 yesterday a piece of iron.

3 A. Well, it's the same, where I come from, a piece of wire or a piece

4 of iron.

5 Q. Very well. Is it true at all that Nego Eric had anything - wire

6 or a piece of iron - around his neck at all?

7 A. It is true.

8 Q. What is true is that the cause of death of Nego Eric was that he

9 was killed by a firearm; is that not correct?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer that question. How can he confirm this

11 to you, Madam Vidovic?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness stated yesterday that he

13 was the one who found Nego Eric's body, and I have my reasons for asking

14 this question.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: He cannot certify the cause of death, can he? He

16 cannot certify the cause of death.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours. I

18 apologise.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I still know people that were shot in the head -- in

20 the body and they still carried the bullets inside and they are still

21 alive today, so ...

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Yesterday you were shown photographs of some houses. Would I be

24 right in stating that some of the houses that you spoke about yesterday

25 and which you identified were not in Kravica at all but in some other

Page 2902

1 villages; Kajici, for example?

2 A. No. All of those houses are, in fact, in Kravica. Kravica,

3 Grujic's house -- well, if you show me a photograph, then I can tell you

4 again, perhaps.

5 Q. Can you please just explain where Stanoje Grujic's house is.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like to see the ERN -- one moment. The ERN,

7 yes. For the record, the witness is being shown a photo which bears the

8 ERN number 0108-7886, and which was tendered into evidence yesterday.

9 Yes, you can now answer the question, please.

10 A. Yes. This house belongs to that person. It's between Kravica and

11 Kajici.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. May I ask you something else now, Witness. How many houses were

14 there in the local commune of Kravica, including the hamlets that you

15 marked? What's your estimate?

16 A. Roughly speaking?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Including all the hamlets, I can't say exactly, but I think

19 between 800 and 1.000 houses, including all of the hamlets.

20 Q. Very well. We only saw some of those houses yesterday, didn't we?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Bearing in mind the houses that you were shown in these

23 photographs, you did not, in fact, see that any of those had been damaged

24 on the 7th of January, 1993, did you?

25 A. The house that I've just looked at, it burned down on the 7th of

Page 2903

1 January.

2 Q. Witness, what I'm asking is whether you personally, in fact, saw

3 the house burn on the 7th of January, with your very own eyes. That's

4 what I'm asking.

5 A. I was in no position to see. I had fled. I saw smoke rising from

6 the village.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. So you saw those houses on about the 17th

8 or 18th of March, 1993, didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. As far as I could gather from your testimony, you were not present

11 in the area between the 7th of January, 1993, and the 17th of March, 1993,

12 were you?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Do you not agree with me that anything might have happened in the

15 meantime? Anyone could have caused damage to those houses, couldn't they,

16 during that period of time?

17 A. I saw all those houses from up on the hill. I saw them burn from

18 Opravdici, from Ocenovici. You could see Kravica clearly from there.

19 Q. My question to you is, did you, in fact, see precisely those

20 houses that you identified while they were burning?

21 A. You mean personally, with my own eyes?

22 Q. Yes, that's what I mean.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you. It is true, isn't it, that in this period

25 of time, between the 7th of January, 1993, and the 17th of March, 1993,

Page 2904

1 civilians were allowed to take construction material from those houses in

2 order to repair their own houses, weren't they? Do you know anything

3 about that?

4 A. Between the 7th of January and the 16th -- sorry, can you repeat

5 the dates, please.

6 Q. Between the 7th of January and the 17th of March.

7 A. But Kravica had not even been liberated. How do you mean?

8 Q. I don't mean Serb civilians only, I mean civilians. Generally

9 speaking, is it possible that construction material was being taken off

10 those houses and carried off by people? I'm not speaking about Serbs

11 only. Muslims civilians, for example, to repair their own houses. That's

12 my question. Do you understand that?

13 A. I know nothing about that. I know there was smoke rising.

14 Kravica was all in smoke. I'm not sure whether they were taking anything

15 or not.

16 Q. Very well. Witness, you were a soldier with the army of

17 Republika Srpska; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You do know that Serbian forces fought fiercely in this area in

20 January, February, and March 1993, in order to regain control of this

21 area, do you not?

22 A. I don't know. I wasn't in the area when this was being done.

23 Q. Where were you, in fact, Witness, throughout this period of time,

24 between the 7th of January, 1993, and the 17th of March, 1993?

25 A. After Kravica fell, I left for Ljubovija. I left Ljubovija to go

Page 2905

1 to Sabac to stay with my aunt in May. And I stayed there until Kravica

2 was liberated, and then four or five days later I came back and --

3 Q. Very well. Thank you. How was Kravica liberated? Was it

4 liberated in combat?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. That means you took no part in combat there; is that your

7 testimony?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Based on the photographs that you saw, was it possible for you to

10 draw any conclusion as to when these photographs were taken? Do you have

11 any knowledge of that at all?

12 A. You mean the photos of the houses that were shown to me yesterday?

13 Q. Yes. I'm asking you this question because my understanding was

14 you said some houses were repaired, or some houses were added to. Do you

15 have any idea when those photos were taken?

16 A. I think it was probably summertime. The grass was tall and the

17 corn had grown too; therefore, it couldn't have possibly been wintertime.

18 Perhaps 1994.

19 Q. Can you please look at one of the photographs from this set of

20 photographs, P459, the photograph that ends in 898.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness is being shown photo

22 0108-7898.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, you are familiar with this building. You said it was the

25 OKA yesterday. It's the warehouse, isn't it?

Page 2906

1 A. This was a farmer's cooperative, OKA.

2 Q. Witness, is it not possible that this damage came about following

3 the genocide in July 1995?

4 A. How on earth should I know that?

5 Q. Do you not agree with me, or did you perhaps hear, that between

6 1.000 and 1.500 Muslims were murdered inside that building using different

7 kinds of weapons, including shells? Is that something that you heard

8 about?

9 A. I don't know. I heard that something had, indeed, happened there,

10 but I don't know what.

11 Q. The reason I'm asking you this is, could this damage have been

12 caused by shells exploding inside the building?

13 A. I don't know.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, move to the next question, because

15 this is going to be resolved when the person who took the photo will be

16 produced as a witness.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Yesterday you were shown a photograph in which you identified

19 Mr. Oric on horseback.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] P460, can the witness please be

21 shown P460.

22 Q. You were asked by the OTP to look at the weather conditions

23 reflected in the photograph. Your reply was: "I can see snow, so this

24 might have been taken in January."

25 I put it to you, Witness, that it might as well have been February

Page 2907

1 or March. It is true, isn't it, Witness, that back where we come from,

2 snow sometimes lingers on until as late as April or May. It's true, isn't

3 it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Therefore, you can't state with certainty that this photograph was

6 taken in January, of all months.

7 A. I'm not sure what I should tell you. I know this is Kravica, this

8 is the center of Kravica, it's all right here. I'm not sure if this was

9 taken on the 7th of January or February. How on earth should I know?

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I could

12 conclude this set of questions here, and we could have a break.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a 25-minute break, starting from

14 now. Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, we've been talking about the 7th of January, 1993, so

20 far. Your involvement in the war does not end there, on the 7th of

21 January, 1993, does it?

22 A. Yes, that's true.

23 Q. From the 7th of January, 1993 onwards, you worked in different

24 sections of the Bratunac Brigade, did you not?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, will you bear with me,

Page 2908

1 please. My questions have a lot to do with the credibility of this

2 particular witness and his potential bias.

3 Q. For a while you worked as a courier in the command of the Bratunac

4 Brigade; is that not true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it not true that after that, you were assigned to the sabotage

7 and reconnaissance platoon of the Bratunac Brigade?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You were never a member of the sabotage and reconnaissance platoon

10 of the Bratunac Brigade, is that your testimony, Witness, throughout 1995.

11 A. The military police?

12 Q. Very well, Witness. That is the more important part, really. It

13 is true, then, that in May 1995, you were transferred and became a member

14 of the military police unit of the Bratunac Brigade.

15 A. Yes, that's true.

16 Q. And you remained with the military police of the Bratunac Brigade

17 until the end of the war, didn't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. Judge Eser's notebook is

20 not -- got stuck; in other words, and he's not receiving any transcript

21 now, any transcript at all.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Is it working now?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but he can follow along on mine.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, you were a member of this brigade in July 1995, were you

Page 2909

1 not; and later, when members of this brigade killed thousands of captured

2 Muslims in the area, were you not?

3 A. I was a military policeman in July 1995.

4 Q. Mirko Jankovic was your commander, wasn't he?

5 A. Yes. My komandir. Komandir.

6 Q. You took part personally in the massacre of Muslims, especially in

7 July of 1995, did you not, in the Srebrenica enclave when over 8.000

8 Muslims were executed. Is that not true?

9 A. No, it's not true.

10 Q. On the 12th of July, 1995, together with a group of military

11 policemen of the Bratunac Brigade, at Potocari, in the DutchBat compound

12 where thousands of inhabitants of Srebrenica tried to find safety, you

13 were separating the men from the women and children, were you not?

14 A. No. We were at the checkpoint in Potocari near the UNPROFOR base.

15 Q. You were at the base checkpoint on the 12th of July, 1995, were

16 you not?

