Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 41

1 Wednesday, 4 May 2005

2 [Further Appearance]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 8.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone. May I first of all thank

6 everyone for making yourselves available at such -- I was going to say

7 unearthly -- at such an early hour. May I first of all take the

8 appearance -- sorry, would the registrar call the case, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number

10 IT-03-70-I, the Prosecutor of the Tribunal against Sreten Lukic.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Can I now take the appearances for the

12 Prosecutor.

13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm Tom Hannis on behalf of

14 the Office of the Prosecutor. I'm assisted by Christina Moeller on my

15 immediate right, Caroline Edgerton at the far end, and our case manager

16 Susan Grogan.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much, Mr. Hannis. For the accused,

18 please.

19 MR. SCUDDER: Good morning, Your Honour. I am Theodore Scudder

20 and I'm assisted here this morning by Dragan Ivetic. We represent the

21 defendant Sreten Lukic.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Scudder.

23 Now, Mr. Lukic, could you stand, please. Are you able to hear the

24 proceedings that are taking place here in your own language?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear, Your Honour, yes.

Page 42

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Just please be seated again.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Scudder, the further appearance that is

4 being conducted this morning is for the principal purpose of taking pleas

5 from your client. It is for him to decide whether he requires the

6 indictment to be read in full or whether he, on your advice, accepts that

7 is unnecessary. Can you indicate the position to me, please.

8 MR. SCUDDER: Yes. Mr. Sreten Lukic acknowledges that he is the

9 Sreten Lukic named in the indictment. He's received a copy of the

10 indictment and had the advice of counsel in reviewing the indictment. He

11 waives the formal reading of it, and he enters a plea of not guilty to

12 each of the counts.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Scudder.

14 Now, Mr. Lukic, could you stand again, please. You've heard

15 Mr. Scudder indicate to me that he is authorised to tender a plea on your

16 behalf.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have heard that, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, can you confirm to me that you have had a copy

19 of the indictment and have read it and understood it?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have received a copy

21 of the indictment, and I have read it and studied it and understood it.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And can you confirm to me that the plea tendered on

23 your behalf of not guilty to all charges by Mr. Scudder is the plea which

24 you authorised him to tender?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I plead not

Page 43

1 guilty on all charges of the indictment.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Please be seated again.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in light of the pleas tendered, the Registrar

5 will be instructed to arrange in due course for a trial to take place on

6 this indictment.

7 Now, Mr. Hannis, can you assist me in relation to the

8 implementation of your disclosure obligations. What stage have you

9 reached?

10 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. We did disclose supporting

11 material in this matter to the prior duty counsel, I believe that was

12 Mr. Koppe, who appeared at Mr. Lukic's first appearance. We disclosed

13 those materials on the 20th of April.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I see that Rule 66(A)(ii) governs the disclosure or

15 delivery of copies of the statements of the witnesses that the Prosecutor

16 intends to call to testify at the trial and no doubt arrangements under

17 that Rule are not normally made at this stage of the process, but this is

18 a case which is well advanced in relation to other accused, on the view

19 that the Prosecution seek to conjoin it with the proceedings against

20 Milutinovic and others. Is there scope for an order or an arrangement to

21 be made at this stage in relation to Rule 66(A)(ii)?

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't think there would be any problem

23 with that. We've made disclosure to the other defendants in the related

24 case in which we filed a motion to join this defendant. I see no reason

25 that we couldn't provide those materials in fairly short order.

Page 44

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And when in ordinary course, in ordinary

2 circumstances, where in the preparation period or the pre-trial period

3 would these statements normally be delivered?

4 MR. HANNIS: Normally, Your Honour, that would be done at the time

5 we filed our pre-trial brief, our exhibit list, et cetera.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: From now, roughly how long is that normally? Just

7 in very broad terms.

8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in my limited experience, that range

9 varies widely. It could be in a matter of a few months to many months.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think what I'm inclined to do, Mr. Hannis,

11 unless you try to persuade me otherwise, is in this case to make an order

12 that within 30 days of today's appearance you should comply with Rule

13 66(A)(ii). Would that cause any particular difficulty?

