Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5868

1 Tuesday, 15 March 2005.

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar. Good afternoon to you. Could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Mr. Oric, can you follow the

10 proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Oric, and good afternoon to you

14 too.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

17 lead counsel for the Prosecution. Also good afternoon to the Defence.

18 I'm here together with co-counsel, Gramsci Di Fazio, and our case manager,

19 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and as usual good afternoon

21 to you and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours; good

24 afternoon to my learned friends from the OTP. My name is Vasvija

25 Vidovic. Together with Mr. Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. We have

Page 5869

1 with us today our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, Miss Adisa Mehic, as

2 well as our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good afternoon to

4 you and your team.

5 Any preliminaries?

6 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's bring the witness in, please.

8 [The witness entered court]


10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Colonel. You may sit down. We'll

11 be continuing with your testimony. I apologize to you for starting late,

12 but we had a technical problem that we had to solve before we could

13 continue.

14 Mr. Di Fazio.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

17 Q. Colonel Tucker, yesterday we got to the point where you had

18 described General Morillon's failed escape attempt, shall we call it that,

19 failed escape attempt. He didn't get very far, and the consternation that

20 developed when you put him into your sleeping bag instead of his own and

21 guards were running around looking for him.

22 So you also mentioned yesterday that he had decided to diffuse the

23 situation by announcing that he would not leave Srebrenica until certain

24 things had occurred. That decision -- sorry, my question is: When did

25 he make that decision to diffuse the situation by effectively saying,

Page 5870

1 "Well, I will remain in captivity and refuse to leave until such time as

2 other developments occurred"?

3 A. General Morillon made that decision during the night whilst he was

4 standing alone in that destroyed house alongside the road, watching the

5 refugees come in. And the reason I say that is that when he came back in,

6 the first time that Mihailov and I saw him again early in the morning, he

7 said, "I'm going to stay."

8 Q. Thank you. Did he decide that he would issue a speech announcing

9 his decision?

10 A. No, he hadn't -- he didn't mention that at that stage. My concern

11 was that the general was so tired and that he needed some -- some rest and

12 he said, "We will discuss it when I get -- when I wake up."

13 Q. Okay. Well, I think your evidence yesterday was that he managed

14 to get some sleep and later in the morning, wake up, and can you please

15 take up the narrative from that point. And I'm particularly interested in

16 the speech, any speech that he may have decided to issue.

17 A. When General Morillon woke up, it was about 10.00 or so in the

18 morning and he discussed with me what it was that he might do. He then

19 met with members of the Srebrenica War Presidency and said to them that he

20 would -- would stay. And in discussion with them it came up that he

21 should make a declaration, which would be out loud to the refugees who

22 were surrounding the PTT building.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you and he proceed to draft a speech?

24 A. Yes. I did the writing and he told me what he wanted to say and

25 we discussed each section as we wrote it down, then I actually wrote it

Page 5871

1 down. Meanwhile, the war committee were looking for a loudhailer, but in

2 fact they didn't have one and the Canadian APC, for some strange reason,

3 had a loudhailer in it.

4 Q. Thank you. Were you able to eventually settle upon a draft?

5 A. Yes. Yes, we did.

6 Q. And did General Morillon, in fact, deliver that speech?

7 A. Yes, he did.

8 Q. From where?

9 A. He delivered it from the first floor window of the PTT -- the new

10 PTT building. And it was -- General Morillon read out one -- it's in

11 English, from the -- this notebook. And then the UNHCR translator, who

12 was there from, I think it was from Belgrade, then translated that

13 sentence into Serbo-Croat and General Morillon read out the next sentence

14 and the translator --

15 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Did you make various entries in your diary

16 relating to the draft text of the speech?

17 A. No. I wrote down the text as General Morillon dictated it. We

18 would discuss a section, then he would dictate and I wrote, discuss a

19 section, he'd dictate and I wrote.

20 Q. Thank you. But you made entries relating to the text of his

21 speech and he was telling you what the text should be.

22 A. That's correct.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he dictating in English or was he dictating in

24 French?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were speaking in French and when

Page 5872

1 it came to the exact words, then it was in English.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And he made his speech or he read his speech from

3 the diary in English?

4 THE WITNESS: Correct.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


7 Q. Incidentally, you are a fluent French speaker, are you not?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And German and Dutch.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: And German and Dutch. Thank you.

11 Q. I just want to briefly show you a photograph, please, which is

12 available to Your Honours on Sanction. Hard copies are available as well.

13 Would you just take a look at that photograph, please.

14 You have the photograph. Who is the man in the foreground with

15 the UN flag?

16 A. That is General Morillon.

17 Q. You may or may not be able to tell us, but have you any idea,

18 could you venture an answer as to when that photograph might have been

19 taken? On the day of the speech or on some other occasion?

20 A. That photograph was taken later on the same day of the speech. I

21 went up with him, together with a couple of news reporters, journalists

22 who were there at the time.

23 Q. Thank you. And can you tell Their Honours, what is that white

24 building that you see directly across with a mound of dirt rising up to

25 its doors?

Page 5873

1 A. That's the Srebrenica hospital that I was referring to yesterday.

2 Q. Yes, thank you.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender this photograph, if Your Honours please.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So this would be 5 --

5 THE REGISTRAR: P514, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So this photograph, which I don't see an ERN number

7 to it, is being tendered by the Prosecution and admitted and marked as

8 Prosecution Exhibit P514. Thank you.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Q. I would just like to show you, Colonel Tucker, a short -- couple

11 of short excerpts from a video, please.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, these are excerpts from

13 Exhibit P432. Would Your Honours just bear with me. I just want to make

14 I've got my exhibit number right. I was correct, it's portions from

15 Exhibit P432.

16 Q. Colonel Tucker, I just want you to look at the events that are

17 being depicted. They're very brief excerpts. Thanks.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Stop there, please. In fact, could we go back a

20 bit, please. Back to the beginning.

21 THE WITNESS: My apologies, sir. [Cell phone ringing]


23 Q. Right. Perhaps if we just play and get -- hold it there. I don't

24 think there is any dispute, that's General Morillon, is it not?

25 A. That is General Morillon.

Page 5874

1 Q. Yes?

2 A. On the day that we were prevented from leaving.

3 Q. Yes, okay. So that's the, in effect, the day before?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Right. And just play on, please.

6 [Videotape played]

7 Q. You can't see the face very well because of the writing, but who

8 is the gentleman standing up there?

9 A. It's a Canadian sergeant.

10 Q. Oh, I see. All right. Continue, please.

11 [Videotape played]

12 Q. Please look at this excerpt as well.

13 [Videotape played]

14 Q. Do you recognise what's being shown and the occasion?

15 A. Yes. That is when General Morillon read out the statement --

16 General Morillon on the right, just by the flag, and the person to the

17 left is the UNHCR translator.

18 Q. Thank you. And is that the bull horn that you were talking about

19 before.

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Thanks.

22 [Videotape played]

23 Q. Is that General Morillon?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Thanks.

Page 5875

1 [Videotape played]

2 Q. Thanks. So you can see large numbers of people assembled on both

3 occasions. Both when you were prevented from leaving and the following

4 day when the general gave his message, read out his message having made

5 his decision to stay. There were refugees milling all around the PTT

6 building and the area where you were quartered, so to speak. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Thanks. Now, was it of significance to get the text of the

10 message, this position that General Morillon had adopted, to the outside

11 world as well as deliver it to the refugees and the populace of

12 Srebrenica?

13 A. Yes, it was important. Firstly, there had been two journalists

14 present who had recorded some of the footage that you saw. And we

15 arranged for the videotapes that they had taken to be taken out of the

16 enclave by UN military observers who were departing later that evening.

17 And secondly, the Srebrenica war committee offered to General

18 Morillon to be able to speak with journalists in Sarajevo over the

19 communications equipment, which was in one of the rooms on the first floor

20 of the PTT building.

21 Q. Thanks. I'm going to return to this topic shortly, but I need to

22 diverge just very briefly. You just mentioned that videotapes were taken

23 out of the enclave by UN military observers.

24 Was it -- would it have been possible for officials - for example,

25 those in the military; for example, those in the War Presidency; for

Page 5876

1 example, those in whatever police forces existed - to send out material,

2 documents -- within reason, of course, I'm not talking about bulky stuff

3 -- but to send out material with those UNMOs who were leaving the area

4 and with your vehicles and with your party? In other words to get stuff

5 -- documentation out of the enclave?

6 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I would object to that question as being

7 speculative. So far this witness has given evidence of journalists,

8 internationals giving things to UNMOs. As to whether or not anyone else

9 could have done that, that is purely speculative, in my submission.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, the witness has testified that UNMOs were

11 able to take videotapes out.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: My question is, well, okay, if they're able to take

14 videotapes out, could officials within the enclave have given them other

15 things, like for example papers, or reports of some sort?

16 MR. JONES: That's why it's speculative. Could they? I mean

17 anything is possible. Could they have --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, no.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: My question is the means.

20 MR. JONES: Well, fair enough, Your Honours, if you wish to allow

21 the question.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it is a perfectly legitimate question and

23 I'm sure the colonel knows exactly whether he is in a position to answer

24 that without speculating.

25 We don't want any speculation on your part. No guessing. You've

Page 5877

1 heard the discussion, so what's --

2 THE WITNESS: We would have been able to do so.


4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. Providing that it did not materially affect military operations.

6 We would refuse absolutely to be party to anything which was assisting the

7 military operations on one side or the other.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, if I may return to the issue of the necessity to

9 provide the text of the speech to the outside world, so to speak. You

10 said the War Presidency was agreeable to this notion?

11 A. The War Presidency made the suggestion to General Morillon.

12 Q. It was their idea?

13 A. It was their idea.

14 Q. Thank you. And was General Morillon happy with the notion?

15 A. Yes. Completely.

16 Q. And was there any -- what means were adopted to get the message to

17 the outside world, the text of the speech?

18 A. We found that a room next to the room where we had been meeting

19 with the War Presidency on the first floor of the PTT building was, in

20 fact, a fully equipped radio room with sophisticated high frequency and

21 other radio communications equipments.

22 Q. Thanks. Now I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber the

23 basis for which you say that. Firstly, did you ever go in there or was it

24 -- was this explained to you?

25 A. I went into that room, together with General Morillon, after the

Page 5878

1 General had made his speech from the -- the one that we saw on the

2 videotapes just a moment ago. And we were taken in there by the -- by

3 members of the War Presidency. There were radio operators in that room,

4 and we waited five, ten minutes whilst the radio operators established

5 communications, I believe with Sarajevo, and for the journalists at the

6 other end to get to the radios.

7 And then Morillon sat down, put on the headphones which were given

8 to him by the operators, and then carried on a series of interviews with a

9 number of journalists who, I believe, were in Sarajevo.

10 Q. Well, why do you believe that they were in Sarajevo? What makes

11 you say that? What's the basis for your belief?

12 A. Because that's what the journalists said.

13 Q. How long did that take, approximately?

14 A. It went on and off for most of the rest of that evening.

15 Q. I see. So -- well, more than a matter of a few minutes?

16 A. Yes. It was about 20 minutes and then that journalist would go.

17 And then half an hour later, somebody from the War Presidency would come

18 to General Morillon and say we've got another journalist, can you come and

19 speak with him and he would go up and speak.

20 I only went in the first couple of times because by that stage it

21 was the same thing that was being repeated again and again. So I didn't

22 go in for the subsequent conversations.

23 Q. Was there, as far as you're aware, were there any difficulties

24 being experienced in transmitting the radio message to what you believed

25 was Sarajevo?

Page 5879

1 A. Not at that time.

2 Q. Were you aware of any difficulties that the operators faced in

3 getting that radio, that machinery to function? Not necessarily on this

4 occasion, but on any occasion throughout the period of time you were

5 there?

6 A. I'm aware that there were times that the water powered generator,

7 which they used to create electricity, broke down a couple of times and

8 needed fixing.

9 Q. Just explain to the Trial Chamber, if you would, the - briefly -

10 the means of generating electricity that you thought was supplying at

11 least the radio that you've mentioned.

12 A. At the back of the PTT building there was a mountain stream of

13 quite fast flowing water.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: He explained this yesterday.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: He did. He explained it yesterday and that was --

17 connected to a Dynamo, and we even heard that it supplied a little bit of

18 electricity that was needed in the hospital too.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful, Your Honours. That's a lapse of

20 memory on my part.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a question of age, Mr. Di Fazio.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I forgot that I'd dealt with it. Thank you, I'm

23 grateful to Your Honours.

24 Q. Okay. Apart from this communication to the journalists on the day

25 of the speech, was General Morillon or indeed yourself able to use those

Page 5880

1 radio facilities at any other stage during your stay?

2 A. General Morillon used them at least once to carry on conversation

3 with Dr. Ganic who was in the Presidency in Sarajevo.

4 Q. Can you comment on the type of radio that you saw in that room and

5 its relative sophistication or lack of sophistication.

6 A. I'm not a radio expert, but I've seen many radios and used many

7 radios and it was a big solid commercial -- by "large" what I mean is

8 about -- it was in a whole wall which was about two, three metres long by

9 about three metres high and there was a bench in front, a desk and there

10 were two operators sat in front of it. They had headphones. There were

11 many switches, many dials. This was not something that you would go out

12 as an individual and by in a shop. This was -- I mean, what you would

13 expect in a PTT building. It was a big serious piece of machinery.

