1 Thursday, 27 January 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 And good morning to you.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
9 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,
13 distinguished gentlemen and ladies. Yes, I can follow the proceedings.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you. Please be
16 Appearances for the Prosecution.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Di Fazio,
20 and I appear with my colleague Mr. Doria this morning. And I might also
21 add, my case manager, Donnica Henry-Frijlink.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you all.
23 Appearances for Naser Oric.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
25 morning to the colleagues from the OTP. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and
1 together with Mr. John Jones, I represent the Defence for Mr. Oric. We
2 have our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, with us, and our case
3 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good morning, everyone.
5 I take it there are no preliminaries. That's what I have been
6 told. So we can proceed straight away.
7 Witness, Mrs. Milovanovic, good morning to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I am the Presiding Judge in this trial against
10 Mr. Oric. My name is Carmel Agius, and I come from Malta. Not the Malta
11 which is in your area but the island of Malta. I am flanked to my right
12 with Judge Hans Henrik Brydensholt from Denmark, and to my left, by
13 Judge Albin Eser from Germany.
14 You are here because you have been summoned by the Prosecution as
15 a witness in this case. Our Rules require that before you start giving
16 evidence, you make a solemn declaration, something which is equivalent to
17 an oath. The purport of the solemn declaration is -- it says that in the
18 course of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth,
19 and nothing but the truth. The text of the solemn declaration is
20 contained in a piece of paper which Madam Usher, who is standing to your
21 right, will soon be handing to you.
22 Could I please ask you to stand up, take the text in your hands,
23 read that text aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: VOJKA MILOVANOVIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. You may sit down. You will be
4 here for a very short time. So relax. You don't have to feel nervous or
5 afraid of anything. We will try to do our best to get you out of this
6 courtroom as quickly as possible.
7 The procedure is a very simple one, and I will try to explain it
8 to you. Mr. Jose Doria, on behalf of the Prosecutor, will be asking you a
9 few questions. I understand you have met him before. And then after he
10 has finished, you will be asked questions by Madam Vidovic, at your left,
11 who is representing, who is lead counsel for Naser Oric. Then as soon as
12 it is over, you can go.
13 Your duty, in terms of the oath, the solemn declaration that you
14 have made, is to answer all questions truthfully, honestly, and fully, to
15 the best of your knowledge, and that means answering all questions
16 irrespective of who is putting them to you. In other words, you do not
17 have a right to distinguish between questions coming from the Defence from
18 questions coming from the Prosecution. Your duty is to answer them
19 truthfully, all of them.
20 Having said that, I just want to know, to make sure of two things,
21 whether I have made myself clear to you.
22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I also want to make sure that you are receiving
24 interpretation in your language as we go along. Because we will not be
25 speaking, you will be the only person speaking your own language, and
1 later on Madam Vidovic. The rest of us speak English, so I want to make
2 sure that everything is being translated to you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And also I want to make sure that the level, the
5 sound level, is neither too high nor too low for you, that it is okay, in
6 other words.
7 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
9 Mr. Doria, you may begin.
10 Examined by Mr. Doria:
11 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Witness, is that correct that your name is Vojka Milovanovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that correct, that you were born on the 22nd April, 1956?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that correct, that you are of Serb ethnicity?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is that correct, that you are a housewife?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that correct, that you have two children, Dalibor, born in
21 1980, and Daliborka, born in 1983?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that correct, that you used to live, and are still living, in
24 the village of Sase?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that correct, that your husband was named Milisav Milovanovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that correct, that he was born on 18th February 1950?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that correct, that you got married in 1977?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, witness, can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, where did he
8 work, your husband? Where did he work before the war started?
9 A. He worked at the mine in Sase.
10 Q. And until when he stayed working there?
11 A. Until 1992.
12 Q. Do you know if at the time when the war started your husband was
13 enlisted for military service too?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And he used to stay at your village, or he went somewhere else
16 to -- for military duties?
17 A. He remained in the village.
18 Q. Do you recall if your husband was -- he ever left your house to
19 live somewhere else?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, how was your relationship with
22 your husband?
23 A. It was excellent, as good as it can get.
24 Q. By the time when the war started, can you tell the Trial Chamber,
25 what was the ethnic composition in your village?
