Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11831

1 Tuesday, 4 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

9 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam, and thank you.

11 Mr. Oric, can you following the proceedings in your own language?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

13 gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in a language that I

14 understand.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You say sit down and good morning to

16 you.

17 Appearances for the Prosecution.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

20 my colleagues of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the

21 Prosecution. I'm here together with counsel, Ms. Joanne Richardson, our

22 case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink. And later on this session,

23 Ms. Patricia Sellers will also join the team.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

25 your team.

Page 11832

1 Appearances for Naser Oric.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I am

3 Vasvija Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones we are representing

4 Mr. Naser Oric. And we have our legal assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our

5 CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts, with us. And good morning to my

6 colleagues from the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good morning to you

8 and your team.

9 Any preliminaries?

10 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we can --

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic -- yes. Okay.

15 Madam Vidovic, you may proceed with your examination-in-chief, and

16 sorry for having interrupted you, but we had a problem with this and

17 it's -- I know it's easier if I fix it myself rather than have to wait,

18 considering that we are limited for time.

19 So let's proceed.

20 WITNESS: (redacted) [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, witness.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. In your testimony yesterday we ended at the photographs, and if

Page 11833

1 you recall in the photographs you recognised four people, Refik Hasanovic,

2 from Mihaljevici; Huso Rizvanovic, the brother of Nuriz [phoen]

3 Rizvanovic, Almaz Demenovic [phoen], and Hasan Almihirovic [phoen] and

4 that's where we stopped.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the

6 photographs to the witness again and the list D647.

7 Q. Could you please look at the list. The title "List of military

8 conscripts" and to the free territory on the 27th of July, 1992, as the

9 16th Muslim Brigade. Yesterday you were looking at it and now I would

10 like you to look at page 7 in the Bosnian language and --

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's page 8, Your Honours, in the

12 English.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Have you found it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This page starts with the name of Hasanovic, Memis [phoen]. The

18 name under the number 29, Refik Hasanovic, son of Fadil, do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that the person you recognised on the photograph?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that the person you recognised on the photograph as coming with

23 Nurif Rizvanovic on the 8th of August to Cizmici?

24 A. Yes, that's the same person, Refik Hasanovic, son of Fadil.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a minute because we need to be to follow

Page 11834

1 precisely.

2 Could you put the photo on the ELMO, usher. Usher, could you put

3 the photo on the ELMO and ask the witness to point to the person he

4 recognises as Refik Hasanovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, the witness is much better at

6 recognising than --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Please try to

8 understand that I am not being fussy.

9 Yes, could you point to the person you maintain is or who you

10 recognise as Refik Hasanovic, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's this person here by the name

12 of Refik Hasanovic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please now look at page 14 in the

16 Bosnian. You can go ahead -- go forward seven pages.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the English, Your Honours, that's

18 on page 17.

19 Q. Can you look at the photograph with the number 2?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And can the photograph please be

21 placed on the ELMO so that the Chamber can see it.

22 Q. Please look at this name under number 10, Huso Rizvanovic, son of

23 Nurija, and if you can please indicate who that is on the photograph?

24 A. This is Huso Rizvanovic son of Nurija.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please tell us where he's from.

Page 11835

1 A. He's from Glogova.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Can you now look at page 5 in the Bosnian

3 language of the list?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And that's also page 5 in the

5 English, Your Honours.

6 Q. If you can look at the name under 9. Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That is Almaz Demirovic, son of Hamed. Could you now please look

9 at photograph 3.

10 A. Yes. This is Almaz Demirovic.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. And finally, can you please look at

12 page 8 in the Bosnian?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And this is on page 10 in the

14 English, Your Honours.

15 Q. Please look at person next to the number 7, that is Hasan

16 Ibrahimovic, son of Ibrahim.

17 A. Ibrahimovic.

18 Q. Yes, Ibrahimovic, I apologise. Please look at the photograph and

19 point out who that is.

20 A. This is Hasan Ibrahimovic from Krasno Polje.

21 Q. All these people you pointed out, were they with Nurif Rizvanovic

22 on the 8th of August?

23 A. Yes, they were there Cizmici on the 8th of August, 1992.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Could you please keep this document

25 with you for the time being. We don't need the photographs but we will be

Page 11836

1 needing the list a little bit later. Could you please describe or tell to

2 the Trial Chamber what kind of weapons Nurif's fighters had whom you said

3 you saw on the 8th of August, 1992.

4 A. They had automatic weapons, Kalashnikovs, Zoljas, hand-held

5 launchers, and they also had a PAM.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. You said that Nurif came to Ejub

7 Golic and that you attended that conversation. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember what Nurif Rizvanovic told Ejub Golic on that

10 occasion?

11 A. Yes, I do remember. He said that in the village of Lolici that

12 the people of the village of Lolici heard loud artillery fire and that

13 they informed him about it and that he immediately went towards us,

14 towards Siljkovici. He had two groups, one group went to Siljkovici and

15 the other group went towards Djermani.

16 Q. And did he tell you what was happening there, was there a fight

17 between his groups and the Serbs?

18 A. Yes, there was some fierce fighting.

19 Q. Were there any casualties in the fighting?

20 A. Yes, they said that they did have casualties.

21 Q. Did he say how the fighting was conducted, were the Serbs shooting

22 at them?

23 A. Yes. The artillery was at Siljkovici. There was a lot of

24 artillery at Siljkovici and they had casualties there. There was also

25 fighting in Djermani at Stara Jezestica.

Page 11837

1 Q. And what did he say? How did this fighting end?

2 A. He said that they did not manage to capture Siljkovici, that they

3 set off in the direction of Djermani in order to get to us.

4 Q. Why didn't they capture Siljkovici? Did he say?

5 A. There was a lot of artillery there, a lot of Serb artillery, so

6 they were not able to capture it.

7 Q. Do you -- are you familiar with the old part of Jezestica, did you

8 go there before the war?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what the houses are made

11 of in Stara Jezestica and Djermani?

12 A. The houses were built of stone -- of wood and special material

13 called crpici [phoen].

14 Q. Could you please tell us whether you found out if Nurif's fighters

15 used PAMs and Zoljas in the fighting?

16 A. They said that they used it, PAMs, Zoljas; also hand-held

17 launchers.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like the

19 witness to look at a new document by the Defence. It's a document by

20 the Federal Ministry of Defence from the military centre in Tuzla,

21 military post in Tuzla, and it's sent at my request. It's

22 entitled "certificate."

23 Your Honours, we have just one correction to this question. To my

24 question: What is the material that the houses in old Jezestica were

25 made, the witness replies: From wood and crpici and here it says

Page 11838

1 "stone."

2 Q. Witness, could you please try to explain what crpici is, is that

3 stone? What exactly is that material?

4 A. We used the term "crpici" in order to describe material like earth

5 or clay or soil. It was a mixture of straw and soil, and then this would

6 be placed on top of the timber.

7 Q. It's not stone; it's not a hard material?

8 A. No, it's not.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 Could you now please look at this certificate that you received.

11 It states -- it confirms that Nedzad Civic son of Resid, born in 1967 in

12 the place of Suha, municipality Bratunac is kept on file at the military

13 unit and he was killed as a member of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

14 in the place Siljkovici in combat as the a member of the 16th Muslim East

15 Bosnian Brigade. Could you tell me whether you heard of this person?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where did this soldier die? Where was he killed, what does it

18 say?

19 A. This soldier was killed in Siljkovici.

20 Q. Thank you very much?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

22 please be given an exhibit number?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Ms. Vidovic. What's the next number,

24 80 --

25 THE REGISTRAR: D802, Your Honour.

Page 11839

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document which doesn't seem to have a number

2 because this is a document procured directly by lead counsel from the

3 Bosnian authority. This document consisting of two pages, one in the

4 original B/C/S and the other one the equivalent corresponding translation

5 into English being received, marked as Defence D802.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, could you please look again at the military conscripts

8 again sent to the free territory of the 16th Muslim Brigade; this is

9 document D647. Do you have that in front of you? Could you please look

10 at page 4 of the list. It starts with the name of Mustafa Dervisevic?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is on page 5 in

12 the English.

13 Q. Now, could you please at the bottom of the page, number 3, the

14 fifth name from the bottom, Nedzad, Civic, son of Resid from Suha?

15 A. Yes, that is the person, Nedzad Civic.

16 Q. Is that the person you heard was killed in Siljkovici?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't need this document anymore.

20 Q. Witness, before I continue regarding Nurif Rizvanovic, I just

21 wanted to briefly ask you something that I already asked you yesterday.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

23 given Defence Exhibit 176 now, please.

24 Q. Witness, it's an excerpt from a book by Cak Suditic [phoen]. If

25 you can turn to page 2 right away, you can look at this page with the

Page 11840

1 photograph, please. Yesterday on several occasions you described the

2 sweeping or the cleansing. You remember the two documents, one from the

3 27th of July, 1992, and the other from the 4th of August, 1992, where the

4 word "cleansing" or "sweeping" Glogova was mentioned. You said that the

5 Serbs attacked you frontally, that they were deployed in lines. This is a

6 photograph from a different area. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber

7 what you were describing, Serbs being deployed in lines. Did that look

8 like this, the way it is in this photograph?

9 A. Yes, yes. That's exactly how it looked, just as it is on this

10 photograph.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You can remove the photograph.

13 Q. Now I would like to go back again to the conversation with Nurif

14 Rizvanovic. Please, do you -- do you remember if Nurif Rizvanovic talked

15 to Mr. Golic and other people about when he arrived to the Konjevic Polje

16 region and why. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes, I remember. On that occasion he said that he came a couple

18 of days before that in the Konjevic Polje area and that he had come to

19 help us, the people from Glogovac [as interpreted].

20 Q. Did he say if he knew that Glogova was in a difficult situation?

21 A. Yes. He said that Glogova was in a difficult situation and he

22 also said that he heard from the people who were deported on the 9th of

23 May to the Tuzla and Kladanj area, which we didn't know until then where

24 these people were who had been deported.

25 Q. In other words, you heard from Nurif Rizvanovic for the first time

Page 11841












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11842

1 that the deported people from Glogova were actually in Kladanj?

2 A. Yes, that was the first time that we found out about those

3 people.

4 Q. And did he mention at the time that he was under somebody's

5 command in that area?

6 A. No, he didn't mention anything. He didn't mention anything about

7 a command.

8 Q. Based on the conversation with him, did you actually form an

9 impression about where his command was?

10 A. My impression was that his command was in Tuzla.

11 Q. And did Nurif stay with you to fight in the area of Cizmici?

12 A. No, he didn't stay.

13 Q. And did some of his men stay, a small group or not?

14 A. Yes, a small group of about 20 men stayed behind.

15 Q. Who were those people?

16 A. They were people from Glogova, Suha, Hranca.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now look at an

19 excerpt from a video. It's P328, an excerpt from Naser Oric's interview,

20 and it's tape 2488-6. And we will be looking at the piece of tape from --

21 on the counter 1.22.46 to 1.24.21.

22 Q. Witness, can you please listen carefully to what is being said

23 here.

24 [Videotape played]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I think -- if I heard you well

Page 11843

1 you said 1.22.46 to 1.22.51, but what I see here is 1.23.38 already. I

2 don't mean to interrupt you, but either you or I, one of us is wrong.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I said

4 1.23.33, but it's possible that I made a mistake. But actually, it is

5 what we are seeing here.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take the tape back,

8 reverse to 1.33 [as interpreted] so that it can be a little bit clearer.

9 [Videotape played]

10 "THE INTERPRETER: ... he sent a courier to Senad Goluvovic --

11 that's S-e-n-a-d G-o-l-u-v-o-v-i-c.

