Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14108

1 Monday, 28 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar -- one moment. Let the accused

6 sit down. Could you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam and good morning to you too.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can follow the proceedings in my mother tongue.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution?

15 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours and also good morning to

16 my colleagues of the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the

17 Prosecution. I'm here together with co-counsel, Ms. Joanne Richardson,

18 Ms. Patricia Sellers, and our acting case manager is Ms. Sanja Bokulic.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you too, Mr. Wubben

20 and your team. Appearances for Naser Oric?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

22 morning, my learned friends. My name is Vasvija Vidovic and together with

23 Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Naser Oric. With us are our legal

24 assistant, Ms. Adisa Mehic. Also Jasmina Cosic and our CaseMap manager,

25 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 14109

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

2 and your team. Before we proceed with the cross-examination, any

3 preliminaries?

4 MR. WUBBEN: Last Friday, Your Honours, we filed the response to

5 the 92 bis motion.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't received it as yet. What we received is

7 a Prosecution response to Defence motion to add a number of witnesses.

8 MR. WUBBEN: That's included. That's what I meant, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean it's included? That's what you

10 meant, I see. And Prosecution response to Defence motion to admit the

11 evidence of a witness in the form of a written statement pursuant to the

12 Rule 92 bis. That's what we got as well.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are still waiting for your Rule 68.

15 MR. WUBBEN: That's due today, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I misunderstood you. In the meantime on Friday also

17 the Defence filed confidentially a further communication regarding

18 non-compliance.

19 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour and we aim to file a response to

20 that on coming Wednesday.


22 [Trial chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So shall we bring the witness, in?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, in the meantime we please apologise, I

Page 14110

1 have to address urgent matters and I was to be available for these

2 preliminaries.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Elsewhere?

4 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, I have to go elsewhere.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means, Mr. Wubben, please.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You can let me know if you will both be available

7 after Wednesday, between Wednesday and Friday to have a sit down with our

8 Senior Legal Officer and try to work out a schedule to finish your

9 testimony more or less we will try and work it out, all right? I'll ask

10 Mr. Wubben -- not Mr. Wubben, Mr. Von Hebel to contact you and he will try

11 to work that out.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 WITNESS: WITNESS D005 [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good Morning to you, sir.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you've had a good rest and are ready to

18 continue and finish this cross-examination. If there are at any time

19 problems with interpretation, please draw our attention straight away.

20 Yes, Ms. Sellers.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Sellers: [Continued]

22 Q. Good morning, sir. Are you able to hear me?

23 A. Good morning, yes.

24 Q. On Friday we were turning our attention to the attack on August

25 8th of Jezestica and I believe one of the last questions I was asking you

Page 14111

1 concerned the feelings in the community within the geographical area from

2 which you come, concerning crimes committed during World War II. My

3 specific question is that you've testified about crimes committed by the

4 Eric family. Do you agree with me that there was animosity in that area

5 concerning war crimes that dated from World War II?

6 A. I think that's correct, yes.

7 Q. And are you aware that the animosity was on both sides, both with

8 Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Serbs?

9 A. Far less among the Bosnian Muslims.

10 Q. Now, sir, do you have knowledge that the town or the village of

11 Jezestica was attacked during World War II and resulted in deaths and

12 damage to property?

13 A. I don't know about World War II, if you mean attacked by the

14 Muslims.

15 Q. Well, sir, what would -- yes, what would become what we call today

16 the Bosnian Muslims.

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. In terms of your knowledge of 1992, then, you said were you aware

19 that Jezestica was attacked. Are you also aware that during that attack,

20 that parts of the upper village were burned, was burned?

21 A. No. I didn't know that it was burnt but I did know that before

22 that, Serbs from Jezestica attacked the Muslims of Ejub Golic's group and

23 that on the 8th of August 1992, Nurif Rizvanovic and his fighters helped

24 Ejub Golic.

25 Q. Are you aware that during that attack, of both Nurif Rizvanovic

Page 14112

1 and Ejub Golic in Jezestica that there were deaths and it was reported

2 that one person's head was cut off after death? Are you aware of that,

3 sir?

4 A. No. I didn't know about that. All I knew was that two of Nurif

5 Rizvanovic's fighters went missing.

6 Q. Now, could I clarify one thing with you? Do you know what time

7 the attack on Jezestica started on August 8th?

8 A. In Jezestica, you can't know exactly when the attack began. The

9 Serbs were attacking and then both sides continued attacking so it went on

10 all day from the morning, starting from the morning, and then throughout

11 the day.

12 Q. Now, you said that when Nurif Rizvanovic came, that some of the

13 soldiers from his unit then placed themselves in other groups of fighting

14 men. Do you remember that testimony, sir?

15 A. Yes. I do. On the 8th of August, about ten men from Nurif's

16 group remained, those who were attacking Jezestica, they remained with

17 Ejub Golic.

18 Q. Now, Nurif Rizvanovic had about 400 or upwards, let's say 350 men

19 in his group, soldiers in his group, and do you know whether any other --

20 other than the ten that you've mentioned -- if any other soldiers went to

21 different groups?

22 A. One couldn't know for sure, precisely. Some even went back to

23 Tuzla. Whether they went elsewhere, I really didn't know.

24 Q. Are you aware of the participation of other Bosnian Muslim

25 fighters or soldiers in the attack or on the attack on the 8th of August

Page 14113

1 in Jezestica?

2 A. No. Only those two groups.

3 Q. Are you aware that Andrici was also part of the attack on the 8th

4 of August as was Zaluzje?

5 A. Andrici is very part from this part of Jezestica. It was

6 impossible to know that. It's about 25 kilometres away, which is really

7 far.

8 Q. And did you know that Zaluzje was part of the attacks that

9 occurred on the 8th of August?

10 A. That's also far from where I was. I really don't know.

11 Q. Fine.

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, if I could have some very short video

13 clips be shown at this time using Sanctions. Your Honour, the clips come

14 from Prosecution Exhibit 328 and 329.

15 Q. Sir, I would ask you to look at the screen.

16 [Videotape played]

17 "And then I remembered something else again, when we did this --

18 whether we did this on the same day as that, the units that were around

19 Bljeceva and Cizmici and Pale and Glogova, that is the unit from Glogova,

20 at that time there were already quite a lot of people from Glogova who

21 were armed. They had the task that with the help of people from Konjevic

22 Polje, Nurif Rizvanovic, and together with -- I'm sorry, with the help of

23 Nurif Rizvanovic, that is Nurif, N-u-r-i-f, Rizvanovic, R-i-z-a-n-o-v-i-c,

24 who had come from Tuzla with 400 armed fighters. They had the task of

25 entering Glogova. In other words, that they -- they go through

Page 14114

1 Siljkovici, is it Siljkovici? And -- okay. And Jezestica. Okay. So by

2 attacking through the hill, mountain of Siljkovici, that's

3 S-i-l-j-k-o-v-i-c-i, and the hamlet of Jezestica, that's

4 J-e-z-e-s-t-i-c-a, that they would then enter Glogova. So they were

5 supposed to carry out a breakthrough so that on the same day that we went

6 into Zalazje, that they would go into Glogova."


8 Q. I have just one technical question. That was very dark on one of

9 the screens and it was lighter on another one of our screens. I just want

10 to know, sir, were you able to see the people in the video clearly?

11 A. With difficulty. It's dark.

12 MS. SELLERS: I don't know if any of the technical assistants

13 could help us on that on the next upcoming video clip.

14 Your Honour, in terms of expediency I'll continue to move along

15 because I am concerned with what was said.

16 Q. And sir, can I confirm that you were able to clearly hear what was

17 said?

18 A. Yes. As for my statement, it coincides more or less with what is

19 said here, but the only difference is that from Jezestica they attacked

20 Ejub Golic before that and he asked for assistance from Nurif Rizvanovic

21 so he went up there to help. And one more thing, at Siljkovici, I didn't

22 hear any special fighting but, well ...

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sometimes if the -- whoever is looking at the

25 monitor changes position, either the position of the monitor or of himself

Page 14115

1 or herself, you can actually see much clearer then. The same happens with

2 our monitors. If you move them down, they -- whatever -- whatever you

3 have on the monitor becomes clearer and less dark. So in the meantime,

4 while the necessary adjustments are being made, the witness can be

5 addressed to try and do that.

6 Yes, Ms. Vidovic?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this part of the

8 interpretation is obviously not good. In the interpretation, I would like

9 this to be played gone to the witness. What is said is "groups with Nurif

10 Rizvanovic." However, in the Bosnian original, the person speaking

11 says, "Led by Nurif Rizvanovic," which is something quite different. The

12 interpretation of this part is rather poor. That's why I would like the

13 witness to hear again what is said in the clip.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: The entire clip or part of it?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The part where Nurif Rizvanovic is

16 mentioned.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's try and locate.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, prior to doing that, can we just ask

19 the assistance of the usher to see if his screen is adjusted so that it's

20 visible to him.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Then I think if the monitor that he has is not

22 adjustable, I think he himself has to move either nearer, see if you

23 can -- by moving nearer, you can have a better -- better view. Is it any

24 better?

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I suggest we start playing the clip.

Page 14116

1 Therefore the --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. All right. But in the meantime, he is

3 seeing me on the screen.

4 [Videotape played]

5 "And then I remembered something else again. When we -- when we

6 did this [unintelligible], on the same day as that, the units that were

7 around Bljeceva and Cizmici and Pale and Glogova, that is the unit from

8 Glogova, at that time there were already quite a lot of people from

9 Glogova who were armed, they had the task that with the help of people

10 from Konjevic Polje, Nurif Rizvanovic" --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, please. Yes, Ms. Vidovic?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one could clearly hear

13 "with the assistance of the people from Konjevic Polje, led by Nurif

14 Rizvanovic, or rather headed by Nurif Rizvanovic, and not, "with Nurif

15 Rizvanovic" as it has been interpreted here.

16 Do you agree, Witness, that this is entirely different?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if I just might interject. I

19 appreciate Ms. Vidovic helping us with the interpretation of that word,

20 and the question has already been posed by Ms. Vidovic to the witness as

21 to what was his understanding. The Prosecution certainly will state that

22 if that is the case, we have no problem.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have any problem either, if that is the

24 case; but we are in the in a position to confirm. But it seems that the

25 witness does agree with Ms. Vidovic.

Page 14117


2 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's -- do we need to proceed further with -- I

3 don't think we need to proceed further with the --

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- with the video clip so you can put your question,

6 Ms. Sellers.

7 MS. SELLERS: Right.

8 Q. Sir, did you hear in the video clip and understand that group or

9 persons from Pale and Bljeceva were tasked to help the people from

10 Konjevic Polje and Glogova in the attack in Jezestica?

11 A. Yes. That is what I've heard. However, I've already indicated

12 that Ejub Golic had among his men some from Bljeceva and Pale. They were

13 members of his group. During the attack involving Ejub Golic and Nurif

14 Rizvanovic and their men, that some other groups had been joining their

15 forces, this is something I have never heard before.

16 Q. And I would just ask you, do you recognise anyone on the video?

17 I'm not completely clear about how clear your video was but did you

18 recognise anyone on the video?

19 A. I can tell you that I haven't really recognised anyone. I did my

20 best but I was unable to recognise anyone. It wasn't very clear, the

21 footage.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would now like to proceed with the

24 next video clip.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Sellers.

Page 14118

1 Witness, try to adjust your position as much as you can by coming

2 nearer.

3 [Videotape played]

4 "On hearing that -- on hearing that Nurif Rizvanovic -- yeah,

5 couriers were sent on to the free territory of Srebrenica, that is when

6 they had broken through the Chetnik ambush, when they had got to the local

7 districts of Potocari, that is to the municipality of Srebrenica, that is

8 before Nurif Rizvanovic had set off through the forest to get to

9 Srebrenica. He contacted -- made contact via the radio station on Livade

10 the radio station on Livade with Ejub Golic, that he would then come, and

11 that the army should expect him up there. When the courier got there, we

12 already parts of -- [unintelligible] some of the soldiers with him. And

13 then when the courier told Ejub that Nurif had fallen into a Chetnik

14 ambush, and that he had 400 fighters with him who had come from Tuzla,

15 that they all had camouflage uniforms, they all had Kalashnikovs, they all

16 had all [unintelligible] ammunition, and they had infantry weapons but

17 they had the complete, full set of infantry weapons. He then had -- he

18 then had [unintelligible] and so went around to -- so before -- they went

19 around to attack [unintelligible], Jezestica. Okay, so before he went to

20 attack Jezestica, he sent a courier to Mirhet [phoen] Halilovic --"


22 Q. I'd like to ask just a question or two on this part. Were you

23 aware that Nurif Rizvanovic and his soldiers had gotten into the Potocari

24 locale while preparing and while undertaking this attack to Jezestica,

25 because of an ambush?

Page 14119

1 A. No. I wasn't aware of that.

2 Q. And your testimony before certainly indicated to the Trial Chamber

3 that you were unaware of any communication that Nurif Rizvanovic had

4 brought with him from Tuzla. After looking at this clip would you allow

5 for the possibility that Nurif Rizvanovic's group, himself, being

6 well-equipped, had brought or had the use of communications materials

7 during this attack in Jezestica? Would you allow for that possibility,

8 sir?

9 A. No. I would not accept that simply because I know nothing about

10 it. I know nothing about the communications-related matters.

11 Q. And could I then assume that because of your lack of knowledge of

12 communication matters, you would not be able to comment on the several

13 references to couriers going between Nurif Rizvanovic's group or soldiers

14 and other groups within the Potocari region?

15 A. I definitely don't know anything about this.

16 Q. Do you know or did you know of someone named Mirzet Halilovic?

17 A. No, no. I don't really.

18 Q. When you arrived yourself in Srebrenica after the fall of Konjevic

19 Polje, did you ever hear anyone speak about a Mirsad [phoen] Halilovic?

20 A. No. I didn't ever. I can tell you that I was located at the

21 entrance to Srebrenica, next to the UN compound there, and I did not

22 really inquire about who was doing what where.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, right now if I would be able to go to

25 the next video clip with this witness?

Page 14120

1 Q. Sir I ask you again to look at your screen and to adjust it if

2 it's not clear.

