Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9183

1 Tuesday, 5 July 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's start. Could you call the case please,

6 Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in a language that you

11 can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

13 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good morning to you. You may sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

17 lead counsel for the Prosecution, also good morning to my learned friends

18 from the Defence. I'm here together with co-counsel, Mr. Gramsci Di

19 Fazio, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager,

20 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name

24 is Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for

25 Mr. Oric. With us are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our

Page 9184

1 CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts -- I do apologise, Ms. Adisa Mehic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. She seems to like the other name better

3 because she was smiling.

4 So Mr. Jones, I will -- and Madam Vidovic, I will be meeting the

5 head of all other -- 12.30 in my office, in my Chamber, and we'll report

6 back to you on outcome of the talks after we resume.

7 Any preliminaries? Mr. Wubben.

8 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Regarding the 65 ter transcript, I

9 would like to submit the position of the Office of the Prosecutor. It is

10 a general principle that it should be that 65 ter transcripts should be

11 confidential. Given, however, the exceptional circumstances of this case,

12 in particular the initiative by this Trial Chamber and the functioning of

13 cutting down the witness list, that consideration -- the Prosecution

14 believes that lifting the seal will not undermine in principle.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

16 So the 65 ter transcript will remain in the records, however, in

17 an unsealed form. In other words, it will be publicly filed. All right.

18 Next witness, Izet Redzic.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Redzic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you all.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you are receiving interpretation.

23 And if at any moment you're not receiving interpretation in your language

24 or the volume of the interpretation is high -- too high or too low, please

25 draw our attention and we'll rectify the problem straight away.

Page 9185

1 You are about to start giving evidence as one of the first

2 witnesses of the Defence. You know that you are testifying in the case

3 instituted against Naser Oric. According to our Rules, before you start

4 giving evidence you are required to enter a solemn declaration, to make a

5 solemn declaration, to the effect that in the course of your testimony you

6 will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth;

7 it's equivalent to an oath that you would take in many national

8 jurisdictions, sometimes swearing on the Bible, sometimes swearing on the

9 Koran, sometimes on other things.

10 So the usher, who's standing next to you, is going to hand you the

11 text of the solemn declaration. I kindly ask you to read it out loud and

12 that will be your testimony -- your solemn declaration, your solemn

13 undertaking, with this Tribunal that you will be testifying the truth.

14 Please proceed.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

18 What's going to happen now, you're going to be asked a series of

19 questions by Madam Vidovic, who is lead counsel for Naser Oric in this

20 case. When she's finished, then -- who will be taking --

21 Madam Joanne Richardson on the Prosecution side will cross-examine you.

22 You have an obligation in terms of the solemn declaration that you have

23 just made to answer all questions irrespective of who is putting these

24 questions to you. In other words, irrespective of whether they are coming

25 from the Prosecution or from the Defence, you have an obligation to answer

Page 9186

1 them truthfully and as fully and to the best of your knowledge as

2 possible.

3 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, may I

5 sit while examining the witness?


7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Ms. Vidovic:

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Redzic.

12 A. Good morning.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave I will

14 lead in the first part of my examination as regards the witness's personal

15 details.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Redzic, in view of the fact that we speak the same language,

19 when I complete my question please make a brief pause in order to give the

20 interpreters time to interpret the question and then start your answer so

21 that the Chamber can understand what we are saying and that it can enter

22 the record. Do you understand we?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Mr. Redzic, will you please tell us your full name?

25 A. Izet Redzic.

Page 9187

1 Q. You're a Bosniak?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You were born on the 19th of January, 1955, in the village of

4 Dzemat, Vlasenica municipality?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Your father's name is Mustafa and your mother's name is Hanka?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You completed the primary school and the secondary school for

9 mechanical engineering in Vlasenica?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. From 1978 to 1982 you studied mechanical engineering in Subotica

12 in Serbia?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You graduated from mechanical engineering in 1982?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You did your military service in 1974 in Ljubljana and in 1975 in

17 Ljubljana and Pula?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This was the technical services and you were a mechanic for

20 weaponry. Am I correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Your first job was in Sarajevo in 1974 and you worked in

23 UnionInvest as a locksmith?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You left that job in 1978 and then went to study in Subotica?

Page 9188

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After this in 1982 you returned to Vlasenica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You then got a job in the bauxite mine in Vlasenica and you were

5 manager of machine maintenance. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You remained at this job until the multi-party elections in Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina in 1990?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. From 1986 until 1990 before the multi-party elections, you were a

11 deputy in the Assembly of Vlasenica municipality, an assemblyman that is,

12 for the associated labour council?

13 Q. After the multi-party elections, by a decision of the parliament,

14 you were appointed president of the Executive Board of the Vlasenica

15 Municipal Assembly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After the war in 1996 you started to work in the Ministry of

18 Transport and Communications of the Tuzla Podrinje canton?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In 2004 you testified before this Tribunal for the OTP in another

21 case regarding certain facts, facts I will ask you about today. Is this

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Redzic --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Which was the other case, please,

Page 9189

1 Madam? I mean, we need it for the record. I know, but we need it for the

2 record.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 Q. Was this the Prosecutor versus Krajisnik?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Redzic.

7 Mr. Redzic, it is clear from your personal details that you grew

8 up in north-eastern Bosnia. Is this the Tuzla region?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Are you familiar with this area?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before the war, did this area have its own regional organisation?

13 A. Yes, it was called a subregion.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

15 witness a map. So that the Chamber may follow what the witness is saying,

16 we will use maps.

17 Q. Is this an excerpt from the road map of the former SFRY, and the

18 scale is 1:500.000. The map is already on the ELMO.

19 Mr. Redzic, please indicate to the Chamber on the map before you,

20 which we can see on our computer screens, which municipalities were

21 comprised in the area you have just called a subregion?

22 A. Zvornik.

23 Q. Can you find Zvornik on the map?

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Mr. Redzic, I believe you have a pen before you. Could you please

Page 9190

1 circle Zvornik with it.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Can you please show the others?

4 A. Bratunac.

5 Q. Very well.

6 A. Srebrenica, Vlasenica, and Sekovici. That's five municipalities

7 comprising the Zvornik subregion.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Redzic. And where was the seat?

9 A. The seat of the subregion was in Zvornik.

10 Q. Were there some joint bodies or institutions there?

11 A. Yes. There were some government bodies such as the state security

12 service and the state auditing service. As for political organisations,

13 there was the League of Communists and the Socialist League.

14 Q. Thank you. I will ask you again to leave some time before my

15 question and your response.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this map be marked

17 as a Defence exhibit, but I would like it to remain with the witness for a

18 while longer.

19 Q. Mr. Redzic --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's give it a number, please, Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D705, Your Honour.


23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Redzic, before the map is removed, could you please initial a

25 corner of the map.

Page 9191

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the map to be left with

4 Mr. Redzic for a while, please.

5 Q. Mr. Redzic, were you aware of the ethnic composition of the

6 municipality -- of the municipalities before the war?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you please explain to the Chamber the ethnic composition of

9 the population of north-eastern Bosnia according to the census of 1991,

10 bearing in mind the municipalities you circled on the map?

11 A. Let's take them in turn. As for Zvornik municipality it had 499

12 square metres; 81.111 inhabitants. According to the census of 1991, 59.5

13 per cent were Muslims; 38 per cent were Serbs; and the remainder were

14 others, Yugoslavs and undeclared. As for Bratunac municipality it had 293

15 square kilometres; 33.575 inhabitants; 64.4 per cent were Muslims; and

16 34.3 were Serbs. The remainder were Yugoslavs and neutral. Srebrenica

17 municipality had 5 --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the number of

19 square kilometres.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 73 per cent of the population were

21 Muslims; 25 per cent were Serbs; and the remainder were Yugoslavs or

22 unaffiliated.

23 As for Vlasenica municipality, it had 507 square kilometres;

24 33.817 inhabitants; 55.2 per cent were Muslims; 42.6 per cent were Serbs;

25 and the rest were others.

Page 9192

1 As for Sekovici municipality, it had 9.639 inhabitants; 184 square

2 kilometres. Of the total number of inhabitants I mentioned, 3.5 per cent

3 were Muslims, 95 per cent were Serbs, and the rest were Yugoslavs or

4 unaffiliated.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Redzic. When you were giving this information you

7 had in mind the situation according to the census of 1991. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Because you were speaking in the present tense, so we wish to

11 clarify this situation for the record. Very well. Thank you.

12 How did you arrive at this information? How do you know this

13 information?

14 A. As the president of the executive council, my role in 1991 was to

15 monitor this and to establish a commission of which I was the head and to

16 monitor the census and also the census of -- not only of the population

17 but also of all other goods and assets. And I was to execute the decision

18 of the parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina of 1991 regarding the census.

19 Q. Mr. Redzic, after the census, did you analyse the results of the

20 census and arrive at the data you have supplied?

21 A. Yes. That was my role and task because not only in the subregion

22 but all over Bosnia and Herzegovina I had to know all these details

23 because when we were dealing with economic social welfare or any other

24 needs, we had to have this data at our disposal.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 9193

1 Looking at the ethnic composition of the population, which part of

2 the population dominated in the Podrinje area?

3 A. Of the total number of inhabitants, 63 point something per cent

4 were Muslims in the subregion.

5 Q. Thank you very much. What were the inter-ethnic relations like

6 until just before the outbreak of the war in Podrinje?

7 A. Exceptionally good and friendly.

8 Q. Mr. Redzic, following the Chamber's instructions, I will not ask

9 you many questions about the breakup of Yugoslavia and the political

10 events in Bosnia and Herzegovina before the war. I will put only those

11 questions that are closely connected to our case. So although we

12 discussed many other matters, I will put only specific questions to you

13 now.

14 Please tell Their Honours what, in your opinion, had the greatest

15 impact on the changes in the climate, the atmosphere in Podrinje, starting

16 in 1989, if there were such changes at all?

17 A. Yes, of course there were changes. And the most important cause

18 was the flood of misinformation and untruths on the radio, television, and

19 the media, the infiltration of people from various republics who spread

20 hatred. The Serbs were told they were under threat. The Serb people were

21 intimidated, regardless of whether truths or falsehoods were used to

22 achieve that.

23 Q. Apart from this media activity, was there any influence by

24 government bodies outside Bosnia and Herzegovina as regards propaganda?

25 A. Yes. There was a report of the SDB of Serbia in mid-1989. The

Page 9194

1 state security services of Serbia issued some documents to show that Serbs

2 were moving out of Serbia and Bratunac in large numbers.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to show

4 the witness exhibit Defence number 635.

5 Q. This is a document of the republican SUP of Serbia, Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina, SDB, 7520; the date is 21st of September, 1989.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like to

8 say that in this document you may notice that certain things have been

9 underlined. I would like to say that the Defence has obtained this

10 document in this particular way, that the Defence has not underlined

11 anything in the document.

12 Q. Mr. Redzic, could you please look at the first part of this

13 document which reads -- I can see that you are looking at it already. I

14 am going to read it to you. "The Presidency of the Socialist Republic of

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the council for the protection of

16 constitutional order of Bosnia and Herzegovina at their sessions held on

17 the 20th of September, 1989, were informed by the republican SUP of the

18 SDB of Serbia, dated 24 August, 1989, that they received from a member of

19 the Presidency of the SFRY from Bosnia-Herzegovina Mr. Bogic Bogicevic,

20 that was given to him by Mr. Borisav Jovic, the vice-president of the

21 Presidency of Yugoslavia."

22 Now, look at the third paragraph, and I quote: "In view of the

23 information and such claims, as well as the fact that the SDB of the

24 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina has not received the cited

25 report from the SDB of the SR Serbia (which would be in accordance with

Page 9195

1 the work of the SDB rules and the already good cooperation between the

2 neighbouring SDB centres) and has not obtained this information through

3 its own work, nor have the statements from your reports. Strictly

4 confidential number..." is quoted here, "have been confirmed by your

5 intelligence work of which we informed you in our official document ..."

6 and the number is mentioned here, the date "24 July, 1989." You see the

7 date here, don't you? "We hereby request from the SDB of the Socialist

8 Republic of Serbia to urgently send the report to us, and the documents,

9 based on the dates on which it was compiled in order to fully inform the

10 competent organs and take the necessary measures in our competence."

11 Mr. Redzic, with this regard let me ask you this: You have just

12 told us that you were a member of the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica

13 during the period that comprised also the year 1989. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. During that period of time and in that capacity, did you receive

16 information that concerned political developments in the north-eastern

17 part of Bosnia in the region that is known as the subregion of Bosnia?

18 A. Yes. We as a parliamentary body received all this information for

19 the entire Bosnia; the subregion was the priority of those five

20 municipalities. At our meetings under the item "security situation in the

21 subregion and in the municipalities," we obtained this information that

22 was forwarded to us from the SDB of Serbia. Later on we were informed

23 because the police from the SDB informed the Assembly that the information

24 was not correct and that whatever one could read in newspapers and see on

25 TV was completely incorrect, and the goal of all that was completely

Page 9196

1 different.

2 Q. Thank you. You have told us that you resided and you -- that you

3 worked in that area. Did you have any information as to whether the Serb

4 population was moving out under the pressure of Muslims in that area?

5 A. Absolutely not. There may have been some movement because of the

6 earthworks in that area; however, there was no emigration [Realtime

7 transcript read in error "immigration"] under the pressure of Muslims.

8 That is absolutely incorrect.

9 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber how come that this

10 information and the propaganda that you have just spoken about had any

11 influence on the Serbian population of Podrinje?

