Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7896

1 Friday, 6 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. Case, IT-03-68-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Registrar, and good morning to you.

10 And Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in a language you can

11 understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, ladies

13 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you and you may sit

15 down.

16 Appearances for the Prosecution?

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours and good morning to the

18 Defence. My name is Jan Wubben lead counsel for the Prosecution, and I'm

19 here together with my co-counsel Ms. Joanne Richardson and our case

20 manager is Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good

24 morning, my learned friends, my name is Vasvija Vidovic and together with

25 Mr. John Jones I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. With us are our legal

Page 7897

1 assistant Ms. Adisa Mehic and our CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you and your team.

3 Any preliminaries before we bring in the witness?

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, two issues. First issue is the

5 witness schedule according to the latest notifications by the

6 Prosecution. With respect to the witnesses we would like to file today to

7 circulate among parties a new witness schedule. We hope to do that by --

8 after the break.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Second issue is related to a chain of custody witness

11 and I requested Ms. Joanne Richardson to prepare.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Richardson?

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank, Your Honour. Good morning. Your Honour,

14 this matter is with respect to the recalling of the witness Nikola

15 Popovic. I think the matter was raised earlier this week and I don't know

16 if the Chamber and the Defence have had an opportunity to review the

17 transcript.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have reviewed the transcript. There is no

19 such reservation. However, to cut it short, if you are not planning to

20 bring this witness over, I still cannot pre-empt the issue of having him

21 recalled, should there be an ad hoc application motion by the Defence and

22 they of course would have to show cause why he should be recalled. In

23 other words, we would have -- we would require a -- very clearly spelled

24 out, the questions that they need to put to him and why they couldn't be

25 put earlier on.

Page 7898

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's the position. I mean we're -- I don't

3 think we need --

4 MS. RICHARDSON: And I thank you for that because that would have

5 been part of my submission this morning that in fact that the Defence be

6 required to spell out exactly what areas they'd like to raise that they

7 were not able to the last time he was here.


9 MS. RICHARDSON: And I would just like to advise the Court with

10 respect to the logbook that was turned over to our investigator that the

11 logbook was examined by the Defence. It is for all intents and purposes

12 the exact copy of the exact -- of the copy that was used here by

13 Mr. Popovic and was given over and that was promised to be turned over to

14 the investigator. There is, I believe, one additional element to the

15 original and that is there is a calendar page, but for all intents and

16 purposes, it is the exact same as the original and so with that said, I

17 think the Defence would certainly have to show good cause why they are

18 seeking --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't -- we don't have an application as yet.

20 So let's wait for the application and then we see and we talk about it

21 because you're trying to pre-empt the issue. You're also making a

22 statement instead of a submission or you're presenting the facts that --

23 what has the original is exactly the same as the copy provided earlier.

24 This should be made as a submission and not as a statement.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour I'll wait for the

Page 7899

1 Defence to make it that application.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones or Madam Vidovic might as well stand up

3 and say exactly the opposite. How do I know?

4 MS. RICHARDSON: I understand Your Honour, and if the Defence is

5 not prepared today to make a submission that's all I'll say on that

6 matter. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. I mean, I don't expect you

8 to stand up and respond to this. If you file -- if you need this

9 Mr. Popovic back here, to have him recalled, as I understand he's not

10 going to be brought forward by the Prosecution, then you need to file an

11 ad hoc application or motion, whatever you call it, and we will consider

12 it on its own merit. All right. Thank you.

13 Yes. Can we bring in the witness?

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Okanovic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You should be receiving interpretation of what I am

20 saying in English into your own language. It's important for me to have a

21 confirmation of this. If at any time there are problems with

22 interpretation, please let us know. I am the Presiding Judge in this

23 trial against Naser Oric, my name is Carmel Agius, and I come from Malta.

24 To my right I have Judge Hans Henrik Brydensholt from the Kingdom of

25 Denmark. To my left I have Judge Albin Eser from Germany. Together we

Page 7900

1 form the Trial Chamber in this case.

2 You are here to give evidence as a witness of the Prosecution and

3 our Rules require that before you do so, you make a solemn declaration,

4 something which is equivalent to an oath in some jurisdictions, to the

5 effect that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the

6 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of this

7 solemn declaration is contained on a piece of paper that Madam Usher is

8 going to hand to you now. Please read it out loud and that will be your

9 solemn undertaking with us.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Okanovic. You may sit down.

15 You are planned to testify over two days, today and then Monday,

16 when you are supposed to finish. Much depends on how brief and how

17 precise your answers will be. My suggestion to you is that you try to

18 answer the question, the whole question and nothing but the question and

19 not to give us information that is not being asked of you in the questions

20 that are put to you.

21 You will be asked a number of questions by Ms. Richardson and when

22 the -- what we call the examination-in-chief is finished, she will then be

23 followed by Mr. Jones, who is appearing for Naser Oric. So

24 Ms. Richardson.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7901

1 Examined by Ms. Richardson:

2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Okanovic. Please state your full name for the

3 record.

4 A. Good morning. My name is Milos Okanovic.

5 Q. And please confirm the following information, if I may lead just

6 briefly, Your Honour. You were born on the 19th of November 1949 and you

7 are of Serb ethnicity?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. You presently reside in Serbia in Grabovica?

10 A. Yes. Vhrpolje. That is a hamlet of Grabovica to be more precise.

11 Q. And your village or your hamlet is located across the Drina River

12 from Bjelovac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You resided in this hamlet of Grabovica in 1992; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You are a -- an electrical engineer by profession and you have

17 been doing this since 1976?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. You are presently employed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you are also a radio amateur?

22 A. I was. I don't have time for it now.

23 Q. You completed your compulsory military service in 1976?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were not mobilised during the war?

Page 7902

1 A. No, I wasn't.

2 Q. I'd like to ask Mr. Okanovic about your knowledge of the area of

3 Srebrenica and Bratunac. Prior to 1992 had you visited these areas?

4 A. From 1979 until 1983 I lived in Bratunac and worked in the tile

5 factory called Kaolin. I resided in Bratunac at that time.

6 Q. And had you ever visited Srebrenica?

7 A. Often, often in that period of time.

8 Q. Did there come a point in 1992, and I'll refer you specifically to

9 the -- early 1992, that you were aware that a conflict had erupted in and

10 around the area of Srebrenica?

11 A. Yes. Even before that, there were tensions and of course I

12 learned about all this, there was shooting on a daily basis.

13 Q. Could you tell us where, if you could, tell us where the shooting,

14 what areas the shooting occurred in?

15 A. From the area across the Drina. I lived near the Drina and you

16 could often hear shooting from that side, both nearby and far away.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, let's be a little bit -- I know that

18 in your previous question you had referred the witness to early in 1992

19 but let's be a little bit more specific as to when this shooting started.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Or when he started noticing these shootings.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Okanovic you heard His Honour's question. Could you tell us

24 exactly when it was in 1992 you first began hearing shooting?

25 A. I can't even say whether it was in 1992 or 1991. I can't speak

Page 7903

1 about the date now.

2 Q. Well, was there anything in particular that may have occurred in

3 1992 that made you aware that there was conflict in the Srebrenica area?

4 Other than the shooting.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Allow me to interrupt you.

6 When did the war start, Mr. Okanovic?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that period, but when precisely,

8 I don't know.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But did you hear the shooting before the war started

10 or after the war started?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the war started, that's when

12 the shooting started. There was no shooting before that.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So we've more or less fixed the date,

14 Ms. Richardson. Let's move.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. I would like to bring your attention to December of 1992. Do you

17 recall that particular month?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And specifically December 14th, 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, prior to December of 1992, I'd just like to take you back

22 briefly to the village of Bjelovac. Do you recall what the ethnic makeup

23 of the village was prior to December of 1992?

24 A. It was a mixed village before, before the beginning of the war.

25 There were both Serbs and Muslims living there.

Page 7904












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Page 7905












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Page 7910

1 Q. In December of 1992, do you know if there were -- if the village

2 was still mixed? In other words, were there still Serbs and Muslims

3 living there?

