Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4064

1 Tuesday, 25 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

7 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Registrar, and good morning to you.

9 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

11 distinguished gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. You may sit down.

13 Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and good morning to the

15 members of the Defence team. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the

16 Prosecution, together with co-counsel, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case

17 manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben. Good morning to you and

19 your team.

20 Appearances for Naser Oric.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

22 morning to the gentlemen from the OTP. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and

23 together with Mr. John Jones we represent the Defence for Mr. Naser Oric.

24 We have our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case manager,

25 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 4065

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

2 ask your teams.

3 Any preliminaries? I notice -- yes, Ms. Richardson.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Good morning, Your Honour. Just one matter. I

5 wanted to state for the record that we presented, or turned over some

6 medical records that will be using today to the Defence last evening. We

7 turned them over as soon as we received English translation.

8 And with respect to another matter, yesterday, as the witness

9 testified, we -- the Court permitted him to use a list that he prepared,

10 and I think at this point we need to put an exhibit number to it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, we would like an exhibit number.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll do that first and foremost.

14 That will be Exhibit 474?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be Exhibit 475.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be Exhibit 475.

17 Just for your information, before we rose, I asked the registrar

18 to liaise with everyone to see how we could make adjustments to today's

19 timetable, and the suggestion is, and I have been told that it meets with

20 the approval of everyone, more or less, the suggestion is that we have a

21 break at 11.00, and that will be a 30-minute break, then we start again at

22 11.30, and we go on until 1.00, maximum quarter past one, depending on

23 where we are at the time. It will, of course, not curtail on the time you

24 need with this witness for your cross-examination. So if need be, we'll

25 go on until tomorrow. All right?

Page 4066

1 Do you have any reservations, any comments, on this proposed

2 schedule? No, all right. We can work on it, in other words.

3 [The witness entered court]


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ivanovic, good morning to you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. I hope you had a good rest yesterday

9 afternoon and last night. We will be proceeding with the questions today,

10 with the examination-in-chief, to be followed later on today by the

11 cross-examination. I am not that sure that we will finish today.

12 But if we don't finish today, we will certainly finish tomorrow.

13 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

14 You're still testifying under oath. I mean, I need hardly remind

15 you of that.

16 Examined by Ms. Richardson: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Yesterday, when we ended the court session yesterday, you

23 testified that you had visited -- you were taken for questioning before a

24 man who appeared to you to be a soldier, and that you were escorted by two

25 soldiers. I would like to ask you at this point: Who did you believe

Page 4067

1 this man to be?

2 A. At that time I thought it was -- this man was a judge, because I

3 was escorted to this man by two soldiers and he was interrogating me.

4 First of all, he asked me whether or not I knew a man by the name of

5 Leskovac, and I still say, as I did then, that I do not know these men

6 because I spent a lot of my time working in Belgrade and abroad and many

7 people were unfamiliar to me, including some of my neighbours. I, for

8 instance, didn't know their names. And, indeed, this was true for the men

9 he inquired after.

10 Q. Did he tell you he was a judge?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And after seeing this man, were you and the other prisoners

13 beaten?

14 A. Yes, we were. I've already said that here in the courtroom, that

15 while he was interrogating me, he said that he was going to skin me and

16 put salt in my wounds. And upon my return to the cell, the beatings

17 resumed as before, with metal rods, with rifle butts, wooden staffs, bats,

18 and so on.

19 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the area of your testimony

20 where you stated that there were prisoners brought in from Cerska.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And those prisoners were Branko Sekulic, Jakov Djukic, Dragan

23 Ilic, and Rade Pejic. There was also a female called Andza; is that

24 correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 4068

1 Q. All right. Did you have an opportunity to speak with these

2 prisoners when they were brought in?

3 A. I did not have much occasion to talk to these prisoners. It was

4 only in those intervals when we were conscious, and this usually happened

5 in the early morning hours. And the person who could speak most of the

6 time was Ratko Nikolic, because he was awake, and then he would ask others

7 like, for instance, "Ilija, are you alive," along those lines.

8 Q. All right. Did the prisoners from Cerska appear to have been

9 beaten prior to arriving at the national defence building in Srebrenica?

10 A. These prisoners were telling us what had happened to them, and I

11 learnt of this later on at the hospital, that they had been beaten, that

12 they slept -- they had slept in one of the barns, and then they would

13 bring them acorns to eat. He said that at the time that they wished many

14 times to simply die. They had also apparently tried to bake the soles of

15 the shoes on a makeshift stove because they really had nothing else to

16 eat.

17 According to their story, a woman who was from the area would

18 bring them plums, and this would constitute the greatest of joys for them.

19 She was consoling them, she was a balm to their soul, so to speak.

20 Q. After they arrived at Srebrenica and were put into the cell with

21 you and the others, did they -- were they beaten on a daily basis, as

22 yourself and the other prisoners?

23 A. Yes, that's correct. Upon their arrival to the cell, the

24 mistreatment and beatings resumed, just as I've described earlier on, but

25 I can repeat, with rods, bats, rifle butts. What I found hardest to bear

Page 4069

1 was that when this Stanko, called Cane, had to go out to the toilet, he,

2 unaware of whether these people were around, he was basically unaware of

3 anyone around him. He apparently set out and then thought he was going

4 home. The soldiers who were there, around, would then beat him. He was a

5 disabled man; his hand and his legs were disabled. And they would target

6 those limbs exactly, and would beat him with whatever they had.

7 Q. Do you recall an incident, or more than one incident, with respect

8 to the other prisoner, Rade Pejic?

9 A. As for Rade Pejic, I can say the following, I don't know if I've

10 already said this: This was in the reception room when Dzemo Tihic

11 approached him and set his beard on fire. First, actually, he said, "Look

12 at this Chetnik, he doesn't want to shave off his beard." And the man

13 retorted, "How can I shave myself? I have nothing to shave myself with."

14 And then this Dzemo Tihic set his beard on fire.

15 Q. What happened after?

16 A. Afterwards, one of the soldiers - at the time the beard was still

17 sizzling - this other man said, "What will that other man say about this?"

18 And he tried to put out the fire. However, the victim himself didn't dare

19 to put the fire out, because whenever we winced or shirked as they were

20 beating us, then they would just start beating us more and say, "Look,

21 he's trying to put up resistance."

22 Q. And this Tihic, was he a soldier or was he a guard? Or how was he

23 dressed?

24 A. Let me just finish this story about Rade Pejic. After they had

25 set this man's beard on fire, they forced us to lie down on the floor,

Page 4070

1 beat us, and that was when they broke my cheekbone. And this was the

2 first time that they broke my nose. Rade Pejic -- that is, the soldier

3 who was also in this room, wanted to push Rade's head into this makeshift

4 stove that was there. Luckily, the other soldier that was there prevented

5 him from doing so. And he called him names and told him again, "What will

6 he" - with a capital "H" - "say if he hears of this?"

7 Q. Did you know who "he" was, who that reference was to?

8 A. Yes, that's right. Dzemo Tihic. And I know him well because I

9 would always pass by his house when I was walking through my village that

10 I grew up in. He wasn't the only one to beat us. There were several

11 other soldiers. Whoever wanted to could beat us. But it's very difficult

12 for me to recall. It was dark. And it was him that I knew.

13 Q. And how was he, Tihic, dressed? Was he in uniform or civilian

14 clothing?

15 A. You mean Pejic? I didn't understand.

16 Q. No, the person who -- I'll repeat the question. The person who

17 set fire to Pejic's beard, to Rade Pejic's beard.

18 A. This person was wearing a camouflage uniform. And I repeat: This

19 was the man that I knew well, unlike the others.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: There is something that I am unable to follow.

21 Let's go back to page 6, line 23, when he starts -- line 21. You asked

22 him: "And this Tihic, was he a soldier or was he a guard? Or how was he

23 dressed?" And then he answers: "Let me just finish the story about Rade

24 Pejic. After they had set this man's beard on fire, they forced us to lie

25 down on the floor, beat us, and that was when they broke my cheekbone.

Page 4071

1 And this was the first time when they broke my nose. Rade Pejic - that

2 is, the soldier - was also in this room and wanted to push Rade's head

3 into the makeshift stove. That was -- luckily, the other soldier that was

4 there prevented him from doing so. And he called him names and told him,

5 'what will he' - with a capital 'H' - 'say if he hears of this.'"

6 And then you put the question: "Did you know who he was, who that

7 reference was to?" And his answer is: "Yes, that's right. Dzemo Tihic.

8 And I know him well, because I would always pass by his house when I was

9 walking through my village that I grew up in. He wasn't the only one to

10 beat us. There were --" it doesn't make sense.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can go back. I actually intended

12 to do that, to clear that up.

13 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, when you testified that a soldier put out -- a

14 soldier managed to -- let me rephrase. You mentioned that the person you

15 knew before -- that you knew before, Dzemo Tihic, set fire to Rade's

16 beard; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. And then a soldier, Rade -- excuse me, someone else, a soldier,

19 managed to put out the fire that was set to Rade's beard; correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And now, you also mentioned that there was an incident with the

22 furnace where this same person that you knew from before, Tihic, Dzemo

23 Tihic, attempted to put Rade's head into a furnace.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then I think you mentioned it was someone else there who

Page 4072

1 prevented or took out Rade's head from the furnace.

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. And you testified that someone said, I believe you said the person

4 who pulled out Rade's head, said "What would he say?"

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Who was the "he" that this person made reference to?

7 A. He was also a soldier.

8 Q. All right. But you said "he," "what would he say?" Who was "he"?

9 Who did you think that they were referring to? Anyone else?

10 A. Well, I don't know. I remember that they kept using this term

11 "he," "the boss," or "Naser." At that particular point I didn't know who

12 he was referring to.

13 Q. All right. Now, with respect to the incident where Rade's beard

14 was set on fire and his head was put in the furnace, did this happen on

15 two separate occasions or did this happen on one occasion?

16 A. On one occasion. It was on that same night, when we were taken

17 out to the reception room.

18 Q. Did there come a time that any of the prisoners died during the

19 time that you were held in the national defence building?

20 A. In the All People's Defence building, and this is stated in the

21 report that I made, Kojo, nicknamed Kosta -- rather, Kosta, nicknamed

22 Kojo, was the first one to die. Apparently he was from Bratunac. And he

23 died as a result of severe beatings.

24 That same night, it was perhaps in the early morning hours,

25 soldiers came with a military blanket, and they wrote something down own a

Page 4073

1 piece of paper - I couldn't say what they wrote down - put this piece of

2 paper in his pocket and took him away.

3 Q. Had he been beaten that day, before he died; do you know?

4 A. This happened on a regular basis. There's no need to keep

5 repeating this. Whenever anybody willed to beat someone, they would.

6 Q. When did you first become aware that Kosta had died?

7 A. One morning, before they started beating us again, Ratko Nikolic

8 yelled, "Ilija, Ilija." I was still half asleep, but I yelled back. "Do

9 you know that Kosta has died?" I was stunned by this. And then after all

10 of this, those people who brought him in in the first place came and took

11 him away.

12 Q. Did any of those prisoners inform the guards or anyone else that

13 Kosta had died?

14 A. No. As far as I remember, it was in the morning, I don't remember

15 the exact time. They came in through the prisoners' door. There were two

16 persons. They wrote something down on a slip of paper, placed it on the

17 cell, and left.

18 Q. And this Kosta that you're referring to, is that Kostadin

19 Popovic?

20 A. Yes, Kosta, Kojo, that's how I remember him, and that's all I know

21 about him. And I'm trying to keep it that way in my mind. I have no

22 particular desire to remember his last name or anything else about him.

23 Q. Did there come a time that someone else, one of the other

24 prisoners, died?

