Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15153

1 Tuesday, 17 January 2006

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could you

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

10 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in your own language?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. I can follow the proceedings in my own language.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and also good morning to

15 the Defence. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel for the Prosecution.

16 I'm here together with Ms. Patricia Sellers, Ms. Joanne Richardson, and

17 our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben and good morning to you and

19 your team.

20 Appearances for Naser Oric.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

22 morning to my learned colleagues from the OTP. My name is Vasvija Vidovic

23 and, together with Mr. John Jones, I appear for Mr. Oric. We have with us

24 here our legal assistants, Ms. Adisa Mehic, and our CaseMap manager,

25 Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 15154

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, mad ham and good morning to you and

2 your team.

3 So before we start with the evidence of today's witness let me

4 just make a statement relating to developments during the recess. And in

5 particular, I wish to state that upon our or as per our instructions, last

6 week, our Senior Legal Officer presided over a 65 ter meeting to gather

7 information from the parties and also discuss with the parties on our

8 behalf the proposed continuation and finalisation of these proceedings.

9 This 65 ter Conference was held last Friday, the 13th, and I'm

10 informed by Mr. Von Hebel not only of the various points discussed but

11 also that the 65 ter Conference itself went very well.

12 I will try to touch upon some of the issues raised and some of the

13 developments that have been registered today, and leave some others for

14 later. The idea is that we try and start with the testimony of today's

15 witness as early as we can.

16 Now, the first matter that emerged from the 65 ter meeting to

17 which I expect to be a follow-up -- there to be follow-up today is that

18 after due consideration, the Defence have decided to call only four of the

19 remaining witnesses to testify viva voce here and that is Suhra -- she

20 does not have any protective measures, does she? Yeah, okay. Suhra

21 Djilovic, who will testify today, Ejub Guster, your expert

22 Professor Bilic, and Lieutenant Colonel Fenzel. In all, the testimony of

23 these individuals, these four individuals, is expected to take the

24 remainder of this week and the next. We anticipate to finish on the 26th

25 or the 27th. We will try to do our utmost to finish on the 26th because

Page 15155

1 on the 27th there is a problem.

2 Then there are two other individuals to which, or about which the

3 Defence have got submissions. One is a certain Philip Von

4 Rechlinghousen. He is the subject of a Rule 92 bis motion. We will be

5 handing down the decision -- deciding this morning. Our decision would

6 roughly require you to have his statement sworn according to procedure and

7 then, of course, it will be admitted also because there is no other kind

8 of objection on the part of the Prosecution.

9 There is, it seems, a problem with the other person, Dr. Paul

10 Cornish, the military analyst, and your proposal was to put him as subject

11 of a motion under Rule 94 bis. I know that this issue was raised during

12 the 65 ter meeting. The indication that I have from our Senior Legal

13 Officer is that the Prosecution intimated that they would be asking for

14 the production of this gentleman to come forward for cross-examination.

15 In other words, that it would not be plain sailing procedure under Rule 94

16 bis by simply filing the expert report of this gentleman. So what I would

17 like from you now is to confirm to me what the situation is as regards the

18 following two points. On the part of the Defence, whether the position

19 remains as you put it to the Senior Legal Officer last Friday, in other

20 words, that there are four remaining witnesses to come forward and testify

21 viva voce and as regards the Prosecution, what's your position formally in

22 relation to Dr. Paul Cornish and, since I was given to understand by the

23 Senior Legal Officer that if the Prosecution maintains their position with

24 regard to this person, you will -- you might consider withdrawing him from

25 being one of your expert witnesses. I would then please ask you to

Page 15156

1 confirm or reconsider your position.

2 So Madam Vidovic or Mr. Jones, are you confirming to the Trial

3 Chamber that you have got basically four remaining viva voce witnesses?

4 MR. JONES: Yes, that's correct. And as far as Dr. Cornish is

5 concerned, it's not really that there was a problem with his -- him

6 testifying, it's simply that we decided that if there were no opposition

7 to his report from the Prosecution, then we would submit his report in

8 which case he would need to remain on the list of witnesses.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, of course.

10 MR. JONES: If they opposed them, then of course we do drop him

11 and essentially we are waiting for the Prosecution to -- formally to reply

12 or to respond to our motion and then we would act accordingly but Your

13 Honour understands the position exactly.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that.

15 Yes, Mr. Wubben, thank you.

16 Mr. Jones.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I confirm that our position remained

18 that we want to cross-examine the expert by the Defence, Dr. Cornish, and

19 we will formalise our opinion, of course, by motion.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.

21 Mr. Jones, that's the position confirmed by the Prosecution.

22 Basically what -- I'm just repeating it, for no other reason except that

23 if that is the case, you might consider dropping this witness now so that

24 he won't have to file a motion in any case and we won't have to decide it.

25 MR. JONES: Yes.

Page 15157

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But it will remain on record that they insisted and

2 that is the reason for the dropping of --

3 MR. JONES: Yes, we can certainly do that, indicate now that we

4 would drop him. I just mention one thing which is one of the reasons why

5 we filed the report even though we were considering not calling

6 Dr. Cornish during the Defence case is that if the Prosecution were to

7 call a military expert in rebuttal, we might want to call him in

8 rejoinder, and given the time periods under 94 bis we thought it best to

9 file it as early as possible. So it was the right to apply to bring him

10 in rejoinder that we drop him for our case. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So basically, that means that you

12 only need to attend to the -- to formalising the von Rechlinghousen

13 statement according to our procedure. That would be admitted as evidence

14 under Rule 92 bis. And we will, of course, proceed with the testimony of

15 the four remaining witnesses.

16 I know because I had asked Mr. Von Hebel to deal with this matter

17 with you during the 65 ter meeting, the question of rebuttal. He reported

18 to me that somehow you were taken by surprise, Mr. Wubben, by the fact

19 that the number of Defence witnesses was being reduced to four viva voce

20 and one, maximum two, under Rule 92 bis, and that you stated to

21 Mr. Von Hebel that, although you had, of course, been giving a question of

22 rebuttal, something you were not in a position there, and then to come

23 forward with the necessary information.

24 Mr. Von Hebel informs me that you indicated that you would be in a

25 position to come back to the Tribunal on this matter either today or

Page 15158

1 tomorrow. Are you in a position to enlighten us on whether there will

2 be -- whether to expect a rebuttal, what kind of rebuttal -- in other

3 words, who will be coming over and, of course, I do concede that the need

4 might arise for adding or even subtracting from your rebuttal following

5 the testimony of the remaining viva voce witnesses, so -- of the Defence.

6 MR. WUBBEN: Yes. Your Honour, over the weekend we were not able

7 to contact the potential witnesses for rebuttal but we have at least

8 isolated five issues, including the possibility of an expert on

9 handwriting for a rebuttal on those parts of the expert report by

10 Mr. Bilic that are not -- that are new as a kind of expertise. So meaning

11 that are not a -- in a stage or a label of a contra expertise but a new

12 expertise by expert Bilic regarding certain documents.

13 The other issues involved are local commandership, the role of the

14 military police, and the credibility of a witness. We tried to at least

15 to get one witness via a 92 bis or 89(F), and we tried to minimise it to

16 that extent and I forgot that we also would like to call a witness in

17 rebuttal for identifying an image. Now, I know I'm aware of the fact that

18 I am now limited at this very moment but we are still in the phase of

19 contacting these witnesses for their availability to testify in court at

20 this stage. So far we were not successful but we will continue today and

21 I might update you further tomorrow.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. May I just make things clear, because I

23 don't want to fall on you with surprises in due course. Our plan is to

24 start with the rebuttal, if there will be one, on the 30th of this month.

25 In other words -- Monday. A Tuesday? The 31st, yeah, to start on

Page 15159

1 Tuesday, the 31st. So you don't have much time. I mean, I think the

2 identification of the remaining witnesses in rebuttal that you may have,

3 do not need to wait until now to start with. And secondly, I mean, you

4 need to move because come what may, on the 31st, if you have them

5 available, we'll start. If you don't have them available, we'll move on,

6 all right?

7 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing is in relation to this handwriting

9 expert that additional handwriting expert that we reserve our position on

10 that and the main reason is the following: That I was going to announce

11 later on today, but I'll make the announcement now, that things being what

12 they are, in other words since we have two reports by expert hand

13 writer -- handwriting experts, one from your part and one from the Defence

14 part, which are almost 100 per cent diametrically opposed and since the

15 last thing on earth that we would pretend is to know anything about the

16 subject ourselves, we have met over the holidays, and discussed and

17 confirmed amongst ourselves yesterday, that we will be appointing an

18 expert in handwriting ourselves. That is the position. It's being worked

19 upon by the Registrar. We handed down lists of possible experts yesterday

20 but, of course, these are all busy people and they are being -- the list

21 is being examined by the Registrar. I expect some kind of feedback later

22 on this morning, after which I will come back to you after having

23 discussed further with my two colleagues.

24 If there are further documents that you need to be examined, I

25 think you need to sit down and realise that it makes much more sense that

Page 15160

1 you tell us which documents you're interested in at this stage so that we

2 ourselves refer them to this independent expert rather than ask that you

3 bring forward once more an ex parte expert which would only serve as an

4 invitation for the other party to bring over another expert -- ex parte

5 expert on their part and then ultimately probably a further decision on

6 our part to appoint again independent experts from our part. So, please,

7 be sensible about it. Of course, I am reserving your position and ours

8 when it comes to -- when it comes to your requests for rebuttal and for

9 the Defence's request for rejoinder. Do please keep in mind what I have

10 just told you.

11 Later on, I will, after consultation with my two colleagues,

12 inform you more in detail about the terms of reference of the expert but

13 our idea is that the expert will start working on the assignment that we

14 will give him or her or them because ideally if we could have more than

15 one expert it will be even better, more than one expert that would work

16 independently of each other and then present a joint report, if necessary.

17 There is, however, a problem that has arisen this morning in this

18 context, which I think I better mention now, and that is the following,

19 that I have been informed by a member of my staff that the Defence has

20 asked the Prosecution to make available for the duration of the testimony

21 of Professor Bilic the originals of the nine documents, P74, 73, 75, P4,

22 P37, P158, P14, P10, and P3. Now, you will understand that if these are

23 needed for the purpose of Mr. Bilic's testimony, we cannot refuse this; we

24 would rather ask them to make them available. But if they are here for

25 the duration of the testimony of Professor Bilic, then obviously they

Page 15161

1 cannot be available at the same time to the expert that we are going to

2 appoint.

3 So I'm saying this without in any way interfering with what might

4 be going on between you. If they need to be here, of course, they will be

5 here and they will be made available to our expert later. That would only

6 delay things but in the meantime, it could also help matters in the sense

7 that you'll be able to identify in the meantime any further documents or

8 exhibits that you might wish to be examined by our expert/experts that we

9 will be appointing.

10 All right? Any comments on your parts, Mr. Jones?

11 MR. JONES: Yes, just in terms of the originals being available

12 I'm afraid we do need those. In proofing the witness it's clear that

13 he -- in fact, he insists on having them and will show watermarks and

14 things which can only be shown with the originals. So that is the

15 position as far as that's concerned. I did wonder whether we would be

16 given the opportunity to address Your Honour on the terms of reference and

17 the nationality of the expert, the procedure and protocol, whether we

18 would have time, well, certainly to, of course, first of all cross-examine

19 the witness and therefore also to submit the court's expert report to our

20 expert so that we can take instructions as to how to cross-examine him

21 there are lots of matters of procedure and protocol that you need to hear

22 from us on.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I think the terms of reference are our

24 business and not the parties', obviously, but since you feel that there is

25 a need for you to make submissions - and I don't know what's the position

Page 15162

1 of the Prosecution - of course, we will be very glad to hear your

2 submissions. Ultimately, we were thinking in our discussions on this

3 matter, trying to save on time as much as we can, we were thinking about

4 the possibility of ultimately having the expert or experts that we will

5 appoint to come here and present his, her, or their report orally rather

6 than necessarily in writing. The reason is we'll save time.

7 You will, of course, have every opportunity to examine or

8 cross-examine, call it whatever you like, to put questions to our expert

9 or experts, and we also discussed amongst ourselves yesterday that since

10 you are more or less in our same position, in other words I would take it

11 that you know about the subject as much as we do, that you would require

12 some kind of assistance to enable you to put questions to our expert or

13 experts, in which case we would be very glad to hear submissions on your

14 part on what your requirements would be and, of course, we will come

15 forward with our response in due course but we do acknowledge that -- I

16 mean, I was Defence counsel myself in years gone, and, of course, I needed

17 expert advice and assistance to be able to put questions to

18 court-appointed experts on various matters, not just on handwriting. So

19 we would be very pleased to hear your submissions on the matter and we

20 will give our reactions after due consultation and discussion. All

21 right?

22 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. So I take it firstly I won't

23 make the submissions now. Obviously that will be in due course and in

24 fact it might even be better after our expert has testified depending on

25 your schedule because there are points I would make in light of his

Page 15163

1 evidence about the nature of any further examination. I think we would

2 need at that time a minimum him our expert present at the Bench with us

3 when it comes to examining the Court's expert but that's a matter which we

4 can address subsequently.

