Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7963

1 Monday, 9 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case

6 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Registrar and good morning to

8 you. Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

10 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down and good morning to

12 you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

14 lead counsel for the Prosecution. Good morning to the Defence. Together

15 with co-counsel Joanne Richardson and our case manager Donnica

16 Henry-Frijlink.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben. Good morning to you and

18 your team. Appearances for Naser Oric.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I'm

20 Vasvija Vidovic together with Mr. John Jones, appearing on behalf of Mr.

21 Naser Oric. We have with us our legal assistant, Miss Adisa Mehic and

22 our case manager Mr. Geoff Roberts. Good morning also to my learned

23 friends from the OTP.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic and good morning to your

25 team. Any preliminaries before I say mine?

Page 7964

1 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] None, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I have over the weekend had a family matter arising

4 that needs attending to with some -- not exactly urgency but it needs to

5 be attended to before -- definitely before -- that is, the sooner the

6 better. And so I need to go home for two days, and the only flights that

7 I have managed to secure is leaving on the 19th of May which means

8 basically the two sittings of the 19th and 20th will have to go and we'll

9 have to make up for those later on.

10 So I will of course be returning the same weekend so I leave

11 Thursday and I come back Saturday or Sunday. I mean I'm wait-listed both

12 going out and coming in so I don't know exactly what's going to happen

13 but that's the position. So the 19th and the 20th. There is one witness

14 scheduled for those two days, and we will have to reschedule that

15 witness. Basically that's the --

16 MR. WUBBEN: We will, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that Mr. Wubben. I thought of letting

18 you know straight away. All the flights are pretty booked and overbooked

19 and I had a big problems trying to find a flight to go home.

20 So let's bring the witness in and continue.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Okanovic. I hope you had

23 a good weekend here in The Hague, in this beautiful city of The Hague,

24 and we will now proceed with your testimony and you will be

25 cross-examined by Mr. Jones who is co-counsel defending Mr. Oric.

Page 7965

1 Just two matters. May I please remind you that you are

2 testifying under oath pursuant to the solemn declaration that you made

3 last Friday; and that secondly, since we depend to a large extent if not

4 completely on interpretation here, if at any time there are problems with

5 your receiving interpretation, please draw our attention straight away,

6 because we need to be able to follow the testimony and everyone else

7 needs to be able to follow the testimony in all the languages of this

8 Tribunal.

9 So I thank you. Good morning, and Mr. Jones may start with his

10 questions.

11 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:


16 Q. And good morning from me, Mr. Okanovic.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. You speak English?

19 A. A little bit.

20 Q. I'm going to start by revisiting the video which you were shown

21 on Friday just in one or two parts to fill in some gaps.

22 Now, firstly, I'll indicate beforehand what I'm going to ask you

23 to look out for and the first thing it's a very small thing but on the

24 transcript, P316.1, we have a name appearing, Razo. It says "Razo" on

25 the transcript. I'm going to play the segment and tell us if you

Page 7966

1 actually here the name "Raso."

2 So if we could just play starting at 3120.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible it might be Raso. It

5 might be. "Raso told me so," that might be what they are saying.

6 Q. And Raso is a Serb name, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it short for Radovan?

9 A. Could be.

10 Q. Now, we are going to play another segment and if you could tell

11 us this time if you hear the words I'll say it in Bosnian. [B/C/S

12 spoken] or perhaps [B/C/S spoken]. We'll play the segment starting at

13 3232.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's someone standing next

16 to me commenting.


18 Q. And that essentially means look how well the plane is bombing or

19 blasting or something of that nature? Would you agree?

20 A. I can't quite agree with the blasting. This wasn't something

21 that we could see. We could only hear explosions and we didn't know

22 exactly what they were hitting.

23 Q. Just on the transcript, firstly, that appears as "Look how well

24 he's flying." You agree that that's not what was being said by the

25 person next to you?

Page 7967

1 A. No, it isn't.

2 Q. [B/C/S spoken] refers to throwing rockets or bombs or some

3 projectile?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Next, do you recall that you said at some point in response to a

6 question, "ours went silent." [B/C/S spoken]. Do you recall that from

7 Friday?

8 A. I think I do but I don't remember what the reason was for saying

9 that.

10 Q. We'll play that segment and that starts at 3320.

11 [Videotape played]


13 Q. Did you hear yourself saying something of that nature in that

14 section?

15 A. Yes. I heard my own voice. A person standing next to me was

16 asking me whether it was Miko. I said I had no idea and then my voice

17 says, "He came back without having done anything."

18 Q. Okay. In particular I wanted to ask you about this expression

19 which it appears -- well, which you commented on Friday, that "Ours went

20 silent" and when you were asked about that you said that you were

21 referring to Bosnian Serb soldiers. For the sake of clarity I'll refer

22 to the transcript from Friday and it's page 17 lines 2 to 7 in LiveNote.

23 And you said: "Witness: Again, this young boy is asking me who

24 is firing and I'm replying, well, it's not our men because our men

25 weren't shooting. That's what I told him. And when I said 'our men,' --

Page 7968

1 the transcript is a bit unclear but the reference was Bosnian Serbs. And

2 then Your Honour pointed out the statement was made at 34.561. It's that

3 I want to ask you about now.

4 Now, on Friday you told us repeatedly that you couldn't see any

5 people in Sikiric that day; correct?

6 A. I said I was not able to see any people there, from where I was

7 standing.

8 Q. And the Prosecution asked you if you saw Bosnian Serb soldiers

9 that day and you said no. Isn't it right that in effect that question is

10 misleading because you didn't see anybody that day, Muslims, Serbs,

11 soldiers or civilians?

12 A. Quite right. I saw no one.

13 Q. And again, just while we are on this theme, how far roughly is

14 the distance from your house to Sikiric?

15 A. About a kilometre and a half.

16 Q. And you also told us how later you went down to the Drina and

17 looked across and you still couldn't see people. What distance would

18 that be from where you were by the Drina over to Sikiric?

19 A. Perhaps 300 or 400 metres from the Drina. I was able to see some

20 houses that were nearby but I did not see any persons. If I had seen any

21 persons I would have taped them.

22 Q. Would you agree that from 500 metres, or thereabouts, it's not

23 actually possible to see whether someone is wearing a uniform or civilian

24 clothes?

25 A. If I may be allowed to clarify something. It didn't mean

Page 7969

1 anything to us at the time, seeing someone in civilian clothes or in

2 uniform. People just wore uniforms. Those were no textbook armies on

3 either side. Those people were just civilians heading off to war. A

4 uniform meant nothing.

5 Q. Yes, and if I can follow up on that, is it correct then that if

6 you saw someone in civilian clothes they could be a soldier, firstly?

7 A. Could be, but I didn't see anyone.

8 Q. Yes, I'm just speaking about in general terms, the army as you

9 described it in this period, on both sides. Secondly, that someone could

10 be wearing a uniform or a piece of uniform and not be a soldier but

11 simply possess a uniform from their military service? You have to give a

12 verbal answer, I'm afraid.

13 A. Yes. It wasn't your run-of-the-mill army, like I said. Those

14 were just armed civilians on both sides.

15 Q. Finally on this theme, can you confirm that farmers would

16 sometimes wear bits of uniform just because they were well made and warm

17 rather than because they were serving in a unit?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that's true of both sides, Muslim and Serb?

20 A. Yes. You see that sort of thing today.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, going back, then, to what we heard about "ours

22 went silent" and your reference to the fact that as you put it, your men

23 weren't shooting. Since you couldn't see any people, in fact, you didn't

24 know who was shooting, did you, Serbs or Muslims?

25 A. I meant the plane probably, I'm not even sure myself what I

Page 7970

1 meant. One thing is certain, I couldn't see anyone at the time but I

2 probably had the plane in mind when I said that. Something to the effect

3 that it just flew by without firing.

4 Q. Flew by on that occasion without firing?

5 A. Yes, on that occasion.

6 Q. So you accept that in terms of who was shooting at whom, you

7 didn't know whether it was Serbs or Muslims who was doing the firing.

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. Sorry, your answer wasn't translated. Could you repeat it,

10 please.

11 A. I do accept that, yes. There was no way I could know.

12 Q. Could it be also that when you were referring to "ours went" --

13 this phrase, "ours went silent," you could be referring to artillery in

14 Serbia which had ceased shooting at that moment or -- let me put that a

15 different way. Isn't it right that there was artillery in Serbia, in

16 Ljubovija?

17 A. No, not at that time. I'm sure about that. Had there been any

18 armed forces on the Serbian side, we would not have needed to organise

19 any village guards.

20 Q. All right. But do you accept that there was heavy artillery in

21 Ljubovija?

22 A. No, not that I saw it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'd just like with respect to

25 counsel's question -- exactly when, at what time period is he referring

Page 7971

1 to. Are we talking about the day in question or prior to?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it we are talking about the day in question,

3 yes.

4 MR. JONES: Well, I can go back to that.

5 Q. You said at that time. "No, not at that time." There wasn't

6 artillery in Serbia. So at what time was there or what time did you

7 become aware that there was --

8 A. There were no armed forces.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question is did at any later point in time

10 then was there artillery in the location that was mentioned to you by Mr.