25 A. Yes. I can't give you the exact time - it was, perhaps, a day or

Page 4074

1 two later - Mico from Sase died. The next day, probably the next day, he

2 was beaten by a young man in the chest. He probably began bleeding inside

3 his lungs when he was beaten like that. But a while after he started

4 talking to himself. "Dragan, my son, bring me water."

5 Q. And when did he die? How soon after he started speaking --

6 talking to himself?

7 A. I talked about that. I can't remember exactly what I said at the

8 time. I simply wasn't able to remember, even then. It was perhaps two

9 days later, that's if memory serves.

10 Q. All right. And when did you first become aware that he had died?

11 A. It was the same thing throughout. Ratko was the most conscious

12 one of us, and he used to say things. It was the same thing throughout,

13 all over again. The same two people came. They would write something

14 down on a slip of paper and put it on the blanket. And then where they

15 took the blanket, I have no idea.

16 Q. And do you know what they wrote on the piece of paper?

17 A. No. No, I have no idea. I wasn't able to see that.

18 Q. All right. You mentioned -- you testified yesterday that Svetlana

19 Trifunovic was at the prison. Did you see any other Serb children at the

20 prison while you were held there?

21 A. Yes. I saw Branko. Branko would also sometimes appear at the

22 same door. I heard him playing up and down the corridor. I have no idea

23 who his playmates were. I never heard that they were beating him.

24 Branko, on the other hand, never came into our cell to spit at us, like

25 Svetlana used to.

Page 4075

1 Q. Did there come a time when men and women were exchanged, men and

2 women prisoners, that is?

3 A. Yes. After a certain time, it was halfway through my stay there,

4 the women were exchanged. Mile Trifunovic was exchanged along with them,

5 as well as Cane and Miloje.

6 Q. Do you recall if Branko was also exchanged?

7 A. Branko? Yes, yes, most probably. He was in our prison, but I

8 assumed that he had also left and joined the women on the way out.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: At this time, Your Honour, I would like to have

10 the clip of Prosecution Exhibit -- I believe it's 446.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's already on Sanction.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, please turn your attention to the screen in front of

14 you, and we will play this clip for you. And as we're going through the

15 clip, please let us know if there is anything that you recognise in the

16 clip.

17 [Videotape played]

18 A. Yes, I think this is the police station, what I just saw in the

19 previous frame. This is the road leading from the police station to the

20 town hall. This is the police station, as far as I can tell. The

21 entrance. To the right you can see the room in which I was lying. You

22 take this corridor. I need to have a good look, I need to remember. It

23 was nighttime, after all, at the time, and I need to remember the

24 corridor. This is outside -- this is just inside the entrance, and

25 outside the reception room, this is a flight of stairs leading up to the

Page 4076

1 first floor. At the far end of this corridor, you see a door leading to

2 the cell in which I was detained. Right, these are the bars that I spoke

3 about, a radiator and a window. Well, you can see inside the cell. This

4 was not there at the time. I'm not sure when this footage was taken.

5 This is the corridor. It's very difficult for me to tell exactly, if I

6 only look at this footage of the room itself. When I was brought in, it

7 was nighttime, and I was less alive than dead, in a manner of speaking.


9 Q. All right. But does the -- I understand that you stated that

10 something -- the items that you saw in the room, in the cell, was not

11 present. Does this footage seem familiar to you in that the structure

12 itself --

13 A. No.

14 Q. Does the structure, the rooms and its location, appear

15 familiar?

16 A. Yes, to the extent that I remember. It was nighttime, after all,

17 when I was brought in. I did draw that sketch for you, and I think the

18 sketch reflects what I remember.

19 Q. All right. I'd ask that you continue.

20 [Videotape played]


22 Q. And again, as it's playing, let us know if there is anything that

23 seems familiar to you. Here's another clip.

24 [Videotape played]

25 A. This is the street leading to the town hall and the department

Page 4077

1 store. This is where my clothes were taken away. If you can just veer

2 slightly to the left.


4 Q. Unfortunately, we're sort of confined to this particular video.

5 But if you see a building that you recognise, please let us know.

6 A. Here we are. Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about, where

7 this person is standing, outside that door, or thereabouts. I think this

8 is the building where my clothes were taken away, my boots, my watch.

9 Q. Okay. Is it the building to your right or to your left that

10 you're referring to?

11 A. The one on the left. This man, who is facing me, or rather the

12 police station, is standing just outside.

13 Q. It appears to be a white building, from the video clip. All

14 right. If you can continue with the video.

15 A. Yes, that's it.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. There's another clip.

19 A. This is the town hall. I was taken to the town hall to see that

20 man who then interrogated me. This is an alleyway down which I was taken

21 to the cell. To the left you can see the court building. I believe my

22 description was actually quite accurate. Between the court and the town

23 hall, there was a flight of concrete steps.

24 Q. All right. Before we continue the clip, when you were

25 interrogated by the man at the town hall building, were you taken

Page 4078

1 with -- did this happen on the first floor, or were you taken upstairs

2 someplace?

3 A. I said this a number of times already, but I can't remember. I

4 know that that was where it happened. But whether we went up a flight of

5 stairs or not, I really don't.

6 Q. All right, that's fine. We'll let the video continue.

7 [Videotape played]

8 A. This is the court building. Again, we're going back to the same

9 alley between the court and the town hall, down which I was taken to my

10 cell. From here you can see the window of the room where they tried to

11 stop up the breakage in the glass pane to keep us from suffocating. To

12 the left is the entrance to the building. The entrance.


14 Q. We have another clip.

15 [Videotape played]

16 A. I think that's the one. These are probably some of the rooms

17 inside the building. I'm not very clear about this. You can't expect me

18 to identify a room if you have footage that was taken inside the room. If

19 you had gone successively from the entrance and then went on down the

20 corridor, perhaps I'd be better able to tell. Now, this is the room in

21 which I was. I recognise the pipes behind the table. Not this one, the

22 previous one. I really can't form a mental image now. Yes, yes, this

23 one, this room. That's where the arrow is pointing. This is probably the

24 room to which we were taken. It's difficult for me to say just by looking

25 at this. I was quite taken aback, and I was bleeding profusely. I was

Page 4079

1 not able to observe in detail. Again, the room straight down the

2 corridor, to the right there was a lavatory, and outside the lavatory was

3 a reception room into which I was taken. There were bars on the window of

4 that room. I think I always said I didn't know whether there were two or

5 three windows. I didn't keep track at the time.

6 What I see in the footage is certainly inside that building, but

7 this is not the way I remember it. And the lavatory is all messed up, and

8 this is not the way I remember it, if indeed this is the lavatory. The

9 bench and the beds were not there. You can see the valves that I told you

10 about, you can see them in this piece of footage. There was a cable that

11 I pulled out of my underwear and placed under the linoleum in case they

12 tried to cut me up so I could hang myself. But none of this was actually

13 inside the room, so it's very difficult for me to recognise. But I do

14 hope that I was able to notice some things. There were no beds inside the

15 room by any means, that's for sure, or the blankets. If we'd had this

16 back then, it would have seemed more like a hotel, probably. These are

17 the windows with bars that I told you about through which the pipe of a

18 makeshift stove was leaving the room. These two pipes are my reference

19 points, because I used them as reference points every time I told this

20 story.

21 This wasn't like that. There's a cable that was torn out of the

22 wall. This is not something I noticed at the time. It's very difficult

23 for me to describe everything the way I did on my own piece of paper.

24 If I look at it like this, this looks demolished. I have no idea

25 when this footage was taken. It's very difficult for me to tell.

Page 4080


2 Q. All right. So from your testimony, it appears that the video

3 footage itself reflects a structure that is -- that appears to be damaged,

4 or at the time you were held prisoner, the building itself was in a better

5 condition. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it was in a better condition. I explained about the access

7 to that building and where I was inside the building. But if you look at

8 the room, I'm absolutely certain anyone would be hard put to explain,

9 especially the way I see it here in this frame. I told you that the

10 building had some sort of a concrete floor or linoleum on which we slept.

11 There was a table with two or three chairs in that room and a stove, which

12 probably kept us from dying on account of the smoke.

13 Q. So other than the structural damage that you see in the video that

14 was not there at the time, the layout of the building itself appears

15 familiar to you, as it did when you were held prisoner?

16 A. Yes, that's true. Yes. Yes, that's what I said, isn't it? But

17 if you show me the room itself, it's difficult for me to remember. I do

18 recognise the windows clearly, though. There were no panes on the

19 windows.

20 [Videotape played]

21 A. What it says here, the staff, I didn't see that at the time. But

22 here you have all the rooms, I see them all in front of me now. The

23 reception room, the lavatory, all the way down to our cell. That should

24 be sufficient. That would be the room, the way I see it now. There were

25 no beds. We were in a circle to the right. And then under these pipes

Page 4081

1 there was a table with three chairs. Mico Trifunovic was seated in one of

2 these.


4 Q. And this is the room where you were beaten daily?

5 A. Yes. It's difficult for me. Again, I'm telling you, I'm not sure

6 if it was like this, or maybe we were just beaten so badly. I can explain

7 to you exactly which way I got in, at least I remember that well, when I

8 was being brought back from the town hall. And I remember that quite

9 clearly.

10 The room in which the women were kept is another thing that I

11 remember. Two soldiers forced me and Ratko Nikolic to go and fetch some

12 firewood. The room next to ours was empty, and the next room on the left

13 was their room.

14 If you -- well, I think I could tell you on the way out, down the

15 corridor, I can tell you where the door was, but I was not even allowed to

16 have a look, to look around and see if anyone was there.

17 Q. All right. That's fine. This video is almost completed. Do you

18 recognise this image?

19 A. No, I don't. On the way out, I remember that one door. And

20 because we couldn't just look; you walked with your head down. I've

21 explained everything that I can.

22 Yes. That's what the building looks like, the building towards

23 which I was walking between the court and the town hall. This very

24 window, the one that is singed, I think that is where the stove was.

25 That's the entrance. This is the open space outside the building in which

Page 4082

1 I was kept. That's the court building.

2 Q. All right. We can complete the video clip at this point.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, next the Prosecution would like to

4 show photographs to the witness, and I believe they were previously

5 tendered. And that is Prosecution Exhibit 419.

6 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, we have some images before you on the screen. If

7 you would take a look, and tell us if you can identify what you see before

8 you. If you can't, that's fine. Does this image look familiar to you?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Richardson. For the record, what

10 the witness is being shown is a photograph with ERN 03617694.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 MR. JONES: That's not P419, at least not according to my records.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not -- I do have them here. It is 419? Yes,

14 the first photo of 419.

15 MR. JONES: For 419, I have ERN 03617712.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we check, registrar, please?

17 MR. JONES: It could be that it's one picture of that bundle.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it is part of a range, so it could

19 be that that's what Mr. Jones is referring to.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: They were filed in more than one batch, Mr. Jones,

21 and this is probably what is --

22 MR. JONES: We have it now. That's fine.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But in my records at least, and I invite

24 Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser to check as well, in my records, this is

25 as it is, in other words, P419, and this is the first photo in the

Page 4083

1 series. And it does, indeed, have the ERN that I mentioned or I referred

2 to earlier, for the record. All right? Shall we proceed? Okay, thank

3 you.

4 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You can put the question again to the witness,

7 please.


9 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, the image before you on the screen, do you recognise

10 where that location and what that structure --

11 A. As I see it now, I can't really say. I can't find my bearings

12 here. As I've already told you, I haven't been to Srebrenica that often

13 to be able to recognise every single building.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. If you don't recognise it, you don't

15 recognise it.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain things if I see them

17 from a bit far off. But if I see a room with four walls, it's not really

18 possible for me to recognise the location. But I think I've explained it

19 quite well.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to the next photo.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine.

