Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7189

1 Wednesday, 13 April 2005.

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good afternoon to you too.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,

12 I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good afternoon to you, and you may sit

14 down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and good afternoon to

17 the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution,

18 together with co-counsel Ms. Joanne Richardson and our case manager,

19 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good afternoon to you

21 and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am

24 Vasvija Vidovic and together with Mr. John Jones, I represent the Defence

25 counsel of Mr. Naser Oric. Together with us is our legal assistant,

Page 7190

1 Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts. And I would

2 also like to say good afternoon to our learned friends from the

3 Prosecution.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Preliminaries?

5 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honours, I would like to do a submission that I

6 would prefer to advise to do it subsequent to the testimony of the

7 witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay with you?

9 MR. JONES: Yes, that's fine.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Any submissions on your part?

11 MR. JONES: No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 So let's bring the witness in and try to finish with her testimony

14 the earliest possible. Have you made -- when I say "you," I know it is

15 not your responsibility to make such arrangements, but have arrangements

16 been made to have her travel back home today? Are you aware?

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not aware of whether or not she

18 can travel today, but I do know the victim's witness [sic] was -- did, I

19 believe, look into it, and they have spoken with the witness and her

20 daughter. So I think she is aware of when she will be going home by now.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, that's fine. That's fine. One moment.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Madam Nikolic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. We should be over with your

Page 7191

1 testimony very quickly today, and I am told that preparations are underway

2 already to facilitate your return back home at the earliest opportunity.

3 Mr. Jones, who is co-counsel for Mr. Oric, the accused, will be

4 proceeding and concluding -- proceeding with and concluding his

5 cross-examination very shortly.

6 May I just remind you of the solemn declaration that you made

7 yesterday to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in

8 the course of your testimony. I thank you.

9 Mr. Jones.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Jones: [Continued]

13 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mrs. Nikolic, yesterday when we stopped I was asking you about

15 Kravica and you had accepted you had gone through a part of Kravica. And

16 now in order to work out what part of Kravica you went through, I would be

17 grateful if you could explain exactly where you went, what part of the

18 village you went through.

19 A. We went through Opravdici and we descended to Kravica. And in

20 Kravica we went through the part where everything was burned down. I was

21 driven through Kravica up to Kajici. We went to Kajici.

22 Q. So that's a dirt road, is it, that you took through Opravdici to

23 reach Kravica?

24 A. That is a road that leads from our village to Kravica, and this is

25 the road we have always been using.

Page 7192

1 Q. When I asked you yesterday how many houses in Kravica you saw

2 which had been destroyed or burnt, you said, "I don't know". Can you give

3 us any sort of an estimate, whether it was 5, or 10, 15, 20? Some

4 approximation as to how many burnt houses you saw.

5 A. In Kravica?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Kravica, as far as my eye could reach, everything was burnt down

8 in Kravica.

9 Q. My question was whether you could attach a number to the number of

10 buildings which you saw.

11 A. I can't give you the number. I don't know how many houses there

12 were in the first place.

13 Q. Okay. And when you went through Kravica on the 8th of January,

14 didn't you see a great many civilians there as well?

15 A. There was nobody in Kravica when I was driven through the village.

16 Q. So when you went through Kravica on the 8th of January, 1993, it

17 was completely deserted, apart from your group; is that correct?

18 A. It was all burnt and smouldering, and there was nothing but

19 darkness. It was pitch dark in the village.

20 Q. I was asking you about people, whether you saw people in Kravica.

21 And you're saying you didn't see any people because it was pitch black?

22 A. There were no people in Kravica. There were just the troops that

23 came, and we saw five dead people in Kajici. And these are the only

24 people that we saw, the dead people, the five dead people. We did not

25 have any living soul on the way.

Page 7193

1 Q. Are you saying that you didn't see any civilians in Kravica on the

2 8th of January, 1993? People in civilian clothing?

3 A. We didn't see anybody in Kravica. Nobody in civilian clothes. Or

4 in military clothes for that matter. That was on the 8th of January, when

5 I was driven through Kravica. There was just the troops that followed us.

6 Q. Finally on that, you said it was pitch dark in the village. Can

7 you explain why it was pitch dark. Is it because it was very early in the

8 morning or for some other reason?

