Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12779

1 Thursday, 20 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning to you, Madam Registrar. Could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the Case

8 Number IT-03-68, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam, and good morning to you.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

16 my learned friends of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

17 for the Prosecution. I'm here together with co-counsel,

18 Ms. Patricia Sellers and Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio, and our case manager,

19 Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good

21 morning to you and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

24 morning to my learned friends and colleagues. I am Vasvija Vidovic, and

25 together with Mr. John Jones I appear for Naser Oric. We have with us our

Page 12780

1 legal assistant Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our CaseMap manager,

2 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good morning to you

4 and your team.

5 Now, how are we going to go about this. I take it you had not

6 actually finished because I cut you halfway or whichever part of the way

7 it was. So I would suppose that you should continue, unless you want to

8 hear any additional information that Mr. Di Fazio said he would be coming

9 forward with this morning. It's up to you. I mean --

10 MR. JONES: Yes, I think --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: My suggestion to you would be to hear what he has to

12 say in addition to what he said yesterday, and of course you have all the

13 time you require to recapitulate on what you submitted yesterday and

14 conclude.

15 MR. JONES: It's probably best to proceed that way because we

16 have --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I think, but ...

18 MR. JONES: We've had more documents disclosed to us on this

19 subject and we might say, in terms of this whole issue, it's reaching the

20 stage, I think, where at least we feel that it might be better to finish

21 with this witness because there's no meaningful way that I can examine in

22 chief or re-examine on these documents which we're receiving even last

23 night and perhaps more will emerge. At this point we're increasingly

24 thinking that it's best to finish with this witness and then to look at

25 this issue later. We have another couple of preliminaries but as far as

Page 12781

1 this is concerned we're happy to hear from Mr. Di Fazio and then respond.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So is there an agreement that we will leave it until

3 the end after we've finished with the testimony of this witness?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, as far as I'm concerned I'm in Your Honours'

5 hands on that. I don't mind.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I think it's a more practical approach --

7 MR. JONES: Yes.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: -- because I have got ever interest to see if this

10 witness goes first. If he has got an invalid or handicapped mother, I

11 think we can't keep him here.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if that's the case, if Your Honours please,

13 I'll excuse myself and tend to --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, but make yourself -- keep yourself

15 available on short notice.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll be available at short notice.


18 MR. DI FAZIO: And I imagine it will be later -- Ms. Sellers might

19 be able to give us a vague idea of how long she'll be.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And we hope that this will be the last time that we

22 have an incident like this.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: The only other matter is whether or not the

24 examination-in-chief will be complete notwithstanding anything that's in

25 the documents. Are we correct in making that assumption or not?

Page 12782

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, if you want to volunteer information on

2 that.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, well, it's simply this: We reserve our position

4 in terms of prejudice caused by not having these documents and our

5 position really is that since we've already obviously proofing with the

6 witness several days ago, that there is no meaningful way that we can make

7 use of the documents we're receiving now. So that's why I'm -- I would

8 conclude my examination-in-chief, as I've already done, but we reserve our

9 position that the prejudice, even with regards to this witness, never mind

10 other witnesses, remains with this disclosure of these documents because

11 we can't make use of them on short notice. That's our position.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: That's fair enough.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And in that context, I can assure you, Mr. Jones,

14 that when we come down with our decision we will address that in the most

15 comprehensive manner.

16 MR. JONES: May I raise another issue.


18 MR. JONES: It's simply this: That we've been notified that the

19 Prosecution intends to use an exhibit, P98.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I saw the list this morning but, to be honest with

21 you, I had my secretary digging up these documents in my room and --

22 MR. JONES: Yes, I simply mention it now because in the interest

23 of finishing expeditiously with this witness I have to say that for our

24 part we can't see the possible relevance of that video with this witness

25 and we certainly would maintain that nothing in my examination-in-chief

Page 12783

1 gives rise to cross-examination on that document. And I mention it

2 because if the Prosecution does wish to use that document, we'll have to

3 have the witness out, we'll have to have arguments about it because we're

4 certainly not going to just concede that they can use that.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have to refresh our memory as to the part that

6 the Prosecution -- apart from that video that the Prosecution wants to

7 refer to and that will have to be done in the absence of the witness, of

8 course.

9 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't recall from memory even what video this is.

11 MS. SELLERS: Well, Your Honour, I could explain what video it is

12 and certainly within the contents [sic] of the direct examination I

13 believe that it has become pertinent from evidence that's been elicited on

14 direct examination.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can Mr. Di Fazio leave in the meantime?

16 Mr. Di Fazio, you can go and continue your searches.

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, the video concerns prisoners that were

18 held in Srebrenica.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Uh-huh.

20 MS. SELLERS: Simply, it's a video that has been shown before.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but how does it tie up with the

22 examination-in-chief?

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not saying that every question on

25 cross-examination necessarily has to be tied up with the

Page 12784

1 examination-in-chief because the relevant Rule itself allows for more than

2 that. But since this matter has been raised by Mr. Jones and he is

3 claiming that it has got nothing to do with his direct and it is -- he is

4 going to object to the -- to its use, perhaps it's the case of your

5 explaining why you want to make use of it.

6 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour. The Defence elicited from

7 Mr. Alic his opinion on atrocities that occurred with prisoners of war.

8 They also elicited from Mr. Alic what did he believe should be done to

9 persons who had committed such atrocities and implication of justice for

10 the victim, direct questions, direct subjects that were brought up by

11 Mr. Jones on direct examination, and I intend to just to review that area.

12 I believe Mr. Alic is more than capable of giving his opinion on the

13 similar situation.

14 Now, I am quite surprised, as a matter of fact, to see that

15 evidence that has been submitted, that has been deemed relevant and

16 probative within the context of this trial is now being objected to

17 because of a witness who has been presented. The Trial Chamber has seen

18 this video, has certainly felt that it was relevant for the purposes

19 presented and relevant to the counts within this document, and it is

20 within this context that I intend to use it, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, do you want to react to that?

22 MR. JONES: Well, yes, Your Honour, as I suspected the reasoning

23 is weak to the point of being nonexistent. Firstly, for the last point

24 Miss Sellers seems to be saying that, provided a document is an exhibit

25 it's relevant for all purposes with all witnesses in any examination.

Page 12785

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's --

2 MR. JONES: That's obviously --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think she -- I don't think really she meant

4 it that way.

5 MR. JONES: Well, that is what she said.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably that way, yeah, but it may be understood

7 that way for sure, I agree with you.

8 MR. JONES: Yes. Of course we have to look at this witness, his

9 examination-in-chief.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a legal heresy.

11 MR. JONES: Yes. And then as far as -- I really -- I hesitate to

12 say this, but I really consider the Prosecution is trying to make -- is

13 going to make a point that should there be justice where people have been

14 mistreated, and it really comes down to something as trite as that when

15 obviously Your Honours are not going to disagree with that proposition.

16 Much more importantly, specifically, we -- I didn't ask this witness's

17 opinion as an expert. He's not an expert, he's not here to give his

18 opinion. The issue was: In the area of Fakovici were Serb, Serb

19 volunteers, killing with impunity. And the point about impunity is that

20 if there's no punishment it means that it can be widespread, and if it's

21 widespread, killing of Muslims in the Fakovici area, it's a dangerous

22 situation, and therefore Fakovici becomes a target, a military-justified

23 target. That's a very specific purpose for which I was asking the

24 question. I wasn't making a point about, Are Serbs are getting away with

25 it? And now Miss Sellers is going to make the point, Well, shouldn't

Page 12786

1 there be justice in the case of these people as well? That's just one

2 point. I have a further couple of points to make in this regard.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's conclude on this one. Do you wish to

4 submit --

5 MR. JONES: I haven't quite finished Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- on this point.

7 MR. JONES: On this point.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I'm sorry. I apologise to you,

9 Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: This witness is talking about Jagodnja and Joseva,

11 talking about his area, and we're talking about someone committing crimes

12 in that area. This is a prison in Srebrenica, it's got obviously nothing

13 to do with this witness. He wasn't talking about a prison in Srebrenica,

14 he wasn't talking about Srebrenica in 1992, which is what's concerned with

15 in this video. And moreover, and we can -- if need be, I think we'll have

16 to go into this. We can look at the evidence which has been given in

17 relation to that video, which is in fact that -- and I'll quote from the

18 transcript. It's Nedeljko Radic, Friday, 14th of January. When I

19 cross-examined him about this video I established with him that actually

20 the beatings which occurred after they'd left the prison and after they'd

21 last seen or allegedly seen -- or been seen by our client, were very

22 severe and, in fact, I'll quote:

23 "And the beatings on the 16th of Sarac and Zoran were pretty

24 severe, weren't they, from what you could tell.

25 "Yes.

Page 12787

1 "Weren't those beatings in fact worse than any beatings they'd

2 received prior when they were detained in the SUP.

3 "Yes, of course."

4 Now, this video is showing people with marks on their face which

5 on the evidence which has been given were sustained -- a great part of it

6 were sustained after they'd -- allegedly after they had last been seen by

7 our client. So, are we willing to -- are Your Honours really going to

8 accept that for this witness, who is in Jagodnja and Joseva in 1992, it's

9 relevant testimony for him to be shown a video of prisoners from not --

10 early 1993 and to establish with that the proposition that people should

11 be punished for crimes. It comes to: That's the only point the

12 Prosecution wants to make. And the danger -- the reason I react,

13 Your Honour, is I don't think this trial should be hijacked to show videos

14 of people with bruised faces to try and make some point, to try and

15 impress Your Honours emotionally so that you'll the, I don't know, be

16 turned against our client. That's totally inappropriate and it's -- well,

17 I certainly think the Prosecution should be above that and I certainly

18 think the Trial Chamber should not allow that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Sellers.

20 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I certainly can agree with the

21 Defence that the Prosecution is above that, the showing of lurid videos

22 for the purpose of trying to make Your Honours not undertake the

23 professional responsibility. Let there be no misunderstanding about that

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me assure you we have a much thicker skin than

25 you think.

Page 12788

1 MR. JONES: So what's the relevance then? That's the question.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll put to you a question. Obviously we will go

4 out, leave the courtroom, for a couple of minutes to decide on this, the

5 three of us, but my question is this: You want to elicit an answer, which

6 you have already described, sort of, the nature of which you have already

7 described, from the witness. Can't you put the question which would have

8 the same effect of eliciting an answer from the witness, without the need

9 of showing the video?

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I mean --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, if you put to the witness the proposition:

12 If what happened to Muslims happened to Serbs, I -- you invert the

13 position, you put the question. I don't think you need to necessarily

14 show him the video.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if I could state two things preliminary

16 to Defence's argument. First of all, factual basis that this occurred in

17 1992 during the time period that the witness is referring to, the crimes

18 that were committed were committed not only in Srebrenica but within armed

19 conflict in which we're saying the subordinates of Mr. Oric participated

20 and -- and within the SUP, and in addition with Mr. Oric's subordinates

21 outside of a jail cell of the SUP. So let's talk about in terms of the

22 factual background. The other is that --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: About which he has not testified.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, he has testified about attacks in 1992

25 in this region, he has testified about going to Srebrenica in 1993. I am

Page 12789

1 not trying to say that he was either present in the SUP. I just want to

2 clarify factually so I can get to the more important which Your Honour has

3 posited. Second, factually, I believe that that's an issue that the

4 Defence could have likewise just asked Mr. Alic: Do you think that people

5 who have committed crimes that were described as killing of prisoners of

6 war or people in reconnaissance, should they meet justice, that was done

7 after reading a document and talked about snakes going around decapitated

8 heads. If we're talking about simplicity and just wanting to elicit a

9 simple issue of justice it was illustrated by the Defence in quite a

10 different manner.

11 Now, Your Honour, in abundance -- an abundance of respect for this

12 Trial Chamber and of understanding that the Trial Chamber has seen

13 evidence and understands it, and in certainly no way to elicit from

14 Mr. Alic anything other than the essence of those questions that were

15 germane to the one part of the direct examination, I am more than willing

16 to either reduce the video to one or two still shots so that he can see

17 that we are comparing situations in terms of abuse that might be within a

18 similar realm. I would contend that the Defence, when they feel that a

19 point must be illustrated by graphic material, the Prosecution has never

20 objected to the graphic material when it has been shown to be relevant,

21 whether they be autopsies or whether they be anything in relationship to

22 the Defence's case.

23 I must state also that this Trial Chamber has allowed the

24 Prosecution, knowing when it's relevant on a limited basis, to also see

25 such materials. When it is pertinent to the question and to the

Page 12790












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12791

1 indictment, we are very grateful for the Trial Chambers and for the

2 Defence's allowing that it's relative and probative evidence. Now,

3 because the Prosecution has understood that Your Honours do feel that the

4 question in and of itself, the theme that first arose in the Defence's

5 direct examination is relevant and probative and can be asked, could be

6 asked, without showing a film, possibly a still shot, the Prosecution is

7 more than willing to abide by any decision of Your Honours to put forward

8 the question, see what answer is elicited by Mr. Alic, and if within your

9 graces to show either a part or a still of a video. That certainly seems

10 to be within the understanding of the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

12 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

14 MR. JONES: Yes. I think firstly the Prosecution is proceeding

15 from a complete misunderstanding of what my question was about. I wasn't

16 saying: Should people be punished for war crimes, and obviously this

17 witness isn't here as a legal expert or a moral expert or philosophical

18 expert who we need his evidence whether the crime should be punished.

19 That's why I say it's so ridiculous. We're not asking him, Do you think

20 crimes should be punished? So my point is in the document where they

21 were these lurid stories, the person who gave the statements was saying

22 that actually you could kill as much as you like and get away with it. I

23 wasn't raising that to say, Oh, is that morally wrong, is that legally

24 wrong, is there a philosophical issue there. My point is that, if this

25 person was saying he could kill as much as he'd like, then that means

Page 12792

1 killing was widespread in the area and that goes to the relevant issues

2 which I mentioned, very specific, relevant issues in Fakovici in that time

3 period.

4 Now, the Prosecution has a frightening, broad-brush approach with

5 the area. I mean, Srebrenica is in one municipality, as I hope we know by

6 now; we're talking about Bratunac municipality. The Prosecution would

7 just merge it all. It's all the same area, it's all the same thing. We

8 need to be precise and specific about dates and times and places. But

9 fundamentally, Your Honour, that was my point. The Prosecution's point is

10 not: Was there impunity on the Bosniak's side, which perhaps is, and I

11 don't know if it's the relevance, not part of their case, but they want to

12 elicit from someone with primary education to tell the Trial Chamber, Do

13 you think crimes should be punished. It's ludicrous. And, in fact,

14 that's why, Your Honour, I really do suspect that the Prosecution wants to

15 get a bloody image on a screen -- I don't know, maybe there's too much

16 publicity going to the Saddam Husein trial and they think they need a bit

17 more in this trial.