14 Q. Thanks. Why didn't you use radio sets that you had, that your BH

15 command party had, the sets, the radio sets in the vehicles?

16 A. The radio sets that we had in our vehicles, we had two types. We

17 had an HF radio, which is a long distance radio, which is in the UNHCR

18 vehicle, but it was of a particular type that could only communicate with

19 other similar radio sets that UNHCR had. And UNHCR's other radio station

20 was in Kiseljak, in the village.

21 Q. Thank you. Following that, all the activity surrounding the use

22 of the radio set and any interviews with journalists on that day, did you

23 and General Morillon basically retire and do nothing further on that

24 particular day?

25 A. No. There was a lot of activity because General Morillon was now

Page 5881

1 welcomed as a hero and the women of the women's committee established

2 General Morillon in two rooms on the first floor of the PTT building.

3 They moved out mines and explosives and broken equipment.

4 Q. Was that on the -- was that on the 13th, was it?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Yes and were those rooms made available for your party?

7 A. Yes, they were.

8 Q. Was a small heater brought in?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. And was that basically where you quartered yourselves for the

11 remainder of your stay in the Srebrenica area?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Were tension levels diffused following the decision of General

14 Morillon to remain in Srebrenica in the -- in the issuing of his speech?

15 A. Yes. Tension was dramatically reduced.

16 Q. Did you have meetings with the War Presidency on the following

17 day, the 14th of March?

18 A. Yes, we did.

19 Q. Can you recall what the -- what basically the topics of

20 conversation were?

21 A. The topics of conversation on that day centered mainly around what

22 the needs of the refugees were and the desirability of getting

23 humanitarian aid convoy in and the desirability of getting a cease-fire

24 and cessation of hostilities.

25 Q. Was there any visit to the lines of confrontation on that day, the

Page 5882

1 14th of March?

2 A. Yes. On that day, in the afternoon, after meeting with the War

3 Presidency, General Morillon persuaded them that it would be helpful for

4 him, General Morillon, to go to the front line to meet with the Serbs in

5 order to try and negotiate a cease-fire.

6 Q. Did you accompany him?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Who else went with you to the front lines, to the confrontation

9 lines?

10 A. Mihailov went with us, obviously a Canadian crew of the armoured

11 personnel carrier, and a Bosniak officer.

12 Q. Why was the Bosniak officer there?

13 A. My own view is that he was there to check that we were going to do

14 what we had promised we were going to do, but that wasn't -- that was not

15 said out loud.

16 Q. Did you or General Morillon request his presence?

17 A. No. The War Presidency requested that he came with us.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio -- [Microphone not activated].

19 Mr. Di Fazio. Colonel, I notice in your entry on the 14th of

20 March "Our HF comms are being jammed." Please --

21 MR. DI FAZIO: What page is that, Your Honour?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 3450. Do you recall making this entry?


24 JUDGE AGIUS: And were they being jammed?


Page 5883

1 JUDGE AGIUS: By who?

2 THE WITNESS: I believe by the Serbs.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: By the Serbs. I see. So that was one other reason

4 why you asked to be able to make use of the radio transmitter that was in

5 the PTT building?

6 THE WITNESS: On the day that General Morillon made the

7 announcement, we had not yet suffered jamming.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. So it started precisely after that --

9 General Morillon had made his statement?

10 THE WITNESS: That is correct.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

13 Q. Now, the Bosniak officer was there at the request of the War

14 Presidency. You were going to speak to the Serbs at the confrontation

15 line. Was he going to be, in your view, of any use to you in that

16 situation?

17 A. No. In fact, he was a major constraint because it meant that we

18 could not go up to, or run the risk of getting close to any Serbs because

19 we could not run the risk of him being seen by the Serbs.

20 Q. Well, in those circumstances, is there any reason why you didn't

21 take him, or rather, refused to take him?

22 A. It was General Morillon's decision.

23 Q. Thank you. The radio room that you have described, was it

24 guarded?

25 A. Yes. We were -- until the war committee suggested to General

Page 5884

1 Morillon that he speak to journalists from that room, we were not even

2 aware that it was a radio room. It was just a room which we had not been

3 allowed into.

4 Q. And who was guarding it, do you know?

5 A. Bosniak soldiers.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, if we can just return to the 14th. You said that

7 you were -- you went up to the lines of confrontation. You've told us who

8 went, including the Bosniak officer.

9 What topics were raised with the Serbs, if you indeed managed to

10 speak to them?

11 A. The Serbs were not expecting us and we only spoke with the -- that

12 Serb colonel who was commanding the soldiers at the section of the front

13 line by the yellow bridge, which is on the road between Potocari and

14 Bratunac.

15 Q. Did you, in subsequent days, have a number of negotiations with

16 the Serbs at this point you have called the yellow bridge?

17 A. Yes. We had a number of meetings, the most significant of which

18 was with General Milovanovic who was the chief of staff of the Bosnian

19 Serb army and who was based at Han Pijesak.

20 Q. Thanks. I would just like to very briefly show you a map and ask

21 you to indicate on it, if you can, the -- where the yellow bridge is.

22 Thanks.

23 Perhaps if you could put it on the ELMO, or if the usher could put

24 it on the ELMO for you, and then if you could just mark it perhaps with a

25 marking pen the position of the yellow bridge.

Page 5885

1 A. I have circled where the yellow bridge is. It was a stream which

2 was running underneath the road. And the Serb front lines were

3 immediately on that side of it.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you please put an initial next to the part

6 that you have marked on the plan, on the map, and then sign the map

7 wherever you like and then we'll give it a number. I thank you kindly.

8 So this will be P515; correct?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, 515.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've dealt with the map and finished.

12 Q. I now want you to just look at an entry in your diary, please.

13 The portion of your diary that I am interested in you will find in the

14 photocopied section at 3463 to 3464 and 3465. I apologise for skipping

15 around a bit, but it's -- firstly, if you go to 3463, our photocopy is not

16 very clear. Can you see the date that's actually -- that those entries

17 relate to?

18 A. Let me refer to my diary, if I may.

19 Q. Yes. Thank you.

20 A. In my diary, it says 15 March 1200 TACSAT message.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher, could we have the page put on the ELMO

22 please, for the public to be able to follow. Thank you. Sorry for having

23 interrupted you in the way I did. I apologise to you. Yes, you were

24 saying in my diary it says 15 March, 1200.


Page 5886

1 Q. Thank you. Were those messages relating to events that had

2 happened on the previous day, the 14th?

3 A. Either the previous day or earlier that day.

4 Q. Thank you. It contemplates, if you look at 3463, halfway down the

5 page, referring to what General Morillon is going to do "a request of the

6 UN Security Council to disclose ..." Sorry. What's that word, D --

7 declare, "... declare the region of Srebrenica, Bratunac, Konjevic Polje,

8 Cerska, Skelani a UN-protected area. He will propose this to General

9 Mladic at a meeting between Bratunac and Srebrenica at 1500 hours today."

10 Now, had that notion or idea been raised the day before, that is

11 the 14th?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Thank you. And the meeting that was to take place on the 15th of

14 March at 3.00 in the afternoon, between Bratunac and Srebrenica, was that

15 also the yellow bridge?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Thank you. The second message that you appear to have wanted to

18 send out was to a General Jones for onward transmission to the BH command

19 in Kiseljak. Namely that Srebrenica was subject to continuous shelling

20 and bombing at a low rate until arrival. Do you know what that means?

21 A. Yes. Until the arrival of General Morillon.

22 Q. And you say not a shell has fallen in the town since General

23 Morillon's arrival.

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Thank you. That's a reflection of reality as far as you're --

Page 5887

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Turn the page over. There are a number of topics that

3 we may as well deal with here. Page 3464. It's item number 3 that I am

4 interested in. You say, "There are 3 groupings in the ..." -- well, I

5 can't understand?

6 A. "In the area".

7 Q. -- "in the area: Local population, refugees and soldiers. Little

8 coordination between the three groups."

9 What precisely did you mean by that?

10 A. What I meant was that the local population appeared to be doing

11 very little for the refugees and that the soldiers were not doing anything

12 for the local population and the soldiers were doing their own activities.

13 Q. Thank you. And then there is an entry -- in fact, could you read

14 it out please starting with the word "there is"?

15 A. "There is, in addition, a radical clan who are manipulating these

16 groups and issue propaganda and control the 'amateur radio'".

17 Q. Thank you. I think if you continue reading, you have to -- in

18 effect, if you look over to page 365 in order to understand it, I think it

19 is the sentence is "It is they?

20 A. "It is they who --"

21 Q. Yes?

22 A. "-- who encourage the refugees to block General Morillon."

23 Q. Thanks. So who is the radical clan that you had in mind there?

24 Do you know?

25 A. We did not know for sure, but the War Presidency certainly had

Page 5888

1 something to do with it and soldiers certainly had something else to do

2 with it.

3 Q. Now, there's a reference there to amateur radio. What amateur

4 radio is that?

5 A. By that stage in the conflict, there had been numerous reports in

6 international press quoting amateur radio reports from Srebrenica and

7 Gorazde. Having seen the level of sophistication of the radio equipment

8 that they did have, we were -- we did not believe the representation of

9 such radio operators as "amateur".

10 Q. Thank you. When you say "having seen the level the level of

11 sophistication of the radio equipment that they did have," are you

12 referring to what you've told us about the sets that you saw in the PTT

13 building?

14 A. Yes. And a second set that I happened to have seen in the

15 Presidency building in Sarajevo earlier, before we went into.

16 Q. Thank you. I'm talking about Srebrenica, though. Thank you.

17 Thank you. I've finished with that entry.

18 If we can now just jump back to the 14th. You had a meeting at

19 the yellow bridge. Just, again, tell us what the general result of that

20 meeting was, please.

21 A. The meeting had been requested with General Mladic, however

22 General Mladic did not turn up. It was General Milovanovic, his chief of

23 staff, who actually turned up instead.

24 Q. Was he able to assist you much in negotiating in any significant

25 way?

Page 5889

1 A. Not really. He took away messages and undertook to get back to

2 General Morillon through Kiseljak.

3 Q. Can you summarize, for the Trial Chamber, the most important

4 matters that you raised with General Milovanovic.

5 A. The first issue we wanted to discuss was cessation of hostilities

6 by the Serbs. The second issue was cease-fires. Third issue was the

7 deployment of UN military observers in order to monitor the cease-fire.

8 We also asked about -- we also discussed evacuation of injured --

9 of injured people and the establishment of helicopter corridors in order

10 to be able to evacuate injured.

11 Milovanovic said that no -- we also wanted the humanitarian

12 convoys which were blocked at Zvornik to be allowed free passage through

13 to Srebrenica. Milovanovic said that until General Morillon left

14 Srebrenica, no humanitarian convoys would be allowed through. Regarding

15 the deployment of UN military observers, I think he said he had no

16 authority about it and he would get back to us about it.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the ostensible concern of the Serbs

18 was concerning General Morillon? Why were they worried about his leaving

19 Srebrenica? Did they provide you with an explanation?

20 A. No. They just said that -- they insisted for General Morillon's

21 safety that he leave the -- leave the enclave.

22 Q. I take it that was not a concern of General Morillon? Or am I

23 incorrect?

24 A. No, it was not.

25 Q. Thank you. In any event, you made arrangements to meet again at

Page 5890

1 the yellow bridge the next day?

2 A. Yes, we did, but that was in order to receive the -- the

3 humanitarian aid convoy, it was not in order to meet with Milovanovic.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you eventually -- did an aid convoy eventually

5 come into Srebrenica?

6 A. Yes. A convoy eventually came in a number of days later.

7 Q. A number of days later, okay. Let's just keep with those dates.

8 Can you tell the Trial Chamber, in summary, what you did on the 16th of

9 March.

10 A. My recollection is that we went back to the yellow bridge in order

11 to try and meet the convoy, which never turned up. And we had further

12 meetings with members of the War Presidency and with our UNMOs, our UN

13 military observers, who had been into the Srebrenica enclave who had

14 reports about what military activities had been going on.

15 And I spent a lot of time preparing reports and reporting back to

16 Kiseljak over the UNHCR radio and over the tactical satellite radio, to

17 Frankfurt.

18 Q. Thanks. Can I ask you now to turn your attention to the following

19 day again, the 17th of March. We're moving along.

20 On that particular day, can you recall the basic outline of events

21 up until the evening? And I'll get to the evening in more detail later.

22 But firstly, the day's events: Did you go up to the yellow bridge again?

23 A. Yes. We went up to the yellow bridge every day.

24 Q. And do you recall who you met on that particular day?

25 A. Just the local Serb commander, the same colonel who we'd met on

Page 5891

1 the first day.

2 Q. And what was the reason for going up there on that particular

3 day? Was it again connected with the possible arrival of the aid convoy,

4 or the other reasons that you've mentioned; cease-fires, demilitarisation

5 and so on?

6 A. We wanted to primarily get the convoy through. There wasn't much

7 sense talking with the local colonel about cease-fires and

8 demilitarisation because he simply didn't have the authority to...

9 Q. Thank you. Did you return to Srebrenica?

10 A. Yes, we did.

11 Q. I want you to turn your attention to the evening. Did you speak

12 to anyone not in your party that night?

