Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4978

1 Monday, 14 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody, and you, in particular,

6 Mr. Registrar. Can I ask you to call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in

11 your own language?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

13 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you. Please take a

15 seat.

16 Mr. Wubben, appearances for the Prosecution.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour. My name is Jan Wubben,

18 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with co-counsel,

19 Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 And also good morning to the Defence team.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

24 morning to my learned friends and colleagues. My name is Vasvija Vidovic.

25 Together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. We have with

Page 4979

1 us our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff

2 Roberts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

4 and your team.

5 Any preliminaries before we start with the new witness?

6 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

8 MR. JONES: Your Honour, just one, which is that, as I mentioned

9 to my learned friend, with this witness, who may be controversial, may

10 give his opinions on a number of subjects, we would appreciate if my

11 learned friend would not lead at all once we get to his arrival in

12 Srebrenica. I believe it's a matter we have a right to insist on, and we

13 would insist in this instance.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, of course. The practice is, and I made

15 it clear from the very word go, that we would -- although, strictly

16 speaking, leading questions are not procedurally correct, we allow them

17 here, provided there is no objection. The moment there is an objection, I

18 mean, we stick to the Rules --

19 MR. JONES: Because I don't want to be --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But do --

21 MR. JONES: What I mean is, because I don't want to be jumping up

22 the whole time, I made that clear to my friend this morning. Obviously,

23 the background matters, where he was born he --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, I'm not referring to that.

25 Mr. Wubben, who is leading this witness?

Page 4980

1 MR. WUBBEN: I am, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And I'm also -- we've discussed this a

3 little bit this morning, Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and myself. We

4 would like you to stick to the basics -- to the point and try to restrict

5 your questions to what is basically relevant to this case. On the other

6 hand, we also want to make it clear that we will not be imposing any

7 deadlines as regards this witness. In other words, you will have all the

8 time you require, both of you, both Defence and Prosecution, of course.

9 On the other hand, that doesn't mean that you can go on and on ad

10 infinitum, okay? Good.

11 Could you bring the witness in, please.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Mujkanovic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we proceed any further, I want to make sure

16 that you are receiving interpretation in your own language.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Welcome to this Tribunal. I am

19 the Presiding Judge. My name is Carmel Agius, and I come from the island

20 of Malta. At my right is Judge Hans Henrik Brydensholt from Denmark; to

21 my left, Judge Albin Eser from Germany. We are presiding over this case

22 against Naser Oric.

23 You are about to give evidence, and according to our Rules, before

24 you do so, you are bound to make a solemn declaration, a solemn

25 declaration equivalent to an oath, and tantamount to an oath, such that

Page 4981

1 you will be testifying the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

2 truth. The text of the solemn declaration is going to be handed now by

3 Madam Usher. Please read it out to -- read it out loud, and that will be

4 your solemn undertaking with us.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

10 The procedure here is a very simple one, more or less, the same as

11 it is in domestic jurisdictions. You have been summoned here as a witness

12 by the Prosecution, and accordingly, Mr. Wubben, who is lead counsel for

13 the Prosecution in this case, will ask you a series of questions. He will

14 then be followed by Mr. Jones, who is co-counsel in the Defence team for

15 Naser Oric. Your testimony is expected to last a few days, so I have to

16 tell you that if, at any time, you feel tired and you need a break, please

17 do let me know and I'll discuss with my two colleagues and decide what to

18 do.

19 However, your responsibility, your foremost responsibility is to

20 answer all questions, irrespective of who is putting these questions, in

21 other words, whether the Prosecution or the Defence. Your responsibility

22 is to answer those questions, all of them, independently of where they

23 come from, truthfully and fully and to the best of your ability.

24 Have I made myself clear?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you have.

Page 4982

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 Mr. Wubben.

3 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. In the meanwhile, you might

4 have noticed that co-counsel Ms. Joanne Richardson joined the Prosecution

5 team, and further, as an issue, there are maps upon your general request

6 to hand them over prior to the start. There are two maps available for

7 you. The maps are kind of divided into the maps from Tuzla to Srebrenica,

8 so that means west to east, and Zvornik to Zepa, which means north to

9 south. I tender these on your behalf.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

11 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Examined by Mr. Wubben:

13 Q. Good morning, Dr. Mujkanovic. I will start my questions now.

14 Please confirm for the Judges your name -- your full name is Nedret

15 Mujkanovic.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you were born on the 30th of May, 1961, in Brcko, Bosnia?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Your ethnic origin is Bosniak?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Your current occupation is plastic surgeon in the University

22 Medical Centre, Tuzla?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Your former occupation is resident pathologist?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4983

1 Q. You have participated in politics as a member of the local Tuzla

2 parliament from 1990 until 1997?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Regarding military service, in 1980 and 1981, you served one year

5 compulsory military service with the JNA in Slovenia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Your educational background is that, after the army, you attended

8 medical training at the university for six years?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And after those medical studies, you were a general practitioner?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And after that, you specialised in pathology?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you conducted autopsies in the hospital in Tuzla in the field

15 of training of students?

16 A. Among other things, yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this latter phase in his career, I think he

18 better identify it within a time frame. When did he become a pathologist,

19 a qualified pathologist, and when did he start conducting these autopsies?

20 Which year?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1988, I worked as an assistant at

22 the medical school in the pathology department. I trained students in

23 pathology and pathological anatomy. Part of their training was also to

24 conduct autopsies. One of the drills used for training medical students

25 included autopsy, and I stayed in that capacity until March 1992. I

Page 4984

1 worked as an assistant. From March 1992 on, I worked as a surgeon. I

2 have been a surgeon to this day.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4985











11 Page 4985 redacted. Private session.















Page 4986











11 Page 4986 redacted. Private session.















Page 4987

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, now.

21 Thank you, witness, and thank you, Mr. Wubben.


23 Q. I'll proceed, Dr. Mujkanovic. Is it correct that in May 1992, in

24 the Tuzla area, a war field hospital needed to be set up?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4988

1 Q. And did you volunteer to go?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you also set up war field hospitals in June 1992?

4 A. Yes. It's actually the same hospital. It was in Kalesija

5 municipality, about 20 kilometres to the east of Tuzla.

6 Q. And there came a time in July 1992 that you met with

7 Professor Dr. Radevic, and that he clarified to you that he had been

8 tasked by the War Presidency of Tuzla to resolve the problem of having to

9 send a surgeon to Srebrenica; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And were you considered as a candidate for that job?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was your response to this request positive?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Why were you willing to volunteer for such a mission?

16 A. In Srebrenica, there was a difficult situation related to

17 accommodating the wounded and injured persons. At that point Srebrenica

18 was an isolated enclave, as it remained throughout the war. There was no

19 possibility of transporting the wounded and injured on to Tuzla Hospital.

20 As a result of that, people died and succumbed to their injuries. A war

21 field hospital needed to be set up following the war surgical doctrines in

22 order to be able to deal with the problem of the wounded and injured

23 people as soon as possible in the Srebrenica area and the mid-Podrinje

24 area.

25 I volunteered, or rather, I accepted an offer from Dr. Bozina

Page 4989

1 Radevic, who was my boss. He was head of surgery at the University

2 Medical Centre in Tuzla. And in July, I started my preparations to leave

3 for Srebrenica, or rather, to be infiltrated into the Srebrenica area,

4 which at the time, as I said, was entirely surrounded and isolated. It

5 was impossible --

6 Q. Thank you. Dr. Mujkanovic, here I have to stop you because I have

7 another question. What was your projected function and tasking regarding

8 that war field hospital -- that war hospital? I'm sorry.

9 A. Primarily, to establish a war hospital based on the principles of

10 the war surgical doctrine. That means to establish a hospital to function

11 at war, not in peace. Then to establish a well-functioning reception of

12 the wounded, the moment they are wounded, where they're wounded, their

13 transportation to the hospital, according to the rules of the modern

14 medicine. The hospital had to be equipped with all the surgical

15 instruments and the necessary implements, and more surgeons had to be

16 enabled to arrive in the territory of Srebrenica in order to provide for

17 the needs of some 80 to 100.000 people who were present in the area at the

18 time, from Kamenica to Zepa.

19 Q. Thank you. Next question: Was the war hospital in Srebrenica

20 planned to function within the organisation of the Srebrenica armed

21 forces?

22 A. It was not discussed at that time how it was supposed to function,

23 but since early on, I worked as a war surgeon at the Kalesija war

24 hospital. There was a rule for the war hospitals to provide care both for

25 the wounded members of the army - at the time it was Territorial Defence;

Page 4990

1 later on to become the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina - as well as

2 civilians who would be wounded during an attack of shelling or an air raid

3 and requiring surgical intervention.

4 Q. Did you, after preparation, actually leave for Srebrenica on the

5 22nd of July, 1992?

6 A. On the 22nd of July, 1992, an action commenced with the aim of

7 infiltrating a medical team with people who were carrying the entire

8 medical equipment necessary for the setting up of the war hospital, in the

9 direction of Srebrenica. However, this did not happen on the 22nd of

10 July, or on the subsequent days, because it was impossible for the entire

11 team to be infiltrated through the enemy lines in the area north of

12 Zvornik.

13 Q. Did Zeljko Knez, the then regional TO commander in Tuzla, assign

14 Major Nurif Rizvanovic and his 16th Muslim Brigade in his mission in order

15 to escort you and your group?

16 A. After an initial attempt to reach the area of Crni Vrh, in which

17 we were prevented in the locality of Bajkovica, because we were prevented

18 by the enemy forces, the following day I returned to the Kalesija war

19 hospital where I asked for a different sort of an attempt to be organised

20 for us to be infiltrated with the equipment necessary for establishing a

21 war hospital. We were carrying the equipment on our backs. Mr. Muharem

22 Efendic, the commander of the 4th Tactical Group, contacted the commander

23 of the Territorial Defence in Tuzla, whereupon Mr. Knez, the commander of

24 the district staff of the Tuzla Territorial Defence, assigned Nurif

25 Rizvanovic and his group to accompany us, escort us, to the free territory

Page 4991

1 of Srebrenica.

2 Q. Well, Dr. Mujkanovic, is it correct that your fourth attempt to

3 cross enemy lines was successful, and that this crossing happened on the

4 29th of July, 1992?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. After having tried, together with Nurif

6 Rizvanovic, to cross the enemy lines, it was only on our fourth successful

7 attempt to cross the enemy lines, get into the area of Crni Vrh, which was

8 behind the enemy lines and was occupied by the Serb forces at that point

9 in time, we then headed in the direction of Snagovo, which was the

10 first -- the nearest liberated area under the control of the then

11 Territorial Defence, later to become the army of BiH.

12 Q. Is it --

13 A. And that was on the 29th.

14 Q. Sorry, I have to stop you. The 29th. Is it correct that finally,

15 on the 5th of August, 1992, you left for your last part -- for the last

16 part of your trip towards Srebrenica after you reached Bosnian-held

17 territory?

18 A. Yes, that's correct. In the afternoon hours of the 5th of August,

19 heading out from the direction of Konjevic Polje, I managed to reach

20 Gornji Potocari, the village of Susnjari, together with my team, which was

21 in the area -- in the free area of Srebrenica. I have to say that, having

22 arrived at Konjevic Polje on the 4th of August, the entire unit commanded

23 by Nurif Rizvanovic in Konjevic Polje, whereas I reached Srebrenica in the

24 company of the people who headed out with me from the start, as well as

25 with those who were assigned to be our escorts and take us to Srebrenica.

