Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3070

1 Tuesday, 14 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar. Could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in

11 a language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

13 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm Patricia Sellers

17 representing the Office of the Prosecution. With me today is co-counsel

18 Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio. Our case manager is Donnica Henry-Frijlink, and

19 also we have Ms. Djurdja Mirkovic, who is also our assistant case manager

20 today.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Sellers. And good morning to you and

22 your team. Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am

24 Vasvija Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones, we are defending Mr. Naser

25 Oric. And we have our legal assistant, or case manager, Ms. Jasmina Cosic

Page 3071

1 and our case manager, Geoff Roberts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic. Good morning to you and

3 your team. Any preliminaries before we bring in Mr. Eric?

4 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES: There are no preliminaries before this witness, but

7 there is a matter that we should raise before the following witness, so --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you raise it afterwards or --

9 MR. JONES: Yes. It's fine with us, and we wouldn't want to hold

10 up this next witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Eric, and welcome back to the

14 Tribunal.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You know the procedure, so -- already.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher is going to give you the text of the

19 solemn declaration. Please read it out aloud and that's your solemn

20 undertaking with us.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Yes. We start with

Page 3072

1 Ms. Sellers. The reason why you have been recalled, Mr. Eric, is that we

2 have come by video recording which provides some information which you

3 would have certainly been questioned upon had we seen this video before.

4 Having seen it now, we need to have you questioned on some aspects that

5 emerge from this video. The Prosecution is going first, and then the

6 Defence will follow.

7 Ms. Sellers.

8 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examined by Ms. Sellers:

10 Q. Good morning. Would you please state your full name for the

11 record.

12 A. My name is Slavisa Eric.

13 Q. And isn't it correct that you testified before this Tribunal

14 before Their Honours in the Prosecution versus Naser Oric on the 26th of

15 October?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, you testified surrounding the events of the Muslim

18 attack against the village of Kravica on the 7th of January, 1993 and then

19 its recapture by Bosnian Serb forces on the 15th of March, 1993. Were you

20 ever asked about those events by a film crew?

21 A. Yes, I was, I think, in 1994, for television Zvornik. I gave a

22 brief statement about the suffering of the village. They were collecting

23 or gathering material about the destruction of those villages and how

24 repairs are were being under way and so on. So I was called. At that

25 time, I was the head of the medical services in the Bratunac Brigade. So

Page 3073

1 then I went and gave them a statement. This was in Kravica, in a house

2 which was a kind of local coffee bar. And I gave a statement to the local

3 television. But there were several of us, and we all gave statements.

4 Q. Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber who else was with

5 you or interviewed when you were being interviewed by this film crew from

6 Zvornik Television.

7 A. Jovan Nikolic was there, Ratko Nikolic, Goran Djuric, a friend of

8 mine, Mira Djukanovic, myself. I don't know if anyone else was there. I

9 cannot remember. It's possible that some other people were there also. I

10 can't remember.

11 Q. Now, did you have a chance to see a broadcast of this film by

12 Zvornik Television when it was first put on the air, first broadcast?

13 A. No. No.

14 Q. Were you recently shown a copy of that broadcast by the office --

15 in the Office of the Prosecutor?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. SELLERS: I would like to have the exhibit that's previously

18 been marked P44 placed on our screens. Your Honour, this is -- I'm sorry,

19 448. This will be the video. And I just want to make one statement for

20 the record. I previously discussed this with Defence counsel. The

21 videotape is quite long. We are interested in what we refer to as segment

22 2, which concerns the TV show. Segment 1 concerns other events that are

23 no relationship to the witness who is before us.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. We are not going to interfere in

25 that.

Page 3074

1 MS. SELLERS: Fine. One last announcement before showing this

2 tape is that I want to inform both the Trial Chamber and Defence counsel

3 that there are subtitles. There are English subtitles that the Office of

4 the Prosecution has placed on the tape. They are draft. We are sending

5 it out for final translation. There will be final subtitles. And I will

6 note that the Office of the Prosecutor has found a couple of errors in the

7 translation. So I just want to state that openly on the record so that

8 the Trial Chamber and Defence are both aware.

9 Okay. Now turning to the video.

10 Q. Mr. Eric, would you look at the screen before you, in front of

11 you. Was this the beginning of the television programme?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell Their Honours what it says.

14 A. Yes. This is Serbian Television Zvornik. Before these were the

15 letters on the registration plates in Zvornik, ZV. And then it says "the

16 hidden truth crimes against Serbs from 1992 to 1995." That's what it

17 says.

18 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next image. Mr. Eric, can you look

19 at this carefully and please tell the Trial Chamber: Is this part of the

20 Zvornik TV programme, and what is written there?

21 A. Yes, it is. It says: "Serbian Television Zvornik. We apologise

22 to the viewers because of the bad quality of the tape, because these are

23 tapes on VHS cassettes. We invite all the viewers who were detained in

24 Muslim prisons, and those who have some kind of video cassettes,

25 photographs, or other material which we could use for this hidden truth,

Page 3075












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 3076

1 crimes against Serbs from 1992 to 1995. And could they please contact us

2 on telephone number 583-710, or come to Television Zvornik. Thank you for

3 your understanding."

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I think we might ask that the lights

6 could be dimmed just a bit.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I meant when I said -- I didn't mean to

8 shut you or anyone else down. Yes. I think that would help. That would

9 help. Thank you. Yes. Move ahead, please.

10 MS. SELLERS: Okay. Could we now go to the next clip, portion

11 of this television show. And could we have the sound, please.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'd like to have the

14 sound to this, because I'd like the witness --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I would imagine they heard you, because they

16 rewound a little bit.

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. Mr. Eric, does that video show an accurate representation of what

20 you said when you were interviewed by Zvornik Television?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did anyone tell you what to say that day?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you reading from a prepared text?

25 A. It's possible that I had jotted down a couple of the names of the

Page 3077

1 people in order to remember. The people that we were bringing out that

2 day. It's possible that I wrote down two, three, four of those names.

3 There were a lot of wounded, so I didn't want to get confused.

4 Q. Now, in the video, you stated that you were waiting for

5 helicopters during the attack. Now, from your knowledge --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- were you waiting for helicopters to come to Kravica in order to

8 attack the Muslim soldiers?

9 A. No. They told us that helicopters could come. They had

10 apparently promised them from Bratunac, that helicopters would come to

11 evacuate these wounded people.

12 Q. Did those helicopters ever come and evacuate the wounded people?

13 A. No, never.

14 MS. SELLERS: I would ask that we just go back to the clip showing

15 Mr. Eric again and just -- so we can see what he's wearing, please.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, would you please take a look again at the image,

19 and would you explain to the Trial Chamber: What were you wearing that

20 day in the video clip?

21 A. Well, you can see I was wearing a white T-shirt, I was wearing a

22 camouflage shirt, and I was wearing one-piece suit, camouflage, and

23 also -- overalls, and I was also wearing a sleeveless jacket, waistcoat.

24 So I had four layers.

25 Q. Is this a complete uniform?

Page 3078

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when was that uniform issued to you?

3 A. In late 1993 or early 1994. This is all recorded in the Bratunac

4 Brigade command when these overalls arrived. I think there is a list and

5 there must be a date when this was issued to me. I still have those

6 overalls, and when it's very cold - I have it at home - when it's very

7 cold, I put it on, if I'm working on something and it's winter. So I

8 still have it.

9 Q. Is this what you were wearing the day of the Muslim attack on

10 Kravica, 7th of January, 1993?

11 A. No. I told you earlier: I was issued it in 1993 or 1994. On the

12 day of the attack, however, I was wearing a sweater, civilian sweater, on

13 an olive-drab shirt, trousers which were of the same olive-drab colour,

14 civilian boots, and I also had an olive-drab jacket from the former

15 Yugoslav army. And I put that on before I went out. But up until that

16 moment, I was just wearing trousers and a shirt.

17 Q. Mr. Eric, how do you remember what you were wearing the day of the

18 Kravica attack?

19 A. For the next 15 to 20 days, I actually had no other clothes than

20 the ones I was wearing when I went out. That's what I wore. Since all my

21 documents stayed behind in the house - my driver's licence, my car

22 registration, papers, my personal ID - I had to get duplicates. So I have

23 that photograph. I know exactly the clothes that I had when I left. And

24 I wore those clothes for a long time, until I was given something else to

25 wear. I had nothing else to wear. Everything had been burned.

Page 3079

1 Q. So are you testifying that you renewed your driver's licence and

2 personal documents after the attack and you were wearing the same clothes

3 when you renewed those documents that you'd been wearing the day of the

4 attack against Kravica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you take a photo when you were renewing some of your personal

7 documents, such as your driver's licence?

8 A. Yes. Yes. This was seven to eight days later.

9 Q. I'm going to ask at this time two things. We're going to put an

10 exhibit on Sanction's screen. I will be asking for a P number, but also

11 at the request of Defence counsel, I was going to ask Mr. Eric to produce

12 his driver's licence, available for Madam Vidovic to look at. But can we

13 first pass out these documents.

14 Now, Mr. Eric, do you recognise the document that's on the screen

15 in front of you?

16 A. Yes. That is my driver's licence.

17 Q. And did you give an original copy of your driver's licence to the

18 Office of the Prosecutor on Sunday?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And was a copy made of your driver's licence?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you consider this an accurate copy of the driver's licence

23 that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor?

24 A. That is correct.

25 MS. SELLERS: I would now ask if we could take a closer look at

Page 3080

1 the photo on the driver's licence. Excuse me. I must ask also that we

2 don't enter his driver's licence into evidence or -- he will not be able

3 to drive when he gets back, I understand.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the Trial Chamber was shown the

5 original driving licence of the witness, which the exhibit -- what number

6 are we going to give this, Mr. Registrar? 462? 461?

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: 462. Of which Exhibit P462 is a photocopy.

9 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours. I will be tendering that

10 into evidence at the conclusion of these questions.

11 Q. Mr. Eric, would you please look at --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Jones or Madam Vidovic, are you

13 satisfied that this is a true photocopy of the original driving licence?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


17 Q. Mr. Eric, would you look at the picture that's on this screen.

18 Now, are these the clothes that you were wearing on the day of the attack

19 against Kravica?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to tender the copy of the

22 driver's licence at this time.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. As stated, this will be P462.


25 Q. Mr. Eric, could you please also tell us: What date did you

Page 3081












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 3082

1 acquire this driver's licence?

2 A. 15 or 16 days after Kravica burned down. I think it says here,

3 the 21st of January, 1993. So 14 days.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, you also mentioned that you were wearing a coat

5 on the day of the attack.

6 MS. SELLERS: I would ask that the next exhibit be placed on

7 Sanction.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the sort of jacket that I

9 had.


11 Q. Mr. Eric, is this the type of coat that used to be issued by the

12 JNA army?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, because people are wearing that type coat --

15 A. I didn't get that one from the JNA. We just got it. The JNA

16 brought it over and it was given to people. This is the sort of uniform

17 that they used in the army earlier on. Since it was cold, I got this

18 jacket to protect myself from the cold.

19 Q. Was this jacket issued by the JNA prior to the Kravica attack

20 because you were part of the armed forces?

21 A. Yes. Before. Before. I'm not sure when, nor did one really sign

22 for these. You know, they just brought them there and then you took

23 whichever size was right for you. There were about 50 other perhaps 100

24 of these, as well as other items of clothing that people could just take

25 and use, such as trousers, boots.

Page 3083

1 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like Mr. Eric to look at the next clip on

2 the video, and the Trial Chamber also, please.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Mr. Eric, do you know this person?

6 A. Yes. He's my uncle, Ratko Nikolic.

7 Q. Was this person also filmed by Zvornik Television at the same time

8 that you were filmed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And were you present when this part of the video was made?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you stated that he was your uncle. Would you please explain

13 to the Trial Chamber exactly how he's related to you.

14 A. My mother's sister is his wife. My mother's sister is his wife.

15 Q. Now, do you know whether Ratko Nikolic was using a prepared text

16 when he was speaking to the television station?

17 A. No. No. None of us did.

18 Q. Do you know whether he was forced to say what he said that day in

19 the cafe while he was being interviewed by the television station?

20 A. No.

21 MS. SELLERS: Can we please see the next clip.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Mr. Eric, do you know this person?

25 A. I know. This is a person from Jezestica. I think he's now very

Page 3084

1 sick. He had a stroke or something like that. He can no longer move. I

2 know this person, yes.

3 Q. Do you know this person's name?

4 A. Miladin. Miladin Bogdanovic. Yes, he's from Jezestica. I know

5 him.

6 Q. Was he also filmed on the same day by Zvornik TV that you were

7 filmed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And were you present when this part of the video was made?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. And I'll ask you once again: To your knowledge, was he using a

12 prepared text?

13 A. No. No. But there was nothing that was prepared for us to use.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. SELLERS: Can we go to the next clip, please.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. Mr. Eric, I'd ask you to look again and please tell the Trial

19 Chamber if you know this person.

20 A. Yes. This is a very good friend of mine, Goran Djuric.

21 Q. Was this also filmed on the same day that you were filmed by

22 Zvornik TV?

23 A. Yes, the same day.

24 Q. And were you present when this segment of the TV show was filmed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3085

1 Q. And again I ask you: Was this person, to your knowledge, forced

2 to say what he said that day in the cafe to the television station?