22 Q. Please look at the next photograph. If you can't recognise it,

23 that's fine, we'll move on.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness is now being shown photo

25 bearing ERN 03617696.

Page 4084

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 A. I can't say, at least judging by what I can see here. I just

3 see the front of the building with the one or two windows, so I can't

4 really ...

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Next photo.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's ERN 03617698.

7 A. This might be the cell that I was in. But just by seeing a

8 radiator and this broken sink, I'm not sure.


10 Q. And this photograph is ERN 03617700.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. And the next photograph is ERN 03617702. Do you recognise that

13 image?

14 A. This reminds me of the room that the women were held in.

15 Q. All right. 03617704.

16 A. This is the room I was held in. I've said this already. I

17 remember these valves very well, that there was -- to the right there was

18 the lavatory and the reception room.

19 Q. Okay. The next photograph, 03617706.

20 A. I wouldn't know.

21 Q. 03617708.

22 A. This is the front entrance to the building, as far as I can see,

23 and this is where you can see the cell that we were in.

24 Q. 03617710.

25 A. This is also the lobby, just after the entrance-way. This is the

Page 4085

1 patch of the road between the court building and the cell we were in.

2 Q. ERN number 03617712. And the next photograph is 03617714.

3 A. Here you can see the corner of the building of the SUP and the

4 municipality building, or rather, no, no, you can see the court, and then

5 just in front of the court building, there's the municipality building.

6 Q. And the next photograph, 03617716.

7 A. If you're interested in the building on the right-hand side,

8 that's the municipality building.

9 Q. Okay. And this photograph, 03617718.

10 A. This is the corridor leading to the cell in the SUP, if I'm not

11 mistaken.

12 Q. And 03617720.

13 A. This is the entrance to the police station.

14 Q. 03617722.

15 A. At the end of this corridor, to the right there is the cell that I

16 was held in at the S-U-P, SUP.

17 Q. 03617724.

18 A. That's the SUP building.

19 Q. And 03617726.

20 A. I think this is the SUP building as well.

21 Q. 03617728. This is the last photograph.

22 A. I wouldn't know.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.

24 Did there come a time that you were removed from the national

25 defence building, where you were held, and taken to the hospital?

Page 4086

1 A. Yes. I was taken to the hospital just prior to my exchange, and

2 as far as I remember, that was the only time I had been at the hospital.

3 I don't know how long I was kept there, perhaps for some five, six days,

4 or maybe even longer.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. I was in very bad shape.

7 Q. Were -- well, let's just go back for a moment. Do you remember

8 how -- or who took you from the prison to the hospital?

9 A. As far as I remember, there was Mandza and maybe two more

10 soldiers, or maybe even more, on my way from the prison to the hospital.

11 But I did not keep track of that, really. As they -- as we left the

12 prison, although I don't remember this part very well, I believe we passed

13 that stretch between the court and the municipality buildings.

14 Q. Were you the only prisoner taken to the hospital?

15 A. No. I was taken to the hospital together with Branko Sekulic and

16 Rade Pejic. Upon our arrival there, we found Milomir Djukic.

17 Q. And the other prisoners remained in the prison, as far as you

18 know?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And the other prisoners who remained were Jakov Djukic?

21 A. Djukic.

22 Q. And do you know if Dragan Ilic remained as well?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did Ratko Nikolic remain?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 4087

1 Q. And do you know which hospital you were taken to? Do you know the

2 name of the hospital?

3 A. I don't. I only know that at one point we were at the hospital,

4 and it was only later on that I learnt that we were on the second floor.

5 The window of that particular room faced the road, according to what I

6 knew at the time. And Milomir Djukic was telling me the same. The post

7 office was situated in that street.

8 Q. Do you recall how you were transported to the hospital? Did you

9 walk or were you taken in a vehicle; do you remember?

10 A. I've mentioned this several times already. I can't really

11 remember whether we went on foot or whether they secured some sort of a

12 truck to take us over there. I only remember that, as we arrived at the

13 hospital, that there was a staircase there and that the soldiers assisted

14 me to reach the room.

15 Q. What was the physical condition of yourself and the other

16 prisoners who were with you?

17 A. We were in a very bad condition. We could hardly move. I think

18 the other two also had to be assisted to reach the hospital room we were

19 staying in.

20 Q. And were you all put in the same room with Djukic?

21 A. Yes, we were all staying together. But we were not being beaten

22 there, we were not mistreated, we were not locked.

23 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to Milomir Djukic, this is the same

24 person who had previously been -- who had been with you in the cell

25 prior -- the one who gave you the list, you testified to --

Page 4088

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to dwell on this, Ms. Richardson. We

2 heard it all yesterday.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move

4 on.

5 Q. Now, were you all put in the same room, yourself and the other

6 prisoners?

7 A. Yes, we were. I've already said that.

8 Q. Did you receive treatment, medical treatment?

9 A. As I put it down in my report, I was very grateful for that. I

10 was given some injections, pills, and this probably helped me to stay

11 alive and live to see my exchange.

12 Q. And were the other prisoners, as far as you could see, including

13 Djukic, were they treated medically as well?

14 A. Yes, the others were also treated, including Djukic. What sort of

15 a treatment that was, I can't tell. But they paid more attention to

16 Djukic than to us, the nurses there. They would bring him newspapers, and

17 he was very grateful for that.

18 Q. And was this room that you were in kept locked, and was there a

19 guard?

20 A. Yes, the room was locked, but I'm not sure whether there was a

21 guard or not. It was only later on, while I was still there, that I found

22 out that only nurses were authorised to allow people into the room. And

23 even when these people got into the room, they never beat us or anything.

24 They would just ask us some questions. Probably they were not allowed to

25 beat us.

Page 4089

1 Q. And when you say "these people," who are you referring to? Did

2 you know them?

3 A. No. Or, rather, I knew two of them. One of them was Enis Odzic,

4 I believe, was his family name. But I know his name is Enis. I knew him

5 well. And he would come often and tell me, "Ilija, do you want me to

6 bring any food, but bear in mind that the only thing I can bring you is

7 the soup that my wife has cooked for us. I don't have anything else." At

8 one point he also asked me if I knew the man who had come with him, and I

9 said that I didn't, although I did, actually.

10 Q. All right. Where did you know this man that was with him?

11 A. If I may be allowed to finish. He told me, "How come you don't

12 know him? He's also a neighbour of ours," my friend told me. And then

13 this man started explaining to me, "I was in that same truck you were

14 brought here in, and I could have killed you there or beaten you." I

15 said, "Thank you," but I thought to myself, I know very well what sort of

16 a man you are. You were slapping me in the face and spitting at me, but

17 you just won't admit it here.

18 Q. Were these men, Enis, and the other men, were they dressed in

19 civilian or military clothing?

20 A. The one who was beating me in the truck wore a military uniform,

21 whereas Enis, and I remember it well, was in civilian clothes that I used

22 to see him in even before the war.

23 Q. All right. Were you -- I'll ask another question. Withdrawn.

24 Did there come a time when you left the hospital or were escorted

25 out of the hospital?

Page 4090

1 A. Yes. At some point Mandza entered the room. I only found out

2 that his name was Mandza later on, and I learnt that from hearing his

3 soldiers addressing him by this name. And he told us, "Chetniks, you're

4 going to be exchanged." Never for a moment did I actually believe that

5 this was going to be an exchange. I thought that they were just going to

6 kill us. However, it turned out to be true. They actually took us out of

7 the hospital. We boarded a truck, and they took us in the direction of

8 Kragljevode for an exchange.

9 But we stopped on our way between the court and the municipality

10 buildings, and that's where they picked up Ratko. Ratko was seated back

11 in the -- in the back of the truck, and I was in the cabin, together with

12 Ahmo Tihic.

13 Q. Did the other prisoners remain in the hospital, as far as you

14 know?

15 A. Yes, others remained in the hospital and in the cell, at least

16 that's what Ratko told me.

17 Q. And was there anyone else in the truck besides Ratko Nikolic,

18 with -- and I believe you said Mandza was also there, and Tihic?

19 A. Yes. I remember this not quite clearly, but there was a truck.

20 And up front there was the driver, Zulfo, Mandza, and another person in

21 Skelani, who used to work in the hotel there. And then there was Ahmo, I

22 was seated next to Ahmo, and two soldiers next to me, whereas in the back

23 of the truck, there was Ratko with the soldiers.

24 Q. And these soldiers were armed?

25 A. Yes, they were armed.

Page 4091

1 Q. And did you notice --

2 A. Although I wasn't able to see that they were armed at that point,

3 I realised this. As we were leaving the truck in Jadar, together with

4 Zulfo, they were all wearing camouflage and white uniforms.

5 Q. Did you -- were you able to see if they had radios?

6 A. Yes, of course they did. Unfortunately, they had good weapons,

7 they had the radios. And I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly where we

8 were heading. I know that it was near Jadar, in the direction of

9 Kragljevode.

10 Q. And was the exchange successful? Were you exchanged that day?

11 A. There is one other thing that I would like to say. I'm not sure

12 whether this took place during my first or the second exchange. The truck

13 was unable to reach Kragljevode, so it stopped at some point. And we were

14 being assisted by soldiers again to move. And there was this young boy

15 from Sljivica, I believe. He was travelling with his father to this

16 village. And he told his father, "Daddy, daddy, there was a Chetnik's

17 head stuck on a pail here," and his father told him, "You don't know what

18 you're talking about." And we just continued moving towards Kragljevode.

19 Q. And did you reach Kragljevode? And if so, did anything happen

20 when you got there?

21 A. Yes, we reached Kragljevode. We stayed in that area that was

22 closer to Srebrenica, and they went off to negotiate the exchange. They

23 said, "We are going to discuss it with the Chetniks." They moved further

24 away from us. They crossed this hill. I don't know what the reason for

25 that was. We stayed over there, and soldiers would approach us to

Page 4092

1 mistreat us. One of them would go and fetch a knife to butcher us;

2 another one said, "Let's take them to the post office for a heating up";

3 another one went to fetch an axe. So they were just simply there

4 mistreating us, while we were waiting for the others to return.

5 These were all -- some of those were just threats, but for some of

6 those, they actually went and fetched a chain that was placed beneath my

7 chin, and then they would pull by the chain, lifting me. I was unable to

8 move; I was in a very bad condition at the time. So this man was pulling

9 the chain, and then as he pulled away energetically, he tore the skin on

10 my neck -- on my chin.

11 This exchange fell through. We were returned to the same hospital

12 room that we were in before.

13 Q. And did there come a time that you left or you were -- someone

14 else -- someone came to get you again to take you to another exchange

15 attempt?

16 A. Mandza was among those who returned us to the hospital. He seemed

17 to be a leader of a sort, although I don't know what his position was. So

18 he and at least two other soldiers returned us back to the hospital. And

19 then after a while - I'm not really sure how much time elapsed - the

20 second exchange took place. If I may go on with my story, telling you

21 about the second exchange.

22 Q. Yes, please tell us what occurred during that second exchange.

23 And who was in the truck with you, if you recall?

24 A. The second exchange took place quite soon, whether perhaps a day

25 or two later. Mandza came to our room again and said, "Chetniks, you're

Page 4093

1 going for an exchange again." Basically, it was all happening the same

2 way as it had for the first time. The only difference was that, as we

3 were moving in the direction of Jadar, not far from Srebrenica, the truck

4 pulled up and the driver said, "We can't go on from here because we have

5 to put the chains on." Zulfo Tursun, who was smiling, he hugged the other

6 men and said, "Yes, yes, let's slaughter these Chetnik shits." Ahmo

7 Tihic, however, opposed this. Ahmo said, "Zulfo, I would be the only one

8 entitled to say anything about this because Ilija was a neighbour of

9 mine." And Zulfo was not really pleased with hearing Ahmo said this and

10 said, "Ah, Ahmo is against this."

