1 Thursday, 3 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam.
10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies
12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my own language.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 Appearances for the Prosecution.
15 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm Patricia Sellers,
16 Office of the Prosecutor. With me today, co-counsel, Ms. Joanne
17 Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink. Good
18 morning to Defence also.
19 I'd just like to announce Mr. Wubben is unable to be here, due to
20 an unforeseen dental appointment, which I know Your Honour will
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, except that mine is not dental, neither
23 is it mental.
24 Yes. Appearances for the Defence.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My name
1 is Vasvija Vidovic. Together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser
2 Oric. With us are our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our CaseMap
3 manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.
4 Your Honours, I have an apology to make. I too have an
5 appointment today at a quarter to 10.00, so I will ask to be allowed to
6 leave with Mr. Geoff Roberts, because of a Status Conference I have to
7 attend in another case. Mr. Jones is the one examining this witness.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. You can leave at any time,
9 Ms. Vidovic, without any problems at all. And I sincerely think that the
10 sitting would be over by that time.
11 Yes. Are there any preliminaries before we bring in the witness?
12 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: On your side.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson. Because yesterday you said you
16 had another five minutes, ten minutes.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, indeed, I did say that, Your Honour. And of
18 course not anticipating that one particular question would have taken much
19 longer than it should have. But I can say today I have three very, very
20 short video clips and three additional documents and that will be the end
21 of it. It should take, hopefully if the witness cooperates, no more than
22 20 minutes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay.
24 Mr. Jones' face is radiating light. And your re-examination will
25 last again a short while?
1 MR. JONES: Yesterday it was anticipated to be about five minutes,
2 but I think, to be realistic, three video clips and three documents, we'll
3 see how long it takes. I was just reacting to the suggestion that it was
4 a matter whether the witness cooperates.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anyway, let's not -- I won't comment on that,
7 Let's bring the witness in and we continue with his cross.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sacirovic, good morning to you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this courtroom again and to this case.
12 We are going to continue and finish with your testimony today.
13 Ms. Richardson.
14 WITNESS: MUSTAFA SACIROVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examined by Ms. Richardson: [Continued]
17 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning, Mr. Sacirovic. And I just
18 have a few questions for you this morning. First --
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. First I'd like to just go over briefly with you what you testified
21 to on examination-in-chief about Mr. Naser Oric. Now, you testified that
22 indeed Mr. Oric had been in Srebrenica during the time that you were
23 there, and I mean the town of Srebrenica.
24 A. Naser Oric was on the territory of Srebrenica, yes.
25 Q. Did you happen to see at any time that you were in the town of
1 Srebrenica itself Mr. Oric?
2 A. I saw Oric in Srebrenica only very rarely.
3 Q. And were you aware -- and when you say "rarely," was that in 1992
4 as well as in 1993?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And do you remember the months that you saw him? Was it in the
7 summer or the winter or the spring of 1993?
8 A. I can't recall the exact month. I don't know. But I may have
9 seen him only two or three times in the years 1992 and 1993.
10 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Oric had an apartment in the town of
12 A. I'm not aware of that.
13 Q. And you said that he lived in Potocari with his -- he was in
14 Potocari quite often, and that's where his mother resided; would that be
16 A. As far as I know, Naser Oric and his parents had a house in
17 Potocari, and he resided with his parents.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: At this time I would like the witness to be shown
20 a video clip, and that is P318.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MS. RICHARDSON:
23 Q. Do you recognise the person on the screen before you, standing
24 next to what appears to be a white horse with some -- it appears some grey
25 specks on it, not totally white, but a horse that's seemingly white in
1 colour? Do you recognise the person there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And who is it?
4 A. That's Naser Oric.
5 Q. And as you see him on the screen, he's wearing a uniform?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And during the times you saw him in Srebrenica, was he wearing a
8 similar uniform?
9 A. No. Sometimes I saw him in uniform and sometimes without a
10 uniform. He wasn't wearing a uniform all the time, that is.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: We can continue to play the video. And Your
12 Honour, this is at 43:46.2.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MS. RICHARDSON:
16 Q. Now, before you, you see a car. Mr. Oric is on the horse, and in
17 the background there's a car. Could you tell us if you saw Naser Oric
18 driving that car in Srebrenica at any time in 1992 or 1993, or any time
20 A. During 1992 and 1993, I absolutely never saw Naser Oric driving a
21 car in Srebrenica, nor do I remember having seen him driving after 1993.
22 Q. And with respect to him being on a horse, did you ever see him
23 riding a horse at any point? And not necessarily in the town of
24 Srebrenica alone, but any other point -- any other place in the Srebrenica
25 municipality or the Bratunac municipality.
1 A. No. This is the first time I've seen him, on this video.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I should indicate the time as well.
4 It's 45:01.1.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.
6 MS. RICHARDSON:
7 Q. Now, Mr. Sacirovic, you testified that you were the secretary for
8 the War Presidency of the Bratunac municipality, is that correct, in 1994?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And during that time, did you have opportunities to prepare
12 A. What reports do you mean?
13 Q. Well, I'll rephrase the question. As the secretary of the War
14 Presidency, what were your functions, your duties?
15 A. To convene a session of the Presidency, if needed and if so
16 ordered by Mr. Dzemal Masic, the president of the War Presidency. That
17 was my only duty, and to attend the session.
18 Q. And did the president -- did the War Presidency prepare reports of
19 the work of the War Presidency?
20 A. Mr. Dzemal Masic would know that. He was the president. And his
21 secretary who worked there. I'm really not aware of whether or not he
22 prepared any reports, and if so, where he sent them.
23 Q. All right.
24 MS. RICHARDSON: At this time, Your Honour, I do have a new
25 document to show the witness, and for the record, it is ERN DA169591.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not saying that I didn't sign
2 some documents, if so required by the president of the War Presidency. I
3 cannot recall exactly, because a long time has elapsed. If I see a
4 document, it might jog my memory.
5 MS. RICHARDSON:
6 Q. Fair enough, Mr. Sacirovic. If you could take a look at the
7 document that's before you. I'll read into the record what it states.
