Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3815

1 Wednesday, 19 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Registrar, good morning to you. Could you

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in

11 your own language?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

13 distinguished gentlemen, yes, I can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You say sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour. My name is Jan Wubben,

17 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio,

18 co-counsel, and Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink, our case manager. And good

19 morning to the Defence team as well.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you and thank you.

21 Appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I am

23 Vasvija Vidovic, together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser

24 Oric. With us today we have our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, as

25 well as our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 3816

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good morning to you

2 your team.

3 Before I ask for preliminaries, we promised you yesterday that we

4 would come forward with an oral decision on your oral motion asking for

5 authorisation to reply to the Prosecution response to your motion relating

6 to Rule 68 disclosure and so on. Our decision is in favour of your oral

7 motion, so you can proceed with filing a reply.

8 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Any preliminaries, Mr. Wubben?

11 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Any preliminaries on the Defence side? None.

13 Let's bring the witness in, please. Thank you.

14 So how long do you propose to have this witness testify?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think she'll go for a

16 substantial part of this morning in examination-in-chief. I've got a bit

17 of a video that I want to show to her.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think you will finish with her this morning?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: That's certainly my plan, yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And with regard to the Defence?

21 MR. JONES: I think it will be two hours maximum.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So we won't finish with her today. No, definitely

23 not.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam.

Page 3817

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

2 morning to everyone else.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And calm down. You don't need to feel nervous or

4 excited. You are here to give evidence in this case, and I will be

5 explaining to you very soon what the procedure is. In the meantime, as

6 the Presiding Judge it's my duty to inform you that before you proceed

7 with your testimony our rules require that you make a solemn declaration,

8 a declaration equivalent to an oath. A solemn declaration in the sense

9 that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth, the

10 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of this solemn

11 declaration is going to be handed to you now by Madam Usher. Could you

12 kindly please read that solemn declaration aloud and that will be your

13 solemn undertaking with us.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please sit down. And I take it that you are

17 receiving interpretation in your own language, because obviously I'm

18 speaking in English and most of us will be speaking in English here, and I

19 want to make sure that everything is being translated to you. All right?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. As I tried to explain to you earlier,

22 you're here to give evidence. And the way it works here is very much like

23 it works in your own country and in most other countries. The party that

24 has produced you as a witness will go first, and that will be the

25 Prosecution in this case. Mr. Di Fazio, I take it, will be putting a

Page 3818

1 series of questions to you. And then when he's finished he is going to be

2 asked -- you are going to be asked a number of questions by a member of

3 the Defence team of Mr. Naser Oric, who is the accused in this case. The

4 gentleman you see in the front row here, Mr. Jones, will be the lawyer who

5 will be asking you questions.

6 Your responsibility's a very simple one. You're not here as a

7 witness of the Prosecution; you are a witness of the Tribunal now. So

8 your duty, according to your oath, to your solemn declaration, is to

9 answer all questions truthfully and fully, which I am sure you will do.

10 If you -- at any time you feel tired or if you want a break, just let me

11 know and we'll give you a break. Please try to relax. This is a very

12 simple procedure. You will not have any problems here.

13 Just for your information, my name is Carmel Agius and I come from

14 the island of Malta. To my right is Judge Brydensholt, who comes from

15 Denmark, and to my left is Judge Albin Eser, who comes from Germany.

16 Do you have any questions?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Di Fazio will go first.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

22 Q. Just tell me if these personal details that I read out to you are

23 correct. You can just answer with a yes or no. Indeed with all of the

24 questions I put to you this morning, if you can answer with a yes or no,

25 that's fine. If I need more information, I'll ask for it.

Page 3819

1 You were born on the 1st of May, 1968, born in a place called

2 Azlica. You're married to a man named Slavoljub Filipovic. You have a

3 daughter named Olivera who was born in September of 1989 and a son named

4 Nemanja who was born in June 1992. Are those details correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In December of 1992 you lived in a small village called Bjelovac,

7 reasonably close to Srebrenica, and you lived there in a house with your

8 mother-in-law Dostana Filipovic, your father-in-law Dragoljub Filipovic,

9 and your brother-in-law Dragan Filipovic. Are those details correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In 1992, up until about April of 1992, both you and your husband

12 worked in mines in a place called Sase, which is again not too far from

13 Bjelovac and not too far from Srebrenica. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I want you to direct your mind now to events that occurred in

16 December of 1992.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 14th of December, that's

19 three days prior to the 14th of December, it was a Friday, and the next

20 Monday was the 14th of December. I came to Bjelovac with my children to

21 visit my husband and his parents. I had not been to Bjelovac since April.

22 In the early morning hours on the 14th of December, an attack occurred.

23 There was shooting. I knew instantly that this was an attack. The rest

24 of them --


Page 3820

1 Q. I'll get some details that I need. Before we get into the attack

2 itself, I want to ask you something else. Were there any VRS troops

3 stationed in Bjelovac on or about the 14th of December, 1992?

4 A. Just locals, people who lived in the village. I don't know about

5 any soldiers.

6 Q. Was there a village guard operating in Bjelovac?

7 A. Yes, yes. Those people, too, were locals.

8 Q. From time to time when you visited -- came back to your home in

9 Bjelovac throughout 1992, did you see what activities they were up to?

10 A. No. I would only stay briefly whenever I came. I would pick up

11 things for my daughter and for myself. I didn't linger on because there

12 was always at least random shooting going on, therefore I would never stay

13 long.

14 Q. Was your husband, Slavoljub, and your brother-in-law, Dragan, were

15 they members of the village guard?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Did they have guns or weapons which they used when carrying out --

18 which they used when carrying out their job as a village guard?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did they take up guarding positions around the village?

21 A. They probably did. Those were village guards after all.

22 Q. When you came back on your visits to Bjelovac, did you see --

23 would your brother-in-law and your husband leave from time to time to go

24 and carry out guarding duties?

25 A. No. My husband was at home most of the time and my

Page 3821

1 brother-in-law, too.

2 Q. Do you where your husband and brother-in-law, or indeed any of the

3 other members of the village guard, got their guns from?

4 A. I think from Bratunac, probably the Territorial Defence. Bratunac

5 probably.

6 Q. Do you recall specifically where your husband got his weapon from,

7 or is it just that you think they came from the Bratunac Territorial

8 Defence?

9 A. He told me on one occasion when I came over that everyone in the

10 village had them from the Territorial Defence in Bratunac.

11 Q. Did they have other things such as radios or walkie-talkies?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Uniforms or helmets?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ever see the village guard training?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. Now I want you to turn to the events of the actual

18 attack itself; you started to describe them. It occurred on the 14th of

19 December, 1992. About what time did it start?

20 A. Well, it started early in the morning. It was still dark. It

21 could have been any time between 4.30 and 6.00 in the morning. It was

22 still dark.

23 Q. And who was in your house at the time the attack started? What

24 persons were inside your house?

25 A. Myself, my children, my husband, my father-in-law, and my

Page 3822

1 mother-in-law. My brother-in-law stood guard that particular night.

2 Q. When the attack started, what did you do?

3 A. I got up. I got the children ready. I woke them up and packed

4 their things up. The next morning I was supposed to go back to Serbia,

5 which is where I lived, near Bovija [phoen], but I could no longer leave

6 the house.

7 Q. What did your husband do?

8 A. He left the house to see what was going on, but he never came

9 back.

10 Q. Was he armed when he left the house?

11 A. I don't remember. He probably took the rifle, but I can't

12 remember. I only looked after the children, but I assume he would have

13 taken the rifle, too.

14 Q. All right. And what about the your father-in-law, did he leave

15 the house? And also can you tell us if he was armed or not when he left

16 the house?

17 A. Yes, he left the house. He had been in another room, so he left.

18 He was gone after that. Probably he took a rifle with him, too.

19 Q. Thank you. Could you hear the sounds of gunfire?

20 A. Yes, quite some.

21 Q. So upon the attack starting, you and your children and your

22 mother-in-law were the people left inside the house?

23 A. Yes. A boy called Brano from the neighbouring house later joined

24 us.

25 Q. Yes. I'll get to him in just a while. Firstly, from your

Page 3823

1 house -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that.

2 Your house was then constructed with several storeys, several

3 levels?

4 A. Two.

5 Q. And from the windows of the house, either on the first or second

6 level, did you have a view of the Drina River and also part of the village

7 of Bjelovac?

8 A. No. We could not see the river Drina from the first floor. There

9 was no view of the Drina River, but there was one from the second floor.

10 Q. So from various points around the house you could actually see out

11 towards the Drina and also into the village itself?

12 A. Only from the upmost floor of the house was there a view of the

13 river.

14 Q. All right. Thank you. During the course of the attack, did you

15 from time to time have occasion to look out the window from any point in

16 the house, looking in any direction, to see what was going on?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you see attackers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how they were dressed.

21 A. They wore civilian clothes. Some wore camouflage uniforms. They

22 had ribbons tied around their heads and armbands. When they came into the

23 houses, I saw that some of them had painted faces. Most of them carried

24 weapons.

25 Q. Did that include the men who were dressed as civilians, were they

Page 3824

1 also carrying weapons?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, it was dark when the attack first started. Did -- obviously

4 it eventually became light. Were you still in the house when it was

5 light?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you have neighbours with the surname Vucetic?

8 A. That's our next-door neighbour.

9 Q. Who's the father of the house?

10 A. Radovan Vucetic.

11 Q. And does he have a son called Milenko?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In 1992, about how old was Milenko?

14 A. He was about 15 or 16.

15 Q. And did they also have another son called Brano or Branko?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And how old was he?

18 A. 7 or 8. I can't be sure, but he was about that age, 7 or 8.

19 Q. And I just want to be clear about this little boy's name: Was it

20 Brano or Branko or both?

21 A. I called him Brano and so did all the other people in the village.

22 Maybe his full official name is Branko. However, I never heard anything

23 but Brano, and I always called him that myself.

24 Q. Now, did you during the course of the attack see anything happen

25 to this boy Milenko and his father?

Page 3825

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened? What did you see?