17 A. Yes, at the checkpoint in Potocari.

18 Q. Thank you. On that occasion male children too were being

19 separated, sometimes even those that were as young as 13 years of age, if

20 they were able-bodied; is that not correct?

21 A. It wasn't us, the military police, who were carrying out this

22 separation.

23 Q. Is it not true that many of these people were killed in the

24 immediate vicinity of the DutchBat compound, the UNPROFOR base, and that

25 many women were raped there?

Page 2910

1 A. No.

2 Q. You were, in fact, one of the military policemen who were

3 separating men, putting them on buses and taking them from Potocari to

4 Bratunac. Many of them were killed along the way, weren't they?

5 A. No, it's not true that they were killed. It's true that the

6 military police escorted those Muslims from the checkpoint in Potocari to

7 the school, but it is not true that anyone was killed along the way.

8 Q. In other words, you deported those Muslims from Potocari to

9 Bratunac, did you not?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: There was another part of the question which you

12 didn't answer, Mr. Popovic. Ms. Vidovic asked you in the first place:

13 You were, in fact, one of the military policemen who were separating men,

14 putting them on buses. Were you part of the military policemen who were

15 separating men? That's to start -- that's question number 1.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you part of the military policemen putting

18 these men on buses?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So what was your involvement in all this

21 transportation of men, as you described, from Potocari to the school?

22 What was your involvement? How do you fit in the whole story?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our role was -- we were from 50 to

24 100 metres away from the place where they were being separated. Our role

25 was to stand beside the road. And the Muslims passing by us boarded

Page 2911

1 buses. Then we got onto the buses and escorted them from Bratunac to

2 Potocari - that was the role - to the school.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You and a group of about 10 other policemen stayed to secure the

6 Branko Radicevic primary school in Bratunac in which a large group of

7 Muslims was put in the night between the 12th and the 13th of July, 1995;

8 is this correct?

9 A. Yes, it's correct that the military police were there securing

10 that with other armies.

11 Q. Were you there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Popovic, do you recall that you made a statement to the

14 Bratunac police about these events? Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher now to

17 put on the ELMO the statement by Mr. Nikola Popovic of the 28th of August,

18 2003, to the Ministry of the Interior in Bijeljina, the police station

19 there. And I ask the witness to look at page 1 of this statement. Page 1

20 gives you details.

21 Q. Then, Witness, please look at page 2, where it says, "Statement,"

22 and then look at line 8, and I will quote: "I remember that on the 12th

23 of July, 1995, I was at the Potocari checkpoint. That day the citizens of

24 Srebrenica came to the Dutch Battalion compound in huge numbers, and I

25 think that many Muslims were there, I think 4.000 to 5.000 at the

Page 2912

1 checkpoint in Potocari. We, the military police, had the task of taking

2 in and providing security for these people, together with members of the

3 Dutch Battalion. Since, at the time, I was a new member of the military

4 police, I didn't know my colleagues except by sight. There were 10 or 15

5 of us, members of the military police, there. That same day we were

6 ordered to separate the women, children, and elderly, who, according to

7 plan, were supposed to be transferred by bus and freight vehicles from

8 that checkpoint towards Kladanj, that is, to Muslim-controlled territory,

9 and we acted in accordance with that order."

10 Witness, this was your statement at the time. Now you have just

11 told us that you personally did not carry out this separation.

12 A. That's correct. I personally did not carry out the separation of

13 people.

14 Q. But you said in your statement that you acted compliant to the

15 orders.

16 A. Yes. The military police, we were all there with UNPROFOR. We

17 were together with UNPROFOR.

18 Q. Very well. On the same page you said: "I and other members of

19 the military police, about 10 of us, remained to secure the elementary

20 school, that is, the prisoners, until the next day."

21 This is your statement, is it not? You signed it.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Popovic, you were at the scene of the crime in Potocari, and

24 then at the primary school in Bratunac, weren't you?

25 A. No.

Page 2913

1 Q. So your testimony is that you weren't, even after seeing this

2 statement? Are you claiming that nothing happened in Potocari on the 12th

3 of July, that there were no murders, no rapes?

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I just --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Just for a moment, I'd like to object to this

7 compound question. I think there are at least three questions by the

8 Defence. Maybe we could have him answer each one.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree with Ms. Richardson. Could you please

10 go through these questions one by one, Madam Vidovic, please.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Were you, on the 12th of July, 1995, at the scene of a crime in

13 Potocari? Were you present at this separation of men and women?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's two questions. Separating men and women is

15 not a crime in itself. So let's go through it.

16 With regard to the separation, I think he has answered the

17 question more than once, and he has denied having taken part in the

18 separating. So if you are asking him now whether he was, on the 12th of

19 July, 1995, at the scene of a crime in Potocari, you need to describe to

20 him the crime that you are referring to, and then you ask him whether he

21 was present at the scene of the crime, of that particular crime.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll put a

23 very specific question.

24 Q. I asked you whether you were among the 10 or so persons securing

25 the Branko Radicevic primary school in the night between the 12th and the

Page 2914

1 13th of July, 1995.

2 A. Yes. The military police secured that school.

3 Q. That same night, in the sight of many people there, together with

4 another person in the school, you seriously mistreated an imprisoned

5 teacher from the secondary school in Bratunac, Mr. Sirucic. Then you

6 dragged him out of the school, and since then he has been missing.

7 A. Who, me?

8 Q. Yes, you, sir.

9 A. No.

10 Q. It's true, is it not, that an authorised person from the Bratunac

11 Brigade conducted investigations about 30.000 German marks and gold

12 belonging to the teacher, Mr. Sirucic. Do you know anything about that?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know that this investigation showed that you, with

15 Mr. Carlton from Kravica, a student of Mr. Sirucic, took him to the nearby

16 village of Voljevica, forced him to show you where he had buried 30.000

17 German marks and some gold, and the investigation concluded that you dug

18 up this money and divided it among yourself; is this correct?

19 A. No, I have no idea. I don't know anything about this.

20 Q. On the following day, the 13th of July, 1995 --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we move to the following day, do you have

22 these documents relating to this investigation, Madam Vidovic?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will have them very

24 soon. I have reliable information about this, and we will present this

25 evidence in the course of the trial.

Page 2915

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now have some other documents

3 to put to the witness.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. On the next day, the 13th of July, 1995, you were in the OKA

7 warehouse, the warehouse we saw just a while ago, and there, in the

8 presence of Jovan Nikolic, the then director of the warehouse who was

9 previously the commander of the Kravica Territorial Defence, participated

10 personally in the massacre of between 1.000 and 1.500 Muslims in that

11 warehouse; is this correct?

12 A. God forbid.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, I don't like the way this is all being

14 conducted.

15 Were you ever summoned by anyone and asked questions about

16 Mr. Sirucic and the allegation that you had taken part in the recovery of

17 30.000 German marks and some gold? Were you ever questioned on this by

18 anyone?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is the first time I've

20 heard this. I was all over the federation working with livestock, in

21 Tuzla, in Sarajevo. I'm still working all over the place. And nobody

22 ever has pointed a finger at me.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So you've never been questioned about this matter.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. Never.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So we have an investigation, I suppose, Madam

Page 2916

1 Vidovic, that comes to a conclusion that the accused -- that the witness

2 was involved, and this investigation supposedly will show that he was

3 interviewed and really investigated. Okay, let's proceed.

4 We are at the OKA now, and he has denied that he was ever involved

5 in the massacre of 1.000 to 1.500 Muslims, together or in the presence of

6 Jovan Nikolic. Is Jovan Nikolic still alive?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, he is, and he was

8 on the witness list. However, he has been withdrawn. He was withdrawn

9 just before the start of the trial.

10 I would now like to ask the usher to put on the ELMO document -- a

11 document which is a statement.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: This document -- one moment, Madam Vidovic.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This statement to the Republika Srpska ministry, you

15 want to tender it in evidence?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be marked as Defence Exhibit D124. Thank

18 you.

19 Yes, let's proceed.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would now like to ask

21 the usher to put on the ELMO the statement on facts and the actual plea

22 agreement in the Momir Nikolic case, 02-65-T. And the relevant part is

23 paragraph 9, and it relates to the murder of 1.000 to 1.500 Muslims in a

24 warehouse in Kravica. And it's on page 5 of both versions, the second

25 paragraph from the bottom.

Page 2917

1 Q. And I quote: "I established that among those who participated in

2 these murders were: Nikola Popovic from Kravica, who was attached to the

3 Bratunac Brigade Military police; Milovan Matic, who was attached to the

4 1st Infantry Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade; Ilija Nikolic, who was

5 attached to the 1st Infantry Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade; Raso

6 Milanovic, who was the commander of the Police Unit in Kravica. I also

7 found out that the director of the warehouse, Jovan Nikolic, witnessed the

8 execution."

9 I will put a question to you in connection with this, Witness.

10 You played a leading role in these murders, didn't you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Witness --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we are entering into delicate

14 territory here.

15 Witness, under our Rules, if you are asked questions, and if you

16 answer -- if you are asked questions which, if answered by you truthfully

17 and fully, would expose you or could expose you to criminal proceedings

18 either here or elsewhere, you have a right ask us, the three Judges here,

19 to be exempted from answering that question. So if there are any

20 questions put to you that you feel, by answering them, you could expose

21 yourself to criminal proceedings, you have that right, and you are free to

22 draw our attention to it. Did I make myself clear?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I --

Page 2918

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Let me put a question to you. Have you heard that some people

3 survived the massacre in OKA?