13 A. We spoke with the War Presidency earlier in the evening. And

14 later in the evening, Colonel Oric turned up in the PTT building in

15 Srebrenica and had a long conversation with General Morillon.

16 Q. Did Colonel Oric -- let me rephrase that. Did you expect Colonel

17 Oric to turn up? Was it by appointment, in other words?

18 A. No, it wasn't. We had been asking the war committee to pass on

19 messages to Colonel Oric saying we wanted to meet with him, every day.

20 And suddenly he turned up.

21 Q. What had been the reaction of the War Presidency when you passed

22 those messages to them?

23 A. We asked them, please, we need to speak with Colonel Oric, and

24 they said that they had no control over him and they promised to pass on

25 General Morillon's requests to him, but could not promise anything about

Page 5892

1 when he would turn up, or not.

2 Q. Can you recall about what time he turned up?

3 A. I think it was about -- about 7.00 in the evening. It was well

4 after dark.

5 Q. How was he dressed?

6 A. He was dressed in similar way he had been dressed when we'd met

7 him in Konjevic Polje; in dark green thick, heavy - what I call winter

8 uniform.

9 Q. Did he turn up alone or in company with others?

10 A. I don't know who he may or may not have turned up with because I

11 only saw him in the PTT building itself. And there were many Bosniak

12 soldiers who -- I mean, I didn't know where they came from, or who they

13 were or who they were with, because he was suddenly there and went into

14 this room that I described earlier that had been allocated to General

15 Morillon on the first floor.

16 Q. The room that the women's committee had cleaned up for you.

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Thank you. I would like to now ask you about some entries

19 relating to the 17th and we may touch upon this topic, but firstly I would

20 like to be clear as to where your entries for the 17th actually start.

21 Can I ask you to look at 3497 -- I'm sorry. 3495. Is that where

22 your entries for the 17th of March start?

23 A. Excuse me. I must look in my --

24 Q. Sorry. Sure, if you wouldn't mind doing that.

25 A. No. My entries for the 17th of March start earlier. They start

Page 5893

1 on the page with your reference number 3491.

2 Q. Oh, okay. Thank you. And do the entries for the 17th continue

3 all the way to 3502?

4 A. That is correct, though there will be entries after that which

5 refer back to --

6 Q. Back to, yes. I've got that. Thanks. In fact, if you turn the

7 page back to 3501, I think we can actually see a fairly clear date there.

8 1800, 17th of March. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, that is correct. It is up here. I'm pointing it out now.

10 [Indicating]

11 Q. Thank you. If we can start with the text that I'm interested in.

12 Go to 3502. Our photocopy is not terribly clear in the middle of the

13 page. Could you just read out the heading of that entry at 3502.

14 A. It says, "Meeting in Srebrenica PTT building, Morillon, Naser

15 Oric, 19.15."

16 Q. Is that a reference to the meeting that you've just told us about?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Who was at this meeting? Were you present?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. Mihailov?

21 A. Mihailov, and Colonel Oric.

22 Q. Thank you. And there entries appear. Can you just read out the

23 first entry. I think it is, "Oric reported..."

24 A. "Oric reported strong attacks from north-west and south-east.

25 Tregovac has fallen."

Page 5894

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. Do you want me to continue?

3 Q. No. I just want to ask you. What precisely did he report to you

4 about that?

5 A. What Colonel Oric was describing to General Morillon was the

6 military situation in the enclave.

7 Q. I want to be sure that we're clear about this. He was describing

8 events in the north-west of the enclave?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. And events in the south-east of the enclave?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Can you recall what he actually said about the military events in

13 those two reaches of the enclave?

14 A. I can't recall specifically what he said, but what I can recall is

15 the overall context, which was that the military situation was very dire

16 and was very bad.

17 Q. You are a military man; was it a clear, coherent military

18 description of events?

19 A. Not particularly. It was as clear as was possible with somebody

20 with the difficulties he had.

21 Q. What do you mean?

22 A. He had no ability to move. He did not have reliable

23 communications. It was the best that could be expected from somebody in

24 his situation.

25 Q. Yes. That's what -- thank you. Thank you. He was obviously

Page 5895

1 labouring under many handicaps that many other military commanders might

2 not have had. But was that your impression?

3 A. Yes. It was.

4 Q. Thank you. Let's go on to the next entry. Can you please read

5 out the text of that so that it's clear because it's not --

6 A. "Many tanks gathering on western side of north-west corner.

7 Expect big push tomorrow. Expect attack tomorrow along the route we came

8 in along."

9 This was referring to the route over the mountains which General

10 Morillon and I had used to enter into the Srebrenica enclave.

11 Q. Thank you. Pause there. Was it Mr. Oric, Colonel Oric who gave

12 you that information?

13 A. Yes, he did.

14 Q. Thank you. Continue reading out the next paragraph, please.

15 A. "Have discussed proposal of demilitarising area. Want to place

16 whole zone immediately under UNPROFOR control (Cerska - Srebrenica). Need

17 to deploy observers along Drina and check crossings. Dr. Ganic accepts".

18 Q. Thank you. Who did you discuss the -- proposition, I think you

19 said.

20 A. Proposal.

21 Q. Proposal for the demilitarisation with?

22 A. We had -- rather, General Morillon had initially discussed this

23 with Dr. Ganic, using the war committee's radio. He had secondly

24 discussed it with the Srebrenica War Presidency. And he was now

25 discussing it with Colonel Oric.

Page 5896

1 Q. What had been the attitude of Dr. Ganic and what had been the

2 attitude of the War Presidency?

3 A. Dr. Ganic had broadly accepted the proposal and wanted it to

4 happen. The War Presidency had broadly accepted the proposal, with some

5 caveats that they had said they did not want any Serbs to enter the town

6 and only police men would be allowed in and they wanted the UN to

7 guarantee this. Colonel Oric refused and said that he would never

8 surrender or never give up his arms, he would now allow demilitarisation

9 and that he would fight inside Srebrenica -- in amongst the houses to the

10 end, if necessary.

11 Q. What were the consequences for you, for you and your party, for

12 General Morillon, given the situation that had developed with the approval

13 of Ganic, the qualified approval of the War Presidency and now this

14 refusal?

15 A. General Morillon was very concerned, because this is a bigger

16 issue. One of the reasons that the Serbs had given for continuing their

17 attacks and not ceasing hostilities was the ongoing attacks outside of the

18 Srebrenica enclave by Bosniak forces.

19 What General Morillon was seeking to -- was trying to achieve was

20 agreement to the cessation of hostilities out of the enclave by the

21 Bosniaks in order to remove the excuse from the Serbs from continuing

22 their operations. So what General Morillon was trying to achieve was to

23 get Colonel Oric to agree not to continue with attacks out of the enclave.

24 That was the first point.

25 The second point is that, General Morillon was very anxious that

Page 5897

1 -- or very concerned that Colonel Oric would continue fighting even if it

2 was in amongst the town because that would cause many casualties. And I

3 think he used the words "one shell landing anywhere will injure tons of

4 people".

5 Q. Was the topic of the cessation or possible cessation of attacks

6 from out of the enclave discussed during this encounter?

7 A. Yes. In some detail. General Morillon asked Colonel Oric to stop

8 his attacks and Colonel Oric said that he could not stop his attacks

9 because he relied upon attacks that he made in order to capture weapons,

10 ammunition, food and supplies and he said to General Morillon, "Where do

11 you think my bullets come from? Every bullet that we use to defend

12 ourselves is taken from the Serbs".

13 Q. Did General Morillon counter his arguments in any way or offer any

14 reasons as to allay his fears or concerns?

15 A. Yes. He said to Colonel Oric that the Serbs had complained about

16 massacres of civilians and were using these accusations as their excuse

17 for continuing their attacks against the enclave.

18 Q. And can you recall a response, if any, of Colonel Oric to this

19 reasoning?

20 A. Colonel Oric's response was that, yes, sadly, sometimes his men

21 did go beyond what was necessary and sometimes they killed ten people,

22 when in fact it would only be necessary to kill five to secure the

23 supplies that they needed.

24 Q. Is that where matters rested or was there more discussion about

25 this very topic?

Page 5898

1 A. Yes. The topic moved on to prisoners, because the Serbs had

2 claimed that the Bosniaks were holding Serb prisoners in Srebrenica. And

3 General Morillon said, "Surely it's pointless holding prisoners, as you'd

4 only have to feed them". And Colonel Oric's response was "Yes. Taking

5 prisoners is not really practical and we don't do it".

6 He went on to -- but he never responded -- General Morillon asked

7 him a couple of times, "Are you holding any prisoners?" And he didn't

8 respond to the question.

9 Q. Who was the Serb -- you said the Serbs had made the claim that the

10 Bosniaks were holding Serb prisoners in Srebrenica. Do you know who,

11 which particular Serb made that allegation or claim?

12 A. The Serb Colonel at the front line at the yellow bridge at

13 Bratunac. The Serb Colonel in command in Bratunac itself.

14 Q. What was the demeanour of Colonel Oric during this meeting that

15 you've just been describing?

16 A. He was very depressed. He was very anxious. He was totally

17 different to when we had seen him in cost of Konjevic Polje. In Konjevic

18 Polje he had been a confident, in difficult circumstances, man. Calm.

19 Measured. Balanced. Whereas the Oric who we saw that evening was very

20 depressed, very low, and almost confiding in General Morillon about his

21 difficulties.

22 Q. In the time that had elapsed between I think the 5th -- the 6th of

23 March when you spoke to him and this encounter on the 17th about eleven

24 days or so, had the Serbs continued when pressed on with their attacks

25 around the enclave?

Page 5899

1 A. My understanding is continually, yes, and that by that stage, the

2 road from Zvornik to Pale which we looked at on the map yesterday had been

3 freed and was clear and the Bosniaks had been pushed all the way back from

4 there.

5 We also understood that they had suffered -- they had lost many

6 villages down in the south-east of the enclave as well.

7 Q. All right. Just go back to the entries, please. The next entry,

8 please, on 3503. Could you just read that out. I think it's -- start at

9 the top, please.

10 A. At the very top it says: "Later need to consider all of eastern

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina." That's referring to the previous one, where we spoke

12 about demilitarisation. Then it leads on, "M" for General Morillon,

13 "peace still possible provided Serbs not crazy enough to attack

14 Srebrenica. Serbs still claiming they attack because Halilovic attacking

15 Tuzla, Ilijas. As long as no order countermanding these attacks, they

16 will continue." Then "O" for Oric, "order given two days ago to cease

17 offensive. Most important to cease offensive and ..."

18 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to, please go back to entry "M"

19 which you say refers to General Morillon. Can you explain more carefully

20 what General Morillon was driving at when he made those comments.

21 A. Yes. General Morillon was being very careful not to make

22 accusations to Colonel Oric and was using the accusations and behaviors of

23 the Serbs as the reason for please stopping your activities, your

24 offensive activities.

25 Q. Thank you. What did you understand reference to be to the attacks

Page 5900

1 of Halilovic to be?

2 A. Yes. General Halilovic had at the beginning of March on Sarajevo

3 radio, made a pronouncement in which he had ordered all Bosniak soldiers

4 to attack towards Srebrenica and Gorazde, with all vigor. This was

5 broadcast over public radio and obviously was heard by the Serbs.

6 And the Serbs used this as a reason for continuing their

7 offensives and said they would not stop their offensives until Halilovic

8 withdrew that order, because as far as they were concerned, as long as

9 that order was not publicly withdrawn over the radio, then they were

10 breaking any attempt to make a cease-fire.

11 Q. Can you recall if Colonel Oric was -- appeared to be aware of this

12 order and this offensive that you've just spoken of?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. Thank you. Then turn to the entry -- under "O" for Oric. "Order

15 given two days ago to cease offensive. Most important to cease

16 offensive."

17 What do you recall Colonel Oric saying about that, in other words,

18 can you flesh out that entry, please and tell us -- provide us more

19 details.

20 A. My recollection is that he told General Morillon that he had

21 received the order two days ago, in other words, from Sarajevo, to cease

22 his offensive actions. But it was very important for the Serbs to cease

23 their offensive as well.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Would that be an appropriate moment for a break?

Page 5901

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Di Fazio. Stop here. Have a break.

2 25 minutes, please.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Di Fazio. I need your

6 indulgence for a minute or so. We have succeeded in moving tomorrow's and

7 Thursday's sittings from the afternoon to the morning, if, that is, of

8 course, agreeable to Defence and Prosecution. Prosecution, I suppose it

9 doesn't make any difference to you because you will be here in any case.

10 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour, we will immediately update the

11 issues as well.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Defence?

13 MR. JONES: Yes. Obviously it depends to a certain extent on the

14 schedule. I assume I would probably be starting cross-examining tomorrow.

15 I can probably fill the day with my cross-examination tomorrow, if pushed.

16 Obviously it slightly reduces the time for preparing, but I think I will

17 be in a position to do that.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: While we are at that, are you finishing today with

19 your in-chief?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I hope to finish today. If

21 I don't finish today, I will be almost to the very end of my

22 examination-in-chief. There's a good chance I'll finish today. But I --

23 I can reassure the chamber that if I don't it's not going to take up much

24 of tomorrow at all.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mr. Jones, how much time do you require for

Page 5902

1 your cross-examination?

