Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1455

1 Friday, 11 August 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 MR. STAMP: Good morning, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Pnishi.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I remind you that the solemn declaration which you

10 made at the beginning of your evidence will continue to apply to the

11 evidence that you give today. Do you understand that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Stamp.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I know I had indicated it was the end of

17 the examination yesterday but there is one question if I may just to

18 clarify.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, certainly.

20 Examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

21 Q. Mr. Pnishi, good morning.

22 A. Good morning, sir.

23 Q. Can you just clarify for us what were the colour or colours of the

24 uniforms worn by the four persons who brought Dulje Duzhmani to your house

25 on the morning of the 27th of April?

Page 1456

1 A. Two policemen, they were Serb policemen, they were wearing uniform

2 with stripes, with green stripes. One of them, a star on his arm. The

3 two others were wearing masks and a blue to grey colour uniform.

4 Q. What is the colour, the basic colour of the uniform of the Serb

5 policemen?

6 A. The main colour was light green with patches. Probably camouflage

7 uniforms.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour, for your permission to --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

11 Mr. Visnjic.

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pnishi, good morning. I'm Tomislav Visnjic.

15 I represent General Ojdanic, and together with my colleagues, Norman

16 Sepenuk and Marko Sladojevic, I've prepared some questions for you. You

17 are an experienced policeman and you will understand that will we have to

18 verify your statement. That's why we're going to go into some detail, and

19 we beg your patience while we do that.

20 Mr. Pnishi, you provided a statement to the Office of the

21 Prosecutor on the 4th of April, 2002; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The year is 2000.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. In your statement, you spoke about the events that took place in

Page 1457

1 April, 1999, and while you were talking about that, you provided very

2 precise times of those events. My question is as follows: When you

3 provided your statement, did you use any notes, or did you base your story

4 on your memory, on what you remembered?

5 A. Everything which I have reported so far is based on what I have

6 witnessed with my own eyes. This is the only thing I've said.

7 Q. You did not have a sort of a diary or your private notes of these

8 events; is that correct?

9 A. The things which I have recounted and I have informed the Court

10 about are things which will be indelible. Even if a hundred years pass by

11 I will always remember them.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pnishi. Mr. Pnishi, you are a farmer and before

13 that you worked in the police force; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How long did you spend working in the police?

16 A. From January, 1969, to the 31st of December, 1983.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pnishi, your village, Meja, how large is it? How

18 many inhabitants does it have? Approximately.

19 A. It has about 45 houses.

20 Q. Were there any Serbs in your village, Mr. Pnishi?

21 A. There were two Montenegrins in our village, only two. Two

22 households.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness Exhibit D --

25 3D26? Could we have that on e-court?

Page 1458

1 Q. And while this is being done, Mr. Pnishi, I would kindly ask you

2 to look at a new kind of map which provides more detail than the one

3 Mr. Stamp showed you yesterday. I would kindly ask you to help me with

4 understanding some of the things on the map.

5 Mr. Pnishi, this is a map of the general area of your village.

6 How far is your village approximately from the centre of Djakovica?

7 A. Our village is some three kilometres away from the centre of

8 Gjakova. Less than three kilometres, I would say.

9 Q. That's right. Your village is here depicted as Meja Orize

10 village, am I right?

11 A. You are right, because they are kind of adjoining one another.

12 But Orize has only four or five villages. It's more of a -- sorry,

13 houses. It's more of a hamlet. But they kind of overlap, I would say.

14 Q. Can the witness please be shown the following page of this

15 exhibit. Again this is 3D26, page 2 thereof.

16 Mr. Pnishi, this is the same map, somewhat enlarged. I would like

17 to draw your attention to the two blue, I believe that they are blue, two

18 blue lines that cross the map. Under one of them is says Trava and under

19 the other one it says Erenik. Are these the two rivers that flow through

20 your village or either near it?

21 A. My house is between Trava and Ereniki.

22 Q. Thank you. Can the witness please be shown page 3 of the same

23 exhibit, which is 3D26.

24 Again, this is an enlarged map, the same that we saw before.

25 Are there any technical possibilities for the witness to make some

Page 1459

1 markings on this map or not? I believe there are.

2 Mr. Pnishi, I would kindly ask you, with the assistance of the

3 usher, to put a circle around the area that would approximately depict the

4 place where your house is, the school as well. Can you make a circle

5 around the general area of the area where you lived, where the school was?

6 A. Yes, I can. The school was approximately at the beginning of

7 Meja, here, and the beginning of Orize. Somewhere here. Can I mark it

8 here on the map?

9 Q. Yes. Make a circle, if possible, to encompass all those things,

10 the school, your house, the houses of the Serbs who resided in the

11 village, and other villagers as well. Many?

12 A. The school may be situated here, the school. My house is 200

13 metres away from the school in this direction. The direction of Meja and

14 Orize is here. My house is approximately here.

15 Q. Mr. Pnishi, let me makes things easier for you. You don't have to

16 be precise. You don't have to pinpoint your house. Try to encircle the

17 general area of your village, because later on I'm going to show you even

18 a more detailed sketch depicting your house. That's why I'm asking you

19 now to provide us with a general idea of where your village was.

20 A. Meja is here.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. VISNJICA: [Interpretation] Can this map be admitted as a

23 separate exhibit? I don't know the number.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sabbah, would you give it a number, please.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That would be IC 00 -- IC3,

Page 1460

1 Your Honours.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Visnjic.

3 MR. STAMP: I think -- perhaps we could just check. I think the

4 exhibit yesterday was IC3 as well. So perhaps we could clarify the

5 exhibit number.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sabbah. So I'm told it should be IC4.

7 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Pnishi, you said that in your village there were two

10 Montenegrin families. What were their family names?

11 A. Their family names are Prentic, the name Dragan. Further away,

12 one kilometre away, was Stajnovic Bozo, Stajnovic. One was dead and he

13 had two sons and his wife.

14 Q. Mr. Pnishi, what is the distance between your house and the

15 Prentic house?

16 A. The distance between our two houses is 50 metres.

17 Q. Mr. Pnishi, in your statement you mention the house of Pask Markaj

18 your best man. What is the distance between that house and your house,

19 the house of Pask Markaj and your house?