8 It's from the Republic of BiH, Bratunac municipality, War Presidency,
9 Bljeceva, 22nd of February, 1994. It's to the attention of the Tuzla
10 district, Izet Hadzic, Tuzla. It is entitled war report of our War
11 Presidency and expenditures in 1993. Towards the end of the document it
12 is -- there are two names that appear, war presidents, Dzemal Masic and
13 war -- secretary of the War Presidency is Mustafa Sacirovic, Mule.
14 Now, I take it that's you that's being referred to as the
15 secretary of the War Presidency? Mr. Sacirovic, is that a reference to
16 your position?
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the interpretation is
18 still going on.
19 A. Yes, it is my name.
20 MS. RICHARDSON:
21 Q. Thank you. Now, I would just briefly refer you to the first
22 paragraph, first and second paragraph of this document. It
23 states: "Following your dispatch number 02011/94, dated the 18th of
24 February, 1994, we are sending you the report. Bratunac War Presidency
25 has been established and started to work on the 10th of June, 1992 in
1 Konjevic Polje. All men fit for military service at this territory were
2 immediately mobilised. The collecting of food for soldiers on the front
3 line has been organised. At that time we had 1.500 soldiers.
4 "Upon the entry of municipality Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vlasenica,
5 and Zvornik into the subregion on the 3rd of November, 1992, Bratunac War
6 Presidency continued its work, but in accordance with the instructions of
7 the newly formed War Presidency of the subregion, led by Hamed Salihovic,
8 former head of Srebrenica."
9 Now, my question to you, Mr. Sacirovic, is that you testified
10 yesterday that the subregion in fact was a political goal and an idea that
11 did not necessarily function. And do you recall saying that during your
13 A. Yes, and I repeat that now.
14 Q. Do you recall seeing this report?
15 A. No. It's the first time I've seen it.
16 Q. Now, do you agree that in this report there is a discussion of the
17 War Presidency? This report is dated 1994. And in fact, the information
18 contained here states that the War Presidency - excuse me - that the
19 subregion did in fact exist and the work was continuing. Do you agree
20 with that?
21 A. I mentioned yesterday that Hamed Salihovic tried to make the
22 subregion function. But, Madam Prosecutor, I repeat today: The subregion
23 could never begin to function, due to the situation prevailing in
24 Srebrenica at the time.
25 Q. I understand that. But this report, which is from the president
1 of the War Presidency of the Bratunac municipality, indicates, does it
2 not, that the subregion began in -- began on the 3rd of November, 1992,
3 and it is continuing, in accordance with -- as per this report states?
4 I'm asking you only what this report states.
5 A. Let me tell you quite sincerely: This report is completely
6 unfamiliar to me. I did not sign it, nor did I compile it.
7 Q. I understand that. I'm simply asking you: As you look at this
8 report, you're saying you're seeing it for the first time, does it not
9 state in the second paragraph that the subregion was formed on the 3rd of
10 November, 1992, and that it continued its work in accordance with the
11 instructions of the newly formed Presidency of the subregion by Hamed
12 Salihovic? Is that not what this document states? It's a simple yes or
14 JUDGE AGIUS: In actual fact, you're asking him whether the
15 translation that you have is a good translation or not, basically.
16 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because that's what it means. Wait, wait, wait.
18 But if the document, on the face of it, saying exactly that, why
19 do you want him to confirm it to you if he doesn't recognise the document
20 in the first place?
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can move on.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, or Ms. Vidovic. I don't know which
23 one of you wants to take the floor.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have a
25 translation here, but the Prosecutor is saying something not contained in
1 the original. This deals with the work of the Bratunac War Presidency,
2 not that of the subregion.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, with all due respect to the
4 Defence --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the previous paragraph, Ms. Vidovic.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: It's the paragraph --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the previous paragraph.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: And we can provide a translation if she doesn't
9 have one.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the previous paragraph, paragraph 2.
11 MS. RICHARDSON: In any event, Your Honour, I am moving on because
12 I do have limited --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Paragraph 2, which specifically mentions the
14 subregion. Again, we don't need a confirmation from the witness if he
15 does not accept the paternity or even recognise this document. So at the
16 end of it, it says what it says.
17 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. And if I could have --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- Your Honour, but it
20 says the following: "On entering the subregion," and so on, "The War
21 Presidency of Bratunac municipality continued its work following the
22 instructions of the newly established -- newly formed War Presidency of
23 the subregion."
24 It doesn't say that the subregion began to function. It says that
25 the War Presidency began to function. They probably don't have a good
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Because that's not the point. The whole point --
3 the witness was not being asked anything else for the time being except to
4 confirm what we can read anyway. So let's move to the next question.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour. In fact, I am finished with
6 this document.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's give it a number. This will become
8 Prosecution Exhibit P592.
9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Sacirovic, during the time that you were in Srebrenica in 1992
11 and in 1993, do you recall being present at any of the actions that were
12 launched by the Armed Forces of Srebrenica?
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the reply.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard him say "ne" but I want him to confirm that
15 I heard him say "ne," or rather, that he said "ne."
16 What was your answer to the question?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said no, because I
18 never participated in any actions, nor did I observe any.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like the
20 witness to be shown a video, which is Prosecution's Exhibit 302.
21 I stand corrected, Your Honour. It's P329.
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE SPEAKER: Document dated 3rd of July. Again, is that your
24 signature on the document?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 And having read the document, is there anything in the documents
2 that you can point to that is untrue?
3 There's nothing unusual here.
4 The first two, for example, the number of soldiers or more than a
5 certain amount of soldiers who had died, and a large number of wounded.
6 Now, those wounded, does that refer to Muslim wounded or Serbian wounded?
7 This is talking about the heaviest attacks to date of positions
8 which our forces (inaudible) that means that the Chetniks were attacking
9 our positions. And it says here in the early morning hours an attack was
10 carried out by extremists. And then it mentions the points the Chetniks
11 were attacking, that is, attacking our forces. It says that on these
12 points an attack was carried out, which forces of the Srebrenica
13 Territorial Defence repelled. And then it says how many of our fighters
14 were killed and how many wounded members of the Srebrenica Territorial
15 Defence. And then it mentions with what forces the Chetniks attacked.
16 These were all what they assumed, because they wouldn't have been able to
17 say exactly. Nobody would have been able to say whether it was an 84 tank
18 or a T-55. The 120-millimetre mortar shells, they would have been able to
19 check. The number of shells that fell on our positions is 100 per cent
20 correct, because there was someone who would count them. His name is
21 Mustafa Sacirovic, his name. This man sat and counted the incoming
22 explosions. His name is Mustafa, M-u-s-t-a-f-a, Sacirovic. He is still
23 alive. And then it explains what kind of shells these were and where they
24 fell, and it says here that the attack started in the early morning hours
25 and continued until 6.00 in the afternoon, and that 20 Chetniks were
1 killed and a large number were wounded."
