Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6555

1 Monday, 4 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning to everyone. I see we are almost in

6 full force today. Mr. Wubben, I don't see. Could you call the case,

7 please, Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, thank you Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Oric, good morning to you.

11 THE ACCUSED: Good morning.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I want a confirmation from you that you can follow

13 the proceedings in your own language.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I

15 can.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The English translation is receiving the B/C/S

18 translation instead of the original floor. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a problem? One moment.

20 THE INTERPRETER: There's a technical problem, yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought the transcript had got stuck, but it is

22 rolling now. Yes, Mr. Di Fazio appearances for the Prosecution.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, good morning Your Honours and good

24 morning to the Defence. My name is De Fazio. I appear with the

25 Prosecution together with my colleagues, Ms. Richardson, Mr. Doria, and

Page 6556

1 our case manager, Mrs. Henry-Frijlink.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it Mr. Wubben won't be with us the entire

3 week. Is that correct?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: That's correct.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for Naser Oric.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name

7 is Vasvija Vidovic and together with Mr. John Jones, we represent the

8 Defence counsel of Mr. Naser Oric. With us is our legal assistant,

9 Miss Adisa Mehic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. Good morning

10 to the Prosecutor as well.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I thank you, madam, and good morning to you

12 and your team. Are there any preliminaries before we proceed with the

13 videolink?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: On the issue that you wanted to be addressed upon,

15 namely the length of the Prosecution case.


17 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that you're happy if the Prosecution

18 addresses you on that towards the end of the week. We feel that you have

19 more benefit from us addressing you then, because there are a number of

20 matters that we want to clear up and hopefully get a more accurate picture

21 by the end of the week.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Di Fazio. Yes you are

23 correct. There is no point in trying to insist on a feedback if you are

24 not yet in a 100 per cent accurate position to give one, but please convey

25 our message to Mr. Wubben that we are desperately anxious to know as soon

Page 6557

1 as soon as possible. So take your time, but do come back, because we need

2 to plan for many reasons, particularly because the term of the two ad

3 litem Judges expires, although there is an automatic extension agreed to

4 already by the Security Council, but that in itself also imposes certain

5 restrictions that we need to respect.

6 On the other hand, also, the point -- the message that I want to

7 convey to you is that -- stick to what is barely necessary. I mean there

8 is no point in trying to prove three times what you can comfortably prove

9 with one witness. This is the position. Of course, it doesn't mean to

10 say that you ought to make presumptions, but as experienced Prosecutors

11 you ought to know whether a point that you are seeking to prove by means

12 of a particular witness is proved with some considerable weight or,

13 whether it is dodgy. So, yes Mr. Di Fazio.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: That's precisely one of the matters that we need to

15 clarify.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I would imagine so. I mean if you

17 realise that there are points in the indictment that you have proved

18 sufficiently already, I think you have a responsibility not to hammer it

19 in. On the other hand, if there are areas which you know you will never

20 be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt, I think it is the case of

21 letting go. I mean, it's -- the case has progressed enough, according to

22 me, enough -- sufficiently enough to make it clear to the Prosecutor more

23 or less where we are heading.

24 So, now, we have -- you don't have any preliminaries on your --

25 MR. JONES: No.

Page 6558

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Who will be handling the witness?

2 MR. JONES: I will.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Jones, are you familiar with the system,

4 how it works, videolink?

5 MR. JONES: Yes. We used it once before with another witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

7 MR. JONES: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are. I don't think I need to explain to you

9 how it works. So let's proceed. The witness is -- does not enjoy any

10 protective measures to my knowledge. Okay. Her name is Stana Stamenic

11 and let's proceed with her testimony now. Yes. Now we depend entirely on

12 the technical people.

13 Yes, I see the member of the registrar, a representative of the

14 registrar on the screen. Madam, can you hear my voice?

15 [Witness testified via videolink]

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, perfectly, Your Honour.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are receiving B/C/S

18 interpretation in the head phones.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I ask you, again, to repeat please, confirm

20 whether you are hearing my voice.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I hear you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And I want to know the report on the position from

23 the three interpreters' booth. Are you in a position to hear the member

24 of the registrar.

25 THE INTERPRETER: It's very faint and we can also hear the B/C/S

Page 6559

1 channel coming through.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That I could hear as well. And again I think

3 once we know what the problems are, there are two things to be done. One

4 is to increase the volume of the -- on the microphone set where the

5 witness -- which the witness will be speaking into and, secondly, if we

6 could have blocked, as far as those following the English language, if we

7 could have blocked the B/C/S interpretation because, as I speak, I can

8 still hear -- I don't now. I don't now.

9 So let's start all over again. Isa, please could I ask you once

10 more to confirm for me - and speak into the microphone, please - confirm

11 whether you can hear my voice.

12 THE REGISTRAR: I hear your voice perfectly, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is very low. Could you really speak into

14 the microphone.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, can you hear me now?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it is much better. If we could

17 increase the volume it will be better, but I still hear in the background

18 the B/C/S interpretation. A male voice interpreting. It could be a

19 person present in the room who is interpreting.

20 I am informed that they are working on it, so I take it that a

21 solution will be found. In the meantime, let's proceed. I would like to

22 see the witness so that I can welcome her and also speak to her.

23 Good morning to you, Madam Stamenic. Before I continue, I would

24 like you to confirm to me that what I am saying in English, you are

25 receiving in your own language by way of interpretation.

Page 6560

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, if at any time you are not receiving

3 interpretation, in other words if there are problems with transmission of

4 interpretation in your own language, please draw the attention of the

5 other persons that are in the room, particularly my registrar, the

6 representative of the registrar, because we will need to address that

7 problem immediately before we can proceed any further. Did I make myself

8 clear?

9 Yes, I would like to know if you have understood what I said, in

10 other words whether you have received interpretation. And whether you

11 understand.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If at any time also you would like a rest,

14 please let me know. We will have a break at about 10.30, which will give

15 you a rest, and then we will proceed and have another break at about

16 12.30, but in the meantime, in between, if you would like to stop for a

17 few minutes for reasons of your own, do let me know. Did you understand

18 me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. My name is Carmel Agius and I come from

21 the island of Malta. To my right I have Judge Hans Henrik Brydensholt

22 from Denmark, and to the left I have Judge Albin Eser from Germany.

23 Together we form the Trial Chamber in this case, which the Prosecutor has

24 instituted against Naser Oric. You will very shortly start giving your

25 testimony and before we proceed with that, according to our Rules, you are

Page 6561

1 required to enter a solemn declaration to the effect that in the course of

2 your testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and

3 nothing but the truth. The young lady representing our registrar who is

4 in the room with you is going to give you a -- the text of this solemn

5 declaration. Please take it in your hands and read out loud the words

6 contained in that text. That will be your solemn undertaking with us, a

7 solemn undertaking equivalent to an oath in many jurisdictions. Did you

8 follow what I said?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So could you please proceed with your solemn

11 declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truly, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [The witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, madam. You can hand back the

17 paper to the registrar or to the registrar. You are first going to be

18 asked questions by an officer from the Prosecution. He will then be

19 followed later on by one of -- the member of the Defence team of Naser

20 Oric.

21 Your responsibility is to give a truthful and full answer to the

22 question that is put to you, but only to the question that is put to you.

23 In other words, please do not try to give more information than you are

24 asked. Please try to answer the question, the whole question, and nothing

25 but the question. Did you understand me?

Page 6562

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, madam. Yes. Please, go ahead

3 Examined by Mr. Doria:

4 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Madam Stamenic, as you heard from His Honour I would appreciate if

6 you could answer exactly to the questions that have been put to you, and

7 if you could restrict yourself to yes or no, that would be very helpful.

8 Madam Stamenic, is that correct that you have born on the 20th of

9 August, 1975?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that correct that in January, 1993, you were about 18 years

12 old?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is that correct that you are of Serb ethnicity?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that correct that in 1993 you were living in a small village of

17 Kusici?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Madam Stamenic, could you please to the Trial Chamber how big is

20 the village of Kusici? Has it any surrounding hamlets?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you give the name of the surrounding hamlets?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What were the surrounding hamlets?

25 A. Markovici, Perici, Otave, Petkovci, Riztici [phoen], Beserovici,

Page 6563

1 and Brdo.

2 Q. All right. The village of Kusici together with surrounding

3 hamlets, were they part of which municipality? Were they part of the

4 municipality of Srebrenica or any other municipality?

5 A. Another one.

6 Q. Which municipality, please?

7 A. Skelani.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many households were in the village of

9 Kusici? I don't want specific numbers, but if you could say approximately

10 how many households were in the village of Kusici. How many families were

11 living in the village of Kusici?

12 A. 20.

13 Q. Thank you. And was the village of Kusici entirely a Serb village?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know how far from the village of Kusici was the nearest

16 Muslim village?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And how far was it?

19 A. A kilometre, or two.

20 Q. Would you also give the name of the nearest Muslim village.

21 A. Kadrici.

22 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you say that in 1993 you were about 18

23 years old. What were you doing at that time? Were you sitting together

24 at your home? Or you were in another place, just before the event, the

25 attacks.

Page 6564

1 A. I was at home, with my family.

2 Q. Did you have any particular occupation? Were you a student?

3 A. During the school break I went to my mother's place in the

4 village.

5 Q. You mentioned a school break. What was the school break? Was

6 that a holiday?

7 A. It was after the end of the first semester.

8 Q. And I guess this was the period of the Orthodox Christmas in the

9 Orthodox New Year; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Madam Stamenic, may I assume that you were staying at home with

12 your mother. Can you give the name of your mother.

13 A. Milena.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to direct your attention to the events

15 that occurred in January 1993. Do you remember what happened in January

16 1993?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what happened on that day.

19 A. Our village was attacked.

20 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who attacked your village.

21 A. The Muslim army.

22 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what makes you say that they were

23 Muslim forces. Is that because you heard anything being said? Or is that

24 because of the dressing that they had?

25 A. The way they were dressed and also I heard that it was them.

Page 6565

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this needs -- calls for an explanation, both

2 ways. What was in the dress or clothes that distinguished them from

3 others, and secondly, what did she hear? What does she mean when she

4 says "she heard". I think it needs to be explained. So I leave it up to

5 you.

6 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Madam Stamenic, you heard properly what Your Honour said. Can you

8 explain, more precisely, when you say that you recognised them by the way

9 they were dressing. How were they dressing?

10 A. They wore camouflage uniformed as they had read head bands and I

11 also could distinguish them by the way they spoke. They didn't make a

12 distinction between "c" and "c."

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, were you aware, madam, that even Serbian

14 soldiers wore camouflage uniforms?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically if two soldiers, one Muslim and one

17 Serbian, were both wearing camouflage uniforms, you wouldn't be able to

18 tell the difference between one and the other, would you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had red head bands.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically, therefore, it's not the uniform that

21 distinguished the Muslims from other soldiers, but this red band that --

22 that they were wearing? Headband.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Were they all wearing red headbands or only a few?