1 A. There was mixed population, the Muslims and Serbs living
3 Q. And they continued to live together after the war started?
4 A. Yes, they did, until April 1992, I believe.
5 Q. What happened after April 1992?
6 A. The Muslims moved out to Srebrenica, and the Serbs remained in
8 Q. Can you recall when was the first attack -- when was it that the
9 first attack occurred against the village of Sase?
10 A. Sometime in late May, there was some shooting. I jumped out the
11 window and broke my leg. But this was just an attack of small intensity.
12 Q. And then, I suppose, you returned back to your village.
13 A. Yes, I returned to the village. And in late October, I was in
14 hospital; rather, I was in hospital and I returned in late October.
15 Q. And what happened in December 1992?
16 A. In December we were forced to pull out of Sase. We came under
17 attack in Sase. Bjelovac fell. This was on the 16th. And it was across
18 the hill that we pulled out in the direction of Bratunac.
19 Q. And did you stay, you and your husband, together in Bratunac?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what happened there, after?
22 A. I went to Serbia to see my children. The children were in Serbia.
23 Upon my return, I found my husband, who was assigned to Glogova to provide
24 security for the road. I never saw him again.
25 Q. Did you try to find out what happened?
1 A. I tried to find out. They told me he was captured.
2 Q. Who told you about that?
3 A. My husband's brother, Svetozar, told me so.
4 Q. Do you know how he came to know about that?
5 A. He set out to take some food to Milisav, and then he found out
6 that Milisav had called upon him, Svetozar, also to surrender.
7 Q. Did he surrender?
8 A. No, he didn't.
9 MR. DORIA: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P39, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't read this.
11 MR. DORIA:
12 Q. Witness, I will help you to understand what is said there. The
13 translation is --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: What did you -- what does the witness have, a
15 text -- a document in English? Oh, in B/C/S. So what's the problem? Why
16 cannot she read it? Is it because it's too small?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see it. It's too small, the
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Doria, or your case manager, can we have it on
20 Sanction, and can we blow it up a bit, zoom ...
21 Usher, I think you will need to put it either on computer evidence
22 or -- I don't know with regard to the witness what you have to do but ...
23 Oh, I see, I don't blame her. I didn't know it was handwritten.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, if you can read it, it's okay. If you can't
1 read it, it's okay as well. Don't worry about it.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't read the handwriting.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. What I suggest, Mr. Doria, is that you
4 start reading in English, and the interpreters will translate into B/C/S,
5 and that way she will know what the contents of the documents are.
6 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right? I'm sorry you have to do this.
8 Otherwise, I'll do it myself. It's up to you.
9 MR. DORIA: I can do that, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. Doria.
11 MR. DORIA:
12 Q. Witness, do you recall the date of capture of your husband?
13 A. Yes, 24th December 1992.
14 Q. Is that correct, that your husband was born in Obadi?
15 A. Yes. Sase, Obadi.
16 Q. Is it correct that he had eight years of military school?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness, you already told us that he used to work for a mining
19 company in Sase since 1970. Is that correct, that he was a skilled
20 flotation worker?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that correct, too, that your maiden name is Ostojic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DORIA: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P48 -- P458, please,
1 page 46.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't make this out either.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about it, madam. We'll find the
4 solution to that.
5 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Doria.
6 MR. DORIA:
7 Q. Witness, is that correct, that your husband was a son of Radoje
8 and Slavojka Daganovic from Kostanovka?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that correct, that you yourself are from Bukava Gelva [phoen]?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that correct, that your husband had five brothers, one
13 Svetozar, born in 1947 --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- and a second -- the second, Stanislav, born in 1952?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the third, Miodrag, born in 1954?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the fourth, Dobrislav, born in 1957?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And Predrag, born in 1960?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Witness, after you --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Doria. Judge Eser.
25 JUDGE ESER: Before we leave this exhibit, could you give an
1 explanation where this document is from, P49, because it cannot be
2 recognised, where it comes from. Who is the author of the document?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who wrote it.
4 JUDGE ESER: I'm asking the Prosecutor, Mr. Doria.
5 MR. DORIA: Exhibit P458 is -- we think that it was a war diary.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have some more information on this, when it
7 was tendered into the evidence?
8 MR. DI FAZIO: If I may be of assistance, if Your Honours please.
9 I don't have Racine Manas's log here. I can look that matter up, and
10 perhaps later in the proceedings I can convey the information to Mr. Doria
11 and assist Your Honour with that inquiry. That would be the primary --
12 the immediate source of information as to where it came from. And I can
13 also see if there's any other evidence that the Prosecution has presented,
14 or may be in a position to present, regarding its origins.