3 A. While we were still inside the house, the shooting was very

4 intense. We heard people moaning and crying outside in the yard. We knew

5 that somebody was injured. My mother-in-law opened the door and I

6 followed her straight away. This boy Milenko was on his knees on the

7 ground. He said, Don't come out because you'll be killed. He also said

8 his father was injured. My mother-in-law and I went quickly back inside

9 to get some sheets to bandage his wound; however, some of the attackers

10 most have noticed this movement and they started shooting again. My

11 mother-in-law was hurt my shrapnel, I believe, in the leg, and that's when

12 we closed the door and we didn't come out anymore.

13 Q. During the course of the attack, was your house actually shot at

14 with bullets?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Did the bullets come through windows?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, eventually did the attackers come close to your

19 house or men who were attacking, did they come close to your house?

20 A. They did.

21 Q. Did they say anything?

22 A. You could hear commotion, racket. You could hear them coming

23 closer and closer. You could hear they were already in the yard.

24 Q. Throughout the -- this -- these events you have been describing so

25 far, was there the sound of gunfire?

Page 3826

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you eventually decide to take refuge upstairs?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was that the whole party in the house, you, your

5 mother-in-law, and the children? Sorry, I didn't hear you.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. At the time of this attack on the 14th, were there any

8 weapons inside your house, any type of weapon? I'm not just talking about

9 guns.

10 A. There were two hand grenades that I had seen in those two days

11 that I had spent in Bjelovac. And of course the weapons --

12 Q. Just stop there. Sorry -- perhaps I interrupted you prematurely.

13 What other weapons were also in the house, apart from these grenades?

14 A. Nothing else.

15 Q. Okay. So at the time the attack is actually transpiring, taking

16 place, there are two grenades located in the house. Where are they in the

17 house?

18 A. In the room of my father-in-law.

19 Q. Was that on the ground floor or the upper floor?

20 A. The ground floor.

21 Q. Just answer my questions now with a yes or no if you can, please.

22 Did you receive any injuries during the course of this attack?

23 Just answer yes or no.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did Brano receive any injuries?

Page 3827

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did both of you sustain those injuries from a grenade? Just

3 answer yes or no.

4 A. Yes, we did.

5 Q. Have you given statements in the past concerning this attack where

6 you describe the sustaining of these injuries from the grenade? Just

7 answer yes or no.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you provide statements to Serb authorities after you were

10 exchanged -- a statement, I should say, to the Serb authorities shortly

11 after you were exchanged? Just answer yes or no.

12 A. I don't think I understood you sufficiently well.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Would you please repeat.

15 Q. All right. Just answer yes or no. After you were exchanged in

16 February of 1993, did you provide a statement to the Serb authorities, the

17 Serbian authorities, very shortly after?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Again, just answer yes or no. Did you provide a

20 statement to a judge in 1994? Just answer yes or no.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in March of the year 2000, did you provide a statement to

23 officers of the Office of the Prosecutor, the ICTY? Sorry?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in those statements did you describe the episode of the

Page 3828












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3829

1 injuries sustained by a grenade? Just answer yes or no.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, forgetting about what you might have said in

4 those statements, I want you to tell the Trial Chamber now, as you best

5 recall now, how it was that you sustained those injuries.

6 A. When we climbed upstairs, the five of us, we hid in part of the

7 loft that had been built out of wooden panels. However, they already knew

8 that there was somebody inside and they searched the house. When they

9 came in, they saw children's schoolbags. And before they came up, they

10 called out. They said, If there is anyone here, come out and surrender.

11 They searched for a long time without finding us. They warned that they

12 would throw a grenade from a hand-held rocket launcher called Zolja. They

13 warned many times, but we didn't surrender. We didn't come out of

14 the hiding place.

15 Then they left the house and we didn't hear anything else for a

16 while until a very strong explosion from a grenade that fell in to the

17 loft through the roof. Both Brano and I were injured. Brano was sitting

18 behind my back and my mother-in-law was leaning on the wall behind my

19 back. So Brano and I were wounded.

20 I ran into the adjacent room, picked up at random some children's

21 clothing and stuff, rejoined Brano and my mother-in-law. I heard them.

22 They were already in the house by that time. They were furious and they

23 were cursing and swearing. And suddenly one of them said, Oh, that's

24 where they are. He must have noticed the door to the loft. He opened it

25 very slightly and saw us. Then they took us out of the loft and brought

Page 3830

1 us downstairs.

2 Q. Thank you. We'll get to your capture in a moment.

3 You told the Trial Chamber that there were some other grenades

4 that were in the house that I think you said belonged to your husband.

5 Did anything happen in relation to those grenades during the morning of

6 the attack?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What happened?

9 A. When I heard that they were already close, I heard voices in the

10 yard, the first thing that I remembered were those hand grenades. I took

11 them and climbed upstairs and threw them out of the window. One of them

12 hit the floor of the terrace. In any case, I threw them outside. That's

13 how they knew that there was somebody inside and eventually found us.

14 While they were in the yard and while we were still inside, there was a

15 commotion and they must have heard voices.

16 Q. All right. So the injuries you sustained were from a grenade that

17 was fired, you presume, by the attackers, not by a grenade that you

18 wielded?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. All right. Thank you. Let's turn now to your capture. You were,

21 I think, captured upstairs in the loft area?

22 A. Yes. That's where we were wounded, yes.

23 Q. I see. Because you were taking refuge up there and that's where

24 the bomb exploded. Is that yes or no?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3831

1 Q. Did you recognise any of your captors when they first appeared?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Who was that?

4 A. The man who detected our hiding place was Mirza Hasanovic. He

5 lived in Sase. I recognised him. I also recognised Sefko Zukanovic. He

6 also lived in Sase and I knew him from school.

7 Q. How did you know Mirza Hasanovic?

8 A. He lived in Sase, and that's only three and a half to four

9 kilometres away from where I lived. We also went to school together in

10 Sase. He is one year younger.

11 Q. And what about the other chap, Zukanovic, how did you know him?

12 A. Also from school. He also lived in Sase. His sister went to the

13 same school as I did, so we knew each other well.

14 Q. What ethnicity are those two gentlemen?

15 A. They were Muslims.

16 Q. Thank you. Were you taken downstairs?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And were you kept there for a while?

19 A. Yes, for a long while.

20 Q. All right. Were you eventually -- did you eventually leave the

21 house and transfer to another place?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Stevo Filipovic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Does he live in Bjelovac or did he live in Bjelovac?

Page 3832

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On the day of the attack, did you move from your house to his

3 house?

4 A. Yes, we did but later, later that day.

5 Q. Right. Thank you. That's what I want to know. Now, how long

6 were you kept captive in your house before going to Stevo's house, about

7 how long?

8 A. A long time, until 1.00, maybe 1.30 p.m.

9 Q. It seemed a long time to you?

10 A. I don't remember anymore.

11 Q. All right. Were you guarded during that time that you were in

12 your own house?

13 A. The house was full. They were coming and going, replacing each

14 other, they were fighting from inside the house from other rooms. There

15 was more than a dozen of them.

16 Q. So --

17 A. The house was full.

18 Q. Again tell us, these men, how were they dressed?

19 A. Some wore civilian clothes, other wore camouflage uniforms, some

20 had paint on their faces, armbands, bandannas, they were armed.

21 Q. And was Mirza Hasanovic there throughout this period of time that

22 the fighting is going on from inside your house?

23 A. Yes, he was, although he came and went occasionally.

24 Q. All right. Did he appear to give orders, commands?

25 A. No.

Page 3833

1 Q. Was there --

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know what weaponry was being used by these men who had come

4 into your house? Was it just firearms or were they using rocket

5 launchers -- grenade launchers, sorry?

6 A. I saw rifles which had knives at the end of the barrel, that's the

7 kind of rifle they had. I heard them saying they had weapons called

8 Zoljas, that's a bit longer with a green barrel.

9 Q. Okay. Was -- okay, thank you. During the time that you're in

10 your house, okay, the period of time that you're in your house before

11 you're sent -- you go over to Stevo Filipovic's house, did you hear the

12 sound of airplanes?

13 A. No.

14 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that you were moved to the house

15 of Stevo Filipovic, and I'll ask you about the movement, the transfer from

16 your house to that house. Firstly, how far away is it from your place?

17 A. Not even 50 metres. It's very close by.

18 Q. And who transferred from your place to Stevo Filipovic's house,

19 was it all of the soldiers and all of you prisoners or just a portion

20 thereof?

21 A. All of us moved to Stevo's house.

22 Q. Thinking back on all of the events that you saw up until that

23 point, up until the transfer point, so before you went to Filipovic's

24 house, had you seen any houses burning, up until that point?

25 A. On the occasions when I left my house, I only saw smoke.

Page 3834

1 Q. Okay. So very well then. Let's turn our attention back to the

2 time you transferred from you place to the neighbour's house. When you

3 were making the trip from your house to Stevo Filipovic's house, did you

4 see any houses burning or smoking?

5 A. Yes. As we were coming out, on the left side I saw a lot of

6 smoke, although it was dark. It was Slavka Matic's house; I think it was

7 her house that was burning. It is right next to my house on the left. I

8 think it was her house that was burning. There was a great deal of smoke.

9 Q. Okay. As you left your house to go to Stevo Filipovic's house,

10 was anything said, said, or done in respect of your house, our own home?

11 A. Yes, there was.

12 Q. What was said or done?

13 A. One of the soldiers said, Set the house on fire immediately. We

14 left and I didn't look back because I didn't dare to. But I suppose

15 that's what they did, they set the house on fire.

16 Q. Well, now -- okay, now you didn't look back. Tell the Trial

17 Chamber why you suppose that. Why do you suppose that? Did you hear

18 anything or see anything that makes you think that or say that?

19 A. I supposed that because one of the soldiers said to the others,

20 Burn the house immediately. It sounded like an order.

21 Q. Thank you. So that's one of the soldiers who's been in your house

22 said to another soldier who had been in your house, Burn the house?

23 That's what you heard; is that your testimony?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And then you left your house but you didn't actually see it with

Page 3835

1 your eyes burning or being torched?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. I did not see it.

5 Q. On the trip or the short crossing from your place to the house of

6 Stevo Filipovic, did you see any bodies?

7 A. Yes. We saw Stevo Filipovic lying near his house, dead. He had

8 an entry and exit wound around his heart.

9 Q. When you saw him, was he - from what you could see anyway - in

10 uniform, clutching a rifle?