12 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] He had replaced Mircet, who had left

13 to become the head of military police. He had the troops who had been in

14 Pale. He said that he was going to attack Jezestica, and as many soldiers

15 as he had, he should also send to attack, that Nurif had fallen into an

16 ambush, and they had to attack this -- these lines above.

17 "And given that these -- it wasn't very far away, it was close,

18 they got there very soon, after that about an hour and a half or two

19 hours, where Ejub had carried out a very strong attack in the area of

20 Jezestica, and where Nurif in the same way attacked Siljkovici. But he

21 wasn't able to take the whole hill, because the top of the hill was very

22 exposed. They got about halfway up and then they had to withdraw. And

23 they had to withdraw back towards Konjevic Polje.

24 "But Ejub Golic, together with the help of Senad Goluvovic and his

25 fighters, succeeded in taking the line of Jezestica, carry out a lightning

Page 11844

1 action and then return. In other words, what they do is they collect the

2 arms and ammunition and then go back to where they were. There wasn't --

3 there was no point in keeping that line, holding that line.

4 "Stephen TEDDER: Sorry, how long is this story going to go on for

5 [indiscernible]?

6 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] That's the end of the story. I just

7 want to say this was happening on the same day that I took Zalazje. After

8 that, Nurif again tried to break through, and succeeded in coming with his

9 troops.

10 "And then these troops were deployed according to the places where

11 they lived. Some went to -- on the lines at Likara, some stayed with Ejub

12 Golic. And Nurif Rizvanovic, seeing that -- how things were in the town

13 itself, so there was nothing there, returned to Konjevic Polje, and from

14 Konjevic Polje went to Kamenica, and then from Kamenica the Chetnik

15 offensive started. We'll talk about that later. We'll talk about the

16 arrest of Nurif and Glodansko Brdo and so on.

17 "Stephen TEDDER: Again, sir, if I can get it right, tomorrow

18 we're doing the attack on Siljkovici and Jezestica?

19 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] No, no, that's it. We're finished

20 with that. No, I won't talk about this because I wasn't there, and I

21 can't tell you any more than I have because I wasn't there. And I'll only

22 tell you in detail about the battles that I took part in.

23 "These actions where I didn't take part, that other people carried

24 out, I don't know the details."

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11845

1 Q. Witness, concerning this part of the interview, I wanted to ask

2 you the following. Up until the 8th of August, 1992, did you ever before

3 that time hear of Naser Oric?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did Ejub Golic used to mention him in whatever context up until

6 then?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In your knowledge, did Naser Oric have anything to do with these

9 attacks with what was happening in Jezestica?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you able to notice that in this part of the interview, Naser

12 Oric said he wouldn't discuss the attacks on Siljkovici and Jezestica

13 because he wasn't familiar with the details?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In this part of the interview he said the following: "Ejub Golic

16 with Senad Golub's assistance and that of his fighters managed to occupy

17 the lines in Jezestica. They carried out a swift intervention and then

18 they turned back."

19 You said that in this action you were together with Ejub Golic up

20 to Hrastik. That's what you said yesterday. Isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

23 Ms. Richardson.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, good morning, sorry to

25 interrupt. However, I would lodge an objection to the manner in which

Page 11846

1 Defence counsel characterised what Mr. Oric said about his knowledge about

2 the attacks in Jezestica. I believe what we all heard, unless I'm

3 mistaken, is that he said he wasn't there but -- not that he was not

4 familiar with the details. And Madam Vidovic has characterised it as Oric

5 saying that he wouldn't discuss the attacks on Siljkovici and Jezestica

6 because he wasn't familiar with the details. I think there's a difference

7 between being familiar with the details and being not present, and he said

8 he was not present, not that he was not familiar with the details.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a difference.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: It may not be a big deal, but I want to -- I just

11 don't want mischaracterisation of what's being said there.

12 MR. JONES: That's precisely what he said, Your Honour, we can

13 read the transcript.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Very definitely there is a difference, but I don't

15 know what he said. I mean, we can go back. I wasn't paying attention to

16 that particular detail, obviously, I mean I was looking at the --

17 following the substance.

18 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's plain as day in the transcript.

19 It's line 13 -- sorry, page 13, lines 10 to --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I want to follow you better like this.

21 Page 13, line?

22 MR. JONES: 10 to 14. He says: "I'll only tell you in detail

23 about the battles I took part in. These actions where I didn't take part,

24 where other people carried out, I don't know the details." So he didn't

25 simply say he wasn't there. He said precisely, "I don't know the

Page 11847

1 details." So I really don't understand what that objection is about.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is the case, that's what I see in the

3 transcript. I think Mr. Jones is right.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, that's fine. If he's pointed that

5 that's what was said but, nonetheless, in the interview itself, and I

6 don't want to make a submission, there is a discussion of some of the

7 details. But he has pointed out that he wasn't there, so I can withdraw

8 the objection. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. All right. Let's proceed.

10 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, I apologise. I will repeat the question. You said that

13 in this particular action together with Mr. Golic reached Hrastik, that's

14 what you said in your testimony yesterday. Do you remember?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Hence my question is the following: Is it correct that Mr. Golic

17 and his group, together with Senad Golub, captured parts of Jezestica?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you know this person, Senad Golub?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you see him in that area at any given time until the end of

22 1992, this Senad Golub, or did you hear of that person?

23 A. I didn't hear of that person and I didn't see it -- see that

24 person there.

25 Q. In your knowledge, did that person from Pale as well as any people

Page 11848

1 who may have come from Pale, did they participate in any way in this

2 action?

3 A. No, otherwise I would have heard that there were there or I would

4 have seen them.

5 Q. Would you tell the Chamber who indeed captured the lines in Stara

6 Jezestica and Djermani?

7 A. Yes. Those lines were captured by Nurif Rizvanovic. He had a

8 well-armed group or a unit - I don't know what their name was - and we

9 stood no chance. We were poorly armed.

10 Q. Thank you. Does this part of Naser Oric's interview describe the

11 exact events as concerns Jezestica?

12 A. No.

13 Q. In relation to that, I wanted to ask you the following, if you

14 remember. Did the people from Suceska participate in the fighting to

15 capture Jezestica on the 8th of August, 1992?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Please tell the Chamber how far is Suceska from this area and from

18 Jezestica?

19 A. Suceska is about 30 kilometres away.

20 Q. In relation to that I have an additional question. Did Ejub

21 Golic's group ever belong to the Potocari group, ever?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were the Cizmici people, the armed people, ever a part of the

24 armed group from Potocari?

25 A. No.

Page 11849

1 Q. Where did they belong then, to which group, these armed people

2 from Cizmici?

3 A. They were with Ejub Golic.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put

6 P95 in front of the witness.

7 Q. This is an alleged document from the 8th Operational Group command

8 dated the 7 of March, 1994. The title is "forwarding of the supplement of

9 the RBiH chronicle guide." Can we look at page 13 in Bosnian and page 10

10 in the English version.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to draw the attention

12 of the Chamber to the fact that this document mentions the alleged

13 activities of the brigade with its headquarters in Suceska, 285th Brigade.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 281st Brigade.

15 Could the counsel please repeat the question, the interpreters

16 didn't find that part in the text.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] To repeat then. I asked the witness

18 to look at the fifth line from the top where it states: "On the 8th of

19 April [as interpreted] of 1992, the unit took part in the wider combat

20 operation in the region of Jezestica."

21 The 8th of August, not the 8th of April. Perhaps that could be

22 corrected for the transcript.

23 Q. In your knowledge, to reiterate that concerning this document, in

24 your knowledge did the Suceska group participate in the activities of the

25 8th of August, 1992, in the area of Jezestica?

Page 11850

1 A. No.

2 Q. The contents of this document pertaining to the participation of

3 the Suceska men in the combat, is that correct?

4 A. No.

5 Q. We mentioned Potocari a minute ago. In your knowledge, did the

6 groups from Potocari participate in the combat activities of the 8th of

7 August, 1992?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Please tell the Chamber how far Potocari is from you, from that

10 area.

11 A. Potocari is about 10 kilometres away.

12 Q. Did people from Osmace on the 8th of August participate in the

13 combat activities around Jezestica?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Tell the Chamber, please, how far Osmace is from the area where

16 you were in Jezestica.

17 A. Osmace is about 50 kilometres away.

18 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And we can now remove the document.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Judge Eser has a question about the

21 distance of Osmace from where they were.

22 JUDGE ESER: With regard to the distance of Osmace, if I take a

23 look at the map, I have the impression that Suceska is farther away from

24 the area you talked about, farther away from Osmace and with regard to

25 Suceska I think you told us that it was 30 kilometres and with regard to

Page 11851

1 Osmace you told us it would be 50 kilometres. Are you sure that it's

2 really 50 kilometres? Is it like the crow flies or -- I really have some

3 problems with your -- the distance you gave. Was it 50 or 15?

4 MR. JONES: Maybe Your Honour is looking at a different map. The

5 map we have Suceska appears. Osmace is not actually on D793. It's off

6 the map. I don't know which -- on which it appears to be -- Osmace

7 appears to be closer --

8 JUDGE ESER: I'm judging from my memory.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 793.

10 JUDGE ESER: I think that Suceska is east of -- no, west of

11 Srebrenica isn't it?

12 MR. JONES: You can ask the witness to find Suceska on the map and

13 he'll probably find -- and then ask him to find Osmace, and I think that

14 might solve the problem.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The map, D793, please.

16 Does it show on D793 Osmace or not?

17 JUDGE ESER: It does not.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But it has to be there.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, could you find Suceska on the map and show it to us,

21 please?

22 A. You said Suceska, didn't you?

23 Q. Yes, Suceska. Perhaps you should look for Srebrenica first and

24 then go to the left. To the left of Srebrenica.

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 11852












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Page 11853

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could you see Osmace? Are they in that area or

2 someplace else? Can you see Osmace?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I would say I think essentially we shouldn't -- I

4 don't think we should lose more time on this. I think even remembering

5 where Osmace is, and it's not on this map, I think it is further away

6 from -- from the area where the witness and the rest were than Suceska.

7 JUDGE ESER: I think it is indeed farther away than Suceska, but

8 where the distance is 20 kilometres, it doesn't matter so much. Thank

9 you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just by way of

12 understanding, when I inquire of some distance from the witness, then I

13 had in mind his area where he was, that is Glogova and Jezestica and not

14 looking from Srebrenica.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I understood.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. When you discuss distances, you meant -- you understood that I was

18 asking the distance from the area where you were?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. To move to a different topic. After the events of the 8th of

21 August, 1992, did you, the Muslims, manage to return to the area of Velika

22 Glogova?

23 A. Yes, we did. We managed to introduce a group, a somewhat larger

24 group of people, as well as a group of civilians.

25 Q. Why did you do that?

Page 11854

1 A. As I said, Cizmici is a small village and there was not enough

2 room for so many people.

3 Q. Was it easier to find food in the area of Velika Glogova or

4 perhaps something else?

5 A. Yes, it was easier to find food.

6 Q. Did a group of armed people leave with the civilians to Velika

7 Glogova?

8 A. Yes. A group of armed men left with them, and the group was

9 headed by Zulfo Comic.

10 Q. Where were you after the 8th of August, 1992?

11 A. I was in Cizmici.

12 Q. Where were Ejub Golic after the 8th of August, 1992, with his men?

13 A. He was in Cizmici, too.

14 Q. Please tell the Chamber how many civilians were there with you at

15 that time in Cizmici, since you said a portion of them left.

16 A. There were about 1.000 civilians in Cizmici at the time.

17 Q. After the 8th of August, 1992, that is during that summer and the

18 fall of 1992, did the Serb forces pressure increase in the area of Glogova

19 and Cizmici, at least the part that you held in your hands?