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment before you put your question. For
3 the record, the part played from this recording starts at 03:07:33 right
4 up to 03:11:47.8.
5 Yes, Ms. Richardson.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. At this time I
7 would also like the witness to be shown Prosecution's Exhibit 302. This
8 is a document that's from the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
9 Srebrenica Territorial Defence, Crisis Staff, dated the 3rd of July, 1992.
10 Subject is report of the Srebrenica TO Staff.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Sacirovic, I would direct your attention to the paragraph
12 which states -- it starts with "artillery support" and in the second line
13 it states: "We have the exact figure of 564 shells fired at Pale, the
14 Srebrenica TO artillery position and the town of Srebrenica itself."
15 So just bearing that portion in mind, I would ask you the
16 following: You just saw a video.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'm not receiving
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're not receiving
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Witness, and thank you, Ms. Vidovic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am receiving it now.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think that calls for Ms. Richardson to repeat
24 her question.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. I'm just not sure at what
1 point --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't bother about that. Start from the beginning.
3 MS. RICHARDSON: All right.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You said: "Now, Mr. Sacirovic, I would direct your
5 attention to the paragraph, that document that you've seen which states --
6 it starts with artillery support, and then the second line it states: "We
7 have the exact figure of 564 shells fired at Pale."
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Correct.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: "The Srebrenica TO artillery position and the town
10 of Srebrenica itself."
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Sacirovic, do you see that paragraph in the document that
13 you're holding before you, Prosecution's Exhibit 302, the part which talks
14 about artillery, it mentions an M-84 tank, 120-millimetre shells and
15 guided missiles, and it also states -- exact figure of 564 shells fired at
16 Pale, the Srebrenica TO artillery position and the town of Srebrenica
18 Do you see that portion?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. My question is -- concerns the videotape that you just saw that
21 was played. Do you recognise the person talking in that video, who was in
22 the centre of the video? Do you recognise that person as Naser Oric?
23 A. Yes. I could not recognise him by sight, but I recognised his
25 Q. And you heard him say that you were the person who, during the
1 time -- during a particular attack that was being launched, that -- not
2 being launched by the inventory forces, but that there were a number of
3 shells fired at Pale, and that you were the person who counted the shells.
4 Can you confirm that this is in fact true, that you were present and you
5 were counting shells that were being fired at the Pale Srebrenica
6 territorial artillery positions and the town itself?
7 A. Yes. That's true, and I can confirm it. In addition to
8 collecting facts on war crimes, I also counted shells. But I would like
9 to correct what Naser stated. I was not in any trench. I was in the
10 cellar of a house. I would first hear the shells being fired and then the
11 explosion as they landed. And I started counting them on my own
12 initiative. Nobody ordered me to do so. Then the owner of the house
13 would ask me, "Have you managed to count them all?" And I said I did. And
14 that's how I made it a practice to count the shells as they landed in Pale
15 throughout my stay there until July. I counted them and noted the number
17 Probably from my experience, I developed this feeling for
18 distinguishing between different shells, whether it was a 62-millimetre or
19 a 120-millimetre mortar shell or a tank shell. I could also recognise
20 shells with defective warheads that failed to explode. I would detect
21 those as well. But nobody ordered me to do so. I did it on my own
23 And it was natural then that people would ask me, "Do you know how
24 many shells landed?" And I would tell them. Everyone knew that I knew
25 the numbers, and you can ask the survivors, that I was the one counting
1 the shells.
2 Q. And who would you pass the information to specifically? Did you
3 pass it to the War Presidency as well as the members of the military? Who
4 would you give the information to?
5 A. I would not forward the information to anyone. I had the figures
6 written down in my notebook. This was during my stay in Pale. Later on I
7 had other commitments. I did not continue the practice. And whenever
8 someone asked me about the number of the shells that landed, I would open
9 my notebook and tell them. I did not submit any reports to that effect,
10 either to Naser Oric or to the president of the War Presidency, Hajrudin
11 Avdic. These were figures that were simply written down in my notebook
12 for my own purposes.
13 Q. And based on the letter that you just saw, indicating that shells
14 had been counted and based on what Naser Oric said, it's clear to you now,
15 is it not, that the military did obtain your information, whether you gave
16 it to them or not?
17 A. They were able to receive the information from anyone, because I
18 did not hide the figures. If anybody asked me, for instance, how many
19 shells had landed on Pale the day before yesterday, and I would tell them
20 120 shells, and it was no secret. It was for everyone to know. Moreover,
21 there may have been others who counted the numbers of the shells that
22 landed, not just me.
23 Q. And did you or did anyone from the military ask you how many
24 shells you counted?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
1 MR. JONES: Yes. It's the reference to the -- the second
2 reference to the military. We know the evidence of this witness about
3 armed groups. This document is purportedly from Srebrenica TO Crisis
4 Staff. I would object to the use of the word "military."
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct, correct.
6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question. As a
7 matter of fact, I can move on.
8 Q. We have another video clip to show you, Mr. Sacirovic.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, because I think it's because of the
10 overlapping, while you were still --
11 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes. I realise that.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: -- speaking, Mr. Jones. I did say "Correct,
13 correct," before Ms. Richardson continued.
14 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I did want to make one other point, which
15 is that all this video clip of the interview and the document was preceded
16 by a question by Ms. Richardson, were you present for actions launched by
17 the Armed Forces of Srebrenica? And it's very clear this document -- this
18 interview is referring to the Chetniks attacking our positions, attacking
19 our forces. I simply wanted to be clear that if there was any attempt to
20 impeach this witness's credibility by suggesting otherwise, this was
21 clearly defensive action.