11 Jones.

12 MR. JONES: Yes, in Ljubovija.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: In Ljubovija.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I only know that

15 later on some armed forces arrived of the Republika Srpska or Yugoslavia

16 but I don't know when exactly. But that was much later. I can't be sure

17 about when.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

19 MR. JONES: I may come back to that but thank you for the time

20 being.

21 Q. I want to ask you now about an expression we heard on the video

22 where on the transcript it appears you don't know which is which and I

23 want you to listen to the segment and see whether that's what you hear or

24 whether you hear you don't know who is who. [B/C/S spoken]. So we'll

25 play that segment which starts at 3510.

Page 7972

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Yes, did you hear that?

4 A. Yes, I said it.

5 Q. And you were saying you don't know who was who?

6 A. There was someone next to me who suggested that we go and help

7 them and I said who are you going to help, if you don't know who was who?

8 They are both wearing the same kind of uniform. Now who are you going to

9 be helping?

10 There was no way you to distinguish soldiers on the basis of

11 where they belonged and there was no way you could tell their accents

12 either. That was the meaning behind my words. I said you don't know who

13 is who, not meaning anything else.

14 Q. Thank you. And that was based on your general knowledge of how

15 things were, that it appeared to you a scene of complete confusion and

16 chaos on the other side of the Drina?

17 A. Yes, exactly.

18 Q. And into this scene, as we've seen the Serb planes were dropping

19 bombs, did you hear that -- did you hear after the action that some Serbs

20 were killed by bombs dropped by Serb planes?

21 A. No. What I heard is that Muslim forces had killed them.

22 Q. Would it not be consistent with what you saw, this chaotic scene,

23 that people were actually killed by bombs as well, Serbs and Muslims

24 alike?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Richardson?

Page 7973

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would object to the manner in

2 which this question is being posed. I think the witness answered the

3 question. If Mr. Jones would put the question in a different way,

4 whether or not he's aware or he observed bombs killing these individuals,

5 that's another question. But the way in which he posed it whatever

6 answer the witness gives may be misleading.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I agree with you Ms. Richardson. Could you

8 rephrase your question if you wish to pursue the matter, Mr. Jones.

9 MR. JONES: I won't pursue the matter. It was really to do with

10 what he heard rather than what he saw.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


13 Q. In the next section I'd like you to list hear and listen if you

14 hear persons saying ours are doing very well. [B/C/S spoken] and [B/C/S

15 spoken], and that's starting from 3800 or thereabouts.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. Yes, can you confirm that's what you heard.

19 A. Yes. That is someone commenting over the radio. They are

20 referring to the bird, probably meaning the plane, and they are saying

21 that it did a good job.

22 Q. So in general, that's an expression of the fact that the Serb

23 side is doing well at that time, at least that the airplanes are doing

24 their job.

25 A. Don't take my word for it. I think you should just listen and

Page 7974

1 try to see for yourself. There was no way I could see from where I was

2 whether someone was doing a good job for not. Therefore I don't think I

3 can answer your question.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser?

5 JUDGE ESER: For a question of clarification, if the question it

6 was asked as -- that the airplanes are doing their job. Now, the remark

7 which was made, was it made with regard to both planes in the morning and

8 the afternoon or was it referring to one plane only? And if so, which

9 planes, the morning or the afternoon?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was at 10.00 in the morning.

11 He says the bird in the singular did well.

12 JUDGE ESER: So at that time there was only one plane? Could

13 you --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall, but the person

15 speaking on the radio says the bird did well. He's referring to a plane

16 in the singular.


18 Q. That's a reference to one plane but you're not saying, are you,

19 that you know there was only one plane in the air at that time?

20 A. When I looked at the tape the second time, it was only then I

21 noticed that there were two planes. I don't recall there being two. It

22 was only when I looked at the tape again that I realised that there were

23 two different planes. I don't have this tape at home.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clear this up because I think there is a

25 little bit of confusion now. We saw the tape last Friday and I agree

Page 7975

1 with you that on that tape, at least, there are two distinctly different

2 planes, one is just a biplane, with two layers of wings and the other one

3 is just an ordinary propeller-driven plane. Were they flying -- were

4 they in the sky together at any given time during the day that you

5 recall?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall. Had they been

7 there both together I would probably have taped that. I don't recall

8 that they were there together.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


11 Q. Just on that subject I'll come back to it but the biplane was the

12 one dropping bombs; correct?

13 A. Don't know.

14 Q. We'll see that in a moment. And wasn't there a fighting plane,

15 possibly a MIG, which was flying over and possibly shooting at people as

16 well?

17 A. Absolutely not. I'm sure of it.

18 Q. So what did you see the fighter plane doing?

19 A. That was a fast plane. These are slow planes and I saw those.

20 However, had there been a MIG, I would have had to see it and hear it. I

21 couldn't have missed it. There were no big, fast planes flying over.

22 Q. I'm going to come back to the planes shortly but just dealing

23 with the biplane now, we are going to see a section where what appears to

24 be a bomb is dropped from the plane. And we hear a woman saying, [B/C/S

25 spoken], there it is, and then an impact. That's at 4750. Yes. We'll

Page 7976

1 start slightly before.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Now we saw just then the jolting, a jolting movement a moment

5 ago. Isn't what we've seen a bomb being dropped, a dust cloud being

6 thrown up and even the impact jolting your camera or something of that

7 nature? Can you help us with that?

8 A. No. No way. It was very far from the camera and I didn't even

9 hear the explosion on that occasion. On another part of the tape, you

10 can see bombs being dropped and explosions. As for this, no. I wouldn't

11 say it was an explosion.

12 Q. Maybe that wasn't the best section to show you. Do you accept

13 that you saw the impact of bombs falling in Sikiric?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] get that last Friday.

15 He did testify, Mr. Jones, that some bombs may not have exploded.

16 MR. JONES: Yes so it follows that some did explode.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, some did, obviously, and we saw. We had seen

18 this tape anyway. So please go ahead and ask him any questions you like

19 of course.

20 MR. JONES: Yes.

21 Q. Could you estimate how many bombs were dropped that day?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Less than ten, more than 20, 50?

24 A. No. I don't know. I don't want to play around with numbers

25 because I really have no idea.

Page 7977

1 Q. Now, we heard a person earlier on the tape saying, if there are

2 Ustasha there, they must be crazy. Do you recall that?

3 A. Yes. We heard that just a moment ago.

4 Q. And when that person was referring to Ustashas, he was referring

5 to Muslims?

6 A. Probably, yes.

7 Q. And just for our benefit, that's in fact a rather ugly term used

8 to describe Muslims by Serbs sometimes, isn't it, comparing them to World

9 War II Nazis?

10 A. You must understand the situation. One side called the other

11 Ustasha and the other side called the others Chetniks. That was the

12 usual way of referring to the other side at the time. It was not

13 derogatory. It was just a normal term that was used.

14 Q. Serbs also called themselves Chetniks, though, don't they, in

15 terms of there being Chetnik units?

16 A. No, I'm telling you the Muslims called all the Serbs Chetniks and

17 the Serbs called all the Muslims Ustasha, for the most part.

18 Q. So it was simply to say that there were Serbs who called

19 themselves Chetniks?

20 A. At that time, it didn't mean anything derogatory. It was just a

21 way of designating the side you were on.

22 Q. But when the person said, if there were Ustasha there they must

23 be crazy, he was recognising, wasn't he, that it must have been extremely

24 terrible situation for any Muslims who were in Sikiric with bombs falling

25 on them, et cetera. Would that be correct?

Page 7978

1 A. It's possible that's what he meant but I don't know what he

2 meant.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson?

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, the witness has already answered

5 the question but clearly that was a question that called for speculation.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't agree with you at all. That's why I

7 allowed it. I knew what your objection would be but that's -- it's the

8 witness's understanding of what the words uttered by the other person

9 meant.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Fine, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's move.


13 Q. Mr. Okanovic, you told us on Friday that you at the time knew

14 that the Muslims were desperately short of food, the Muslims on the other

15 side of the Drina.

16 A. I didn't know that but I assumed that was the case.

17 Q. [Microphone not activated] you aware at the time that at

18 Bratunac, Serbs, even including civilians and including civilian women,

19 were blocking aid convoys bound for Srebrenica, in order to deny them

20 food?

21 A. I don't know that.

22 Q. Right. I just want to go back to the planes briefly. The planes

23 you told us on Friday flew down from the direction of Bratunac and you

24 showed how they went over the road from Bratunac. Would it be correct to

25 say that they were close to the Drina pretty much the whole time that you

Page 7979

1 were observing them?

2 A. I think they were taking off somewhere near Bratunac. There was

3 some kind of auxiliary airport built there.

4 Q. You're aware of an airfield, there being an impromptu airfield in

5 Bratunac at that time?

6 A. I think there was one. I didn't see it.

7 Q. Were you also aware that planes were flying from Serbia proper

8 over into Bosnia, in this action?