2 MR. JONES: It will be about two days.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Two days?

4 MR. JONES: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So we better not take risks. Basically we'll have

6 -- yes. And then for Friday, do you have any other witness prepared for

7 Friday in case we have time to start with a new witness or not,

8 Mr. Wubben?

9 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. We have scheduled on the 17th when

10 it is on the 18th. That's fine with us to start.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. All right. Okay. So you should be okay.

12 There shouldn't be any problems. You will have as much time as you

13 require, obviously.

14 So tomorrow, Wednesday 16th March, we will be sitting in this

15 courtroom at 9.00, starting at 9.00. And Thursday, we will sit in

16 courtroom 3, also at 9.00. Then I will have an initial appearance which

17 now I need to move from 5:30 to 2.30 on Thursday, but the good news is

18 that the initial appearance will not eat up from our time in Oric.

19 All right. I thank you for your cooperation. Mr. Di Fazio, you

20 may proceed. Thank you.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks, Your Honours.

22 Q. All right. Before the break we were talking about this encounter

23 that you had with Colonel Oric on the 17th and the notes that you made in

24 your diary.

25 Could you please look in your diary to the page that bears ERN

Page 5903

1 number 3504. In fact it is the next page, basically, from the point that

2 we were looking at. Now, firstly, the date. Again on our photocopy it is

3 not entirely clear. It appears to be the 18th of March. Can you confirm

4 that?

5 A. Yes, it reads 0800, 18 March. 1993.

6 Q. Do the entries from the 18th of March start from this point?

7 A. Yes, they do.

8 Q. Turn over the page, please, to 3505. And the entries there are,

9 with all due respect, a lot clearer. "Sitrep in Dutch." What does that

10 mean?

11 A. That meant that I was speaking over the UNHCR HF radio with a

12 Dutch officer in Kiseljak and that I made my report in Dutch, in order to

13 make it more difficult for the Serbs to understand what it was we were

14 saying.

15 Q. Thank you. And it may well be known, I don't know, but sitrep is,

16 I think, a situation report?

17 A. That is correct. My apologies.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you read the first entry.

19 A. The first entry is "Naser Oric returned to Srebrenica for first

20 time, a long discussion with commander." By "commander" I mean General

21 Morillon.

22 Q. Thank you. Is that a reference to a discussion you had the

23 previous evening?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Can you read the next entry.

Page 5904

1 A. "2. Military situation now deteriorating rapidly, losing five

2 villages a day. At current rate we'll have nothing left in two weeks."

3 Q. Thank you. Who provided you with that military assessment? Was

4 that your own or did you get it from someone else?

5 A. That came from Colonel Oric.

6 Q. Thank you. The next entry. Read that out, please.

7 A. "Heavy offensive to north-west and south-east."

8 Q. Thank you. Again, the source of information for that entry?

9 A. Was Colonel Oric.

10 Q. Next entry, read that out, please.

11 A. At number 4, "locals reported four aircraft attacking villages

12 around Osmace again yesterday. Cannot confirm this." By "locals" what I

13 meant was local military in Srebrenica, as opposed to Colonel Oric.

14 Q. Thank you. The next entry, number five.

15 A. Five. "Oric talked about fighting to the last man in the town, if

16 necessary."

17 Q. Thank you. And I think you've already given evidence that that

18 came up in the previous evening?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Thank you. Number 6.

21 A. "This would be a catastrophe as town is already so crowded that

22 any shell would injure tens of people."

23 Q. Whose assessment was that?

24 A. It was General Morillon's assessment.

25 Q. Thank you. Turn over the page to 3506. I certainly don't want to

Page 5905

1 take you through that chapter and verse, but what basically does it relate

2 to?

3 A. It relates to other conversations and communications that we had

4 had, that we were trying to get the convoy with humanitarian aid which was

5 stuck in Zvornik into Srebrenica.

6 Q. Thank you. Was that also to be a part of the content of a radio

7 message?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Please turn over the page to 3507. I think at the top

10 there is a handwritten -- it's all handwritten. But at the top there is a

11 notation dealing with some events that had allowed you to have more

12 rations and food to keep your party going for a longer time in Srebrenica.

13 Correct?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. The main part that I am interested in commences after that.

16 "Situation report for General Jones to pass on to BH command." Who is

17 General Jones?

18 A. General Jones was a brigadier general in the United States marine

19 corps who was an advisor to the US commander of NATO forces based in

20 Frankfurt. And General Jones was the person who had supplied major -- a

21 US intelligence major and a tactical satellite radio to come with General

22 Morillon when he went into Srebrenica in order to liaise regarding the air

23 drops of humanitarian aid which were happening most nights in the

24 Srebrenica enclave.

25 This radio was in a rucksack and was secure; in other words, it

Page 5906

1 was encrypted. In other words, the Serbs could not understand what it was

2 we were saying. The only disadvantage was that the stations at the other

3 end of that net were in Frankfurt. So they then had to pass anything from

4 Frankfurt to Kiseljak, but it was our only means of secure communication.

5 Q. Thank you. And the next entry military situation, can you just

6 read that out, please.

7 A. "One military situation, A, Naser Oric commander of Srebrenica

8 enclave arrived in Srebrenica last night for first meeting with General

9 Morillon."

10 Q. Thank you. I don't think I need to take you through all of this.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. With regard to this particular entry:

12 I see that this entry seems to me as if it has been crossed out or

13 cancelled. What are those three oblique lines across it?

14 THE WITNESS: I cannot say, sir.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Are they of your own making? Or not?

16 THE WITNESS: What I -- if you look through my notes, sir, you

17 will find many crossings out.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I did, actually, yes.

19 THE WITNESS: What I did was, as I completed a section, I then

20 crossed it out so that it was clear in my mind that I finished that

21 particular report.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's a fair enough explanation. At

23 least we have an explanation. Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

25 Q. I don't want to take you through this in minute detail. If you

Page 5907

1 look at the remaining entries, you can see that the -- there is a

2 commentary on the situation, the deteriorating military situation, the

3 commentary on the loss of villages and the rate of loss of villages.

4 Commentary on the attacks from the north-west and south-east.

5 Is that a reference to the content of discussions that you had the

6 previous evening with Colonel Oric?

7 A. Yes, it was. It was principally based on what Colonel Oric told

8 us. It was also based on information from the -- our own UN military

9 observers who had been out in the area and made observations.

10 Q. Thank you. And again there is, the last main entry, "local

11 commanders repeated that the villages in the Osmace area were bombed by

12 aircraft." And I think you've already given a description of where you

13 got that evidence from.

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Thank you. The entry keeps going. If you look at it, number 1,

16 at 3507, is the military situation. Do you see that? We've just been

17 through it. Do you see military situation, number 1?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Yes. At the bottom of the page, number 2, refugee situation.

20 Then you provide entries at 3508, concerning refugee issues. Do you see

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Were those matters relating to refugees also part of

24 the situation report to General Jones?

25 A. Yes, they were.

Page 5908

1 Q. Thank you. Go to number 3, and you see that there is, again, a

2 reference to "Meeting with Naser Oric last night." In fact, could you

3 please read out the remainder of that entry to the bottom of page 3508 so

4 we can always be sure of the actual words.

5 A. "Meeting with Naser Oric last night. Oric is Bosnian commander

6 Srebrenica pocket. General Morillon last met him at Konjevic Polje on 6th

7 March, 1993.

8 "a. Bosnian military authorities are desperate that morale is

9 rock bottom.

10 "b. Oric stated he and his soldiers would fight to bitter end in

11 Srebrenica if necessary. General Morillon trying to persuade him this

12 would be folly. Srebrenica is so crowded that every shell hitting the

13 town would injure dozens.

14 "c. General Morillon discussed conditions for making Srebrenica

15 an open town under UN protection."

16 Q. Thank you. Those matters are all fairly self-explanatory, but

17 entry C interests me: "General Morillon discussed conditions for making

18 Srebrenica an open town under UN protection." With whom did General

19 Morillon discuss that topic?

20 A. He discussed it with Colonel Oric and with the Srebrenica war

21 committee.

22 Q. Thank you. And was this also part of the text -- rather, the

23 content of the radio message to General Jones?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thanks. Turn the page over to 3509. Item number 4. I won't ask

Page 5909

1 you to read that out as the writing is relatively clear there. It's

2 obviously a reference to "a meeting with the president of the war

3 committee 9.30 this morning."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you have in fact a meeting with the president of the war

6 committee at 9.30 on the 18th?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Right. And the notations there are that they speak for

9 themselves, the president said that he'd be -- the Bosnians are willing to

10 hand over their weapons on certain conditions; the cessation of the Serb

11 offensive, UNPROFOR guarantee of no military, no Serb military and police,

12 and the fact of approval by Dr. Ganic. And the request to Security

13 Council for a declaration of protected status. Were those topics, in

14 fact, discussed with the War Presidency, with the president of the War

15 Presidency?

16 A. Yes, they were?

17 Q. Thanks. Item number five, commander's assessment. Is that

18 General Morillon's assessment?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thanks. I would ask you to read that out to the end of the

21 message which you can see over the following page at 3510. So if you can

22 read the commander's assessment entirely.

23 A. "5. Commander's assessment. General Morillon considers that

24 opening of an air corridor for helicopters remains one of the major

25 conditions to guarantee the safety of the population and to guarantee the

Page 5910

1 safety of the evacuation of the wounded men. General Morillon --" it then

2 turns over the page -- "requests BH command, UNPROFOR's, Zagreb and EUCOM

3 --" EUCOM is the Frankfurt US command -- "to exercise all their influence

4 to achieve this objective." End of message.

5 Q. Thank you. Yes.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment.

7 Q. The -- looking at the entry at 3509, it's clear that the president

8 of the committee, the War Presidency in Srebrenica, according to this

9 message anyway, is agreeable to a demilitarisation of sorts, the handing

10 over of weapons, which I take to mean demilitarisation. Correct?

11 A. Yes. That is correct.

12 Q. How were -- let me -- let me withdraw that question. Did you give

13 any thought or consideration as to how you could possibly achieve this if

14 Colonel Oric had indicated his intention that there would be fighting

15 until the end?

16 A. Yes. General Morillon was very concerned about that and when he

17 had spoken with Colonel Oric the previous evening, Colonel Oric had said

18 that he didn't -- he didn't care what the war committee said, he was going

19 to fight to the end and he was never going to hand any of his weapons

20 over, and he was very dismissive of the war committee and he did not think

21 very much of them.

22 General Morillon tried to -- and continually tried to persuade

23 Colonel Oric to stop his attacks in order to remove the excuse from the

24 Serbs for continuing their offensives.

25 Q. Thanks. Can I ask you, if you can, to amplify part of your

Page 5911

1 answer. You say that General Morillon continually tried to persuade him

2 to stop his attacks.

3 When did that continually happen, because you've only described an

4 encounter in the early part of March around the 5th or 6th, on both days

5 with Colonel Oric, and again the previous evening that you're talking

6 about, the 17th of March. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what you

7 mean by "continually trying to persuade him."

8 A. "Continually" means on the previous evening throughout that

9 meeting. It means also at a brief meeting that we had later, around the

10 21st of March, and again at a meeting that General Morillon had with

11 Colonel Oric on about the 23rd of March. On each of those occasions it

12 was a constant refrain of General Morillon's.

13 Q. And was there any alteration in the attitude of Colonel Oric at

14 all on any of those occasions?

15 A. The main conversation was the one on the previous evening when he

16 said that he had to continue attacking in order to acquire the means with

17 which to defend the enclave.

18 Q. Thank you. All right. Can I ask you to describe the events of

19 the 18th of March 1993. Obviously this radio message was sent at some

20 point. How did the rest of the day pan out?

21 A. I think the rest of the day was, again, a journey down to the

22 yellow bridge to try and meet with the humanitarian aid convoy and other

23 communications and coordinations with Kiseljak in order to progress the

24 work that Morillon was doing.

25 Q. Thank you. Did you have meetings with the War Presidency? Or

Page 5912

1 members of the War Presidency?

2 A. There was this meeting with the president of the war committee

3 that we've just -- we've just been through.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you see Colonel Oric that day?

5 A. No. Colonel Oric had left the previous evening in the same way

6 that he had come. He just was suddenly there and he was suddenly gone.

7 Q. Thank you. And did you have meetings with the Serbs at the line

8 of confrontation on that day?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. On the 19th and the 20th of March, did you see Colonel Oric?

11 A. No, we didn't.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you go to the line of confrontation?

13 A. Yes, we did.

14 Q. On both days?

15 A. On both days.

16 Q. At the yellow bridge?

17 A. At the yellow bridge.

18 Q. And whom did you meet on those days?

19 A. On the 19th we met with the same Serb colonel. On the 20th, we

20 again met with the same Serb colonel, however, on the way down to the

21 yellow bridge -- this was the first day that we had taken not only the

22 armoured personnel carrier but also a Jeep with us. And I was in the

23 armoured personnel carrier and was playing with the radio in the armoured

24 personnel carrier and suddenly managed to pick up the UN aid convoy which

25 was stuck in Zvornik and actually had live communications with them and

Page 5913

1 established where they were.

2 I told General Morillon this, and when we got to the Serb front

3 line, General Morillon told me, "You stay here with the armoured personnel

4 carrier and keep the front line open, because the excuse that was usually

5 used to prevent humanitarian aid convoys passing was that there's fighting

6 going on, so Pyers, you stay here. I will take the Jeep and go to Zvornik

7 and try and get the convoy unblocked."