18 MS. SELLERS: Objection, Your Honour, for any characterisation of

19 the Prosecution in what I would now say are basically unprofessional

20 terms.

21 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I really -- it's because I can't

22 imagine any reason why the Prosecution want to get a bloody image.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, I think --

24 MR. JONES: Your Honour, may I say one last thing. The

25 Prosecution say, Well, we've never objected to lurid images of autopsies.

Page 12793

1 Well, the last one was in closed session, private session when we showed

2 an autopsy. So fine, if the Prosecution are true to that, if they're not

3 seeking publicity or anything else, and if we really must see these images

4 let's see them in private session.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we have no objection to private

7 session.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, but the whole -- the whole issue is -- you are

9 always in a different position than the Defence, Ms. Sellers, the

10 Prosecution's what I mean. And there's definitely a difference between

11 decapitated civilians or soldiers or fighters being captured and

12 decapitated and others that are beaten up, or tortured, or whatever. I

13 mean, it's still a crime, but certainly what we heard about yesterday, and

14 I'm not saying it's true or not true, I mean it's -- that's beside the

15 point at this stage. Certainly represents something which is more serious

16 than what you wanted to show the witness.

17 I think ultimately the whole issue is the following. Are you

18 aware that such crimes were also committed by Muslims on Serbs? And are

19 you aware of any disciplinary or any other kind of action that was taken

20 against persons who were possibly responsible for these. And you can

21 leave it at that. At the end of the day, I mean, what's going to change

22 if we see an extra video which we have seen already. We haven't seen the

23 decapitated bodies that were mentioned yesterday, but between -- if --

24 again, because I'm -- don't, please, take me as affirming that what was

25 stated yesterday is being taken by the Trial Chamber as proven, but for

Page 12794

1 argument's sake let's take what was written there -- what was stated by

2 that gentleman in his interviews with that newspaper. It certainly

3 represents something much, much more tragic and much more serious than

4 the -- what we saw on that video, and I don't think you need to show the

5 video, too.

6 But anyway, we'll discuss outside and come back to you with --

7 because I'm just speaking my own opinion and -- which might change as

8 soon as I hear what my colleagues have to state on the matter. But I

9 think you can still cover the territory without the need of going into

10 other videos.

11 Mr. Jones, you said you also had some other issues to raise this

12 morning.

13 MR. JONES: Well, I think the others can probably wait until the

14 end of the day. There's one housekeeping issue in a way which is we have

15 problems finding the section of the interview which the Prosecution --

16 sorry, it's a separate issue altogether. When we receive exhibit lists we

17 are having difficult locating both the relevant part of the transcripts

18 and the video portion. We sent an e-mail to the Prosecution last night.

19 Hopefully we'll resolve that. In the meantime, if we -- if I re-examine

20 on the interview, I may need to just read the transcript since that's an

21 exhibit I trust that there's not a -- that there's no objection to that

22 because -- I can explain later if need be, but it's very difficult to find

23 the -- where the transcript matches to the video.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

25 MR. JONES: And there's another one concerning a motion in the

Page 12795

1 case of Drago Nikolic. But I need to mention that before the day is

2 through as well. You may be aware of a motion.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I am aware of it.

4 MR. JONES: We need to -- well, we have a position on that and I

5 want to make Your Honours aware of it.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I imagine -- in fact, one of my staff alerted me to

7 that possibility, which I was aware of in any case.

8 MR. JONES: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I think about this one, the Drago

10 Nikolic, rather than stating it here, I would rather have you put it in

11 writing and formalise it because we have a motion. So if it's formalised

12 it's much better for us.

13 MR. JONES: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It will enable us --

15 MR. JONES: Just to alert you that we will be filing a motion -- a

16 response.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It was to be expected. I mean ...

18 MR. JONES: Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I can imagine why. So can we bring in the witness

20 now? Are there any other issues that you would like to raise?

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if I would just say from the last --

22 not the last issue of pleading but the issue of the video, if Your Honours

23 will decide that during the break, I will not by any means be, if

24 allowed --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I can.

Page 12796

1 MS. SELLERS: -- to use it during the first session.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think --

3 MS. SELLERS: So just to say that in terms of --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I can --

5 MS. SELLERS: -- the witness could come in.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we will do it this way. While Madam Usher

7 goes to fetch the witness, we can go out and discuss it. It's not going

8 to take us much time.

9 --- Break taken at 9.30 a.m.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 --- On resuming at 9.37 a.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So the position, Ms. Sellers, is as follows, that we

13 consider that for the time being you should restrict yourself to asking

14 the basic questions. I'm speak cryptically a little bit --

15 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: -- for the time being and I'm sure you understand.

17 I think that you should limit yourself initially to the question as to

18 what and to what extent, if at all, he is aware of facts that you have in

19 mind. And you will then make use of that document only if you have a

20 completely negative answer and only if you think that it is useful to use

21 that document with the witness, who ultimately doesn't know who these

22 persons are. Can only look at pictures. So -- but anyway, the approach

23 that we are taking is that this could be handled by simple questions. I

24 think what Mr. Jones said with regard to questions of impunity and not

25 impunity doesn't really arise. It is a question of mere facts, what is we

Page 12797

1 are of. At the end of the day, anything beyond that, it's useless to try

2 and elicit any kind of answer from the witness.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I completely understand your ruling and

4 also due to the discretionary nature of the way that we're discussing it

5 now, one response I would have would probably be best made maybe prior to

6 the beginning of the next session.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

8 MS. SELLER: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And as we approach -- as we approach the issue as

10 well. All right.

11 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning to you, Mr. Alic. Again, my

13 apologies to you for keeping you waiting but it happens every day that we

14 have got procedural matters that we need to discuss. So I hope you had

15 time to rest. Today we will be making a humongous effort to finish with

16 your testimony so that you can go back home.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, and

18 thank you very much.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You are now going to be cross-examined by

20 Ms. Sellers. I suggest to you that you try and keep your answers as

21 concise and to the point as possible so that you would at the end help

22 yourself, too, making it possible to finish in time by the end of business

23 today. Otherwise, if you give lengthy answers you probably end up here

24 tomorrow.

25 Yes, Ms. Sellers.

Page 12798

1 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Sellers:

5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Alic, and I, too, would like to say thank you

6 very much for your patience. And I do --

7 A. Good morning, Ms. Sellers.

8 Q. I do hope to finish with your testimony today. I will be asking

9 questions that in the majority will seek to clarify some of the evidence

10 that you've already given to the Trial Chamber. Some of the questions can

11 simply be dealt with as either a "yes" or "no" or "I don't know" answer

12 and the others might call for a brief explanation. Do you understand?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Let's begin.

15 Mr. Alic, to go back to your background, if I understand correctly

16 that you went to school, elementary school, in Bratunac. And --

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. Tell me where you went to elementary school, please.

19 A. The first four forms in Jagodnja and the second four forms,

20 between the fourth and eighth form, in Fakovici.

21 Q. Can you explain to me when you talk about the first four

22 forms, how old were you when you left the end of the first four

23 forms?

24 A. Sorry? How old was I --

25 Q. When you finished the first four forms.

Page 12799

1 A. The first four, at that point I was 11 years old.

2 Q. Right. And then in the second part of your education, sir,

3 in Fakovici, how old were you when you finished that part of your

4 education?

5 A. 16, around 16. 16. 11 plus 4 makes 15, actually.

6 Q. Did you study any special subjects or areas in this second part of

7 your education?

8 A. Special subjects? I'm not quite sure what you have in mind.

9 Q. I would mean subjects to study a technical area, a trade, or a

10 profession.

11 A. Yes. I did a lot of farming. I was helping out my father and my

12 brothers with the machinery and whatever chores needed doing.

13 Q. Did you do your JNA service after you completed your education?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In what year did you do your JNA service?

16 A. 1989, that's when I began. I was back in 1990, December 1990.

17 Q. And did you do your JNA service in the Bratunac area, or did you

18 go to another part of the former Yugoslavia?

19 A. No. Not the Bratunac area. No barracks there. It was in the

20 surroundings of Belgrade, a place called Pancevo.

21 Q. And did you acquire any special skills when you were in the JNA?

22 A. My specialty in the JNA was anti-air defence. Those were multiple

23 anti-aircraft guns, whole rocket systems that were deployed in case of

24 need. That was positioned where I was, in the same barracks.

25 Q. Did you also learn during your JNA service how to activate or

Page 12800

1 deactivate land-mines?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Is that something -- is that a skill that you acquired after

4 leaving the JNA service?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Mr. Alic, you testified once about deactivating a mine. Was that

7 the first time that you did that or had you learned how to deactivate

8 mines during the summer of 1992?

9 A. In my statement, that was the first time that I deactivated this

10 mine. Those were the circumstances; I had no choice but to do it. If

11 there's a drowning man, he's likely to be clutching at straws, isn't he?

12 Likewise, I just had to do it.

13 Q. And can I ask you if your medical skills -- when you became a

14 nurse, was it also in the summer of 1992 the first time that you acquired

15 medical skills?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. I would like to concentrate right now on June 1992 and

18 July 1992. You've testified to the Trial Chamber that there was a group

19 of men with you in Jagodnja who formed what were the armed fighters.

20 Isn't that true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell me who was the oldest man of the group, what was the

23 age of the oldest man of the group?

24 A. In terms of age or in terms of something else? In terms of age, I

25 can't remember right now what the respective ages were of the people

Page 12801

1 there, but there were senior people, quite senior in fact, who wanted to

2 defend the land of their forefathers. There were people aged, for

3 example, about 50 who did guard duty who conducted reconnaissance. The

4 situation quite literally was that all of us there had no choice but to

5 defend what was ours.

6 Q. Now, can you just remind me, is this the group of 10 to 15 men, or

7 now are we talking about a larger group of men?

8 A. I said between 10 and 15 men who would go to Radijevici, that's if

9 I am not mistaken. You're asking me about the group of people that was in

10 Jagodnja in June and July, so these are two different concepts for me.

11 Q. Okay. Fine. Let's make sure that we're understanding correctly.

12 The group of men who were in Jagodnja in June and July, how many are we

13 talking about in that group who would defend their houses, who would guard

14 Jagodnja?

15 A. In June a group of people was there and they had weapons, the

16 hunting rifles that I referred to, two rifles from Jagodnja, four from

17 Joseva. And there were different contraptions, makeshift contraptions

18 that we made ourselves, as well as the three automatic rifles that had

19 been seized in the attack in early June. The remaining men had no

20 weapons. There were between 50 and 100 of those civilians, people who had

21 no choice but to join, in order to help in way they could, those people

22 who were in fact in possession of weapons. You couldn't use the same

23 rifles for everybody who had to stand guard around the clock. So we would

24 take turns and we would pass the rifles on. If someone who was actually

25 the owner of a rifle refused to give it to someone else, no one could have

Page 12802












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12803

1 ordered him to give it to someone else by saying, You have to give your

2 rifle to such-and-such a person.

3 Q. Thank you. So am I to understand that there were about 100 men

4 who were performing the guarding of Jagodnja? And this is in June of July

5 of 1992.

6 MR. JONES: He said between 50 and 100.

7 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I stand corrected.

8 Q. Between 50 and 100?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Between 50 and 100. But it

11 wasn't possible for all those people to have weapons because there were no

12 weapons to go around. Those people were involved in defence, if you see

13 my point. Someone produced food, someone worked the fields. We all had

14 to contribute in some way because we had realised that it was our duty to

15 defend our children, our families, and all our possessions. I am

16 specifying what the weapons were that happened to be at our disposal at

17 the time. That's what I'm doing.


19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you've testified that there were many

20 refugees coming into Jagodnja during June and July 1992. I would like to

21 ask you, did any of the male refugees also join this group of between 50

22 and 100 men that you've just testified -- that you've just spoken about?

23 A. Yes. There remained some men from Abdulici and Zanjevo. They had

24 their family there. They stayed with their families in order to be able

25 to have sufficient food, but later on they, too, volunteered to be

Page 12804

1 involved in all of the activities. For example, guard duty as well as

2 reconnaissance, especially in the direction of Zanjevo.

3 Q. Now, did that make the group of 50 to 100 expand, grow in number,

4 or are we always talking about 50 to 100 men during that period of June

5 and July 1992?

6 A. Yes. We're still talking about the same figure, and not too many

7 people from Zanjevo survived in the area. Those were people who had moved

8 from Jagodnja to Zanjevo before the war who owned houses, and they -- they

9 had close links with their families, a handful of such people, maybe five

10 or six.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, Ms. Sellers.

12 Is there something wrong with the transcript?

13 MR. JONES: It's a question of translation of guard duty.

14 Apparently that wasn't actually precisely what he said. It was something

15 more to do with observation duty.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to clear that up with the witness?

17 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, go ahead.


20 Q. Mr. Alic, you were talking about what the group of men, the 50 to

21 100 men did. Could you just clarify with the Trial Chamber, did they at

22 times guard Jagodnja?

23 A. Yes. From time to time those people would stand guard at night.

24 I'm saying this again. Those six or seven rifles that we had at the time,

25 it's not only the owners of those rifles that could stand guard around the

Page 12805

1 clock. The other people, too, realised that they would have to get

2 involved and stand guard by night. We had night guards. We needed 1.000

3 people just to cover the area around Jagodnja and Joseva in order to

4 observe or watch the line.

5 Q. So did you have a system where the 1.000 people could guard the

6 area, could watch the line, as you've just testified?

7 A. Can you please specify what sort of a system you have in mind.

8 Q. Yes. I'm talking about a plan. Did you at times have a certain

9 number guard one area with an amount of weapons, maybe another number

10 guard another area, and then -- on the night?

11 A. No, no. Not that sort of thing. This wasn't something that we

12 could even dream of. It wasn't imaginable. I'm talking about based on my

13 own experience, how it could have been and how it should have been, had we

14 had the manpower and the weapons that were sufficient to protect our

15 village. This was a forested area, and we were in the middle of a forest

16 surrounded by Serb villages on nearly all sides. I'm talking about

17 Jagodnja and Joseva. This is a hilly area, a mountainous area. You have

18 creeks on both sides. You see what I mean.

19 Q. So then let me make sure I'm understanding. Your evidence is that

20 you wished that you had had a thousand men, but that in reality you only

21 had 50 to 100 men who were involved in guarding the area. Is that

22 correct?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

24 MR. JONES: Yes. And that is a mischaracterisation of what he's

25 just said. His answer -- he was asked about a plan, whether there was a

Page 12806

1 place, and he said: No, no, not sort of thing, that wasn't something we

2 could dream of, it wasn't imaginable. He wasn't talking about whether he

3 would like to have had a thousand men, he said whether they would like to

4 have a system, a plan and something organised, and he categorically denied

5 that there was anything like that. It's not this question of manpower,

6 it's a question of whether there's a system.