22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, perhaps the Defence counsel should
23 go back to my question that I did put right before asking Mr. Sacirovic,
24 and my question was: Was he counting the artillery that was being
25 launched at Pale and Srebrenica TO? And it's two different questions.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move ahead.
3 MS. RICHARDSON:
4 Q. Mr. Sacirovic, at this time I will be showing you a video clip,
5 Prosecution's Exhibit 517, which is identical to 318. Please tell us if
6 you recognise the person -- anyone in the video.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MS. RICHARDSON: If we can pause right here, and the time is
9 831 --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: The time is 00: -- It's 6 minutes and 3
11 seconds, .1.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. My numbers are a bit fuzzy. Thank
13 you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's your eyesight, I think.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you won't need -- in fact, if you need an
17 urgent appointment, we can stop the sitting now, Ms. Richardson.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: I'll rely on Your Honour's --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You will be the third one or the fourth one now.
20 MS. RICHARDSON:
21 Q. Okay. Do you recognise the person that's before you on this
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Is this Naser Oric?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And he's seated behind a desk in a uniform?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And he's being interviewed. Do you remember if you were present
4 during the time this video was made?
5 A. I wouldn't be able to remember before looking at it. If you could
6 play it, then I'll be able to tell you.
7 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MS. RICHARDSON:
10 Q. And there's a date. If you can just pause. It's dated
11 the 12th -- August 12th, 1992.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: 12th August, 1992.
13 MS. RICHARDSON:
14 Q. Do you recognise these individuals?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 [Videotape played]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the sound important or not, Ms. Richardson?
19 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, it's not. This is purely a
20 visual exercise.
21 Okay. If you can pause right there.
22 Q. Do you recognise these two individuals before you, who were also
23 in uniforms?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the two individuals referred
1 to by Ms. Richardson are at 7 minutes, .08 seconds, .7.
2 MS. RICHARDSON:
3 Q. Do you recognise those individuals, Mr. Sacirovic?
4 A. No, except for Naser, I know nobody else.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. RICHARDSON:
7 Q. Do you recognise this individual who was wearing a hat? And I
8 believe -- I'm not sure if you can tell us if he's also wearing a uniform?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record -- one moment, one moment. For the
10 record, the individual that -- wearing a hat that Ms. Richardson is
11 referring to is at 7:14:7.
12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Sacirovic, do you recognise that person? Perhaps we can go
14 back a bit and play just that portion.
15 [Videotape played]
16 A. The video footage is a bit dark. Do you maybe have something else
17 that you can play?
18 MS. RICHARDSON:
19 Q. Unfortunately, this is all we have. Does this --
20 A. Believe me, I can't recognise the person.
21 Q. Okay. Is that a little bit better?
22 A. I apologise, but I can't tell, really.
23 Q. This person is wearing what appears to be some kind of a hat. You
24 may recall yesterday saying that Mirzet Halilovic wore something like a
25 cowboy hat. Do you think that's him?
1 A. Roughly speaking, yes, that could be Mirza, but I'm not sure. It
2 is very blurred. It could be his face, though.
3 Q. Okay.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MS. RICHARDSON:
6 Q. And do you know the woman in the picture, that you're looking at
7 at this time? And it's at 7:30.4.
8 A. No.
9 [Videotape played]
10 A. Yes, yes, this is Mirza. Now I manage to recognise him.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness recognises -- he states
12 that he recognises Mirza at 7:37.4. Do you know this guy?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, I don't.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So the person at 7:42.9, the witness does not
16 [Videotape played]
17 MS. RICHARDSON:
18 Q. Now, just with respect to where we are, 8:14:3 you see Mr. Oric
19 sitting behind a desk. There's some paper on the desk, and you saw the
20 room. Could you tell us if you recognise where that room -- where that
21 room would be located, what building in Srebrenica, if you recognise it at
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: We do have one more clip, just briefly, and it's
1 from Prosecution's Exhibit 433.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MS. RICHARDSON:
4 Q. Now, if we could just pause there. You recall going to Biljeg and
5 interviewing Mr. Ahmo Tihic and his men. If we could show this clip
6 again, it's at 59:09, but we're going to go back a bit to 50 --
7 A. Yes, I remember.
8 Q. All right. And do you see the person whose sitting with the hat
9 on and to his left there are two men with uniforms on and across is
10 another one. Do you recognise the person with the hat?
11 MS. RICHARDSON: If we could play it again.
12 [Videotape played]
13 A. Yes, that's Mirzet Halilovic.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you.
15 MS. RICHARDSON: Now, Your Honour, I am almost done. I just have
16 a couple more questions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Have a nice weekend, Ms. Vidovic.
18 MS. RICHARDSON:
19 Q. Now, do you recall, Mr. Sacirovic, being present when two Muslims,
20 two male Muslims, were killed, or at least one was shot by Ejub Golic in
21 Srebrenica on April 1st, 1993?
22 A. Yes, I remember. However, as far as I was able to see, Ejub
23 killed one man. I'm not sure about the other allegations. I know about
24 that one. I was there.
25 Q. And you saw him kill Huso Husic; is that correct?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And this happened in an apartment above the department store in
3 Srebrenica on April 1st, 1993?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the other man that died was Fikret Salkic, from Joseva, the
6 other Muslim that was -- that died that same evening?
7 A. It was only the following morning that I found out about it.
8 Yesterday you mentioned the Salkic family from Joseva, asking me whether I
9 knew them. I told you that I didn't know them, and I still claim so. I
10 do not know them. Because the following day, on the 2nd of April, a
11 policeman was going to tell me that Fikret Salkic was not from Joseva but
12 from Fojhari. That's the name of the village, which is located between
13 Srebrenica and Joseva. It is closer to Srebrenica, above the weaving
14 factory. That's why yesterday there was the confusion when I told you
15 that I didn't know the Salkic family from Joseva.
16 Q. But it would not be a particularly -- it would not be a huge
17 mistake to mistake one for the other. Fojhar is right next to Joseva;
18 isn't that correct?
19 A. Yes. It is located between Srebrenica and Joseva, but closer to
20 Srebrenica, because there's a wooded area dividing it from Joseva.
21 Q. And you remember this individual, Fikret Salkic. He was present
22 when Mr. Husic was shot by Ejub Golic. Do you recall that?