20 A. It's the same distance like that of Dragan. There is a bridge,

21 Trava bridge, that separates us.

22 Q. Again 50 metres or somewhat more?

23 A. Not more than 100 metres.

24 Q. Very well then. Let's go back to Exhibit 3D27.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a short

Page 1461

1 explanation. Since we were not able to carry out an investigation on the

2 spot, we tried to sketch the area that the witness is describing, and we

3 believe that with his assistance we will be able to provide the Trial

4 Chamber with the image of the area where certain events took place.

5 Q. Mr. Pnishi, I would like to ask you about this sketch looks a bit

6 unclear at the first glance. However, if you look at the drawing you will

7 see that there are two rivers there, the Trava river somewhat in the

8 middle of the drawing, and the Erenik river which is in the lower part of

9 the drawing.

10 A. Yes. Yes, I can see that.

11 Q. There is also the Trava bridge. Can you see it? Another thing

12 that is depicted is the house of Pas Markaj. Can you see that? It is in

13 the upper part of the drawing above the Trava bridge.

14 A. Yes. Now I can see that.

15 Q. Furthermore, below the Trava bridge there is an explanation which

16 says that the road with -- which encompasses the bridge is the old road to

17 Jahoc and Djakovica, a dirt road. Can you see that?

18 A. Yes, I can see that.

19 Q. Below that explanation there are three squares which should

20 represent your house and the neighbour's house, but we'll come back to

21 that. Can you see these three small squares?

22 A. Yes, I see them.

23 Q. Across from that is a square which depicts D. Prentic's house.

24 This is the Serb that you just mentioned.

25 A. Yes, I see that.

Page 1462

1 Q. Above that square there is another square marked as the Sokoli

2 house. That is another family from your village; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. To the left from the Sokoli house or the square depicting that

5 house there is another square marked as the store, Sokoli store.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And further, more left of that is a somewhat bigger square under

8 which you can read "the school." Can you see that?

9 A. Yes, I see it very well.

10 Q. The long line -- actually, the two long lines at the bottom of the

11 drawing mark the new road towards Djakovica or towards Ponosevac. Can you

12 see that as well?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On that road there is the Erenik bridge. Can you see that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And next to that bridge there is a point depicting Pask Sokoli's

17 house.

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Mr. Pnishi, would you say that this map, despite all the

20 imprecisions with regard to the distances, more or less reflects the

21 situation that actually exists on the ground in your village, the layout

22 of the village, the roads, the bridges?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Mr. Pnishi, would I like to go back to the three squares that

25 represent your house and the neighbouring houses. Could you please mark

Page 1463

1 on this map by putting number 1 next to your house.

2 A. It is 50 metres away from Dragan Prentic's home.

3 Q. Which of the three squares would be the closest to the place where

4 you house is?

5 A. This one here. I put a cross here.

6 Q. Can you put number 1 next to that square?

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Mr. Pnishi, is your house not across the road on the other side of

9 this dirt road leading towards Djakovica? I assume that -- I don't know

10 the situation too well, that's why I'm asking you. Where it says the

11 macadam road towards Jakovci and Djakovica, there are three squares across

12 that road, across the road from the Prentic house.

13 A. No, no. It is only 50 metres far from Prentic's home.

14 Q. But is the road between your house and the Prentic house?

15 A. There is only the road that divides us, the road that goes to

16 Jahoc.

17 Q. And later on that road goes towards the bridge on Trava; is that

18 right? If we go back to the drawing -- please bear with me. I imagine

19 that my drawing is not that good. Just a moment, please. We have a

20 problem with the transcript.

21 I asked you whether later on this road goes towards the bridge on

22 the Trava. Your answer has not been recorded, so could you please repeat

23 it?

24 A. There's -- that road passes between my house and that of Prentic,

25 and then to the bridge. It's -- the bridge is only 20 metres away from

Page 1464

1 our houses, that is my house and that of Prentic.

2 Q. Yes, thank you. Mr. Pnishi, I'm sorry, perhaps the proportions

3 are not right on this map. However, if you look at this drawing you will

4 see that between the Prentic house and these three squares that are at the

5 very bottom of the sketch there is a road. Now, I'm asking you, out of

6 the three squares that are next to the wording "put prema Jahocu i

7 Djakovici," which of the squares would correspond to the place where your

8 house is? What do you think? So that the road would be between your

9 house and the Prentic house.

10 A. Yes. I don't know why you have drawn this here. You didn't need

11 to do that. The house of Dragan Prentic, my house, and then comes the

12 road that goes towards Trava. So I don't understand the existence of this

13 here. I don't know why you have drawn it.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, would it assist you if you were able

15 to go over to the witness's position and point out to him on the screen

16 what it is you're trying to clarify with him? I mean, this is an unusual

17 course and is not appropriate in many instances with witnesses. But

18 bearing in mind who this witness is and who you are, it seems to me

19 perfectly appropriate for you to do that if it would assist you.

20 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I think that would be the

21 best thing.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: We've got to make sure --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please speak into the

24 microphone, thank you.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for Judge

Page 1465

1 Bonomy, please. Microphone for the Judge.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Pnishi, if this is the Prentic house and if this is the road

4 that goes towards Jahoc, which of these three squares would be an

5 approximation of the locality of your house? So this is the Prentic

6 house. This is the road.

7 A. This is -- this is the house of Prentic, and this small one is

8 three small houses they have, and this road here leads to Jahoc. Trava is

9 here. But -- but it's -- it's very far from the Trava bridge that the

10 house of Prentic has been drawn, because the houses of the Prentic should

11 have drawn the houses closer to the bridge and mine right here. And that

12 of Pask Markaj comes here. They hasn't been drawn exactly as they are on

13 the ground.

14 MR. VISNJIC: I should go to see transcript, so ...

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.

16 MR. STAMP: There is a large map, I think, in Mr. Visnjic's hand

17 which I think can be put on the ELMO so when the witness is pointing and

18 explaining we can see what he's doing. And once he's identified

19 somewhere, you can just ask him to mark it clearly and we can follow it

20 that way.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Except, was the matter clarified in that exchange,

22 Mr. Visnjic? Was the question of whether the house is across the road

23 clarified in that exchange?

24 MR. VISNJIC: May I take minute, Your Honour?


Page 1466

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I managed to

3 understand what the witness described just now, my problem lies in the

4 following: This map does not reflect actual distances. It does not

5 depict space properly. So it seems that the three houses should be much

6 closer to the Prentic house. That's the problem I've created with this

7 map now. But I would kindly ask that it remain here, because if we

8 proceed as suggested by Mr. Stamp, we will get to a very wide belt and

9 then we will not be able to have a precise drawing of what I want to ask

10 the witness about at a later stage, because after all, except for the

11 place where his house is, it's pretty clear where the bridge is, where the

12 school is, where Pask Markaj's house is. These are the positions that I

13 need for my further questioning.