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that goes to one issue. And the other

8 issue is that Mr. Alic said we needed 1.000 people just to cover the area

9 around Jagodnja and Joseva in order to observe.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, I think you cannot articulate -- you can

11 actually rephrase because the objection raised by Mr. Jones is perfectly

12 valid. I think you need to rephrase your question, cover the various

13 issues involved or arising out of his previous answer.

14 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Which, according to you, needs to be clarified.


17 Q. Mr. Alic what you're saying is -- are you saying that you wished

18 you'd had a thousand men to guard the area but that you didn't?

19 A. It was a dream. When we were expelled from Srebrenica and reached

20 Tuzla, when we tried to sum up the whole situation, that would have been

21 our only option of opposing the sort of force that was attacking us. I'm

22 not sure if that's a satisfactory answer for you; if not, then we can move

23 on to a different issue.

24 Q. Well, let me just ask again about how you guarded?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sellers.

Page 12807

1 Because with the system, how it operates, I'm just trying to

2 attract your attention that your client wanted to hand a paper to you.

3 Thank you.

4 MS. SELLERS: All right.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Excuse me.


7 Q. Mr. Alic, let's go back to how you did guard. Am I correct in

8 understanding that there was no plan, there was no system, in guarding the

9 village?

10 A. No, there was no plan, there was no system, nothing to suggest how

11 it should work. One stood guard where there were people who had fled

12 Joseva and the refugees who were in the forest. That's where people stood

13 guard, around those places.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, with this group of 50 to 100 men, was Asim

15 Smajlovic the leader of this group?

16 A. Asim Smajlovic, that he was the leader of that group in Jagodnja,

17 yes.

18 Q. So he was a leader of the group that you've just described of

19 between the 50 to 100 men. That's your testimony, isn't it?

20 A. 50 to 100 men, these men were unarmed. I'm saying that they only

21 assisted in night guards. The group of men that had weapons was a

22 different group at the time.

23 Q. Yes. And that's what I'm trying to understand. Was Asim

24 Smajlovic only the leader of the group of the 15 men, or was he also the

25 leader of the group of the 50 to 100 men?

Page 12808

1 A. Asim Smajlovic was the leader only of those men who had weapons,

2 those 15 men who volunteered to stand guard. The others also volunteered.

3 Those who had families in the camp, they felt duty-bound to stand guard.

4 Asim could not have ordered anyone to stand guard or not stand guard.

5 There were only about 15 men who were involved and who voluntarily wished

6 to perform some sort of tasks. There were people who went to reconnoitre

7 in the direction of Fakovici to watch the situation towards Fakovici. It

8 was very dangerous to go there, and they volunteered to do so. Asim was

9 the leader of those people.

10 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Alic, Asim was the leader of the men who had

11 weapons. Is that correct? I just want to take this step by step to make

12 sure I'm --

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And so, within these men, these 15 men with weapons, they would

15 sometimes reconnoitre or do reconnaissance or observation of places

16 outside of Jagodnja?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you, as a nurse, worked or assisted Asim Smajlovic to make

19 sure if any of these 15 men were wounded or injured in any way would

20 receive medical care. Is that correct?

21 A. In any case, in June and July, those 15 men never went in that

22 direction all together. It would be two or three of them who would go

23 with binoculars to the spots I showed on the map to observe the movements

24 of the Serb soldiers. That was the aim, to observe the movements of

25 Serb soldiers to avoid murders happening as had happened in May and early

Page 12809

1 June.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Now, were you aware of what Mr. Smajlovic

3 did with the information that was brought back by the people who were

4 observing with the binoculars? Did he pass it on to someone?

5 A. No. No. There was no one for him to pass it on to.

6 Q. Did he inform the refugees or the people within the village of the

7 information from the reconnaissance?

8 A. I didn't hear him informing the refugees in the village of that.

9 In my view, there would have been no logic in that. If he didn't tell me,

10 why would he tell a refugee? But I don't know that, really. I don't

11 believe that Asim Smajlovic informed a refugee of that. But the people

12 who were going in the direction of Fakovici, Zanjevo to get food would be

13 warned that there were large numbers of soldiers moving around in the

14 woods, that mines had been laid in the woods. So it was those people who

15 were told.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, you testified that during the summer of 1992 a man,

17 Mr. Alic, came from Srebrenica. He was originally from Abdulici, but he

18 came to your area. My question is: Were you aware of whether people in

19 Srebrenica were concerned about the -- the defence of Jagodnja?

20 A. Could you please repeat your question. It's not clear to me.

21 Q. Yes. Let me ask it in this manner. Were you aware yourself or

22 the group that you were with, with Mr. Smajlovic, were you aware that

23 people in Srebrenica were concerned, were worried, about the inhabitants

24 and the refugees in Jagodnja?

25 A. We didn't know about that, that somebody was concerned about us,

Page 12810

1 no.

2 Q. Fine.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask that the Trial Chamber and

4 Mr. Alic, Defence, watch the first Prosecution video, please.

5 MR. JONES: Which exhibit?

6 MS. SELLERS: It is P328. And the transcript -- it's the Word

7 transcript, tape 4, pages 14 through 16.

8 Q. Mr. Alic, I'm going to ask you to watch this.

9 [Videotape played]

10 "Naser ORIC: So the commanders of the various villages which make

11 up the area of Potocari didn't want to obey him, they wanted to obey me.

12 And basically everybody was doing his own thing."

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like you to stop -- I want to stop here for

14 the time being. It's difficult for us, and I would imagine it's even

15 worse for the witness, who is the person who is talking here on the video

16 referring to? Who is he referring to? Because I think we started the

17 video from a part -- from a section which does not give us an indication

18 as to who he is referring to. I mean, I can't understand who he is

19 referring to, although I can guess, having seen this video before. But

20 I'm just relying on my memory, which sometimes plays tricks on me.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, are you referring to where it

22 says --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We started from a section where obviously the

24 interviewee is referring to someone, but we have no indication as to who

25 that someone is --

Page 12811

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So if you start --


4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- just a few seconds before.

5 MS. SELLERS: Certainly we can. I can say who it is. I don't

6 believe it's necessarily relevant to this witness.

7 MR. JONES: We would object to any evidence being given about who

8 is speaking or who he is referring to. And we also -- there's no time

9 frame either. If we can play the video so we have some time frame,

10 otherwise the witness has no idea what time is being spoken of.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The time frame --

12 MR. JONES: The year, the month, otherwise how is he supposed to

13 answer.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I can give a description of what the

15 time frame is speaking about, but I thought that it would be best if the

16 content in the video --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is this: I don't know what your question

18 is going to be because I --

19 MS. SELLERS: It does not relate to the reference of that person.

20 I will tell you that now.


22 MS. SELLERS: And it's just for a sake of where we had begun, but

23 I'm more than willing to --

24 MR. JONES: Your Honour, we don't -- any description by the

25 Prosecution of the context of this -- of what we're about to see,

Page 12812

1 any description of the time frame that's being covered, it's all

2 completely contended -- contentious on our part and unless the video

3 speaks for itself as to what time frame, I would object to any witness --

4 any question being put to this witness which suggests a time frame, which

5 suggests 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, unless it's clear from the video. We

6 certainly don't want the Prosecution giving evidence.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise we would have to see the whole video,

8 Mr. Jones.

9 MR. JONES: Your Honour, that's precisely it, though. To have a

10 witness shown a chunk of a video which he has no idea what was said

11 before, what was said afterwards, and then to get him -- an answer from

12 him, we'll get completely misleading evidence from him, and so we --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't --

14 MR. JONES: -- absolutely object. Either the whole video is to be

15 shown or the Prosecution has to find some other way of dealing with it.

16 But we're certainly not going to accept that the Prosecution can say, All

17 right, in this section this is being described and this is the time

18 period, and what do you say about it, because we simply don't accept that

19 there's any specific time period, we don't accept any description the

20 Prosecution is giving. It's not for them to interpret what's being said,

21 it's for them only to play what appears to be being said.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what the question is going to be,

23 Mr. Jones. Why you seem to know? I would imagine you don't know

24 either.

25 MR. JONES: Well, already it's clear that the question is going to

Page 12813

1 be -- well, I'll wait. If the question suggests a time frame --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- I mean, I stopped the running of the

3 video because, since it started with obviously a reference to some unnamed

4 individual, I wanted to make sure that if there are going to be questions

5 on that individual that the witness hears the entire section from the

6 video. But if you're telling me that that part is irrelevant, I don't

7 know why we are starting from there.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, it was just a question of editing, and

9 I did not intend to --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go ahead and see what the question

11 is and then we'll decide accordingly.

12 [Videotape played]

13 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] So the commanders of the various

14 villages which make up the area of Potocari didn't want to obey him, they

15 only wanted to obey me and basically everybody was doing their own thing.

16 "But I managed to just convince them to solve the situation this

17 way, that I convinced them that I had to be at the central HQ in

18 Srebrenica, but that I would come to Potocari very often and see how

19 things were and how things run there.

20 "So we made a kind of improvised centre, an improvised HQ, a

21 centre there in the Domavija. And then we -- we had to get in contact

22 with some of the village -- some of the other outlying villages such as

23 Ljeskovik, that's L-j -- L-j-e-s-k-o-v-i-k, Klotjevac, K-l-o-t-j-e-v-a-c

24 Prohici, P-r-o-h-i-c-i, Skejici, S-k-e-j-i-c-i, Osatica, O-s-a-t-i-c-a,

25 and Radjenovici, R-a-d-j-e-n-o-v-i-c-i, Karacica Brdo, that's

Page 12814












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12815

1 K-a-r-a-c-i-c-a, one word, and then Brdo, B-r-d-o, Greben, G-r-e-b-e-n,

2 Karacici, another village, K-a-r-c-i-c-i, and also with the villages of

3 Osmace, which we had before, Mursalovici, that's M-u-r-s-a-l-o-v-i-c-i,

4 Gecimici, that's G-e-c-i-m-i-c-i, and then also with the villages of

5 Podkorjen, that's P-o-d-k-o-r-j-e-n, and then also with the villages of

6 Podkorjen, that's P-o-d-k-o-r-j-e-n and then Tokoljaci, T-o-k-o-l-j-a-c-i,

7 Jagodnja, that's J-a-g-o-d-n-j-a.

8 "All of these villages that we've listed were all separated, they

9 were all in their own little enclaves. So, for example, Jagodnja and

10 Joseva, this was one enclave which was completely surrounded by Chetniks.

11 And there was another enclave, Pozarovci [phoen], Podkorjen, and Miholjevo

12 [phoen] which was again one enclave surrounded by Chetniks. Osmace was

13 another enclave where also the village of Gecimici and Mursalovici were.

14 And then there were another enclave consisted of Tokoljaci, Mehmedovici,

15 and Mosici [phoen]. And yet another enclave consisting of Knezovici,

16 Karacici, and Greben. And then there was another larger enclave

17 consisting of Glodovici [phoen], Crni Vrh, Glojvici [phoen], Skelici, and

18 Osatica.

19 "We sent couriers to these villages, asking them to send us

20 someone from each of these villages to tell us how many weapons they had,

21 how many fighters they had, so that we could also organise the visits in

22 these enclaves as well.

23 "They were -- they were in the process. They had already

24 organised themselves and were in the process of cleaning out the area

25 between the various enclaves so that they would then be connected between

Page 12816

1 themselves.

2 "In the meantime, Hakija Meholjic who he sent Akif to establish

3 contact with these villages, he had the task of going to these enclaves,

4 to see what they were doing, what needed to be done, but they were very

5 often blockaded by the Chetniks. So they would hide, together with this

6 group of armed men, in the forests.

7 "That day when all of these -- that day when all of these various

8 enclaves became connected together and became one entity, a couple of the

9 representatives from these villages came, they didn't all want to come,

10 but some of them came.

11 "They had -- they had decided amongst -- they had themselves

12 decided that their commander would be Sefik Mandzic, that's S-e-f-i-k

13 M-a-n-d-z-i-c. Apart from the Biljeg Territorial Defence where the

14 commander was Akmo Tihic -- and the commander there was Ahmo Tihic, who

15 was working independently in the area from Biljeg toward Jagodnja down

16 toward Skelani. He didn't want to go into -- he didn't want to go into

17 part of the Osat Territorial Defence, because he wanted to collect all the

18 other things together and to make a Skelani Territorial Defence."


20 Q. Mr. Alic, would you confirm what was said about Jagodnja and

21 Joseva occurred, that they were surrounded, became an enclave?

22 MR. JONES: Well -- we need a time period, yes.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is the next clause I'm about to

24 say.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but, I mean --

Page 12817

1 MS. SELLERS: In 1992.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: -- you can include it in one question and say, Do you

3 confirm that any time Jagodnja and Joseva became, what time would that

4 be.

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to confirm that his

6 testify, I think Mr. Alic already testified and I'd like to know, yes,

7 does this confirm that Joseva and Jagodnja became surrounded by a Serb

8 enclave in the summer of 1992.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him --

10 MR. JONES: That's the danger of does this confirm, because as we

11 said this doesn't provide a time frame. If he -- if the witness says --

12 or he's already said it was surrounded in some other time frame and

13 doesn't confirm what's being said if it's a different time frame which has

14 been referred to. She can ask the question, Ms. Sellers, but it's not

15 confirming what was said here unless we're -- unless the time frames are

16 identical. That's the point.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think this is a storm in a teacup. Basically, it

18 can be dealt with to an ad hoc, direct question which you are entitled to

19 on cross-examination in any case.


21 Q. Mr. Alic, wasn't Jagodnja and Joseva -- excuse me, Joseva

22 surrounded by Serbs in 1992 as of May, June, and July, yes or no?

23 A. Yes. They were surrounded.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Alic, wasn't Ahmo Tihic working in the Biljeg area

25 or active in the Biljeg area in the summer of 1992?


Page 12818

1 A. I don't know what Ahmo was doing at Biljeg, but I do know that

2 there was a wood between Biljeg and Jagodnja which was not controlled by

3 either Ahmo Tihic or us. There were ambushes set up there by the Serb

4 army, and I don't remember whether Ahmo Tihic came to Jagodnja on one or

5 two occasions or not. In the area between Jagodnja and Biljeg, we hid in

6 creeks in order to get to Biljeg and it went on like this until 1993. I

7 said all that yesterday. In 1993, the Serbs cut off this corridor we

8 could use to pass through. And three of our men were killed in Ravni Hrg.

9 You can see that on the map and that can be explained.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Alic, to your knowledge wasn't Ahmo Tihic

11 defending, fighting, or acting in a military manner in that wood in Biljeg

12 in the summer of 1992?