12 A. The influence was good because the Serbs believed all this

13 information. They did not go into the essence of this information. From

14 that information onwards, all of a sudden the Serbs started separating

15 themselves from the rest of the population and they started getting closer

16 to Serbia and its leadership.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Redzic --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

19 JUDGE ESER: I have a question just to clarify the transcript.

20 The Defence was asking: "Did you have any information as to whether the

21 Serb population was moving out under pressure of the Muslims in that

22 area?"

23 And the answer was: "Absolutely not there was some movement

24 because of some earth works in that area in other words, there was no

25 immigration under the pressure of Muslims." I think that should read

Page 9197

1 "emigration"?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Emigration, yes.

3 JUDGE ESER: Is that correct?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, yes. You don't need to have an

5 answer from -- it's definitely emigration and not immigration.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.

7 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. With regard to this, Mr. Redzic, let me ask you this: Were people

10 moving from one municipality to another for economic reasons?

11 A. Yes. That was precisely the case. I have just said that people

12 moved from Srebrenica to Vlasenica for economic reasons because of the

13 exploitation of bauxite. In Srebrenica there were Serbs with their

14 property, and that was the only method, the only way, how a small

15 percentage of Serbs moved from Srebrenica to the territory of Vlasenica,

16 and that was the long and the short of it.

17 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Redzic. I'm now going to move to another

18 topic. At the sessions of the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica during the

19 year 1988 and 1989, did you discuss any issues that had to do with the

20 Territorial Defence?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was the cause of these discussions?

23 A. We received a written order from the republican institutions that

24 all the municipalities in the ex-Yugoslavia had to issue their municipal

25 decisions on the Territorial Defence and its equipment and their

Page 9198

1 accommodation and billeting in the barracks. This was a document of the

2 Main Staff of the Army of the former Yugoslavia.

3 Q. When it comes to the weapons and the other equipment of the

4 Territorial Defence, is there anything specific about the ownership of all

5 that?

6 A. Yes, absolutely yes. According to the concept of the Territorial

7 Defence, the Territorial Defence and all its assets were purchased by the

8 local population, i.e., the companies and socio-political organisations in

9 the area, and this weaponry could only be used by that particular

10 socio-political organisation in case of a natural disaster or some other

11 hardships. So the weapons and the equipment that belonged to the

12 Territorial Defence were not purchased by the army but by the local

13 population.

14 Q. According to the then-prevailing laws, who was in charge of all

15 the weapons that belonged to the Territorial Defence?

16 A. It was the civilian authorities. That was the whole underlying

17 cause of this. The civilian authorities had to be taken away, their

18 power, and the weapons had to be taken away from them and put under

19 somebody else's control.

20 Q. Under whose control?

21 A. They had to be moved to the barracks of the former JNA.

22 Q. We'll come to that. Mr. Redzic, did the Municipal Assembly of

23 Vlasenica accept this decision?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was your personal opinion on that decision?

Page 9199

1 A. Already at that time on 1989, I was against that. Not because I

2 had some plans or because I had a premonition. The only reason was the

3 fact that the -- all this had been purchased by the people and I was

4 opposed to somebody taking it away from them. I wanted the materiel and

5 the equipment and the weapons to be used by the people to safeguard the

6 peace and their vital facilities and everything that was envisaged by the

7 law. That's why I was opposed to that. I was the only one at that

8 session, although it has been proven after so many years that I was right

9 at that time.

10 Q. Did you take the floor? Did you say this?

11 A. Yes, I did take the floor and I said precisely what I'm saying to

12 you today.

13 Q. Mr. Redzic, did you have any reason to fear anything at the time?

14 Why did you speak like that?

15 A. Of course. The first stage was placing the weapons in the

16 barracks, and I knew that already at that time 90 per cent of the

17 commanders in the army were Serbs, that there was a very small number of

18 Muslims and Catholics, and the few Muslims and Catholics that were there

19 were under the influence of the majority Serbian personnel in the JNA.

20 Q. Did this mean actually that the weapons were being totally taken

21 away from some peoples in favour of other people?

22 A. Yes, this was clear. It was clear that everybody had to be

23 disarmed and that these weapons would subsequently be distributed amongst

24 another people.

25 Q. What people was that?

Page 9200

1 A. It was the Serbian people.

2 Q. In the territories of Vlasenica, Bratunac, Zvornik, and

3 Srebrenica, was this decision implemented to the full? Are you aware of

4 that?

5 A. Yes, it was implemented to the full, not only in this region but

6 in the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. Specifically in this region were there any incidents when this

8 weaponry was being taken away from the Territorial Defence and given to

9 the JNA?

10 A. No, there were no incidents.

11 Q. Mr. Redzic, according to your information, what happened to those

12 weapons?

13 A. During the first stage, the weapons were placed in the barracks.

14 And then when the conflicts in Slovenia and Croatia broke out, these

15 weapons were already moved to the Serbian territory.

16 Q. When you say "moved to the Serbian territory," what do you mean by

17 that exactly?

18 A. Those same weapons that had been taken away from the Territorial

19 Defence had already been distributed amongst the Serbian population in the

20 municipalities in the subregion.

21 Q. Did you ever personally see this distribution of weapons?

22 A. Yes. On one occasion, as I was travelling from Tuzla to Sekovic,

23 I saw a military truck in the centre of the town and I saw the weapons

24 being distributed selectively. I even saw that there were so many young

25 people. I suppose they were students, and they distributed automatic

Page 9201

1 weapons, machine-guns, and similar weapons.

2 Q. At one moment when you were testifying, you said "selectively,"

3 and then you explained that weapons was distributed amongst everybody.

4 Was there a slip of the tongue?

5 A. I meant non-selectively, randomly. Everybody was issued with

6 weapons, the elderly, the young, everybody.

7 Q. Will you explain to the Trial Chamber whether Sekovici was a

8 predominantly Serbian municipality?

9 A. When I was talking about the national make-up, I already mentioned

10 that Sekovici was almost 100 per cent Serb municipality, and the inner

11 town of Sekovici is 100 per cent Serbian.

12 Q. You said that they were distributing arms. In your CV we read

13 that you are very well versed in weapons. Am I right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you notice at that time what types of weapons were distributed

16 amongst those people?

17 A. Automatic rifles and semi-automatic rifles and machine-guns.

18 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Redzic. Now I'm going to move on to

19 another topic. Is it true that the multi-party elections were held after

20 these events that concerned the taking away of weapons from the

21 Territorial Defence?

22 A. It was on the 18th of November, 1991, that the multi-party

23 elections were taking place. So the things that I have just spoken about

24 had already been completed, all the weapons had already been transferred

25 from the Territorial Defence.

Page 9202

1 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber very briefly what

2 the results of the municipal -- of the multi-party elections were in the

3 municipalities of Podrinje?

4 A. As far as the five municipalities are concerned, the SDA won in

5 Zvornik, Bratunac, and Srebrenica, and the SDS in Sekovici and Vlasenica.

6 Q. You have also told us that in Vlasenica there was a predominant

7 number of Muslims; however, the Serbian Democratic Party won the

8 elections. What is your opinion of that? How come the SDS won the

9 elections in that municipality? Again, can you please leave some time for

10 the translation.

11 A. The post-election analysis showed that the SDS won in Vlasenica

12 because the vast number of Muslims voted for opposition parties, and the

13 opposition parties proposed deputies from the Serb population. That --

14 Bosniaks gave their votes to the Serbian MPs.

15 Q. Could you tell us what your role was in those elections?

16 A. I was the main candidate of the SDA.

17 Q. For which municipality?

18 A. For the municipality of Vlasenica. When the elections were over,

19 I was appointed the president of the Executive Board of the Municipal

20 Assembly of Vlasenica.

21 Q. After these multi-party elections, were leaderships set up in --

22 at all levels and did they also comprise members of the SDA according to

23 the results of the elections?

24 A. Yes, the authorities were set up across Bosnia-Herzegovina

25 according to the results of the elections. That is the practice

Page 9203

1 everywhere in the world.

2 Q. Did the members of these authorities from the ranks of the SDA

3 hold their own meetings after that?

4 A. Of course the SDA was coordinated at the municipal, regional, and

5 state levels, and yes there were regular meetings; this was a novelty in

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. What was the goal of these meetings?

8 A. The goal of these meetings of the party and state institutions was

9 to learn the complete information from the area inhabited by the Muslim

10 and Serbian population. It was mostly those two ethnic groups that

11 resided in those areas.

12 Q. I am now going to focus on the local level at which these meetings

13 were held. Is it true that at these meetings you received different

14 information from the entire territory of the municipality, for example,

15 the municipality of Vlasenica?

16 A. Yes, that is correct. All the Muslim villages were covered by

17 members of the SDA and their role and task as individuals was to inform us

18 of the problems from their respective areas. And then we would be

19 informed about these problems and we really were abreast of the situation.

20 Q. At these meetings, did you also receive information as to what was

21 going on in the Serbian villages during that period of time, if anything

22 was happening at all?

23 A. Well, yes. Those members that were active in the territory, they

24 also monitored the situation in the neighbouring villages and they had to

25 inform us without taking any prior measures. Their role was to come to

Page 9204

1 the municipality and to inform us in detail as to what was going on in the

2 Serbian villages, what certain Serbs were doing, and so on and so forth.

3 So we had a very good insight into the situation.

4 Q. Did these local meetings in the period from 1990 until the

5 beginning of the war, did they happen frequently?

6 A. Yes. They would take place every 10 or 15 days or even more often

7 than that, if the situation so required. Sometimes we would meet very

8 often.

9 Q. Did I understand you well? Did you say that you also had such

10 meetings at the level of what you call the subregion, at the regional

11 level that is?

12 A. Yes, I have said that and that is the case. We met at the

13 regional level but there are also meetings at the state level. Those

14 meetings were held and it was only logical.

15 Q. Just for a moment, let's dwell upon these meetings at the regional

16 level. Who were the attendants of those regional meetings of the SDA and

17 the representatives of the municipalities from the Muslim ethnic group?

18 A. It was mostly representatives of the SDA and people from the

19 authorities who had been proposed by the SDA. In other words, presidents

20 of the SDA of all municipalities as well as the high officials of all the

21 aforementioned municipalities.

22 Q. Were there also representatives of Srebrenica and Bratunac present

23 at those meetings?

24 A. Yes, Srebrenica, Bratunac, Zvornik, Sekovici, Vlasenica, and

25 sometimes even the neighbouring municipalities such as Kalesija, Kladanj,

Page 9205

1 Han Pijesak, and Rogatica. It all depended on the situation that

2 prevailed and on many occasions we would also call representatives from

3 the neighbouring municipalities.

4 Q. Did you attend those meetings as well?

5 A. Absolutely, absolutely, always.

6 Q. Those regional meetings, how often were they held?

7 A. It depended on the situation. They took place every 10 to 15

8 days, but if the situation so demanded, then we would meet even more

9 often, of course.

10 Q. Mr. Redzic, could you please tell the Trial Chamber what you

11 discussed at those meetings, at the regional meetings, that is?

12 A. The regional meetings were almost identical to the other meetings;

13 however, we discussed other issues. For example, we presented problems

14 from the municipalities we represented, what was going on, what certain

15 individuals were doing in those municipalities, what certain ethnic groups

16 were doing in those municipalities. In Vlasenica I had complete

17 information as to what was going on as if I myself resided in Sekovici,

18 Srebrenica, and Zvornik, and people from those municipalities were abreast

19 of all the developments in the entire area.

20 Q. Since we are talking about the period from 1991 and 1992, did you

21 have any reason to be meeting often because of the situation at the time?

22 A. Of course. There were already wars with Slovenia and Croatia.

23 The situation in Bosnia was boiling. The situation on the ground was

24 alarming, and the nature of the events in the territory demanded that we

25 met not only every 10 or 15 days; we were in a constant meeting, so to

Page 9206












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9207

1 speak. And we didn't -- we had to discuss those topical issues rather

2 than to discuss the economy or similar matters. We were forced by the

3 situation in all the municipalities and in the subregion. I'm talking

4 about the subregion, but the whole of the republic was in a very bad

5 situation.

6 Q. Did you also attend some meetings at the republican level, the

7 meetings of the SDA?

8 A. Yes. I just said that these meetings were held at the level of

9 the republic and those also took place every fortnight or so.

10 Q. Who was it who attended those meetings at the republican level?

11 A. Again, there were representatives of the municipal party boards,

12 municipality officials, and many republican officials from the SDA and

13 from some other opposition parties. They would participate in those

14 meetings very often; they would discuss the issues and the ways how to

15 overcome all those problems.

16 Q. What specifically did you discuss at those meetings? Was there

17 any two-way communication going on at those meetings?

18 A. Yes. We received information from the municipalities all over

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. The representatives of those municipalities came

20 and talked about the problems there, and in return the republican

21 leadership informed us about their views and the information that they

22 had.

23 Q. What information did you receive from them? What information did

24 they have?

25 A. As far as the state level is concerned, they received information

Page 9208

1 from various state institutions, the state security, from the Muslims and

2 Croat Catholics that worked there at the time. And they were at the very

3 source of the information on the key issues, much more than we were at the

4 local level on the periphery. If you want to know what they informed us

5 about, they were at the source of the information and they told us that

6 the SDS had created a parastate with the corresponding institutions that

7 they had their Assembly, that they had their Serbian municipalities, their

8 Serbian autonomous regions.

9 Q. Mr. Redzic, at these meetings did you also discuss military

10 movements, the military situation on the ground?

11 A. Well, yes. There were such discussions, but you could also see

12 all that on television. They did not hesitate to show their movements on

13 television. The top leadership of the republic was duty-bound to inform

14 us of these matters under the constitution.

15 Q. And you at the local level, what kind of information did you

16 provide to the republican organs of the SDA?