4 A. I don't know that. No, I haven't. I'm glad if they survived.

5 Let them come and point a finger at me.

6 Q. Witness, please answer my questions. In the early autumn of 1995,

7 the bodies of these people which had been buried with bulldozers in a mass

8 grave were exhumed, and then they were moved and re-buried in another

9 location. You participated in this as well, didn't you?

10 A. No. That was the security of the military police, when that grave

11 was dug, and I wasn't there then. I left the police when that was done.

12 I was expelled from the police because, before that, I was at Trnovo, at

13 the terrain, and we did not perform the tasks that were given to us.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I move on to my next

15 question, I tender this document and ask that it be given an exhibit

16 number.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this will be D125.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I'll ask you something else now. Do you remember that before this

20 Tribunal, under oath, you testified in the case against Blagojevic and

21 Jokic on the 23rd of June, 2004, as a Defence witness.

22 A. Yes. You have my statement.

23 Q. Allow me, Witness, please. You were then asked what you were

24 doing on the 12th of July, 1995. You were asked the same questions I

25 asked you today, and you replied that you had had a day off and that you

Page 2919

1 were playing football in Milici.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to page 11072 of the

3 transcript, the statement of Mr. Popovic of the 23rd of June, 2004.

4 Q. I will quote from this statement: "On the 12th --"

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We need to know the line, page, and

6 everything before we can follow you, Madam Vidovic. Which page are you

7 referring us to?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] On page 11072; the line is 19.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we have that page on the ELMO so that the

10 interpreters can follow, please.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The Defence team asked you the following question: "On the 12th

13 of July, the next day, could you please tell us what you did."

14 And your answer was: "On the 12th of July, I was off. It was our

15 big holiday, St. Peter's Day, so I was off.

16 Question: All right. Well, what did you do on your day off?"

17 And your answer was: "We had a soccer game."

18 Please allow me, Witness. You spoke under oath then. What you

19 said was not true, was it?

20 A. First of all, listen, you have the rotation schedule for the

21 military police in relation to that period of time. If you look at that,

22 you will see exactly what we were doing at the time.

23 Q. I showed you a statement you made to the Bratunac police a moment

24 ago in relation to the 12th of July. I asked you questions about that.

25 But now I will draw your attention to something else. You were also asked

Page 2920

1 by Defence counsel at the time whether, on the 28th of August, 2003, you

2 gave a truthful account of events at the police station in Bratunac, which

3 you confirmed. You confirmed that the signature was, indeed, your own; is

4 that not correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Which page, and which line, Madam Vidovic, please?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just add a

8 couple of words in connection with this, because the same questions were

9 asked by the OTP, and then I'll give you the page reference.

10 Q. After that the Prosecutor asked you as follows: "When you gave a

11 statement to the police, was it a truthful statement?"

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't we have a right to be able to follow you while

14 you are reading from the statement, please, or from this transcript? So

15 could you please give us the page and the line number.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 11099; 23, 24, and 25, the

17 lines.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Your answer was that your account was truthful. Mr. Popovic, this

21 was a statement dated August 2003 which you gave to the Bratunac police,

22 and you confirmed that the statement was truthful. Even so, the statement

23 you gave under oath, the testimony, was a different one when you testified

24 in the Blagojevic case, was it not?

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour.

Page 2921

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not sure what counsel is

3 referring to at this time.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think she's referring to that in the statement of

5 the 28th of August, he says one thing, while she's suggesting that on that

6 day, he was, according to his testimony in Blagojevic, playing football,

7 having his day out celebrating St. Peter's Day. I think that's what she

8 means.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Okay. I just wanted clarification --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's what she means. I mean, that's how I

11 understood it.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. Precisely.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you tell us what you did on the 12th of May --

14 12th of July, 1995, please?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 12th of July, I can't say for

16 sure. I know about the 13th. The 12th was --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Was the 12th St. Peter's Day, the 12th of July?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It was St. Peter's Day. And do you remember

20 celebrating St. Peter's Day by having a day off, on which day you even

21 played a soccer match in Milici, or wherever it is?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was in Milici. And I

23 returned to the military police building where I spent the night. The

24 next day I was in Potocari. On the 13th, it was Potocari.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically we are saying that during the 12th,

Page 2922

1 until 8.00 in the evening, he was having his day off. After 8.00, he was

2 in the -- back to his post, in other words, where he was stationed.

3 Yes, go ahead.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the football match was over, it

5 was about 4.00 or 5.00, I returned to the military police building. I

6 spent the night there. And the next day I was assigned to Potocari. The

7 Muslims came outside the UNPROFOR base in Potocari in great numbers, on

8 the 13th, and from there transferred to Bratunac. On the 14th, the convoy

9 left for Zvornik.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 Yes, Madam Vidovic, I hand him back to you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. A while ago, in answer to one of my questions, did you not say

14 that you spent the night between the 12th and the 13th of June, 1995

15 securing the Bratunac primary school where these people were staying? And

16 now you're saying something different.

17 A. That was the evening of the 13th. On the 14th, the convoy set out

18 to Zvornik.

19 Q. But, Mr. Popovic, not only is that what you told us today, but you

20 also told the same thing to the Bratunac police.

21 A. Yes. I told the Bratunac police about the 12th in Potocari;

22 however, it was on the 13th. And my statement was that I was in Potocari

23 on the 13th when the separation took place. On the 14th, the convoy left

24 for Zvornik.

25 Q. Very well. I'll move on. In that same case, under oath, on

Page 2923

1 page 11071, line 11 through 13, you said: "A military bakery was set up,

2 and this is where I worked until the fall of Kravica in 1993."

3 When asked by the OTP yesterday, and I asked you the same question

4 later on, you were not telling the whole truth, were you? You said that

5 the bakery was catering for the local population. My question to you was,

6 was it a military bakery, and your answer was no, it was a bakery catering

7 for the local population. Here under oath you said something completely

8 different; is that not true?

9 A. The bakery was for Kravica, and I worked there. That's all I

10 know.

11 Q. You were not telling the truth, Mr. Popovic, were you? You were

12 not telling the truth when you told us that it was a bakery for the local

13 population. It was a military bakery, in actual fact, was it not, which

14 you stated correctly in your testimony in the Blagojevic case.

15 A. It was catering for the entire village. How should I know whether

16 it was military or civilian? But the whole village was using the services

17 of that bakery.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, I hate to interrupt as much as I can,

19 but you're dealing with three professional Judges. Do you honestly

20 believe that by suggesting this to the witness, you could ever convince us

21 that the witness is not telling the truth? Forget other things. But do

22 you think that you are going to suggest to us or make us -- convince us

23 that he is not saying the truth simply because it may not be clear whether

24 this bakery was catering for the whole village or whether it was catering

25 for the army or whether it was catering for this or whether it was

Page 2924

1 catering for that. We are dealing with much more stronger stuff and much

2 more important stuff. Let's not waste time.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: If you had 11, 12 jurors here, I don't know, it

7 varies from system, and you were trying to impress the jurors, but it

8 doesn't work like that when who is deciding are the Judges.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please believe me that

10 my only intention was to demonstrate that the witness quite decidedly, in

11 fact, stated that a military bakery had been set up in Kravica. This is a

12 question which we believe to be extremely relevant, and that was the

13 reason I asked the question, because the witness' answer was entirely

14 different, even when I repeated the question.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you tell me what changes.

16 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: I know we're short on time, and I don't want to

18 belabour the issue and the point you've already made. But this is not an

19 inconsistency. The witness testified previously --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Leave that, Ms. Richardson. Let's not blow it

21 beyond all proportions and reasonable proportions. We are just not on the

22 same wavelength. I'm making it clear, we have this case in which your

23 client is charged with particular events, and that's what we are going to

24 concentrate upon. And a witness can be believed in whole, in part, or not

25 at all. In other words, even if there is some inconsistency, even if

Page 2925

1 there is contradiction with regard to what this bakery was, whether it was

2 a communal, whether it was private, whether it was military, whether it

3 was communal and then it became military, I mean, at the end of the day,

4 even if he is -- if he is not consistent on it, at the end of the day,

5 does it mean that he is not telling us the truth on other issues?

6 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I make one point. The point is not

7 an inconsistency, but if a witness is consistently trying to underplay,

8 understate, and minimise the military presence in Kravica, and that that's

9 a thread which runs throughout his testimony, that's something which is

10 very much important for Your Honours to be aware of. And that's --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, he has already testified that he himself

12 was called and his assignment was in the bakery. He has already testified

13 that there were troops who, at a certain point in time, came and gave a

14 hand in the bakery. He already testified that the bakery was catering for

15 many, including troops. And it goes on and on and on and on. You think

16 we are going to care much about this particular matter that you have been

17 dealing with? We are more interested in what is the crux of the case,

18 whether the Prosecution, in other words, has proven the charges as they

19 relate to Kravica, whether they have proven the charges as they relate to

20 the death of his father, and that's it. We are not interested in all the

21 other events. I mean, they may be relevant insofar as they may indicate

22 whether we can believe this gentleman or not.