4 A. I assume not. I don't know because I wasn't there, but the war

5 had already broken out and they separated.

6 Q. And to your knowledge, which ethnic resided in the village of

7 Bjelovac in and around December of 1992?

8 A. As far as I know, Serbs.

9 Q. On December 14th, 1992, do you recall anything of significance

10 happening in the village of Bjelovac?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us what time you first became aware that something

13 was happening in the village?

14 A. Apart from the daily shooting, which didn't mean anything special,

15 houses were set on fire and you could see the smoke rising from the hamlet

16 of Sikiric, I think that's what it was called, in Bjelovac, the shooting

17 was somewhat more intensive, which meant that some sort of operations were

18 underway. Later on, you could see planes -- well, that was it.

19 Q. Let's just go back just a bit. What were you able to see from

20 your village in Grabovica?

21 A. I was able to see only burning houses. I couldn't see who was

22 setting fire to them or how. I could only see that the houses were

23 burning. I didn't see the flames because the houses were built of brick,

24 so the flames remained inside, but you could see the smoke billowing out

25 and later on, at about 9.00, I was able to see the planes circling above

Page 7911

1 and firing and also being fired at.

2 Q. How long were the houses burning before the planes arrived?

3 A. About half an hour or an hour before that, I went out of my house

4 and saw that. That was before I took my camera. It was about an hour

5 later. But the houses were already burning when I saw them.

6 Q. You stated -- you also testified that you heard shooting. Could

7 you tell in what direction the shooting was coming from?

8 A. From the direction of Bjelovac.

9 Q. Could you tell -- it was the shootings actually occurring in

10 Bjelovac?

11 A. Probably.

12 Q. And could you tell who was doing the shooting? Were you able to

13 see that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did there come a time that you began to videotape the events that

16 you were observing?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you tell us exactly when you started videotaping and where

19 you were when you began videotaping?

20 A. I can't be precise but it was around 9.00. I can't be precise

21 about the time. On the videotape, I put the date and the time, and you

22 can see that on the videotape. You asked me something else?

23 Q. I apologise. I'll ask you one thing at a time. Where were you

24 when you were filming?

25 A. Oh, yes, yes. I was on the roof of a low building when I was

Page 7912

1 videotaping this.

2 Q. What were you able to --

3 A. And that building is in my yard.

4 Q. What were you able to videotape?

5 A. What I could see with the naked eye, the smoke billowing from the

6 houses, and you can hear the shooting and the planes participating in the

7 fighting, obviously participating in the fighting.

8 Q. Were there other people around as you were filming the events that

9 were occurring in Bjelovac?

10 A. There were some villagers around me but I don't know exactly who

11 or how many because I don't remember anymore. A lot of time has elapsed

12 since then.

13 Q. All right?

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time if I could have a

15 moment to be sure that we are ready to show the tape? Okay. At this time

16 we had like to show the videotape to the witness and to have him narrate

17 for us as we are looking at the film. Your Honour we do have transcripts

18 of the videotape to hand out and this is Prosecution's Exhibit 316.

19 MR. JONES: I'm just wondering if there is a B/C/S version. That

20 would assist, obviously, ourselves and our client.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a B/C/S version, Ms. Richardson?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: No we don't have the transcript in B/C/S but they

23 are speaking in B/C/S. But we can provide this later.

24 MR. JONES: All right. Fair enough.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I think he should be in a position to

Page 7913

1 hear the --

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's really for us just to

3 verify as we go along that it's correct. Yes, we'll verify the

4 translation.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: And it is a draft translation, Your Honour, and

7 as we are reading the translation it may be the case that the witness may

8 be able to even give us some additional information that's not here. So

9 we'll see as we are reading along.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps one other thing that could be done is the

11 interpreters who will be also hearing the original sound track could

12 translate as we go along without looking at this, in other words, if it is

13 at all possible, so that in the meantime we can, while we listen to what

14 you have to say, check whether there is any particular variance with the

15 draft translation that we have.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, that very much depends on the sound

17 quality. Usually the sound quality is far too poor.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's too poor then obviously that can't be done.

19 But let's be positive about it and see how it works out. Let's start.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour for the record the video starts at

21 26.08.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 084.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: 084. Thank you.

24 [Videotape played]


Page 7914

1 Q. Mr. Okanovic - can you just pause for a moment - can you just tell

2 us what we've just seen? What are we looking at in the video?

3 A. This is a fraction of the neighbouring house. That's all I could

4 see. Plus the date and the time that this was taken.

5 Q. And this is the video that you filmed on December 14th?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the question was put while the

8 video was freezed at 26.223. Thank you.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sound you can hear is the sound

11 of the plane. And in the background, you can see smoke rising from houses

12 over near Bjelovac or Sikiric.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, the statement that the

14 witness has just made was made while the video was freezed at 26.315.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Sikiric. I can tell now

17 with certainty.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the statement made by the

19 witness is when the video is freezed at 26.495.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the plane that was involved

22 in combat.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness made this

24 statement while the video was freezed at 27.458.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 7915

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sound you can hear is someone

2 firing at the plane.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, this statement was made by the

4 witness while the video was freezed at 27.587.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Mr. Okanovic could you tell -- I'll repeat the question. Could

8 you tell what type of plane that is that we are seeing on the video?

9 A. I think this is a plane normally used for agricultural purposes.

10 I'm not sure about the type. It's a very small plane, though.

11 Q. For the record, the witness's answer to the type of plane is

12 28.225?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. Mr. Okanovic, we just saw something fly across the screen. Could

17 you tell us -- could we go back just a bit?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear the interpretation.


21 Q. All right. We just saw something fly across the screen on the

22 videotape. Could you tell us what that was?

23 A. Those were pigeons. If you rewind the tape slightly, I wasn't

24 looking closely but I think those were pigeons. Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness is referring to

Page 7916

1 the still that occurs at 29.018.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are pigeons, yes.


5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we see pigeons flying through

7 again.

8 [Videotape played]


10 Q. Mr. Okanovic, we see the plane flying over an area. Could you

11 tell us what area the plane is flying over?

12 A. I think it's flying over Bjelovac. It must have been crossing

13 into Serbia because the whole area is very small. The way I see it now,

14 it's probably flying right over my head.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, for the record, the statement made by the

16 witness at 30.118.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm taping the plane from

19 below, which would put it roughly over our heads.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, this occurs at 30.194.

21 [Videotape played].

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you can hear now, the

23 conversation, this is someone next to me using a ham radio, a hand-held

24 radio. I'm not sure who the speaker is but this is radio communication.

25 That's the voices you can hear.

Page 7917

1 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement is made at 31.321.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is -- someone standing next to

4 me is talking. This is no longer radio communication. It's just someone

5 standing next to me.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This statement was made by the witness at

7 32.423.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are commenting on the way the

10 plane is going around and what the plane is doing.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This statement is made for the record at

12 32.581.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my voice.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, this statement is made at

16 33.213.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, again, the person standing next

19 to me is saying that there is a house on fire, so there must be smoke

20 coming out from somewhere.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement by the witness is

22 made at 33.486.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is obviously a young boy there

25 addressing me as uncle and asking me, "Miko is the one flying the plane,"

Page 7918

1 but I have no idea.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record this statement is made by the witness

3 at 34.152.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you can stop the tape, please.

6 You can also hear a cock crow and hens or chickens. Somebody's cock. So

7 the timing on this video must be correct.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, this statement is made by the

9 witness at 34.378.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, this young boy is asking me

12 who is firing? And I'm replying, well, it's not our men because our men

13 weren't shooting. That's what I told him. And when I said, "Our men,"

14 the implication was Bosnian Serbs.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record this statement is made by the witness

16 at 34.561.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, we are commenting what's

19 happening to our men, have very been surrounded, have they been cut off

20 simply because we can't see anybody. All you can see is the general view.

21 You can see the houses but there are no men around to be seen.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement is made by the

23 witness at 35.155.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person is saying, let's go and

Page 7919

1 give them a hand. That's what he's saying.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement is made by the

3 witness at 35.289.