Page 4992

1 Q. Whether did you arrive at Srebrenica? What date?

2 A. On the 5th of August, 1992.

3 Q. And what appeared to be how long you would stay there in

4 Srebrenica? For how many months in total?

5 A. After having made the journey, which was a very unsafe one, a very

6 risky one - our lives were continually in danger - I knew that I was going

7 to stay there until --

8 Q. Sorry, doctor. Yes, my question was, for a good understanding,

9 for how long will you stay in Srebrenica, or were you already towards the

10 answer. If so, I apologise.

11 A. You mean how long I remained in Srebrenica. I stayed there until

12 the 22nd of July, 19 -- or, rather, until the 22nd of April, 1993, after

13 the demilitarisation of the area of Srebrenica.

14 Q. Thank you. That was, indeed, my question. On your arrival, who

15 did welcome you?

16 A. I entered the area of Srebrenica in the afternoon hours, at about

17 400 p.m., and I was welcomed by members of the Srebrenica Territorial

18 Defence, who were holding the positions there, and several villagers also

19 welcomed me. I waited there for about an hour and a half until Naser

20 arrived with several other members of the Territorial Defence to take me

21 personally to Srebrenica.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Naser who? I suppose there are many Nasers in

23 Bosnia.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oric.


Page 4993

1 Q. Was this the first time you met Naser Oric?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who did accompany Naser Oric during that meeting?

4 A. At that point I didn't know anybody there. There were some 10 to

5 15 people there, men, who arrived with Naser, and they arrived on a truck.

6 It was then that I met Naser Oric for the first time, as well as Zulfo

7 Tursunovic. There were some other people among them who I got to know

8 later on and who I was frequently in touch with and socialised with. Some

9 of them were my patients, because they were eventually wounded.

10 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, what was the function, if so, of Naser Oric?

11 MR. JONES: Sorry, this is the sort of question which I was asking

12 my learned friend to avoid. I mean, firstly, there's no -- to put a

13 question like that without any foundation, we've got the story so far that

14 Mr. -- or Dr. Mujkanovic has arrived in Srebrenica and he's been asked all

15 of a sudden to cast about and guess at what Naser Oric's function was. If

16 he asks -- it's not the sort of question which I think is appropriate.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's perfectly legitimate. The witness has just

19 told us that, all of a sudden, in this particular circumstance, Naser Oric

20 appeared with a number of men, and he is being asked whether he knows what

21 function Naser Oric was filling or having on that occasion. It's a

22 perfectly legitimate question.

23 MR. JONES: If my learned friend would stick to questions of what

24 was said by the people there, what was your impression. I mean, there's

25 no indication from the evidence that's been given that this witness will

Page 4994

1 know anything about what the function is of Naser Oric at that time. He's

2 just arrived on the --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is precisely what legitimises the question,

4 this is precisely why the question is perfectly legitimate. Go ahead.

5 You were asked by Mr. Wubben to tell us whether you knew of any

6 function that Naser Oric was filling or fulfilling on that occasion, if

7 you are aware. I don't want you to speculate.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I won't speculate. I had heard of

9 Naser Oric only as I was passing on my way to Srebrenica. I didn't know

10 who the commander in Srebrenica was. It was towards the latter part of my

11 journey, as I was heading towards Srebrenica, that I was told that the

12 commander in Srebrenica was Naser Oric. The rest I got to know when I met

13 him, whereas I had heard previously from people who were around me that

14 Naser Oric had been commander of the defence in Srebrenica.


16 Q. Did you also find out, Dr. Mujkanovic, what function Zulfo

17 Tursunovic had, if so?

18 A. At that point I didn't know who Zulfo Tursunovic was or what his

19 role was, or of any of the men who met me there, for that matter.

20 Q. I will get back to that later on. I have the following question:

21 What happened after that first, initial, meeting with Naser Oric and Zulfo

22 Tursunovic? Where did you go to?

23 A. We were trucked from the village of Susnjari to the town of

24 Srebrenica itself. We stopped outside the post office building in

25 Srebrenica. The hospital was across from the post office building. And

Page 4995

1 it was in the post office building that I had a meeting, or rather, that I

2 had opportunity to get to know some other people who were there, including

3 two medical doctors, two colleagues of mine who had been working in the

4 Srebrenica hospital already. This took maybe half an hour at most, and

5 then I went to the Srebrenica Hospital, together with two doctors,

6 colleagues of mine.

7 We started unpacking the large sacks containing surgical

8 instruments for the purposes of the hospital, and we practically started

9 setting up the surgical theatre.

10 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, what was the function of your colleagues that you

11 met?

12 A. At that point nobody held any functions. They were simply doctors

13 working there.

14 Q. Can you mention the two most important colleagues that were

15 cooperating together with you?

16 A. They weren't the two most important ones working with me. There

17 was a total of seven doctors working in Srebrenica. One of them was

18 Dr. Avdo Hasanovic, who held the function of the general manager of the

19 hospital in Srebrenica.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, permission to lead on the name of

21 another colleague.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear the question, and if it's the case of

23 stopping you, I don't know what question you're going to ask.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. Let's hear the question first, and then

Page 4996

1 we'll be in a position to tell you whether it's acceptable to go ahead

2 with it or not.

3 MR. WUBBEN: It's the question of the function of Dr. Ilijan

4 Pilav.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, are you in a position to enlighten us

6 on what role Dr. Ilijan Pilav filled at the time? What was his function?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The doctor's name is Ilijas Pilav.


9 Q. Yes. And what was his function?

10 A. He had no function at the time or later on. He was one of the

11 doctors working in the hospital. I don't know of any function that he

12 discharged.

13 Q. Dr. Avdo Hasanovic, apart from being a general manager of the

14 hospital, did he also have other tasking?

15 A. He was the general manager of the hospital, and I believe he was a

16 member of the War Presidency, though I'm not sure. I do know that he had

17 the task of acting as a liaison between the hospital and the War

18 Presidency in logistical matters. For the purposes of the hospital, in

19 other words, food, firewood or fuel, and medicines.

20 Q. And who did the autopsies in the hospital, if so?

21 A. No autopsies were performed in the hospital. There was just one

22 autopsy performed in the hospital by myself, because the actual cause of a

23 violent death had to be established, and this was the case with one member

24 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who had been killed.

25 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, I might come back to that issue later on. From

Page 4997

1 the start of your job at the hospital, what was your official function?

2 And if you have any title, please inform the Judges.

3 A. I don't understand the question in terms of the title.

4 Q. As Dr. Avdo Hasanovic was the general manager, what was your

5 function at the hospital?

6 A. At this point in time, my role was that of a war surgeon who was

7 supposed to operate on those wounded and injured, to organise the work of

8 the entire surgical ward, of the surgical theatre, of the reception ward,

9 triage ward. And in actual fact, the entire time I spent in Srebrenica,

10 and especially the first two months, was spent actually in the surgical

11 theatre and in linking up with those surgical points that were out in the

12 field from where those injured and wounded would then be transported to

13 the hospital.

14 Q. Now, you confirmed to the Judges that, at that point in time,

15 meaning August or September 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And after those months, was there any change, any change in the

18 label of your position or your function?

19 A. Yes. Sometime in the second half of September, the operational

20 staff of the armed forces of Srebrenica was established, and my role

21 within the staff was that of a chief of the medical corps of the armed

22 forces of Srebrenica.

23 Q. And did -- can you tell the Court whether or not your function as

24 a war surgeon or as a chief of the -- chief medical commander of the armed

25 forces in Srebrenica fell within the military organisation of those armed

Page 4998

1 forces?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall the number of treatments of Bosnian soldiers during

4 a year's time at that hospital?

5 A. The war hospital in Srebrenica had, in one year, from 17 April

6 1992 to the 17th April 1993, provided for over 3.600 wounded and injured

7 persons, out of which 1.600 were members of the army who were wounded and

8 over 1.000 wounded civilians, women and children.

9 Q. Were there any statistics available of how many soldiers in the

10 Srebrenica armed forces had been killed in that period of time?

11 A. We had approximate data in the hospital pointing to some 840 to

12 850 members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who had been killed. Now,

13 I'm only mentioning members of the army here, but there were over 2.000

14 civilians who were killed at the time as a result of shelling or air raids

15 directed against the town, or as a result of suffering injuries from

16 activating land-mines and so on.

17 Q. And again, Dr. Mujkanovic, the same period of time, 17th of April,

18 1992 until 17th of April, 1993; is that correct?

19 A. From the 17th of April, 1992 until the 17th of April, 1993, so I'm

20 talking about this one year of the official war in Srebrenica.

21 Q. And --

22 A. Actually, until the 18th of April, because it was after the 18th

23 of April that demilitarisation took place, so that's the one year that I

24 spent there.

25 Q. Did you treat yourself, in the war hospital, patients who were

Page 4999












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5000

1 Serb prisoners, if so?

2 A. All those who were wounded or injured and were taken to the

3 hospital in Srebrenica were treated according to ethical principles and

4 principles of medical deontology, regardless of their religious, racial --

5 their religion, race, or gender, so that even those who were Serbs and

6 were wounded were treated according to the same rules of medical practice,

7 as had been applied to members of Bosniak or other ethnicities.

8 Q. And did that include Serb detainees?

9 A. I don't know anything about detainees. I'm talking about the

10 wounded.

11 Q. What I mean, Dr. Mujkanovic, a wounded Serb patient who is as well

12 detained in your hospital? Can you confirm that sometimes some of your

13 patients were, as well, detainees?

14 A. I can confirm that my patients were persons who were wounded, and

15 as such were brought into the hospital and treated there. Following

16 treatment, they were handed back to the military police. But neither I,

17 nor any of my colleagues at the hospital, treated anyone in the status of

18 detainees. I am not sure about the definition of detainee, I'm not sure

19 what you mean exactly when you say that.

20 Q. Did it happen some time that there were guards before the doors of

21 a room where a patient was curing?

22 A. If I may be allowed to clarify. All the wounded would be brought

23 in in shifts. They were brought in in lorries. We did not have

24 ambulances, we used lorries to bring the patients in. We would then

25 conduct triage. Depending on the sort of wounds that they had suffered,

Page 5001

1 we would conduct surgery and treat these patients. We paid no heed as to

2 whether these people were Bosniaks or Serbs. It would sometimes happen

3 that, as a result of the limited space that we had at our disposal, all

4 these people were wounded so they had to lie in the same room, altogether.

5 Two or three days later, we would separate the Serbs, or rather, members

6 of the Serbian army, and take them to special rooms at the hospital with

7 special security. Guards were placed in front of these rooms, and they

8 were in charge of the security of these Serb patients.

9 I can say that no attack or incident ever took place at the

10 hospital. No one ever tried to hurt those people in any way. They shared

11 the fate of all of us who were in Srebrenica at the time, patients and

12 civilians alike.

13 Q. Those guards who stood guard for the doors -- in front of the

14 doors, were they in uniform?

15 A. To speak about uniforms in Srebrenica is a futile exercise. Those

16 people were soldiers carrying weapons in order to be able to provide good

17 security for the patients. As for uniforms, no one in Srebrenica really

18 wore a uniform at the time. They were all wearing civilian clothes, but

19 they were soldiers all the same.

20 Q. And they were armed?

21 A. Of course they were. The hospital --

22 Q. And was that, in your opinion, the military police?

23 MR. JONES: Sorry, the witness was providing an answer about the

24 hospital. I think he should be allowed to finish that answer, because

25 it --

Page 5002

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you're correct, Mr. Jones. Let's go back to

2 line 12. The question, witness, was: "Those guards who stood guard for

3 the doors -- in front of the doors, were they in uniform?" And you were

4 saying: "To speak about uniforms in Srebrenica is a futile exercise

5 Those people were soldiers carrying weapons in order to be able to provide

6 good security for the patients. As for uniforms, no one in Srebrenica

7 really wore a uniform at the time. They were all wearing civilian

8 clothes, but they were soldiers all the same." And then you were

9 asked: "And they were armed?" "Of course they were. The hospital --"

10 and you were going to explain something when you were interrupted by

11 Mr. Wubben who asked you: "And was that, in your opinion, the military

12 police?"