3 A. No.

4 MS. SELLERS: I'd like to ask for the next clip of the film,

5 please.

6 [Videotape played]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it important to hear this person's --

8 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to ask a couple of

9 questions about what this person said. The others were more for

10 identification purposes, yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Just that? Just that? You're just

12 going to limit yourself to asking the witness what this person is saying?

13 MS. SELLERS: Identification of the person --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Plus what he's saying, not beyond that?



17 [Videotape played]

18 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. Could we just put a freeze-shot of the

19 person. Thank you.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, did you know the person who we just saw on the clip

21 there?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the name.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I ask you to repeat the name of that person,

25 please, Mr. Eric.

Page 3086

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Jovan Nikolic. I know him

2 very well. He is a relative of mine, or rather, my father's relative.


4 Q. Was this also filmed by the Zvornik TV the same time that you and

5 the other men you've just identified were filmed, and were you also

6 present when this --

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Were you present when this portion of the TV show was --

9 A. Yes, I was present.

10 Q. Now, this portion, Mr. Jovan Nikolic spoke about communications

11 between Milici and Kravica. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber from

12 your knowledge what types of communications existed between Milici and

13 Kravica during this time period of 1992, prior to or during the attack on

14 Kravica.

15 A. What I know of is that we went from Kravica to Milici two or three

16 times, across through Siljkovici, Kostan, Ravni Buljin, Rogac, Milici.

17 I'm really not that familiar with the area. They went there to discuss

18 the linking up of the line at Buljim. I think that was the reason for

19 them going. Once or twice, I think, they went. It's a difficult road to

20 travel. They used a lorry to go, or a military jeep. It's some sort of a

21 forest road.

22 Q. Did you ever go to Milici from Kravica yourself with this group

23 that you're describing as "they would go"?

24 A. No. No. No. No. No.

25 Q. Who would go to Milici from Kravica that you knew of?

Page 3087












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 3088

1 A. I can't remember the specific people who did go. Maybe Jole was

2 one of the people with them. Probably there was a driver who was part of

3 the group, but I can't be certain. Therefore, it's very difficult for me

4 to say. I didn't really memorise that.

5 Q. The people that you just mentioned, were they part of village

6 guards at Kravica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, were there reinforcements that came from Milici to help the

9 village guards in Kravica on the 7th of January, 1993?

10 A. No. They never came. They set out to help us, but they were

11 ambushed at Kostan and they couldn't get through. We heard sounds of

12 shooting. This went on for about half an hour and then it stopped. We

13 knew that they had not broken through. That was once we had set out

14 towards Opravdici on our way to the Drina.

15 Q. Now, is Kostan, one of the places that you testified about

16 earlier, where ambushes would happen?

17 A. Yes. This is an area where Muslims were crossing from Srebrenica

18 across Kostan and Konjevic Polje, Cerska and on to Tuzla. It was an

19 undefended corridor. It wasn't controlled by anyone. On from Buljim and

20 towards Siljkovici, between Siljkovici and Buljim.

21 Q. Thank you. Would you please show the next clip.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, were you present when this part of the TV show was

25 filmed?

Page 3089

1 A. No, I wasn't. This is footage that was taken at the Kravica

2 school. I know where this footage was taken but I wasn't there

3 personally.

4 Q. And is that Jovan Nikolic again of -- again who was speaking on

5 that segment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, you testified earlier that Jovan Nikolic had been injured at

8 the attack on Glogova on the 24th of December, 1992. Are those the

9 injuries that he's referring to in this part of the clip?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And is it correct that he was not present during the attack on

12 Kravica on the 7th of January, 1993?

13 A. No, he wasn't. He was seriously wounded and he was receiving

14 treatment for quite a long time after that.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. SELLERS: I would now like to ask you: Have you ever seen a

17 video cassette of Kravica that filmed the area soon after the

18 January 7th --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. My attention is being drawn to the fact

20 that in the transcript, you have suddenly, or at least recent time been

21 transformed from who you are to Ms. Richardson, Ms. Sellers.

22 MS. SELLERS: It's the brains, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, probably that's it.

24 So could we have -- I know that now it's past, you can't correct

25 the transcript on screen now, but I suppose for the record, I'm just

Page 3090

1 mentioning it wherever there is Ms. Richardson it should be replaced by

2 Ms. Sellers. Okay? Thank you.

3 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Eric, have you ever seen a video cassette that was -- or that

5 shows Kravica soon after the attack on Kravica on the 7th of January,

6 1993?

7 A. Yes. I saw this tape. I'm just not sure when. I think someone

8 brought it from Srebrenica. But I can't remember when.

9 Q. Did you see this tape before you were filmed by the Zvornik TV

10 station?

11 A. I can't be sure about that. I really can't say.

12 Q. And did you see a copy of this video cassette when you looked at

13 the film of the Zvornik TV station in the Office of the Prosecutor a

14 couple of days ago?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did this video cassette, was it part of the Zvornik TV

17 programme?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, could you tell, when you first saw that video cassette, or

20 when you saw it recently, whether it was a video cassette taken possibly

21 by a Bosnian Muslim or a Bosnian Serb?

22 A. It could not have been taken by the Serbs. That tape, I think it

23 was in January 1993 that it was taken, and there were no Serbs in Kravica

24 at the time. Therefore, it would not have been possible for Serbs to have

25 taken that footage. It must have been the Muslims.

Page 3091

1 MS. SELLERS: I would ask the case manager now to place that part

2 of the Zvornik TV show before our screens.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Mr. Eric, would you look at just a couple of those images and tell

6 the Trial Chamber whether you can tell if that's part of the Zvornik TV

7 show.

8 A. Yes. I've already seen this section.

9 MS. SELLERS: Could we continue it, please.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There was this background

12 music. I can't remember the name of the performer now.


14 Q. Is this music that is typically Bosnian Muslim music or Bosnian

15 Serb music?

16 A. For the most part, this would be typical of Bosnian Muslims. This

17 was taken from the direction of Konjevic Polje, so now you pass Sandici on

18 the way to Kravica and then on to Bratunac. I'm talking about the

19 specific portion of the footage.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. SELLERS: Can we continue a little bit.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sveta Milanovic's house.


25 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber if you recognise any image

Page 3092

1 before us now.

2 A. Some sort of a car there and a kiosk. There was a checkpoint

3 there, and you couldn't get through and continue on to Sandici. There was

4 some sort of a cabin here that the guards used.

5 Q. Was that a village guard checkpoint?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are we entering into the village of Kravica and the direction that

8 this film is moving?

9 A. Yes. From Konjevic Polje.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. SELLERS: Could we continue.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. SELLERS: Could you stop for one second, please.

14 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you, Mr. Eric: Do you know of any Bosnian

15 Serbs that were walking around the village of Kravica, to your knowledge,

16 within the following days or weeks of the attack?

17 A. Well, if you look at this tape, the date displayed is the 23rd of

18 January, 1993, if it is the correct date, and it should be. Therefore,

19 this is 16 days after Kravica was taken, and the people you can see in the

20 footage are Muslims. These people can't be Serbs, because Kravica was

21 only liberated in March. These people must be Muslims.

22 Q.

23 MS. SELLERS: Would you continue the tape, please.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my own field. The Kravica

Page 3093












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 3094

1 cooperative.

2 MS. SELLERS: Stop there.

3 Q. Is this the cooperative where fruits and vegetables and food were

4 brought before --

5 A. Yes, yes, precisely.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. SELLERS: Please continue.

8 [Videotape played]


10 Q. Mr. Eric, if you recognise any of the houses in this film --

11 A. There is Slavorad Vasic's house, Slavorad Vasic.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. Novica Obaskic's house. Miladin Popovic's house. Ranko

14 Cvijetinovic house. Neso Milovanovic's house; my best man. Milos

15 Milanovic's house. Ziko, who lives in Austria, Lazo Pejic's house. Raso

16 Eric's house. He's a relation of mine. This is the school building. And

17 this is my house now, the one without a roof.

18 Q. Is your house between the building with a little bit of red on it

19 and then the other building that is lying to the right of the screen? The

20 image is a bit fuzzy. Is that what you're indicating is your house?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. Now, with the video that you've just seen, could you please tell

23 the --

24 A. But I did recognise it nevertheless.

25 Q. The video you've just seen, would you say that these were the

Page 3095

1 houses in the state of damage that they were on the 7th of January, 1993?

2 MR. JONES: I don't know how the witness is able to say that,

3 unless he's going to go through house by house and say that he saw each of

4 those houses on the day. He's being invited to make a very broad brush

5 assertion that yes indeed every one of those houses was damaged in that

6 state on that day.

7 MS. SELLERS: I'll reframe the question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You need to rephrase the question in any case,

9 Ms. Sellers. But the problem that I have goes beyond what Mr. Jones has

10 just pointed out, namely, the images are so blurred to start with. And we

11 are fast moving at the same time. Even if we stop and we have stills and

12 ask the witness to look at stills. I mean, we're not going to get

13 anywhere.

14 MR. JONES: There's also been no independent confirmation of the

15 date. The witness said this should be correct. But there's no reason for

16 believing that the date is correct.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless we get the person or persons who filmed this

18 to confirm that we're never going to know, Mr. Jones.

19 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I understand, and that could be typical

21 questions for cross-examination. What I do want to say is that the

22 witness can speak about whether there was damage, the damage that he's

23 seen on the film, whether that damage in his knowledge was made on the 7th

24 of January.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let's rephrase it and I start and then you can

Page 3096

1 continue Ms. Sellers.

2 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You have indicated to us, Mr. Eric, several of these

4 houses and identified who they belong to.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: To your knowledge, were these houses damaged or

7 destroyed on the 7th of January?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: On what basis do you maintain that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you have this tape footage. I

11 can see it here. And the last time I testified, I had a photo of my own

12 house.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. You can proceed on your own now,

14 Ms. Sellers.

15 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would ask that we just

16 roll the part where Mr. Eric said it was his house again, that part of the

17 film.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's supposed to be a roofless house, Ms. Sellers.

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, forever.


22 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, is that your house in the far background?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 MS. SELLERS: I would now ask the Trial Chamber -- I'm sorry, the

25 registrar if we could see Exhibit -- it used to be P400. We're going to

Page 3097

1 ask for a new number. It's ERN 01087916.

2 Q. Mr. Eric, do you recognise the picture in front of you? Would you

3 please tell the Trial Chamber what that is a picture of.

4 A. This is my house, my father's house, if you like. This is the

5 house where I grew up.

6 Q. And was this house damaged on the 7th of January, 1993 in the

7 attack on Kravica?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, you just recognised a house and the video clip that you said

10 was your house. The house that you referred to in the video clip, is this

11 the same house that we're seeing in the picture now?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you recognise your house in the video clip with the same type

14 of damage that you recognise your house in the picture having?

15 A. Yes. It can be seen quite clearly. I think there is no doubt. I

16 would certainly always be able to recognise my own house.

17 MS. SELLERS: I would ask that -- Your Honours --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This photo bearing ERN number 01087916 is

19 being tendered, admitted into evidence, and marked as Prosecution

20 Exhibit P463.

21 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Can we continue the videotape, please.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the bus station in Kravica.

25 It's around the centre of the village, more or less. The school is in

Page 3098

1 this direction, over there, but this is the sort of centre of the village.

2 The school is a hundred metres further down. Then the medical, the health

3 centre was behind. You can see the road.

4 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. Could you go back just a bit before

5 this, right after we come across what appears to be a bridge. Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Eric, the image that you have on the screen in front of you,

7 could you --

8 MS. SELLERS: Can we roll back just a little bit more. Thank you.

9 Okay.

10 Q. Do you recognise the building on the screen in front of you?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: There are two buildings, according to me,

12 Ms. Sellers.

13 MS. SELLERS: Yes. The one to the left-hand side, please.

14 A. To the left is the house of Zoran Ilic. Afterwards, when it was

15 repaired in 1994, that's where these statements were taken from, on the

16 ground floor, the ones that we saw earlier. And this is the other house

17 of Milos and Svetan [phoen] Popovic. They're brothers. This is the other

18 house.

19 Q. Is this where the Zvornik film crew filmed you and the others in

20 the house that you're indicating, to the left?

21 A. Yes. Yes. In this room on the ground floor.

22 Q. Now, from looking at this house, can you please tell the Trial

23 Chamber whether this house had a roof on it before January 7th, 1993.

24 A. Yes, it did. It burned down. It didn't have a concrete ceiling,

25 and that's why it all collapsed. This other house did, so that's why the

Page 3099












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 3100

1 damage was not the same. The roof did not collapse.

2 Q. And in front of the house, did that house look as it does in the

3 film prior to the 7th of January, 1993?

4 A. No. Before January the 7th, it was covered properly. It had a

5 roof. But now you can see that it was burned, and this was filmed on the

6 23rd of January, so you can see there that the house had been burned.

7 MS. SELLERS: Could we continue, please.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the house of Drago Radovic.