9 A. Again, you are referring to Kravica?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Kravica was burned, and what was dark was the remains, the black

12 remains of the houses that had burned. That was black.

13 Q. I won't pursue that.

14 You referred to seeing troops, repeatedly, and just now on the 8th

15 of January, 1993. You've told us that troops were in green uniform. Is

16 that the olive-green uniform of the JNA?

17 A. Where do you think that they were?

18 Q. No. Sorry, I'm asking you, Mrs. Nikolic. Were the green uniforms

19 of the troops you saw the olive-green uniforms which the JNA used to use?

20 A. The only troops that I saw had multicoloured uniforms, blue and

21 green. I did not see anything else. I only saw these troops following

22 us. Walking after us.

23 Q. When you say "blue and green," are you saying that's a

24 multicoloured uniform which was blue and green, or you saw people in blue

25 uniforms and people in other coloured uniforms?

Page 7194

1 A. I didn't see anybody.

2 Q. Now, moving on to Glogova. You told us how you were taken to

3 Glogova. That was a Muslim village before the war, wasn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, when you were in Glogova, did you see burnt houses there too?

6 A. Those in which they were, were not burned. Ratko's house was not

7 burned. Ratko Nikolic's house.

8 Q. Yes. But that's the house -- a Serb house, firstly, correct?

9 A. Yes. Serb houses.

10 Q. I'm not talking about his house. I'm talking about all of the

11 houses in Glogova. Didn't you see that they, too, had been burnt?

12 A. They were burned.

13 Q. The Muslim houses in Glogova you saw had also been burnt?

14 A. Yes. They were burnt.

15 Q. Do you know when they were burnt?

16 A. On the 1st of May, I believe. I believe that it was then that

17 they were set fire to.

18 Q. Right. So you're aware, then, that in early May, 1992, I think

19 we're talking about, the Muslims in Glogova had their homes burned and

20 were expelled from their homes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, you said yesterday that Esma was whom you saw, a woman that

23 she was a Muslim. In fact, you know, don't you, that Esma was a gypsy?

24 A. I don't know what she was. She was with the troops. She was

25 walking with the troops.

Page 7195

1 Q. Didn't Fatima Golic, in fact, protect you from Esma?

2 A. Yes, she did protect me. Fatima Golic protected me from Esma,

3 yes.

4 Q. You also told us yesterday how you were taken from the police

5 station in Srebrenica now and asked questions. And in that regard we

6 looked at a document, which of course you didn't look at, but we glanced

7 at. And it's really for our benefit, it's P519. And do you recall when

8 being questioned, you didn't tell the person who questioned you that your

9 husband was dead, did you? You didn't state categorically "my husband is

10 dead."

11 A. I was captured and he went to tend the cattle. I didn't know

12 whether he was dead or alive. Until the moment I left the prison, I

13 didn't know that he was alive.

14 Q. Right. My question was the following: In Srebrenica, you didn't

15 tell anyone, did you, "my husband is dead," in those terms?

16 A. What do I know? Maybe I did. Maybe I didn't. I didn't go any

17 where but to town where I was interrogated. Until the moment I was

18 exchanged, I didn't go anywhere else.

19 Q. Okay. And if this document says that you had two children at the

20 time, that would be wrong, wouldn't it? You actually had three children

21 at the time.

22 A. I've always had three children.

23 Q. Now, dealing with this interview, was it just one person who was

24 interviewing you when you were asked questions?

25 A. Yes. One lady was interviewing me.

Page 7196












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Page 7197

1 Q. It was one lady alone who interviewed you? No one else?

2 A. No. It was one man who interrogated me in town.

3 Q. And there was a woman present when he was doing so. Is that what

4 you're telling us?

5 A. I don't know. I don't know whether there was a woman or whether

6 there wasn't. I only know that a policeman took me there. They

7 interrogated me and then they took me back to prison.

8 Q. Just one further question about the way that the man spoke, he

9 spoke to you. Now, firstly I want to ask you if you're aware of the

10 difference between the way Serbs speak and a Ijekavian dialect and the

11 Ekavian dialect. Is that something you're familiar of?

12 A. I don't know. He was interrogating me. He asked me what I had,

13 what had been taken from me, what had been destroyed, and that was that.