14 MR. HANNIS: May I consult with my case manager?

15 Your Honour, I'd like to try to persuade you to give us 60 days.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

17 Now, Mr. Scudder, is it likely that you will be the counsel in

18 this case or is your tenure in the case necessarily for a limited period?

19 MR. SCUDDER: My understanding is that we are in this case for the

20 long-term.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And have you received the supporting material from

22 your predecessor?

23 MR. SCUDDER: Not yet, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Have arrangements been put in hand to obtain it?

25 MR. SCUDDER: No. We can start work on that immediately after

Page 45

1 this hearing.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm fairly keen in this case to encourage -- I

3 suppose you could describe it as catch-up, to make fairly rapid progress

4 so that if there is to be union between this case and that of Milutinovic

5 that the interests of the accused who have been before the Tribunal for

6 some considerable time are not prejudiced by delays in relation to the

7 present case.

8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: In that regard I'm advised by my case manager we

11 could provide a CD with the supporting materials to Mr. Scudder today.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that assists me greatly. You've actually

13 undermined your own position somewhat, Mr. Hannis, by making that offer,

14 however.

15 What I think I'll do in the circumstances is appoint the

16 Prosecution to make available to the Defence the materials referred to in

17 Rule 66(A)(ii) by the 30th of June. Now, that means, Mr. Scudder, that

18 today you should have the supporting material, and within six to seven

19 weeks you should have the statements and, therefore, be well-armed for

20 your preparation purposes long before the first Status Conference, which

21 will be about the beginning of September.

22 Now, is there anything you, Mr. Scudder, wish to draw to my

23 attention this morning?

24 MR. SCUDDER: Not regarding any of the pre-trial matters, no, Your

25 Honour.

Page 46

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Anything else?

2 MR. SCUDDER: I think the Court should be aware of the special

3 medical situation of the defendant. He underwent some -- two serious

4 cardiac surgeries as recently as maybe four weeks ago, and I understand

5 that his medical care may not be completely resolved. I think the Court

6 should know about that because the surgery was very serious and it

7 occurred in Serbia and delayed his removal to this Court.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: When I raised it -- or when the matter arose

9 before, there was -- it was clear at that stage that adequate arrangements

10 were being made. Are you suggesting otherwise at this stage?

11 MR. SCUDDER: In the brief conversations I've had with the

12 defendant Lukic just in the last two days, he has indicated to me that he

13 is being taken care of well through this point.


15 MR. SCUDDER: But the local physicians need to consult from time

16 to time with the cardiologist and the cardiac surgeon who performed the

17 surgery on him in Serbia only a few weeks ago, and we were just concerned

18 that that would continue. From my experience, he needs to have regular

19 stress tests. One of those was interrupted. I believe he's had one

20 since, but we are concerned that he will continue to have those as needed.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, one consequence of what I've been told this

22 morning, that is that the supporting material was disclosed on the 20th of

23 April, is that you have in the order of must just now be about 15 days to

24 deal with preliminary motions, that deadline running from the date of

25 disclosure. And I draw that to your attention because there is increasing

Page 47

1 anxiety among Judges in the Tribunal that the time scales set within the

2 Rules should be adhered to, and this case is a fairly old case in spite of

3 the fact that your client has been here only a short period of time, but

4 experience in the case is well developed and therefore there is a pool of

5 knowledge into which you can plug to enable you, I think, to ensure that

6 preliminary motions are dealt with, at least made, within that time scale.

7 Now, Mr. Lukic, could you stand again, please. Mr. Scudder has

8 indicated a degree of concern about your medical condition. Is there

9 anything that you wish to say about that to me?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the accused.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Your microphone is -- thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have consulted my

13 Defence counsel with respect to my health situation, and as during the

14 last initial appearance, I said something about that and said that there

15 was the possibility of including a physician specialist. That has taken

16 place. It took place in April. A cardiologist came to see me, the

17 cardiologist that provides medical services to the Tribunal, and in the

18 meantime, on the basis of a prior agreement, I had physicians from

19 Belgrade coming here. The cardiologist and surgeon who operated on me,

20 they came to see me here.