10 MS. SELLERS: Stop for a second, please.

11 Q. The house we just saw, did that house have a roof on it prior to

12 the 7th of January, 1993?

13 A. Yes, it did. Also the local hall had a roof, as well as the post

14 office. They both had roofs before January the 7th.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Eric, is this near where you worked in the clinic that

16 you testified about before?

17 A. Yes. The clinic is between these two buildings, maybe some ten

18 metres behind this other building.

19 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber: What is the building on the

20 left-hand side of the screen, and what is the building on the right-hand

21 side that looks as if it's directly in front of us?

22 A. To the left is the cultural hall. That's what we could call it.

23 On the right side is the local municipal office, the post office, and a

24 shop.

25 Q. And to your knowledge, were these two buildings damaged in the

Page 3101

1 attack of the 7th of January, 1993?

2 A. Yes, they were.

3 MS. SELLERS: Please continue.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the house of Milan Milocevic

6 [phoen], the house of Rajko Milocevic.


8 Q. And did you notice any damage on that house in the film that

9 you're seeing now?

10 A. Yes. You can see one is burned down, and you can see that the

11 other one had also been burned and you can see the soot. It's still in

12 that state, more or less, today, and you can see the traces of fire on the

13 houses.

14 Q. And to your knowledge, was that house in that state prior to the

15 7th of January, 1993? Was it burned like that before?

16 A. No, it wasn't. It was a very nicely kept house, and you can see

17 here that it was burned.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. SELLERS: Please continue.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house of Dragan Saljevic.


23 Q. And again, were the damages, to your knowledge, occurring or did

24 they occur on the 7th of January, 1993, of these houses that we're seeing

25 on the video?

Page 3102

1 A. This is the house of Ziko Milovcevic. I made a mistake here. This

2 is the house of Zivojin Milovcevic. The footage is not quite clear, so at

3 first I wasn't quite certain. So this is the house of Zivojin Milovcevic

4 and it burned for a Christmas, on the 7th of January, just like mine.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. SELLERS: Please continue.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Mr. Eric, can you make any commentary about the house we're seeing

10 on the film now?

11 A. This is the house of Stanko Grujic. It burned down. Before the

12 7th of January it had a roof, but now you can see that it has no roof and

13 that it has been burned.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And before we proceed any further, it's more clear

15 now than it has ever been before.

16 Witness, if you look just underneath, just below that house, there

17 are some words there in Cyrillic and in capital letters. Can you read

18 them out to us, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. This was probably

20 written by Television Zvornik, and it states "Muslim video footage."

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One further question. All along we have been

22 hearing some background music, and also some singing. You have already

23 given us some information on whether you consider this to be Bosnian

24 Muslim music or Bosnian Serb music, and you said that you consider it to

25 be more likely Bosnian Muslim music. Do you have an idea at all what the

Page 3103

1 words that are being sung say? Is this -- is this -- what kind of song is

2 this?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a song by the brothers

4 Bajic. They're Muslims, these people. These are not nationalistic songs.

5 This is music that was listened to by Muslims mostly. Our people listened

6 to it as well, but not so much. You can recognise the instruments that

7 are being used. Some of the songs are about love. They mention girls and

8 so on.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But you understood exactly where I was aiming, where

10 I was getting. This is not a nationalistic song; it's just pure musical

11 entertainment?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. The music is played in the

13 background as they were recording. I guess it was music that was in the

14 vehicle that they were driving in.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, thank you. We just have a couple more

17 seconds to go in the video clip.

18 Please proceed.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Mika's house. I cannot

21 remember the last name. No. Grujic. The house of Miko Grujic and of his

22 father over here.


24 Q. And were these houses destroyed prior to the 7th of January, 1993

25 or, like all the other houses that you've described, has this occurred, to

Page 3104

1 your opinion, during the attack?

2 A. Afterwards.

3 MS. SELLERS: Please continue.

4 [Videotape played]


6 Q. Mr. Eric, do you notice whether there is snow on the ground at the

7 time of the filming of this video or not?

8 A. Yes. Yes. I can see snow, yes.

9 MS. SELLERS: Please continue.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the house of Saljevic

12 Dragan. This is the house of -- I can't remember. The woman's name is

13 Zorka. This is already on the way out of the village.


15 Q. Okay. And can you notice any damage at all on this house?

16 A. Well, you can see that the window frames have been burned, the

17 roof damaged partially. Each house did not burn down completely. Some

18 burned more, some less. But most of them were burned.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. SELLERS: Please continue.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. Mr. Eric, do you recognise this house?

24 A. Yes. Madzar Saljevic. That is the name of the person. I know

25 him well. You can see this house, how it had burned down. It's a

Page 3105












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 3106

1 slightly older house that does not have the ceiling concrete layer, so

2 it's easier to burn.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. SELLERS: Please continue.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Mr. Eric, in which direction are we going now, according to the

8 film?

9 A. This is on the way out of Kravica. This is the village of Kajici,

10 in the direction of Bratunac. I think that this footage will just go up

11 until Glogova, not much further than that, and it will end. This is the

12 village of Kajici, and this is the house of my cousin Marko.

13 Q. And the road that has been shown on this videotape, is this the

14 road that links Kravica and Bratunac that you testified about earlier?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, after the end of this videotape, there

17 will be no further questions from the Prosecutor. Thank you.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the house of my cousin

20 Nikolic, Dusko.


22 Q. That house was also destroyed on the 7th of January, 1993,

23 Mr. Eric?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it's about -- what's the distance between Kravica and this

Page 3107

1 house of your cousin?

2 A. Perhaps a kilometre or so, maybe a little more. About a

3 kilometre, and two, three, five hundred metres, towards Bratunac.

4 Q. And were these houses that we've seen on today's video, were these

5 how the houses look or appear to you when you re-entered Kravica on the

6 15th of March, 1993?

7 A. Yes. Perhaps in the meantime, since the 23rd, until March, some

8 houses were destroyed a little more. If the house was new, perhaps the

9 roof was taken apart or something, but it was more or less in this state.

10 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution has no

11 further questions.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before I hand you over to the Defence,

13 Mr. Eric, on the 7th of January, was there snow in Kravica and in the

14 surroundings?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And where were you on the 23rd of January of 1993?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 23rd of January, I was in the

18 2nd Battalion, towards Voljavica.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: How far were you from Kravica?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 15 kilometres.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you be in a position to confirm to us whether,

22 on the 23rd of January, there would have been snow still on the ground, on

23 the 23rd of January, 1993?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't really notice that or

25 remember that, but I think so, because we have winters with snow over

Page 3108

1 there. The winter is not like it is here. But I wasn't really following

2 it. I don't remember noticing it. But I think that there was snow.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm now passing you on to Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Just one thing. I would

5 just like to move the video into evidence, please.


7 MS. SELLERS: And I would emphasise again for the Prosecution

8 point of view, it's the second part that we've seen today.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Has this been pre-marked, Mr. Siller? 448. Thank

10 you. 448 is the first one that we saw? 448 is the first video that we

11 saw, in which the witness appears -- or is it the same.

12 MS. SELLERS: That is all one video.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Thank you. All right. So it remains

14 448. And that has already been tendered and admitted.

15 MS. SELLERS: It's been given a number.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But 448.1 was the transcript. 448.1 is the

18 transcript. Excerpt of the transcript. Just one page. Yes. So the

19 entire video is being tendered and received in evidence and marked as

20 Prosecution Exhibit P448. And to be precise, Ms. Sellers, this has ERN

21 number V000-5206. Is that correct?

22 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honours. I believe that the number --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's 446. That's 446.

24 MS. SELLERS: 2774. You'll be receiving copies, I'm informed, at

25 a different time.

Page 3109

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

2 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 Yes, Madam Vidovic. Would you like to start your

5 cross-examination now or would you like to have the break now? We can

6 start and have the break in ten minutes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to put a

8 few questions to him about this video and then we will continue.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Eric.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. Earlier you responded to a question by the Prosecutor by saying

13 that on the 7th of January, during the attack, you wore a uniform. That

14 was the old JNA uniform, wasn't it?

15 A. Well, it was more parts of the old JNA uniform.

16 Q. But nevertheless, a uniform?

17 A. The sweater was civilian, the boots were civilian, also the

18 trousers, so it was half/half.

19 Q. Under oath, on the 26th of October, 2004, in response to my

20 question about what you wore and what other people wore during the

21 attack - and this is page 1265, line 25 of the transcript - you said, for

22 example: "I personally, on the 7th of January, wore a civilian uniform."

23 This was not true; isn't that so?

24 A. But I also gave you a paper.

25 Q. Can you respond to my question, please.

Page 3110

1 A. I was never a civilian. I was 28 years old. So it makes no sense

2 for me to be a civilian, to be in civilian clothes. Yes, but I couldn't

3 have been a civilian. There was no question of that. Before that, I gave

4 you a paper which said what my engagement was in the army.

5 Q. Mr. Eric, I would ask you, please, to respond to my questions, as

6 briefly as possible, with yes or no.

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. In the transcript of the 26th of October, on page 1265, under

9 oath, you said that on that day you wore civilian clothing. That was not

10 true, was it?

11 A. It was more civilian clothing rather than military clothing.

12 Q. But today you described that you were wearing a military jacket.

13 A. Yes. When we were leaving to be evacuated, I put the jacket on

14 because outside it was cold. But you can see what it looked like on the

15 7th of --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic and Mr. Eric, and this is the last time

17 I'm going to say this. You are not allowing an interval of time between

18 question and answer. You're not even allowing -- Ms. Vidovic is not

19 allowing the witness to even finish his question, and the witness is not

20 allowing Ms. Vidovic to finish her question. So we can't go on like this.

21 If you continue like this, I will have to stop the cross-examination. I'm

22 making it very clear.

23 Yes, Madam Vidovic, please repeat your question.

24 And you, Mr. Eric, allow her to finish her question, allowing

25 enough time for the interpreters to translate to us in English and to

Page 3111

1 others in French.

2 Yes, Madam Vidovic. Could you repeat your question. And I would

3 suggest if you are referring the witness to a particular part of the

4 transcript of the sitting of the 26th or 23rd of October, that you bring

5 that out and you read precisely what he said. Because I do remember he

6 gave more details about his clothing than what you're putting to him.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Eric, I am now going to read to you a part of your testimony

9 on page 1226 of the 26th of October of 2004. To the question of His

10 Honour Judge Brydensholt, you answered -- the Judge asked you: "Were

11 people wearing uniforms?" "I saw that about 150 uniforms remained on the

12 7th of January." "Did the guards from uniforms on the 7th of January?"

13 You answered: "No. For example, I personally, on the 7th of January,

14 wore civilian clothes. I had a shirt, which was part of the JNA uniform."

15 My question is: You said today: "I had a shirt, I had trousers,

16 and I had a jacket."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also said that you had an olive-drab jacket.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is this correct?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Also, you had an olive-drab shirt and olive-drab trousers; isn't

23 that so?

24 A. Yes, Ms. Vidovic, and I never said that I was a civilian. Let's

25 be clear about this, but that I was a soldier, and I gave you a paper

Page 3112

1 about my participation in the war. So there is nothing in dispute about

2 that. We're talking about parts of clothing, and if this is important, we

3 can go into this in detail very well.

4 Q. We are talking about uniforms here. Also, today you said that you

5 received from the JNA in Kravica about 100 to 150 uniforms.

6 A. Maybe more or maybe less. We're talking about old JNA uniforms.

7 That is correct. There were also boots, belts, the odd shirts, and so on,

8 cap.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Eric. During the footage that we were

10 shown, you said that this music that we heard is more customary for

11 Muslims.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Isn't it so that the Bajic Brothers actually recorded their music

14 in Serbia?

15 A. Well, I don't know where they recorded the music, but they're

16 listeners were mostly Muslims. I don't know where they recorded their

17 music in the former Yugoslavia, but I remember well -- I mean, it's a good

18 thing that I remember that it was them who were singing. I don't know.

19 It's possible that they recorded their music in Belgrade. That's

20 something that I don't know.

21 Q. Why do you say that this is music that was listened to by the

22 Muslims? What do you base that on?

23 A. Well, this is something that I know. I know that in my area, I

24 grew up with Muslims, near Muslims, and they usually listen to that music.

25 They listen to other music as well, but this kind of music was something

Page 3113

1 that mostly Muslims listened to.

2 Q. Very well, Witness. Today you were shown a series of houses. Did

3 you see those houses burning on the 7th of January, 1993?

4 A. No. I wasn't able to see that.

5 Q. So you conclude that they were burned based on the footage that we

6 saw?

7 A. Well, I know that they were set on fire on the 7th. When we went

8 back in March, this is what the houses looked like. So I don't know when

9 else they could have been burned.

10 Q. So you saw those houses in March, and you saw them now, in this

11 footage. It's true, isn't it, that you did not see them burning?

12 A. Well, you cannot really see that. Sandici is far away. It wasn't

13 possible to see that. I couldn't even see the centre of the village. You

14 could see smoke from the surrounding hills. You couldn't see them burning

15 from the direction in which we were evacuating.