13 A. Yes, as I said, he was at Biljeg. But from what side the Chetniks

14 or the Serb soldiers were coming, they could only have come from the

15 direction of Skelani and that part overlooking Jagodnja, the wood, they

16 could enter and act there. It means that they were attacking Ahmo at

17 Biljeg, but we stayed in Jagodnja and Joseva. You can see that on the

18 map.

19 Q. Yes. Thank you. And then I have one other question to ask in

20 relationship to this video. It speaks about Osmace. And didn't you go to

21 Osmace in the summer of 1992, when you were receiving -- when you received

22 training as a nurse?

23 A. Yes. In early June when there was the attack on Jagodnja and

24 Joseva I went in the direction of Osmace.

25 Q. And was Osmace also a community that was under attack or had been

Page 12819

1 attacked by Serbs?

2 A. Yes. When I entered the village of Murselovici, that's the first

3 village in the direction of Osmace. It's called Murselovici. I found

4 that cousin of mine there, and they explained to me how I was to proceed.

5 Not to go towards the village of Brezani from where they were firing, from

6 Jezero and those parts shells were arriving. All the windows were boarded

7 up there because of the daily shelling of Osmace and there were snipers

8 from a hill called Suljanovo Brdo [phoen] and we went through creeks in

9 the wood and it took us a long time to get there from Jagodnja.

10 Q. So we're about to come up on the break and I want to ask you very

11 quickly: Would you agree with what this video, what is being said in this

12 video, about Jagodnja and Joseva in 19 -- in summer of 1992?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to be -- I -- you need to be precise. I

14 mean, what --


16 Q. Would you agree with this video --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it says more than one thing. So go through

18 the list of the things that it says and --


20 Q. Would you agree, therefore, what this video says --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- that was -- going to be your objection.


23 Q. -- about Jagodnja and Joseva being encircled, surrounded in an

24 enclave in the summer of 1992? Yes or no, please. I'm sorry, the answer

25 wasn't recorded.

Page 12820

1 A. What.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. I don't think he got our entire

3 question or understood your question. You need to repeat it, please.

4 MS. SELLERS: Okay.

5 Q. Mr. Alic, do you -- would you say that what the video said about

6 Jagodnja and Joseva being surrounded confirms what you've testified about

7 to this Trial Chamber, yes or no?

8 A. Jagodnja and Joseva were surrounded on all sides by Serb

9 soldiers.

10 Q. Thank you. And would you also agree that what you've testified

11 about Osmace is in agreement with how the video characterises Osmace as

12 also having been isolated or surrounded?

13 A. As for Osmace, I can't say anything about that because I entered

14 Osmace from one side and I saw those beams that had been set up, or rather

15 the boards on the house windows because they were afraid of shells. But

16 whether it was surrounded on the other sides, I can't confirm that because

17 I didn't go there. I didn't go all the way around Osmace.

18 Q. Thank you for that clarity. And my last question is then: Would

19 you confirm that what this video has said in terms of Ahmo Tihic being in

20 the Biljeg region is correct?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Again --

22 MS. SELLERS: In 1992.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Here -- one moment before you answer. Because here

24 I have to draw your attention to the fact that the video does not just say

25 that Ahmo Tihic operated in the Biljeg area.

Page 12821

1 MS. SELLERS: It says several things.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but it's -- also indicates that he was

3 operating also in a particular direction also in relation to Jagodnja and

4 Joseva. So I think there are at least three things that I recollect from

5 what I saw.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think you have to ask him a specific question.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I was going to go -- expand that part

9 in the next session.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right --

11 MS. SELLERS: I wanted to see if he would recognise -- if he

12 agrees that Ahmo Tihic was operating in the Biljeg region in the summer

13 of 1992. Would you agree with that, as stated on the video? Just that

14 part.

15 MR. JONES: Well --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: In this case, let him answer first because it's an

17 innocuous --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Ahmo Tihic -- I learned

19 about Ahmo Tihic in Biljeg in late July, that he was there with his group

20 of men. What he was doing and where he was going, I really don't know and

21 in what direction he was acting.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That confirms exactly what he said -- what he

23 testified earlier on.

24 Yes, Mr. Jones.

25 MR. JONES: It seemed that it was being suggested in the video it

Page 12822

1 was being suggested that there was a time frame of 1992 and that's my

2 continuing objection. I don't want it to be suggested that the video is

3 referring to any time frame because it is not.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's have a break, a 25-minute break, starting

5 from now, please. Thank you.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.32 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's continue.

9 Ms. Sellers.

10 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because my monitor has gone black and I

12 notice that yours is black, too. Yeah, it's okay. It's come now. All

13 right. Let's continue.


15 Q. Mr. Alic, you testified that you went to the woods to where Ahmo

16 Tihic's camp was along with Asim Smajlovic in the summer of 1992. My

17 question is: When you went on those two occasions, did you know whether

18 Mr. Tihic had a commander that was superior to him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you know whether Mr. Tihic acted together with other

21 commanders in the region?

22 A. No, I didn't know.

23 Q. Do you know or did you know that summer whether Mr. Tihic ever

24 went to Srebrenica for meetings with other commanders?

25 A. I didn't know that.

Page 12823

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would like to show Mr. Alic a

2 second video, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one -- is it 329 now?

4 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, it's 329 -- I'm sorry, it's P328.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Tape 3.

6 MS. SELLERS: It's tape 3, page 15 to 16.



9 Q. Mr. Alic, please watch the video on your screen.

10 [Videotape played]

11 "Naser ORIC: [Interpretation] After I was elected to be a

12 commander, in practice I was basically the same as I had been before.

13 There was still the Territorial Defence units and I was still the

14 commander of the Territorial Defence units. And in practice I stayed a

15 soldier, as I had been before. At that meeting, we agreed that Ahmo

16 Tihic, who was also a member of the HQ, and up until then had been -- and

17 up until then, that is up until the formation of the HQ, he had been a

18 member of the Territorial Defence in Suceska. And he was born in the

19 village of Skelani, right by the bridge that goes over towards Bajina

20 Basta. And because he had been an activist in the SDA party -- before

21 the -- before the -- some police station had been formed in Skelani, the

22 Serbs created a -- sorry, the Serbs drove the local police there out and

23 formed their own municipality there. And just -- the very formation of

24 the Serbian municipality of Skelani meant that all the SDA activists in

25 the area had to leave, had to flee, and if they didn't flee, they were

Page 12824

1 captured. The Chetniks were mostly interested in Ahmo Tihic because he

2 was very active before the war in the SDA party and they considered him an

3 extremist. And then so he with his brother and some relatives there

4 together with some weapons that they had bought before the war illegally,

5 I don't know exactly how but this way or the other. Later on they fled

6 from Skelani to the Territorial Defence in Suceska."


8 Q. Mr. Alic, you testified that the Skelani municipality was created

9 in 1992. Isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you also testified that Mr. Ahmo Tihic was someone who was

12 politically active in 1992. Isn't that correct?

13 A. Ahmo Tihic had been active since 1991 when the SDA was founded,

14 yes.

15 Q. Was Ahmo Tihic known within the Skelani region as someone who was

16 an activist and someone who would defend Muslims against the Serb-created

17 municipality?

18 A. I know Ahmo Tihic as a farmer and a very wealthy man. I know that

19 he was a member of the SDA. As for the other things you've mentioned, I

20 never heard anything about him being an extremist; this is not something

21 that I'm familiar with. Once in 1991 he came to our place to get some

22 cattle, and that's when I got to know him. I hadn't known him before

23 this time. The distance between us and him was between 15 and 20

24 kilometres.

25 Q. Now, when you visited Ahmo Tihic with Asim Smajlovic in the summer

Page 12825

1 of 1992, did you notice whether he had any weapons with him in the woods?

2 A. When we were with Ahmo Tihic, Ahmo had no weapons at all. He was

3 with two other men. There were the two of us, Asim and myself, and

4 another three men from Jagodnja and Joseva. We found him in the middle of

5 the woods sitting at a table. That's something I explained yesterday.

6 But he was not carrying a weapon, not that I noticed. Perhaps he'd left

7 it behind before he met him. But certainly at the moment when we saw him,

8 he was not carrying a weapon.

9 Q. And can I ask you whether you knew whether Mr. Ahmo Tihic had

10 bought or sold weapons illegally in 1992, before the war?

11 A. I didn't know that.

12 Q. Now, yesterday, Mr. Alic, you testified that you've lived in

13 Jagodnja and in the Joseva region all your life and you knew all of the

14 people who lived there. I would like to ask you --

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. I would like to ask you: Do you know a Hasib Kurtic, Hasib

17 Kurtic?

18 A. Yes, I do know Hasib Kurtic. We're the same generation and we

19 went to school together, if we're talking about the same person because

20 there's another Hasib at Joseva. So this might be a person from a

21 different locality.

22 Q. Well, this person -- I'm asking of people who you knew who could

23 come from other Jagodnja or Joseva. I'm asking now do you know a Dzenad

24 Bektic?

25 A. Can you please repeat the name for me.

Page 12826












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12827

1 Q. Dzenad Bektic.

2 A. Dzenad, no. There's no person called Dzenad in our village, no.

3 Dzenad, that's not a name that I'm familiar with.

4 Q. Maybe in Joseva?

5 A. Dzenad in Joseva, no. There's no such name there.

6 Q. Okay. Do you know Fahrudin Avdic or did you know? I'm talking

7 about during the war.

8 A. Fahrudin Avdic, yes.

9 Q. Did you know a Ferid Bektic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And Ahmed Alic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mirzet Kurtic, Mirzet Kurtic?

14 A. Mirzet, yes. Mirzet.

15 Q. The people's name who I've read with the exception of

16 Dzezad -- Dzenad Bektic, are these people that lived in Jagodnja

17 and Joseva?

18 A. Which period are you referring to?

19 Q. I'm speaking of 1992 to 1995, let's say the period of the war.

20 A. There were many people from Jagodnja and Joseva whose houses had

21 burned down in mid-May, that period of time. And they would go to the

22 nearby villages to seek out their families. People who had gotten married

23 in one of the neighbour villages or maybe they had an aunt there, so

24 that's where people went. Specifically, some came back to our village and

25 some would go, stay for a short while, and come back again to our area,

Page 12828

1 Jagodnja and Joseva.

2 Q. Right.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, if I might for purposes of expediency,

4 as Defence counsel did yesterday, I would just refer the Trial Chamber to

5 the census under D840 to say that the names we have gone through are on

6 the census in terms of Joseva. And I hope that that will just accelerate

7 a bit of the examination.

8 Q. Mr. Alic --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a problem with that, Mr. Jones?

10 MR. JONES: Well, it's just that there was a question asked about

11 whether those people were living in Jagodnja and Joseva in 1992, and that

12 actually hasn't been answered. And so there's going to be an ambiguity.

13 The census is before the war --

14 MS. SELLERS: Might I state -- should I rephrase the question.

15 Q. Were they from that area. I believe that is what the census

16 question that was posed by Defence yesterday.

17 MR. JONES: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead along those lines.

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, I would like to ask you, when you went into the

21 Biljeg woods and you saw Mr. Ahmo Tihic, were you able to see whether they

22 had -- whether Mr. Tihic and his men had any food?

23 A. No. We didn't linger there. I don't know whether they had any

24 food or not, and they certainly didn't tell us whether they had any food

25 or not and we didn't ask. I told you the reason why Ahmo Tihic had

Page 12829

1 invited us to come to Biljeg.

2 Q. Yes, certainly?

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would like Mr. Alic now to see an

4 extremely brief video.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one is this?

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is P433. There is no transcript.

7 There is nothing -- basically --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We got notice of this this morning.

9 [Videotape played]


11 Q. Mr. Alic, I would like to ask you: Do you recognise the woman in

12 this picture? I understand that her back is to us.

13 A. No.

14 Q. And, Mr. Alic, I'm going to ask you now: Do you recognise any of

15 the people in this video.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please replay the last bit?


21 Q. Certainly.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't identify anyone.


25 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Alic, you testified that when you went --

Page 12830

1 pardon me. Did you want to say something, sir?

2 A. No, no. Please go ahead.

3 Q. You testified that when you went to the woods to see Mr. Tihic the

4 first time, that he was not wearing a uniform. Yes --

5 A. No.

6 Q. Yesterday in the video that the Defence showed you, Mr. Tihic

7 was wearing a uniform. I would like to now show you a still shot of

8 taken from the video that the Defence showed you with Mr. Tihic in a

9 uniform.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is from the same Prosecution

11 exhibit.

12 Q. Mr. Alic, you recognise --

13 A. Yes. Yes, please. Go ahead.

14 Q. Do you recognise any insignia on the uniform, any marking on the

15 uniform?

16 A. Yes, I do now. The date is right there, so it's not very clear.

17 The date is precisely in the same spot as the armband or marking, if you

18 can remove that.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There's a blue spot there with

21 a white stripe across it, a white stripe crossing the blue shape that

22 looks like a triangle. But I didn't see this when we talked to him. I

23 did not see Ahmo Tihic in uniform.


25 Q. Yes, Mr. Alic, I understand that. My question is: Now that you

Page 12831

1 do see him in uniform on the video that was shown to you yesterday, do you

2 recognise this insignia, this marking? Does this marking have any -- do

3 you know what this marking is?

4 A. This marking is something I saw in Tuzla when I came there in

5 1995, the lilies.

6 Q. And do you know who or where you would see that marking in Tuzla?

7 Could you just ...

8 A. In 1995, this sort of sign was worn by the BH army.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, if you permit, I'm not intending to

11 show or have the next item placed into evidence. It's just that I have a

12 larger photo of that and I would just like Mr. Alic to look at it. We

13 don't expect to tender it. I just want to make sure that there's no

14 confusion in his mind.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any problem with you, Mr. Jones?

17 MR. JONES: Only if we can see a copy, obviously. Thank you.

18 MS. SELLERS: Certainly. Can I ask the usher first to show this

19 to the Defence and then to Mr. Alic.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that we can proceed along these lines in

21 other words, Mr. Jones? Yes.

22 MS. SELLERS: I'm grateful to the Defence.

23 Can you place it on the ELMO so Your Honours can see it and I'll

24 just ask Mr. Alic one question.

25 Q. Mr. Alic, when you look at the image now on your screen before

Page 12832

1 you, is this the image that you saw in Tuzla in 1995?

2 A. Yes. This is what I saw in Tuzla.

3 Q. Right. And that was an image in connection with the Army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's your testimony, correct?

5 A. Yes. The BH army in Tuzla.

6 Q. Right. And this is the image that you now recognise in the still

7 shot showing Mr. Tihic? I just want to be clear.