11 A. No, no. He was dressing -- he was dressed in civilian clothes.

12 Q. About how old was Stevo Filipovic in 1992? You don't have to be

13 precise, but if you can give us an idea if he was a young man or a

14 middle-aged man or an older man.

15 A. He was in his early 40s.

16 Q. What happened to your father-in-law?

17 A. He was killed. I saw him in the yard of our house as we were

18 leaving.

19 Q. And back in 1992, about how old was he?

20 A. 50-ish, I think 52 or 53, not more.

21 Q. And was he dressed in uniform or --

22 A. No, he wasn't. He was wearing civilian clothes.

23 Q. All right. Was he carrying or did you see around his body any

24 paraphernalia of war such as a gun, grenades, bullets helmet or anything

25 like that?

Page 3836

1 A. No, there was nothing. He was lying on the ground. I didn't see

2 anything.

3 Q. So that's two bodies you've told us that you saw during your

4 transfer from your house to the house of Stevo Filipovic. Did you see any

5 other bodies?

6 A. That's right, I did. I saw Slavo Mirdanjanovic [phoen]. I think

7 he was in his early 20s. His year of birth was 1970. He was lying right

8 next to our house.

9 Q. I have the same questions as with the others. Any uniform, any

10 paraphernalia of war, any equipment around him?

11 A. They were dressed in civilian clothes.

12 Q. Now, the house of Stevo Filipovic, was that intact when you first

13 arrived at it, crossing from your house to it, or was it burning?

14 A. Stevo Filipovic's house was already burning, and the upper floor

15 had already burnt down. It was smoldering by the time we came to the

16 house.

17 Q. When you arrived there, were there soldiers inside the house?

18 A. Yes, plenty.

19 Q. Again tell us, were they in, as you have described thus far, a

20 combination of men in civilian clothes and camouflage uniforms or were

21 they wearing something else?

22 A. The same.

23 Q. Well -- okay. Just to be absolutely sure, were they wearing

24 camouflage uniforms and armed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3837

1 Q. Was there firing of something other than guns, rifles I mean,

2 going on from the house?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was being fired from the house?

5 A. Later I heard planes flying over. There was a lot of noise.

6 Q. We'll get to the planes in just a moment. All I want to know

7 is -- let me ask you directly. Were there any Zoljas being fired from the

8 house, any grenades, rocket-propelled grenades?

9 A. Yes, there were Zoljas around. Later when the planes came, that's

10 when they used Zoljas, too.

11 Q. All right. By the time you got over to the house of Filipovic,

12 Stevo Filipovic, was it daylight?

13 A. Yes, very much so in fact.

14 Q. So the scenario at this point is you, your baby, your daughter,

15 and your mother-in-law are in that house surrounded by soldiers apparently

16 fighting. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long did you stay in that house for?

19 A. Until dusk.

20 Q. Thank you. During the course of the time, the period of time that

21 you spent in the house of Stevo Filipovic up until dusk, did you hear the

22 sound of airplanes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At about what time, doing the best you can, did you hear the

25 airplanes?

Page 3838

1 A. That was later on in the day, quite late in fact.

2 Q. Did the soldiers who were -- what you were with show any reaction

3 to the airplanes?

4 A. Yes. They had begun to panic and they were frightened.

5 Q. Did they say or do anything that indicated to you what -- how they

6 were going to deal with the airplanes?

7 A. They targeted the airplanes with these Zoljas they had. They

8 positioned themselves at all the windows and they used the windows to fire

9 from, and they were cursing all the time. They were very frightened.

10 Q. All right. Thank you.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'd like to show the

12 witness an exhibit at this juncture. I'd like to play D11 -- sorry, 111,

13 Defence exhibit. It's a video.

14 Would Your Honours just give me a moment to organise myself,

15 please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Di Fazio.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.

18 Q. Witness, I'd like to show you a video. You've seen parts of it

19 before, I believe. And I don't need sound for this specifically. And I'd

20 like to start at about 5.35. All right. Just go back a bit. Stop it.

21 Now, look at those, what you see now on the screen. Okay. What

22 you can see clearly at least is a row of houses --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Di Fazio. We are -- because in

24 the -- previously you said I'd like to start at about 5.35. For the

25 record, we are showing a clip from this video to the witness at 5.44.3.

Page 3839

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Perhaps if we could go back a little bit

2 to -- my notes are from 12.29 on the -- perhaps at the beginning of

3 12.29 --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: -- on the video. Just go back.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: This is 5.34, Mr. Di Fazio.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Fine, thanks. We can start here, and

8 I'll ask you to stop in just a second.

9 [Videotape played]


11 Q. Now, look at that row of houses. Do you recognise any of those

12 places?

13 A. All of them.

14 Q. Okay. Well, standing in the middle of the frame - that's 12.30

15 you can see on the time - is a white house, two-storey white house which

16 is not alight and which is seen most clearly. Whose house is that?

17 A. The person the house belongs to resides in Slovenia. Ever since I

18 came to -- ever since I first came to Bjelovac he was residing in Slovenia

19 throughout. He would only come over once a year for a holiday, but he

20 hails from Bjelovac. He was born there.

21 Q. And next to it is another structure that's plainly aflame. Whose

22 place is that?

23 A. This house belongs to Stevo Filipovic.

24 Q. It's obviously a mighty powerful flame that you can see there.

25 It's well alight --

Page 3840

1 MR. JONES: Well, I don't think we need Mr. Di Fazio's

2 observation. There's smoke. We don't see any flame. Anyway, it's not

3 for him to say.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps my learned friend is right. I'll retract

6 that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. He's certainly right.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps I jumped the gun there, if Your Honours

9 please. There's something wrong with the place, that's for sure.

10 Q. Did it look like that when you were being taken over to Stevo

11 Filipovic's house?

12 A. No. The upper-most floor had already burned down. There wasn't

13 that much smoke.

14 Q. All right. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we just continue.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Stop there.

18 Q. What's that in the foreground? Is that the river?

19 A. Yes, the Drina.

20 Q. Do you -- so this particular clip is shot from -- from where, from

21 Serbia or from Bosnia?

22 A. From Serbia.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours just bear with me.

Page 3841

1 I'd just like to find another portion on the video now; it's at --

2 should be at about 15.20.

3 All right. We can play.

4 [Videotape played]


6 Q. I'd like you to look at this, Witness, and tell us if you can

7 recognise any of the houses.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Stop there.

9 Q. First of all, that wooded area that you can see, does Bjelovac

10 have a similar wooded area like that?

11 A. Yes. That is the same wooded area that I can see on the screen

12 right now. That's the wooded area just beyond Bjelovac.

13 Q. Okay.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

15 [Videotape played]


17 Q. What's the little gathering of buildings at the bottom of the

18 screen? What is -- what place is that? Is that Bjelovac?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Continue.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. Do you recognise any of the houses there?

24 A. The one I can see burning in this frame is the house in which I

25 lived.

Page 3842












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3843

1 Q. That's your place then?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Continue.

4 [Videotape played]


6 Q. So again there you can see the house that you've identified as the

7 one as yours. There's another one over on the left on the far edge of the

8 screen. Any idea whose house that is? If you don't know, just say so.

9 A. This is Stevo Filipovic's house also, the next one.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But it --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the left.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make this clear: It's not the same house of

13 Stevo Filipovic that we saw burning before, no, it's a different one?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No -- yes, that's right.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 Judge Eser would like to ask you a question, Madam.

17 JUDGE ESER: Could you please tell us -- could you please tell us

18 in which house did you stay -- in which of Stevo Filipovic's houses? Was

19 it here on the screen? We cannot see it now.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one that you can see smoke

21 rising from, the next one.

22 JUDGE ESER: On the left side there's one, but you told us that

23 this is not the house in which you stayed.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That's the next one, because

25 Stevo Filipovic owns two houses, and we were in the other one.

Page 3844

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I just --

2 JUDGE ESER: And the other one is not on the screen here?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We saw it burning before.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see smoke.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it extreme left of the screen, no?

6 JUDGE ESER: To make it easier, could you just tell us who owns

7 these houses which we see on the screen now? We have one in the middle,

8 in the centre of the picture, and you told us that is your house?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ESER: Then you told us the left there is a house which

11 is -- as I can see is not burning at this moment. Whose house is this?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is Stevo Filipovic's house, one

13 of his houses.

14 JUDGE ESER: And the next house at the margin --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is also Stevo Filipovic's

16 house.

17 JUDGE ESER: And in which of Stevo Filipovic's house did you stay

18 after you have been taken from your own house to Stevo's house?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one that you are pointing at

20 right now, the other one that you can see smoke rising from.

21 JUDGE ESER: Okay.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And for the record, the pointer was pointing at what

23 appears to be part of a house in the middle -- extreme left part of the

24 picture.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that deals with what --

Page 3845

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've finished with D11 -- 111, sorry.

3 Q. During the time that you were at Stevo Filipovic's house, could

4 you hear the sound of bombing as opposed to rifle fire or submachine-gun

5 fire?

6 A. Yes, yes. I did. Those were probably bombs dropped by planes

7 because the explosions were very powerful.

8 Q. Right. And it's -- it may be difficult -- you may not be able to

9 answer this, but if you can do so. About how far away were the bombs

10 dropping? And if you have any idea where they were dropping, please tell

11 the Trial Chamber.

12 A. Not near where we were staying; it was further off.

13 Q. Okay. Further off. Can you tell us if further off means further

14 off into the village or further off outside the village or in any

15 particular direction? Again, if you can't answer it -- that, don't; but

16 if you can, tell us.

17 A. Further outside the village, that was what I noticed. I saw smoke

18 rising from the wooded area, and that was probably caused by a plane.

19 They did not drop any over the village itself.

20 Q. Thank you. During the course of that day were you taken outside

21 of the house, Stevo Filipovic's house, at all?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what was -- what happened when that occurred?

24 A. They had agreed to take me outside and that I should yell for them

25 to stop shooting and that they would in turn allow the Muslim army to

Page 3846

1 retreat into the woods. They brought me out, but my voice was not strong

2 enough to yell. So they took me back to the house.

3 Q. While you were inside the house, did the soldiers or your captors

4 describe or speak amongst themselves of their plans, in particular how

5 they intended to get out of the place?