8 Q. Thanks. Just -- I think there is a little mistake in the

9 transcript. You're talking now about the 19th of March, aren't you?

10 A. No. I'm talking about the 20th of March.

11 Q. Are you? Thank you for clarifying that. The 20th. Thank you.

12 Was there any success with the convoy?

13 A. Yes. About six hours later. We had gone down to the front line

14 at about 10.00, 10.30. About six hours later, at 4.00 in the afternoon,

15 General Morillon turned up at the head of the convoy and we then took the

16 convoy, we then led the convoy over the front line and the confrontation

17 line and into Srebrenica.

18 Q. How many trucks?

19 A. It was ten trucks, ten-ton trucks from the Dutch Belgian transport

20 battalion.

21 Q. And what were they carrying?

22 A. They were carrying foodstuffs in almost all of the trucks. There

23 were one or two trucks which had sugar and medicine.

24 Q. Thank you. Where did you take the trucks?

25 A. We initially stopped the trucks outside the PTT building in order

Page 5914

1 to find out from the war committee where they wanted the trucks unloaded.

2 Members of the war committee then guided the convoy further into

3 Srebrenica, into the centre of Srebrenica, to a place where they wanted

4 the foodstuffs to be unloaded out of the trucks into the cellar of a

5 building.

6 Q. And that process went ahead reasonably smoothly in all the

7 circumstances, or not?

8 A. Yes. It went -- it took most of the night.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. When you say that on this occasion you

10 met with members of the war committee, did you meet with the entire number

11 of members and would you recollect who you met with?

12 THE WITNESS: The one person I always remember was Hajrudin Avdic,

13 the president, and unless he was there we didn't have any meaningful

14 conversations. And it was him who told us to follow the guide and we then

15 followed the guide.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And were the medicines kept with the sugar and taken

17 to the same storage place?

18 THE WITNESS: No. The medicines were unloaded straight into the

19 hospital, which was opposite the PTT building.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: On whose instructions?

21 THE WITNESS: The instructions of somebody from the war committee.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you recall whether you met Dr. Mukanovic on this

23 particular occasion?

24 THE WITNESS: He was around. I cannot confirm whether or not he

25 is the one who said where to unload or not. He was certainly around,

Page 5915

1 though the instructions were given to the officers of the convoy and I

2 wasn't actually present when the instructions were given.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Yes.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

5 Q. Had you given any thought to where you were going to deposit all

6 of the materials that you brought in, apart from the medicines? The food,

7 I mean.

8 A. Yes, we were concerned, because we knew, as a rule, that by our

9 own estimation, only about 20 percent of the humanitarian aid delivered in

10 Bosnia ever reached the refugees who needed it, because invariably we were

11 required, as part of the agreement by which the UN was in Bosnia, to

12 deliver humanitarian aid to the local authorities. And we were concerned

13 that if we gave the aid to the local authorities, that they would use most

14 of it for their own purposes and would not give it to the refugees.

15 So we were skeptical, but we had no choice but to hand over the

16 supplies to the local authorities, which, in this case, was the Srebrenica

17 war committee.

18 Q. Thank you. That's what I'm interested in. There was no question

19 about it, you were obliged to ascertain who the local authorities were and

20 deliver the aid to those persons?

21 A. That is absolutely correct, and it was something that caused us a

22 lot of frustration.

23 Q. And the only people you spoke to, or as far as you're aware your

24 party spoke to, were the members of the Srebrenica War Presidency

25 concerning the location of the food?

Page 5916

1 A. Yes. And whilst the food was being unloaded, the War Presidency

2 -- Hajrudin Avdic and a number of their members, and I and Mihailov and

3 Mukanovic all walked up from the PTT building to where the food was being

4 unloaded and stood there for some time, watching the food being unloaded.

5 Q. You specifically recall Dr. Mukanovic being present on that

6 occasion?

7 A. Yes, he was.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could I just take the witness back to page

9 3508 and it's paragraph C. This is part of the report sent or meant to be

10 sent to General Jones to pass on to the command in Frankfurt, as I

11 understood you before.

12 In paragraph C there is, "Have seen some evidence of food

13 distribution; some --" I can't read that word.

14 THE WITNESS: "Some more of the antibiotics."

15 JUDGE AGIUS: "... dropped two days ago has been handed in to the

16 hospital." I ask you to amplify a little bit on this and also tell me

17 whether this could have had an effect on your and General Morillon's, on

18 the 20th, you had this convoy finally succeed to pass through.

19 THE WITNESS: Yes. This paragraph C is referring to food which

20 was dropped by aircraft every night. And it was a -- it was a vicious, it

21 was a horrible situation because the air drops were carried out at night

22 and the air drops were in pallets of about between 400 and 700 kilograms,

23 which were not dropped with parachutes but which were dropped with drogue

24 parachutes which simply slow down and keep the pallet the right way up.

25 The pallet had about a metre of cardboard in that to take the impact when

Page 5917

1 it landed, but these things were dropped at night and the noise of these

2 things coming down with the drogue parachute was like an express train.

3 You couldn't see where they would land and if they landed on top of you,

4 you were dead.

5 Every night we were told that between ten and fifteen people were

6 killed because people would go out at night to open areas where the air

7 drops were landing and people -- it was the law of the jungle. It was the

8 law of the fittest, because the first person to reach a pallet, that would

9 be then his pallet and he would hold on to that, and there were reports of

10 knife fights and the doctors in the hospital reported that they were

11 having to treat people for knife injuries because the refugees were

12 fighting for the aid.

13 We requested the air drops to be moved further away from

14 Srebrenica so that the food would be dropped and it could be collected and

15 could then be distributed in a more organised manner, rather than this

16 bitter fight for survival, which was what had been happening in the nights

17 up until then.

18 We had also in a previous communication requested antibiotics

19 because it was the top priority of the doctors in the hospital. And we

20 had been told in advance over the TACSAT radio that one aircraft would

21 have antibiotics and it would drop slightly off to the side, and, however,

22 refugees got to the -- got to the package first and most of the

23 antibiotics just disappeared. But we told the Srebrenica war committee

24 and said, Look antibiotics were dropped last night, can you please tell

25 your people they can't use them, please hand in any antibiotics that

Page 5918

1 they've picked up or found into the hospital.

2 MR. JONES: Sorry to interrupt. Our client is suddenly feeling

3 rather unwell. I wonder if it would be possible to have a pause.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Certainly, Mr. Jones. Certainly, Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: I can take instructions as to how long perhaps --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What we will do is we will have a break now for as

7 long as necessary. And you will communicate with the registrar what the

8 position -- what the situation is and what are the requirements of your

9 client and we will take the necessary decisions accordingly.

10 MR. JONES: All right, thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: If it needs to be to stop sitting completely, we

12 will do that.

13 MR. JONES: Indications are it should be -- thank you.

14 Indications are it shouldn't be too long. I think it's a question of

15 faintness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Whatever time he requires. We will have a short

17 break. Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 4.55 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 5.05 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our client is feeling

22 better now and I think we are now prepared to continue.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, but I do want to make it

24 clear, on behalf of the Bench, that our interpretation or our

25 understanding of the right of the accused to be present throughout the

Page 5919

1 whole, the entire proceedings necessarily entails also his being able to

2 follow what is taking place, what is happening.

3 So if, at any time, in spite of his presence here, he is not in a

4 condition to follow, he is feeling either -- anyway, he knows best. If

5 there are problems, do bring that to our attention straight away and we

6 will decide what to do. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You're welcome. Mr. Di Fazio. Yes, one moment

9 because we stopped at a time when I had something on my mind, and I need

10 to go back to the page.

11 Yes. Colonel, you were explaining to the Chamber, to the Trial

12 Chamber, what lay behind your entry, paragraph C, that I drew your

13 attention to earlier on. And particularly you had arrived at the point

14 where, with regard to antibiotics that were included in the pallets that

15 were being dropped from the air.

16 You were being told -- you were telling the war committee,

17 informing the war committee members about them and that to have them

18 recovered, if possible, and have them handed over to the hospital.

19 En passant, you did mention that you had been told on several

20 occasions by the doctors of the great need that there was for these

21 antibiotics in the hospital. When you say you were being told by the

22 doctors, were you including Dr. Mukanovic amongst them?

23 THE WITNESS: No, I was not. I was referring to the doctor in the

24 hospital and the Medecins Sans Frontieres doctors.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever discuss these air drops from

Page 5920

1 antibiotics with Dr. Mukanovic?

2 THE WITNESS: No. There was no reason to discuss it with him. We

3 did say to the -- to Hajrudin Avdic that we had requested antibiotics and

4 medicines to be dropped.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Did Dr. Mukanovic ever make any specific request to

6 you or General Morillon or anyone else in your -- to your troop about the

7 need for antibiotics or any other kind of medicines?

8 THE WITNESS: No. It was one of the things that puzzled us, as to

9 what he was doing in the Presidency, what was he doing there and why. We

10 didn't understand it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.

13 Q. You just told His Honour that Dr. Mukanovic never said anything to

14 you about the need for antibiotics, and as I read it, the need for any

15 other kind of medicines.

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Yes. Did he discuss any, any health issue of any description

18 whatsoever with you?

19 A. Not that I can remember, sir.

20 Q. Thank you. Before we got onto this topic of air drops and medical

21 supplies, you were telling us about the convoy that had come in on the

22 20th and the unloading of it which continued into the night. Were you

23 present throughout the night or not?

24 A. No. I was only present for 20 minutes, half an hour.

25 Q. Thank you. You spent the night in Srebrenica?

Page 5921

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. With General Morillon?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Thank you. I want you now to turn your attention to the following

5 day, the 21st of March. That day, in the morning, what did you do?

6 A. We had made arrangements to go to Bratunac to meet with General

7 Gvero and I was making preparations to depart from the PTT building. By

8 "preparations," what I mean is that it took about half an hour to start

9 the armoured personnel carrier in the cold and we needed to clear snow off

10 the vehicles.

11 And as I was doing this, together with the crew of the vehicle, I

12 suddenly heard a loud car engine, automobile engine, and I looked up and

13 saw a black Mercedes driving at high speed through the town from the

14 direction of the centre of the town towards the PTT building. It was a

15 Mercedes with a dark smoke-coloured windows and low profile tyres, the

16 sort of thing that looked totally out of place in Srebrenica. And I

17 couldn't believe my eyes. I was astonished. This car came screeching to

18 a halt in a hand brake turn and out of the car climbed Colonel Oric and a

19 couple of bodyguards.

20 Q. Can I just ask you to pause there. Did you happen to notice what

21 sort of plates it was carrying?

22 A. I believe it had German number plates.

23 Q. As the car approached, were there people in the street?

24 A. Yes, there were quite a few people in the street and the car was

25 driven recklessly and people were diving out of the way of the car as it

Page 5922

1 came roaring down the street.

2 Q. Thank you. Continue your narrative, please. You told us the car

3 turns up with a hand brake turn and Colonel Oric gets out. Thank you.

4 A. Colonel Oric strode out of the car up to the -- towards the PTT

5 building and wanted to speak with General Morillon. I got General

6 Morillon. He came down. And through Mihailov, Colonel Oric said, "Follow

7 me. Come with me."

8 Q. Thank you. Did you follow him?

9 A. Yes. By that stage we had just started the armoured personnel

10 carrier.

11 Q. Thank you. Can I just ask you this: Did you know where you were

12 going?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Or why you were going?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you. Continue, please.

17 A. We got into the armoured personnel carrier and followed the black

18 Mercedes which went back in the direction of the centre of town and

19 stopped halfway to the centre of town, 300 metres from the PTT building,

20 500 metres from the PTT building, something like that.

21 Colonel Oric got out and walked into a house which was at the side

22 of the -- side of the road which, coming from the direction of the PTT

23 building, was to the right.

24 Q. Thanks. Can I just ask you to pause your narrative there. You

25 said it was a house. Now, do you mean a private residence of some sort?

Page 5923

1 A. Yes, I do. I mean a private house. Not an office or a shop or --

2 Q. Right.

3 A. -- anything like that.

4 Q. Can you remember if it was an apartment building?

5 A. No, it was definitely not an apartment building.

6 Q. So what you might call a bungalow style house, single story or --

7 A. No. It had two stories.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Please continue.

9 A. And he came back out of the house and about two minutes, three

10 minutes later, two Bosniak soldiers appeared with a man, supporting a man

11 between them, and Colonel Oric said to General Morillon, "Take him back to

12 his people." And this man had been a prisoner.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. And was apparently a Serb.

15 Q. Now, were you, at that stage, accompanied by -- I know Morillon

16 was with you, General Morillon was with you, but were you accompanied with

17 other soldiers in your party?

18 A. Yes. We had the armoured personnel carrier, in other words the

19 Canadian crew of the armoured personnel carrier, and Mihailov.

20 Q. Did they have head gear?

21 A. Yes. They were wearing --

22 Q. Colour of the head gear, please?

23 A. They were wearing the blue UN helmets.

24 Q. Thank you. Now can you describe to the Trial Chamber the

25 condition of this individual.

Page 5924

1 A. This man looked like the Jews who were rescued in 1945 from the

2 German concentration camps. His arms were like sticks, his stomach was

3 completely sunk. He was unable to stand. He appeared unable to speak.