14 I can accept that this is not -- his house was not marked

15 properly.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, his -- one of the points made by Mr. Pnishi

17 is that the Prentic house has been drawn too far from the bridge which is

18 causing the difficulty. So it should be nearer the bridge. Now, were you

19 able to establish in relation to that movement whether one of the three

20 squares accurately represents the witness's house?

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I approach the

22 witness again just for a moment, please, just to suggest something?

23 MR. STAMP: Mr. Visnjic, can you just speak loudly into the

24 microphone as well, please.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1467

1 Q. Forget about the Prentic house now where it was drawn here. If

2 this first square is your house, where would the Prentic house have to be

3 in relation to your house? So this here is your house. In your opinion,

4 where should the Prentic house be marked?

5 A. The houses of Prentic should be one here, one here, one here,

6 whereas mine should be right here. The bridge is here, and then the rest

7 is here.

8 Q. Now, let us assume that this is your house and we mark it with a

9 number. We mark it number 2. Can you write number 2 there, please.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Can you now draw some squares or circles here, whatever is better

12 for you, where the Prentic house is?

13 A. That's it.

14 Q. These three dots that are drawn here above the road are the

15 Prentic houses. Thank you.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think --

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can no longer hear Mr. Visnjic.

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, please. On this

19 exhibit, the square above which the word Kuca D. Prentic is, is not where

20 the house of D Prentic is. As a matter of fact, the houses of the Prentic

21 family are to the right of that and are marked with three red dots. Thank

22 you, Mr. Pnishi, for your patience.

23 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I would kindly suggest that you give a figure to

24 this rather than the dots because there's already confusion caused on

25 account of error in the map and this would give -- this would simplify

Page 1468

1 thing. If we have already 1, 2 it can be given number 3 or whatever

2 number you may kindly please. And I would request the usher, if my

3 Lord Bonomy agrees. Dots will always be a trouble.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Pnishi, can you mark the Prentic houses with numbers 3, 4, and

6 5.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's -- okay.

8 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

9 JUDGE CHOWHAN: 5 is not legible.

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Pnishi.

12 Mr. Visnjic. Sorry, do you wish this -- do you wish this to be

13 given a number at this stage?

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I think that

15 we will go on working on this document that is, so I'm not sure how far we

16 will go.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's give it IC5, then. Is that it? Sorry, I've

18 jumped the gun. Apparently we have to wait until you've finished with the

19 map. Okay.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Pnishi, can you please tell me the following: In your yard or

22 next to your house is the house of your brother Djelaj; am I right?

23 A. Djelosh, yes. Yes. Only a wall divides our houses.

24 Q. How far away is his house from your house?

25 A. There is only a wall dividing our houses.

Page 1469

1 Q. Thank you. I did not hear the interpretation though. Mr. Pnishi,

2 when you were saying that you moved out of your house and when you went to

3 the village of Jahoc, you actually went to the house of Pask Markaj that

4 is on this sketch. Am I right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in actual fact it is your claim that you went about 100 metres

7 away from your own house. Am I right in saying that?

8 A. Maybe. Trava is in between. The Trava is in between there.

9 Q. Mr. Pnishi, you have already testified before this Tribunal; is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you testified in the Milosevic trial on the 28th -- or,

13 rather, on the 30th of August, 2002.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During that testimony, Mr. Milosevic cross-examined you about the

16 attack on the Prentic house in May, 1998; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all of that is on

19 transcript pages 9228 to 9230, Milosevic transcript.

20 Q. During that examination, response was that the attack consisted of

21 the following: Twelve bullets were fired from an automatic rifle at the

22 Prentic house. Am I right in saying that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During that examination, you asserted that the house was attacked

25 by the Serb police sometime around 10.30 in the evening. Am I right?

Page 1470

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. During that examination, in response to the allegations made by

3 Mr. Milosevic that it was actually the KLA that attacked the house, you

4 said that the Serb house was attacked by two policemen, that they were

5 firing at the roof of the house, not at the windows, and that you saw all

6 of that from the balcony. Am I right?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. During that examination, you said that that house was attacked

9 only once, on the 6th of May, 1998. Am I right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And, Mr. Pnishi, you ruled out the possibility that it was

12 somebody from the KLA that had fired at that house. Am I right?

13 A. That's correct. It's a thousand per cent correct.

14 Q. Mr. Pnishi, it is my understanding of this sketch that Prentic is

15 your next door neighbour, if I can put it that way.

16 A. They are the first neighbour. The nearest neighbour in terms of

17 distance away from my place was Prentic.

18 Q. Thank you. You stated that from your own house you had an

19 overview of what was going on in their houses or, rather, in their yard.

20 Am I right?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Am I right, Mr. Pnishi, if I say that from the 6th of May, 1998,

23 from that day onwards Dragan Prentic moved his family out to the centre of

24 Djakovica, and apart from the fact that they would come during the day,

25 they never spent the night any more in their house in the village of Meja?

Page 1471

1 A. This is not correct. Dragan Prentic, up until the last day that

2 he left the house, he lived in his house. He had a house in Gjakova. He

3 went there. He returned to the village and fed the animals daytime,

4 night-time, lunchtime. And nobody else knew better than I did about this.

5 His whereabouts.

6 Q. Mr. Pnishi, that's why I'm asking you. My question to you is

7 whether it is correct that he would not spend the night in his house from

8 the 6th of May, 1998, onwards. I'm not denying the fact that he came

9 every day, that he would feed the cattle and so on.

10 A. Dragan and his family were there. The police came to the school

11 in a big lorry, and they stayed there for two hours and a half. They came

12 out onto the road. They fired shots from automatic weapons in the corner

13 of the wall. They got in their cars and their vehicles and they left for

14 Korenica. I've seen them with my own eyes.

15 In -- in the morning, I spoke to Dragan, and he said, "People shot

16 at my house last night," and I asked him who did. "I don't know who shot

17 at us. They wanted to kill us." And I told him, "If they wanted to kill

18 you properly they would have killed you, but they shot at that corner of

19 the wall." And as neighbours, we went to the place where the shots were

20 fired, and then there were teams from Gjakova, from the army, from the

21 police. Everybody came. They -- they were checking, examining from where

22 the shots were fired. They went to see where the cartridges were there.

23 We found the cartridges. And they told him -- and they told the

24 villagers, "Who are you suspecting that fired the shots?" And he said,

25 they told Dragan, 'If we wanted to kill you, we could kill you every day.