17 A. As for myself and the Vlasenica municipality, I constantly told

18 them that the situation was chaotic, especially further afield in the

19 Vlasenica town. Things were reaching boiling point, and the boundaries of

20 tolerance and understanding were being overstepped.

21 Q. Did you speak of the specific situation on the ground? Could the

22 population move about normally?

23 A. I told them what the situation was like. In Vlasenica, one didn't

24 know what to do anymore. There were already blockades, Serbs were firing

25 from houses using automatic weapons. The worst kinds of methods of

Page 9209

1 intimidation were used. They called the people "Turks," said they would

2 kill them all. I'm not saying that all the Serbs did that, but those who

3 were responsible did not take any measures. When we, the leadership,

4 discussed that, the SDS leaders did not take any steps. In Vlasenica,

5 long before the war broke out, roads were blocked and people were unable

6 to take timber from the woods.

7 Q. We'll come to that. Let me ask you something else now. I will

8 avoid questions dealing with political preparations for the war because

9 the Chamber has heard a lot of evidence about that so far. I will only

10 ask you whether or not it is true that the Serbian Democratic Party in the

11 course of 1991 until the outbreak of the war completed the organising of

12 parallel government bodies?

13 A. Yes. There was already an Assembly of the Serbian People, there

14 were Serb municipalities, and Serb autonomous regions.

15 Q. Very well. In view of the fact that you mentioned the Serbian

16 autonomous regions, I won't ask you a lot about the way they were

17 established but I will ask you one question: Which of these Serb

18 autonomous regions that you said were formed in the course of 1991 was

19 highly significant for the developments in Podrinje as of 1991, if so?

20 A. They all had serious repercussions, but as for this area, of

21 course the most serious repercussions and the most painful development was

22 the establishment of the Birac Autonomous Region, which as far as I can

23 recall was established in Sekovici on the 9th of January, 1992.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if possible could we

Page 9210

1 take a break now because of certain technical problems. I wish to show a

2 short video which is very important to us; however, we were unable to sort

3 this out with the technical staff because the picture and the sound do not

4 match. So we wish to take a short break now in order to sort out this

5 problem if possible.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Certainly, Madam Vidovic. Are you

7 referring to D696?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I have my copy here in case it may help,

10 because sometimes it's the copying that is faulty. So I'm leaving it here

11 just in case you need it. I haven't tried it, so I, myself, don't know if

12 it's -- if the sound and the video is coordinated. But anyway, you have

13 it here. How much time do you require? 30 minutes? We take 25 minutes

14 straight away?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think 30 minutes, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll take 30 minutes.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.06 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.40 a.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you solved the technical problem?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Wait.

22 Now, usher, I would like you to go next to the accused to make

23 sure that his monitor is set on the right mode and that he will be able to

24 follow.

25 All right. Yes, Madam Vidovic.

Page 9211

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would you please now play the video

2 that's Defence exhibit 696, and it relates to the establishment of the

3 autonomous region, the Serbian Autonomous Region of Birac. The source is

4 the television of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sarajevo, journalist Salih

5 Brkic. Could you please play the video. It's about two minutes long.

6 [Videotape played]

7 "Where is B and H going and on whose way is it?

8 "With the appointment of Milorad Vukanovic from Sekovici as the

9 Assembly Chairman, and Milenko Stanic from Vlasenica as the prime minister

10 designate of the regional government and then by sending a proclamation to

11 the Serb people of Birac, an inaugural session of the Assembly of the

12 Autonomous Region of Birac was finished today. As they said when making

13 the decision, respecting the right of free choice of every nation, this

14 region is also an expression of desire of the Serb people to live

15 together, in a single state. This is why Birac is proclaimed as an

16 inseparable part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and as a

17 constituent [as interpreted] part of a Federal Unit, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 The territory of the Autonomous Region of Birac consisted of Sekovici and

19 Vlasenica municipalities, this decision reads further, and parts of

20 Bratunac, Srebrenica, Zvornik, Kalesija, Kladanj, and Zivinice

21 municipalities. According to the inaugural decision, the region is also

22 open to villages [as interpreted] in the surrounding areas that

23 subsequently decide to join them. As they emphasised upon adoption of

24 this decision, the future Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which

25 would unify the already established areas and regions, shall be the best

Page 9212

1 guarantee for the Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina and enable them to

2 join the ... state later. At the same time, a question could be heard

3 during the discussion whether they had considered [as interpreted]

4 economic motives as well, apart from political ones, and concerns were

5 expressed as to whether they had prepared the best possible measures for

6 economic division of the joint 'cake' in the area of Birac. The message,

7 which was conveyed from this gathering to the Serb people of Birac, among

8 other things read: 'Nobody in Sarajevo, Zagreb, and especially Berlin can

9 decide our destiny because never, under no conditions, a single law of

10 the 'Independent Bosnia and Herzegovina,' can reach any Serb house or

11 yard. The request to the European Community to recognise the independent

12 country is a big and significant mistake and there is no return because

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina will share the fate of Yugoslavia,' the message

14 that was conveyed from today's founding Assembly of the Autonomous Region

15 of Birac reads."

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Redzic, just a while ago you said that you were familiar with

18 this event, that is the establishment of the Birac Serbian Autonomous

19 Region and you told us when it had been established. Could you please

20 explain to the Chamber how the people of Podrinje reacted and can you

21 comment on this exhibit?

22 A. Well, you can see it all here in this brief report. I don't know

23 whether there's anything we need to add or take away. It was an

24 undercover secession. The Muslim people in this area were truly

25 desperate. They put forward their positions. We heard that only Belgrade

Page 9213

1 and not Zagreb, Sarajevo, or Berlin would discuss their fate. And as far

2 as the Muslim people are concerned, that was practically when war was

3 declared.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Redzic. Did you recognise the people in this

5 report?

6 A. I know a good part of the people. For example, Goran Zekic the

7 president of Srebrenica SDS, and also the republican deputy of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina, there is also Milenko Stanic, a gentleman who was the

9 president of the Vlasenica Municipal Assembly. At this gathering he was

10 elected the prime minister designate. Then there is Jovan Nikolic from

11 Kravica. He was also a highly positioned member of the SDS. There is

12 Milorad Lukic, the president of the Vlasenica SDS. Bozo Milic, who after

13 I was expelled took over the position of the president of the Executive

14 Board of the Vlasenica municipality.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Redzic. Could you please now play the tape further

16 and stop at 015.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Where is Bosnia and Herzegovina

19 going, and in whose way is it? With the appointment of Milorad Okanovic

20 from Sekovici as the assembly chairman and Milenko Stanic from Vlasenica

21 as the prime minister designate of the regional government --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is repeating, no?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a very small segment in order

24 to identify three persons, Your Honour --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

Page 9214

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- that we will proceed to talk

2 about.

3 Q. Mr. Redzic, can you tell the Chamber who this person is?

4 A. This is Mr. Milenko Stanic, who as I said was the president of

5 Vlasenica municipality and he was elected at this gathering, the prime

6 minister designate of the Serbian Autonomous Region.

7 Q. So Milenko Stanic was therefore your president and he was a Serb?

8 A. Yes, he was the president of the Vlasenica Municipal Assembly. He

9 was a Serb by ethnicity. He was a Serb but he was representing all three

10 peoples.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can you continue playing

12 and stop at 024.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Today in Sekovici the constituent

15 session Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Birac was finished today. As

16 they said when making the decision" --

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Redzic, do you know any of the persons here?

19 A. Yes, Jovan Nikolic to the far right.

20 Q. Could you please tell the Chamber who Jovan Nikolic is?

21 A. This was a highly ranking member of the SDS and he hails from

22 Kravica.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please proceed with the tape and

24 stop at 109, and that will be the last segment.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 9215

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "In adopting this decision it was

2 pointed out that the future" --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Redzic, who is this person? Do you recognise this man?

5 A. This is Goran Zekic. I've already said that he was the president

6 of the SDS for Srebrenica municipality and also a deputy in the parliament

7 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Redzic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And a note for the interpreters in

10 connection with this video and the following video to be played, we have

11 given the OTP and the Chamber transcripts, and they need not interpret

12 again unless the Chamber wants them to.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Let's proceed.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, I will continue with my questions. Did you have any

16 information about the reactions to these events in the Podrinje area? Did

17 the Muslim people there experience this as secession?

18 A. In view of the fact that this video was broadcast by Sarajevo

19 television, the entire population, especially in the Vlasenica

20 municipality, was in a state of chaos. Many people from far afield came

21 to the municipality to complain. They asked what this was all about,

22 whether there was a war on. I attempted to calm people down, to dissuade

23 them from fleeing. People from the borderline areas of the municipalities

24 started coming to the town and to Vlasenica municipality.

25 Q. Thank you. Could you please slow down a little for the

Page 9216

1 interpreters. Mr. Redzic, I will now move on to another topic. I won't

2 ask you, as I've already said, about the breakup of Yugoslavia, but I will

3 ask you this: Did you personally observe the arrival of any kind of

4 military forces from outside Bosnia and Herzegovina into Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina?

6 A. It was evident to all of us in Bosnia and Herzegovina that this

7 was happening, and the television showed this, especially after the

8 conflicts broke out first in Slovenia and then in Croatia.

9 Q. Can you tell Their Honours when this happened?

10 A. This was in the second half of 1991. In the second half of 1991

11 there was a large-scale transfer of weapons, equipment, and materiel as

12 well as troops from the neighbouring republics.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

15 Defence Exhibit D532.

16 Q. Mr. Redzic, this is a document from the federal secretariat for

17 national defence signed by General Veljko Kadijevic from January 1991, and

18 the title is "transfer of forces and equipment from the territory of the

19 Republic of Slovenia order."

20 Please look at paragraph 1. I will quote part of it which

21 says: "Transfer the commands, units, and assets of the JNA from the

22 territory of Slovenia to the territory of the republic," and if you go on

23 it says: "Re-location to Prijedor, Derventa, and Zenica."

24 Are you personally aware of any such re-location of commands,

25 units, installations, and all movable assets to the territory of Bosnia

Page 9217

1 and Herzegovina? You said a while ago that you had seen this on

2 television. Were there any cases when some of these units arrived in the

3 Podrinje area? First of all, can you confirm that something like this

4 happened, something like what is described in this document?

5 A. Yes. As I mentioned, the television showed these troop movements

6 and any citizen could see what was happening.

7 Q. Did some of the JNA units arrive in the Podrinje area, and when?

8 A. It's correct that in the second half of 1991, large forces arrived

9 in the area of Zvornik municipality in the Karakaj location. There was a

10 concentration there because during the re-location all kinds of infantry

11 and weapons arrived and were located in Karakaj in the second half of

12 1991. As for Zvornik municipality -- and as for Vlasenica municipality,

13 in late July a motorised brigade was re-located from Jastrebarsko near

14 Zagreb to the territory of Vlasenica and Sekovici municipality.

15 Q. Just a moment, sir, we'll come to that. But let us go back to the

16 units from Zvornik. From whom did you receive this information? How do

17 you know about this?

18 A. We received this information, as I previously stated, because we

19 had constant meetings, the presidents of municipalities, Executive Boards,

20 and the political parties in all the five municipalities. And at these

21 meetings, the purpose was for everybody to report on any changes in the

22 situation in the area. And the president of the Assembly of Zvornik

23 municipality, Mr. Abdulah Pasic, informed us of the arrival of these units

24 in his municipality, that is in the Karakaj location.

25 Q. You mentioned a brigade from Jastrebarsko. Was this an armoured

Page 9218

1 or a mechanised brigade? Did you know anything about this?

2 A. I think it was a combined armoured and mechanised brigade which

3 arrived in the area of Vlasenica from Jastrebarsko, near Zagreb. It was

4 re-located to the area of two municipalities.

5 Q. Do you know where Jastrebarsko is?

6 A. Jastrebarsko is close to Zagreb in the Republic of Croatia.

7 Q. Very well.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

9 witness Defence Exhibit 398.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the meantime can anyone tell us the date of

11 that TV broadcast that we saw on D696, please? It's easy to identify

12 because we're talking about the creation of SAO Birac.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. The way I

14 understood the witness, he mentioned the 9th January, 1992.

15 Q. Am I right?

16 A. Are you referring to the videotape?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. 9 January, 1992.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Redzic, kindly look at this exhibit, the one that you have

22 already seen, and can you pay attention to the first paragraph. This

23 document was issued by the police station of Zvornik. The date is 13

24 October 1991. I'm going to read the first paragraph to you. It

25 says: "We inform you that today, 13 October 1991, at about 8.00 in the

Page 9219

1 morning, a column of military and civilian vehicles was reported

2 transporting reservists on the Tuzla-Zvornik-Loznica road. And while

3 passing through the settlements of Grbavica and Karakaj, and especially as

4 it crossed the bridge in Karakaj, it opened fire (single shots and bursts

5 of automatic gun fire from infantry weapons). The firing continued for a

6 long time throughout the movement of the column in the direction of

7 Loznica. Some vehicles were seen to be moving in the Karakaj-Cepak

8 direction, i.e., from the left bank of the Drina with reservists opening

9 fire on the way. This caused a lot of concern among the inhabitants of

10 the settlements of Grbavci, Zvornik, Karakaj, Celopek, Kozluk, Tasic,

11 Locavic [phoen] et cetera. As a result, the inhabitants themselves came

12 to the SJB in order to report the matter, even telephoning to state that

13 the shooting had frightened many people. Measures of full-scale

14 surveillance of the area by police patrols were taken immediately in order

15 to cooperate with the inhabitants and provide the necessary assistance."