8 A. Based on this image, it's very difficult for me to say whether

9 it's that similar. I can only see a blue shape with a white stripe across

10 it. It's difficult to say. But you must understand that people who came

11 from Tuzla to Srebrenica would bring these uniforms along. And certainly

12 it was possible for one of these to reach Ahmo Tihic. A friend gave it to

13 him or something like that. I don't think that requires too much

14 clarification. But you're asking me what I can see on his arm. I can see

15 a blue shape with a white stripe. It's that simple. Whether the lilies

16 are there or the swords, the crossed swords, is not something that I can

17 tell.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MS. SELLERS: Now, I would ask that this image be removed from the

20 ELMO. And I would like to show Mr. Alic now the next video. Again, we

21 are in the woods with Ahmo Tihic. It's just another segment of P433.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Mr. Alic, my question to you right now is: You testified that you

25 went to see Mr. Tihic in the woods on two occasions and one of those

Page 12833

1 occasions was the beginning of August. When you went to see Mr. Tihic,

2 did you see as many men in uniform in the woods with him?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

4 MR. JONES: Yes. Your Honour, I just think this is going to be

5 misleading unless we have clarification as to whether the witness -- where

6 this part of the video is concerned because there isn't a complete

7 continuity on whether this is actually --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you are right. I think the way to go about

9 it, Ms. Sellers, is to ask the witness whether he noticed any men in

10 uniform because it also depends on whether he was paying particular

11 attention to that in the first place and how many he may have noticed and

12 then you can go on your next question.

13 MS. SELLERS: You mean when he went on his visits?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. First, the witness, we must have

15 confirmation of what he was paying attention to while this video was being

16 shown.

17 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Because he may have been paying attention to other

19 things.

20 MS. SELLERS: I believe Mr. Jones wanted to have the video placed

21 in a different context. Now, we could go back to where Mr. Jones left off

22 displaying the video yesterday - would add a couple more minutes on - to

23 show how this becomes part of it. So I --

24 MR. JONES: Please.

25 MS. SELLERS: -- if I understood Mr. Jones's objection..

Page 12834

1 MR. JONES: My apologies. We could simply ask for this frame, is

2 this still Biljeg, as far as the witness knows. That's where I see it's

3 going to be misleading unless we have this witness --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's another -- that's another good point as

5 well.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, can I just, then, go back to where the

7 picture of the tent is and then from there we'll proceed again. And I

8 think that will join the two videos.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And you stop as you go along because I was paying

10 attention to uniforms and I was paying attention to other things as well,

11 but I don't know whether the witness was doing the same thing.

12 MS. SELLERS: Certainly

13 Q. Mr. Alic, do you recognise the tent that you're seeing in this

14 picture before you as having been the video that the Defence showed you

15 yesterday?

16 A. The one shown by the Defence yesterday, they showed a tent and I

17 saw that.

18 Q. Now, do you recognise this scene before you as being in the woods

19 in Biljeg where you met Mr. Tihic?

20 A. I didn't say yesterday that I met him here, in this place. I said

21 further up in the woods from here. I didn't see a tent at the time. I

22 saw it yesterday on the video, and I told you that we were all seated at a

23 makeshift table using makeshift chairs made of wood. And I'm not sure why

24 I'm being shown this image again.

25 I know exactly what I said yesterday. Asim, myself, and another

Page 12835

1 two or three persons from Jagodnja and Joseva were there and Ahmo Tihic

2 with the people I mentioned. I didn't see the tent at the time; I saw it

3 yesterday while I was being shown the footage. I've explained as well

4 that at Biljeg where we met, there were no solid buildings, houses, sheds,

5 or anything like that. Nothing of that sort.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Alic, for that clarification. I would still like

7 to run the video and just ask you a couple questions, even though we

8 understand that you saw Mr. Tihic in the woods at an earlier date. Can

9 you please just look at the images with us again.

10 [Videotape played]


12 Q. Mr. Alic, do you see the men in the video in uniform?

13 A. I see one man wearing a uniform in this image. All the other

14 people appear to be wearing civilian clothes, just plain shirts. So this

15 one person I think is wearing a uniform but not the others.

16 Q. Right.

17 MS. SELLERS: Can we continue.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 [Videotape played]


21 Q. Mr. Alic, do you see other persons now in the video wearing

22 uniforms?

23 A. Yes, just like the one before, two uniforms.

24 Q. Mr. Alic, do you note an insignia on the uniform as being similar

25 to the insignia that you testified was on the uniform of Mr. Tihic?

Page 12836

1 A. It's very difficult to see clearly. You can see the white colour

2 and the surrounding blue and the white stripe.

3 Q. Okay. We'll continue it now. Thank you.

4 [Videotape played]


6 Q. Mr. Alic, now are you able to see other men in uniforms?

7 A. I see two or three men in uniform there.

8 Q. All right. We'll continue and be finished with this video in a

9 couple of seconds.

10 [Videotape played]


12 Q. Mr. Alic, do you see what appears to be weapons on the table, on

13 the end of the table?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you testified that you were in the JNA and that you developed

16 some skills in weaponry. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, if you know,

17 what types of weapons these are.

18 A. This is a machine-gun.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. Machine-gun, that's what they call it.

21 Q. Right. Now, just my last question concerning this video is that

22 you testified earlier, yesterday, that you came to see Ahmo Tihic in the

23 woods in the beginning of August on one of the occasions. This video is

24 in August, and I believe another scene shows it's around the 14th of

25 August. Did Ahmo Tihic have those uniforms and those arms when you came

Page 12837

1 to see him? Just yes or no.

2 A. No. Ahmo Tihic didn't have these when we spoke to him. And what

3 you're showing me now, I have no idea where this is. Is this Biljeg? Is

4 this a different village? I explained clearly that Biljeg has no solid

5 buildings, buildings made of solid stuff. And here in this footage we can

6 see some solid buildings in fact, so that leads me to conclude I have no

7 idea where this is.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

9 MR. JONES: It was that that, as I said earlier, I -- there was

10 bound to be confusion without simply asking him if he knew where this

11 second part, and we saw the difference in time, where that was shot.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness is completely in control of the

13 situation. He knows exactly where he is.

14 So let's continue, Ms. Sellers, please.

15 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. Would you give me one minute,

16 please?


18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm going to move on but I might have

20 to come back to this. I just want to make sure that the witness will

21 understand the nature of my question in relationship to this video, but I

22 would let my case manager check a couple points for us.

23 Q. Mr. Alic, within the group that you participated in in Jagodnja,

24 did you ever have members of your armed group, your 10 or 15 men, carry

25 messages to other groups or other places in the area of Jagodnja?

Page 12838












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12839

1 A. No. In the area of Jagodnja? Could you please repeat your

2 question.

3 Q. Yes. Yes, Mr. Alic. In the area of Jagodnja.

4 A. We from Jagodnja didn't send any messages to anyone, nor did we

5 receive messages from anyone. Only people in search of food would arrive

6 in Jagodnja and Joseva, and from them we would learn what was happening in

7 the area.

8 Q. Mr. Alic, you testified that at least on two occasions people came

9 to Jagodnja in October 1992 and in January 1993 to ask for your help or to

10 offer you help. Isn't that correct?

11 A. Yes. That happened in January when a man arrived from Glogova

12 asking for our help.

13 Q. And on the 4th or the 5th of October, didn't another group arrive

14 in our area to help you out, to help the group from Jagodnja out?

15 A. Yes. A group arrived to help us defend ourselves from

16 Kragljivoda. That was the assistance we received.

17 Q. Now, how many people were in that group who arrived to help you

18 out?

19 A. As I explained yesterday, I was a nurse and I was in the village

20 of Hasanovici with the wounded, where in the morning of the 5th of October

21 a man arrived to fetch me. He said I was to go in the direction of

22 Prisalaca Bradva where I found a large number of civilians, and among them

23 there were some armed groups of men. I was able to see 20 to 30 men in

24 one of the groups. I didn't see any other groups. I don't know whether

25 there were others or not; I couldn't see everybody because this was all

Page 12840

1 taking place in a wood. And in a wood you can only see about 200 metres

2 ahead.

3 MS. SELLERS: I see Madam Vidovic is --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a correction in the

6 transcript. When the witness said -- mentioned Kragljivoda, he said it

7 was the first assistance they had received, whereas in the record it says

8 that was the help we received. I think it's important that the witness

9 said "this was the first help we received."

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's an important distinction. Could you

11 please put the question. We want to know exactly what he said.

12 MS. SELLERS: Certainly.

13 Q. When the men arrived from Kragljivoda, was that the first time you

14 had ever received assistance from outside?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's what you said earlier on?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Vidovic. Thank you.

19 Ms. Sellers.

20 MS. SELLERS: Right.

21 Q. Now, the person who came to assist you came to specifically

22 request that you, Mr. Alic, participate as a nurse?

23 A. Not specifically. He only asked me if I was able, and if I wanted

24 to, to go in that direction.

25 Q. Did he ask Asim Smajlovic, would he also participate?

Page 12841

1 A. I don't understand what you mean by that.

2 Q. Did Asim Smajlovic and other members of your group, were they also

3 asked to participate in activities with this person from Kragljivoda?

4 A. No. No. The man from Kragljivoda didn't arrive looking for me.

5 You must have misunderstood that. A man arrived from Joseva and he told

6 me what I just said, that is, he asked me if I wanted to go in that

7 direction in order to help the wounded. There wasn't a man coming from

8 Kragljivoda looking for a nurse in Jagodnja to take back with him.

9 Q. So where you went to help others was not in Jaglivoda -- I mean,

10 pardon me, was not in Jagodnja and was not in Kragljivoda. You went to

11 another location. The man asked you to go to a third location to help.

12 Isn't that correct?

13 A. I don't know what you're trying to say. I spoke of attacks on

14 Joseva. There were attacks on the village of Joseva on the 3rd, 4th, and

15 5th on a daily basis. They set fire to our wheat and everything I

16 explained. This group from Kragljivoda arrived to help. And men from my

17 group were in the area of Joseva. I explained that on the map. And where

18 this place, Priselaca is, that's where there was a clash and where

19 fighting continued.

20 Q. Yes. And, Mr. Alic, on the 5th of October, weren't you assisting

21 the wounded outside of Fakovici?

22 A. Yes, yes. I was assisting the wounded on the 5th of October at

23 Zanjevski creek, yes. But that happened in the morning of the 5th of

24 October at Priselaca, what I'm talking about. And I was assisting on the

25 5th of October in Zanjevski Potok. I think I described that well.

Page 12842

1 Q. Yes, you did. You described that very well. And because of that

2 we can have slightly shorter answers because your testimony was clear.

3 I'm just trying to make a couple other points of clarification. Now, did

4 the rest of Asim Smajlovic's group also go towards Fakovici on the 5th of

5 October, as you did?

6 A. I know about 10 to 15 men, including me and two other unarmed men,

7 we were going in the direction of Radijevici. And where the other group

8 was going I really don't know. That evening I returned to Jagodnja at

9 about 2.00 a.m. I think this other group of armed men -- I don't know,

10 actually, whether they stayed in Jagodnja or went looking for food.

11 Q. Did this other group of armed men have a name? Did they refer to

12 themselves as a named group?

13 A. What group are you referring to? You mean the one that came to

14 assist us or do you mean the one from our village?

15 Q. The one that came to assist you, sir.

16 A. That was the group from Kragljivoda.

17 Q. And did they call themselves a group from Kragljivoda or did they

18 call themselves by another name?

19 A. I only heard the man who came to get me from Joseva say that a

20 group of men had arrived from Kragljivoda.

21 Q. And did you know whether they had a leader, like you had a

22 leader?

23 A. And that point in time, I didn't know anything. I heard later on

24 that it was Sefik Mandic who was the leader of that group.

25 Q. Now, when you got to your location near Fakovici, did you see

Page 12843

1 other groups, groups other than your own group, from Jagodnja and Sefik

2 Mandic's group from Kragljivoda? Did you see other groups of armed men?

3 A. When I crossed that minefield I talked about and entered the

4 village of Abdulici, there was shooting, there were men there who had

5 weapons in the village of Abdulici itself. From the direction of

6 Radijevici and Radijevic Potok there was firing aimed at us. I learned

7 that one of the men there was from Zanjevo. When two men were killed, I

8 went in the direction I described. I arrived at Zanjevski Potok. I

9 didn't go any further. It's all in my statement. I only noticed a large

10 number of civilians --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop. All right. Okay. All right. He's

12 dealt with it -- with the question at the end. Because still then he had

13 not answered the question.

14 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to ask him the

15 question again.

16 Q. Did you see any other armed groups, other than your group? Sefik

17 Mandic's group? Did you see other armed groups?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer yes or no.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't see any large groups of

20 armed men, any other large groups of armed men. I didn't see any.


22 Q. Did you see any other small groups of Muslim fighters?

23 A. As I said, I saw a few men in Zanjevo, in Abdulici. And then I

24 went to Zanjevski Potok where I could see only groups of civilians, large

25 numbers of civilians, collecting wheat from the houses in Zanjevo and so

Page 12844

1 on. I didn't enter Fakovici. I said that yesterday.

2 Q. Now, I believe your testimony was that you were in Radijevici,

3 Radijevici Potok, and that is --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It is here that I don't want him to get confused.

5 Radijevici Potok, I suppose. Is that correct?

6 MS. SELLERS: Radijevici Potok

7 MR. JONES: And Zanjevski Potok.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's another. There are two Potoks that he

9 mentioned in his testimony in chief.

10 MR. JONES: I'll have to check.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, here, no, definitely he mentioned two -- two

12 Potoks. So you need to be very clear whether it's the one or the other.


14 Q. Mr. Alic, were you in Radijevici Potok when you were taking care

15 of the wounded people from Fakovici, during the Fakovici attack?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Would you please remind us again your location, where you were,

18 when you were taking care of these people, when you were outside of

19 Fakovici?

20 A. At Zanjevski Potok.

21 Q. Now, Zanjevski Potok is below the road from Fakovici on the way to

22 Abdulici. Is that correct?

23 A. It can be shown on the map. I can show you precisely where

24 Zanjevski Potok is on the map. It has -- it's a creek which has its

25 course and there is a bridge crossing it. The creek comes out of the wood

Page 12845

1 and the whole length of the creek is called Zanjevski Potok. And if it's

2 not clear to you, I can show it to you on the map.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He marked it yesterday.

4 MS. SELLERS: I think he had, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Or the day before.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, my question is more precise.

7 Q. Where you were located, could you see every house in Fakovici?

8 Where you were located in Zanjevski Potok, could you see every house in

9 Fakovici?

10 A. Not every house, but I could see 90 per cent of Fakovici. There

11 is a small bend in Fakovici, and I couldn't see that area. But there are

12 very few houses there. I could see the church, the cafes, the school, the

13 old area, the new area, and so on. I could see 90 per cent of Fakovici

14 from where I was.