Page 1472

1 But we don't want to do that.'" And that's what the whole village said.

2 And then they saw the situation, and after that they left for Gjakova.

3 Q. Mr. Pnishi, I agree with everything that you have said, but you

4 did not answer my question, and what I had asked you was whether on that

5 day Dragutin Prentic slept in his own house in the village of Meja. Only

6 that. Yes or no? From the 6th of May, 1998, onwards, that is.

7 A. He has slept there. 90 per cent of the times of the nights he has

8 slept in his house in the village. Otherwise, when he was on duty or his

9 duty required it, he stayed in Gjakova. But he has stayed in his own

10 home.

11 Q. And his family, is that what you are asserting?

12 A. Yes, yes, all of them.

13 Q. And, actually, you could follow all of that because you had a view

14 from your yard into his yard, and you can see the situation in his house.

15 Is that what you are asserting to me now?

16 A. He could see into my courtyard, and I could see into his

17 courtyard.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pnishi. Mr. Pnishi, let us move on to the next

19 topic. In your testimony or, rather, in your statement on page 2 in

20 Serbian, page 2 in the English, and page 4 in the Albanian, that is -- I'm

21 sorry, I don't know the number.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we move on to the statement, for the

23 avoidance of any doubt, none of the event in May, 1998 is referred to in

24 the statement; is that correct?

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is not mentioned in

Page 1473

1 the statement, but it is mentioned in the Milosevic transcript, 30th of

2 August, 2002. And this is P2238.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. So -- yes. Yes. Thank you.

4 The other matter is, are you now finished with the map, and should

5 it now be exhibited, given a number?

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. We can give it a number,

7 yes.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number IC5, Your Honours.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but may I ask for it to

10 remain on e-court, because probably we will be going back to it later.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Now, I'm, I think, not fully informed of the

12 basis of the Prosecution presentation. It's probably my fault rather than

13 anyone else's, but is the Milosevic transcript part of the Prosecution's

14 presentation of material in relation to this witness?

15 MR. STAMP: No, it is not. I think we'd gone over that yesterday

16 and --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So how does it -- how does it become P2228?

18 MR. STAMP: It was originally in the notification that it would be

19 a 92 bis (D). I think there was some confusion it was supposed to be 92

20 bis B and then the B became a D so it was included. But it is not and I

21 think I indicated that yesterday.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you did indicate that, and I hope that you've

23 not been misled by this situation, Mr. Visnjic. And we haven't spent an

24 hour cross-examining on something that is not part of the case. I assumed

25 you had another purpose.

Page 1474

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, even if it were not

2 part of the case, I would like to exhibit it because I will be going back

3 to that time and again. Probably we are going to exhibit it ultimately.

4 The only question now is whether it should be assigned a number by the

5 Prosecution or the Defence, but frankly speaking, I don't think the number

6 matters or that that matters in this particular case.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: It has a number which is P2238, but it has -- and

8 it becomes part of the process because you've referred it, and you've made

9 it clear that it is part of the process. It doesn't need any further

10 introduction. All I was trying to do, and you understand -- I hope you'll

11 understand this in a case that is so lengthy, Mr. Visnjic, that it's

12 helpful sometimes for the Bench to be advised of the purpose of

13 examination when it doesn't bear any relationship to the presentation of

14 the Prosecution case, and obviously you never are obliged to tell us the

15 purpose of your particular line of cross-examination, but I was just

16 trying to be clear in my mind that you were cross-examining on something

17 which had not been part of the Prosecution case, and I'm now satisfied

18 that that is the situation and we can move on.

19 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I just make one little comment, with permission.

20 Now, had the witness denied those facts which the learned counsel has put

21 to him, then the necessity of confrontation with that document would have

22 arisen, but here he has not denied he's only brought in those facts as

23 suggested. So I mean, whether it's exhibited or not is inconsequential.

24 That's what I think. I don't know.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me make things

Page 1475

1 easier for you. My last set of questions will be connected to what the

2 witness has told us, and I am asking you to bear with me. My last set of

3 questions will be about that, and you will be able to tell for yourself

4 what the witness meant.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Pnishi, I apologise for this short break. I would kindly ask

8 you now to look at the statement if you have it before you, page 2,

9 paragraph 4 in the Serbian. Page 2, paragraph 4 in the English. And page

10 4 in the Albanian. The statement will be brought to you shortly.

11 I'm going to ask you in the meantime as follows: In this part of

12 your statement you describe the operation conducted by the Serbian army in

13 July 1998, and in one sentence you say: "One day, I believe that it was

14 on the 31st of July, 1998, I counted 175 VJ tanks heading towards the

15 border with Albania and towards the villages in the area."

16 A. That's true. On the same day that you mentioned, and I saw and I

17 filmed everything I saw from the second floor of my house. I saw and I

18 counted 175 vehicles of the Serbian army, various kinds of cars from small

19 cars to tanks and -- they went from my house in the direction of Ponoshec,

20 Nec, Smolice, and Junik.

21 Q. So those were not 175 tanks as it says in the statement. It was a

22 column of 175 vehicles of different types. Am I right in thinking that?

23 A. Tanks were in large numbers, but there were also smaller vehicles,

24 but always army vehicles, trucks, lorries. All types of vehicles. As I

25 said, 175, but maybe two-thirds were tanks.

Page 1476

1 Q. Thank you. You have clarified this for me now. I would also like

2 to ask you whether there was any special reasons for which you decided to

3 take the photo of this military column.

4 A. Because I was thinking that if such a large number of military

5 vehicles were to be used in that small area like our village was,

6 something must be wrong, I thought. So I filmed everything, as I said.

7 And when I left the house, I had hidden the film, but the army had

8 searched my house and they found the film and took it with them.

9 Q. When was your house searched?

10 A. After the 27th of April.

11 Q. After the 27th of April, you did not go back to your house, is

12 that correct?

13 A. No. On the 27th of April, we left the house and we didn't dare

14 approach our house for 19 days. It was only after 19 days that I went

15 back.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pnishi. We'll come back to that many later.

17 Mr. Pnishi, are you positive that there were over a hundred tanks

18 in that convoy or is that just your estimate, nothing more?

19 A. Yes. I'm sure that there were over 100 tanks in that convoy.

20 Q. Did that convoy stay for any time in your village or did it just

21 pass through?

22 A. It passed through the village, through the asphalt road, and went

23 to Dur [phoen] village and that's where it was stationed, one kilometre

24 away from Korenica. But other crossroads. Police blocks were --

25 checkpoints were all over.

Page 1477

1 Q. Entire convoy; is that correct? You took photos of the entire

2 convoy; is that correct?