4 We got a stretcher out from the armoured personnel carrier. We

5 laid him on this stretcher and he managed to move his arms up as if to

6 protect his head. Mihailov spoke to him in Serbo-Croat and said, "It's

7 okay, it's okay. We're going to take you to hospital," and then he

8 relaxed a bit, but he looked -- he opened his eyes and he was very, very

9 frightened.

10 Q. Can you tell us if he had his wits about him, if he was fully

11 orientated or did he appear confused?

12 A. He appeared very confused.

13 Q. Thank you. And what did you -- what did you do with him?

14 A. We turned the armoured personnel carrier around. We put him into

15 the back of the armoured personnel carrier on the stretcher, turned the

16 armoured personnel carrier around and drove to the yellow bridge.

17 Q. Did you hand -- did you hand him over?

18 A. When we were at the yellow bridge, we stopped and called over

19 Serbs, soldiers, and Mihailov explained we had a person who needed

20 evacuation, and about five minutes later, an ambulance arrived from the

21 direction of Bratunac and one of the Serb militia soldiers said that he

22 thought he recognised the man and thought he knew who he was and that he

23 was a local. He was put into the Serb ambulance and driven off up from

24 the yellow bridge towards the Bratunac. That was the last I saw of him.

25 Q. Thank you. How did the rest of the day pan out? What did you do

Page 5925

1 for the remainder of the day?

2 A. We then went to the meeting that had been scheduled in Bratunac,

3 and in fact again we had been promised that Mladic would be there, but

4 Mladic didn't turn up again, and it was General Gvero who was there. We

5 met with him and the mayor of Bratunac.

6 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you to look at your diary again, please.

7 And can I ask you to go to page -- well, ERN number 3536, please.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thanks. I can see more clearly on the ELMO. There's a date there

10 that's clear, the 21st of March, I think.

11 A. The date is 21st of March, 2100, by TACSAT to Kiseljak.

12 Q. Thank you. Again, is this the content of a radio message that you

13 sent?

14 A. It was the first of a series of radio messages that I sent to

15 Kiseljak.

16 Q. At about 9 in the evening?

17 A. Yes. By that stage, the Americans had provided another TACSAT

18 radio to Kiseljak, so instead of us having to speak to Frankfurt for

19 General Jones in Frankfurt to then relay information, the Americans had

20 now provided a TACSAT to Kiseljak so that we were able to speak directly

21 to Kiseljak.

22 Q. Thank you. And the entry that I am interested is the first one

23 there, you can see it I think under number 1 that looks vaguely like a

24 "7," okay?

25 A. Yes. It's --

Page 5926

1 Q. Yes. If you can just read it out.

2 A. "We released a wounded Serb prisoner. We know of two more Serbs

3 held by Bosnian forces in Srebrenica who commander is trying to get

4 released."

5 Q. Thanks. First line, please, "We released a wounded Serb

6 prisoner." What is that a reference to?

7 A. It's a reference to the events earlier that day that I described

8 to you a few minutes ago.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you -- the next two lines: "We know of two more

10 Serbs held by Bosnian forces in Srebrenica." What are you talking about

11 and what is your source of knowledge about two more Serbs held by Bosnian

12 forces in Srebrenica?

13 A. My recollection is that Colonel Oric said that he had two more

14 prisoners. General Morillon was pressing him, How many prisoners do you

15 have? Don't hold on to them. Release them. That he said that he had two

16 more, but that they were common criminals and nothing to do with fighting.

17 Q. And when had that conversation taken place, to the best of your

18 recollection?

19 A. That morning.

20 Q. So when the prisoner was brought out or...

21 A. Bear in mind that it was General Morillon who told me this. I did

22 not hear that myself. It was General Morillon who told me that he'd been

23 told that, that morning.

24 Q. Thank you. Yes, thank you. I will move on to another topic. Can

25 I ask you to turn your attention to the next day, to the next day, which

Page 5927

1 is the 22nd of March.

2 You've already mentioned a place called Kravica. Did you go

3 there?

4 A. On the 22nd of March, we went to a funeral in Bratunac --

5 Q. Oh.

6 A. -- for the people who had been excavated from Kravica, and we were

7 then taken, after the funeral, in a convoy by the Serbs to Kravica itself

8 and we there saw --

9 Q. We will get on to that in just a moment, if I can just interrupt

10 you. First of all, go back to the funeral in Bratunac. Were members of

11 the Serb leadership present?

12 A. Yes. General Gvero and Madam Plavsic were present, together with

13 a large number of other Serb colonels, who I didn't recognise.

14 Q. You had been invited to this funeral?

15 A. Yes. General Gvero had the previous day asked General Morillon to

16 attend.

17 Q. Thank you. And was your attendance at the funeral purely and

18 simply for the funeral or did you discuss matters touching the sorts of

19 issues that we've been talking about the last two days?

20 A. Again, General Gvero had the previous day apologised for General

21 Mladic not turning up and had said that General Mladic would be at the

22 funeral, which is one reason for General Morillon wanting to attend, to

23 speak with Mladic, but Mladic was not there.

24 Q. Thank you. Now you said that following the funeral, you went to

25 Kravica. Can you describe to the Trial Chamber what you saw in Kravica.

Page 5928

1 A. We were taken to a place where there is a road close to a stream

2 and the stream was about 20, 30 metres away from the road, and down by the

3 edge of the stream there were a number of holes which had been dug up.

4 And there were about three or four people in white coveralls who looked as

5 if they were carrying out forensic analysis of things they told us were

6 bodies which had been dug up out of those holes.

7 Over to the side there was a pile of partially decomposed bodies,

8 and next to the pile of bodies there was a agricultural trailer, which

9 had, again, about 15 or 20 partially decomposed bodies in it. We were

10 then taken to some buildings which were the other side of the road, and

11 there was a barn in which we were taken, and we were shown a wall inside

12 this barn in which there were a large number of holes which we were told

13 were bullet holes, and that the people who had been buried down by the

14 river had all been killed up against that wall and shot and that they, the

15 Serbs, knew this because one person had seen this and had managed to

16 managed to escape and had reported exactly what had happened.

17 Q. Thank you. Following these events in Kravica and Bratunac, did

18 you return to Srebrenica?

19 A. Yes, we did.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. Would Your Honours just give me a moment.

21 Q. Yes. I will ask you to return to the diary again now, please. I

22 would ask that you look at entry 3540.

23 Now, at the top of the page, I think there might be a date which,

24 in the photocopy, is obscured by --

25 A. It says, "From Kiseljak 2100 hours TACSAT 21 March."

Page 5929

1 Q. I see. I'm sorry to jump around like this, but at the bottom of

2 the page is the entry that I'm interested in. You can see -- in fact just

3 read out the entry.

4 A. It says "0800, 22 March, to Kiseljak. HF --" in other words by HF

5 radio, not the TACSAT.

6 Q. Right. Oh, right. The text that appears underneath is for the

7 22nd -- entries for the 22nd of --

8 A. That is correct, yes.

9 Q. -- March. Thank you. I'm sorry. Now if you look at the entries,

10 please, could you just read them out. As best you can.

11 A. "Number 1, marker panels, two times Dayglo orange. Five foot by

12 --" it's a dimension.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. "-- in T.

15 "Number 2. Confirm secure COMMs team to arrive by helicopter.

16 Yes.

17 "3. Find out how many lying wounded, sitting wounded. Numbers

18 changing."

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. "4. Request Canada inform next-of-kin of armoured personnel

21 carrier crew that they are doing a fantastic job and inform next-of-kin

22 that they are safe and sound."

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. "5. Oric said he received message from --" and I turn to the next

25 page -- "Halilovic to suspend all hostile actions."

Page 5930

1 Q. That entry there is what I'm interested in. What is that a

2 reference to?

3 A. That is a reference to General Morillon telling me later on the

4 previous day that Colonel Oric had, when the prisoners of war were being

5 handed over, told him that Halilovic had ordered him to suspend all

6 hostile actions.

7 The reason for this was that Morillon had been pressing Oric to

8 confirm that he had been ordered specifically by Halilovic to suspend all

9 hostile actions because Dr. Ganic had told him that he had issued such

10 instructions to Halilovic, to issue such instructions to Colonel Oric, but

11 he wanted to confirm that that had actually happened. But I had not

12 myself heard Colonel Oric say that. It was something that had occurred

13 between General Morillon and Colonel Oric the previous day.

14 Q. But you had heard words to the same effect previously on or around

15 the 17th?

16 A. Yes. But it wasn't specific. And the Serbs had been telling us

17 that a public retraction of Halilovic's order to all Bosniaks to continue

18 attacking towards eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina and Srebrenica and Gorazde,

19 that public retraction had not yet happened.

20 Q. I see. Thank you very much. Thank you.

21 The next day, the 23rd of March, did you see Mr. -- sorry, Colonel

22 Oric?

23 A. Yes. We saw him again in the evening. I would say the evening,

24 but may I refer to my diary?

25 Q. Are you unable to --

Page 5931

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You so may.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Yes, please do.

3 Q. If it's -- I may be able to assist you, if it's of any help to

4 you.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 35 -- we start with 23rd of March on page 3548.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, we did meet again once more with Colonel Oric

8 on the 23rd of March, in the morning.


10 Q. Can you confirm that His Honour is indeed correct, that the

11 entries for the 23rd of March do start at 344 --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 3548.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: 3548. Sorry.

14 THE WITNESS: 3548? Let me check. Yes. Sir, you are correct.

15 They start on 3548.


17 Q. Yes, okay. All right. Thanks. And if you would turn over to

18 3550 and you -- there is an entry there about a third of the way down,

19 what I think is the 23rd of March. Can you just read that text out,

20 please.

21 A. The text says: "23 March, 10.40, Naser Oric. Commander tried to

22 calm situation and prevent acts of desperation by local military and said

23 he would go to Bratunac to try to gain cease-fire in south-east."

24 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber how the encounter

25 with Colonel Oric took place on that day.

Page 5932

1 A. Yes. It was a short meeting. Colonel Oric came into the PTT

2 building and General Morillon was about to depart to go to Zvornik. And

3 Colonel Oric was not feeling very well and was very depressed again, and

4 General Morillon's main concern was to try and calm Colonel Oric so that

5 he would not carry out any kind of attacks or offensive operations which

6 would antagonise the Serbs and give the Serbs excuses to continue with

7 their offensive because in previous meetings that we had had with the

8 Serbs in Bratunac and down at the yellow bridge, we had, on a number of

9 occasions, been told by the Serb military with whom we were meeting that

10 attacks by the Bosniaks inside the Srebrenica enclave had continued. And

11 each day we met the Serb colonel at the yellow bridge that told us three

12 men were killed here, five men were killed there. These Muslims -- and

13 that's the words he used -- do not want a cease-fire. They only want one

14 when it suits them. And they were very angry. And very bitter. And were

15 accusing us, United Nations, of being partisan. So what General Morillon

16 was trying to do in this short meeting with Colonel Oric was to dissuade

17 him from continuing with attacks which it would appear, from what the

18 Serbs were telling us, were continuing, despite us having been told that

19 he had received orders not to and despite his assurances to General

20 Morillon that he was not.

21 Q. Thank you. In the time that you were in Srebrenica enclave, did

22 you ever have occasion to go to a place called Zelina or Zelina Jadar and

23 another place called Osmace?

24 A. I went to Zelina Jadar, but not to Osmace.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you know if those places were mentioned or raised

Page 5933

1 during this encounter with Colonel Oric?

2 A. They may well have been. I cannot recall.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's five minutes to go to

5 the break. Could I seek your indulgence and ask for an early five minute

6 adjournment? I am - I've made good ground this afternoon. I'm about to

7 move on to some other topics that I may not need to go into and I would

8 just like to consider my position. It will save time in the long run, if

9 five minutes is not going to hurt us, and I'm pretty confident that I will

10 be finishing today.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. We will have a -- I was

12 going to suggest that we try and have a shorter break, 20 minutes instead

13 of the usual 25 or 30 minutes, if that is --

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I just need to look at my notes, if Your Honours

15 please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So we will have a 20-minute break. Thank you.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. We had been -- you're not going to need your diary for what I

22 have, the few remaining questions that I have, Colonel Tucker.

23 Other than -- sorry. Let me start again.

24 You've testified, just before the break, of your encounter with

25 Colonel Oric on the 23rd of March, 1993. When did you eventually leave

Page 5934

1 the Srebrenica area?

2 A. I left the -- I left the Srebrenica enclave for the last time on

3 the 28th of March.

4 Q. And I think you left the territory of the former Yugoslavia very

5 shortly thereafter?

6 A. Two days later.

7 Q. Two days later. Thank you. In between the 23rd of March and the

8 28th when you left Srebrenica, did you see Mr. Oric again?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. And was the 23rd the -- of March 1993 in fact the last occasion

11 you saw him?

12 A. Until I saw him yesterday.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Thank you, Colonel Tucker, I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, in all fairness, I need to ask you, Mr. Jones,

16 whether you are in a position to start the cross-examination straight

17 away, or whether you want an adjournment now, especially since we also

18 moved the sitting -- tomorrow's sitting from the afternoon to the morning,

19 whether you want an adjournment now. It's up to you. We will accommodate

20 you.

21 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I would be happy to

22 start now, to make use of the time, and I did -- I was alerted by Mr. Di

23 Fazio that he would finish fairly shortly.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 MR. JONES: If Your Honours would just give me a moment to get the

Page 5935

1 lectern on the desk.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Jones.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones.