23 A. No. Among those present in the room where the murder was
24 committed, I knew only Ejub Golic, Hanif Talovic and Refik Mehmedovic,
25 whereas there were some 20 persons in total there, and I did not know most
1 of them. I saw them there and then for the first time.
2 Q. All right. And on that day, or the evening, I think it happened
3 around 1700 hours on April 1st, 1993, do you agree approximately that was
4 the time that this incident occurred?
5 A. It was a bit later. It was the month of April, but already dark
6 was setting in. So it might have been around 6.00 in the afternoon.
7 Because when I went out, it was already dark.
8 Q. And you recall being present when an argument occurred between
9 Ejub Golic and Huso Husic, and Ejub Golic shot Mr. Husic? You remember
11 A. I don't recall there being any squabble or anything of the sort.
12 I was in the kitchen, and the kitchen was just close to the dining-room,
13 when Ejub shot Huso. I was perhaps some three and a half to four metres
14 away from the scene of the crime. He shot him and killed him. I was
15 panic-stricken. It was the first time that I experienced something of the
16 sort. I was frightened, totally shocked, and beyond myself.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer the question. Much more detail will
18 only keep you here longer. Already the 20 minutes have grown to 50.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour, and I'm moving. This is my
20 final subject matter.
21 Q. You recall after this incident happened you left the apartment
22 immediately and you went to report what you had seen to someone. Do you
23 recall that? And the person that you went to report this matter to was
24 Naser Oric. Do you recall that that's what you did?
25 A. No, not Naser Oric. As I left the room, I went straight to the
1 building of the civilian police. The windows were right above the
2 asphalt. So I did not enter the building but, rather, knocked on the
3 window, and some men belonging to the civilian police opened the window,
4 asking me what was going on. I said there was a murder that took place up
5 there, a man was killed. I came out barefoot from the apartment to report
7 One of the policemen there that I knew by the name of Zele, from
8 Kazani, told me to go back home, not to move about the street. It was
9 very cold, to go back to the apartment, and that they were going to take
10 care of it, and that's what I did. I went back to the apartment as soon
11 as I left the police.
12 Q. My question is, however: Did you not first attempt to report this
13 matter to Naser Oric or a member of the OS Staff of Srebrenica, before
14 going to the police?
15 A. No. Why would I? It was within the competence of the police.
16 That's why I went straight to the police.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I have a new document.
19 In fact, let me just put a couple more questions to Mr. Sacirovic.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: How long is this going to last, Ms. Richardson?
21 Because I'm telling you, I don't like this at all. When you say 20
22 minutes, it's 20 minutes. You're becoming impossible, and I will ask my
23 colleagues to make sure that from now onwards you will be given a
24 time-limit and you have to finish within that time-limit.
25 MS. RICHARDSON: I have no problem with that, Your Honour. I'll
1 just put this document to the witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.
3 MR. JONES: May I add a concern to that, Your Honour, which is
4 that as I anticipate this witness is now going to be asked and he's going
5 to be given a very short space of time because of the timing -- the
6 impasse we've reached because Ms. Richardson has so exceeded the estimated
7 time, where he's going to be asked to look at what's in Bosnian two pages,
8 very closely typed, it's three pages in English. For reasons which I
9 explained before, we haven't reviewed this document with the witness, and
10 I would certainly insist, and I would absolutely insist, if this witness
11 is going to be asked questions about what may be alleged to be a prior
12 statement by him, he absolutely has to have the right to take five, or
13 ten, or 15 minutes, however long he needs, to read it carefully, to try
14 and remember the events, to try and recall what he said. And you'll
15 recall with a Prosecution witness this occurred on one occasion. A prior
16 statement was put to him, and he was given a whole break to look at it and
17 consider it. And certainly if any importance is placed on this document,
18 to in a matter of seconds throw the document in front of him, say what
19 about this, that and the other, would be deeply unfair to the witness and
20 would certainly not produce the best evidence.
21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I agree with Mr. Jones that the
22 witness would need a few minutes to review the document.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So why did you say that you needed 20 minutes to
24 finish this final part of your cross-examination in the first place?
25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, as usual, I always seem to
1 underestimate my time, and in fact I was hoping that --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's finish -- Ms. Richardson, I can't accept this
3 situation to prolong any further. It's simply not acceptable in any court
4 of justice.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I understand that. But this, as
6 Mr. Jones said, is a particularly important document and I had not --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Put it to the witness.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Put it to the witness.
10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I'd like the witness to
11 be shown a document.
12 Q. And Mr. Sacirovic, as that is being prepared for you, I would ask
13 you if you recall being part of an investigation into the matter that you
14 were just describing, where Mr. Husic was killed. And do you recall
15 giving a statement as to what you saw and heard on April 1st, 1993?
16 A. Yes. I did give a statement to the civilian police in Srebrenica,
17 and only to them, no one else.
18 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to the state commission for
19 gathering facts on war crimes in Sarajevo?
20 A. No. Why would I? The state commission did not deal with such
21 matters. This was an ordinary murder. The state commission dealt with
22 war crimes.
23 Q. All right. Perhaps if I can put a document before you and you can
24 take a look at it and tell --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's see it. Is it signed?
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, it is.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's put the original on the ELMO first, with
3 the purported signature, and ask him whether he acknowledges that to be
4 his signature or not in the first place.
5 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, indeed. We thought we had copies, except
6 that I'm told that the wrong set have been brought down.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this a new document?
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. This is a new document and I
9 will hand it to the usher to put it on the ELMO.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, let's put the last page, where the
11 signature or signatures are, and ask the witness whether he recognises any
12 of those signatures. Further up, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the signature resembles
14 mine, but until I've seen the document, I can't tell you anything more.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you hand him the document, please, the entire
16 document. Take your time, Mr. Sacirovic. Have a look at it. And then
17 the first thing we want to know is whether that is a document which you
18 indeed signed or whether you don't think so.
19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe the witness is indicating
20 he needs a pen, and if I can ...
21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. What is he using the pen for? Is he
22 marking the document or what?