3 A. The entire convoy, yes. I had it on video cassette.

4 Q. How did you know that the convoy was coming your way? I would

5 assume that being a farmer you did not carry a camera with you at all

6 times. You didn't have it handy in your courtyard at any moment. How did

7 you know that the convoy was coming and that you would want to take photos

8 of it?

9 A. I didn't take photos of it in the courtyard or the street because

10 I didn't dare do it. I went up to the second or the third floor of my

11 house, and it was from there that I managed to film everything that was

12 going on.

13 Q. And you filmed the entire convoy?

14 A. Yes, yes, the entire convoy from the beginning to the end.

15 Q. How did you know that a convoy was coming your way?

16 A. From my house you can have a view 100 kilometre away. I

17 apologise, 1 kilometre away.

18 Q. Very well, Mr. Pnishi. You are saying that you saw a convoy

19 coming your way from a distance of 1 kilometre, that you had a video

20 camera handy, that you went up to the first or the second storey of your

21 house and that you filmed the entire thing. Is all that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's right. I filmed all of it from the second floor.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pnishi, let me now go back to page 2 of your

24 statement, paragraph 5 in the Serbian, page 2, paragraph 5 in the English,

25 and page 3, paragraph 1 in the Albanian version of your statement. You

Page 1478

1 state that on the 23rd of April, your family and yourself abandoned your

2 house and went to the nearby village of Jahoc. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Does it actually mean that you went only a hundred metres away to

5 stay in Pask Markaj's house? Is that correct?

6 A. On the 23rd it was. That day we went further away, but then we

7 came back some 100 metres away from my house and went to Pask Markaj's

8 house, because earlier on everybody left the village, but then afterwards

9 I returned and stayed closer to my house.

10 Q. And you stayed in that house all that time until the end of the

11 war. Am I right in saying that?

12 A. Yes, for over two months.

13 Q. Mr. Pnishi, your former wife, Lushe, was sick at the time. Am I

14 right in saying that?

15 A. Yes, she was sick.

16 Q. And she could not move; is that correct?

17 A. She couldn't.

18 Q. She died after the war; is that correct?

19 A. She died after the war.

20 Q. Mr. Pnishi, is it true that because of the restrictions in the

21 movement and other things your neighbours from the Prentic family brought

22 medicines and other necessities for your wife and other members of your

23 family staying in the Markaj house? Am I right in thinking that?

24 A. Yes, you're right. They brought us medicine.

25 Q. Mr. Pnishi, let me go back to your statement again, again page 2,

Page 1479

1 paragraph 5, both in English and Serbian, and paragraph 1 on page 3 in the

2 Albanian. You say that on the 27th of April, 1999, at 6.00 in the morning

3 you returned together with your wife to your house to feed the cattle. Am

4 I right when I say that?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Tell me, how did your wife get to your house? Did somebody

7 transport her or did you do it in some other way? She was seriously ill

8 at the time, if I'm not mistaken. Can you remember?

9 A. I was taking her by the hand. I was actually carrying her. I

10 didn't want to leave her alone, and very slowly we moved together, and

11 then we went where we went.

12 Q. And then you arrived at your house to feed the animals. According

13 to the statement, you had cows, pigs, and chickens; is that correct?

14 A. You're right. That's it.

15 Q. In your statement, you also speak about the incident that led to

16 the death of Kole Duzhmani, an inhabitant of Korenica; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And after that, in your statement you say that you were in your

19 house -- just bear with me for a moment, please. Page 3, the last

20 paragraph in the Serbian, the last paragraph in the English version. You

21 say that on that same day from are house around 9.30 you saw people from

22 Guska and Korenica coming along the road and that they made up a long

23 convoy, and you also describe a certain checkpoint. That checkpoint was

24 at the Meja-Orize-Djakovica crossroad and it had been put up by the

25 police. Am I right in saying all this?

Page 1480

1 A. Yes. That was --

2 Q. Page 4, paragraph 1 in the English, and part of it is on page 3.

3 Mr. Pnishi, let me ask you this: From Pask Markaj's house, could

4 you see from that house the Meja Orize crossroad? Could you see the main

5 road to Djakovica, Junik, from that house?

6 A. At that time, I was staying at my own home until 11.30. And as I

7 told you, my house is closer to the road than that of Pask Markaj. But

8 even after that time when I moved to Pask Markaj's home, I could see the

9 crossroads and the road Gjakova-Meja that goes to Junik. I could see that

10 because I was staying on the third floor of that house, and I said

11 earlier, the distance between our homes is very small, so it doesn't make

12 any difference in viewing the surrounding terrain.

13 Q. Mr. Pnishi, you are saying that from Pask Markaj's house you could

14 see the exact same things that you could see from your house, the main

15 road, the crossroads, and the rest of the things; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. On page -- on the same page, you say that

18 when you saw around 10.30 that members of all the forces gathered around

19 the school - and I suppose you could see the school from Pask Markaj's

20 house as well - that you decided to go back to Jahoc. In other words, to

21 flee to Jahoc a hundred metres away to your best man's house. That was at

22 10.30 on the same day.

23 A. On the same day from 7.00 that the offensive started I was at my

24 own home, until 11.30. When the forces gathered, the police and the army

25 gathered in front of school and they started stopping the people, and they

Page 1481

1 shot the people, from the -- at that time then I left and went to Jahoc.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a small linguistic thing here. The statement

3 talks about "godfather," and the translation we're getting is "best man,"

4 but obviously you're referring to the same person and all that matters is

5 that that's clear.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. And I can see another

7 spot of difference.

8 Q. In your statement you say that this was at 10.30, and now you're

9 saying in the transcript that it was at 11.30. Can you please clarify

10 this? I assume that there may have been a mistake. So when did you go

11 back to Jahoc, at 10.30 or at 11.30?

12 A. At 11.00. Around 11.00 when I crossed the bridge and went to

13 Jahoc.

14 Q. Mr. Pnishi, let's go back to the case of Kole Duzhmani. Is it

15 true that Kole Duzhmani was the owner of the petrol station in Korenica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it true that he was one of the richest people in the area?

18 A. No. There were other people who were richer than him. He wasn't

19 one of the richest.

20 Q. But he did have money. He was well off. Can we agree on that?

21 A. Yes. Yes, he was well off I would say.

22 Q. What happened to his body once it was discovered 19 days later?

23 Was he buried?

24 A. We took the corpse and buried in the cemetery of Jahoc. We were

25 six or seven people that went there, because in the household I was

Page 1482

1 staying we were about 40, 50 people. We went, buried him, and went back

2 home.