5 One other matter I just wanted to mention, Your Honour, is that we

6 share absolutely the concern to move on to the subsequent stages of this

7 trial, rebut and rejoinder, as soon as possible but without that in any

8 way that -- the routine-ness of that impinging on our right obviously to

9 object that witnesses proposed by the Prosecution in rebuttal should have

10 been called earlier. For example, we may wish to argue that, I don't

11 know, for the role of the military police that that's not an appropriate

12 matter for rebuttal, that it should have been dealt with earlier. I'm not

13 making that submission now but we certainly want to have the time to make

14 those submissions and also we, of course, need to prepare and investigate

15 any proposed witnesses by the Prosecution. Just as in during the

16 Prosecution case, that involves investigations in the field, involves us

17 making our own inquiries so naturally this does take time and, if

18 witnesses from the Prosecution start immediately after the Defence case, I

19 fear we may not have time to prepare for that. I make that point now and

20 we will wait for the motion from the Prosecution.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what the Prosecution is coming up with

22 in any case, Mr. Jones, so obviously I will put no questions to you with

23 regard to rejoinder now because that very much depends on the position

24 which will be taken by the Prosecution.

25 Then there are issues as relate -- that relate to disputed

Page 15164

1 exhibits. I am informed and I wish to have a confirmation of it now, that

2 towards the -- after that you finished with your four remaining witnesses,

3 you intend to -- still intend to file the documents indicating the nature

4 of your objection to the disputed documents.

5 MR. JONES: I apologise, Your Honour, that's not exactly the

6 position. It's that at the end of the evidence we can submit and not a

7 motion - I'm not sure if it should be described as a motion - a statement

8 but as long as there is still evidence including from the Court-appointed

9 expert that would be something that would be incorporated in this document

10 obviously. So for example if the Court appointed expert finds that one of

11 those documents is suspicious that's obviously something we would add to

12 our filing so only at the very end I'm afraid.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. That will be extremely

14 important to us.

15 The other thing is that we were discussing this yesterday, amongst

16 ourselves, the question of the translation of some exhibits, particularly

17 the war diary, P84, if I remember well, and also of what is purported to

18 be the Accused's interview with the Office of the Prosecutor, where there

19 have been several allegations that the translation as it appears in the

20 transcript is not correct. I'm not going to say more than that. I hope

21 that together with several other issues that you are paying this all due

22 attention.

23 The other thing, Mr. Wubben, I want to conclude on this matter, if

24 possible today. The last day we sat before the Christmas recess, you

25 asked for leave to remove Exhibit 561 for the purpose of forensic

Page 15165

1 examination. We decided it orally, gave you permission to do so. It's a

2 month now. Basically the 19th of December is when this happened. What is

3 the position? Has the -- are you still in possession of Exhibit 561? Has

4 it been returned? Have there been any forensic examination? If there

5 have been, is this going to be the subject of further evidence? What's

6 the position?

7 MR. WUBBEN: May I please confirm? Will you please bear me a

8 moment?

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, Ms. Patricia Sellers will make a

11 submission in that respect.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, sorry, Ms. Sellers, sorry,

13 Mr. Wubben, yes, I was helping Judge Eser. Go ahead.

14 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honour. In relationship to

15 document Prosecution Exhibit 561 we will be returning it today. It is in

16 our possession and we would like to announce to the Trial Chamber, also to

17 the Defence, that it was not the subject of forensic analysis and so that

18 will not be any additional evidence that we will be putting before the

19 Trial Chamber, and there were technical reasons why we could not proceed

20 on this point.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So in other words, there will not be any

22 evidence coming forward on this matter.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, only in relationship to the forensic

24 analysis of the document. The document we still believe is a relevant

25 piece of evidence from the Prosecution and that we will -- potential that

Page 15166

1 we will be using that evidence in the further cross-examination of Defence

2 witnesses but only in terms of a forensic report related to the document.

3 It is in that manner that we will not be going for -- with additional

4 forensic --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But that's what I meant, yeah.

6 All right. So that matter is closed.

7 May I also inform you that later on this morning, during the

8 break, because there were some technical hitches that made it impossible

9 for me this morning to sign these motions, we will be signing the -- I'll

10 be signing the Rechlinghousen, as I said, decision, and also two other

11 decisions that we discussed and decided upon in the course of the recess.

12 One is on the Defence motion regarding the consequences of failing to put

13 its case to witnesses pursuant to Rule 90(H)(ii), and the other one in

14 relation to the Defence motion regarding documents from Republika Srpska

15 OBS [phoen] source, and those will be decided later on.

16 I think I have covered -- yes. The other thing that I want to

17 know is, the end of -- let's start -- the end of Defence case, rebuttal,

18 rejoinder, any time that may be needed to conclude the question of the

19 report of the expert that we may not -- not that we will be appointing,

20 the handwriting expert. And reserving, of course, your rights if there

21 will be any left on evidentiary -- at the evidentiary level after that.

22 And we will obviously come to a stage when we will start with the

23 proceedings that usually follow that stage. In other words, for the

24 preparation of the final briefs until closing arguments, et cetera. I

25 know that Mr. Von Hebel discussed this with you, and the -- I just want a

Page 15167

1 confirmation from you that past the stage that I mentioned earlier, in

2 other words when everything has been cooked, ready for eating, in other

3 words that you will -- that you are happy with the time frame that was put

4 to you by Mr. Von Hebel on our behalf.

5 Mr. Jones and Mr. Wubben.

6 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

7 MR. JONES: Yes, we are happy with that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Good. So there are other issues that

9 came up during the 65 ter meeting and that I could mention now but I think

10 we better start with the witness, and later on, between now and the end of

11 next week, I will raise these issues with you as we go along and try to

12 save time today on -- in that way. All right?

13 Yes. Any further issues that you would like to raise before I

14 call in the witness?

15 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Only to update you that today we

16 will file our 94 bis(B) motion regarding the expert Bilic. Still has to

17 be done.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, of course. Okay. Thank you.

19 Usher, please.

20 Now, are arrangements already in place to have her facial -- face

21 distorted, facial appearance distorted? We don't have to go into closed

22 session or open session as she walks in? No? That's what I want to make

23 sure in other words because she will be walking in I suppose from here to

24 her place over there and I want to make sure that if there are cameras

25 operating at the time she will not be shown.

Page 15168

1 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you.

3 For your information, also, on January the 24th, that's Tuesday

4 today week, because of the limited space that we have available and which

5 has to be shared between the various Trial Chambers -- yes, bring her in,

6 please.

7 Oric will stop at roughly 11, 11.30, and then I need to preside

8 over another case.

9 So that's for your information. If on the 23rd, that's the day

10 before, we realise that we still need that hour or so that we will be

11 otherwise losing, then I would suggest to you that instead of starting at

12 nine we start at eight in the morning on that Tuesday, all right? So I'm

13 just alerting you to this and keep your eyes open as we go along.

14 Yes, Madam, good morning to you. And on behalf of

15 Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser and myself I'd like to welcome you to

16 this Tribunal. You are going to start giving evidence in this case, which

17 has been instituted against Naser Oric. Our Rules require that before you

18 do so, you make a solemn declaration equivalent to an oath, a solemn

19 declaration that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the

20 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text of the solemn

21 declaration is contained in the piece of paper that Madam Usher is handing

22 to you now. Please read it out loud and that will be your solemn

23 undertaking with us that you will be testifying the truth and nothing but

24 the truth. Go ahead.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 15169

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. Please make yourself

3 comfortable.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like the cameraman to focus on the witness

8 for a brief moment so that I explain something to her.

9 Yes, Madam, if you look at the monitor in front of you, that is

10 how you are seen outside these four walls. In other words, as per your

11 request as communicated to us by the Defence, the Defence team for Mr.

12 Oric, we have agreed to hide your face from public -- from the public, and

13 therefore the public, who may be following these proceedings outside these

14 four walls, will only be able to see what you are seeing now on the

15 monitor.

16 In other words, no one will be able to recognise your face. That

17 should make it easier for you and more comfortable to start and proceed

18 with your testimony.

19 The procedure here is a very simple one. You will be first asked

20 questions by Madam Vidovic, who is lead counsel for Mr. Oric, since you

21 are a Defence witness, and when she is finished you will then be asked

22 questions by Ms. Sellers from the Prosecution team. Your responsibility

23 under the solemn undertaking that you have made with us is that you answer

24 all questions put to you, independently and irrespective of who is putting

25 the question to you, in a truthful manner, and as fully as possible. When

Page 15170

1 I say as fully as possible, I would like you to avoid beating around the

2 bush and giving us information that has not been asked from you. Please

3 restrict your answers to what is being asked. In other words, my advice

4 to you is to answer the question, the whole question, and nothing but the

5 question. That way you will be able to walk out of this courtroom and go

6 back home as early as possible.

7 Throughout the proceedings, you will be receiving interpretation

8 in your language. For example, I'm speaking in English now, but -- I'm

9 talking in English but as I go along, everything that I say will be

10 translated to you in Serbo-Croat. If you have at any time problems with

11 interpretation, please draw our attention straight away and we will

12 rectify it, all right? Okay. Thank you.

13 Madam Vidovic will be asking you questions and both of you will be

14 using the same language, so Madam Vidovic will now give you a piece of

15 very important advice, which I invite you to follow. Otherwise I will see

16 very many unhappy faces behind the glass panes that there are behind you.

17 Those are the interpreters, and everything that is being said by you and

18 by Madam Vidovic in your own language needs to be translated to us in

19 English.

20 So if you don't allow -- and in French. If you don't allow a

21 short interval of time between question and answer, they will have

22 problems and we will not be exactly very happy.

23 So Madam Vidovic, go ahead.

24 Examined by Ms. Vidovic:

25 Q. Good morning, Witness.

Page 15171

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. As His Honour said we speak the same language, so I wish to ask

3 you to pause after each one of my questions to make it possible for the

4 interpreters to interpret correctly my question and your answer. I will

5 do my best to make a pause, too.

6 First I will ask you to tell Their Honours your first and last

7 name?

8 A. Suhra Djilovic.

9 Q. Your maiden last name is Hasanovic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were born on the 18th of October 1956 in Srebrenica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Your father's name was Ramo and your mother's Habiba, nee

14 Becirevic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You completed primary school in 1970 in Srebrenica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you went to secondary school for economics which you completed

19 in 1975 in Srebrenica?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From 1982, you worked at various administrative jobs in the

22 municipal administrative organs in Srebrenica?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The war found you in Srebrenica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15172

1 Q. You spent the entire war in Srebrenica?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You left Srebrenica in July 1995?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm having a lot of

6 problems in hearing through the head set.

7 Q. Do you have the same problems, Witness?

8 A. Yes, I hear some sounds.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let -- let's do it. Let me get an idea of what

10 kind of sounds you're talking about. The B/C/S is number 6. Could I ask

11 you, Madam Vidovic, to proceed onward with another question. We'll repeat

12 it later but I want to possibly understand what this sound is.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You left Srebrenica in July 1995?

15 A. Yes, in the tragedy that occurred in July 1995 in Srebrenica.

16 Q. In that tragedy --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The idea was to try and understand so I actually

18 switched on to channel 6, which is the channel you are following, and I

19 have an indication there is a kind of an echo, a background echo. It's as

20 if one could hear other people talking. I don't know exactly what it is,

21 so perhaps we could have some assistance. It has happened in the past and

22 the way we solved it was to put down the volume.

23 Are you still encountering the same problem now, Ms. Vidovic?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try, Your Honour. No. It's

25 better now. I think it's better now. We shall see.

Page 15173

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You, Madam?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Da what? Are you still --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's better now. I can understand

5 better.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's better, okay. All right. So I think we have

7 more or less solved it.

8 Since I was not following completely what you were asking of the

9 witness because I was interested in trying to find a solution to the

10 problem, could I now invite you, Madam Vidovic, to repeat your question,

11 please?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In the tragedy that occurred when Srebrenica fell, you lost your

14 husband, brother, your sister lost her family, and you lost many family

15 members, is this correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Just before the war broke out, you were working at administrative

18 jobs in the municipal Secretariat for All People's Defence?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

21 Defence Exhibit? It's a document issued by the municipal staff of the

22 Territorial Defence of Srebrenica, and the ERN is 01830891. The date on

23 the document is the 15th of April 1992.

24 Q. Witness, please take a look at the document when you receive it.

25 The document at the end has the name of the Staff Commander, Suljo

Page 15174

1 Hasanovic, and the secretary, Nurija Porobic. I will quote part of the

2 document to you. Please look at paragraphs 1, 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6. It

3 says, in the document, in the area of Srebrenica municipality, the

4 municipal staff of the TO Srebrenica was established with 22 conscripts as

5 well as the staff protection company with 55 conscripts. Also, the

6 detachment in the following composition was formed and it goes on with a

7 list. Municipal logistics base was formed, an LPA platoon of 40

8 conscripts was established, three district staffs were formed, and to

9 avoid wasting time, you have seen this document, the regional -- the

10 district staff of TO Potocari was established, the TO Suceska, TO Osatica

11 and a communications or liaison platoon was formed.