23 MR. JONES: Your Honour, indeed --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But if you honestly believe that this thing about

25 the bakery is going to swing us right or left, you're pretty wrong.

Page 2926

1 MR. JONES: Of course not, Your Honour. Of course we're not

2 making a big thing of a bakery as such. We thought that Your Honours

3 might be interested to see a pattern whereby a witness consistently

4 understates the military presence in Kravica, when the charges relate to

5 absence of military justification for an attack, you might bear that in

6 mind when considering this witness' testimony, that he is consistently now

7 trying to downplay the military presence. That's the point, Your Honour,

8 and obviously we needn't dwell on it any longer.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to comment on that. Obviously I also

10 remind you that he said that on that day they were cooking 50 pigs which

11 was supposed to go also -- not just to the community but also the troops.

12 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm going to respond to that. I

14 believe the witness has been pretty forthcoming in the military presence,

15 and I disagree that he's --

16 MR. JONES: We don't need the Prosecution's comments on the

17 witness. That's ridiculous.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a comment -- I mean, the whole issue is not

19 to entertain comments on whether the witness is -- from the Prosecution,

20 whether the witness is truthful, reliable, or not. That is another matter

21 which we will decide.

22 What I'm trying to explain is let's not waste time, and let's

23 distinguish between the chaff and the wheat and concentrate on the wheat,

24 not on the chaff.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the purpose my

Page 2927

1 questions was merely to establish the credibility of this particular

2 witness.

3 Thank you very much, Your Honours. I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Re-examination, Ms. Richardson?

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Very briefly, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 Re-examined by Ms. Richardson:

7 Q. Mr. Popovic, this is not the first time you've heard about these

8 allegations of your involvement in Kravica.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Excuse me, what involvement in Kravica are you

10 talking about?

11 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll rephrase that, Your Honour.

12 Q. The Defence asked whether or not you were present and were

13 involved in crimes committed in Kravica in July of 1995, and I believe

14 this is not the first time you've heard about this allegation.

15 A. Yes, this is not the first time.

16 Q. And you testified previously before this Tribunal, and you were

17 asked about those crimes and you denied that you were involved or present.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

19 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may. The Prosecution has accepted

20 in a statement of facts an acceptance of responsibility which it has

21 agreed with Momir Nikolic and the Office of the Prosecutor --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So what?

23 MR. JONES: -- that this witness has been involved in crimes. If

24 the Prosecution wishes to take a different position, then Carla Del Ponte

25 herself should come here and the Trial Chamber in Momir Nikolic should be

Page 2928

1 alerted that they have changed their position. They are estopped from

2 taking this point.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, I'm sure you know that what another

4 indictee or accused says in relation to another person --

5 MR. JONES: Your Honour, the Prosecution has accepted that this

6 witness is involved in killings.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But they have accepted it as Momir Nikolic's version

8 of events.

9 MR. JONES: No. They've accepted it as part of a plea bargain

10 which is taken into account --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So what? On the basis of that, in other words, on

12 the basis of that, we can bring this person and condemn him outright.

13 [The accused stands up]

14 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You sit down. You sit down. You sit down. You sit

16 down. You sit down. And if you behave like that, I will have to take

17 steps against you.

18 [The accused stands up]

19 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't given you the floor. I haven't given you

21 the floor.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May we have a short break, Your

23 Honours, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We will not have a break for the time being,

25 Ms. Vidovic. We will have a break later on, and you will explain to the

Page 2929

1 accused that if he does that, I will have him restrained. I will have him

2 restrained. I will not hesitate for a moment. I will not allow anyone to

3 behave like that.

4 [The accused stands up]

5 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I want his -- unless I give him permission to speak,

7 to address the Court -- exactly, okay. I will cut off his microphone in

8 any case, if he tries to speak without my authorisation. And if he speaks

9 without my authorisation, I don't want anything on the transcript.

10 Mr. Oric, if you behave like that, I will have you restrained, and

11 you know what having you restrained means.

12 Yes, Mr. Jones, what another person, what another accused has said

13 in relation to this witness here has got nothing binding as regards this

14 witness.

15 MR. JONES: My submission is that the Prosecution is estopped from

16 taking this position.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The Prosecution may have, not may have, certainly

18 accepted the declaration of Momir Nikolic as a statement of facts that,

19 according to him, happened on the events that he was making the statement

20 about, but that's about it. It's very convenient for the Prosecution to

21 agree. I can't imagine the Prosecution not agreeing to anything that was

22 stated there.

23 MR. JONES: Precisely --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't nail the accused or make him a liar if he

25 says, No, I was not involved in those events.

Page 2930

1 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. But I fear for the interests of

2 justice, if the Prosecution is going to chop and change in each case.

3 These are important matters of the killings of thousands of people, and

4 surely the Prosecution should be consistent in the --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Momir Nikolic could have mentioned anyone, as far as

6 I'm concerned. At that point in time, do you mean to say that the

7 Prosecution has no right to question these persons and say, This is what

8 others have said about you? What is your position? And this is what is

9 happening now. Do you think that the Prosecution would not have accepted

10 and they would have told Mr. Nikolic, Now first we check with Mr. Popovic,

11 next we check with Mr. X and with Mr. Y whether it's true that they were

12 involved in these killings on such and such a day, and then we will decide

13 whether to accept -- if someone is saying these killings took place, these

14 persons were involved, I came to know about it, I was involved in this

15 way, I was involved in that way, others were involved in this way and

16 involved in that way, do you expect the Prosecution to say, We will not

17 accept those?

18 MR. JONES: It's a matter for them. But once they have taken that

19 position, they are estopped from taking a different position. They should

20 review the matter with the Trial Chamber which heard the case, they should

21 review the matter with Momir Nikolic --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: According to you, then, anyone who has been

23 mentioned by Momir Nikolic must necessarily be prosecuted, charged and

24 brought before this Tribunal by the Prosecutor because there is no

25 question that what is mentioned by Mr. Nikolic can be untrue.

Page 2931

1 MR. JONES: No, it's not that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The legal argument is quite clear.

3 MR. JONES: I'm sure they've promised immunity in any event to

4 this witness. My point is that --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That is a suggestion which I will now ask the

6 Prosecutor to make an announcement or a declaration upon.

7 MR. JONES: Right. We were going to ask the witness. We were cut

8 off before asking that question.

9 If I may, Your Honour, as I said, it's a question of estoppel.

10 But if the Prosecution has taken a position in one case, there is a

11 collateral estoppel in our case.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no estoppel. I am sorry, you are mixing

13 the two issues completely. You are mixing the two issues completely. If

14 an indictee, if an accused, if a sentenced person makes a statement

15 involving others, involving others, it doesn't mean that the

16 Prosecution -- even if it is accepted by the Prosecution, it is accepted

17 for the purpose and in relation only to that accused.

18 MR. JONES: But, Your Honour --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But not to others.

20 MR. JONES: In interest -- Your Honours have referred in the past

21 to the interests of truth and reconciliation of this Tribunal. If the

22 Prosecution in one case says, Yes, Nikola Popovic was involved in

23 killings; in another case they say, no, he's a perfectly decent, truthful

24 witness; in another case they say --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, you're mixing things up. What the

Page 2932

1 Prosecution said in the Momir Nikolic case is that they accepted the

2 declaration of Momir Nikolic that these events happened on such and such a

3 day, and that these or those persons were involved in those events. Punto

4 basta, that's it. It starts from there and it finishes there.

5 MR. JONES: I just feel that truth and reconciliation --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You can't move it from that to another case and, on

7 the basis of it, either hold the witness responsible or bar the

8 Prosecution from putting questions to the witness.

9 MR. JONES: You have my submissions, Your Honours, and I won't

10 pursue it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe there was a question about

13 immunity or any promises made to this witness, and I would just like to

14 state for the record that there were none, in fact.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's number one.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: I would like to continue with my re-direct to the

17 witness about whether --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, no, no, I'm sorry, let me take it a little bit

19 further.

20 Has the witness been interviewed or interrogated by the

21 Prosecution in relation to those events?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: He has not, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He has not. I cannot ask you why he hasn't. Is he

24 a suspect?

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time he is not a suspect.

Page 2933

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may proceed.


3 Q. Mr. Popovic, you testified previously that you -- when I

4 said "previously," I mean when you came to the Tribunal in the Blagojevic

5 case and you testified that you were not, in fact, involved in these

6 crimes committed in Kravica; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And have you been charged by any local -- by the local authorities

9 in Bosnia for these crimes committed in Kravica?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, with respect to the military vehicle that you observed in

12 Kravica on the day of the attack, you said that this vehicle belonged to

13 20 soldiers from Bijeljina; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember if this vehicle was operable on the day of the

16 attack? Was it being used during the attack?

17 A. No. It stayed where it had been parked. There was no one to

18 start the engine running.

19 Q. And finally, with respect to the picture you were shown and where

20 you pointed out that Naser Oric was sitting on a horse, and with respect

21 to the snow on the ground, was it snowing on the day of the attack on

22 Kravica, January 7th, 1993?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he answered that question yesterday or the

24 day before. He said that there was plenty of snow. Whether it was

25 snowing on the day or not is irrelevant. It's whether there was snow on

Page 2934

1 the ground.