15 Q. Right.

16 MS. SELLERS: I would like to have the witness shown D135,

17 please.

18 Q. Mr. Alic, I believe that this was shown to you by the Defence.

19 MS. SELLERS: And, Your Honours, I would like to draw Mr. Alic's

20 attention to the paragraph that begins with -- and it's one, two, three,

21 fourth paragraph down, "when the shooting stopped I crept behind the arms

22 depot."

23 Q. Now, further down in that paragraph it says: "However, when I got

24 to about 10 metres from the detonator, about 100 of them sprang out of

25 hiding, where they were guarding the warehouse. They grabbed me, beat me,

Page 12846

1 and dragged me to my house, which was on fire."

2 Mr. Alic, do you see where I am in the document?

3 A. No, no. I don't know where that is.

4 Q. We'll go down four paragraphs. The paragraph that begins "when

5 the shooting stopped, I crept behind the arms depot."

6 A. I don't see it.

7 Q. Okay. Fine. Now, it says -- within that paragraph it

8 says: "However, when I got to about 10 metres from the detonator, about

9 100 of them sprang out of hiding where they were guarding the warehouse.

10 They grabbed me, beat me, and dragged me to my house, which was on fire.

11 They knew who I was and they said, 'Now watch us, manager, burn your

12 house.'"

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So we need to turn the page now.

14 MS. SELLERS: Yes. In the English version. I don't know whether

15 the page is --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Now page 2. In his case it's page 1.


18 Q. Mr. Alic, my question is -- to you is that: Where you were

19 positioned outside of Fakovici, your testimony was that you didn't see any

20 houses burning. Isn't that correct?

21 A. No, I didn't see any houses burning.

22 Q. And, Mr. Alic, you've just testified, if I understand correctly,

23 that you didn't see hundreds of Muslim fighters in Fakovici?

24 A. Madam, I wasn't in Fakovici. I was at Zanjevski Potok. Zanjevski

25 Potok, as I said, is about a kilometre and a half or two kilometres away

Page 12847

1 from Fakovici. Had there been something burning, I would have seen smoke.

2 You understand?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor is

5 misinterpreting the text. Soldiers are not mentioned anywhere. It

6 says "I saw a hundred of them." It doesn't say whether they were

7 civilians or soldiers. So you cannot suggest to the witness that they

8 were soldiers. At least that's how it is in the Bosnian version.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes --

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I stand corrected. I can continue to

11 read the text where it's clarified in the statement. I wanted to take a

12 small part --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, but Ms. Vidovic is correct.

14 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

15 Q. But, Mr. Alic, your testimony is that you didn't see hundreds of

16 Muslim fighters or tens of Muslim fighters in Fakovici because you were

17 not in Fakovici. That's what I understand. Correct?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Alic, were you aware that prisoners, Serb

20 prisoners, were taken by Muslim forces in Fakovici? Just yes or no. Were

21 you aware that that occurred on that day in Fakovici?

22 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

23 Q. Do you know anyone by the name of Zulfo Tursunovic?

24 A. Yes. Yes. I've heard of Zulfo Tursunovic from the refugees who

25 came to collect food in Jagodnja, that he was from Suceska, and that he

Page 12848

1 had a group of men there.

2 Q. Have you heard of Akif Ustic?

3 A. Yes, I heard about him, too. It was the same as with Zulfo.

4 People who came to get food from us who went into the fields, they gave us

5 this information.

6 Q. And when you say it was the same as with Zulfo, does that mean

7 that you heard that he had a group of armed men -- I'm sorry, that he had

8 a group of men?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Alic, the question refers to Akif Ustic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard that Akif Ustic had a

11 group of men. I can't recall whether I was told whether these men were

12 armed or not. A lot of time has elapsed and it's hard to remember every

13 detail. It's been 12 or 13 years since then.


15 Q. Yes. Have you also heard of Hakija Meholjic?

16 A. Yes. I heard about Hakija Meholjic as well.

17 Q. And did you hear that there were also -- he also had a group of

18 armed men?

19 A. Yes. He had some kind of group of armed men. I don't know where

20 he was stationed, but that's what people said. It was rumoured, but

21 whether they were armed and how many of them, I really don't know.

22 Q. Okay. And then I would like to ask you: Did you hear of Naser

23 Oric during this time period of 1992, 1993?

24 A. Yes, I heard about Naser Oric. These same people said that he was

25 in Potocari and that he has his own group of armed men.

Page 12849

1 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like to continue reading this

2 document and then we'll be finished with it.

3 Q. Mr. Alic, I'm going to continue reading the same translation.

4 It said: "They grabbed me, beat me, and dragged me to my house

5 which was on fire. They knew who I was and they said: 'Now, watch us,

6 manager, burn your house down'" --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Alic, just to assist you, we are in the same

8 paragraph we were reading earlier on.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.


11 Q. Then, Mr. Alic, I'm just going to move down two or three sentences

12 where it says: "They thought I might be ready to kill myself and take

13 them with me. Behind me went the Turk, or call him what you will, an

14 Ustashi, Zulfo by name. I don't know where he came from. He was tall,

15 older man, dark, with a moustache, and a rather long nose. I heard them

16 call him by his surname, Tursunovic."

17 Is that a description of Zulfo Tursunovic that you would be

18 familiar with?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Ms. Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at no point in time

22 did the witness say that he knew him. He said he'd heard of him,

23 therefore --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I agree. Therefore that's why my

Page 12850












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12851

1 question is would he be familiar with that question. I don't know whether

2 he's seen Mr. Tursunovic --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Then ask him that and then the second question would

4 be legitimate.

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe that that's what I've asked

6 him.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The question as I read is as follows: Is that a

8 description of Zulfo Tursunovic that you would be familiar with?"

9 Yeah, but to be familiar with it he must have seen him -- seen him

10 before.

11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe his testimony has been that

12 he has heard people talk about Zulfo. I don't believe he's testified that

13 he himself right now has seen Zulfo. So people might have described Zulfo

14 to him. And that's why I'm asking this question.



17 Q. Mr. Alic, are you familiar with this description of Zulfo

18 Tursunovic?

19 A. No. No one ever described him to me.

20 Q. Fine?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And you never saw him in person either? You never

22 saw him in person either?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, later on in 1994 I did see him

24 in Srebrenica.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So now the question becomes appropriate. I mean,

Page 12852

1 recalling your impression of him, and when you saw him, in 1994, would

2 this be -- rather, you put the question, Ms. Sellers. I mean, once you

3 saw him in 1994, then perhaps you can answer Ms. --

4 MS. SELLERS: Right.

5 Q. When you saw him in 1994 with the description given here, agree

6 with the -- of your view of Zulfo Tursunovic? And I will just

7 repeat: "He was a tall, older man, dark, with a moustache and rather long

8 nose."

9 Is that what Zulfo Tursunovic looked like to you in 1994?

10 A. No, no, no. No, no, no. Zulfo Tursunovic looked perfectly

11 normal. He had a perfectly normal nose. I don't know about this bit

12 about the long nose or rather long nose. I'm not sure what that's

13 supposed to mean exactly.

14 Q. Well, how old was Zulfo Tursunovic when you saw him in 1994?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Two years older --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is something that I can't say.

17 Can't say.


19 Q. Did he have at that time a moustache? Was he tall? Was he, let's

20 say, over 50 years old?

21 A. I can't say exactly how old he was, but in my estimate he may have

22 been about 50, 55 perhaps. That's what I reckoned. He did wear a

23 moustache. That's all I know. When I first looked at him -- well, you

24 know, people change. The way people look changes over time. People were

25 starving, but that bit about the big nose, that part is certainly not

Page 12853

1 true. He did not have a long nose.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Alic. And, Mr. Alic, I would like

3 to ask you, did you know who was the manager of the post office in

4 Fakovici in 1992 or referred to --

5 A. No.

6 Q. I'm sorry. A person referred to as the manager from the post

7 office?

8 A. I might even know the person, but I don't know the person's first

9 or last name. I don't know the person's name.

10 Q. Could you describe the person, if you remember, to the Trial

11 Chamber.

12 A. Believe me, I just can't.

13 Q. Okay.

14 MS. SELLERS: That's fine, Your Honour. Would you just give me

15 one second to check with my case manager on the other issue.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would ask at this time if we could

18 go back to the video for a very small period. But --

19 Q. Mr. Alic, I'm going to show you the video that the Defence showed

20 you yesterday.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. Do you recognise in this video the place where you went to in the

24 woods with Mr. Smajlovic to see Ahmo Tihic?

25 A. No. This is not the same place that we were.

Page 12854

1 Q. Okay. So this was a different place then where you had visited

2 him. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, but it's a very generic image of a forest. It's very

4 difficult to say which forest this might be.

5 Q. Yes. Thank you?

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I just wanted to clarify that it was

7 neither section of the tape for which he visited. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Sellers.


10 Q. Mr. Alic, right now I would like to move toward January of 1993,

11 and yesterday you testified about your participation in an attack in

12 Jedjeska -- Jezestica.

13 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I don't agree that he characterised it as

14 an attack. He went to help in Glogova. It's a small point, but still we

15 should get it right.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

17 Yes, Ms. Sellers. You would avoid the word -- using the

18 word "attack."

19 MS. SELLERS: Yes, I will.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


22 Q. Mr. Alic, yesterday you testified that Ejub Golic or his

23 representative came to your group in Jagodnja. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes. It's correct that he sent someone over to Jagodnja.

25 Q. Do you know the name of the person that he sent over?

Page 12855

1 A. No.

2 Q. Was the person armed, carrying a weapon?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. And did he speak to you or did he speak to Asim Smajlovic?

5 A. To Asim Smajlovic, that's who he talked to. There were people

6 there in the village and he was there, too, so he sought assistance.

7 Q. Now, did Asim Smajlovic then ask the members of the group that

8 you were in whether they wanted to go, follow this man, to assist

9 Glogova?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And, Mr. Alic, I believe that you agreed to go?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, was a decision taken to leave immediately, or were you

14 allowed to say, I would leave in a week or two weeks?

15 A. No. It wasn't taken immediately. It was on the 3rd or the 4th I

16 believe. It was around the 5th, I can't remember specifically, that we

17 left for Glogova whether it was the 4th or the 5th, I can't remember.

18 Q. Did you know whether you had to be in Glogova at any specific

19 time?

20 A. No. There was no way we could predict the time that we would get

21 there. We had been told we should count on about two days travel time on

22 foot to Glogova.

23 Q. Did you know whether Glogova was expecting you to arrive at any

24 specific time?

25 A. No. I don't think they knew that we were coming.

Page 12856

1 Q. Why do you say that, Mr. Alic?

2 A. The man who came to ask for our help, those people of Glogova,

3 there was no way for them to know whether we would ever leave or whether

4 we would ever arrive. So he was travelling to us, and there was no way

5 they could have known that we had left. We could as well -- just as well

6 not have left to begin with, so they didn't know.

7 Q. Was this man carrying any form of hand-held radio or any form of

8 communication?

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. And did anyone in your group have any form of communication, such

11 as a hand-held radio, or a ham-operated radio?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So, Mr. Alic -- excuse me. So it's your testimony this man came,

14 he proposed that Asim Smajlovic's group follow him to Glogova, and you

15 decided to leave when you wanted to, you decided to take as much time as

16 you wanted to to get to Glogova. Would that be your testimony?

17 A. The man came and asked for help -- requested our help. He asked

18 for help. Was that -- he asked for help. He asked us to go. And as soon

19 as we believed we were ready to go, we set out to help those people who

20 had been jeopardised by the Serb soldiers.

21 Q. Now, as you were travelling via Bajramovici to Cizmici, did any of

22 your group decide that I want to go back home or I want to go to another

23 location, or did everyone stay together?

24 A. The group that set out stuck together all the way to Cizmici. We

25 moved together.

Page 12857

1 Q. Did you meet any other groups in the forest going in that

2 direction toward Glogova?

3 A. No. We didn't -- I didn't see anyone.

4 Q. So your testimony would be that it was just this armed group of 10

5 or 15 men that were going through the woods, guided by this man, toward

6 Glogova to help out Ejub Golic?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Now, were you carrying a weapon at that time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And if I'm correct, you have not -- or you did not carry a weapon

11 throughout the summer of 1992 up until January of 1993. Is that correct?

12 A. No. No. I was not carrying a weapon.

13 Q. Did you ever carry a weapon? Let me rephrase that because how

14 it's said in English could be misleading. Did you ever carry a weapon as

15 a member of Asim Smajlovic's group?

16 A. No, no. Never.

17 Q. After the shooting, the heavy firing, in Fakovici, did you ever

18 ask to carry a weapon or think you should carry a weapon?

19 A. No. No one asked me to. I was so busy as I was that there was no

20 need for me to have a weapon.

21 Q. Whenever weapons would be captured, such as your testimony with

22 the truck that had the red cross on it, were members of Asim Smajlovic's

23 group given new weapons or other weapons?

24 A. Can you please clarify that.

25 Q. I'd like to know whether when weapons were captured by

Page 12858

1 Mr. Smajlovic's group such as the time period or on the occasion when the

2 red -- the truck with the red cross was captured, were members of the

3 group ever given those weapons?

4 A. That was no truck; it was a car. That's the first thing --

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... vehicle.

6 A. Those weapons stayed with us in Smajlovic's group in the village

7 of Jagodnja and Joseva only.

8 Q. So do I take it that the other men from the group who had weapons

9 would protect you because you were one member of the group who never had a

10 weapon?

11 A. Well, of course we had to protect one another.

12 Q. And so, the members of the group knew that you didn't have a

13 weapon, and weren't you especially protected?

14 A. Of course they knew. They saw it for themselves, didn't they? Of

15 course one knew how someone who was carrying no weapon was supposed to be

16 moving about. You can't be the first to go. You know where the nurse is

17 supposed to be, a nurse carrying bandages and medicines. I think that is

18 self explanatory.

19 Q. Mr. Alic, I agree, because the nurse is particularly vulnerable

20 and important for the group.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, in the other groups that you met, whether it's in Fakovici -

23 and we'll talk about Jezestica - were there other people who were nurses

24 or performed the function of nurse in the groups?

25 A. As I said yesterday, it was in the other group that came from

Page 12859

1 Kragljivoda, those who came across the minefield where four people were

2 killed. A nurse was one of the persons killed from one of the villages

3 that I can't remember now. A nurse tripped over one of the mines, stepped

4 on it, and was killed. In Zanjevo I didn't notice anyone marked out as a

5 nurse or carrying first-aid kits, that is with the exception of myself.

6 Q. I just have a couple of questions to ask you about Cizmici. When

7 you arrived in Cizmici, did you notice any other armed grouped -- armed

8 groups of men in Cizmici?