12 My question is: On the 15th of April 1992, you were working in

13 the Secretariat for All People's Defence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember this sort of decision?

16 A. Yes, I do. This decision was made while the Serbs were still in

17 Srebrenica, and I think it was the last day, when the administrative organ

18 of Srebrenica municipality was working.

19 Q. Was this decision ever implemented to the best of your knowledge?

20 A. No. It could never be implemented because as soon as the 16th of

21 April 1992, the municipality stopped working. It was no longer possible

22 to work because people were leaving Srebrenica, even Nurija who was the

23 secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence left for Tuzla between

24 the 15th and the 16th of April, and Suljo Hasanovic also left Srebrenica.

25 He went to Suceska and he actually hailed from Suceska.

Page 15175

1 Q. Did you go to work in those days?

2 A. Only on the following day, the 16th. My husband and I -- because

3 my husband was also working in the municipal administrative organ and to

4 my surprise, when I arrived there, I saw only the potter locking up the

5 building. He was surprised when he saw me. He said, "Haven't you left

6 yet?" I said, "Why?" And he said, "Madam, war has broken out." And I

7 remember well the porter's name was Srecko. I have forgotten his last

8 name.

9 Q. Very well.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move on to

11 the next question, could this document be given a Defence Exhibit number?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can I have the sequence? D-1001.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do you remember when you left your home?

15 A. Yes. It was the 17th of April 1992.

16 Q. Do you remember where you went?

17 A. When the shelling started on the 17th of April 1992, I was

18 confused. I couldn't believe it, I didn't know what was going on. The

19 shelling was so intense, even around my house, and I had small children.

20 We tried to leave but we couldn't go to Bratunac because they were already

21 coming from Bratunac towards Srebrenica, the Serbs, I mean, so then we

22 tried to go to a Muslim village in the direction of Bajina Basta, towards

23 Osat. In order to reach those villages, we had to go through a Serb

24 village called Pribicevac. There we had a friend with whom we had

25 socialised. I used to buy cheese from them and cream. He would use our

Page 15176

1 telephone when he needed because they didn't have telephone lines in the

2 village. When we came to his house, he took us in, but he was so afraid,

3 he and his wife. I had two young children and she only looked at the

4 children and she spoke to the children.

5 Q. Were these Serbs, Madam?

6 A. Yes, he was a Serb. His first name was Srecko. I don't remember

7 his last name.

8 Q. Let me ask you now, you said that this was in the village of

9 Pribicevac. Did you see any military presence in the village of

10 Pribicevac or not?

11 A. Yes, I did. That was the reason why we did not move ahead. That

12 was the reason why we went to Mr. Srecko's. We wanted to ask him about

13 the goings on in the area since we had seen a large military presence in

14 Zalazje, Brezani. They were positioning mortars in between houses. It

15 was horrific. This was my first encounter and experience with weaponry

16 and uniformed persons.

17 Q. Was the army Serb or Muslim?

18 A. This was a Serb army that was preparing an attack against

19 Srebrenica town.

20 Q. How long did you stay in this Serb house?

21 A. Not very long. First of all we waited for the darkness to set in

22 and then we asked Srecko's son to escort us through the area over to the

23 free territory, to try and circumvent the lines where they had already

24 positions mortars.

25 Q. Did you notice any other artillery there?

Page 15177

1 A. Whether we were on our way, Srecko asked us to avoid these spots

2 although I wanted to see for myself. I was sorry to leave the area.

3 Mr. Srecko is a wonderful plan. He did whatever he could to help us to

4 escort us through the woods to the liberated territory.

5 Q. Just a moment, Madam. I asked you whether you had seen any other

6 artillery pieces. You said you did but nothing further was recorded.

7 A. Yes. These were mortars that were positioned between houses.

8 They were small-calibre artillery because they were not very far from

9 Pribicevac.

10 Q. Did you mention a tank as well?

11 A. Yes, there was a tank going from Brezani through Zalazje in the

12 direction of Sase. This was the only road they could have taken. It was

13 also the road that provided the best view of Srebrenica for shelling

14 purposes.

15 Q. When -- where did you go when you left the house?

16 A. In the woods above Guber. There is a large wooded area near to

17 Guber. We met up with a large group of our neighbours, people who were

18 retreating. These were people who remained in Srebrenica because they had

19 not left earlier. They also retreated into the woods and they told us not

20 to go into the town that it was very dangerous there, that the Serbs had

21 already entered the town, and that they were killing everything that

22 moved, and that they were torching houses and so on and so forth.

23 Q. How long did you stay in the woods with your children?

24 A. For about two weeks.

25 Q. Did you have any accommodation there?

Page 15178

1 A. No. We were staying outdoors. The only shelter we had were the

2 trees. It was November -- it was April. There was rain, even snow. It

3 was very difficult. We had to make some makeshift shelter for the

4 children to sleep under, like spreading nylons, and there was many

5 families with children there.

6 Q. When did you return to Srebrenica?

7 A. After the death of Goran Zekic but we waited two more days after

8 his death because we weren't sure whether they had already withdrawn from

9 the town or not. When Zekic died the Serb army withdrew from Srebrenica

10 town.

11 Q. In June and July 1992, you were in Srebrenica; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Tell us what the situation in Srebrenica was like? Was it

14 peaceful or were there some war operations on?

15 A. Ever since or rather from April 1992 through to July 1995, there

16 was not a moment of peace in Srebrenica.

17 Q. Was Srebrenica shelled in June and July 1992?

18 A. It was in May, June, July and August, through to the

19 demilitarisation that the shelling was very intense. They were shelling

20 all the time. Even when there was a lull in shelling you never knew when

21 the shelling was going to resume.

22 Q. Were there people coming into town who were not from Srebrenica?

23 Can you tell the Trial Chamber in fact how many Srebrenica residents

24 stayed in Srebrenica?

25 A. Out of 6.000 to 7.000 Srebrenica inhabitants only some 300 stayed

Page 15179

1 behind, that's together, men, women and children. All the others fled

2 from Srebrenica in April 1992. Most of them left on the 14th, 15th, and

3 16th of April, even at night, on buses, to Tuzla, to Bajina Basta,

4 wherever they could.

5 Q. Very well. Some 300 native Srebrenica residents stayed behind?

6 A. Yes. These were people who hailed from Srebrenica and resided

7 there.

8 Q. Did other people start coming in?

9 A. Certainly. Already in May, the first refugees from Bratunac

10 started arriving because it was at the time that the Serbs entered

11 Bratunac, drove the people away and looted the town. As Bratunac is the

12 neighbouring municipality to Srebrenica, they fled to the wooded areas

13 just as we did initially and then went on to Srebrenica. Most of them

14 were women and children. They were -- they lacked clothing and footwear.

15 They were naked, practically.

16 Q. Were there others arriving from other towns?

17 A. Yes. In July-August there were people arriving from Zvornik,

18 Visegrad, Rogatica, Han Pijesak, although most of them were from Bratunac.

19 Others arrived from Zepa as well, whenever they felt that the danger there

20 was greater than in Srebrenica.

21 Q. Upon your return to Srebrenica, were you able to see whether the

22 public institutions in the town had been looted?

23 A. Yes. They looted the public institutions and companies first. I

24 experienced this myself. I saw it for myself. Guber is positioned on

25 higher ground compared to the town itself. I was at Guber and I was able

Page 15180

1 to see trucks arriving in the morning from the direction of Bajina Basta

2 and Zalazje. They first looted Arbin Kari [phoen] which is an outdoor

3 spa. They proceeded to loot hotel Domavija, the Drina managing board, the

4 mining managing board, other businesses, then the municipal building, the

5 court, and lastly the hospital as well. We were able to see them taking

6 items out and loading them on to a truck.

7 Q. Did the intellectuals of Srebrenica who used to live there before

8 the war stay behind?

9 A. No. Few of them remained but most of them fled in 1992, as I've

10 already said, on the 14th, 15th or the 16th of April. The Serbs and the

11 Muslims were supposed to meet in Bratunac. I believe it was supposed to

12 take place on the 14th of April 1992. Dr. Sabit Begic attended the

13 meeting, where they were supposed to find a peaceful solution and

14 coexistence for the people in the area. When he returned from the meeting

15 he was very disappointed. He was telling people to leave, that peace

16 could not be preserved. I saw a list that he held which contained the

17 names of all the intellectuals that were supposed to be liquidated,

18 killed. I was there among other people who were curious to know what was

19 going on, and I asked him, "What are you talking about?" He replied, "You

20 heard what I said. Tell your husband not to stay behind. You should

21 leave. You should not stay. Bad things are going to happen."

22 Q. When Dr. Begic was talking about a list, was it a list containing

23 the names of Muslim intellectuals or somebody else?

24 A. Muslim intellectuals, of course.

25 Q. Please, can you tell us who was it that remained in Srebrenica?

Page 15181

1 What was the makeup of the people who stayed behind?

2 A. These were ordinary people. Some of them were educated but most

3 weren't because most of the educated ones had left. So these were the

4 people who stayed behind, whereas those families who were better off had

5 left Srebrenica.

6 Q. You said families who were better off. You said Serb families, in

7 fact?

8 A. Yes, yes. These were Serb families, decent Serb families who did

9 not want to have anything to do with the others who stayed behind and were

10 later involved in the looting and other such activities. But such decent

11 families were very few.

12 Q. Did you know Mr. Dzemal Becirevic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How well did you know him?

15 A. Mr. Becirevic was deputy of Mr. Nedzad Selmanagic, who was deputy

16 chief for business. Since Selmanagic had fled Srebrenica at the very

17 start, he went to his native village. He returned to Srebrenica town at

18 the same time we did, when we returned from the woods, and he tried to do

19 his best to make the economy operational. However, he was unable to do

20 much.

21 Q. In the month of July 1992, did you talk to him?

22 A. Yes. As I had been working there before the war, and there were

23 not many people left who used to work there, he invited me to work with

24 him, to help the people arriving who had no where to stay, had nothing to

25 eat.

Page 15182

1 Q. Did you go and work in the municipal building?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. When?

4 A. In late July 1992.

5 Q. When you came there, were there other people already working

6 there?

7 A. Yes. There was this municipal War Presidency, the members of

8 which were already there.

9 Q. Do you know when they were elected? Did you learn that?

10 A. Yes, I learned that from Mr. Becirevic. It was from the 1st of

11 July 1992 that the War Presidency was operational.

12 Q. Did you come to know whether the War Presidency, ever since its

13 inception in early July 1992, had been seated in the municipal building or

14 not?

15 A. No. They were seated in the PTT building.

16 Q. Up until when?

17 A. Until the offices in the municipal building were refurbished,

18 because the building had been looted, the window panes had been shattered,

19 and they had to scrape and find pieces of furniture, office equipment, in

20 order to move the offices to the municipal building.

21 Q. Do you remember how many office rooms had been made usable by the

22 time you arrived?

23 A. As far as I remember, some five or six of them were made fit to be

24 worked in, although it was all improvised.

25 Q. Do you remember where these rooms were located?

Page 15183

1 A. Yes. We had two office rooms on the ground floor, in the

2 municipal building, and three or possibly four on the second floor.

3 Q. Do you remember who was based in the offices on the ground floor

4 and who was based on the second floor?

5 A. Yes. General Mevludin Becirevic was in one of the rooms, and in

6 the other room, there was the head of the civilian protection.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the name.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And where were those two rooms?

10 A. They were on the first floor.

11 Q. And the other ones?

12 A. On the second floor where the president of the municipal War

13 Presidency, Hajrudin Abdic, was located, the president of the executive

14 board, Hamdija Fejzic, occupied the other room and the third room was

15 occupied by Mustafa Sacirovic aka Mule, in the office that was next to the

16 Office of the President of the War Presidency.

17 Q. Madam, could you please repeat the name of the person in charge of

18 the civilian protection? Because the interpreter did not manage to catch

19 the name?

20 A. Jusuf Halilovic. He occupied the same position before the war as

21 well, that is to say chief of the civilian protection, and he tried to

22 continue discharging his duties although in very improvised conditions.

23 Q. Thank you. You told us that the offices were put together in an

24 improvised manner, that they had to obtain pieces of furniture from

25 different places. Did you have typewriters, mechanical typewriters or any

Page 15184

1 other pieces of equipment that you needed for your work?

2 A. Yes. We had two very old mechanical typewriters, but we lacked

3 inked ribbons, paper. We had only one ribbon. So we lacked stationery;

4 the equipment itself means nothing unless you have the attendant

5 stationery.

6 Q. What happened with the office stationery that was in stock?

7 A. Yes. I do remember. The entire office equipment and stationery

8 was taken away by the Serbs at the time when they were looting the

9 building. This included paper, electrical typewriters, none of those were

10 left behind.

11 Q. I will put a simple question to you now.

12 Before demilitarisation in Srebrenica, did you have occasion to

13 see a single document produced on high-quality imported paper?

14 A. No. We lacked ordinary paper, let alone that sort of paper. We

15 never had that sort of paper.

16 Q. What sort of paper did you use?

17 A. Whenever we were able to find some paper after rummaging the

18 cabinets there, we would use paper that had already been used on one side,

19 for instance take a sheet of paper. If one side had already been used we

20 would use the other side whenever we needed it urgently.