11 And then this silence set in. They put the chains on. We resumed

12 our journey, reached Jadar. Zulfo dismounted the truck together with his

13 soldiers, and we continued on to Kragljevode.

14 Let me just add this: As we were heading towards Jadar, Ahmo

15 fetched a bag of tobacco from his pocket and he would distribute the

16 tobacco to whoever he wanted and as much as he wanted. But he didn't give

17 any tobacco either to Zulfo or the driver. He asked me first whether I

18 would like to have a smoke. I refused. And then he gave some tobacco to

19 the two soldiers, but I can't remember whether he gave any to Mandza.

20 Q. All right. And was this second attempt successful?

21 A. No, unfortunately not. Again, they left us at this mountain pass,

22 and they went further away to negotiate. At this point I believe Ahmo

23 said goodbye to me, but this was not to be. He returned from the

24 negotiations, and they told us, "What can we do? The Chetniks don't want

25 you."

Page 4094

1 Q. And were you also with Ratko Nikolic at this point? You were the

2 only two prisoners that they were trying to exchange?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. And do you know what you were being exchanged for?

5 A. I can tell you this, if you don't mind, when we go over to the

6 third exchange, or perhaps if you want me to say that now.

7 Q. Let's talk about that third exchange. When did that happen? You

8 were taken back to the hospital, and then there came a time that you

9 were -- that they came for you again. Could you tell us about that?

10 A. Yes. I'm not going over this again. Prior to this operation, we

11 were returned to the hospital. The conditions were the same, as was the

12 treatment. It happened soon after, a day or two perhaps. This same man,

13 Mandza, came over to take us away. He picked me up at the hospital, they

14 got Ratko too, and we were on our way to Kragljevode. Once we arrived,

15 they went off to negotiate. Mandza was back at one point, and he said,

16 "We have made contact, and you Chetniks are to be exchanged."

17 He took us along from that place to a place near the hunting

18 lodge, a forest-keeper's house. There was some sort of a clearing there.

19 We stood there waiting for a while; they were probably a bit late. And at

20 one point, Bira yelled out, he had walked to that spot, leaving the truck

21 further away. They said that our people wanted to exchange those that

22 they had brought over. He said, "There is no way to go on by truck, if

23 there are any oxen around." There were two dead bodies and three people

24 who were still alive to be exchanged.

25 Soon after, one of these people from the opposite side came over

Page 4095

1 with some oxen. He was quite apprehensive. He said, "I won't let you use

2 my oxen." And it appeared that he wouldn't allow us to use them. At that

3 point another man said, "Why the why are you afraid? There are five or

4 six of. Come on, let's load those people and get back." And Bira got the

5 leads, the chains that were attached to the oxen, and the oxen were

6 pulling a cart. On the cart there was a coffin. They went as far as the

7 truck and they loaded two dead bodies and two people who were still alive

8 onto the cart.

9 Having done that and reached us, they exchanged greetings. I

10 remember clearly that Bira gave Mandza some sort of a box, or a carton of

11 Drina cigarettes. They said their good-byes, and we headed back for the

12 truck while they headed back to Srebrenica.

13 While moving back to the exchange, where the truck was, halfway

14 down the path, in a pine wood, suddenly there was a burst of gunfire.

15 This was some sort of a heavy weapon, a Browning or something like that.

16 It was strafing the trees. But the bullets were flying over our heads.

17 They were shooting from down in the valley, probably just trying to

18 intimidate us. I'm not sure what their intention was. Eventually we

19 reached the truck and drove back to Jezero.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Ivanovic, you mentioned someone given cigarettes to

21 Mandza during the exchange. Was this person Branislav Gligic or someone

22 else?

23 A. No, I think I was quite clear. You have it in my description.

24 That person was never there, and you have others to prove this. Bira was

25 there and Cira too. That's what we used to call them.

Page 4096

1 Q. The dead bodies that were exchanged, do you know who these people

2 were? Were they soldiers or civilian bodies; do you know? Did anyone

3 say?

4 A. What I heard was that one of those dead bodies, the man had been

5 killed on the 16th when I was captured, and the man's name apparently was

6 Beli. Probably they wanted him in exchange for me.

7 Q. All right. I'd like to take you back just briefly to the point

8 where you were in the hospital. How long -- how many days did you spend

9 in the hospital before you were actually exchanged?

10 A. I did say quite clearly, didn't I, that I couldn't remember that.

11 Whether it was five or six days, thereabouts, I really can't say.

12 Q. And during the time that you were in the hospital, were you able

13 to see outside, to see events or anything that was occurring outside the

14 hospital?

15 A. No, I did say this a couple of times. I was not able to see

16 anything because I was not able to get out of bed. But once, Miloje

17 Djukic yelled at us, all of us who were there, not just myself, something

18 along the lines of, "Come over and have a look. Naser and his people are

19 getting ready to go hunting in Bratunac." He said that they were armed

20 with snipers, that they were wearing camouflage uniforms, and they had a

21 van that was painted in camouflage too, like their uniforms. Again, I

22 must say I was unable to get out of bed and have a look for myself.

23 Q. And do you know if Milomir Djukic knew who Naser Oric was? Did he

24 ever tell you if he knew Naser Oric before?

25 A. He told me that he knew him. Whether it was while he was there or

Page 4097

1 from before is something I can't say.

2 Q. All right.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, can I have a moment. Your Honour,

4 at this time we do have some medical documents that I'd like to have a

5 Prosecution's exhibit placed on them.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: They are not in the record yet, in other words.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]


11 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, I just have a question for you before you're given

12 the exhibits. Did you seek medical treatment after you were exchanged?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you recall when you were treated, and by whom?

15 A. I was given treatment at the hospital in Bajina Basta, and the

16 name of the nurse was Slavica Andzic.

17 Q. And did you receive any other treatment? Did you visit doctors,

18 or did you go to the hospital?

19 A. From that moment on, I went to my uncle's brother's house. His

20 name is Stanko. I spent between 10 and 15 days there. He had a heating

21 system in place. Doctors came over to his house, and a nurse. A doctor

22 from Belgrade came over who checked me and told me what exactly I should

23 eat on account of my great exhaustion.

24 Q. And are you still getting medical treatment today for any of those

25 injuries?

Page 4098

1 A. Yes, on a daily basis. I have some documents with me now that I

2 brought over from home. I used to have a lot more. I am -- I have a 40

3 per cent invalidity on account of the wounds that I received at the time

4 and the bones that were broken. A lot of things were taken from me, even

5 the original documents. I'm not even sure who took them away, without

6 even letting me know so that I could make copies.

7 Q. All right.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: At this time I'd like the usher to place

9 Prosecution Exhibit, ERN number 03639869.

10 Q. If you could take a look at the document, Mr. Ivanovic. Does this

11 represent one of the medical records for treatment to -- for the injuries

12 that you received during the time that you were held in Srebrenica?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. And this record, one of them is dated --

15 A. There are several of these. I have some from the military

16 hospital, from the military academy hospital, as well as from the Uzice

17 hospital.

18 Q. This particular document is just one of the many medical documents

19 you say you have as a result of where you were treated.

20 A. Yes. As I stated on a number of occasions, these are not only

21 doctors' findings and opinions as they were at the time. These problems

22 persist, and I still have to see doctors regularly because of the

23 difficulty that I'm experiencing. I have pain in my joints and in my

24 bones. I found it -- I find it very difficult to move. There's a

25 cracking sound in my knees, that sort of thing.

Page 4099

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are moving too slowly, Ms. Richardson.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we're getting there.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, there are two certificates.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: I was just going to get there.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Not one. One refers to 1993 and to 1996. Go

6 straight to the point, please, and whether --


8 Q. This medical record indicates that you were treated on March 1st,

9 1993; is that correct?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That he was examined.


12 Q. That you were examined.

13 A. Most probably. When I was released from captivity, if I may

14 explain, I asked my relative, my uncle's brother, not to send me to

15 hospital. I had no idea that I would make it, that I would survive at the

16 time. I thought I was meant to die, and I preferred to die at home. But

17 once I recovered a little, I started visiting hospitals. There is a long

18 list of doctors that I saw. For a long time I would go to a hospital

19 every once in a while, and I saw a great number of doctors at the time and

20 later.

21 Q. I want you, then, to go to the specifics of the report itself.

22 But there's another report that's attached where you were treated or where

23 you were seen by a doctor on the 23rd of April, 1996. Is this also part

24 of your medical documentation for injuries?

25 A. Yes, certainly. I'm not going through these now, because I know

Page 4100

1 that I haven't brought any documents that are not authentic. I received

2 treatment in 1993, 1994, 1995, and onwards. I have various medical

3 conditions that need to be treated. It's as simple as that.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think what we can do at this

5 point --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to the next document here, ERN 03639855,

7 in both languages.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: And it's dated the 2nd of April, 1993?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This is dated the 2nd of April, 1993.

10 Mr. Ivanovic, look at the first part of -- the first half of this

11 document. Do you recall being examined by a certain Dr. Ivan Zora, Zora

12 something, Zoradic, on or around about the 2nd of April, 1993. Just say

13 yes, not the details.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you look to the second part, to the bottom

16 part of this document, it says that you were also examined later on by

17 Dusan -- Dr. Dusan Jandric.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move to the next document which

20 bears ERN 03639856. Again, we're talking of the same Dr. Dusan Jandric.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And also of another doctor, Dr. Mirjana Markovic?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If I may be allowed to add

24 something in relation to these documents.


Page 4101

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to see a rheumatology

2 specialist and then I went to see other doctors for my other conditions,

3 if that's of any assistance to you. I'm not sure if I should give you all

4 the names.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you don't need to.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I want to say is that this is

7 just one specialist that I saw at the time.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to the next document, 03639858, usher,

9 please. And again, this refers to the 29th of December, 1993. You were

10 examined -- do you recall being examined roundabout that time by a certain

11 doctor called Radomir something?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move to the next document, which is ERN

16 03639865. And again it's divided into two parts. I invite you to have a

17 quick look at both parts.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that. I know all of

19 this by heart.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And you confirm that these are genuine documents,

21 and they refer to examinations, medical examinations and treatment that

22 you received?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can confirm that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If there are any remaining doubts,

Page 4102

1 I'm sure I'm in a position to disprove them all.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no remaining doubts.

3 Let's go through them now for the purpose of registration,

4 documenting.

5 The first document, 03639869, is being tendered and admitted as

6 Exhibit P?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, P476.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: P476. The next document, bearing ERN 03639855, will

9 be P477.

10 The next document, bearing ERN 03639856, will be P478.

11 The next document, bearing ERN 03639858, will be P479.

12 And the next document, bearing ERN 03639865, will be P480.

13 All right? Yes, Ms. Richardson.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Next I would move to a different area, of a series of exhibits. I

16 would ask the usher's assistance in showing the witness Prosecution

17 Exhibit 43, that's ERN -- the B/C/S 020304194, and I believe it's on

18 Sanction. One moment, Your Honour.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]


21 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, can you see before you what's before you on the

22 screen on Sanction? It's a document. It's --

23 MR. JONES: Your Honour, this document relates to Rade Pejic. I

24 don't see why this exhibit is being shown to this witness or how he's

25 supposed to help with it. It's not by him. I reiterate my objection that

Page 4103

1 I stated yesterday to showing this witness, of thirty exhibits which have

2 got nothing to do with him.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I still don't know what the question is, so I will

4 decide, or we will decide when we know what the question is. You may be

5 right, you may be wrong.