3 [Videotape played]

4 " [Unintelligible] He said that before he carried out -- before

5 he went to do this attack on Jeretica [phoen], he sent a courier to Senad

6 Skobic [phoen], a courier to Senad Golubovic, that's S-e-n-a-d

7 G-o-l-u-b-o-v-i-c. He had replaced Mirzet who had left to become the head

8 of the military police. He had troops who had been in Pale, and he said

9 that he was going to attack Jeretica and as many soldiers as he had, he

10 should also send to attack. And that Nurif had fallen into an ambush and

11 that they had to attack the [unintelligible] above. Given that these --

12 it wasn't very far away, it was close - excuse me - they got there very

13 soon, after about an hour and a half or two hours, where Ejub carried out

14 a very strong attack in the area of Jeretica and when Nurif in the same

15 way attacked Siljkovici, but he wasn't able to take the whole hill because

16 the top of the hill was very exposed. They got about halfway up and then

17 they had to withdraw, and they had to withdraw back towards Konjevic

18 Polje. But Ejub Golic, together with the help of Senad Golubovic and his

19 fighters, succeeded in taking the line of Jeretica, carry out a lightning

20 action and then return. In other words, what they do is they collect the

21 arms and ammunition and they go back to where they were. There was no

22 point in keeping that line, in holding that line.

23 "How long is that story going to go on for?

24 "That's the end of the story. I just wanted to say that this was

25 happening on the same day that I took Zalazje. After that, Nurif again

Page 14121

1 tried to break through and succeeded in coming with his troops, and then

2 these troops were deployed according to the places where they lived. Some

3 went to on the line at Likari some stayed with Ejub Golic, and Nurif

4 Rizvanovic, seeing that how things were in town itself, that there was

5 nothing there, returned to Konjevic Polje. And from Konjevic Polje, went

6 to Kamenica, then from Kamenica, the Chetnik offensive started and we'll

7 talk about that later. We'll talk about the arrest of Nurif and

8 [unintelligible] Brdo --"


10 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you now, did you recognise anyone in the

11 video or the voice of anyone in the video, if you take those two parts

12 separately?

13 A. Yes. I believe that the man who is talking right there is

14 Mr. Naser Oric, although I cannot be 100 per cent sure.

15 Q. Did you know of or hear about a man called Senad Golubovic that's

16 referred to in this video?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Sir, do you agree with me that the Potocari, Potocari and the

19 Potocari locale, is near Srebrenica?

20 A. Not that close to Srebrenica, really, some five to six kilometres

21 away.

22 Q. And would you also agree that Pale and Bljeceva are in that

23 locale?

24 A. I got to know about Pale and Bljeceva only upon my arrival to

25 Srebrenica, because I went up there in search for food for my family.

Page 14122

1 They were with me. The two villages are not that close either, although

2 they are in close proximity of each other.

3 Q. And also I'd like to ask you a question because I think I might

4 have misled you. I talked about the attack on the same day as Zaluzje and

5 I should have said Zalazje. Did you hear about an attack on the 8th of

6 August in Zalazje?

7 A. No. I didn't hear about that.

8 Q. When you arrived in Srebrenica or possibly prior to that, did you

9 also know that other places such as Susnjari, Orici, Ogosia [phoen] were

10 in that locale in the area of Srebrenica?

11 A. I haven't understood your question.

12 Q. I think it -- I'm certain it might have to do with my

13 pronunciation.

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if we might, I would like to see if the

15 witness could be given the map? I think that might assist us.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means.

17 MS. SELLERS: I'm talking about Defence --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's show the witness map D908, please.


20 Q. Sir, could you look at the map, if we put it on the ELMO, please?

21 Thank you. And could you locate the towns that we are speaking of, Pale,

22 Bljeceva, Gostilj?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Slowly, Ms. Sellers.

24 I think what needs to be done first is to zoom in the area of

25 Srebrenica because these villages are not far away from there, in any

Page 14123

1 case. So, yes, more or less, more or less we need to zoom in, but please

2 move the map towards the left. Yeah, okay. Now you can zoom in and it

3 will be better.

4 Can you see Potocari over there to the north of Srebrenica? Yes.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Sellers, please.

7 MS. SELLERS: Right.

8 Q. Could you please mark Pale on the map?

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Now, could you mark Susnjari?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Look at Potocari, sir, and move at 10 hours,

12 yes. Okay.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: Your Honour, simply to say that, with this witness, we

16 would object to him being led as far as locations are concerned, if the

17 point is to show he knows where they are, and -- because surely that's the

18 point of the exercise.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's a good point, Mr. Jones.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I believe the point of the exercise is

21 just to show that they are in the locale of Potocari and Srebrenica.

22 MR. JONES: Then you don't need a witness for that.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but you put the questions along those lines,

24 to establish where these places are on the map, in any case, when we could

25 actually locate them ourselves.

Page 14124

1 So let's get over with this exercise, Mr. Jones, and finish it and

2 continue with the proper evidence.

3 MS. SELLERS: Right.

4 Q. Sir, could you find Pecista? I'm sorry, could you also mark

5 Pecista on the map?

6 A. Yes. [Marks]

7 Q. Yes. And also I would ask you to mark Gostilj, G-o-s-t-i-l-j,

8 Gostilj.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you. And then finally Lehovici 9.53.15, please.?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Thank you very much. Now, sir, my question to you is that either

13 at this time period in August of 1992 or after, when you moved to

14 Srebrenica, were you aware that there were fighters that were coming from

15 these towns, this area, in the locale of Srebrenica?

16 A. No. I didn't know anything about this. I've already told you

17 that in 1992, there was no communication whatsoever between Srebrenica and

18 Konjevic Polje, and I didn't know of the existence of any fighters over

19 there, whether there were any.

20 Q. Sir, when you reached Srebrenica in 1993, did you on that occasion

21 learn about fighters from Srebrenica, from these different areas?

22 A. I've already told you that I didn't know about any fighters. I

23 heard about the existence of some groups in Konjevic Polje but that was

24 all.

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'd like to have the witness be shown

Page 14125

1 Prosecution -- well, first it has ERN number - it will be a new exhibit -

2 03721259. Your Honour, this is a list of soldiers for commendation from

3 the Potocari Brigade. It's a list of soldiers for commendation from the

4 Potocari Brigade. That's the title of the document. And it consists of

5 numbered names of 51, plus additional names written in the document. It's

6 signed by Brigade's record keeper, Nukic, Muhmed [phoen] or Mumed Nukic.

7 And in addition it has several names that one could number up to 62.

8 Q. Sir, I would ask you to look at this document, and you will note

9 that some of the persons listed under this document have died, have been

10 killed, and under the latest are persons who were killed in -- I believe

11 in 1993.

12 My question to you after looking at the document and seeing the

13 list of different companies and groups can you still state that -- even

14 upon moving to Srebrenica, that you did not hear of fighters coming from

15 these different groups under the Potocari Brigade?

16 A. I still claim that I didn't hear anything about it.

17 Q. Did you ever hear about Naser's men or boys or the group that

18 Naser Oric led coming from Potocari?

19 A. I heard about Naser Oric, some definite information about him only

20 in 1994, so the entire 1993 passed without me knowing of him.

21 Q. Did you know that there were a group of fighters from Potocari or

22 referred to as the Potocari group or Naser's group?

23 A. That's quite possible but I didn't know of it.

24 Q. Sir, in your experience as a military person, have you ever heard

25 the term -- excuse me right now, we can take the document from the witness

Page 14126

1 and I would ask for a P number, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this document which consists of one typewritten

3 page with some handwritten names and marks, and three, four pages typed,

4 typewritten in English, being the translation of the Serbo-Croat version

5 is being tendered and marked as Prosecution Exhibit P.

6 THE REGISTRAR: P596, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: P596. Thank you.


9 Q. Sir, I was about to ask you, in your experience as a military

10 person, having served in the army, have you ever heard the term "war path"

11 used before?

12 A. I didn't hear of it.

13 Q. Was it important during times of armed conflict to note down the

14 members of the group or unit, brigade or company, who were present and

15 those who were deceased because of actions, in your experience as a

16 military person?

17 A. Yes. This is something that should be done where the conditions

18 permit it, but based on the situation we were in, I don't think something

19 like that could have been done. We did not simply have the circumstances

20 in place for it.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

22 sentence? The interpreter didn't hear.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, could you please repeat your last

24 sentence because the interpreters didn't hear you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that, the conditions

Page 14127

1 permitting, such records can be kept. However, it was impossible for us

2 to have something of the sort. These were very small groups and I don't

3 believe that any records were really kept. Such records ought to be

4 normally signed and a stamp should be affixed to them.


6 Q. Sir you would agree that where conditions permit, records such as

7 participation, deaths of soldiers, their belonging to groups, should be

8 kept. That's your testimony, I believe. Right, sir?

9 A. Yes. This is something that normally ought to be done but we did

10 not have the circumstances permitting us to do so.

11 Q. And under normal circumstances, would some person or persons be

12 assigned to keep such records?

13 A. I haven't heard about that.

14 Q. Sir, maybe you misunderstood my question. Under normal

15 circumstances, would someone, or a person, from a unit usually be assigned

16 to keep such records, such personnel records, as to who belonged to a

17 unit, who might have been deceased during an action?

18 MR. JONES: Your Honour?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones?

20 MR. JONES: As I understand it, these questions are being asked in

21 this witness's capacity as someone who merely did his military service.

22 If the only question, really, which I understand Ms. Sellers to be

23 legitimately putting is in the system of the JNA before the war, was this

24 the practice, otherwise it's so general and so vague, I don't see how the

25 witness can possibly answer. He's been very clear that this was

Page 14128

1 impossible during the war. So I understand, and perhaps Ms. Sellers can

2 clarify, this is before the war in the JNA, was this the practice.

3 MS. SELLERS: I would certainly appreciate the intervention by

4 Defence counsel, but I think there is no reason, given this witness's

5 testimony, that's testified about things during this war, who has

6 testified about his experience during this war, his experience after this

7 war, the accumulation of his military experience it allows him to look at

8 different things during there war, whether it be artillery or whether it

9 be what would be normal practice, not normal practice. My question goes

10 in that vein and, no, I'm not relating this necessarily back to JNA

11 practice, Your Honour. So I think the witness can answer the question.

12 I'm merely confirming one of the answers he gave. I don't think he's

13 confused.

14 MR. JONES: Your Honour, that's the problem with the notion of

15 normal practice. What does that refer to? If the witness has said that

16 in his experience this was impossible during the war, then obviously it

17 wasn't normal practice. So I don't understand what normal practice refers

18 to. It's utterly vague.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: With the disbandment of the JNA, the creation of the

20 Serbian Republic, basically, the circumstances, the situation was no

21 longer normal. So you can barely speak of normal circumstances after that

22 happened and when the war started.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this witness has indicated - excuse

24 me - to us that he then became part of a military organisation that

25 exercised normal practice. So therefore he might draw on that experience

Page 14129

1 as he's been asked to draw on other experience on other things.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: He's also told you that when that happened the

3 circumstances were such that it would not permit any of this taking place.

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that's why my question goes to the

5 extent --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, I don't know where it will lead you in any

7 case.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm just asking, to the extent possible

9 he would agree that that's something that should be done. And I believe

10 that the witness has already confirmed that, number one.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But to do that, because I think Mr. Jones's

12 intervention was fit and proper. Basically, what would you expect the

13 witness to understand by normal circumstances? Under normal

14 circumstances?

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because ultimately, normal circumstances in those

17 circumstances, would have been the circumstances obtaining prior to the

18 war, not during the war. During the war there were no normal

19 circumstances. He's told you that the circumstances were such that they

20 probably didn't even have paper.

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, he hasn't stated that they didn't have

22 paper and I haven't asked him that, but what I would like to clarify then

23 is that, if the question is normal circumstances they don't necessarily

24 relate back to the JNA, okay?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You can ask the witness that; you're perfectly

Page 14130

1 entitled to. But at the end of the day where's it going to take you?

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour at the end of the day I hope it takes me

3 to a vital point.

4 Q. Sir, you said it would be correct to take different records and

5 different notes and you also testified that in your circumstances in

6 Konjevic Polje that you were unaware that this occurred. Am I correct in

7 that characterisation of your testimony?

8 A. Yes. I listened to your questions and to His Honour and everybody

9 else, and my conclusion is as follows: If you're asking me about my

10 experience in the JNA, yes, of course, this was kept. If you're asking me

11 about the war in 1992, and onwards, the conditions did not exist, not to

12 mention paper. We had nothing at our disposal that would enable us to do

13 that.

14 Q. But you would allow for the possibility that other groups who were

15 fighting might have attempted to keep records of who was killed in action,

16 soldiers who were killed in action, persons who belonged to units or

17 persons who were wounded?

18 A. I didn't learn anything about that.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But the question is -- has another connotation.

20 Would you exclude that possibility? This is what ultimately Ms. Sellers

21 wants from you. Granted that as far as you are concerned and your group

22 is concerned, you are not in a position to do this, would you concede that

23 it might have been possible with regard to other groups? This is what she

24 is asking you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know, the

Page 14131

1 other groups were similar to mine. In other words, it would have been

2 impossible to keep records on the entire territory of Konjevic Polje.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. He's back to you, Ms. Sellers.


5 Q. Sir, one of the important details that might be kept during

6 wartime would be the different attacks or the different defensive

7 mechanisms that a group or unit participated in. Would you agree with

8 that?

9 A. I didn't understand you very well. Could you please repeat your

10 question?

11 Q. Certainly, certainly.

12 One of the important types of records to keep or information to

13 keep during a war would be the different attacks or defensive actions that

14 a group or unit participated in. Would you agree with that?

15 A. I wouldn't agree with you because we didn't have the conditions to

16 do that.

17 Q. And when you say, "we," you're referring to Konjevic Polje, that

18 group, correct, sir?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And again, you don't exclude the possibility that other groups

21 might have had at least the conditions to keep some of that information on

22 a recorded basis or to write it down?

23 A. No. I wouldn't say that, no, I --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: To me, this is not a clear answer. What do you mean

25 by saying "no, I wouldn't say that, no"? Do you exclude the possibility

Page 14132

1 or do you concede that there could be possibly other groups that could --

2 that operated in conditions where they could keep such information on

3 record?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I don't know, I exclude it

5 from my knowledge entirely. I don't know that they were.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that's clear enough.