16 Mr. Redzic, you told us that you were aware of the fact that in

17 Karakaj there were military forces. Are you also aware of the fact that

18 these events caused reactions amongst the Muslim population? What kind of

19 reactions were those? Could you describe them for us. What was the

20 feeling that this inspired amongst the Muslim population, if you know?

21 A. Well, this is a piece of information from one municipality, but

22 similar cases or even worse cases happened elsewhere. However, the fear

23 and anxiety amongst the population of these municipalities that I'm

24 talking about, these existed even before this date here. In other words,

25 the people were frightened. They were anguished. The columns of vehicles

Page 9220

1 passing through the area carried the troops with the insignia that did not

2 correspond to the insignia of the JNA. They sported beards, they lifted

3 three fingers in the air, and they fired through the Muslim villages. And

4 what else could it be but intimidation or, in other words, announcing to

5 the non-Serbian people that they are to -- that they were to fear the

6 worst.

7 Q. Is Karakaj a Serbian village? In other words, the area where

8 these troops were billeted in Zvornik, is this predominantly Serb?

9 A. Yes, by and large. The army always avoided such locations where

10 at least one part of the population was mixed.

11 Q. Could you now look at another map for us.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to show

13 the witness another map. We have copied the map to enable the Chamber and

14 the learned friends from the Prosecution to follow what is being said.

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, look at the map. I will take you back to the 2nd

16 Brigade which moved from Jastrebarsko to the Podrinje area, where you

17 resided. Could you please explain to us, if you can, where the 2nd

18 Brigade was billeted. Let me just explain before you answer the question.

19 The map that we have distributed is a map of the military geographic

20 institute. It is a topographic map of the Kladanj-Zvornik region. The

21 scale is 1:100.000. It shows the Vlasenica/Srebrenica area. You can see

22 the town of Srebrenica itself.

23 Can you please show to the Trial Chamber where Vlasenica is and

24 can you please encircle Vlasenica.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 9221

1 Q. Have you found Vlasenica?

2 A. Yes, I've encircled it.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 Could you please tell us now, do you have any information about

5 where this brigade from Jastrebarsko was billeted?

6 A. As I've already told you some troops were in Lukic Polje, in

7 Vlasenica municipality, and the other troops in Tisca in the Sekovici

8 municipality.

9 Q. Can you show that on the map where is Tisca. Could you look at

10 the crossroads?

11 A. Very well. Yes, thank you, I've found it.

12 Q. Yes, they show very well. And can you also show Lukic Polje?

13 A. Yes, I have encircled Lukic Polje as well.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please tell us whether these were

15 Serbian or Muslim villages?

16 A. This was a 100 per cent Serb-populated area.

17 Q. Mr. Redzic, did you perceive the presence of these units yourself,

18 did you see them yourself on the ground?

19 A. As I was moving in different directions towards Tuzla, Bratunac,

20 and Srebrenica, and as I was inspecting the areas of Vlasenica and other

21 areas, I convinced myself that there were very strong forces with tanks,

22 Howitzers, Pragas, and other artillery tools deployed there.

23 Q. Did you personally see the movements of these units?

24 A. Yes. They would move during the day. They would march, and this

25 was done to intimidate people from Vlasenica towards Mijoci [phoen].

Page 9222

1 Another group would go from Bratunac to the Drina River. And the third

2 marching group was from Tisca, Vlasenica to Han Pijesak. They would

3 descend to military and then they would go towards Srebrenica and then on

4 the old road towards the bauxite mine.

5 Q. When you saw these tanks and transporters moving, when was that?

6 A. It was in the second half of 1991. During that period of time, as

7 soon as they arrived, maybe 15 minutes later after having been deployed in

8 their positions, they constantly moved around and I also received

9 information from the ground about those movements, about everything that

10 the column did, that they were shooting through the Muslim-settled areas,

11 that there were soldiers with the special insignia, that they lifted three

12 fingers in the air, and they did everything that irritated the people and

13 that served to provoke Muslims into a bloodshed.

14 Q. In the same map, could you please show the Trial Chamber where Han

15 Pijesak is.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. I can see that you have done that, that you've encircled Han

18 Pijesak?

19 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber how far is Han Pijesak from

20 Vlasenica?

21 A. The distance between Han Pijesak and Vlasenica is 18 kilometres.

22 Q. How far is it from Srebrenica by road and how far it is as the

23 crow flies?

24 A. 50 kilometres by road and as the crow flies between 15 and 20

25 kilometres, whereas Vlasenica is only about 5 kilometres away as the crow

Page 9223

1 flies.

2 Q. Mr. Redzic, could you tell the Trial Chamber what is the

3 significance of Han Pijesak as a military stronghold. What was its

4 significance before the war, that is, if you know?

5 A. Before the war, Han Pijesak had barracks with some 1500 troops and

6 all the accompanying equipment that is necessary for a military. In the

7 vicinity of Han Pijesak, there was a depot, a military depot called Zepa.

8 That's where the most modern equipment was and everything that was

9 necessary. This depot in the former Yugoslavia was planned as an atomic

10 shelter for the supreme command of the former Yugoslavia.

11 Q. How did you learn about that? How did you get by this

12 information? How come you know that? How come you know this about Han

13 Pijesak?

14 A. I heard that information earlier. I went to Han Pijesak very

15 often with the commander of the barracks in Han Pijesak, Mr. Milosevic. I

16 spoke to him about many things.

17 Q. What did you talk about?

18 A. We spoke about all sorts of things. We started talking in 1990 at

19 the moment when there is the conflict in Croatia and Slovenia, when the

20 situation became tense in Bosnia, when the worst was feared. My position

21 was, bearing in mind that they were in our vicinity, I considered that the

22 Yugoslav People's Army, as the army of all the peoples, I would go there

23 very often to talk to Mr. Milosevic, who would later on become the

24 commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. I wanted to carry out

25 mobilisation of the Territorial Defence in Vlasenica municipality in order

Page 9224

1 to protect the vital interests of these areas and thus ensure the safety

2 of all the citizens.

3 Q. Did he accept your proposals?

4 A. On several occasions, I made proposals to him, but he openly said

5 to me that he would not give one single rifle to a Muslim.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this map into

8 evidence as a Defence exhibit.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And this will become Defence Exhibit D706. I think

10 it's the case, as is being pointed to us, that the witness initials the

11 map before we accept it into evidence.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, could you please put your initials on the map.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, you have described for us the arrival of this brigade

16 and the situation that ensued after the arrival of that brigade and how

17 the Muslim population felt on that account in the second half of 1991.

18 The Muslim population of the area, could they move freely throughout the

19 entire municipality?

20 A. No. In 1991 in Vlasenica municipality, there were all sorts of

21 incidents and inappropriate behaviour on the part of some Serbs and their

22 reservists. There was a lot of provocation and taunting of students in

23 the buses. The workers who came from the neighbouring villages to

24 Vlasenica to work, they were also taunted and provoked. As I've already

25 said, the army provoked people. They displayed irritating behaviour and

Page 9225

1 there were even bans on carrying out certain work. For example, there was

2 a ban on felling.

3 Q. Mr. Redzic, just for a moment could we dwell upon what you have

4 just mentioned. You have mentioned the ban issued to the workers of the

5 forestry company of Birac to do the felling in the woods. Can you explain

6 the information that you had. Why did this happen? Did you ever learn

7 the reasons behind the ban on the exploitation of timber in the area?

8 A. It was my duty as the president of the municipality to look after

9 the security and safety situation in my municipality. The director of the

10 forestry company called us, his name was Ibran Nuhanovic. He asked us to

11 try and solve the problem. I asked him to call the town hall meeting. He

12 did that. He invited me and M. Stanic to attend that meeting. At the

13 meeting you could hear that the workers were banned from working in the

14 forest because the Serbs had already deployed their artillery there, their

15 Howitzers, mortars, and the accompanying material and technical equipment.

16 Q. You mentioned the exploitation of the assets. What did you have

17 in mind?

18 A. I had in mind timber and felling.

19 Q. Mr. Redzic, is it true that Mr. Stanic, the Serbian president of

20 the municipality from the ranks of the Serbian people attended that

21 meeting?

22 A. Yes. There was -- there were a number of Serbs who were opposed

23 to such bans because their families relied on that work. And if they

24 didn't work, it was only logical that they would not be paid and that they

25 would not be able to provide for their families.

Page 9226

1 Q. Did you send a report on this event? And if you did, who did you

2 send it to?

3 A. I sent my reports to the republican bodies. I informed the

4 Presidency, the government, and the competent ministries. In this

5 particular case, I reported to the minister for forestry.

6 Q. You have also mentioned meetings of municipal officials at the

7 local level. Did you have similar information based on their information,

8 if they provided it to you, from the municipalities of Srebrenica and

9 Bratunac about similar events, the events of that sort?

10 A. Absolutely. The same thing that I had in my municipality and the

11 problems that I faced there, the gentlemen that attended those meetings

12 informed us about the problems in the municipalities of Bratunac,

13 Srebrenica, Zvornik, and even Sekovici to a certain extent.

14 Q. Thank you very much. When it comes to the municipality of

15 Srebrenica, who was it who submitted the reports of these meetings?

16 A. It was Mr. Ibran Mustafic and the president of the Municipal

17 Assembly -- what was his name? It was in any case the president of the

18 Municipal Assembly, and Mr. Ibran Mustafic, he was the president of the

19 Executive Board and I spoke to him more often.

20 Q. When it comes to Bratunac, you remember who was the rapporteur

21 from Bratunac?

22 A. It was mostly the president of the municipality, Mr. Nijaz

23 Dubicic. He was the one who spoke about the problems and situation in the

24 territory of Bratunac.

25 Q. What kind of information did they provide you with about the

Page 9227

1 events in their territories in the second half of 1991 until the beginning

2 of the war?

3 A. It was an unwritten rule. The situation was the same, the

4 problems were the same. They provided us with information from the area

5 inhabited by the Serbs. They said they had huge problems, that people are

6 being armed, that they gathered into groups, that they were being provided

7 with weapons, not even illegally anymore, but openly and publicly.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can the witness be shown

10 Defence exhibit D690, page 176, please -- actually, the last -- could you

11 please show the witness page 175 and 176.

12 Your Honour, in the English version you will find this on page

13 24 -- 24, the part that I'm going to show to the witness. This is on page

14 24 of the English translation of the document --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't speak English, I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to avoid wasting time, I

18 have the document before me. I can assist you with the copy that I have.

19 Could you please show the witness the first sentence -- actually, the last

20 sentence on page 175, and the first paragraph on page 176, the paragraph

21 is in bold script.

22 Q. Could you please look at the last sentence on page 175, and I'm

23 going to read it to you --

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but if we

25 could have a moment. I'm actually trying to locate this English.

Page 9228

1 JUDGE AGIUS: She said page 224 -- no, page 24. No, no, no, it's

2 page 24. In the English text that I have there is only a page 24 --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 24.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, page 24, bottom-right corner is the page that

5 you ...

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I want to make sure that they

8 have the --

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I apologise, it's just that -- I

10 don't doubt that it's here. It's just the way that it was -- it's

11 somewhat in excerpts and --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. You may have a completely different --

13 we're talking of ERN 01102509, that's the page that I have.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we'll locate it.


16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If my learned friend could look at

17 me, maybe you will be able to find it if I show this bolded part of the

18 text. Maybe I can assist you with that. It is the last paragraph on page

19 24 --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We're talking --

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We're talking of Friday, 3rd April, 1992 --

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we have it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Friday, 3rd April, 1992.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And before I move on to the quote

Page 9229

1 and the question, I would just like for the record that this is an excerpt

2 from the book by Mr. Besim Ibisevic, "Srebrenica, 1987-1992."

3 Q. Witness, can you please pay attention to what I'm going to read to

4 you. The last sentence on page 175 reads: "Semso Jusic from the village

5 of Poznanovic. A member of the Municipal Assembly for the village of

6 Bozanovic told me that there had been shooting above their village the

7 night before. The Bosniaks of Bozanovic spent the night in the open

8 guarding their village. He also told me that the Serbs of the village of

9 Fakovici had a store of weapons and ammunition stashed in an abandoned

10 schoolhouse near the village of Ruljevici, in the municipality of

11 Bratunac. The Serbs had received the arms from the JNA; Bosniaks had seen

12 military lorries arriving in that village. I promised Semso I would

13 personally go to Ruljevici and check whether there were any arms there.

14 The Bosniaks had to know the truth."

15 Mr. Redzic, let me ask you this: Do you know who

16 Mr. Besim Ibisevic is?

17 A. Yes, I wanted to say a moment ago that he was the president of the

18 municipality of Srebrenica.

19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether it is true that part of

20 your life you spent working in the area of Srebrenica?

21 A. Yes. I worked for 12 or 13 years in the Vlasenica bauxite mine.

22 One part of this mine is in the territory of Srebrenica. And in view of

23 the fact that many of our mines are scattered all over the area, the work

24 itself was such and of that nature that it provided me with an insight

25 into all the municipalities in the vicinity.

Page 9230












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9231

1 Q. Do you know where Ruljevici is? Is that a village? Is that a

2 hamlet belonging to a village?

3 A. Ruljevici is a hamlet of the village called -- what is its name?

4 Ruljevici is close to a hamlet near --

5 Q. Very well. Mr. Redzic, is this a village somewhere on the border

6 between Bratunac and Srebrenica?