3 Q. Was there snow on the ground?

4 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll rephrase. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Was there snow on the ground that day?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that completes my re-direct.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 Judge Brydensholt would like to put some questions.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Regarding that picture which was just

12 mentioned, and the snow on the ground, you mentioned that you have seen a

13 video where, more or less, the same group of persons occurred whereas the

14 pictures were taken from another direction. That is true, isn't it?

15 A. Yes, in the center of Kravica.

16 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Now, on the picture which you were shown

17 yesterday and --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to put it on the ELMO?

19 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: I don't think it is necessary. Because there

20 you could see the center, as you called it, of the Kravica on the same

21 picture - you remember, probably - and you saw that it was completely

22 burnt down. You saw the chimneys. Do you remember it or do you want to

23 see the picture again?

24 My point is, this picture could not have been taken on the 7th of

25 January, the day of the attack, because the building was already

Page 2935

1 completely ruined; it was not burning, it was not smoking any longer. So

2 it must have been taken on a later date; do you agree on that?

3 A. Yes. I agree it wasn't on the day that Kravica fell, but after

4 that.

5 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Good. That was one question I had.

6 Then another one. I think to remember that when you explained

7 what you have heard about how your father was captured by the Muslims, you

8 said that you had heard that the men or man who found him was in some

9 uniform. Do you remember your testimony here? What kind of uniform did

10 you see that those people had who captured your father? I'm aware you

11 were not there, but after what you have heard.

12 A. An American uniform, a camouflage uniform. Mijo Gavric was there;

13 five metres away from him.

14 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: You don't mention any UNPROFOR uniform or

15 something like that.

16 A. No, American uniforms. That's what we call camouflage uniforms.

17 That's what he said to me.

18 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: All right. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

20 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Popovic, I would like to come back to your

21 statement with regard to the question of whether or not there was a

22 cleansing or not. You use the term "cleansing." Was this a term that was

23 already used in 1992, or was it a description which was phrased later on?

24 A. When I said "cleansing," I meant that our people from Kravica, who

25 were travelling from Kravica to Bratunac, were killed on the Glogova road.

Page 2936

1 And then on the following day we would go and search the terrain, because

2 a lot of people were killed on the Bratunac-Kravica road, the Glogova

3 road. A lot of people were killed. The Muslims would come behind their

4 backs and ambush there. About 10 people were killed, including civilians.

5 And that's what I meant to say when I said "cleansing." It was actually

6 searching the terrain.

7 JUDGE ESER: Now, "cleansing" was not a normal term before the war

8 in the former Yugoslavia; it was a rather new term. Now, killing people,

9 on the one side, or that people leave a village would, up to that time,

10 not have been called cleansing. So was there special meaning connected

11 with this word "cleansing"?

12 A. I don't know how to answer this question.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I help a little bit? There is cleansing,

14 meaning mopping up the terrain, but this is not the cleansing that you

15 were referring to when yesterday you told us that, Yes, I remember that

16 Glogova was cleansed earlier on in the year, and we actually referred you

17 to May. When you said Glogova was cleansed earlier on in the year, you

18 were then asked again further questions to explain what that meant. And

19 basically you said that it was cleansed of the Muslim population. So the

20 cleansing that Judge Eser is referring you to is ethnic cleansing and not

21 mopping up of the terrain. And I am pretty sure that you know -- you're

22 fully capable of answering Judge Eser's question. If you don't, obviously

23 we're free to draw our own conclusions. But you're not dealing with

24 children here, let's put it like this.

25 JUDGE ESER: Would you like to answer this, my question, as it was

Page 2937

1 interpreted by Judge Agius? What means "cleansing"? I mean, it cannot be

2 identical with killing people or that people leave --

3 A. In our parts, cleansing means mopping up, searching the terrain.

4 Cleansing, you search the terrain.

5 JUDGE ESER: Okay. My second question refers to your statement of

6 2004, in July. It was already referred to by the Defence. In

7 paragraph 8, you said: "The village was defended on the front lines, and

8 there were between 250 and 300 soldiers, including the logistics staff."

9 Now, what did you mean with this 250 or 300? Have there been only

10 in Kravica, or were they distributed over a greater, a broader area? And

11 what means "logistics staff" in this context?

12 A. Logistics means cooks, bakers, warehouse staff issuing food.

13 That's what it means.

14 JUDGE ESER: And these bakers and these people, have they been

15 part of some sort of a unit together with armed people.

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE ESER: And these 250 to 300 people, have they been located

18 only in Kravica, or did they control or defend a broader territory beyond

19 Kravica? You showed us a long line going from Mandici, Siljkovici, and so

20 on. Now, when you referred to 250, 300 people, did you refer only to

21 Kravica, or did you want to say that all people taken together made up the

22 number of 250 to 300.

23 A. I meant to say people who were defending the line. I assessed

24 that there were between 250 and 300 people defending these villages.

25 JUDGE ESER: With "line," do you mean not only the circle around

Page 2938

1 Kravica but also the whole line going from Kravica to Siljkovici,

2 Jezestica, and so on?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE ESER: Thank you. My third question refers to the event

5 where you have been confronted with the body of your father. And the

6 Defence had referred to, and also the Prosecution the other day, that

7 there was a paper handed over to you by the pathologist. And then you

8 stated: "This paper was with me for years, but when I tried to find it

9 last night, I could not find same," "this paper," I guess, was meant.

10 Now, is it thinkable that you gave this paper to some other person?

11 A. I can't remember whether it was my mother or my sister who gave it

12 to me. I know that I received this paper personally from the doctor who

13 found it in his pocket, and I couldn't find it in the house.

14 JUDGE ESER: And you have no explanation why you did not find it

15 anymore?

16 A. I couldn't find it. When I return home, I'll look for it again.

17 I know I did get this piece of paper.

18 JUDGE ESER: And is it not thinkable that you gave it to somebody

19 else, some other person outside of your house?

20 A. I don't know that I gave it to anyone. This paper should be at my

21 home. I can't remember giving it to anyone.

22 JUDGE ESER: Okay, thank you. No further questions.


24 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I just -- two matters before this

25 witness leaves.

Page 2939

1 Firstly, in all the excitement, I think an exhibit number wasn't

2 given to the transcript for Blagojevic and Jokic of this witness'

3 testimony.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That will be given D126.

5 MR. JONES: The second matter is simply that I would ask Your

6 Honours to bear in mind that our client suffered a great deal during the

7 war, and as a result of the 1995 genocide, lost a lot of family members

8 and friends, and it's naturally a topic which is of great purport to him.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But he must exercise restrain.

10 MR. JONES: Of course, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I am sure that you will speak to him like all

12 lawyers do during the break.

13 MR. JONES: Of course, Your Honours. I simply ask the Court to

14 bear that in mind.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: He must understand that I will not allow any

16 nonsense.

17 MR. JONES: Of course, indeed, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: He's not the first one I've had to deal with, and I

19 am sure that he will not be the last one either. But I --

20 MR. JONES: He's the first to have experienced a genocide.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: To me it's almost a piece of cake, how to handle

22 him. I'm making it very clear.

23 MR. JONES: Of course, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And I will be as rough as you can imagine.

25 MR. JONES: Yes. I simply ask the Court to bear in mind the

Page 2940

1 special circumstances of Srebrenica in 1995.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. I bear in mind everything, actually. At

3 this point in time, we are here to do justice, and everything will be

4 borne in mind.

5 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.


7 Mr. Popovic, this brings your testimony to a close here. You will

8 be escorted now by Madam Usher, returned to your hotel, and then you will

9 be given all the assistance you require to enable you to return back home.

10 On behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and on my own behalf, I wish

11 to thank you for coming over to give testimony in this trial. I know that

12 you have been here for quite a few days. I am sorry that you had to stay

13 here for so long. On behalf of everyone, I also wish to wish you a safe

14 journey back home.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you

16 very much.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, our next witness doesn't have any protective

19 measures, does he?

20 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm asking because he was mentioned by name earlier.

22 So how much time do you require with this witness, Mr. Wubben?

23 MR. WUBBEN: To my estimation, two hours, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And another two hours, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

Page 2941

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think that Madam Usher needs assistance, or

2 what is happening? Yes, she is here. All right.

3 I can see that this is going to be very easy.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can I know what the witness said, please, from

7 the interpreters. Did you hear him?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said: Take it easy, daughter, one

9 thing at a time.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, take your advice as the best advice you can

11 receive for your lifetime, Madam Usher.