14 Q. Okay. It's simply this: Are you aware that Serbs in Serbia would

15 say for the word "white," would say "belo," whereas people in Bosnia would

16 see "bijelo"? Are you aware of that difference?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. All right. Now, finally on the person who asked you questions.

19 Do you recall anything else about him, about his physical appearance, his

20 height, whether he had a beard, clean-shaven? Anything at all?

21 A. It was 12 years ago. How am I supposed to remember what he was

22 like? I wasn't looking at him that carefully. I don't know whether he

23 was clean-shaven or not.

24 Q. Well, precisely. Do you even recall 12 years ago which people

25 were in uniform and which people were in civilian clothes? Is that

Page 7198

1 something which you clearly recollect?

2 A. Those who were in military uniforms were in military uniforms.

3 Those who wore civilian clothes wore civilian clothes. That's what I

4 know. That's all I know.

5 Q. Now, finally just turning to the conditions of detention in the

6 detention cell after you left the police station. I want to ask you a bit

7 about what occurred there.

8 Now, leaving aside the person or persons who came in and

9 threatened you and some of the other women, you were never beaten or

10 physically mistreated in that cell, were you?

11 A. No. We were not beaten.

12 Q. And dealing with the person or persons who came in and threatened

13 you, didn't the guards, in fact, tell those people to stop and to leave

14 you women alone?

15 A. Those people who came to ill-treat us and intimidate us, they

16 came, and with them was somebody who said if anybody wanted to enter, he

17 wouldn't let them enter.

18 Q. Right. Now, just some final questions about the men and the

19 sounds you heard coming from their cell.

20 You described yesterday how you heard people saying "joj." Now,

21 in your language "joj" is an expression of exacerbation, isn't it?

22 A. What do I know? When they were beaten, they were shouting, Joj,

23 and then we would hear the reply, Don't moan and wail. Fuck you, you

24 Chetnik and your Chetnik mother.

25 Q. That's something you didn't tell us yesterday. But my question

Page 7199

1 was about the phrase or the expression, the word "joj". I just want to

2 ask you about that word. To give an example, you can say in your

3 language, Joj, ja sam umorna, can't you, for example? I'm hungry, joj.

4 A. If I say, Joj, ja sam umorna, Joj, I'm tired, I'll say it at home.

5 I won't say it in prison, will I?

6 Q. I'm just trying to establish this. You don't always say joj in

7 your language when you are being beaten, do you?

8 A. What do I know? In any case, we heard them shouting "joj."

9 Why -- what happened I don't know. In any case, they were not moaning

10 just for the fun of it.

11 Q. No. But you can also moan when you're ill, can't you, for

12 example?

13 A. Yes, of course.

14 Q. And as far as moaning is concerned, you told us that you, too,

15 moan sometimes. And when you moaned, you were not being beaten, were you?

16 A. In prison none of us moaned. Nobody beat us and we didn't moan.

17 MR. JONES: Thank you. No further questions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.

19 Is there re-examination, Ms. Richardson.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. No redirect.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richardson.

22 Judge Brydensholt? No questions. Judge Eser, no questions; and

23 I, no questions.

24 Which means, Madam Nikolic, that we have finished with your

25 testimony. As I tried to explain and as I promised you yesterday, you are

Page 7200

1 free to go now, and I will have Madam Usher to help you leave the

2 courtroom; she will escort you out.

3 But before you leave this courtroom, I would like to thank you on

4 behalf of the Tribunal. On behalf of Judge Brydensholt and on behalf of

5 Judge Eser and of course on my own behalf I would like to thank you for

6 having come over to give testimony in this case. And on behalf of

7 everyone, I wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you. If you need...

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So, let's deal with the rest of the issues that you

10 would like to raise, and these relate to case planning and housekeeping

11 and organising the rest of the sittings till the end of the Prosecution

12 case.

13 I was given before the sitting, and so was Judge Brydensholt and

14 Judge Eser, a document which is divided into three parts. I'm just saying

15 this to make sure that the Defence have got a copy of it. The first part

16 being a sequence list of witnesses for the period 14th April to 19th May,

17 which includes a new witness with the number 45, if approved by the Trial

18 Chamber.

19 The second part would refer to the period 20th May to end of May

20 2005 and covers the testimony of six witnesses, five of whom would be new

21 witnesses that the Prosecution would like to bring forward and one is a

22 recall, number 19, Nikola Popovic, and his testimony would be restricted,

23 as I understand it, to throwing additional light on the diary, war diary

24 that he testified upon when he was here.