13 So before you tell us whether it was the military police or not,

14 could you please give us a full answer to the question, whether those

15 people in Srebrenica were armed or not. You have already said, of course,

16 they were, and then you said: "The hospital ..." And you were going to

17 tell us something about the hospital.

18 Thank you, Mr. Jones, for pointing that out.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a guard standing outside

20 the hospital providing security. There was always a guard, and they took

21 shifts. Their task was to protect the hospital from unwanted arrivals,

22 and thus to protect the lives of nurses, doctors, and patients, as well as

23 to foil any acts of sabotage by Serbs. Acts of sabotage often occurred in

24 the free territory of Srebrenica, incursions by Serb sabotage units,

25 killing people and destroying property in the Srebrenica area. This was

Page 5003

1 one of their tasks, namely, to make the hospital a safe place for patients

2 to recover and to make sure that doctors and nurses had good conditions

3 for their work.

4 When I spoke about Srebrenica, those people were the Territorial

5 Defence, and no one had any uniforms. Maybe at a later stage, some people

6 were given camouflage uniforms that were obtained in whatever way and

7 supplied to the people in Srebrenica. Most of the soldiers, however, had

8 no uniform or weapons. Sometimes two or three persons had to share a

9 single rifle. Nevertheless, there had to be security for the hospital,

10 and whoever was providing security at any given point in time had to carry

11 a weapon.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, these guards --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.


15 Q. These guards, these armed guards, did they form part of the armed

16 forces as being the military police, if so, or do you -- don't you know?

17 A. I don't know. I've never really wanted to know if those people

18 were military police or not. They were guards; that's all I needed to

19 know.

20 Q. I come now to another issue, the issue of the situation in

21 Srebrenica in that period of time, August 1992, and later on. What

22 observations can you give to the Court of the situation in Srebrenica when

23 it comes to the local population and any refugees?

24 A. In that period of time, the conditions in that area were horrific.

25 If there ever was hell on earth, it must have been Srebrenica in 1992 and

Page 5004

1 1993. And as you know, 1993, 1994, and 1995 were, in actual fact,

2 something that brings shame to our civilisation. It was a time of famine,

3 1992 and 1993, a time of daily attacks against Srebrenica, a time of daily

4 shellings, a time of daily air attacks, a time of poverty, a time when

5 refugees were flooding in from the general Podrinje area; Han Pijesak,

6 Vlasenica, Zvornik, Bratunac. Some of the areas around Srebrenica were

7 occupied. It was a time that brings shame to late 20th century

8 civilisation. There was no medicine to treat people with, no anaesthetics

9 to be administered prior to surgery. It was a time when people with no

10 weapons were faced with a situation where they had to defend themselves.

11 They had no support and no supplies and nothing to give them a decent

12 chance of surviving in the area. Time seemed very long. A single day in

13 Srebrenica in that period seemed like an eternity. And some people spent

14 as long as three years, stayed throughout from 1992 to 1995, which was

15 when Srebrenica eventually fell.

16 This is a time that I do not wish to revisit, as a human being or

17 as someone who was personally involved --

18 Q. May I --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, I do understand, of course, sometimes

20 when witnesses choose to give a more extensive answer than what they are

21 being asked. On the other hand, I must make it clear that if we continue

22 like this, this witness is going to be here for two weeks, easily. We

23 have barely started the part of his evidence which is really relevant for

24 the case that we have before us, I mean, and I invite you to go to the

25 head, straight away, as soon as you can, and the witness to please

Page 5005

1 restrict your answers. I mean, I usually give the following advice to

2 witnesses, Mr. Mujkanovic: Namely, that the secret of giving testimony is

3 to answer the whole question -- answer the question, the whole question,

4 and nothing but the question. Otherwise, I'm afraid you're going to be

5 here for a long time.

6 Yes.

7 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may be so bold, the witness was

8 asked a very general question about his observations about the conditions

9 of life in Srebrenica. I think he gave a very full, poignant and

10 important answer, and we would certainly submit that the conditions,

11 appalling conditions in Srebrenica is highly relevant to this case, and so

12 I would beg to differ that the answer was in any way irrelevant. I would

13 submit that it is highly irrelevant.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not referring to this answer, in particular, I'm

15 referring to all the answers that he has been giving. They are lengthy

16 and sometimes they give more information than what is being sought, and we

17 can't go on like this.

18 MR. JONES: The question was very general, was very open.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, the question was not general and very

21 open. The question was focused on August, and to clarify my own position

22 in this respect, I'm very respectful towards an opinion when it comes to a

23 tragedy as responded by the witness, and that's why I didn't interrupt. I

24 interrupted him -- I waited for an interruption at that specific part that

25 I thought it might be ended. My question was very specific. The question

Page 5006

1 was: What was your observation upon your arrival in August 1992 regarding

2 the refugees? Earlier I tried to interrupt the witness and I was

3 prevented from it. That also took us a lot of time. For this particular

4 delicate, may I say, opinion-sharing by the witness, I had to respect --

5 to give him enough to express his feelings.

6 Q. My question, again, if you allow me, Your Honour, my question

7 again, Dr. Mujkanovic, and please keep it brief, what was your observation

8 of the situation in Srebrenica regarding the refugees? What could you see

9 in the streets of Srebrenica in August 1992?

10 A. I can see many people in the streets, many refugees. But you must

11 know that my job was not to watch refugees. Sometimes I would spend as

12 many as 36 or 40 hours on end in the surgical theatre, without ever

13 leaving.

14 Q. Did that also, that situation, affect everyday lives in the

15 street, people being distributed with food, already in August 1992?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I see that there may be a problem with

17 interpretation.

18 Dr. Mujkanovic, are you receiving interpretation or not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, but there was a very

20 brief interruption towards the end.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's a good thing that I keep my eyes open and

22 travelling from east to west, or from left to right. The question was the

23 following, by Mr. Wubben: "Did that also, that situation, affect everyday

24 lives in the street, people being distributed with food, already in August

25 1992?" This was the question.

Page 5007

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

2 Are you expecting me to provide a brief answer to a question I don't

3 understand? That's impossible. What do people out in the street have to

4 do with food distribution? And I'm not sure what the link is imagined to

5 be.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I will not try to do that for Mr. Wubben.

7 Mr. Wubben, it's your question. Could you rephrase it in a way

8 that is more understandable for the witness.


10 Q. Did the refugees referred to at that time, in August 1992, live in

11 the streets, or did they live somewhere else?

12 A. That's a different question, isn't it? At that time everyone had

13 a roof over their heads. Now, whether there were perhaps 15 or 20 people

14 living packed in a single house, that's another matter. But everyone had

15 some sort of accommodation, and there was no difference between the local

16 population and people who had come in from outside. They all had the same

17 treatment and enjoyed the same conditions.

18 Q. Did there come a time that that situation changed? I mean that

19 refugees started to live on the streets, or at least outside houses?

20 A. That's true. That was after Konjevic Polje and Cerska had fallen.

21 I'm talking about early March 1993. So from that time on until the

22 demilitarisation, tens of thousands of refugees from Konjevic Polje were

23 on their way to Srebrenica. Srebrenica could not put everyone up, so

24 people lived outside in the streets and in public buildings, wherever they

25 could.

Page 5008

1 MR. WUBBEN: Please bear me a moment, Your Honour.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]


4 Q. When it comes to the hospital, you confirmed to the Judges,

5 Dr. Mujkanovic, that this was a war hospital, and my next question is:

6 Did Naser Oric ever visit the hospital to see the patients, if so?

7 A. Yes, very often, he used to come very often, and he would see the

8 patients. Whenever he came, he would first come to see me or the other

9 doctors, and then he would be accompanied during his tour of the hospital.

10 He would see patients and inquire about their help.

11 Q. What do you mean by "very often"? Every now and then, on a

12 regular basis, or every day?

13 A. Not every day, but not a week went by without him coming to visit

14 the patients.

15 Q. And why did he visit the patients?

16 A. He wanted to know about their health. There were many people

17 there who were wounded; most of the people there were, in fact. He wanted

18 to see what would happen to those people. Lots of limbs were being

19 amputated at the time. He wanted to know about those people, whether

20 their lives were in danger, whether they would make it. I think it was a

21 humane instinct that drove him to come and ask questions about the fate of

22 those people.

23 Q. Did he also have to visit -- no, sorry, I will rephrase my

24 question. Did he also visit the Serb detainees who were patients in your

25 hospital?

Page 5009

1 MR. JONES: The witness said clearly that he didn't know what

2 detainees meant. There were Serbs, some of whom who might have been in a

3 private ward. There's another way of approaching the question without

4 putting "detainee" --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you have to go back a few questions

6 before you can actually put this question, Mr. Wubben.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Okay. I will rephrase, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the objection can only be sustained.

9 Yes, Judge Eser.

10 JUDGE ESER: Just for a matter of clarification of the language, I

11 remember that in earlier trials, the question has been phrased in terms of

12 prisoners. Now you speak of detainees. I don't know whether that is a

13 distinction in the Bosnian-Serbian language, so perhaps you could clarify

14 whether you mean the same with detainees and prisoners.

15 MR. WUBBEN: In my opinion, "detainee" is, in general, a person

16 who is under a form of secured guard, and a prisoner is a detainee who is

17 imprisoned and, as such, a special function of a building, is spending his

18 time in that building. That's the difference.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: This even makes it more clear that you have to go a

20 few questions back before you can put the -- just ask the witness --

21 you've got four more minutes to go before we break.

22 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

23 Q. Did Naser Oric also pay special attention to Serb patients?

24 A. He paid the same sort of attention to everyone, Bosniaks and Serbs

25 alike. He wanted to know about everyone's health.

Page 5010

1 Q. Including Serb patients who were guarded?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. And was there any information exchanged between the hospital and

4 the armed forces in Srebrenica at that time regarding those Serb patients?

5 A. There was no official exchange of information. There were some

6 conversations, though.

7 Q. And who did communicate that with the armed forces?

8 A. Each of us. I may have, Dr. Avdo, Dr. Ilijas, Dr. Avdic. Each

9 and any of the doctors could have been in a situation to orally report on

10 the health of a given patient. We did not write any official reports. We

11 would transmit information orally. Someone, for example, may have been

12 asking about a certain patient and then we would tell them, we would tell

13 them about the patient's health and our assessment.

14 Q. And had there also been medical reports drafted on behalf of such

15 patients?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I am now up to a new issue, and I would

19 prefer to request for a break.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fine, Mr. Wubben.

21 We will have a short break of 25 minutes, starting from now.

22 Thank you.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

Page 5011

1 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, I will ask you some questions about this time, the

3 first months of your arrival, August 1992, beginning September, and my

4 question relates to the armed forces, the TO, in Srebrenica. Can you

5 describe for the Judges the chain of command of the Territorial Defence in

6 Srebrenica at the times -- at the months of your arrival, August 1992?

7 MR. JONES: Sorry, Your Honour, I would prefer it if my learned

8 friend would just ask the witness to describe how it functioned or

9 something of that nature, because it does imply a chain of command which

10 didn't exist.

11 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour, the functioning of the armed forces

12 is a total different question as a chain of command, as such. A chain of

13 command is another observation than how it functioned because that gave

14 way to a certain opinion.