25 Or a number of them?

Page 6566

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More of them.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And again you said that the way they

3 spoke revealed to you their ethnicity because there was one letter that

4 they did not pronounce as -- the same way as others did. What was this

5 letter, please? And could you give us an example.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The two"c's", with diacritics.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you give me an example of a word that would be

8 pronounced differently by you, being of Serbian ethnicity, and another

9 person from your own region being of Muslim ethnicity. Just give me one

10 word and tell me how you would pronounce it and how they would pronounce

11 it.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For example, the family name

13 Mitrovic. I would say Mitrovic. And they would say Mitrovic.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I mean if you're happy with the explanation,

15 then I can come along, but I am not exactly happy. I haven't ...

16 I haven't really found any difference.

17 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour. I think we will fairly qualify

18 this issue.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.


21 Q. Madam Stamenic, apart from the way in which the soldiers spoke and

22 the red bands that they had on their heads, was there anything else that

23 made you be sure that they were Muslims? Did you recognise anyone among

24 those soldiers, for example?

25 A. No.

Page 6567

1 Q. The persons that you said were Muslim soldiers, were they alone?

2 Or together with a person not in uniform?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't received a translation. I heard the

4 witness say something, like "some" or something like that, but I haven't

5 received the interpretation.

6 Madam, could you repeat your answer, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you are

8 referring to civilians or only to soldiers.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No. The question was precisely the following:

10 Were the soldiers that you saw there accompanied by other people who did

11 not have the appearance of soldiers, I would imagine?

12 MR. DORIA: Yes. If you could answer that, yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So were they accompanied by civilians?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


16 Q. Among those civilians, did you recognise anyone which could be

17 from a Muslim ethnicity?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I haven't heard the answer. I saw the

19 witness nodding, but I did not hear her say yes or no. Witness, madam,

20 could you please answer the question again and speak into the microphone.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

23 MR. DORIA: Thank you very much.

24 Q. Madam Stamenic, you say that in January, 1993, there was an

25 attack. Can you, for the record, just for the record, state exactly when

Page 6568












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6569

1 was that the attack occurred, which day, if you have it?

2 A. On the 16th of January.

3 Q. Do you remember the time also?

4 A. It was in the morning.

5 Q. When the attack occurred, were you staying at home or outside your

6 home?

7 A. I was outside.

8 Q. What were you doing outside?

9 A. My mother and I were on our way to the cattle shed to tend to the

10 cattle.

11 Q. Madam Stamenic, when you say that an attack occurred, what do you

12 mean? Did you hear anything, something like a -- fighter jets bombing the

13 village, or rifle shots?

14 A. Shots.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But shots of what? I mean because this is

16 basically what the question was aiming at. Can you distinguish between

17 shots and shots? I mean, the question was whether this was rifle shots or

18 whether there were bombings. First of all let's you go there it one by

19 one.

20 Were there any planes flying at the time?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So you exclude categorically the dropping of bombs

23 or rockets from aircraft, do you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean "no"? In other words there were no

Page 6570

1 attacks from the air, is that correct, there was no attacks from the air?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So the attacks were from the ground?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And the attack consisted of shots, you said, just

6 shots?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only shots, shooting.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So no rockets? And no mortars, no mortar firings?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 MR. DORIA: Thank you very much, Madam Stamenic.

11 Q. When you heard the first rifle shots, as you're saying, what did

12 you do?

13 A. My mother and I started running.

14 Q. Where? You were running where, to which place?

15 A. Towards my grandmother's house.

16 Q. Were you able to reach your grandmother's house?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What happened then?

19 A. I was injured.

20 Q. Where were you injured?

21 A. In the left thigh bone.

22 Q. Did your mother help you with the wounding?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what happened thereafter?

25 A. She put me on her back and she dragged me all the way to my

Page 6571

1 grandmother's house.

2 Q. And did you reach your grandmother's house?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Why? What happened?

5 A. The soldiers caught up with us.

6 Q. How many soldiers, do you know?

7 A. There were a few of them.

8 Q. Madam Stamenic, from the morning when you heard the first shots,

9 rifle shots, and the wounding and the soldiers captured you, do you recall

10 how much time elapsed between these two phases, from the moment when you

11 hear the first shots until when you were captured, actually captured? Was

12 that a question of seconds? Or minutes? Hours?

13 A. Minutes.

14 Q. Do you think that the soldiers, the Muslim soldiers were

15 actually --


17 MR. JONES: Yes, perhaps my learned friend might finish the

18 question but I anticipate what he's going to say and I object. It's not

19 for her to speculate as to what the soldiers might -- might not have been

20 doing while she was getting wounded. He is about to call for speculation

21 on her part, it is clear.

22 MR. DORIA: Your Honour if she knows what was happening or she

23 thinks what might have been happening, I don't see why the question can't

24 be put.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Doria I would suggest you finish the question

Page 6572

1 because we haven't heard it as yet and then we will decide whether it is

2 the case of accepting your pre-announced objection, or not, Mr. Jones.

3 Could you tell us what your question is, Mr. Doria, please.


5 Q. Madam Stamenic, you say that there was a lapse of time of minutes

6 between the moment when you heard the shots, the first rifle shots of the

7 attack and the moment when you were captured, wounded and captured.

8 Do you think that the soldiers were far away from your house or

9 close to the place in which you were wounded and captured?

10 A.

11 MR. JONES: Which soldiers?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: This is perfectly legitimate. Which soldiers? The

13 ones --

14 MR. DORIA: I mean the ones that captured her, yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, in your opinion -- let me rephrase the

16 question myself. There was a moment when you were shot, followed by you

17 being carried over by your mother a short distance, followed by your

18 capture. In your assessment, were the persons who captured you very near

19 where you were ultimately shot and captured, or did they have to travel

20 quite a distance to capture you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I'm not sure that

22 they were close. I don't know.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: At least do give us an idea of, from the moment you

24 were shot to the moment you were captured, you already said that it was a

25 question of minutes, but would you be able to tell us approximately how

Page 6573

1 many minutes? A few minutes? Two, three minutes? Five minutes? How

2 long did your mother have to walk with you on her back before you were

3 captured?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some four or five minutes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That gives us more or less a good idea of where we

6 are. Yes. Thank you.

7 MR. DORIA: Thank you.

8 Q. Madam Stamenic, just for record, you say that you were injured.

9 What caused the injury into your thigh bone?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut it short. Were you shot? Did you have a

11 bullet wound that fractured your thigh bone?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next.


15 Q. Madam Stamenic, at the moment when you were shot, were you in

16 civilian clothes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you armed?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. The soldiers that captured you, where did they take

21 you?

22 A. You mean where I was captured?

23 Q. No. You say that when you were going, running into the direction

24 of your grandmother's house, the soldiers appeared and captured you.

25 Where did they take you, from there?

Page 6574

1 A. They took us to our house, the house where we lived.

2 Q. And did you find your house in the same state in which you left

3 it? Just the while, while you were going to the stable?

4 A. I could see the stable burning.

5 Q. All right. And when you came back to your house, in which state

6 did you find your house? Was it also burning?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you find anyone else, apart from the soldiers that captured

9 you, around your house?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you give us numbers, not specifically, but how many were those

12 soldiers there around your house, around your burning house.

13 A. Some 20 or so.

14 Q. Do you know which ethnicity were they? Do you think that they

15 were colleagues of those who captured you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you think that they were Muslim soldiers too?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you recognise anyone among them who you knew, who you knew

20 before the war as a Muslim?

21 A. I knew a woman.

22 Q. Who was this woman?

23 A. Djemila.

24 Q. Do you recognise anyone else among them?

25 A. No.

Page 6575

1 Q. After you reached your house, was your wounding dressed? Did you

2 get any help from whoever?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Apart from the house which was burning, did you see

5 anything else? Did you see people taking things from your house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What were they taking from your house?

8 A. Blankets, some buckets with cheese.

9 Q. Do you know who were the people taking things from your house?

10 A. Civilians.

11 Q. They were only civilians? Or also soldiers among them?

12 A. Some soldiers also went into the house and came out of it.

13 Q. When they went into the house and came out of it with things also?

14 You mean they were also taking thing from your house, is that what you --

15 MR. JONES: These questions are being put in a very leading way,

16 I'm afraid.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you Mr. Jones.

18 MR. JONES: I've been showing some restraint but if my learned

19 friend could simply ask her what she saw, what happened, rather than

20 putting words in her mouth.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I hate to interrupt you, but, at the end of

22 the day she has already told us.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Sorry about that. Yes. Could you ask less

25 direct questions, Mr. Doria, please.

Page 6576

1 MR. DORIA: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. The soldiers you say the soldiers were getting into your house and

3 coming out. Did you see anything? Why were they going into your house

4 and coming out?

5 A. No.

6 Q. The civilians that you saw going into your house and coming, why

7 were they going into your house and coming out?

8 MR. JONES: Again, is it really for this witness to speculate

9 about why people are doing things, about their motives? Again she

10 should -- she's said what she's seen, and I think my learned friend

11 should move on.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's a question of English more than

13 anything else, Mr. Jones. I can't go on doing this myself, can I? One

14 moment.

15 Mr. Doria, can you rephrase the question.

16 MR. DORIA: Yes, thank you; I will try Your Honour.

17 Q. Madam Stamenic, earlier you stated that you saw civilians taking

18 blankets and cheese from your house. My question was: Have you seen

19 soldiers also doing the same?

20 MR. JONES: That's a different question and that question has

21 already been put, and she said "no," and she's answered it. She said it

22 was only civilians then later he said, "Did you see anything else?" And

23 she said, "no." And now he was supposed to -- my learned friend was put

24 the previous question in a different way and he has gone back to an old

25 question.

Page 6577

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 Yes, Mr. Doria.

3 MR. DORIA: Your Honour, the witness said she saw soldiers getting

4 into her house and coming --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut it short. Madam Stamenic, you've told us

6 that you saw civilians in your house and you saw soldiers in your house.

7 They both came in and went out. Who did you actually see taking things

8 out of your house?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The civilians.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't want to tell you straight away Mr. Jones is

11 right, but I knew he was right.

12 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Madam Stamenic, in your statement, you also say that you saw,

14 among the soldiers, a postman, that you recognised as being a Muslim

15 postman.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because again we can't go on -- we can't

17 proceed along these lines.

18 MR. DORIA: May I rephrase the question?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.


21 Q. Madam Stamenic --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, of course, you have suggested to the witness

23 what she has already stated in the -- in her statement.

24 MR. JONES: She was asked whether she recognised anyone else among

25 the civilians, and she said, "no, apart from Djemila," it doesn't seem

Page 6578

1 that she needs to have has her -- her memory refreshed.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: She can refresh her memory, of course, by reference

3 to her statement. But he has to do that first, in the orthodox,

4 traditional way.