6 MR. JONES: We'll soon see.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think at this point it would be

9 easier for the witness to read from the ELMO and the hard copy. I don't

10 know if Mr. Ivanovic can see the screen properly.

11 Q. Are you able to read that screen properly, Mr. Ivanovic, or would

12 you prefer the hard copy?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I would suggest that he is given the original

14 in his own language, and that on the screen we see the English

15 translation, because that's what --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: We can arrange that, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that's what -- I'm sure it can, yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to read through this

19 document, or just the discharge letter?


21 Q. No, I have a series of questions for you with respect to this

22 document. If you take a look at it for a moment, this document states

23 that it's a hospital discharge, and I'm, of course, reading from the

24 English translation. It's in regards to Rade Pejic, and it states that he

25 was treated from the 21st of March, 1993 until 8 May 1993. And my

Page 4104












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4105

1 question to you is whether or not Rade Pejic was, in fact, with you during

2 the time that you were in the Srebrenica hospital?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he's mentioned that, he's told us that

4 already.

5 A. That's correct.


7 Q. I'll move to the next --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But to put that question which you had already put

9 in some 45 or one hour ago. Did you need to show him this document?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I was just trying to --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You asked him who was with him in the hospital and

12 he told you. He told you all the names, the three of them, and that when

13 they arrived there they found Milomir Djukic. So, I don't know why we

14 need this document to prove --

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm just simply trying to

16 corroborate with the document itself, since these were already tendered.

17 And indeed, I think this is -- I think it's a relative area, highly

18 probative, confirming what the document is and what it --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's absolutely superfluous, Ms. Richardson.

20 Let's move to more concrete matters, please.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. I'll have the witness shown

22 Prosecution Exhibit 44, in the B/C/S.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Ivanovic, this document is from --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: 4-4, 44.


Page 4106

1 Q. If you take a look at the document, it's from the Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina Srebrenica armed forces, it's dated the 28th of

3 January, from the -- to the Commission for Mediation with the enemy. And

4 it has your name on it. My question to you: With respect to the

5 information in this document that you were born on the 1st of February,

6 1961, in Cosici, the son of Radenko.

7 Now, with respect to the basic information, can you confirm that

8 you, in fact, did speak with individuals while you were imprisoned in

9 Srebrenica, and that you gave them information?

10 A. As far as I remember, this was not the case. I've not seen this

11 document, but I can go through it, if you like. I think the data was

12 copied from my identity card which was seized from me at the time same

13 time my wallet was.

14 Q. If we can go through this and if you can tell us whether or not

15 this was information that you gave to the individuals that you spoke to

16 during the time that you were held in Srebrenica during the interrogation.

17 Did you in fact advise them of your date of birth, that you were born in

18 Cosici, that you're the son of Radenko, that you permanently reside in

19 Bajina Basta since 1996, that you're married to Nada, and that you were

20 employed in Belgrade. Did you give them this information?

21 A. Your Honours, frankly, I don't remember. I believe they had

22 everything on me, even what they wrote about me working at the Prajd

23 Montaza [phoen] company. My health booklet was in my wallet. Believe me,

24 I don't remember ever being asked this. Don't think I'm trying to fool

25 you or anything like that. I wouldn't have a reason for that.

Page 4107

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, we need to stop here because of

2 technical reasons. We will have a 30-minute, full, break, and then we

3 will resume immediately after. Thank you.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's continue. Yes, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, prior to the break --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The hour that you told us you would need from today

11 has already gone into two hours. How much longer?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Ten minutes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed.


15 Q. Before the break, you were shown Prosecution Exhibit P44, and this

16 document, it's from the armed forces to the Commission for Mediation. Do

17 you recall during the time you were held in Srebrenica that you visited

18 any commission that dealt with exchanges or mediation? Do you recall

19 visiting a commission or group of people or anyone that --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not receiving any

22 interpretation, so it's quite possible that the witness isn't either.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we please check.

24 Mr. Ivanovic, when Ms. Richardson was asking you a question now,

25 were you receiving interpretation? No.

Page 4108

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I think we need to find a remedy to

3 that. And was the accused receiving interpretation or not? Are you

4 receiving interpretation now?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we have a technical problem. One

7 moment.

8 What I require from the technical team is an indication of whether

9 we need to stay in the courtroom or whether you would prefer us to go out

10 for a few minutes. All right, okay, so we'll wait here.

11 I was so happy when you said another 10 minutes, Ms. Richardson.

12 I will say a few words just to test the interpretation. Are you receiving

13 interpretation now?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can hear Your Honours. Yes, I

15 can hear you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not whether you can hear me, whether you can

17 hear the voice of the person or persons who are translating into your

18 language.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So the problem is not solved as yet. Do you

21 confirm, Ms. Vidovic, because I have to rely on you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My client and I can hear the

23 interpretation now. Now we do.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And again, I will repeat something just

25 for testing whether you are receiving interpretation in your language now

Page 4109

1 of what I am saying.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

4 So I think we can proceed. And now you have three minutes less,

5 Ms. Richardson. So let's proceed.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, before the break you were shown Prosecution Exhibit

8 P44, and it is -- it states on this document that recommendations were

9 made with respect to a Commission for Mediation. Did you visit at any

10 time, or were you taken to any commission that dealt with exchanges during

11 the time that you were held in the prison?

12 A. No, never.

13 Q. And were any of the other prisoners taken to any commission, as

14 far as you know?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Also, with respect to a high court, were you taken to any high

17 court for adjudication or questioned, or were any of the other prisoners,

18 as far as you know?

19 A. As far as I know, I was only taken to this person in the

20 municipality building. I don't remember anything else.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: At this time, Your Honour, I'd ask that

22 Prosecution Exhibit 48 be shown to the witness.

23 Q. I would ask if you recall -- this is, again, a document from the

24 Srebrenica armed forces to the Commission for Mediation to the enemy, and

25 it's dated 31st of January, 1993. This is in respect to Milisav

Page 4110

1 Milovanovic, son of Rade. Do you know if this person is or do you know if

2 this is the Mico you referred to?

3 A. Yes, I do, if we have the same person in mind, Rade, who I was

4 talking about, also known as Kojo.

5 Q. And he was from Sase?

6 A. Yes, from Sase. Milisav, Mico. If you're referring to Mico from

7 Sase, that's how I remembered him and wrote his name down, after

8 captivity.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. I would ask that the witness be shown

10 Prosecution Exhibit 50, 5-0.

11 Q. This document is a war -- is entitled "War Hospital Srebrenica,

12 Forensic Report," it's in regard to Milisav Milovanovic, born in 1950.

13 And just the second paragraph, it states:

14 "A medical examination was performed on the 12th of February."

15 In addition to that information, it also states that he was given

16 medical assistance and kept in the hospital.

17 "Due to lack of proper medication and seriousness of illness, the

18 above named died on the same day."

19 It also states further down, the last sentence:

20 "Based on the information provided by the patient that day, as

21 well as external examination, no traces of violence or injuries were

22 detected."

23 Now, Mr. Ivanovic, I draw your attention to when Mico died in the

24 prison. Do you recall that day?

25 A. I remember well when it was that Mico died. Now, as for the

Page 4111

1 information contained herein, somebody must have tried to present things

2 the way they wanted, because as far as I know, Mico was never taken to the

3 hospital.

4 Q. And did he receive any medical treatment in the prison, as far as

5 you know?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. And on the day he died, or prior to his death, was he beaten, and

8 did he have physical injuries?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Now I would ask the --

11 A. That's correct. One day, before he passed away, a young man came,

12 as I've already told you, and beat him in the chest. The following

13 morning, Ratko told us that Mico had already died and probably as a result

14 of injuries sustained in the beating by this young man.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. I'd ask the usher's assistance to --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Sorry. I'd ask the usher's assistance and

18 present document P53 to the witness.

19 Q. This is a document that's entitled "Srebrenica War Hospital,

20 record of on-site Investigation of Death." It states: "On the 19th of

21 March, 1993 the death of the above-named man was established. He was

22 undergoing medical treatment until March 3rd 1993. He died on 19th March

23 1993 on prison premises."

24 Further down, the last sentence reads:

25 "No traces of injuries or violence found on the body."

Page 4112

1 Now, Mr. Ivanovic, the last time you saw Branko Sekulic was where?

2 A. I saw Branko Sekulic the last time when I was taken to the

3 hospital, and I remember very well the condition he was in when I left,

4 and his condition was a result of the beatings. And I claim with

5 certainty that nobody ever came to provide any medical treatment to him or

6 anybody else.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: I would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

9 Exhibit 68.

10 Q. This is a Srebrenica War Hospital, a record of on-site

11 investigation of death, and this is in regards to Dragan Ilic. It states

12 that it was the death of the aforementioned was established on the 10th of

13 March, 1993. He underwent hospital treatment until 3rd of March, 1993.

14 And finally, there were no signs of injuries or violence on the body.

15 Now, the last time -- could you tell us, when was the last time

16 you saw Dragan Ilic, and what was his physical condition?

17 A. I really don't want to -- I don't know what to say to this. I

18 keep telling you that there was no medical assistance, that we were beaten

19 up, done in, I don't know how to put it. They're mentioning medical

20 assistance here, but I can tell you that there was none of that, except

21 for the treatment I underwent at the hospital. So that's what I can tell

22 you, aside from just looking at the document and the name on it.

23 Q. So the last time you saw Dragan Ilic, he was in the prison; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 4113

1 Q. And it appeared as though he had been beaten up?

2 A. They were all lying around, and they were basically dead people,

3 to tell you the truth.

4 Q. And is that the same for Djukic, Jakov? You can just answer with

5 a verbal yes.

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. And the last time you saw Milomir Djukic was in the hospital; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And what condition was he in?

11 A. I've said this several times, that it was such a pity for him to

12 actually have been treated well and recovered, I mean his legs, and then

13 to have probably died, at least that's what I think, because he never went

14 back home again.

15 Q. All right.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: And finally, Your Honour, I would like

17 Prosecution Exhibit P4 --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: The witness said not to have

19 probably died but to have probably been killed.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: At this time I'd like the usher's assistance in

21 showing the witness Prosecution Exhibit 458, and specifically if you could

22 assist with locating page 47 of the B/C/S, ERN number 03593170. In the

23 English version of this document, the information is located on page 31.

24 The page number is at the top. It's handwritten. The English is not on

25 Sanction. Right now we have the B/C/S on Sanction.

Page 4114

1 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, if you -- can you take a look at that document and

2 tell the Trial Chamber whether you recognise anyone from -- that's listed

3 in that document. Maybe I can assist, Your Honour in light of the time.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recognise Kostadin Popovic as someone who was with you in

6 the prison?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Milomir Djukic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Ratko Nikolic?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's page, of the English

13 version --

14 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, I see you're listed here as well; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And there is also -- do you see anyone else that you recognise on

17 that page? Milenko Trifunovic? Maybe it's on the next page.

18 A. Yes. Yes, he's on the other page, Trifunovic.

19 Q. All right. Thank you.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have no further questions at this

21 time.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

23 MR. JONES: Before I start, Your Honour, just to make clear that

24 we obviously -- we have objected to all the exhibits that have been shown,

25 and particularly also this diary which was found in a meadow, or whatever

Page 4115

1 the evidence was. We strongly object to it.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour?


4 MS. RICHARDSON: If I may, for the record, just state something

5 with respect to this exhibit, specifically 458. It was presented by

6 Nikola Popovic, as you recalled. He has contacted our office. He said

7 that he located the copy of the document, and we're making arrangements at

8 this moment to have it submitted to the Court. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.

10 Now, before you start your cross-examination, Mr. Jones, just some

11 housekeeping matters.

12 Today is Tuesday. It's obvious that we are not going to finish

13 with this witness today.