21 Q. In connection with the paper situation, did it change considerably

22 after the demilitarisation?

23 A. No, it remained the same.

24 Q. Did you receive some paper in, for instance, the court?

25 A. We did receive some thin sort of paper in limited quantities after

Page 15185

1 the demilitarisation.

2 Q. Tell us what the situation was like in the library and what

3 happened to papers such as regulations in the municipality?

4 A. Little of that remained. They looted and took everything with

5 them. Whatever was left behind, the refugees who were coming to town

6 would rummage the cabinets in search of paper for cigarettes. You know

7 that people did not have any proper tobacco, they would use plants, dry

8 different plants, and then rummage the cabinets for paper. I even saw

9 people taking books from the town library. There were thousands of people

10 around in the streets before accommodation was found for them. It was

11 very difficult to find accommodation for them. When there was no more

12 space in private homes, the refugees who were subsequently arriving had to

13 be found makeshift accommodation in different warehouses and so on and so

14 forth.

15 Q. Have I understood what you said, they were using this paper also

16 as fuel for fire to keep themselves warm?

17 A. Yes, because there was no firewood, there was no heating, there

18 was no water.

19 Q. You said that Mr. Becirevic called you to the municipality and

20 asked you to work there. Did you work with him or were you given other

21 tasks?

22 A. I worked with Mr. Becirevic for only a brief time because there

23 was nothing for him to do. When they saw that the economy could not be

24 started up again, that everything had been looted, then Hamdija, Dzemo

25 Becirevic, and the president of the War Presidency, Hajrudin Avdic, agreed

Page 15186

1 that I should go and work for him in the municipal War Presidency, that I

2 would be there with him and work there because I was familiar with

3 administrative procedures.

4 Q. And what was the job you started to do?

5 A. Technical secretary. This was all makeshift, improvised. There

6 were no proper conditions to work but we did our best.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

8 shown Exhibit D986?

9 Q. Witness, please look at the document. During our proofing session

10 I showed you this document; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I wish to ask you, when you arrived there, did Mr. Avdic, or did

13 he not, tell you who the members of the War Presidency were?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he tell you who his associates were?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you arrived there -- please take a look at the list. Were

18 these people members of the War Presidency? I will read the names out to

19 you. Avdic, Hajrudin?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Hamdija Fejzic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Next to his name, we have -- it says chairman of the IO?

24 A. That was the executive committee which was part of the municipal

25 War Presidency.

Page 15187

1 Q. When you got there, was Mr. Fejzic introduced to you as the

2 chairman of the executive committee?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Dzemal Becirevic, is that the person you've been mentioning?

5 A. Yes. His name was Dzemaludin but people called him Dzemo,

6 Dzjemo.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. And he was the chief of the economy.

9 Q. Very well, Resid Efendic?

10 A. Yes, he was the secretary of the War Presidency.

11 Q. Naser Oric?

12 A. He was a member of the War Presidency.

13 Q. Very well. Jusuf Halilovic?

14 A. Yes. As I've already said, he was the civilian protection chief.

15 Q. Becir Bogilovic?

16 A. Yes. He was the chief of the public security station. That was

17 its name then, or secretariat.

18 Q. Adziz Nekic?

19 A. Yes, these were deputies but they were also members of the War

20 Presidency.

21 Q. Mirsad Dudic, Sefik Mandzic?

22 A. Yes, him as well.

23 Q. And here we have the name of Mirzet Halilovic, military police

24 commander?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15188

1 Q. Did you know he was a military police commander at the time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The people on this list, were they in the War Presidency all the

4 time, all of them? Take a look at the list.

5 A. No. Not all of them. Some of them were but not all of them.

6 Q. Can you tell us who was there all the time or very often?

7 A. Those who were there all the time were the president of the War

8 Presidency, Hajrudin Avdic, and the chairman of the executive committee,

9 Hamdija Fejzic, Dzemal Becirevic also, who was in charge of the economy,

10 Resid Efendic, the secretary of the municipal War Presidency, and Jusuf

11 Halilovic and Becir Bogilovic.

12 Q. Nekic?

13 A. Yes. Nekic was there as well because he sat with Dzemal Becirevic

14 in the same office.

15 Q. Naser, Dudic, and Mandzic, how often did they come there?

16 A. Rarely. They attended meetings very rarely. They only dropped in

17 from time to time and they rarely attended meetings.

18 Q. Do you remember how often Naser attended meetings in person and

19 how often he came to the War Presidency?

20 A. He came very rarely, perhaps once a week or maybe even once a

21 month, up to December 1992. I heard about Naser when I started working

22 but it was a long time before I met him. I met him or rather I just saw

23 him and I asked people who he was because he came in so rarely. When I

24 first saw him, I was expecting to see him because Naser was a very nice

25 young man. He was almost a child. So that when he came in, I would just

Page 15189

1 look at him. He was a real child. He was so young.

2 Q. I want to ask you something else about this. To the best of your

3 knowledge, after October 1992, was he a member of the War Presidency?

4 A. No, he wasn't. He was no longer a member of the War Presidency

5 and from October until the demilitarisation, I never saw him again in the

6 municipality, at least I didn't see him, and I was there.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now is perhaps a

9 convenient time for a break.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Vidovic. We will have a 30-minute

11 break starting from now.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown a

16 video clip? This is Exhibit P328, tape 4, from 004505 to 004557.

17 THE INTERPRETER: 4757, interpreter's correction.

18 [Videotape played]

19 "... instructions no longer able to apply. [inaudible]. All the

20 commanders of the various Territorial Defence units all became commanders

21 of the War Presidency. [inaudible]. So now we have to [inaudible]. Sefik

22 Mandzic and his units had managed to connect with these various enclaves.

23 [inaudible] included him as well as a member of the War Presidency.

24 [inaudible] included the lads from the area of Osmace [inaudible] War

25 Presidency too. They wanted to be their own separate entity within the

Page 15190

1 [inaudible] Territorial Defence and they have one of their members in the

2 War Presidency. That village now had [inaudible] Under them. This was

3 [inaudible] a military power. [inaudible] completed military academy.

4 Bektic. Nedzad Bektic. His name was Nedzad Bektic, that's N-e-d --

5 sorry, N-e-d [inaudible] a-r, and then Bektic, B-e-k-t-i-c. [inaudible]."

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, please, you heard this part of the interview more than

8 once during our proofing; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you notice that Mr. Oric says -- well, first of all, let me

11 tell you, do you recognise the person who is speaking as Naser?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you notice that he says that all the Territorial Defence

14 commanders together with him became members of the War Presidency?

15 A. Yes. I heard him say that but that's not true, because the local

16 group leaders, only two of them, and later a third, became a member of the

17 War Presidency.

18 Q. And who were these two?

19 A. Dudic and Mandzic, Sefik Mandzic and Mirsad Dudic.

20 Q. And the third one you mentioned?

21 A. Later on, it was Senahid Tabakovic.

22 JUDGE ESER: Just because some problems with the English, the

23 video would say all the commanders from the various Territorial Defence

24 units all became commanders of the War Presidency, did not speak of

25 members of the War Presidency. But it did not speak members of the War

Page 15191

1 Presidency, but of commanders of the War Presidency, whereas later on you

2 asked whether they became members of the War Presidency. So there is a

3 difference between commanders of the War Presidency that was translated

4 from the video and your question where you speak of members. So could you

5 perhaps clarify the difference?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what the person who

7 said Oric -- who was speaking, Oric said was members. We will very soon

8 address the Court with a submission as regards the interview. This is

9 something I perhaps shouldn't say right now but very often, you will come

10 across misinterpretations and that's a problem. However, what both the

11 witness and I heard was that he was speaking of members of the War

12 Presidency, and I'm basing my questions on what we heard.

13 Q. Witness, did you hear that he was speaking of members of the War

14 Presidency and commanders of the territorial units?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I proceed?

17 Q. The other members of the War Presidency, were they, as Naser says

18 here, commanders of the Territorial Defences, Efendic, Halilovic,

19 Bogilovic, Avdic, Fejzic?

20 A. No, none of them were. None of them was a local group leader. We

21 only had local group leaders there. We had no commanders and no army.

22 Let's understand one another. Had we had an army, believe me, what

23 happened would not have happened. We only had groups of people defending

24 Srebrenica and they had their own local group leaders. I never saw any

25 army there. Had we had an army, probably what happened would not have

Page 15192

1 happened. Everybody knows what happened.

2 Q. Thank you. Was Nedzad Bektic a member of the War Presidency,

3 ever?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. The information provided by Oric here, is it correct?

6 A. No, no. I don't know what Mr. Oric was saying. I listened to it

7 but it's unclear. He was probably misinformed, because he wasn't -- or,

8 rather, he was rarely there. He rarely attended meetings of the War

9 Presidency. He was always at the line. He was always in boots. And

10 perhaps he was misinformed. I don't know where he got the information

11 from.

12 Q. Thank you. These local group leaders, did they occasionally come

13 to the War Presidency?

14 A. Some of them did, yes, from time to time, but not all of them.

15 Q. Do you remember whether any of the local group leaders dropped in

16 more often than others?

17 A. Yes. I remember Zulfo Tursunovic, also known as Cica, he would

18 come to the municipality quite often to see the president of the War

19 Presidency.

20 Q. Was there a reason? Could you explain this?

21 A. Mr. Avdic was a man who rarely had someone close to him, but Zulfo

22 Tursunovic was close to him and they would often talk. But this was

23 mainly about refugees, their accommodation, and so on.

24 Q. Is there a reason why Zulfo Tursunovic was close to Avdic?

25 A. They came from the same village, Suceska. That was the name of

Page 15193

1 the village.

2 Q. Can you tell us how long had you worked with Mr. Avdic?

3 A. From late July, early August, up until the setting up of the lower

4 court in Srebrenica.

5 Q. Which year did you have in mind?

6 A. I apologise. It was in 1992.

7 Q. Do you remember when the municipal court in Srebrenica was

8 established?

9 A. It was established sometime in May 1993, but it did not start

10 operating proceeding right away.

11 Q. We will get back to that at a later stage.

12 I have something else to ask you now. Do you want to tell us that

13 you knew Mr. Hajrudin Avdic well?

14 A. Yes, I worked with him. I knew him well.

15 Q. In your opinion, was he the sort of personality who would be a

16 pushover, who would -- who could have other views imposed on him?

17 A. No, far from that. He was a man of authority and influence, quite

18 an educated man. He was an electrical engineer.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

20 Prosecution Exhibit P14? For the record, this is allegedly the decision

21 of the armed forces of Srebrenica dated 22 December 1992. I will quote

22 the decision. "The -- pursuant to the conclusions reached at the meeting

23 of the Srebrenica OS staff on 22nd December 1992 the commander of the

24 Srebrenica armed forces issues the following order. A meeting of the War

25 Presidency and the Srebrenica OS staff is to be held on the 23rd of

Page 15194

1 December 1992 at 1000 hours. The president of the War Presidency is

2 hereby obliged to ensure the quorum before the start of the meeting."

3 Q. First of all, you were working in the War Presidency in this

4 particular period of time, in December 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you see this document before your coming to The Hague?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Can you please take a look at the document now? Does the document

9 show that it had been received by the War Presidency?

10 A. No, it doesn't, because had it been received, the document should

11 have in the upper left-hand corner, "Delivered to" at such and such a time

12 to such and such a person. Since it does not contain this it shows

13 nothing of the sort.

14 Q. At the time you were working as a technical secretary in the

15 Presidency. Would such document end up in your hands?

16 A. Yes, definitely. Whatever was sent to us first came to me and

17 then I would forward the documentation to Hajrudin Avdic, the president of

18 the War Presidency of Srebrenica.

19 Q. At the time you worked there, did you ever receive a document

20 wherein Naser was ordering something to Mr. Avdic?

21 A. No, never. I don't think that Mr. Naser Oric was ever able to

22 issue any orders to Mr. Hajrudin Avdic because Mr. Hajrudin Avdic was the

23 president of the municipal War Presidency and was his superior, as well as

24 the superior of all the others working in the different institutions. It

25 was all improvised.

Page 15195

1 Q. Do you know whether Naser ever scheduled any meetings of the

2 Presidency?

3 A. No. The president of the municipal War Presidency, that's to say

4 Mr. Hajrudin Avdic, scheduled meetings.

5 Q. Do you know on what terms Mr. Naser Oric and Mr. Avdic were? Was

6 it -- were these relations correct?

7 A. Yes, they were correct. They cooperated as far as they could.

8 Q. You told us that you had occasion to see that Naser Oric attended

9 several meetings of the War Presidency or that he came to the building of

10 the War Presidency. Can you tell us what sort of a personality did he

11 display? Was he an imposing person?

12 A. No. He would just drop by briefly to discuss certain matters and

13 then leave. He is such a sensitive person, he was young and quite

14 handsome at the time.

15 Q. Was he a person who would impose himself on others,?

16 A. No, no. Everybody liked Naser, including the children. Children

17 wanted to style themselves after him, to have the same hair style and so

18 on.

19 Q. Do you know -- why did they in fact like him?

20 A. Whenever he was passing in the street, people, including the

21 children, admired him. He was a sort of idol to them.