5 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour. I will please move on.

6 Q. Madam Stamenic, from the moment when you came into your house or

7 you were captured and came into your house, you say that you saw people

8 going around and taking things from your house.

9 Did you notice anything else happening, apart from what was closer

10 to your house?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You said earlier that you also saw your stable burning, is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you notice anything else about your stable burning?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you say that around 6.00 the attack

18 occurred and then thereafter you went to your house. What happened

19 thereafter?

20 A. When? When do you mean?

21 Q. When the soldiers captured you, they took you to your house. And

22 then what happened after that? What did they do with you?

23 A. They put me on an ox cart.

24 Q. And then what happened? Did they take you to another place? Or

25 you stayed all the time in front of your house burning?

Page 6579

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They took me off, yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. You were injured. I take it that you

4 were also bleeding?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Was your injury addressed at any time, at this

7 stage?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria.

10 MR. DORIA: Thank you.

11 Q. Did the soldiers take you to anyone -- anywhere else?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Which place?

14 A. They said they were taking us to Srebrenica.

15 Q. Now, from the time when you were captured until the moment when

16 you were taken in the direction of Srebrenica, do you recall how long --

17 how much time elapsed in between the two moments? When were you taken to

18 Srebrenica? At what time?

19 A. Well, sometime around noon. I'm not quite sure.

20 Q. During the time when you were waiting in front of your house, did

21 you see -- what were the soldiers doing? Were they sitting in front of

22 you looking at you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What were they doing? The soldiers and civilians, were they all

25 there? What were they doing?

Page 6580

1 A. The soldiers were moving about and so were the civilians.

2 Q. They were just moving?

3 A. They were loading up things from the house, up on to the ox cart.

4 Q. Which houses? In whose houses were those?

5 A. Our house.

6 Q. They were looting things only from your house or from other

7 places?

8 A. I didn't see them do it from the other houses.

9 Q. All right. Madam Stamenic, do you recall them offering you any

10 payment for the things that they loot from your house?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you recall them giving you a receipt for the

13 things that they took from your house? Or promised that they will pay you

14 later?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Madam Stamenic, did you ask them to go and take things from your

17 house?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you say that you were taken to

20 Srebrenica. First of all, who told you that they were -- you were going

21 to be taken to Srebrenica, and for what reasons?

22 A. Djemila, the woman told me.

23 Q. Did she also tell you why you were being taken to Srebrenica?

24 A. For an exchange.

25 Q. So she told you that you were going to be prisoners and being

Page 6581

1 exchanged later, is that what you're saying?

2 MR. JONES: He didn't say prisoners. Again, my learned friend

3 keeps putting words in her mouth. He can simply ask, "What was said?"

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained, yes.

5 MR. DORIA: Okay, I will rephrase. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can pass to the next question,

7 Mr. Doria.


9 Q. Madam Stamenic, on your way to -- first of all, on your way to

10 Srebrenica, did you see anything happening on your way to Srebrenica? Did

11 you pass across any other Serb villages?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see anything happening on your way to Srebrenica?

14 A. Well, I saw houses that had been burnt.

15 Q. Do you recall in which places?

16 A. Brezani.

17 Q. All right. Did you see anything else, there and in other places?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. Thank you, Madam Stamenic. When you were taken to

20 Srebrenica, do you recall how you were taken there? Was that that you

21 were walking yourself? Or you were put on a -- on a transportation means?

22 A. On the cart or --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness specify whether she means

24 vehicle?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you hear the interpreter? I want to make sure

Page 6582












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6583

1 that you did so that you can phrase the question.

2 MR. DORIA: Yes, yes. Thank you.

3 Q. Madam Stamenic, you mean that you were not walking by yourself.

4 You were put on a -- was that a vehicle?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Phrase it differently. What kind of a cart? What

6 kind of a cart?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't go on foot.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: What kind of a cart were you transported in?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ox cart. On an ox cart.

10 MR. DORIA: Thank you.

11 Q. Were you alone on this cart?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You mean that there were no other persons in the cart?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you recall anything else on that cart? Being put in that cart,

16 carried in that cart? Was it an empty cart?

17 A. Well, there were blankets and other things.

18 Q. You mean the looting was inside the cart, is that --

19 MR. JONES: Your Honour --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You don't need to continue, Mr. Jones.

21 You can't use the word "looting" that's for us to decide later on,

22 Mr. Doria.

23 MR. DORIA: Thank you, thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you please ask her what happened to her mother

25 in the meantime. Where was her mother?

Page 6584


2 Q. Madam Stamenic, what happened to your mother? Was she together

3 with you?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So when -- because I want to make sure that there is

6 no problem in either interpretation or anything. Earlier on Mr. Doria

7 asked you whether you were alone in the cart and you said, "more than

8 once." Actually, you confirmed that you were alone in the cart. Do you

9 mean to say that your mother was not with you in the cart? Or was she

10 with you in the cart, on the cart, anyway.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, she wasn't sitting with me in

12 the cart. She walked along by the cart.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine. So that explains it. Yes, Mr. Doria. You

14 may proceed.


16 Q. Madam Stamenic, on your way to Srebrenica, who was following you?

17 Was anyone following among those who captured you? Or you were meant --

18 you were made to go to Srebrenica alone?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is confusing, Mr. Doria. One moment. Please be

20 patient.

21 MR. DORIA: Maybe I will rephrase it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. Thank you.


24 Q. Madam Stamenic, were you escorted to Srebrenica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6585

1 Q. Do you know by whom?

2 A. The soldiers.

3 Q. Thank you. When did you arrive in Srebrenica?

4 A. On Sunday.

5 Q. Do you recall if, on your way to Srebrenica, you were escorted by

6 the same soldiers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. You say that you arrived in Srebrenica on Sunday. Do

9 you recall which day was that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that the same day or the next day? The attack occurred on the

12 16th of January.

13 A. The next day.

14 Q. Do you recall at what time did you arrive in Srebrenica?

15 A. About 11.00.

16 Q. All right. Madam Stamenic, do you recall if, on your way to

17 Srebrenica, anyone else either from your village or other village was

18 together with you? Did you meet anyone else who went together with you to

19 Srebrenica, on your way to Srebrenica?

20 A. No.

21 Q. On all of your way to Srebrenica, you were only you and your

22 mother, the civilians, Serb civilians?

23 A. Not civilians.

24 Q. No, I mean only you and your mother. No one else.

25 A. Yes, that's right, yes.

Page 6586

1 Q. Thank you. When you arrived in Srebrenica, to which place were

2 you taken in Srebrenica? Do you remember?

3 A. To the hospital.

4 Q. And your mother?

5 A. To the police.

6 Q. So your mother was taken to the police and you to the Srebrenica,

7 to the Srebrenica hospital, is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you treated in the -- at the hospital, Srebrenica hospital?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Anything else happened while you were staying at Srebrenica

12 hospital?

13 A. A soldier hit me with his -- kicked me with his foot.

14 Q. Why he would do that? Do you know?

15 A. Well, next to me there was a dead soldier lying.

16 Q. Now, when he kicked you, did he say anything to you?

17 A. He swore.

18 Q. Do you know --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems that there is

21 a technical problem, because we cannot hear the voice of the witness. We

22 don't hear the witness's answer, and we haven't been for three minutes

23 now.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. I wouldn't be able to guess that. So thank

25 you for pointing that out, Madam Vidovic. The technicians have heard you.

Page 6587

1 So let's proceed and see whether the problem still exists, or whether it

2 is solved or can be solved. And if it is not solved, then we obviously

3 have to stop until it is solved, because you have every right to hear her

4 answers in your own language.

5 So, Madam, you were telling us that you were taken to the hospital

6 in Srebrenica and that while you were there you were hit or kicked by a

7 soldier, and that you were lying next to a dead soldier, and -- when this

8 happened. And that when he kicked you this other soldier swore. I

9 think -- do you confirm this, to start with?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard her, so I take it that you have heard her as

12 well? All right.

13 I'm not going to ask you any further questions myself on this.

14 It's up to you, Mr. Doria, to see whether it is the case of elaborating a

15 little bit or whether to move to the next question.


17 Q. Madam Stamenic, when you say that the soldier swore to you, what

18 do you mean by this?

19 A. Well, he used bad language. He said that I had been carrying

20 a rifle and that I had killed that soldier.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's not swearing.

22 MR. DORIA: Thank you.

23 Q. Madam Stamenic, could you give an explanation to the contradiction

24 between what you said earlier and the -- using the word "swearing" and

25 later saying that actually the soldier accused you of being, carrying a

Page 6588

1 rifle and killing the soldier next to you?

2 A. Well, he swore. He used some words. I don't remember the words.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine. Let's move to the next question, Mr. Doria.

4 MR. DORIA: Thank you.

5 Q. You said that you were treated at the hospital. What kind of

6 treatment did you get in the hospital, at the hospital?

7 A. My wound was cleaned and dressed.

8 Q. Anything else?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know who did that to you, who cleaned your -- your -- and

11 dressed your wounding? Was this a doctor? A nurse?

12 A. A nurse.

13 Q. Madam Stamenic, after being dressed, after your wound was dressed,

14 where did you go after that?

15 A. To the police station.

16 Q. So you went back to the police station?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you went back to the police station -- when you came to the

19 hospital and went back to the police station, do you recall if you were

20 alone or someone else following you or company escorting you?

21 A. Escorted.

22 Q. Do you know who was escorting you?

23 A. The soldiers.

24 Q. Do you know if they were the same soldiers that took you --

25 captured you in the village of Kusici and took you to Srebrenica?

Page 6589

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you mean these were the same soldiers?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Madam Stamenic, you said earlier that in the cart in which you

5 were put that there were also some blankets and some other things there.

6 Do you recall -- can you recall if those things were still there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. You were taken to -- back to the police station and

9 what happened thereafter?

10 A. They took my mother out of the police station.

11 Q. Were you taken also into the police station, inside the police

12 station?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. You met your mother outside the police station. And what

15 happened thereafter?

16 A. They took us off up there.

17 Q. They took you to where? First of all, when you say "they took

18 us," who you are talking about?

19 A. The soldiers.

20 Q. You mean the same soldiers that were escorting you all the time?

21 A. THE INTERPRETER: There was no sound coming through.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you repeat your question, please,

23 Mr. Doria, because there is a technical problem with the sound, it seems.


25 Q. You were referring to "they took us" and I wanted to know,

Page 6590

1 Madam Stamenic, whether this "they", you said the soldiers, were the same

2 soldiers that were escorting you all the time from Kusici until

3 Srebrenica.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. DORIA: Your Honour, if we could have a break perhaps at this

7 stage.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Stamenic, we are going to have a

9 25-minute break now and we will come back soon after that. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The accused is here. Again, I wish to draw

13 your attention to the interpretation. If there are any problems at any

14 time, please tell us straight away so that we address those, address them

15 straight away.