15 MR. JONES: That's what appeared in the question, chain of

16 command. That's what I was objecting to.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Appearing in the question doesn't mean it was how it

18 functioned.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: The first question ought to have been whether there

20 was a chain of command that he is aware of as far as the Territorial

21 Defence in Srebrenica is concerned. So answer that question first.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware of the chain of

23 command.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. Yes, Mr. Wubben, I don't think we need

25 to proceed any further.

Page 5012


2 Q. Was there any command within the Territorial Defence in Srebrenica

3 at that time?

4 A. There was an organ, I'd rather say, called the staff of

5 Territorial Defence, made up by the commanders of the units that were

6 present in the area of Srebrenica.

7 Q. And my next question is: This staff of the TO, was that staff

8 also headed by a supreme commander, if so?

9 A. The supreme commander of the armed forces is the War Presidency,

10 and Naser Oric was commander of the defence of Srebrenica, as it was

11 called.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we are entering into a confusion

13 zone, as I see it.

14 You, in answering a question that was put to you earlier on, you

15 said that when you transferred to the Srebrenica hospital there, you

16 essentially became part of the armed forces of Srebrenica. Do you

17 remember saying that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, not only upon my arrival in

19 Srebrenica. I became a member of the Territorial Defence in May 1992, a

20 Territorial Defence which was later to become the army of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, when I arrived to the war hospital in Kalesija. Since

22 then, and until I was demobilised, I was a member of the army of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was, therefore, in this capacity that I spent my

24 time in Srebrenica as well.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But you said that you had also been appointed as

Page 5013

1 chief medical officer of the Srebrenica, et cetera, in September,

2 August -- August or September of 1992; do you remember that? And that as

3 such, you formed part of the military set-up there. Yes. Who were -- who

4 was your immediate superior?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the operations

6 staff since the second half of September 1992, that is, of the operations

7 staff of the Territorial Defence of Srebrenica. And at the time it was

8 already called the armed forces of Srebrenica. According to this

9 structure, Osman Osmanovic, chief of staff, was my superior.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And who was Osman Osmanovic's superior?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Osman Osmanovic was chief of staff,

12 and his superior at the time was Commander Naser Oric.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, may I please clarify also with respect

16 to my questions were focusing, indeed, on August and perhaps beginning of

17 September, because then there is this change in staff. And I will refer

18 to that also with a few --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead for the time. I apologise to you for

20 having interrupted you, but we need to move.

21 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

22 Q. Now, with respect to the Territorial Defence, was there at the

23 time in August already a staff functioning?

24 A. There was a Territorial Defence staff, and I've already stayed

25 that it was made up mostly of the commanders of the local units present in

Page 5014

1 the area of Srebrenica.

2 Q. And who headed that staff of local commanders? Who was chairing

3 that?

4 MR. JONES: Again, if anyone. It may be that it's completely

5 disorganised and that needs to be left open rather than it being suggested

6 to the witness that there was necessarily a commander, which there might

7 not have been.


9 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I think that's a perfectly legitimate objection.

11 It's a question of how you phrase your questions, that's all, Mr. Wubben,

12 because ultimately we will get there just the same, I mean we will get to

13 that question.

14 When you refer -- no, I will not phrase the question for you.

15 It's your problem.

16 MR. WUBBEN: I will proceed.

17 Q. Did you took part of such a staff or a staff meeting?

18 A. I did not take any part in the work of the Territorial Defence

19 staff.

20 Q. Was Naser Oric, to your knowledge, part of that staff?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Can you give me the names of local commanders and their units who

23 formed part of that staff?

24 A. I will try to remember them. The units were established on the

25 territorial principle, according to the area they were established in, so

Page 5015

1 that the Territorial Defence unit in Suceska was commanded by Zulfo

2 Tursunovic. The units active in the south-east of the Srebrenica

3 municipality, namely Kragljevode, Osmace, Skenderovici, were, I believe,

4 commanded by Nedzad Bektic, Senaid Tabakovic, and I don't recall who else

5 there was. And the unit of the Territorial Defence in Biljega was

6 commanded by Ahmo Tihic. As for the town proper of Srebrenica, there were

7 two units, one commanded by Atif Ustic and the other by Hakija Meholjic.

8 There were also units in the south-east of the Srebrenica enclave, namely,

9 the areas of Potocari, Pale, Likari, but I don't recall who the commanders

10 of these units were.

11 So when I said that the staff comprised commanders of these units,

12 I meant to say that it was a rather informal group of people who simply

13 conferred to see how they could effectively stand ground and put up

14 resistance and defend Srebrenica.

15 Q. I have a question with regard to a staff meeting. You referred to

16 this staff meeting as a couple of local commanders, but is it correct that

17 you, for yourself, met with Naser Oric and some of his men at the PTT

18 building for a staff meeting, in August?

19 A. The PTT building was opposite the hospital, some 30 metres from --

20 across the hospital. Oftentimes, time and work permitting, I would cross

21 the street and meet different people there, talking to them informally.

22 So I never took part in any formal meeting of a staff or any other

23 military institution.

24 Q. And what about an informal meeting, a discussion together with

25 staff? Were you ever present at such a meeting?

Page 5016

1 A. I can't recall taking part in any meetings in this particular

2 period, in this one month. It was rather that I was getting to know these

3 people, because you have to know that it was my first time in Srebrenica

4 at the time. I knew no one. I didn't even know where Srebrenica was

5 located earlier on. And this is why I used my spare time to get to know

6 the people there, and we talked about different matters, among other

7 things, how to defend ourselves from the attack and the aggression best.

8 Q. Now, Dr. Mujkanovic, I will proceed to show you a number of

9 documents, and as much as possible - original documents - ask you for --

10 most of them, for your comments. In relation to that, I have a prior

11 question. Will you please clarify or confirm whether or not you are

12 familiar with the signature of Naser Oric at the times in Srebrenica?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have to start with that question first

14 and foremost, Mr. Wubben, and ask the witness to explain to us how come,

15 if he is familiar with Naser Oric's signature, how come he is familiar

16 with it.

17 MR. WUBBEN: I thought, Your Honour, with all respect, that that

18 was my question.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't understand it to be that.


21 Q. Are you familiar with the signature of Naser Oric at the time

22 in -- at your time in Srebrenica?

23 A. Later on, I had occasion to -- when I would receive a slip of

24 paper from Naser Oric at times when he was unable to reach the hospital

25 but was interested in knowing what the condition of certain patients was,

Page 5017

1 or when he had some private matter he would inquire me about, to see his

2 signature on such slips of paper and to become familiarised with it.

3 Q. Did that happen often, throughout the period of time during the

4 hospital?

5 A. Not that often.

6 Q. What was the meaning of those papers signed by him? Was there a

7 special function?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't understand the question, Mr. Wubben.


10 Q. Why --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you need to rephrase it.


13 Q. Were -- these papers signed by Naser Oric, were these special

14 documents or other kinds of documents, papers?

15 A. These were no documents. These were simply messages on slips of

16 paper. And it was in March or April 1993 that this practice intensified,

17 when refugees were already fleeing from Srebrenica to Tuzla, that he would

18 want to get in touch with me personally and could not otherwise because he

19 was occupied, because this was at the time of the most intensive attacks

20 on Srebrenica. It was from early April until the 17th of April, 1993,

21 when he would send messages to me to the effect that certain wounded

22 people had to be evacuated before some others, and matters to that effect.

23 So these were no documents, really.

24 MR. WUBBEN: I need now the assistance of the usher. Please, will

25 you put on the ELMO Exhibit number 73.

Page 5018

1 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I just say that we -- based on what

2 this witness has said, we would object to this witness being asked to

3 authenticate the signature of Naser Oric. In our submission, there hasn't

4 isn't a sufficient foundation. In most legal systems, I imagine around

5 the world, there are two or three ways of proofing -- of proving

6 signature, either by the person who wrote it or the person who saw the

7 person actual sign the document, or by someone who has corresponded

8 regularly with the person. I have extracts from the relevant law in the

9 United Kingdom. I gather it's the same in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it's

10 not a question of weight, it's a question of admissibility. If a person

11 is just going to, in our submission, guess that something is a signature

12 from 12 years ago, we would submit that that's unsafe, that's a very

13 unsafe procedure to be permitted. In our submission, that there is

14 insufficient foundation for this witness to purport to authenticate the

15 signatures of Naser Oric. And if it's a matter we need to go into, I have

16 extracts from Archibald just to show what the procedure is in the United

17 Kingdom. I imagine it's the same in Your Honours' jurisdictions.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I don't think you're exempted from

20 answering that. Certainly guessing is one thing. But looking at a

21 signature and telling us if, according to him, that signature resembles

22 the one he knows to be of Naser Oric, that's definitely admissible, and

23 that's how we will proceed.

24 MR. JONES: My objection --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already told us that -- of course we are not

Page 5019

1 proving that that is, indeed, the signature of Naser Oric because the

2 witness is telling us so. But the witness, of course, has every right to

3 be asked a question by the Prosecution whether, to him, that is the

4 signature of Naser Oric. Then we decide whether it's the signature of

5 Naser Oric or not later on.

6 MR. JONES: Yes, I understand that point, Your Honour. My

7 objection is to say is there's insufficient foundation because he neither

8 saw the document signed by Oric and he hasn't corresponded regularly with

9 him. And so our submission is --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's exactly that. He told us that he used

11 to receive regularly these notes from -- according to him, from Naser

12 Oric.

13 MR. JONES: My objection is on the record.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What I wanted to know is whether these notes

15 were signed by -- were signed in any way.

16 Were they signed? And how were they signed? These notes that

17 Mr. Wubben asked you about, that you told us that used to receive

18 inquiring about patients in the hospital, you said they would be from

19 Naser Oric. How would you know that they would be from Naser Oric?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would be brought over by a

21 courier who told me, "These were sent to you by Naser Oric." These would

22 even by incomplete slips of paper containing a message, saying Please do

23 this or that, or Could you please help with this or that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Were they usually signed, or not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were always signed.

Page 5020

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And how were they signed?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were signed in hand, at the end

3 of the text.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but what would the signature say? Would it say

5 "Naser Oric"? Would it say "Oric"? Would it say "Naser"? What would it

6 say, or what would it show?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a signature. Not a name

8 and a surname but a signature.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, let's proceed.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Just very, in brief, my

11 response to Defence counsel would be: That criterion is not as stated by

12 him but a ruling by your own Chamber in October, that when it comes to

13 authentication everything is admitted unless your Chamber finds out it is

14 manifestly inappropriate. And that is a wider range --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste time, Mr. Wubben. Let's proceed,

16 please.

17 MR. WUBBEN: On Sanction there is, Your Honour, the English

18 translation --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I want to see the signature.

20 MR. WUBBEN: -- on the ELMO is the document. Can the usher please

21 show the document on the ELMO, if so.

22 MR. JONES: Can we be told which document it is?


24 MR. WUBBEN: Document 73.


Page 5021












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5022

1 MR. WUBBEN: P73, yes. And P73 is -- has the ERN number 02075808.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Your question.


4 Q. My question is: Do you recognise this signature?

5 A. This signature does look like Naser Oric's signature.

6 Q. I refer now to the text, Dr. Mujkanovic. The text is headed, and

7 I'll read out: "Srebrenica TO," and the date with the place, Bajramovici,

8 20th of May, 1992, a decision. And the wording goes: "The Srebrenica

9 municipal TO staff is hereby informed ..."

10 Now, the list goes on "as the following shall be appointed to the

11 Srebrenica TO staff." And I quote:

12 "Naser Oric, as commander of the Srebrenica TO staff ..."

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness can read.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.

15 Q. Please read the names, Dr. Mujkanovic, as suggested by the Judge,

16 from 1 up to 7.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Give him a chance to read it, and then put your

18 question.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.