14 MR. JONES: I'm sorry, was Your Honour addressing me?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's obvious we're not going to finish with

16 this witness today.

17 MR. JONES: Yes, if I may, Your Honour --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: How much time do you think you require?

19 MR. JONES: If I may, Your Honour, just to put this in context,

20 the original estimate given by the Prosecution was three hours for this

21 witness. We've gone past the six-hour mark. And I actually do want to

22 make a point about that, that for our preparation never mind the Victims

23 and Witnesses Unit, never mind the Bench, it's not helpful to have such

24 unrealistic time estimates, and it means I have to revise my estimate,

25 because obviously the witness has given a lot more evidence than I

Page 4116

1 expected.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, with the important, or more important

3 witnesses, I have already made the Trial Chamber's position clear, and

4 there will we no restrictions.

5 MR. JONES: Yes, so three and a half hours, I would say, at this

6 point, is my estimate.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You need three and a half hours, which basically

8 leaves us with one hour now, and then we need another two and a half hours

9 tomorrow, which would then, more or less, leave us with one hour for the

10 next witness, number 26.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Twenty-six. And witness 26, who will be dealing

13 with that witness? Madam Vidovic, how much time do you think you will

14 require for that witness. The Prosecution is saying one hour, but that

15 is, again, very conservative, according to you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the

17 examination-in-chief will remain within the ambit of what the witness had

18 stated to the OTP, I believe that the cross-examination will last some 45

19 minutes to one hour at most. But it seems to be customary with the OTP to

20 include some facts other than those contained in the statement, and if

21 that will be the case, then my examination will probably last longer.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can say with some certainty that

23 this estimation is correct for the next two witnesses, 26 and 27.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the 26, you need one hour, and the Defence

25 will need one hour, so basically that could cover the next witness -- the

Page 4117

1 next witness, one hour and one hour. And the other one, 27, you say one

2 hour, but then you indicate two days, 26 and 27.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I think that that was indicated only

4 if this person ran out of time and this person would have gone into the

5 next day. So I think it was estimated based on this witness finishing

6 Wednesday, the next one, Djukic, starting on Thursday, and then number 27

7 starting and then finishing the next day.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. This witness will finish tomorrow.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Right, that's correct.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And that will be roughly two hours -- two and a half

11 hours into tomorrow, so it will be the first break plus halfway, serious

12 halfway, into the second session. Roughly I consider that we will only be

13 left with one hour for the next witness, and that will be tomorrow,

14 Wednesday.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: And we can conduct the direct examination --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, which basically brings us into Thursday, and

17 Defence will need another hour to finish that witness off, okay? Then we

18 have the other witness, and you say one hour.

19 And the Defence, with regard to witness 27?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in relation to witness

21 27, we will be requiring at least one hour, perhaps even as much as one

22 hour and 15 minutes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, because Thursday we have to stop at 12,

24 maximum 12.30, but certainly not beyond that, because one of us needs to

25 travel, which would leave us one hour for the first witness, then

Page 4118

1 another -- 9 to 10, then you have half an hour and you have an hour and a

2 half, two hours -- two hours. I don't yet know the areas that witness 27

3 will touch. But what I want to avoid is have witness 27 stay over the

4 weekend.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it's my understanding that these

7 last two witnesses for the week are witnesses who will be confirming the

8 deaths of relatives, and so --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically all that.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Basically.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So take it for granted that, with regard to those

12 two witnesses, 26, 27, we will be imposing a time limit, okay? And make

13 sure that we will finish with both by the end of -- by the end of the

14 second session on Thursday, on Thursday. All right.

15 Yes. Now, Mr. Jones --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, before Mr. Jones begins, and I don't

17 want to necessarily discuss this in front of the witness, but we haven't

18 received an exhibit list. Is it that the witness doesn't have one for

19 this witness?

20 MR. JONES: Precisely.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

22 MR. JONES: I mean, it's standard practice on our side, that if

23 we're going to use prior witness statements, that we don't specifically

24 notify those, and that's been a practice which the Prosecution has

25 accepted. So I don't preclude that we will use prior statements, but no

Page 4119

1 exhibits beyond that.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.


4 Mr. Ivanovic, Mr. Jones will be asking you some questions, and I

5 would like to remind you of my words of last week I think it was, or last

6 Monday, that you are compelled to answer all his questions truthfully and

7 fully, in the same manner you have answered the questions put to you by

8 the Prosecutor. Thank you.

9 Yes, Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: Thank you.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

12 Q. Yes. Good afternoon, Mr. Ivanovic.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. I'm going to start by taking you right back to the beginning and

15 to the area of Cosici, which I imagine you know very well.

16 A. Yes, of course.

17 Q. Now, just to help us get our bearings, you said that Cosici is in

18 a valley. Is there a river running through Cosici?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Does that river flow down to the Drina?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that the route that civilians took on the 16th of January, 1993

23 when they went towards Bajina Basta? Did they go along the river?

24 A. No. No, not up the river but rather down the river.

25 Q. All right. But did they follow the river down to or up to Skelani

Page 4120

1 and Bajina Basta? Is that the route they took?

2 A. No, those that I know of at least.

3 Q. Right. So could you tell us what route they did take on that day?

4 A. At least that time, I know because of my mother who I was with in

5 the village at that time, they went via Maltasi.

6 Q. Is it right that they went between the villages of Tihic and

7 Malta?

8 A. Yes. I found out later, because I didn't follow them, one group

9 went via Tihici, and another group, when they met the Muslim forces, just

10 scattered. That's what they told me and what my mother told me. Some of

11 them crossed over in that area. I can't tell you where to exactly. But I

12 know that they were moving towards Maltasi.

13 Q. Thank you. I'll come back to that in a moment with a map. First,

14 I want to ask you some questions about 1992, so even before the attack of

15 the 16th of January.

16 Now, you told us you came from Serbia to defend your home village

17 of Cosici. Can you tell us when that was?

18 A. Yes, specifically, the first thing I want to say is that I first

19 came -- I had worked in Montenegro, in a town called Tivat, for a military

20 company. When I arrived from there, it was for a feast day of

21 St. Lazarus. As usual, we held the ceremony, and from that time to the

22 day I was captured, I spent between 80 and 90 per cent of my time in

23 Bajina Basta with my wife, my brother, my sister-in-law.

24 Q. I'll stop you there, Mr. Ivanovic, just so we can take these

25 points quickly. Is there a date, even an approximate date, of when you

Page 4121

1 went and joined what you called the village guard in Cosici?

2 A. We joined this village guard in the most serious fashion after

3 Christmas fell. When it had all burned down, we took a very serious

4 approach to defending our homes.

5 Q. Are you talking about Christmas 1993, orthodox Christmas? I'm

6 simply not following you. When did you join the village guard in Cosici,

7 where you found yourself on the 16th of January, 1993?

8 A. I used to come and see my mother on a regular basis, to our home.

9 We had some land there which we worked. At the time the house I had in

10 Bajina Basta was something that I did not consider a home. My home was in

11 Cosici.

12 Q. All right. So when did you move over to Cosici?

13 A. To Cosici, I've said this, and I will say it again, we seriously

14 joined the village guard after Bozici had burned down. I had been in

15 Bajina Basta at the time, staying with my wife's brother, and I actually

16 saw the village burning.

17 Q. So is it right, then, that from the 7th of January, 1993, to the

18 16th of January, 1993, only, that that was the period that you were in the

19 village guard?

20 A. Even before that time, but not that seriously, really, which means

21 whenever we came, we had some sort of a guard with less people. It was

22 some sort of a patrol. I'm not sure what I should call it.

23 Q. Okay. Well, I take it, then, that you never engaged in combat

24 action in other villages or hamlets in this area before the 16th of

25 January, 1993?

Page 4122

1 A. No, never. Never. I can guarantee that.

2 Q. You hadn't seen any combat action whatsoever until that date?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. Now, I said I'd go back to the map.

5 MR. JONES: I was going to use P472, but it actually appears to

6 be two maps stuck together. It's something we can see later. But I

7 prefer to use this map.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for pointing that out because it was not

9 pointed out before, although we noticed it, of course.

10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm going to use copies of

11 this map instead, which is one which we have. There should be one for the

12 witness and one for each of Your Honours, and one for the Prosecution, of

13 course. Do we have enough? Otherwise I can put my copy on the ELMO.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we all have one.

15 MR. JONES: I'm happy to offer --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's enough, actually, because the witness

18 won't be needing it after he's finished with it. So we have enough, thank

19 you.

20 MR. JONES: Thank you.

21 Q. I'm afraid I'll have to ask you, first of all, to mark Cosici on

22 that map. I hope it won't be too problematic. You can see Bozici, which

23 I've highlighted, and even the most approximate mark where Cosici is would

24 be helpful.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 4123

1 Q. If you could just put a square for Cosici.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. And now could you mark the escape route, which you mentioned

4 earlier, which civilians took when they left Cosici to get to Bajina

5 Basta. Again, just approximately.

6 A. [Indicates].

7 Q. If you could mark it with a pen.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. But from Cosici, how did they get to Malta? If you could just

10 mark that as well.

11 A. My apologies. I can't see Cosici clearly enough on the map in

12 order to be able to mark it.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

14 Mr. Ivanovic, you recall that a couple of minutes ago you put a

15 small circle near Pavkovici, and we took it that you were indicating for

16 us Cosici, because the question that had been put to you before was

17 precisely to show us on the map where you think Cosici was. So if you

18 want to revise that, you can revise it. I can tell you that the point

19 which you indicated today does not correspond with the point that you

20 indicated yesterday. Yesterday you said that it was between Bozici and

21 Kolari.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I got it wrong, but believe

23 me, I do know the area well.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.

25 MR. JONES: For my purposes, that's fine.

Page 4124

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.

2 MR. JONES: And the witness should, I imagine, initial --

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think the registrar is right, because on

5 that document, you can barely distinguish the lines that he has drawn. So

6 I would suggest that if you have another spare copy which you can let us

7 have, Mr. Jones -- or we can use the same one -- but I can ask him to draw

8 the lines again in red, or some other colour, which will --

9 MR. JONES: With a highlighter.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's too big. That's too big. Yes, give him --

11 okay, give him that. At least it's of a different colour anyway. Okay.

12 The red one is okay. The red one is okay.

13 So you need to redraw in red the two routes, the one from Skelani

14 and the one from Cosici. The one from Cosici to Malta, and the one from

15 Skelani ...

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks].


18 Q. And then from, basically, Pavkovici to Cosici, if you could just

19 show where the civilians would have gone to get from Cosici to Pavkovici,

20 on that map.

21 A. These are two villages that are nearly one village.

22 Q. You think that Cosici is practically in Pavkovici?

23 A. Yes, that's right. The two villages that are connected, forming

24 almost one village. Between the two villages, there is a single house

25 midway between the two, which is no distance at all, really. I think

Page 4125

1 you'd be perfectly right calling it one village.

2 Q. Okay, thank you. That's helpful. I think you still need to

3 initial the line that you have drawn.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you put your initials at the beginning

5 and at the end of those lines, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


9 Q. Now, sticking with that map for a little bit longer, do you see

10 Daljegosta on the map? Or, indeed, are you familiar with Daljegosta?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it right that that's just a few kilometres away from Cosici?

13 A. Yes. The distance between Daljegosta and Cosici, if you have that

14 in mind. I'm not sure which one's Mala and which one's Velika because

15 there are two. If you mean the one with the mosque, in that case, I can

16 tell you my assessment of the distance.

17 Q. You've mentioned a mosque. So is it right that that was a Muslim

18 village?

19 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And that's Velika or Mala or both?

21 A. Believe me, I don't know. I think that there was a place called

22 Velika and a place called Mala Daljegosta.

23 Q. Now, you mentioned Ismet Hodzic or Odzic. He was from Daljegosta,

24 wasn't he?