16 Yes, Mr. Doria, please.


18 Q. Madam Stamenic, just for the record, could you state, again, your

19 full name, please.

20 A. Stana Stamenic.

21 Q. Again for the record, could you state the full name of your

22 mother, please.

23 A. Milena Mitrovic.

24 Q. Do you know how old was she at the time of the events in 1993?

25 A. She was in her 40s.

Page 6591

1 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, I would like to take you back to the

2 events in January, 1993, specifically at the time when the attacks started

3 again. You testified having seen civilians together with the soldiers in

4 front of your house. Is that true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you also testified having seen those civilians going into your

7 house and taking blankets. Is that true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you recall seeing those civilians taking other

10 items, apart from blankets, from your house?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you, Madam Stamenic, describe a picture of what was

13 happening for the Trial Chamber, please. What were the items?

14 A. Buckets with cheese.

15 Q. Any other items? Please give a picture, a general picture of what

16 was happening.

17 A. No.

18 Q. So you just saw them taking blankets and cans of cheese, is that

19 what you're saying?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

21 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I'm just wondering how many times

22 my learned friend is going to ask this question. She answered very

23 clearly twice and the last question any other items and she said "no," and

24 if he keeps putting this question it's going to be clear to the witness he

25 wants her to mention other items. In my submission she has given at least

Page 6592

1 clear answers to this question and my learned friend should move on.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Doria, perhaps you can ask the third and

3 final, for the third and final time whether there was anything else and

4 leave it at that and proceed to your next question immediately after,

5 please, if you have a confirmation that there was nothing else being taken

6 out of the residence.

7 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Madam Stamenic, I would please ask you to be -- you may speak

9 calmly and freely and give a picture of what was happening to the Trial

10 Chamber. That would be very helpful. Thank you.

11 Again, have you seen any other items being taken from your house,

12 apart from those that you mentioned?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you said that those civilians were

15 taking things from your house. Do you know which ethnicity were they?

16 A. They were Muslims.

17 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, do you recall having given a statement

18 to the Office of the Prosecutor in May 2000?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall having read that statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall having agreed to that statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. DORIA: Your Honour if I may be allowed to refresh the memory

25 of the witness on one particular point in the statement.

Page 6593

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Yes, two points, really, Your Honour. Firstly think

3 the witness should be asked whether she thinks it would assist her to see

4 her prior statement, because without that there is no need to refresh her

5 memory.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We also need to see whether she has it available.

7 MR. JONES: That's the second point.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I imagined you would raise that. Let's clear

9 this last point first and foremost. I would like to know whether the

10 copy of the witness's alleged statement is available to her in the room

11 where she is giving testimony now. Well it's -- I need an answer either

12 from the witness herself or from the registrar representative.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we don't have a copy of the

14 testimony.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I took it that they don't have a copy. Is that

16 correct? Because I heard "nema, nema," so what I suggest is that if you

17 are going to refresh the witness's memory with regard to particular

18 issues, then you read no read slowly because the interpreters have to

19 interpret.

20 MR. DORIA: Yes, Your Honour. This is what I wanted to do.

21 MR. JONES: But, Your Honour, without the witness actually seeing

22 her signature, or purported signature on the statement without being able

23 to follow in Bosnian --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's a question of cross-examination

25 later on.

Page 6594

1 MR. JONES: In fairness to the witness, how does she know those

2 are her words?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I'm saying this is ultimately a question

4 of cross-examination. At this point in time I can assure you I'm not

5 going to put any questions myself, especially since the statement is not

6 there. And that's ...

7 It's Mr. Doria's problem, actually. Neither yours nor ours at

8 this point in time.

9 MR. JONES: But it's simply to note that the witness is going to

10 have to take Mr. Doria's word for it, that this is what is recorded.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, if she is prepared to do it. This is why

12 I'm saying, actually, it is Mr. Doria's problem and not really yours or

13 ours.

14 MR. JONES: Thank you, I'm obliged, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria. One moment. One moment. Yes, you

16 may proceed, Mr. Doria. You may refresh the witness's memory by reference

17 to what you allege to be her statement.

18 MR. JONES: Sorry, finally, could he simply ask the witness if she

19 thinks it would help to refresh her memory to see her statement because it

20 may be she has a perfectly clear recollection and doesn't feel it would

21 assist her at all.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That is a perfectly valid point, too. Perhaps

23 you could start with putting that question first to the witness.

24 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Just proceed along these lines. Ask her whether you

Page 6595

1 are right in submitting that she made a statement or that she was

2 interviewed and her statement allegedly reduced in writing, whether she

3 had signed that statement, the date of that statement, and whether she

4 would like parts of that statement read out to her to refresh her memory,

5 particularly in areas where you think she needs her memory to be

6 refreshed. I'm not saying that that is the case, but this is the order in

7 which you need to proceed. Thank you.

8 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you remember having signed the statement that

10 you read?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Madam Stamenic, I would like to refresh your memory on one

13 particular point from that statement. Do you think that that would be

14 helpful for you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, in that statement, you mentioned, in

17 particular, the following: "When I was brought near my house that was

18 burning, there were about 100 soldiers in total. Out of them I identified

19 the local postman, Ismet, and a Muslim woman who was a friend of my family

20 by the name of Djemila."

21 Do you remember having said that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Madam Stamenic, do you know if the postman

24 was a Muslim?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6596












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6597

1 Q. Do you know if the postman was -- how was he dressed, the postman?

2 A. In civilian clothes.

3 Q. Thank you. Do you know if apart from the postman there were other

4 civilians?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Male civilians, too?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you know if those civilians -- do you know the

9 ethnicity of those civilians?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you testified that in the village of

12 Kusici, and the surrounding hamlets, there were a number of households.

13 Do you remember if, at the time of the attack, there were other Serb

14 villagers [Realtime transcript read in error "villages"] in that village?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I agree. The transcript, it is neither

17 your fault, Mr. Doria, nor the witness, actually. It's -- neither your

18 fault nor the witness, but we need to clear this because as it is the

19 transcript says, reports your question as being "do you remember if, at

20 the time of the attack, there were other Serb villages in that village".

21 So I suggest that you rephrase or repeat your question and then the

22 witness would be asked to answer it.


24 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you remember if, during the attack, there were

25 other people, other Serbs in that village, apart from you and your mom?

Page 6598

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you know if those Serb villagers, which were

3 together with you, were also taken -- captured by the Muslim soldiers?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Have you seen any other Serb villagers being captured at that

6 time, that day?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you state -- testified that you saw

9 your stable burning. Do you know if you had any animals in that stable?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You don't know if, in your stable, you had any animals?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. JONES: Sorry, I think, to clarify that. I mean really the

14 follow up question should have been: "Is it that you don't know there

15 weren't any animals in the stable." And still -- from the next answer

16 it's still unclear.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I agree with you, Mr. Jones.

18 MR. DORIA: Thank you.

19 Q. Madam Stamenic, were there animals in the stable?

20 A. There were two cows, but that was before the stable was set on

21 fire.

22 Q. Do you know what happened to those cows thereafter?

23 A. I saw them in the meadow over there.

24 Q. Did you have any other animals apart from the cows?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6599

1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber which were those animals?

2 A. Pigs.

3 Q. Do you know what happened to them?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you testified that in the cart on

6 which you were taken to Srebrenica, there were put some items, like

7 blankets and some other items. Do you know if the soldiers, the Muslim

8 soldiers also were putting those items into the cart?

9 MR. JONES: Your Honour --


11 MR. JONES: Firstly, I think she only mentioned blankets. I would

12 have to check whether she mentioned some other items. But secondly it is

13 a very leading question. He should -- she should simply be asked does she

14 know where the blankets came from or something of that nature rather than

15 suggesting to her that soldiers were loading up the carts with blankets,

16 which is obviously where he wants to get to.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: She did mention buckets of cheese.

18 MR. JONES: Being taken from her house, but not necessarily on the

19 cart.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. But that's because you said you want to

21 check something. I mean, she did mention buckets of cheese. I don't

22 recall her mentioning anything else that I can remember, but ...

23 Anyway, you got the point, Mr. Doria?

24 MR. DORIA: I got the point and I will try to rephrase the

25 question.

Page 6600

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Thank you.


3 Q. Madam Stamenic, you testified that you saw blankets and buckets of

4 cheese being taken out of your house. You also testified that you saw

5 those items in the cart that took you to Srebrenica.

6 A. I saw blankets, but I don't know whether those were the same ones

7 that had been taken out of my house.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you know who put those blankets into your cart?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you said that together with the

11 soldiers were civilians, and that the soldiers escorted you to Srebrenica.

12 Do you know if those civilians also escorted you to Srebrenica?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: She answered this question before, because you had

15 asked her a specific question on this. Let's move, Mr. Doria, because we

16 are repeating. I'm going through a phase which I thought we had already

17 passed, but anyway, let's proceed, please.


19 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you know if those civilians were carrying

20 weapons?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Thank you, Madam Stamenic. Madam Stamenic, you say

23 that when you came -- when you arrived in Srebrenica, your mother was

24 taken to a police station. How do you know that it was a police station?

25 A. That is what it said on the door.

Page 6601

1 Q. All right. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you also testified that at

2 the hospital a soldier kicked you. Do you know which ethnicity was that

3 soldier who kicked you at the hospital?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Madam Stamenic, you testified that the soldier, when he kicked

6 you, he told you something like: You have killed the Muslim which was

7 lying close to you. Is that correct?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I mean, I hate to interrupt you, Mr. Doria

9 and it's not my style to do so. But this question was put to her already

10 and she has answered the question so it is not a case of refreshing her

11 memory. She has also told us where -- who was lying dead next to her, and

12 what -- that this other man swore at her, and accused her of -- she has

13 already stated all of this.

14 MR. JONES: Yes. She also said nothing about Muslim soldier. She

15 said "dead soldier."

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question was what was the ethnicity of the

17 dead soldier, what was the ethnicity of the other person -- soldier that

18 kicked her, that is perfectly legitimate at this stage, but not other

19 questions because we have already covered those. Otherwise we will be

20 here with this witness for the next two days.

21 MR. JONES: If I might make a brief observation on that -- that

22 point. I need an hour and a half with this witness, and at this rate she

23 will have to come back tomorrow.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: She's -- she is -- I don't -- again, it's not our

25 problem, Mr. Jones.

Page 6602

1 MR. JONES: No. But one other point on that, is that clearly my

2 learned friend is trying to get her to accept that the soldier was Muslim

3 by reference to a dead soldier being a Muslim and, in my submission, that

4 is inappropriate. She said she doesn't know the ethnicity and he should

5 move on.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it is as inappropriate as you put it,

7 Mr. Jones. But, Mr. Doria, please go straight to the point, put the

8 questions you need to put without repeating aspects of the events that we

9 have already covered.