3 Q. And his body is in the cemetery in Jahoc?

4 A. No. They -- after the war, they transferred the body to Korenica.

5 Q. Mr. Pnishi, you said that on the 27th you had fled or went

6 abruptly to Jahoc and that after that you did not dare leave the Markaj

7 house for 19 days. Am I right?

8 A. Yes. I didn't dare go in the direction of my house for 19 days.

9 On the 19th day, I made up my mind to go and see if there was anything

10 left unburned in my brother's house, and then I found Pal Markaj [as

11 interpreted] dead, as I said. Nothing was left unburned.

12 Q. Mr. Pnishi, are you saying that you left your cows, pigs, and

13 chickens for 19 days and that did you not go back to feed them? Am I

14 right?

15 A. I had left the door open and they could graze in the fields. The

16 pigs were taken -- were killed by the army, and they took them with them

17 and ate them. The chicken were taken by the Gypsies who also ate them.

18 So we were left without anything.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Pnishi, tell me if I'm right or wrong. I'm putting to

20 you that --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just interrupt a moment? There's a reference

22 there to returning to the house and finding Markaj dead; is that right?

23 MR. VISNJIC: No, Duzhmani.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Markaj is the name recorded. That should be

25 Duzhmani, should it?

Page 1483

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Kole Duzhmani.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Carry on, please, Mr. Visnjic.

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Pnishi, tell me if I'm right when I put it to you that you and

5 your family, much before the 27th of April, left your house and went to

6 stay at the Markajs' house. I'm putting to you that much before the 23rd

7 of April you left your house and you -- and went to the Markaj house to

8 stay there. I'm also putting it to you that on the 27th of April you were

9 not in your house in the morning hours. I'm also putting it to you that

10 Kole Duzhmani was killed at least 20 days earlier than that.

11 MR. STAMP: It is my submission that perhaps it would be more

12 appropriate for this witness if each suggestion was put singly and

13 separately instead of bundled into one speech.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: That's undoubtedly correct, Mr. Visnjic. You

15 should put these points separately and start with the proposition that

16 they left the house and went to Markaj's house long before the 23rd of

17 April.

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, I wanted to be as

19 concise as possible, but key can take it this way as well.

20 Q. Is it true that you and your family left your house much before

21 the 27th of April -- sorry, the 23rd of April, much before the 23rd of

22 April, 1999, and that you went to the Markaj house? Just say yes or no,

23 please.

24 A. No, that's not true. How can I say yes when it's not true? That

25 was the day where -- where I describe the death of Prashevic and then when

Page 1484

1 we left, everything that I have said in my statement. No. No.

2 Q. Mr. Pnishi, I'm putting to you that Duzhmani was killed at least

3 20 days before the event that you are describing for us, that you found

4 his body before the 27th. Is that correct?

5 A. That is not true at all.

6 Q. Mr. Pnishi --

7 A. The 27th, Kole Duzhmani was intercepted at the bridge and then

8 brought in front of my house. He came inside, and then the -- the police

9 wanted -- started to beat me up, and he told me, "Be brave," and I

10 couldn't say anything.

11 Q. Let's make things as short as possible. I'm putting it to you,

12 Mr. Pnishi, that your complete family, together with the animals, moved to

13 Pren Markaj's house -- I apologise, Pask Markaj's house, and that you

14 feared for the safety, and that's why you left the house very rarely

15 during that whole period. Am I right in saying that?

16 MR. STAMP: In saying what?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, there are two separate issues there. I think

18 the question whether they left before the 23rd has been answered. Your

19 second point is that they left the house rarely because they feared for

20 their safety; is that right? So perhaps you --

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Should put that as a separate proposition.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Pnishi, is it correct that having left your house, and I put

25 it to you that it was much earlier than you say it was, that you -- that

Page 1485

1 you left Pask Markaj's house only rarely because you feared for your

2 safety.

3 A. I have left my home on the 23rd. When they fired at the houses,

4 we went out. On the 27th, at 6.00 in the morning, I went back to feed the

5 cattle. That day -- after that day, as I said, for 19 days I never went

6 back to my house.

7 Q. Mr. Pnishi, who was with you when you discovered the body of Kole

8 Duzhmani?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: We're moving on to something that's slightly

10 different, I think, although I can see the link to the questions you've

11 been asking, but we're already beyond the period for a break. So I think

12 unless you have an objection, Mr. Visnjic, this would be an appropriate

13 place to take the break.

14 MR. VISNJIC: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So we'll resume at five past eleven.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we've noticed that the

20 witness does not have his statement in Albanian in front of him, so we're

21 having one of our own copies handed over to him. Could the usher please

22 help us.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: There should be the one he had yesterday.

24 MR. VISNJIC: In any case.

25 MR. STAMP: He has a copy in front of him. That, I think, is his

Page 1486

1 statement in Albanian. I can see from here the stamp of the certifying

2 officer when the declaration was made.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it.

4 MR. VISNJIC: Okay, then.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness says he already has the Albanian

6 version, so return that, please, to Mr. Visnjic. Thank you.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Pnishi, our questions are going to be very brief now, and I'm

9 going to ask you to give brief answers as well. I put it to you that

10 considerably before the 23rd of April, 1999, you even transferred your

11 livestock to Pask Markaj's house. Is that correct?

12 A. No, that's not correct.

13 Q. I'm also putting it to you, Mr. Pnishi, that Kole Duzhmani was

14 killed by the KLA. Is that correct?

15 A. That's not true.

16 Q. I also put it to you, Mr. Pnishi, that Kole Duzhmani was killed

17 because he did not meet his financial obligations vis-a-vis the KLA. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. That's not true, not at all true.

20 Q. Mr. Pnishi, who was with you when you found Kole Duzhmani's body?

21 A. I was there with my godfather Fran Markaj and my daughter Valbona

22 Pnishi.

23 Q. Nobody else as there; is that right?

24 A. No one else.

25 Q. All right. Mr. Pnishi, now I'm going to move on to page 4 of your

Page 1487

1 statement in which you describe the killing of seven persons on the

2 bridge, on Trava. Mr. Pnishi, on this map that is right in front of

3 you -- I'm sorry.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

5 Actually, first and foremost, I would like to ask that the witness

6 be shown a new, unmarked exhibit, 3D27.

7 Q. Could you please have a look.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we also have this enlarged. A

9 bit more, please. A bit more, please.

10 Q. Mr. Pnishi, can you mark the place where the bodies were, the

11 bodies of the killed persons?