25 A. No.

Page 4126

1 Q. Where was he from?

2 A. He was from Arapovici, should I say, or Jezce. Maybe you could

3 call it Jezce, but I think it was from Arapovici. He is a shop owner, and

4 that's how I know. I'm certain about this.

5 Q. Now, you saw him later in Srebrenica. When you saw him --

6 A. That's true.

7 Q. -- when you saw him, didn't he tell you that your father, Radenko,

8 had saved him in some way?

9 A. He did. I think it happened in the prison. Once he barged in,

10 saying something like, "Ilija, thank you so much. Your father helped me

11 to save my life."

12 Q. Didn't your father advise Ismet at the start of the war that he

13 should move his family from the village? Isn't that how he --

14 A. Yes, it might as well have been that. Maybe he told him

15 something, but I wasn't there when they talked and when he told him that.

16 Q. And Ismet did move his family away from the area, didn't he? But

17 he himself went to Srebrenica.

18 A. That's true. He even once told me their whereabouts. That was

19 during my captivity.

20 Q. So the Serbs, like your father Radenko, stayed in the villages in

21 your area, but the Muslims left; would that be correct?

22 A. Yes. My father, Radenko, left later. I had begun to build a

23 house upon my return from Libya. I returned back in 1986. I only had one

24 small bit that was finished, where my brother and his wife lived, and he

25 wanted to have at least another section built, because up to that point,

Page 4127

1 they'd only had one small room.

2 Q. I'm going to stop you there, Mr. Ivanovic, because you're giving a

3 lot of detail, and it may mean that we stay here longer than we need to.

4 I'll ask very short questions, and you can usually provide a short answer.

5 My question, really, was this: Isn't it right that the Muslims in

6 this whole area, this broader area, were leaving in 1992 because they

7 didn't feel safe there anymore?

8 A. Well, yes. To the best of my recollection, they were leaving, and

9 they were probably seen out with dignity. I would like you to prove that

10 anyone was even cocked as new cats on their way out to Serbia. I was in

11 the village and I should know, but I wish I hadn't been there.

12 Q. So you were in the village in 1992, there in Cosici?

13 A. I've said this before, and I'll repeat it for you: I would come

14 to Cosici every once in a while. It's my village. That is why I can be

15 sure about the things I'm telling you. As for when exactly I came, I

16 really can't be sure, because I would come and go. After Bozici fell, I

17 spent most of my time there.

18 Q. That might be the confusion earlier when you were referring to

19 Bozic and Bozici. It's a town, not just a date.

20 Leaving that to one side. You also mentioned Ahmo Tihic

21 yesterday, and today indeed. He's the brother of Dzemo Tihic.

22 A. Yes, yes, it's a town.

23 Q. Now I'm asking about the person Ahmo Tihic. He's the brother of

24 Dzemo Tihic.

25 A. Yes, that's true. That's true.

Page 4128

1 Q. Which village was he from?

2 A. Tihic? Tihic, Lijesce. I'm not sure what else to call it. I

3 know where his house used to be, his shop. I know his parents.

4 Q. And you saw him in Srebrenica. Isn't that because he, too, had to

5 leave Tihici and go to Srebrenica?

6 A. I don't know why he left for Srebrenica, but I did see him over

7 there.

8 Q. You saw these villages, you explained how you're familiar with the

9 area. By January the 16th, 1993, there were no Muslims in Tihici, were

10 there?

11 A. That's true, none.

12 Q. Nor were there Muslims in Arapovici at that moment.

13 A. No.

14 Q. In Dobrak.

15 A. I wouldn't go into that. That wasn't near where I was. I will

16 tell you whatever I can, but I did say a while ago that I spent quite

17 little time in the area, because previously I had worked for a company in

18 Belgrade and also abroad.

19 Q. So just sticking with the area that you know, isn't it right to

20 summarise that, by the 16th of January, 1993, there were no Muslims in

21 that area?

22 A. Not in the area through which I was passing.

23 Q. And those people, then, having left their houses, that would be,

24 would it not, a lot of Muslim men, women, and children who would have left

25 their homes; hundreds, perhaps thousands even. Would you agree?

Page 4129

1 A. Probably. Probably. I don't know the number, but they did leave,

2 that's certain.

3 Q. Did you see the woods from Cosici? And if you could, did you not

4 see flames and fires there, of people, Muslims, living in the woods?

5 A. No, I don't remember that. I didn't see that.

6 Q. Were you aware that there were Muslims living in the woods in

7 makeshift shelters?

8 A. Probably. It was proven that they were there throughout the area,

9 as far as Skelani, as far as the bridge.

10 Q. Now, your area was part of Srebrenica municipality before the war,

11 wasn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then when the war started, our sometime in 1992, it became a

14 new municipality of Skelani, didn't it, if you're aware.

15 A. I wasn't aware of that, the exact area under the municipality. I

16 didn't spend that much time thinking about it. I thought more about my

17 own village, as well as the house that I owned over in Bajina Basta.

18 Q. But the picture I'm painting for you and which I'm going to

19 suggest to you now is that, what was happening in your area is that Serbs

20 were expelling all the Muslims so that that area, the new municipality of

21 Skelani, could become annexed to Serbia as part of a greater Serbia. Can

22 you help us with that?

23 A. I don't think I can shed any light on that. I only know that,

24 whenever I came to my village, I could notice, on the Muslim houses, for

25 example, that they were marked. There were planks on their roofs. That's

Page 4130

1 the sort of thing they had. I have no idea what that was supposed to

2 mean, though. As for this greater Serbia, it's something that you're now

3 telling me about. For me, Serbia is when I come home.

4 Q. But you came from Serbia to fight in Cosici, didn't you? Did you

5 see part of your fight as being to keep that area within the former

6 Yugoslavia?

7 MR. JONES: If the witness could answer first.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let the witness answer the question first,

9 please. Thank you.

10 A. I don't understand. What do you mean, from Serbia? I was just

11 coming home.

12 MR. JONES: In any event, I'll --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: My objection was the way the question was

15 phrased, which I think he asked the witness if he came to fight. I don't

16 think he testified he came to fight. I think he came to --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But it was a suggestion that was being put to him,

18 and I think he has answered both.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Fine, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.


22 Q. Yes. Maybe just one more question on that point. At this time

23 did you see home, Cosici, and Serbia, Bajina Basta, as being one country?

24 A. No. No. As regards that, the answer is no. I grew up, after

25 all, in Bosnia-Herzegovina in my home, and I am still very much a part of

Page 4131

1 it.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. Although I own this other house in Bajina Basta, believe me that

4 this is still the village that I go to very often.

5 Q. I understand that. Now, have you heard of the expression

6 "torbari"? Does it mean anything to you?

7 A. No. I don't know what that might mean, torbar.

8 Q. Well, you told us yesterday that how from Maltaska Gradina, when

9 you were up there, you saw "an enormous column" of Muslim men, women, and

10 children stretching a kilometre from the direction of Colakovici. Now,

11 stopping there for a moment --

12 A. Colavici.

13 Q. Colavici, okay. Now, this column stretching a kilometre long,

14 would you agree that that would have been composed of thousands of people?

15 A. I'm not sure that I saw thousands of people. And it's not from

16 Maltasi that I saw them. I saw them as I was moving away from Maltasi.

17 And I really can't say how distant I was from the column when I saw it.

18 Q. Would you agree that there were hundreds of people in the column?

19 A. Yes, I would. There were many people there in one column that

20 must have been stretching for at least one kilometre.

21 Q. All right. Now, when you were interviewed about this in 2002, you

22 stated, and I'll -- I don't need to show you this statement, I'll just

23 read it for you. But the reference for us is page 3 of that statement,

24 and it's ERN 01171375, paragraph 16. But there, speaking of the same

25 events, you said:

Page 4132

1 "They were coming from all over. Ninety per cent of them were

2 young. Some were young men, some were young girls."

3 Do you remember saying that?

4 A. Yes, but perhaps something there was altered in my statement,

5 because I don't agree with everything in relation to the army. As for the

6 people arriving from Colakovici, I wouldn't agree with that part.

7 Q. You were speaking earlier about people coming from Colakovici. In

8 fact, the location isn't really important. Do you agree that there were

9 many young people in the column, firstly?

10 A. Yes. There were also young people there, and I said that there

11 were women, children, men. They had horses with them as well. And they

12 were banging on some containers. Probably their intention was to make a

13 lot of noise. That's what I've already said.

14 Q. I'm coming to that, and there's no need to repeat what you've said

15 already. We do have a record. What I wanted to ask you was, did you see

16 that many of these people were carrying bags to put food in?

17 A. From my vantage point, from the distance I was at, I was unable to

18 see any bags. I told you that I did see the column. And there were many

19 horse-drawn carts in the column as well.

20 Q. Now, just --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: Horses in the column.

22 MR. JONES: Okay.

23 Q. Now, just sticking with the women, for a moment, who you saw, I

24 want to clarify a matter you spoke about yesterday. It seemed that you

25 were suggesting that every single girl or woman had an automatic rifle.

Page 4133

1 I'll read what you said, and then you can say whether that's correct or

2 not. And the reference is page 21 of the transcript yesterday, lines 5 to

3 17.

4 "Q. What were the approximate ages of girls you described in

5 uniforms or partial uniforms?

6 A. They were from 17 to 20 years of age. Perhaps some of them

7 were younger."

8 Skipping a bit.

9 "Q. And were they also carrying weapons?

10 A. Yes, they were. All of them had weapons of much better

11 quality than we did. All of them were automatic weapons."

12 So I just want to check that. Do you wish to correct that, or do

13 you maintain that every single woman or girl which you saw that day was in

14 a camouflage uniform and had an automatic rifle?

15 A. There's nothing for me to correct there. I said that that I was

16 describing the group that I came across and that captured me. I wasn't

17 describing the group that was moving from the direction of Colakovici.

18 Q. Thank you. Just to clarify that matter. Now, staying with the

19 column and the people you saw in the column, and the banging of pots which

20 you described, could you agree that this was a scene of complete chaos,

21 with all these civilians running all over the place?

22 A. I don't know what they were after, but I know that first there

23 would be the army seizing the area, then there would be others looting

24 belongings and taking them away. And I don't know what else I can say to

25 explain this to you.

Page 4134

1 Q. Just to say, for the civilians, then, no one appeared to be in

2 control of them, and no one could control them; would you agree with that?

3 A. I wouldn't be able to tell, really. Whether they had a leader or

4 not, I don't know. But I know that I saw the column of people, but I did

5 not see them arriving in the village.

6 Q. On that day you recognised many people as local Muslims, didn't

7 you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So would it be right, then, that possibly many of them, many of

10 the Muslims you saw, were Muslims who had left their homes in the area

11 earlier and were now coming back?

12 A. Among those who attacked my village, I could not recognise a

13 single person. But as they were coming into the village, I could

14 recognise some persons. And it's good of you to have reminded me. The

15 password was Naser Gada, and I was able to see quite clearly what clothes

16 they wore and what weapons they carried.

17 Q. Sorry, I don't see how I reminded you of that password, but we'll

18 move on from there.

19 Would you agree, from the way you were treated when you were

20 immediately arrested, that local Muslims were very angry at the Serbs, at

21 people they saw as local Serbs, because of what had passed, because of

22 them having to leave their homes?

23 A. I don't know whether they were angry or not. I repeat: Those of

24 us who were there were in our own homes. I have to tell you that 12

25 people got killed there, after all. Now, angry or not, they did come to

Page 4135

1 my home.

2 Q. All right. As I say, there's no need to repeat matters you've

3 already dealt with, and you did tell us that yesterday. And since you

4 raise the matter of the-- guarding your homes, I'm going to move to

5 another set of questions, and I'm going to come back to what we were

6 discussing earlier.