9 A. No.

10 Q. No they weren't flying from Serbia or you weren't aware?

11 A. They weren't flying from there because at that point we were

12 angry with our forces for not helping or for not coming to the Drina

13 later on to protect us because we were afraid. And that's why we

14 organised those village guards, as I said. In the municipality we

15 protested against our own leaders who did nothing, although there was no

16 cause, as it turned out, for us to fear because nothing actually

17 happened.

18 Q. Thank you. It was really just to establish this: That these

19 planes you saw, isn't it right that when you were observing them they

20 were either above you at one point in Vrhpolje or in your village or

21 above the Drina or above Sikiric? They were in that area?

22 A. It's a small area, and when it was turning round, it flew above

23 us. Also, there were being shot at and probably that was the reason why

24 they fled to this side. At one point, I thought one of the planes had

25 been hit and maybe it was hit. I don't know.

Page 7980

1 Q. And the planes were clearly audible, weren't they, were they were

2 even over Sikiric?

3 A. Yes. It's nearby.

4 Q. Simply this: That you could hear them one kilometre away in

5 Vrhpolje when they were flying over Sikiric; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And isn't it right that this was from around 9.00 in the morning

8 onwards, that at least a plane or planes were flying above Sikiric?

9 A. From time to time, yes. Not continuously. But intermittently.

10 Q. All right. You told us on Friday that you first saw houses

11 burning and then planes arriving afterwards. How many houses had you in

12 fact noticed as burning before a plane arrived? Can you estimate?

13 A. I don't recall now.

14 Q. You can't excludes the possibility, can you --

15 A. The houses that had been set on fire in the morning were burning

16 throughout this time. I don't recall any houses being set on fire later.

17 Q. But do you accept that a certain number of houses might have

18 started burning after the planes arrived?

19 A. I wouldn't say that was the case, no.

20 Q. You can't tell us how many houses you saw burning before planes

21 arrived?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered that question, Mr. Jones, already, I

23 think.


25 Q. Also just to clarify one matter. On Friday, you were shown a

Page 7981

1 shot from this video and you could see a plane drop a bomb into the woods

2 and you said the plane has dropped bombs in the woods. Just to confirm,

3 that was -- you were referring just to that particular still of the

4 video, correct? It's not as if all the bombs were being dropped in the

5 woods.

6 A. Yes. It doesn't mean that all the bombs were dropped there. I

7 took shots of almost all of the bombs that were dropped.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So that answers also your previous question as to

9 how many bombs were dropped on that day, Mr. Jones. More or less.

10 MR. JONES: We can go back and count all of them.

11 Q. As far as the number of planes that were flying above Sikiric

12 that day, we've had reference to a biplane and to another plane. Isn't

13 it a fact that there were more than two planes, but in fact three or four

14 planes that you observed that day? Did you recall that it was only two

15 or could it have been more?

16 A. I only saw one in the air, and I tell you, at the time I was

17 making the videotape, I didn't even notice that the planes were

18 different. It was only later on when I looked at the tape that I saw

19 that the planes were different. At the time, I didn't pay attention to

20 what kind of plane it was. It was only later on I saw that they were

21 different planes.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now you also mentioned an armoured vehicle on

23 the Serb side, rather on the side of Serbia proper, which was also

24 shooting in the afternoon. I want to ask you, you noticed that in the

25 afternoon but do you exclude the possibility that it was firing from that

Page 7982

1 position before then and that you had simply not noticed it? Would that

2 be possible?

3 A. I'm certain it wasn't there earlier and I'm sure it arrived from

4 the Bosnian side. It wasn't there either before or after.

5 Q. So it's an armoured vehicle which arrived from the Bosnian side,

6 took up a position on the side of Serbia and then shot back towards

7 Sikiric? Is that your evidence?

8 A. I don't know what type of vehicle it was and whether it was an

9 armoured vehicle. It was quite far away. It is on my videotape and if

10 you can use the tape to recognise the type of vehicle, well that's fine,

11 but I can't.

12 Q. Okay, well we may come to that because there is reference to a

13 tank, in fact, on your video. That the child is saying, "There is a

14 tank." If you recall that.

15 A. That's possible. But when the child said it was a tank, probably

16 the child thought all vehicles were tanks or vehicles of that type. I

17 really wouldn't know.

18 MR. JONES: I think while we are on the subject we may as well

19 look at that part of the video. I think it's the very end.

20 [Videotape played]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record we are looking at 51 -- we started

22 the video rolling at 51.30.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. It's that section of the video, isn't it?

Page 7983

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and the video was stopped at 53.08.


3 Q. And the child says there is a tank.

4 A. I can hear those comments, but I don't know whether it was a

5 tank.

6 Q. Okay. We've actually finished with that video for the time being

7 and probably for good, P316.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jones.


10 Q. You also said on Friday that you didn't think that there were

11 Bosnian Serb soldiers based in Bjelovac or Sikiric. Now would you agree

12 that that was purely an assumption on your part based on the fact that it

13 was a small village and you didn't see the point?

14 A. I didn't see any. Those are assumptions. I know that they were

15 undisciplined and didn't respect their guard duty and I assumed that they

16 were not in Bjelovac.

17 Q. You're aware that Bjelovac is on the road from Skelani to

18 Bratunac, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would you agree that it's the only road or the only direct road

21 connecting those two places and that it goes all along the Drina past all

22 the villages?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were you aware at the time that there were VRS brigades in

25 both Skelani and Bratunac?

Page 7984

1 A. I know about Bratunac, but as for Skelani, that's a bit further

2 away and I have no idea.

3 Q. Were you aware in December of 1992 that there was a brigade in

4 Bratunac?

5 A. I don't really know about military units. I know there were

6 troops there but I don't know what kind of unit it was.

7 Q. And how many kilometres is it from Bjelovac to Bratunac?

8 A. Five kilometres, four or five.

9 Q. And would you agree, having served in the military and knowing

10 perhaps something of those things, that the road, that road on the Drina

11 was of considerable strategic significance at that time?

12 A. Probably.

13 Q. But in fact you never went to Bjelovac during 1992, did you?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. Isn't the reason why you didn't go because there was shooting

16 going on over in that area the whole time and it was considered very

17 dangerous? Sorry, you said [B/C/S spoken] but it wasn't interpreted. If

18 that could be interpreted. If you could repeat.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. [Microphone not activated]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was unsafe.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

22 MR. JONES: Thank you.

23 Q. Can you give us any idea of the frequency that you would hear

24 shooting on the ordinary side of the Drina? Was it on a weekly basis,

25 monthly basis, daily basis?

Page 7985

1 A. While I was there, it was on a daily basis.

2 Q. And that's from April 1992, from the start of the war, until

3 December 1992?

4 A. Yes. There was also shooting when some kind of actions were

5 being carried out, but there was also shooting for no reason at all.

6 People celebrating being rowdy, they would throw bombs in the River

7 Drina. People behaved irresponsibly.

8 Q. And in Vrhpolje, or in your area in any event, you were very much

9 aware, weren't you, that Serbs were sending their families out of the

10 area precisely because it was a war zone?

11 A. Nobody sent anyone from Vrhpolje.

12 Q. Not from Vrhpolje but the people were coming from the other side

13 of the Drina over to Serbia to evacuate their families because it wasn't

14 considered safe there.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In fact would you agree, if you know, that probably most people,

17 most Serbian families, on the other side of the Drina sent their women

18 and children away at the start of the war? Sent them over to Serbia?

19 A. In the beginning, yes, but later on, they came back.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Richardson?

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Just for clarification purposes the other side

22 of the Drina seems a rather large area to me. If we can pinpoint, if Mr.

23 Jones is able to, exactly what areas he is referring to. If we are just

24 referring to the other side then it seems a fairly large area to cover.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct, yes. Mr. Jones, I think if you abided by

Page 7986

1 what Ms. Richardson is suggesting, we would be in a position, in a better

2 position, to understand exactly the extent of your question and of the

3 answer that we got from the witness.

4 MR. JONES: Yes.

5 Q. When I refer to the other side of the Drina, I'm referring

6 perhaps -- tell me if you understood me or not, to the villages from

7 Bratunac downwards towards Skelani which were across the river from you

8 and of which you were aware; in other words, Bjelovac, I suppose

9 Fakovici, and --

10 A. I can only speak about the area parallel to Vrhpolje. A few

11 families, not all of them, but a few families, crossed over before the

12 war started and later on they went back.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's clear enough. Thank you.

14 MR. JONES: Thank you, yes.

15 Q. Including families from Bjelovac?

16 A. Certainly, yes, but I don't know any specific particular family

17 from Bjelovac who crossed over the Drina with their families.

18 Q. Now, during 1992, in this period which we have been considering

19 when you were hearing shots from the other side of the Drina but not

20 venturing over there, did you nonetheless see tanks, transporters and

21 other military hardware travelling back and forth on that road?

22 A. I didn't observe that. I have no idea. It wasn't an area where

23 there was a lot of army communication. I don't know.