6 A. Yes. They were in a panic, they were frightened. They had

7 nowhere left to go. It was an open area and they were only able to stay

8 inside the houses. And so they were very frightened.

9 Q. Did they discuss amongst themselves what they planned?

10 A. Yes. They agreed to stay put, and that's what they did.

11 Q. Now, you've told us already that eventually they left that -- they

12 left that night.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did -- when was that decision arrived at?

15 A. Well, it was when they talked, because after all they had nowhere

16 left to go. There was a clearing, an open area, to cross before they

17 reached the woods. So they stayed right there until night fall, hoping

18 that it would be easier for them later on to get across.

19 Q. How was your baby dressed at the time?

20 A. It was dressed in bright colours. They ordered me to take these

21 clothes off and discard them so that they wouldn't be noticed in the dark.

22 Q. And did you that night eventually leave Bjelovac with the

23 soldiers?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who was -- you've already told us of the people you were with,

Page 3847

1 your mother-in-law and your children. Did they also leave with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And how many soldiers approximately were there with you in the

4 party as you made your way out of Bjelovac at night?

5 A. Well, inside the house there were quite a number. But later we

6 joined up with the rest, the people we caught up with along the way or

7 maybe they caught up with us. At that point in time there were about 20

8 or 30 of us people who had left their homes.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm about to move on to another topic. Is this an

10 appropriate moment, Your Honour?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Di Fazio.

12 So, Madam, we are going to have a short break of 25 minutes,

13 during which you can have some coffee and rest a bit. We will resume soon

14 afterwards.

15 Thank you.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's wait for the accused.

19 Yes, let's continue, Mr. Di Fazio. Thank you.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. Now, before the break we got to the point where you were moving

22 from Stevo Filipovic's house, and you've told us how you left and how you

23 were in a group of soldiers. Where did you go?

24 A. We went to the nearby village of Poloznik.

25 Q. Approximately how far from Bjelovac is Poloznik?

Page 3848

1 A. Six, seven kilometres. I don't know exactly but thereabouts.

2 Q. On the way to Poloznik, did you see any bodies?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Whose bodies did you see?

5 A. Bodies of Serb civilians from Bjelovac village.

6 Q. Do you recall the names of any of them, who they were?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who were they?

9 A. I could recognise my brother-in-law, Dragan; my neighbour, Milo

10 Sovanovic; my mother-in-law recognised a young girl from the neighbourhood

11 Radenko Jovanovic, nicknamed Duda. She told me that Duda was lying there,

12 but I didn't look because I had seen enough bodies and I was scared. So I

13 didn't really look at the dead body that my mother-in-law pointed out to

14 me; I just passed by.

15 Q. Thank you. Of the bodies that you did look at, were any of them

16 in uniform and did they have weapons or bullets or grenades or knives or

17 any sort of soldier's paraphernalia on or around their bodies?

18 A. No. After all those were civilians from the village dressed in

19 civilian clothes. There were no weapons. I only saw the dead bodies, but

20 I was just passing by and I wasn't looking very closely. I didn't see any

21 weapons in any case.

22 Q. How old was Dragan, your brother-in-law, in 1992, approximately?

23 A. He was born in 1964, so he was 32 -- sorry. He was born in '62.

24 Q. Okay. That's fine. And what about the other gentleman, Milos

25 Jovanovic?

Page 3849

1 A. He could have been 60, 61. He was an elderly man.

2 Q. And did you know -- I know that you didn't look at any body you

3 identified as Radenka Jovanovic, but did you know Radenka Jovanovic?

4 A. It was a young girl. I did know her.

5 Q. Thank you. Is Poloznik a small village?

6 A. I don't know. I didn't know that village, but there were a couple

7 of houses around where we stayed but I didn't tour the entire village. I

8 don't know how many houses they were.

9 Q. Whose house did you go and stay at?

10 A. We went to Ramiz's house, Ramiz is a man I knew from before

11 because we worked for the same company in Sase.

12 Q. Do you know the surname?

13 A. I'm afraid I forgot. I used to know it, yes.

14 Q. That's okay. That's okay. Anyway, it was a man called Ramiz and

15 you worked with him in Sase. What ethnicity was he?

16 A. Muslim.

17 Q. And was he there when you arrived in company with the group of

18 soldiers?

19 A. [No interpretation].

20 Q. I -- you've got to speak up a little bit so that your answer is

21 interpreted. Is that a yes or no? Was Ramiz there when you arrived?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Just make sure you speak up so it's -- the interpreters hear it

24 and then it's recorded, okay?

25 Now, you've told us the attack was on the 14th of December, 1992.

Page 3850

1 Can you remember what day of the week that was?

2 A. A Monday.

3 Q. All right. So, so far the events are these: The attack occurred

4 on the early hours of Monday, the 14th of December; you stayed the day,

5 and you described what happened to you, in Bjelovac; and on the night of

6 the 14th, you made your way to Poloznik. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On the Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, where were you?

9 A. I was in Ramiz's house all the time.

10 Q. Okay. And on the Friday did you go anywhere?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where was that?

13 A. Srebrenica.

14 Q. All right. Okay. So now I want to take you back to the beginning

15 of your piece -- your period of time in Poloznik at the house of Ramiz on

16 that Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. They are the events I want to ask

17 you about. When you arrived at the house of Ramiz, were there any

18 soldiers there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did those soldiers remain in the house of Ramiz throughout the

21 three days that you were there? The three full days that you were there,

22 I should say.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you say "soldiers." Tell the Trial Chamber how they were

25 dressed.

Page 3851

1 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

2 Q. Were they armed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did soldiers -- again, when I say "soldiers," I mean men dressed

5 in camouflage uniforms bearing guns, did they arrive from time to time at

6 the house of Ramiz from the three days that you were there, other

7 soldiers that come into the house?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you see any messages being delivered to soldiers in that house

10 by other soldiers who arrived?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you -- were you able to discern or see if any particular

13 soldier in the house was receiving those messages?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who was that?

16 A. For instance, I knew and I heard of a person referred to as Mis,

17 which means mouse. Some messengers came in, handed in some reports.

18 There was also Hazim nicknamed Mrki, who also received very messages from

19 these couriers. And by the way, they spent all their time there in the

20 house, although they occasionally left, but they would always come back in

21 the evening.

22 Q. So the messages seem to be delivered - do I understand you

23 correctly - mainly to Mis and Mrki?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know Mrki's full name?

Page 3852

1 A. All I know is that his name was Hazim and that they called him

2 Mrki. Everybody called him Mrki. His home village is Voljavica.

3 Q. Did you know any of his family?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was there any radio in the house, radio communication,

6 paraphernalia, or equipment?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was that operated from time to time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Throughout --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

12 How do you know that Mrki was from Voljavica, from the village of

13 Voljavica?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I later found out that he

15 was originally from Voljavica while I was there in Srebrenica.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you find out anything else about him?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And what did you find out?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found out that he was very, very

20 close to Naser Oric, that he even acted as his deputy sometimes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know what his normal occupation was in

22 Voljavica before the war? What did he do in Voljavica?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I don't know that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


Page 3853

1 Q. I'm going to ask you about events later in Srebrenica. How long

2 were you actually in Srebrenica for, approximately?

3 A. For two months.

4 Q. In that time did you stay at two houses?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were these -- the owners of the houses that you stayed in, both

7 houses, were they related to Mrki in any way?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was the relationship?

10 A. They were sisters of Hazim, nicknamed Mrki.

11 Q. And in that time, those two months that you were in Srebrenica,

12 did you see Mrki from time to time at the house -- either of -- at the

13 house of either of the two sisters?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'll ask you about that in more detail later. There's just one

16 question that His Honour asked you. His Honour asked you: "What did you

17 find out about Mrki?" And you said that: "He was very, very close to

18 Naser Oric. That he even acted as his deputy sometimes."

19 What did you see or hear that makes you say that?

20 A. He spoke of it himself. He said that he was very, very close to

21 Naser Oric and that on many occasions he acted as his deputy. He said

22 that he physically resembled Naser Oric and many people confused them

23 because they were so alike.

24 Q. Was Mrki bearded at the time of your stay in Poloznik?

25 A. Yes, yes. A little.

Page 3854

1 Q. And you told us that Mrki spoke about to you -- or spoke about his

2 relationship with Naser Oric on many occasions. Was this later when you

3 were in Srebrenica or did he comment on his relationship during the period

4 of those three days that you were in Poloznik?

5 A. Later in Srebrenica, but also in Poloznik.

6 Q. All right. So you arrived during the night, I take it, the night

7 between the Monday and the Tuesday in Poloznik. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The next day when daylight came, did you have an opportunity to

10 look around or look outside the house?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see men in camouflage uniforms who were armed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What sort of numbers did you see around the house?

15 A. Well, they were coming and going all the time. They were milling

16 around. There were quite a few of them.

17 Q. Now, I'm not asking you to give precise numbers; I know you can't.

18 But can you give us an approximation of the numbers of men that you saw

19 milling around on that Tuesday. Is it a question of 10 or 20 men or 100

20 men, 5.000 men? Can you just give us an idea.

21 A. More than that, a couple of thousands. They were moving in large

22 groups and large columns.

23 Q. And you were there on the Wednesday and the Thursday as well. Did

24 you see large numbers of soldiers around the house on those days as well

25 or not?

Page 3855

1 A. Later, maybe on Wednesday or Thursday, there were slightly less in

2 number. Smaller groups were left only.

3 Q. Thank you. And just one final question. The radio that you

4 said -- that you mentioned, did you see that in use, being used, during

5 the three days, the Tuesday, the Wednesday, the Thursday?

6 A. Yes, especially by night. They did most of their radio

7 communication by night.

8 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Naser Oric?

9 A. Only from secondary school.

10 Q. What secondary school is that?

11 A. I, for instance, went to a vocational secondary school for the

12 catering business, and he went to the butcher's section of the same

13 school. It was the same building.

14 Q. I see. Is this when you --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was metal workers

16 school where Mr. Naser Oric went.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. Is that when you were a teenager?

19 A. Yes. It was in 1983/1984, in that period.

20 Q. And about how long did both of you attend the same institution?

21 A. It was the same school building.

22 Q. Yeah, I know. But how long were both of you there at the same

23 time? Was it a number of years or weeks or what?