25 The last part of this document refers to a number of witnesses

Page 7201

1 which the Prosecution says could be tentatively dropped from the witness

2 list. So I think the best way of proceeding with this is to ask Mr.

3 Wubben when he -- when I say "he," when the Prosecution intends to file

4 the relevant motions. Because I am taking it that what is included in

5 this document is a declaration of intent but not the decision to withdraw

6 these witnesses. To have others introduced, et cetera.

7 So that's how I take it.

8 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honours, to start with, that part that is the

9 latest schedule, tentatively dropped means that if we would decide to drop

10 them and we take -- I took the decision not to call them, that doesn't

11 mean the Trial Chamber will allow me. I have to seek for allowance by

12 Trial Chamber. And that's completely to the jurisdiction of the Trial

13 Chamber, and that's why I used careful wording and redaction

14 of "tentatively dropped". But we will include these names in our motion

15 to withdraw them from our list.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And when are we to expect your motion?

17 MR. WUBBEN: The motion, we would like to join with the motion of

18 the witnesses to add. We are well aware of the fact that there is a

19 separation between those two. There is no linkage between witnesses to --

20 not to call and witnesses requesting to add to our list. But we would

21 suggest for the proceeding as such to file one motion, preferably by the

22 beginning of at the coming week, in which we include both the witnesses to

23 drop, and I already confirm now to you, Your Honours, that this will

24 include these names, and the witnesses tentatively to be added to it.

25 When it comes to that middle scheduled list of names, Your Honours, there

Page 7202

1 tentatively means tentatively as a witness and tentatively as it comes to

2 the projected date.

3 For example, the second mentioned witness, number 19, we know

4 there is a very limited statement, but we -- and we know what it is about.

5 And may I add to it that it is not only the original diary but also a

6 video involved, but it is limited anyhow. We didn't receive the statement

7 yet -- at least, I didn't receive the statement yet. It can be done any

8 day, any moment.

9 With a view to number 52, we have organised it and they are

10 implementing that organising as such, but we will start to do that by

11 today, tomorrow or the day after. So we will have to do an assessment on

12 that statement, when received, and of course to send it to the Defence as

13 well when it is appropriate as such, and when we decided to call them, we

14 will inform, then, your Trial Chamber.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course we will expect to see the proper details

16 in the relative motions. But when you say here witness number 48, "court

17 system," I take it that this witness you intend, new witness you intend to

18 bring forward to testify on court system. Which court system? What

19 system are you referring to?

20 MR. WUBBEN: It is the court system as to the dates relevant in

21 the indictment and as is already known to that witness in Srebrenica, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Court system over there, in other words.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. At that time.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: At the time.

Page 7203

1 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Please be informed that Defence counsel,

2 according to my information, has already the statement of this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, all right. Witnesses 49, 50 and 51, "chain of

4 custody." Chain of custody of what?

5 MR. WUBBEN: Of the documents seized and used by the Prosecution

6 as exhibits.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And this witness number 52, military

8 officer witness. I mean, without giving names, can you explain what you

9 have in mind?

10 MR. WUBBEN: He will witness about -- well, he will -- it's hard

11 for me to project and to tell something whenever the statement should

12 already -- should be given yet, and will come. But we expect that this

13 officer will explain his experience from his commanding position as it

14 comes to the applicability of commander lines and, as such, the experience

15 of applicable recollections when it comes to a war situation.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And witness number 45, first box.

17 MR. WUBBEN: 45? I'm sorry, Your Honour --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness number 45, first box, 9th to 10th of May,

19 what are you seeking to prove?

20 MR. WUBBEN: That witness, Your Honours, will confirm to your

21 Trial Chamber in his statement how he came to make up a video relevant

22 when houses were burning in Bjelovac and further clarify what he saw.

23 Also a limited statement.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I do, of course, realise that the

25 motions have still got to be filed, Mr. Jones and Madam Vidovic. So

Page 7204












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Page 7205

1 unless you are prepared to volunteer one, I am not going, of course, to

2 ask you for a response now. But if you are in a position to respond, then

3 of course any comment that you might have will be more than welcome.