15 JUDGE ESER: But this relates only to 458.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
17 JUDGE ESER: How about P49?
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I can do the same, the same exercise with
20 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria, you may proceed, please.
23 MR. DORIA: Yes, if I may add, please. Exhibit P49 is also a
24 document in our record that we think it was written by someone who
25 conducted an interrogation of Mr. Milisav Milovanovic. But we will find
1 out more and give this information to Your Honours.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 MR. DORIA:
4 Q. Witness, after knowing about the capture of your husband, did you
5 have any -- had you any communications with him?
6 A. No. No, I wasn't able to.
7 Q. Did you try to find thereafter what happened to him?
8 A. Yes, I did. I found out that he was in prison in Srebrenica.
9 Dostana Filipovic told me that after her exchange. She told me that
10 Milisav was in prison. Later on, sometime in February, when Ratko Nikolic
11 was released, he told me that Milisav had been killed in prison.
12 Q. Witness, let's go back a little bit. Concerning Dostana
13 Filipovic, do you know who Dostana came to know about that?
14 A. She saw Milisav in prison. That's what she told me. She told me
15 she had seen him in Srebrenica, in the prison there, and at that time he
16 was still alive.
17 Q. Did Dostana know your husband before the war?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did Dostana also know what was the nickname of your husband?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was the nickname of your husband?
22 A. Mico.
23 Q. Did she tell you more about the conditions in the prison where
24 your husband was?
25 A. She told me that when she had seen Milisav, he had been all black
1 and blue. He had been beaten. The conditions were extremely poor, and he
2 was not even allowed to look up. People said, when Milisav saw Dostana in
3 prison, he was not even strong enough to turn around and face her, because
4 he had been beaten that badly.
5 Q. Do you remember when Dostana told you about that?
6 A. No, I can't remember. I think it was in late January, but I can't
7 say for sure. I met Dostana in Bratunac. I heard that she had been
8 exchanged. So I went there to see her, but I can't remember the date.
9 Q. The second person who told you things about your husband was
10 Ratko. That's what you said, isn't it?
11 A. Da.
12 MR. JONES: Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Jones.
14 MR. JONES: If I may, we have an objection concerning this piece
15 of evidence, and I can take it very shortly. It's basically this: We've
16 checked the evidence of the transcripts of Ratko Nikolic, and he wasn't
17 actually asked, wasn't even asked about whether Mico died in the cell. In
18 those circumstances, our objection is that, when Ratko Nikolic was here,
19 on oath, giving evidence, that where he's not asked about that, that it's
20 wrong, in those circumstances, to get the evidence secondhand, because if
21 Ratko Nikolic had been asked, he might have said, "No, I never saw any
22 such thing." That's our objection. I can appreciate that Your Honours
23 may not wish to either take my word for it or review the transcripts of
24 Ratko Nikolic's evidence. So it's really, just to get on the record that
25 that's our objection, and that if subsequently you agree that he wasn't
1 asked about whether Mico died in the cell or not, and that goes obviously
2 to the weight of this evidence, and we submit that it's inadmissible,
3 because it's hearsay. But where -- the part -- the person who had the
4 evidence was here, was not asked, and could have given that evidence. I
5 just want to place that on the record.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken, Mr. Jones. Obviously I look at it more
7 as a submission than an objection. Obviously, I cannot stop the witness
8 from saying what, according to her, Ratko Nikolic told her. And
9 obviously, when we put everything in a basket, if what you have submitted
10 is correct, in other words, that Ratko Nikolic never mentioned anything or
11 because he was never asked about this, that, of course, will be taken into
13 MR. JONES: Thank you. I just wanted to put it on the record.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: But we can't really consider it, at least according
15 to me, as an objection as such in the true procedural sense of the word.
16 MR. JONES: Yes. I mean, I do put it forward as a point of
17 admissibility. It's for Your Honours to take as --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, but again ...
19 Yes, Mr. Doria, you may proceed.
20 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. When did you meet Ratko Nikolic?
22 A. When I met him, you mean?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Around the 26th of February, or thereabouts. When he was released
25 from prison and exchanged, I went straight to the house in which he was
1 staying with family, in Bratunac. He told me that Milisav had been badly
2 beaten. And once he was already dead, they wrapped him up in a blanket
3 and took him to the health centre.