20 A. Yes. There were daily shellings as well as infantry attacks.

21 Q. Please tell the Chamber the direction of those attacks.

22 A. The attacks were from the direction of Kravica and Jezestica.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher -- no,

24 instead we will run a video recording. It is a part of P317.

25 Your Honour, if we could for a moment move into private session,

Page 11855

1 please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while,

3 please. Thank you. One moment. Let's go into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11856











11 Page 11856 redacted. Private session.















Page 11857

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those of us who were armed as well

19 as other people, we ate -- perhaps I should explain. We ate something

20 called djibra, that's ground apples and then you squeeze the water out and

21 you make some sort of a jam out of it and djibra is what is left. It is

22 dried and then we used to feed the cattle with that. So we reverted to

23 that food. We ate pumpkin; we would mix it with corn flour so as to

24 increase the amount. We ate oats and we also dug into snow looking for

25 frozen apples.

Page 11858

1 Q. Thank you. Those people who suffered such cold, did they have any

2 warm clothing?

3 A. No. They didn't have any. It was catastrophic. They would mend

4 or patch up a pair of pants for ten times. They used hides, whatever they

5 could find to make clothing.

6 Q. On top of the conditions you described, was there a further

7 aggravating factor there?

8 A. Yes. It was the daily shellings and the infantry attacks by the

9 Serbs.

10 Q. And your men, did they try to move in order to look for food and

11 did anything happen to them when they did this?

12 A. Yes. People simply didn't have anything to eat. They would go,

13 as they say, just like that down to the very lines where they were

14 captured and killed.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show

17 the witness a new document by the Bratunac Brigade command dated the 18th

18 of December, 1992, sent to the command of the Drina Corps. It's signed by

19 Commander Lieutenant Colonel Borivoje Tesic. The number of the document

20 is 04361573.

21 Q. Witness, I'm going to read a document to you, and it

22 states: "Based on telegrams strictly confidential no. 2-254, dated 18th

23 December, 1992, we hereby inform you that the line of deployment of our

24 forces stretches from the Drina river via tt 177 towards Mount Tosica (tt

25 330), above Rakovac village, above Podcaus village, Zuti Most, Zagoni (tt

Page 11859

1 438), Kaolin, Repovac village, along the road towards Kravica; from the

2 far end of Avdagine Njive, behind Bozici village, Mocila, Blazijevici

3 village, Djermani village, Siljkovici village, Doljani village, Krusik

4 village (tt 234), Neradja village, Rusici village, Begici village,

5 Ocenovici village, and NV (tt 445), Trugovi village, and Sopotnik village.

6 "On average, the distance between the enemy and our lines is

7 between 600 and 1.000 metres."

8 Please, my question regarding this is as follows: Were your lines

9 close to Serb lines? This is already the second half of December 1992.

10 A. Yes, they were very close.

11 Q. Did you know about any of these lines in the second half of

12 December 1992? Could you please describe the ones that you knew about.

13 A. Yes. I knew about the lines. From the top of Avdagine Njive

14 behind the village of Bozici, Mocila, Blazevici, and Djermani.

15 Q. Very well.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could you please give

17 this document an exhibit number.


19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: This document which consists of two pages ERN

21 04361573, one in the original B/C/S and the other one, corresponding

22 translation into English, is being tendered and received and marked as

23 Defence Exhibit D803 -- 804, 804.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, please. Now you've told us about the lines and you've

Page 11860

1 seen this document. I would like to ask you the following: Did any group

2 of your people that you testified about so far, either armed group or

3 group of people, was it completely encircled at any point in the second

4 half of 1992?

5 A. Yes. There was a group, I already said, with Zulfo Comic at its

6 head.

7 Q. How many civilians approximately were in that area with Zulfo

8 Comic, and could you please tell the Trial Chamber where this group

9 was?

10 A. There were about 500 civilians in that group, and they were --

11 I've already said where we were before, Velika Glogova, Vladusici, and

12 these woods.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now please show the

15 witness a new document. It's a document by the command of the Bratunac

16 Brigade from the 21st of December, 1992. It's a regular combat report

17 sent to the Drina Corps command, signed by Commander Lieutenant Colonel

18 Milan Urosevic. The document bears the number 04363051.

19 Q. I would now like to read to you the first part of this document

20 where it states: "Items number 1 and 2: No enemy activities were

21 observed during the day. Our forces, 1st Company of the 4th Infantry

22 Battalion (108 men) was formed. It assumed positions in the region of

23 Glogova where it replaced a visiting company from Banja Luka."

24 Please, my question to you is: Around the 21st of December, 1992,

25 did you know that these Serb forces were brought, the ones that are

Page 11861

1 mentioned, especially these ones from the area of Banja Luka, being

2 brought to the region of Glogova?

3 A. Yes, because we were observing the Bratunac-Glogova-Kravica road.

4 We were in the area of Glogova, and that's where we were monitoring that

5 road from.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

8 given an exhibit number, please?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document, which consists of two pages, one

10 in B/C/S and one corresponding translation into English, ERN 04363051, is

11 being tendered, received, and marked as Defence Exhibit D805.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, you told us just now that at this time there were about

14 500 civilians in Glogova together with this group of armed people.

15 Please -- and you also confirmed that you knew that these people, these

16 new Serb forces, were brought in. Did you understand or not that these

17 people were now exposed to great danger?

18 A. Yes, we knew that they were now exposed to considerable danger.

19 Q. And did Mr. Ejub Golic take any steps?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. What did he do? Could you please tell the Trial Chamber.

22 A. We were in Cizmici. We saw what was being done. On the road he

23 stood before this group of ours and he said, Should we go to help those

24 people or should they be just killed there? And we decided to go.

25 Q. Please, at that time when you decided to go, what did your

Page 11862

1 civilians look like, the people at that point in time on the 20th of

2 December, 1992? What was that group of a thousand people like who were

3 with you?

4 A. Well, they were on the brink of being crazy. There were a lot of

5 diseases, a lot of deaths. It was very -- it's very difficult to describe

6 how it was.

7 Q. And did you set off towards Glogova?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did you set out towards Glogova?

10 A. We started off for Glogova on the 23rd of December, and it was

11 after midnight. It was between midnight and 1.00 a.m., something like

12 that.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

14 show the witness a new document.

15 Q. Before you see this document, did you clash with the Serbs? And

16 when?

17 A. Yes, we clashed with them in the early morning hours on the 24th

18 of December, 1992.

19 Q. Very well.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are showing the

21 witness a document of the Bratunac Brigade command, dated the 24th of

22 December, 1992. It's a regular combat report sent by the commander

23 Lieutenant Colonel Milan Urosevic to the Drina Corps command and the

24 document bears the number 04363053. I would like to read out to you item

25 1 where it states: "During the day the enemy was actively engaged in

Page 11863












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11864

1 operations and attacks in the entire defence zone of the brigade. They

2 were successful on the Hranca village-Glogova village axis entered the

3 village of Glogova."

4 And then the last sentence in paragraph 2 states: "The air force

5 launched strikes by flying three sorties."

6 Please, is it correct on the 24th of December, 1992, you entered

7 your Muslim village where you were born, Glogova.

8 A. Yes, it's true, it's correct that we entered into the Muslim

9 village of Glogova and that we captured the lines which you mentioned.

10 Q. Is it right that on that occasion you were exposed to air strikes?

11 A. Yes, that is true.

12 Q. Was there any artillery fire?

13 A. Both artillery fire, there were air strikes, and action by the

14 infantry.

15 Q. Now I would like to ask you something. In this fighting against

16 the Serbs, was it your impression that the infantry fighting you had with

17 the Serbs, was it your impression that they were always linked artillery

18 and aircraft action as well?

19 A. Yes, that was always the case.

20 Q. And if anyone were to claim that those Serb units in the Jezestica

21 and Kravica region had nothing to do with or had any assistance from the

22 Serb army, would that be correct?

23 A. No, that would not be correct.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

25 given a Defence exhibit number, please?

Page 11865

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Vidovic. It's a document

2 which consists of three pages, first page of which with ERN number

3 04363053 consists of one page only. The other two being the corresponding

4 translation into English. It's being tendered, received, and marked as

5 Defence Exhibit D806.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Just to clarify for the record with respect to

9 the last question by the Defence counsel of whether or not the Serbs had

10 any assistance. Could we at least have a determined time when this

11 assistance was supposed to be provided. Are we assuming that it's

12 December 22nd, which is the period the witness is referring to, or some

13 other time period? And this is just for clarification.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic, if you wish to have the witness

15 clarify that; otherwise, it will be asked on cross-examination.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, that's fine, Your Honour.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not insisting that you do. I mean, it's up to

19 you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will do it gladly,

21 gladly.

22 Q. Witness, please, I asked you, not Serbs, but I said Serbs from

23 Kravica and Jezestica. Did you have the impression in this fighting that

24 you described so far, particularly the fighting in December 1992 that you

25 testified about from the 23rd of December until early January, let's say

Page 11866

1 until the 7th of January, 1993, did you have the impression that Serb

2 units, which you said came from Jezestica and Kravica, were receiving

3 artillery and air force help?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show

7 the witness document, a new document.

8 Your Honours, this is a document by the Bratunac Brigade command

9 dated 28th of December, 1992, sent to the Main Staff of the VRS and the

10 Drina Corps command. The document bears the number 04363058.

11 Q. Witness, please, could you look at the beginning of the document.

12 I'm going to read a part of the document to you which states: "The enemy:

13 During the day the enemy brought in fresh forces in the sector of Mocila

14 village, Bozici village, Halilovici, and other villages in the sector of

15 Glogova village, and Magasici village. We estimate that there are about

16 500 soldiers and a much larger number of civilians (about 1.000 women and

17 children) in this sector. They arrived in large numbers in the evening,"

18 and please note this in particular. "They arrived in large numbers in the

19 evening, moving freely in columns despite constant fire from our

20 artillery."

21 Please, Witness, in relation to this document I would like to ask

22 you the following: Mocila, Halilovici, Magasici, Glogova, are these

23 villages where Muslims lived before that cleansing that you described

24 before?

25 A. Yes, Muslims lived in these villages before.

Page 11867

1 Q. There is a remark here. "We estimate that there are about 500

2 fighters there."

3 What is this about? How many people were there? Were there

4 fighters, or what is this? What is this about?

5 A. These were our people from Glogova.

6 Q. When you say "people," what do you mean, men, women?

7 A. I mean men, able-bodied men, those registered as able-bodied men.

8 There were about 500 such men, 400, 500. I don't know the exact number.

9 Q. And did all of them have weapons?

10 A. No, they did not.

11 Q. How many of you had weapons?

12 A. Between 100 and 150.

13 Q. Very well. It's said that there were about 1.000 women and

14 children with you. Are these the civilians that you are talking about all

15 this time?

16 A. Yes. These are the civilians that were moving from Cizmici to

17 Glogova.

18 Q. Very well. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber if it's

19 possible that what it says in this document was really happening,

20 that "the number of civilians is increasing and they're moving freely in

21 columns despite constant fire from our artillery."

22 Could you please explain what was actually happening?

23 A. It was the case that the civilians were exposed to heavy shelling

24 and they were moving in a column. Some of them got killed. A shell would

25 land in the middle of the column and then the others would just walk over

Page 11868

1 the dead. They would just leave them behind in order to continue.

2 Q. Is it possible that they were going so peacefully?

3 A. They had to do it. There was no other choice, starvation,

4 sickness.

5 Q. What was the psychological -- the mental state of those people?

6 A. Well, you can imagine how it was when you're walking over a dead

7 or a wounded person and you cannot help them, you have to continue. You

8 can imagine how it was.