4 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, frankly speaking, I

6 still fail to understand what this temporary putting on the witness list

7 or -- means. Or temporary taking off the witness list. I hope that it

8 will become clear once the Prosecution has made its submission. We still

9 cannot comment, for the time being, if this is about very essential

10 matters. But we are very much worried by what is mentioned under 52, the

11 military officer witness. From what we heard today from Mr. Wubben, it is

12 clear that they have a certain person in mind. It would be fair toward

13 the Defence to give us at least a name of that person so that our

14 investigators can start investigating the expert capability of that person

15 and everything else.

16 At any rate, we will give our reply. I think this is under Rule

17 94 bis and -- but we will wait to see what the submission of the

18 Prosecution contains and then we will give -- give our reply. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Madam Vidovic. Only thing I need

20 to point out is this, that you seem to have referred to this witness

21 number 52 as sort of an expert. I am not taking this document to mean or

22 to indicate in any manner that this is wanted or required by the

23 Prosecution as an expert witness. If that is so, then there is another

24 Rule that is triggered, which requires a time limit and which would

25 require to be -- which would need to be observed. In any case, I am sure

Page 7206

1 that I don't need to preach to this anyone, because you all know it here.

2 On the other hand, of course Madam Vidovic is 100 percent right in

3 requesting that this gentleman's name and surname be communicated to the

4 Defence, unless there are special reasons which would make it necessary to

5 prompt you to file a motion for the withholding of the name of this

6 witness, which I don't know if that is the case or not. I have no

7 indication of it here.

8 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, may I at least request a couple of days,

9 because we didn't even start the interview yet, as I told the court. And

10 if that can wait for 48 hours, I will be very pleased, with a view also to

11 the fact that it is the end of May as projected tentatively. So that

12 gives us one month and a half. And I'm fully aware, but at the same time

13 I can confirm that the witness is projected to be a witness indeed, and

14 not an expert.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. All right. I do understand also that -- your

16 reluctance to indicate the name and surname of this person, not having

17 interviewed him already. And of course you have our understanding there.

18 But the moment you have interviewed this person and are in a position to

19 communicate the particulars, his particulars to the Defence, you are

20 required to do so without any delay, any undue delay.

21 MR. WUBBEN: I will do, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Right. So you expect to file the relative

23 motions by the end of the week, beginning of next week, in other words?

24 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. With a view to that projected witness to be

25 interviewed.

Page 7207

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry. Yes, Your Honour, I will repeat.

3 As projected, as an interview is projected to start, we prefer to

4 file a whole motion by the beginning of next week.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's number 1.

6 Since at least one of these new would be, or would be new

7 witnesses is scheduled to testify on the 9th and on the 10th of May, and

8 I'm referring to witness number 45 who supposedly shot the video,

9 et cetera, the Trial Chamber would appreciate if you could come back to us

10 at the earliest possible, Madam Vidovic.

11 With regard to the other six, that includes Nikola Popovic, I

12 again, I mean, if you could come back -- if you could come back to us with

13 your response at the earliest possible rather than making use of the

14 entire period of time contemplated under the Rules, we would appreciate

15 that.

16 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a few days ago we

18 received the statement, or rather the announcement that Mr. Okanovic might

19 testify. We have considered this, and talking about him we do not oppose

20 his name being put on the list of witnesses.

21 But talking about Nikola, Popovic, we will give our reply in a few

22 days. We need time to consider. About Okanovic it's okay.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly we will not deprive you of the time you

24 require, you need to consider that.

25 And this brings me to the other point, which is more worrying.

Page 7208

1 Today we will soon be adjourning. The reason is, I take it, that you are

2 not in a position to start examining in-chief Mr. Nikola Petrovic.

3 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour, that will be projected by tomorrow.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And Nikola Petrovic is projected to be in the box,

5 in the witness box for two days. Let's confirm this first. So we're

6 talking of Thursday and Friday. Is that correct?

7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Who will be leading this witness on your side?

9 MR. WUBBEN: Ms. Patricia Sellers, Your Honour, co-counsel.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you got an idea of how much time she requires?