4 [Videotape played]


6 Q. Okay.

7 A. This is something that I didn't see myself. There is someone

8 shouting somewhere for me to try to tape some people carrying something,

9 carrying sacks, apparently, but this is not something I saw at the time,

10 nor was it something that I could tape.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement is made by the

12 witness at 36.121.

13 Yes. You can ask the question yourself, Judge Eser.

14 JUDGE ESER: The voices which we heard have these voices come from

15 people around you or from somewhere else? The last voices which we had

16 heard.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person must be standing quite

18 close to me because the voice is clear but there is another person

19 shouting that wasn't so clear. So this other person may have been 20 or

20 30 metres away from where we were standing and he was probably in a

21 position to see something else happening but from where I was standing

22 there was no way that I could see it happening, what he said was

23 happening.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser, and thank you, Witness.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 7920

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is something else here. There

2 was quite a crowd there. Some people were near the road and some had

3 climbed on to the roofs to watch, and you can hear a great many voices.

4 It's difficult to make out who was saying what. I tried to focus on the

5 taping.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. For the record this statement is made by

7 the witness at 36.289.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can hear people commenting over

10 the radio that's next to me.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record this statement is made by the witness

12 at 37.199.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these comments are made over the

15 radio.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement is made by the

17 witness at 37.536.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is someone commenting over the

20 radio and there is a reference to a bird here but the person probably

21 means just a plane.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record this statement is made by the witness

23 at 38.279. Yes, Ms. Richardson.


25 Q. Mr. Okanovic, the houses that we see in front of us that's on the

Page 7921

1 screen at the moment, where are those houses? Is that in your village?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's be more specific. In the foreground, in the

3 foreground, not in the background. In the foreground. This is what

4 you're being asked.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These houses are all in my immediate

7 neighbourhood. In the background, you can see the Drina River, which is

8 the border line, and right behind it, you can see houses burning. That

9 means is that this whole field, you can see here, belongs to Serbia and

10 across the river, you find Bosnia and Bjelovac more specifically, I think,

11 the hamlet of Sikiric. The centre of Bjelovac is further down to the

12 right.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Witness, and that has been most

14 helpful. For the record we were still at 38.279 when the witness was

15 explaining this.

16 Ms. Richardson.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. We can play the tape.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these houses you can see here

20 are in Serbia. That's my neighbourhood.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This statement is made by the witness at 39.000.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Mr. Okanovic, the voices we just heard, can you tell us if those

25 are voices of people around you or is this also voices that you're picking

Page 7922

1 up on the radio?

2 A. This is radio communication. This is a conversation occurring

3 over the radio.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a call sign from Kojak to

6 someone referred to as red or green. I'm not sure. This is a textbook

7 example of radio communication.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the question was put and answered at

9 39.368.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This comment being made is being

12 made by someone who is standing next to me. This person is counting the

13 bombs that were dropped by the plane.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This statement is made at 39.465.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. JONES: Your Honour, just for the record, the last one was

17 39.495 rather than 465. I thought I just correct that for --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It was reversed a bit and that is what I consider to

19 be the still is it.

20 MR. JONES: Fine. I was looking at it at the time, and it was to

21 help, really.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not going to make a difference, Mr. Jones.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This sound right now, a tractor was

25 probably driving by down the village road.

Page 7923

1 JUDGE AGIUS: This statement is made by the witness at 40.386.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're saying now that the plane

4 hit something. That's someone next to me commenting on this.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record this statement is made by the witness

6 at 42.164. Judge Eser, do you want to put your question? It's okay.

7 Thank you. I think we better put it actually. En passant during the last

8 minute or so we did again see across the screen things flying. Those I

9 assume are still pigeons or birds.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were a lot of pigeons there.

11 I forgot to show you a lot of birds, a lot of pigeons on the roof. So

12 everything that flies by quickly, that's them.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

14 [Videotape played].

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are my neighbours standing

16 around me and commenting on what's going on.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: This statement is made by the witness at 43.028.

18 [Videotape played].

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Another thing. They are talking

20 about someone but I really didn't see anyone. They are talking as if they

21 can see somebody. I tried but I couldn't see anyone.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness makes this statement at

23 43.249.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This first part that you see here is

Page 7924

1 the fields in Serbia, and behind the trees is the River Drina, and behind

2 that is Bosnia.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness makes this statement at

4 43.520.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These houses you can see here now,

7 they are in Bosnia.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness makes this statement at

9 42.000.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, excuse me, it's 44, just for the

11 record.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 44, yes, thank you. Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

13 44.000.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm standing on the bank of the

16 Drina now. I've arrived at the river bank.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record the witness makes this statement at

18 44.300.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To avoid being seen, I was behind

21 the trees. There are lots of trees along the river bank.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement is made by the

23 witness at 44.472.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now you can hear shooting, that's

Page 7925

1 probably some kind of fighting going on and everything you see now is in

2 Bosnia. This is the hamlet of Sikiric, approximately.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record the witness makes this statement at

4 45.452.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Another comment by your leave. I am

7 very close to it now, but even now I didn't manage to see anyone. I

8 didn't see any soldiers or anyone. There was shooting but you couldn't

9 see anyone. They were probably all very well concealed.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness makes this statement at

11 46.172.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, this is another type of plane,

14 obviously, with two wings, and it threw something out, a bomb or

15 something.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness makes this statement at

17 47.564. Yes, Judge Eser?

18 JUDGE ESER: In the meantime, quite a bit of time elapsed. Had --

19 when you took the last sequence of the video, have you been still down at

20 the Drina River or had you come back to your house? And where did the

21 voices come from which we heard in this last part?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In this last part, I've

23 returned home, and I was taping from my home. I spent a short time on the

24 river bank. I don't know whether somebody shot at me on purpose or

25 whether it was by accident, but I felt a bullet whiz past and then I

Page 7926

1 withdrew. Although I didn't see anyone on the other side. So I was on

2 the bank of the Drina for a very short period of time. And, of course, it

3 wasn't normal for me to be there because there was a lot of shooting, and

4 it was nearby so you could get hit by a stray bullet.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.

6 JUDGE ESER: And the voices that we heard have been again people

7 who have been around you while you were taking the video; is that correct?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. These are children. I can

9 hear children's voices. This is all in my hamlet. There were some other

10 people taking videos as well. I don't know those people.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Judge Eser's questions and the

12 answers by the witness were made and given while we were still at 47.564.

13 We can proceed now, thank you.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I do have a question for

15 Mr. Okanovic.

16 Q. Mr. Okanovic, in the still shot we are looking at on the video you

17 said it appears this the plane was dropping something and we could see

18 something on the video. Do you recall what that was?

19 A. Probably some sort of bomb. They wouldn't be dropping cakes. I

20 don't know.

21 Q. And do you recall, once -- if you saw an explosion on the ground

22 immediately after?

23 A. I don't recall precisely but if you play back the tape, sometimes

24 there would be an explosion right afterwards and sometimes not. Maybe

25 something went wrong with the bombs. It wasn't always the case that there

Page 7927

1 was an explosion immediately afterwards, and some of them fell into the

2 River Drina.

3 Q. Now, you also testified that this is another plane. Were both of

4 the planes that you observed that day dropping what appeared to be bombs?

5 Or was it just one?

6 A. Probably both, but I can't remember now. Probably both.

7 Q. And my last question with respect to the planes, when the planes

8 arrived, did they immediately start dropping bombs or did this occur a

9 little while after?

10 A. Let me tell you about these details, I can see it better on the

11 videotape now. I can't recall now because a lot of time has elapsed and I

12 have forgotten. When I see the video, it jogs my memory but as for the

13 details, I can't remember them now.

14 Q. Thank you?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Ms. Richardson's questions were put

16 and answered by the witness while we were still at 47.564.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you can see now is explosions

19 in the woods above Sikiric. It means that it dropped bombs into the

20 forest.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement was made by the

22 witness at 48.193.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my comment. I recognise my

25 own voice. I'm saying that he was targeting something in the forest.