9 Q. I'm going to read out to you a part of paragraph 2 in this

10 document where it says: "Our forces: During the day we initiated the

11 operation of blocking and clearing the terrain of the enemy as follows: A

12 unit of the Krajina Battalion operated along the axis of

13 Bratunac-Repovac-Pajici village and by 1600 hours reached the Pajici-Drmna

14 line. The unit did not have any losses but the enemy had a large number

15 of men killed. One company, the 1st Infantry Battalion, PB, reinforced

16 with men from Bratunac and Srebrenica was supposed to attack along the

17 Bandera (tt 682) - Halilovic village axis and began the attack on

18 Halilovici village in the morning."

19 Witness, I would like to ask you the following that on that day

20 you were attacked by units from the Repovac-Pajici-Drmna direction?

21 A. Yes, that is correct, we were attacked.

22 Q. Did you know about the existence of the Krajina men in that area,

23 in this fighting?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And were you attacked from the direction of Bandera?

Page 11869

1 A. Yes, we were attacked from the direction of Bandera towards the

2 direction of Halilovici, from the direction of Kravica, which was close.

3 Kravica and Halilovici are close.

4 Q. Now I'm going to quote to you the second section of this paragraph

5 which describes the state in the Kravica Battalion. It states: "The

6 morale in the 3rd Infantry Battalion, PB Kravica, is very low. A large

7 number of soldiers have fled and they were not attacked during the day and

8 but for the police detachment from Bijeljina, 52 soldiers, they would all

9 have fled. The total strength with the police forces is about 352

10 soldiers. Most soldiers have taken refuge in houses and are holding their

11 positions, thus allowing the enemy to move freely."

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's collection, are not holding their

13 positions.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "Thus allowing the enemy to move

15 freely."

16 Q. Did you know that there was this battalion in that area?

17 A. Yes, we knew that there were a lot of soldiers there.

18 Q. Did you hear about the police from Bijeljina and the Krajina men?

19 A. Yes, and we also heard about the special police from Bijeljina and

20 we had also heard about the Krajisniks and we also heard about some men

21 from Zenica, too.

22 Q. I would like to read another paragraph from this document. It

23 states -- this is the third section from the bottom.

24 "This attitude towards combat can have no reason at all. They

25 have a lot of support from the artillery, KAG and BrAG, and the units

Page 11870

1 which are in the Bratunac territory as well as artillery from Serbia along

2 the Drina valley. Only one of their soldiers was killed in combat in

3 three days and one wounded while about 30 enemy soldiers were killed by

4 the aviation, artillery, and the infantry fire."

5 Please, did you know that the people from Kravica, these

6 formations that you said were from Kravica, had this artillery support

7 cited in this document as KAG and BrAG?

8 A. Yes, we did know about that because they used that artillery

9 against us every day.

10 Q. At the beginning of your testimony you said that you had gone

11 through certain military training before and after the war. Do you know

12 what this KAG and BrAG stand for?

13 A. KAG is corps artillery group and BRAG means brigade artillery

14 group.

15 Q. So you did know that these -- actually, where was this artillery

16 firing from?

17 A. From Jezestica and Kravica.

18 Q. And is it correct what it says in this document, that they had the

19 support also from artillery in Serbia?

20 A. Yes, yes. We were also fired at from Serbia.

21 Q. Do you know from which areas?

22 A. I think it was the Nemici [phoen] sector and that's right across

23 the bridge. There is a bridge which crosses from Bratunac into Ljubovija

24 and I think that that area is called Nemici. I'm not sure, but I think

25 so.

Page 11871

1 Q. It says in this document that the enemy had 30 casualties because

2 of the artillery and air force strikes. Is this correct?

3 A. We actually had a lot more casualties than the number here.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be

6 given an exhibit number, please, and I think that this would be a good

7 time for a break if that is also convenient for the Chamber.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Vidovic. This document

9 consists of three pages, one in B/C/S, two in the corresponding

10 translation into English. ERN is 04363058, and it is being tendered,

11 received, and marked as Defence Exhibit D807. And we will have a -- how

12 are we for time, Ms. Vidovic?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] More or less we're sticking to our

14 estimate that we gave yesterday. I think that I will perhaps need another

15 45 minutes to an hour more, but not more than that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

17 And how long do you anticipate your cross-examination to last,

18 conceding that we haven't finished the examination-in-chief as yet.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, based on Ms. Vidovic's

20 assessment of 45 more minutes, certainly the rest of the session and at

21 least one -- one part of the session tomorrow, if not a session and a

22 half.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I thank you. So we will have a

24 30-minute break. Thank you.

25 --- Recess taken at 10:27 a.m.

Page 11872

1 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m..

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's continue.

3 Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, we discussed the document of the 28th of December, 1992.

6 Concerning that I wanted to ask you the following: After the 28th of

7 December, 1992, that is after the date of the report, did your situation

8 change, meaning the people who held the lines around Glogova?

9 A. The situation grew worse.

10 Q. Do you remember exactly the moment when it happened?

11 A. Yes, it was on the 29th of December, 1992.

12 Q. Thank you. As of the 29th of December onwards, was the situation

13 grave just on that day or did it grow worse from one day to the next?

14 A. It was increasingly more difficult.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask the

16 usher to put a document in front of the witness. This is a Bratunac

17 Brigade command dated 31 December, 1992. The number is 04363060. It is a

18 combat report sent to the Drina Corps command by the Bratunac Brigade

19 command.

20 Q. I wanted to read out items 1 and 2.

21 "Until 12.00, we had not come across any strong enemy resistance.

22 Strong enemy forces are located on the road between Kravica and Bratunac

23 in a place called Glogova. Our forces have gained control of the

24 elevation point Ladja 436 and elevation point Kik by the Lomanac river.

25 Up until now the military action is going according to plan. In Bratunac

Page 11873

1 there are 225 fighters. Taking part in the action are 100 fighters of the

2 infantry company, anti-aircraft platoon, PAT, the anti-aircraft gun,

3 20-millimetre, PRAGA, BOFORS, BROVING and three tanks."

4 Witness, were you attacked by those Serb forces on the 31st of

5 December, 1992, as stated in this report?

6 A. Yes, they attacked us on the 31st of December and there were

7 thousands of shells that landed in the area where we were and they kept

8 repeating by radio communication: This is your New Year's present.

9 Q. Can you remember the direction of the attacks?

10 A. The directions came from Hranca, Kravica, Jezestica, that is from

11 all directions.

12 Q. Thank you. Were you attacked by the artillery mentioned in this

13 document -- or rather, could you explain for the Chamber what is Bofors

14 and what is a Browning?

15 A. Browning is an anti-aircraft gun and Bofors is a 20-millimetre gun

16 used for anti-air defence.

17 Q. Do you also remember that a Praga was used?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we assign an

20 exhibit number to this document, please?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic. This document, which consists of

22 two pages, one in B/C/S and the corresponding translation into English,

23 with ERN 04363060, is being tendered and received and marked as Defence

24 Exhibit D808.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put

Page 11874












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Page 11875

1 another document before the witness. This is a Drina Corps command's

2 document dated 4 January 1993. It is a combat report signed by

3 Commander Colonel Miljenko Zivanovic, corps commander, sent to the Main

4 Staff of the Republika Srpska army. The number is 04267246.

5 Q. Witness, I wanted to read out a part of item 1. It reads as

6 follows -- but before that I wanted to draw your attention to where it

7 says "enemy." The second sentence there.

8 It is considered that there are still about 200 armed enemy

9 soldiers in the area of Glogova."

10 And then further down the says: "Our forces.

11 "In the zone of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade, the units

12 actively perform actions in the Glogova area. On the 3rd of January,

13 1993, one fighter from the Bratunac Brigade was killed and two fighters

14 were wounded."

15 Witness, does this document reflect the situation in the field in

16 the area of Glogova, and according to your knowledge did the Serb units

17 perform actions in your area on the 3rd and 4th of January, 1993?

18 A. Yes, I remember that. They did launch such attacks.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please give an

21 exhibit number to this document?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic. This document, which consists of

23 one page in the original B/C/S language with ERN 04267246, and two pages

24 being the corresponding translation into English is being received, marked

25 as Defence Exhibit D809.

Page 11876

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now give the

2 witness D798 to the witness, please. It is the list of those killed in

3 Glogova as well as the list of those wounded in Glogova.

4 Q. Witness, you have already seen this document but I wanted to draw

5 your attention to some other parts of it. Please look at number 12, and

6 the name there, Veljko Nikolic, Priboj, Lopare, the date killed, the 3rd

7 of January, 1993. Please tell the Chamber do you know where Priboj and

8 Lopare is?

9 A. Priboj and Lopare is further away. I believe that Priboj is quite

10 distant.

11 Q. Is that in Serbia or in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. In Serbia.

13 Q. Thank you. We are discussing the list of those killed in Glogova.

14 Veljko Nikolic, killed on the 3rd of January, 1993. Please go to page 2

15 now. And take a look at numbers 19 to 21. These are those wounded in

16 Glogova. Take a look at these names. For all three persons it states

17 here that they were from Bijeljina, Nebojsa Kaicimovic, wounded on the 5th

18 of January, 1993, in Glogova; Jovica Kojic, son of Ziko and from

19 Bijeljina, wounded on the 3rd of January, 1993; Dario Mahmutovic from

20 Bijeljina, wounded on the 3rd of January, 1993, in Glogova. Then number

21 31 [as interpreted] and the person there, Stevo Obackic from Kravica

22 wounded on the 6th of January, 1993, in Glogova.

23 I wanted to ask you the following concerning this. Just a while

24 ago you mentioned that you heard that there were people from Bijeljina in

25 that area. You mentioned a special unit of sorts, a police unit. In your

Page 11877

1 knowledge, can you tell us where those people from Bijeljina were.

2 A. The people from Bijeljina were in the area of Kravica.

3 Q. How come you know that?

4 A. We knew about that because, as I explained several times, that we

5 had our scouts and we were lucky in that. And they obtained such

6 information and then passed them on.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we put another

9 document in front of the witness. This is D25. This is a combat report

10 by the Bratunac Brigade command dated the 4th of January, 1993, sent to

11 the Drina Corps command, signed by Lieutenant Colonel Milan Urosevic. The

12 document number is 00675533. I wanted to read out item 2: "Our forces

13 execute activity in the direction, Tatalj village; Maljevo; Vinjista;

14 Kravica; Velika Glogova village; Vladusic village; Petkovici village; and

15 Brezak; Sanici; Saonik, trig point 503 Vinjista."

16 And then the last part of item 2 reads: "Activities continue on

17 January 4, 1993, until the complete occupation of the direction

18 Bratunac-Kravica."

19 Witness, were you attacked from Serbs from the direction of

20 Kravica on that day, as stated in this document.

21 A. Yes. Apart from Kravica, all of the settlements mentioned are

22 Muslim settlements. Kravica, on the other hand, is a Serb village.

23 Q. Thank you. Did such activities continue, as is stated in the

24 document, on the 4th of January as well?

25 A. Yes. Those activities continued --

Page 11878

1 Q. Until when?

2 A. Until January 7.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness. According to your testimony, attacks were

4 continuous and ongoing. Am I correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did Ejub Golic do anything when the attacks increased at the

7 beginning of 1993?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did he do?

10 A. Ejub sent his men to all directions to ask for assistance, to

11 Bljeceva, Potocari, Suceska, Pale, in all directions to ask for help.

12 Q. Do you remember when was that, approximately?

13 A. It was on the 3rd or 4th of January, 1993.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to put

15 yet another document in front of the witness. This is a Drina Corps

16 command document dated 6th January, 1993, sent to the Main Staff of the

17 East Bosnian Corps, signed -- that is to the Main Staff of the VRS and to

18 the Eastern Bosnian Corps signed by the Drina Corps commander,

19 Colonel Milenko Zivanovic, number 04292439. I wanted to read out the

20 entire document.