24 MR. JONES: I wonder if the witness could be shown Defence

25 Exhibit D255, with the usher's assistance, please. For the record, the

Page 7987

1 ERN is 02158988 to 02158997. It's a document of the Office of the

2 Military Prosecutor of the VRS dated 13 October 1994.

3 Q. And I'd ask you, Mr. Okanovic, to turn to a page which ends 8997,

4 look at the top right-hand corner, 02158997. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you see the name Pejic Milorad, in capitals, halfway down?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that refers, doesn't it, to him as a member of the Armoured

9 Mechanised Company in Bjelovac and we see the date is the 14th of

10 September 1992, that an incident occurred. Do you see all that?

11 A. Yes. I see that.

12 Q. So I return to my question in the hope that seeing that seeing

13 that, seeing that apparently there was an armoured mechanised company in

14 Bjelovac might have jolted your memory as to whether you did see tanks

15 and transporters across the Drina in Bjelovac and Sikiric during the

16 course of 1992.

17 A. No. I'm not familiar with this case. If I'd seen any of that, I

18 would have taped it, but I'm sure I didn't see anything.

19 Q. Do you know Nikola Petrovic from Bjelovac?

20 A. Perhaps if I saw the person, I'd recognise the person, but the

21 name doesn't ring a bell. I knew a lot of people in Bratunac because I

22 lived there for a while. I'm not sure if I know what his position was,

23 but certainly the name tells me nothing.

24 Q. In relation to that, if we were to show you houses in Bjelovac

25 and ask you who their owners would be, that's not something you could

Page 7988

1 help us with, would it?

2 A. That would be very difficult, very difficult.

3 Q. Now, going back to just a few more questions on the action on the

4 14th of December 1992, you told us how fighting between Serbs and

5 Muslims, as you assumed, went on all day. Was it your understanding that

6 this wasn't a walkover but a fierce, two-way fight which therefore lasted

7 all day?

8 A. It wasn't fierce. It was quite a laugh. It was completely

9 disorganised on both sides. I don't know.

10 Q. So again when you said that it was Muslim forces who were

11 involved in Bjelovac on the 14th of December 1992 that again was an

12 assumption on your part wasn't it based on the fact that it was a Serb

13 village and you couldn't imagine Serbs attacking Serbs?

14 A. First of all, it was not a Serb village. It used to be a mixed

15 village before the war. Once the war began, they split up and then the

16 Serbs remained in the village. I assume it was the Serbs who remained in

17 the village but I can't confirm that either. If the Serbs were the ones

18 who remained, that means that the Muslims were the ones who attacked them

19 because there would not have been anyone else around to attack.

20 Q. And that's consistent, that assumption is consistent with Muslim

21 civilians going into Bjelovac rather than forces or troops, would you

22 agree?

23 A. I don't think I understand your question, I'm sorry.


25 MR. JONES: I can rephrase it.

Page 7989

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I object on the basis that this is

2 a question that calls for speculation by the witness. I think he's

3 already testified that there was fighting and he doesn't know who was

4 involved and to put the question to him about Muslim civilians going into

5 the village, I think it calls for speculation.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think --

7 MR. JONES: If we are all clear then if he doesn't know who was

8 involved then --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained and in any case, I don't think

10 you can go around this, Mr. Jones. I mean you have already got more than

11 one statement on this matter from the witness already.

12 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


15 Q. Now you told us that you assumed it was Serbs who remained in

16 Bjelovac, not Muslims. Can you explain why you made that assumption?

17 A. I made that assumption based on what I heard on the radio, on

18 what people said. Stuff like that, nothing special.

19 Q. Weren't you --

20 A. Secondly, these Bosnian Serbs would cross the Drina to go and get

21 food. That sort of thing. This means that there were Bosnian Serbs on

22 the other side and not Muslims.

23 Q. Wasn't it much more positive information you received than that?

24 Weren't you in fact aware that there was ethnic cleansing of the Muslims

25 in their villages all along the Drina at the start of 1992 and that the

Page 7990

1 Muslims had been expelled?

2 A. There was ethnic cleansing on both sides. Where there were

3 Muslims there were no Serbs and vice versa. That's as far as I knew.

4 Q. One final question on the action the 14th of December 1992. As

5 to how each individual house got damaged, you're not able to say, are

6 you, whether rather than being deliberately set on fire, they were either

7 damaged by a bomb from a plane or damaged by a zolja, by some other

8 means, other than human agency. That's not something you can say, is

9 it -- is it?

10 A. You're quite right.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What's your objection?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour my objection is to the

13 reference to the bomb. I think the witness has already testified that he

14 did not see a bomb cause damage to the houses and they were in fact

15 burning prior to the bomb. So my objection is solely with respect to

16 that part of the question.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, thank you, Ms. Richardson. I

18 think you've made your point and it's a valid point. At the same time,

19 no harm done because the witness's answer, as I expected it to be, does

20 not really throw much light on what could have caused the damage or the

21 fire. Yes. Let's continue.

22 MR. JONES: Yes, I think I do not to clarify on that subject.

23 Q. You're not excluding the possibility that bombs caused damage to

24 property --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now we are in the realm of pure speculation. I

Page 7991

1 mean, he's told you that he can't tell.

2 MR. JONES: Okay, that's fine, Your Honour. It's a distinction.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If he can not tell, he cannot include or exclude

4 any possibility.

5 MR. JONES: That's fine, thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Now, isn't it true that in fact you filmed more than the scenes

7 which we saw on Friday, that in fact you started filming area at about a

8 quarter to nine and that we haven't seen that section of the video?

9 A. All that was recorded has been shown.

10 MR. JONES: We are going to show the witness part of P428. It's

11 already a Prosecution exhibit. We have added just for convenience

12 subtitles and we have a transcript as well of that section, which we will

13 distribute the transcript and we realised perhaps belatedly but that

14 although this is a Prosecution exhibit, we should make copies of the DVD

15 with the subtitles for the parties and we will certainly do that in the

16 next day or so.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and if you want to give it a Defence

18 exhibit number, you are free to do so.

19 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: There is nothing impeding that.

21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. We will play this first bit.

22 Q. And if you could have a look, Mr. Okanovic, and see if you recall

23 that that's also footage which you shot.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may make a comment. It's

Page 7992

1 clear there are houses on fire but they are not firing yet.


3 Q. Do you recognise that as being shot from your -- as being filmed

4 from your house, from the building in front of your house?

5 A. This is very difficult for me to pin down in terms of location,

6 but I assume it must be the same camera. I assume I was the one who

7 taped this or it may have been someone else too but what is quite obvious

8 is that the planes have not taken off yet here. But it must have been

9 me. I was the one who taped this, because I was the one with the radio

10 and the voices that we have just heard are talking over the radio.

11 So now that I've analysed the situation I can say that I was the

12 one who taped it. And it is only now that they are saying something

13 about planes being about to take off. This is from Bratunac, from the

14 centre. That much is obvious.

15 Q. We will play on in a moment and I'll have some questions to ask

16 about it. You might also recognise the video perhaps from the brief

17 segment we saw of what looked like a western or some film which appears

18 briefly. But in any event, if you could -- if that is what you filmed,

19 then I'll have some questions after we finish playing it. Sorry, that is

20 the end.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. Firstly it's right, isn't it, that the people we hear speaking

24 are Serbs as one can tell from the context, the content from the use of

25 the Ekavian dialect and from the hard ch?

Page 7993

1 A. I assume they were Serbs, yes. Positive.

2 Q. And the -- what you recorded you heard on the radio, would this

3 be the walkie-talkie device which you had with you or some other device?

4 A. It was the walkie-talkie.

5 Q. And as an expert in radio communications, hearing the quality,

6 the slight echoes and what not, could you confirm that this is

7 interception of a military communication by radio?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think -- usually I would suggest, Ms.

9 Richardson, to wait until the witness answers the question but I'm

10 anticipating the objection. Yes, Ms. Richardson.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, my objection is based on the fact

12 that I don't think it has been established that this witness is an expert

13 in radio communications and as such may not be able to answer this

14 question and it's if he does it's only based on any -- on speculation on

15 his part. I think that there has been no testimony that he's an expert

16 in radio communication.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's only one part or one side of the

18 story maybe. Let him answer the question. Are you in a position, Mr.

19 Okanovic, to tell us whether this radio interception or radio

20 conversation that you overheard and taped basically was military

21 communication?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This was no military

23 communication.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So you are excluding it being a military

25 communication? And if you are, why are you so categorical? On what

Page 7994

1 grounds can you be so precise, so specific?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't rule out the possibility

3 that the person speaking was someone from the army, but this was

4 certainly not a military channel because this frequency was used by ham

5 radios and these people were using ham radio frequencies and not military

6 frequencies. I'm talking about this particular conversation.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour, I withdraw my question.

8 MR. JONES: I'm going to come to these points.

9 Q. Firstly, as far as the expertise which you have is concerned,

10 isn't it right that in fact you have considerable technical background

11 with radios, including ability to fix equipment and to use what I think

12 is called a goniometer? Is that correct? Can you confirm that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And during the war, before you had the technology and the

15 expertise to eavesdrop on communications including by decoding

16 communications? Would that be correct?

17 A. You referred to goniometer a while ago. You probably don't know

18 what that means and yet you're implying that I had it. And secondly,

19 decoding, I'm not quite clear what you mean by that.

20 Q. You did catch me out. Can you explain to us what a goniometer

21 is?