4 Q. Witness, do you recall being called by someone else to give
5 information concerning your husband?
6 A. Yes. I don't remember.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, you can -- no damage. You can go direct.
8 Just -- you can lead the witness.
9 MR. DORIA: Yes.
10 Q. In your written statement, you say that people from the Red Cross
11 came to see you, asking information about your husband; is that correct?
12 A. Oh, you mean that. Yes. Yes, that's true. They asked questions.
13 I gave a statement, what sort of clothes he had on, that sort of thing,
14 how tall he was, how much he weighed. I gave two statements for the Red
16 Q. Did they show you anything, like clothes, shoes, photographs of
17 such things?
18 A. Yes. They came over to Sase to see me, and they brought
19 photographs, files with photographs, in order for me to try and identify
20 some of the clothing, but I couldn't.
21 Q. Did you inquire before them whether -- where those photos were
22 from? Was that a result of an exhumation that they conducted?
23 A. Yes, there had been an exhumation, and they took photographs.
24 Q. Was there anyone else who gave you information concerning your
1 A. No, not that I remember.
2 Q. Do you remember a certain Bosniak coming to see your brother,
3 informing him about your husband?
4 A. Yes. Yes. This Bosniak used to work with my husband before the
5 war. He met my brother in Bratunac. He told him that he knew the
6 location of Milisav's grave. I went to the police. And those people came
7 over from, I'm not sure what it's called, the digging people. They looked
8 all over the place, but they couldn't find Milisav in the location that
9 the other man had given.
10 Q. Do you know why you couldn't find the body of your husband there?
11 Is that because the Bosniak lied to you or --
12 MR. JONES: I don't think that's an appropriate question.
13 MR. DORIA: Okay.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, could you rephrase your question, Mr. Doria,
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Bosniak was lying. He took
17 us to a place that was not the right place. Milisav wasn't there when we
18 came. And then he started, sort of, trying to weasel his way out of it.
19 He said he no longer knew where Milisav was. He said he had seen the pit
20 dug, and he said he didn't know who had dug the pit, but that Milisav had
21 already died and that he had been buried there. But he was sort of
22 starting to bend about the bush.
23 MR. DORIA:
24 Q. Is there anyone else that gave you information about your husband,
25 apart from those you mentioned?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. My neighbours, Bosniaks, all of them returning, claim that Milisav
2 had been buried in Srebrenica, at the cemetery near the church. They all
3 know that Milisav had been killed in prison.
4 Q. Based upon the information that you got from people, different
5 people telling you, do you believe that your husband is dead?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What makes you so sure that he is dead and not hiding, for
8 example, somewhere?
9 A. Why would he be hiding for 12 years? He has no where to hide for
10 that long. He is dead, I'm sure of that.
11 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no more questions.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Doria.
13 Madam Vidovic. Again, the usual recommendation to allow a pause
14 between question and answer, because now, madam, you will both be speaking
15 in Serbo-Croat and you need to allow a space of time, an interval of time,
16 between question and answer so that the interpreters can translate to us
17 in English, and to some also in French. Thank you.
18 Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.
19 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. Milovanovic.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Mrs. Milovanovic, it's correct, isn't it, that Sase is a small
23 village. Before the war it had about 550 inhabitants, didn't it?
24 A. Yes. It's true that it's a small village, but I can't be sure
25 about the number of inhabitants.
1 Q. Would you agree with me that before the war, Sase was
2 predominantly Muslim? About 440 Muslims lived there.
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. But you would agree, wouldn't you, that Muslims were, by far, the
5 predominant group in relation to the Serbs in Sase.
6 A. I don't know. I have no idea what the predominant group was.
7 Q. Thank you. You remember that you spoke to the OTP in July 2004.
8 You do remember that, don't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You stated at the time that the war in Sase had begun on the 17th
11 and 18th of December, when the Muslims attacked. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's what I said. The Muslims attacked earlier as well, on
13 the 12th of July as well, I mean they attacked Sase.