9 A. At the time when I arrived with the group, it was dark. We

10 entered a house, as I said. We rested and ate whatever food we had

11 brought along. We spent the night there. I didn't see anyone else. The

12 next morning, we left at daybreak. We left Cizmici at daybreak or

13 earlier. It must have been 2.00 or 3.00 a.m.

14 Q. And you left at 2.00 or 3.00 a.m., and at that point you didn't

15 see any other armed groups leaving in the direction in which you were

16 going?

17 A. We saw a group of civilians moving, a large one, a group that was

18 in the area. We walked across creeks and mountainous areas that were

19 snowed over. It was very difficult to walk. You just tried to see -- you

20 just tried to decide which path you would take and you were mindful of not

21 stepping on anything.

22 Q. So it's your testimony that the only armed group was in fact your

23 group with the guide that Ejub Golic had sent to you? Are those the only

24 armed group?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

Page 12860

1 MR. JONES: I'm sure Ms. Sellers is not trying to get the witness

2 to say in the whole of the area this witness is claiming to say that there

3 was only one armed group. He's obviously talking about Cizmici --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understand.

5 MR. JONES: -- the particular route he took, what was in his

6 vicinity.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood it.

8 MR. JONES: That's fine, but his answer shouldn't be purported to

9 be about a broader area.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers, I think you should make it clearer.

11 MS. SELLERS: When he left the house in the morning and I want to

12 know if there was any other armed group walking with him from Cizmici that

13 morning.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Like I said, we left the next

15 morning. It was still dark. We noticed a large number of civilians

16 moving along, but I did not see any armed groups. You understand that it

17 was dark and you couldn't see a thing right there in the middle of the

18 forest. I said this once and now you're asking me the same question again.

19 So to sum it up, I did not see any major groups of armed people in Cizmici

20 that night, with the exception of the people who were carrying rucksacks,

21 but those people were civilians, to put it simply.


23 Q. Right. So I have this one last question before we take the break,

24 Your Honour.

25 Mr. Alic, you testified that you were given ribbons to wear around

Page 12861

1 your head. Why was your armed group given ribbons to wear around their

2 head in Cizmici?

3 A. I don't know why or how. I got one myself, tied it around my

4 head. I never asked any questions as to why I was supposed to wear it,

5 but it was probably in order to mark us out.

6 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I can stop here.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Alic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

12 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Mr. Alic, I'll remind you that we were talking about your group in

14 Cizmici and your testimony was that you in fact ended up in Jezestica on

15 that morning of January 7th, 1993. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, when you came out of the woods and into Jezestica, did you

18 see any other group of armed fighters other than Asim Smajlovic's group?

19 A. Yes. When we came near Jezestica, there was heavy firing, a lot

20 of shooting, and there were lots of civilians there who were walking ahead

21 of us, quite literally. On the other hand, I did notice people with

22 rifles but I had no idea which group they belonged to or where they'd come

23 from. I really didn't know.

24 Q. Okay. And can I just ask, yes or no, were the other people that

25 you noticed with rifles, did you know them to be Muslims or did you assume

Page 12862












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12863

1 that they were Muslims and not Serbs?

2 A. In the forest where we were, the people who were around me, at

3 least that's what I believed, were Muslims.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, it's true that you never made it to Glogova. Your

5 group walked for two days, stopped overnight, but you never went to

6 Glogova, did you?

7 A. We were in Cizmici, and that night we were told that we would go

8 in the direction of Glogova. Now, where did we end up? I don't know. We

9 weren't familiar with the area. I'm not sure how we ended up where we

10 did. But it was from my return from Jezestica that I reached Avdagine

11 Njive with some wounded and walked from there towards Jezestica. That's

12 what I said yesterday.

13 Q. After you participated in this armed fighting, you returned to

14 Jagodnja. You didn't go to Glogova, did you.

15 A. I passed through Glogova with the wounded, and I withdrew towards

16 Cizmici on the same day from Avdagine Njive, which is part of Glogova.

17 Q. Now, during that whole day, did you see armed groups wearing

18 uniforms -- Muslim armed groups, whether they were white uniforms, whether

19 they were camouflage uniforms, whether they were old JNA uniforms. Did

20 you see any uniformed people?

21 A. Those firing from the Serb houses, those were Serb soldiers

22 wearing uniforms. As for the Muslims who had arrived from the same

23 direction as myself, there were no people wearing uniforms.

24 Q. Excuse me, sir, I'm not speaking now specifically about people

25 arriving from your direction. I'm asking about people you've seen during

Page 12864

1 that entire day, and I'm not asking about Serbs, I'm asking any Muslim

2 fighters or forces. Did you see anyone in any form of uniform, any type

3 of uniform? Just yes or no, please.

4 A. No.

5 Q. And any of the wounded that you cared for, were any of those

6 wounded wearing uniforms or have ribbons tied around their heads?

7 A. No, no. None of them were in uniform. Those wounded were

8 civilians, and I dressed their wounds.

9 Q. Did you meet any of the fighters from Glogova, other than the man

10 who guided you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So then it's your testimony that you walked for two days and

13 participated in what appears to be large-scale armed fighting and never

14 met the fighters or the soldiers from Glogova. Is that correct?

15 A. I met none of the armed soldiers from Glogova. I was involved in

16 the Jezestica area. We came down to Jezestica and I entered two or three

17 houses. I must repeat what I said yesterday because that's what you're

18 asking me about. I entered two or three houses and the bakery before I

19 entered any other houses. There were wounded civilians there, and for

20 that reason I left for Avdagine Njive and Cizmici, where I waited for my

21 group in order to go back to Jagodnja. That's what I said.

22 Q. Okay. And you can't assist us with any of the military

23 formations, if any, that were there. Correct?

24 A. No. I can't tell you anything about any military formations at

25 this time or any other major groups. I saw none of those. I did my own

Page 12865

1 job and I know exactly what it was.

2 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Alic. I'm now going to turn

3 to three other brief areas and then I'll be concluding my direct

4 examination.

5 Mr. Alic, you testified to the Trial Chamber earlier today about

6 the names of certain people that you said came from -- one from Jagodnja,

7 that was Ahmed Alic, and others that you were familiar with in Joseva.

8 A. Please, Madam Prosecutor, you'll have to repeat the first name.

9 Q. Yes. Let me repeat it. Ahmed Alic.

10 A. Ahmed Alic, no such man at Jagodnja. It can only be Ahmet.

11 Q. Ahmet, right.

12 A. No person called Ahmed because that's a different name

13 altogether.

14 Q. Thank you very much. It does end in a "t." Do you remember when

15 you testified at the very beginning of your testimony today about these

16 names, including Hasib Kurtic, Fahrudin Avdic, Ferid Bektic. You recall

17 that testimony, Mr. Alic?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Thank you?

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like the witness to be shown

21 Prosecution Exhibit 571, please. And I would like to also hand up to the

22 Trial Chamber and to Defence a translation of some of the items within

23 P71. I'm sorry, it's P571.

24 Q. Mr. Alic, I'm going to speak a bit more rapidly. If you cannot

25 understand what I'm saying, please indicate. But I just would like to be

Page 12866

1 able to conclude the cross-examination in the coming minutes. You've been

2 given a list of the members of the Biljeg TO unit, Srebrenica. And you

3 will see on the page that ends in ERN 703, I believe it's 02115703, that

4 it states the name, place of birth, and residence, when the person joined

5 the TO, the duty of that person, whether they were a member of the unit.

6 If you look under number 1 you see the name Ahmo Tihic, born in 1955. It

7 states that he joined the Biljeg TO in April of 1992 and that he was a

8 unit commander.

9 Is that consistent also with what you've testified about to the

10 Trial Chamber, that Ahmed Tihic -- Ahmo Tihic was the commander of the

11 Biljeg group?

12 A. Ahmo Tihic was the commander or the leader of the Biljeg group,

13 but not at the date stated here. I saw Ahmo Tihic at the time I

14 mentioned in my statement, at Biljeg. I didn't hear of his being there

15 before that.

16 Q. Yes. And you're referring to July -- June and July or August of

17 1992. Correct, sir?

18 A. Yes. End of July or beginning of August. I did not hear of the

19 existence of these formations before that, nor did I see them at Biljeg,

20 what you're showing me now on the screen.

21 Q. Yes. Would you just also look further down on number 2, and now

22 I'm looking over in the column that says "duty." It's one, two, thee,

23 four, five, I believe the sixth column over. Do you see under where, for

24 Ahmo Tihic it said unit commander, that we have deputy commander, we have

25 the word "courier," and further down on line number 4 we have "cook." Do

Page 12867

1 you see where the document states those functions in the unit?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. -- this way you're bound to confuse the witness

3 because you mentioned line 2 and you mentioned line 4. These are not on

4 line 2 and on line 4 but other numbers. Deputy commander seems to be in

5 line 3.

6 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And cook I could see is -- the Serbian word is under

8 7.

9 MS. SELLERS: Under line 7. Yes. Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Alic, do you see those functions listed under those columns?

11 A. Yes. I see what it says here. I can see what it says.

12 Q. I would like you now to turn to number 87 on this list --

13 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's number 95.

14 Q. Excuse me. Could you turn to number 95 on the list.

15 A. Yes, I see it.

16 Q. Do you see the name Fahrudin Avdic?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. And wasn't it your testimony before you confirmed that Fahrudin

19 Avdic is from Joseva?

20 A. Yes, he is from Joseva.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I would like you to turn further in the

22 list, and you will see that it on ERN that ends in 710, the ERN is

23 02115710 at the very bottom of the list, it ends in the number 127.

24 A. 127?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 12868

1 A. Yes, yes. I see 127.

2 Q. All right. And if you turn over on the next page that would end

3 in ERN number 711. That would be 02115711. We have what is basically the

4 same, Biljeg TO, Srebrenica, except for it says A4/1. And that list ends

5 in number 9. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, you would agree with me that 127 and 9 adds up to

8 136?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need the witness to confirm that -- this

10 or --

11 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. Can we take judicial notice of

12 that. Our first judicially noticed fact, maybe.

13 Q. And also for the sake of expediency, Mr. Alic, there are the names

14 of other people you've confirmed that come from Joseva in the document. I

15 will not run through them.

16 MS. SELLERS: I would now, while this document is here, ask that

17 the witness be shown P80, please. And I would direct the Trial Chamber's

18 attention to page number 2 in P80 under number 4. And I believe that that

19 would be the same for the B/C/S.

20 Q. And, Mr. Alic, do you see under number 4 where it says

21 "TO Biljeg, Biljeg Company, A4, A4/1, 136 conscripts, Commander Ahmo

22 Tihic"?

23 A. Yes, I see it. Yes.

24 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour. We can remove

25 the documents from Mr. Alic. I just have two very brief areas to go into

Page 12869

1 now.

2 Can we have a P number for the translation. I believe that we

3 have P571 for the document, but the translation would be new,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, this list which indicates names

6 under 1, 2, 3, up to 117, 118? In other words, this list that was

7 circulated a few minutes ago?

8 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, and this list corresponds to the

9 names --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. It's okay. I'm not questioning that. I

11 mean, I'm just trying to make sure that we have the right document.

12 What's the next number, please, Madam Registrar? P5 --

13 THE REGISTRAR: P587, Your Honour.


15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document which is supposed to be extracted

17 or contains details from P571 is being tendered and received and marked as

18 Prosecution Exhibit P587, and it consists of one page only.

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Alic, yesterday the Defence asked you a series of questions

21 pertaining to whether certain people lived in Joseva or Jagodnja. And if

22 I can remind you of your testimony, they referred you to Prosecution

23 exhibit, asking you, Did you see number 16, Osman Salkic, Joseva. And you

24 said: "I see this number and there isn't a person under that name at

25 Joseva. The family does not exist in Joseva, Osman."

Page 12870

1 And they also asked you about a Hasan Salkic, and you repeated the

2 testimony that these persons did not exist in Joseva. Do you remember

3 that testimony, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Alic, I'd like to ask you: Are you aware or do you know that

6 there are towns that bear the same name as Joseva or districts within that

7 area of Bosnia and Serbia? Are you aware of that, sir?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean that area of Bosnia and Serbia?

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, more specifically, Srebrenica

10 municipality --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And across the Drina --

12 MS. SELLERS: Beg your pardon?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And across the Drina.

14 MS. SELLERS: And across the Drina.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.


17 Q. So, Mr. Alic, I take that you would be familiar that there are

18 five towns with the name -- or five areas with the name Joseva?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would now like to pass up a

22 Prosecution exhibit that I was able to show to the Defence prior to the

23 commencement of this session. And this exhibit is part of the census

24 pertaining to one of those other places. I have given to the Defence, and

25 now Your Honours are in possession of it, the letter that we received. I

Page 12871

1 have to ask that we go into private session very briefly.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a while,

3 please.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12872

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: A new document consisting of three pages, one of

24 which is two -- four-sided. With ERN 00671997, 00671998, and the rest

25 which contains the names of several persons living in Fojhar Srebrenica,

Page 12873

1 Joseva, is being tendered, and received, and marked as Defence Exhibit

2 P588 -- Prosecution Exhibit, sorry. Prosecution Exhibit P588.


4 Q. Mr. Alic, you testified yesterday that when you were in Srebrenica

5 after the demilitarisation, that UNPROFOR wouldn't allow people to carry

6 weapons. Is that your testimony?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And your testimony was also that they dealt fairly harshly with

9 people who did carry weapons.

10 A. Yes. I heard what I said yesterday. The man who was in the

11 direction of the old town, this group of UNPROFOR soldiers chased him

12 away. He was probably carrying a rifle.

13 Q. Right.

14 A. That's what I heard and that's what I said.

15 Q. Thank you?

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would like Mr. Alic now just to look

17 at a very short video. It's about 30 -- maybe about one minute. Okay.

18 This is P318. A transcript accompanies.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see anything on the screen.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start again, please.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I object to the writing on the screen.

24 It suggests the name of one of the people in the picture. That's not

25 acceptable in our submission.

Page 12874












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12875

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Why not?

2 MR. JONES: Because if there's any question asked to this witness

3 about any of the people, it's just been suggested to him or fed to him

4 that one of the people is our client. If there's no -- if no question is

5 asked about that --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what the question is going to be.

7 MR. JONES: But I would object to any question about who's in the

8 picture because it's already cued below the picture.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not going to change much, Mr. Jones, because we

10 can see it, too.

11 MS. SELLERS: I believe the objection is premature because any

12 questions I had did not go to the nature of identification.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So lets continue seeing and then we'll see what the

14 question ...

15 [Videotape played]

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have just understood by my case

17 manager that we're experiencing a little difficulty in having the

18 transcript continue to roll down. And if I understand correctly, we are

19 probably past the point of what we see on the written screen.