22 A. To put it in the simplest possible terms, for that you need to

23 have an a system of radio devices in place, a connected system with

24 antennas pointed or trained in the right direction both horizontally and

25 vertically so that it can pinpoint precise locations and these two

Page 7995

1 independent systems then communicate and provide accurate coordinates. I

2 mean two lines and at the point of intersection of these two lines,

3 that's where you find the radio device. So all I could do was put

4 together a directional aerial to be better able to eavesdrop on the other

5 side but I could not get a clear direction. There wasn't something that

6 I could have.

7 Q. Would you agree that that's fairly sophisticated technology and

8 that you know how to use it? If you had the equipment?

9 A. No. No. I wouldn't be able to use it. If someone trained me,

10 perhaps I could.

11 Q. Fine.

12 MR. JONES: So that helps clarify to a certain extent the

13 expertise this witness has.

14 Q. Now, going back to this conversation you told us it was on an

15 open channel, but of course the content is of a military nature, isn't

16 it? We are talking about military units and troops and attacks.

17 A. You can draw that conclusion yourself, whether yes or no. Please

18 don't make me analyse that.

19 Q. I won't ask to you analyse it but I would ask you to confirm that

20 the transcript which you have in front of you and we can replay what that

21 reflects --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, is whatever answer that the witness will

23 give you going to change the substance or the nature of the conversation?

24 MR. JONES: No, I think we do need some confirmation that the

25 transcript is accurate, that it accurately reflects what's being said.

Page 7996

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's something different. It's completely

2 different to what you're asking the witness.

3 MR. JONES: My last question is for him to confirm that the

4 transcript accurately reflects what is being said. I'll ask him to do

5 that because we need to do that with a witness. We'll replay the video

6 and he can look at the transcript as we go along.

7 Q. Yes, we are going to -- in fact, just as a sort of preface we are

8 going to replay the video again, Mr. Okanovic. If you could confirm or

9 tell us if it's wrong in any way, the content of the transcript.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: How is he going to tell us whether the transcript

11 is --

12 MR. JONES: The B/C/S transcript.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see, I see. All right. He has got a copy of

14 it, I take it?

15 MR. JONES: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes. Let's go -- let's proceed.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may make a

19 comment. A while ago counsel put it to me that they were speaking

20 Ijkavian but they weren't. They spoke Ekavian, which has been noted in

21 the transcript. Therefore, these are Bosnian Serbs. That's all I wanted

22 to say.


24 Q. Thank you and their mentioning [B/C/S spoken] and [B/C/S spoken].

25 From your radio intercepts, are you aware or from other information, that

Page 7997

1 those are Serb units, [B/C/S spoken] and [B/C/S spoken]?

2 A. I don't know. Most probably.

3 Q. Do you confirm --

4 A. This is not something that I can confirm.

5 Q. You followed the transcript as we watched the clip. Do you

6 confirm that what's written there accurately reflects what is being said?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. I may come back to that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Jones, please. Judge Eser has a

10 question.

11 JUDGE ESER: Just before we go on, since certain villages are

12 mentioned, could we be shown on a map where these villages are located in

13 relation to Bjelovac.

14 MR. JONES: We did have the Prosecution map --

15 JUDGE ESER: We have a map here, yes. P536.

16 MR. JONES: Yes, P536. Can that be placed on the ELMO?

17 Actually, perhaps what is the best course is if we play the video and

18 just freeze it each time a place name comes up and the witness can point

19 it out.

20 One moment, Witness. We will ask you about the villages as we go

21 along.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll -- it will take us less time and it

23 will be easier if -- because there aren't a large number of places

24 mentioned here. So let's put the map on the ELMO, please, and let's take

25 them -- where is Pirici, please? Could you show us Pirici.

Page 7998

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not sure.

2 MR. JONES: Could [inaudible] be permitted to assist the witness

3 since the object is just for us to --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course you can.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, it is, Pirici.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So the witness points to Pirici on the map, which

7 is at 35, 35 minutes to the south, at the south of Sikiric.

8 MR. JONES: There is also we just saw Bjelovacka Rijeka is

9 referred to.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This should all be part of

11 Bjelovac, as far as I know. These are mere hamlets.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And Rijeka means a river, doesn't it?

13 Bjelovacka Rijeka.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes but I don't know exactly which

15 one it is, whether it's the one going towards Sase or this creek over

16 here. I don't know.

17 MR. JONES: [Microphone not activated] is also mentioned. Isn't

18 it right that that's also part of Sikiric? It may not appear on the map

19 but just from your knowledge, if you could tell us.

20 A. I don't know.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So Kunjarac.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]Kunjarac, yes. There is a hill

23 right behind Bjelovac, and it should be this one. Yes, this one right

24 here. I know because there is a water works that supplies Bratunac.

25 That was built here.

Page 7999

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness puts a spot, plots a spot on the

2 man, a circle, right above Biljaca. Thank you.

3 MR. JONES: Loznicka Rijeka is also mentioned.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then this could be Loznicka Rijeka

6 and Bjelovacka Rijeka. If that was the name. Could be this one, because

7 Loznicka is right here. But I'm not sure about this. You must

8 understand I'm not entirely certain.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


11 Q. And on this conversation, and I'm asking you based on your

12 experience as a radio ham, that you agree that what this conversation

13 reflects is aircraft being scrambled, being given coordinates and told

14 where to target?

15 A. That's obvious, isn't it.

16 Q. That's at 8.43, 8.44 in the morning, correct?

17 A. Yes. Must be.

18 MR. JONES: I've come to an end of one subject. Perhaps this

19 will be a good time?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will have the break now. 25

21 minutes, yes. Yes, I hinted to Mr. Jones and I think he agrees with it

22 that this part of the video from whichever.

23 MR. JONES: It will be tendered.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest to you that you tender it

25 separately as your own exhibit.

Page 8000

1 MR. JONES: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Together with this would be point 1. I don't know

3 the sequential number.

4 MR. JONES: I've lost track myself.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't remember either. So what would be the

6 next?


8 JUDGE AGIUS: D271 and the transcript would be 271.1.

9 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. And if need be, I don't

10 think there is any dispute, but we can easily show that it's part of 428.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think that's being contested, I don't know.

12 Is that being contested, Ms. Richardson?

13 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. Although I have to say that

14 the witness has said that there were other people videotaping and he's

15 not certain but I think it's a possibility that it's his --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: If you wants to pursue the matter, perhaps you can

17 ask him that -- is that very short clip which is obviously an

18 interruption in the video which shows part of a film that must have been

19 recorded before, if we can show it to him and he can perhaps tell us

20 about it, whether he remembers. But I got the impression that on second

21 thoughts the witness is quite sure that this video was shot by him.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, so did I, Your Honour. But just so that

23 we are just to be as accurate as we can be perhaps we can ask him as well

24 if that part -- portion of the tape that shows that clip sort of confirms

25 100 per cent his --

Page 8001

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. We will show it to him after the

2 break.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: I don't think there is any harm done in being

4 secure about this.

5 MR. JONES: The Prosecution can put questions in re-examination.

6 I don't want the Prosecution to be putting my questions in

7 cross-examination.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's resume at 11.00 sharp, thank you.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.


12 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I asked the witness to -- my apologies.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Your client hasn't sat down as yet. I understand

14 there is a problem or something you wanted to raise.

15 MR. JONES: I wanted the witness to be kept out just briefly

16 there is a clarification and an objection, if you like, about this --

17 concerning this video. Now, I listed evidence from this witness as to

18 whether the first part of the video was something which he taped or not,

19 and I asked questions and he eventually, it's page 29, line 20 --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: He gave the impression --

21 MR. JONES: Yes, in fact the end of it was "I analysed the

22 situation. I can say I was the one who taped it."

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I read it.

24 MR. JONES: At the close of the first -- before the first break,

25 my point, which I rose was simply a technical point that this extract was

Page 8002

1 an extract of a Prosecution exhibit - in other words, there is P428 and

2 we had just taken a bit of it and put subtitles on it. And it was simply

3 to find out whether the Prosecution contested that in order to avoid the

4 exercise.

5 At that point, my learned friend, Ms. Richardson, sought to

6 revisit the area of whether this witness was sure that he had taped that

7 part of the video. Completely different question, firstly, sought to put

8 a question which is better saved for re-examination as to whether he's

9 sure. But, worse, suggested to the witness, because she said, what Ms.

10 Richardson said is he's not certain but it's a possibility that it's his,

11 as to that extract. So in other words, misstated the evidence because

12 that's not the evidence; but then clearly suggested to this witness that

13 they don't -- the Prosecution doesn't want him to be sure that he taped

14 that clip. Certainly the witness hearing that might think, perhaps I

15 shouldn't be so sure about this.

16 It's completely inappropriate. It amounts to trying to discuss

17 the evidence before -- in front of the witness and I've had the sense to

18 keep the witness out when we discuss the evidence and I trust that my

19 learned friends won't do anything like that again because it could

20 contaminate the evidence this witness if he gets the impression that he

21 should be unsure.

22 If Ms. Richardson wants to put questions in re-examination that's

23 the appropriate moment for it.