14 Q. Very well. You said that at the beginning of the war, the Muslims
15 left Sase. You said the Muslims went away.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is that true?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Then you said the Muslims started to attack Sase from the
20 surrounding villages.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Why would the Muslims leave and go to the neighbouring villages to
23 live there as refugees only to be able to attack their own homes in Sase
24 from there? My submission to you is 80 per cent of the houses there were
25 Muslim anyway.
1 A. They weren't attacking their own homes, they were attacking Serb
3 Q. The truth is quite different from what you're saying, isn't it,
4 Mrs. Milovanovic?
5 A. [No interpretation].
6 Q. The Muslims were being continually attacked in April and May of
7 1992, weren't they?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you agree with me that between the 9th of May, 1992, from that
10 date on, in Sase there was a Territorial Defence unit made up of the local
11 Serb population under the command of Milorad Todorovic, and it was
12 referred to as the Sase Territorial Defence unit?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Your husband was a commander of that unit, wasn't it?
15 A. It's true that he was mobilised, but I have no idea who the
16 commander was.
17 Q. This unit literally massacred the Muslim population of Sase on the
18 22nd of May, 1992, and burned down their homes. This is something that
19 was happening near where you lived. You were in a position to know,
20 weren't you?
21 A. No, I was in hospital at that time. I went to the hospital on the
22 20th of May.
23 Q. But, Mrs. Milovanovic, you did say a while ago that you went to
24 the hospital in late May.
25 A. Yes, that's quite correct, late May, about the 20th of May.
1 Q. Very well. As early as April 1992, while you were still in Sase,
2 and in early May 1992, there was a notorious camp in Sase where Muslims
3 were being detained; do you agree with me?
4 A. No, that's -- I don't know.
5 Q. But the camp was in the vicinity of the Sase mine where your
6 husband used to work, wasn't it?
7 A. I don't know. My husband continued to work until as late as
9 Q. But, Mrs. Milovanovic, Sase is a very small village, and all Serbs
10 knew about this, didn't they?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. What's more, Mrs. Milovanovic, the local Serbs were, in fact, in
13 charge of the camp and they mistreated the detainees. This is something
14 that people talked about, wasn't it?
15 A. I have no idea.
16 Q. Mrs. Milovanovic, can you tell the Chamber, please, what the
17 distance is between the hamlet of Gradina and your own home?
18 A. The distance is not great.
19 Q. Can you specify, please?
20 A. About 1 kilometre, I believe.
21 Q. Did you at any point hear that, on the 20th of May, which is the
22 day that you referred to, that on the 20th of May, alone, in one day, 53
23 Muslims were arrested in Gradina and sent to the camp?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know that only 11 of them survived that day? I'm talking
1 about your neighbours from Sase.
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Did you at any time hear that, not far from you, 18 small children
4 from Sase were killed, natives of Sase?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Mrs. Milovanovic, this could not be concealed. I'm sure Serbs
7 talked about this, didn't they?
8 A. No, not among the women. We were in our homes. We were
9 housewives. This is not the sort of things that we would be told.
10 Q. Mrs. Milovanovic, your information on this should be far more
11 comprehensive, I should say. You were, after all, a member of the army of
12 Republika Srpska in 1992, weren't you?
13 A. No. I returned from hospital, from Serbia, in late October, and I
14 stuck to my kitchen.
15 Q. You were a member of the 4th Sase Battalion of the Bratunac
16 Brigade, were you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you say yes?
19 A. Yes, I said yes. Late October.
20 Q. Mrs. Milovanovic, I'll ask you something else now. Was your
21 husband born in Obadi or in Andrici?
22 A. Andrici.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood that a
24 while ago the transcript registered that he was born in Obadi.
25 A. He was registered, being on the books as being born in Obadi, but
1 actually he was born in Andrici.
2 Q. Which hamlet did you live in prior to the 24th of December, 1992?
3 A. Sase.
4 Q. In a hamlet belonging to Sase, or in Sase itself?
5 A. In Sase.
6 Q. You told us today that your husband's brother, Svetozar
7 Milovanovic, told you that your husband had been captured on the 24th of
8 December, 1992, in Glogova; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said that your husband had gone to Glogova on military
11 business; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Your husband was no deserter, was he?
14 A. No.
15 Q. He did not go to Glogova as a form of punishment, did he?
16 A. I have no idea why he went there, but he was off. That's all.
17 Q. But he was no deserter, was he?
18 A. No, he wasn't.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,
20 please. I would like to know the witness P458, page 03593169. It
21 continues on the next page.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The corresponding English page?