12 Witness, Mr. Miladinovic, can you hear me?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's me. Yes, I can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I am the Presiding Judge; my name is Judge

15 Agius. To my right I have Judge Brydensholt from Denmark, and to my left

16 I have Judge Eser from Germany. We are presiding over this case, and you

17 are one of the -- look at me, please. Look at me please. We are

18 presiding over this case against Naser Oric, and you are one of the

19 witnesses that the Prosecution has decided to bring over. So my first

20 duty is to welcome you to this Tribunal, and I also want to make sure,

21 since I am speaking in English, that you are receiving interpretation in

22 your own language. Could you please confirm that, first and foremost,

23 before we proceed.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all loud and clear. I thank

25 the Tribunal for inviting me so that we can clarify who did what in the

Page 2942

1 war, in the village of Jezestica, what they did a long, long time ago in

2 World War II and their grandchildren now did again. I'm prepared to take

3 an oath.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not -- please don't try to make our life more

5 difficult than it already is, Mr. Miladinovic. Before you start giving

6 evidence, our Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, something

7 which is equivalent to an oath, a solemn declaration that, in the course

8 of your testimony, you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

9 but the truth.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What else.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Now I'm going to help you make this solemn

12 declaration. You may remain seated. You may remain seated.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I am going to start reading out this solemn

15 declaration, and each time I stop, I want you to repeat the same words

16 yourself. I am going to start now.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I, Dragomir Miladinovic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Dragomir Miladinovic,

20 from the village of Jezestica.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I just said --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father's name is --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please repeat only the words that you hear from the

24 interpreters, nothing more than that. So I am going to start again.

25 I, Dragomir Miladinovic.

Page 2943

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, Dragomir Miladinovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Solemnly declare.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Solemnly declare.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That I will speak the truth.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the exact truth.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The whole truth.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And nothing but the truth.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And only the truth.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Miladinovic. That was your solemn

13 declaration with us. You basically have taken an oath here that you will

14 be testifying the truth.

15 Now, before you start with your testimony, I want to explain to

16 you what the procedure is. You are first going to be asked a set of

17 questions by Mr. Wubben, who I understand you have already met, and then

18 he will be followed by Madam Vidovic, who is the lead counsel for the

19 accused in this case. Madam Vidovic is to your left.

20 Your duty in terms of the solemn declaration that you have made is

21 to answer all questions truthfully and fully, as much as possible,

22 irrespective of who is putting the question to you. Your solemn

23 declaration does not mean that you can answer the questions of the

24 Prosecution fully and truthfully but you have no obligation to answer the

25 questions by the Defence truthfully and fully. You have also an

Page 2944

1 obligation to answer all the questions put to you by the Defence

2 truthfully and fully. Did you understand me?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If, at any time, you need a break, you

5 feel tired, please draw my attention and we will have a break.

6 I think, Mr. Wubben, you can start.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. Wubben:

9 Q. Witness, I will start with questioning you regarding your personal

10 background, and you can limit your answers by telling us yes or no.

11 Your name is Dragomir Miladinovic.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were born on the 30th of August, 1934.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So whenever there are previous statements indicating that your

16 date of birth was the 20th of August, 1934, that specific date is

17 incorrect?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. You were born in Jezestica, where you lived for the rest of your

20 life.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Your ethnic origin is Serbian.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You have ever been a farmer, also in 1992 and 1993.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2945

1 Q. Did you have, as a farmer --

2 A. I've always been a farmer.

3 Q. Did you have, as a farmer, any cattle, livestock, also in

4 1992/1993?

5 A. 1992, let me see, I had oxen, a cow, pigs, livestock.

6 Q. In 1992, when the war broke out, you lived in Jezestica together

7 with your wife and two of your sons.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were those sons named Djordjo and Ratko?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness, are you illiterate? Can you write or read?

12 A. No, I can't. Block letters perhaps a little, but not really. I

13 can't read or write. I can read some block letters, and I have been to

14 school.

15 Q. Witness, I notice that you're wearing glasses now. Is it correct

16 that you can see clear enough to watch pictures --

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. -- photographs? Did you wear --

19 A. Please, as for photographs, it is just not true. What was

20 photographed, it's a huge village with 20 homes, and there are not even

21 five or six photographs there. Therefore, it can't be correct --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, we can't go on like this. The

23 Prosecution didn't bring you here to sit down and say whatever comes to

24 your mind and whatever you would like to say. The Prosecution brought you

25 here so that they put specific questions to you, and please answer those

Page 2946

1 questions, nothing else. And then it will be the turn of the Defence to

2 put questions to you. But we don't want any statements from you except in

3 the reply to the specific questions that are put to you. Do you

4 understand me?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But may I be allowed to ask

6 one question, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What is your question?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three houses are there on a hill,

9 but I can't see them on the photographs. They are no where to be seen --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I have to stop you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. No, we don't have to go

12 into that, then. I will no longer talk about that.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, we will discuss that only if you

14 are asked questions on them. If you are not asked questions on them, we

15 will not discuss them. Then at the end of your testimony, I might decide

16 that it's the case of asking you whether you want to add anything or not.

17 But it's far down the road as yet.

18 So let's start -- let's continue with your questions. You were

19 asking him about his glasses, spectacles, and whether he can actually look

20 at photos and see what they contain, and I gathered from his answer that

21 he can.

22 MR. WUBBEN: My next question, Your Honour, I will put to the

23 witness:

24 Q. Did you also need glasses to see clearly in 1992 or beginning

25 1993?

Page 2947

1 A. Three years ago I had surgery on both eyes. I worked in the

2 Red Cross. I didn't need this. I came home, and all of a sudden it

3 happened and I had to have operations on both eyes. I worked in the

4 Red Cross --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, Mr. Miladinovic, because otherwise you are

6 going to be here, I anticipate, at least another week, the way you are

7 answering. The question was: In 1992 and the beginning of 1993, did you

8 also need to wear glasses like you do now? And you just answer it yes or

9 no. That's what we require of you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have glasses then.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

12 So that answers your question, Mr. Wubben. Next question.


14 Q. Next question is related to the village of Jezestica. Can you

15 tell us whether or not it's situated in a valley.

16 A. This village is partly in a valley and partly on two slopes, on

17 hillsides.

18 Q. Now, how is the terrain around your village of Jezestica,

19 including the hamlets? Is it hilly with woods? Or how far can you look?

20 A. You can see on both sides, and you can even see the River Drina.

21 You can see as far as Serbia; that's how far you can see. And we would

22 call out to each other from one hamlet to another. You can call out and

23 see. And there are other villages on all sides and there are woods and

24 there's everything.

25 Q. Is it correct that you lived in the hamlet of Tanici in 1992?

Page 2948

1 A. It's correct. That's correct, yes. I didn't go anywhere from

2 there.

3 Q. Can you -- can you mention any other hamlets in this village?

4 A. That's my village. It had 540 inhabitants, 120 households. We

5 didn't divide it up. I know everyone by name.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If you want to suggest to the witness any

7 names of hamlets that you had in mind, you're free to do so.


9 Q. Is it correct that the hamlets included in the village, apart from

10 Tanici, are Djermani, Jecmista, Kijevici, Rankovici, Vresine, Radukici and

11 Potkonijice?

12 A. Potkonijice.

13 Q. Is it correct that these are the hamlets of your village?

14 A. Yes, the village of Jezestica had 10 hamlets. In the middle we

15 had a reading room. We would all visit each other's houses. It was a big

16 village, a strong village.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question.


19 Q. Are those hamlets close to the center of Jezestica or far away?

20 Can you give a kind of distance?

21 A. You're taking me back. The village of Jezestica, Kajici, Tanici,

22 Rankovici, Radukici, Potkonijice, Vresine, and so on, all of this was a

23 single village. Not a local commune but a village. Kajici was also the

24 village. It was the village, but it's divided into hamlets. But that's

25 not the proper address. The proper address was the village of Jezestica.

Page 2949

1 You could get a letter from anywhere in the world at that address.

2 Q. Yes. But again, the question is, these hamlets, are they grouped

3 like a pattern, a square, a circle, or what? Can you describe that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have an aerial view, a picture, a photo, that

5 you could show us of the area?

6 MR. WUBBEN: Not at the moment, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So why don't we leave it until we go on site and

8 move to the next question, or to the break straight away.

9 I think we'll have a break now of 25 minutes.

10 We are going to have a short break, Mr. Miladinovic, give you a

11 rest a little bit, and then we'll start again in half an hour's time. And

12 then you will only answer questions for 45 minutes --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need to take a break until

14 daybreak, as far as I'm concerned. I'm here. I don't need a break until

15 daybreak tomorrow morning. Only if you're bored. But if you want to, you

16 can take a break, but not for my sake.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are definitely not bored. We are never bored

18 here, Mr. Miladinovic. But there are many others who've been working here

19 and who need a break.

20 So we'll have a 25-minute break, and then we will resume soon

21 after. Thank you.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, let's continue. And you'll regulate a

25 little bit the proceedings, see when it's convenient for you to stop.

Page 2950

1 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, I will do, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Miladinovic, in the village of Jezestica, you stated that

3 there were around 500 inhabitants. These inhabitants of the village, were

4 they of Serbian origin, ethnic origin, I mean?

5 A. They were all Serbs. There was one Croat; the man was killed, and

6 he has a child.

7 Q. Now, how many houses were in the village, including the hamlets?

8 Can you state that?

9 A. 120 households. All of that was Jezestica.

10 Q. And these households were mainly wood or stone or whatever

11 construction?

12 A. The houses were built both of wood and of hard material.

13 Q. What do the people do in the area of Jezestica for a living, I

14 mean mainly?

15 A. They lived by farming, keeping livestock. They also had plum

16 orchards and other orchards. That was the only place I ever worked, and I

17 built six houses.

18 Q. Is it true that in 1992 in Jezestica, when the war broke out, that

19 there were any attacks in that time?