7 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour. That's fine. I would like

8 the witness to be shown document ERN number 03720964. If it could be

9 placed on the ELMO this time, please?

10 Q. Sir, I would ask you to look over the document, and for the record

11 I'll state that it is a document of two pages, on the back side of the

12 first page we have writing in Cyrillic on there. It is a typed document

13 entitled, "War path of Potocari Brigade, more important dates."

14 Sir, I would ask you to look down at the different dates and under

15 the 1st of June 1992, do you see the name of Ejub Golic?

16 A. Yes. I see it.

17 Q. Going further down where it says, 8th of August 1992, the first

18 time it says 8th of August 1992, it says, "Action, Andrici, Jezestica,

19 unsuccessful." Does the -- sir, would you state for the record whether

20 you see that or not?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Sir, does this coincide with your testimony in part that Jezestica

23 on the 8th of August was the scene of combat activity?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, sir, also, you've testified that on the 7th of January, that

Page 14133

1 there was other actions, combat actions, in Jezestica; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Also, would you look further down where it says the 8th of August,

4 1992, just two entries down from the previous one, where it

5 says, "Sabotage in Zaluzje and transport vehicle destroyed."

6 A. Yes, I see it.

7 Q. My question is, sir, did you -- does this confirm what we've heard

8 on the videotape about the attacks on the 8th of August, included

9 Jezestica action, Andrici and Zaluzje?

10 A. I have already told you that Zaluzje and the area up there was

11 very far away, and I knew nothing about it. As for Jezestica, I said that

12 the fighting up there.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat, please, because the

14 interpreter did not hear the last word.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sir, the interpreters didn't catch the last

16 part of your reply. You said "as for Jezestica, I said that the fighting

17 up there," and then you said something else which they couldn't follow.

18 What was it?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said about Jezestica, Your Honour,

20 that I heard fighting up there, and when Nurif's fighters returned, this

21 was confirmed.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir.

23 Ms. Vidovic?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Zaluzje was not

25 mentioned at all on the video clip.

Page 14134

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think what was mentioned in the video clip was

2 Zalazje and not Zaluzje.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I stand corrected. I understand that,

4 because I even made a point of it myself.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Vidovic is correct. These are two different

6 places, Zalazje being the one which had great strategic importance.


8 Q. Sir I would just ask you to go over to the second page and you

9 see, under the 7th of January, what is legible action in Kravica. Does

10 this coincide with your testimony that there was combat activity on the

11 7th of January 1993 in Kravica?

12 A. Yes, yes. There was combat activity.

13 Q. And sir, I would ask you to note that on the dates of the 9th of

14 May, the 27th of May, and on the 16th to the 20th of January 1993, the

15 term "cleansing" is used. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what

16 would "cleansing" mean in a military sense in relationship to these

17 actions, if you know?

18 A. If you could correct what you said, the 9th of May, no, it was the

19 9th of March. Unless it was misinterpreted.

20 Q. Sir, on the document that I have it says page 2, I have 9th of

21 May.

22 MS. SELLERS: It may have been a misinterpretation, Your Honour?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: 9th of May, and I think you have to go also 27th of

24 May, and then on the next page, it is -- I lost that. It's from the 16th

25 to 20th, I suppose, of January, again, cleansing of the region, whatever

Page 14135

1 it was. But you're being asked to explain the meaning of "cleansing,"

2 which occurs also in the part dealing with the 14th, 15th, and 16th of

3 December, regards cleansing of Voljavica, Bjelovac, Kunjarac, Sase,

4 Andrici. What do you understand, if at all, by the term "cleansing" in

5 military terms?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as regards the

7 word "cleansing", cleansing of the territory, liberating the territory, to

8 make it free, but I don't agree that I should comment on this because I'm

9 not familiar with that territory. This was in Srebrenica municipality.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not being asked to comment on the events as

11 such. You're just being asked to tell us whether you are familiar with

12 the term "cleansing" and what you understand by it.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cleansing of the territory in the

14 area, the word speaks for itself in the document.

15 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser has a question.

17 JUDGE ESER: I have a question with regard to language. I think

18 the Bosnian term is [B/C/S spoken], [B/C/S spoken]. Now, this term,

19 [B/C/S spoken], is it also used when people talk of ethnic cleansing or

20 would you use in your own language a different term?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know whether one can

22 speak of ethnic cleansing here. There is some kind of cleansing, but what

23 kind of cleansing, I really couldn't explain in detail.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think he's understood you.

25 JUDGE ESER: I think you did not completely understand my

Page 14136

1 question. I guess you are aware that [unintelligible] it's not the

2 question now -- that there has been ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina

3 in those years. Now, if you would speak of ethnic cleansing, would you use

4 the same term as is used here in terms -- sense of [B/C/S spoken] or would

5 you have a different term? That was my question.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no other word, only the

7 word that's written here.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones?

9 MR. JONES: Yes, I'm afraid that that last answer is bound to be

10 confusing. Obviously there is one word for cleansing, but the word for

11 ethnic cleansing is obviously ethnic cleansing, and otherwise it might be

12 understood that cleansing means ethnic cleansing. I hope that's not the

13 suggestion.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I don't believe that was in any way my

16 suggestion.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, it was never the suggestion. Let's

18 proceed.

19 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. I mean, you don't need to --

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask for a P number for this

21 exhibit, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers. This will become Prosecution

23 Exhibit P597 and it consists of a -- one-page in the Bosnian and Bosnian

24 language and one handwritten page and then two typewritten pages, all of

25 which are translated into English, the English text consisting of three

Page 14137

1 pages.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm trying to move rapidly through this

3 and I would ask that now the witness be shown the next document, and

4 that's with ERN number 04231845. Your Honour, this is a document that is

5 handwritten. It consists of 54 pages, of which on the last page there is

6 not -- does not appear to be handwriting. I'm referring to it for

7 convenience sake as a type of military diary, although I do not state for

8 the record that that is the title of this document. I would also like to

9 state that in the B/C/S, this document appears to start in the middle of a

10 page and that, if Your Honours also look closely, there seems to be

11 several different individual handwriting on the page and it appears to

12 have been written on some form of a notebook.

13 Q. Sir, I have a couple of questions I would like to ask you in

14 relationship to things in this document. On the first page, at the top,

15 the first page of B/C/S, there is a name that says, "Zakir Salilovic

16 [phoen]" And next to it, it says, "Zenga".

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour if we could have this placed on the

18 ELMO, it might be helpful.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's place the English text on the ELMO, please.

20 The top of the page, first four lines, is what we are talking about.


22 Q. Sir, wasn't it your testimony that some of soldiers who were with

23 Nurif Rizvanovic were referred to as "Zengas" when they returned to

24 Bosnia? Is that correct?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic?

Page 14138

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said

2 nothing remotely similar to that. The question was, was the Croatian army

3 known as the Zengas? That's what the witness was talking about. There

4 was no mention of Nurif's men.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. No it was in relation to some of Nurif

6 Rizvanovic's men. In fact -- we can ask, we can go to the transcript and

7 he was asked with regard to the ex-Croat component in his army, how they

8 were known, and he referred to them as Zengas. So we can, without any

9 problems, if you can find the transcript, easily, we can go back to this

10 part of his testimony and refresh his memory.

11 Do you have the quick reference, Ms. Vidovic -- Ms. Sellers?

12 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I did have it marked. Permit me one

13 sec.

14 MR. JONES: I found a reference here, it's on the 23rd of November

15 and it's page 17, line 14, "Witness, the people who belonged to the

16 Croatian armed forces before the outbreak of the war in Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina, were they known under the name of 'Zenga'?"

18 "Yes. I heard them being called Zengas on several occasions."

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but then he continues to speak about the

20 components, of the Croatian component in Nurif Rizvanovic's group. He

21 even specified the number roughly of ex-combatants from Croatia and then

22 listed without naming combatants from Konjevic Polje. He did go through,

23 but let's --

24 MR. JONES: That's the reference I have on that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste for time on this.

Page 14139

1 Q. Mr. Rizvanovic, I'm sorry that's not the name -- sir, could you

2 just confirm, yes or no, that soldiers that came from Nurif Rizvanovic's

3 group, who came from Croatia, you can confirm that they were referred to

4 as "Zenga" at times?

5 A. Listening to these comments, I think I didn't mention Zengas in

6 connection with Nurif Rizvanovic, but I did say that there was a Croatian

7 army, the HVO, and the HOS. That's what I mentioned. I may have said

8 that there were Zengas with Nurif Rizvanovic but you can check that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not waste more time. He testified on these

10 when he was shown the photos of one particular soldier with the Croatian

11 army coat of arms and that he was part of Rizvanovic's group and he

12 testified on that. But let's stick to what is relevant, Ms. Sellers, and

13 move ahead.

14 MS. SELLERS: We will move on. That was a relevant part as

15 Your Honours will see in the future.

16 I would ask now that the witness go to what is page 10 in the

17 B/C/S version. And it's page 9 in the English -- I'm sorry, page 5 in the

18 English version. And I want to point out where on page 5 in the English

19 version it says, "company" and then it says "illegible," the name of the

20 company is hard to decipher. And then I would ask now that we would go to

21 page 10 in the English version, which is at the end of this section. And,

22 Your Honour, it's page 15 in the B/C/S.

23 Q. And, sir, I would draw your attention to the last line prior to

24 the heading, "Meeting held on 19th of October 1994." And on that last

25 line it says, "Until 16 October 1992, TO Potocari, our unit had the name,

Page 14140

1 company Pecista." Do you see that line, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, I would ask you to go to page 11 in the B/C/S, which is in

4 the same section of this last sentence.

5 MS. SELLERS: And Your Honours it is page 7 in the English. And

6 it's designated, I'll begin where it says "number 7." There it says --

7 Q. Sir, have you been able to locate that?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. "After the arrival of the army from Tuzla, on the 6th of August

10 1992, that army was distributed in our unit and with the units of Gostilj

11 and Dugazi [phoen]. Conditions have been reached for forming a battalion

12 of Gostilj. Pasalic Salih was appointed for the commander of the

13 battalion. Osmanovic, Haris was appointed for the commander of the

14 company Gostilj. Commander of the unit Pecista was Sinanovic Zunez

15 [phoen], and commander of the independent battalion Dugazi was Besic

16 Djosef Sruja [phoen]."

17 Sir, does this confirm -- conform with your testimony that

18 soldiers from Nurif Rizvanovic's unit then were placed in other units or

19 other fighting groups?

20 A. As I have told you, I knew about -- about 10 men with Ejub Golic.

21 As for the others, I really didn't know.

22 Q. Thank you. I'd now like you to look at number 8.

23 MS. SELLERS: And it will be my last question, Your Honour, before

24 the break.

25 Q. Right under it, and under number 8 it says, "unsuccessful action,

Page 14141

1 Andrici. From 8th August 1992 there were 50 soldiers participating in

2 this action, one soldier Ahmetovic, Ermin [phoen] got killed. There were

3 three soldiers wounded and one of them heavily by stepping on to a mine."

4 Sir, I would just ask you: Does this conform to any of your

5 knowledge about a combat action in Andrici on the 8th of August 1992?

6 A. I only know that this corresponds with Jezestica. As to Sandici I

7 really don't know.

8 Q. Did you mean to say Andrici or Sandici?

9 A. Andrici, excuse me, with Andrici. I don't know about Andrici; I

10 do know about Jezestica.

11 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, thank you. I will stop here.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you finished with this document or not yet?

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'm not finished with this document.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll give it a number when we come

15 back. May I ask you to cooperate and have a restricted break, 25 minutes,

16 not 30?

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, certainly.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, my Senior Legal Officer will approach

22 you for the meeting now. With him he will approach you later on to fix a

23 meeting with you, to discuss the future of the case. And let's hope that

24 you will come up with practical solutions.

25 The other thing I am told you wanted to know, whether we will be

Page 14142

1 sitting on Wednesday. We won't be sitting on Wednesday, so we'll try to

2 finish with this witness between today and tomorrow. See if the witness

3 has a problem. He's not --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't have any --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES: That might pose a problem then for the next witness,

7 the estimate is three and a half hours to four hours. I think I can

8 safely say that I will be no more than three and a half hours. But

9 nonetheless if I have only even let's say half an hour today and three

10 hours tomorrow, I doubt the Prosecution will undertake to cross-examine in

11 only 45 minutes. So if we -- and there are real problems with bringing

12 the witness back.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Who will be dealing, Ms. Richardson?

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And how much time do you think you would require?

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I anticipate the same amount of time

17 although I haven't heard the testimony as of yet. So I can only say at

18 first glance that I'll probably need the same amount of time, though,

19 based on what the summary provided to us, I may be much shorter.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not prepared to take risks of keeping the

21 witness, then, here in The Hague until Monday, the 5th. If that is the

22 case, we'll send him home, we'll bring him at some later point in time.

23 Unless you agree to -- how much more time do you need, Ms. Sellers?

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I informed Madam Vidovic during the

25 break I was going to definitely finish with this witness within the next

Page 14143

1 session. I was hoping possibly a half hour to 45 minutes. I think that

2 Mr. Jones would have more than a half hour with the witness today. That's

3 my intention. Of course, the best-laid plans of mice and men ...

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Still, if he needs three and a half hours or three

5 hours that would practically take the entire sitting of tomorrow. Let's

6 say it will take first session and half of the second. It would leave

7 about an hour, an hour 15 minutes, for the Prosecution for

8 cross-examination. If you are prepared to decide now to split the time in

9 a manner which would be agreeable to both, yes, we can proceed, otherwise,

10 I don't know, I have no solution.

11 MR. JONES: May I just say, Your Honour, this is where it's so

12 important that time estimates are stuck to, because we -- it was indicated

13 to us on Friday that Ms. Sellers would finish by the first break. I've

14 proofed the witness now for three days on the understanding that, of

15 course, we would be finished by the first break and I would have the

16 second break and the third session and I would have finished early

17 tomorrow. There would have been plenty of time for cross-examination;

18 everything would have been fine. And that's why we do have the impression

19 from the Prosecution that they make time estimates which do not bear any

20 resemblance to reality. And if we have to send this witness back, we're

21 not going to be able to bring him back before Christmas because we have

22 all the other witnesses lined up. It's a real -- real problem for us and

23 I really had hoped that the Prosecution would be able to stick to -- stick

24 to the time limit, and I anticipate, perhaps I'm wrong, but Ms. Sellers

25 will say that there were objections which slowed things down. Well, if

Page 14144

1 objections are valid, then that has to be factored into the time which it

2 takes to cross-examine.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers, can you finish in 30 minutes from now.