21 "Based on our request approved by you, a special purpose unit

22 commanded by Mauzer was sent to help out and it was not given a deadline

23 to execute its combat task in the zone of responsibility of the 1st

24 Bratunac Brigade. Bearing in mind the overall situation in the zone of

25 responsibility of the said brigade, the unfavourable weather conditions,

Page 11879

1 to execute the task earlier and the New Year's and Christmas holidays, we

2 ask your permission for the special unit to remain in the zone of

3 responsibility of the 1st Bratunac Brigade until the execution of its

4 task, i.e., until the plan to unblock the Kravica-Bratunac road and

5 liberate the area from enemy forces is achieved."

6 Q. Witness, since you were familiar with the situation in the field,

7 can you tell us what your interpretation would be as to the implementation

8 of this task to de-block the Bratunac-Kravica road. What does it mean?

9 A. It was a general attack against the Glogova area.

10 Q. Did you hear that of the existence of a unit commanded by Mauzer

11 and having come to your area?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How did you learn of that?

14 A. The lines were close, perhaps 3 to 500 metres apart. And they

15 threatened, they said, You will now learn of Mauzer and who he is.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please give an

17 exhibit number to this document?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic. Thank you. This document which

19 consists of two pages, one in the original B/C/S with ERN 04292439 and the

20 corresponding -- the other corresponding translation into English is being

21 tendered, and received and marked as Defence Exhibit D810.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

23 distribute at document and give it to the witness. This is a special

24 brigade guard command document, strictly confidential, date 26th April

25 1993, sent to the Drina Corps command. Number 04336185. It is a combat

Page 11880

1 report for combat activities between 27 December 1992 and 22 April 1993.

2 Signed for Commander Ljubisa Savic, aka Mauzer by Stevo Pejic. I wanted

3 to quote a small portion that is relevant, first a sentence from the

4 second paragraph stating: "After having travelled for six hours around

5 5.00 p.m. on the 28th of December, 1992, we entered Bratunac."

6 Then I wanted to quote another passage.

7 "After a day of reconnaissance, our first combat task was to force

8 the enemy as far away from the communication line Bratunac-Kravica as far

9 as possible. Because the enemy had in the area of Glogova cut the

10 communication line, our task was to push the enemy back from the left side

11 of the road to Kravica. We managed to do that without greater effort. We

12 took possession of the elevation points Ladja, Kik, and Pajici. In the

13 next few days the direction of our activities is to be Glogova. We will

14 take over Drmna and Tatalj."

15 Witness, is it correct that on the 5th and 6th of January, 1993,

16 you were pushed back looking from -- looking at the left side on the road

17 to Kravica.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you participate in those -- in that fighting?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the consequence of this operation's activities?

22 A. They attacked us and pushed us back from Bratunac to the right

23 side of the road towards Velika Glogova and that area there, Vladusici,

24 Halilovici, and so on and so forth. So from the left side we were pushed

25 to the right and we were completely surrounded in that period.

Page 11881

1 Q. So starting with the 5th onwards, we were completely surrounded by

2 the Serb forces, if I understood correctly?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please give an exhibit

5 number to this document.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Vidovic. This document

7 consists of five pages in the original in Serbian Cyrillic with ERN

8 04336185 to 04336189, both numbers included, with a corresponding

9 translation into English also of five pages. It is being received and

10 marked as Defence Exhibit D811.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would ask the usher

12 to put D26 in front of the witness. This is a list of wounded on the 5th

13 of January, 1993, as well as list of wounded on the 6th of January, 1993.

14 This document comes from the archives of the Bratunac Brigade.

15 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at the list of those wounded

16 on the 5th of January, 1993, first. I'd like to draw your attention to

17 the fact that -- to the units that these people allegedly came from.

18 Nedeljko Njenjic, Krajiski Battalion, wounded in Glogova; Novak Saric,

19 Krajiski Battalion, wounded in Glogova; Nebojsa Kaicimovic, Bijeljina

20 special brigade, wounded in Glogova.

21 Stevan Maksimovic, Bijeljina special brigade; Zoran Stojanac,

22 Glogova special brigade, wounded in Glogova; Rade Petrovic, 1st Battalion,

23 Glogova. It is unclear whether this is the 1st Battalion of Glogova or

24 whether he was wounded in Glogova. And then Nikica Dragicevic, 2nd

25 Battalion in Glogova.

Page 11882

1 Please go to the next page, then. Stevo Obackic, son of Cvijane,

2 1st Brigade, wounded in Glogova. Slavko Jovanovic, son of Mladjen, 4th

3 Battalion, wounded in Glogova, also on the 6th of January."

4 In your assessment, on the 5th and the 6th of January, 1993, you

5 saw here that various units were mentioned. Did you participate in these

6 events?

7 A. Yes, I already said so.

8 Q. What was the number of soldiers in your assessment that attacked

9 you from the Serb lines, if you can guess?

10 A. Yes. In my estimate there were around 2.000 soldiers.

11 Q. Where were you attacked from by these people from Bijeljina? When

12 I say "where from," when was the -- I mean what was the direction of your

13 attack of this special brigade, and you mentioned that they were shouting

14 threats?

15 A. They attacked from the area of Kravica, Repovac, Hranca, and along

16 the entire line.

17 Q. All right. Did you see any APC movement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where did they come from?

20 A. From the direction of Bratunac and Kravica to Avdagine Njive.

21 Q. Can you tell me whose APCs those were, Serbs or Muslim?

22 A. These were Serb APCs. We never had APCs.

23 Q. Thank you. What happened on the 7th of January, that is during

24 the night between the 6th and the 7th of January, 1993, in your area?

25 Prior to that, could you tell me the following: Were you still

Page 11883

1 accompanied by those 1.000 civilians?

2 A. Yes. They were all in Glogova, encircled.

3 Q. All right. Did anything take place during that night, the night

4 of the 6th of January, 1993?

5 A. Yes. We were shelled until midnight or right after. And the

6 artillery attack was fierce.

7 Q. Very well. How did you react to that?

8 A. We reacted by deciding, since the 7th of January is Orthodox

9 Christmas, we felt that that was a time when they were weak, that they

10 were drinking, that they were weak then, and we decided to stage a

11 counter-attack.

12 Q. At that point in time, did you have any other way out or the

13 option of doing anything else or just the option of carrying out a

14 counter-attack?

15 A. No. We didn't have any other alternative. That was the only way

16 out. Either we would all be killed or we would carry out the

17 counter-attack.

18 Q. And where did Ejub Golic's group go?

19 A. Ejub Golic's group went to Brezak from the Brezak direction.

20 Q. To the Brezak area?

21 A. Yes, to the Brezak area.

22 Q. Were you in that group?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how far did you personally get to?

25 A. In the morning sometimes between 8.30 and 9.00 I was heavily

Page 11884

1 wounded at Brezak.

2 Q. And from that point of time onwards, did you take part in the

3 fighting or did you go back? What happened with you?

4 A. No. I was taken by some of my comrades, my friends. They took me

5 and transferred me to Cizmici first, and then after that to Srebrenica, to

6 the hospital where I stayed, the Srebrenica hospital, for three weeks.

7 And since the conditions there were terrible and my wound festered, the

8 food was bad, and I returned to Cizmici.

9 Q. So you did not participate in the continued fighting?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. Witness, please, I would like to ask you the following: Yesterday

12 and today in your testimony you described a series of attacks that came

13 from Jezestica and Kravica. So I would like to ask you a question in

14 relation to that. If anyone were to claim that at that time or until that

15 time and then on the 7th of January, 1992 [as interpreted], there were

16 only village guards in Jezestica and Kravica, would that be correct?

17 A. No, that would not be correct. I already said that people from

18 Bijeljina and Krajina and Zenica and Kravica and Jezestica participated in

19 that.

20 Q. The weapons that they had -- first of all, let me ask you: Do you

21 know what village guards are?

22 A. Village guards is somebody standing in front of some houses and

23 surveying or monitoring in order to prevent anybody entering the village.

24 That would be village guard.

25 Q. According to what you saw and what you yourself experienced there,

Page 11885












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11886

1 would those be village guards?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In the fighting you saw Serb fighters in that area, both alive and

4 dead. Is that true?

5 A. Yes. I saw people -- I mean, a man who was alive. I think he

6 fired a burst of fire some 20 to 30 metres away from me, and he could have

7 hit me but I had fallen. He was behind some piled timber.

8 Q. And how were these people dressed? If anyone were to claim that

9 these people were not wearing uniforms, would that be true?

10 A. No. Those people were wearing JNA uniforms and camouflage

11 uniforms.

12 Q. Now I would like to ask you something about Mr. Ejub Golic. Did

13 you in the course of January 1993, after you returned to Cizmici after you

14 were wounded, find out about a meeting that he had in Konjevic Polje? Did

15 you or did you not find out about it?

16 A. Yes, I found out about the meeting that he had in Konjevic Polje

17 there with people from Konjevic Polje, and I know that they picked him in

18 that -- at that meeting as the commander of the armed forces in Bratunac.

19 Q. According to what you know, who was part of the Bratunac armed

20 forces from January 1993 onwards?

21 A. There were people there from Konjevic Polje and Glogova who were a

22 part of that.

23 Q. And was there Ejub Golic a member of the Bratunac War Presidency?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show

Page 11887

1 the witness a new Defence exhibit. This is a document by the Tuzla canton

2 defence administration. This is from their archive. The document is by

3 the Bratunac municipality republican presidency and it's a certificate --

4 actually, it's a telegramme, Your Honours, signed by commander of the

5 armed forces Bratunac, Ejub Golic.

6 Q. Witness, I'm going to read this certificate. It states:

7 "Certificate.

8 "On the basis of which is confirmed that the Presidency of the

9 Bratunac municipality with headquarters in Bljecava made the decision that

10 the child of the killed fighter, Fatmir Imamovic, into a wing of the

11 hospital Gradina in Tuzla.

12 "Explanation:

13 "Imamovic Ibrahim was killed in military action in Glogova.

14 "This certificate is issued on the request of the mother of the

15 sick child who should be operated on in the mentioned hospital."

16 And in this regard I would like to ask you the following: Is it

17 true that the Presidency of the Bratunac municipality in the course of

18 1993 had its seat and even after demilitarisation had its seat in

19 Bljecava?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please, do you know where Mr. Imamovic, Ibrahim, was killed in

22 action in Glogova?

23 A. Yes. Ibrahim Imamovic was killed in early January. It was

24 probably the 2nd or the 3rd of January when he was killed.

25 Q. Do you remember this event being described in this document?

Page 11888

1 A. Yes, I do remember it. The child, I think, was either wounded or

2 it was sick. I can't remember exactly, and it needed medical treatment.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, Madam Registrar, let's redact from line 14

9 to line 18, and Madam Vidovic can repeat her question.

10 According to what you know, does this document confirm that from

11 January 1993 Ejub Golic was considered the commander of the Bratunac armed

12 forces?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

14 Q. Can you please reply to that question. Did you hear -- I asked

15 you, according to what you know, can you confirm that Mr. Ejub Golic from

16 January 1993 onwards was considered to be the commander of the Bratunac

17 armed forces?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we already

20 have an exhibit number.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, we don't. We don't have an exhibit number. And

22 this document which consists of two pages, one Serbo-Croat, the other one

23 in English, being the corresponding translation thereof, is being marked

24 as Defence Exhibit D812.