Page 7928

1 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this statement is made by the

2 witness at 48.559.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you can see quite clearly that

5 it's a different type of plane.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness makes this

7 statement at 49.073.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are all voices you can hear

10 from around me, and what you can see is the hamlet of Sikiric.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness makes this statement at

12 50.376.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's us commenting and saying that

15 they are all mixed up, you don't know who is where.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness makes this statement at

17 51.504.

18 [Videotape played]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there more?

20 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, that completes the ends of the

21 video at 5318.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

23 MR. JONES: Your Honour, just for the record could -- we just

24 wanted to note now that we consider the transcript is incomplete, that

25 there are things marked as inaudible which are actually audible. It's a

Page 7929

1 matter we'll deal with in cross-examination and there some other things

2 which are wrong as well, which we'll deal with subsequently, but just to

3 mention it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, as I said before it's a draft

6 translation.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: We anticipate that there were things not in the

9 transcript.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sorry. Ms. Richardson, we will have the break

11 not at 10.30 as usual but at 10.45. So you've got another 20, 24, 22, 25,

12 up to 25 minutes maximum.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Very good, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, I just wanted to remind everyone there will

15 be two sessions today with one break in between. And the sessions will be

16 one hour and 45 minutes' length rather than one hour 30 minutes. I mean,

17 it's -- and we'll finish at 1.00, roughly.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: I do believe we need a P number for our

21 transcript that we will --


23 MS. RICHARDSON: -- tender.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you sure you do not have one transcript like

25 this already handed in? I am under the impression that we had seen this

Page 7930

1 before. Maybe I -- I saw it on the screen as well but --

2 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, I'm advised that is not the

3 case.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. This will be P ...


6 JUDGE AGIUS: 536, thank you. P536.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, why don't we give it P316.1? I think it

9 will be better. Does it create a problem for you, Mr. Registrar? Just

10 make sure that we don't have a P316 point something already. That's all.

11 So this will be P316.1. And I'm repeating it because on line 14,

12 page 28, although I had said it already, it did not show up in the

13 transcript.

14 Yes, let's move forward.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Okanovic, I'd like to ask you a few yes, sir about the

17 comments that were made by yourself and others on the videotape. Well,

18 first of all, I'd like to ask you if you recall how long the conflict that

19 you were observing lasted in Bjelovac? The fighting.

20 A. The whole day. I don't recall precisely, but I'm sure it was the

21 whole day.

22 Q. You made a comment on the tape about -- I believe you said "What

23 is happening to our men?" Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what you

24 meant by that comment, as you were observing the fighting in Bjelovac?

25 A. Well, I've explained when I was saying ours, our side, I was

Page 7931

1 referring to the Bosnian Serbs.

2 Q. And were you able to see any of Bosnian Serb soldiers?

3 A. No.

4 Q. There was another comment made, I believe by someone standing and

5 you explained that they were all mixed up as you were watching the

6 fighting. What did you mean by that?

7 A. That was a comment about what was happening to our men. We were

8 saying that without knowing who was where or seeing anyone, we simply knew

9 what the situation out there was and we were commenting on it. But I'm

10 sure that the person standing next to me couldn't see anybody either at

11 that point in time.

12 Q. Did you later learn, if in fact there were Bosnian Serb soldiers

13 during the attack on the ground?

14 A. As far as I know, they were only villagers. They probably had

15 lines that they held. I assume there was a demarcation line. But there

16 was no need to keep troops there because it was only some ten, 15 or 20

17 houses. I can't be precise about the number, that were inhabited. I

18 don't believe that there were soldiers in the village itself, although I

19 don't know for sure. My answer is I don't know.

20 Q. You also mentioned -- testified that there was conversation that

21 could be heard on the tape, that was audible because of the radio

22 communication or a radio that you had. Could you tell us the voices that

23 you heard, were those Serbs or Muslims talking on the radio?

24 A. I don't know who, but my assumption is it was Serbs.

25 Q. And what do you base that assumption on?

Page 7932

1 A. In those actions, they used the radio much more than the Muslim

2 side did. That's one thing. And although you can tell a little bit by

3 the accent, that was not the rule. We who lived close by could guess more

4 or less who was who by their accent, but this was not the rule. You

5 couldn't be sure by the accent. I assumed that these were Serbs.

6 Q. You also testified that you believe that you could have been hit

7 by a bullet. Could you just explain for us exactly where did you believe

8 that bullet would have come from? Was it from the area in Bosnia where

9 there was the fighting?

10 A. That's when I was on the Drina. There was combat going on, and

11 there could have been a stray bullet from the Bosnian side, and I could

12 have been hit without being fired at deliberately. Although, at the time,

13 I didn't see anyone near the Drina. I tried to look closely. I tried to

14 spot someone but there was no one around.

15 Q. Was there any firing coming from your village on the Serbian side?

16 A. I think later on there was some sort of a combat vehicle in the

17 afternoon, but they must have crossed the Drina River from their side

18 because our troops just weren't there. How do I know that? Later on, at

19 some point, we asked our local police to set up a guard to protect us from

20 attacks. We didn't have a proper army and we had no weapons. We might as

21 well have ended up being the victims.

22 Q. And why did you feel it necessary to set up a village guard?

23 A. We knew there was very little food to go around, and it was

24 unlikely that someone would come and try to kill us just because they

25 hated us. It would more likely have been for the food.

Page 7933

1 Q. And when you say someone, you mean from the Bosnian side and --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, one moment.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one correction of

5 the transcript. The transcript has not reflected the witness's words for

6 some lines now and if we can have clarification from the witness, the

7 witness said he knew the Muslims didn't have food and the transcript says

8 there was no food around the place, and it's not quite the same as the

9 witness says so if we can have clarification on that point, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Okanovic, do you agree with what has just been

11 said by Madam Vidovic?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I agree.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, yes, Ms. Richardson, you may

14 proceed.


16 Q. Were you afraid that there would be looting of your village by

17 individuals from across the river, the Bosnian side?

18 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I think it's an inappropriately leading

19 question. My learned friend could simply ask what fears, if any, did you

20 have. There was a suggestion there that looting had indeed been taking

21 place.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection, sustained. Could you rephrase your

23 question, Ms. Richardson.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: And, Your Honour --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think he's already answered it.

Page 7934

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, he did. This is why --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We might as well move forward.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Fine, Your Honour.

4 Q. When did you set up the village guard, Mr. Okanovic?

5 A. Once our official authorities failed to do anything about it, we

6 self-organised, in a manner of speaking, and each hamlet had its own

7 internal arrangement not to go out at night, and if someone needed to

8 visit someone else at night, they were supposed to make their presence

9 known and not to leave without announcing their departure so that we knew

10 exactly who was moving about and who was knocking at our door. There was

11 no public lighting to begin with so dark meant literally dark. It meant

12 pitch black.

13 Q. Did you --

14 A. If I may elaborate, even this village guard -- we stopped that

15 once we realised that there was no danger, because nothing happened.

16 After 10 days, we realised that nothing much had been happening and once

17 the local authorities had ordered us to dig the trenches along the Drina

18 for them to stand guard, we refused and they refused to provide security.

19 But eventually there was no need for that.

20 Q. Did -- was the village guard set up after the attack on Bjelovac

21 after the 14th of December?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And just so that this is clear, the vehicle that you said that

24 appeared on the 14th, that appeared on your side, on the Serbian side,

25 could you tell us if that vehicle was firing across the river into the

Page 7935

1 Bjelovac area?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. That vehicle was firing?

4 A. Yes. But it was quite far away so I couldn't tell the make.

5 Q. So was this JNA, do you know?

6 A. I can't say. It was too far to say.

7 Q. And, so that we are clear, and this was on the Serbian side; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what time of the day did they appear, did that vehicle appear?

11 A. I saw the vehicle around 1500 hours or between 15 and 1600 hours.

12 Q. And the fighting had been going on for some time?

13 A. The fighting had been drawing to a close by that time.

14 Q. Do you know who was responsible for the attack on Bjelovac, the

15 hamlet -- and the hamlet of Sikiric?