24 I wanted to state that objection on the record firstly, but also

25 because we will now - because the Prosecution hasn't been clear about

Page 8003

1 this - we will demonstrate that this is part of P428. We can even do it

2 without the witness although we I think we should do it with the witness

3 simply by cueing that one part of the anomalous part of the video where

4 there is the scene from some film and show that that's on P428 and

5 continues on the rest of the video which we saw in P316.

6 I want to make that completely clear because I don't want my

7 learned friend popping up and objecting and suggesting any more to this

8 witness that maybe he didn't film this section. That's not the exercise.

9 The exercise is simply to show that our exhibit is part of P428. As I

10 said, we don't even really need the witness for that demonstration.

11 So I would ask my learned friend not to do anything like that

12 again and also not to, as happened one or twice this morning, interrupt

13 witnesses when they are answering. Your Honour has been quite clear

14 that --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't allowed Ms. Richardson to interrupt, in

16 any case. Yes, and I think as regards the point raised, yes what are

17 your comments?

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour I'll keep it brief. First of all, I

19 think it's -- since we are a number of us are from adversarial systems

20 when an objection is -- when a question is posed that is objectionable it

21 is the right of the Prosecution to raise to his feet, to not pop but to

22 raise to its feet and lodge an objection to the Court. And Your Honour,

23 I have been quite, I think, mindful when you have indicated to me not to

24 object.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's skip this part.

Page 8004

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Secondly, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that is under control.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Secondly Your Honour, I would just say with

4 respect to my response regarding our objection to the video, it was in

5 direct response to Your Honour's question if the Prosecution was

6 objecting. And I think it was in this discourse that I indicated that I

7 had some concerns about portions of the tape and just to ensure that this

8 was in fact the videotape of the witness. Because I did not recollect as

9 accurately as Mr. Jones just pointed out, clearly because he looked at

10 LiveNote that the witness was emphatically certain that it was his.

11 So I was trying to simply get to that point and not in any way to

12 influence the witness's testimony. I think this witness is -- will be

13 very honest about that. So I in no way tried to influence his testimony.

14 When Your Honour is finished, I'd like to raise a point myself on another

15 matter.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In actual fact the only problem is that you

17 should have stopped the moment I pointed out to you that the witness had

18 earlier on in his testimony made it clear that he recollected -- he

19 remembered this video to have been shot by him.

20 But anyway, I consider the chapter closed. And if you have any

21 other matter to -- you would like to raise please do it now.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honours. My the point that I'd like

23 to raise is a matter that I observed myself during the time that we were

24 in recess when counsel, Mr. Jones, attempted to access the computer of

25 the legal officer, which I think is inappropriate behaviour for either of

Page 8005

1 these parties.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which legal officer?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: The legal officer in front of you, Your Honour.

4 I'm pointing it out to the Court Your Honour so everybody can be

5 aware that I think, first of all, that this is inappropriate behaviour

6 and I don't think that this should have been attempted and not saying Mr.

7 Jones was able to access it, but he did attempt to. And I did raise the

8 matter with him that I thought that was not a good idea.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this your? What happened? One moment, Mr.

10 Jones.

11 MR. JONES: May I respond, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, let me hear --

13 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I respond?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: Can I say this is an absolutely scandalous accusation

16 that the Prosecution is making. It's the sort of tit-for-tat, it seems,

17 for the fact that I raised a proper matter. But I'm practically lost for

18 words because I can't believe the Prosecution would actually try --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, tell us what happened because she made a

20 very serious accusation.

21 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not true tell us what your version of it.

23 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. After the after the break we

24 realised that we didn't have access to LiveNote. Because of using the

25 videos I couldn't have LiveNote here. It hadn't been connected on that

Page 8006

1 computer I needed to check precisely what the witness had said on this

2 subject of the video. I went to the registry bench, thinking perhaps I

3 could look there on LiveNote. I realised it was inappropriate and I went

4 over to the stenographers instead. The stenographers were here in the

5 courtroom. Ms. Richardson was here. Ms. Henry-Frijlink was here. They

6 were two feet away from me. I said I'm going to check LiveNote on the

7 Registry bench. Ms. Richardson did in fact say, I don't think that's

8 appropriate.

9 I immediately went over, as the stenographers can confirm, the

10 gentleman in the corner, and I said can you please check this reference

11 and he very kindly obliged.

12 As I left the courtroom, I saw the legal officer and I said to

13 her, By the way I was going to try to get LiveNote on your computer and I

14 realised I shouldn't do so. I informed her specifically during the break

15 that I had briefly floated in the direction of her computer and then

16 thought better of it and gone to the stenographer. The stenographer can

17 confirm that he helped me find that section of the transcript. Anyone

18 can confirm that I didn't touch the computer and the fact that Ms.

19 Richardson has raised it is really beneath her and beneath me. I'm

20 frankly scandalised.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: May I respond.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Certainly this is not a tit-for-tat situation.

24 In fact I approached the usher prior to us coming into the courtroom and

25 told her I was going to raise the matter and that I did not want the

Page 8007

1 witness to be brought in. I raised the matter with the senior trial

2 attorney, Your Honour, Mr. Wubben, and we decided we would raise this

3 matter. And I had no idea that Mr. Jones was going to raise the matter

4 that he did. So it's certainly not a tit for tat. And Mr. Jones was

5 poised at the computer when I indicated to him this was not a good idea

6 and there were witnesses here, Your Honour, who can testify to that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. We are suspending the --

8 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I say just one thing. If I were

9 going to accuses the computer of your legal officer, to do that in front

10 of two members of the Prosecution bench, in front of a lot of witnesses

11 would be, frankly, completely absurd. There is an absolute storm in a

12 tea cup. I briefly drifted over, thinking I could check the LiveNote,

13 because I was in a hurry to find out what the transcript was. I went

14 over and got it from another source. I think it's deeply unfair and

15 deeply unprofessional for Ms. Richardson --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It's finished. No more arguments, please, Mr.

18 Jones and Ms. Richardson. The matter is closed for the time being. We

19 are going out to discuss it very briefly. We will be back in about two

20 minutes.

21 --- Break taken at 11.16 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.19 a.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, which one of the stenographers did you

24 speak with?

25 MR. JONES: The gentleman.

Page 8008

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The gentleman, all right.

2 So I think that you will need to answer our question and at the

3 same time keep typing.

4 So you heard what Mr. Jones said earlier on.


6 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you confirm his statement?

7 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, he came over and asked to see

8 the LiveNote.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And? Yes. And what happened?

10 THE COURT REPORTER: I showed him the LiveNote and he wrote in

11 longhand what he was reading on the screen.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And at the time, who was present in the courtroom?

13 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I can't remember.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember Mr. Jones approaching the legal

15 officers?


17 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't. And do you remember an exchange of

18 words between Ms. Richardson and Mr. Jones?


20 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see Mr. Jones at any time touching or using

21 any of the -- desktops or notebooks that we have here?

22 THE COURT REPORTER: No, I didn't.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think at this point in time, the

24 matter rests here. However, we would like to make it clear that if

25 either of you have got a problem and you need to access the LiveNote

Page 8009

1 because it is not readily available on the system that you have at your

2 disposal, that you approach either the Registrar or the other party for

3 that matter, but that you do not try to use any of the sets that we have

4 here, particularly the legal officer attached to Chamber, of course, who

5 is here at our disposal and not at your disposal. However we are

6 satisfied that nothing really wrong did occur on this occasion.

7 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I first went to that laptop

8 and there wasn't LiveNote on there.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You won't find it. I was trying to explain to --

10 outside that the Registrar's would be the last laptop I would approach

11 for LiveNote because usually they are doing other work, like monitoring

12 the documents and other stuff.

13 MR. JONES: May I even say just two further points. I actually

14 even looked at the Prosecution and said generally can anyone help me with

15 LiveNote and I realised it wasn't appropriate or they weren't going to

16 help me and I went to that gentleman over there. And secondly, can I

17 just say, from where I come from, there is a code of honour and decency

18 and professional courtesy and one doesn't make scurrilous comments about

19 one's colleagues at the Bench without just cause.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right. It's finished. I'm not going to

21 hear about this. I'm not going to hear more about this. Ms. Richardson,

22 finished. The matter is closed. So let's bring in the witness and we

23 continue.

24 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 8010

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. My apologies to you, Mr. Okanovic, for having

2 kept you longer than we had indicated earlier on. We had a technical and

3 procedural matter that we needed to discuss, which was of no interest --

4 would not have been of any interest to you. So we finished with that and

5 we can now continue. And hopefully finish today.

6 MR. JONES: Yes, I should be very brief, actually.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes.

8 MR. JONES: Apologies from me, too, Mr. Okanovic for you being

9 unduly delayed in coming back here.

10 Q. I'm simply going to show you a clip of video in which you may

11 recognise that there is a segment with what appears to be a film,

12 possibly a western, which appears briefly and then it carries on. Just

13 to confirm that it's the same video that we saw this morning. So if we

14 could just play that now.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. JONES: Actually, we'll keep playing because it continues.

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. Do you recognise that as being again the footage which you were

20 shown, in fact P316 which starts at 9.23? Do you recognise it's the

21 footage that you shot?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. Thank you.