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's the same exhibit
24 that the witness has looking at a while ago.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the page in English? Because if we're to
1 follow in English, we need to know which page we are supposed to go to.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: Thirty-one.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thirty-one, okay.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mrs. Milovanovic, a while ago the Prosecutor showed you
6 information that relates to your husband. On the page with the ERN
7 03593170, it reads: "Punished as a deserter and forced to go to Glogova."
8 That is not correct, is it?
9 A. No, it is not correct.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I merely wish to draw
11 your attention now that we have an objection that we raised with respect
12 to the authenticity.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. One moment. How do you -- at least
14 from the English text, I cannot connect it to Milisav Milovanovic, I
15 connect it to another person. I won't mention the name.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this logbook is a
18 little confusing, that's true. But if you look at the original text, it
19 reads: "Milovanovic, Milisav," the date is the 13th of January, and then
20 it continues on page 46. And then on page 47, and it reads exactly as I
21 said: "Arrested in Glogova. Punished as a deserter and forced to go to
22 Glogova." This is clear enough in the Bosnian language. But I've just
23 looked at the English, and I don't think this has been translated. We can
24 have the Bosnian version on the ELMO, please, perhaps that can be of
25 assistance to us, so the interpreters can see for themselves.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous interpretation continues] ... say, madam,
2 I would think, at least trying to put two and two together here, that it
3 could never refer to Milisav Milovanovic, who was married, but to
4 Stanislav Milovanovic. In fact, what we have on page 31, the very first
5 three words is "he is single," and then "arrested in Glogova, as
6 punishment for desertion deported to Glogova." So if he was single, then
7 it couldn't be Milisav Milovanovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at any rate, when I
9 look at the B/C/S version, that's what I read. However, can we please
10 have the original provided. And this is the reason why we were adamant on
11 having the original version used right from the outset. I'm just trying
12 to point out some discrepancies in this logbook. This logbook contains a
13 number of facts that are simply not true. I do have further reasons for
14 wanting to use the original text. For the time being, my submission is
15 that this war logbook is simply not an authentic document. At any rate, I
16 was just confronting the witness with a fact. But I can put my question
17 like this, if you like:
18 Q. Witness, please, what about Mr. Stanislav, was he a deserter?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Stanislav Milovanovic, your brother-in-law, was no deserter
21 either, was he?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Mrs. Milovanovic, your husband was also a member of the Bratunac
24 Brigade, was he not?
25 A. No.
1 Q. This statement that you gave to the OTP that I mentioned a while
2 ago contains the following statement: "The last time I saw him in
3 Bratunac, he was wearing a camouflage uniform, underneath which he was
4 wearing a pair of jeans and a blue and white sweater."
5 Is that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This is the sort of uniform that was worn by other soldiers from
8 his unit; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When was your husband given this uniform?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. But do you remember whether it was at the beginning of the war or
13 at some later stage, when you had already returned from hospital?
14 A. When I returned from hospital, I saw the uniform.
15 Q. So already in October 1992, he had this camouflage uniform.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Svetozar Milovanovic did not witness the capture of his
18 brother, did he?
19 A. No. He only heard about it when -- that he had been calling upon
21 Q. He heard that his brother had been calling upon him to surrender?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Ms. Milovanovic, is it true -- it is true that you are receiving
24 an allowance, a survivor's benefit, on behalf of your husband from the
25 army of Republika Srpska.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I would like to show you a document.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could I have the usher's
4 assistance to place D45 on the ELMO, the list of the combatants killed
5 belonging to the army of Republika Srpska, from 1992 to 1996.
6 THE INTERPRETER: From the Bratunac Brigade, that is.
7 Interpreter's correction.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the document please be placed
9 on the ELMO, specifically the page containing the number 369, that is,
10 from item 343 onwards.
11 Q. Ms. Milovanovic, please look at the name under item number 369.
12 It reads: "Radoje Milisav Milovanovic, that is, born on the 18th of
13 February, 1960, in Sase," date of his being killed, 24th of December,
14 1992, in the village of Glogova. And as the date at which this fact was
15 established, it is specified here, the 1st of June, 1993.