12 A. The people who stopped them on the road to school, they took them

13 and -- and they killed them right here. They took seven persons from

14 here, and they took them right to the bridge, to the corner of the bridge.

15 Q. I apologise. Could you please mark on this map the place with

16 some number or a mark. Say, put the letter X, or a cross, yes.

17 A. Where the seven people were killed, you mean?

18 Q. The place where the bodies were when you checked them?

19 A. Five bodies were right here. So five bodies were on the bridge

20 and two had fallen off the bridge, but five were right here at the corner.

21 Two of the bodies had fallen down. I was on the third floor of Pask

22 Markaj's house, and in aerial distance it's just 15 metres away.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: That answered the question. That's answered the

24 question, and it's marked on the map with a red dot. Thank you.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

Page 1488

1 Q. And then you say that at 12.00 you went to this place where they

2 had been killed. By the way, were there five or four bodies there?

3 A. In all there were seven bodies, and the oldest was no more than

4 25, 25 and under. I just wanted to ascertain whether any of my sons was

5 among them. I checked them, and I left them there, and then I went back

6 to Pask Markaj's house. So five were on the bridge and two had fallen

7 down from there.

8 Q. Two. That's right.

9 A. In the water.

10 Q. Mr. Pnishi, who was with you? Mr. Pnishi, who was with you when

11 you got out of the house and went to the bridge to check this? I mean

12 these bodies.

13 A. I did not allow anyone to follow me, to come with me, because soon

14 after that the police were surrounding the area and I didn't want anybody

15 to come with me. So I went there. I went to the bridge, and I turned the

16 bodies over to check, and all of them were young men, and I saw that no

17 one was any of my sons. Then I went back to the house.

18 Q. Mr. Pnishi, I put it to you that on the 27th of April, around

19 2.00, Dragutin Prentic with his wife Jovanka came to Pask Markaj's house.

20 Am I right?

21 A. Not at 2.00, but it was about 5.00 in the afternoon. It was not

22 in the courtyard of Pask Markaj, but he called, "Pask, Pask," from his own

23 house, and he asked just, "Are you alive?" That's all he asked from

24 there.

25 Q. I put it to you, Mr. Pnishi, that with Dragutin Prentic you left

Page 1489

1 the courtyard of Pask Markaj's house. Is that correct?

2 A. Same day.

3 Q. The same day after 2.00 in the afternoon?

4 A. That's not correct. It's true that he called from his own

5 courtyard, "Pask, Pask, are you alive?" That's what he said, yes.

6 Q. I put it to you, Mr. Pnishi, that together with Dragutin Prentic

7 you came to the bodies, that you did exactly what you described. You

8 turned a body to check to see whether it was anyone of your own that had

9 been killed. Is that correct?

10 A. No, that's not correct. That's not correct. When I went to the

11 bodies, I also called for Dragan to come along with me so nobody could

12 kill me, but Dragan could not come. Jovanka, his wife, said, "Wait. I

13 can come with you to there." And I wait until I turned them over, and she

14 had -- she was nearly there, but then when she saw what had happened, then

15 she put her hands on her head very worried and she turned back. She

16 started crying, and she turned back to her house. She couldn't cope

17 seeing such a state of -- such a situation.

18 Q. I further put it to you, Mr. Pnishi, that together with Dragan

19 Prentic or Dragutin Prentic, it's the same person regardless of what the

20 transcript says, you left the bridge to see your own house, and after that

21 you returned together with him to the Markaj house. Am I right?

22 A. No, not that day. No, it's not correct. That day the things

23 stand as I described them. He did not come with me. His wife said she

24 was joining, but when she came halfway and saw what had happened, then she

25 put her hands on her head and started crying. She broke in tears.

Page 1490

1 A. I put it to you -- actually, Mr. Pnishi, on what day did you go

2 from Markaj's house to your house together with Dragan Prentic if it was

3 not that day?

4 A. Not that day. It was five, six days after that day. Dragan came

5 back from Gjakova together with his wife. They came to the house where I

6 was staying and brought some medicine for me. And the army went into my

7 courtyard. They killed some pigs. They took them away. And from there

8 with Dragan, Dragan said, "Let's go there to tell them not to take stuff."

9 And I said, "Let them do it. It won't help." When we went there, "Why

10 are you taking them?" The army people said, "The army will need them," so

11 they took them away, and we went back with Dragan.

12 Q. Are you telling me now before that -- those 19 days expired you

13 went to your house actually? Before that 19-day period when you said to

14 me that you found the body of Kole Duzhmani in your house, are you telling

15 me now that actually five or six days after the 27th you went to your

16 house?

17 A. You are confusing me with putting all these dates and times and

18 all that. You're confusing the picture, because before the 27th, we left

19 the house on the 23rd, and up until the 27th I had never been to the

20 house. I was never there.

21 Q. And then five or six days after the 27th, as you said just now,

22 you went to your house with Dragan Prentic; is that correct?

23 A. We did not enter the courtyard or the house which was just on the

24 road outside the gate, because we feared that the army and the police

25 would come. So he went into his house and then we went.

Page 1491

1 Q. But, Mr. Pnishi, today, at the beginning of your testimony, you

2 said to me - I think that's on page 22 - that after the 27th of April, you

3 did not go back and did not even approach your house for 19 days. That's

4 page 22, line 8 through 14. Now you're telling me that, nevertheless, you

5 did that after five or six days. So am I right?

6 A. You're not right, because it's not the same as going into the

7 house, entering the house, or just walking past the house and staying on

8 the road near the house. We never entered the house for 19 days. So we

9 didn't do that for 19 days.

10 Q. Mr. Pnishi, I see page 22, lines 29 and 30 [as interpreted], and

11 you said that you did not dare approach the house. Have you got anything

12 to say to that?

13 A. The truth is that we didn't dare. But Dragan said that, as he was

14 there, "Let's go together to tell them not to touch stuff from your

15 house," but they'd taken them so we came back. We didn't dare to get even

16 into the courtyard. For 19 days. For 19 days we couldn't do that.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript,

18 what I said was page 22, lines 12 and 13. So it should not say page 22,

19 lines 29 and 30, as it does say in the transcript.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you for correcting that, Mr. Visnjic.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Pnishi, as for the bridge where the bodies were, on the

23 left-hand side of the bridge, actually, are there bushes there that are

24 over 3 metres high? That's my question.

25 MR. STAMP: I know the witness is already answering but I rise. I

Page 1492

1 suspect there -- I suspect what my friend wants to ask if, on the 27th, on

2 the day in question, 27th of April, there were bushes here at that time.