16 Q. At the time when you were being shown the footage, you saw the

17 date 23rd of January, 1993, and you said that that should have been the

18 date.

19 A. It was the date for sure. I am sure of that now. I saw this tape

20 before. I saw it as part of the Zvornik TV broadcast.

21 Q. Based on what are you sure that this was recorded on the 23rd of

22 January? Were you there when this programme was recorded?

23 A. No, I wasn't. Excuse me. But in January 1992, we were in

24 Kravica, also in 1991; 1991 and 1992. Then we were there in 1993, in

25 March; and in 1994; and since then we were there all the time. So this

Page 3114

1 damage could have been caused only in that period, because that's when the

2 Muslims were in Kravica.

3 Q. In the footage you saw a group of people, and you said: "These

4 are Muslims."

5 A. Those people could not have been Serbs, not at the time.

6 Q. Very well. Do you agree that those people were civilians?

7 A. You can't see very clearly. There may have been fighters among

8 them, civilians too. Maybe they were looting, maybe they were just

9 passing through. I really can't say what exactly they were doing. I

10 can't say anything about that.

11 Q. Very well. I'll just ask you this question: Mr. Eric, is it

12 possible that it was precisely those people that you saw in the footage

13 were going around taking roofs off houses, removing woodwork and,

14 generally speaking, looting, as you said?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. This is pure speculation, Madam

16 Vidovic.

17 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer the question, Mr. Eric.

19 Shall we have the break now?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed we can, Your Honour.

21 I'll continue later.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... 25-minute break

23 starting from now. Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

Page 3115

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's proceed. And once more, may I appeal to

2 both of you, Mr. Eric in particular, but also Ms. Vidovic, to allow an

3 interval between question and answer.

4 Madam Vidovic, you may proceed. Thank you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Eric, whenever possible, please answer yes, no, I don't know.

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. It is true, isn't it, that in the area, the SDS held a promotional

9 rally in Kravica, of all places, at that time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Does that not mean that it was precisely in Kravica that it had a

12 lot of support and supporters who supported the party platform?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It is true, isn't it, that the SDS was in control of the Crisis

15 Staff in order to secure the implementation of its own policies?

16 A. This is not something that I'm aware of. I don't think I can

17 answer this question.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic, because I think we need

19 to be clear about this. The idea of recalling this witness was not to put

20 to him questions that you could easily have put when he was here in

21 October, and you didn't. The whole idea is to put -- was to put to him

22 questions that you couldn't have possibly put to him on the 26th of

23 October, because the videotape that we've seen earlier was not available

24 then. So these last two questions you could have easily put to him in

25 October, and you didn't. So I will -- you know exactly what I mean. All

Page 3116

1 right.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, may I be allowed

3 to respond? This footage was the first time I learned during Mr. Jovan

4 Nikolic's interview, which is part of the footage, that an SDS promotional

5 rally in the area was held in Kravica. Furthermore, certain persons are

6 referred to that are related to the SDS and the Crisis Staff. We didn't

7 know about that, because if we had known about that, I certainly would

8 have asked the question.

9 In addition to that, except for Mr. Jovan Nikolic, several other

10 people are interviewed in the footage. Mr. Rase Milanovic [phoen], for

11 example, is bringing up issues that are of great relevance to our defence,

12 and this is another thing that we knew nothing about at the time. That is

13 why we remain adamant that we should pursue this line of questioning.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's fair enough. Thank you, Madam

15 Vidovic. You may proceed. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Eric, the last time around you testified that you were a

18 member of the Crisis Staff establishment-wise, in terms of your

19 establishment rank, didn't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There were other people who were members of the Crisis Staff in

22 the same way as you, according to their establishment rank, weren't there?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You -- do you know Mr. Luka Bogdanovic, who is another person from

Page 3117

1 the area and he's a well-known person, isn't he?

2 A. Yes, I know him.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Vidovic. When the interpreter --

4 when the witness nods instead of answering yes, what I would like to see

5 or what I would like to have in place is not what we have now, in other

6 words, we get a record in the transcript by the interpreter saying the

7 witness nods. What I would like to see is that the interpreter draw my

8 attention that they haven't heard the witness say yes or no, and then

9 we'll ask the witness to answer the question. Because this is the

10 interpreter's interpretation of what the witness supposedly is doing, and

11 we need a specific answer, yes or no.

12 So the question was, Mr. Eric, that there were other people who

13 were members of the Crisis Staff in the same way as you were, according to

14 their establishment rank, weren't there? What did you answer, or what did

15 you want to answer to that question?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe if I re-ask the

18 question.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You should start even with the question

20 before, with the prior one; in other words, whether it is true that he

21 himself was member of the Crisis Staff on the basis of his rank or his

22 position.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Were you a member of the Crisis Staff, based on your establishment

25 rank?

Page 3118

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There were other persons too, weren't there, who were members of

3 the Crisis Staff, based on their establishment ranks, weren't there?

4 A. Probably. Yes, they must have been members too.

5 Q. You know Mr. Luka Bogdanovic, don't you? He comes from the same

6 area?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. He too was a member of the Kravica Crisis Staff at the same time

9 as you were, wasn't he?

10 A. Maybe it was recorded that way, but he wasn't. I don't really

11 know. I didn't really go to those meetings very often myself. I was

12 under no obligation to attend, so I went maybe three times altogether.

13 But only in relation to my own specific duties. Therefore, I don't really

14 know who attended or when they met. I simply wasn't interested.

15 Q. Did Mr. Luka Bogdanovic attend meetings of the Crisis Staff?

16 A. I don't know. I have no idea.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, can he tell us how often the Crisis

18 Staff met at the time?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure which period of time

20 they met in. I really didn't follow the situation. If I had known at

21 that time that I would need the information one day, I would have been

22 more interested. I was more involved with the medical centre, because

23 that was my specific duty. I'm not a curious person by nature.

24 Therefore, I really can't answer that question. I'm afraid if I give you

25 an answer, I might go wrong. Therefore, I think I'm better off remaining

Page 3119

1 silent on the issue, if I'm not certain.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Is it correct, or rather, it is correct, isn't it, that Luka

4 Bogdanovic was a member of the Crisis Staff as a representative of the

5 police, wasn't he?

6 A. No, not really. I hardly ever saw him in Kravica. He was in the

7 civilian police at the time, wasn't he?

8 Q. Can you explain why it was that you said he maybe was recorded

9 there, but he was not a member of the Crisis Staff?

10 A. That may be what the book says. The writer from the last time,

11 Boro Miljanovic, that he recorded him as a member of the Crisis Staff, but

12 I really can't say.

13 Q. Can I have the usher's assistance now, please. I would like to

14 place a public security station Bratunac document on the ELMO. Can you

15 please just show the witness this document, and can it please be placed on

16 the ELMO. The document bears the following number: 01320218. This is a

17 public security station document, a list of workers who, in April,

18 performed duties at the public security station during the month of April

19 and who should be paid in advance for this month.

20 Your Honours, page 1 bears salaries for May 1992.

21 Q. Can you please look at this document carefully, especially the

22 first two names on the list. The first name is Mr. Milutin Milosevic?

23 A. The deceased Milutin Milosevic. That's correct. The next name is

24 Bogdanovic Luka.

25 Q. Yes. That's correct, isn't it, he is listed here as a komandir.

Page 3120

1 It is true, isn't it, that Mr. Luka Bogdanovic was a close

2 associate of the late Milutin Milosevic, was he not?

3 A. They were both members of the police. Now, as to whether they

4 were close associates or not, I really can't venture a guess there. I

5 can't say. I've never thought about it.

6 Q. Very well. Can you now please look at this list, and can you now

7 turn to the last page, please. It's true, isn't it, that this list

8 contains 136 names?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. It's true, isn't it, that this Bratunac public security station

11 unit from April 1992 to the events in January 1993 took part in

12 coordinated military activity in the Kravica area?

13 A. I have no idea. I don't know. I don't think so, though. But I

14 can't be sure. I don't know. As simple as that. I don't know.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please. For the record, Madam Vidovic,

16 although you have suggested to the witness that this list contains 136

17 names and he seems to have agreed with you, in reality, from what I can

18 establish, having a look at this, there are two handwritten -- additional

19 handwritten names, and that would bring the total to 138. Correct me if

20 I'm wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 137.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're quite right.

23 137 would be the correct number.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: If you tell me 137, I'm quite right, you're not

25 telling me something that is correct. There is an additional name on the

Page 3121

1 last page, Djokanovic Radojko, and on the previous page, at the bottom of

2 the page, there is -- I can't read the name. Milovan Milanovic [phoen],

3 Milovan Milanovic. Yes. Which basically would add to 138. I don't see

4 any of the other names being struck off. They are all there. All right?

5 We are agreed on that?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's just for the record. Yes. Judge Eser would

11 like to put a question.

12 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Eric, in the English translation the list speaks

13 of public security station, and the signature of Bogdanovic Luka speaks of

14 militia station commander. Now, what does it mean, the -- to my mind that

15 is somehow a difference between the name of the list, public security

16 station, and the signature of Bogdanovic. Has it been the same unit or

17 has there been different organisations which corroborated in some way?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the same unit. This is the

19 public security station. He must have been the police commander, the

20 commander of the police itself, the building itself was referred to as the

21 public security station. I guess that's how it was. I'm not sure I can

22 really explain this fully. I've never been a member of the police.

23 Therefore, I'm not exactly clear about these things myself.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. You may proceed, please.

Page 3122

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did you know the late Milutin Milosevic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it not true that he was the chief of the public security

5 station?

6 A. Yes, I think so.

7 Q. It's true, isn't it, that on the 29th of May, 1992, there was

8 fierce fighting going on, and Milutin Milosevic was killed?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move on to my

11 next question, I move that this previous document be assigned a number.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It will certainly be assigned a number.

13 May I ask you a question, Madam Vidovic. The document itself,

14 starting on 01320218, basically indicates or gives us a list of employees

15 who performed duties at the public security station during the month of

16 April and who should be paid in advance for this month.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you explain that? Because it seems that what we

19 have here is payment in advance for the month of May. Is that correct or

20 not? In other words, I take it that whatever was due to them for the

21 month of April had already been settled and what is being shown on the

22 document is what they should be paid in advance for the month of May.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document is from

24 the financial records of the Bratunac Brigade, personal income in relation

25 to May 1995. And the number is 01320145. It is true, though, that the

Page 3123

1 document itself, the document itself, is a list of employees that carried

2 out their duties throughout the month of April, and these are to be paid

3 in advance. This is what they choose to call it. Where I come from, when

4 you speak about an advance, you can mean different things. Sometimes

5 advances were paid in relation to different periods of time. For about

6 half a year, and then later the rest would be paid. So that's that. Maybe

7 they had certain sums of money at their disposal at the time and then

8 later the differences between these amounts were also paid. But as I

9 said, this is a document from the financial records of the Bratunac

10 Brigade for May 1992.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser.

12 JUDGE ESER: Ms. Vidovic, I have an additional question. Would

13 you please put on the ELMO, Madam Usher, the page 3 of the original. If

14 you look to numbers 95 to numbers 106, or even 107, you get the impression

15 that you have the same signature, signature of the same person. Now, how

16 can it be explained that you have the same signature? So was it a lump

17 sum for a couple of people who --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's possible that one

19 person picked up salaries for people close to them, for friends, and

20 signed for them that they had taken these amounts of money, and then later

21 distributed it to the people in question. This is not something that is

22 unusual. It happens where we come from.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Registrar, this document is being tendered

24 by --

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me. Before you continue, I just

Page 3124

1 want to put a couple of Prosecution objections on the record.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Sellers.

3 MS. SELLERS: I would just like to note that the first page of

4 this exhibit appears to be a handwritten page translated into the date of

5 May 1992, and that if you would look at the rest of the document that's in

6 Bosnian language, it appears to be typewritten completely, and I see no

7 indication that 1992, that year, in any of the parts that are typewritten,

8 only a reference to what has been translated as April, and neither is

9 there a date after the signature on the -- under the seal of the

10 typewritten part. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with the first point raised by

12 Ms. Sellers. We have two parts to this document that you seek to tender,

13 Madam Vidovic, and on the face of it, at least, they don't seem to be --

14 or to belong to the same document. What's your answer to that?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the first part of the

16 document is this cover page, the first page, of the entire financial

17 documentation from May 1992, precisely as it was disclosed to us by the

18 Prosecution. It's a document of over 100 pages. So it's the same way

19 that it was disclosed by the Prosecution. And I brought this cover page.

20 Not only for this month; two or three days ago, we had documents for

21 November 1992 disclosed, and similarly, there's a handwritten page for

22 November, while the rest of the document are typewritten pages. So we are

23 presenting it in the same way that it was disclosed to us. And I am using

24 it in the same way.

25 If the Prosecutor doubts or suspects that the Defence did some

Page 3125

1 additional work on these documents, I can then present the entire document

2 for personal salaries for May 1992, just as it was disclosed to us. They

3 disclosed that same document on EDS, in the same form that I'm using it

4 now.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The second point raised is -- or would require you

6 to explain on what basis you come to the conclusion that the rest of the

7 document, starting on 01320218 and finishing ending on three pages later,

8 after, 1320221, refers to April 1992 and not to April of any other year.