4 Q. Good afternoon, or good evening, Colonel Tucker. I'm just going

5 to ask some preliminary questions and then go to your diary again, and I

6 will be going through that basically from the start and asking for

7 clarifications of certain entries.

8 Firstly, very firstly, just to flesh out some more personal

9 details: Your background is somewhat unusual, isn't it? You were in fact

10 born in Kenya and educated in Belgium and Germany; would that be right?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And are your parents both British?

13 A. My father is South African and my mother is Scottish.

14 Q. So English is your first language, obviously.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You're currently a consultant; is that correct?

17 A. No. I'm currently a senior executive of a company, I was a

18 consultant up until a couple of years ago.

19 Q. And what's the nature of the business that that company conducts?

20 A. My current company is a supply chain management company. It's a

21 company called Excel, which is the largest supply chain management company

22 in the world. It's a FTSE 100 listed company.

23 Q. Okay, thank you. And your military training is as an artillery

24 officer, as a gunner, as I think we say.

25 A. That is correct.

Page 5936

1 Q. And your training isn't as an intelligence officer, is it?

2 A. I did undergo some intelligence training. I spent a tour of duty

3 in Northern Ireland as an intelligence officer early on in my career and

4 went on about three months worth of courses about intelligence matters.

5 Q. You've told us about sources of intelligence when you were in

6 Bosnia. Is it right that those sources were briefing -- when they were

7 doing it face-to-face, briefing General Morillon as opposed to you

8 personally; would that be correct?

9 A. Usually it was briefing General Morillon and I was present, though

10 in a number of circumstances -- a number of situations when there was

11 something that we needed to know more about or General Morillon had asked

12 me to find me more about, I would then go and specifically ask for

13 specific briefings about materials.

14 Q. If I pause occasionally it is for the interpretation --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please make pauses

16 between question and answer.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You hear the interpreters. It is important --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It is important to allow an interval between

20 question and answer, because otherwise we will have problems. Please

21 remember that interpreters are translating simultaneously into French and

22 into Serbo-Croat.

23 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


Page 5937

1 Q. Finally just on this subject, is it right that most of your

2 communications with General Morillon were conducted in French?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. Now, you do have a copy of your diary, don't you, in front of you

5 and also the photocopy so you can follow the ERN numbers.

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. I'm going to start by asking you some questions about this diary.

8 I think, though it's been done to a certain extent, what might be useful

9 firstly is if we just establish the starting points for each date, each

10 entry date. So would it be correct that the 10th of March starts on -- I

11 will just do the four last numbers -- 3420?

12 A. Yes, it does.

13 Q. So just on that, you have no diary then of the period prior to

14 that?

15 A. Yes, I do. It is a different document, which I don't actually

16 have with me.

17 Q. You possess --

18 A. But I do possess it, yes.

19 Q. And do you recall roughly when that -- what period that covers?

20 A. Yes. That diary covers from the day that I deployed into

21 Srebrenica -- in Bosnia-Herzegovina in October 1992 and it goes up to the

22 9th of March, in other words the day before this document, and it picks up

23 again for the last couple of days that I was in Bosnia before I departed.

24 Q. So in fact is it right that that diary covers the period that you

25 were in Konjevic Polje?

Page 5938

1 A. Yes, it does.

2 Q. Carrying on with -- we may come back to that, but carrying on with

3 the dates. 11th of March starts on 3429. Would that be right?

4 A. Yes, it does.

5 Q. And 12th of March, 3435?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. 13th of March, 3442?

8 A. Yes, it does.

9 Q. 14th of March, 3450?

10 A. Yes, it does.

11 Q. Then the 15th of March, 3463?

12 A. Yes, it does.

13 Q. And by the way, I think, just to make it clear, the objective of

14 this exercise is that in due course we will be able to identify

15 chronologically entries by these numbers. I apologise if this is a bit

16 slow.

17 16th of March, 3480?

18 A. Yes, it does.

19 Q. And 17th of March, 3491?

20 A. Yes, it does.

21 Q. Now the 18th of March is perhaps slightly more complicated, in

22 that I think you'll agree there's an entry at 3502 of 18th of March and

23 then also your evidence was it starts at 3504, so perhaps you can help us

24 with that.

25 A. No. The reference on 3502 is about the time that my next radio

Page 5939

1 communication will be the next day. The 18th of March actually starts on

2 3504.

3 Q. Right. Thank you for that. 19th of March, 3517. I should say

4 halfway down the page.

5 A. The 20th of March? That's what you were saying?

6 Q. I was actually asking about the 19th of March.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He's asking about the 19th.


9 Q. Am I right that starts on 3517, and I believe it would be

10 highlighted in blue halfway down the page.

11 A. I'm trying to find the...

12 No. The 19th of March starts on the previous page, 3516.

13 Q. Okay, thank you.

14 A. And at the top it says 1900 -- it says, where my finger is

15 pointing - I'm looking at the ELMO - it says 1900, 19th of March, chief of

16 staff and commander.

17 Q. So your first entry on that day started at 1900, or what is timed

18 as 1900?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Okay. And then the 20th of March, 3518; would that be right?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. 21st of March --

23 A. Sorry. 3517.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Exactly. I would redirect the witness

25 to page 3517, because I think it makes more sense if the first entry for

Page 5940

1 the 20th is the one we see on halfway down page 3517 rather than 3518.

2 THE WITNESS: It is 3517, as you say, sir.

3 MR. JONES: Right. Thank you. Obviously we can't see on our

4 copy.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I agree. I mean mine is the same.


7 Q. 21st of March, 3524, more than halfway down the page.

8 A. Yes. That is correct.

9 Q. Just a few more days to go. 22nd of March, is that at 3540?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. 23rd March, 3548?

12 A. Yes. Correct.

13 Q. 24th March, 3553?

14 A. Yes, correct.

15 Q. Now, I may stop the exercise there partly because I'm -- I've been

16 unable to find the 25th of March. I don't know if you can help us with

17 that. If you can, then please do let us know.

18 A. No. It goes straight to the meeting that we had with Milosevic in

19 Belgrade, which starts on page 3558.

20 Q. So what page should that be, the meeting in Belgrade?

21 A. That is the 25th.

22 Q. Thank you. And then the 26th of March, does that start on 3563,

23 or 3564?

24 A. No. 26th of March starts on 3563. At the top of the page it says

25 26th March, 1993, Belgrade French embassy.

Page 5941

1 Q. Okay, thank you very much. There are obviously a couple of more

2 dates after that, but for my purposes, that's sufficient.

3 One thing, the diary which you have, the original, it actually

4 goes beyond the 28th of March, does it not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What we have is up to the 28th of March and then some pages from

7 the back of your diary. Would that be correct?

8 A. The last entries in the diary are the -- about the meeting that

9 General Morillon had with Lukic in Pale on his way from Srebrenica back to

10 -- back to Sarajevo. It was with Lukic, Colonel Tolimir and General

11 Kovacevic.

12 Q. If you could turn right back to the beginning, and it's the second

13 page in the copy, 3417 -- we need to look at the original as well. Isn't

14 it right that that actually is a Post-it which has been stuck there?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Do you recall when that Post-it was placed there?

17 A. About three or four years ago.

18 Q. So 2001? 2002?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Do you recall why you put a Post-it there?

21 A. Because I was trying to work out in my own mind exactly the

22 exercise we have just been through, to sort out what actually happened

23 when.

24 Q. This is not contemporaneous?

25 A. No, that is not contemporaneous.

Page 5942

1 Q. And is it also right -- if you look at the 21 March entry where

2 you put Tuzla, and then you have 22nd of March, and you have an entry

3 there about the funeral, I believe.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The line in between, "Released wounded prisoner" --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- that was added after you had written the two other entries that

8 I've just mentioned? It seems to have been squeezed in between the two.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to take you to certain pages of the diary.

11 And if we could go first to 3426. I will just state for the record each

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5943

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5944











11 Page 5944 redacted. Private session.















Page 5945

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.


11 Q. Right. If you could now turn to page 3433. This is 11th of

12 March. It refers to a meeting with the president of the war committee.

13 Now firstly, as a general point, you knew of the war committee during your

14 time in Srebrenica, didn't you? You didn't know of a War Presidency?

15 A. No. The translator for most of this was Mihailov and the words

16 that he used in French were "committee."

17 Q. And if I were to ask you who all the members were of the war

18 committee, you wouldn't be able to tell me, would you?

19 A. I would be able to tell you a few.

20 Q. Maybe just to recapitulate on your testimony; Avdic?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Bektic?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Alic?

25 A. Alic?

Page 5946

1 Q. Senad Alic?

2 A. I would need to --

3 Q. Looking at 3439 of your diary.

4 A. Yes, that is correct, Senad Alic, yes.

5 Q. And Dr. Mukanovic, who we've discussed?

6 A. Yes. And the brother of Murat Effendic.

7 Q. So these are five people, and as far as you're concerned, those

8 were all members of the war committee?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But there may have been other members?

11 A. There were certainly others who were represented as members, but I

12 never found out what their names were.

13 Q. When you've referred to meetings with or discussions with the war

14 committee, you were referring to a meeting with at least Avdic.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Maybe with one or two other people present?

17 A. Yes. Sometimes as many as seven or eight. Sometimes literally

18 only two or three.

19 Q. Sometimes literally only Avdic?

20 A. And a couple of times just Avdic, but I would not have described a

21 meeting with Avdic alone as being a meeting with the war committee.

22 Q. With one or two other people for it to be a committee?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, this has emerged from your testimony, but it's right, isn't

25 it, that you didn't see Naser Oric in Srebrenica until the 17th of March?

Page 5947

1 A. That is correct. I saw him on four occasions.

2 Q. You mentioned how the war committee were sending messages to Oric

3 to come to Srebrenica. Were you aware that he was very busy fighting the

4 Serb offensive that was going on at that time?

5 A. Yes. That was what we were firstly told by the war committee and,

6 secondly, it made obvious sense. He had a job to do.

7 Q. So you could understand perhaps that he wasn't avoiding you, but

8 that he had, as you say, other things to do?

9 A. Yes. We did not believe that he was avoiding us.

10 Q. If you could turn to page 3434, please. Again, this is the 11th

11 of March.

12 I would like you just to read the section where you have a name

13 written between two lines and I suggest to you that that is Von

14 Recklinghausen?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Can you just read those three lines.

17 A. "Von Recklinghausen said that more than a thousand

18 shells had hit KP --" Konjevic Polje -- "after Morillon left and that

19 between 100 and 200 had been killed. He, Philip Von Recklinghausen, saw

20 bodies and that there were now more than 500 injured."

21 Q. And Von Recklinghausen was a German photographer who was in

22 Srebrenica, is that correct?

23 A. That is correct. He was in Srebrenica when we arrived there.

24 Q. And you're aware, aren't you, from Major Alan Abraham and the

25 British soldiers who stayed behind in Konjevic Polje, that there was

Page 5948

1 indeed a terrible shelling in Konjevic Polje after Morillon left?

2 A. Not at that time, we didn't know. We only met again with Major

3 Abraham about the 24th of March. We had no communications with the

4 British convoy which had gone back into Konjevic Polje at the same time as

5 General Morillon went into Srebrenica. This British convoy went into try

6 and evacuate the injured. We had no communications with them because we

7 did not have the right type of radio sets to be able to communicate with

8 the British armoured vehicles.

9 Q. You subsequently learned?

10 A. Yes, we did.

11 Q. And wasn't that shelling, in fact, the subject of Cheshire

12 sitreps?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. You also read General Morillon's book, Croire et Oser about his

15 experiences in Sarajevo, didn't you?

16 A. Yes, yes I have.

17 Q. He too refers to the shelling of Konjevic Polje, doesn't he?

18 A. I -- it's a long time since I read it, but I'm pretty sure he

19 does.

20 Q. That's actually an exhibit but I will come to that I think

21 tomorrow. It might be easier logistically.

22 And you understood, didn't you, when you were blocked in

23 Srebrenica, that this fear that the same thing would happen in Konjevic

24 Polje is very much what was motivating the people to try and keep you

25 there?

Page 5949

1 A. Yes. Absolutely.

2 Q. Were you aware when you were dealing with the people who were

3 blocking you that many of them were from Cerska and Konjevic Polje who had

4 been displaced to Srebrenica?

5 A. Yes, we did.

6 Q. So they were afraid they were going to get shelled again?

7 A. That was their belief and their concern.

8 Q. Now, if you go back to 3439, which we saw earlier because it had

9 the names of the -- who you say were in the war committee. It's actually

10 the bottom half I want to ask you about now. This is 12th of March, 1993.

11 And you have reference to Jagodnja and Joseva.

12 Could you read those few lines and explain what that is about.

13 A. "Jagodnja and Joseva, north, north-west of Skelani, an attack from

14 Fakovici and that they were taken today, 12 March, by the Serbs. That is

15 something which I was told by a member of the war committee at that

16 meeting.

17 Q. So to summarise, that would refer on the 12th of March to a Serb

18 attack from Fakovici on those two places which are located north,

19 north-west of Skelani and they were in fact taken by the Serbs?

20 A. That is what I believe. I do not personally know Jagodnja or

21 Joseva.

22 Q. Can we move now to page 3442. This would be the 13th of March.

23 There is mention again to one of those locations. And I will have a stab

24 at reading what's written there.