16 MR. JONES: Who, if anyone. I don't know, it's -- perhaps the

17 question isn't objectionable but there isn't much foundation laid for how

18 this witness would have any knowledge at all about it and it does suggest

19 that maybe one person or one unit is responsible for what's being

20 characterised as an attack, which the witness also didn't adopt the word

21 attack.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: As far as that is concerned, the use of the word

23 attack, I agree 100 per cent with you. What worries me about the rest is

24 that the witness has already told us that he never managed to see a single

25 individual across the river. So -- his question was that whoever it was

Page 7936

1 over there, they must have been pretty well concealed.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, please feel free to do so.


5 Q. Did you later learn who, if anyone, whom was responsible for the

6 burning of the houses on the 14th?

7 A. There is no way I can know that. There is no way I can commit

8 myself. The assumption is the Muslim forces, because Serbs lived in the

9 area at the time. As to who it was, and who was involved in the fighting,

10 the assumption is that the fighting was between Serbs and Muslims but once

11 again I must say I simply didn't see anyone.

12 Q. At this time --

13 A. All right.

14 Q. At this time, Your Honour, I'd like to have a map shown to the

15 witness. If I could have the assistance of the usher, we do have copies.

16 The larger map is for the witness and copies, smaller copies, for everyone

17 else.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You gave me one extra.


20 Q. Mr. Okanovic, if you could take a look at this map and locate your

21 village and also locate the village of Bjelovac?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, you have to put it further up. We need to

23 see that -- we need to see that curve that there is on the map. It's

24 further up. I mean the opposite. Yeah, that's it. And if we could

25 centre that loop around that loop, and zoom in that area, please? Yup.

Page 7937

1 No, we are going to lose it now. All right. Okay. That's perfect.

2 That's perfect.


4 Q. Mr. Okanovic, if you could take a pen and circle --

5 A. Excuse me, I made a mistake here. Grabovica is right here and I'm

6 well into Bosnia. This is Grabovica.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Correct.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points at the name

10 Grabovica on the map which is at ten o' clock or between ten and eleven o'

11 clock of the loop where -- with the words "Drina." Yes.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps we can have the witness --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He can encircle that spot, the name, and put his

14 initials against it. Just put the name of your village in a circle,

15 please. All right. Okay. Can you please put your initials against that

16 small circle that you have -- yes, that's Grabovica, yes?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So the -- for the record the witness

19 also encircles, apart from Grabovica, he encircles Vhrpolje, which is

20 between nine and ten o' clock with respect to the same loop mentioned

21 earlier. Just put your initials against those two circles, please, if you

22 can call them a circle. Thank you, sir.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Also, Your Honour, if we could have the witness

24 circle Bjelovac, which is directly across.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I think we can see them now. We don't need to

Page 7938

1 ask the witness to point them out to us. Once he has pointed where he

2 was, we can see what he could see across.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine.

4 Q. Mr. Okanovic, if you could just show us -- point to what area the

5 plane was flying over? You don't have to mark it, if you could just point

6 to the area.

7 MR. JONES: Which plane, because there were several planes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Because there were more than one, actually.


10 Q. The planes which were flying over?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them one by one, if you can remember, of

12 course. The first plane, where did it -- where did it first appear from?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They all came from this direction,

14 from Bratunac. Some of them may have turned around at one point but they

15 came back and they all came from this direction. They circled around here

16 and then they would fly straight back.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So for the record, the witness, while

18 explaining, while making his statement, is pointing on the map to Bratunac

19 and then drawing a line towards the loop mentioned earlier, where on the

20 Serbian side there are Grabovica and Vhrpolje, and on the Bosnian side

21 there is Sikirici and Bjelovac.

22 MR. JONES: Could I just add, Your Honour, and if the witness

23 agrees that the witness also traced a line going over the road from

24 Bratunac as being the route of the planes, as I saw it in any event, and

25 perhaps he can confirm that.

Page 7939

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You've heard Mr. Jones. Would you agree to

2 that, Mr. Okanovic?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Jones. Yes, Ms. Richardson.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm looking at the time and it

6 appears --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we need -- yes, Judge Eser.

8 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Okanovic before we leave the map, you told us you

9 had been down from your house to the Drina River. Could you indicate the

10 spot from where you took the video when you have been went -- went, had

11 been down to the river? Could you spot it on the map?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was videoing right

13 here from this small circle, and if you want the exact angle, I'll draw a

14 line for you. It was in the direction of Sikiric so it was not at a right

15 angle to the river because you have Bjelovac at a right angle and this is

16 the centre of Bjelovac. If you draw a straight line from my house this

17 would be the centre. It was obvious that the fighting was going on in

18 Sikiric, the hamlet of Sikiric.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness has drawn two lines,

20 starting from the circle he had put earlier on near Grabovica. One in the

21 direction of Bjelovac and the other in the direction of Sikiric.

22 JUDGE ESER: But Mr. Okanovic you have not completely answered my

23 question. I wanted to know which way you took from your house to the

24 Drina River and from which point on the Drina River you took the video.

25 Was it opposite Bjelovac or was it opposite Sikiric?

Page 7940

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the two. I'll try to mark

2 the spot roughly for you where I was on the Drina. It might have been

3 around here. The houses you can see in the footage, the ones burning,

4 they are over here. Do you want me to draw a circle? It might be around

5 these parts.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness has drawn a circle

7 around an area which is at 11.00 above Sikirici.

8 I think we can stop here for the time being. We will reconvene at

9 quarter past 11.00. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.48 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Okanovic, you testified -- you testified that earlier that

15 there were approximately 15 houses. I'd just like to clarify -- in

16 Bjelovac, and I'd just like to clarify with you, were you talking about

17 the entire Bjelovac area or just Sikiric, the hamlet itself?

18 A. I can't give you the number of houses. I don't know the exact

19 number. It may be 18. It may be 10. It may as well be 30. You

20 shouldn't take my word for it because I really don't know the exact number

21 of houses and the clash that occurred obviously took place in Sikiric. It

22 certainly wasn't Bjelovac. At least there was nothing being burned in

23 Bjelovac. Were there any clashes in Bjelovac further down, I simply don't

24 know. There were sounds of shooting coming from that general direction

25 but you couldn't specify where from exactly.

Page 7941

1 Q. Thank you. Were you able to see if there were individuals trying

2 to cross the river from the Bosnian side into the Serbian -- into Serbia?

3 A. When I was on the Drina, there was a boat carrying someone from

4 Bosnia, ferrying them to the other side. There was a wounded person

5 there, middle aged. They ferried this man across the river and took him

6 to the hospital and that's all I saw. The boat and then later on the boat

7 went further down the Drina. It wasn't doing any serious transport work

8 and it didn't go back to Bosnia. I just saw it leave down the Drina but I

9 didn't take any footage because that was at night and there was this

10 wounded man who needed to be ferried across.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's give this map that we have been using

12 before the break a number, please. It will be 536, correct? P536.

13 Yes, Ms. Richardson.


15 Q. From Grabovica, is there -- you mentioned -- you testified that

16 you -- from where you were, you were unable to see individuals necessarily

17 on the other side in Sikiric. Is there any point, location in Grabovica

18 that it's -- you have a better vision of the other side, looking into

19 Bjelovac-Sikiric area?

20 A. You could have a much better vision from the surrounding hills,

21 especially if you had a pair of binoculars to use. With the naked eye,

22 though, it would have been quite a distance, a kilometre and a half

23 perhaps. It was very difficult to spot individual persons. Secondly,

24 there were clashes taking place and people had to hide and conceal

25 themselves but if I had seen any people, somebody else would have seen

Page 7942

1 them too but it strikes me as logical that there was no one to be seen.

2 Q. On the -- on the tape, the videotape, we could hear and you

3 yourself stated that there were people commenting on people that -- at

4 least that it was apparent from their comments that they could see people

5 on the other side although you weren't able to see them; is that correct?