4 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think 30 minutes to 45 minutes with

5 already setting aside some evidence that we thought was crucial to

6 present, and I think in terms of factoring in objections. And I agree

7 with Mr. Jones that there has been quite a bit of oral litigation during

8 the presentation of this witness. I disagree that that has been a factor.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: There hasn't been.

10 MS. SELLERS: One half hour of my presentation on Friday was

11 devoted to oral arguments.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's continue and we see where we get to

13 and, if necessary, we will send the witness home and tomorrow we will deal

14 with the Rule 68 bis matters, instead. We will see.

15 Ms. Sellers?


17 Q. Sir, we are going to continue with the document we had before. I

18 would ask you to turn to page 29 in the B/C/S. And in the English it is

19 page 22. On page 22, you see that one-third, one-quarter of the way down

20 the page, it says, "Company, Susnjari." I would then ask that you turn to

21 page 30. In the English, we are now on page 23. At the bottom of the

22 English page, it says, "Jezestica, on the 8th of August 1992, 65 soldiers

23 participated with weapons, one M53, two PM, 12 automatic rifles,

24 semi-automatic rifles, five, 8 Gar. [phoen], one drummer machine-gun, one

25 sniper, ten LPs, six old fashioned pistols," and there is a bit that's

Page 14145

1 illegible. "The rest of them were without weapons. The action was

2 successful, burnt completely, seized one M53, one LP, there were six

3 wounded soldiers on our side and five were killed on mines. One case of

4 ammunition, M53, and 200 pieces of 7.62 millimetre ammunition, five

5 Chetniks were killed. One group was led by Sudek [phoen], and the other

6 by Valagin [phoen]."

7 Sir, again I pose the question to you: Does this conform with

8 your knowledge that there was an attack in Jezestica on the 8th of August

9 1992?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I can anticipate.

11 MR. JONES: The answer is bound to be misleading. The witness has

12 said that there was an attack. That's fine. Whether this conforms with

13 his knowledge by that means Ms Sellers means to get in all the rest of it,

14 which he hasn't confirmed.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, did I not ask him to confirm the rest

16 of it. I asked him to just confirm to his knowledge that there was an

17 attack.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already confirmed before that there was an

19 attack in Jezestica on the 8th of August. He said it. I haven't counted

20 the times he did confirm that so why do you want him to confirm it again?

21 MS. SELLERS: If he's able to Your Honour, for --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, okay. But --

23 MS. SELLERS: If not, I'll move on to another --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Then ask him whether he confirms once more that

25 there was an attack on Jezestica on -- because otherwise, Mr. Jones is

Page 14146

1 completely right. I mean, you've read out six, seven lines here giving a

2 lot of details, and then you ask whether this conforms with his statement,

3 prior statement, that there was an attack on Jezestica. Bottom line would

4 be later on, you would say, you would bring that as an argument in favour

5 of the authenticity or probative value of this document and what it

6 contains. I mean, it's -- and I think you understand me 100 per cent

7 well.

8 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I understand you 100 per cent well.

9 And given that guidance, I can certainly allow us to move a bit more

10 rapidly.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.


13 Q. Sir, then I would just ask you one question in terms of the part

14 that I've just read out, is it still your testimony that you were unaware

15 that there was burning at -- during the attack in Jezestica?

16 A. That's right. I didn't know about it.

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would then -- I now ask that this

18 document be given a P number.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document in the original Serbo-Croat version

20 is entirely handwritten. It starts with ERN number 04231845 and goes

21 through and up to 04231872 -- 72. And then it's followed by a typed

22 translation of it in English, consisting of 44 pages, typed pages, with

23 the same ERN range of numbers.

24 Yes, Ms. -- this document is being entered and marked as

25 Prosecution Exhibit P598.

Page 14147

1 Yes, Ms. Vidovic?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I noticed a while ago

3 something that I would wish to draw your attention to which is the Rule

4 90(H)(ii) provision. We had a witness here who had direct knowledge of

5 the events in Susnjari concerning the group. In accordance with Rule

6 90(H)(ii), the Prosecutor was duty-bound to put his case or her case to

7 the witness and ask him about the specific events contained herein. The

8 Prosecutor did not do it at the time but instead does it in relation to

9 this witness, who has no knowledge, but to indirectly confirm the

10 authenticity of this particular document. I believe that the Prosecutor

11 just as we are, is duty-bound to comply with the provisions under Rule

12 90(H)(ii), and this course of proceeding constitutes a direct violation

13 thereof.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if you notice, this witness's testimony

16 went to the attack on Jezestica and that I'm going through various

17 geographical groups or units that might have participated in it. In terms

18 of this document having been presented to the other witness, I would like

19 to not divulge too much work product but, Your Honour, in terms of

20 translation, in terms of analysis of Prosecution exhibits, they are not

21 necessarily available at the time that certain witnesses come. I think

22 Your Honours might certainly recognise that we are asking for a P number

23 for this document today and have not used it with any preceding witnesses

24 although that we might have had witnesses that were testifying about

25 different things that could be relevant to the document. So there has

Page 14148

1 been no violation of Rule 90(H) unless the Prosecution is duty-bound to

2 anticipate all evidence. I think that if a violation according to Madam

3 Vidovic has been made it's certainly not been made in any type of bad

4 faith, and that this witness has been asked to respond to what he could

5 testify against. And if he could not, he clearly indicated to the Trial

6 Chamber his lack of knowledge thereof.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am truly surprised.

9 This document was in their possession not only in advance of the testimony

10 of this witness but of another witness as well. I will file a written

11 filing concerning this. I do not think it is really proper for the -- my

12 learned colleagues to say something that is contrary to the truth. You

13 had this document at the time when the Susnjari group leader testified.

14 There were even a couple of questions put to him concerning this. I, in

15 fact, anticipated at the time that you would proceed the way you proceeded

16 right now, that you would not confront that particular witness with this

17 document, but would rather wait to confront a different witness with the

18 same paper. I would kindly call on my colleagues to comply with the

19 provisions of the Rules.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, with all due respect I think that the

21 last portion or one portion of my presentation is not just possession but

22 it was analysis of the document, and I said I do not want to go into work

23 product at that time, but the Prosecution certainly reserves the right

24 prior to using a document to analyse it from its point of view. And I

25 think that that is what Madam Vidovic has not taken into account in her

Page 14149

1 later argument. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Would you be following this up

3 with a proper motion or shall we move ahead, Mr. Jones.

4 MR. JONES: Yes, if I may, Your Honour, the whole issue of

5 90(H)(ii) is something we are going to definitely place great emphasis on

6 at some point in submissions. I won't undertake now to file on this

7 specific issue within a specific time, but it's a matter of great concern

8 to us that the documents and propositions are not being put to witnesses

9 to whom they should be put.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll come to that even when we are seized again

11 with it. For the time being we'll move ahead. We will discuss amongst

12 ourselves and, if we need to come back to you on this, we will. In the

13 meantime we will, of course, keep what you have submitted in our minds.

14 Yes, Ms. Sellers, please proceed.

15 MS. SELLERS: Thank you. I would like the witness now to be shown

16 document with -- the ERN number is 02116725. Your Honour, for purposes

17 this is a document that relates to the TO Gostilj Srebrenica. It has a P

18 number following the location. It appears to be a series of names and

19 members of that unit. It goes to number 76. It's a handwritten document,

20 and the Prosecution has submitted a translation and one will note that the

21 translation is a partial translation that allows those who are English

22 speakers to understand what are the headings of the different columns and

23 some of the functions attached to the names in the column.

24 Q. Witness, my question is the following: In the previous document,

25 remember there was a portion that related to some of Nurif Rizvanovic's

Page 14150

1 troops being placed in different units, different groups, including the

2 group of Gostilj. Do you remember that, sir?

3 A. I remember saying that there was -- that there was only Ejub

4 Golic's group. I don't remember any other groups.

5 Q. Sir, my question was that in the previous document that we saw,

6 there was one portion that talked about the group of Gostilj and how it

7 too would receive soldiers, persons, from Nurif Rizvanovic's group. Do

8 you remember that portion, the previous document, that's my question.

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Sir, I would draw your attention to number 19 on this list and

11 number 19 gives the name of an Azmir Midzic [phoen] - if I'm pronouncing

12 this correctly - and I would ask to you go over -- well, I'll wait until

13 you find that. I believe it's on the first page, number 19, three up from

14 the bottom.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't read it Mrgzic [phoen], I read it Merizic

16 [phoen].

17 MS. SELLERS: Merizic. Merdzic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Merdzic, M-e-r-d-z-i-c


20 Q. If you go over to the column that says --

21 A. Yes, I found it.

22 Q. "Joined TO" and follow that down to the person's name, I'm

23 wondering could this be placed on the ELMO?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The B/C/S version, Ms. Sellers? Because if you put

25 the English version, it doesn't make sense.

Page 14151

1 MS. SELLERS: I think the B/C/S version is a bit more

2 illustrative.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

4 Mr. Jones, please, your microphone.


6 Q. And, sir, if you go over to the column where it says, "joined the

7 TO," do you see 6-08-92, meaning August 6, 1992?

8 A. Yes, the 14th of August? Yes, I have it. Yes, I can see it.

9 Q. Sir, and then would you please go over three more columns where it

10 says 06-08-92?

11 A. 06?

12 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry, if the usher could assist, we are still

13 on the first page, number 19 and I'm just asking him to go over columns on

14 the line 19.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Vidovic?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm doing my best to

17 try and find where Ms. Sellers can identify the 6th of August 1992 because

18 here it says the 6th of June 1992. I think this is misleading to the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I read it as you do, Ms. Vidovic. I don't see

21 it 06-08-92. I see it 06-06. However, if we zoom in that area of the

22 document, perhaps we can see it better. We are talking of four lines from

23 the bottom of the screen now, and we need to zoom in in the third column

24 starting from the right. To me it's still 06-06-92.

25 MS. SELLERS: Then, Your Honour. I'll withdraw the question. It

Page 14152

1 appeared to be an 8 to us.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not saying that it isn't.

3 MS. SELLERS: I don't -- I don't -- I -- my impression is an 8.

4 In trying to follow through.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sellers.

6 MS. SELLERS: But, Your Honour, I will withdraw the question.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: If you look at the last -- one but last column where

8 you have those two-digit numbers plus a letter and you look at the 8 that

9 is written there, 81, 82, 83, et cetera. There is no way you can say that

10 the previous column 06, the next would be 08. To mean it's 06-06-92.

11 There is no similarity between that second digit in the middle with the 8

12 that show us up in the penultimate column. I may be wrong. I don't

13 want --

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I won't belabour the point, because I

15 certainly think that it's a possibility that that's an 8, in comparing

16 even to the handwriting in the last column, whether that was made slightly

17 different. But I will withdraw the question from the witness. I do not

18 intend to try and mislead the witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I'm sure you were not trying to mislead the

20 witness but -- okay, let's go ahead.


22 Q. So, I would also ask to you look at this document under the second

23 column, meaning where the names are, and starting with number 1, 2 and 3,

24 do you see the functions of persons under the names?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 14153

1 Q. Under line number 3, do you see the function that says, "Guard

2 commander"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then on 4 through 23, do you see the function that

5 says, "Soldier"?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, he's to remain on the same page.


8 Q. Do you see that, sir?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, on number 24, do you see the designation that

11 says, "Soldier, quartermaster"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell Your Honours what would be a quartermaster in your

14 experience in the military?

15 A. Quartermaster's service is supposed to perform its duties in the

16 rear, as part of the logistic support.

17 Q. Thank you. Sir, if you would continue down to number 28, do you

18 see the word, "Courier"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then afterwards, on 29 and 30, do you see the word "cook"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I would ask you to go to the two names next to cook and could you

23 confirm for the Trial Chamber whether those are the names of women or the

24 names of moan?

25 A. Those are female names.

Page 14154

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

2 MR. JONES: Your Honour, May i just say, and I don't know if the

3 witness has been tested on his eyesight or his ability to read what's in

4 front of him. I don't know if there are any meaningful questions which

5 the -- Ms. Sellers actually has for this witness about this document, or

6 whether we just have an extended submission or demonstration for

7 Your Honours which really is a matter of submission. I've been listening

8 for the last five minutes to see if there is a meaningful question for

9 this witness which he can tell us about TO Gostilj and people here, and

10 there isn't. It's simply, do you see this, do you see that, and I really

11 -- particularly when we are so short of time I despair a bit that we are

12 going to lease so much time when there is no meaningful question for this

13 witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I would rather wait, Mr. Jones, and see what would

15 be the final question on this document.

16 MS. SELLERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. And then, sir, I would ask you to look at number 31, and that goes

18 down through, I believe, number 39, where the word "guard" is listed.

19 A. Yes, I see it.

20 Q. Now, in the testimony that you've given us before, you've

21 testified that in your area that persons acted as guards to guard the

22 front line; isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And would you have considered those guards, persons who functioned

25 as guards, as part of the groups that you had in Konjevic Polje?

Page 14155

1 A. Members of the group in my village, that is, the question you put

2 before, not soldiers but armed men who were defending their villages.

3 Q. And, sir, in the list that we've gone through, you've noticed that

4 there are couriers, a courier has been listed. Now, you've testified that

5 you didn't know about couriers or you didn't have any couriers in your

6 group. If there had been couriers in your group, would that be a normal

7 function or would that be a military function within fighting groups or

8 units?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't understand.

10 MS. SELLERS: Let me rephrase that.

11 Q. Would it be unusual to have couriers in groups in order to take

12 messages?

13 A. It would be unusual if it was in the military sense. As this was

14 not in the military sense because these were groups defending their hearth

15 and home and their children. In my group there were no couriers. But if

16 there was an attack launched by the other side there had to be people who

17 would go and ask for assistance, to help defend the territory.