7 You've told us that you were simply a member of the village guard,

8 and that the Serb army didn't give you help of any kind; is that right?

9 No instructions or anything.

10 A. I don't know anything about that. I'm telling you now that

11 whenever I went to the village, I'd always get something, a rifle or

12 something else, to stand guard.

13 Q. Wasn't there a Skelani battalion at that time, and weren't you

14 part of that battalion?

15 A. The Skelani battalion was not there with us, and you can easily

16 check that, that is, you can easily infer that from the number of people

17 who got killed there, the villagers.

18 Q. Let's take -- let's just stick with you. You were in full

19 camouflage uniform on the 16th of January, 1993, weren't you?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Isn't it right that, as you said in your 2002 statement, "I was

22 wearing a camouflage jacket, camouflage trousers, and boots. I carried my

23 automatic rifle." Do you agree with all of that?

24 A. I do not wish to deny that. I want to say something that I've

25 already emphasised earlier on: I went to the village to help my

Page 4136

1 neighbours and relatives. Whenever I did go there, I put on whatever

2 clothes I had. Whether they were civilian clothes or a camouflage

3 uniform, I did not pay attention to that.

4 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, as I've said, you have dealt with a lot of these

5 areas before. I'm going to ask you very specific questions, and I would

6 appreciate it if you would simply answer yes or no, if you can.

7 Now, on that day, didn't you also have grenades, or at least a

8 grenade?

9 A. Yes, I did have a grenade.

10 Q. Yes. This is what we call in English a grenade. You pull a pin

11 out, and then throw it, and it explodes. That's what you had.

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Now, what --

14 A. And I've described that several times already.

15 Q. Were all 25 of you, in what you called the village guard, issued

16 with grenades, or was it just you, if you know?

17 A. No, it was by coincidence. Whatever we had here at hand at the

18 time of the start of the attack, whatever we did have at our disposal, we

19 used. I wish to repeat that that very night I was asleep because I was

20 not standing guard that morning, just prior to the attack.

21 Q. Yes. You told us that you were sleeping at your mother's house,

22 and that you woke at 5.45 a.m. So is it right, then, that sleeping at

23 your mother's house, you were in that full regalia, camouflage jacket,

24 camouflage trousers, boots, machine-gun and grenades. You had all of that

25 with you when you were sleeping at your mother's.

Page 4137

1 A. Yes, I had those clothes, and I must have had the rifle, or

2 rather, I've explained this several times, I had a PAP, semi-automatic

3 rifle. And when my cousin, my uncle's son, got killed, I took his

4 automatic rifle.

5 Q. You spoke about that yesterday. I thought your evidence was that

6 the Muslims left your cousin's rifle, but in fact you tell us now that you

7 took it.

8 A. No, I'm not aware of having said that, because this cousin of

9 mine, my uncle's son, got killed while we were pulling out, as far as I

10 remember.

11 Q. I can read it back to you.

12 A. Very well.

13 Q. It was at page 21 of the transcript, lines 13 to 17:

14 "Let me explain to you. When my cousin was killed, he was

15 wearing" - that's what it says - "a semi-automatic rifle, and as they

16 killed him, they just left the rifle standing there. They refused to take

17 it with them, so you can imagine what sort of weaponry they had."

18 Wasn't that your evidence, that the Muslims left the rifle after

19 they had killed him?

20 A. I hope that this is some sort of a misunderstanding, because this

21 particular rifle belonged to my relative who got killed at Maltaska

22 Gradina and not to my cousin, who was shot by a sniper.

23 Q. Let's take that, then. You say, if that's your cousin, that's the

24 one who blew himself up with the grenade; correct?

25 A. No.

Page 4138

1 Q. You told us that your cousin Mile accidentally or on purpose

2 detonated a grenade and killed himself. Isn't that the cousin you're

3 talking about on Maltaska Gradina?

4 A. Yes, but this did not take place in the village you have asked me

5 about. I know what I said and what I experienced. What you were talking

6 about now relates to my relative Mile who got killed at Maltaska Gradina.

7 We found this shelter in a ditch next to the road, and my relative was

8 lying prone -- yes.

9 Q. I'll stop you. You don't need to --

10 A. I can explain it to you in detail, but you must have misunderstood

11 this part.

12 Q. You've explained this before. My point to you now is this: If,

13 when you were talking about your cousin Mile, you were talking about the

14 person who blew himself up, then why did you say, "when my cousin was

15 killed, he was wearing a semi-automatic rifle, and as they killed them,

16 they just left the rifle standing there"? The Muslims didn't kill them,

17 did they? He killed himself.

18 A. There were several of my relatives there, and I have to tell you

19 that I took the rifle off my relative -- off my cousin who was shot by a

20 sniper in the village, as we were pulling out in the direction of Maltasi.

21 And I don't really understand how it was possible for you to skip this

22 part about the village and turn to Maltasi and my relative and his rifle

23 there.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ivanovic, please don't argue with

25 Mr. Jones. He is doing his duty. He has a right to ask you questions.

Page 4139

1 If you don't agree with what he's putting to you, just answer yes or no,

2 or give reasons why you don't agree. But you don't enter into a direct

3 confrontation with him.

4 Yes, Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. And my point is this, Mr. Ivanovic, and I'm not going to dwell on

7 it: But weren't you suggesting yesterday that Mile had been killed by the

8 Muslims when you said that, "as they killed him," when you know full them

9 that no one killed him, he killed himself.

10 A. Yes, and I did say that he killed himself.

11 Q. Let's go back to the village guard. You said also that you later

12 got a mortar. Now, when was that?

13 A. At that point I was not in the village. On one occasion, when I

14 went there, just immediately prior to the attack, I was at my home in

15 Bajina Basta. I think I've described this already. This cousin of mine,

16 who was due to have his baby, he told me, "Cousin, don't leave, because

17 Sladza is about to give birth." And I said I had to go --

18 Q. My question was nothing of that sort. My question was: When did

19 the village guard get the mortar? It's a very simple question, if you

20 could please answer it.

21 A. I can't tell you, because at that point I was in Bajina Basta.

22 Q. All right. Now, you've accepted that you were in a full

23 camouflage uniform on the 16th of January, 1993, that you had a

24 machine-gun and grenades. Who supplied you with all those things, if not

25 the Bosnian Serb army?

Page 4140

1 A. I don't know much about this. I repeat that I would often go to

2 Bajina Basta, and then upon my return, whatever weaponry we had, we used

3 for our defence.

4 Q. So, in fact, you can't say for sure who supplied the village with

5 those things. You can't say that it wasn't the Serb army.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Yesterday you were pretty categorical that it wasn't the Serb

8 army, and that's why I'm clarifying it.

9 So do you say that you were not a soldier?

10 A. I don't know if the Serbian army did that. But if -- if time

11 allowing, I would like to explain this to you in more detail. As I was

12 going over there to defend the village, I was probably -- I would

13 probably, as such, classify as a soldier.

14 Q. Well, in fact, when you were brought to Srebrenica, you had a

15 military identification booklet on you, didn't you?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Doesn't that mean that you were a soldier in the Serb army on the

18 16th of January, 1993?

19 A. No, that's not correct, because this military booklet dated from

20 the former Yugoslavia.

21 Q. All right. There's a medical certificate --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a second here. Was it a JNA military booklet?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

24 MR. JONES: I'll come back to that.

25 Q. On the subject of grenades, isn't it right that after Mile

Page 4141

1 detonated his grenade, that you dropped yours and then you couldn't find

2 it among the leaves?

3 A. No, I didn't throw it away. While Mile Ivanovic's grenade went

4 off - and in this explosion, my hand and my leg were injured - in this

5 process, with the blast, my grenade simply fell and I was unable to

6 restore it, to find it.

7 Q. Yes. There might have been a problem in interpretation. That was

8 all I wanted to establish, that you dropped your grenade and then you

9 couldn't find it among the leaves. It's that specific detail which I'm

10 asking you, if that's true.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to answer it, because you have

12 already answered it. Let's move to the next question, Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: It will become apparent in due course why I seek that

14 specific detail. That's fine. We have it, we have the answer.

15 Q. Now, you told us how you laid land-mines around Cosici, and in

16 your statement of 2002, you said they were placed around three sides; is

17 that correct?

18 A. As far as my memory serves me, I think I kept saying that we laid

19 the mines in the direction from which we expected them to come. I don't

20 know if they had been laid earlier on as well, but I do remember that

21 after the torching of Bozici, mines were laid. Perhaps even earlier on.

22 But you have to believe me when I tell you that I don't know anything

23 about that.

24 Q. I was looking at your 2002 statement, page 2. You don't need to

25 refer to it, but it's for the record, ERN 01171374, paragraph 7:

Page 4142

1 "Land-mines were placed around three sides of the perimeter of my

2 village of Cosici."

3 So could that be correct?

4 A. It is correct that they were placed, but I'm not sure about the

5 dates. I told you when I think that they were placed.

6 Q. Now, your average farmer wouldn't have a clue how to lay

7 land-mines without killing or injuring himself, would he?

8 A. You're right. But I myself did not lay these mines, nor was I

9 aware of how that is done.

10 Q. Yesterday you were very clear that the village guard had received

11 no instructions from the Serb army. Do you agree that actually laying

12 land-mines, there would need to be instruction from military experts, more

13 specifically from the Serb army?

14 A. I cannot tell you anything on this matter. I know that the mines

15 were laid by a man from this, what do you call it, defence, who had some

16 previous experience from the army.

17 Q. Now, you knew, in your village, didn't you, where you laid your

18 land-mines. You kept records so that you wouldn't wander into them

19 yourself. Would that be right?

20 A. Yes, that's right. I heard about that too. I told you that mines

21 were laid in three different areas.

22 Q. So on the 16th of January, 1993, when you said you heard mines

23 detonating, that was, in all probability, an unsuspecting Muslim who had

24 got blown up, isn't it, rather than a Serb?

25 A. I don't remember anything like that. I don't remember that

Page 4143

1 anything like that was ever said. I know that on the 16th, when the

2 first mine went off, we all jumped to our feet. And one of my cousins

3 told me, "Get up, all of you, it seems we're under attack." We headed

4 that way to see for ourselves, because we had noticed Muslim soldiers

5 moving along.

6 Q. Do you know --

7 MR. JONES: This is my last question on this subject.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Any time --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Any time, at your convenience, between now and a

11 quarter past.

12 MR. JONES: I had one more question, perhaps to make best use of

13 the time, I would go a bit longer in that case.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But not beyond 1.15.

15 MR. JONES: It would be best that I conclude this area, and then

16 we can break.

17 Q. Do you know of no instances, then, where Muslims were injured by

18 land-mines in Cosici? Specific instances.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Or where Muslims were wounded by any means in Cosici?

21 A. Probably they were.

22 Q. Do you know how Mehmedalija Tihic came to be wounded in Cosici?

23 A. Mehmedalija Tihic stepped on a mine on the road to Kolari. He was

24 taken to Skelani to receive treatment in the presence of Mico Trifunovic.

25 That's as much as I know. That's where they went.

Page 4144

1 Q. And you don't know whether he survived, do you?

2 A. Believe me, I have no idea.

3 MR. JONES: I think that's probably a good moment to pause.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I think we are moving. The only thing

5 I wanted to ask you, Mr. Jones, is this map that you made use of in the

6 initial period of your cross-examination, whether you want to tender it or

7 not.

8 MR. JONES: Yes, please. Since the witness has marked it, yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So this will be Defence Exhibit D?

10 THE REGISTRAR: 168, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: 168, okay.

12 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank

14 you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.05 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

17 January, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.