16 Your father's -- your husband's father's name was Radoje, wasn't
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The 18th of February, 1960 is the date of your husband's birth;
20 isn't it so?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We keep receiving the interpretation of
23 1960, when it's 1950, I'm sure.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That's correct.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Ms. Milovanovic, I will show you another document belonging to the
3 army of Republika Srpska.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could I have the usher's
5 assistance. Please place on the ELMO a document by the military post of
6 Bratunac, number 02075870, dated 23 May 1993, entitled "Lists of Villages
7 Torched in the Municipality of Bratunac, Lists of Those Wounded and Killed
8 by Settlements, and Witness Statements."
9 Q. Could the witness please look at the page 02075889, the list of
10 those killed in Glogova, and item 11: Milisav, son of Radoje Milovanovic,
11 1950, Sase, date of him getting killed 24th of December, 1992."
12 Ms. Milovanovic, do you not agree that these are background data
13 belonging to your husband.
14 A. I don't agree with the date of his death, 24th.
15 Q. My question concerns something else. Do you not agree that these
16 are personal data of your husband's?
17 A. Yes, they are.
18 Q. This document was produced four, five months after the
19 disappearance of your husband, the 23rd of May, 1993, and it says that he
20 got killed on the 24th of December, in Glogova, and not in the Srebrenica
21 prison. Don't you agree this is what the document says?
22 A. He was captured on the 24th, in 1992, and was killed in Srebrenica
23 on the 24th of February, 1993.
24 Q. Do you not agree that the documents I showed to you indicate that
25 your husband was killed on the 24th of December, 1992, in Srebrenica?
1 That's what the documents show.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Ms. Milovanovic, these are two separate official documents of the
4 army of Republika Srpska, of the Bratunac military post, talking about
5 your husband getting killed on 24 December 1992. The Bratunac military
6 post had no other data on his death prior to this date here.
7 A. Yes, that's correct, because he was filed as missing. And because
8 of my allowance that I was supposed to receive, and I was entitled to
9 receive, I had to report his date of disappearance. And since he
10 disappeared in Glogova, I had to report that particular date, that he had
11 disappeared in Glogova on the 24th. It was later on that we found out
12 that he was killed in February 1993.
13 Q. Ms. Milovanovic, I put to you that until that date, you had no
14 other information at your disposal. Had you had other information, you
15 would have forwarded it to the brigade that you were a member of, wouldn't
16 you have?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. You would have inquired after your husband through the brigade
19 that both you and he were a member of -- were members of.
20 A. I did inquire after him, but I was unable to find anything out.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be
22 assigned an exhibit number, the list of those killed in Glogova.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there's no objection from
25 the Prosecution, but I wonder if we might, at some stage, be given a full
1 copy of it.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think that will be taken care of by the
3 Defence. I see Madam Vidovic nodding.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. But I
5 just wish to say that we received this document in the latest disclosure
6 batch, some 10 days ago, from the Prosecutor. But by all means, we shall
7 provide a copy at once.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you should have a copy of this.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I retract my statement. In fact, there was a copy
10 here after all and I didn't see it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's give it an exhibit number. D?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be D172.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: D172.
14 Judge Eser.
15 JUDGE ESER: Ms. Vidovic, I had the usual question which I asked
16 the Prosecution before. Who has produced this document, D172? Because in
17 the English version, it only speaks of military post number 784, nothing
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This document, according to what
20 we -- the information we received from the Prosecutor as to the source,
21 was drafted by the Bratunac military post. It is a document belonging to
22 the Bratunac military post. And the paper was drafted by Dragan
23 Azivanovic, a clerk working for the Bratunac military post. And here you
24 have the reference number and the date when the document was produced.
25 However, this is just one document out of a large group of documents
1 produced by the Bratunac military post. And this document here that we
2 received through disclosure from the Prosecutor is just one of those.
3 Your Honours, this perhaps should not be discussed in the presence
4 of the witness, but I would like to invoke again Rule 68, because this is
5 something that came under that disclosure.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously you can get Ms. Manas to enlighten us on
8 Yes, any further questions, Madam Vidovic?
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few more. I believe that I
10 will finish very soon.
11 Q. Ms. Milovanovic, you said that you had received information about
12 your captivity of your husband in Srebrenica from Ratko Nikolic. It is
13 true, is it not, that Ratko Nikolic did not know your husband from before
14 the war?
15 A. Yes, that's right, he didn't know him.
16 Q. It is true, is it not, that immediately after his exchange, Ratko
17 Nikolic went to hospital, and you could not talk to him?
18 A. I talked to him right away, as soon as he was released.
19 Q. Ratko Nikolic did not tell you that he saw your husband die.
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. Dostana Filipovic did not tell you anything about your husband's
22 death in the prison.