10 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted to make sure

11 that it was clear for the Trial Chamber because earlier the witness

12 testified that when she was kicked and the person said that he kicked the

13 Muslim [sic] close to her, and now when I ask her about the ethnicity, she

14 said she didn't know what the ethnicity was of that soldier.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Ask her about the ethnicity, but don't try to rub it

16 in. We are following what the witness is saying. I mean we are not

17 asleep.

18 MR. DORIA: Thank you Your Honour.

19 Q. Madam Stamenic, let's move on to the next question.

20 Madam Stamenic, you say that when you arrived back to the police station,

21 you met your mother there. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also testified that soldiers escorted you from there to

24 another place. And I asked you if those were the same soldiers who were

25 escorting you from the village of Kusici until Srebrenica. Can you

Page 6603

1 confirm that?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: She has already confirmed it, Mr. Doria. I mean,

3 she -- if you go back to your transcript you will find the same question

4 and the answer that they were.

5 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour I will move to the next.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we should move to see what was her state --

7 how her state at the police station could be described, who was there, and

8 move forward, because otherwise we are going backwards instead of

9 forwards.

10 MR. DORIA: Thank you.

11 Q. Madam Stamenic, did you notice anything at the police station?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I mean, anything such as what? What do you

13 mean to ask the question to the witness? And are you referring to how

14 many windows there were? Whether it was clean? Whether it was not clean?

15 Who was there? What they were doing? What was -- where was ...

16 Just go straight to the point. I mean after all, what is relevant

17 to the case is what happened there. And who was responsible, if at all,

18 to what happened there. I mean, the rest is irrelevant.

19 MR. DORIA: Thank you, let's move. Thank you Your Honour.

20 Q. Madam Stamenic, you say you met at the police station your mother

21 much. Then you were taken somewhere. Can you tell the Trial Chamber to

22 which place you were taken.

23 A. We were taken to the prison where we spent three weeks.

24 Q. Madam Stamenic, when you say that you were taken to the prison,

25 can you describe what was this? Do you mean that it was a private house,

Page 6604

1 or it was a public building? Or something else?

2 A. There were bars on the windows.

3 Q. All right. Were you taken to a room in that -- in that building?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know if that prison that you are saying, was -- was it

6 close to the police station? Where was it? Do you know where was it

7 located?

8 A. Well, we didn't spend too much time getting there from the police

9 station.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you find anyone else in the room in which you were

11 put?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. The persons that you found in the room in where you

14 were put, were they males or women?

15 A. Women.

16 Q. Were you aware of any male prisoners in that building?

17 A. Not then, no.

18 Q. You mean the male prisoners were not in the same room in which you

19 were?

20 MR. JONES: That's not --

21 MR. DORIA: Let me rephrase.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, fine.


24 Q. Madam Stamenic, could you clarify your answer, please.

25 A. There weren't any men, just women.

Page 6605

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't need clarification, if she tells you

2 there were no men, there were no men.


4 Q. Thank you.

5 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you know if there were any male prisoners

6 generally in the building? Not in the room in which you were put.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You put this question already. If you look at line

8 7, of page -- on page 47, where were you aware of any male prisoners in

9 that building. The answer was "not then, no."

10 Then, "You mean the male prisoners were not in the same room in

11 which you were?" And then there was the objection. Then was, "Let me

12 rephrase." Okay. Fine.

13 "Could you clarify your answer." "There weren't any men, just

14 women." So it doesn't need ...

15 MR. DORIA: Your Honour I think that she has in mind the room in

16 which she was, that's why I want to clarify --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: When you say that there were -- madam, when you say

18 that there were "no men," "no males,", do you mean to say in the room

19 where you and your mother were being kept? Or in the entire building of

20 the prison?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They weren't in the room where my

22 mother and I were kept.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: But in the rest of the building, were you aware of

24 the presence of males? I saw her say "da," but I didn't hear her say

25 "da." Can you repeat your answer, please.

Page 6606

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat your answer again, please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know then when they brought

4 us there.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


7 Q. Madam Stamenic, when did you find out that there were male

8 prisoners?

9 A. Over the next few days.

10 Q. Thank you, Madam. Madam Stamenic, I would like you to give a

11 picture of the room in which you were placed. Do you know how many women

12 were together with you in that room?

13 A. There were several.

14 Q. Can you give any specific numbers?

15 A. About ten.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you give any names?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Madam Stamenic, could you describe the room in which you were put.

19 A. There were two windows with bars on them. The door was metal.

20 There was a big bench.

21 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, do you know if the women that were in

22 the cell in which you were put, were they of which ethnicity?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know which ethnicity were they? Were they Muslim or Serbs?

25 A. Serbs.

Page 6607

1 Q. Do you know how did they appear? Do you know how did they appear

2 like, were they like --

3 MR. JONES: Sorry, I'm going to stop there because I anticipate my

4 learned friend is going to suggest how they might have appeared. Why

5 don't we just let the witness answer how they appeared.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Also let Mr. Doria finish his question too.

7 Let's hear your question first before we authorise the witness to answer

8 it.


10 Q. Do you know how they appeared like, Madam Stamenic?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Again it's a question that can be answered in

12 various ways. It depends on what --

13 MR. DORIA: That's why I want to make the question --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But then put a more specific question, without

15 it being a leading question.


17 Q. Madam Stamenic, can you comment on what sort of women were they?

18 Were they local prison women or ...

19 How was their physical appearance?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them one by one. First of all, who was

21 with you in the cell, let's take this series of questions one after the

22 other. Who was with you in the cell? Or in this room where you were

23 being kept?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was my mother.


Page 6608

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there was Dostana, Andja, and

2 another woman from Kravica, I don't remember her name, then there was

3 Zivana and her daughter and a small boy. His name was Branko.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, do you know the ethnicity of each an

5 every one of these persons who were with you in this room?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Were they all of the same ethnicity?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And what was that ethnicity?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all Serbian.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from your mother, did you know any of them

12 from before?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So how can you explain to us how you came to know

15 that -- or how you can confirm that they were all of Serbian ethnicity?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They told me their names.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So are you telling us that they were Serbian, of

18 Serbian ethnicity because of the Serbian names that they had? Or was

19 there any other reason for you confirming that they were of Serbian

20 ethnicity?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of their names, yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, how were they dressed?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were dressed in civilian

24 clothing.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And what was their general condition of health?

Page 6609

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't remember that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Back to you, Mr. Doria.

3 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Madam Stamenic. Thank you, Your Honour;

4 thank you, Madam Stamenic.

5 Q. Can you give a further picture of the conditions inside the

6 women's cell. You say that you were brought to Srebrenica on the 17th of

7 January, 1993. Was it cold at that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have any sort of heating in the room in which you were

10 placed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What sort of heating you had in the cell?

13 A. Well, there was a wood stove, a wood-burning stove.

14 Q. Do you mean a stove used with firewood?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How often did you get firewood, and who brought it to you?

17 A. We didn't get it often.

18 Q. Do you know who used to bring the firewood to you, in those period

19 in which you got them?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you explain better, please, to the Trial Chamber. Who used to

22 bring the firewood to you?

23 A. Well, it was brought by a man whom I knew; his name was Ilija.

24 Q. Do you know his family name?

25 A. Ivanovic?

Page 6610












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6611

1 Q. Thank you. Do you recall anyone else coming to bring you the

2 firewood?

3 A. Two other men.

4 Q. Thank you. We will come back to those males later. Did you have

5 any blankets?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Do you know if the other women also had blankets?

8 A. Yes, they did. Later on they were brought blankets.

9 Q. Do you know how many?

10 A. No, I don't remember.

11 Q. Do you know if -- well, let's put it another way.

12 Where were you sleeping during your time in the room?

13 A. On the stretcher.

14 Q. And do you know where was sleeping the other women in the cell?

15 A. On the bench, roundabout.

16 Q. Do you know if they had -- do you know if all the women were on

17 that bench, how big was the bench? You said there were around ten women

18 in the cell.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And where we're all of those women, ten women, sleeping on that

21 bench?

22 A. No. They couldn't fit on the bench, all of them.

23 Q. So where were they sleeping, the others who couldn't fit on that

24 bench?

25 A. My mother was next to me, my stretcher.

Page 6612

1 Q. Do you mean on the floor close to your stretcher, is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have any other bedding, apart from the -- like mattress or

4 pillows or whatever?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, can you recall if you ever were fed

7 during your stay in that cell? Did you get food and water?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How often did you get food? What sort of food you get?

10 A. Once a day. Sometimes soup, or a thicker soup, or a small piece

11 of bread.

12 Q. How big was the piece of bread, do you remember?

13 A. Well, like an ordinary box of cigarettes.

14 Q. Were you given enough water to drink?

15 A. They brought us water in a bottle.

16 Q. Was that enough for you?

17 A. It depended.

18 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, do you know if there was any toilet

19 close to your cell or in your cell?

20 A. Not in the cell.

21 Q. Where was it?

22 A. Across.

23 Q. Were you ever taken there?

24 A. Yes, both -- the women, but not me.

25 Q. Where did you relieve yourself?

Page 6613

1 A. There was a bucket in the corner and that's where.

2 Q. Were the other women allowed to go to the toilet?

3 A. Yes, when they would let them go.

4 Q. How often were they allowed to go?

5 A. Maybe in the morning and the evening, but rarely. Infrequently.

6 Q. Was it possible for them to go in other periods of time when they

7 needed it?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Madam Stamenic, when you say that "when they were allowed to go,"

10 who do you mean by "when they allowed them to go"? Who was allowing them

11 to go?

12 A. The guards at the door.

13 Q. Do you know who were the guards?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you know which ethnicity were the guards?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat whether she said yes or

17 no.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam, could you repeat your answer, please,

19 because the interpreters couldn't hear you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


22 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you know if the guards, that you're saying the

23 guards, were in uniform? Or in civilian clothes?

24 A. Uniform.

25 Q. Do you know the colour of these uniform?

Page 6614

1 A. Camouflage uniform.

2 Q. Do you know if the uniform, the camouflage uniform, was the same

3 as the one of those soldiers who escorted you to Srebrenica? Was that of

4 the same sort?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I mean, was it also of the same sort of the

7 camouflage uniforms that the Serb soldiers used to wear? Could you

8 distinguish between the two?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What was the difference?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our soldiers wore green uniforms.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But when they -- you also told me earlier on

13 that sometimes they wore camouflage uniforms as well.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And would there be a difference between the

16 camouflage uniforms that the Serbian soldiers would wear and the

17 camouflage uniforms that these people that were guarding the room were

18 wearing? Or would the camouflage uniforms be exactly the same?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police wore blue, blue uniforms.

20 But in a pattern, like camouflage. Whereas the other ones were green

21 camouflage and these were blue camouflage.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Doria.