20 A. May I say?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. In fact, I think, Mr. Wubben, you

22 need to help a little bit the witness, because if you tell him, Is it true

23 in 1992 Jezestica, when the war broke out, that there were any attacks in

24 that time, you can be specific.

25 Could you tell us, Mr. Miladinovic, in 1992, what happened in

Page 2951

1 Jezestica?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Then go ahead and tell us. Go ahead and tell us.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I say something?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. We need you to tell us what happened in

6 Jezestica in 1992.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I tell you how it started?

8 On the 5th of May, 1992, the hamlet of Bukova Glava, that's the

9 village of Bijeceva, I went to have a beer because somebody was

10 celebrating his patron's name on the following day, Djurdjevdan. I went

11 to the village for that reason. In the evening, those 25 households were

12 expelled, and they came to our village. That's how the war began.

13 On the 20th of May, if you will let me talk about it, on the 20th

14 of May, two people were killed, Mile Ostojic and Stojan Popovic. On the

15 20th of June, some houses were set on fire near Jezestica; two belonged to

16 my son, and two to Radenko and Rada Miladinovic. After the 20th of July,

17 there was an attack on Magisici, and this man who was married to a Croat

18 woman was killed and so was Ljubica Milanovic. That was the 20th of

19 June -- July, I apologise. Not June, July.

20 On the 8th of August -- should I go on?



23 Q. Yes, witness, please go on.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry, Your Honour, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go on.

Page 2952

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. On the 8th of August,

2 there was an attack on Jezestica by a commander at 11.30. I was there,

3 and I'll tell you all about it. I don't have paper, but I do have a

4 brain.

5 At 11.30, there was an attack from Rankovici, and because this

6 village is five kilometres by six kilometres, it's big, there was an

7 attack on that village. They were burning houses, and a certain Zorga

8 Bogicevic, if I had not arrived, would have been burned alive. I saved

9 her because I was -- I was working on my land. I had wheat and I had oxen

10 and I had livestock and I was looking after them. I was in the village

11 guard.

12 However, they started burning from Rankovici, Djermani, Jecmista.

13 They were setting fire to all of that, but it came to where I was. I was

14 at Mile Djukanovic's house, which was on fire. It was 20 metres away from

15 where I was. Six or seven people were bringing jugs of water, but this

16 was burning. And I said to them -- I fled. And when I came back, nothing

17 was missing from my house, but everything else had been looted and the

18 livestock driven off.

19 We went off and came back in two or three hours. I discovered

20 that Milan Rankovic had been killed, and I found the houses had been

21 burnt. I found Sreten Rankovic. And again I went back to the field.

22 What would I do up there? Down there I had three houses, and three were

23 on the hill. My house had not been touched, nor my livestock, on that

24 occasion.

25 After that I went down into the valley, and Kijevici, Jecmista,

Page 2953

1 and so on, there were two brothers, one's head had been split open. They

2 were dragging them off to Bratunac. Their mother's throat had been cut.

3 And then about nine people were killed; I can tell you their names if you

4 want me to.

5 Then afterwards we went back up there and we were keeping guard

6 again. What do I know? I omitted to say that on Ilindan, in Glogova, a

7 woman was burned alive in a car. Her name was Milenka Rankovic. It was

8 always one person here, two people there.

9 And then all of a sudden Borici, that commander, formed three

10 fronts. People were being strangled. They would attack at 5.30 on

11 Christmas. And one person was throwing things out of the house, and

12 others were carrying them away in buckets --

13 Q. Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt, but may I stop you because I have

14 some questions related to this attack on Jezestica on the -- in August

15 1992. And I would like to ask you some more details, and please allow me

16 now to put these questions to you.

17 You told the Judges that you were in the village guard. When was

18 this --

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. -- village guard formed? Was that prior to the attack? And why

21 was it formed?

22 A. I'll tell you that. My wife went to Cizmici, and Jevic said to

23 me - Naser Oric knows him - he was married to someone from Potocari, and

24 this woman's husband said to my wife, The time will come again when you

25 will have to wear pantaloons to save your life.

Page 2954

1 Q. And that was the cause of forming the village guards in your

2 village of Jezestica?

3 A. Yes. No, that -- that was later, the guard was set up later. No,

4 not then, it wasn't established then. But something was wrong. They knew

5 this was going to happen, and we Serbs didn't know.

6 Q. And was this village guard formed on a voluntary basis?

7 A. I guarded my house and worked on my wheat. I was harvesting my

8 wheat. I would be working in the morning and then harvesting in the

9 afternoon. I didn't go far from my house. I had livestock.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Miladinovic, you are a very important witness,

11 and I suppose that you know that you have come here to try and help us --

12 and help us find our way in this search for the truth. I would like to

13 invite you to try and answer the question that is put to you and not

14 something else.

15 The question that was put to you was a very simple one. You were

16 referred to the village guard and asked whether the village guard was

17 formed on a voluntary basis. And your answer was: "I guarded my house

18 and worked on my wheat. I was harvesting my wheat. I would be working in

19 the morning and then harvesting in the afternoon. I didn't go far from my

20 house. I had livestock." But you didn't tell us whether the village

21 guard was formed on a voluntary basis. So you said a lot of things which

22 are not relevant to the question, and you never answered the question.

23 This is why I'm trying to be as -- I need you to please try to

24 answer the question and not tell us something else. Did you understand

25 me? Because then the question has to be repeated, and that would mean

Page 2955

1 that we are wasting or using twice as much time as we would need to.

2 So I put the question to you, and just answer yes or no: Was the

3 village guard formed on a voluntary basis, or was every able-bodied man

4 bound to form part of the village guard?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You don't know what?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I was there to make

8 sure nobody slaughtered our women. There were four of us there. One --

9 some of us were there in the morning and others in the afternoon. And

10 when I was off, I went back to harvest my wheat. I never went far from my

11 home.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me put the question in a different manner. If

13 you, for argument's sake, had decided you didn't want to form part of this

14 village guard, were you free not to form part of the village guard?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I had to, because otherwise

16 somebody could have burst in and slaughtered our women. I had to tell

17 them when to flee.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's another kind of necessity, then,

19 that we're talking about.

20 Yes, Mr. Wubben, please proceed.

21 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

22 Q. Did the army instruct you to form a village guard?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did someone pay you for being a village guard?

25 A. They brought to the four of us, the women brought us money, to the

Page 2956

1 four of us. I'm not trying to avoid saying that. I'm under oath. And up

2 to 1993, after that I went to work in the Red Cross. I have documents, if

3 you need them.

4 Q. Did you --

5 A. I would --

6 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, thank you. My question is, did you, as village

7 guard, wear uniforms?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you wear arms?

10 A. One of us had a hunting rifle, and when we changed shifts, when

11 the two of us arrived to take up our shift, we would get the weapon from

12 the other shift. So we -- the weapon was passed from shift to shift.

13 Q. Was there any equipment or military equipment given to you by the

14 army or another force?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were there military men --

17 A. As far as I was concerned, and the four of us, no, they didn't.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: "Equipment" is a little bit of a very vast term that

19 you're using, Mr. Wubben. Could you please be precise or even specific.


21 Q. Any army equipment given to you or the other village guards by the

22 army?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I mean, my objection is to the use

24 of "military" or "army equipment," which is so vast.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.

Page 2957

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I imagine that this could encompass hundreds of

2 items, possibly. So if you're referring to binoculars, ask him whether he

3 was given binoculars. If you're referring to radios or other means of

4 communication, put the question to him.


6 Q. Were you given any support by an army in setting up these village

7 guards?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. You stated about the shift, the change via shift. Was this a kind

10 of organisation like this, to post as a village guard in Jezestica during

11 that time?

12 A. I don't think you understood me. I told you where I was, the four

13 of us were there, right there, to prevent someone from coming from Poto --

14 we were on guard there in order to wake the women, and that woman I talked

15 about who nearly burned alive. And now you're trying to sidetrack me.

16 Q. Witness, I'm just trying to get more informations on behalf of the

17 trial and the Judges to find out what's happening, and that's why I put

18 forward these questions to you.

19 Now, my next question is: There was a system of village guards.

20 Was that done by a shift that you divided the taskings between each

21 others, or was it organised on another way, in another manner?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose by --

23 A. Well, shifts, no. The two of us were there until midnight, or

24 from midnight on. And there is a clock that we used, and someone would

25 come at night, no one really acted as some sort of a shift leader. No one

Page 2958

1 gave us orders, to the four of us who were there. Mico Ostojic, he was

2 killed. Milenko Milanovic and Nikola Miladinovic; they are still alive.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Move on. Because at the end of the day whether

4 there was shifts or no shifts, and whether this was part of the

5 organisation, how much is it going to advance the case, Mr. Wubben?

6 MR. WUBBEN: The next question, Your Honour, will then be:

7 Q. You stated to the Judges that they were setting fire to the

8 houses, "they," during the attack. What do you mean by "they"? What did

9 you saw?

10 A. I think I said that. I saw -- I saw them burning. I recognised

11 them burning things at 20 or 30 metres from where I was. 20 perhaps, not

12 even 30. Seven or eight persons setting fire to things, carrying jugs and

13 burning houses down. That's what I said.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But who were they, these seven or eight persons?