24 A. For a year, only a year. I was a younger generation. I just

25 enrolled in that school when he was finishing.

Page 3856












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3857

1 Q. Did you know any members of his family?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Who?

4 A. His younger sister.

5 Q. In the time that you were at Poloznik, did the name -- was the

6 name Naser Oric mentioned?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In what context?

9 A. Yes. He arrived during the night of the 14th December at the

10 nearby village, Pirici. And he spent the night at his relative's house by

11 the last name of Kurta. I knew these people.

12 Q. Okay. Do you know any -- the first names of any of the Kurta

13 family?

14 A. They are two brothers of Naser Oric, Alija and Izet.

15 Q. Brothers of Naser Oric?

16 A. No, no. Alija and Izet are brothers. Naser spent the night of

17 the 14th of December at the house of the brothers.

18 Q. How far is Pirici from where you were staying, Poloznik,

19 approximately?

20 A. Maybe two or three kilometres away, not more than that. Pirici is

21 a place very close to Bjelovac village, the distance is again two or three

22 kilometres. It's closer to Bjelovac.

23 Q. All right. Now, tell the Trial Chamber why you say -- why you say

24 this, that Naser Oric spent the night with the Kurta family in Pirici.

25 What's your source of information?

Page 3858

1 A. Because the soldiers who were staying at Ramiz's house, where I

2 was kept, said, The commander, Oric, arrived last night and spent the

3 night at the house of the Kurta brothers.

4 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about some other people. Do you

5 know a man named Zulfo Tursunovic?

6 A. [No interpretation].

7 Q. Speak up, please. What's your answer?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If you don't speak up loud enough, it's not interpreted.

10 Does he have a nickname?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is it?

13 A. Tursun, I believe.

14 Q. Did -- before the war, did you ever see Mr. Tursunovic socially?

15 A. I used to see him. He called on sometimes at my father's house;

16 that's how I knew him.

17 Q. Where -- where was your father's house?

18 A. Azlica village, Srebrenica municipality. That's where I was born.

19 Q. What was Mr. Tursunovic's job in those days when he called at your

20 father's house?

21 A. Well, in our village they were clearing the wood one year. Zulfo

22 Tursunovic worked there with horses that he owned. And they would take

23 timber away from there, clear the timber. Therefore, he would come to my

24 father's house every evening, watch TV, just sit there for a while, that

25 sort of thing.

Page 3859

1 Q. Okay. Now, I'll turn your mind to Poloznik. On the Tuesday did

2 you see Mr. Tursunovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How was he dressed?

5 A. He was wearing camouflage uniform and he carried a weapon.

6 Q. Did he arrive -- I take it he arrived at the house of Razim. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Ramiz, yes.

9 Q. Ramiz.

10 Was he alone or in company with other soldiers?

11 A. He was alone when he came to the door, but the soldiers waited for

12 him outside the house.

13 Q. So this is the Tuesday, 15th of December?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did Mr. Tursunovic speak to you or your mother-in-law or your

16 children?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was said?

19 A. He yelled from where he was at the door. He said, Where are the

20 prisoners? Let them come out so I can see them. My mother-in-law, the

21 daughter, and myself came out. I brought the small child, too, the baby.

22 He said, Here you are. He asked where we were from, from which family.

23 And they asked if we had any other relatives. My mother-in-law said she

24 had a husband and two sons, and then he asked questions about them. He

25 asked where they are now, and she said they had been killed. He said,

Page 3860

1 Well, that's what they deserved. And then he asked me which family I

2 belonged to, and I said I was her daughter-in-law, that I am Radenko's

3 daughter. And he said he knew my father. And he asked me, Do you

4 remember me? And I said, Yes, I do.

5 Q. Do you recall any topics or conversations that were directed to

6 you by Mr. Tursunovic or is that it?

7 A. He said that we would be transferred at a later stage - he didn't

8 say when exactly - to Srebrenica.

9 Q. Right, I see. Was that -- did he say that you would be

10 transferred to Srebrenica towards the end of your encounter with him or

11 the beginning or you can't remember?

12 A. Right then, at that time.

13 Q. Did he say that you would be transferred later to Srebrenica as a

14 result of inquiries about you, from what your fate was to be, or did he

15 just tell you?

16 A. No, he said it himself. I would not have had the courage to ask

17 him myself.

18 Q. Thank you. All right. How long did your encounter with him last?

19 A. It was a brief one.

20 Q. Thank you. During that day were you questioned or spoken to by

21 anyone else?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you spoken to by a number of soldiers that day? By that I

24 mean men in uniform who were armed.

25 A. No. I wasn't spoken to by many soldiers, but quite a number of

Page 3861

1 them kept arriving. And probably the people who spoke to us were people

2 from those units such as Smajo or Mandza. He, for instance, talked to

3 us. On that day, Barak, a man named Barakovic and nicknamed Barak from

4 Jadar was another one. Kemo from Pale - I do remember that - he was

5 another man who spoke to us on that day.

6 Q. All right. These are the men I want to ask you about, okay? And

7 doing the best you can, let's go through them in sequence. Is it the case

8 that Zulfo Tursunovic was the first to speak to you or was it one of these

9 other men whose name you have mentioned? Can you remember?

10 A. Zulfo Tursunovic was the first, and then others followed.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. They entered the houses later.

13 Q. So of the men whose names you've mentioned, who came after Zulfo

14 Tursunovic as your memory best tells you?

15 A. I can't remember exactly who came next, but they followed in a

16 quick succession.

17 Q. Okay then. Well, let me ask you about them individually. You've

18 mentioned one man, Barak. Do you know the actual surname of this man?

19 A. Barakovic, and I know that he hailed from Jadar, a village in

20 Srebrenica municipality.

21 Q. How do you know that?

22 A. I know because when I returned from captivity in Srebrenica I

23 heard that he was from Jadar. My mother was born in the same village, and

24 I asked whether they had a family of that name over there. And she said

25 that indeed they did, that those were neighbours but they were younger.

Page 3862

1 Q. But up until that day in Poloznik, that Tuesday the 15th, you had

2 never met this man Barakovic or Barak before?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Can you recall what he asked you about?

5 A. Yes, I can. He asked us about our families and which members of

6 our families were still in Bjelovac at the time, whether there were any

7 soldiers and whether they were armed. That sort of question, for the most

8 part.

9 Q. Thank you. You mentioned another name, Kemo. Firstly, do you

10 know -- I take it that Kemo is a nickname. Do you know this guy's -- this

11 gentleman's full name?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Had you heard about him prior to the war?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What had you heard about him?

16 A. I'd heard when I was younger - I was still going to school - that

17 he caused a lot of trouble, incidents. And I also heard that he had once

18 killed a man in a bar. He was a man prone to such outbursts of rage and

19 punch-ups.

20 Q. Had you actually seen him or laid eyes on him prior to this day in

21 Poloznik? Had you physically seen him?

22 A. No, no. I didn't know that man, not personally.

23 Q. Well, at the time that you were being questioned by Kemo, did you

24 know that he was the same Kemo whom you had heard about in your younger

25 days?

Page 3863

1 A. No.

2 Q. So he was just a face to you at the time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when did you find out that in fact this person who spoke to

5 you in Poloznik was in fact Kemo and how did you find that out?

6 A. I found out later when I was in Srebrenica or at Solocusa.

7 Q. And who told you?

8 A. Hazim, also known as Mrki, was the one who told me.

9 Q. And what precisely did he tell you? What did he say to you or

10 what happened that made you put two and two together, that made you

11 conclude, Okay, the man that I used to know about, that I'd heard about as

12 a younger girl was in fact the same guy who interviewed me on Tuesday,

13 the 15th, in Poloznik, that it was in fact Kemo. How did you make the

14 connection?

15 A. Hazim once said when he came to visit us that in Potocari there

16 was some prisoners - and he was talking about Kemo - and that there was

17 some young girls among those prisoners over there. They had to lock them

18 up to save them from Kemo who apparently wanted to kill them. This

19 apparently was the reason why they had to lock them up.

20 Q. Well, that might explain that you heard more bad things about

21 Kemo, but it doesn't explain to the Trial Chamber how it is that you know

22 that one of the guards -- one of the men who came and spoke to you on that

23 Tuesday was Kemo. You knew Zulfo because you'd seen him before at your

24 father's house. How did you know that the man that came and spoke to you

25 was Kemo?

Page 3864

1 A. Hazim, called Mrki, told me. I described his physical appearance,

2 and he confirmed that this was indeed the same person. I told him that he

3 was a horrifying man, or rather very serious at first glance. I explained

4 what his physical appearance was like, and Hazim confirmed.

5 Q. What did the man you believe is Kemo, what did he ask you about?

6 A. Well, the usual sort of thing, like everyone else, who was in

7 Bjelovac, what sort of weapons did they have, what really happened over

8 there, more or less the same questions as everyone else. How many

9 soldiers were around, if any, that sort of thing.

10 Q. When you were being asked questions by the man you believe is

11 Kemo, was he holding anything?

12 A. Yes. A large knife, and he also carried another weapon, a rifle,

13 but he certainly did have a very long knife.

14 Q. Did he do anything with it?

15 A. Yes. He fiddled with it from one hand to the other. He kept

16 fidgeting with that knife.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. That's enough about Kemo.

18 You mentioned another man who -- I believe, who spoke to you was a

19 gentleman named Smajo. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know his full name?

22 A. Smajo Madzic also known as Madza; that's what everyone called

23 him. Smajo Mandzic nicknamed Mandza [as interpreted].

24 Q. Did I hear you correctly, was it Smajo Madzic or Smajo Mandzic,

25 M-a-n?

Page 3865

1 A. Mandzic.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, prior to this encounter, had you ever met him or

3 seen him before?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How do you know his name was Smajo Mandzic and that he was known

6 as Mandza?

7 A. He introduced himself. I heard other people referring to him as

8 Mandza, so then he introduced himself. He had a brother named Kiram, at

9 least I think his name was Kiram but I may be wrong about this. He worked

10 at the Sase mine. And when he heard I worked at the mine, too, he asked

11 me if I knew his brother and I said I did. And then he explained that

12 this was indeed his brother. But the point is he introduced himself,

13 that's how I knew.

14 Q. All right. Thank you. Again, can you tell us what he asked you

15 about.