7 A. Yes, between Bratunac and Srebrenica. Yes, it's a hamlet there.

8 Q. Did you hear that at one of the meetings in April 1992,

9 Mr. Ibisevic mentioned the events in Fakovici?

10 A. Yes. You have assisted me, jogged my memory. It is this hamlet

11 of Fakovici. Yes, they were discussing precisely these problems, both

12 Mr. Ibran and Mr. Ibisevic, that weapons, equipment, and materiel were

13 being transported across the Drina and concentrated in this area. In

14 early April, the president of the Assembly, Mr. Ibisevic, told us that he

15 had personally seen this. And as I will say later on in my testimony, I

16 myself was able to see the things that were going on, and this was just a

17 small part of it.

18 Q. Let's take it step by step. Please tell us: At these meetings,

19 did they mention the villages near Drina, Fakovici and Bjelovac?

20 A. Yes, precisely so. They mentioned Fakovici and Bjelovac very

21 often, saying that weapons, equipment, and materiel were being transported

22 there across the Drina. They also mentioned Skelani on the banks of the

23 Drina and they said what they had seen. They probably had no reason to

24 lie about it. They said that there were already armoured vehicles there

25 and heavy weapons, in Skelani that is, and the surrounding villages around

Page 9232

1 Skelani.

2 Q. Thank you very much. At these meetings, was there any mention of

3 Ratkovici?

4 A. Ratkovici sticks in my memory because they always said that

5 helicopters were landing there, bringing in weapons, equipment, and

6 materiel, and they linked this with General Zivanovic. I think that was

7 his name.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may --


10 MS. RICHARDSON: -- just to ensure that we have a very clear

11 record. If the witness is referring to a day, are -- is he referring back

12 to the meetings with Ibisevic --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Ibisevic --

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Just to be clear.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I'm not testifying instead of him,

16 but I -- that's what I understood.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: There's -- I just want to make sure, Your Honour.

18 There are lots of "they" in the record going on, and we just want to make

19 sure that this is clear.


21 Do you have any comments on what has been stated by

22 Ms. Richardson, Mr. Redzic?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will -- Your Honour, I'll deal

24 with it.

25 Q. Witness, I will repeat my question to you. Did you hear about

Page 9233

1 these events at the meetings with representatives of the municipalities

2 where Mr. Ibisevic and Mustafic were also present?

3 A. Yes, that was the context I was referring to. We had those

4 meetings and informed each other of the situation on the ground in these

5 municipalities.

6 Q. I wasn't sure whether your comment was in the transcript. Did you

7 say that weapons were brought into the village of Ratkovici and that they

8 linked it with General Zivanovic. Why did they link it with

9 General Zivanovic?

10 A. Because they said that he originated from the area, he was born

11 there. And there was a reason because they often mentioned Ratkovici,

12 together with General Zivanovic.

13 Q. Please, tell me whether I understood correctly that these meetings

14 were held in late March and early April, 1992, these particular meetings

15 that we are talking about now?

16 A. Yes. In late March and early April, these meetings went on

17 throughout 1991 and 1992.

18 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Redzic. At these meetings in March and

19 April 1992, was information brought forward by people who were

20 representatives of the Bratunac area?

21 A. Yes. It was Mr. Nijaz Dubicic, the president of the Municipal

22 Assembly of Bratunac, who gave us the most information about that. He

23 gave us precise information about the Serbian villages around Bratunac.

24 He said they were armed to the teeth, and he was frightened, as I was.

25 None of us expected these things. What was most important in what he said

Page 9234

1 about the events around Bratunac was that he kept mentioning the village

2 of Kravica.

3 Q. Thank you very much. How often did this happen and what did he

4 say with respect to Kravica, with respect to Kravica in 1991 until the

5 outbreak of the war?

6 A. In that period, according to his information, Kravica was already

7 armed with automatic weapons and other kinds of weapons. And towards the

8 end of 1991, there were open movements of armoured vehicles. You could

9 see barrels in the surrounding hamlets around Kravica. And there was fear

10 on the part of all Muslims. They dared not pass through Kravica even by

11 daylight.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that the video be

13 played D696, and this is from Sarajevo television from September 1991, and

14 it begins at 12.47. It's a very brief clip.

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, please follow closely.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Nationality lost their lives. The

18 situation is tense. According to Tanjug information, about 2500 Serbs,

19 mainly women and children, have already moved to Ljubovija. Top people

20 from the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina visited the

21 spot today and held a press conference today in Sarajevo. In Kajici,

22 Bratunac municipality, on the regional road, unknown persons set an ambush

23 and fired from automatic weapons at four persons who were in a Lada

24 vehicle with license plate number 280062. On this occasion, Nedzad Hodzic

25 and Dzemo Jusic lost their lives and Mevludin Sinanovic and Zaim

Page 9235

1 Salkanovic from the village of Repovci, Bratunac municipality, were

2 wounded. Among the evidence we found bullet shells, fingerprints, and the

3 forensic department is -- or, crime investigation department is already

4 determining the factual situation. A large number of Muslims gathered and

5 asked for weapons and requested that perpetrators be prosecuted in a way

6 which is not in accordance with the legal system of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina. At the same time, the Serb population whose large part had

8 already moved to Ljubovija were disturbed. At this meeting we, Mr. Hebib

9 and I, agreed with other representatives who were present there on what

10 should be done officially as the Ministry of the Interior in order to

11 reveal the perpetrators in a highly professional way with a maximum

12 engagement of the ministry's forces. Secondly, we agreed to provide --

13 assisted their members of active and reserve forces, absolute peace and

14 security, and, at this strike, this rally, Muslim representatives

15 guaranteed, so to say, safety for all Serbs in the area of Bratunac."

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Redzic, I will ask you the following: Are you familiar with

18 this event in September 1991?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct that Kajici is part of Kravica municipality?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Vito Zepinic, who made these comments, what was his ethnicity?

23 A. Mr. Vito Zepinic is a Serb. He was assistant minister of the

24 interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. What you saw here, does it correspond to your information that two

Page 9236

1 Muslims were killed and wounded, and could you please answer this part of

2 the question first. Does this correspond with what you know?

3 A. Yes, fully. This was so close to us and new words spread so

4 quickly.

5 Q. Mr. Redzic, does this correspond with your information, what

6 Mr. Zepinic said, that these people were killed from automatic weapons?

7 Does this correspond to what you heard from Mr. Dubicic with respect to

8 Kravica when he said that people were armed there with automatic weapons?

9 A. Yes, because even if we hadn't believed Mr. Dubicic, Mr. Zepinic

10 himself said what was going on and what there was in Kravica. His

11 statement that a large number had moved out of Bratunac municipality.

12 Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vlasenica, and Zvornik corresponds to his

13 information but these were women and children. In other words, they had

14 already prepared and pulled out people who were not fit for military

15 service. And what remained behind was people who were able-bodied and

16 ready at any moment to act against the Muslim people.

17 Q. Did this event upset the local Muslims?

18 A. Of course it did. It brought matters to a boiling point. The

19 Muslim population didn't know where to go or what to do.

20 Q. Up to now you have told us about information you received from

21 members of the SDA, from the field, or from municipal officials in other

22 areas. Did you also receive information in other ways, through other

23 channels?

24 A. Yes. As I mentioned, from the territory of my municipality, I

25 received information from the Muslims there and also from the Serbs

Page 9237

1 themselves. Serbs arrived in the municipality to complain. Because they

2 came from remote villages, many of them were illiterate, as were many

3 Muslims, and they would ask for the president; the secretariat would send

4 them to me because Mr. Stanisic was probably not there at the time. And I

5 would offer them a seat. I would offer them a cup of coffee. I would

6 welcome them. And they told me openly that in the Serbian villages Serbs

7 were distributing weapons, but that SDS members had priority and they were

8 wondering when it would be their turn. I promised them that they, too,

9 would be armed but then they shouldn't make a fuss about this.

10 Later on I spoke to Mr. Stanic, the municipal president, and I

11 told him I knew precisely what areas were settled and what time. He was

12 surprised, not that they were distributing weapons; he was surprised that

13 I had this information and he wondered how I got it.

14 Q. And what did the Muslims tell you? What happened at night, if

15 anything, with regard to Serb villages?

16 A. Well, this was already a prelude to the war. Muslims came from

17 the area complaining, asking whether anyone could protect them because

18 Serbs were firing from their houses, from automatic weapons. During the

19 day, they set up roadblocks and barricades, and they issued open threats

20 saying, "Turks, we will kill you all."

21 Q. Did you talk about this with Mr. Milenko Stanic, the

22 representative of the SDS, and if you did what did he tell you about it?

23 A. My conversation with Mr. Stanic was always open, at least as far

24 as I was concerned. I wasn't preparing for war, and there were things he

25 was unable to believe. We had some problems. For example, the village of

Page 9238

1 Nedzeliste, because in the morning a group of Muslims --

2 Q. Mr. Redzic, we'll come to that village. What I'm interested in

3 now is what Mr. Stanic's position was, what his attitude was to the

4 complaints of the Muslims? Did he try to do anything about it?

5 A. Absolutely not. He was aware of it. He knew that the Serb areas

6 were being armed. He knew they all had weapons. He was only surprised

7 that I had certain information --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this point I think it would be

10 helpful to everyone if the witness could elaborate a little bit more on

11 what Serb areas we're talking about, what Serb villages we're talking

12 about. There's -- the record is going in rather vague and I think it

13 would be helpful if he could specify.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And it will remain vague, Ms. Richardson. I can

15 tell you I don't know how it fits in the case and how it's going to help

16 the accused. But anyway, let's go ahead.

17 Yes, please, Ms. Vidovic, if the witness can articulate which

18 villages he's referring to one by one. This is what Ms. Richardson is

19 interested in hearing.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will be very happy to

21 put this question, and I certainly will. However, the Defence case is

22 such that it is very important to prove what this witness is talking about

23 because he just said that there was firing from Serb houses, and I will go

24 further --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic, what we are interested in is not

Page 9239

1 whether this was firing in Serb houses two years before the events or a

2 year before the events. Whether they were firing from Serb houses on the

3 day when the various houses are alleged to have been destroyed, that's

4 what we're interested upon.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in any case, the

6 Defence must prove that these people were armed in those villages, which

7 would enable them to fire. So we will certainly come to this --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That is, of course, relevant. Go ahead.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Redzic, let us go back to the question raised by the

11 Prosecutor. Can you be specific with respect to the information you

12 received and tell us what Serb villages it pertained to, what Serb

13 villages were armed, and where was there firing from houses, as far as you

14 knew?

15 A. Nedzeliste, Hadzic, Sikosta [phoen] Rijeka, in this area north of

16 Vlasenica. And from Milici towards Rupovo Brdo, from Derventa. There

17 were Serbs as far as Zutica up there, and the same thing happened in all

18 of these villages in Vlasenica municipality. Now we are talking of

19 Nedzeliste, Sadici, and Sikosta Rijeka.

20 Q. Did you have any information about Podravanje?

21 A. Podravanje is concentrated up there. It is inhabited by Serbs and

22 the tanks from Lukic Polje. Once or twice a day they went up there

23 passing through the Muslim villages Dzile, Nurici, Bracani, Ilici, and so

24 on. And they exerted in almost pressure, caused terror. I can't tell you

25 what those people went through and they were cut off from neighbouring

Page 9240

1 Muslim villages.

2 Q. Thank you. You explained the disposition of the military units

3 which had arrived from Croatia. Can you explain to us whether in the

4 course of 1990 and 1991 you had any knowledge other Serb military units on

5 the territory of your municipality, if there were any?

6 A. In the second half of 1991, there was a light brigade stationed in

7 Milici on the playing field, that is on the stadium and next to it. And

8 that was as early as the second half of 1991, at the beginning of the

9 second half of 1991.

10 Q. Did you know how many people were there who had military

11 equipment?

12 A. About 1.200 men. This was a light brigade and the soldiers from

13 that brigade went to fight in Croatia.

14 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours exactly how you learned of the

15 existence of this brigade in Milici?

16 A. I had information from the people and I also passed through. But

17 it was also on the media because this same brigade held a review in Milici

18 and this was broadcast by Sarajevo Radio-television

19 Q. Do you know when this review took place?

20 A. I think it was in September and it was attended by the top leaders

21 of SDS including officials from Serbia, such as Petar Gracanin. I think

22 he was the minister of the interior at the time.

23 Q. The minister of the interior of the Federal Republic of

24 Yugoslavia?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9241

1 Q. Thank you. You said that you were told by people. What people

2 and what did they tell you about this brigade? And was this a problem, in

3 your view, on the ground?

4 A. This brigade was composed of people from Vlasenica municipality

5 and these people had worked somewhere. As the president of the Executive

6 Board and between -- I know that seven or eight of our employees went off

7 to join that brigade, and this was illegal. And many managing directors

8 from companies in Vlasenica municipality came to tell me that large

9 numbers of able-bodied men of Serb ethnicity had been mobilised and were

10 in Milici and that these people who had been mobilised and who were being

11 paid by the JNA because they were printing money and they had lots of

12 money, so those same men who were in the brigade and had been illegally

13 mobilised were demanding salaries and they had to be paid their salaries,

14 although they were not working. So under threat of arms, they had to give

15 these people what they were not entitled to.

16 Q. Thank you. You mentioned mobilisation. Was it legal mobilisation

17 of Serbs?

18 A. Absolutely not. It was illegal mobilisation and it was carried

19 out by the SDS.

20 Q. How did you learn about this? You mentioned the directors of

21 certain companies. Can you be more specific? Which of the directors told

22 you about this?

23 A. Well, I remember Avdic Saban from the furniture factory who came

24 to see me on the 10th of August and Mr. Ibran Nuhanovic, the director of

25 the Birca forestry company. We talked about this topic and they said that

Page 9242

1 those people were threatening them. I said "Well, you're intelligent men.

2 Isn't it better to solve this rather than to cause a conflict, which is

3 what the SDS and the army want?"