23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't know. Perhaps we can ask
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Perhaps -- why do you need a pen,
1 Mr. Sacirovic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, this document is
3 not my document. I didn't make this statement. I said the signature
4 resembled mine, but I did not make this statement. And there are things
5 here which are absolutely illogical. First of all, this was an ordinary
6 murder among Muslims and had nothing to do with the State Commission on
7 War Crimes. The State Commission did not deal with such matters.
8 Secondly, it says here on the 1st of April, 1993, sometime around
9 1700 hours, when I arrived from the field where I was deployed by the
10 command of the Srebrenica Armed Forces, Commander Naser Oric, as an
11 intelligence officer, this is not correct. I met Refik Mehmedovic, aka
12 Refo, at the department store in Srebrenica. Well, this is not true, that
13 Naser Oric appointed me some sort of intelligence officer.
14 Secondly, there are people mentioned here whom I don't know. I do
15 know Ejub Golic and Hanif Talovic. I've already said that. But as for
16 the others, Mehmedalija Mehic, aka Jungo, from Konjevic Polje, and Enes
17 Ibrahimovic from Sopotnik near Drinjaca, Huso Husic from Pobudja, Sacir
18 Husic from Pobudja, Fikret Salkic from Joseva, [indiscernible], and a few
19 others, these are all men I didn't know, Your Honour.
20 Furthermore, there is mention here that Naser Oric, after the
21 liberation of Kravica on the 7th of January, appointed Ejub Golic
22 commander of the Armed Forces of Bratunac. This is not correct. It was
23 the War Presidency of Bratunac municipality who appointed Ejub Golic TO
24 commander, or rather, commander of the Armed Forces of Bratunac
1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I do have copies to be handed up to
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
4 Any further questions to the witness on this document?
5 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. In fact, I'd like it to be
6 given an exhibit number.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll give it Exhibit number P593.
8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have no further questions. Thank
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 Mr. Jones.
12 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm just wondering how long
13 in fact I have, depending on the questions.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: 11.00, not later than that. But I suppose you don't
15 need as much as Ms. Richardson.
16 MR. JONES: No, Your Honour. I was just wondering whether the
17 Bench already had in mind to take up a certain amount of time.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have any questions. Just one or two
19 questions from Judge Eser. It depends on what you will be asking.
20 MR. JONES: Okay. I certainly have enough time, then.
21 Re-examined by Mr. Jones:
22 Q. Yes, Mr. Sacirovic. First I want to ask you a few questions about
23 some of the videos which you were shown today.
24 First you were shown a video in which a couple of horses appeared,
25 a dark one and a light-coloured one. My question is: Firstly, do you
1 know when that was filmed, even in what year, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995,
2 1996? Do you have any idea when it was filmed?
3 A. I don't know that. I didn't film that.
4 Q. And do you know where it was filmed?
5 A. I don't know that.
6 Q. Do you know who the horse belongs to, the light-coloured one which
7 we saw?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And there was a car in the background. Do you have any idea who
10 that belonged to?
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. And you were shown another video clip in which a person you
13 identified as Mirzet Halilovic was in the same room as Naser Oric. Have
14 you ever been in the same room as someone who was not a subordinate of
16 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you repeat it, please.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Repeat it. I think in a way I can understand the
18 problem the witness has.
19 MR. JONES: Yes. Not to worry. I withdraw that question.
20 Q. You also saw a very brief clip of a video in which Mirzet
21 Halilovic appeared. Do you recall that? It was after you were asked a
22 question about filming in Biljeg and then you were shown a very short
23 clip. Do you recall that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In the background, do you recall seeing buildings, seeing the
1 roofs of buildings?
2 A. Yes. It was in the village.
3 Q. Were the buildings like that in Biljeg?
4 A. No. In Biljeg, it was a wooded area. It was woods.
5 Q. Now, you were asked yesterday about what you saw in Kravica in
6 March 1993, and you referred to torched houses. Can you tell us -- were
7 you able to see when those houses had been burned, whether in March,
8 February, or January 1993, or before?
9 A. No, I can't tell you. How could I tell you when the first time I
10 went toward Kravica was on the 7th, 8th, or 9th of March, to meet Philippe
11 Morillon, but due to the danger, we couldn't go further. We had to go
12 back. So how would I know when those houses were burnt.
13 Q. And when you use the word "torched," could you actually tell
14 whether the houses had been set on fire by human agency or that they had
15 been caused by some other cause; for example, by artillery?
16 A. Well, on one house you could see traces of a shell. I didn't
17 really inspect the houses a lot. I just saw five or six houses on both
18 sides of the road. And some houses were intact. There were others where
19 only the windows were blackened. They weren't really burnt to the ground.
20 They hadn't burnt down completely, as was the case in Glogova.
21 Q. Now, you've trained in the United States as an investigator. As
22 an investigator, if you're trying to determine the cause and the seat of a
23 fire, do you or do you not need a considerable amount of forensic
25 A. Absolutely, yes.
1 Q. And was that expertise available in Srebrenica in 1992, 1993?
2 A. No. Most intellectuals and educated people had already left
3 Srebrenica. It was only the middle classes and the poor who stayed
5 Q. Now, also yesterday you showed on the map various areas which you
6 had travelled to in order to film various events. Is it right that that
7 covered the places you circled, that was in a period of a year or so that
8 you went to those places?
9 A. I visited those places from the beginning of the war up to the
10 fall of Srebrenica, 1995. When needed, I would visit certain places.
11 Q. And when you were travelling around in 1992, was it safe just to
12 go back and forth between these different places?
13 A. For the most part, it was not safe. Sometimes I had to wade
14 through creeks, sneak through forests. I had to take care to hide.
15 However, I was fortunate. I never ran into an ambush or anything like
16 that. But it was very dangerous, yes.
17 Q. And you and your team were able, were you not, to postpone, if you
18 needed to, your trip for a few days until the danger had passed. You
19 didn't have to get somewhere as a matter of urgency. Is that correct?
20 A. For the most part, very often we had to postpone the carrying out
21 of a task, precisely due to the danger on the ground. I wouldn't let my
22 two men expose their lives to danger, nor did I want to expose my own life
23 to danger. As soon as I saw that the situation was bad, I would give the
24 order to go back and give up the task for that day and postpone it until
25 another day.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. JONES: I'd ask if the witness could be shown, and this is on
3 a new topic, P84. And the pages to turn to are first of all 02115075 in
4 the B/C/S, which is page 25 of the English. And this allegedly refers to
5 minutes of the meeting of the Armed Forces Staff, held on 10 November
6 1992. And I'll wait until you have that page.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 25, 25 in English.