16 A. The same questions. All of those questions were the same for the

17 most part.

18 Q. You've mentioned the name Mrki. Was he there on this Tuesday?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you questioned by him at all?

21 A. No, not by him.

22 Q. So far you've told us of these encounters between you and these

23 men who you've told us about. Was your mother-in-law also questioned or

24 was it just you?

25 A. Both. Both separately.

Page 3866

1 Q. You've told us about the information that you heard about Mr. Oric

2 regarding where he had stayed overnight. Other than that occasion, did

3 you hear Mr. Oric being discussed by the soldiers in any context

4 whatsoever during the three days that you were in Poloznik?

5 A. No.

6 Q. These men that interrogated you, did you see them from time to

7 time over the next three days?

8 A. Yes. Not all of them, but I did see Mrki, Mis, and Mandza again

9 from time to time over the following days. Mis and Mrki were there the

10 whole time. Sometimes every now and then they would leave the house.

11 Q. You saw -- you described earlier in your evidence messengers

12 arriving. Did messengers continue to arrive, come and go, from the house?

13 A. Yes. Usually at night.

14 Q. Okay. And apart from the encounter with Kemo and when he was --

15 with the knife, were you mistreated or any -- or your mother-in-law or

16 your children in those three days that you were there in the house?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I want you to turn your attention now to the Friday. You've

19 already told us that that's the day that you went to Srebrenica. So

20 it's --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That's the 18th; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How did you get from your location in Poloznik to Srebrenica?

25 A. We arrived in a yellow car, a Mercedes.

Page 3867

1 Q. First of all, did -- did you travel in the yellow Mercedes from

2 Poloznik all the way to Srebrenica, or did you pick up the car at some

3 later point?

4 A. The whole time, from my house to Srebrenica.

5 Q. You mean from the house of -- in Poloznik to Srebrenica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who was driving the car?

8 A. Mis.

9 Q. Were any other of those men you've described in the car?

10 A. Yes. Mrki sat on the passenger's seat, and the five of us were

11 seated at the back.

12 Q. I realise I've omitted to explain one important matter. You

13 mentioned earlier in your evidence -- you mentioned earlier in your

14 evidence there was a little boy who was injured about the same time you

15 were in your house, and his name was Brano. Do you remember that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was Brano with you from the time that you were taken from your

18 house to the house of Stevo Filipovic, and from Stevo Filipovic's house to

19 the house in Poloznik and then --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. So I've only been referring to your mother-in-law and your

22 children so far, but in fact the group of captives wasn't just that, it

23 was you, your mother-in-law, your little boy Nemanja, your daughter

24 Olivera, and this little boy Brano?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3868

1 Q. And that's the group that was in the back seat of the yellow

2 Mercedes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Did the drive take you through Bjelovac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you see out of the window of the car?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what you could see of the houses, what sort

9 of condition they were in as you drove through Bjelovac on your way to

10 Srebrenica.

11 A. Most of the houses had been burnt. Those that had not been burned

12 had no windows. We met a lot of passers-by on the way, women walking

13 along the road, soldiers, too. Women were carrying bags. Probably they

14 were in the process of looting. Soldiers were carrying things, too, sacks

15 and bags. As for the houses, most of the houses had been burnt. There

16 was smoke smoldering from some, but not all.

17 Q. What about your house? Did you see your house?

18 A. Yes. That was the house I really wanted to see, so I paid close

19 attention. The second floor had burned down and all the woodwork had

20 burned down, too. So, yes, I did see the house.

21 Q. All right. Now, I just want a bit more detail about what you saw.

22 Is it your position that most of the houses in the village had some fire

23 damage from what you could see? Is that how I understand you correctly?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do I also understand you correctly that they appeared to be

Page 3869

1 damaged but were not smoldering, apart from a small number of houses that

2 were still smoldering?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said you saw civilians. Did that include men, women, and

5 children?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did they have bags?

8 A. Yes. Quite many.

9 Q. Did you see any civilians inside houses or apparently going into a

10 house or looting a house?

11 A. No. No. I don't remember.

12 Q. Did you see these civilians carrying bags whilst the car's

13 actually travelling through the village of Bjelovac? Did you see these

14 civilians carrying bags in the village of the Bjelovac, not on the road to

15 Bjelovac or on the road from Bjelovac, but inside the village of Bjelovac,

16 did you see civilians carrying bags?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. At the same time, and again I stress inside the village of

19 Bjelovac, at the same time that you saw these civilians carrying bags did

20 you see soldiers in camouflage uniforms bearing arms?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I take it that you continued through the town and continued on the

23 road to Srebrenica. Correct?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. On the road to Srebrenica as you're travelling along in the yellow

Page 3870












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3871

1 Mercedes, did you civilians carrying bags?

2 A. No. We mostly came across small groups of soldiers, not large

3 groups, small groups heading for Srebrenica.

4 Q. Were these men dressed in camouflage uniforms and armed?

5 A. There were men in camouflage uniforms and some were wearing

6 civilian clothes, but all were bearing arms.

7 Q. Were any of them carrying bags?

8 A. Perhaps rucksacks, but -- yes, rucksacks and backpacks slung over

9 their shoulders.

10 Q. And were these small groups of men from time to time -- that you

11 would see from time to time along the road as you approached Srebrenica?

12 A. Yes, yes. Small groups.

13 Q. About what time of the day did you arrive in Srebrenica?

14 A. Sometime, not too early and not too late.

15 Q. Where were you taken?

16 A. In the afternoon hours perhaps.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours just bear with me.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, before you move to the next set of

19 questions, Judge Eser would like to ask a couple of questions in relation

20 to the location of the various places on the map. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ESER: Yes. I would like to have a question with regard to

22 the tour which you took from Poloznik to Srebrenica. And it would be

23 helpful to have Exhibit P45, P405. Could perhaps give the map to the

24 witness?


Page 3872


2 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours mind if I just had a brief look

3 at it before it's handed to the witness?

4 JUDGE ESER: You can also give it to the Defence before ... It's

5 only just to make clear where we are, where they were are moving around.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You had -- Mr. Di Fazio, you had indicated that you

7 would be making use of a map --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: That's for the --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, we have no indication of which map -- I think

10 you had better show it first to Mr. Di Fazio because it has got markings

11 on it.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I think I'm okay. I've got a copy. It can be ...

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It has markings on it.

14 JUDGE ESER: The markings are not important for me.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah. But they may have objections, either

16 the Defence or the Prosecution. So we show them first to the parties.

17 Do you have any objection of making use of that map?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Absolutely none whatsoever.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Since it has got markings on it.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: None at all. In fact, I think it would be a fairly

21 useful exercise.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. But, of course, I need the go-ahead.

23 So, usher, you can show that map to the witness. Maybe we can put

24 it on the ELMO and then we can zoom in the area or the part of the map

25 that we will be dealing with.

Page 3873

1 I think I can direct straight away the technicians to move a

2 little bit the map -- yes, exactly. Centre the marked part and when we

3 tell you to zoom in -- yes, that's perfect. You could leave it at that

4 for the time being. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ESER: Now, Ms. Stojanovic, could you perhaps locate the

6 place Poloznik? You are very close to it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

8 JUDGE ESER: Could you now locate Srebrenica. It's not on the map

9 now. The map should be moved further up -- yes, here. And now you told

10 us that you drove from Poloznik to Bjelovac.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ESER: And now my first question is: It looks a little bit

13 strange that you went this long way from Poloznik to Bjelovac and then to

14 Srebrenica, although it would be -- it looks much closer from Poloznik to

15 Srebrenica if you would go directly. So you took a long detour via

16 Bjelovac. Did you find Bjelovac?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ESER: If you go one to the north.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should be right here, but I can't

20 see any writing. Here it is, Bjelovac.

21 JUDGE ESER: Now, if you look here, it is a little bit strange, at

22 least you may wonder why you did not take a direct route from Poloznik to

23 Srebrenica because it's west of Srebrenica, is west of Poloznik. And

24 instead you went from Poloznik to Bjelovac. Is that because there's no

25 direct road between Poloznik and Srebrenica?

Page 3874

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but I can point out

2 for you all the places that we drove through if you like.

3 JUDGE ESER: Yes. That's --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the places along the road, if I

5 may.

6 JUDGE ESER: And when you spoke of houses burning, could you

7 identify the villages where you saw houses burned down.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bjelovac, Bjelovac.

9 May I continue?


11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Biljaca. Here we can see Sase where

12 it says "lead and zinc," and then Gradina, Azlica, Zalazje, and finally

13 Srebrenica. So these are the villages we drove through en route. And

14 these are villages that I am indeed very familiar with.

15 JUDGE ESER: In which villages did you see either houses burning

16 or that people would take away or were carrying certain things, in which

17 of these villages?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bjelovac, yes.

19 JUDGE ESER: Only in Bjelovac or also in other villages?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Only that one.

21 JUDGE ESER: Yeah.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But, there's one point that I didn't understand,

23 Madam. Under normal circumstances someone who wanted to go from Poloznik

24 to Srebrenica with his own car, would he have gone the same route, the

25 same way you went to Srebrenica on that day; or is there a more direct

Page 3875

1 approach that he could take?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what you mean now. The

3 road that we took to Srebrenica is passable asphalt road; whereas, the

4 road from Poloznik to Bjelovac is a track, a macadam road, through the

5 woods. And it's probably the same kind of road directly from Poloznik to

6 Srebrenica.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think that --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that area that well.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 But had you been to Srebrenica before in your life, before that

11 day?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until what day?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Until you were taken to Srebrenica from Poloznik.

14 Had you been to Srebrenica before?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's where I went to

16 secondary school. I lived close to Srebrenica, only eight kilometres

17 away.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You had never travelled by car from Poloznik to

19 Srebrenica direct, no?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I never went up there. That

21 was the first time that I was in Poloznik. I had never been there before.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we can move to where we

23 interrupted you, Mr. Di Fazio. Thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm very grateful, actually. In fact, if I might

25 ask one question just while you've got the map there P45 -- oh, sorry,

Page 3876

1 P450.


3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks. Okay. P450.

4 Q. You mentioned earlier another village that was apparently quite

5 close to Poloznik called Pirici. Can you see that on the map? Or Pirici?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Can you show the Judges?