4 Q. Did you have any information about mobilisation also taking place

5 in Srebrenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik?

6 A. Yes. The pattern was the same. The scenario was the same.

7 Everything I spoke about as happening in Vlasenica also happened in those

8 other places. Only the place names differed, but the events were all the

9 same and mobilisation was underway.

10 Q. Did the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the official

11 republican authorities, prohibit mobilisation and the departure of young

12 men from Bosnia and Herzegovina to fight against Croatian Catholics in

13 Croatia?

14 A. Yes, the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina broadcast on

15 television and informed us in dispatches and so on that the population of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina was not to be mobilised and sent to fight against

17 Catholics in Croatia or against anyone else. And this was in line with

18 their duties.

19 Q. Did you, yourself, try to do anything concrete to prevent illegal

20 mobilisation and the sending of Muslim Bosniaks to go there and fight?

21 A. Well, this mobilisation was more legal than the one in Milici,

22 Srebrenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik. This happened in late June 1991 when a

23 light Vlasenica brigade with the 1.200 men was mobilised and the secretary

24 for national defence was a Serb, Blagoje Colovic, and without my knowledge

25 or the knowledge of the republican institutions he managed to mobilise

Page 9243

1 this brigade and to dislocate [as interpreted] it to Han Pijesak, to the

2 barracks there. In early July 1991, this same brigade was taken by truck

3 to Zalozani and prepared to set out for Okucani in the Croatian war

4 theatre. One morning in that period when the mobilisation was underway, I

5 went there and I saw that the municipal building was surrounded by women,

6 mothers, wives, sisters, daughters, and they were asking me to give them

7 back their sons, their brothers, their husbands. I didn't even know where

8 this unit was that had been mobilised. When I learned that they were in

9 Okucani, I secured ten buses and a van and I collected those people. They

10 got in and we went off to Zalozani so that the soldiers who had been

11 tricked could be taken back to their towns, their villages, they

12 factories, and their fields. I spoke directly to the general -- he wasn't

13 a general at the time, he was a colonel, and he was the commander of the

14 Zalozani area, Mr. Milosevic, his assistant was Asim Dzambasovic, and

15 there was another assistant for security.

16 Before the talks I formed a negotiating team with six others

17 besides me, five Muslims and one Serb, and I have to mention that the

18 Serbs did not accept mobilisation either. They didn't want their children

19 to be sent to the war theatre and to kill the Croat-Catholic people or be

20 killed themselves, because one gets killed in war. However, these

21 officers refused to listen to what we said, and so I took it upon myself

22 to tell the men to get on to the buses and to go to Vlasenica. I found

23 buses from Banja Luka for the other people, and on the 4th of July I

24 brought them back safe and sound to Vlasenica.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Redzic. Let me put another question to you. Did

Page 9244

1 you then personally have problems because of this with the military

2 authorities?

3 A. Yes. The military Prosecutor Zivko Ostojic, as far as I can

4 remember, filed a criminal report against me under Article 205, paragraphs

5 1 and 2, of the Criminal Code of the SFRY. I was accused of breaking up

6 Yugoslavia.

7 Q. And were these proceedings ever completed?

8 A. No, because the war broke out.

9 Q. Thank you. I will now put another question to you. Mr. Redzic,

10 did the official authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina have the ability,

11 in your view, to prevent the mobilisation of Serbs in that period from

12 1991 until the outbreak of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13 A. Realistically, no. Because they had already established their

14 paramilitary institutions, they had their army. And the republican

15 institutions, if the men in them were Serbs, they did not respect the

16 decisions that they, themselves, adopted. The republican leadership was

17 unable to take any measures and neither was the international community.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

19 witness document D99.

20 Q. Mr. Redzic, would you please take a look at this document. This

21 is a certificate, certifying that Milenko Jovanovic was mobilised on the

22 25th of March, 1992, to the Bjelovac TO and you see the signature of the

23 company commander, Pero Petrovic. I will ask you to comment on this.

24 Is it possible on the basis of the information you received and

25 spoke about, that mobilisation was carried out in the Serbian villages in

Page 9245

1 the Podrinje area as early as the 25th of March, 1992, and this refers to

2 the Bjelovac TO but I'm asking you in general. Is it possible that

3 mobilisation was carried out on the 25th of March, 1992, as it says in

4 this document?

5 A. Mobilisation was carried out much earlier. This is a very late

6 date. Mobilisation in all the areas, not just our subregion, but

7 throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina was carried out much earlier. In this

8 period where this person had been, maybe he hadn't responded to previous

9 call-ups. But I'm surprised he was not mobilised earlier --

10 Q. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson --

12 MS. RICHARDSON: I was about to object simply to the phrasing of

13 the -- the way question was posed, but I'll withdraw it at this point.


15 Please go ahead.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Q. Mr. Redzic, as you are talking about this mobilisation, did you

18 tour this area and see for yourself that there was mobilised Serb forces

19 on the ground? I'm referring to the time period from late March to early

20 April 1992.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, again, before the witness answers,

22 can we just have some clarity with respect to the area that was toured by

23 the witness?


25 I think that's a proper observation, Madam Vidovic. So could you

Page 9246

1 either rephrase the question or the witness is intelligent enough to

2 follow-up from what has been stated.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will reformulate my question.

4 Q. Mr. Redzic, in the second half of March and the first half of

5 April, did you tour the Vlasenica municipality and did you see for

6 yourself whether or not there were mobilised forces on the ground?

7 A. It is true that I toured Vlasenica municipality, and I can list

8 the villages.

9 Q. Well, step by step. Did you make a tour at all?

10 A. Yes, I did. And I took every opportunity to have the president,

11 Mr. Stanic, accompany me.

12 Q. You already said that Mr. Stanic was a Serb?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please, is it correct that on the 3rd of April, 1992, a meeting

15 was held with the local leaders, including those of Srebrenica and

16 Bratunac?

17 A. I think it was our last meeting. After that, we didn't see each

18 other again because very soon after that the fighting broke out.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may. The question that was

20 last put to the witness by the Defence is clearly leading, and there have

21 been a number of leading questions before. I have not objected, but I

22 would only ask that the Defence refrain from putting leading questions to

23 the witness, especially as we are getting into areas that are very

24 relevant.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

Page 9247

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That is also a correct observation. I think

3 we have been quiet on this and we've cooperated because there were no

4 objections forthcoming from your part. Now that, of course, there are

5 objections, Ms. Vidovic will refrain from putting direct or leading

6 questions. On the other hand, we would have appreciated not hearing from

7 objections from your part if the leading questions are in reality

8 harmless --

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, we're dealing with an area and the time spent

11 is marginally relevant at the end of the day.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour, which is why I didn't object

13 prior. But now we're getting into very relevant matters.


15 Yes, Ms. Vidovic, you've heard what I had to say. I mean, you

16 know the distinction between a direct -- a leading question, which is not

17 allowed when you are examining in chief. So I suggest you try to

18 cooperate a little bit. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Redzic, is it true that you inspected the area with

21 Mr. Stanic during this particular period of time.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Kindly, could you tell the Trial Chamber which villages you

24 inspected together with Mr. Stanic?

25 A. A large group of Muslims from Nedzeliste came and complained that

Page 9248

1 the Serbs in the area, which was a mixed area inhabited by Muslim and

2 Serbs, that the Serbs were shooting automatic weapons from their houses,

3 they already wore S and B [as interpreted] uniforms, that they physically

4 threatened them and so on and so forth. I called Mr. Stanic, told him

5 what was going on in Nedzeliste and asked him to accompany me in the

6 visits to this area.

7 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber where Nedzeliste is?

8 A. The village of Nedzeliste is very close to Cerska and

9 Skubric [phoen].

10 Q. And what did you do next?

11 A. The two of us, the two presidents, took an official car and two

12 policemen. And when we arrived in Nedzeliste not far from the primary

13 school, we saw a unit of soldiers lined up in full military gear. They

14 bore very peculiar insignia dating back from the Second World War, the

15 ones the Chetnik used to wear. As a Muslim I was very surprised. I asked

16 Mr. Stanic whether those were partisans. I wondered about the markings on

17 the hats and I wondered whether those were 5-pointed stars. Stanic

18 laughed and didn't comment.

19 Later on the two of us --

20 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Redzic. The men that you saw, did you know

21 them? Did you know at least some of them?

22 A. I knew most of the people. They were all locals. It company

23 commander I knew personally because his family was Prodanic and he worked

24 in the Alpro factory in Vlasenica. He was a machinist there.

25 Q. What did you and Mr. Stanic do after that, if you did anything at

Page 9249

1 all?

2 A. After that I thought that we should call a number of prominent

3 Serbs and Muslims and that we should call a meeting. I thought that by

4 their reputation they could exert influence on the rest of the Serbs, that

5 they should be drawing attention to the fact that there was no need for

6 fire to be opened, for threats, because they had been neighbours for ages

7 and that these things should not be happening. All those who were present

8 there, the prominent Serbs who were there accepted that, promised that

9 there would be no more problems, so that the Muslim population was calmed

10 down by these words of the Serb representatives and their promises that

11 this would no longer be happening.

12 Q. After that, Mr. Redzic, did you and Mr. Stanic visit any other

13 Serbian villages?

14 A. Our route from then on was from Nedzeliste towards Sadici and then

15 towards Lazarici hamlet.

16 Q. Were those Serbian villages as well?

17 A. Yes, 100 per cent. Lazarici is 100 per cent Serbian hamlet which

18 is connected with some other Serbian hamlets. Those were 100 per cent

19 Serbian areas and hamlets.

20 Q. Could you please tell us whether this is the same locality that

21 you have just mentioned as a locality which bordered on a Muslim area?

22 A. Yes. This is the area which is some 6 kilometres away from

23 Nedzeliste very close to Cerska, Sadici, and this hamlet Lazarici are

24 close to Cerska.

25 Q. Mr. Redzic, can you describe for the Trial Chamber what you saw

Page 9250

1 there?

2 A. When we arrived in Lazarici, we were stopped by two armed soldiers

3 in olive-drab uniforms. They had automatic rifles. They stopped us.

4 Their task was probably to ask for the ID of any passenger moving about.

5 When Mr. Stanic and I got out of the car they probably recognised Stanic,

6 and they did not ask for our IDs. We didn't have any problems with them.

7 We were then encircled by a group of young boys aged between 12 and 15.

8 Each and every one of them carried an automatic rifle on their shoulder or

9 in their hands. I personally asked them, "Boys, where did you get the

10 weapons from and what do you want the weapons for?" They answered that

11 they were given the weapons by the army and that they needed them to

12 defend themselves because the Turks from Cerska threatened to slaughter

13 them.

14 Q. How did the Serbian official, Stanic, react to that, the person

15 who was with you?

16 A. At that moment he did not say anything. He probably knew what was

17 going on there. However, he opted -- the population was surprised by our

18 arrival. There were no telephones, there were no mobile phones, nothing

19 could be prepared for our arrival. Maybe he was even feeling sorry that

20 he took me with him and I that saw, together with him, what was going on

21 there.

22 Q. Thank you very much. During your inspection on that day, did you

23 visit any other villages?

24 A. As we were moving from Sadici to Vlasenica we came by another

25 village. The area was mostly inhabited by the Serbs. We came by a

Page 9251

1 village called Sikosta Rijeka. There is a primary school there and we

2 found an identical situation there. Also there was a company lined up

3 there, and what worried me most of all was the fact that the company was

4 commanded by a person who was a member of the Municipal Assembly of

5 Vlasenica, who at the time was over 65 years of age. From there, we set

6 out to Vlasenica.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I put my next

8 question to the witness I would like to learn from you where the next

9 break is going to be.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The next break should roughly happen now. However,

11 since I have this appointment with the deputy registrar and also with the

12 head of OLAD at 12.30, if we could go on for a few more minutes and then,

13 say, have break within the next ten minutes or so, that would help me to

14 keep appointments that I have because it will be difficult to fix

15 appointments again with these two persons. So I think we would still be

16 able to continue for the next ten minutes or so. And whenever you feel

17 it's convenient for you to stop, just give me the signal, ask me, and

18 we'll go -- we'll stop.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll

20 certainly continue.

21 Q. Mr. Redzic, did you, after having returned to the municipality of

22 Vlasenica, did you submit a report on what you had seen?

23 A. Yes. During that period of time in Vlasenica there was already a

24 group of people representing the Serbs. This group consisted of six Serbs

25 and also of six Muslims who represented the Muslims. They were in my

Page 9252

1 office, and I informed this group about what I had seen in the area that I

2 visited together with Mr. Stanic. I really didn't hide anything because

3 Mr. Stanic was there with me. The members of this negotiating team were

4 opposed, to my information, from the field. They didn't believe the word

5 that I said; he called me a liar. I have to admit that Stanic was very

6 correct at that moment and that he did say that the Serbian soldiers bore

7 some very strange insignia on their hats.

8 Q. Did Mr. Stanic try to deny your words in any way?

9 A. No, not at all. He was very correct. He kept quiet. And when he

10 said something, he said that I was right, that my report was truthful, and

11 that what I said about the Serbian soldiers and about their insignia was

12 correct, that they bore the Chetnik insignia from the Second World War.

13 Q. Did he try to deny that the Serbs had already been mobilised on

14 the ground, they wore uniforms?

15 A. No, I submitted a general report that there had been mobilisation,

16 that the Serbs had weapons and uniforms, that they were well supplied.