25 "1. Reported attacks with helicopters on Jagodnja in Miholjevine

Page 5950

1 refugees flooding into Srebrenica from all directions. Situation could

2 get tough."

3 I'm moving down to the second paragraph -- second sentence of

4 paragraph 4: "Local commander appears helpless."

5 And then, "5. Maybe Naser Oric could help."

6 Is that correct, firstly, reading --

7 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Now, where we see "attacks with helicopters," was it your

9 understanding that would be Serb helicopters?

10 A. In fact the word "Serb" is between the word "reported" and

11 "attacks."

12 Q. Right. Thank you. "Reported Serb attacks with helicopters."

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And the information that refugees were flooding into Srebrenica,

15 from all directions was presumably something you saw yourself. Or is that

16 secondhand information?

17 A. No. That is information -- we could see that ourselves. That's

18 what General Morillon had seen in the previous night whilst he was in that

19 destroyed building watching it.

20 Q. And the sentence paragraph 5 "Maybe Naser Oric could help," isn't

21 that expression of your opinion or whoever provided this information, that

22 he could maybe help with the problems you had with the women's committee?

23 A. Yes. That is correct.

24 Q. So you certainly didn't consider that he was behind what the

25 women's committee was doing at that stage?

Page 5951

1 A. Not at that stage.

2 Q. Now when you say "local commander appears helpless," that

3 obviously refers to someone other than Naser Oric, does it?

4 A. Absolutely. That was the Srebrenica war committee and the

5 military people who attended that committee meeting.

6 Q. Is it local commander or local commanders? Perhaps I'm misreading

7 it?

8 A. I said -- written there is "local commander," in the singular.

9 Q. You were aware of local military commanders in the town of

10 Srebrenica?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Apart from Naser Oric?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Moving forward to 3446. For the record, this is 13th of March.

15 If you could read paragraphs 3 and 4 on that page.

16 A. Paragraph 3 reads: "Hundreds of refugees are streaming into

17 Srebrenica. A potential disaster is in the making. All diplomatic

18 pressure should be brought to bear to halt the Serbs."

19 Then number 4: "Commander believes Serb military are going far

20 beyond the directions given by their politicians."

21 Q. Right. Thank you. A general question and I may be skipping ahead

22 to something, but you've referred to -- well, this clearly refers to

23 offensives which were going on by the Serbs.

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. You have also spoken of attempts by General Morillon to have

Page 5952

1 Colonel Oric, as you referred to him, stop his offensives. Was it really

2 your understanding that there were two sets of offensives going on? Or was

3 this diplomatic peacekeeper language to try to have a solution?

4 A. No. What -- the Serb offensive is what I would describe as an

5 offensive in major areas.

6 What Colonel Oric was doing, our understanding was, was selected

7 individual attacks. In other words, raids. Not an offensive.

8 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you don't know any locations of any of

9 those alleged raids?

10 A. We have -- we had no information at all. We only had what the

11 Serbs had, in a couple of occasions, alleged and -- but we had no personal

12 knowledge of anything specific.

13 Q. Isn't it a fact, and in fact the Serbs throughout the conflict in

14 Bosnia and during the time you were in Srebrenica continually used as a

15 pretext for prosecuting their war aim, the excuse that Muslims were

16 launching raids or provocations?

17 A. That excuse was used by all three factions all the time.

18 Q. So you took -- you took it with a very large pinch of salt, I take

19 it.

20 A. We believed that in the current circumstances in Srebrenica it was

21 highly likely that Colonel Oric was carrying out raids. It's what we

22 would have done in his position. Whether he was carrying out attacks

23 against civilian populations and killing civilians or massacring civilians

24 we had no knowledge of.

25 Q. Now, on the next page, 3447, and I think it's correct to say

Page 5953

1 that that -- the note at the bottom, where an arrow leads to, is in fact

2 coming from the previous page. You have the words "It's an emergency" and

3 I will let you read that sentence.

4 A. That writing is in fact General Morillon's handwriting. And he

5 inserted it at the end of his statements, the one that he read out loud

6 over the loudspeaker. And it says: "It's an emergency for the thousands

7 of refugees. Many of them haven't got anything, got nothing to eat for

8 five days."

9 Q. When he said that, I take it he wasn't being hyperbolic, that was

10 based on real information that he had?

11 A. Yes. And I can sit here and say yes, I saw that. It is true.

12 Q. And on that theme, did you not see people in Srebrenica who were

13 in extremely emaciated state? I'm not talking about the Serb prisoner you

14 mentioned, but Muslims who were in an extremely emaciated state?

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 Q. Now, if you can just turn to the next page, 3448, please. And I

17 wonder if I could ask you to read paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 on that page.

18 A. May I read the sentence above it, which is in the highlighter

19 which is difficult to see. It says: "UNMO patrol reported --" our UN

20 military observer patrol reported.

21 Q. Yes, thank you.

22 A. Which is items 1, 2, and 3. Item 1 is "Village Osmace grid,

23 Charlie Pepper under constant attack by tanks firing in indirect role from

24 grid Charlie Pepper 7474 and by artillery and multiple rocket-launchers.

25 Village severely beaten up. Later fire, ten rounds per hour."

Page 5954

1 Q. Okay. If I could stop you there. Just for clarity's sake: The

2 tanks, the artillery, the multiple rocket-launchers --

3 A. Were all Serb.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. "2. At 1715 hours, saw one propeller driven biplane drop three

6 bombs on village Gladovici, grid Charlie Pepper 7173 and fly over Drina

7 into Serbia. Thereafter two single engine propeller driven monoplanes

8 came from Serbia, circled, dropped some bombs, and flew away over Serbia."

9 Q. Again, I would ask you to pause there for a moment. This is

10 information from the UNMOs. Is it something you also observed, Serb

11 airplanes over Srebrenica?

12 A. I personally did not, but the UNMOs told me they did and this is

13 part of their report.

14 Q. And isn't it right that actually the diplomatic state of play at

15 the time, it was very serious for Serb planes from Serbia proper to be

16 involved because that was in violation of various UN resolutions?

17 A. Yes. This particular report went all the way to New York because

18 this was the first clear evidence that existed in the international

19 community that Serbia itself was engaged in military operations inside

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 Q. Okay, thank you. An then the third paragraph and the concluding

22 paragraph, please.

23 A. "3. Non-stop streams of refugees from these and other outlying

24 villages heading for Srebrenica. This info must be passed immediately to

25 Zagreb for New York as is first independent confirmation of aircraft

Page 5955

1 attacking from Serbia."

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now we can move forward to 3550. And you've

3 been asked about the jamming of the communications already by His Honour.

4 It does, however, lead into the subject of the radio

5 communications obliquely and so I will take this opportunity to ask you a

6 little about that.

7 You described the radio setup which you saw in the PTT as being

8 sophisticated. You've pointed to the size of the equipment, the fact that

9 it had a lot of knobs and switches and the use of headphones as indices of

10 sophistication. I put it to you that in fact that's not a particularly

11 sophisticated analysis, is it, of whether or not the equipment is

12 sophisticated. Firstly, large equipment could be very unsophisticated.

13 Do you agree?

14 A. Absolutely.

15 Q. Do you know which --

16 MR. JONES: Sorry, would Your Honours give me a moment?

17 [Legal counsel confer]

18 Q. Firstly, would you agree that communications from the radio could

19 be intercepted by the Serbs, it was an open line?

20 A. Yes. It was in clear.

21 Q. All right. As a military man you know, I suppose, that it's next

22 to useless to give military commands over a line that the enemy can listen

23 to. Would you agree with that?

24 A. If it's the only means you have, you take that risk.

25 Q. Do you know what frequency the -- they were using?

Page 5956

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know how many watts the radio was generated by? How

3 many --

4 A. It can't have been much, because they only had a very faint, very

5 weak electricity supply, and I believe that they had a bank of batteries

6 and they had to charge up the batteries before they could actually use the

7 transmitter.

8 Q. Do you agree it could be about fifty watts?

9 A. I would be surprised if it was as much as that.

10 Q. So when you say "powerful," you're not speaking in terms of

11 wattage, are you?

12 A. No. I'm speaking in terms of reliability and solidity of the

13 equipment.

14 Q. Okay. It's a subject I may come back to, but thank you for those

15 answers.

16 Now, if we move ahead to 3453. This would be the 14th of March.

17 I would ask if you could just read into the record the second paragraph of

18 that sitrep dealing with the humanitarian situation on the 14th of March.

19 A. "2. Humanitarian situation.

20 "A. Claims of 60.000 to 80.000 in Srebrenica pocket would appear

21 exaggerated. Population fleeing to Srebrenica from all directions at 500

22 to 1.000 people per day.

23 "B. Hundreds of refugees camping out in streets of Srebrenica

24 require UNHCR plastic sheeting in large quantities.

25 "C. Thousands of refugees in town and vicinity.

Page 5957

1 "D. 130 lying wounded in hospital, estimated another 60 to 80 in

2 surrounding area."

3 Then with a line through it, it says "Remainder of wounded are

4 walking. Numbers going up by two or three. Antibiotics are top

5 priority."

6 Q. Before you move on to the next page, describe the temperature at

7 this time as being minus 15 to minus 20 degrees Centigrade.

8 A. Which day are we talking about here?

9 Q. This is the 14th of March.

10 A. The 14th it had started getting quite a lot warmer, but it was

11 still down 10, minus 15 at nights. In the sun, in the day, it would

12 probably break zero, but it was still damn cold.

13 Q. So the people you saw on the streets burning plastic crates when

14 you first arrived were in a pretty desperate situation?

15 A. They were in a terrible state.

16 Q. If you could turn to the next page, 3454, and read (B) there,

17 please.

18 A. This does not connect to the previous page.

19 Q. If you could tell us what it connects to.

20 A. Yes. It connects to the next page in -- if you look at page 35

21 -- 3455 you have: "1. One combat activities, 1a. Srebrenica relatively

22 quiet." B. crossed out and there is a line which then goes across. In

23 the diary, the line goes across to --

24 Q. So if you could read that with the -- with our understanding that

25 it in fact goes from 3455 and it's a sitrep from the 14th of March.

Page 5958

1 A. "B. Serb attacks and bombing as reported yesterday by UNMOs.

2 Correction to last night's report. First aircraft dropped three bombs on

3 Gladovici. Second aircraft dropped three bombs on same village. Third

4 aircraft dropped three bombs on Osatica" and a grid reference. "Second

5 and third aircraft believed to be Kraguj bombers. Local commander said

6 they flew from Ponikve --" I'm sorry, my pronunciation is bad -- "airfield

7 in Serbia."

8 Then crossed out: "15 kilometres at a bearing of 2300 Mls from

9 Bajina Basta."

10 Q. And this was information provided by the UNMOs?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Do you remember, incidentally, which UNMOs were providing you with

13 this information?

14 A. Yes. It was a Canadian UNMO.

15 Q. Captain Dave McDonald?

16 A. No. Flynn, I think -- can I look in my --

17 Q. Certainly.

18 A. Yes it was Captain Flynn and it was a Canadian -- a captain, and

19 Captain Zoutendijk, a Dutch captain, but it was Captain Flynn who gave

20 those reports.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. Then on the next page from which it comes,

22 3455, if you could read paragraph D, please.

23 A. "D. Serb offensive is not an offensive in the classical sense. It

24 consists of slow steady and deliberate shelling of front line villages.

25 The population flee as they have lost heart. Then an attack is put in by

Page 5959

1 a mixed infantry tank company sized grouping. Due to shortage of ammo on

2 Bosnian side, villages fall one by one and Serbs proceed to next series of

3 villages. It is a slow remorseless and continual advance."

4 Q. And does that reflect your understanding or at any rate your

5 intelligence as of the 14th of March, 1993, that those offensives, Serb

6 offences were going on in that way?

7 A. Not only on the 14th of March. It was our intelligence and

8 understanding that that was the entire way that the Serb military were

9 operating, what I referred to as the offensive earlier.

10 Q. If just -- perhaps to summarise in a way what was going on and

11 tell me if you agree with this description, would you say it was a

12 relentless crushing of the pocket that was being pursued?

13 A. Yes. It was terrorism by artillery. It was terrorising the

14 population of a village so that the moment the shells started dropping the

15 villagers knew that their turn was next. The Serb -- I mean literally it

16 was only three shells an hour. But that was enough to terrorise the

17 population, who would then flee.

18 Then two days later, three days later, there would be a quick

19 sudden little Serb attack. Nothing that a journalist could observe and

20 watch and get excited about and say, oh, there's a big offensive there,

21 but it was remorseless. It was like, do you know the old computer game

22 PacMan? The way we described it was the Serb PacMan.

23 Q. Gobbling up village by village.

24 A. Village by village. Remorseless. The issue for the refugees in

25 Srebrenica, the ones who surrounded us, is that they -- they believed they

Page 5960

1 were going to die. It was not a question of if, it was only a question of

2 when.

3 Q. I believe that is reflected on the next page, 3456. These people

4 believe they will be killed in the next few weeks?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. One final question before we break. You described the difficult

7 conditions under which Naser Oric was operating as a commander. These

8 were the conditions which you had in mind?

9 A. They and many other aspects.

10 Q. Yes.

11 MR. JONES: I think that is a convenient point to break.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones, and I thank you, Colonel

13 Tucker. We will reconvene at 9.00 in this same courtroom.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

16 March, 2005 at 9.00 a.m.