9 Because there doesn't seem to be anything on these four pages that could

10 be indicative of the year to which the document refers.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document, because

12 of the death of Milutin Milosevic, who was killed in May 1992, must refer

13 to this month. But I repeat: That part of the financial documentation of

14 the Bratunac Brigade was disclosed to us as part of a hundred-page

15 document for May 1992, and this, these pages, are part of that document.

16 But if you allow me, perhaps I can ask the witness some questions in

17 reference to this.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't see.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So one moment before you proceed, Madam Vidovic,

22 because we have to get this sorted out.

23 The position as we see it is as follows: It seems, and there is

24 no reason for us to doubt that, that this document forms part of a larger

25 document which was disclosed by the Prosecutor herself to the Defence. So

Page 3126

1 according to what has been explained to us by Madam Vidovic, this single

2 page should form part of that document, and the other four pages, although

3 they are not sequentially following the previous page, should form part of

4 the same document.

5 We have also taken note of the point raised by you that there is

6 nothing on the face of this document barring page 1 that is indicative or

7 could be indicative that we're talking of April 1992, and not some other

8 year. That is true as well. But we have also taken note of what has been

9 submitted by Madam Vidovic, namely, that Milosevic Milutin was killed in

10 May of that year. So it couldn't possibly refer to post-April 1992.

11 Admittedly, it could refer to pre-1992. I suppose that once you have the

12 entire document at your disposal, because it's you who have handed it over

13 to the Defence, you can check that. If you have further reasons to doubt

14 any of the matters or the points that we have tried to clear, then you

15 will let us know. In the meantime, we are admitting this document and we

16 are marking it as D1 --

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D127.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: 127.

19 MS. SELLERS: Fine, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Eric, it is correct that on the 29th of May, 1992 the late

23 Mr. Milutin Milosevic was killed?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I -- I haven't -- I haven't

25 heard Mr. Eric answer the question. And in fact, in the transcript, there

Page 3127

1 is nothing.

2 Mr. Eric, is it true --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not saying -- speaking loudly

4 because of you. I didn't want to disturb you, so that's why I said it

5 quietly.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Disturb who? Could you answer the question now,

7 please. Is it correct that on the 29th of May, 1992, Mr. Milutin

8 Milosevic was killed?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was killed.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next question, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. It was a large and coordinated action of the TO forces of Kravica,

13 and the police forces under the command of Milosevic, which on that day

14 attacked the Muslim village of Sandici, with the intention of cleansing

15 it; isn't that true?

16 A. No. They were going to pull out the personnel carrier that was

17 left behind. It wasn't about Sandici. There was a transporter going

18 towards Milici that encountered a barricade, an ambush, and I don't know

19 whether it was going towards Pervane or something. I think that's what

20 it's about, as far as I know.

21 Q. And whose transporter was it?

22 A. It was a Serbian vehicle, an armoured combat vehicle. I'm not

23 sure what the exact name of it is.

24 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the Kravica forces had an armoured

25 vehicle?

Page 3128

1 A. No, that is not true.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Eric, you are not allowing an interval after

3 Madam Vidovic's questions. Please allow a short interval of time, because

4 the interpreters will find it difficult to catch up with you.

5 Yes. My apologies to you, Madam Vidovic. Please move ahead.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Whose APC was it?

8 A. It belonged to the Bratunac Brigade.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that the witness be

11 shown Defence Exhibit D123.

12 Q. Witness, could you please look at this list. It is the list of

13 those killed in Sandici. Do you agree, could you please look at the list.

14 The first 11 people were killed on the 29th of May, 1992, in Sandici?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please look at the name under number 3, Milutin

17 Milosevic, son of Stevo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So this is Mr. Milosevic Milutin, the chief of the public security

20 station. It's true, isn't it, that he was killed in Sandici?

21 A. I think he was caught alive and I think that they killed him.

22 Yes, he was killed. He was caught alive.

23 Q. Mr. Eric, could you please reply only to my questions. Is it true

24 that he was killed on the 29th of May, 1992?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already told us --

Page 3129

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer of the

2 witness because he was speaking at the same time as the translation was

3 going on.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he said --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: He has told us already about three or four times

6 that Milutin Milosevic was killed on the 29th of May.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. Mr. Eric, you're a medical technician and a member of the Crisis

9 Staff.

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. And you know that many people from Serbia and the Serbian Krajina

12 in Croatia were killed in the Kravica front?

13 A. No, not many. There were some, but not many.

14 Q. Could you please look once again at this list.

15 A. This list? Yes.

16 Q. Could you look at the names of these people and see where they

17 come from.

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. On the 29th, several people were killed who are not from Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina. Do you agree?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Eric. I would like to ask you something else now.

23 Your close cousin, relative, is Golub Eric?

24 A. That is my grandfather's brother.

25 Q. Isn't it true that his real name is Bogoljub?

Page 3130

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. Thank you. Isn't it true that before the attack on the 7th of

3 January, before the January events, the events of January 1993, the

4 majority of women, children, and elderly men, or the infirm, were moved

5 out from the Kravica area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And mostly fighters remained in that area; isn't that true?

8 A. Ranging from 15 to 80 years of age, yes.

9 Q. In your testimony last time, you said that the Kravica area did

10 not have large quantities of weapons. Is this true?

11 A. No, not major quantities, no.

12 Q. It's true, actually, that Kravica was a Serbian stronghold, isn't

13 it?

14 A. Your Honour, if you permit me, I would just like to clarify this

15 with a couple of words.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask him

17 questions.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will be very brief.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Eric, could you please kindly answer the

20 question whether it was a stronghold, Serbian stronghold or not, with a

21 yes or a no. Then if you need to explain something else, you need to tell

22 us what you need to explain and why you need to explain it.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely in support of this

24 question, I actually wanted to clarify certain things. I'm here in this

25 Tribunal for the second time now, and I have noticed that the Prosecution

Page 3131

1 wants to prove that Kravica was actually an unprotected, undefended

2 Serbian village. And the Defence, on the other hand, wants to say that it

3 was a strong Serbian stronghold. Gentlemen, Kravica was not one thing or

4 the other.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How strong and fortified it was, how

7 fortified was it when it was taken in one day? It's not Vukovar, which

8 took months to be conquered. So you can see how strong it was and how

9 many weapons it had, based on this. But I apologise. This is something

10 that I just wanted to say in relation to this question.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Vidovic, does that satisfy your question

12 or would you like to put the same question again? Because was it a

13 Serbian stronghold could have more than one meaning. So if you want to

14 proceed with the question, rephrasing it, possibly, you have our

15 permission to go ahead.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to show

17 the witness a number of documents, and we will discuss it in that way. I

18 would now like to ask the usher to show the witness Defence Exhibit D5.

19 Your Honour, this is a document that is also a part of the

20 financial documentation of the Bratunac Brigade, and it's an extract from

21 the record of personnel salaries for May 1992 and it's a list of the

22 people in the Territorial Defence of Donji Magasici.

23 Q. Witness, could you please look at page 01320152.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Donji Magasici is a village from the Kravica local commune?

Page 3132

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please look at the section here referring to the type of

3 weapon, and you can see the markings there, PM. Do you agree with that?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I agree.

5 Q. Do you agree that this is a marking for a machine-gun?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. And that AP --

8 A. Is the marking for an automatic rifle.

9 Q. Do you agree that M-48 is also a mark indicating a rifle?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In relation to this, I would like to ask you the following: A

12 small place, such as Magasici Donji, had 56 pieces of different weapons,

13 including automatic weapons and machine-guns?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Other villages in the Kravica area received the same amounts of

16 weapons, didn't they?

17 A. Well, there were such villages, yes.

18 Q. The local units received substantial support from the volunteers

19 who came from Serbia and the Croatian Krajina at the beginning of the war

20 who originally hailed from the Kravica area. Was this not the case?

21 A. Yes. There were cases like that, people who worked in Serbia, and

22 when the war broke out, they came to the area.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now please be shown

24 the following document.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ms. Vidovic, if this

Page 3133

1 cross-examination is bound to continue for a long time, may we please have

2 a break, because I would like to go and use the facilities.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not sure if you've

4 taken notice. The witness needs a break, and he wants to know how much

5 longer I'll go on for. I think about 25 minutes, but it appears that he

6 needs a break now.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll certainly give the witness a short break.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you please escort the witness, and

10 we'll wait here.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, so as not to waste time, Mr. Jones,

13 you informed the Trial Chamber earlier on in the day that you had some

14 submissions to make in relation to the next witness. How long do you

15 anticipate would that take you?

16 MR. JONES: Well, I didn't plan to actually make the submissions

17 orally. We filed a motion today, I mean in the last break, and it

18 concerns an exhibit which we understand the Prosecution may intend to use

19 with the next witness. And it's our application that that should be

20 excluded. What's probably best is if I distribute courtesy copies of

21 the --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so, because we are not even aware of it.

23 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, indeed, I only filed it moments ago, and I

24 have courtesy copies available.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And which document are you referring to?

Page 3134

1 MR. JONES: It's a video which is designated as V0002554, and

2 transcripts of the video. The video has not yet been tendered.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But it has been pre-marked as P97 and P98.

4 MR. JONES: The transcript --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Siller, please follow me. According to the

6 information that I have, because I do have it here, this video has been

7 pre-marked as P97 and P98. It's V0002554.

8 Yes, Judge.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 MR. JONES: We have something else for P97. That could be an

11 error.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Because Judge Eser is pointing out that this

13 video with 0002554 is P448, which was run before, which was run before.

14 MR. JONES: A moment, please, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So we must be -- or rather, you must be talking of

16 some other video.

17 MR. JONES: Yes. It's certainly not a video which has been run

18 already.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Then it cannot be V0002554. Usher, any

20 time the witness is ready, bring him over here.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But also in the list, in the Prosecution list

24 of description of exhibits that are going to be used, P448 is described as

25 V0002554, which is definitely not the same video.

Page 3135

1 MR. JONES: P448 is I think V0002774. I think there must be an

2 error somewhere.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if I could help you. That was the

4 video that we saw earlier today.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. That's P448. That's P448, definitely.

6 MR. JONES: Exactly. And this is the one ending 2554 and as far

7 as we understand --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, if you could provide us with a

9 courtesy copy of your motion, please, so that will be prepared for the

10 discussion as soon as we finish with this witness.

11 Yes. Are you feeling okay, Mr. Eric?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: If you --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything is fine.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have any problems at any time and would like

16 a break, please let us know.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I don't think I will need

18 any further breaks. Just this one.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

22 Q. Can you just please look at this document, military post 7042

23 Bratunac, and the mark is 013210091, and the date is the 29th of

24 September, 1993. This is a record, a list of soldiers who were killed, of

25 a soldier who was killed. Can you please have a look. The name is

Page 3136

1 Miroslav Marincevic, volunteer, born 1965 in Nis. It is true, isn't it,

2 that Nis is a town in Serbia; therefore, this person does not hail from

3 the Kravica area?

4 A. This is not a person I knew. I'm not familiar with this.

5 Q. Can you look further down the page. We have the date and place of

6 death, the 17th of December, 1992, seriously wounded in Siljkovici on the

7 18th of December, he died in hospital in Belgrade. And the manner of

8 death, in combat, and then there is a remark further down the

9 page: "While carrying out combat operations, the above-named was

10 seriously wounded."

11 A. It was probably in some shooting or as part of an attack, I

12 assume, something like that.

13 Q. Therefore you agree with me, don't you --

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if I might.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

16 MS. SELLERS: I just want to say that at this point these are the

17 types of documents that we saw when Mr. Eric was called the first time.

18 I'm waiting to see how the Defence is tying this specifically back to the

19 video, and I would just like to remind the Trial Chamber we thought the

20 basis of the further cross-examination were things that specifically

21 appeared on the video and weren't known. And I would like to state that

22 for the record.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I think what you're stating for the record

24 is very relevant.

25 Madam Vidovic, yes.

Page 3137

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may reply. We did

2 not see these documents. As for the video, Mr. Rasa Milanovic, the whole

3 video, and the last time we did not get a transcript from the OTP, let me

4 put that on the record, but in the video, he speaks about precisely what

5 I'm asking the witness about now, the arrival of volunteers from Serbia

6 and the Croatian Krajina. And he says that he personally arrived from the

7 front in Croatia. Therefore, this is highly relevant. Your Honour, I

8 have the transcript here.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, Madam Vidovic. The Trial Chamber

10 doesn't really agree with you that this is highly relevant. It only says

11 where he was born. It doesn't say where he was residing before he was

12 killed in Siljkovici.

13 Let's proceed, anyway.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I move that this

15 document be assigned a number.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: This document is being tendered, admitted and marked

17 as Defence Exhibit 128.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Eric, in addition to the local units in the Kravica area, from

20 the very outset of the war in 1992, various units were also stationed,

21 units that were made up of people who were not locals or resided in the

22 area?

23 A. I don't know anything about those units.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

25 again, please, to show another document to the witness. This is a

Page 3138

1 Bratunac military post, 0132127. This is also a record sheet of a soldier

2 who was killed.