24 Q. Thank you, Madam Stamenic. Madam Stamenic, did the guards

25 mistreat the women in the cell?

Page 6615

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did they threaten them?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did the guards ever enter the women's cell?

5 A. Yes. They would bring in water.

6 Q. At the time when they would come and bring the water, that was the

7 only time when they would enter your cell?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Apart from the guards, do you know if any other soldiers would

10 come into the women's cell?

11 MR. JONES: He just -- soldiers, they're guards not soldier.

12 A. Yes, exactly; you can't use the word soldiers in your question,

13 Mr. Doria. Use any other word -- apart from these guards, would anyone

14 else enter the room? Did anyone else enter the room in which you were

15 being kept?

16 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Madam Stamenic, you heard the question of His Honour. Did anyone

18 else, apart from those guards, enter your cell?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you tell us who, please, if you can.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A nurse came to dress my wound.


23 Q. Yes. Apart from the nurse who came to dress your wound, anyone

24 else came --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's also important -- one moment. I'm

Page 6616

1 sorry to interrupt you with -- if that is the case, a nurse came to dress

2 her wounds, how often this happened.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once while I was there.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And how long after your arrival in the

5 prison did this nurse come to dress your wound?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A week, roughly.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And did you -- was this in response to your specific

8 asking for a nurse to dress your wound? Or was it done without you asking

9 for attention?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't ask for it, no.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Doria.

12 MR. DORIA: Thank you.

13 Q. Apart from the nurse who came in your cell and the guards, did

14 anyone else come to your cell?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were these persons in military uniform?

17 MR. JONES: Or not.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if she knows who they are first and then

19 you ask the question of what they were wearing.


21 Q. Do you know who were those persons who came into your cell?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber who were they?

24 A. There was a man, he introduced himself as being called Zulfo.

25 Q. What did he say?

Page 6617

1 A. He came and asked whether anybody was perhaps mistreating us.

2 Q. And what did you answer to him?

3 A. We said we weren't being mistreated.

4 Q. This is Zulfo. Did he come in daylight or at night, in the

5 evening?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 Q. Do you know if he was able to see that you were lying on that

8 stretcher, wounded?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he offer help to you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you. Apart from Zulfo, did you see anyone else coming

13 into --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. This visit by this man who described

15 himself as being Zulfo occur before the nurse came to dress your wounds or

16 after, if you can remember.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria.


20 Q. Can you describe how this Zulfo looked like?

21 A. He had a beard.

22 Q. How tall he was?

23 A. Not very tall.

24 Q. Was he in civilian clothes or military?

25 A. I can't remember.

Page 6618

1 Q. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And before you move. What was his age, most likely?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Middle aged.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 MR. DORIA: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Do you remember if he was big? Round? Did he have a moustache?

7 A. He was a bit tall.

8 Q. Thank you. Anyone else came into your cell, apart from Zulfo?

9 A. Another man came and he introduced himself as Naser Oric.

10 Q. What did he say else, apart from introducing himself?

11 A. He asked us if we received any food.

12 Q. And what was your answer?

13 A. We told him how much we got.

14 Q. Could you describe this person who presented himself as Naser

15 Oric.

16 A. He was a somewhat younger man.

17 Q. Thank you. And was this person who presented himself as Naser

18 Oric able to see you in that stretcher wounded?

19 MR. JONES: The question was put that way last time as well. I

20 wasn't very comfortable it. Surely the question is if she was in this --

21 on this stretcher at the time, which presumably she was, and then one can

22 draw one's own conclusions as to what he saw because she doesn't know

23 what -- or any other person sees or notices. It's a small point, but I

24 think it needs to be made.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I perfectly agree with you, Mr. Jones.

Page 6619

1 MR. DORIA: Let me rephrase the question, please.

2 Q. Could this person who presented himself as Naser Oric, able to see

3 you on that stretcher?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You've put it exactly in the same way.

5 When this person who according to you presented himself --

6 introduced himself as Naser Oric came into your room, where were you at

7 the time? Were you lying on your stretcher?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware whether -- if he saw you there or not?

10 Do you know if he saw you there?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Back to you, Mr. Doria.


14 Q. Did he say anything to you?

15 A. Yes. He approached me and asked me why I was on this stretcher.

16 Q. And what did you answer?

17 A. I told him I was wounded.

18 Q. What was his reaction?

19 A. He didn't say anything.

20 Q. Thank you. Could you --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Doria, perhaps you could ask the witness

22 whether, in relation to the visit by the nurse, whether this visit by the

23 man she says introduced himself as Naser Oric, whether this was before or

24 after the visit of the nurse or by the nurse.

25 MR. DORIA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

Page 6620

1 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you recall when this person, who presented

2 himself as Naser Oric, came into your cell, from the time when you were

3 put in the cell.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did this person, who presented himself as Naser Oric, offer you

6 any help?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know if he came before or after the nurse?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. Apart from the three persons that you mentioned, was

11 there anyone else who came into your cell, that you can recall?

12 A. One man came and pointed his pistol at my head. I don't remember

13 who he was or anything else.

14 Q. Did he say anything?

15 A. He just cursed and swore.

16 Q. How did you feel when that happened?

17 A. Terrible.

18 Q. Did he do the same thing with other women in the cell?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How was he dressed?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. Thank you. During your custody during the three weeks that you

23 were in custody, were you scared at all?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you scared when anyone came into your cell?

Page 6621

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Afterwards, were you or others taken outside for interrogations?

3 A. Other women were.

4 Q. Do you know who did interrogate them?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know how often they were taken outside for interrogations?

7 A. From time to time.

8 Q. Do you know if your mother also was taken outside for

9 interrogations?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know if those interrogations happened in day light or in

12 the evening, at night?

13 A. Yes. In the day.

14 Q. Do you know, do you remember if you had any lighting in the night?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You didn't have a light, or you don't remember?

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you know if the persons that you just mentioned,

19 were the only ones who came into your cell during all the three weeks, or

20 were there other persons coming and threatening you?

21 A. Only these people came.

22 MR. JONES: Just for the record, the way the question was put

23 might imply that the persons who came threatened her. There was one

24 person, obviously, who threatened her and it shouldn't be implied that any

25 of the others did, the nurse or this person called Zulfo or the person who

Page 6622

1 introduced himself as Naser Oric, just so that is clear.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Your point is well taken. I mean I think the

3 problem is linguistic more than anything else.

4 MR. DORIA: Yes, I didn't mind that, actually.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps you can rephrase your question. I mean,

6 it's no big deal, but I think it is better if you rephrase your question

7 because ultimately the -- these transcripts will have to be read and there

8 is no guarantee that it will be just us who will read them, so ...

9 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour, I will rephrase my question.

10 Q. Apart from the man who you say -- you testified that came and

11 threatened you with a pistol, do you recall anyone else coming and doing

12 the same thing to other women, the same?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you earlier referred to certain Ilija

15 Ivanovic and some other two males who came and brought to you firewood.

16 How did they look like?

17 A. Bent. They were bent over.

18 Q. Do you know why they were bent over?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Madam Stamenic, you say that sometime later when -- after you were

21 brought to the women's cell, you came to know that there were male

22 prisoners, males held in the same building. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know where was the location of this room in which the males

25 were held?

Page 6623

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps she can tell us how she came to know that

3 there were, after all, males in the buildings. How did you come -- you

4 put the question, Mr. Doria.


6 Q. Yes. You hear His Honour asking. Madam Stamenic, if you could

7 describe us better the situation. How come you to know that there were

8 males in that building, I understand, apart from the guards?

9 A. I heard screams during the night and wailing.

10 Q. All right. How often could you hear the screams?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I saw the witness saying something, but I am sure

12 that whatever she said could not be heard. So if she could perhaps repeat

13 her question -- her answer, and I think she -- there is some problem also

14 in that the way she spoke seems to indicate that there is some problem

15 with your -- with hearing your question to start with, Mr. Doria.


17 Q. Madam Stamenic, how often did you hear the screaming? You say

18 that you heard screaming. How often did you hear the screaming?

19 A. Twice a night.

20 Q. Do you know if you heard the same screaming during daylight too?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Madam Stamenic, when you heard these voices, do you know if the

23 voices that you were hearing was something, like, close to your cell? Or

24 very far away from your cell?

25 A. Close to my cell.

Page 6624












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6625

1 Q. Madam Stamenic, you mentioned one male coming into your room with

2 the name of Ilija and some two others. Do you know if those males were

3 coming from that cell?

4 A. I don't know about those two.

5 Q. Madam Stamenic, when you say that you heard voices during the

6 night, at least twice at night, screaming, what do you mean

7 by "screaming"? Was that -- was it in the sense of crying out of --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't put any leading questions here.


10 Q. What do you mean by "screaming"? Yes, exactly.

11 A. What I meant was that they were being beaten.

12 Q. Could you hear any other noise, apart from the human voice that

13 you hear screaming?

14 A. I heard something like a bat, somebody being beaten by a bat or a

15 pole.

16 Q. Yes. Apart from the sounds of the bat and the voices of those

17 screaming, did you hear any other voices at that time?

18 A. Yes. I heard people shouting "Get up. Get up."

19 Q. Thank you. You said that there was screaming. Can you explain

20 better what kind of screaming was that?

21 A. You know when a person is moaning or wailing.

22 Q. Yes, I know. You already said it was out of pain. Is that what

23 you want to say again?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. You say that you heard the sound of bats. How often did you hear

Page 6626

1 this sound?

2 A. I don't remember how often I heard it.

3 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you say that you stayed in prison for

4 a period of three weeks. What happened thereafter?

5 A. Then we were exchanged.

6 Q. How did you come to know about the exchange? Was there anyone?

7 A. Zulfo came and told us that we would be exchanged the following

8 day.

9 Q. You mean the same person who presented himself as Zulfo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when did he tell you about that? Was that -- I mean from the

12 time when he told you about that and the time when the actual exchange

13 took place, you were?

14 A. One day before we were to be exchanged.

15 Q. Thank you. You earlier also named two persons, you say the one

16 was Ilija Ivanovic and some other two males who came with the wood. Do

17 you -- do you remember their ethnicity? You said you knew him?

18 A. I only knew Ilija.

19 Q. And which ethnicity was Ilija?

20 A. He was a Serb.

21 Q. Do you know which ethnicity were the other two who came in to

22 bring firewood for you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you, Madam Stamenic. During your time in the women's cell,

25 did you ever -- were you able to wash yourself? Were you taken to a

Page 6627

1 lavatory or a shower?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Madam Stamenic, again, if you could -- if you can recall, the

4 three males who came into your cell, could you notice anything from their

5 physical appearance? You said earlier they were bending. Did you notice

6 anything else on them?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you say that one day before you were

9 exchanged a person who called -- a person Zulfo came in and announced that

10 you were going to be exchanged. Do you recall who took you from the cell

11 to where -- how that happened, could you describe to the Trial Chamber,

12 please. I mean the next day when the actual exchange took place.