18 Q. Those people might be referred to as couriers; isn't that correct,

19 sir?

20 A. That's not correct. You misunderstood this. You have completely

21 misunderstood this. You keep talking about couriers, but if a courier is

22 someone who is at the line and he has to run and tell someone something

23 urgently, he's not a courier. He has to abandon his position on the line

24 in order to go and run to ask for assistance.

25 Q. Thank you for that explanation. So there is a difference between

Page 14156

1 people who run for help and people who would take messages as a courier.

2 As I understand, that's your testimony?

3 A. Of course, yes.

4 Q. Thank you. That's clarified now.

5 And I would just have one other question concerning this document,

6 and, sir, at the very beginning of the document, under number 3 there is a

7 guard commander. Do you know what the function of a guard commander would

8 be in a unit or in a fighting group?

9 MR. JONES: Sorry, I think we have to talk about whether this is

10 the JNA we are talking about or in some theoretical concept which the

11 witness is asked to imagine. I mean surely the witness has a right to

12 have concrete questions put to him. What unit, what fighting group, when,

13 where?

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I think that --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: When you speak of a guard commander, because I am

16 not familiar with military structures as some of you might be, would this

17 be something which is universal? A guard commander? Or is it something

18 that is particular to the -- I don't know, to the armed forces,

19 ex-Yugoslavia? I don't know.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, this is precisely part of the nature of

21 my question. We see this here, the witness has testified about certain

22 military matters, and I see this function "guard commander." He's also

23 testified about having worked in the border service, about guards, having

24 guards within Konjevic Polje, and I just felt that he would be in a

25 position to allow us possibly to understand guard commander as contained

Page 14157

1 in this document. That certainly is about a unit in a geographical

2 location that we've already discussed.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Then ask him whether he's familiar with the term

4 guard commander in a military context, and what he understands with that

5 term, and any other question that may arise out of that answer.

6 MR. JONES: And since Gostilj -- since Ms. Sellers said it's about

7 this document, the guard commander fled to here, he should be asked

8 whether Gostilj TO, whether he understands what was meant in that

9 document.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already stated that he never heard of Gostilj

11 TO.

12 MR. JONES: That's why this exercise is so useful.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I would, I would --

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if Defence counsel would continue

15 through -- in front of this witness, I believe try and align the questions

16 that he's being asked, I think it's unproductive in terms of the testimony

17 this witness can give. The question I asked I believe it has now gone up

18 on the monitor was precisely in the nature of what Your Honour put forward

19 of what is a -- what is a guard commander. I believe I asked "if in a

20 unit." In the military context what could be a guard commander. If we

21 would not have a characterisation of a question to that extent prior to

22 the witness responding, I think it would be much more helpful timewise and

23 evidentiary wise.

24 Q. Sir, could you assist the Trial Chamber, if you know, of what a

25 guard commander could be in the military context [microphone not

Page 14158

1 activated] unit?

2 A. In the military context, a guard commander or a guard shift leader

3 is someone who is in charge of the guard and takes the guards' shift to

4 their post. That's in peacetime. However, in these wartime conditions,

5 if you're asking me about that, to be a guard -- to be a leader of a group

6 in those areas, the leaders of those groups didn't have -- didn't command

7 really. They had guards in those places where I was in wartime

8 conditions. And they themselves stood guard.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would ask that a P number be

11 attributed to this document, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers, this document which consists of

13 four pages, handwritten pages in B/C/S, with ERN 02116725 to and inclusive

14 of 6728, and in English -- reproduction in English of the template used

15 for the B/C/S version together with a reference to particular numbers, and

16 duty description is being tendered and marked as Defence Exhibit P -- as

17 Prosecution Exhibit P599.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would now just like to show the

19 witness a video clip.

20 Q. Prior to showing this video clip, Witness, I -- sorry, I would

21 just like to remind you that you stated that prior to Nurif Rizvanovic

22 coming, that the fighters in or the men in your area, Konjevic Polje,

23 didn't have uniforms. Now, is it your testimony that with the coming of

24 Nurif Rizvanovic that uniforms were finally distributed or worn or

25 distributed to fighters within the region?

Page 14159

1 A. I don't know who could distribute the uniforms.

2 Q. But did the fighters start wearing -- some fighters start wearing

3 uniforms at that time period? Wasn't that your testimony, sir?

4 A. I didn't say that anyone wore a uniform. There was no one to

5 distribute uniforms. They only brought the uniforms they were wearing.

6 Q. Okay. I'd like you to watch this video, please.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. Sir, are these similar to the times of uniforms that Nurif

10 Rizvanovic's men wore or that were worn by his men?

11 A. Yes. These uniforms are similar.

12 MS. SELLERS: We'll continue now nor a second.

13 [Videotape played]


15 Q. Sir, do you recognise the person who is on the screen now?

16 A. Yes. This is Mr. Naser Oric.

17 Q. And can you tell Your Honours what he appears to be wearing on his

18 left shoulder, if anything?

19 A. You can see that he has some sort of insignia here but you can't

20 see precisely what the insignia is.

21 Q. Does he also appear to be carrying a weapon?

22 A. Don't see any weapon here.

23 Q. Fine.

24 MS. SELLERS: We'll continue now with the video.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 14160


2 Q. Sir, would you look at the two men in uniforms now pictured on the

3 screen? And my question to you is, the patch on the man's arm that is

4 standing up near what appears to be a window, is that a patch that you

5 described earlier as belonging to the ABiH army?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, we are at 07.186.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, it could be the

8 patch of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina but you can't really see it

9 very clearly or in any detail.

10 Q. Thank you, sir.

11 MS. SELLERS: We'll continue.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Sir, do you see the man that's now pictured in the video? I will

15 ask you first do you know this person?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, before you answer, we are at 07.259.

17 It's very dark. I agree. I can barely see the face.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I understand. The screen I'm looking

19 at is much brighter than the screen that's appearing on Sanction. I would

20 ask the usher would you just verify the screen the witness has? Maybe

21 we'll have to tilt it and I would certainly like him to see as clear an

22 image as possible.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The same applies with me. I mean, Judge Eser's is

24 less dark than mine. You know, it's --


Page 14161

1 Q. Sir, could I ask to you look at the person, if you can, pictured

2 on the screen now, and first, could you tell me whether you know this

3 person or not, you recognise him?

4 A. You can't see it at all here. It's so dark.

5 Q. Sir, are you able to see an insignia on the person's hat?

6 A. You can't see that either. You can come and look for yourself, if

7 you like.

8 Q. I agree that I cannot approach you right now.

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, the technical difficulty is unfortunate

10 for the Prosecution's evidence.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't help you, Ms. Sellers. I mean, we've gone

12 through this, and I think, to be honest with you, we can jump to something

13 else because we went --

14 MS. SELLERS: We will.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: -- through this video already with someone else and

16 we've received testimony.

17 MS. SELLERS: As it pertained to this witness, we didn't. I will

18 now move to my final video. And let's hope that there will be a little

19 light shed on the image.

20 [Videotape played]


22 Q. Sir, can you see the image on your screen now, the video, with

23 enough light in order to tell? First, let me ask you, do you recognise

24 anyone in this video shot?

25 A. I don't recognise anyone here.

Page 14162

1 Q. Do you recognise the uniforms that are in this video shot?

2 A. The uniforms are camouflage uniforms. You can see them on the

3 men.

4 Q. Are these the types of uniforms that were worn by Nurif

5 Rizvanovic's men when they came into the region in August 1992?

6 A. Ones like these or similar to these.

7 Q. Are they ones like these or are they ones similar to these, sir?

8 I didn't understand whether you were giving an answer or asking a

9 question.

10 A. I said they were either like these or they were similar to these.

11 Q. Thank you very much. I would now draw your attention to the patch

12 on the person's sleeve that appears to be on the right-hand side of the

13 screen, the lower right-hand side. Would you agree that this is similar

14 to the patch that you described coming from the ABiH on uniforms of Nurif

15 Rizvanovic?

16 A. It should be.

17 Q. It should be the same or should be similar; that's what you're

18 saying, sir?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. SELLERS: We'll continue.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Sir, I would just ask you, do you by any chance recognise any of

25 the buildings that are in this video?

Page 14163

1 A. No.

2 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would just like to state that those

3 previous two films come from P433, for the record.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and we are at still point 59.138.

5 MS. SELLERS: To correct the record the previous video was

6 Prosecution's Exhibit 318 and the last one is Prosecution Exhibit 433. I

7 just have a couple of questions to finish up, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness, when Nurif Rizvanovic left the region, isn't it true that

9 he had been arrested by Naser Oric and his men prior to eventually leaving

10 the Konjevic Polje region?

11 A. You couldn't really say that he was arrested by Naser Oric, but

12 there was a rumour going around that he had been arrested. I've already

13 said that. Another possibility was that he went off somewhere. There are

14 many people in Konjevic Polje who don't know precisely whether he was

15 arrested or whether he left of his own accord, but more people seem to be

16 of the opinion that he just went off.

17 Q. And are you aware that Zulfo Tursunovic might have physically hit

18 or in any other way physically attacked Nurif Rizvanovic's person prior to

19 his going off after he had been arrested? Sorry, prior to his going off

20 or leaving?

21 A. I don't know anything about that, really.

22 Q. Now, you referred to Nurif Rizvanovic as a commander, someone who

23 acted like a commander and someone who was respected as a commander.

24 Correct, sir?

25 A. He acted like a commander but he never agreed to have anyone

Page 14164

1 respect him as a commander. Wherever he went, there were only those small

2 groups, and that did not suit him at all.

3 Q. And he referred to other persons as commanders, such as Hakija

4 Meholjic and people in the area; isn't that correct, sir?

5 A. I heard that in 1994, that there was some kind of letters

6 involving Hakija Meholjic because of some successes he had had in the

7 liberation of Srebrenica. Srebrenica had been occupied territory before

8 that. The first person to enter it in 1992 was Hakija Meholjic, with some

9 kind of group of his. I'm not a hundred per cent sure of the correctness

10 of this information but I'm telling you everything I heard.

11 Q. So would you agree that Nurif Rizvanovic being a commander himself

12 would know how to recognise persons, other persons, who were commanders?

13 A. Probably, but I don't know exactly. Probably he would be able to

14 recognise someone if that someone was a commander.

15 Q. Sir, a couple last questions and hopefully we can pass through

16 them very rapidly. You yourself never physically went to Jezestica during

17 this time period, correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. So you wouldn't know if there were any civilians, any elderly

20 people, who might have still been in the town of Jezestica on the 8th of

21 August 1992, do you?

22 A. I don't know anything about that.

23 Q. You also mentioned that one of the Eric brothers was physically

24 disabled and couldn't move around very freely. Do you remember that, sir?

25 A. Yes. I recall.

Page 14165

1 Q. So you don't know whether he or other members of his family were

2 still in Kravica on the 7th of January 1993 or whether he was able

3 physically to get out, do you?

4 A. I could know a little bit about that with respect to the elder

5 brother, Nego Eric, who couldn't move about freely. Some people who were

6 next to that house told me that shots were fired from that house and what

7 happened after that, I really wouldn't be able to say.

8 Q. Do you know that he died in the house with his wife?

9 A. I've already told you I didn't know what happened next.

10 Q. And then, lastly, I would like to ask you, do you know what

11 happened to Kostadin Popovic?

12 A. I don't know anything about Konstantin [as interpreted] Popovic.

13 Q. Do you know whether he survived the war or not?

14 A. I don't know the man. I mean --

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I can redact it without any problems but anyway,

Page 14166

1 let's not argue about it. Let's redact page 57, lines 2 to 11. Thank

2 you.

3 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, then my last question is --

4 Q. Sir, we understand that there will be a time period when you're

5 going to be asking for retirement benefits and?

6 MS. SELLERS: And, Your Honour, I don't know whether it would be

7 preferable to have this in closed session or not. I don't know how

8 identifying that would be.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: To play it safe, let's go into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14167

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not at the time, Your Honour.

5 Re-examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Interpretation]


7 Q. Witness I believe P559 has been given to you which is a document

8 concerning the proposal for a medal for Mr. Munib Sabic. In connection

9 with this, to your knowledge, is it at all true that in the area of

10 enclave before the fall of Srebrenica, there was a practice in place to

11 award medals?

12 A. No, that's not correct.

13 Q. To your knowledge, have you ever heard that Munib -- of Munib

14 Sabic being nominated to be awarded any medal?

15 A. No, I'm sure that nothing of the sort ever existed because I

16 attended his funeral.

17 Q. In connection with Munib Sabic and the document, I will ask you as

18 follows: Have you ever seen this document, P559 -- 595? It has been

19 shown to you. According to this document, Munib Sabic has turned the tide

20 of the fighting on the 29th of May 1995. Is it true at all that it was

21 Munib Sabic who had turned the tide of fighting on the 29th of May 1992 or

22 was it actually done by a group of people who came in to help you in

23 Sandici?

24 A. Exactly. It was this group of men who arrived to our aid who

25 turned the tide to our favour and not Munib who helped us -- me with the

Page 14168

1 bottley [phoen] devices.

2 Q. It is stated that Munib Sabic had an automatic rifle, is that

3 true?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Is it at all true that on the 29th of May 1992, he himself managed

6 to kill eight Chetniks?

7 A. No, that's not true.

8 Q. I will show you another document, D804. Could the witness please

9 be given D804? And while this is being done, please listen to my question

10 carefully.

11 Look at the document before you related to Munib Sabic or you

12 don't even have to. It is stated "On the 17th of December 1992, when our

13 fighters returned, and this time they were not successful, in -- on the

14 Kravica front line, the person who became leader and led them to Donja

15 Branakuslj [phoen] and Banjevici, when the above-mentioned Chetnik

16 strongholds were captured and several Chetniks were placed hors de

17 combat."