15 Who were they? Did you recognise any one of them?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who were they? I didn't exactly go

17 there to shake hands. How could I have recognised them? How was I

18 supposed to recognise them? It was impossible to recognise them. You

19 don't do that sort of thing in Bosnia, go over there and shake hands.

20 What you have to do is run as fast as you can.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What were they wearing? What were they wearing?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An olive-drab suit and --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the last part of the

24 answer.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What were they wearing? You started

Page 2959

1 saying "an olive-drab suit." Were they all wearing an olive-drab suit?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some had those and some had plain

3 clothes, like we did.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Did you hear them say anything? Were

5 they talking amongst themselves?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Barbarat [phoen].

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What does "barbarat" mean?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same people. It was a sign.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But does the word "barbarat" have a meaning?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a sign.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: A sign of what?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sign that they were the same

13 people. How come you don't understand this? Brothers, that they were

14 going around beating people. I don't know how I can make myself clear on

15 this. It's a war sign, a code. For those who were in the military,

16 perhaps they should know. I myself served in Macedonia under Tito, and

17 there never was a better ruler than Tito.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know the ethnicity of these seven or eight

19 persons that you saw?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Turks or Muslims or non-aligned or

21 Bosniaks. I'm not sure what I should call them. Turks is what we've

22 called them since World War II. They have different names now.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.


25 Q. Mr. Miladinovic, you stated that they were setting fire to the

Page 2960

1 houses. How did they do so? Did you saw or notice that?

2 A. Again, we're going back to that. What do you mean I didn't see?

3 I'm not talking off the top of my head. I may not have a piece of paper

4 in front of me to show that, but I have it all in my brain. Here it is,

5 the same thing happening again. That's why I told you about different

6 hamlets, in order not to forget any of them. You see what I'm trying to

7 do here. What do you mean I didn't see that? I have the first and last

8 names. Just off the top of my head, I may not have been to school, but

9 I'll make sure to remember everything. I have all the first and last

10 names, everything.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think you must have received the wrong

12 interpretation. No one is suggesting that you didn't see what you told us

13 that you saw. Mr. Wubben was just asking you to please give a little bit

14 more details. When you said that they were setting fire to the houses,

15 what did you actually see? This was his question. And you were attacking

16 Mr. Wubben as if he was offending you. Just tell us what you saw with

17 your eyes on that day.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With my own eyes, I saw them

19 commanding from Brezov Brijeg, left and right. They were commanding on a

20 white horse from Brezov Brijeg. And then things were burned, one house

21 after another, all at once. And when it came to where I was, I started

22 running. Do you want me to go one house at a time?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I want you to go back to what you have just

24 stated a little bit, and please be patient with me, Mr. Miladinovic,

25 because I wasn't there on that day, so I need to know as much detail as

Page 2961

1 you can give us, provided that you keep to the questions that we are

2 putting to you.

3 It may, again, be a question of interpretation, but I need you to

4 explain a little bit better. What I have here on my screen says, when you

5 started giving me your answer, you said: "With my own eyes, I saw them

6 commanding from Brezov Brijeg, left and right." What do you mean by "I

7 saw them commanding"? "Them commanding"? What do you mean by "them

8 commanding"? Who is "them"?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslims or Turks. Like I said,

10 there was no one else there, no one to be found.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And then you said: "They were commanding on a white

12 horse from Brezov Brijeg. Who was?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, the commander, probably.

14 But it wasn't me, that's for sure.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Did you see the commander on this white horse?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean I didn't? He tied

17 his horse to something on Brezov Brijeg, and he was firing shots and

18 shouting "left and right." Whether it was Golic from Glogova, or another

19 man, I don't know.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So you wouldn't be able to recognise the person who

21 was on the white horse.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How should I recognise that person?

23 20 -- it's hard for me to recognise anyone at 20 metres' distance, and

24 this was at 500 metres, maybe even one kilometre, as the crow flies.

25 Impossible.

Page 2962

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you come to the conclusion that he was the

2 commander or that this person, because I don't even know if it's a man or

3 a woman, that this person was the commander because he or she was on a

4 white horse? Is that the only reason why you think he was the commander?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an attack. He gave orders,

6 he had to make plans, he had to do some calculations and see exactly what

7 he would do.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But did you hear what he was saying? Did you hear

9 the orders that he was giving?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't. He was exercising command

11 both left and right.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I won't intervene much more than that.

13 Mr. Wubben, he is back to you.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

15 Q. My next question is: You did saw the attackers burning down the

16 houses. How did they actually manage to burn the houses? What did you

17 see?

18 A. What did I see? Well, we saw them taking things out of the houses

19 and looting things. And later, when I returned, they were taking flour

20 away and beans. Whatever they could find in the houses, they were taking

21 things away and taking it up towards Vrestine.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm going to interrupt you, because you're not

23 answering the question that Mr. Wubben put to you. You're making

24 Mr. Wubben's life very difficult.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure how I should.

Page 2963

1 JUDGE AGIUS: His question was -- he wants you to tell to us, to

2 explain, to describe to us how they burned the houses? What did they do

3 to burn the houses?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They carried something, something

5 like jugs, round ones. And it only takes a minute to set fire to a house,

6 like I said before. And then they pour it and it catches fire

7 immediately, as if made of wood.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.


10 Q. And, Mr. Miladinovic, prior to that setting house -- the houses on

11 fire, was there any looting, as you stated? And what did you actually saw

12 regarding looting?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He just said it already. I wouldn't waste much more

14 time on this.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can ask him what he saw being taken out,

17 apart from what he has already mentioned, because he even said that he saw

18 them taking out wheat. So I think you've got enough there. Perhaps you

19 could --


21 Q. And did the --

22 A. They were eating things.

23 Q. Witness, I have a question --

24 A. They were taking livestock away, too.

25 Q. Please, Witness, I have a question for you. Did the attackers set

Page 2964

1 all the houses on fire? And did they loot regarding all those houses, or

2 was it only a part, what you actually saw?

3 A. What I saw is that nothing was left there, not even a chicken or

4 livestock. They were taking everything away, driving everything away.

5 But like I said before, on the 20th of June, once they had taken the

6 livestock away, they killed the pigs and they carried it off, because they

7 needed stuff to eat. Likewise, on the 28th of August, all the livestock

8 wasn't allowed to burn. It would have been a shame. They took everything

9 away.

10 Q. Witness, when you mean the 28th of August, do you mean actually

11 that particular date? Because you were stating about the attack on the

12 8th of August --

13 A. The 8th, not the 28th. The 8th, not the 28th.

14 Q. Now, my next question is: You stated that in the village of

15 Jezestica, there were 120 households, houses to be specific. Did you

16 notice after the attack how many of those houses had been burned?

17 A. 60 up in Brdo. Down in Polje, no. But in Brdo, 60 households,

18 all destroyed. Not a single chicken was left. That's what was done on

19 the 8th of August. Nothing was left intact.

20 Q. And can you tell the Judges, was there ever been a compensation

21 for this damage by these attackers?

22 A. No one ever paid any compensation. Not for my two sons. I had

23 six houses, but what do I care about those.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, we will need to stop at 20 to and not a

25 quarter to, so you have another five minutes.

Page 2965

1 MR. WUBBEN: Well, Your Honour, I have finalised now part of the

2 attack on August, and my subsequent question is to move to the subsequent

3 attack, if so, and that is a specific area, of course.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can put it off until Monday, then --

5 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I suppose.

7 Mr. Miladinovic, we are going to stop here for today, and we will

8 continue on Monday, and I'm sure we'll be able to finish on Monday and

9 then you can return back home. So that's the end of today.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness -- the important thing that I need to

12 have a --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I could go on like this until

14 daybreak, just to get it over with, until daybreak, I wouldn't even need

15 to stand up except to go to the lavatory, but that's all. I thank this

16 Tribunal. People's throats were cut during the war.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that you understand what I'm

18 going to tell you now. You are going to have between now and Monday all

19 for yourself. You can relax. I'm sure that the staff will assist you

20 also to make your stay here in The Hague as pleasant as possible. I want

21 to make sure, however, that you do not discuss --

22 THE WITNESS: [No Interpretation].

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Mr. Miladinovic, let me finish. I want to make

24 sure that you do not discuss matters that you are giving evidence upon

25 with anyone, neither here in The Hague nor over the telephone. It's

Page 2966

1 against the law for someone who still has to continue the evidence, the

2 testimony, to discuss these matters with anyone until he has finished

3 testifying, and you haven't finished testifying. Do you understand me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. I'm not in touch

5 with anyone, nor am I concerned with the other villages, only my own,

6 those villages in the areas of Bratunac and Srebrenica municipalities.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. You may escort the witness out.

8 We'll see you again on Monday, Mr. Miladinovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I thank you

10 so much. I thank you so much. The truth will out. I am an old man. I

11 have spasms in my legs.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] God bless you all.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's all for today.

16 Did you have an opportunity to speak to your client during the

17 break?

18 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. I just want to make sure that

20 there will be no repetition of what happened. That's all.

21 MR. JONES: Indeed, Your Honour, and you have my explanation for

22 the earlier outbreak.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

24 We stand adjourned until Monday. I think we're sitting in the

25 morning, aren't we? Thank you.

Page 2967

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of

3 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.