22 Q. Why is that? Was there some specific event that triggered this?

23 A. Yes. In the month of April of 1992, there was a group of Arkan's

24 men who wanted to make an incursion into the town, and Naser managed to

25 foil this action of theirs and to prevent them from massacring the people

Page 15196

1 in the town, and I believe this is what was the reason for that.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

3 another video clip, part of P318, to stop at 000538?

4 [Videotape played]

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please, do you recognise anyone here on this still?

7 A. Only the lad in uniform in the middle.

8 Q. Is that the one to whom the arrow is pointing?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That's the young man who is in centre left of the still wearing a

11 uniform. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who that is?

12 A. His name is Hazim. He was a refugee from Voljavica, from the

13 Bratunac area. He lived in my neighbourhood as a refugee. He was

14 accommodated in a house near to where I lived.

15 Q. Did he resemble someone?

16 A. Yes. He resembled Naser. He tried to imitate him, you know.

17 Before I got to know Naser well, I always winced at seeing him because I

18 thought it was him. Many people thought that he was Naser, and vice

19 versa. They would confuse the two.

20 Q. Let's go back to Hajrudin Avdic now. Mr. Hajrudin Avdic and the

21 War Presidency, did it try in any way to introduce law and order in the

22 town?

23 A. Yes. Hajrudin Avdic and all the other members of the War

24 Presidency tried to introduce law and order not only in Srebrenica town

25 but in the entire Srebrenica area. You know what the situation was like.

Page 15197

1 We were isolated. We didn't have any electricity, running water, no

2 communications with the outside world. We had no food, no fuel for

3 heating, no clothing. On the other side, we had many refugees, first

4 those from Bratunac, then as I said from Vlasenica, Rogatica, part of Han

5 Pijesak, Zvornik, Rogatica and so on.

6 Q. What was he trying to do? Do you remember?

7 A. First of all he tried to introduce peace to the town. Many were

8 expelled, lost family members, had no accommodation, spent days in the

9 streets. There was general dissatisfaction and somebody had to be present

10 to explain to them, to be patient, to try and find accommodation and food

11 for them.

12 Q. Was he ever successful in his attempts to do these things in

13 Srebrenica?

14 A. No. He wasn't. It was impossible, despite his endeavours, the

15 situation was horrific, terrible.

16 Q. Did he try to keep the people who were coming into town under

17 control in some way?

18 A. Yes. He was trying to do that through the police force. Often

19 times he would call Becir Bogilovic, who was chief of the police, to

20 discuss ways in which peace could be restored.

21 Q. Did he try to have lists made of persons coming to town and

22 leaving the town, to keep a record of the sort?

23 A. Yes. There were attempts at that but it was impossible because

24 whenever people came to town and realised that there was no food or

25 accommodation, they would go back to the villages in the free territory --

Page 15198

1 on the free territory. They would go to -- back to the countryside where

2 there was land to be farmed and some food to be had.

3 Q. I understood you to mean that there was a constant flux of people

4 moving to and fro?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. At one point we had about 30.000 refugees in

6 such a confined area, and these people were constantly on the move, going

7 into the countryside and back into town. I apologise. They would do so

8 whenever the circumstances permitted it.

9 Q. I have another question in connection with this. Was there some

10 sort of a pass required in order to enter Srebrenica or some other sort of

11 document?

12 A. No. This was far from possible.

13 Q. Did you ever see anyone entering Srebrenica with some sort of a

14 pass?

15 A. No, never.

16 Q. To your knowledge, did Hajrudin Avdic and War Presidency have

17 accurate information about what was happening in the entire general area?

18 A. No. It was not possible. We did not have any sort of

19 communication. The only source of communication were people who -- or

20 rather source of information were people, refugees who would come to town

21 or the wounded victims of the shelling.

22 Q. To your knowledge, was there an organised courier system?

23 A. No. It could not have existed because people could not move.

24 Nobody would risk their lives to do that sort of job.

25 Q. Did you hear that in spite of that some persons tried to do the

Page 15199

1 job and got killed in the process?

2 A. Yes. And in fact that was why it was difficult to organise the

3 police service. People who would be moving through the town and into the

4 countryside would get killed very often.

5 Q. At the time, were -- was there disinformation spread around in the

6 course of 1992 through to the demilitarisation?

7 A. Yes. Very often refugees coming from the countryside would tell

8 us that this or that particular village had been captured, fallen, this

9 and that person had been killed, and then at the end of the day, one would

10 find out that this was an untruth, this was a lie.

11 Q. What was the situation like in Srebrenica in July 1992?

12 A. It was already quite chaotic. Many refugees, most of whom had no

13 accommodation or food, diseases were thriving. The hospital was unable to

14 function. We did not have food or medicines.

15 Q. In the summer of 1992, was Srebrenica isolated?

16 A. Srebrenica was in isolation from April 1992 through to the 12th of

17 July 1995.

18 Q. However, in the summer of 1992, was there some sort of

19 communication established with the outside world in spite of that?

20 A. Yes. There was only the information line.

21 Q. What was that?

22 A. These were amateur radio operators. It was them who operated this

23 communications line.

24 Q. Where were they located?

25 A. In the PTT building.

Page 15200

1 Q. Do you recall who headed this particular service?

2 A. Yes, I do. If you can just give me a moment.

3 Q. You said that these were ham radio operators and that there was

4 this service in the municipal -- in the municipal organ. Do you recall

5 who headed the service?

6 A. Just a minute. If I can have some time to try and recollect.

7 Q. Very well. We can get back to that later. Do you recall who

8 worked there?

9 A. Yes. I do. I know that Ibrahim Becirevic worked there, with two

10 lads, twins, from Bratunac. Their last name was Dautbasic. I can't

11 recall their first names.

12 Q. This service, was it part of the War Presidency?

13 A. Yes. The service was part of the War Presidency, as were all the

14 other institutions in the municipality. All the municipal institutions

15 were under the War Presidency.

16 Q. Does the name of Alic mean anything to you?

17 A. Yes. Alic was the chief of the service and member of the War

18 Presidency. I recall now.

19 Q. Do you mean part of War Presidency or member of the War

20 Presidency?

21 A. Member of the War Presidency but the entire service was part of--

22 Q. Part of what?

23 A. Part of the war -- municipal War Presidency.

24 Q. You told us that there were amateur radio operators there. Was

25 anybody allowed to just go over there and use the equipment?

Page 15201

1 A. No. This would be impossible. There were many refugees, all of

2 whom wanted to get in touch with their family outside. And this was the

3 only line through which they were able to get in touch with theirs, with

4 fair families, so there was a decision in place that all those who wanted

5 to use the equipment had to first approach the president of the War

6 Presidency, Mr. Hajrudin Avdic, who would then issue them with a permit or

7 a certificate of a sort enabling them to get in touch with their family.

8 Q. Was it always Mr. Avdic issuing these certificates? What happened

9 in his absence?

10 A. Hamdija Fejzic would do that in his absence.

11 Q. In your earlier testimony you told us that on the second floor of

12 the municipal building near to the office of the president of the War

13 Presidency, Mustafa Sacir had his office. Do you remember what his duty

14 was?

15 A. Yes, I do. He ran a service in charge of collecting information

16 on the war crimes and damages, war damages.

17 Q. Do you recall whether he worked on his own or whether he worked

18 with somebody else?

19 A. He had two associates, Sabahudin Gluhic and Edhem Vranjkovina also

20 known as Gedjo. They filmed together and collected the information

21 together. He was their boss.

22 Q. Do you know whether they were independent or part of another

23 service?

24 A. They were part of the municipal War Presidency.

25 Q. Were they part of the information service or not?

Page 15202

1 A. Yes, they were part of the information service. They cooperated

2 with them, brought the materials after they had filmed and so on.

3 Q. Very well.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

5 two exhibits, two Defence Exhibits, simultaneously D266 and D865?

6 Q. Please look at D266 first. This is an order issued by the

7 municipal War Presidency of Srebrenica dated the 16th of August 1992. It

8 seems to have been signed by Mr. Avdic. And then please look at document

9 D865, also an order signed by someone. Do you remember these documents?

10 Did you see them before your arrival in The Hague?

11 A. Yes, I remember. I typed out this order.

12 Q. The typewritten one?

13 A. Yes. I typed it out and gave it to Edhem Vranjkovina and Gluhic,

14 Sabahudin myself.

15 Q. Do you recognise this signature as somebody's signature?

16 A. Yes. This is the signature of president of the municipal War

17 Presidency, Hajrudin Avdic.

18 Q. Very well. Now please look at this other document, D865. It's

19 also an order but it's handwritten. Whose handwriting is this, do you

20 know?

21 A. Yes, I do. This is the handwriting of the president of the

22 municipal War Presidency, Hajrudin Avdic. Whenever I wasn't there, he

23 would write orders by hand and give them to Edhem Vranjkovina or Sabahudin

24 Gluhic or Edhem Sacirovic.

25 Q. Did you know Murat Efendic?

Page 15203

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know what his role was during the war?

3 A. Yes, I do. He was a member of the municipal War Presidency, but

4 he was in Sarajevo, not in Srebrenica. He fled in 1992, as did many

5 others.

6 Q. Do you know whether anyone had contacts with him from Srebrenica,

7 from July or August 1992 or the summer of 1992, until the

8 demilitarisation?

9 A. Yes, yes. Hajrudin Avdic had contacts with him through the

10 information service, through the ham radio operators.

11 Q. Do you remember how this was done? What sort of contacts were

12 these? What was this about?

13 A. These were mostly appeals for help and various reports. We would

14 report on the situation on the ground, on the free territory of Srebrenica

15 municipality.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown D575, a

17 document issued by the Srebrenica War Presidency dated the 6th of April

18 1993? It's entitled, "Statement."

19 Q. Witness, please look at this document. Do you agree that there is

20 a -- the heading of the War Presidency of Srebrenica and that below the

21 text, to the left, it says, received by ham radio, and then there is a

22 mark and it says, received by Ilijaz Omerovic, and to the right it says

23 War Presidency, Srebrenica municipality, and something that looks like M

24 Efendic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15204

1 Q. Is this the manner of communication that you described when you

2 said that the War Presidency communicated through the information service

3 with its representative in Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes. This is how communications took place.

5 Q. Thank you. In connection with this I want to ask you the

6 following. How was this information generated, do you know?

7 A. People would come from the ground, and from the free territories.

8 People who had been expelled would come to the town, and they would first

9 come to the municipal building to ask for assistance, and to say that

10 there were wounded people out there, that it was difficult to bring them

11 in, that the situation was terrible, that civilians were getting killed.

12 There was nothing we could do to help them because we had no means at our

13 disposal, and then we would send out these appeals and reports asking

14 Sarajevo Tuzla and the international community to assist us. The only

15 source were ham radio operators and these communiques and appeals and so

16 on.

17 Q. Technically, how was this generated? Did you type it out? Did

18 Mr. Avdic dictate this to someone? Technically, how was it done?

19 A. Sometimes I would type out a report or an appeal and sometimes

20 Mr. Avdic himself would go to the post office where the ham radio

21 operators were and he would dictate to them directly, it would all depend

22 on the situation, because I wasn't always there when there was heavy

23 shelling, very often I couldn't leave my house, I couldn't reach the

24 municipal building from my house.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 15205

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

2 document D417, D417. The ERN number is 01787880, and this is information

3 from the information service of the War Presidency dated the 11th of

4 November 1992.

5 Q. Did you see this document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is this the information service of the War Presidency? Is this

8 the same service?

9 A. Yes. It's the same service, though the War Presidency had offices

10 in the municipal building and the information service in the post office.

11 Q. Apart from this service, was there any other similar service in

12 Srebrenica, to the best of your knowledge?

13 A. The question isn't clear to me.

14 Q. I meant to ask: Was there another information service apart from

15 the municipal information service?

16 A. No. This was the only information service and the only means of

17 communication were the ham radio operators.

18 Q. Very well. Now, please look at this document and I will read out

19 a part to you, which says -- it's around the middle of the first

20 paragraph, and it says, "Concentration of the army has been observed

21 probably the Uzice and Valjevo corps. To date in the last two months 30

22 people have been killed including 12 children in the area, about 70 people

23 have been wounded, hundreds of facilities have been destroyed, all

24 religious and school facilities have been almost entirely destroyed, not a

25 single residential building is undamaged. And what is worse, people

Page 15206

1 cannot survive in the camps in the woods. With the excuse that the

2 hydroelectric power plant is being secured against the Green Berets, the

3 Yugoslav military hordes shell this area daily. The population of this

4 area has been left to these criminals as game to be hunted down."

5 Do you remember seeing this document before?

6 A. Yes, I typed it out. I was so terrified while I was typing it out

7 that I made a lot of mistakes. What was important was, regardless of

8 grammatical errors and so on, to get this information through. I was

9 trying to do this as quickly as possible because shells were landing close

10 to the municipal building, and I was terrified while I was typing this

11 out. We really needed assistance.

12 Q. Do you remember to whom you gave it?

13 A. I gave it to Mr. Alic. Mr. Alic was waiting for me to finish

14 typing it out to hand it to him so that he could send it. I remember him

15 telling me there is no heading, and I said, "Sir, put it there yourself.