18 Please look now at D804. This is a document by the command of the

19 Bratunac Brigade dated 18 December 1992. This is therefore the report

20 drafted the following day, which says that the village of Krusik was

21 attacked, and that the Serbs had been pushed away from there. Please,

22 therefore, look at the document dated 18 December and look at paragraph 2,

23 wherein it is stated, "They discussed the Serbian line and it says, "From

24 the Drina River to the Tosici hill," and so on. Look at sentence two,

25 "From the top of Avdagina Njive behind the village of Bozici, Mocila,

Page 14169

1 Djermani, Siljkovici, Doljani and the village of Krusik."

2 Do you agree with me that this particular document issued by the

3 Bratunac Brigade says that the Serbian line was in the village of Krusik

4 on the 17th [as interpreted] of December 1992?

5 A. Yes, that's what it says.

6 Q. Have you ever heard of the Muslim forces or Muslim groups or

7 Muslim armed men, whichever way you like it, attacked Banjevici and

8 defended Bacici on the 17th of December 1992, have they ever done that

9 before mid-January?

10 A. No. Throughout my testimony, I believe I related things as they

11 had happened, and I'm sure, I'm positive, that the things did not happen

12 this way as stated in the document.

13 Q. Yesterday the Prosecutor suggested to you whether perhaps the

14 information concerning Munib Sabic had been a bit exaggerated. My

15 question to you is as follows: What is stated in this document, is it at

16 all true?

17 A. Munib Sabic was not an armed man and he definitely did not attack

18 anyone.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour --

21 A. Noticed you standing for the last minute or so.

22 MS. SELLERS: It's a bit confusing, the transcript, when I believe

23 the witness is referring to a document, and I don't know whether he's

24 referring to the document that Madam Vidovic has just presented from the

25 Drina Corps, whether he's referring to the document referring to the

Page 14170

1 medals. He says it's not true what's in the document, and I just wanted

2 to ask could we have that clarified for the record, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that needs to be clarified. Are we

4 talking of document P595 or this document, D8 -- I missed the number now.

5 804.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am referring, of

7 course, to this document.

8 Q. Witness, when I asked you to confirm the accuracy of the document,

9 I meant the one speaking about the alleged medal awarded to Mr.

10 Munib Sabic, or rather, P595. And my question was whether the contents of

11 the document were accurate, be it with regard to Munib Sabic's medal or to

12 the attack taking place against the village of Krusik, the radio set

13 there, taking place on the 17th of December 1992.

14 A. Neither of these are true.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers?

16 MS. SELLERS: I would not want the witness to be misled. The

17 document that the Prosecution presented regard to medals were proposals.

18 It is nothing about, I think, Madam Vidovic said the alleged awarding of.

19 There is nothing in the document that says the medals were awarded. These

20 were proposals that were made.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, correct, too. But we still -- we are not

22 actually I know what you've just mentioned is important but basically what

23 Ms. Vidovic is addressing is the contents of the basic information for the

24 proposal, proposed -- for the proposal itself. Anyway, let's move. Let's

25 move. Let's move ahead, please.

Page 14171

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, you were quite clear that I referred to the contends of

3 the document concerning the proposed award of medals. In connection with

4 this, have you ever heard of Munib having been proposed to receive such a

5 medal?

6 A. No.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a minor matter

8 to mention. The other document I was mentioning, D804, is dated 18

9 December 1992, and my questions had to do with this document.

10 MR. JONES: Sorry, Your Honour, I'm following the English,

11 obviously. It's just to say that in page 60, line 11, it was wrongly

12 recorded 17th of December 1992. My learned colleague's question was: Is

13 it correct that the line -- the Serb line went through Kruscic on the 18th

14 of December 1992. It is important.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's move ahead.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness now

17 please be shown P596?

18 Q. Witness, it says here, list of soldiers for commendation from the

19 Potocari Brigade. Based on what you can see here, can you have any idea

20 at all or make an inference as to the time period in which the document

21 was drafted?

22 A. The document does not bear any date pointing to when it may have

23 been drafted, nor does it have any stamp.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

Page 14172

1 P597?

2 Q. Please look at page 1. Do you agree with me that it's written in

3 the Cyrillic and that in the Cyrillic it says "the war record of the

4 Potocari Brigade," and then important data and then it is all written in

5 the Cyrillic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I wish to direct your attention to one date, where it says, on --

8 at the top, it says, "the war record of the Potocari Brigade, and then it

9 says the 8th of August 1992, Jezestica action-unsuccessful." Based on

10 what you know about it, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether Andrici and

11 Jezestica are one and the same area, or is Andrici actually quite far away

12 from Jezestica and the entire area?

13 A. I heard about Jezestica only upon my arrival in Srebrenica and I

14 heard that they ARE quite far apart.

15 Q. That Andrici and Jezestica are quite far apart from each other?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. To your knowledge, or rather the Prosecutor drew your attention to

18 Ejub Golic. Based on what you know about Ejub Golic, had this man ever --

19 before the fall of Srebrenica had anything to do with the -- any of the

20 units of the Potocari or the Potocari group itself?

21 A. No, certainly not.

22 Q. In general terms, do you know anything about the events --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers? You have an objection to the

24 previous question, I suppose.

25 MS. SELLERS: Certainly, Your Honour, I had to wait for a

Page 14173

1 translation, and just the phrase, "anything to do." That's quite broad,

2 anything to do with the Potocari unit, and I don't know whether

3 Madam Vidovic is referring to participating, participants, joint action,

4 coordination, but the question appears to have been answered by the

5 witness. I'm uncertain of his connotation.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move. Let's proceed.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness

8 understood my question and answered it.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's move.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, generally speaking, did you see, were you there, either

12 the Andrici or the Jezestica action?

13 A. No. I was -- did not -- I wasn't there. I only heard about the

14 Andrici action, whereas for the Jezestica action, I could hear the guns

15 firing.

16 Q. Do you know of any events in Zalazje in the course of 1992?

17 A. No. I did not hear anything of the sort.

18 Q. Is it not true that Zalazje is in an area quite separate from that

19 of Jezestica?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Witness, I'll direct your attention to the -- to what is purported

22 to be a war diary. Have you personally ever heard of any other group

23 except for Ejub and Nurif's men having -- as having participated in the

24 attack against Jezestica?

25 A. No, I did not hear of any other groups.

Page 14174

1 Q. Please look at page 11.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 11 of which document? Of the same document?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I took it for granted

4 that the document -- no, P598.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a different document. What's the

6 corresponding page in English, please?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's page 11 in the

8 Bosnian version.

9 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, if I might assist, I think it's page 7

10 in the English version.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Witness, under number 8, it is stated, "the unsuccessful action of

13 Andrici on the 8th of August 1992, 50 fighters took part in it," and so on

14 and so forth. You replied to the Prosecutor's question and stated that

15 this was -- conformed with Jezestica. Is it not true that the dates tally

16 rather than the other information contained here?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Do you know anything about the weapons or the fighters who are

19 report -- who reportedly took part in it?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In connection with this, do you know what the Pecista company, if

22 it ever existed, did in the course of 1992?

23 A. I didn't know who was doing what in Srebrenica. I only knew about

24 the civilians who were always in search of bread.

25 Q. So you weren't even aware of the existence of the Pecista company,

Page 14175

1 let alone what it did?

2 A. No, no, I didn't know anything.

3 Q. I will put to you a series of questions in connection with what

4 you were able to see in the video clips. First P328, where you said that

5 you could not recognise the person who spoke. Do you remember the video

6 clip you were shown, and, on the basis of what you heard, can you conclude

7 which time period the person speaking has in mind? Does the person

8 mention whether it's the August of 1992 or January 1993 or any sort of

9 date that would allow you to place the statement by this person into a

10 time frame?

11 A. No. The person never mentioned any date so I cannot really draw

12 any inferences.

13 Q. You heard the person mentioning tasks. Were you able to

14 understand on the basis of what the person was saying who was assigning

15 the tasks the person mentioned?

16 A. No. I was not able to understand that.

17 Q. Based on what you could hear the person say, were you able to

18 conclude whether the person referred to own experience or to something

19 that the person had heard from someone?

20 A. Well, my impression was that the person was referring to something

21 the person had heard from someone else.

22 Q. Can you tell us at all whether you know if the person speaking had

23 accurate information?

24 A. I don't think so.

25 Q. As a person who speaks Bosnian and/or Croatian/Serbian, were you

Page 14176

1 able to hear the interpreter interpreting what the person was saying?

2 Based on what -- on how the person speaks, can you conclude whether the

3 person has a good command of Bosnian and/or Serbo-Croatian?

4 A. I believe the person spoke Serbo-Croatian.

5 Q. My question did not have to do with the version but, rather,

6 whether the person had a good command of the language. Were you able to

7 understand the interpreter?

8 A. Not really. Not that well.

9 Q. The last document shown to you -- and could the witness please be

10 shown the document again, P599?

11 First of all, the Prosecutor suggested that the document had to do

12 with the Srebrenica TO. Do you remember?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please look at the heading, the title. Does it say the list of

15 members of the TO Gostilj-T-Srebrenica [as interpreted]? Do you agree

16 with me that it doesn't say Srebrenica TO?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. As regards Gostilj, do you have any knowledge of this unit,

19 whether it existed, how it operated, how many men it had?

20 A. No. I don't know of any unit, and I mean in Gostilj.

21 Q. Could I just make a correction for the transcript? It said

22 Gostilj P, not T. Line 21, 22:49, or, rather, line 12 and it should say

23 TO Gostilj P-Srebrenica rather than T. Line 12, 22:49.

24 By taking a glance at the document, can you infer who authored the

25 document and when?

Page 14177

1 A. The document does not contain any dates and I don't know if I can

2 see who authored it, no, no. It doesn't say who authored the document.

3 Q. I have another question in relation to this document. Have you

4 ever heard or rather had you ever heard prior to the demilitarisation,

5 that there were any quartermasters or quartermaster services in the area

6 of the enclave?

7 A. No. I hadn't heard anything of the sort.

8 Q. On your arrival in Srebrenica, and after the fall of -- after the

9 fall of Srebrenica, had you heard of the existence of any quartermaster

10 services in the area of Konjevic Polje?

11 A. No.

12 Q. The Prosecutor asked you as to the date that you indicated as

13 having entered the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina for retirement purposes, and

14 you said that it was the date of your arrival in Srebrenica. Can you tell

15 the Trial Chamber when it was?

16 A. I believe it was in the month of March, perhaps the 12th or the

17 13th. I'm not sure. I didn't have a calendar at hand. But perhaps I can

18 clarify in greater detail.

19 Q. No, please just give us the date.

20 A. I believe they keep it in their records as of 1994, although this

21 wasn't in fact the case. It was just formally put on paper as such.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

24 questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser would like to put some questions to you,

Page 14178

1 sir.

2 [Questioned by the Court]

3 JUDGE ESER: First of all, Witness, we talked a lot about Nurif

4 Rizvanovic. Do you know whether he's still alive?

5 A. Even nowadays, Your Honour, I hear that he is still alive, that

6 his family is somewhere in Slovenia. Whether this is really the case, I

7 cannot tell you.

8 JUDGE ESER: The next question: In the direct examination, asked

9 by Madam Vidovic whether the groups in Konjevic Polje did accept Nurif

10 Rizvanovic as a commander. You answered: At that time Bego Muminovic

11 told me that he had been -- Rizvanovic, was accepted. Do you know how it

12 came about that they accept him as commander?

13 A. When he came to Konjevic Polje, he said that his intention was to

14 be commander of the Drina region. I cannot tell you really what the date

15 of his arrival was, but they had a meeting which was attended by Bego

16 Muminovic and that was when Nurif was accepted as commander of the Drina

17 region. However, this was never really operational. He would sometimes

18 criticise us, that we did not adhere to something that had been previously

19 agreed, and so on.

20 JUDGE ESER: Now, when Rizvanovic had left the area, some people

21 stayed behind. Those people who stayed behind, where did they originate

22 from?

23 A. The ones who stayed behind, when Nurif Rizvanovic left, hailed

24 from the municipality of Bratunac and they were under the command of Refik

25 Hasanovic.

Page 14179

1 JUDGE ESER: Now, with regard to Refik Hasanovic, he followed

2 Rizvanovic as commander, and how did that happen that he was following

3 Rizvanovic?

4 A. I don't know how this came to happen. They agreed amongst

5 themselves, but later on, he wasn't commander of the Drina region but,

6 rather, a commander of a company, because many things changed after Nurif

7 Rizvanovic left. The numbers reduced.

8 JUDGE ESER: Now, you had testified that on the 27th of April

9 1992, there have been founded groups in Racanici [phoen] with Kadric as

10 leader, and Pobrdje with Omerovic, that seemed to have happened at the

11 same day. Was there a special reason for this, that it happened on the

12 same day?

13 A. This was established same day of the return from Sandici because

14 we could see that there was a buildup of the Serb forces. We anticipated

15 that they would attack us which was, in fact, the case.

16 JUDGE ESER: So can I conclude that it was a reaction to what was

17 going on on the Serb side that, on the Muslim side, you would try to form

18 civil village guards and groups who could defend their villages? Is that

19 a correct understanding of your -- of what you wanted to say?

20 A. Yes. The groups were established after the men returned from

21 Sandici, when Alija Osmanovic was slapped around. It was subsequent to

22 that that the groups were established, but they were established

23 independently of each other. It wasn't as if they said altogether that

24 they were going it establish these groups. They established groups in --

25 separately in Okuvici [phoen] and in other places.

Page 14180

1 JUDGE ESER: With regard to the event of the 29th of May, where

2 you had this -- tried to block the road, and you had testified that

3 quite -- you have been assisted from other groups. Now, how did it -- how

4 did you get the help or how could -- did you inform the groups from

5 outside of your own village to come to assist you? On what way was this

6 information given?

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE ESER: So if I understand you correctly, there have been

25 people moving back and forth from one side to the other to transfer or

Page 14181

1 transport certain information. Now, if you had to describe this type of

2 getting information from one place to another place, how would you

3 describe it, this sort of activity?

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Judge Eser; let's redact again

10 lines 7 to 10, please.

11 Yes, thank you.

12 JUDGE ESER: Witness, I didn't ask you now how it was done. I was

13 more interested how you would describe this activity, but how you would

14 name it, would you call these people bringing information from one place

15 to another, could you call them messengers?

16 A. I wouldn't call them messengers. They were people guarding the

17 line and observing the Kravica area, because that's where attacks came

18 from most frequently. It was the men on the line observing in that

19 direction. They didn't have time to go back to the village and give a

20 report and so on. They went straight to ask for assistance. For example,

21 from Hrncici.