3 Q. Please, Witness, can you have a look.

4 A. There is nothing for me to look at here. It's pointless.

5 Q. Take it easy, please. The name is Ratko Visnjic, volunteer,

6 killed on the 7th of January, 1993, in Siljkovici, member of a special

7 unit of the MUP. My question --

8 A. Please, madam.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please can the witness

10 answer my question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's fine, Your Honour. I'll

12 answer the question.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you tried this already on the 26th of

14 October, and if you try to do it again now, today, here, you will incur

15 disciplinary measures on the part of the Trial Chamber. Madam Vidovic is

16 doing her duty here, and you are a witness, and you are a witness, and you

17 have to respect the Rules of this Tribunal.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's fine, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... will ask the

20 questions, to put the questions to you, and just restrict yourself to

21 answering the questions. And no comments and no gestures. Because you

22 will regret everything that you do otherwise.

23 Madam Vidovic, please go ahead.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. The Ministry of the Interior, the abbreviation is MUP, isn't it?

Page 3139

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Therefore, a police unit, a special MUP unit, this is a special

3 MUP unit of Republika Srpska, isn't it?

4 A. If you remember my last testimony --

5 Q. Can you please just say yes or no, please.

6 A. Please allow me to explain. This special unit of the MUP from

7 Bijeljina was in Kravica. It came and stayed for about 10 or 15 days

8 before Kravica burned down. This man was born in Sarajevo. What sort of

9 a volunteer is he supposed to be, where from? He can't possibly be

10 considered a volunteer. He resided in Sarajevo which is the former

11 Republic of Bosnia.

12 Q. I'll rephrase the question. Is it true, then, that this special

13 unit of the MUP of Republika Srpska was stationed in the Kravica area

14 during the events in January 1993?

15 A. There was a minor unit. I'm not sure what the name was, from

16 Bijeljina.

17 MS. SELLERS: [Previous translation continues]...

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers. One moment, because I'm sure that

19 the interpreters didn't catch what you were going to say.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I don't believe from looking back on

21 the transcript that the witness ever agreed that the MUP was from the

22 Republika Srpska.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. He's never agreed that -- in fact, he said

24 that this was a special unit in Kravica or -- he explained, but he never

25 mentioned that it was -- or agreed that it was part of the MUP of

Page 3140

1 Republika Srpska.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I have no idea what the name

3 was.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Was this a special unit of the MUP?

6 A. I really don't know. They had uniforms that looked more like

7 military uniforms to me. I really don't know who exactly they were. I

8 don't think I can answer that question. I simply don't know.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just -- well, before I ask

10 anything, can this document please be assigned a number, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. This document is being assigned

12 Defence Exhibit number D129.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

14 again, please.

15 Q. We see a document here. It's a Bratunac Brigade document. The

16 number is 01322160, dated the 2nd of January, 1993. I will quote briefly.

17 It says: "24 plus 2 plus 4 men were brought in from Serbia (with or

18 without weapons). 23 men handed over to Captain Vaso Gujic in Glogova to

19 be deployed at the positions. Soldiers who did not have any weapons

20 signed for weapons that were confiscated in Serbia. On the same day, 17

21 light-barrelled weapons were seized in Serbia. In the military police

22 depot, there are still three light machine-guns and ten light-barrelled

23 weapons, snipers."

24 In relation to that, let me ask you the following question: Is it

25 true that the position in Glogova in December 1992 and January 1993, a

Page 3141

1 position under the command of Captain Vaso Gujic was deployed?

2 A. I'm not familiar with that.

3 Q. The last time around, Mr. Eric, when we spoke on the 26th of

4 October, 2004, on page 1247, last line, and then running on to the

5 following page, lines 1, 2, and 3, I quote: "It is a duty of the medical

6 worker to be familiar with the positions of the units and personnel

7 holding those positions."

8 Therefore, you were aware of the positions held by those units.

9 It is true, isn't it, that Captain Vaso Gujic was a professional officer,

10 a Serb, originally from Central Bosnia?

11 A. I simply don't know this person. Please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One question. Did Glogova come under your area of

13 responsibility or not?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from Kravica towards Bratunac,

15 but not from the other side, from Bratunac. As far as I understand, we

16 are speaking about the direction of Bratunac. This man, Vaso Gujic, as

17 you said, if he was in Bratunac, then he was not in Kravica, not on our

18 side, because then I would know who he was. I would have seen him there

19 with the army. It was my duty to know who was around.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Let me try to rephrase the question. Mr. Eric, is it not true

22 that the positions in Jezestica are linked to the positions in Glogova?

23 A. Yes. Well, Magasici and Jezestica are nearby, so they're

24 adjacent. Jezestica and Magasici. Magasici is adjacent to Glogova,

25 actually.

Page 3142

1 Q. I'm saying, Mr. Eric, that this unit was precisely at those

2 positions which continue on from Magasici towards Glogova. Is this true?

3 A. Yes. On the side of Bratunac. That's possible, yes.

4 Q. Is it true that in the Kravica area, refugees from Zenica and

5 Srebrenica fought in that area under the command of a professional

6 officer, a Serb man who comes from Central Bosnia?

7 A. They were not refugees. They had arrived in 1992. They were

8 together with us. They lived in Bratunac. Some of them are in Bratunac

9 to this very day. They fought at our lines, and many of them were killed.

10 That's true. They were all over, but there were some also in Bratunac.

11 Yes, they were expelled from Central Bosnia, then they were refugees.

12 They'd been with us from 1992. It's been ten years now. Those who

13 remained are now people from Bratunac. They are no longer refugees.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Eric. I will just briefly ask you the following:

15 Is it true that in the Kravica area, in late December and early January

16 1993, there was also the special guards which fought in that area; they

17 were called Panthers, from Bijeljina?

18 A. Yes. They used to be there.

19 Q. My question was: Did it fight in that area in early January 1993?

20 A. Yes. I think that it did.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move to my

22 next question, I would just like to have this previous document be given

23 an exhibit number.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know about this

25 document.

Page 3143

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And that will be D1 --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And that will be document D130. I notice that the

4 transcript shows D1. It should be D130.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Eric, we are now going to show you another document. This is

7 an excerpt from a report and from notes of the Bratunac Brigade, 0132207.

8 The date is the 7th of January, 1993. Mr. Eric, can you please look at

9 this document. I will now quote from it: "On the 7th of January, 1993,

10 in the early morning hours, an attack was launched on Kravica from all

11 sides. Immediately upon being informed, the commander engaged the

12 available forces and sent them to Kravica to assist. The military police

13 dispatched 14 people, with weapons and equipment who had been in detention

14 for abandoning positions and other disciplinary offences. The list of

15 military conscripts is located in the records with the duty-officer in the

16 military police. At around 730 hours I requested information about the

17 members of the military police who are deployed in the Kravica area."

18 And then my question is in relation to this, Mr. Eric. You were

19 in Kravica at the time of the attack, weren't you? Therefore, it is true

20 that a number of different units fought there, isn't it?

21 A. Different? In what way? They all took part in the defence of the

22 village, all the units that were there. Therefore, I'm not sure what you

23 mean by saying "different."

24 Q. Did these units that we spoke about today also fight, including

25 the military police of the Bratunac Brigade?

Page 3144

1 A. I don't know. After 10.00, I received no information whatsoever.

2 I have no idea if they were there or not. It's possible, but as far as I

3 can see, based on this document, they were not there. Up to 1000 hours, I

4 had not received any information in the Kravica/Njive sector.

5 Therefore -- because the Muslim units in the area were making the fastest

6 progress. That would be an answer for you.

7 Q. Very well.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document please be assigned

9 a number?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: This document is being tendered and received as a

11 Defence exhibit, and is being marked as Defence Exhibit D131.

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, excuse me. I have no objections to the

13 document. Just we'd note that it doesn't seem to have a signature, it

14 doesn't seem to have any official indication of where it comes from,

15 although learned counsel, learned friend, has testified where she thinks

16 that this has come from. Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Point taken. Madam Vidovic, do you have any

18 further information?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I be allowed to

20 reply? My learned friend and colleague did not give her opinion on where

21 she thinks the document comes from. She appears quite certain. However,

22 this document is from a set of documents in relation to the Bratunac

23 Brigade disclosed to us by the OTP. It's part of the set that was

24 disclosed as the notes of the Bratunac Brigade, and this is merely an

25 excerpt from the following document. Therefore, Your Honours, should

Page 3145

1 there be any further objections like this to these documents, I will see

2 myself compelled to bring along documents that sometimes run into hundreds

3 of pages. The source for these documents is the OTP, including everything

4 concerning where the documents came from and how they came into the

5 possession of the OTP.

6 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. Excuse me. I do take note of

7 what Madam Vidovic is saying, learned counsel, I'm just merely noting that

8 this specific document, not the collection it's come from, but that

9 there's no indication on the handwritten document as to who wrote it or

10 any official seal. I'm quite aware that the Bratunac collection has

11 provided Defence with many of the documents that they're using. That is

12 certainly not our objection. Our objection has to deal more specifically

13 with the contents, but also the specific document in its identification as

14 to who wrote it. Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make it clear, because the first thing that

16 Ms. Sellers had said when she rose to raise an objection was precisely

17 that she was not objecting to the document itself. And you're taking it

18 that she was objecting to the document itself. I think we will need to

19 take objections as and if and when they arise and take it up from there.

20 On the other hand, I also wish to make it clear that the fact that a

21 document has been in the possession of the Prosecution and then in

22 addition has been forwarded to the Defence, does not prevent the

23 Prosecution from contesting the admissibility of the document. So at the

24 end of the day, there is no reason why we should create an incident out of

25 this. And let's move forward.

Page 3146

1 Next question, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, does this mean that

3 this document will not be assigned a number? I'm not sure I understand

4 this.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I have already -- I have already assigned a number

6 to it. I said it is D131.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

8 I didn't hear that.

9 Q. Mr. Eric, I will just ask you a couple of questions. Today you

10 were asked about the contacts between Kravica and the Milici Brigade. Is

11 it true that in Milici that the Milici Brigade, the Milici Light Brigade

12 was in fact based in Milici?

13 A. I don't know exactly, but it must have been. I never went to that

14 brigade, but I can't think where else it could have been.

15 Q. It is also true, Mr. Eric, that the main depot, warehouse, for the

16 ammunition and weapons used for the entire Birca area was located there,

17 wasn't it?

18 A. Not that I'm aware of.

19 Q. Is it not true that on the 7th of January, 1993, 49 fighters were

20 killed in the Kravica area who were from Kravica and 38 of them were

21 wounded?

22 A. Unfortunately, I don't have accurate information on this. I do,

23 however, believe that what you say is correct. It certainly sounds

24 accurate.

25 Q. It is true, Mr. Eric, isn't it, that in the videotape you said

Page 3147

1 that 38 people had been wounded?

2 A. I can't be positive about that. Maybe 37 or perhaps more. But

3 the number is -- the figure is certainly a relevant one, generally

4 speaking. Am I making myself clear?

5 Q. Yes. Thank you. I'll just ask you one more question. On the

6 tape, you mentioned that you had expected a helicopter to arrive.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who promised that to you? Who promised to send over the

9 helicopter?

10 A. If you remember my previous testimony, I said that once or twice

11 in the course of that day, I nipped over to the command that was at the

12 school building and one of the people who were there told me. Who

13 specifically it was, I really have no idea. It was a long time ago. I

14 really can't say who specifically. Someone over there said to me

15 something like: Just take it easy. A helicopter has been promised to be

16 sent over and evacuate the wounded. And Mile would be sending APCs.

17 That's what I was told.

18 Q. Therefore, someone who was a member of the command staff at the

19 school building in Kravica promised you this?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where did you get your logistics from for your own duties,

22 Mr. Eric?

23 A. For my duties, you mean the medical staff? At the beginning of

24 the war, we had our own reserves at the hospital. And then if you

25 remember from the transcript the last time around, a van full of medicine

Page 3148

1 was sent over from Holland and then we were using that for a while, and

2 later we relied on the Bratunac Brigade.

3 Q. Can I ask you about the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993?

4 Where were you getting your logistics from, as a medical worker?

5 A. Mostly from Bratunac.

6 Q. The Bratunac Brigade?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

9 I have no further questions.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be allowed.

11 May I just say a couple of words in relation to my previous testimony? I

12 would just like to show you a couple of statements that I made to

13 newspapers, statements that were used by the Defence, statements I made to

14 a variety of daily papers in Bosnia and Republika Srpska.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, the

17 witness said that the Defence had used something. This Defence never in

18 any way talked to anyone outside this courtroom about this specific

19 witness or this trial. Therefore, I think it is impermissible for the

20 witness to be making a statement like this.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I have proof. Madam Vidovic, is

22 this you --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Eric --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- here in the photograph?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You do not address Madam Vidovic directly. I

Page 3149

1 prohibit you from addressing Madam Vidovic directly, unless you are

2 authorised by the Trial Chamber.