11 MR. WUBBEN: Not yet, Your Honour. I can confirm after the trial

12 is through.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to know, because I'm now going to ask the

14 Defence how much time they require with this witness. Of course,

15 conceding that you don't know what he is going to testify.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, based on the first

17 statement, we anticipate that we will need at least three hours. But as

18 you said, it will greatly depend on the content of his statement.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, in addition, I've been advised that we

21 will not take more than one session as such for that witness.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The reason why I am saying this is this,

23 but because keeping a witness here the entire weekend on to the following

24 week, which perhaps he will be here for only one day testifying, involves

25 the Tribunal in a lot of money. In a lot of money. And we have a

Page 7209

1 responsibility to try and curtail or look after the financial interests of

2 this Tribunal. So I am making it very clear that we will be doing our

3 utmost to ensure that this witness will finish by the end of business day

4 or of the sitting on Friday.

5 And since you have dropped the -- would have been, the witness

6 following, that's Colonel Turle, we have the problem, it seems, that you

7 cannot have the next witness, number 42, who will be here for a good four

8 weeks -- four days and more, four testifying days, four days testifying.

9 I see that you will not be able to start with his examination-in-chief on

10 Monday.

11 MR. WUBBEN: Indeed, Your Honour. We're not able and we're also

12 not able -- we tried to reschedule other witnesses, and this was the best

13 possible.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Are there any remaining matters that -- I can't

15 remember her name, but the ex-South African police woman who was in the --

16 MR. WUBBEN: Ms. Manas.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Manas, yeah. Has she still got any areas to

18 cover?

19 MR. WUBBEN: We don't project that, Your Honour, at this moment.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have anyone from the Office of the

21 Prosecution that you had planned to bring over, I don't know, that could

22 fill in the blank of Monday?

23 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour, because we have no such plans.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So you reckon that you will be in a position to

25 start with the testimony of witness number 42 when?

Page 7210

1 MR. WUBBEN: On Wednesday, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: When is he coming over?

3 MR. WUBBEN: In the weekend. And then we will start proofing.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: He couldn't come earlier?

5 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. My suggestion -- I mean, it's useless to

7 try to draw blood from stone. My suggestion is the following: That in

8 view of the fact that we will need to take -- reach a reasoned decision on

9 whether -- not whether the witnesses that you intend to drop will be

10 dropped, because that's your discretion, and we will not interfere with

11 that in any way, Mr. Wubben. You may come from a jurisdiction where that

12 is not so, but it is not so in this Tribunal.

13 But with regard to producing new witnesses, that is something in

14 which we definitely will put our feet -- or our foot, I mean, definitely.

15 And for that purpose, if they are already available, I would like you to

16 provide the Trial Chamber with a copy of their statements released to you

17 so that we will have at least an indication of what could be the substance

18 of their testimony, with a view to reaching a decision on whether there is

19 a justification in admitting them as new witnesses. And that could be

20 done between now and the end of the week, so that at least we will

21 dedicate Monday and Tuesday to go through this documentation, to go

22 through this documentation ourselves in preparation of the motion and

23 responses that we would be expecting in the meantime.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I know that already we projected to send

25 the most of them this afternoon and, of course, we are not able to yet

Page 7211

1 provide you with number 52.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, that I understand.

3 MR. WUBBEN: But the others will be provided.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But at least I can ask my staff to prepare a

5 dossier for us, including these statements, and we can meet and start

6 going through the exercise. All right.

7 Last, our legal officer will be approaching you next couple of

8 days on an outstanding matter that we have that would perhaps require a

9 meeting in my chamber Monday or Tuesday of next week, of the coming week,

10 to discuss developments on what we had discussed earlier. So you will

11 receive the communication in due course. Whether it will be Monday or

12 whether it will be Tuesday, I honestly don't know, because I have to

13 consult, of course, with Judge Eser and Judge Brydensholt, who have got

14 other work to do if we are not sitting on Monday and on Tuesday, and the

15 same applies to me. There is never enough time to cover what we have

16 outstanding. The workload that we have outstanding.

17 So I leave you with that. Tomorrow we will start with the witness

18 number 41 and with the clear understanding that we will finish with him

19 on -- not later than Friday. All right?

20 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Is there anything else you would like

22 to raise before we adjourn?

23 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

Page 7212

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

2 Then we can adjourn. Thank you.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.26 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of April,

5 2005 at 2.15 p.m.