22 JUDGE ESER: But is it your opinion that to defend your own

23 village would not be possible by doing it also by bringing messages from

24 one place to the other, does the one activity exclude the other one?

25 Wouldn't it be possible that defending the village could also mean that

Page 14182

1 you act as a messenger between different places?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

3 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I think there is a misunderstanding,

4 because this is the second time this witness has answered this question.

5 We are probably familiar also in our own in English with runners. If you

6 ever a system where you have people in the lines and then runners who take

7 messages. This witness has said, "We didn't have messengers in that

8 sense. There weren't runners designated to do that task. People would

9 leave the line and run and take a message." And that's what he's saying.

10 So I think there is some misunderstanding if it's being suggested to him

11 that he's excluding that people took messages. He's given his evidence on

12 this. I don't know if Your Honour wants him to accept that they were

13 couriers or something like that. It seems that's what's being suggested

14 to him. Surely he's explained the situation. Is it necessary to put

15 words in his mouth?

16 JUDGE ESER: I think I have enough answer on it, thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So there are no further questions from the Bench

18 which basically means that your testimony comes here -- comes to an end

19 here. Sir, I wish to thank you so much on behalf of the Tribunal, on

20 behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser for having kindly come over to

21 give testimony as a witness for the Defence.

22 Yes, I recognise Ms. --

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we forgot to ask the

24 witness to sign the map.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Vidovic.

Page 14183

1 Before you leave the courtroom, we need you to sign the map,

2 Exhibit D908 -- 908, and, for that reason, that map will now be kept under

3 seal, will now be kept under seal.

4 Now, sir, you will soon be escorted out of the courtroom by Madam

5 Usher and you will see all the assistance you require to facilitate your

6 return back home at the earliest. Once more, I thank you, and I also wish

7 you a safe journey back home.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Now, the position -- yes, Mr. Jones?

11 MR. JONES: Yes, I think to make use of the time it's worth me

12 floating a suggestion which I hope Your Honours will consider a practical

13 one. We really do think that after three days of proofing this witness,

14 this witness who's travelled here, he's been waiting to testify --.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I'm thinking as well.

16 MR. JONES: -- that it would be a real shame if we couldn't find

17 some way to finish his testimony.

18 I've looked quickly at statistics for, certainly during the

19 Prosecution case, how long we took as a percentage of the time for

20 examination-in-chief, and it was approximately 75 per cent on average. We

21 haven't been a hundred per cent of the time for the Prosecution on each

22 occasion. And with those statistics in mind, and also with the suggestion

23 that I'm certainly going to stick to what is relevant for the next

24 witness, and he's testifying on something very specific concerning

25 municipal staffs in Tuzla, if the Prosecution can do likewise and not seek

Page 14184

1 to raise matters with the witness which he can't comment on and which are

2 not relevant and which are not the area he knows about. If he's not asked

3 to comment on TO Gostilj or something of that nature, then I suggest the

4 Prosecution --

5 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I certainly would object to

6 characterisation of that. I'll let Mr. Jones continue.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him finish first, please. Let him finish,

8 please.

9 Please.

10 MR. JONES: Yes, in that case, I think I could be finished in two

11 and a half hours, I think that one and a half hours would be reasonable

12 for the Prosecution, and then half an hour for re-examination and Judges'

13 questions. That comes in my calculation to four and a half hours. We'll

14 have 45 minutes today, three hours and 45 minutes tomorrow, that's four

15 and a half hours. I would be content for Your Honour to switch off my

16 microphone when I reach two and a half hours, provided you do the same to

17 the Prosecution.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think we can do that Ms. Richardson?

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour at this point, without having heard

20 the witness's testimony, I'm not at this time in agreement with limiting

21 my cross-examination to an hour and a half.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We will fix a time ourselves. Okay. We will

23 reconvene. Can I ask the indulgence of the staff to have a 20-minute

24 break rather than 25? I see the French booth have signified yes, yes.

25 And the recorder? Okay. Thank you.

Page 14185

1 And the technicians, English booth?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Twenty minutes and we'll tell you

4 exactly how much. So we'll have 45 minutes now and then 3 hours and 45

5 minutes.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Jones and Ms. Richardson, we cannot allow

10 ourselves to run the risk of having this witness start and not finish. So

11 you will have two hours and 30 minutes, starting from when you start, and

12 you will have one hour 25 minutes, and we are reserving 25 minutes for us

13 or for other contingencies.

14 Sir, good morning or good afternoon to you and welcome to this

15 Tribunal. You are going to start giving evidence very soon. You've been

16 brought forward here to give evidence by the Defence. Our Rules require

17 that before you start giving evidence, you make a solemn declaration,

18 equivalent to an oath in some jurisdictions, indicating your commitment

19 with this Trial Chamber, with this Tribunal, that in the course of your

20 testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

21 the truth. The text of this solemn declaration is being handed to you now

22 by Madam Usher. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn

23 undertaking with us.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 14186

1 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Please make yourself comfortable. Today we will

4 only be here for about 40 or 45 minutes. Then we will try to continue and

5 finish tomorrow. Please try to restrict your answers to be as brief as

6 possible, and try to answer the question, the whole question, and nothing

7 but the question. Don't try to give more information than you were asked.

8 First it will be Mr. Jones who will examine you in chief and then

9 he will be followed by Ms. Richardson for the Prosecution on

10 cross-examination. Your responsibility is to answer all questions

11 truthfully and to the best of your ability irrespective of who is putting

12 them to you.

13 Yes, Mr. Jones.

14 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Examined by Mr. Jones:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Now, you may appreciate we are going to be quite short on time

19 today and tomorrow and, so, as His Honour indicated, if you could give

20 really a shorter answers as possible, really just if you can answer in a

21 few words, that's best, and, if in doubt, err on the side of giving too

22 short an answer than too long an answer.

23 Now, please give your full name for the record.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You can lead him on this, if you want, Mr. Jones,

25 and get it over and done with.

Page 14187

1 MR. JONES: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: His name, what he's done, where and when was he

3 born, and the rest.

4 MR. JONES: Certainly.

5 Q. So your name is Mirsad Mustafic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were born on the 5th of March 1959 in Potocari in Srebrenica

8 municipality?

9 A. On the 5th of March, 1959.

10 Q. And incidentally is the name Mustafic common or uncommon in the

11 Srebrenica area?

12 A. It's common.

13 Q. And are there other Mirsad Mustafics in your area?

14 A. In Srebrenica municipality, I know about five people called Mirsad

15 Mustafic.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, your father's name is Nurdin [phoen] and your

17 mother's name is Djeva [phoen]?

18 A. Father, Nurdin; mother Djeva.

19 Q. And is it right that you attended primary school in Potocari and

20 in Srebrenica, high school in Srebrenica, and you studied at the economics

21 faculty in Sarajevo university between 1978 and 1983?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I won't go through your various occupations, but is it right

24 that you worked in the construction industry among other things and that

25 you also formed a housing cooperative in Srebrenica before the war?

Page 14188

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when the war started, you were in Potocari?

3 A. When the war started, on the 16th, I went to Tuzla with my family.

4 Q. How did you go to Tuzla? By road or by foot?

5 A. In a vehicle.

6 Q. And do you know if it was possible to reach Tuzla from Srebrenica

7 by road after the 16th of April 1992?

8 A. After the 16th of April, it was no longer possible. That was more

9 or less the last day on which you could leave Srebrenica and go to Tuzla

10 or some other place.

11 Q. Now, on the way to Tuzla, did you see anything of a Serb military

12 presence?

13 A. All along the road there were checkpoints, barricades, set up by

14 the local Serb population, from Tisca towards Kladanj. There was a

15 military unit stationed there and reservists, in the Lukic Polje area.

16 Q. And when you say there was a military unit, do you know which

17 unit, which Serb military unit?

18 A. It was a military unit of the Uzice Corps and volunteers.

19 Q. All right. And just in terms of this area that you've

20 mentioned --.

21 MR. JONES: Your Honours, I was considering using a map.

22 Q. But I think it will be sufficient for our purposes if you tell us,

23 is this anywhere near Sekovici, the Lukic Polje area you mentioned?

24 A. That's in the immediate vicinity of Sekovici on the regional road

25 from Vlasenica to Kladanj. In Tisca you turn off towards Sekovici, and to

Page 14189

1 get to Lukic Polje you go on in that direction towards Kladanj.

2 Q. In fact, it might assist if the witness could be quickly shown

3 D895?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could we locate D895 and show it to the

5 witness?

6 MR. JONES: If that could please be placed on the ELMO.

7 Q. Now, witness, on this map, do you see first of all a road which

8 has been highlighted and then an area marked in red?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't see the area marked in red on my monitor.


11 Q. Witness, if you turn to your left and look at the map which is to

12 your left on the ELMO. Now, if you locate first of all Zvornik -- I trust

13 I can lead on this. If you go up, Witness, to Zvornik, you'll see Tuzla

14 in the far left-hand corner, up the Drina, Zvornik. Now if you go left do

15 you see the red marking there around the road to the left?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


19 Q. And do you see Sekovici? It's very small lettering but -- in any

20 event. Now these barricades that you mentioned, was that in this area or

21 in some other area?

22 A. The barricades were -- they started in Zuti Most in Bratunac

23 municipality, and they were there all along the road, as far as Kladanj.

24 Q. In the region of Lukevic Polje [phoen], which you said was in the

25 Sekovici region, what did you see there, if you'll just remind us?

Page 14190

1 A. There, I saw a military unit stationed there, which was already

2 setting up tents. I saw a lot of military equipment and weaponry, and I

3 saw quite a large number of soldiers in the uniforms worn by the reserve

4 police force. They were unshaved.

5 Q. That's fine. And if the record could reflect that the witness was

6 indicating with the marker or rather with the pointer the Sekovici area?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you. I confirm that, Mr. Jones.


9 Q. This was on the 16th of April 1992?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clarify one thing. We have been mentioning

11 the 16ing of April. In the summary that you had circulated before, it

12 mentions the 17th of April.

13 MR. JONES: If that's so, this would be a correction.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know which one is the correct one.

15 MR. JONES: Yes, I think the witness can confirm this.

16 Q. Was it the 16th of April or the 17th of April?

17 A. The 16th.

18 Q. And when did you arrive in Tuzla?

19 A. I arrived in Tuzla late in the evening on the 16th.

20 Q. And were there many refugees in Tuzla when you arrived?

21 A. Yes. In Tuzla, there was an enormous number of refugees.

22 Q. And were they only from Srebrenica, like yourself, or were they

23 from other municipalities?

24 A. They were from other neighbouring municipalities, Zvornik,

25 Bratunac, Vlasenica and Srebrenica.

Page 14191

1 Q. And as they were arriving, these refugees, was anyone taking care

2 of or organising them and providing for accommodation, food, and their

3 basic needs?

4 A. At first, as large numbers of people kept arriving continuously in

5 columns, the authorities of Tuzla municipality attempted to organise

6 assistance initially they put them in a hall called Mejdan and in some

7 empty schools.

8 Q. And were any associations set up to help these refugees?

9 A. After a few days, when they saw that the number of people needing

10 assistance was enormous, individual municipalities, which had fled to

11 Tuzla, set up associations of refugees in Tuzla in order to attempt to

12 assist the population there.

13 Q. And were you involved in one such association for refugees from

14 Srebrenica?

15 A. Yes, I was.

16 Q. And did you have any particular experience which equipped you to

17 work, to do that sort of work?

18 A. I did have a certain amount of experience. Before the war, I had

19 been the president of the municipal trade union organisation which

20 involved looking after workers and so I had some experience as did the

21 other people who were at that time in the association of refugees.

22 Q. And were associations also set up for refugees from Bratunac, from

23 Vlasenica and from Zvornik?

24 A. Yes. The other municipalities also set up their own refugee

25 associations in order to help their people.

Page 14192

1 Q. Now, in April 1992, did this association have anything to do with

2 mobilising people to fight in the Tuzla area?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And was there actually war in the Tuzla area in April 1992?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When did war start in Tuzla?

7 A. On the 15th of May.

8 Q. And what happened on that day?

9 A. On that day, a column of the JNA arrived from Dubrave. It was

10 passing through Tuzla and an incident occurred at Brcanska Malta, and on

11 that day the war began in Tuzla.

12 Q. After the 15th of May 1992, after that day, could you in Tuzla

13 communicate with Srebrenica?

14 A. No.

15 Q. In May 1992, was there telephone communication with Srebrenica?

16 A. No. There was no telephone communication with Srebrenica as of

17 the end of April 1992.

18 Q. Yes. Sorry, telephone communication between Tuzla and Srebrenica,

19 which ceased in that period?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And did you personally try to reach anyone in Srebrenica in that

22 time?

23 A. I did try because my mother was there and other members of my

24 family.

25 Q. With the usher's assistance, if the witness could be shown P331,

Page 14193

1 please. This is addressed to the republican TO staff in Sarajevo and to

2 the regional TO staff in Tuzla, and there is a stamp from Sarajevo and

3 various handwritten annotations at the top. First of all, because in

4 English we have something written as "communications centre," can you

5 confirm, witness, that the top of this document in handwriting at the very

6 top, you see 27/10/00 but to the left there is simply the initials, the

7 letters Č.V.?

8 A. I don't know what this means.

9 Q. Thank you. Simply to confirm that in English it says

10 communications centre and we can test that as a translation. Now I just

11 have one question on this document. Was it possible for a fax to be sent

12 from Srebrenica to Tuzla on the 9th of July 1992? Sorry, this document is

13 dated 9 July, 1992. Was it possible on that day for a fax to be sent from

14 Srebrenica to Tuzla?

15 A. No. It was not possible, in view of the fact that the telephone

16 communications were cut off, so logically a fax could not have been sent.

17 Q. And did you in fact ever see any faxes which had been received in

18 Tuzla from Srebrenica after that period when communications were cut off,

19 i.e. from May 1992 onwards, before demilitarisation?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that document.