16 You can see what a hurry I'm in. I'm afraid for my life and you're

17 talking about a heading."

18 Q. And how was this information obtained, do you remember?

19 A. From people who brought the wounded into hospital, people who

20 arrived in town, people who were fleeing from their homes. They all came

21 to town and they had all heard that there was a municipal War Presidency

22 who might be able to help them. The corridors were full. I recall this

23 very well. The building was full of children.

24 Q. All right. I'll show you another document now.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown

Page 15207

1 document RR321924. This is a document bearing the heading, "The Republic

2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina Srebrenica municipality War Presidency." The date

3 is the 9th of November 1992, and the title is, "Decision on appointment."

4 I will quote to you what it says. It says "Asim Djozic from

5 Srebrenica is hereby appointed as the member of the executive board in the

6 field of agriculture and forestry. Osman Suljic from Srebrenica is hereby

7 appointed as a member of the executive board in the field of industry and

8 mining. Avdo Hasanovic from Srebrenica is hereby appointed as the member

9 of the executive board in the field of health and social welfare. Nesib

10 Mandzic from Srebrenica is hereby appointed as a member of the executive

11 board in the field of education and information. Abdurahman Malkic from

12 Poznanovic is hereby appointed as the member of the executive board in the

13 field of transport and communications. Aziz Mujic is hereby appointed as

14 the secretary of the executive board," and it says, "No decision shall

15 enter into force on the day of issuing." The signature seems to be that

16 of Mr. Hajrudin Avdic.

17 First of all I want to ask you whether you saw this decision

18 before I showed it to you on your arrival in The Hague?

19 A. Yes, I did, because I typed it out.

20 Q. What body was this executive board part of?

21 A. It was part of the service of the municipal War Presidency and

22 initially there was only the chairperson of the executive board. It was

23 only on the 9th of November that the decision on appointment was issued

24 appointing these members of the executive board.

25 Q. Do you remember -- I will now ask you to think about Mr. Hamdija

Page 15208

1 Fejzic a little bit. What was he by profession?

2 A. He was an economist. He had graduated from the faculty of

3 economics at the university.

4 Q. Very well. Would you say that Mr. Fejzic in your view it was an

5 educated man?

6 A. Yes. He was very literate. He had a university education. Of

7 course he had to be both literate and educated.

8 Q. Did you have occasion to work with him? Did you see him write

9 something? Did you ever type for him?

10 A. Yes. As I was there on my own to begin with, what I'm trying to

11 say is that in 1992, I was the only one working with Mr. Hamdija Fejzic

12 and the president of the municipal War Presidency, Mr. Avdic. As we were

13 all on the same floor I would work for both of them. Whenever they had

14 something.

15 Q. Did he make grammar mistakes when speaking or writing?

16 A. No, he didn't. He was a really educated man. And he was a very

17 decent sort of person.

18 Q. To the best of your knowledge, were the members of the executive

19 board members of the War Presidency ex officio?

20 A. Yes. As the executive board was part of the municipal War

21 Presidency, of course, they were members.

22 Q. Very well. Were they members or did they work in the War

23 Presidency?

24 A. No. They were not members but they worked in the War Presidency.

25 I do apologise. The question wasn't clear to me, because this Asim

Page 15209

1 Djozic, I don't know him at all. He was but I don't know him.

2 Q. Please look at the name --

3 A. The name Avdo Hasanovic was a member of the War Presidency?

4 Q. Please let's dwell on Avdo Hasanovic for a while. Is this the

5 same person as Dr. Avdo Hasanovic who had something to do with the

6 hospital?

7 A. Yes. He was the director of the hospital in Srebrenica during the

8 war.

9 Q. You told us that you arrived in late July 1992. From when did

10 Dr. Avdo Hasanovic start coming to the War Presidency, if he did at all?

11 A. When I started working, I noticed Avdo Hasanovic right away. He

12 often came to see Mr. Avdic. If someone was with Mr. Avdic he would wait

13 in my office and he would talk about the problems and I was familiar with

14 that, about the problems in the hospital, they didn't have enough food,

15 bedding, medicines, bandages, heating fuel. We had no electricity, no

16 water. Communications were cut off.

17 Q. Please look at the form of this decision. Look at it well. Above

18 the title is the heading and to the right is something that's handwritten.

19 You told us that you typed this out. What does this handwritten bit mean

20 to you?

21 A. No. It doesn't mean anything to me. It wasn't there when I was

22 typing it. All that was there was the typed part and what it says here at

23 the bottom, submitted to and so on. When I typed out a document, it had

24 to be a complete document. I would never have omitted to say, "Submitted

25 to," for example.

Page 15210

1 Q. Now that you're mentioning this "submitted to", let's clarify

2 this. On the right-hand side, at the bottom, is the signature and on the

3 left-hand side at the bottom it says, "Submitted to the above-named and

4 the archives." Let me ask you now: As I understand it, throughout your

5 life, both before, during, and after the war, you worked in state organs,

6 is this correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please, was it usual or not to include in documents all those to

9 whom the document is submitted?

10 A. Yes. That would make the document valid. Without it, it would

11 mean nothing. It would be only a draft document or an incomplete text.

12 Q. If a decision were to be made only for the purposes of the

13 archives, would this be designated accordingly?

14 A. Yes. Of course, it would. It would say, "To be delivered to the

15 archives, the files." For short, "A-A."

16 Q. Very well. If someone were to dictate one such decision to you,

17 without telling you to whom the decision should be delivered, could this

18 decision subsequently be acted upon?

19 A. No. It would, to me it would mean that it was just a draft of a

20 decision that could not be acted upon and could not be forwarded to

21 anyone.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document be

24 assigned an exhibit number, please.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document, Madam Vidovic will become

Page 15211

1 Defence Exhibit D1002.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown a video

3 clip, which is Prosecution Exhibit P317. The video is 3939, one of two.

4 Could the video be played from 000549 to 000559, and to stop at 005509.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 59.

6 [Videotape played]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry for the interruption, please proceed.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Can you tell us who this is?

10 A. Yes, Mr. Oric.

11 Q. Could you play the clip on and stop at 00060632?

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You can see some people there. Do you know who these people are?

15 A. No. I don't know. I can't recognise them.

16 Q. Have you ever seen them?

17 A. I only saw them that day when I brought them into this room.

18 Q. Do you have any idea as to who these people were?

19 A. These were people who came from Tuzla with Dr. Nedret, and this

20 was summer 1992.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we proceed with the tape,

22 please?

23 [Videotape played]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. I recognise Ms. Sellers.

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would suggest that Defence counsel

Page 15212

1 could ask Ms. Djilovic to say which people is she referring to that she

2 doesn't know. From our screen, they are very -- as a matter of fact, it's

3 very difficult to see. I see two dark figures, and there was one person

4 with blond hair. Is she referring to those three? Because now she's

5 talked about she didn't recognise them but then she brought them in. But

6 there is also another person there who is in a white shirt.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's fair enough. Let's go back and review

8 the video and just try to take into account what has been pointed out by

9 Ms. Sellers and repeat the question or at least indicate to the witness

10 the persons you are interested in.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I was asking you about the persons one can see at 0632?


14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thee two persons one can see in

15 uniforms.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, one switches on the

17 computer evidence mode, we have a still at 0632, which shows just two

18 persons, both male, and the witness is being directed to these two

19 persons.

20 Do you want to, for the time being, ask the witness a question, a

21 specific question, in relation to these two persons? Then if you are

22 interested in other persons we'll move forward with the video and you put

23 the question.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would also like

25 the witness to see the blond person and to ask her whether she knows the

Page 15213

1 person.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. One moment before we move any further.

3 Judge Eser would like to put a question.

4 JUDGE ESER: The witness had mentioned that they had brought in

5 certain persons, so before we go on, I would like to ask whether she also

6 had brought in the two people in uniform which we had seen on the screen

7 so far.

8 Did you understand my question?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

10 JUDGE ESER: So when you say yes, does it mean that you also had

11 brought in these two persons in uniform?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only escorted them into the

13 office. I'll explain this to you later.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much, Judge Eser.

15 Madam Vidovic, please go ahead.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Stop.

17 Q. Do you recognise this person?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was this person in the company of these young men you escorted?

20 Were they together?

21 A. Yes, they were together.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please play the video and

24 stop at 000636?

25 [Videotape played]

Page 15214

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. My question to you in connection with this is as follows: Is it

3 true that you viewed this footage with me several times during proofing?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recognise the room?

6 A. Yes. This is the room of the executive committee of the municipal

7 War Presidency where Hamdija Fejzic as the president of the executive

8 committee worked. That's his office.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we play the video please and

11 stop at 000725?

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do you recognise these people?

15 A. Yes. I know the young man in uniform and the lady with him.

16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who these people are?

17 A. This is Mr. Halilovic and the lady's first name is Ajka. I don't

18 know her family name.

19 Q. Do you recall the whole situation and why these people were there?

20 A. Yes. Mr. Avdic was absent that day. Hamdija Fejzic, the

21 president of the executive committee, stood for him. And all these people

22 arrived there with the same purpose, asking for permission to get in touch

23 with their family members with the help of the ham radio operators.

24 Q. Do you recall who this lady came with?

25 A. With Mirzet Halilovic. I believe that the man filming the footage

Page 15215

1 was with them as well.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the first name of the Halilovic that you

3 identified here.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mirzet.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did Naser come together with them or on his own or otherwise?

8 A. Mr. Naser Oric came on his own. He asked for Hamdija Fejzic. I

9 asked him to step in and to wait for Mr. Fejzic. In the meantime others

10 arrived including those young men from Tuzla who told me that they had

11 come with Nedret and that they would like to get in touch with their

12 family, probably in Tuzla or somewhere else, and I escorted them into

13 Hamdija Fejzic's office as well.

14 Q. Do you recall who filmed this?

15 A. No, I don't. It was a young man who was together with this lady

16 and I don't think anyone of -- anyone was there on official business.

17 Q. I -- do you recall seeing here in this footage a typewriter?

18 A. Yes, I do recall. There is an outdated mechanical typewriter that

19 was left behind. This is one of the two typewriters we had in the

20 municipality. It lacked the ribbon which meant that practically one

21 couldn't use it. There was another such a type writer that was in my

22 office and I used it to the extent we had to use it because we only had

23 that one ribbon.

24 Q. I will now put questions to you in relation to the War Presidency

25 itself. Do you recall the way the Presidency functioned?

Page 15216

1 A. Can you please be more specific?

2 Q. What did they in fact do or what did they try to do?

3 A. Members of the War Presidency tried to restore law and order,

4 first of all, to make the police force operational, as well as the

5 hospital, to collect food on the free territory and across the territory

6 for the hospital, for the refugees.

7 Q. Did the War Presidency try to organise mobilisation?

8 A. Yes. There were such attempts but they were never successful. It

9 was impossible. Besides, there was no need for that. People volunteered

10 themselves to protect their own families. So there was no point really.

11 Q. What makes you think that they failed to organise mobilisation?

12 A. Why?

13 Q. Was it the fact that they had no access to refugees?

14 A. Let me tell you this: When you want to mobilise a person you have

15 to have conditions in place. If you want to send the person to the front

16 line you have to have food, clothing, footwear and, of course, weapons.

17 We had none of that and we were unable to mobilise people without these

18 things. Nobody could order people to go to the front line, not even

19 Mr. Avdic, because the persons first concern was in that case you have to

20 provide my family with food, you have to provide me with clothing,

21 footwear, weapons. We had none of that. We were isolated and we had

22 many, many refugees, the town and the entire area.

23 Q. Did you ever come to know that there were weapons but they were in

24 possession of the people who refused to fight, to become fighters?

25 A. Yes. Whenever a person got hold of a piece of weapon, they would

Page 15217

1 keep the weapon for themselves, for their own protection when they went in

2 search of food, when they went through villages in search of corn and so

3 on and so forth, they concealed the weapons because they wanted to keep

4 the weapons for themselves.

5 Q. Did the War Presidency try to do something about these weapons?

6 A. Yes. On several occasions, I heard Mr. Avdic calling Bogilovic

7 and telling him to work on his police officers, to try and do something

8 about it. However, this wasn't a true police force. They had no uniforms

9 or weapons. He'd plead with them to go around and -- in search of weapons

10 but it was difficult.

11 Q. Did the War Presidency have meetings before demilitarisation?

12 A. Yes. They did. But rarely. Maybe once or twice a month.

13 Q. Why were these meetings held rarely?

14 A. Because of the general situation in the town and in the free

15 territory. There was unabated shelling. It was unsafe to move around.

16 During shelling, the priorities were the municipal building, the hospital

17 and so on.

18 Q. Do you recall the persons present at these meetings?

19 A. Yes, I do. These were members of the municipal War Presidency.

20 Q. Did local group leaders attend on some occasions?

21 A. Yes, they did on some occasions but quite rarely. The conditions

22 did not permit them to move around or to leave the front lines. They were

23 under continuous attack and they could not afford to lose the areas of

24 territory that were still free.