17 And the only thing that he said when his people objected and they said

18 that I was exaggerating, he said, no, it's true what Redzic is saying and

19 these people do bear some very strange insignia on their hats.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just with respect to what was

22 denied, again this is another form of leading the witness and I just would

23 ask that more attention be paid to --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That is a legitimate question. I mean,

25 unfortunately it's a repetition of -- it's inviting him to repeat what he

Page 9253

1 stated earlier. Because if he had stated that Mr. Stanic bore him out and

2 confirmed what he had been saying, I mean there was no need to ask him

3 whether he tried to deny -- anyway, let's move.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Redzic, what happened next with regard to this report of

6 yours?

7 A. After this report, the other members of Serb origin did not want

8 to accept my report even after the words of their president, Mr. Stanic.

9 They asked for a four-member-strong commission should be set up and that

10 they should visit the same area that Mr. Stanic and I had visited before

11 that.

12 Q. How did you look at that proposal on the setting up a new

13 commission?

14 A. Well, it was nothing new under the sun. Whenever Serbs want to

15 hide something, they use the method of setting up a new commission and so

16 on and so forth.

17 Q. Mr. Redzic, from that moment on, what happened to you and other

18 Muslims from the leadership of the Vlasenica municipality, from that

19 moment on?

20 A. From that moment on, many things happened. The war started on the

21 8th of April. This was the day when Zvornik was attacked and then

22 Bratunac, Srebrenica, and Vlasenica, unperiled. At that moment from the

23 end of March until the moment I left Vlasenica, a lot of Bosniaks had left

24 the area. And during that period of time and after these meetings, as far

25 as I can remember, we signed --

Page 9254












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9255

1 Q. We'll come to that.

2 A. Very well then. At that moment in the area of Podrinje there was

3 aggression, there was shelling, killing, the shelling of Zvornik, Skelani,

4 Bratunac, and this moved on towards Srebrenica. The wave was moving on

5 towards Srebrenica until the entire Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was

6 occupied.

7 Q. Before the war started, did you have any information about the

8 division of certain municipalities in the field, especially when it comes

9 to --

10 A. The principle was the same, the same thing that happened in

11 Vlasenica happened elsewhere. In Srebrenica the Serbs wanted to see the

12 municipality divided, in Zvornik as well, in Bratunac and Vlasenica. The

13 principle was the same everywhere.

14 Q. When it comes to the division in Vlasenica, what happened there?

15 What was your experience? What did the Serbs insist on in that area?

16 A. The document that I have says that the Serbs wanted the

17 municipality of Vlasenica to be split into three parts, into the Serbian

18 municipality of Vlasenica, the Muslim municipality of Vlasenica, and the

19 municipality of Milici. There was no way out of that. There were threats

20 coming from them. They said, "If you refuse to do that we will achieve it

21 by blood, tanks, and expulsion." And as far as I remember on the 4th of

22 April --

23 Q. Mr. Redzic, let me ask you this: Before that, did you report the

24 republican leadership about those events?

25 A. Of course I did. That was my duty after all. I could not have

Page 9256

1 taken any risks upon myself. I reported directly to Mr. Alija Izetbegovic

2 about the things that happened to us and what we were forced to do by the

3 Serbs in the territory of Vlasenica. And all the -- the situation in all

4 the other municipalities in the subregion, and in Bosnia and Herzegovina

5 for that matter, was the same.

6 Q. What did Mr. Izetbegovic reply to you at the time?

7 A. Mr. Alija Izetbegovic said, and I quote: Mr. Redzic, do whatever

8 and sign whatever in order to save as many people as possible. Stall as

9 long as you can, stall the negotiations, try to prolong everything in

10 order to enable as many people to leave the territory of Vlasenica because

11 that -- those people were bare-handed. They didn't have any arms.

12 Q. In that did he mention the international community at all?

13 A. Yes. I said to Mr. Izetbegovic, Izetbegovic, President, this is

14 no joke; this is the end. The Serbs are armed to the tooth. There is no

15 single house, there is no single child or an elderly person or anybody for

16 that matter who doesn't have a weapon. At any given moment, the Muslims

17 are threatened to be eradicated from the area. Mr. Izetbegovic says this

18 should not happen; the international community will not allow this. And

19 indeed, he was not aware of the situation on the ground. At many earlier

20 meetings he said to us that we were too panicky, that the situation on the

21 ground was not what we portrayed it to be. He trusted the international

22 community too much and he was not in the least informed about the

23 situation. Maybe he didn't want to know; I don't really want to go into

24 that.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I intend to use an

Page 9257

1 exhibit after this. Maybe this would be the best moment for our next

2 break and for me to wrap up this part of my examination.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... we'll have a

4 break of 25 minutes starting from now. Thank you.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- Your Honour, I forgot

8 to tender the transcript that you received along with the video.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, yeah, yeah, all right.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If it can be given a number.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's easy. That will become D696/T or dot

12 1, dot 1. All right. In the meantime just before you proceed -- before

13 you proceed with you questions to the witness, I have had the meeting that

14 I promised you I would seek a few minutes ago. But I suppose that you

15 should -- the only thing that you ought to do is take up the matter with

16 the head of OLAD, who's given me all the information that we required. I

17 don't anticipate that there will be any problems; however, there is a

18 protocol that is applied by OLAD to all lawyers that needs to be followed,

19 and that is whether money is paid in advance or afterwards. We will also

20 confirm in writing our expectations as to the estimated duration of this

21 case, in other words for how long we expect you to be actively engaged

22 until the end of your Defence case. And I have also explained in no

23 unclear terms that we do expect you to be working these three weeks of

24 August when we will be in recess -- not three weeks of August, but the

25 summer recess. Part of it is in July, and most of it is in August. So

Page 9258

1 that is the position.

2 You will, of course, understand that we are not in a position to

3 go beyond that and the matter is entirely in the hands of OLAD who has the

4 discretion to decide on these things. But I don't think from what I have

5 heard that you should have reasons for any particular reasons. That's it.

6 So let's proceed. Let's not waste any more time. These 2 minutes

7 you will not get back because I have --

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You've already got some help.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your

11 support.

12 Would the usher please show the witness document D604. For the

13 record, this is a protocol of the agreement between the representatives of

14 the Serbian and the Muslim people who were authorised by the

15 representatives of the parties and council for inter-ethnic cooperation on

16 the setting up of new municipalities.

17 Q. Mr. Redzic, would you please look at this document and tell us

18 whether you are familiar with it.

19 A. Yes. Yes, of course I am. This is a document that I signed

20 together with the other five members representing the Muslim people. And

21 on the other side there were six signatures from the ranks of the Serb

22 people.

23 Q. Would you please tell the Chamber to whom you gave the original of

24 this document?

25 A. I think the original was handed over to the Office of the

Page 9259

1 Prosecutor of this Tribunal in the course of other proceedings here.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Redzic, you are familiar with this contents of

3 this document. Can you briefly comment on it, please?

4 A. I don't know whether one can comment on it briefly, because it

5 shows that it was prepared very carefully over a long period of time. The

6 other Muslims and I did not have anything to enter into it because we knew

7 it would not create peace on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. If

8 you look only at these three municipalities, the Serbian municipality of

9 Vlasenica and Milici municipality, you can see that this was done well and

10 carefully prepared and that it was prepared by a group of experts,

11 geographical survey experts, town-planning experts, and so on. On this

12 document you can see that the lines separating of the Serbian municipality

13 of Vlasenica and Milici municipality are very carefully drawn in great

14 detail. And this was done by eminent experts who could not have prepared

15 this within a brief space of time, so that this preparation had to have

16 taken place over a much longer period of time in order to arrive at this

17 division.

18 Q. Could you please tell Their Honours under what number on page 7

19 your signature is.

20 A. Number 1.

21 Q. Would you please tell Their Honours what happened to you after you

22 signed this agreement.

23 A. I talked to Mr. Milenko Stanic, considering that he was the right

24 person to tell me because I would have told him if something was being

25 prepared for his people. And he personally told me that I should leave

Page 9260

1 the territory of Vlasenica municipality and that there was nothing he

2 could do to help me precisely because of the process and the army, the

3 JNA, and the return of the mobilised soldiers. He was referring to the

4 criminal report against me that I have already mentioned.

5 Q. How would you evaluate his attitudes towards you? Was it correct

6 or not at that time?

7 A. Well, I have to be fair and say that at that time he really did

8 treat me correctly.

9 Q. Did he tell you anything else at the time that you feel is

10 significant for further developments, something that you feel is important

11 generally?

12 A. Mr. Stanic told me that the area of Podrinje would be cleansed of

13 Muslims completely and that what was left for the Muslims in Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina was the enclave of Tuzla and the enclave of Zenica. He told

15 me not to go to Sarajevo because there would be rivers of blood flowing

16 there.

17 Q. Did he mention the international community?

18 A. Yes. Bearing in mind that Muslims were leaving their farms and

19 their hearths and their homes, I said to Mr. Stanic, you are persecuting

20 us, expelling us bare-handed. The international community will help the

21 people, the Muslims and the Catholics and maybe Serbs who might have been

22 cleansed from other areas. And the international community will give us

23 weapons and the Muslims will personally come perhaps with weapons to

24 liberate what had been theirs for centuries. And he said to me,

25 "Mr. Redzic, the international community is lying to you. They are

Page 9261

1 telling you one thing and they are telling us something quite different."

2 And to be sure, when I saw what happened afterwards, I often recalled

3 Mr. Stanic and knew that it was really the way he said it would be.

4 Q. Thank you. And what happened from that point onwards after the

5 4th of April?

6 A. Military operations started. The Serb forces attacked Zvornik on

7 the 8th, before that Bijeljina, on the 4th at Bajram, on the 8th they

8 attacked Zvornik, and then they continued along the river Drina against

9 Bratunac and Srebrenica, and finally it was the turn of Vlasenica and many

10 other municipalities throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. And when did you leave Vlasenica?

12 A. On the 19th of April, 1992.

13 Q. And did you submit any kind of report to the remaining authorities

14 in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes, of course. I informed people at the republican level as far

16 as was possible. And on my arrival in Tuzla, I told them what had been

17 going on and what might happen in the area around Tuzla also.

18 Q. And when you arrived there, did you continue your activities

19 having to do with Podrinje and Vlasenica?

20 A. Yes, when I arrived in Tuzla by way of Kladanj --

21 Q. Could you please slow down a little bit because it's difficult for

22 the interpreters to keep up with you and could you please make a brief

23 pause between my question and your reply so that everything can be

24 interpreted.

25 A. Very well. I told you when I arrived in Tuzla via Kladanj, I

Page 9262

1 started my work which I was duty-bound to do under the constitution and

2 the law.

3 Q. So what did you begin doing? What specifically did you do when

4 you arrived in Tuzla? Who did you report to?

5 A. At that time, we applied to the Tuzla municipality and asked to be

6 given some premises there because the municipality had premises at its

7 disposal.

8 Q. And were you given premises?

9 A. Yes, near the music school in a hut, a shed, which was owned by

10 the Tuzla municipality, from Vlasenica municipality, Zvornik municipality,

11 Srebrenica, Bratunac, all the officials who had --

12 Q. Mr. Redzic, if I make a pause, I'm waiting for the interpretation.

13 Could you please clarify: For what purpose were you given premises as

14 well as the other people from the municipalities you have just mentioned?

15 Could you please repeat that part?

16 A. In connection with Vlasenica, we were given premises in order to

17 continue our work concerning the large numbers of people who had been

18 expelled from there, to provide minimum accommodation for them and what

19 they needed to survive. As for the people from the other municipalities

20 in the subregions, Zvornik, Srebrenica, and Bratunac, they were given

21 premises in the same shed and they also formed their War Presidencies in

22 exile.

23 Q. And when was this?

24 A. This was in late April or early May.

25 Q. What year, sir?

Page 9263

1 A. 1992.

2 Q. First let me ask you this: What was your position in this

3 dislocated War Presidency of Vlasenica in Tuzla?

4 A. I was the president of the War Presidency of the Vlasenica SO in

5 exile.

6 Q. From that point on, did you have any contacts with the people who

7 formed similar bodies from Srebrenica - you call the War Presidencies -

8 from Srebrenica and Bratunac who you said were in the same building?

9 A. In view of the fact that we were sharing the same building and

10 that we had the same problems, it was quite logical for us to meet on a

11 daily basis and exchange opinions, and what we learned from the ground

12 from people who were expelled.

13 Q. What was your duty as the president of the dislocated War

14 Presidency?

15 A. Our task boiled down to receiving refugees, people who had been

16 expelled, to providing accommodation for them and securing the minimum

17 conditions for survival in that period.

18 Q. Mr. Redzic, did you talk to the people who arrived from these

19 areas and can you tell Their Honours in what period people continued

20 arriving in Tuzla from those areas?

21 A. The period of the persecutions was in early April and it continued

22 until the autumn. But one should not forget that many people continued to

23 arrive. They were risking their lives. Many passed through the woods.

24 Some were killed. Others managed to reach the free territory, so that

25 people arrived in small groups through the woods and we interviewed them

Page 9264

1 when they arrived, asking them what was going on in the areas they had

2 come from.

3 Q. And these people who arrived from Vlasenica, did they give you

4 information about the overall situation in Vlasenica, or rather the area

5 from which they fled regarding all aspects of their lives?

6 A. Yes. These people were not just from the town of Vlasenica, it's

7 a municipality with 507 square kilometres and they arrived from all over

8 the municipality and they arrived in small groups and they gave us

9 information about the situation in that area.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

12 witness D657.

13 Q. This is a document sent to the Ministry of Defence of Tuzla by

14 Midhat Fejzic. Kindly look at this document it's name is: "Data,

15 information." My question to you, first of all, is whether you're

16 familiar with this document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is this document about? Could you briefly comment on it?