6 MR. JONES: I object. That's a mischaracterisation of the

7 evidence given. The witness said people next to him claimed to be

8 essentially seeing people but he didn't think they were actually were able

9 to --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, correct. Objection sustained. That is

11 precisely what the witness stated earlier on. At one moment he even said

12 "I can't understand how they could see anything themselves either."

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I withdraw the question.

14 Q. You testified that you had a radio with you on the day that you

15 were filming --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think I have heard the witness say that.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, well, I can put the question another

18 way --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: -- and perhaps it will become clearer.

21 Q. The voices that you said was coming over a radio, could you tell

22 us exactly where this radio was?

23 A. The radio was tucked into my belt. It was a hand-held

24 transportable radio station. The thing usually referred to as a

25 walkie-talkie.

Page 7943

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour at this time I'd like to have the

2 witness be shown a photograph.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I see the photograph before it's shown to the

4 witness, please? Yes. I wouldn't like or, rather, I don't want you to

5 show the photograph to the witness before you actually ask him what kind

6 of a radio it was.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour, I can put the

8 preliminary questions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you show him the photograph.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour, I can put the

11 preliminary questions to him.

12 Q. Could you tell us about the radio you had, what kind of radio was

13 it, and do you recall the make of it?

14 A. I don't recall the make. It was a Jessie [phoen] walkie-talkie, I

15 think, of Japanese make. It's 144/146 megahertz. It's used by ham radio

16 operators, but that was the range. So we were able to listen to the

17 police and they were using a higher frequency. It was a hand-held

18 transportable radio.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I'd like the photograph

20 shown to the witness.

21 Q. Mr. Okanovic, if you could take a look at the photograph that's

22 before you, and tell the Trial Chamber whether this radio is similar to

23 the one that you had with you on the 14th of December.

24 A. This is a Motorola. But it's more or less the same thing. It had

25 a key board and it looked like this. This is probably a 5-watt device.

Page 7944

1 I'm not sure about the range. It can have different ranges. It can have

2 144 or 130. I'm not sure which type this one is. But it's very much like

3 this one.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'd like to have this tendered.


6 MS. RICHARDSON: Noting, of course, the difference that the

7 witness indicated.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So this will be P537 [Realtime transcript

9 read in error "P357"].

10 MS. RICHARDSON: I'd like the witness to just look at the

11 photograph one more time when it's finished being marked.

12 Q. With respect to the range of the radio you had, could you tell us

13 whether or not you made any adjustments to the radio you had which enabled

14 you to get better frequency or range?

15 A. This is a device whose range depends very much on the lie of the

16 land, and this applies to every kind of device. If the conditions are

17 good, if the area is not hilly, the range would be up to five kilometres.

18 If you use this device from a hilltop, the range can be increased. If you

19 use an elevated position. But if you have an external aerial. If you

20 take this aerial off and use an external one, then you can dramatically

21 increase the range both for reception and for emission. And then you can

22 use it as a fixed radio.

23 Q. And were you able to make these changes to your own radio?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. I can remove the photograph.

Page 7945

1 With respect to this -- the radio that you just described, could

2 you tell the Trial Chamber what you used this radio for? What were you

3 able to do with this radio?

4 A. I could use it to communicate with persons who were in possession

5 of this same sort of device or a similar device and who were within the

6 range.

7 Q. Did there come a time that you were in fact using this radio prior

8 to the events on December 14th?

9 A. I'm not sure if it's important why I obtained the radio in the

10 first place. Do you want me to explain that, to give you the reason why I

11 had it before the clash started?

12 Q. I think that would be helpful to the Trial Chamber.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Certainly. Go ahead.


15 Q. So my question would be when did you first obtain this radio and

16 why, if you could just tell the Trial Chamber.

17 A. I obtained not one but three radios. I wanted to create a

18 long-distance telephone. I don't know whether I can explain to anyone

19 exactly how this works. Before the conflict, I did not have a telephone

20 in that village. I used a telephone that was in Ljubovija and through a

21 telephone mediator, I made a receiver and a hand-held radio station which

22 I had, and I used this as a long distance telephone.

23 Q. When did you start using the radio -- this radio itself, the radio

24 that you just testified about?

25 A. I can't tell you with any precision. I really don't recall the

Page 7946

1 date.

2 Q. Was it during --

3 A. But maybe two or three years at least before the outbreak of the

4 war.

5 Q. All right. If you could think back to when the conflict arose in

6 and around Srebrenica, did you have the radio then?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And were you using it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what were you using it for?

11 A. I already had a telephone at home by that time. I used to send it

12 as a telephone so I could send a signal from Ljubovija to Grabovica. That

13 was about three or four kilometres away as the crow flies. But then I

14 used it as a kind of phone because we didn't have mobile phones at that

15 time. When the conflict broke out, then, of course, I joined in the

16 communications. I communicated with those people because the telephone

17 lines had been cut. Their telephones weren't working. And many of those

18 people there, both Serbs and Muslims, came to us for assistance. They

19 wanted to find out where someone was, whether they were all right.

20 Someone would contact us from Bosnia on the radio station. They would

21 give us a telephone number and say, please call this person and tell them

22 that I'm fine. And there was no rule -- there were both Serbs and

23 Muslims. We carried out this service for everyone.

24 Q. And how often did you engage in this service? Was it on a daily

25 basis?

Page 7947

1 A. Well, I wasn't there every day. At that time, I was working on a

2 cigarette factory in Podgorica, installing it. I was working in Centar

3 and Coka [phoen] so I wasn't there every day. But when I was there I

4 assisted as much as I could, but I can't really tell you precisely how

5 much time I spent doing that.

6 Q. In addition to being contacted for the purpose of communicating

7 with family members and assisting in that manner, were you able to listen

8 to conversations as well? Could you tell the --

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the reply.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the Trial Chamber did. He said "yes."


12 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber which -- who you were able to

13 listen to -- could you tell what you were listening -- who the individuals

14 that were speaking?

15 A. How to explain this. It was working channel, as they call it, a

16 frequency left open for communication among all, and there were both Serbs

17 and Muslims using it. And the communications were quite correct, at least

18 as far as I listened in. The communications were about who was where,

19 there was even a lot of music. And I'm sure that special conversations

20 were carried out on other frequencies. These were usual conversations,

21 normal conversations. Someone might lose patience. For example, on one

22 occasion, I heard that those were Serbs, I heard the person asking that

23 someone should relieve him from his guard duty. Otherwise they would both

24 abandon the place. And he even mentioned the name of the place, even

25 though everybody was listening. He might as well have invited someone to

Page 7948

1 come over and kill him. So you can see what kind of army this was, on

2 both sides.

3 Q. Could you tell where the conversation was taking place? Was this

4 in Serbia or in Bosnia?

5 A. Mostly in Bosnia. I assume, at least, because I couldn't know

6 from where the conversation was coming.

7 Q. You testified that individuals -- you would hear these

8 conversations. Please tell us, did you hear Serbs talking to each other

9 and Muslims talking to each other at some point?

10 A. Yes. Serbs were Serbs. Muslims with Muslims. And Serbs with

11 Muslims, Muslims with Serbs. All those combinations.

12 Q. Please explain how it is you're able to distinguish between the

13 voices of a Serb -- a person of Serb ethnicity and a person of Muslim

14 ethnicity.

15 A. With great difficulty, but if someone wants to declare themselves

16 on the radio as a Muslim, well, you can tell by the sounds "č" and "ć."

17 They are slightly softer. But as a rule, they could disguise their

18 accents and then of course I wouldn't be able to recognise it.

19 Q. Other than the conversation you just described about a duty

20 station, well, first of all, could you tell us, with respect to that

21 particular conversation you recall, was this individual who spoke on the

22 radio of Serb ethnicity or Muslim ethnicity. Do you recall?

23 A. I'm sure that was Serbian. I don't remember but I'm sure it was

24 Serb.

25 Q. And when you heard conversations between Muslims, could you give

Page 7949

1 us an example, if you recall, of the types of conversations that you would

2 hear?

3 A. When they joined in, and used this working channel as we called

4 it, they talked among themselves, where are you, how are you doing? And

5 you couldn't really glean any information from those conversations about

6 who was doing what. They were just normal conversations, the usual kind

7 of conversations.