25 Q. Did you yourself personally sit out these meetings?

Page 15218

1 A. No. I did not. It was only on some occasions when Mr. Avdic

2 asked me to write some reports about what had been discussed at the

3 meeting that I would attend to make it easier for me to do the job.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what your precise

5 duties were as a technical secretary?

6 A. My duty was to follow the work and to assist Mr. Avdic in his

7 work. If two or three parties came to see him all at once, I would make

8 sure who would go in first, who would stay behind. Then I would type out

9 whatever was necessary. But we mostly typed out appeals for help.

10 Q. As a technical secretary, were you aware of who was coming to see

11 Mr. Avdic?

12 A. Yes. Whoever came to see Mr. Avdic had to go through my office.

13 I had to announce their visit and only then could they be received.

14 Q. Were you aware of the reasons which prompted the persons to see

15 Mr. Avdic?

16 A. Not always but for the most part I did because the people

17 themselves would tell me. Normally, if the chief of police came, it was

18 for some sort of a problem. If Mr. Avdo came from the health centre or

19 manager Hasanovic from the hospital, the motives were that they needed

20 food or medicines, and I believe I've already mentioned all the items that

21 were needed.

22 Q. In the absence of Mr. Hajrudin Avdic, did you receive messages

23 that were for him?

24 A. Yes. I would relay to him whatever verbal or written messages

25 were left for him.

Page 15219

1 Q. Did you have occasion to see the messages that came from

2 Mr. Efendic through the ham radio operators?

3 A. Yes, I did, because for the most part I would be receiving those

4 messages.

5 Q. Did Mr. Hamed Alic frequently have contact was Mr. Avdic, if you

6 know?

7 A. Yes, he did it daily. This was a gentleman who was the chief of

8 communications. He worked with a ham radio operators. He worked in the

9 information service. He would often drop in. He would bring in an appeal

10 or a report and so on.

11 Q. Did Mr. Mustafa Sacirovic known as Mule come to see him?

12 A. Yes. Mustafa came on a daily basis. Almost every morning he

13 would come to meet him and tell him about the situation, what they had

14 seen. He would bring him the films and so on.

15 Q. Did you know who Mr. Hajrudin Avdic's associates were?

16 A. Yes, I did. I was there and I saw them.

17 Q. Did Mr. Bogilovic come to see Mr. Hajrudin Avdic?

18 A. Very often. For a while, he didn't come, when he was wounded, but

19 then afterwards he came again, and I remember he used a stick when he

20 walked. I remember him with his stick. He never really recovered. In

21 1993 he didn't leave because his wound never healed properly. He was

22 unable to treat it properly.

23 Q. Do you recall whether he arrived on his own or with someone? I'm

24 talking about the period before December 1992, Madam.

25 A. He would usually come in with Mirzet Halilovic or very often with

Page 15220

1 Nurija Jusufovic. I remember his name now.

2 Q. Did they have meetings with Mr. Avdic, do you remember?

3 A. Yes, they did.

4 Q. I now wish to ask you, to the best of your recollection, did

5 Nurija Jusufovic come to see Mr. Avdic on his own as well?

6 A. Yes, he did, often, usually when there were problems. Nurija

7 Jusufovic was a commander of the civilian police. Let's call it a police

8 force although it was not a proper police force because they didn't have

9 uniforms or weapons or any kind of working conditions, but they did try.

10 Q. Did Mirzet Halilovic come to see Mr. Avdic on his own? Do you

11 recall that?

12 A. Yes. I recall that he did.

13 Q. Did it happen often or rarely?

14 A. You could say that he came quite often. Hajrudin would often ask

15 him to come and see him. He even criticised him on occasion.

16 Q. Please, to the best of your knowledge, what did Mirzet Halilovic

17 do? What was his task?

18 A. He was a kind of commander of some sort of military police. I

19 think it existed only on paper, because to have a military police and not

20 have an army, that's ridiculous, really. Attempts were being made to

21 introduce law and order, so there was the civilian police and the military

22 police, but they all worked together. They shared premises and

23 everything.

24 Q. Were you able to see who Mirzet Halilovic's superior was?

25 A. Yes. Becir Bogilovic.

Page 15221

1 Q. And what is the basis for your conclusion?

2 A. Whenever there was a problem, Hajrudin would call Becir and say,

3 Why do you allow this and why do you allow that? I wasn't there but I

4 could hear them through the wall because it was a very thin wall, a very

5 thin partition dividing his office from mine and he would raise his voice

6 and when he raised his voice I would hear what he was saying. And he

7 would complain that there was nothing he could do about him, that he was a

8 man who did what he liked, especially when he got a bit drunk.

9 Q. Could you clarify, Madam, who was complaining about whom?

10 A. Mr. Bogilovic was complaining to Hajrudin about Mirzet Halilovic,

11 saying that he was insubordinate, that he wouldn't obey. That he did

12 whatever he wanted on his own initiative, and so on.

13 Q. Let me ask you something else now. The military police you

14 mentioned, that was headed by Mirzet, did they have uniforms, do you

15 remember?

16 A. No, no. That's why I said it was all makeshift. It was all

17 improvised. They may have had a piece or two of a uniform, and maybe

18 Mirzet Halilovic did have a uniform. I don't know where he got it from

19 because I wasn't interested in that at the time.

20 Q. Do you recall whether the military police had any special

21 insignia?

22 A. They didn't have uniforms, let alone insignia of any sort.

23 Q. According to what you saw and experienced while working in the War

24 Presidency and your contacts with Bogilovic, Nurija Jusufovic, Mirzet

25 Halilovic, who in your opinion had influence or control over the police,

Page 15222

1 both the civilian and military police?

2 A. I didn't understand. Do you mean who was --

3 Q. Well, who was superior to them? Who was their chief?

4 A. Becir Bogilovic.

5 Q. Did Becir Bogilovic have a superior?

6 A. Yes, of course. His superior was Hajrudin Avdic, the municipal War

7 Presidency.

8 Q. According to what you saw, do you know what the role of the armed

9 groups of fighters was that you mentioned?

10 A. Oh, dear, armed. Their role was only to hold the lines around the

11 free territory of Srebrenica municipality. That was the role of the

12 defenders who were there.

13 Q. In answer to my question when I said armed, you responded. What

14 were you trying to say?

15 A. I don't know how to explain this word, "Armed." If you have one

16 rifle to ten fighters, that's not -- it was all so meagre, so

17 impoverished. The people lacked clothing, footwear, but they had to be

18 there at the lines to protect their families.

19 Q. Madam, I will ask you something about Mirzet Halilovic. You knew

20 him personally, did you not?

21 A. Yes. I met Mirzet Halilovic when he came to see Mr. Avdic.

22 Q. How would you describe his personality?

23 A. He was a young man and he was very nice. He looked very, very

24 nice, and I heard from others that he was a very nice man. He was even a

25 sportsman before the war. During the war, whether it was because of the

Page 15223

1 influence of the war or something else, he started drinking a lot of

2 alcohol and when he got drunk, everybody said his personality changed

3 completely. He was like someone else. He couldn't control himself let

4 alone anybody else. When he was not drunk, when he wasn't drinking

5 alcohol, then he was a very nice man.

6 Q. Do you know who appointed him a commander?

7 A. It was the municipal War Presidency.

8 Q. Did you ever hear whether Mr. Avdic knew about Halilovic's

9 drinking and did he drink before his appointment?

10 A. He didn't. Had he known he would certainly not have appointed

11 because Mr. Avdic was a clever man. He was a wise person and he would

12 never have appointed a man had he known that he would get drunk and act

13 like that.

14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did he try to influence him?

15 A. Yes. He often summoned him to his office and spoke to him and he

16 would make promises and excuses, but he never kept his word.

17 Q. Very well. Do you recall an incident in the summer of 1992 that

18 had to do with Potocari?

19 A. Yes. Yes, I remember. I remember Mr. Hajrudin summoned

20 Mr. Halilovic because he had heard, received a report, that some men had

21 fired shots at Potocari. As we were very short of ammunition, ammunition

22 was used very carefully, and to waste a few bullets was a disaster. So he

23 sent Mirzet to confiscate the weapons from those young men. However, when

24 Mirzet arrived in Potocari, these men chased him away and they didn't give

25 him anything.

Page 15224

1 Q. Did he beat anyone up or don't you recall that?

2 A. I think he did beat one of the young men up because they had a

3 quarrel when he arrived to confiscate their weapons. I think he beat a

4 young man up, and I remember that there was a quarrel that broke out and

5 even in the municipal War Presidency, there was discussion of that

6 incident.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like a new

8 video clip to be shown.

9 Q. Witness, please look at it carefully.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's rather long so we

11 can do it after the break. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic. We will have a

13 30-minute break now. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I resume my

17 examination-in-chief, I would kindly ask that the translation of D986 be

18 replaced with a new translation, because there is an error. Instead of

19 Hajrudin Avdic, the translation says "Hajrudin Dudic," whereas the

20 original says Hajrudin Avdic. And the word "appointment" is -- next to

21 the word it's written "unclear," although the word transpires quite

22 clearly from the document. It's D986. We merely want to submit the

23 correct translation.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is the case, if that is the case, we have

25 already -- this came up earlier at some point in time, and we -- in our

Page 15225

1 document, the one we have in our personal record, we've already made that

2 correction. So at least that, from that point of view, you can put your

3 mind at rest. Yes. During the testimony of Smajlovic on 8th of December.

4 All right, but, however, I do agree with you that I think in order to be

5 correct, it should be replaced with a proper translation. Since this is a

6 Defence Exhibit, I think you need to provide us with the alternative

7 translation yourself. Okay? Thank you. And we will replace it.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, Ms. Vidovic, before you put the

11 question, I've just been informed by the representative of the Registry,

12 the Court officer, that the Prosecution has indeed returned P561 to the

13 Registry. In other words, it's back to us. All right? Thank you.

14 Thank you, Mr. Wubben. Thank you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Before the break, we talked about the incident in Potocari. I

17 asked that a new video clip be played.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we do that at this time?

19 Q. Witness, please follow the video carefully.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, do you recall this session of the War Presidency?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. This session of the War Presidency, does it concern the incident

25 in Potocari you talked about or not?

Page 15226

1 A. Yes. The incident was discussed at this very session.

2 Q. Do you recall who filmed the session?

3 A. Mr. Mustafa Sacirovic, also known as Mule, did.

4 Q. At one point, at the very start of the footage, do you recall that

5 the speaker says, "We made the decision whereby the military police should

6 prevent any unnecessary shooting because of shortage of ammunition." Do

7 you recall that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Do you recall the War Presidency ever taking such a decision?

10 A. Yes. The War Presidency took several such decisions but they were

11 not fully observed.

12 Q. You could also hear the same speaker say that from 10 to 5.00

13 curfew is on. Nobody should move around, and so on.

14 A. Yes, I've heard.

15 Q. Was a curfew ever introduced in Srebrenica?

16 A. No. There were no conditions in place for that. On several

17 occasions, there were attempts at introducing a curfew to reduce movement

18 at night. However, due to the very high influx of refugees in Srebrenica,

19 it was impossible to implement this. People were constantly on the move,

20 especially at night, in search of food. You have to understand that

21 people lived in the streets, outdoors. They made makeshift shelters in

22 the town parks. How can you ban them from moving around?

23 Q. At what point in time was there discussion about the introduction

24 of a curfew at the sessions of the War Presidency?

25 A. At the end of July, when I started working for the War Presidency,

Page 15227

1 they discussed the introduction of a curfew. However, it proved

2 impossible to implement.

3 Q. Do you agree with me that you closely and repeatedly reviewed this

4 video clip during proofing?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you recall the man who says, "Here are representatives from

7 Potocari. Let them have -- take the floor. They don't find Mirza

8 palatable because he beat up one of their own lot"? Do you recall who

9 that is?

10 A. Yes, that's Hamdija Fejzic, president of the executive committee

11 of the municipal War Presidency.

12 Q. Could we please play the tape back to the beginning and to stop at

13 003? I would like the witness to identify some of the persons appearing

14 on the footage.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you know the man at the bottom right side of the still, wearing

18 a yellow shirt, who seems to be writing something?

19 A. Yes. I do. That's Resid Efendic, who was secretary of the

20 municipal War Presidency at the time, and he kept minutes at meetings.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, because we need to put this for the

22 record, is there a way in which I can identify this clip for the record?

23 It is at 0003. Yes. Well, there are two indications. The video is

24 paused at 0003, and on the screen were a number of individuals, all males

25 are shown including the gentleman with his back to us wearing a yellow

Page 15228

1 shirt. There are the words, "First speaker: And the shooting started

2 full stop. There if there is a cause for celebration, comma, it is

3 logical, comma, we decided," and it stops there. Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. The person just described by His Honour, was recognised by you as

6 Resid Efendic; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who are the people seated next to him, to the right?

9 A. Jusuf Halilovic.

10 Q. And next to Jusuf Halilovic?

11 A. Avdo Hasanovic, manager of the general war hospital in Srebrenica.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can we play the tape?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One -- no, no, wait before you play the tape because

14 we need to identify these one after the other.