22 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, these names and the positions mentioned, are these

23 names and positions consistent with your experience from August 1992 in

24 Srebrenica?

25 A. I know some of the people named here; others I don't.

Page 5023

1 Q. And who do you know of the list? Can you confirm?

2 A. I know Naser Oric, Atif Ustic, Zulfo Tursunovic, Hamdija. I know

3 Bogilovic Becir, but I don't Sevket Djozic and --

4 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't catch the last name.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreters didn't catch the last name. You

6 said you didn't know Sevket Djozic and --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ahmo Tihic. But I didn't know

8 Djozic Sevket.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you know Ahmo Tihic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: There was only one person you didn't know from this

12 list, and that was Sevket Djozic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.


16 Q. My next question is: Now, those names you know, at the time in

17 Srebrenica, from August, were the positions linked to those names

18 consistent with your experience in Srebrenica?

19 A. I knew some of them, and some I didn't. I knew about Atif Ustic,

20 that he was commander of Suceska, or rather, commander of the unit in

21 Srebrenica. I knew about Zulfo Tursunovic, that he was commander of

22 Suceska. Hamdija Fejzic, I didn't know that he was in commander of

23 anything. Sevket, I didn't know. Bogilovic, I didn't know, and I knew

24 that Ahmo Tihic, that he was in the area of Biljega, that he was commander

25 there. But I learned about this later on, not the moment I arrived in

Page 5024

1 Srebrenica.

2 Q. But did you experience that these persons are functioning in that

3 position, as mentioned?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you know of their position, as such, as you confirm it now,

6 today, for the Judges?

7 MR. JONES: I don't understand that. He just said that he didn't

8 have experience of it. If he's then being asked, Well, do you know if

9 they occupied those positions, then fine. But what's he supposed to have

10 confirmed today before the Judges? I don't know.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you, Mr. Jones. Would you rephrase the

12 question if you, indeed, want to put that question.

13 Q. Was it known to you, at the time you were in Srebrenica, that --

14 and I'll start with the names you're familiar with, that Naser Oric was

15 commander of the TO staff?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, I hate to interrupt you, but he's

17 already told us each, one by one. I think barely a minute ago he went

18 through the whole list and said what he knew as far as the position

19 occupied.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. WUBBEN: So far, Your Honour, he has not confirmed that with

22 respect to Naser Oric, so I will repeat that question.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. All right. Ask him about Naser Oric

24 only, because the rest he has -- although even I think I heard him say so,

25 but ...

Page 5025

1 MR. WUBBEN: I might be mistaken, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. Go ahead, but ask that question only,

3 please, and let's proceed.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes.

5 Q. Can you confirm that it was known to your experience that Naser

6 Oric was, indeed, commander of the Srebrenica TO staff at the days of your

7 stay in Srebrenica?

8 A. I stayed in Srebrenica from the 5th of August to the 22nd of

9 April. You must specify the period of time you have in mind. During the

10 nine months I stayed there, I knew that he was commander, and I knew who

11 was which commander. But are we talking about early September 1992?

12 Because that's how you read you. If we're talking about that period in

13 time, I knew nothing about how the Territorial Defence was structured, nor

14 did I want to know. Occasionally, I met some of the local commanders, but

15 I was not aware of a formal body named "Staff," nor did I know that the

16 staff was led by Naser Oric. I knew that Naser Oric was commander of the

17 Srebrenica defence, but I was unaware of how this functioned in terms of

18 structure and organisation, or any possible links. I didn't want to know.

19 I can talk about the second half of September, when I formally

20 became a member of the operations staff. Now, this is something that

21 perhaps I could tell you about, but I'm afraid I can't tell you anything

22 prior to my arrival, or about the first month following my arrival. I had

23 no real desire to know more about the structure or organisation of the

24 military bodies. I knew nothing about how these were structured. I must

25 say that, even if a specific structure was in place, it certainly didn't

Page 5026

1 work in the way that some of these documents seemed to suggest. The only

2 thing that happened was people were trying to get themselves organised to

3 fend off the attacks of the army of Republika Srpska and the army of

4 Yugoslavia.

5 Most of the villages had their own units. They had guards.

6 People were holding the line to keep the enemy from breaking through,

7 storming the villages and massacring the local population. Now, whether

8 two or three or four months after the aggression broke out someone

9 actually --

10 Q. I apologise, Dr. Mujkanovic, you answered my question. Thank you

11 for that, and let's limit the answering of my questions towards the

12 issues, and I apologise for interrupting you. Let's go to the following

13 document, P74.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Usher, please, will you assist me. P74, ERN

15 02075809.

16 Q. Witness, will you please take a look at this document and the

17 signature. Do you recognise the signature?

18 A. It is quite illegible. Half of the signature is covered by a

19 stamp. Based on what I see here, I'm unable to confirm whether this looks

20 anything like Mr. Oric's signature. The other half of the signature may,

21 perhaps, be a little like it, but I can't be certain.

22 Q. My question relates -- my following question relates to the

23 content of this document. It is a decision dated -- Bajramovici, 20 May

24 1992 and I quote: "Becir Bogilovic" - further on - "appointed the

25 temporary police commander in the town of Srebrenica." Within the

Page 5027

1 statement of reasons, and I quote: "Becir Bogilovic is hereby tasked with

2 gathering policemen and reviving of the service for protecting law and

3 order."

4 Did you read that, Dr. Mujkanovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is, according to your experience, this decision being implemented

7 in practice in your time at Srebrenica?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Which time? You need to be precise.

9 MR. WUBBEN: August.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: August.


12 Q. August and later on.

13 A. I met Becir Bogilovic perhaps a month after I arrived in

14 Srebrenica. The position he held then was chief of the public security

15 station. I have no idea about the date of his appointment, or pursuant to

16 which specific decision he was appointed.

17 Q. But was he acting as being in charge of the temporary police or

18 the police in the town of Srebrenica?

19 A. I don't know about temporary. There was civilian police. Whether

20 it was of a permanent or temporary nature is not something that I can say.

21 But there was a civilian police presence in the town of Srebrenica. And

22 as I said, when I met Becir Bogilovic, he was chief of the public security

23 station in Srebrenica.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Next document, usher, please, P75, ERN number

25 02075808 -- again, please, 020705810.

Page 5028

1 Q. Please take a look at the document, Dr. Mujkanovic. My question

2 is: Do you recognise the signature?

3 A. It looks like Naser Oric's signature.

4 Q. In this document -- in this document, persons are mentioned. Will

5 you please read the redaction under "Decision." That's the persons at 1,

6 2, 3.

7 A. I've read this.

8 Q. Now, this is a decision of the 26th of May, 1992, of the

9 Territorial Defence staff, a decision to expand the Srebrenica TO staff

10 with new members. Those names, is it, to your -- is it -- is that

11 consistent with your experience that those people named in that decision

12 did take part of the Srebrenica TO staff?

13 MR. JONES: Your Honour, if I may, a couple of points, really.

14 First is we've objected to the authenticity of all these documents, but if

15 it's anything it's a purported decision, we're not accepting, and it

16 shouldn't be suggested that this is a decision that we all know is a

17 decision of the TO Staff that may be a forgery. But secondly, I'm sure

18 we've all noted that the date is May. We're talking about three months

19 before this witness arrived, and he's also said repeatedly that he doesn't

20 know the structure of the TO staff.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, he didn't know the structure in August.

22 MR. JONES: Right. But it's just the -- the inherent

23 suggestiveness of showing him document after document of possibly false or

24 forged documents and saying, Is this -- Is your experience consistent with

25 the facts stated here, is, in my submission, is going to lead to very

Page 5029

1 misleading evidence being given. It would be a lot simpler if Mr. Wubben

2 would just say: Atif Krdzic to say, Do you know him, do you know what his

3 function was in August? In fact, an exercise -- we could even dispense

4 with the documents. He could simply ask -- ask the witness --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down.

6 MR. JONES: I'll slow down. He could simply ask questions about

7 people and their functions, and if later he wants to match that up with

8 the documents, then fine. But to place document after document in front

9 of this witness and try to get him to confirm that somehow these documents

10 have any value is, in my submission, objectionable.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go about it in a different manner.

12 Witness, you have read that this document that you have been

13 handed by our usher, there are three names there, Atif Krdzic, Nedzad

14 Bektic, Senaid Tabakovic. Did you know these persons, or did you come to

15 know these persons?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met Atif Krdzic sometime in

17 September of 1992. I met Nedzad Bektic in late September 1992. I met

18 Senaid Tabakovic sometime in November 1992. I did meet these people. I

19 told you when I met them. But again, I can't confirm the authenticity of

20 this decision simply because it was written, produced, at a time when I

21 was still not in the Srebrenica area. I am not aware of this decision or

22 anything that it seems to indicate, the setting up of a staff. I did know

23 these people personally, however, and I told you specifically when I met

24 each of them.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: This document alleges that Atif Krdzic, apart from

Page 5030

1 being a member of the Srebrenica TO staff, which I don't want you to

2 comment about, he was also organiser of armed resistance against the

3 aggressor in the area of Osmace. Were you aware of that fact? I think

4 you need to say "Da" or not, because the interpreters need to hear your

5 voice.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The same question with regard to Nedzad Bektic. It

8 is alleged that he was organiser of armed resistance in the area of

9 Kragljevode.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And it's also alleged in this document that Senaid

12 Tabakovic was one of the organisers of armed resistance in the area of

13 Skenderovici.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You're aware of these facts.

16 Yes, Mr. Wubben.


18 Q. Last question: Are you aware that one or more of these names, of

19 these persons mentioned here, functioned as a member of the Srebrenica TO

20 staff?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already answered that question. Yes,

22 anyway, if you haven't, please answer it now.

23 A. I said I didn't know, didn't I? It's before I arrived; therefore,

24 there is nothing I can say about that.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Let me try again, Your Honour.

Page 5031

1 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already told us that, for the first period

2 during his stay in Srebrenica, he wasn't even aware of the existence of a

3 so-called Srebrenica TO staff.

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, of course, and what I asked him, Your Honour,

5 is, is it, according to your experience when you were in Srebrenica, that

6 these persons were functioning at that time as members of the TO staff.

7 That's the question. Not in reverse, earlier in time to May, because he

8 can't testify about that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But if he's --

10 Did you ever, at any time, come to know about the existence of the

11 Srebrenica TO staff? Srebrenica Territorial --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never came to know about the

13 Srebrenica TO staff. What I said was that there were a group of people,

14 local commanders, these amongst them, who would meet and discuss the ways

15 in which to resist the aggressor. I was never aware of any decision or a

16 formal document at the time to set up a Srebrenica TO staff.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So the only question that you can put to the

18 witness, Mr. Wubben, is whether, to his knowledge, these three persons

19 ever formed part of the staff that he was aware of? Not of the Srebrenica

20 Territorial staff. The staff that he's been continually referring to,

21 this loosely structured -- according to him, because that's how he

22 described it in the first place.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Point taken, Your Honour. I will continue with --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but you have to ask the question, because it's

25 an important question. You can't ask him whether he -- to his knowledge,

Page 5032

1 they were members of, and participated as members of, the Srebrenica TO

2 staff, because at no time did he come to know of the existence of a

3 so-called Srebrenica TO staff. But he has told us that he is aware that

4 there was a staff at the time.