25 Is there a reason why Golic is spelled with L-i-c-h and Ejub and

Page 11889

1 Eljub?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's because this

3 was Teletyped and there are no diacritics for those letters, the letters

4 "C" and "DJ." But it's probably a mistake. I cannot now --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it is more than anything else. I

6 don't think it's going to change anything. So, D812, and I sign this.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed, Ms. Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

10 document P164. P164.

11 Q. Witness, I would like to draw your attention to something written

12 in Dutch on this document at the top and the bottom, and I cannot read

13 that to you. It's a document of the subregion armed forces staff, dated

14 11th of December, 1992. It states: "Order."

15 The document bears the number 037705211. I would like to read to

16 you the following.

17 "Order."

18 Allegedly Naser Oric is the one who signed this document. I'm

19 going to read it to you.

20 "Prepare all members of the armed forces assigned to the Cerska,

21 Kamenica, and Konjevic Polje units who are originally from Glogova, both

22 the armed and unarmed ones, and deploy them in the region of Glogova on 12

23 December 1992.

24 "Immediately mobilise all able-bodied manpower in the area of

25 Cerska, Kamenica, and Konjevic Polje, and assign them to the armed forces

Page 11890

1 units in these territories."

2 In relation to this document, I would like to ask you the

3 following: You in your testimony explained to us several times that you

4 lived and fought near Ejub Golic. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ever see this document before, before I showed it to you

7 here in The Hague?

8 A. No, I'd never seen it before.

9 Q. Do you see here that it states here in the signature "commander of

10 the subregion armed forces, Naser Oric." Did you ever hear of the

11 existence and activities of any kind of subregion?

12 A. No, I personally never heard of that.

13 Q. Did Mr. Ejub Golic at any point mention the subregion command as

14 his own command?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Could you please look at item 1 of this document where it

17 says: "Prepare all members of the armed forces assigned to the Cerska,

18 Kamenica, and Konjevic Polje units who are originally from Glogova."

19 First of all, you, who were born in Glogova, did anyone assign you

20 to any kind of unit in that period?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how these groups were formed.

23 A. The groups were formed because we ourselves organised these

24 groups.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you something else now. According to what you

Page 11891

1 know, were there people from Glogova in Cerska and Kamenica?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Why not?

4 A. Cerska is -- should I tell you in kilometres?

5 Q. Yes. How far is it?

6 A. Cerska is about 30 kilometres away from us, perhaps even more, but

7 let's say 30 kilometres.

8 Q. And Kamenica?

9 A. Kamenica is 50 kilometres away.

10 Q. Is it true that Kamenica is part of the Zvornik region?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the course of 1992, according to what you know, was any kind of

13 mobilisation carried out in the Glogova area?

14 A. No. There was never any mobilisation carried out.

15 Q. Throughout the whole war?

16 A. Yes, throughout the whole war.

17 Q. You from Glogova?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So are the contents of this document correct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show

23 witness document P158.

24 Q. Witness, please, look at this document. This is an alleged

25 document by the staff of the Srebrenica armed forces. It's number is

Page 11892

1 01239545, dated the 24th of December, 1992, Srebrenica. And I am now

2 going to read.

3 "Order.

4 "Glogova Independent Battalion shall be formed of conscripts from

5 the Glogova area.

6 "I hereby appoint Ejub Golic commander of the Glogova Independent

7 Battalion. This order is effective immediately and shall be effective

8 until a new order is issued."

9 Please, in the course of December 1992, did Mr. Ejub Golic have an

10 office where his command was located?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you live close to him, in the same house?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the course of 1992 until the end of 1992, according to what you

15 know, did he receive any kind of written order from anyone?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Look at this document. Did you ever see this document before I

18 explained -- before I showed it to you here in The Hague?

19 A. No. I never saw this document before.

20 Q. Please look. This is an order to form the Independent Glogova

21 Battalion on the 24th of December, 1992, and that Ejub Golic is being

22 appointed commander. Please, what was happening, could you please tell

23 the Trial Chamber again, on the 24th of December, 1992?

24 A. I already told you. On the 24th of December, 1992, we were waging

25 fierce battles in Glogova. There was heavy fighting with the Serbs in

Page 11893

1 Glogova.

2 Q. Very well. And after the 9th of May, 1993 [as interpreted],

3 wasn't Ejub Golic right from the beginning the leader and remained the

4 leader of that group of yours in Glogova?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And now I'm going to ask you something. Please, was he

7 before --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Brydensholt is pointing out that line 13

9 it says --

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 9th of May, 1992.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And that corrects the transcript. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 Q. According to what you know, did Naser Oric before the forming of

14 the 28th Division in 1995 ever name him to any post or function, according

15 to what you know?

16 A. No, he never did.

17 Q. Is this document correct, please?

18 A. No.

19 Q. To be more precise, does the document have correct contents?

20 A. No, it does not.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you now please show the

22 witness an alleged document by the Srebrenica armed forces staff. This is

23 a Prosecution document, P204. It's a small document. I am going to read

24 the whole document to you.

25 Q. "Order.

Page 11894

1 "Ejub Golic, commander of the unit in Glogova."

2 Do you see, please? Do you know notice here that it's not a

3 battalion anymore, but it's a unit in Glogova?

4 A. Yes, yes, I see.

5 Q. "Is ordered here with to make possible to the military police to

6 take over ten machine-guns seized in Kravica. The military police shall

7 use the above weapons for its needs."

8 First of all, please, did you ever see this document before I

9 showed it to you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. According to what you know, were you from Glogova asked to give

12 these ten machine-guns to the military police which was seized -- if they

13 were seized in Kravica? Do you know anything about it?

14 A. No. Nobody ever asked for those machine-guns.

15 Q. And I would like to ask you a question in relation to this. You

16 knew Mr. Ejub Golic very well. Had he received this order to return, what

17 do you think, would he have implemented it?

18 A. He would not have implemented it because we lost one or two men

19 for each rifle. One, two, or three men were killed before we could

20 capture a single rifle.

21 Q. In relation to that I would like to ask you: Are the contents of

22 this document correct?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... objecting that

24 it is a hypothetical question.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Very much, Your Honour. Thank you.

Page 11895

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Please, are the contents of this document correct?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show

7 the witness document P203. It's an alleged document by the Srebrenica

8 armed forces staff of the 23rd of January, 1993, sent to Ejub, Glogova.

9 Please look at that "Ejub, Glogova." The document is very short. I am

10 going to read it in its entirety.

11 Q. "Send immediately the missiles that are in Kravica that are with

12 you in Srebrenica, together with launchers and all accessory parts."

13 And please, I'm going to ask you: Did you ever hear of any

14 missiles being seized in Kravica and brought to Glogova?

15 A. I never heard of it and -- nor did I see any missiles at any time

16 during the war.

17 Q. So are the contents of this document correct?

18 A. No.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show

20 the witness a document. It's a document bearing the name 01837473 and the

21 document comes from the Banja Luka collection. It's Exhibit D437.

22 Q. Witness, could you look at this document thoroughly. First look

23 at the heading where it states "Army of Republic of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina, Srebrenica SB Battalion of the 7th of November, 1994," and

25 then it states: "Plan for a counter-offensive action by the SB

Page 11896












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11897

1 Battalion."

2 First of all, I'm going to ask you the following: Did you hand

3 over the weapons after the demilitarisation?

4 A. Yes. We handed over the weapons to the UNPROFOR who came.

5 Q. And you, men from Glogova, did you ever have the name Independent

6 Battalion, Srebrenica?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In the course of 1994, according to what you know, did

9 Mr. Ejub Golic make a plan for counter-offensive actions?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Was this possible?

12 A. No, it wasn't possible because it was a demilitarised zone and the

13 UNPROFOR was there.

14 Q. Please, could you now look at the signature at the end of the

15 document. You knew Ejub Golic well. What I want to ask you is that did

16 you ever see his signature?

17 A. Yes, I did see his signature.

18 Q. Is this his signature?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we have the B/C/S version on the ELMO, please,

21 so that we can see it, too? All right.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please, could we move

23 into closed session for a moment -- actually, no, to private session for a

24 moment?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move into private session for a while.

Page 11898

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Before the mentioning of the formation of the 28th Division, did

24 you ever - you, men from Glogova - have anything that could be considered

25 a proper military unit equipped, armed, and so on?

Page 11899

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are the contents of this document correct?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now I would like to ask you the following: The fighters of

5 Glogova, until 1995 were they ever placed under the Srebrenica command of

6 Naser Oric?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And then in the course of 1995, were there any attempts to do

9 this?

10 A. Yes, there were such attempts.

11 Q. And how did these attempts end?

12 A. These people of ours from Glogova did not want to accept anyone as

13 their komandir or commandant, commander.

14 Q. Except whom?

15 A. Except Ejub Golic.

16 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show

18 the witness Exhibit -- Defence Exhibit P80.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: How -- is it D80.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] P80.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not a Defence Exhibit, it's a Prosecution

22 Exhibit?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no. I apologise, Your Honour, I

24 am a bit tired.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic. Any time you want to stop, if you

Page 11900

1 want a break, we'll have a break.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No need for that. I won't take much

3 more time.

4 Q. Witness, please take a look at this document. This is an alleged

5 document from the Srebrenica armed forces staff dated 19th September 1993.

6 It says: "Breakdown of the formation structure of Srebrenica armed forces

7 during the past period."

8 Please go to page 5 in B/C/S. I wanted to quote item 3, page 5,

9 where it says: "3rd formation structure."

10 It states here: "As of half of December 1992 until today the

11 following units have been formed as part of the OS Srebrenica."

12 Under item 3 it states: "Glogova Independent Battalion with its

13 seat in Glogova, commander Ejub Golic, from its founding on the 24th of

14 December, 1992, 322 conscripts, five companies."

15 Please take a look at the names of the company commanders.

16 "First Company seat in Glogova, commander Azmir Golic;

17 "Second company, Huso Music;" then

18 "Sadik Omerovic;" and then

19 "Hajro Kadric;" and then

20 "Semsa Salkanovic."

21 Would you agree with me there's no mention of your name in this

22 document although you were mentioned in the previous one?

23 A. Yes, I agree.

24 Q. I wanted to ask you yet again, on the 24th of December, 1992, was

25 a battalion formed in Glogova with 322 armed men?

Page 11901

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did Azmir Golic in your group was any sort of commander?

3 A. No, he was not a commander of any group let alone a company.

4 Q. Hajro Kadric was he any sort of a commander?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Semsa Salkanovic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. To ask you the following, you, people of Glogova, before the

9 demilitarisation did you have any sort of record as for the manning

10 strength of your groups?

11 A. No. We never had any records. We didn't even have paper. We

12 didn't have food or clothing, let alone paper.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to give

14 another document to the witness. This is a Prosecution Exhibit P93.

15 Please go to page 13.

16 Your Honours, in English that is page 9 on top of -- on the top of

17 page 9.

18 Q. It says here "an annex to the guide of the Army of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina."

20 It states here: "Glogova Independent Battalion, commander of the

21 battalion from the 14th of December, 1992, to 10 January 1994, Ejub Golic.

22 Deputy commander from December 14, 1992, to 27 January, 1994, Redzo

23 Junizovic."

24 Witness, you explained us the meaning of the term "battalion"

25 before, so I won't persist on that. But I wanted to ask you the

Page 11902

1 following: Was Ejub Golic's deputy commander between December 14, 1992,

2 and January 27, 1994, was it Mr. Redzo Junizovic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Can you tell us why not?

5 A. Redzo Junizovic was killed on the 2nd of January or the 3rd of

6 January in Glogova.

7 Q. What year?

8 A. 1993.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, usher, give another document

11 to the witness. This is an exhibit, D742, list of those killed and

12 missing from Glogova.