13 A. My mother was there and two women took hold of her, each -- on

14 their sides, and that's how they took her out.

15 Q. Were you escorted by anyone?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was escorting you?

18 A. There were some soldiers.

19 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, if we could have a break, I think

20 it's ...

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So madam, we are going to have another break, 25

22 minutes again, and we will continue soon after an hopefully finish with

23 your examination-in-chief. The understanding is, Mr. Jones, that you will

24 then start with your cross-examination, either immediately upon

25 termination of the in-chief or tomorrow. There's no way we can finish

Page 6628

1 with this witness today, it seems.

2 MR. JONES: No. That is clear.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We can proceed. Yes, Mr. Doria, please.

7 MR. DORIA: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Madam Stamenic, you testified that during your custody in prison

9 as someone who presented himself as Naser Oric came in to the women's

10 cell. Do you remember if that person identified himself also either --

11 MR. JONES: I wonder if again it's going to be a leading question

12 with a suggestion as to what else he said. Why doesn't my learned friend

13 ask if anything else was said on that occasion?


15 MR. DORIA: Your Honour if --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. I am afraid I have the same

17 suspicion -- thank you, Mr. Jones.

18 Mr. Doria, I have the same suspicions as Mr. Jones, actually. I

19 don't know what your question is going to be but you may make it sound as

20 if you're going to put words in the witness's mouth.

21 MR. DORIA: I will try not to do so.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, fine. We would greatly appreciate that.


24 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you recall what was he wearing? How was he

25 dressed?

Page 6629

1 THE INTERPRETER: No audible response

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree, I saw the witness making gestures with her

3 head but we could not hear her answer.

4 Could you please repeat your answer, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.


7 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you recall him identifying himself either by

8 position or rank?

9 A. He said he was the commander.

10 Q. Thank you. Madam Stamenic, you say that eventually you were

11 released from your captivity. Do you recall when was that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please.

14 A. The 6th of February.

15 Q. On that day you were released from the prison, and were taken

16 where?

17 A. I was taken for an exchange.

18 Q. Do you recall whether you were escorted, or not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall who escorted you?

21 A. The soldiers.

22 Q. Do you recall which uniform did they have?

23 A. No.

24 Q. I mean, do you recall -- do you recall the colour of the uniform?

25 A. No.

Page 6630

1 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you recall how you went to the place of the

2 exchange? Was it by a car, by a -- or any other vehicle?

3 A. Another vehicle.

4 Q. Which one was that?

5 A. Like a combi van.

6 Q. Do you recall any other women being exchanged with you, being

7 released from the prison?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall numbers?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Madam Stamenic, on the 6th -- you say on the 6th you were

12 released. Do you recall the place in which you were taken from the

13 detention, from the prison?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber where was it?

16 A. Between Kraglijivoda and Jezero.

17 Q. Madam Stamenic, do you recall who was -- who was the person in

18 charge of the exchange, on the part of the Muslim soldiers?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Madam Stamenic, from the moment that you eventually -- do you

21 remember what time did you come to -- did you arrive in the place of

22 exchange?

23 A. We set off from the prison sometime in the morning.

24 Q. And when did you arrive?

25 A. About an hour or two later. I don't know exactly.

Page 6631

1 Q. Do you recall for whom were you exchanged?

2 A. Well, they took out the dead from the truck.

3 Q. Were they Muslims? Or Serbs?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Do you recall to whom were you handed over during the exchange?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who were the persons to whom you were handed?

8 A. Well, I remember the man. His name was Cubus ^, that's how they

9 referred to him anyway.

10 Q. Where is this -- the persons were they civilians or soldiers?

11 A. Soldiers.

12 Q. Were they Muslim or Serbs?

13 A. Serbs.

14 Q. Madam Stamenic, after the exchange, where were you taken to?

15 A. To Skelani.

16 Q. To your home?

17 A. No. I was taken to hospital.

18 Q. How long did you stay in hospital after the exchange?

19 A. About three-and-a-half to four months.

20 Q. Were you able to be treated properly?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was it in Serb territory?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Madam Stamenic, thank you very much for your testimony.

25 Your Honours, I have no further questions.

Page 6632

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Jones, shall we start now?

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, I think I can make use of the time

4 since we have half an hour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have more than half an hour, with the

6 understanding that you stop when it is most convenient for you, so it's up

7 to you.

8 The other thing I wanted to make clear is that we will obviously

9 finish quite early in the day tomorrow. So I would like to know, here and

10 now, if you will be able to bring forward C002 tomorrow to start his or

11 her testimony.

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour we believe at this time period, since

13 the proofing session is continuing, we have contacted Mr. Di Fazio to find

14 out whether it would be possible to go forward. I've been informed that

15 the preference would be, if the witness would start on Wednesday morning

16 and not tomorrow.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that's ...

18 MS. SELLERS: Could I please try to return to you prior to the end

19 of this session?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Please do. Because ...

21 Anyway, that's the least said the better. Yes, Mr. Jones.

22 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Now, Miss Stamenic, just to start I'm going to ask you some

24 questions about your village and the general area. Now, firstly, Kusici

25 is a hamlet in Zabornica village, isn't it?

Page 6633

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It's also near Kostolomci, isn't it?

3 A. Kostolomci is a little further away, across the hill, over the

4 hill.

5 Q. But it's a matter of a few kilometres, would you agree?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Your Honours, in fact, just for the benefit of us more than

8 anything else, I have --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to suggest it, but --

10 MR. JONES: I do have copies of a map which I will pass up.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I appreciate that. We do have a map here, but

12 it's not easy to follow unless someone indicates the various spots.

13 MR. JONES: Yes. This map is of the Skelani area, which is being

14 passed up.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other thing I want to make sure is that if

16 this map is put on the ELMO, for the benefit of the witness, I want to

17 make sure that the witness can actually see it.

18 MR. JONES: Yes. I think that won't be necessary for the moment.

19 I just wanted to establish those two places, Kostolomci which we see

20 roughly in the middle of the map, and then further down Zabornica further

21 down and to the left, and then Skelani there, again, in the middle.

22 Q. Now, Ms. Stamenic, in 1992 and early 1993, wasn't your hamlet

23 guarded by men in the village?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know Stanoje Mitrovic and Slavko Mitrovic?

Page 6634

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. They were part of that guard, weren't they?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now I take it you saw them around the village. Isn't it correct

5 that they were wearing olive-green JNA uniforms?

6 A. They wore green uniforms.

7 Q. Those of the former JNA?

8 A. Yes. The standard type of army uniform.

9 Q. And didn't they also have a Papovka, semi-automatic rifles?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know who issued them with those rifles?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Aside from those soldiers, isn't it right that the Serb army, the

14 army proper, had its front lines above your hamlet, Kusici, on the hill?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it right that that line was established at the start of the

17 war, so around April/May, 1992?

18 A. I don't know.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, we are having problems in spotting Kusici

20 on this map.

21 MR. JONES: Yes, unfortunately it doesn't appear there. It might

22 assist if I ask the witness about some other villages, and to see whether

23 those are close to her village.

24 Q. For example, Ms. Stamenic, is Pavkovici near your hamlet?

25 Pavkovici.

Page 6635

1 A. No.

2 Q. Is Malta, the village, near your hamlet?

3 A. It's Djabokvica [phoen].

4 Q. You've told us that Kalmanici was near your hamlet. How about

5 Dvizovici, is that also near? Dvizovici.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So would it be right to say that your hamlet is somewhere between

8 Dvizovici and Kalmanici?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, do you know where Popovici is?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Savici?

13 THE WITNESS: [ Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: How -- is Savici far from your village?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not far.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you know where Drmnik ...

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And again, is that far from your village?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's further off than Savici.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. So am I right in suggesting that your

21 village was somewhere between Dvizovici and Savici?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, over the hill.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine. You see, it's a good thing to be able to read

24 maps, Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: Yes, yes. I'm obliged Your Honour.

Page 6636

1 Q. And, in fact, in perhaps, finally, Okalardi [phoen], is that

2 anywhere near your hamlet?

3 A. Not too far off.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can stop there. We have an idea now.


6 Q. Now, you've told us that a Muslim village, Kaborici [phoen], was

7 one or two kilometres away from your hamlet. Resagici was also nearby,

8 wasn't it?

9 A. Resagici, further away, closer to Skelani, in fact.

10 Q. But you knew some of the Muslims from Resagici from before the

11 war, didn't you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And didn't you also know a number of Muslims from Dobrak, another

14 Muslim village?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Because in fact you went to school in Skelani, didn't you, and you

17 knew many Muslims from the area from your schooling?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Regarding these Muslims in your area, in Dobrak, Resagici and

20 other places like Tihici, Ragovici [phoen], you got on well with your

21 Muslim neighbours, didn't you? You had coffee with them, helped them out

22 with chores, that sort of thing?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you mentioned a Muslim woman named Djemila, she was actually a

25 friend of your family before the war, wasn't she?

Page 6637

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where -- where was she from, if you could help us with that?

3 A. She was from Dobrak.

4 Q. But when we turn to January 1993, when you saw her, she wasn't

5 living in Dobrak at that point, was she?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In fact, isn't it true that at that time the hundreds of Muslims

8 from that area, from Dobrak, Aragovici [phoen] had all left their homes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you have any idea why the Muslims left their homes, their

11 farms, their fields, and everything they had worked for?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Is it something that you ever asked about or enquired about or

14 tried to find out about?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you accept that possibly they might have been forced to leave

17 by Serb soldiers and paramilitaries?

18 MR. DORIA: Your Honour, if I may have I have an objection.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Doria.

20 MR. DORIA: I don't think the witness could have known why and

21 under which circumstances. I think it is speculation.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's speculation, obviously it will be ignored,

23 like every other speculation.

24 MR. JONES: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: There is nothing to suggest that she may have the

Page 6638












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6639

1 right answer for that question based on her actual knowledge of the events

2 at the time.

3 MR. JONES: Yes. She could have learned about that in a hundred

4 different ways. She could have seen it, she could have heard about it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I know that you are on cross-examination, not

6 on examination-in-chief. I think I will -- definitely I have no doubt at

7 all that we should allow the question and, if it is speculation obviously

8 we will ignore it and remind or draw the attention of the witness not to

9 speculate. Which I am doing now in actual fact.

10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I will put the question

11 again.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.


14 Q. Were you aware, Miss Stamenic, that the Muslims in your area had

15 been forced to leave their homes by soldiers, paramilitaries and locals?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You're not aware of that? You're -- you're stating categorically

18 that that did not happen?

19 A. I'm not aware of it.

20 Q. Turning to the events of 16th January, 1993, you told us how you

21 were wounded in the left thigh during the attack. Just before you were

22 wounded there were in fact shots being fired all over the place, weren't

23 there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you didn't see who shot you, did you?