24 MR. JONES: It's just to say that that is Exhibit -- that's P428.

25 Just for Your Honour's benefit so it's clear where that comes from,

Page 8011

1 unless the Prosecution contests that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one question. This 428 and 316, were they

3 originally one video or two separate videos? Because -- I think it's the

4 Prosecution that can help us on this.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may. Apparently this, the

6 first portion of this video was seized from one individual or taken from

7 one particular institution. The portion that I showed yesterday was

8 taken from -- was taken from another individual who has been a witness in

9 this case. So it appears as though that the video was made - and perhaps

10 the witness can give us more information about that - the video was made

11 and there were copies, evidently, by various people made of his video

12 which is why it ended up in different hands which is -- which also

13 explains why we received them from different individuals at different

14 times.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Okanovic, you heard my question and you

16 also heard the explanation forthcoming from Ms. Richardson. What's your

17 version of -- on this? Was this originally one video recording which has

18 ended up in bits and pieces in the hands of several persons? What

19 happened?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I don't have

21 the original. I thought my children had erased it. However, somebody

22 evidently took it from me without my knowledge, and what happened to it,

23 I really don't know. I do not have the original.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And that part, that very short clip, one second

25 maximum, two seconds, from a film, which seems to be a western or

Page 8012

1 something like that it was suggested. Do you remember that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No but I can tell you how it's

3 possible. It's a small VHS tape and someone might have recorded

4 something on it previously, and then -- if you interrupt the filming and

5 there is a short break, and so the previous recording is left there. I

6 have no other explanation.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And you don't remember that film on the reel,

8 on the tape?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Mr. Jones.

11 MR. JONES: We won't go into it here, but we do have chain of

12 custody details for P316 and P428 and we also have a Rule 68 issue as far

13 as that's concerned. But I won't go into that now.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't think we should go into that in the

15 presence of the witness in any case. Yes, let's proceed.

16 MR. JONES: Yes.

17 Q. Now on a different subject you were asked on Friday about a radio

18 conversation in which the husband of a lady who had gone missing in

19 Bjelovac came to you and you referred to conversations you had with

20 someone who used the code name Gazda. Do you recall that, giving that

21 evidence? Sorry, you do need to give a verbal answer.

22 A. [No interpretation] [Realtime transcript read in error: "Nerpgs

23 nerpgs"]

24 Q. Firstly whether Gazda was in fact Naser Oric, that was an

25 assumption that you and perhaps others made; correct?

Page 8013

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's clear this. Witness, when you answer,

3 please try to -- yes exactly. To be as near the microphone as possible.

4 And I would just for the record point out that his answer to the

5 previous question, not to the last question, when it was pointed out to

6 him that he needs to give a verbal answer, page 49, line 5. As his

7 answer, on page -- on line 6, we have "nerpgs nerpgs" which I don't know

8 what it means but I definitely heard him say DA, as I heard him say DA

9 also in reply to the last question.

10 In order to avoid any possibility of having -- being mistaken in

11 this I would suggest that you put the question again, Mr. Jones, or I can

12 read out the question to the witness myself.

13 MR. JONES: That's fine. I can deal with it briefly.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You were asked, Mr. Okanovic, firstly whether Gazda

15 was in fact Naser Oric that was an assumption that you and perhaps others

16 made. Is that correct? And I heard you say DA, reply DA. Did you reply

17 DA?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.


21 Q. An assumption, but something you didn't know for sure?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It was put to you by the Prosecution that you believed Gazda was

24 Naser Oric. I'd suggest that's not the way to put it. It was at most a

25 working hypothesis, wasn't it, that perhaps he was Naser Oric?

Page 8014

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Wouldn't it be right to say that the identity of Gazda wasn't

3 particularly important to you on your side because he was simply a point

4 of contact on the Muslim side?

5 A. No. It was quite obvious that this was an important person.

6 Q. You never heard Gazda refer to himself as Naser or Naser Oric,

7 did you?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. Isn't it right also that you heard people on the radio say on one

10 or more occasions, you're Naser or you're Naser Oric, but he never

11 confirmed that? Gazda never confirmed it?

12 A. That's right. That's what I heard.

13 Q. Finally, I think this is clear but you didn't know Naser Oric

14 before the war, did you?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. And on the subject of people you knew before the war, didn't you

17 know at least one other Naser, Naser Sulejmanovic who worked with you at

18 the tile factory, Kaolin, in Bratunac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you know that he was -- did you know that he was a radio

21 operator in Srebrenica during the war?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you know he was a radio ham or had some sort of activity

24 involving radios?

25 A. No, I don't think he was a ham radio operator.

Page 8015

1 Q. Now, in terms of contacting Gazda, on this occasion, it was

2 essentially missing person query, wasn't it? Someone was missing and you

3 were seeking information as to where she was. Would that be correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I think you told us that that sort of a query was something which

6 was out on the radio the whole time because families had been split up

7 and they were trying to find each other.

8 A. Yes. But here the issue was whether the woman had jumped into

9 the Drina or whether she had been captured.

10 Q. Would you accept that you didn't contact him because you knew him

11 to be in charge of anything in particular, he was a contact albeit an

12 important one, on the Muslim side who you thought might be able to help?

13 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. He was an important

14 person over there, a person introducing himself as Gazda was the most

15 important person on the other side. So he was the only person you have

16 to communicate with about anything.

17 Q. It was really this: That you didn't know what if any

18 competencies Gazda had, did you? You don't know what he was in charge of

19 or anything. He was an important contact on the Muslim side.

20 A. I didn't know.

21 Q. Now, of course this conversation took place 13 years ago. Would

22 it be correct that you don't remember the exact words that were used by

23 you or Gazda in discussing the fate of this woman?

24 A. I can't remember word for word.

25 Q. The husband -- I don't know if you recall the name of the husband

Page 8016

1 now, do you?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. Was he a friend of yours before he came and asked to use your

4 radio or asked to be put in touch through the radio? Sorry, you need to

5 give a verbal answer. You didn't know this gentleman beforehand?

6 A. No. I didn't. I certainly didn't.

7 Q. And the husband didn't indicate any desire to try and speak to

8 Gazda on the radio, did he? He didn't say let me speak to him or

9 anything like that?

10 A. You're asking me about a great many details. All I can say is I

11 don't remember. He may have; he may not have. I can neither confirm nor

12 deny.

13 Q. He was staying at your house, I believe, at the time, and you

14 said that he was by the radio the whole time. As far as you were

15 concerned, was he free to use the radio himself directly to speak on the

16 radio?

17 A. He was free to use the radio, yes.

18 Q. You never told him, "Don't touch the radio, that's mine." He was

19 free to use it?

20 A. No. Why would I? It's very simple. You just push a button and

21 you start speaking. It's nothing special.

22 Q. All right. And I think you told us that the gist of the

23 conversation was that -- with Gazda was that this woman hadn't been

24 captured as a prisoner but rather evacuated from a situation of danger

25 and that she would be returned to her own people, that that's what Gazda

Page 8017

1 told you? Would you accept that?

2 A. No. It was obvious that she had been captured. If she had been

3 evacuated, she would have been returned a mere several days later. So I

4 think the question is strange.

5 Q. I was actually referring to what Gazda said to you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you did, but you also asked him would you

7 accept that? So in answering the way he did, I can understand him

8 perfectly well.

9 MR. JONES: I can rephrase it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You either rephrase it or --

11 MR. JONES: Yes.

12 Q. Was the gist of what Gazda said that he had evacuated -- or not

13 he, but that she had been evacuated for her safety and would be returned?

14 A. I don't remember what he said. I only know he said she was doing

15 fine, that she was with them, and that there would be no problems. But I

16 can't recall any specific details of the conversation.

17 Q. And you learnt after her release, didn't you, that she had been

18 kept in a private house in Srebrenica, not in any sort of prison?

19 A. That's what she said.

20 Q. Now, I know you don't remember the details of this conversation,

21 but it's right, isn't it, that the -- what was said by Gazda was

22 perfectly correct, he didn't say anything menacing or unpleasant or

23 inflammatory?

24 A. No. I can't say that. In this particular communication, he was

25 very correct and for the most part the other people were correct too.

Page 8018

1 Q. Some final questions just about radio equipment. You told us

2 about the walkie-talkie which you had. You described how it didn't have

3 much of a range particularly in mountainous terrain. Would you agree

4 with that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in fact the whole terrain around Srebrenica is famously hilly

7 and mountainous, isn't it?

8 A. Yes, but if I may just add something. If this device is used

9 from a hill top, then the range is quite large. If you speak from a

10 depression, from a valley, if you use the UKV range, then the range is

11 not very large because the UKV requires a certain degree of optical

12 visibility. To keep things simple, if you use it from a hill top, then

13 the range is quite large. If you use it from a depression or a valley,

14 it's in fact quite small.

15 Q. And these villages we have been discussing, Bjelovac, Sikiric,

16 Pirici, they are all in a valley, aren't they? The Drina valley.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Separated by Srebrenica by hills?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now you mentioned that if you had a relay you could overcome this

21 difficulty in some ways and that you could, I suppose, effectively

22 transmit to the relay and then the relay could send the message on. It's

23 a technical matter, firstly.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you aware that the relays on the tops of the hills in that

Page 8019

1 area, the Srebrenica area, were destroyed by the Serbs at the start of

2 the war? Is that something you're aware of?