3 So what articles or documents do you want to show the Trial

4 Chamber? Let's see what they are.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you remember the

6 last time I testified, the Defence asked me: Mr. Eric, is it not true

7 that your two grandfathers, Negoslav [phoen] and Golub, for the crimes

8 they committed against the Muslim people, were convicted to long terms of

9 imprisonment? If you remember, my reply to the Defence at the time was as

10 follows: They were not sentenced to long terms of imprisonment, but

11 rather, they were sentenced to be shot, and they had served their

12 long-term prison sentences already.

13 And then there is an article in a newspaper called Dnevni Avaz. I

14 find this article which reads: "Witness Slavisa Eric confirms the crimes

15 of his grandfather, Golub." What exactly is this supposed to mean? I

16 should like to ask the Defence. What was the meaning behind this

17 newspaper article, and what was I supposed to answer in reply to their

18 question? If I had sworn here to tell the truth, and the truth is that my

19 grandfathers were sentenced to a death by firing squad. And the link

20 between myself and my grandfathers is the same that the link is going to

21 be one day between my children and my present testimony. I don't think

22 this was a fair move. Both myself and my family were damaged by this. It

23 would not surprise me at all if suddenly one day I turned up on the front

24 page of this newspaper called Dnevni Avaz. It would not surprise me in

25 the least, Your Honour.

Page 3150

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Yes. The witness's testimony was given in public

3 session. If a newspaper decides to report, either accurately or

4 inaccurately, on the testimony which was given, that's got absolutely

5 nothing to do with the Defence. The question was properly put, it was put

6 in the context of there being very old fighters in Kravica, which, as you

7 know has been an issue in this trial as to whether certain people are

8 combatants or not, and it's obviously entirely improper for a witness to

9 come here and to wave newspaper articles around and seek to accuse the

10 Defence on that basis. So I strongly object to the witness being heard

11 any! More.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Does anyone know who Mr. A. Hadzic is? Do you know

13 who Mr. Hadzic is? Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a lady

15 journalist of the Avaz newspaper. However, Your Honour, I must say that I

16 never made any public statements disclosing any details of this trial to

17 anyone at any time, and I don't think, frankly, that that is what this

18 newspaper article reflects, in addition to which, I know that quite many

19 journalists from Bosnia-Herzegovina are following this trial, and some may

20 even be sitting behind the screen now.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is this newspaper published?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Sarajevo.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Naturally, there is very little we can

24 say at this point in time, because this is in your own language, which we

25 don't understand. We'll give instructions to have it translated, at least

Page 3151

1 for our information, and we'll come back to the Trial Chamber -- or the

2 Trial Chamber will come back on this if it is at all necessary.

3 Otherwise, we will just put it on record and that will be the end of it.

4 Mr. Eric -- Madam Sellers, are there any further questions on the

5 part of the Prosecution?

6 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. We'll have no re-examination at

7 this point. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Judge Eser -- Judge Brydensholt.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Well, I understood that on the day of the 7th

11 of January you were in contact with commandants of the units which were

12 placed in the school, in the headquarter there. You had some connection

13 with them. Were you aware if there in the same school building was a

14 deposit of arms? You were very close to them. What kind of a deposit, if

15 any, was there?

16 A. There was ammunition stored there, but it was not really a depot.

17 It wasn't far from the medical centre. The distance was perhaps 200 or

18 300 metres. So I would just walk over or run across between the houses to

19 see what was going on, because I didn't know. I worked inside a room. So

20 that's when they told me. But it was not really an ammunition depot in

21 the proper sense of the word, containing explosives and mines. If that

22 had been the case, when there was an explosion, when the school building

23 caught fire, the whole thing would have gone up in smoke. It wouldn't

24 have just remained standing. It would have exploded, the whole thing.

25 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: One more question. Were you aware that a tank

Page 3152

1 was placed in the school yard?

2 A. No. No. No, there was no tank. I don't think we even had a

3 tank. It was an APC, an old one. I don't think it was a tank. An APC or

4 something along these lines, and it stayed right there.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: This APC, did it have a gun mounted?

6 A. A Browing 12.7 millimetres. It's a heavy machine-gun.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Judge Eser.

8 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Eric, you have been asked for the military unit,

9 and you have been asked what it was. Am I remembering correctly that you

10 told us you didn't know what it was, what the militia brigade meant? You

11 have been asked for the nature of this Brigade in Milici, and to my

12 recollection, you answered you did not know the nature of this unit or

13 brigade or whatever you may call it. Is that correct?

14 A. The brigade. Well, the brigade was in Bratunac. My apologies.

15 We were more some sort of a battalion at that time, around Christmas-time,

16 between 300 and 400 people. It's a battalion, establishment-wise.

17 Bratunac had a brigade which was made up of Kravica, then the area closer

18 to Srebrenica. And then on the other side, two, three, or four

19 battalions. I think that's how many it had. This was a battalion-strong

20 unit, in fact. At the outset, it was some sort of Territorial Defence

21 detachment. I'm not even sure what to call it or what it was. I don't

22 think anyone knows. And then as people were being killed and as people

23 were leaving, the unit grew smaller and became some sort of a battalion.

24 JUDGE ESER: And a little earlier you had been asked by -- I think

25 by the Defence with regard to reinforcements coming from Milici. And you

Page 3153

1 answered that this reinforcement did not come, but it was expected. Now,

2 what did you expect from them? What type of help did you expect from

3 them?

4 A. Well, to break through to where we were and to help us defend

5 ourselves, to link up with us across Kostan to reach Kravica. But they

6 were ambushed at Siljkovici and they were prevented from reaching us.

7 JUDGE ESER: Okay. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser.

9 Mr. Eric, that brings your testimony to an end. You will be

10 escorted out of the courtroom by Madam Usher. Once more, I should like to

11 thank you on behalf of the Trial Chamber, on behalf of Judge Brydensholt,

12 Judge Eser and myself, also on behalf of the Tribunal, for having accepted

13 to return to this Tribunal to continue or to resume and finish your

14 evidence after the discovery of the video that was mentioned earlier. I

15 would also like to wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

17 Thank you. And please bear me no grudges. I have never faced any kind of

18 Tribunal before. I have no record whatsoever, not even for a traffic

19 offence. Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, the courtesy copy.

21 MR. JONES: Yes. I have them here. While I remember, Your

22 Honour, might we have a copy at some stage of that newspaper article as

23 well.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. Registrar, please, make a photo --

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 3154

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Copies for the Prosecution, for the Defence, and for

2 us, but we need the translation more than -- yes.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will have a 25-minute break starting from

5 now. Please be prepared to discuss the merit of this urgent motion, first

6 and foremost, before we admit the next witness. Thank you.

7 MR. JONES: Yes. And you'll see there's a correction in the first

8 paragraph, line 6. I've done that by hand.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.


13 MR. JONES: Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I saw Ms. Richardson. For the

15 record, Ms. Richardson has joined the Prosecution team. Yes. There is

16 this urgent motion that the Defence has filed. I would imagine that you

17 may have something to say about it, Mr. Jones.

18 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. First, just to say that

19 we've clarified, I think, the question of exhibit numbers. Our

20 understanding was that the transcript alone was P98 and that the video

21 hadn't been tendered. In fact, I think it's right to say that P98 is the

22 video and the transcript. Either way, we objected to it when it was

23 tendered. So it makes ill difference, but that's one correction which

24 should be entered.

25 As far as the motion is concerned, I trust that it's largely

Page 3155

1 self-explanatory. And it may be that the Prosecution may want to give a

2 considered written response. I'm not sure entirely how we'll proceed from

3 here. But for our part, when we were notified that the Prosecution

4 intended to use this exhibit, given that we had objected to its admission

5 into evidence on the 8th of October, 2004, we considered it appropriate to

6 file a motion immediately to set out on the record what our objections

7 are. The factual reasons are set out in part 3 of the motion of which you

8 have courtesy copies, and I won't rehearse that here because it's set out,

9 numbers 1 to 7, small Roman numerals 1 to 7.

10 We don't know which part of the video, of course, the Prosecution

11 intends to show to this witness and for what purpose. Indeed, it was even

12 indicated to us that the Prosecution might not necessarily use this

13 exhibit at all. It's a potential exhibit. So of course if the

14 Prosecution have since decided not to use this exhibit with this next

15 witness, then the matter again would not need to be dealt with

16 immediately.

17 We were taken somewhat by surprise that this exhibit would be used

18 with the next witness, Slavoljub Zikic - who is not a protected witness; I

19 can mention his name - because he's not actually shown in the video at

20 all, unlike the witness who comes after him, Mr. Radic, who is purported,

21 at least, in the video.

22 Now, it may be that the Prosecution want to use the video for

23 identification purposes. Again, I don't know and I don't wish to

24 speculate. But in that case, there would be no cause certainly for the

25 transcript to be used or to be admitted -- not to be used for that witness

Page 3156

1 or for the tape to be played. It's just simply a question of stopping it

2 at a certain point for identification purposes. But nonetheless, we say

3 that because of the features set out in 1 to 7, the tape should be

4 excluded for all purposes, and that is, firstly, the prejudicial effect,

5 we say, outweighs the probative value of the videotape and therefore

6 should be excluded under 89(D). It's a strange interview with prompts and

7 edits and other features which cast doubt on the -- both the authenticity

8 and the reliability of the video.

9 Secondly, under Rule 95, it may be that these interviews were

10 obtained by oppression. And in that context, we would ask what are these

11 people doing interviewing people who were visibly tired, in some cases

12 injured, interviewing them without, it appears, the proper safeguards

13 which would be normally adopted in such a situation? In the law of the

14 former Yugoslavia, there were circumstances under which a person who may

15 be tired and need medical treatment could be interviewed, but there are,

16 of course, all sorts of safeguards to ensure that that's being properly

17 done and that the whole interview isn't tainted by the condition that the

18 person is in when being interviewed.

19 So we say there are indices of oppression, and therefore we're in

20 Rule 95 territory, and that therefore the video should be excluded unless

21 the Prosecution satisfy you beyond a reasonable doubt, in accordance with

22 your order, that the interviews were not obtained by oppression. And

23 again, that might be going further ahead than we need to now because it

24 depends a lot on what purpose the Prosecution want to use the video for.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is going to respond to that? Ms. Richardson,

Page 3157

1 yes.

2 MS. SELLERS: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

3 Your Honour, I will provide an oral response to this motion that

4 was just filed by Defence counsel. I would like to add for the record

5 that the Prosecution will reserve its rights to respond in writing, as we

6 were just given this a few minutes ago. And I would certainly like to

7 suggest, or request, that in the future, counsel would give us this -- any

8 motions that they have in the morning hours, and we may very well be able

9 to provide a response to it. But under the circumstances in the 25

10 minutes I will provide an oral response, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's be practical about it, Ms. Richardson. Could

12 you for the time being restrict your oral response to what is relevant for

13 the purpose of this particular witness, and then you will have every

14 opportunity to respond in writing with regard to the rest of the

15 submissions that are being put forward by the Defence.

16 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour. The first point I would

17 like to make with respect to whether or not this -- the purpose for which

18 this video will be used. The next witness, Mr. Zikic, will be testifying

19 about his experiences in the police station and with respect to the other

20 individuals he was kept captive. He -- the video will be used for

21 purposes of identification, as well as verification of the injuries.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Verification of whom?

23 MS. SELLERS: Of the other prisoners, Your Honour. In fact, he

24 is not on the video himself, but the purpose of showing him the video will

25 be for him to identify his fellow prisoners, as well as the injuries that

Page 3158

1 they received at the time of the exchange, which there is a date on the

2 video itself.

3 The next witness that the Prosecution will present is Mr. Radic,

4 who --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget Mr. Radic. That you may include when you

6 file your written response.

7 MS. SELLERS: Fine.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Just restrict yourself to Zikic.

9 MS. SELLERS: Fine, Your Honour. Thank you. Certainly with

10 respect to the probative value of this videotape, I don't think -- it

11 would be very difficult for one to imagine any other evidence of more

12 probative value as the next individual will be testifying to the injuries

13 that he observed, that he himself had, as well as what he observed his

14 fellow prisoners to have. And it goes directly -- it certainly is

15 relevant and probative. It goes directly to the beatings as alleged and

16 the cruelty as alleged in the Prosecution's indictment. The reliability

17 of it, Your Honour, can be tested through examination, as well as by

18 cross-examination as well, the authenticity of it, Your Honour, can also

19 be verified by the witnesses themselves, who -- the one tomorrow, Your

20 Honour, was present when in fact it was taken.

21 So I would have to say that any arguments with respect to

22 oppressiveness and the conditions under which they were taken is pure

23 speculation at this point by the Defence. In fact, one would argue that

24 the time to take the video was immediately after these individuals were

25 released from prison to document their injuries, and to get their evidence

Page 3159

1 as to what happened to them. So I think the timeliness of it adds to its

2 probative, relevant and reliability.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you finished?

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, my last point with respect to the

5 translation, the Prosecution concedes that in fact the translation of the

6 tape, we do need to have another translation conducted because it is --

7 there are some mistakes that we have found, but nonetheless, with respect

8 to the witness and their testimony, the visibility of what is being shown

9 to them, they can certainly verify and attest to and corroborate.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not satisfied, Mr. Jones.

12 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought so.