13 Q. Witness, go to page that begins with 195.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are no pages

15 marked on this document, unfortunately, but this page begins with "195."

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Number 221 and the name there -- but first I wanted to tell you

19 that the columns here are last name, first name, sex, father's name, date

20 of birth, occupation, and the date of disappearance or death. Number 221

21 Huso Junuzovic, son of Redzo. The date when he went missing or was killed

22 was the 4th of January, 1993, in Glogova. Is that the person you said was

23 killed on the 2nd or the 3rd of January in Glogova?

24 A. Yes, this is the person.

25 Q. I wanted to ask you the following concerning that. Did you find

Page 11903

1 Huso Junuzovic's body and did you bury it?

2 A. Yes, the very same day.

3 Q. Therefore, the contents of this document, are they correct as when

4 it says that he was Ejub Golic's deputy from December 14, 1992, until

5 January 27, 1994?

6 A. No.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may have a

8 clarification for the transcript. It says in the transcript Junuzovic,

9 Huso, son of Redzo, but his name is actually Redzo Junuzovic, son of Huso;

10 so the other way around.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Please keep this document with you. We will need it some more. I

14 have P93 in mind.

15 To put another question. You said that the contents of this

16 document are not correct?

17 A. Yes, they are not correct.

18 Q. Did you ever hear of any person from Glogova having received a

19 written commendation from Naser Oric?

20 A. No, I never heard of such a thing.

21 Q. Did you ever receive a written commendation by Naser Oric?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever receive the award of the Golden Lily?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever hear that -- if you were ever nominated for the

Page 11904

1 award?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever hear of Naser Oric nominating Ejub Golic for the

4 award?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did Ejub Golic ever receive the Golden Lily award?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Please retain this document.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would kindly ask the usher to

10 give P458 to the witness.

11 Q. Witness, please go to page 32.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 22 in

13 English. So 32 in Bosnian, 22 in English.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just give me a moment, please.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Did you find that part?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On the right side it says Meho Comic, son of Saban from Glogova.

19 It says "was led through by Mirza." And then the next item: "Then I went

20 to Sefket Dzozic," [phoen] and then below "I sold my rifle," and then

21 below, "I do not have a rifle at this moment."

22 I wanted to ask you the following: Did you know Meho Comic?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Where was he in December 1992, in your knowledge?

25 A. He was in Cizmici with me and with my group.

Page 11905

1 Q. Was he somebody who fought for his people, a fighter?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was he a good fighter?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was he an honest person?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you -- do you have any information as to the sale of his

8 rifle?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Therefore, is the document correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Please go to the next page, that is page 31, my apologies. So the

13 page before that.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In English, Your Honours, that's

15 page 22.

16 Q. This is the same date, the 23rd of December, 1993.

17 "Zulfo Comic, son of Saban, born the 21st of February, 1967,

18 between 19 April 1992, fought at Pale." And he said: "I was there until

19 a month ago."

20 And then under that: "For the past one month I have been in

21 Srebrenica because of accommodation and food and brought with me a rifle

22 AP-74273. The rifle is with my cousin Zulfo Comic on the lines."

23 Did you know Zulfo Comic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was that?

Page 11906

1 A. We attended school together.

2 Q. Is that the same person you mentioned as heading the large group

3 in Glogova?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The contents of this document, are they correct that in December

6 1993 in the -- during the fighting he was in Srebrenica?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Please tell the Chamber, did he survive the fighting in Glogova?

9 A. No. He was killed at the beginning, perhaps between the 1st and

10 the 4th of January.

11 Q. When you say "at the beginning," what do you mean?

12 A. At the beginning of January 1993.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel and witness please pause

14 between question and answer, thank you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I will repeat the question. Was he killed in Srebrenica or during

17 the fighting in Glogova?

18 A. Zulfo was killed in Glogova.

19 Q. In December of 1993, did he spend his time in Srebrenica or was he

20 fighting in Velika Glogova?

21 A. You mean 1992 or 1993?

22 Q. December of 1992 and the fighting you described.

23 A. He was in Glogova.

24 Q. How do you know that he was in Glogova?

25 A. As I said --

Page 11907












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11908

1 Q. Did you see him?

2 A. Yes, I saw him in Glogova and we attended school together. I knew

3 him well.

4 Q. You said he didn't survive the fighting in Glogova?

5 A. No, he was killed.

6 Q. Witness, I believe you have D742 in front of you, that was the

7 list of those who went missing and killed in Glogova?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Page 2 in Bosnian, number 52, and the name there. Zulfo Comic,

10 son of Saban, killed on the 2nd of January, 1993, in Glogova. Is that the

11 Zulfo Comic you testified about and is his father's name Saban?

12 A. Yes. And he was Meho Comic's brother.

13 Q. Thank you for the clarification.

14 MR. JONES: Your Honours, just before my colleague finishes, it's

15 slightly belated interpretation issue, but we had to check something in

16 the previous transcripts because it might be important. And it's simply

17 this: When P203 was considered, in Bosnian you have a word, "raketa,"

18 which was translated as "missiles" in the transcript, page 59, line 16,

19 and also in the English version.

20 Just so the evidence of the witness can be understood in its

21 entirety, I've previously used the word "rockets" as corresponding to

22 raketa and it's in the testimony of the 12th of September, I think it's

23 pages 7 to 8 or lines 7 to 8. In any event, there's a reference to

24 rockets and in order for this document to be understood in the context of

25 that testimony we would submit that "rockets" is a better translation than

Page 11909

1 "missile." That's simply that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

4 questions. Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic.

6 Ms. Richardson, do you want to start now or do you want a break

7 now?

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour --

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We have ten minutes before the break.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: It's up to you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Very well. So we have a 30-minute break. Thank

13 you.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m..

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So Ms. Richardson will -- for the Prosecution will

17 now start her cross-examination of you, and then we will continue and

18 finish tomorrow.

19 Ms. Richardson.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson:

22 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Joanne Richardson. As

23 Your Honour pointed out, I'm a member of the Prosecution. I will be

24 asking you a series of questions, most of which are -- will be to elicit

25 and to explain further some of the testimony that you've already given

Page 11910

1 here before the Tribunal already.

2 I'd first like to start with asking you about your own

3 professional background, and by that I mean I'd like to -- for you to tell

4 us about your -- the years that you spent in the military and if, perhaps,

5 you could begin in May of 1992 up until the time that you were retired.

6 So my first question to you is: Is it correct that the first time

7 that you were actively involved in any type of combat action was in May of

8 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I should also ask about your training with the JNA. I believe

11 you served your mandatory service with the JNA. Could you tell us a

12 little bit about what it was that you did for that period of time.

13 A. I was in the so-called ABH branch which is nuclear, biological,

14 chemical weapons, and I worked as a decontaminator.

15 Q. And I take it that part of your training included training on the

16 use of various forms of weaponry?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You were not trained at all in the use of weapons or taught about

19 the different kinds of weapons that exist in an organised army?

20 A. Yes. I was trained in using some infantry weapons, but we dealt

21 mainly with the chemical weapons.

22 Q. Okay. As part of that training as well, other than the aspect of

23 the chemical weapons, were you also trained in surveying the different

24 areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina or wherever it was that you received your

25 training?

Page 11911

1 A. Yes. The second part of my term, if you have the military term in

2 mind, I attended a training within the anti-sabotage platoon.

3 Q. All right. Let's clarify that for a moment. When you say "the

4 second term," what period of time are you referring to?

5 A. I left in March of 1986 to join the former JNA in -- with the

6 branch I mentioned. I underwent the ABH training and the second part

7 included training as part of the anti-sabotage platoon.

8 Q. And as part of that platoon, I take it that you were trained on

9 the use of weapons -- and when you say you -- you were trained as part of

10 this anti-sabotage unit, perhaps you can just tell us a little bit about

11 what type of training you received in this unit so it's clear.

12 A. First of all, that part where I served my term is a hilly terrain

13 and people would be sent to a certain hill, and then we had to detect

14 them, find where they were, and neutralise the target. Well, of course we

15 didn't use live ammunition but exercise ammunition.

16 Q. And how long did this type of training last?

17 A. I believe around three months.

18 Q. And after you completed the training -- was that the only type of

19 training you received? When you said the second part, is that -- were you

20 only trained on anti-sabotage activities or were you trained in addition

21 to that?

22 A. So I explained the first part, the ABH training, and then just

23 before the end of my term I underwent the other part of the training.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, you also testified that you became -- you

25 continued in the service of the armed forces following the fall of

Page 11912

1 Srebrenica. Could you tell us prior to the fall of Srebrenica what

2 positions you held.

3 A. I was just an ordinary person.

4 Q. Well, were you part of a particular platoon or unit?

5 A. No. I was a member of the group I mentioned.

6 Q. And after the fall of Srebrenica, what position did you hold in

7 the Federation army?

8 A. Also a regular soldier.

9 Q. And did you retire as a regular soldier?

10 A. I said I was wounded and then retired.

11 Q. And you were never the -- you never headed a company or

12 specialised in any type of military specialisation? Did you specialise in

13 any way?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because this is not clear in my mind.

16 He said he was wounded and then he retired. He's told us already earlier

17 on during the examination-in-chief this morning that on the 7th of

18 January, if I am correct, at about 8.00 to 9.00 in the morning, he was --

19 the word used in the transcript is "heavily wounded."

20 Is this the only time you were wounded after which you retired?

21 Because you seem to be combining your retirement with the wounds that you

22 sustained, and I think you need to explain this because -- when did you

23 retire, to start with? When did you retire?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I retired at the beginning of 1997.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And when you said that you were wounded

Page 11913

1 and then retired, were you wounded between 1992, when you were wounded on

2 the 7th of January, and 1997, when you retired, were you wounded again?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was wounded in January 1993.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can even tell you the date.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: 7th January. You've told us already. But that

7 didn't stop you from joining the Federation army after the fall of

8 Srebrenica. Is that correct?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I stayed for a brief period,

10 for a year, with that army. And this was in order to receive salary.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yeah, I can understand why -- I can

12 imagine, but we needed to clear -- to clarify this.

13 Yes, my apologies to you for having --

14 MS. RICHARDSON: I appreciate it, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: -- interrupted you, but I needed clarification.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine.

17 Q. During the time you served in the military - when I say "military"

18 I'm talking about the period of time from 1992 to the time that you

19 retired - did you receive any kind of commendation or recognition or

20 award?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson -- Ms. Vidovic?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said he was

23 in the army, but rather that he belonged to a certain group. He didn't

24 mention any army during the war.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He did -- I'm sorry to disagree with you,

Page 11914

1 Ms. Richardson -- Ms. Vidovic. He did say after the fall of Srebrenica he

2 joined the Federation army as an ordinary soldier. That's how I

3 understood it to be.

4 MR. JONES: Yes, but she --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Then he retired -- obviously in order to be able to

6 get a salary and a pension maybe, and then he retired in 1997.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase -- break --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take that your question spreads throughout the

9 entire period.

10 Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was precise in my

12 objection. I said "during the war" and that doesn't -- that isn't

13 reflected in the transcript. I said that he never said that he belonged

14 to an army during the war. I wasn't talking about after the war; that was

15 the essence of my objection, and it seems that it was omitted from the

16 transcript. But that's what I said.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question has got nothing to do with the war.

18 The question was: "During the time you served in the military - when I

19 say 'military,' I'm talking about the period of time from 1992 to the time

20 that you retired - did you receive any kind of commendation or recognition

21 or award?"

22 So forget about group or not group -- military is even in inverted

23 commas in the transcript. You've made your point and of course that will

24 be taken into consideration, but it's -- the question is clear enough to

25 the witness.