8 A. Yes, I have to find it. Yes, this is the place.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Ms. Usher, I've finished with the map.

11 Q. Okay. So now I want to take you to your arrival in Srebrenica.

12 Where in Srebrenica were you taken to?

13 A. We were taken into a building that is right next to the town hall,

14 the municipality building, where we were interrogated.

15 Q. And who interrogated you?

16 A. A man I knew from before, Hamed Hasanovic. I knew him from

17 school, and we also worked in the same company in Srebrenica.

18 Q. Was he in uniform?

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. Was he armed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You were taken in the car, the yellow Mercedes, with two men

23 you've described as soldiers, Mis and Mrki. Did Mis and Mrki deliver your

24 party, the group of captives, to Mr. Hasanovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3877

1 Q. So it was them that took you to this interpretation, not only

2 transporting you to Srebrenica - I know that you've said that - but once

3 you got to Srebrenica it was them, Mis and Mrki, who handed you over to

4 the interrogator. Do I understand you correctly?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did Hasanovic interrogate you for a while?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Questioned you. And what about your mother-in-law, Dostana

9 Filipovic, was she also questioned?

10 A. Yes, we were together.

11 Q. What sort of topics were covered during the questioning?

12 A. He asked us where we were coming from, what were the members of

13 our family, if there was any army in Bjelovac, in Bratunac, how well they

14 were armed. He asked about many missing Muslims, mentioning them by name.

15 But we were not able to answer these questions.

16 Q. All right. What about the personal details from yourself and your

17 children. Did you -- were you asked about that?

18 A. Yes, yes. He also asked about that.

19 Q. And Brano was there as well?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. How long were you questioned for?

22 A. Not a very long time because we couldn't answer most of the

23 questions. We didn't know anything, so it didn't take long.

24 Q. During the questioning, were the two men, Mis and Mrki, present?

25 A. They were. They came and went, but they were around.

Page 3878

1 Q. Was there any discussion as to where you, I mean -- by that I mean

2 the party of captives, Brano and your mother-in-law and so on, would stay?

3 Where you would be kept?

4 A. Yes, they talked among themselves. They discussed us.

5 Q. When you say that, they talked amongst themselves, did Mis and

6 Mrki, the army -- the soldiers participate in those discussions concerning

7 where you were going to be kept?

8 A. Yes. They talked about that and they were trying to decide where

9 they were going to keep us.

10 Q. All right. And was a decision finally reached?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And where were you taken?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please repeat his question.

14 The interpreters couldn't hear you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure. I apologise.

16 Q. Where were you finally taken?

17 A. They took us to Solocusa, to the house of Hazim's sister.

18 Q. Is that --

19 A. Her husband's name was Mujo; I remember that.

20 Q. Is Hazim Mrki?

21 A. Yes, he is. And Mis, both of them.

22 Q. Hang on. Isn't -- there was only one Mis, that's the soldier who

23 was in Poloznik, and drove you in the yellow Mercedes to Srebrenica. One

24 person called Mis. Is that right?

25 A. Yes. Yes. That's the man who took us to Solocusa, Mis, with the

Page 3879

1 same car.

2 Q. I see. And Solocusa, is that just on the outskirts of Srebrenica?

3 A. Yes. It's perhaps two kilometres before Srebrenica.

4 Q. Can you remember who -- of the party who went to this house? Was

5 it you, your children, Brano, and your mother-in-law?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And this area Solocusa, was that the area, apart from switching

8 from one house to the other, that you basically stayed in for the next two

9 months?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the two houses in Solocusa that you stayed at in the next two

12 months were both owned by the two sisters of Mrki. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did they have their own families living there, husband and

15 children?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. The next day after you'd been -- the next

18 day you were in Srebrenica, were you taken back for interrogation?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who came and collected you?

21 A. The same men, Hazim and Mis.

22 Q. And where were you taken?

23 A. They took us again to Srebrenica.

24 Q. And where in Srebrenica were you taken?

25 A. For repeated interrogation in the SUP building. They questioned

Page 3880

1 us there again and took us again to Hamed's, where we had been the day

2 before.

3 Q. Did your mother-in-law come back with you on this occasion?

4 A. No. On that day she stayed back in Srebrenica.

5 Q. Why?

6 A. Because they separated us then.

7 Q. And did you see her again until your exchange?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Where?

10 A. I saw her in the building of the SUP. I gave her some pills that

11 she needed and that had stayed on me. I was about two or three days late.

12 Q. I'd like you to look at this photo from Exhibit P419, in

13 particular photo 03617712 which is on the screen -- should be on the

14 screen shortly.

15 Do you recognise any of the locations that you can see in that

16 photo?

17 A. Yes. On the right-hand side is the town hall of Srebrenica, the

18 municipality building, and on the left-hand side is the building where we

19 were interrogated, however the entrance was further up. So it's the

20 building on the left.

21 Q. And do you know where your mother-in-law was kept during her time

22 in Srebrenica?

23 A. She was kept in prison, together with all the other captives.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I don't know where

25 the other captives were.

Page 3881


2 Q. And looking down the end of the little laneway that separates the

3 two buildings you've talked about beyond the white car is another building

4 that appears to have a pink addition on top. Do you recognise that --

5 part -- that part of that building?

6 A. It's probably a house. I don't know. I know it from before.

7 Q. All right. Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I've finished with that.

9 Q. You were telling us about an occasion when you took pills to your

10 mother-in-law. How did you accomplish that? How did you get the pills

11 and how did you get from Solocusa to wherever your mother-in-law was being

12 kept? How did you manage that?

13 A. We walked there from Solocusa to Srebrenica. Hazim, nicknamed

14 Mrki, came and said that she was ill and that she asked me to send back

15 the pills. And I asked him for permission to go and see her. I went

16 there, I gave her the pills, and from that day until the exchange, we

17 didn't meet again.

18 Q. Were you accompanied when you went to speak to her? Were you

19 accompanied when you took the pills to her or were you allowed to go by

20 yourself?

21 A. Hazim, also known as Mrki, accompanied me, both there and back.

22 And he was present during our encounter.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I know it's a little early,

24 but I'm about to move on to some topics that involve documents, and I'd

25 prefer to be able to march through my thoughts about that. I'm happy to

Page 3882

1 say that it's going as planned and I expect to be finished today.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. And more or less you still are

3 where you thought earlier on this morning? Two hours?

4 MR. JONES: Yes. It might be slightly more, perhaps two and a

5 half hours, but we have plenty of time tomorrow.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You will be able to finish tomorrow, in other words?

7 MR. JONES: Yes, that's for sure. If Mr. Di Fazio finishes today.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, obviously, obviously.

9 Okay. We will have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank

10 you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about the delay, but I got held up on

14 something urgent.

15 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, I've just been looking at my notes

17 and what I've got left. I think that I'll be lucky to finish today. If I

18 go over, though, I'd just like to allay your fears that if that happens

19 it's not going to take me very long to finish.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you're going to finish today, Mr. Di Fazio.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. I'd like to --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You're welcome.


25 Q. I'd like you to look at a document that I produced to you. It

Page 3883

1 bears 02075680 as ERN number. Copies should be available.

2 MR. JONES: Just to say, Your Honour, that our objections to

3 documents from the Sokolac collection are on the record and will emerge

4 also in the course of cross-examination, but just so that is noted.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: And apparently this document can also be viewed on

7 Sanction.

8 Q. Now, you have the document in front of you. Have you -- prior to

9 coming here to The Hague, had you ever seen that document before?

10 A. No.

11 Q. It apparently says on the face of it that it's dealing with

12 certain persons. I want to run the names by you. Do you know a person

13 named Stana Mitrovic, father Slavko. Just yes or no.

14 A. No.

15 Q. What about the next name down the document, Mara Obradovic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What about the third name - I think you know her name - Dostana

18 Filipovic, that's your mother-in-law?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In that paragraph there's some information there concerning your

21 family and your family life. In the second sentence it says that your

22 mother-in-law Dostana took care of the children in the apartment in

23 Bjelovac when you weren't there.

24 Did that ever happen? Did she baby-sit for you from time to

25 time?

Page 3884












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3885

1 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Can you please repeat

2 it.

3 Q. Okay. Read the second -- the last paragraph. You see there it's

4 talking about Dostana Filipovic.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. She -- it says that she is the mother-in-law of a person

7 called Mira Radovic.

8 A. My name is Mira Filipovic, not Mira Radovic.

9 Q. Exactly. I was going to ask you about. Is Radovic your maiden

10 name or is it any name you're familiar with?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go straight to the document, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 Look at the second sentence in that paragraph, please, which starts [B/C/S

14 spoken]. Do you agree with what is written there? Is that correct?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Why isn't it correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I don't understand when my

18 mother-in-law looked after my children. While I was at work, she did look

19 after my daughter, but that was while I was still employed and working.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio, she is back to you.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I tender the document, if Your Honours

22 please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: This has not been marked or pre-marked. Not yet.

24 So this will be P?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be P468.

Page 3886


2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 Can I move on to the next document while that's being dealt with?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. Go ahead.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful, Your Honours.

6 Q. Now I'd like to produce another document to you. And for the

7 purposes of the record that bears ERN 02075738. Now, look at that

8 document, please. That is in fact almost identical to the document I

9 showed you before, but it also bears some handwriting. And it's the

10 handwriting that I'm interested in. And you see that underneath the

11 paragraph dealing with Stana Mitrovic, Mara Obradovic, and Dostana

12 Filipovic, someone had written in handwriting: Exchanged on 7th of March,

13 1993, at Vitez. Do you see that handwriting?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I haven't yet got to your exchange, but I will shortly. But were

16 you -- think carefully about this question. Can you tell the Judges, yes,

17 I was exchanged on the 7th of March; or is it the case that you don't know

18 when you were exchanged?

19 A. I don't know the exact date when I was exchanged, but it was

20 certainly in February.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. And I was exchanged together with my mother-in-law and with the

23 children.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, you are probably looking at the

25 English translation of the original. But in the original, while the first

Page 3887

1 one, Stana Mitrovic, is shown to be exchanged on the 7th of March, the

2 other two, the date is 7th of February and not the 7th of March.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, you're quite right. I'm sorry. I was misled

4 by the English. I'm grateful, Your Honour, for that.