3 A. You're talking about the TV relay stations, but both sides built

4 their own temporary relays. There were a number of those but I'm not

5 sure about their positions.

6 Q. You can't confirm whether there were any of those in the

7 Srebrenica area in 1992, any improvised relays on the Muslim side?

8 A. They were somewhere.

9 Q. And you also said that the walkie-talkie, its range could be

10 increased if an aerial was fixed to it instead of the aerial which it

11 comes with. Isn't it right that if that's done then it essentially has

12 to be kept stationary at a location because it's a large aerial so you

13 can't walk around with it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And as far as that antenna is concerned, that is something which

16 wouldn't be easy to come by, would it, during the war or which wasn't

17 easy to come by, in 1992?

18 A. You made it yourself.

19 Q. Thank you. No further questions?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Jones. Is there

21 re-examination, Ms. Richardson?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Just briefly, Your Honour.

23 Re-examined by Ms. Richardson:

24 Q. Mr. Okanovic, you testified that you knew Naser Sulejmanovic

25 prior to the war; is that correct?

Page 8020

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At any point during the time that you overheard communication

3 with Gazda and any time that you spoke to him, were you under the

4 impression that that's the Naser you were speaking with?

5 A. Which Naser are you now referring to, Sulejmanovic or Oric?

6 Q. I'll rephrase the question. Was Gazda, as far as you were aware,

7 was that Naser Sulejmanovic who you worked with?

8 A. Certainly not. I knew this person well, and I was his immediate

9 superior.

10 Q. So --

11 A. I never heard his voice on any of the radio frequencies.

12 Q. Thank you. Now I would just like to ask you a few questions with

13 respect to the transcript that you read during the time that we were

14 watching the video and certain portions of it that -- or all of it,

15 actually, you confirmed.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could ask the usher's assistance in handing

17 the B/C/S version of the transcript to the witness so that I can put just

18 a few questions to him. 271, Prosecution -- Defence Exhibit, excuse me,

19 271.1.

20 Q. If you look at the portion which -- the portion of the

21 conversation occurs at -- let's begin with 022, the first voice. "Are

22 you heading towards Bjelovac," of course I'm reading from the English

23 version. 025 says the second voice says, "We are stopped we have stopped

24 we cannot go forward we need help urgently."

25 Were you under the impression at the time when you overheard this

Page 8021

1 discussion on the radio that these individuals were in fact in Sikiric or

2 in Bjelovac at 8.43, which is the time that the videotape was made?

3 A. I can't comment on that. I really don't know where they were

4 stopped. This was something you heard on the radio. So -- I don't think

5 I could possibly comment.

6 Q. And just to confirm, I'd like to point you to another portion of

7 the transcript at 0043. And you asked about the bombs being dropped and

8 whether or not this conversation had -- was in any way connected with

9 that. At 043 it says, "You heard the precise coordinates the hell.

10 Screw it take the rest there if it is there look at the map which are the

11 coordinates."

12 So it means Pirici, Bjelovacka Rijeka. Now as far as you were

13 aware, these are areas outside of the village of Sikiric?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And further down, well certainly I'll -- I'll rephrase the

16 question. With respect to where you saw the bombs being or falling, does

17 this -- is this consistent with where -- the areas that you saw the bombs

18 falling?

19 MR. JONES: I object to that question. Really, what the witness

20 should be asked is whether he recalls where bombs fell. To talk about

21 what's consistent with this transcript which already he said he can't

22 comment on is -- I mean it's speculative. It leads nowhere. Anything is

23 consistent, conceivably with bombs dropping there but they may have also

24 dropped on Sikiric. So he should be asked really where he saw bombs

25 dropping and then we'll get there.

Page 8022

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's perfectly in order. I think first

2 you would need to ask the witness whether he can be specific or more

3 specific.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour. I can pose the

5 question in a different manner.

6 Q. Mr. Okanovic, whether you saw the bombs being dropped as you were

7 videotaping the plane, the planes, were you able to determine where it

8 was that those bombs fell?

9 A. They fell in different places. Some fell into the River Drina.

10 Some fell on the village further down, and some fell in the hills. The

11 area covered is a bit too large to be more specific about where each of

12 the bombs fell.

13 Q. When you said they fell on the village further down, do you mean

14 it fell on the houses themselves or in the vicinity of the houses or

15 further down from the actual houses?

16 MR. JONES: He should just be asked what does he mean by further

17 down.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Answer the question, please. And can you be

19 specific. You just said that -- in describing where you saw the bombs

20 falling, you said "on the village further down." Did you actually see

21 bombs falling on houses or in the vicinity of houses, or further -- the

22 question was further down or -- anyway, I think it's self-explanatory or

23 further away from the actual houses.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing that I saw clearly

25 were bombs falling in the hills above the houses. Above Sikiric. Most

Page 8023

1 of the bombs fell there.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Is the witness --

3 Q. Mr. Okanovic, have you completed your answer?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Judge Brydensholt do you

7 have any questions? Judge Eser has some questions for you, Mr. Okanovic.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Okanovic, with regard to the village, which

10 village did you mean? I think we heard from you that Bjelovac consisted

11 of different parts and one part was Sikiric. Now, when you spoke of

12 village, which part of Bjelovac did you have in mind?

13 A. In relation to what? What exactly do you mean? What's the

14 reference to Sikiric about?

15 JUDGE ESER: We were speaking, or you have been asked where the

16 bombs fell, and you talked about a village. Now, I'm not quite clear

17 what you mean with village because Bjelovac, as you have told, consisted

18 or was composed of the centre of Bjelovac and some other places, hamlets,

19 south of Bjelovac and north of Bjelovac. Now, when you spoke of village,

20 which part did you mean?

21 A. Sikiric, Sikiric. Yes, that part. There was fire there, and

22 then the hill above that village is where most of the bombs fell.

23 JUDGE ESER: When you had testified that there was shooting going

24 on, was this shooting also only in Sikiric or also in other parts of

25 Bjelovac?

Page 8024

1 A. I really can't pinpoint the exact location. The sound was coming

2 from across the Drina but I can't tell where from exactly, and I don't

3 think I should be speculating. It was a very narrow angle of vision, too

4 narrow for me to tell precisely where it was coming from but I think some

5 of the fighting occurred in Sikiric but that's only my assumption.

6 Although there is reference here to Bjelovac and to Kunjarac but that's

7 further down. I really can't say.

8 JUDGE ESER: You testified that Bjelovac was a mixed village,

9 Muslims and Serbs. Does it mean that the mixture was within this hamlets

10 or have there been certain areas which have been mainly Serbs and others

11 which have been mainly Muslim and others which have been both? Was -- I

12 hope you got my question.

13 A. I think I did get your question, but I don't know where they were

14 respectively, but it was all mixed. This whole area next to the river

15 Drina was mixed. Muslim settlements prevailed but then there were Serb

16 settlements too but I'd be hard put to say anything more definite about

17 this.

18 JUDGE ESER: Thank you, no further questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Eser. I have got two short

20 questions a part of which I think we have already dealt with but I just

21 want to make sure of something.

22 Whenever you had radio contact, radio conversation, with this

23 Gazda that you mentioned, was it always the same voice that you heard at

24 the other end?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8025

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I -- thank you. And you also gave us to

2 understand last Friday, in particular, that you also intercepted or you

3 heard conversations, radio conversations, between this Gazda and others.

4 The Gazda that you heard in conversation, in radio conversation with

5 others, was it also the same person, the same voice, or not?

6 A. Yes. Yes, the same person. Same voice.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Same voice, yes. And throughout this period, I

8 think you may have answered this question, but throughout this period,

9 did you ever come across any other radio conversation that you overheard

10 in which someone else was referred to or he referred himself to as Gazda?

11 A. No. It was always the same voice.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that brings us to an end -- or brings

13 your testimony to an end, not us, we've still got a lot of work to do.

14 Mr. Okanovic, on behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser and

15 myself of course, but also on behalf of the Tribunal in general, I would

16 like to thank you for having come over to give testimony in this case

17 against Naser Oric.

18 You will now be assisted by our staff, who will help you return

19 back home at the earliest opportunity, and you should not encounter any

20 problems there.

21 On behalf of everyone present also, I should like to wish you a

22 safe journey back home.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So, the position is we need to adjourn now.

Page 8026

1 Witness number 45, I don't think he enjoys any protective measures but I

2 would rather not mention the name. I take it that he has arrived? And

3 that he's being briefed -- or not briefed, proofed?

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And that you still need tomorrow to finish

6 the proofing?

7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour, indeed.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And that he will testify, start his testimony, on

9 Wednesday, in other words.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Correct, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anything else before we adjourn?

12 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, so tomorrow we will not be

14 sitting because of the proofing of this witness and we will reconvene on

15 Wednesday in the afternoon. I think it's this same courtroom. All

16 right. Thanks a lot. See you on Wednesday.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.00, to

18 be reconvened on Wednesday, 11 May, 2005,

19 at 2.15 p.m.