Page 11915

1 MR. JONES: With respect, Your Honour, I think the objection is

2 very clear. The question saying from 1992 onwards when you served in the

3 military implies that this witness served in the military --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but it's not treated like that. I mean, he

5 can understand because he knows what he did and your contention throughout

6 is that his testimony was that he was in a group and not in a platoon or a

7 battalion, as he's stated a few minutes ago.

8 MR. JONES: Not in the military.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

10 Anyway, it's -- throughout the period 1992 to 1997, when you

11 retired from the BiH army which you had joined about a year earlier, did

12 you receive any -- please, what are you interested in, Ms. Richardson,

13 commendation, medals, I don't know, honours, or whatever --

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Io, Your Honour, that's the question --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the case is not going to be decided on how

16 many medals he may or he may not have received. Yes, any commendation or

17 award?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that question was also put to

20 him before -- in a way limited by Ms. Vidovic. But anyway let's proceed.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. --

23 A. If I may clarify.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the period that I was in the

Page 11916

1 military. When Srebrenica fell, some units were formed in Zivinice and I

2 joined then for the sake of the salary, otherwise I had no other source of

3 income.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I can understand that. I mean, it's -- it's

5 perfectly understandable. Don't worry about it.

6 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. So you stated that you -- you also joined -- you joined in order

9 to get a pension because you were disabled as a result of being injured in

10 December of -- in January of 1993. Is that correct?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't say it; I said it. He said "in order to

12 receive a salary."

13 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I added in my comments also possibly also to be able

15 to get a pension.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: All right --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But he never said it.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Let me rephrase the question, having Your Honour

19 clarify the position.

20 Q. Are you receiving a pension from the army?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the pension that you're receiving is a result of being a

23 soldier that was wounded?

24 A. No. This is disability compensation of sorts because I was

25 wounded. It is about 40 convertible marks in Bosnia.

Page 11917

1 Q. And the disability compensation that you're receiving, is it a

2 direct result of your being injured in 1993?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'd like to talk to you about your -- your brothers and I'd like

5 to ask you about --

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps we can go into private

7 session at this time just for a moment.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go -- I appreciate that, Ms. Richardson.

9 Let's go into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11918












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11919

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Madam.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

15 Q. You mentioned that in the beginning, in May of 1992, that there

16 were four groups formed. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And of these groups, could you tell us if -- well, let's take them

19 group by group. How many men all together made up the four groups?

20 A. I don't know the exact number of people. I know that there were

21 four groups, but I cannot really specifically tell you how many people

22 were in each group. I know that in the group that I was -- actually, that

23 the group that I was in was the largest group.

24 Q. And how many people -- how many men were in that group?

25 A. Well, it's like this: People were killed every day. They were

Page 11920

1 either killed or wounded, and that's how the numbers changed. You never

2 knew exactly if it was a hundred or more or less. People were getting

3 killed looking for weapons and also they were constantly changing.

4 Q. So just to clarify, at any given point in time the group could

5 consist -- one group - let's talk about your group - could consist of a

6 hundred men or more or a hundred men or less. Would that be accurate?

7 A. I said -- well, I just mentioned an example. The group that was

8 with us, I don't know the exact number because people changed, as I said,

9 every day. Somebody was killed, somebody was wounded, some new people

10 arrived, so we didn't really have any record of how many people there

11 were.

12 Q. So if I were to say there were 500 people in one group, would you

13 agree with that number?

14 A. No.

15 Q. 200?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. We're back down to 150. Is that -- does that sound vaguely

18 in the ballpark of how many men would be in a group over a period of time,

19 taken into consideration the wounded and the persons who were killed?

20 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you the exact number. We didn't

21 write it down, we didn't count the people. People would join us. I

22 really cannot tell you exactly how many there were. We simply were not

23 counting those people.

24 Q. You mentioned that there were at least 25 rifles in the group in

25 May of 1992. Is that correct?

Page 11921

1 A. No, I didn't mention that.

2 Q. All right. How many weapons did you have in the group in May of

3 1992?

4 A. I said that there were about ten pieces of weapons, and there were

5 also some that were home-made, the Kuburas that I mentioned.

6 Q. You also stated that a number of the men or the men from your

7 village were hunters. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And as hunters, they would own rifles?

10 A. I said that on the 27th they confiscated our weapons, the part of

11 Velika Glogova and Vladusici, but the other one, well, the Serbs took the

12 weapons from us.

13 Q. Did they take the majority of weapons from you, from your village

14 in Glogova?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And as hunters, I take it that the men from -- were you also a

17 hunter, sir?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What about the other members of your family, your brothers, were

20 they hunters?

21 A. One of my brothers was a hunter.

22 Q. And I take it, as hunters, the men from your village would be

23 familiar with the terrain, not only the terrain in Glogova but the other

24 villages and the surrounding area?

25 A. Well, I really couldn't comment on who was familiar with what kind

Page 11922

1 of terrain. They probably knew the terrain around Glogova, but I cannot

2 really say about what they knew about other places. I couldn't say that

3 they were familiar with it or that they were not.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What would this hunting be of -- hunting of what?

5 Hunting of birds? Rabbits? Wild boar? What? In that area, what would

6 one hunt for?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were wild boars, animals

8 mostly, deer, game.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, because that --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Animals, rabbits.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That explains many things when it comes

12 to knowledge of the terrain, Ms. Richardson.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Of course, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 Q. Now, you also testified that in addition to the groups that your

15 brothers served in, one of which was led by your brother and we know the

16 name so we won't go over that again, but could you tell us whether or not

17 these groups were known by a particular name? The four groups, did they

18 have names how -- the way in which you referred to each other?

19 A. No.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11923

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 The men from the four groups that you just testified about, where

5 were they from? Were they from Glogova and other areas?

6 A. People were in Glogova from Hranca, Suha, and other places from

7 which they managed to flee to Glogova.

8 Q. Did the men from Hranca also tell you that they had to turn over

9 their weapons, that the people in the village turned over their weapons?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You talked about the fact as well that you were -- I'll rephrase

12 the question.

13 Let's just stick for a moment on your brother.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: And perhaps, Your Honour, we can go into private

15 session for this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11924











11 Page 11924-11929 redacted. Private session.















Page 11930

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 MS. RICHARDSON: This book is entitled "Naser Oric, Srebrenica

11 testifies an accused genocide of Bosniak -- east Bosniaks -- Bosniaks in

12 East Bosnian, Central Drina region April 1992 to September 1992."

13 And I will be reading from --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We've got seven minutes left, Ms. Richardson.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So you can regulate exactly when --

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. I'll probably have--

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop here. No, we stop, even if you want

19 to go a little bit beyond, this is why I'm telling you.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. Thank you.

21 Q. Mr. -- Sir, I would like you to look at page 48 of the B/C/S. It

22 is page 25 of the English. And as you're looking at the B/C/S, I want

23 you --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 25 of the English version, please.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: It's in Sanction, Your Honour.

Page 11931

1 Q. I'll be reading from the last paragraph of that section, and

2 Mr. -- Sir, if you would look at the end of page 48, I will be reading

3 from a paragraph that begins: "The worst genocide occurred in Glogova."

4 Do you see that paragraph?

5 A. Just let me find it for a second, please. Page 48, is it?

6 Q. It's on 49 I'm just told. I think it's on the next page.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you find it? Did you find it? It's a

8 paragraph --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, it's page 50.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Oh, thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: 49 -- is it on page 50?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: If it's on page 50, thank you.

13 Q. Now, did you --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I think Ms. Vidovic does not

16 agree.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot find it.

18 Please, could the Prosecutor try to tell us exactly what page it's on

19 finally. Is it page 50?

20 MS. RICHARDSON: We're trying to ascertain that as we speak,

21 Madam Vidovic. On the English it's page 25 and on the B/C/S --

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I found it, I found it.


24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I found it on page 50. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's proceed now. Let's go back on

Page 11932

1 the screen to have the English text because that's what we need. U-huh.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.

3 Q. I'll be reading towards the end of that paragraph. The sentence

4 I'll be reading from it begins: "Of the 60 people chosen for

5 liquidation."

6 Okay. Now, do you see the name -- let me just try to help you

7 find it, sir. If you see the name Mustafa Rizvanovic, do you see that

8 name towards probably -- let's count the lines. About 12 or 13 lines

9 down. Can you find the name Rizvanovic?

10 A. No, I cannot.

11 Q. Do you see the name Talovic or Delic?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, let's --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Because now we have time to read it ourselves. So

15 let's have on Sanction the B/C/S version.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And we highlight the parts that you need to refer

18 the witness.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Very well, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness will look at the screen instead of

21 the paper that he has in front of him.

22 So could you zoom in that paragraph, please. Okay. And could you

23 now mark -- all right. So towards the end, three lines before the bottom

24 of that page you see at the end Mustafa, and then the next line is

25 Rizvanovic. And then the sentence that Madam Richardson wanted to read

Page 11933

1 from --

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- about the 60 chosen.


5 JUDGE AGIUS: "Tom prilikom." Can you follow me now?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. I will read from this portion and if you can follow in the B/C/S,

9 I would appreciate it.

10 "Of the 60 people chosen for liquidation that day, Musan Talovic

11 and Seco Delic escaped certain death. The most dramatic moment of that

12 horrible day was that Muharem Ibisevic stepped between his son, Muho, and

13 Mustafa, embraced them, and they bravely faced death together. Later the

14 villagers buried them together in one grave with father's arms still

15 around his sons. Serbs from the neighbouring village" -- well, I'll stop

16 there.

17 Sir, could you tell us, having read that portion of this book if

18 that's broadly accurate, of what occurred, that was told to you?

19 A. Mustafa Rizvanovic is a different man. Ibisevic Mustafa again is

20 another man. These are two different persons.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. And as for this Tosic it says Talovic here, not Tosic.

23 Q. But --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: What Ms. Richardson is interested in is about this

25 Muharem Ibisevic and his two children story -- event. And what she wants

Page 11934

1 to know is whether what you have read here is broadly an accurate

2 description of what you yourself had been told by whoever gave you

3 information? If I did not interpret your question correctly, please --

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, no, indeed --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- then correct me.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: That is the exact characterisation of my

7 question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this different from what you were told or do you

9 see a resemblance?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's different here. It says

11 here "on that occasion about 60 persons were liquidated. The death

12 planned for them was evaded by Musan Talovic and Seco Delic."


14 Q. Okay, let's stop there.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think -- yes, yes --

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is what it's

17 about, and I can see that this is something that's confusing the witness

18 because it confused me as well. The translation is different. In the

19 English version it says that -- just one moment -- that all -- 60 people

20 chosen for liquidation that day, some people were killed. In the Bosnian

21 version it says something else. On that occasion, about 60 persons were

22 liquidated, and this is why the witness cannot understand exactly what

23 it's all about. This sentence is also different. "The planned death was

24 evaded by," so this is a little different in the B/C/S and the English.

25 From the beginning of this case, I have been asking the Prosecution to

Page 11935

1 check the translations.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we can -- I can take a different

3 approach to this.

4 Q. Mr. --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but if the translation of that particular part

6 of the book is not correct, we need to know it.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: What I suggest is that we stop here for today, you

9 check the translation, and you come back to the witness with your question

10 again tomorrow.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: All right, Your Honour, excellent suggestion.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise this will be prolonged and we will be here

13 another 15 minutes. All right? Is that agreeable to you?

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, most agreeable, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 We are going to stop here. We are going to send you back to your

17 hotel. We will continue and finish tomorrow. In the meantime, between

18 today and tomorrow, you are not to communicate with anyone on the subject

19 matter of your testimony. Of course, you're free to ring up your family

20 but not to discuss these events. All right? Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of

23 October, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.