5 Did these three persons, to your knowledge, form part of that

6 staff, in August, when you arrived? In August of 1992. You told us that

7 there was a staff.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I told you is that there was an

9 informal, I'm saying informal, group. I didn't see it as a staff at the

10 time. It was an informal group with local commanders who would come to

11 Srebrenica from as far as 20 or 30 kilometres away. They would come to

12 attend meetings, to deal with certain problems. I'll say it again: I was

13 not aware of the existence of any TO staff, and I also said I wasn't

14 interested, and I also said that my task and my job at the time was quite

15 different on account of which there's nothing I can tell you about the

16 existence of any TO staff that was organised in such and such a way.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The question, therefore, goes back to what you've

18 just said. This informal gathering, informal group, to your knowledge,

19 did Atif Krdzic belong to that group? Did Nedzad Bektic belong to that

20 group or come for meetings of that group? Did Senaid Tabakovic, I think

21 you told us he already did, belong to that group?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you when I met those people.

23 I can't speak about August. I said that I met Atif Krdzic late in the

24 year. I heard that there was a commander named Atif Krdzic in the

25 south-east of the Srebrenica area. I didn't even know what the man looked

Page 5033

1 like. I had heard of Nedzad Bektic, but I didn't know what he looked

2 like. I had heard of Senaid Tabakovic. I had no idea what he looked

3 like. I knew he was a local commander in the Skenderovici area. But I

4 only met them one at a time. I didn't have time to go around and meet all

5 these people. I met them when they came to see me, when they brought a

6 problem of their own to the hospital. That's when I met them.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Meeting them and coming to know them is one thing.

8 Knowing that they became part of this informal group that you mentioned is

9 another. And My question precisely is whether, to your knowledge, in

10 August of 1992, these three persons, or any one of these three persons,

11 formed part of this informal group? It's not when -- I'm not contesting

12 when you came to know them personally, but it seems that you knew that

13 there was a group, an informal group, in August. I'm asking you whether

14 you knew also that these three persons formed part of that group in

15 August?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes what?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.

20 Judge Eser has a question.

21 JUDGE ESER: Just to clarify this point. Now, was it that you

22 just did not know the term of Territorial Defence, or was it -- you had

23 mentioned that there was some informal gatherings, and that these three

24 people belonged to this gathering, where they would come together. Now,

25 you had said so, testified so, on these terms. Now, can you confirm that

Page 5034

1 there was some sort of a group, whatever you call it, at least that there

2 was a group, and that these people, even if you did not know them

3 personally at that time, had been part or taking -- participating in this

4 group?

5 MR. JONES: Can Your Honour please put the question in an open

6 way, because leading questions from the Bench are even worse. Possibly

7 these people were simply coming and going into Srebrenica without

8 belonging -- I'm not even sure if one can belong to a gathering. But if

9 the witness could simply be asked whether -- were these -- a very open

10 position, like did this people come and go occasionally, meet informally,

11 or was there a slightly more formalised group? I'd hate to have a leading

12 question like that coming from the Bench.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's already -- the question acknowledges that it

14 was an informal group.

15 In the meantime, Registrar, please, because I was just trying to

16 go back a few pages to find something in the transcript, going back to

17 about an hour ago, which I wanted to question the witness about, but it

18 seems that my -- is just blocked. It's not moving. The transcript on the

19 main monitor is scrolling perfectly, but on my laptop, it's blocked. I

20 don't know what's happening. And it seems it's blocked here.

21 All right. It's moving now. All right, okay. One moment,

22 please, because I need to check something.

23 Earlier on, I'm referring to page 30 -- bottom of page 36, the

24 last part of page 36, and the beginning of page 37. You will recall that

25 we were dealing with -- let's start -- page 35, rather, it went to line

Page 5035

1 20 -- 21, Mr. Wubben: [As read] "Now, with respect to the Territorial

2 Defence, was there at that time in August already a staff functioning?"

3 And the witness answered, "there was a Territorial Defence staff, and I've

4 already stated that it was made up of the local commanders present in the

5 area of Srebrenica." Question: "And who headed that staff? Who was

6 chairing that," and then there was an objection from Mr. Jones, saying

7 again it may be not complete -- needs to be left open, et cetera. Mr.

8 Wubben and me, I said that that was a perfectly legitimate objection, and

9 you asked the witness, line 16, on page -- "Did you took part of such a

10 staff or a staff meeting?" I hope whoever is listening to me does not

11 think that my English is that bad. "I did not take part in any of the

12 works of the Territorial Defence staff." And then the question was: "Was

13 Naser Oric part of the staff?" And you answered "I don't know." And then

14 the question was: "Can you give me the names of the local commanders and

15 their units who formed who formed part of that staff." So we're talking

16 of staff all the time. And then your answer was: "I will try to remember

17 them. The units were established on the territorial principle according

18 to the area that they were established in so that the Territorial Defence

19 unit in Suceska was commanded by Zulfo Tursunovic. The units active in

20 the south-east of Srebrenica municipality, namely, Kragljevode,

21 Skenderovici, were, I believe, commanded by Nedzad Bektic, Senaid

22 Tabakovic, and I don't recall who else was there. And the unit of the

23 Territorial Defence in Biljega was commanded by Ahmo teach. As for the

24 town proper of Srebrenica, there were two units, one commanded by Atif

25 Ustic and the other commanded by Hakija Meholjic. There were also units

Page 5036

1 in the south-east of Srebrenica, namely, the areas of Potocari, Pale,

2 Likari, but I don't recall who the commanders of these units were." My

3 question -- seems to me I've been trying --

4 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I --well, I think one has to read on

5 from there, because at the very next line he says: "So when I said that

6 the staff comprise commanders of the units, I meant to say that it was a

7 rather informal group --"

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

9 MR. JONES: He's not talking about staff.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: My question is completely unrelated to whether it's

11 formal or whether it was informal. My question is: It seems to me that,

12 looking at what you said then and what you said now, that you were not

13 aware whether, for example, Nedzad Bektic formed part of this loose,

14 rather informal group of people, whether Senaid Tabakovic formed part of

15 this informal group of people. Already, about an hour ago, you told us

16 that you knew that they formed of that group, so how come that you're now

17 telling us that you don't know or that you didn't know?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there may be a

19 misunderstanding on this point. I'm speaking about a specific document.

20 I'm not aware of any decisions in documents talking about certain people

21 being part of the staff, or becoming members of the staff. I stayed

22 exactly what I said; namely, there was an informal group of people

23 comprising unit commanders who came to attend certain meetings and talked

24 about how the town defence should best be set up. I'm not sure what its

25 name was, whether it was called staff or not. And I know nothing about

Page 5037

1 any decision of this kind in May or after. We're talking about that

2 decision. You asked me, Did I know about that decision, and I said, I had

3 no idea. I knew those people, but I also know that local commanders would

4 occasionally carry, that they would come individually or in a group, all

5 of them, and hold meetings, that sort of thing.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I'm not asking you about the decision, I'm

7 just asking you whether you were aware that these three persons, Atif

8 Krdzic, Nedzad Bektic, and Senaid Tabakovic actually did participate in

9 this informal group you described to us. It's not whether this document

10 is correct or not correct. I mean, we're not dealing with that.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I can tell you is

12 that these people were commanders of the units I mentioned earlier on, and

13 where they were situated territorially, and I can tell you that I met

14 these people. I can't tell you whether they were part of the informal

15 group or not, whether they did go and meet there or not. I know that the

16 people existed and that they were commanders of those units.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben, he is your witness.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Later on, when the staff, the TO staff had been established in the

20 second half of September, were these people functioning in these

21 functions?

22 A. Yes, they were, as commanders of local units.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. WUBBEN: I need the usher to show document P4. P4 has an ERN

25 number 01239504.

Page 5038

1 Q. Please take a look at this document, Dr. Mujkanovic.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

4 A. It does look like Naser Oric's signature.

5 Q. Now, Dr. Mujkanovic, will you please read this document that is --

6 appears to be, from the redaction, an order, Srebrenica, 15 June, 1992.

7 A. Yes, I've read it.

8 Q. And my question relates to this order, a specific part of it under

9 Roman I, second line: "All the local leaders are ordered to immediately

10 commence developing the organisation and establishment of the Srebrenica

11 TO units."

12 After that, the names of places, up to number 9, and linkage with

13 names are mentioned. My question is, Dr. Mujkanovic -- and again to clear

14 to you -- to make it clear to you, it's not about the document as such, an

15 authentication, it's about those namings of the TO and of persons involved

16 from which you already mentioned a couple. My question is: As from your

17 experience in August 1992, were these TOs, these local TOs organised as

18 such?

19 A. Based on my experience from 1992, I didn't know whether they were

20 called Territorial Defence or otherwise. I only knew that they were units

21 organised according to a territorial principle. Now, whether they were

22 Potocari TO or Suceska TO, I couldn't tell. At the time I only knew that

23 units existed in the area of Suceska, Osmace, Biljega, Kragljevode,

24 Skenderovici, and so on. Accordingly, I cannot confirm that I knew that

25 these were TO, Potocari, Suceska, and so on. As for the latter part

Page 5039

1 relating to the war hospital, I can talk about that because I -- when I

2 arrived, Hasanovic was manager of the hospital.

3 Q. I apologise, Dr. Mujkanovic. My question was up to -- related to

4 1 up to 9, and I come back later to the issue under 10. If your

5 experience is that those names were linked to units rather than official

6 TO or TO staff, but if you link it -- the place to units instead of the

7 word "TO," is it correct, is it consistent with your experience, that the

8 persons named there had, indeed, organised or were commanders of these

9 units?

10 A. Yes, except for the name under item 10. I don't recall the man,

11 Mustafa Durakovic, I never met him.

12 Q. You mean, Dr. Mujkanovic, under 9?

13 A. Nine, yes, that's correct. I apologise.

14 Q. Under 10, there are, and I quote: "services attached to the

15 Srebrenica TO." Can you confirm from your knowledge that such a war

16 hospital had been attached to the Srebrenica TO?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, he hasn't conceded at any moment that there

18 was a Srebrenica TO. I mean, I can't suggest to you, of course, because

19 he's your question -- your witness. You need to find an alternative way

20 of presenting it, Mr. Wubben.


22 Q. Is it your experience that Avdo Hasanovic had set up a war

23 hospital?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And has that war hospital been attached to the Srebrenica armed

Page 5040

1 forces?

2 A. The hospital served both the military and civilian purposes, for

3 all those who were wounded or injured. The doctors working therein were

4 soldiers at the same time.

5 Q. Is it your testimony that a signal -- signals and information

6 service was functioning who was set up by Hamed Alic?

7 MR. JONES: They are non-leading ways of asking all these

8 questions. Was there a signals and information service? If so, who set

9 it up.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are perfectly right, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I apologise.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Please rephrase your question, Mr. Wubben.


14 Q. Was there a signals and information service functioning, in your

15 experience?

16 A. I wasn't aware of this.

17 Q. And --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you know Hamed Alic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: How -- what can you tell us about Hamed Alic? What

21 was he doing when you came to know him? Was he responsible for anything?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was perhaps one of the first ones

23 I got to know because he was working in the post office across from the

24 hospital together with a man by the name of Ibrahim Becirevic. He was

25 establishing the radio links with Srebrenica and its surroundings, because

Page 5041

1 sometimes the civilians had to get in touch with their relatives who were

2 out on the ground. And that's where I met him. And I believe that he was

3 there until mid-January 1993. After that, I never saw him again. He had

4 allegedly left the Srebrenica enclave.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next question, Mr. Wubben.


7 Q. Do you know the name Mirsad Halilovic?

8 A. Yes, I knew that man as well.

9 Q. In your experience, was he linked to the organisation as mentioned

10 under 10, sub C?

11 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I'm afraid I'm going to be on my feet

12 most this morning or this afternoon. The question is: What did Mirsad

13 Halilovic do, if anything? Otherwise it's leading.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct. So he's put the question for you.