14 MR. JONES: I'll ask for a ruling from the Chamber.

15 Just two points in reply. We don't accept it's the date which is

16 shown on the video, at least that that's conclusive of when it was filmed.

17 This next witness wasn't present when the interviews were conducted, so

18 he can't help us with that. Conversely, he can describe the injuries

19 which he saw on other prisoners and then that can be compared by Your

20 Honours with what one sees on the video. But finally, if Your Honours are

21 minded to rule against me and to allow the video to be shown for

22 identification purposes alone, then I would simply repeat my submission

23 that that doesn't require the transcript and the video can simply be

24 frozen. It doesn't need to be played at any length.

25 I'm obliged. Thank you.

Page 3160

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So our position is as follows: What we are going to

3 decide today only refers to the use of this videotape with the witness

4 Mr. Zikic, Slavoljub Zikic. The Chamber, of course, reserves its position

5 with regard to the use of this tape with other witnesses until after it

6 has been served with a copy of your written response.

7 With regard to the use of this tape for the purpose of the

8 testimony of Mr. Zikic, we have heard what -- we have taken into

9 consideration the points raised by the Defence in their motion, of which

10 the Trial Chamber had a courtesy copy and for which we thank the Defence.

11 We have also taken note your response so far as it is limited to this

12 particular witness. We are going to admit the use of this video recording

13 for the purpose of the testimony which is about to start, with, of course,

14 the caveat that the points raised by the Defence, as they may or may not

15 relate to the probative value and authenticity of this document will be

16 taken into consideration in due course when we come to evaluate the

17 totality of the evidence that would have been furnished to this Trial

18 Chamber in the course of this trial.

19 So our decision is that you may make use of this video and we will

20 have also a final say on the merit once we have taken cognizance of all

21 the other points that you would like to raise in your written response.

22 So any further matters before we admit the witness? Usher, could

23 you please bring in the witness.

24 To your knowledge, Ms. Richardson, does this witness have any

25 problems with eyesight, hearing?

Page 3161

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, with respect to this witness,

2 Mr. Zikic does have a hearing problem. We may need to increase the volume

3 on his headset.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not a problem.

5 MS. SELLERS: With respect to his eyesight, he does wear glasses,

6 and I'm told that they are not -- it hasn't been updated recently. So

7 they are of poor quality. But I don't think it will be a problem if the

8 Court gives him considerable time to study any documents beforehand.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And he is literate?

10 MS. SELLERS: And he is literate, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Zikic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, gentlemen, Your

15 Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Before I proceed any further, since I am speaking in

19 English, I want to make sure that you are receiving interpretation of what

20 I am saying in your own language, in a language, in other words, that you

21 can understand.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So far, so good.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zikic. You are about to start

24 giving evidence as a witness brought forward by the Prosecution in this

25 case that has been instituted against Naser Oric. Our Rules require that

Page 3162

1 before you start giving evidence, you make a solemn declaration,

2 equivalent to an oath, to the effect that in the course of your testimony

3 you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

4 truth. To help you make this declaration, the young lady who is standing

5 next to you is going to hand to you the text of the solemn declaration,

6 and I kindly ask you to read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

7 declaration and your solemn undertaking with this Tribunal.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I read it now?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zikic. You may sit down and make

15 yourself comfortable.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, today you are going to be here only for a few

18 minutes, roughly about 20 minutes, and then we will continue and hopefully

19 finish tomorrow. The procedure to be followed is a very simple one. You

20 are first going to be asked a series of questions by Ms. Richardson, who I

21 suppose you have already met. Then Ms. Richardson will be followed by

22 Mr. Jones, who is one of the lawyers appearing for Naser Oric. You have a

23 responsibility, an obligation, to answer all the questions that are put to

24 you, as fully and as truthfully as possible, regardless of who is putting

25 the question. In other words, you do not make a distinction between

Page 3163

1 questions that are put to you by the Prosecution and questions that are

2 put to you by the Defence. Your duty, your responsibility, is to always

3 give a truthful and full answer.

4 Did I make myself clear to you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Also, if at any time, because today I said you will

7 be here for a few minutes. Tomorrow you will be here for hours. If at

8 any time you need a break, you feel tired, please do draw our attention.

9 We are the three Judges on this case. Judge Brydensholt from Denmark is

10 to my right, Judge Albin Eser from Germany is at my left, and my name is

11 Judge Agius and I come from Malta. We'll try to make your stay here in

12 The Hague as comfortable as possible; at the same time, you try to answer

13 all the questions that are put to you in the way that I have indicated to

14 you so that you can get out of here as quickly as possible. Thank you.

15 Ms. Richardson, you can lead the witness so far as the preliminary

16 issues are concerned.

17 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Examined by MS. SELLERS:

19 Q. Mr. Zikic, please state your full name for the record.

20 A. Slavoljub Zikic, son of Milovan.

21 Q. And you are also known by the name Drago as well?

22 A. Yes, that's my nickname.

23 Q. Can you please confirm for the Trial Chamber the following

24 information: You were born in 1935, you're married, and you have two

25 children, and you are a Serb?

Page 3164

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You are the former manager of the Fakovici post office and --

3 until 1992, and you also had land upon which you planted crop, and you

4 owned livestock?

5 A. Yes. I was not the director, though. I was the manager or

6 administrator.

7 Q. Thank you. And are you presently retired from the post office?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you live in Fakovici?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In 1992, you lived in Fakovici with your wife, Milenka and your

12 children?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did your children reside in Fakovici or were they residing in

15 Serbia?

16 A. In Serbia.

17 Q. Could you tell us how many houses are located in the village of

18 Fakovici?

19 A. Well, I didn't know that such questions would be asked. I could

20 have prepared for that. But I think it was between 30 and 40 houses in

21 all.

22 Q. And is this a purely Serb village, at least in 1992?

23 A. A purely Serb village before and after.

24 Q. Could you tell us what types of buildings were located in the

25 village of Fakovici in 1992. Did you have a school, a police station, a

Page 3165

1 farming cooperative, and other types of public buildings?

2 A. We had two elementary schools, one communal hall, a health centre,

3 one post office.

4 Q. Did you have a police station?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, the surrounding villages, are they Serb? Surrounding

7 villages of Fakovici, are they Serb villages or are they Muslim villages?

8 A. This is a little hard to explain. I can go one by one, if you

9 allow me, just to mention some villages which are in the territory of that

10 local commune, my local commune of Fakovici.

11 Q. Yes. Please go ahead.

12 A. I will start along the Drina River, the settlements along the

13 Drina. Tuk, Grabovica, Vranesevici, Popovici, Vesici, Fakovici, which is

14 where I come from, followed by a Muslim settlement one kilometre from

15 Fakovici, called Zanjevo. Then Serb villages continue on, Divovici,

16 Radijevici, Boljevici, Kutijesi.

17 Then in the Brdo area, there were some Muslim settlements, Koseva

18 [phoen], Jagodnja, Poznanovici. The other villages then belong to the

19 municipality of Srebrenica.

20 Q. Fine. Thank you. Now, with respect to the Muslim villages, how

21 far away from Fakovici is the closest Muslim village, and could you give

22 us the name of that village?

23 A. The closest Muslim village along the Drina to Fakovici is

24 Zanjevo.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Zikic --

Page 3166

1 A. Yes, go ahead.

2 Q. Yes. Do you want to change your answer or do you want to add

3 something in addition to Zanjevo?

4 A. The only village next to the Drina is Zanjevo, called Abdulici. It

5 actually has two names.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, if -- I would like to take you back to 1992 or

7 prior to 1992. Did you have good relations with your Muslim neighbours,

8 the Muslims that lived in the neighbouring villages?

9 A. I have land left to me by my father in the village of Zanjevo

10 itself and I would go there to do some farming work. The neighbours from

11 Zanjevo would say: This is not for you. You're a manager. You don't

12 know how to do it.

13 Then they would come to my aid, they would help me, and I would

14 just sit there and smoke.

15 Q. And so you didn't have any problems with your Muslim neighbours?

16 A. None whatsoever. I never had any problems with them in my life.

17 Q. Now, in 1992, did there come a time that there was some tension

18 with your Muslim neighbours, and do you remember when this began?

19 A. I really didn't pay attention to that, but I think in 1991, when

20 everything started in Croatia, I think that both the Serbs and the Muslims

21 secretly received the odd rifle in order to carry out village guard duty.

22 In the course of the night, we were close by and what is more, we talked.

23 And during the night, we could shout to each other, because we were close.

24 And then during the day we would be together as if we hadn't been on guard

25 duty, either of us, the night before.

Page 3167

1 Q. All right. You mentioned guard duty. Did there come a time that

2 your village established what is called a village guard?

3 A. Yes. That is what this guard duty was called, by either side,

4 village guard duty. For example, in Fakovici, at the entrance to

5 Fakovici, two people would be on duty with one rifle; on the way out also,

6 there would be two people with one rifle. Then every two or three hours,

7 there would be a change of shift in the course of the day, and so on.

8 Q. When was this village guard established? When was it formed? Do

9 you remember? Was it 1992?

10 A. In 1991, probably in September or October.

11 Q. And who were the people in this village guard?

12 A. Local people, on both sides.

13 Q. And when you say "people," were they men or women?

14 A. There were just men. There was no need for women to go. It was

15 only during the Partizan era that women took up rifles. But there was no

16 need for that now.

17 Q. And in 1992, did this village guard still exist?

18 A. Yes. At the same house on the way out of Fakovici, along the

19 Drina River, towards Zanjevo, there was a reinforced guard duty in a

20 two-storey house there.

21 Q. All right. Could you tell us how many men were part of this

22 village guard?

23 A. Probably it was about 10 or 20 people, according to need, and they

24 changed shifts.

25 Q. And what did they guard?

Page 3168

1 A. There was some tension that had cropped up. Nothing in particular

2 was being guarded. It was just in order to secure ourselves against

3 something, but we had no idea what that would be and we were not

4 expecting, or we didn't know what to expect.

5 Q. Do you remember the ages of the men in the village guard?

6 A. Well, it was from the age of 20 up to the age of 50 or 55. They

7 did not give weapons to people who were older than 55, at least the Serbs

8 didn't.

9 Q. And were you also a member in 1992 of the village guard?

10 A. No. I was working in the post office. They wanted to spare me

11 from night shifts, because the post office was working every day.

12 Q. All right. Did the village guard, to your knowledge, receive any

13 training from the Serb army or the military?

14 A. No. Nobody came, or no training was provided.

15 Q. Did the village guard have weapons?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What kind of weapons?

18 A. M-48s, PAPs, and a three-barrel automatic rifle.

19 Q. Did the village guard also have a truck with a gun that was

20 mounted on it? Do you recall?

21 A. Yes. This three-barrel machine-gun that I mentioned, actually, it

22 was mounted on a truck.

23 Q. And what was this gun on the truck used for?

24 A. So that we could feel more free during the night, when it got

25 dark. We had tracer rounds which we used for it. And because Fakovici --

Page 3169

1 below Fakovici there was the Drina, and above Fakovici there were slopes

2 with woods. We had a few of these bullets, and then we would fire into

3 the air, just to warn that somebody was down there with weapons. This was

4 just for our own feeling of safety.

5 Q. And who were you warning? Who was the village guard trying to

6 warn?

7 A. You know, I mentioned earlier that from 1991, Muslims had their

8 own guards and we had our own. So we were defending or guarding from

9 Muslim forces, or, as they're called now, Bosniak forces.

10 Q. Did the village guard have uniforms?

11 A. There were no uniforms at that time. They were issued perhaps

12 later, in July or August. We got some more weapons then, a few military

13 blankets, some uniforms. I really wouldn't know. Some were olive-drab

14 colour. The others were just ordinary uniforms of the JNA from the old

15 Yugoslavia. These were all mixed, and it was -- and they were kept in a

16 warehouse. And anybody could help themselves to the clothing, to the

17 uniforms and the blankets without any special permission. As I said, we

18 did not dare sleep in the houses, so people would take more blankets so

19 that they could sleep in garages or barns and so on. Nobody dared spend

20 the nights in their own house.

21 Q. You mentioned that --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

24 Q. You mentioned that the village guard had weapons, and could you

25 tell the Trial Chamber how the village guard acquired these weapons.

Page 3170

1 Where did they come from, if you know?

2 A. I really couldn't say. I was the manager of the post office, so I

3 didn't go to see them. Perhaps -- and there were stories to that effect,

4 but I don't know whether it's true or not, that they were from Bijeljina,

5 they came from Bijeljina.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zikic.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think this would be a good time to

8 conclude today's session.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We think so, too so we'll adjourn for the day and

12 we'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

13 Mr. Zikic, we have to stop here because our time limit has just

14 expired. We will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. In the meantime,

15 you're going to be looked after, attended to, and rest as much as you can

16 so that tomorrow morning you will be fresh to resume your testimony.

17 Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One other thing before you leave. It's very

20 important that between today and tomorrow you do not communicate with

21 anyone on the merits of the events that you are testifying upon, neither

22 in person, nor by phone.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, but I don't have

24 anyone to communicate with anyway.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's even better. Thank you.

Page 3171

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

3 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.