20 Could I just have that confirmed by a speaker, B/C/S speaker,

21 please?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I did of course notice that the script did not

23 scroll any further, but I thought that you had actually stopped it

24 yourself, as you're not interested in it.

25 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. We were interested in continuing

Page 12876

1 down until the time period where we see the writing. If it's proceeded

2 past that, then we don't want to prolong the tape in any way. So I just

3 wanted to make sure that it has gone down to cover the transcript.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as I'm

5 concerned, I could hear nothing of what was said in Bosnian here. And I'm

6 really interested in how someone managed to produce a transcript of it. I

7 don't know if the witness was able to hear anything.


9 Q. Mr. Alic, were you able to hear anything in a language you

10 understand from the tape?

11 A. Very poorly, hardly anything.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: If necessary, Ms. Sellers, we'll play it again.

13 MS. SELLERS: I'll play the sound louder. If we do that one last

14 time I won't belabour the Trial Chamber's time.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course I was hearing sound. But you asked me

16 when I wasn't even trying to see if I could understand what was being said

17 in that language. I mean -- and I thought that you had stopped the script

18 rolling because of reasons of your own. So I was anxiously waiting for

19 the question or questions, actually.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, might I suggest that Mr. Alic's

22 microphone be turned up here and that does significantly augment the

23 sound. Can I ask the usher to --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's ask him first whether he's heard better this

25 time. I think -- my sound level without touching anything here was higher

Page 12877

1 in any case.


3 Q. Mr. Alic, have you been able to hear the Bosnian on this tape

4 better this time, the second time we've played it?

5 A. A little better, yes.

6 MS. SELLERS: Could I ask the usher just to adjust it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Just don't ruin his eardrum, Madam Usher, please.

8 [Videotape played]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop, because we haven't covered the

10 previous part again. It continued from where we had left it when you

11 stood up to ask for an increase in the sound level.

12 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. We're going to just --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the best thing at this point in time is to

14 leave everything tomorrow because you're not going to finish in three

15 minutes.

16 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I am going to finish in three minutes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But is there going to be a re-examination, for sure.

18 It doesn't take much to understand that there is a re-examination and I

19 understand that we have got some questions of our own.

20 MR. JONES: I would have been ten minutes to finish with this

21 witness today --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But I am not going to keep anyone else -- anyone for

23 another ten minutes. We have been sitting long enough, so he will come

24 for a half an hour at most in the morning and then he can be taken to the

25 airport straight away. The arrangements can remain in place and he can be

Page 12878

1 taken to the airport.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, and then I will continue tomorrow

3 morning. I will be two minutes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't make sense because I do understand going

5 beyond a certain time does create problems. It doesn't create problems to

6 us, but -- especially people who are using their hands and whatever. It

7 does create problems, and I understand that, and I have every duty to

8 respect those concerns. So, yeah, let's leave it at that.

9 You will return back for a very short time tomorrow morning. In

10 the meantime, I take it -- Madam Usher, please, if you could communicate

11 with the Victims and Witnesses Section, they can proceed with the

12 arrangements for his return to his place of residence, but he will be

13 needed here for a short while.

14 If it is problematic for the Victims and Witnesses Unit and we

15 need to start at 8.00 instead of 9.00 -- because I don't know what time

16 the flight would be. I haven't got an idea. So if we need to come at

17 8.00, would everyone be willing to come here at 8.00? Judge Eser?

18 Judge Brydensholt? And I think that would be possible. I don't figure

19 that that should present any problems.

20 MR. JONES: It's fine with us.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, because I want to make sure that he goes home.

22 I can't -- honestly, I would -- you know that I have stayed for 10

23 minutes, 15 minutes, sometimes even beyond that. But I have decided that

24 that will not be repeated unless it is absolutely, absolutely necessary.

25 So shall we meet tomorrow again at 8.00? I don't know. I mean, I

Page 12879

1 don't know what time the flight is. Yes, yes she is going to check.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You will have to come back as well, Mr. Di Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: That's not a problem, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know it's not a problem. We would have dealt with

6 your problem tomorrow in any case.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Di Fazio, please.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: What I was going to suggest is -- is that if the

9 Defence could see a way to finishing in a reasonably short amount of

10 time, I could put what I have to say in a couple of A4 pages and have it

11 to you and to the Defence. Tomorrow we wouldn't even have to convene. I

12 have --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Di Fazio, I have to have the agreement --

14 Mr. Di Fazio, I have to have the agreement of everyone here. I

15 understand that past an hour and a half it becomes difficult for -- so

16 it's ...

17 MR. DI FAZIO: All I'm saying is, it's no problem for the

18 Prosecution to reduce what I've got to say into writing, and the Defence

19 could look at it at their leisure and have plenty of time and come back on

20 Tuesday next week. I'm more than willing to do that. I don't need stand

21 here and say what I've got to say. I could put it in writing. That would

22 then leave my friend and Mr. Jones --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: But do you have it in writing already, or not?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I haven't. I will type it up and then I send it to

25 you by tomorrow.

Page 12880

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That could be done if it is acceptable to the

2 Defence. I don't know. Is it --

3 MR. JONES: Yes, it is. We would -- we, really -- for this

4 witness and for everyone we would really prefer to finish with his

5 testimony today and we can be ten minutes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I will make an effort, Mr. Jones. I would imagine

7 there are no problems on this side. You think it's okay with you. All

8 right.

9 The interpreters, another 15 minutes, maximum?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.


12 Technicians?

13 Okay. I'm being told if he stays tomorrow he can't leave tomorrow

14 then he has to leave -- he will be leaving on Saturday. Let's make an

15 effort -- the technicians, I haven't -- all right.

16 Please, could you bring your cross-examination to an end as

17 quickly as possible.

18 And then, Mr. Jones, please try to limit your re-examination to

19 what is really essential so that we will go home. Yeah.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I understand that now the film is just

21 being rebooted at the proper place.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Mr. Alic, let me just ask you: Do you confirm your testimony that

25 when UNPROFOR came to Srebrenica, that the carrying of heavy weapons and

Page 12881

1 artillery was not allowed under demilitarisation?

2 A. Yes, I can confirm that. I didn't see any people in Srebrenica

3 carrying weapons in or around Srebrenica.

4 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honours. I can finish here.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Ms. Sellers.

6 Mr. Jones.

7 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Jones:

9 Q. Mr. Alic, just a few questions and if you can keep your answers as

10 short as possible. In the video we've just seen, we've seen some men in

11 uniform. Are you able to tell us where that was filmed?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Are you even able to say whether it's in the Srebrenica area?

14 A. I can't say. I think it was in the general area of Srebrenica

15 because we were in a small enclave where nothing like this could take

16 place. So this was not in the Srebrenica area, to the extent that I was

17 familiar with it.

18 Q. Right. And are you able to tell us when this was shot, whether it

19 was 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996?

20 A. No way I could say. I don't know.

21 Q. And there's reference to one of the persons there talking about

22 Chetniks. Is "Chetniks" an expression to refer to Serb soldiers or does

23 it refer to Serb civilians as well?

24 A. The expression is used for Serb soldiers.

25 Q. Now, going back to the new exhibit P588?

Page 12882

1 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown that.

2 Q. Now, firstly the Prosecution suggested to you that there were five

3 places with the name Joseva in the Srebrenica area. That's not something

4 you can confirm, is it? You haven't heard of five other places?

5 A. No, I haven't. That's exactly what I said originally.

6 Q. And on this document do you agree that the settlement referred to

7 is in fact Fojhar? If you look at the document and you see the column at

8 the top, settlement, and then it actually says "Fojhar."

9 A. There's no translation here. It says "Fojhar" down here, but I

10 have no idea what the English means.

11 Q. Right. At the top of that column where it says "Fojhar," the very

12 top, what does it say?

13 A. I can't read English.

14 Q. My apologies. Never mind.

15 MR. JONES: I'll trust the Chamber will take note of what I've just

16 referred to.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: What are you referring to exactly?

18 MR. JONES: In this document we have the columns. The settlement

19 is Fojhar, according to this. We see Joseva, but it doesn't say that it's

20 a settlement, it doesn't say anything about Joseva, simply that that's the

21 first point. Your Honours can take note of that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. All right.


24 Q. Then if we look at that -- on this document, I asked you yesterday

25 about a Hasan Salkic. Hasan is a man's name, isn't it?

Page 12883

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so.


4 Q. And you see the name Hasa Salkic. Do you agree that that's a

5 woman's name?

6 A. Hasa, yes.

7 Q. So there's no Hasan Salkic, in fact, on this list, is there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yes there is not or yes there is?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The question was not interpreted.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I -- you need to repeat the question. And I think

12 it's --

13 MR. JONES: Again, yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it -- you can script this question into the

15 next one.

16 MR. JONES: Yes. Can the witness please be shown P571 now.

17 Q. I'm going to take you to some names in this document and I want

18 you to tell me whether they were living in Joseva from May 1992 on onwards

19 or not and the first is Sadija -- Kurtic Hajdar Sadija?

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would just ask him to specify which

21 Joseva they were living in.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Which?

23 MS. SELLERS: Joseva that they were living in.

24 MR. JONES: Right.

25 Q. I'll take it number by number. In number 7 the question is: For

Page 12884

1 each of these whether they were living in the Joseva which is next to

2 Jagodnja from May 1992 onwards. So on the first page, number 7, Kurtic,

3 Hajdara Sadija.

4 A. Kurtic Hajdar Sadija, no not from Joseva, number 7. Kurtic

5 Hajdara Sadija, no, no, this person is not from Joseva.

6 Q. Not from the Joseva next to Jagodnja?

7 A. Yes -- no.

8 Q. Now, if you would turn to page 02115708 and it's numbers 87, 88,

9 and 95. Kurtic Mehana Hasib, was he living in your Joseva from May 1992

10 onwards?

11 A. This man is from Joseva, but he wasn't living there at the

12 time. His house had been torched, so he went elsewhere. I'm not sure

13 where to.

14 Q. And the same question for 88, Bektic Rame Dzevad, if it is

15 Dzevad.

16 A. The same answer applies to this person. One thing you need to

17 understand: People left Jagodnja and Joseva, those people whose houses

18 had been torched. I'm not sure where they -- all of them went. When they

19 ran out of food, they would come back for food and leave again, but they

20 left the village. They weren't there, they weren't living there, I've

21 explained this twice already, haven't I.

22 Q. To cut it short then, does that refer to all the names we see from

23 Joseva, number 95 on that page Avdic Manuta [phoen] Fahrudin.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the next page number 100 Bektic Akmer [phoen] Ferid?

Page 12885

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the next ones 117, 118, 119, Alic Osman Ahmet, Kurtic Nedzad

3 Fadil, and Kurtic --

4 A. Yes, yes. Alic Osmana Ahmet is a relative of mine. He was

5 married to someone from the area. He and his wife left the village all

6 together, left Jagodnja I mean.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, as far as this reference to unit in

8 Biljeg is concerned, when you went to Biljeg and you saw Ahmo and his men,

9 did there appear to you to be soldiers in properly formed units?

10 A. No, no. Those were no properly formed units like you said. They

11 were more civilians than soldiers. That's at least the -- how they looked

12 in their civilian wear, their regular plain T-shirts, sports shoes. When

13 I say a "soldier," we all know what that implies, uniform, weapons,

14 equipment, and all the rest.

15 Q. And was there anything like 136 of those men when you were there

16 in Biljeg in the summer of 1992?

17 A. No, no. I told you who I talked to and how many people were

18 there.

19 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, a few last questions. You were asked

20 about your task as a -- or what you did as a nurse. When you helped

21 people as a nurse, was it always at the request of Asim Smajlovic or did

22 you just do it because that's what you were trained to do?

23 A. I did this out of sheer love, as it were. I was trying to help

24 those people who had been struck by misfortune.

25 Q. And you helped civilians as much as fighters, did you not?

Page 12886

1 A. Indiscriminately, irregardless of whether these people were

2 civilians, soldiers, or even heads of cattle. We had wounded cattle whose

3 lives we tried to save, let alone people.

4 Q. And if you had seen someone who had been injured by artillery or

5 by a mortar and Asim Smajlovic told you to leave them alone, would you do

6 that or would you tend to them?

7 A. It was a humanitarian job, the way I saw it. I would have gone

8 and helped every person facing that sort of situation. Asim was in no

9 position to order me to go there or not to go.

10 Q. Thank you. Just one matter relating to the interview which you

11 were shown and there was a reference to couriers. Could you just clarify

12 this for us, and, please, with a yes or no: The Almas that you referred

13 to that came from Srebrenica to Biljeg, he went to Biljeg, didn't he, he

14 wasn't sent to Jagodnja and Joseva?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And he wasn't, from what you heard, sent to gather --

17 A. I explained this, I think. I made it quite clear. Alma Hasanovic

18 was sent to Biljeg and not to Jagodnja and Joseva. So that --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer by yes or no because you're going to come

20 again tomorrow like this.

21 Yes, Mr. Jones.

22 MR. JONES: Yes, I have two more questions.

23 Q. And please do answer with yes or no so we can finish. You didn't

24 hear, did you, that he was sent to gather information on how many weapons

25 or how many fighters there are in Biljeg, that he was sent to take over

Page 12887

1 from Ahmo?

2 A. No. I never heard that he had been sent there to gather

3 information on how many weapons there were or anything like that.

4 Q. Now -- and also you -- when you were asked about what you heard of

5 Naser Oric you said that it was the -- that he was the same as Hakija and

6 Zulfo and Akif, in other words that he had a group of men, and that his

7 group was in Potocari. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, did you hear in interview it being said by the person who was

10 being interviewed: "After I was elected to be commander, in practice I

11 was basically the same as I had been before. There was still the

12 Territorial Defence units and I was still the commander of the Territorial

13 Defence units. In practice, I stayed a soldier, as I had been before."

14 Do you recall hearing that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you say that Naser Oric had his group, as Hakija and Zulfo

17 and Akif did, is it your evidence that essentially he had his group and it

18 was in Potocari and they had their groups, which were elsewhere?

19 A. Yes. I heard that Naser Oric had a group at Potocari and that all

20 the other persons that I referred to had their own groups in their own

21 villages.

22 Q. And when Asim and his group went to Cizmici, did Asim at that

23 point have a superior who he reported to or not?

24 A. No.

25 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 12888

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Jones.

2 Mr. Alic, we've managed to conclude with your testimony. I wish

3 to thank you for having come over. You will be receiving the assistance

4 of our staff to facilitate your return back home. On behalf of everyone,

5 I should like to wish you a safe journey back home. You can now leave the

6 courtroom. I also wish to publicly thank everyone here for having

7 accepted to overstay, particularly you, Madam, because I know how

8 difficult it is for you to stay keying in for more than an hour and a half

9 and this has been quite demanding.

10 We'll meet again on Tuesday then. Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of

13 October, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.