15 You told us that you knew Mirsad Halilovic. Yes. What was he

16 doing there?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time I knew him, I didn't

18 know exactly what his function was. Later on, in October/November, I got

19 to know that he was chief of the military police.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Does that satisfy your curiosity, Mr. Wubben,

21 or do you want to put further questions?

22 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour, and

23 I will finalise now -- I'm complete with this document, thank you. I will

24 go to another issue.

25 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, do you recall a person named Kemal Mehmetovic?

Page 5042

1 A. I knew the man, yes.

2 Q. What was his nickname?

3 A. Kemo from Pale.

4 Q. At the time in Srebrenica, what was his function? Was he a

5 soldier or a civilian?

6 A. I can't say whether he held any function. I don't believe so.

7 Q. But does that mean that you don't know whether he was a soldier?

8 A. He was quite an odd personality. It's very difficult to say

9 whether he was a soldier or not. The only thing I can tell you is that he

10 did wear -- that he did carry weapons.

11 Q. Do you recall, in the beginning of August 1992, an incident took

12 place with a human head?

13 MR. JONES: Do you recall any incident involving Kemal?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You create difficulties for me when you put such a

15 direct question. You can't put it the way you did.

16 MR. WUBBEN: I will --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But now you have --

18 MR. WUBBEN: I was not the one who linked that question with a

19 certain person. That's the Defence counsel, Your Honour.

20 MR. JONES: From the context.

21 MR. WUBBEN: That's your --

22 MR. JONES: This also has nothing to do with the indictment.

23 Perhaps Mr. Wubben should --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It does have to do with the credibility of other

25 witnesses as well, so let's -- let me take over for a while, and then I'll

Page 5043












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5044

1 give him back to you. And in the meantime, try to understand what I am

2 doing, both of you.

3 You've told us that you did know of a certain person, Kemal

4 Mehmetovic, that he was also known as Kemo from Pale; that he carried

5 arms, but that, to you, you are not in a position to tell us that he was a

6 soldier or that he had any specific function. How many times did you see

7 him, in Srebrenica, to start with?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd seen him many times.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there --

10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what were you going to tell us?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He'd usually walk around the town,

13 had this small truck that he drove. He was very often intoxicated, drunk,

14 of a very bad temper, picked fights with people very easily, and that's

15 why people shirked away from him, avoided him. He was actually quite a

16 difficult personality in terms of his mindset.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Was there any particular event, when you saw Kemal,

18 that has stuck in your memory that you could tell us about? Some special

19 occasion.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what event you have in

21 mind. There were always incidents in his vicinity. Not a day would go by

22 without him skidding the truck off to a ditch or walking the town drunk,

23 provoking people, picking on people, so that you would have to actually

24 specify the event that you have in mind.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but was there any particular occasion which was

Page 5045

1 quite out of the ordinary - it's not just his usual behaviour, but it's

2 something beyond -- which goes beyond that - that struck you as something

3 exceptional?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably you have the following

5 event in mind: In early August, immediately after my arrival in

6 Srebrenica, at the time I practically didn't know who he was, there was a

7 truckload of wounded people who were brought to the hospital and I wanted

8 to conduct my triage according to the degree of urgency based on their

9 wounds, because there was a large batch of persons who came across a

10 minefield. Many amputations had to be carried out, and we had to

11 prioritise among the wounded to see who ought to be operated on first.

12 There were many people in front of the hospital, trying to find

13 out if there were any relatives or members of their family among the

14 wounded. That was when Kemal showed up. He was perhaps some 20 or 30

15 metres away from the hospital, and I noticed him in the crowd. He showed

16 up holding a human head by the hair. Later on, I heard this story talked

17 about in the town, that he had brought a human head. I could not, with my

18 own eyes, ascertain that it was, indeed, a human head. I was looking at

19 him from about a 30-metre distance.

20 I believe he was responsible for another incident after this one,

21 and then he left the Srebrenica enclave. I believe it was sometime at the

22 end of 1992 that he left Srebrenica, but I don't know where he had gone.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: What other incident was he responsible for? Can you

24 be more specific?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reportedly, there was a bloody

Page 5046

1 vendetta for some sort of an incident dating from before, a vengeance of a

2 sort, where he killed a man. There was a beating involved. I'm telling

3 you what I heard, not what I saw.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right, yes, he's back to you, Mr. Wubben.

5 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I notice also the time. Is it scheduled

6 to have a break at a quarter past 12 or --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You have seven minutes, but as I always do, I invite

8 the parties to select the right moment for a break. It's up to you.

9 MR. WUBBEN: I think this is the right moment.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. Twenty-five minutes

11 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben, and I will invite Madam Vidovic or

14 Mr. Jones, I would like you to approach. I would like to tell you

15 something.

16 [Trial Chamber and counsel confer]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Wubben, one moment, because I must have

18 touched something here. All right, okay. No problem.

19 Let's continue, Mr. Wubben.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to ask the

21 assistance of the usher. Document P6, ERN number 01239515.

22 Q. Please, Dr. Mujkanovic, will you take a look at this document.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

25 A. The first half of the signature is covered by the stamp;

Page 5047

1 therefore, I cannot say with certainty that this is Naser Oric's

2 signature. The second half, though, looks much like his signature.

3 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, this is a document with the heading "Srebrenica

4 TO," and the date is the 3rd of September, 1992. In September 1992, I

5 take it that you were in Srebrenica. Were you at that time familiar --

6 did you know this decision or a kind of decision like this?

7 A. I'm not receiving any interpretation.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a technical problem. Could I ask you to

9 repeat your question. Maybe it's already solved.

10 Are you receiving interpretation now? Nothing. So it's not

11 solved, so there's no point in repeating the question. I will keep on

12 talking for a while until ...

13 Are you receiving interpretation now?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

16 Mr. Wubben, sorry for that interruption.

17 MR. WUBBEN: I don't know, Your Honour, where to start, so I'll

18 start from the beginning.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think because obviously there was -- the number,

20 the channel number, had been changed so he couldn't have possibly received

21 any interpretations -- interpretation from the very moment we started

22 after the break.

23 MR. WUBBEN: Okay.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But he was answering your questions before, so I

25 don't know what happened. He has told us so far that he cannot really

Page 5048

1 recognise the signature, although the part which is not superimposed by

2 the stamp seems to look similar to that of Naser Oric. And then you asked

3 him to have a look at the text of this document, and you said:

4 "Dr. Mujkanovic, this is a document with the heading "Srebrenica

5 TO," and the date is the 3rd of September, 1992. In September 1992, I

6 take it that you were in Srebrenica. Were you at that time familiar --

7 did you know this decision or a kind of decision like this?"

8 I have repeated verbatim what you had asked the witness. So that

9 is the question that you need to answer now.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with this kind of

11 decision.


13 Q. Do you know, as of the -- of September 1992, the naming of, and I

14 quote, "staff of the armed forces of Srebrenica, the Srebrenica armed

15 forces staff"?

16 A. It was only once I became a member of the operations staff of the

17 armed forces of Srebrenica, in the second half of September, was I aware

18 of what was going on.

19 Q. We will come to that issue later on. Thank you.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Usher, will you assist me with the following

21 document: P176, ERN number 03720933.

22 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, would you please take a look at that document.

23 A. I've had a look.

24 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, do you recognise the signature?

25 A. The first part is covered by the stamp; it's illegible. The

Page 5049

1 second part looks like Naser Oric's signature.

2 Q. The wording of the document reads, in the head, "Srebrenica Armed

3 Forces Staff," the date, "Srebrenica, 3rd September 1992," and naming the

4 decision, "The operations staff of the Srebrenica armed forces shall be

5 established as the constituent part of the Srebrenica armed forces staff."

6 Is that decision, like that, consistent with your experience at

7 that time, in September 1992, in Srebrenica?

8 A. In mid-September, the second half of September, the operations

9 staff of Srebrenica was set up and I became a member. That's what I know.

10 This is the first time I see this decision, and I wasn't familiar with

11 this decision at the time. I do know that Osman Osmanovic was the chief

12 of the operations staff.

13 Q. And what you know about Osman Osmanovic, that is your experience

14 from September 1992.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Following --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because he said -- the witness said this

18 is the first time he is seeing this decision.

19 Are you sure it's the first time you're seeing this decision?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this decision when the OTP

21 showed me a copy. At the time I said that I'd never seen it before. I'm

22 just repeating what I've already stated. That was when I first saw this

23 decision, of course, in that case, this being the second time. My

24 understanding was -- you asked about me seeing this decision prior to the

25 last several days that I've spent here.

Page 5050

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No, because you said this is the first time you're

2 seeing this decision, and I have reason to believe that this is not the

3 first time you're seeing this decision; that, as you said, you were shown

4 this decision before. Do you remember, when was that, whether it was days

5 or months ago or years ago?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not years ago. I think the first

7 time this was shown me was in June last year, and then it was shown again

8 some days ago. But I thought your question was to the effect whether I'd

9 seen this decision while I was still in Srebrenica.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, it's because you said this is the first

11 time you're seeing this decision. So basically, I take it, this is the

12 third time you're seeing it; it was shown to you in June, it was shown to

13 you some days ago, and you're seeing it now, today; correct?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

16 MR. WUBBEN: I would like to move now to Exhibit number P79, and

17 I've been informed that the registrar will provide a copy of the English

18 translation.

19 Q. Please, Dr. Mujkanovic, take a look at this.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why? We have an English translation. When it was

21 tendered way back, I don't know when, it was tendered with an English

22 translation.

23 MR. WUBBEN: You're correct, Your Honour. It should be the B/C/S

24 version.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but we have the B/C/S version as well, so

Page 5051

1 what's wrong? I am not understanding.

2 [Trial Chamber and the registrar confer]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move ahead. But for your

4 information, Mr. Wubben, I know that you are using supposedly what you

5 refer to as the original, but in our records, we have this document in

6 B/C/S and in English, and it's marked, as you said, P79.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you for this confirmation. And I add to it,

8 Your Honour, the ERN number 02078514.



11 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, did you have a look at this document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This document reads in the heading "Operations Staff Srebrenica,"

14 and dated "Srebrenica, 19 September 1992." In short, it starts

15 with "Draft Decision," it is -- where it is signed, it has the reference,

16 chief of the operations staff of the armed forces, Osman Osmanovic. Do

17 you know Osman Osmanovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it your experience that he was, in fact, in September, indeed,

20 the chief of the operations staff of the armed forces, if so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, will you please take a look further at the redaction of this

23 document, and there is a listing 1 up to 11.

24 A. I've read this.

25 Q. Above that there is a sentence that ends, and I quote, "proposes

Page 5052

1 that the operations staff of the armed forces in Srebrenica consists of

2 the following departments and people." Now, my question to you is:

3 When -- upon -- sorry, upon reading the names and the linked departments

4 or one organ and one functioning as a recording secretary, is it your

5 experience in your times in Srebrenica that these persons linked to those

6 specific parts were functioning in the operations staff?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So to be specific, the persons mentioned 1 up to 11, that is, to

9 your knowledge, from September 1992, functioning within that operations

10 staff?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Does that include that the person mentioned as Mustafa Salihovic

13 was, indeed, recording as the secretary of such a meeting, or don't you

14 know?

15 A. He was there at the meetings I attended.

16 Q. And my question is: Was he recording at that meeting, or don't

17 you know?

18 A. What do you mean, "recording"?

19 Q. Taking minutes or writing down specific parts, what was discussed

20 or whatever, to record -- to make records.

21 A. Yes, by hand.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. WUBBEN: The following -- next document, usher, please, is

24 number P8. P8 with the ERN number 01239518.