19 Did you ever see this document before you arrived here at the Tribunal?

20 A. Yes because it was compiled by a man who was a member of the War

21 Presidency, Midhat Fejzic, and he was in charge of the secretariat for

22 national defence so that this is a report written by him. You can see

23 that this was compiled in early 1994 and it incorporates all the previous

24 reports of people arriving from the free territory when they were still

25 able to arrive in buses or when the Serbs transported people by truck, and

Page 9265

1 especially the people who walked through the woods to reach the free area,

2 all these people provided information and each and every one of them was

3 asked to describe the situation on the ground, whatever was important.

4 Q. Would you please look at the last paragraph of this document where

5 it says: "We do not have data on the material damage caused by the

6 aggressor in the region of Vlasenica municipality, but we can claim with

7 certainty on the basis of statements made by witnesses from this region

8 that the damage is great and beyond calculation, particularly with respect

9 to Vlasenica and its immediate surroundings, and the villages around it.

10 There is not one village that has not been looted, torched, and destroyed.

11 We do not have exact data on the total amount of the damage because the

12 aggressor is still in the territory."

13 So with respect to this, I wish to ask you the following: Does

14 this document confirm that you, the War Presidency, received information

15 in the way you have described?

16 A. Yes, that was the only way we were able to get information, as I

17 have just said. When people arrived from the area, they told us what had

18 happened and in this last paragraph he says: "In Vlasenica and around

19 Vlasenica all this territory was destroyed, burnt, looted, and places

20 further away such as Cerska and Dzile, they were a kind of free enclave."

21 Q. Thank you very much. In your conversations with the people

22 arriving, did you get information that among the refugees in Vlasenica,

23 attempts were made to resist the Serbs? Did you have that kind of

24 information at all or not?

25 A. Of course we did. The people who arrived from the area told us

Page 9266

1 what had been destroyed, where; what had been burnt, where; where people

2 had been killed. And we also received information that the free territory

3 of our municipality, the area of Cerska, Dzile, and Jurici, Vrsinje near

4 Suceska and near the Srebrenica municipality.

5 Q. Did they tell you about armed groups, if they spoke about that at

6 all?

7 A. Yes. This is the area towards the Srebrenica municipality. He

8 had been the commander of the police station in Vlasenica,

9 Mr. Fadil Turkovic and Mr. Becir Mekanic, in that area. As for Cerska,

10 down there, there was Mr. Ferat Hodzic.

11 Q. Did you have any information about those groups fighting the Serbs

12 there trying to get something done?

13 A. Yes. We did have information because people who were respected in

14 the area had the role of protecting the refugees and the Muslim people in

15 the area of Dzile and below Dzile, bordering with Suceska as well as

16 Cerska itself.

17 Q. The refugees who arrived, did they describe the situation on the

18 ground? Did they tell you how these groups were organised, whether or not

19 they were organised?

20 A. As for organisation, these were self-organised local people led by

21 the two men I have named on the territory of Vlasenica municipality.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

23 Yes.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, with respect to the information

25 being given to the witness, there's reference to the refugees giving

Page 9267

1 information. I would ask that we have some reference to names, if the

2 witness knows, so that we create a picture that doesn't entirely seem like

3 hearsay and what they said exactly --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We've been receiving hearsay for the past eight

5 months, nine months plus, in any case.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: I understand that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I think your observation is very valid and

8 if the witness can identify by name any particular persons from these

9 refugees that were passing on this information to him, then please go

10 ahead, please do. I very much doubt where we are going -- where we are

11 going to get.

12 You said, Mr. Redzic, that there were refugees passing this

13 information on to you. Do you recall any one in particular amongst these

14 refugees by name that the Prosecution can then identify?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this was a large number of

16 people. Of course, it would be unnatural if I couldn't remember any of

17 them, but there were 5 or 6.000 people who had left that territory in

18 various ways, on foot, by bus, by truck. One such man was Mumin Ademovic

19 [phoen] who lives in the Netherlands today. Later on he was employed in

20 Vlasenica municipality.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go on.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, I will ask

23 more questions in this direction because we also wish to know who provided

24 this information.

25 Q. Did there come a time when one of the commanders you mentioned,

Page 9268

1 himself, arrived in Tuzla, a leader of the one of the local groups?

2 A. Yes. Towards the end of October 1992, Mr. Becir Mekanic arrived

3 on the free territory of Tuzla.

4 Q. Did you at that time have a detailed talk with him about how he

5 had organised his group, what his relations were with other fighters --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Because again, this is the kind of leading questions

7 that you shouldn't be putting, especially on this -- in this area of

8 evidence.

9 Did you meet this Mr. Mekanic? Did you have a meeting with him

10 when he arrived in the free territory of Tuzla.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, and we continued

12 coordinating our activities until he was killed. I met him and we

13 coordinated our activities until he was killed in 1995.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. When you met him the first time, what

15 did you discuss? What was discussed between you or amongst you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our discussion was mainly about

17 general information, about refugees, about humanitarian organisations,

18 about the military resistance, and I'm referring to the self-organised

19 spontaneous resistance of the local people. He often told me that there

20 was chaos, that humanitarian conditions were chaotic, that there was an

21 enormous amount of refugees who had been in the woods a long time, and he

22 himself was a local man. He was influential in the area, and he tried to

23 organise resistance and save the refugees, the Muslim refugees in the

24 area. Of course he had huge problems. There was no army there, there was

25 no chain of command, and he went to Cerska sometime in September I think.

Page 9269

1 And he told me that there was no cooperation, that cooperation was very

2 poor, that individuals were denying what others were doing, that they were

3 engaged in a kind of power struggle. And this weakened the organised

4 resistance that the Muslims were offering in that area.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Redzic, did he mention any names of commanders with whom he

8 did or did not cooperate?

9 A. Yes. He most often mentioned Zulfo, who was from the area of

10 Suceska, and his arrogance. This made Mr. Mekanic leave the area and go

11 toward Cerska. And then in late October, as I said, he came to Tuzla.

12 Q. Were you able to understand from what he said whether between

13 Mr. Mekanic and others on the ground there was any kind of

14 superior-subordinate relationship?

15 A. On the contrary. There was conflicts and there was no

16 coordination. It was self-organised people trying to save what they could

17 while individuals were trying to gain the upper hand over each other and

18 there was no kind of subordination. There was even animosity between or

19 among those individuals.

20 Q. Is this what Mr. Mekanic told you?

21 A. Yes. I spoke to Mr. Mekanic. We had many conversations between

22 1992 and 1995 about everything.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now please show the

25 witness document P123. For the record, this is a document issued by the

Page 9270

1 District Staff of Tuzla of 28th of September, 1992. It's a report on the

2 staffs and units and the institutions that had been set up.

3 Q. Mr. Redzic, could you please take a look at page 01827485, and

4 towards the bottom of the page it says "Municipal Defence Staff of

5 Vlasenica."

6 Have you found it?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Let me first ask you this: Can you look at what it says under

9 items 1 through 10, and can you tell us whether you had any information

10 about anything that is described herein about the existence of the units

11 which are listed here in the area that you've mentioned a while ago in the

12 area of Srebrenica and Vlasenica.

13 A. Yes. You can see here the Defence Staff of the municipality of

14 Vlasenica. A reference is made to the TO Vlasenica, TO Cerska and TO

15 Dzile. These are the areas that I have spoken about and this document was

16 probably in the possession of my secretary for defence, Midhat Fejzic.

17 And if you're asking me how this happened --

18 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Redzic. Let me draw attention to this.

19 This -- the date is 29 August 1992. Let me ask you this: People who

20 arrived from the field including Mekanic, did they tell you about these

21 units that existed as units that existed in Vlasenica at the time?

22 A. Yes. I've already said that the area where Mr. Mekanic was, where

23 Mr. Fadil Turkovic was, those were the so-called free territories of

24 Vlasenica. The other part is Cerska and there were indeed the staffs of

25 Territorial Defence there. I believe that this information was also

Page 9271

1 brought by many people who arrived through the woods and when they arrived

2 to the corps they provided the security of the 2nd Corps of the BiH army

3 with this information. And I believe that they drew up the document based

4 on that information.

5 Q. Mr. Redzic, could you go two pages forward and can you please look

6 at the page 018271484. Could you please look at the part entitled "the

7 Municipal Staff of the Defence of Srebrenica."

8 And let me ask you this: What was your information from the

9 people who arrived, and especially from Mr. Mekanic, about the

10 relationship between the fighters from Vlasenica and the fighters from

11 Srebrenica?

12 A. As for the relationship, I have already said that the relationship

13 was almost non-existent. Srebrenica was too far from this area and so

14 were the Cerska and Srebrenica units. This is 15 kilometres from the

15 territory that was under the control of the Serbian army, and as for the

16 parts which were under the control of Fadil Turkovic and Becir Mekanic,

17 there was also no cooperation between them and the Srebrenica TO.

18 Q. Mr. Redzic, did Mr. Mekanic tell you that?

19 A. Of course. Becir Mekanic repeated that, and it was this lack of

20 cooperation that made him to go towards Cerska and further on towards

21 Tuzla.

22 Q. Let me ask you something else. Did you know Ferid Hodzic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who was he?

25 A. Mr. Ferid Hodzic was the commander of the TO of the Municipal

Page 9272

1 Staff of Vlasenica before the war. When the war broke out, he left for

2 Cerska.

3 Q. In this document that you have mentioned, reference is made to the

4 Cerska detachment. Isn't that true?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. Did there come a time during the war when Ferid himself appeared

7 in Tuzla, Ferid Hodzic, that is?

8 A. When Cerska fell in February, Ferid Hodzic arrived with a large

9 group of soldiers, to put it that way, from Cerska. And he broke through

10 to the free territory of Tuzla.

11 Q. And after that, did you talk to Mr. Ferid Hodzic and how did he

12 describe the situation that prevailed in the territory of Srebrenica and

13 Vlasenica?

14 A. Of course that we talked. We had constant conversations. He

15 personally told me that in Cerska, in the territory of Cerska, there was a

16 disaster. The army was not armed, certain groups or local individuals,

17 commanders, failed to be disciplined. They fought for power. They did

18 not very much care about the organisation of the army.

19 Q. Just for the record, could you tell us when did Ferid Hodzic

20 arrive in Tuzla? You said when Cerska fell. Can you put it in a time

21 context?

22 A. It was in February 2003.

23 Q. What year, once again? You said 2003?

24 A. I'm sorry. 1993. I misspoke.

25 Q. Thank you very much. You also told us that you knew Ferid Hodzic

Page 9273

1 very well. Did you talk to him specifically about the events that

2 happened in Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and Srebrenica?

3 A. Of course I did. We had a lot to talk about. Those things were a

4 priority and we discussed them at great length.

5 Q. Did you talk to him about the organisation of the units in that

6 area? And how did he describe that organisation to you?

7 A. Yes, we did. We discussed that and he said that there were some

8 individuals in the area who were arrogant, who were not responsible, and

9 so on and so forth.

10 Q. Let me ask you this: Did he mention any attempts to consolidate

11 the resistance in the enclaves? Did he mention anything of that sort?

12 A. Yes. He mentioned the organisation of the subregion or the

13 setting up of the subregion. I believe that this happened sometime in

14 November 1992, according to him. There was a meeting in Konjevic Polje.

15 The intention was to consolidate the political and military structures in

16 that area.

17 Q. And what did he tell you about that? Was the intention ever

18 carried through? What did he tell you about that?

19 A. No, it never happened. He said that this never took off the

20 ground. There was a meeting, there were some proposals, but he said that

21 this never functioned, this never took off the ground, and he really did

22 not want to accept the proposals that were put forth at the meeting.

23 Q. Mr. Redzic, can you tell the Trial Chamber what Mr. Hodzic told

24 you? Why was he -- what was he proposed for in the subregion?

25 A. He said that Mr. Hamed Salihovic was put forth on behalf of the

Page 9274

1 civilian authorities as the president of the subregion, that

2 Mr. Naser Oric was put forth as the commander of the subregion, and that

3 he, himself, was proposed as the chief in the subregion. And indeed he

4 said that he never accepted to be a chief under Naser Oric.

5 Q. In other words, based on what he told you, did you gain the

6 impression that he was ever under the command of Naser Oric?

7 A. According to what he said, I would never say that he was under

8 that command. The question is whether he could ever be during that short

9 period of the establishment of that subregion.

10 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what he told you -- he told

11 you, if anything, about his reasons for not accepting the position of the

12 chief of the subregion?

13 A. According to him, there was a general disaster in the area. The

14 Serb forces during that period of time, when they met in November, had

15 already started a major offensive. They shelled everything that could be

16 destroyed in the area, and the physical separation of the units from

17 Srebrenica from the units in Cerska and Konjevic Polje was also a factor.

18 So this just could not exist.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the record we

20 would like to explain. I asked the witness about the reasons why he

21 didn't accept to be the Chief of Staff, and all this time on the record we

22 have the word "chief," which may lead to a misunderstanding.

23 Q. Did you understand me when I asked you about his position of the

24 chief, that it was position of the Chief of Staff?

25 A. Yes, that's how I understood your question.

Page 9275

1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... convenient for

2 you. And we will continue tomorrow morning in this courtroom. I thank

3 you.

4 In the meantime, Mr. Redzic, just one small piece of information

5 that I need to give you. You haven't finished with your testimony and

6 therefore that -- Mr. Redzic, I need to inform you that since you have not

7 finished your testimony as yet and that you will continue tomorrow, you

8 are not to communicate with anyone or let anyone communicate with you and

9 discuss in any manner the contents of the -- of your testimony and the

10 events that you are testifying about. So I have your word for that.

11 We'll reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you all.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

14 July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.