15 Jusuf Halilovic, is he the one with the light blue shirt? Is he

16 the one nearest to Resid Efendic, in other words? Immediately next to

17 him?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And is the other one, Avdo Hasanovic,

20 the one next to Jusuf?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. You can see his arm.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. All right. That's fine. Yes,

23 Ms. Vidovic, you may proceed with the rest of the tape and questions.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the clip be played up until

25 0010?

Page 15229

1 [Videotape played]

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, who is the bearded man in the left hand corner of the

4 still?

5 A. That's the president of the municipal War Presidency, Hajrudin

6 Avdic.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. For the record, we are at 00.10, and the

8 person identified by the witness is wearing a horizontal-striped shirt and

9 has a beard.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we play the video further up

11 until 0056?

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Can you identify these men?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the tape be played back a

16 moment back, to see the person on the left-hand side? We can't see his

17 face. That's the person -- the first person to the left. Thank you.

18 Q. Who is the person wearing a white shirt, with what is apparently a

19 mustache?

20 A. That is Zulfo Tursunovic, also known as Cica.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record we are still at 00.54 and the person

22 identified by the witness is the second one from the left. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Q. Who is seated next to Zulfo Tursunovic, to his right, or rather

25 that's his left, to his left side?

Page 15230

1 A. That's Senahid Tabakovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are still at 00.54, and the person identified by

3 the witness is the person wearing what seems to be either blue or green

4 dress, sitting to the left of the person previously identified as Zulfo

5 Tursunovic. On the screen, this new person identified as Tabakovic would

6 be the third one from the left and the second one from the right.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, do you know the person seated on the far right?

9 A. Do you mean this person in this bright-coloured T-shirt? That was

10 the person in the company of Zulfo Tursunovic.

11 Q. No. I'm not referring to the person next to Zulfo Tursunovic but

12 I'm talking about the person seated next to Senahid Tabakovic?

13 A. I misunderstood you. Are you referring to the person with a beard

14 in the yellow T-shirt? That's Akif Krdzic.

15 Q. Very well. Can we see the person seat the next to Krdzic, please?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. For the record while we are still at

17 00.54, the person identified as Krdzic by the person is the first person

18 from the right wearing a beard and also a yellow T-shirt or short-sleeved

19 shirt.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Stop here.

22 Q. Who is the person seated next to the person you identify as Akif

23 Krdzic?

24 A. That's Hamdija Fejzic president of the executive committee of the

25 municipal War Presidency.

Page 15231

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Sorry, just give me a chance. We are

2 now at still 00.56 and the person identified as Hamdija Fejzic by the

3 witness is the first one from the right wearing a dark, what seems to be a

4 black or very dark-blue polo shirt.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we play the tape several

6 seconds ahead to 0103?

7 [Videotape played]

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Can you identify the man seated next to Hamdija Fejzic in a blue

10 shirt?

11 A. Yes. That's Aziz Nekic, also a member of the municipal War

12 Presidency, who worked on humanitarian aid, as soon as it started

13 arriving.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, we are at 01.03 and the person

15 identified as Mr. Nekic is the person with the blue shirt sitting in the

16 middle.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you identify the person in the corner of the still with the

19 mustache and a yellow shirt?

20 A. Yes, that's Hamed Alic. I was unable to recall his name earlier.

21 He was the chief of information. He worked on communication so he worked

22 with ham radio operators in the PTT building.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are still at 01.03 and the person

25 identified is the person with a mustache and a yellow shirt, extreme right

Page 15232

1 of the screen.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. And in connection with this meeting I'll ask you the following:

4 Do you recall whether at this session of the War Presidency, Naser was

5 present?

6 A. No, he wasn't. As I said previously, Naser did not attend every

7 meeting. In fact, he attended meetings only rarely because the situation

8 did not permit him to.

9 Q. Why, did you have any knowledge about the situation in Potocari?

10 A. Yes. Every day we heard shelling in Potocari - Potocari is not

11 far from Srebrenica - because there were constant attacks from Bratunac

12 and this was the front line. Bratunac-Potocari. He had to be there. The

13 people demanded protection.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Here we have heard and seen that the War

15 Presidency was discussing Mirzet Halilovic and the military police.

16 Previously you told us that you knew that Mirzet Halilovic was appointed

17 by the War Presidency. Please, this incident being discussed here, was it

18 the only incident discussed involving Mirzet Halilovic or not, to the best

19 of your knowledge?

20 A. No. It was not the only such incident. As I've already said,

21 Mr. Halilovic, Mirzet Halilovic, would sometimes drink alcohol and then he

22 would cause incidents, he would get into fights with anyone. If anyone

23 spoke to him he would beat them up. He mainly beat up Muslims because

24 they were there, close at hand.

25 Q. At one point, was Mirzet Halilovic replaced?

Page 15233

1 A. Yes. There was discussion of that more than once, and finally he

2 was replaced.

3 Q. Do you know who replaced him?

4 A. The municipal War Presidency, which had appointed him. The same

5 people who appointed him also relieved him of his duty.

6 Q. Did you know the reason for his replacement?

7 A. I didn't, but I assume it was because of the incidents and the

8 complaints.

9 Q. So you have no knowledge of that?

10 A. No. I wasn't interested. It wasn't my job.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Is Mirzet Halilovic still alive or is

13 he dead?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he was killed.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move on, I

19 wish to tender this video into evidence. May it be given a number?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is this a video that was handed to you by the

21 Prosecution or did you procure it yourselves?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a video made

23 by Mr. Sacirovic, our witness, Mustafa Sacirovic, and we procured it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So this -- and there is -- what we have

25 seen is the entire video or is -- are there any other parts that we

Page 15234

1 haven't seen?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is the entire -- or, rather, we

3 have a tape with various clips on it, but if you mean have we edited it in

4 any way, no, we haven't. We have played the entire section. We haven't

5 changed anything in the part we are using.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Sellers?

7 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I'd ask my learned friends and the

8 Trial Chamber two things. The Prosecution would like to have a copy of

9 this video, what's been shown today. And just to clarify, we are under

10 the impression that the Defence is entering a transcript, not only the

11 visual portion but also what we saw as transcript underneath. Is that

12 correct?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fine. I don't think either of the two issues

16 you raised create a problem. I take it you will attend to those,

17 Ms. Vidovic. In other words to provide the Prosecution with a copy of the

18 tape.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And with --

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The clip we used, yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have already

24 prepared it. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you very much. And this will

Page 15235

1 become Defence Exhibit D1003. Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

3 Q. I will now move on and ask you something about the military police

4 and the police in general. Do you recall, after the replacement of Mirzet

5 Halilovic, to the best of your knowledge, did someone else take up his

6 post? Was someone else appointed?

7 A. Yes, I remember. Atif Krdzic was appointed.

8 Q. Do you recall who appointed Atif Krdzic?

9 A. Yes, the municipal War Presidency.

10 Q. We saw Atif Krdzic on this video clip of the War Presidency. Tell

11 Their Honours what his profession was, even before he was appointed

12 instead of Mirzet Halilovic.

13 A. He had been a policeman before the war, in Srebrenica.

14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, to whom was Krdzic subordinate?

15 A. To Becir Bogilovic, the chief.

16 Q. And what is the basis for your conclusion?

17 A. Because the military police existed only on paper and they were

18 part of the civilian police, and whenever something was needed by the

19 police, it was always Becir who came or Nurija Jusufovic and even Krdzic

20 would come.

21 Q. Did Krdzic come to the War Presidency to attend meetings together

22 with Bogilovic?

23 A. Yes, he did.

24 Q. To the best of your knowledge, until when did the military police

25 remain part of the civilian police?

Page 15236

1 A. Until the demilitarisation of Srebrenica in 1993.

2 Q. Do you know who then became chief of police?

3 A. Hakija Meholjic.

4 Q. Do you recall whether you had occasion to work with him, with

5 Hakija Meholjic, right after demilitarisation?

6 A. About a week later. He asked Hamdija if I could type something

7 for him. He needed assistance. So I spent one day in his office typing

8 all day, as a temporary assistant.

9 Q. Do you recall whether he was writing something that had to do with

10 police, the military police, Krdzic?

11 A. He was asking for the military police to be disbanded. In fact,

12 it hardly existed. There were just a few men in it, including Atif

13 Krdzic, and he wanted Atif Krdzic to stop working. I don't know why. But

14 he didn't want him to continue working, and he said he didn't want to work

15 with him and couldn't work in his service any more.

16 Q. I'll move on now.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher now show the witness

18 two documents, P11 and P12.

19 Q. Witness, please first look at this document, P11, dated the 27th

20 of November 1992. In the heading, it says, "Srebrenica armed forces

21 staff." The signature is allegedly that of Osman Osmanovic. And it says

22 at its session of the 22nd of November 1992 the Srebrenica OS staff issued

23 the following decision on reorganising the military police. Do you know

24 anything about this reorganisation? Did you hear of it?

25 A. No, I'm not aware of it.

Page 15237

1 Q. After the arrival of Atif Krdzic, did you observe any difference

2 in the police, any difference in the contacts between the police and

3 Hajrudin Avdic? In other words, did Krdzic continue to work in the same

4 way as Halilovic had done?

5 A. I think the situation was the same, yes. Nothing changed with the

6 arrival of Atif Krdzic and with the replacement of Mirzet Halilovic. I

7 think the situation remained the same.

8 Q. Very well. Please have another look at the date. It says the

9 27th of November 1992. Did you know Osman Osmanovic well?

10 A. Yes, yes. Osman Osmanovic was a great friend of my husband's. He

11 was a family friend. He came to our home.

12 Q. To the best of your knowledge, on the 27th of November 1992, was

13 he in Srebrenica at all?

14 A. As far as I know, he wasn't. He came to see us on the 24th of

15 November on our wedding anniversary. He visited my husband and me. He

16 didn't know it was our anniversary but he had come to say goodbye because

17 he was leaving for Gorazde. He was being sent by Hajrudin Avdic as some

18 sort of commissioner and he was going to Gorazde and he had to leave on

19 the following day, the 25th.

20 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did he go?

21 A. Yes. He did go on the 25th of November 1992.

22 Q. So do you believe he could have signed this decision on the 27th

23 of November 1992?

24 A. I think he couldn't have because he wasn't there.

25 Q. Now, please look at the other document, P12. I will read it to

Page 15238

1 you. It says here, "Military police commander, Atif Krdzic, is hereby

2 authorised" and so on. I will not put any questions to you about the

3 content of the decision because you ever told us you were not aware of any

4 reorganisation. But look at the date, please, the 6th of December 1992.

5 To the best of your knowledge, was Osman Osmanovic in Srebrenica at the

6 time?

7 A. No. He couldn't have been because he left on the 25th of November

8 to go to Gorazde and he returned only in March 1993. Because when he came

9 back, he came to say hello. He said he hadn't been able to get back

10 because of the heavy snow and the severe winter. The Serbs had

11 strengthened their lines and a lot of men who tried to cross between the

12 lines came to harm.

13 Q. Now look at the form of both these decisions, P11 and P12.

14 Previously, you said that the decisions you typed out, and you showed us

15 an example, were written in a certain form. Is it evident from these

16 decisions whether they were delivered to anyone at all?

17 A. No. In my view, no. I would not consider such a decision as

18 complete, as having been completed or sent to anyone because it doesn't

19 say to whom it was sent, who received it, who delivered it, on either of

20 these documents.

21 Q. For this decision to be implemented, to the best of your knowledge

22 of how things functioned, when decisions in general were issued, was this

23 registered somewhere that they were delivered?

24 A. Yes. It would be registered that they were delivered to so and

25 so. If they were natural persons, their names would be entered. If they

Page 15239

1 were legal entities then the name of the organ or organisation would be

2 entered.

3 Q. Does either of these decisions show that they were put in the

4 archives, for example?

5 A. No, because it doesn't say anywhere that they were delivered to

6 the archives or to anyone. It's not there on these decisions. So in my

7 view, these decisions are only drafts or they are incomplete. They are

8 not finished, they are not complete decisions.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. You can put them away.

10 Could the witness be shown document P5 --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apologies, P608.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this might be a

13 convenient moment to stop. Unfortunately we have lost a little time today

14 but --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think I'll need more than

17 half an hour to finish tomorrow.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] About half an hour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ms. Sellers, what about your cross-examination?

21 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we will take all of tomorrow and there

22 is always that it might just go over a bit to the next day also.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Do you think it is necessary that

24 we start earlier than 9.00 tomorrow?

25 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, we leave ourselves in the Chamber's

Page 15240

1 hands.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honours. We agree to

3 start earlier in order to finish with the witness tomorrow, for the

4 witness's sake.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: 8.30 tomorrow morning instead of nine.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And the understanding is that you make, Ms. Sellers,

8 an effort to finish with the witness tomorrow.

9 MS. SELLERS: I understand your understanding, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

11 Madam, we are finishing here for today because our time has

12 expired. We'll continue tomorrow morning starting a little bit earlier

13 than scheduled, 8.30. The idea is to finish with your testimony tomorrow

14 so that you can go back home.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. In the meantime please, between today

17 and tomorrow, you're not to communicate with anyone on the matters that

18 you are testifying upon.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear, yes.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m., to

21 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of January,

22 2006, at 8.30 a.m.