8 Q. When you overheard conversations between Serb and Muslim, was --

9 could you tell us, just in general, what types of conversations that you

10 overheard?

11 A. The usual kind of conversations. In spite of the fact that they

12 were at war, when they communicated through the radio station, both sides

13 were very correct. It was a kind of unwritten rule. If a Muslim was

14 incorrect, his own Muslims would remove him from the radio, and the same

15 applied to the Serbs, because if somebody had a very strong radio station,

16 they could block the communication. They could exclude all the others.

17 Q. Perhaps you can explain a little bit further, in more detail.

18 When you say his own Muslims would remove him from the radio, could you

19 explain to us how that would occur?

20 A. Everybody knew -- first of all, the number of participants was not

21 huge. It was a limited number. I can't tell you the exact number, but

22 they were all more or less known, the names that joined in. And of course

23 the Serbs knew who their own people were, and who was interfering with the

24 communication, and the Muslims knew the same about the people on their

25 side. They would know who was behaving improperly.

Page 7950

1 Q. And when you said -- when you testified that the -- they would

2 remove the conversation. Could you just explain in what way that would be

3 done? Would the conversation be cut off? Just so that we have a clear

4 picture.

5 A. No. He could be a nuisance on that day but the next day they

6 would know who he was and they would possibly take away his radio station.

7 Q. Did individuals use their own names or were their code names used?

8 A. Usually it was code names or nicknames or made-up names.

9 Q. With respect to the range of the radio, your radio, and what you

10 could overhear, could you tell the Trial Chamber upon what your ability to

11 hear was based on? In other words was it just based on frequency? Did it

12 matter what type of radio the other individuals had? Did everyone have to

13 have the same type of radio?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has answered that question all right. He

15 said the same or similar, plus within range.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would also depends on the

17 configuration of the terrain.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly and he's explained this already.


20 Q. Could you tell us what areas you were able to -- the range of your

21 radio, what areas in the Bosnian area you were able to hear?

22 A. Mostly those across the River Drina from where I was, Bjelovac, as

23 far as Bratunac, because that was open, and the hills overlooking

24 Srebrenica. If someone was talking on the radio in Srebrenica, for

25 example, and not using a relay, then I would not be able to hear them.

Page 7951

1 Q. You testified that individuals used code names. Did you yourself

2 have a code name?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did you use the radio to communicate with other individuals

5 outside of the need to assist with contacting family members?

6 A. I don't understand your question.

7 Q. I'll rephrase the question. Did you speak with the Muslims and

8 the Serb individuals that you would overhear?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And how often would you engage in discussions with them?

11 A. Not very often.

12 Q. What type of conversations would you have with them?

13 A. For the most part, I would ask about someone I knew because I used

14 to live in Bratunac. I had friends there among the Muslims as well. So I

15 sometimes asked about them, and I communicated the most after the fall of

16 Bjelovac, when the Muslims took Bjelovac. A woman went missing or rather

17 two women went missing with two children.

18 Q. Why don't you tell the Trial Chamber when it was that you were

19 contacted, if in fact you were contacted, by someone looking for a woman

20 and two children?

21 A. That woman's husband, his mother was missing, his wife was

22 missing, and his two children were missing.

23 Q. Do you remember his name?

24 A. I used to know it. I used to know it. Now I've forgotten. It

25 escapes me.

Page 7952

1 Q. Do you remember his wife's name?

2 A. The woman's name was Nada. That was his wife. I remember -- come

3 back.

4 Q. All right. If you recall it at some point, please let us know.

5 How was it that -- why was it, I should say, that he came to you

6 for assistance?

7 A. He knew I had a radio station. I didn't know him personally

8 before that time. But I did know the brothers of his wife. They were

9 people who installed tiles. They tiled my house. And they told him about

10 me, and said that I could communicate with both the Serb and the Muslim

11 sides across the river, and nobody knew what had happened to this woman.

12 First, people said that she jumped into the Drina and that she drowned,

13 together with her children. Then we waited. I don't know whether I

14 should use the name Naser or Gazda, but we were waiting for Naser to

15 confirm whether he had taken that woman prisoner because if he could

16 confirm that, then everything would be all right. She would be exchanged

17 and we were sure they wouldn't hurt the woman with children. Also, there

18 was fighting, and later on, I learned another piece of information from

19 him, that this lady who had been taken prisoner had gone to school with

20 Mr. Naser. She was a former schoolmate of his and that was another plus.

21 But what mattered was that she was in his hands. There was a conflict.

22 You know how it is.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. Maybe she was already -- I don't know, maybe she might have been

25 killed in the fighting.

Page 7953

1 Q. All right. Let me stop you, Mr. Okanovic, for one moment. I

2 think we need to go back a bit. When this individual came to you asking

3 for assistance, could you tell the Trial Chamber what you did and who was

4 it that you decided that you were going to contact to assist?

5 A. You couldn't really assist. You could just wait by the radio for

6 Mr. Naser to make contact. We tried to call him through the radio

7 station.

8 Q. And how did you do that? Tell us the exact language you used in

9 terms of contacting him. Did you -- how did you do it? What did you say?

10 A. The assumption was -- I don't know exactly, but that Mr. Naser

11 used the name Gazda on the radio. I cannot confirm this because I didn't

12 meet him personally, either before or after these events, but from what

13 other people said and from the way he spoke, we assumed that this was

14 Mr. Naser Oric.

15 Q. All right. Let's go back a bit prior to the individual coming to

16 you to ask you to help him with finding -- finding out what happened to

17 his wife and children. Did there come a time that you spoke with this

18 person, Gazda?

19 A. Whether I spoke to him before or after, I can't tell you, but I

20 did listen in. It's possible that I had spoken to him before. I'm not

21 sure.

22 Q. All right. Well, let's --

23 A. But I'm sure I did hear him.

24 Q. All right. Tell the Trial Chamber what it was that you heard with

25 respect to this individual, Gazda, prior to December 14. What were you

Page 7954

1 able to hear on the radio with respect to this individual? In other

2 words, did you hear people trying to contact him using this name or did

3 you overhear conversations? Did you hear this person identify them self

4 as such during the conversations you overheard?

5 A. Yes. He always introduced himself as Gazda. Later on, he didn't

6 even have to introduce himself because we recognised his voice and I knew

7 who he was, and so did others. After a time you learned to recognise

8 voices. So that some people would say to him, you are Naser, you are

9 Naser Oric. We know, but I really cannot confirm this. I can only say

10 that this person introduced himself as Gazda and that we asked him for

11 information about this missing person.

12 Q. The person that you referred to as Gazda was it always the same

13 voice responding in connection with this name?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And during the time prior to December 14th, as you listened to the

16 radio, were other individuals trying to contact him as well?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When someone attempted to contact him, how would you know they

19 were trying to reach him? Could you give us just an example of what you

20 would hear as they are trying to contact him, reach out to him?

21 A. For example, "Gazda, it's Biber calling."

22 Q. And would he -- would this Gazda respond immediately?

23 A. No. He was rarely on that frequency. I don't know when he was

24 there. Maybe he would hear, but failed to respond. It didn't happen

25 often that he responded. You can't say that he was there every day.

Page 7955

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. How many channels did your radio have?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could change channels. I can't

3 tell you exactly how many, but also when I -- well, the radio was made for

4 144 to 146 megahertz. That's the amateur range. But you could reset it

5 and increase the range. The quality of reception and the transmission in

6 the extended range wasn't very good but it could still be done so that the

7 number of channels might have been 50. I don't know. There were ten on

8 the button itself but you could set as many as you liked.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


11 Q. Prior to December 14th, as you were just describing overhearing

12 this conversation involving Gazda, could you tell us how many -- the

13 period of time you heard this Gazda on the radio, whether he was talking

14 or someone trying to reach out to him? Was it November, October, et

15 cetera?

16 A. Well, as for the time when -- it's a very long time since then. I

17 can't recall.