21 Now, since in mid-April or, rather, on the 13th or 14th -- or

22 12th, 13th, and 14th, to be exact, I have to say this, there was

23 uncontrolled bleeding, and that is the difficult point in all this. They

24 changed my therapy on the 15th, and I am now being administered this new

25 therapy. The basic parameter of the blood or the blood levels have still

Page 48

1 not been brought to the necessary normal therapy level.

2 Every Thursday they give me a blood test. I give my blood for

3 analysis and I am expecting the results tomorrow, it being Thursday,

4 because the doctors have told me that I need to be given this therapy for

5 some time for the situation to improve. So I expect that the therapy will

6 have done its work, but I'll leave that up to the physicians to determine.

7 Thank you.

8 Quite simply, it's a process that is ongoing for a certain period

9 of time, especially when you are receiving new therapy. So we expect this

10 new therapy to give off results. A month has gone by since the first

11 tests were conducted, and the doctors feel that they have now got the

12 situation in hand and that there is less likelihood of bleeding in the

13 heart or the head, and of course the results of that kind of bleeding

14 could be tragic. But I have full confidence in my physicians. I think

15 that they are monitoring the situation, that they have my health situation

16 under control, and I hope that my health situation will improve and be

17 brought into acceptable levels if I adhere to the therapy given me. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Clearly your care is in good

20 hands, and you are particularly aware of the condition and are obviously

21 aware of the need to draw to the physicians' attention any matter in

22 relation to your health which is causing concern.

23 The Rules of the Tribunal require that you should appear before me

24 again in not more than 120 days from today. That's roughly at the

25 beginning of September. So the case will come before me then when I will

Page 49

1 review progress in the case. Meanwhile, is there any other matter you

2 wish to draw to my attention?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

5 Mr. Hannis.

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in conjunction with the matter of

7 preliminary motions, as you're aware, we had filed a motion to join this

8 case with the Milutinovic, Ojdanic, Sainovic case. I believe we filed

9 that motion about the time this accused arrived in court. So I'm not sure

10 how you want to handle it in terms of Mr. Scudder being allowed to file

11 some kind of response to that motion even though we filed it, I think, on

12 the 5th of April, but I'm sure we would be happy to have input from him.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: No doubt with -- no doubt, Mr. Hannis, with the CD

14 of supporting material a copy of the joinder motion can be provided.

15 MR. HANNIS: Exactly, Your Honour. That's what I was just

16 discussing with my case manager.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Scudder, you -- and indeed it would be

18 helpful if you could also indicate the responses of the other accused such

19 as they are so far. That could be sent as well.

20 MR. HANNIS: We can do that.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you'll find, Mr. Scudder, that the --

22 certainly the attitude of the accused whose responses I have seen is to

23 accept that joinder as the appropriate course, but it would be helpful, I

24 think, to the Trial Chamber if you were able at an early date to indicate

25 your client's attitude to that motion.

Page 50

1 MR. SCUDDER: Yes, we'd be happy to do that.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Scudder.

3 Well, that appears -- anything else, Mr. Hannis?

4 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry, my case manager has

5 brought to my attention that we do have a Status Conference regarding this

6 defendant scheduled next week, on the 13th.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the one on the 13th is for the accused

8 Lazarevic. Does it follow that it should involve every accused?

9 MR. HANNIS: She's showing me a pleading with Lukic's name on the

10 title page.

11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: My impression, Mr. Hannis, is that with the passage

13 of time the two cases should be brought together. In fact, the three now;

14 Lazarevic, Lukic, and Pavkovic. But for the purposes of next week, I

15 suspect the appropriate course is to have a Status Conference only in

16 relation to Lazarevic. However, in view of the doubt that's been cast

17 just now, a Scheduling Order will be issued making the position clear.

18 MR. HANNIS: Okay. The document does show both Lazarevic and

19 Lukic.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I will consider the position once I rise, and

21 issue a Scheduling Order.

22 MR. HANNIS: That's fine, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, it does appear there is just the

24 possibility you will be required next week because a Status Conference,

25 the next stage in the process in court, has been arranged in the case of

Page 51

1 Lazarevic. But I doubt if that will be the case. However, an order will

2 be made later today clarifying the position.

3 I think that deals with that. That means that everything is dealt

4 with and we can now adjourn.

5 --- Whereupon the Further Appearance adjourned

6 at 8.28 a.m.