8 MR. JONES: 25 in English, yes.
9 Q. And Mr. Sacirovic, do you have the page which is -- it ends in the
10 numbers 075?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you'll see II, and then if you go down about three paragraphs,
13 you see "Zulfo."
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Further up. Further up. Yes, yes, stop, stop.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 MR. JONES:
17 Q. And I'm actually going to the third paragraph there, where it
18 says: "Carry out an investigation into the reasons for Bajramovic's
19 (illegible) Mirza says that he carried out the preliminary procedure and
20 the record was delivered to Becir. Mirza was not supposed to put him in
22 Now, who is Mirza, first of all?
23 A. Mirzet Halilovic was the commander of the military police in
25 Q. Now, you told us repeatedly how Mirzet Halilovic was the
1 subordinate of Becir Bogilovic and that you reported to him. Does this
2 passage or does it not confirm your evidence that Mirza reported to Becir,
3 delivered records to Becir?
4 A. Yes. Mirza reported to Becir Bogilovic. When Becir couldn't take
5 those reports, Mirza took them himself to Hajrudin Avdic, the president of
6 the War Presidency. These are indisputable facts. Everybody knows that.
7 Nurija would bring in the reports, Nurija Jusufovic, I mean, for the
8 civilian police, and Mirza for the military police. They were both
9 subordinate to Becir Bogilovic, and Becir Bogilovic, as a member of the
10 War Presidency, was subordinate to the president of the War Presidency,
11 Mr. Hajrudin Avdic. That was the hierarchy, or the system, the chain.
12 Q. Thank you. And we see further up on that page, directly under II,
13 "Cooperation with the VP is good." "Cooperation with the VP is good."
14 The VP would be military police. Would that be correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So according to this, as of 10 November 1992, someone was
17 reporting that cooperation, presumably between the staff and the VP, was
18 good. Would that be a correct reading?
19 A. The military police had nothing to do with any staff, as far as I
20 know. It was subordinate to the War Presidency -- Becir Bogilovic. There
21 are some things here that clash. It's not clear here, but everybody knows
22 that the War Presidency was the supreme command of all the structures
23 located in Srebrenica. The president of a state is the president of a
24 state, and the president of a municipality is the president of a
25 municipality. I'm trying to draw a parallel here. So the hierarchy was
1 there. It was in place, just as the president of a court is the president
2 of a court. Every plays their role.
3 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's very clear. And it was really in terms
4 of hierarchy, I was emphasising the word "cooperation" rather than, let's
5 say, command. It's right, isn't it, that in terms of the hierarchy you
6 stated you don't cooperate with a body or an organ which is beneath you;
7 you would command it. Would that be correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And if we go to page 28 now in the English, which is 5078 in the
10 Bosnian. And you were shown this section yesterday.
11 MR. JONES: And for the record, this concerns minutes of the
12 Srebrenica OS Staff meeting held on 22 November 1992. This is, as I
13 say, 5078.
14 Q. And if you see V there and the word "Osman reported on the
15 position of the RP regarding the reorganisation of the VP."
16 Now, the RP stands for what, firstly?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we heard that already. It's the War
19 MR. JONES: Yes. War Presidency, yes.
20 Q. So my question, then: Would you understand from this that --
21 A. War Presidency.
22 Q. And would you understand from this that the War Presidency had
23 taken a position on the reorganisation of the military police?
24 A. Yes. It was the only competent organ, because the military police
25 was subordinated to the War Presidency. So, logically, whatever position
1 the War Presidency took, whether with respect to the military police or
2 any other body subordinate to it, it would be the body making decisions.
3 Q. Thank you. Then if we turn now to page 43 of English, 5100 is the
4 last four ERN numbers in the Bosnian. And there, if we look down in the
5 English, anyway, it's page 43, and we're looking at the last paragraph,
6 and we see "Hajrudin." And it says: "We cannot provide weapons for
7 guards at facilities, the VP and the CP, civilian police."
8 Do you see that part?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And does that or does it not confirm what you're saying that the
11 War Presidency was dealing with the military police and the civilian
12 police, and that's why the issue arises of the War Presidency providing
13 weapons to the military police and the civilian police?
14 A. The War Presidency was duty-bound to provide them, because these
15 two structures, according to the hierarchy, were below the War Presidency.
16 But I have to say that this is the first time I've seen all these minutes.
17 They're not familiar to me. I'm simply answering your questions. But I'm
18 not familiar with the documents.
19 Q. That's fine. Finally just one more question on this document, and
20 it's 5064 in the Bosnian. And it's page 17 in the English. And again,
21 it's a part which you were asked about yesterday. And I think I might be
22 able to approach it by simply reading the Bosnian --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can do that, it will go quicker, Mr. Jones.
24 MR. JONES: Yes.
25 Q. The question is: There's a phrase here which says, and I'll read
1 in Bosnian, if I can: "[B/C/S spoken].
2 There's a question about the word "pri." In your language does
3 "pri" mean that the service operates within the armed services or does it
4 mean something else?
5 A. I didn't understand your question fully.
6 Q. That's fine. Do you see the phrase there which in English
7 is: "In fact, it consists of two services, the communication service,
8 operating within the Armed Forces, and the information service." And in
9 Bosnian we have the word [B/C/S spoken].
10 I just want to ask you what "pri" means in your language, in that
12 A. Close to, next to, something like that.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. JONES: Now, I've finished with that document.
15 If the witness could please be shown P591. And this will be a
16 document which you recall -- or do you recall, Mr. Sacirovic, being shown
17 yesterday concerning a medal of resistance for which Mirzet Halilovic was
18 apparently being nominated? I'll put the question:
19 Q. Have you heard of such a medal as the medal of resistance?
20 A. No. Such a medal never existed anywhere, either before, during,
21 or after the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 Q. Now, I don't want you to -- to invite you to speak ill of the dead
23 or anything like that, but when Mirzet Halilovic died was his death widely
24 lamented or not? And if you can explain --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps we'll avoid this question, Mr. Jones, and
1 move to the next one.