Page 6640

1 A. No.

2 Q. So you don't know whether the person or persons who shot you were

3 the same as those who captured you, do you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And isn't it right that as far as you know you could have been

6 shot by a stray bullet rather than by someone deliberately targetting you?

7 The fact is you don't know one way or the other, do you?

8 A. I don't know. Maybe it was a stray bullet. I didn't see.

9 Q. Now, you've spoken about how your hamlet was attacked by what you

10 referred to as the Muslim army and you've also spoken at length about

11 soldiers. So I want to break that down a bit.

12 Now, firstly, you knew nothing at the time, did you, of how any

13 Muslim armed forces were organised, if indeed they were organised?

14 A. No.

15 Q. At the time -- and possibly later, you don't know if there was one

16 Muslim army or many Muslim armies?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. Nor did you know whether the fighters who you saw were in any way

19 organised as any modern army would be; is that correct?

20 A. I didn't know whether they were organised or not, no.

21 Q. So would it be correct to say that when you referred to the Muslim

22 army, you're essentially referring to a collection of fighters whom you

23 believed to be Muslim?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, as far as soldiers are concerned, on the 16th of January

Page 6641

1 1993, you saw men and women all mixed up together, didn't you?

2 A. On the 16th of January?

3 Q. Yes. In other words, men and women were all mixed up together.

4 There weren't separate groupings. Would that be correct?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Now, starting with the men, isn't it right that some men wore some

7 kind of uniform and others were in civilian clothes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And as far as any uniforms were concerned, isn't it true that

10 there wasn't one standard uniform that you saw? There were different

11 colours and different styles?

12 A. Camouflage uniforms with red bands.

13 Q. Yes. But that just applies to some of the men you saw, correct?

14 You're not -- you're not saying that everyone you saw was wearing

15 camouflage uniform and red bands?

16 A. Those that I saw.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You're doing exactly what you criticized Mr. Doria

18 for doing. She had already given you a straightforward answer and you

19 tried to get a different answer from her.

20 MR. JONES: Well, no. Your Honour it's -- there is a matter which

21 needs to be clarified, which hopefully my next question will make clear.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hope so.

23 MR. JONES: -- which is the following.

24 Q. Isn't it right that there were men who wore either a uniform or

25 part of a uniform but who didn't have red bands, whom you saw?

Page 6642

1 A. I saw them with the bands.

2 Q. Now, as far as the bands are concerned, are you quite clear these

3 were red bands tied around the head, and not black arm bands tied around

4 the arm?

5 A. Red bands around their foreheads.

6 Q. Right. So you didn't see any black bands or ribbons tied around

7 the arms of any of these fighters?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And as far as the men you saw on that day are concerned, many of

10 them had no weapons at all, would that be correct?

11 A. I didn't see them.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this needs a little bit of clarification.

13 She didn't see, what?

14 MR. JONES: Yes.

15 Q. Are you saying that you didn't see a single uniformed fighter

16 without a weapon?

17 A. I couldn't see if every single soldier had weapons of some sort.

18 Q. Isn't it a fact that there were tens if not hundreds of people in

19 the area around your -- the hamlet and village that day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And leaving the men aside, you told us there were women there as

22 well. Were there children as well who you saw?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And old people?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6643

1 Q. Just finally then on the matter of soldiers, would it be correct

2 to say that when you refer to "soldiers," you're referring to men with

3 weapons and with these red bands, firstly?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But you have no idea which army or forces they belonged to,

6 assuming they belonged to any forces?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Right. "No," in that you have no idea to which forces, if any,

9 they belonged? I think I have the answer. I will move on to another

10 question.

11 Now the people who captured you on that day, didn't they in fact

12 treat you perfectly properly, in fact they brought a stretcher out for

13 you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And isn't it in fact also the case that Djemila took you into her

16 house and changed your clothes, because they were bloody?

17 A. Her and my mother went into the house. They found a room that was

18 still not on fire and they found a skirt there. They brought out a skirt

19 and they took off my trousers.

20 Q. So your mother and Djemila, the Muslim lady, went into a burning

21 house to get dressing to attend to your wound?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. DORIA: Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Doria.

25 MR. DORIA: I wonder if it could be clarified which house they are

Page 6644

1 talking about. Is it Djemila's house or the witness's house?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you put your question yourself,

3 Mr. Jones, otherwise I will put it.

4 MR. JONES: Yes, I can with the proviso that, of course, if the

5 Prosecution think there are matters, they can raise it in re-examination.



8 Q. Which house was it that was on fire, partially on fire?

9 A. Our house.

10 Q. And as far as your house is concerned, you didn't see anyone

11 actually set it on fire, did you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Nor did you see anyone set fire to your stable?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And while we're on that subject, you told us how on the way to

16 Srebrenica you saw burning houses I think it was in Brezani, again you

17 didn't see anyone set those houses on fire, did you?

18 A. I saw that those houses had already burnt down.

19 Q. So to summarize, you don't have any idea, do you, who, if anyone

20 set fire to any of the houses which you saw burning or burnt?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Right. Now, going back to the help which Djemila and your mother

23 gave to you, after you'd been wounded, would you agree that they, first of

24 all, did all they could to help to reduce your discomfort?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6645

1 Q. And would you agree that that is also true of the other Muslim

2 fighters and civilians who were in the area at that time, that to the

3 extent that they did anything, they helped you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that they took you to the hospital in

6 Srebrenica for treatment?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, you told us that Djemila was a local Muslim woman, Djemila,

9 who announced that you would be taken to Srebrenica to be exchanged. Did

10 you understand from this, that that was how the Muslims would get back

11 their live people or their dead, by taking you to Srebrenica and then

12 exchanging you?

13 A. At that moment I did not understand anything. I didn't know -- I

14 didn't know that.

15 Q. Right. But that's eventually what happened, wasn't it, you were

16 exchanged for dead Muslims?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I want to ask you a little bit about the sight which you had

19 of objects being taken from your house. Isn't it right that they were

20 mostly taking food, these civilians, from your home, namely cheese?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were they grabbing the food pretty frantically, and even

23 fighting each other over the food; is that something you saw?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you get the impression, from what you saw, that these Muslim

Page 6646

1 civilians were desperately hungry?

2 A. They may have been.

3 Q. And you also mentioned how blankets were taken. It's right, isn't

4 it, it was very cold at this time?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. JONES: Right. I think I have a few more questions on one

7 subject and then we can wrap up for the day.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It is entirely up to you, Mr. Jones.

9 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Now, the journey to Srebrenica which you undertook by cart, took a

11 very long time in fact, didn't it? It took nearly a whole day.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the cart was travelling at roughly walking pace, was it?

14 A. Yes. It was an ox-driven cart.

15 Q. So that's roughly, then, how long it would take to walk to

16 Srebrenica from Kusici, nearly a whole day?

17 A. Not the whole day, as we took a longer road.

18 Q. Do you know why you took a longer road?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, upon arrival in Srebrenica, you were taken immediately to the

21 hospital, weren't you? You weren't taken to a police station and asked

22 questions or anything?

23 A. The hospital.

24 Q. Yes. My point was this: You were taken straight to the hospital,

25 weren't you?

Page 6647

1 A. Straight to the hospital.

2 Q. Now, finally, if you can help us with this. As you arrived in

3 Srebrenica, on the road going into Srebrenica, did you not see the sight

4 of hundreds of people out on the streets?

5 A. There were people. I don't remember how many.

6 Q. But many people?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. They were in a fairly wretched state, were they not, living out on

9 the streets?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Well, did you have the opportunity to observe their appearance and

12 see whether they looked starving and sickly?

13 A. No.

14 Q. No, you didn't notice? Or they looked in perfect health to you?

15 A. I didn't notice.

16 Q. And did you see them burning fires outside for warmth and to cook

17 food?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. JONES: I think we can stop there for the day.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones, and I thank you Madam

22 Stamenic. We will meet again tomorrow morning and hopefully we will

23 finish with your testimony within a relatively short time.

24 I thank you once more. You will be attended to by our staff over

25 there and we will make sure that you will receive all of the attention

Page 6648

1 you -- and the assistance you need. I thank you.

2 Yes, number 1.

3 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. In terms of tomorrow's witness, I

4 understand the witness is currently on a lunch break. What I suggest is

5 that I will contact the legal officer and Defence this afternoon after

6 being able to ascertain whether the Prosecution can go forward with the

7 witness's testimony, or not.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. As far as we are concerned, although I haven't

9 had the time to consult with the other two Judges, but if what I am saying

10 is not agreeable, please speak out. Is that from the amended witness list

11 that you yourself -- when I say "you" it's not you, understandably -- the

12 Prosecution has submitted C-002 was scheduled to start tomorrow and not on

13 Wednesday.

14 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So this witness that we will be finishing tomorrow

16 was scheduled to start today and finish tomorrow, and indeed she is going

17 to finish tomorrow, but then we had also scheduled that C-002 will start

18 tomorrow. So to shift that will require pretty much convincing, let me

19 tell you straightforward already. We will not really like to waste the

20 rest of the day tomorrow. Half an hour here or there won't make a

21 difference, but I'm trying to stress the point that we ought to start with

22 C-002 tomorrow.

23 MS. SELLERS: I clearly understand what you're saying,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 2 is, we will be moving to courtroom 1

Page 6649

1 tomorrow. The sitting is still in the morning, but not in courtroom 2,

2 but in courtroom 1.

3 The other thing I wanted to alert you to is that because of

4 certain family exigencies of one of the members of the Trial Chamber, we

5 will not be sitting on the 22nd of April. So you are scheduled to start a

6 witness on the 22nd of April, I won't mention his or her name because I am

7 not sure if he or she enjoys protective measures, but that witness can

8 still -- can start on the 21st if you finish the previous witness on the

9 21st, but please be advised that we will not sit on the 22nd. And we are

10 trying to do our level best to make some adjustments to the sitting of the

11 28th, moving it from where it is, but I thought we had been successful.

12 We haven't. There has been a roundabout turn, and for the time being, the

13 schedule for the 28th remains as it is. In other words -- but we are

14 trying to change that, to shift it to the morning.

15 So we meet again tomorrow morning. I take it that you will finish

16 by the first break? It's up to you. If it's not possible, we will ...

17 MR. JONES: That would really seem about right, another hour and a

18 half.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems so ...

20 Yes, thank you, Judge Eser.

21 Mrs. Stamenic, before I let you go, I don't know where you are and

22 I don't know who is with you, but I want to make sure that between today

23 and tomorrow you do not allow anyone to approach you to discuss with you

24 the things that we are discussing here and that, from your part, you also

25 not discuss any of the subject matter of your testimony with anyone.

Page 6650

1 I know that I can count on your word. I just want you to promise

2 me that.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of April,

7 2005, at 9.00 a.m.