22 MR. JONES: If the witness could please now be shown Exhibit P234?

23 And this is dated 3 July 1992, number 55, 92, and it's from the RBH

24 municipal assembly Srebrenica TO staff to the Tuzla District Staff in

25 Tuzla and I just want to read a short paragraphs, the first and third

Page 14194

1 paragraph. "Since 10 April 1992, some 3.000 residents of Srebrenica

2 municipality have fled to the Tuzla region escaping the aggression by

3 Serbian Chetniks from Serbia and Montenegro and local SDS terrorists."

4 I'm skipping paragraph 2.

5 Paragraph 3, "On 5 June 1992, we in Tuzla have set up and

6 registered the association of refugees, passed the necessary enactments,

7 and selected organs in accordance with the statute. The association has

8 been registered as a social and legal entity."

9 Now firstly does that accurately reflect what happened in May and

10 June 1992 or not, what's stated there?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was your association for refugees from Srebrenica registered

13 as a legal entity?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who did you register with?

16 A. The registration court in Tuzla.

17 Q. And did you have your own stamp?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If we turn to page 2 of this document, do you know who signed the

20 document?

21 A. The secretary of the association, Mr. Mehmed Omerovic.

22 Q. All right. Now, we have just seen this reference to the

23 association of refugees. In the heading, there is a reference to

24 Srebrenica TO staff. Can you explain to us what the relationship is

25 between the Srebrenica TO staff mentioned here and the association of

Page 14195

1 refugees which you formed?

2 A. In view of the fact that in this period on the free territory of

3 the Tuzla area, staffs were beginning to be set up, we too decided to

4 establish a TO Staff which would join the cantonal or rather the district

5 TO Staff of Tuzla.

6 Q. And you say we. Who are you referring to when you say "we"?

7 A. I'm referring to this association of refugees in Tuzla.

8 Q. All right. Now were you a member of the TO staff which is

9 referred to here, TO staff Srebrenica but in Tuzla?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you have a position at some stage?

12 A. At a certain point I was a member of the staff.

13 Q. Can you explain to us what the functions of the staff were?

14 A. First of all, the functions of the staff were to have a unified

15 register of all men liable for military service in the Tuzla district, all

16 military-able men had to be listed, and these lists were to be handed over

17 to the district secretariat for people's defence with a view to

18 mobilisation.

19 Q. And were you also involved in the distribution of humanitarian aid

20 to people in Tuzla?

21 A. Yes, apart from this, our basic task was to look after the people

22 who found themselves in this area, meaning to provide humanitarian

23 assistance, accommodation, food, clothing, footwear and everything else

24 that was necessary for survival.

25 Q. Where did the staff meet? When I say "staff" -- when I say "your

Page 14196

1 staff," I'm referring to the Srebrenica municipality Territorial Defence

2 staff in Tuzla.

3 A. The seat was in Rudarska street in Tuzla.

4 Q. And did the Vlasenica TO staff share the same building, at least

5 for a period?

6 A. Yes, for a period the municipal staff of Vlasenica was located

7 there as well.

8 Q. If we go back to this document, P234, if you look at the top

9 right-hand corner of the document, you'll see 2207 in brackets, Sadic, and

10 then look at this and let's consult. Do you see that, handwritten marks?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, can you actually see in English it says this is illegible but

13 I don't believe it is, do you see a number before the 2207? Can you work

14 out what number is written there?

15 A. Between the 2207 in brackets it's 01/795.

16 Q. All right. Thank you. Do you know who Sadic is or who this might

17 refer to?

18 A. Mr. Sadic was then the Chief of Staff of the Territorial Defence

19 of the Tuzla district.

20 Q. If you keep that document with you --

21 MR. JONES: I'd ask for the assistance of the usher, if we could

22 show the Witness P233. Now, this document again just for the record while

23 it's being distributed is dated 2nd of July 1992, the last was dated 3rd

24 of July 1992. The number on this document is 5692, it was 5529 on the

25 last document and now we have to look just at the B/C/S for this next

Page 14197

1 issue which is on page 3, it could be shown on the ELMO, otherwise we can

2 look at our copy [inaudible] for us and the public gallery, but in any

3 event.

4 Q. Could you read for us what's written on that stamp, firstly, at

5 the bottom left-hand corner?

6 A. The date, 22nd July 1992, number 01/795.

7 Q. And then it's the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina district

8 territorial district staff, Territorial Defence, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The number, 01795, and the date corresponds to the document we

11 just saw?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, just dealing with this document, this stamp, does it appear

14 that then on this date the 22nd of July 1992, is when these documents were

15 apparently received by the District Staff, Territorial Defence, Tuzla?

16 A. Yes. They were received on the 22nd of July 1992.

17 Q. Now, to your knowledge, before that date, the 22nd of July 1992,

18 did the Tuzla or was the Tuzla district TO staff aware of the municipal TO

19 staff of Srebrenica that you had formed in Tuzla?

20 A. No. It was on the date of receipt of this document that they

21 learned about it.

22 Q. Now, if we go back to P234, which I think you still have in front

23 of you, the penultimate sentence of the last paragraph on the first page

24 in English it says, "We are ready to place ourselves at the disposal of

25 the Tuzla TO district staff on whose territory there are some 40 fighters

Page 14198

1 from Srebrenica." Do you see that in B/C/S? It's on the first page,

2 [B/C/S spoken]. Do you see that? If you go to the bottom and then count

3 up about seven lines, seven lines from the bottom [B/C/S spoken]? Can you

4 see that?

5 A. Yes, I can see it.

6 Q. Is it correct then that certainly as of the 22nd of July 1992,

7 when this was received, that the -- your staff was not a part of the Tuzla

8 TO District Defence Staff?

9 A. Our staff was not a part of the District Defence Staff until the

10 27th of July 1992.

11 Q. And so then, at that point, was it a question of the Tuzla TO

12 district defence staff establishing a subordinate organ, a Srebrenica

13 Municipal TO Staff or of an organ calling itself the Srebrenica Municipal

14 Defence Staff forming itself and volunteering to be part of the Tuzla

15 staff?

16 A. In view of the fact that we were within the territory of the Tuzla

17 district, the only way of assisting in the defence against the aggression

18 was to get ourselves organised in this Municipal Staff in Tuzla where we

19 basically placed ourselves at the disposal of the District Staff of the TO

20 Tuzla, and we did it on a voluntary basis.

21 Q. All right. So in other words the TO Tuzla didn't form you; you

22 formed yourself and then volunteered to be part of it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, if we go again back to P233 which I think you still have

25 before you, there is a reference to the formation of a Rudarska Srebrenica

Page 14199

1 company. Are you familiar with that company?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, what if anything is the relationship between that organ, that

4 company, and the -- and your staff?

5 A. We established the unit to be able to join the defence of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina on a voluntary basis.

7 Q. So is this unit, the people who are mentioned, are they people in

8 Tuzla?

9 A. Yes. All these people were in Tuzla.

10 Q. And did this staff and this company have anything to do with any

11 fighters physically present in Srebrenica municipality, Srebrenica

12 municipality, at that time, in July 1992?

13 A. Nothing to do at all. Whatever is mentioned here was exclusively

14 linked with Tuzla.

15 Q. And again turning to the signature, do you recognise who signed

16 this?

17 A. Mehmed Omerovic.

18 Q. The same one you told us about before?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And the stamp we see here, do you recognise that or not, as your

21 stamp for your staff?

22 A. Yes. That is our stamp, yes.

23 Q. And was this document actually prepared in Tuzla or in Srebrenica?

24 A. Only in Tuzla and it applies to all.

25 Q. And were the people mentioned in this document assigned from

Page 14200

1 Srebrenica or were they assigned by you in Tuzla?

2 A. We appointed these people at a meeting that we held. It was us.

3 Q. And did you have any consultation with people in Srebrenica in

4 appointing these people to the Srebrenica TO Staff in Tuzla?

5 A. We were unable to have any consultations because we had no

6 communication with Srebrenica, as I indicated earlier.

7 Q. All right. Now, if we turn to the second page in Bosnian, and in

8 English, where it says, in English, "Of commanding cadre of Srebrenica

9 Territorial Defence in Tuzla," we see a list of actually seven names but

10 numbered 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, so 2 and 3 are missing. Can you help us

11 with this? In the B/C/S can you see whether it appears that something was

12 written in rows 2 and 3 but has been blanked out or not?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It we see the B/C/S version momentarily on the ELMO,

14 please?


16 Q. Yes, I'm referring to whether you see any markings there in 2, in

17 what would be the second and third rows?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Now, first of all, if you look at the seven names here, do you

20 recognise them? Were they members of the -- of your staff in Tuzla or

21 not, to your knowledge?

22 A. Yes. Since we were the ones to appoint them, to choose them, of

23 course I know them.

24 Q. And you've told us that you were a member of this staff so

25 presumably your name should be on this list. Are there any other names to

Page 14201

1 your knowledge that should be on this list of people who have been

2 omitted?

3 A. My name should be on the list, as well as that of Mr. Omerovic.

4 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document and with P234. Thank

5 you.

6 Now, if we could see Exhibit P236? For the record this is dated

7 10th of July 1992, it's instructions to the TO staff, and it appears to be

8 from Zeljko Knez, commander. And at the top it says, "Regulation of

9 obligations of Territorial Defence staffs in connection with implementing

10 the instructions of the Sarajevo Territorial Defence Staff."

11 And then when we turn to the end, it says, "Submit to Territorial

12 Defence Staffs," and then there is a list of municipalities, Banovici down

13 to Zivinice.

14 Q. Do you see that list?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where are those municipalities located?

17 A. These municipalities are located in the district of Tuzla.

18 MR. JONES: Your Honours, we have a new map to distribute for this

19 witness, which is from -- it's a topographical map of the SFRY, 1 to

20 750.000 scale apparently.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Mustafic, I don't know if you have a highlighter in front

22 of you. If not, I can provide one.

23 I'm going to ask you if you could mark those municipalities on

24 this map.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 14202

1 Q. I can read them as we go. That way you don't have to look back.

2 You've marked Tuzla. Okay, so now Banovici?

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Gracanica?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Gradacac?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Kalesija?

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Kladanj?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Lukavac?

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Celic?

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Srebrenik.

17 MR. JONES: I don't know if I'm permitted to assist the witness

18 but I think one problem is he's already -- he's partially underlined it

19 already when he underlined Gracanica.

20 Q. Do you see Gracanica where you underlined?

21 A. Srebrenik, there it is. [Marks]

22 Q. You've done Tuzla. And then Zivinice finally, please.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Right. Thank you. Actually for now so we don't forget to you

25 sign the map and we will give it an exhibit number now, if that's okay.?

Page 14203

1 THE REGISTRAR: D945, Your Honour.


3 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Turning back to this document which you should have still, P236.

5 Actually, the map can remain there although yesterday -- we probably won't

6 need it again so, in fact, no, it can stay on the ELMO. Thanks.

7 On P236, if you see below where it says Commander Zeljko Knez, we

8 also see it written "to the Territorial Defence staffs with headquarters

9 in Tuzla for the following municipalities, Vlasenica, Bratunac, Zvornik,

10 and Ugljevik." Now are you familiar with these Territorial Defence staffs

11 with their headquarters in Tuzla?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why did they have their head quarters in Tuzla rather than in

14 Vlasenica, Bratunac, Zvornik, and Ugljevik?

15 A. For the very reason that they had no physical or other way of

16 communicating with the areas. These were people who fled to the area of

17 Tuzla from those areas.

18 Q. What did they flee?

19 A. An aggression.

20 Q. We don't see Srebrenica on this list of municipalities. Did the

21 Tuzla District TO Staff know of the existence of your staff, the

22 municipal -- Srebrenica Municipal TO Staff in Tuzla on the 10th of July

23 1992?

24 A. No. We indicated that in the earlier document it was obvious that

25 it was only on the 22nd of July 1992 that they learned about the

Page 14204

1 establishment of the Srebrenica Municipal TO Staff.

2 Q. Do you know why - this is my last question for today - it appears

3 that they -- the district staff knew of the Zvornik, Bratunac, Vlasenica

4 staffs at that time but not of yours?

5 A. Because these were established as staffs before we were, and that

6 is why they joined and were admitted into the District TO Staff before us.

7 MR. JONES: Your Honour, as much as I would like to keep going in

8 order to squeeze some more time I think that's the end of the day so I'll

9 resume tomorrow.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we are doing fine, however, timewise,

11 Mr. Jones; let's finish here.

12 Mr. Mustafic, we will continue tomorrow afternoon, tomorrow

13 afternoon at 2.15, at 2.15. I can't remember whether it's in this same

14 courtroom or -- Courtroom III? I'm going to be here in the morning

15 because I have a Rules Committee meeting starting at nine so anything you

16 need during the morning, I'll be available, and also Judge Brydensholt and

17 Judge Eser.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I just have a matter that

19 doesn't concern the witness; however, in my view --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Then he can be escorted out. I think that's better.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson?

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. It's just in light of the time

25 constraint, I will have to prepare my cross-examination and exhibits with

Page 14205

1 only hearing 45 minutes of the witness's testimony, so I would ask the

2 Defence to provide me with additional proofing notes if they plan to go

3 outside the summary that's been provided previously to us. I think in all

4 fairness we should be given some advance notice of additional facts, et

5 cetera.

6 MR. JONES: I don't -- first, I don't have proofing notes, to be

7 perfectly honest, but in any event there isn't anything significant apart

8 from what was in the summary and apart from what we've already -- in an

9 e-mail with the exhibit list we mentioned one or two further items or

10 corrections.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We wouldn't be aware of those. So --

12 MR. JONES: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- emailed to the Prosecution.

14 MR. JONES: To the Prosecution in which we corrected one or two

15 matters, that there wasn't a separate War Presidency in Tuzla and another

16 matter, I believe. But apart from that it's -- the witness is going to be

17 testifying about precisely what he was testifying about today.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: There isn't much actually, so at the end of the day

19 I think we could even shorten it further if it depended on me. But I

20 think -- are you happy with that?

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I rely on what counsel has

22 stated and I rely on that.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And I thank you both for your

24 cooperation in trying to get this witness's testimony finished by the end

25 of tomorrow. I do appreciate that.

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1 So, well, I thank you. We'll meet again tomorrow afternoon.

2 Thanks.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of

5 November 2005, at 2.15 p.m.