18 Q. And did you use the radio every day?

19 A. No. I tell you I wasn't there every day. When I was there, then

20 I did.

21 Q. You did say that. How often would you go away and how long did

22 you stay away?

23 A. A week at a time, or 10 days at a time.

24 Q. All right. Getting back to the period of time when this

25 individual came to you asking for assistance to locate his wife, what is

Page 7956

1 it exactly you did with respect to contacting Gazda, who you believed to

2 be Naser Oric?

3 A. I told him to sit next to the radio, wait and listen. I don't

4 remember really how it went, whether I tried to call on him, but I don't

5 believe, because there was fighting going on at the time, I don't believe

6 he would have been listening to that channel which was used for general

7 communication. On the second or third day, I went to Italy and stayed

8 there three or four days. I wasn't there at all. This man was by the

9 radio station, but I think that Gazda responded and said that the woman

10 was in his keeping, that she was safe, and that there would be no

11 problems. And this was about five or six days later. When I got back,

12 whether they learned this before, I don't know. I can't tell you.

13 Q. During the time that you were listening to the radio, did Gazda,

14 this person you call Gazda, respond and said something directly to you?

15 Or did you talk directly to him?

16 A. I don't know what the occasion was, whether it was on that

17 occasion, but I think it was, when we learned that the woman was there, I

18 told him that it wasn't right for him to imprison women and children. I

19 told him this was a war crime. And he responded that it wasn't that. He

20 had saved them and kept them safe. What the verbal communication was, I

21 really can't recall now, but that was gist of it.

22 Q. And at the time this conversation took place, was the woman's

23 husband with you? Was he also listening?

24 A. I'm sure he was. He never left the radio except when he went to

25 sleep. He was at my house all day.

Page 7957

1 Q. And this Gazda, was this the same voice associated with the name

2 that you had heard prior to this conversation?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did this person come, this Gazda, the voice that you heard, on

5 the radio, did -- was he specifically seeking you, responding to your

6 calling him, or was he talking to someone else and you injected?

7 A. I can't remember now. I can't remember what exactly happened, how

8 the situation evolved. But later both the communication and the exchange

9 were arranged elsewhere and I had nothing to do with it.

10 Q. Did he -- do you recall if he said anything to you with respect to

11 yourself and your ability to listen in on conversations?

12 A. On one occasion he told me he knew who I was. He didn't say my

13 name because it wasn't customary for us to use names, even if we knew who

14 was on the other end of the line. He said you're the electrical engineer

15 from Vhrpolje who is able to catch all the frequencies. And I told him,

16 "Well, I'm not quite the man, but still, he can send greetings to a

17 schoolmate I have over there."

18 MR. JONES: Could I mention one quick matter before it disappears

19 off our screen. It's in the transcript, and it may be a small thing but I

20 think it has to be crystal clear. It's on line 19 on page 54. It's "And

21 he responded that it wasn't that he had saved them and kept them safe," as

22 if it were one sentence. As I clearly heard it, and I think we all did,

23 is it's -- he responded that "It wasn't that." Full stop. "He had saved

24 them and kept them safe."


Page 7958

1 MR. JONES: I just want to make absolutely sure that's correct.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's correct, Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES: Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 Let's proceed, Ms. Richardson.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, there is another correction to the

7 transcript correction while we're on this topic. It's with respect to the

8 Exhibit number, the photograph, it -- I believe it's P537 and I think the

9 transcript reflects P357 and that's at line 42, 8.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Let's move.


12 Q. How many Gazdas were there at the time that were you listening on

13 the radio, that you recall?

14 A. Just one.

15 Q. And when this --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You had asked the question and he had answered it

17 already, Ms. Richardson.


19 Q. And when this individual, Gazda, came on the frequency, were

20 people -- was he treated any differently from any of the other individuals

21 communicating via the radio?

22 A. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "differently". He was

23 obviously a rather important person because there were many people who

24 asked to speak to him. He was often called upon, sometimes he responded

25 and sometimes he didn't, but whenever he did he would usually talked to

Page 7959

1 several people.

2 Q. How long did the conversation that you had with him about the

3 women and children last? I believe I see Defence standing up?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let him answer the question first.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one correction

8 for the transcript and the witness can clarify that. The witness said

9 that he was often called and that he didn't often respond, whereas the

10 transcript says sometimes he responded and sometimes he didn't, which is

11 quite different. So if that can be clarified, please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to clarify this?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What you said, Witness, please, if

14 you can.

15 THE WITNESS [Realtime transcript read in error "werp, werp"]:

16 Sometimes he responded and sometimes he didn't. We don't know if he was

17 listening. There is no way you can know whether there is someone on the

18 other end listening when you're calling so the question was maybe he would

19 respond, or maybe he would respond if he was there at the time and if he

20 was listening. We had no confirmation there was any presence at all on

21 the other end of the line refusing to respond. Therefore, I'm not sure

22 what you mean. Anyone who is familiar with radio communication clearly

23 realises that this is not a legitimate question. We don't know whether

24 the person perhaps didn't wish to respond. We didn't know if the person

25 was there.

Page 7960

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Stop there. Ms. Richardson, your next

2 question, please.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm almost finished my examination.

4 Could I have a moment?

5 It appears Your Honour the transcript what the witness has

6 responded to Madam Vidovic's question is it doesn't reflect that it's the

7 witness. It actually has on the transcript that it's Madam Vidovic so

8 perhaps we could make a correction there.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ah, yes, that's a very important matter that you

10 have raised.

11 We are talking of line 7 on page 57. It says "Ms. Vidovic,

12 interpretation, what you said, Witness, please if you can." And then

13 there is "werp, werp." Where there is "werp, werp," that's where the

14 witness starts so it should be on a fresh line. And what that "werp,

15 werp," I don't know what it means but certainly that's where the witness

16 starts responding to Ms. Vidovic's question. Just for the record. And

17 then it ends at line 17.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 Q. Mr. Okanovic, did there come a time after the conversation you had

21 with Gazda that you spoke to him again or that you heard him on the radio

22 again?

23 A. Perhaps three or four times, but every time it was informal.

24 Three or four times that I talked, but I heard him more often than that.

25 Q. Did you ever following December of 1992 -- did you meet with

Page 7961

1 individual -- the woman that you mentioned, her husband had come to you

2 about and to assist?

3 A. Yes. She came to see me two or three times. But it was right

4 after the liberation, but later I never saw her again.

5 Q. Did she confirm to you that she had in fact been held?

6 A. She confirmed that she had been not in a prison but in a private

7 home. She said she was treated in a fair manner and that both she and the

8 children were fed properly.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further

10 questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Jones, I know that I had told you, you will

12 start on Monday but little did I know that Ms. Richardson for once would

13 finish before the time. So --

14 MR. JONES: May I approach it this way, Your Honour? We would

15 like to cross-examine this witness in a sequence which would start with

16 the videotapes and we do actually need time to consider the testimony

17 which has been given, fairly technical matters, of the -- where various

18 evidence was given in relation to the video. And our understanding, of

19 course, would be that we would start on Monday and we would prefer to

20 start with that on Monday.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

22 MR. JONES: There is, however, one question I would ask simply

23 because it will help with the planning, it may help to save time on Monday

24 which, if I could therefore start my cross-examination with one question

25 and then continue and finish on Monday.

Page 7962

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. Go ahead.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

3 MR. JONES: Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Okanovic, it's simply there. The video which we saw today, we

5 saw there was a date, and times in the frames. It's right, isn't it, that

6 that was accurate, as far as you know, the times which appear on the

7 screen? You had calibrated the video beforehand? Would that be correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. JONES: Thank you. It was simply that. So if we could

10 continue on Monday?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. So Mr. Okanovic we give you --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was correct.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll give you a rest now. We will

14 reconvene on Monday. Monday we are sitting in the morning. That's the

15 only day in the week that we are sitting in the morning, actually, and I

16 don't know if it's in this same courtroom or not. I think it is in the

17 same courtroom. And we will continue and finish with your testimony on

18 Monday. Thank you.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.11

20 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of

21 May, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.