5 Q. And I think I might have misled you, too, Witness. In fact, if

6 you look at the entries that come under the name of Obradovic and

7 Filipovic, the date says there -- there's a reference to an exchange at

8 Vitez on the 7th of February, 1993. Now, could that be the date on which

9 you were exchanged?

10 A. It's possible. The month was February, and the year is the same.

11 Q. Do you know this place, Vitez? Do you know of it?

12 A. No, not really. I thought, for instance, that I was exchanged at

13 Jezero because I knew that place and I thought it was Jezero. I didn't

14 know Vitez.

15 Q. Where's -- and what is Jezero? Is that a village, an area, a

16 lake, a mountain? What is it?

17 A. It's a mountain.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you tendering this document?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I certainly seek to, yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So this will be marked as P469.

22 Just for the record, it's being pointed out that while the

23 previous document was dated 9th February, this one is dated 3rd February

24 and it refers to exchanges that took place allegedly on the 7th of

25 February and in the first part, 7th of March of 1993.

Page 3888

1 Yes, go ahead, Judge Eser.

2 JUDGE ESER: Before we leave this document, there's something else

3 a little bit strange. If you go to the Serbian version, the Serbian --

4 the date is 3rd of February, 1993, and if you come down under Mitrovic who

5 was exchanged, it reads like 6th of March, 1993.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

7 JUDGE ESER: Handwriting.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that is so. That is so, if Your Honours

9 please. I don't think that I can elicit any explanation from this

10 witness --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly not.

12 Just point it out for the record.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful to Your Honours for that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Thank you. Can we move on now and the

16 witness be shown P157.

17 Could Your Honours just bear with me briefly.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, this particular document contains some details

19 about your life in Srebrenica in those two months, and that's what I want

20 to ask you about. Firstly, your father's name -- is your father's name

21 Radojko?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And your mother-in-law, what was her maiden name?

24 A. Avramovic.

25 Q. Go to paragraph 2 of this document, and it says that you and your

Page 3889

1 children and Brano are going to be accommodated with someone called Hamiz

2 Omerovic from Voljavica? Who's that? Who's Hamiz Omerovic?

3 A. Hazim, it's probably the person known as Mrki. I didn't know his

4 last name.

5 Q. And is he -- did you say earlier that he's from Voljavica? Is

6 that what you understood?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you know the full name of Mis?

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I've finished with that document.

12 Can the witness be shown document --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Is -- has this been tendered or --

14 MR. DI FAZIO: It's in evidence. It's P157.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

17 Q. Now can I produce to you document bearing ERN number 02075729.

18 Now, again there are details that touch upon your personal circumstances.

19 Olivera's father, what's her -- what's the name of the father of Nemanja

20 and Olivera?

21 A. Slavoljub. Radojko is the name of my father, so there's an error

22 here.

23 Q. I see. Radojko is your father's name. Thank you. Now, was

24 Olivera born in 1970?

25 A. No, in 1989. This is again a mistake. The date given for Nemanja

Page 3890

1 is correct, although the father's name is Slavoljub, not Radojko.

2 Vucetic, Brano, son of Radovan, that's correct. But I don't know in which

3 year he was born. It says 1983 here, it may be correct. I don't know.

4 Q. And what about the last entry, do you know Branimir Mitrovic,

5 father Svetozar. Do you know him?

6 A. No, that one wasn't with us. I don't know about that.

7 Q. Thank you. And go to the bottom of the document. Again, there's

8 a handwritten note says: "Exchanged at Jezero (Toplica) on 7th February

9 1993."

10 Have you ever heard of Toplica?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Is that close to Jezero?

13 A. I don't know where it is, but I heard about a place called

14 Toplica.

15 Q. And could you just briefly look at this map that I want to produce

16 to you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: This document --

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I'm sorry. It should be tendered.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So this will be 470.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And incidentally, if -- there's an obvious

22 indication that the date of the four individuals mentioned in this

23 document is wrong, because if the Olivera Filipovic was indeed born in

24 1970, she wouldn't be underage in February of 1993.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: She just touched upon that, Your Honour.

Page 3891


2 MR. DI FAZIO: She said that was wrong and the child was born in

3 1989.

4 Thank you. Could you put this map that I now produce on to you on

5 the ELMO. And for the assistance of Ms. Usher, the area that I want is

6 the bottom part of this map in particular.

7 Q. Could you indicate, looking at that map, if you know where Jezero

8 is.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: And I might ask the usher to take this marker pen

10 and give it to the witness. And if the witness can indicate where Jezero

11 is, to circle it.

12 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].


14 Q. Okay. Do you see Toplica anywhere nearby? Good. Circle that,

15 too, please.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Circle Toplica.

18 A. [Witness complies].

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Could -- between Toplica and Jezero, could you put

20 your initials, please.


22 Q. Could you do as His Honour asked you to, put your initials in

23 between the two markings, Toplica and Jezero.

24 A. [Witness complies].

25 Q. Thank you. All right. I'll -- thank you.

Page 3892

1 MR. DI FAZIO: And I seek to tender that map into evidence.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be P471.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

4 Q. I'll return to your exchange very briefly in a short while.

5 I just want to ask you about one or two matters concerning your

6 time in Srebrenica. Do you know a man named Enes Karic?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. During your time in captivity -- sorry, your time in Srebrenica,

9 did you see him?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Is he a friend of yours?

12 A. We knew each other as work colleagues. He used to work in Sase,

13 too. While we were in Srebrenica, he came to see us once.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. And ...

16 Q. Right. And was that a social call?

17 A. He himself said that he was working on the police force. He was

18 wearing a police uniform, and he must have come to see how we were doing

19 and if anybody was treating us badly.

20 Q. Did he tell you of the circumstances under which he came to be

21 visiting you, how it was that he got to the house to visit you in the

22 first place?

23 A. No, he didn't say anything about that. But he said that he was

24 working on the police force in Srebrenica, and you could tell by his

25 uniform that he was a policeman.

Page 3893

1 Q. Did he mention anything else to you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How long did he visit?

4 A. Not long.

5 Q. Was it easy for him to visit you as far as you're aware?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. I want to take you now to the exchange that we've just been

8 speaking about. Who informed you that you were to be exchanged?

9 A. Smajo Mandzic, nicknamed Mandza. He came that morning, not very

10 early in the morning. He said, You have two minutes to get ready. You

11 are going to be exchanged. I picked up my children. We left the house,

12 and we drove in his van to Srebrenica where we stopped outside the

13 building of the municipal government. There were a lot of people, and the

14 likelihood was high that all of them were prisoners. They had a paper in

15 their hands from which they read names, and out of that large group of

16 people, people came out one by one and got into the van. Around 20 --

17 Q. Fine. Just hold it there. I want to get a few more details. Who

18 held the list and read out the names; do you know?

19 A. I don't know that person.

20 Q. Were there men in uniform who were also armed in and around this

21 group?

22 A. Yes, yes. There were.

23 Q. Was the man who was reading from the list in camouflage uniform?

24 A. No, he wasn't.

25 Q. Was your name on the list?

Page 3894

1 A. Maybe. But I didn't hear it because I was sitting in the van all

2 the time. I never got out.

3 Q. Was Brano with you and your children?

4 A. Yes, he was.

5 Q. Did you see your mother-in-law?

6 A. She also got into the van eventually.

7 Q. What condition was she in when you saw her?

8 A. She had changed a lot. Her face seemed to have grown darker.

9 It's like she had aged in a short time and lost a lot of weight. She

10 looked awful.

11 Q. Were you taken in the van to the point of exchange?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who drove the van?

14 A. I can't remember whether it was Mandza or somebody else took over,

15 but he was also with us in the van.

16 Q. Mandza was also with you in the van?

17 A. Yes, he was with us in the van. And I think he was the one

18 responsible for the exchange because he was the one who handed us over to

19 Serb authorities.

20 Q. Were there any other men in camouflage uniform who were also armed

21 accompanying the group?

22 A. There were a few, not too many, though. A few, three or four,

23 they were armed and in uniform.

24 Q. Inside the van?

25 A. Inside the van, yeah.

Page 3895

1 Q. And did -- was the exchange relatively uneventful? You were

2 handed over and other people came walking in the opposite direction?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In addition, was there a corpse to be exchanged with your group?

5 A. Yes. The 20 of us were exchanged plus a dead body. And on the

6 other side there were dead bodies.

7 Q. Following the exchange, were you taken to a hospital and medically

8 examined?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did you discover that you had pieces of shrapnel in your body?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where? Where in your body?

13 A. The left side of my body, a centimetre from my heart and lungs, my

14 head, and one of my arms and one of my legs, all on the left side of my

15 body.

16 Q. And do you still carry pieces of that shrapnel in your body?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After the exchange did you see the boy Brano again?

19 A. No. Not right after, but I do see him now.

20 Q. I've just got a few more questions to put to you, if you don't

21 mind, and then perhaps we'll finish for the day at that point if it's

22 suitable. Thank you.

23 Did you ever receive any compensation for the damage that was

24 caused to your house?

25 A. Compensation?

Page 3896

1 Q. Yes, compensation. Any sort of compensation.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When was that?

4 A. Three years ago.

5 Q. What did it consist of?

6 A. Construction material was donated, so we built a new house.

7 Q. Do you have any idea, any good idea, who it was who donated that

8 material?

9 A. I am not entirely sure. Some organisation or other. I can't be

10 more specific. I think the name was Mercy Corps or something like that.

11 It was a donation of construction material for the house.

12 Q. And have you since then been able to reconstruct a house and a

13 home for yourself back in Bjelovac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

18 I think we can stop here. There's no point in starting now, also

19 because the witness, I notice, is -- needs a rest. So we are still where

20 we are. Tomorrow you think you can finish in about two hours?

21 MR. JONES: Yes, two and a half hours.


23 So, Madam, we are finished for today. Now you will be escorted

24 back to your hotel and you will return tomorrow morning. We will

25 certainly finish with your testimony tomorrow morning, and you will be

Page 3897

1 then able to return back home. Take a good rest, and tomorrow we should

2 be in the courtroom for less time that you were today. I thank you so

3 much.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's it. We continue tomorrow morning. We

6 adjourn until tomorrow morning. Thank you.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

9 January, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.