2 MR. JONES: Okay. I'll withdraw that question. You're right,
3 Your Honour.
4 Q. Let me ask this instead: In your country and in the system in
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina, would it be usual to grant an award of this kind
6 to someone two years after his death and while the war is still ongoing?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, yesterday -- or in this document, Mirzet Halilovic is
9 described as having been a company commander when he went to Pale, and you
10 described him as a leader of a self-organised group. I just want to be
11 clear: When you saw Mirzet Halilovic, when you knew of him in Pale in
12 May, June 1992, was he the commander of a military formation, namely, a
13 company, or not?
14 A. No. He was the commander of a self-organised group. It was no
15 military formation or company or anything of the sort. I have no idea
16 where this comes from. I believe that this document seems to prejudice
17 certain things. I don't know who the author of the document is. I don't
18 see whether there's need even to discuss the document.
19 Q. Well, I'll just ask you this, then, finally: Yesterday the
20 Prosecution sought to suggest that these were similar concepts, being a
21 company commander and being a leader of an organised group, as you've
22 described it. Are these in fact similar concepts or are they something
23 quite different?
24 A. No. This can't be similar, because one knows what military
25 formations are as opposed to self-organised formations. Military
1 formations have a chain of command, they have a specific way in which they
2 are organised and so on.
3 Q. So this is a different concept altogether; it's a difference of
4 quality, difference of kind, rather than just shades of different meaning;
5 would that be correct?
6 A. Absolutely, yes.
7 Q. Now, you were also asked yesterday about Bosnian Muslims possibly
8 using Serb words, and you agreed that a Bosnian Muslim who had lived a
9 long time in Serbia might do so, but not otherwise. My question is: Did
10 you live for a long time in Serbia?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you use the Ekavian dialect, or words of the Ekavian dialect,
13 when writing or speaking?
14 A. No. I speak the Ijekavian dialect, and I also write in that
15 dialect, not in the Ekavian dialect.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. JONES: And if the witness could be shown P79 now, please.
18 And it's simply a question, again, in your language, we see at the
19 beginning, the very top, [B/C/S spoken] Subject and the word "prijedlog."
20 Q. Now, what does that word mean in your language, "prijedlog"?
21 A. "Prijedlog" means to propose, nominate, someone for something.
22 Q. So is that something which can be either accepted or not accepted?
23 A. Precisely. It is not a decision. A decision is something that
24 has to be accepted, whereas a proposal doesn't necessarily need to be
1 Q. And from this document, we don't know, do we, whether this
2 proposal was accepted or not?
3 A. Absolutely, yes. This is a proposal, not a decision.
4 MR. JONES: There might be one language issue. I'll leave my
5 colleague to mention.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said "Prijedlog means to
8 propose someone for something," whereas the term "nominate" does not match
9 what the witness stated. If the witness may clarify.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move, Mr. Jones. I don't think we
11 should lose more time on this, Mr. Jones.
12 MR. JONES: No. Thank you, Your Honour. Just one moment, though,
13 please, Your Honour.
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown P592, please.
16 Q. Now, you were shown this document already this morning. I just
17 want to ask you about a couple of things. Firstly, you'd agree, would you
18 not, that this is unsigned, unsigned document?
19 A. No. Or rather, yes, I do agree that it's unsigned.
20 Q. In the first paragraph, it suggests this document that -- or
21 certainly around the 10th of June, 1992, all men fit for military service
22 of this territory were immediately mobilised.
23 Is it in fact correct or not that in Bratunac, in Bratunac
24 municipality, everyone was conscripted into military service? Is that
25 true or not?
1 A. First of all, I was not in a position to know that, because I was
2 in Pale at the time. I have no idea about this.
3 Secondly, I have already stated that I am not familiar with this
4 document. Whereas in the period mentioned here I was in Pale, not in
5 Konjevic Polje, and I was physically cut off from Srebrenica. This was
6 practically a separate enclave, to tell you the truth.
7 Q. Yes. Thank you. But just answer this, if you can: In your
8 experience of the area, Srebrenica, the broader Srebrenica area, in 1992,
9 1993, was your experience that of there being voluntary fighting by people
10 in the territory, or did you ever come across people being conscripted,
11 mobilised, forced to fight against their will, on a large scale?
12 A. No. Nobody was ever forced to fight, but the circumstances
13 themselves dictated that they should fight. Nobody was forcibly
14 mobilised. People went of their own volition.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. JONES: One moment, please, Your Honour.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: How much longer, Mr. Jones?
19 MR. JONES: Yes. In fact, that ends my re-examination.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm asking you not to stop you, but because I have
21 an indication that they may need to change the tapes rather soon.
22 MR. JONES: Yes. No doubt. That concludes my re-examination.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
24 Judge Eser would like to put a question, and that will conclude
25 your testimony here.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Sacirovic, you have told us that you have spent
3 quite a lot of time in the hospital by interview the wounded people there.
4 Did at any time you observe that Naser Oric would come to the hospital?
5 A. No, except when he was wounded on the 15th of March, 1992. Other
6 than that once, I never saw him in the hospital.
7 JUDGE ESER: Thank you very much. No further questions.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 Thank you, Judge Eser.
10 Mr. Sacirovic, I'm happy to announce that your testimony comes to
11 an end here. We don't have any further questions. Very soon you will be
12 escorted out of this courtroom by Madam Usher and you will receive all the
13 assistance that you require to facilitate your return back home at the
14 earliest possible. I thank you for having come over and given testimony
15 in this case, and on behalf of everyone here, Judge Brydensholt,
16 Judge Eser, myself, but also on behalf of everyone present in this
17 courtroom, I wish you a safe journey back home.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Does this
19 mean that as of now I'm no longer under the solemn oath?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So if you want to lie to us now, you are free to do
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I don't usually do that.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We will resume our sittings, as per schedule. In
1 the meantime, I do encourage the Prosecution team to conclude the
2 exercise, to make use of the time available to conclude the exercise
3 that -- the witness can be escorted - of completing in a most thorough
4 manner the searches into your archives, for purposes of disclosure.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And at the same time, the Defence to comply as well
7 with our direction -- directive, should it be necessary. All right?
8 Thank you. Thank you so much.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.42 a.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of
11 November, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.