25 Q. This is a decision, Dr. Mujkanovic, and I'll read out the head

Page 5053

1 now: "Srebrenica Municipality Armed Forces War Presidency, Srebrenica,

2 14th of October 1992," and then there's a decision on naming and

3 appointing "Osman Osmanovic Srebrenica is hereby named and appointed as

4 the chief of staff of OS," armed forces. And then under 5: "This

5 decision comes into effect on the day of its adoption. The named and

6 appointed person must report immediately to the commander of the armed

7 forces."

8 When it comes to your experience in Srebrenica, from the time you

9 were there, is it, to your knowledge, an experience that the named person,

10 Osman Osmanovic, reported to the commander of the armed forces?

11 A. I assume so.

12 Q. What do you mean by "assume so," because either you have

13 experience as such report or you don't know.

14 A. I really can't say whether he reported to the commander of the

15 armed forces. I assume he did. But Osman did not report to me to say who

16 he had reported to. I really can't answer the question, whether he

17 reported to anyone, including the commander of the armed forces. I don't

18 know. I did say that I certainly assumed that he did.

19 Q. Do you know who was in the chain of command above Osman Osmanovic?

20 A. Above Osman Osmanovic in the chain of command, there was the

21 commander of the armed forces.

22 Q. And who was at the time the commander of the armed forces?

23 A. The commander of the armed forces at the time was Naser Oric.

24 MR. JONES: May I, Your Honour, just on this document. My learned

25 friend says it's headed "Srebrenica Municipality Armed Forces War

Page 5054

1 Presidency." In fact, it says "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, opstina

2 Srebrenica," so Srebrenica municipality, "War Presidency." So the heading

3 itself doesn't say anything about the armed forces. The "OS" might have

4 misled my learned friend, being "Opstina Srebrenica" rather than "oruzane

5 snage," armed forces, but it's clear from the Bosnian.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that observation.

7 MR. JONES: I would also point out that this is signed by Hajrudin

8 Avdic, president of the War Presidency, to get that onto the record.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that observation, Mr. Jones, which is

10 correct.

11 MR. WUBBEN: I can confirm, Your Honour, that that's what is meant

12 by the OS.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is also confirmation of it by the first line

14 of the text. Again, you see "Opstina Srebrenica."

15 Yes, let's proceed.

16 MR. WUBBEN: The following document is P84, and I would like the

17 assistance of the usher to hand over to Dr. Mujkanovic a document. It is

18 a memo pad under the ERN number 02115040.

19 Q. Please take a look at this memo pad.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you familiar with any use of a memo pad or a war diary like

22 this within a TO, an army or ...

23 A. I'll try to be crystal clear about this. I have seen this

24 document before, but when I did was the first time. I did not know that

25 there was a document that talked about this writing, diary, whatever.

Page 5055

1 Q. Now, Dr. Mujkanovic, if you look --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.


4 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, if you take a look at the book when it is -- the

5 diary when it is closed, totally closed, please, will you close the diary?

6 Thank you. If you take a look at it, are you familiar with memo pads or

7 war diaries or diaries used in armed forces who looks like this, this

8 appearance?

9 A. I'm not. This is a notebook. It was used by the TO of the

10 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.

11 Q. Do you mean that a book like that, a war diary like that, was

12 commonly used, as such, in the army?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, can we place it, a little bit, the cover I

14 mean, on the ELMO so that the public can see what we're talking about.

15 Yes, and can you open it up a little bit, please, just the first page.

16 Okay, you can remove it now. Thank you.

17 Yes, Mr. Wubben.


19 Q. Dr. Mujkanovic, will you please go from the page, in the B/C/S

20 version you have in front of you, 02115042, and then page by page, to 46,

21 the last two.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose that's in the original or ...?

23 MR. WUBBEN: That's in the original.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And what's the equivalent in English?

25 MR. WUBBEN: It's 6 -- 03090706 up to 010 --

Page 5056


2 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry, not 010, 710.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Wubben.


5 Q. Now, if you take a look at the B/C/S, ERN number 02115042 and 43,

6 and that's English ERN 06 and 07, Your Honour --



9 Q. There is on 07 -- and that's my English version, and

10 Dr. Mujkanovic, on your version, it is -- it's the version started with --

11 it is 42, and I quote, and I hope you will see it, please

12 confirm: "Second meeting of the armed forces operations staff." It's 44,

13 Dr. Mujkanovic. Is that correct? Do you see a heading like that on ERN

14 02115044?

15 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.

16 Q. Now, in the page -- on the page with the ERN number, in English,

17 08, and in B/C/S, Dr. Mujkanovic, ERN 02115046, we see, and I quote,

18 heading started with, "Minutes, 3 October 1992."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you earlier referred to a meeting you participated in, did

21 you participate in a meeting of the operations staff on the 3rd of

22 October, 1992?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. Please go to ERN 02115044, Dr. Mujkanovic, and 707 for the

25 English. There is a reference to a second meeting, as already confirmed

Page 5057

1 to you, of the armed forces operations staff. This second meeting, did

2 you participate in such a second meeting of the armed forces operations

3 staff as it is possible before the 3rd of October, 1992, in the order of

4 the diary?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. Now we go, prior to that second meeting, to ERN 02115042, that's

7 the B/C/S, and the English version is 03090706 [Realtime transcript read

8 in error "00790776"].

9 A. Yes, I did attend that one.

10 Q. So is that meeting --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because for the record, it -- the

12 English version is said to be 00790776, the last three digits are 706, or

13 should be 706 and 776. Yes, go ahead, Mr. Wubben, please.


15 Q. Did you attend that meeting?

16 A. Yes, I did, the first one.

17 Q. Is it correct that there were -- at the meeting you experienced,

18 there were around nine members?

19 A. I can't remember how many there were, but it was a meeting of the

20 staff that I attended.

21 Q. Now, is it correct that -- if you recall, of course, can you

22 confirm that Osmanovic, Nedret, and the other names mentioned in the first

23 paragraph, took part in a discussion?

24 A. Whenever I attended, I took part in the discussions, so that much

25 is true.

Page 5058

1 Q. Can you confirm, as in the minutes further on, the name Osman

2 appeared, and there is a reference to, a military corps [sic] must be

3 formed. Do you recall that issue at the meeting?

4 A. A military corps? I don't really understand the term, the

5 terminology.

6 Q. I take that for an answer, thank you. I will now proceed on the

7 part of the staff members. There is a listing 1 up to 10, including a

8 kind of bold arrow, there are persons named, and there are, well, units or

9 departments. Please read them.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it your experience that the staff members, indeed, performed

12 such duties or were linked to these kind of functions or departments?

13 A. After the establishment of the operations staff, all the staff

14 members worked in the different areas they were assigned to, as, indeed,

15 written down here.

16 Q. Under 1 up to 10.

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, please allow me to repeat my prior

19 question, because I was -- noticed that when I asked the witness that a

20 person called Osman was referred to -- that a military corps must be

21 formed, that, indeed, it had been noted as corps instead of court, with a

22 T. So please allow me to ask that question again.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. And if need be, we will have the first

24 page of the diary, or whatever you call it, on the ELMO so that, if there

25 is a difficulty in the interpretation, we will be able to refer to the

Page 5059

1 specific entry.

2 Usher, could you put on the ELMO, please, ERN 042, 042, which is,

3 I suppose, the first page.


5 Q. Please, Dr. Mujkanovic, look at the text under paragraph 1. They

6 are referring to the name Osman, and then "a military court must be

7 formed." Do you recall that an issue like that has been discussed?

8 A. At this particular meeting, following the establishment of the

9 operations staff, as indeed contained in these minutes, there was a

10 discussion about the establishment of units and about the organisation of

11 the armed forces in the area of Srebrenica, according to the military

12 doctrine, in other words, that platoons, companies, battalions, and

13 brigades are to be established, and whatever, of course, came under and

14 was entailed by the establishment of such units. There was also

15 discussion about the establishment of a military court.

16 Q. And what do you mean by military doctrine?

17 A. I mean to say that the units had to be established the way I said,

18 platoon, company, battalion, brigade, and the other military organisations

19 that come under it, up to the strength of a brigade.

20 Q. All right. Now, what had been said about this military court,

21 Dr. Mujkanovic?

22 A. Nothing else was said other than that a military court had to be

23 established as a component part of setting up military structures in the

24 area of Srebrenica.

25 Q. Now, my question is: We already have read through a part of this

Page 5060

1 page 42. Have you also took a look at page within -- 43?

2 A. Yes, I've taken a look.

3 Q. Can I take it that page -- the two pages, 42 and ending up with 43

4 of the war diary, are an accurate reflection of the minutes you took part

5 of?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer, because I don't quite

7 know how this was translated to you. Actually, I looked at you,

8 Mr. Wubben, because I heard you say "an accurate reflection of the minutes

9 you took part of." I think you meant to say "the meeting you took part

10 of," and I don't know how that was translated.

11 So we're talking of the meeting, and whether the minutes, what are

12 purported to be minutes, what you're reading now, reflects accurately what

13 went on during that meeting that you attended, Dr. Mujkanovic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

17 Q. I would like to move on to another document, P177, a decision, the

18 7th of February, 1993. That's ERN number 037209334.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The first question is: Do you recognise the signature at the down

21 end? There are several signatures. One signature, and I quote in

22 English, "Srebrenica Armed Forces Commander," that signature, do you

23 recognise that signature?

24 A. The signature is quite illegible, and I cannot state with any

25 certainty that it does look like his signature.

Page 5061

1 Q. This is a document with the heading "War Presidency of the

2 subregion Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik municipalities,"

3 dated Srebrenica, 7 February 1993. My question is: In the further

4 heading of the first part of this decision, it is referring to a War

5 Presidency of the subregion and the staff of the subregion, the armed

6 forces. Are you familiar with this subregion, to your experience?

7 A. I heard of the expression.

8 Q. But, to your knowledge, you don't know about -- you can't tell the

9 Judges about the functioning of the subregion, or the area involved?

10 A. I know approximately that there were certain activities taking

11 place geared to provide an effective defence for Srebrenica, Vlasenica,

12 Bratunac, and Zvornik, in late 1992 and early 1993, and that at the time

13 there was a discussion about grouping, amalgamating, units and setting up

14 a single authority for the area, in order for the human resources

15 important for the defence of the area, as well as the materiel and

16 technical equipment, to be utilised fully. Now, whether this subregion

17 was actually established or not, I cannot tell you because I never really

18 learnt whether it was established and whether it actually functioned as

19 such. I think that this was rather an idea of how to use the human and

20 materiel and technical potentials in the area for the defence.

21 Q. Had this idea been established in such a way that decisions were

22 made upon it, to execute, to implement, that idea?

23 A. I've said that I didn't know whether it was formed, and I said

24 that this Salihovic was president of the War Presidency of the subregion

25 because I know that at the time he was the one in charge for security and

Page 5062

1 intelligence in the staff. But I couldn't really give you a certain

2 judgement as to whether the subregion functioned or not. I was telling

3 you that this was an idea present in 1993 when it was thought that this

4 whole area should be united into a single region in order to increase its

5 efficiency.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, my next issue is a different issue, so

8 it seems reasonable to stop here.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We will stop here for the day. I think it must have

10 been tiring for everyone, not least, of course, yourself, Mr. Wubben.

11 We'll reconvene tomorrow. Is it -- are we still working in this

12 courtroom tomorrow? You think you can check whether there is any other

13 availability, just in case? No. But keep checking. In case we can

14 transfer to some other courtroom, we'll do our best.

15 Dr. Mujkanovic, we have to stop here for today because we must

16 make the courtroom available for another case which will sit in the

17 afternoon. We will meet again tomorrow morning. Thank you.

18 In the meantime, it's important that you do not contact, or let

19 anyone contact you in relation to the matters that you are testifying

20 upon, okay? Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of

23 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.