23 A. Yes, that's right. Dostana didn't tell me this; she just told me
24 that she saw him in the prison.
25 Q. Therefore, you have no reliable information as to his death in the
1 prison, except for what you had heard.
2 A. Exactly. I only know what I heard.
3 Q. You did have some information about the possible sites of burial
4 of your late husband in Srebrenica.
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. All these sites were dug up and searched.
7 A. Not all of them. There are some more sites that will probably be
8 processed this spring.
9 Q. I'm referring to the sites which you were told could be the places
10 where your late husband's body might be found. That's what I'm talking
12 A. No. There's one more location --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name of the
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I put to you that this particular site was also dug up.
17 A. No, there's another one that -- this one was processed, but I'm
18 not referring to this one.
19 Q. Whatever the case, Ms. Milovanovic, your late husband's body has
20 not been found in Srebrenica to date. That's the truth, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
23 more questions.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
25 Is there re-examination? I take it not?
1 MR. DORIA: Yes, Your Honour, just a couple of questions.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, Mr. Doria.
3 Re-examined by Mr. Doria:
4 Q. Witness, you told us that your husband was born in Obadi.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. I think that's clear enough. She said
6 that he's registered as having been born in Obadi, but in actual fact he
7 was born in Andrici or --
8 MR. DORIA: Andrici.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Andrici. So for the Tribunal, for the Trial
10 Chamber, that's clear enough. You don't need to waste time on that.
11 MR. DORIA: We have no more questions. Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to have been so abrupt, but it's just -- it's
13 clear enough for us.
14 Do you have any questions? Do you have any questions? I don't
15 have any questions either.
16 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll deal with this later, shortly.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- your testimony ends here. You will now be
20 escorted by Madam Usher out of this courtroom, and after that you will
21 receive all the assistance that you require to make it possible for you to
22 return home as early as possible.
23 On behalf of the Trial Chamber and of the Tribunal, on behalf of
24 Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and on my own behalf, I should like to
25 thank you for having accepted to come over and give testimony in this
1 case. And before you leave, on behalf, again, of everyone present here, I
2 should like to wish you a safe journey back home.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I just add
4 something, in the end?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, madam.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask Mr. Oric to tell
7 me where my husband's bones are. He probably knows where they are.
8 MR. JONES: I think that's a very unfair comment.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. Okay, Mr. Oric has heard you, has
10 heard what you said, madam.
11 Okay, you will be escorted out now of the courtroom. I can't
12 address Mr. Oric in the courtroom or elsewhere.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So the first thing we need to tell you is that we
15 have gone through your reply to the Prosecution's response to your motion,
16 and have considered the suggestion or -- let's call it suggestion, by the
17 Prosecution to be considered -- to have considered the possibility of a
18 response to the reply to the response to the motion. Our decision is in
19 the negative. The matter ends there. We have already started studying
20 the import of the motion and the response and the reply, and hopefully
21 next week we should be in a position to hand down a decision. If we need
22 any further help from, assistance from you, obviously we'll give you time
23 for some oral presentations, but that's about it. And I don't think,
24 things being what they are at the moment, unless we come to that decision,
25 that there will be any further discussion on this.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you for that clarification, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Just in reply to Judge Eser's question earlier
4 during the course of this witness' testimony. At the moment what I can
5 tell you is P49 was tendered on the 8th of October -- 8th of October, last
6 year. Apparently the source is Dan Perry from Major Ranko Todorovic, and
7 it's one of the documents from the Sokolac -- what's been referred to in
8 this case as the Sokolac collection. And it was put in evidence through
9 Ms. Manas. P458, apparently I wasn't here in court on the day, but it was
10 produced in evidence through Nikola Popovic on the 9th of December 2004,
11 so the surrounding testimony you'll find on that particular date.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any further business to transact? None? We
13 will not be sitting tomorrow, we will be sitting on Monday. We will be
14 sitting in Monday, and I don't remember whether it's in the morning or the
15 afternoon. In the afternoon, yes, because I'm sitting on another case in
16 the morning. Yes. I thank you, and have a nice weekend.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.20 a.m.
18 To be reconvened on Monday, the 31st day of
19 January, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.