3 The question reads there are, as if they were talking about the present.

4 Now, I don't want the witness to be answering one thing when the question

5 means another. I suspect the question relates to the date we're concerned

6 about.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you to Mr. Stamp.

9 Q. At the time when the bodies were there, that's the 27th of April,

10 springtime, well into spring, on that side of the bridge, on the left-hand

11 side of the bridge, are there any bushes there and trees that are up to 3

12 metres high or perhaps a bit above 3 metres? Am I right?

13 A. There was something like that near the bridge, and above the

14 bridge, yes, there are trees and bushes. Yes.

15 Q. Am I right, Mr. Pnishi, when I put it to you that from Pask

16 Markaj's house you could not see the actual place where the bodies were

17 and that that's why you went out, to have a look?

18 A. How couldn't I not see the bodies when in aerial distance from the

19 third floor of the house it's no more than 50 metres away? How can you

20 say that you cannot see the bridge? You could -- you could -- you could

21 see the bridge even from a kilometre away, because the trees had not

22 vegetated. They had not bloomed. You could not see -- it wasn't -- it

23 was a clear view.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pnishi, the question wasn't whether you could

25 see the bridge, it's whether you could see the bodies. And it's being

Page 1493

1 suggested that the bodies which would be on the ground could not be seen

2 because of the foliage. What's your answer to that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the window from which I was

4 looking from, there is no tree in the way to where the bodies were, to the

5 bridge. I saw them when they fired their automatic weapons. It's only 50

6 metres away.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Pnishi, what I assert is that it is correct that the bodies

9 were there and that it is correct that there was a total of six bodies

10 there, not seven, but that it is not correct that you saw the killing

11 itself. Am I right?

12 A. No, no, that's not correct. There were five bodies on the bridge

13 and two bodies had fallen off the bridge. There were seven all together.

14 I saw them when they lined the people up, when they shot them, and where

15 they fell on the ground. I saw who carried those bodies away from the

16 scene of the killing. I've seen them myself.

17 Q. Mr. Pnishi, you stayed in Pask Markaj's house until the end of the

18 war; is that right?

19 A. That's true. Yes. Sometimes there, sometimes even deeper into

20 the village, but that's true.

21 Q. Mr. Pnishi, can you explain the distinction to me? Why did you

22 feel safer in a house that was about 50 metres away from your own house?

23 MR. STAMP: Just a minor thing. Perhaps Mr. Visnjic could

24 indicate where it is that he said that it was 50, because I thought he

25 said it was a hundred.

Page 1494

1 JUDGE BONOMY: The answer -- he said it was 50 metres but no more

2 than a hundred. So we're talking about --

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] A hundred metres. I accept. Let me

4 rephrase my question.

5 Q. Mr. Pnishi, can you explain to us why was it that you felt safer

6 in a house that is not more than 100 metres away from your own house?

7 What's the difference?

8 A. Whenever you get an opportunity to get further away from where the

9 bullets are falling you feel a bit safer, because the -- the people were

10 trying to get further away from the concentrated forces, Serb forces, and

11 whoever came on the asphalted road was shot at, and my house is closer to

12 there. And if you manage to get further away from that shooting area it

13 was a bit safer.

14 Q. So there is no special reason why it was precisely Pask Markaj's

15 house except for the fact that it's about a hundred metres away from the

16 road?

17 A. Where else could I go? Because if I crossed the asphalt road, I

18 might have got killed. So my intention was to go away from the fire, or

19 from the shots as much as I could, even if it was one metre away.

20 Q. Mr. Pnishi, therefore, you are telling me that it is only natural

21 for people to get away from a place where there is a conflict. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes. Nobody likes to get killed. They were all innocent people,

24 those who were killed in Cabrat. All of them were all innocent.

25 Q. Mr. Pnishi, since you mentioned Cabrat, is that the hill that was

Page 1495

1 bombed during the NATO strikes? It was often bombed. It was targeted the

2 most perhaps in all of the Djakovica municipality. Did you have that

3 Cabrat hill in mind?

4 A. Yes. This is what I meant, the Cabrat hill where every 50 metres

5 you could find a tank stationed there.

6 Q. Mr. Pnishi, could you tell me this: As we mentioned already, you

7 testified in the Milosevic case, and at page 9293, during a

8 cross-examination -- excuse me. It was in response to Judge Kwon's

9 question concerning your previous assertion that you understand Russian.

10 You said that the person whom you identified was Russian said something in

11 Russian, something along the lines of "Destroy it." What did that person

12 say in Russian?

13 A. When I opened the door to them and I told them in Serbian --

14 Q. No, Mr. Pnishi. This is all in your statement. I'm interested in

15 this particular phrase. What did you hear him say in Russian, something

16 that would mean "Destroy it," in English?

17 A. Yes. The Russian didn't understand the name, because they were

18 looking for my brother. But the last name is the same, Kole Djelosh, and

19 Kole Duzhmani. It's similar. So they took him and shot him in the

20 kitchen of my brother's home. They were talking among themselves. They

21 were not talking Serbian.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Please listen to the question that you're being

23 asked. It's a very -- it's a very specific question. Mr. Visnjic will

24 put it again, but concentrate on that question and please answer that

25 question.

Page 1496

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Pnishi, what did you hear them say in Russian that would

3 mean "Destroy it"?

4 A. They didn't speak Serbian among themselves because I know Serbian.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pnishi, it's a clear, specific question.

6 Please answer the question you've been asked, which is what did they say

7 in Russian? Never mind the fact that they didn't speak Serbian. Just

8 tell us what they said in Russian.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Pnishi, just to remind you. You mentioned that yesterday in

11 your testimony, but it wasn't answered in -- entered into the transcript,

12 although I heard you say that. Could you please repeat what is it that

13 you said they said in Russian? "Destroy it"?

14 A. They said "unisti." Him. He was outside the yard and he

15 addressed this soldier who was inside my yard, and told him "unisti ga,"

16 which means destroy him, liquidate him --

17 Q. In B/C/S. And based on your knowledge of Russian, you claim that

18 this was Russian, that this was a Russian phrase.

19 A. When he said "zdravstvujte," I understood that he was not a Serb.

20 Q. All right, Mr. Pnishi?

21 JUDGE BONOMY: It's certainly not all right with me. Is Unisti Ga

22 Serbian or is it Russian?

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I believe Honourable Judge Kamen

24 could assist you with that.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the witness ought to assist us.

Page 1497

1 What is it that you actually heard being said? Was it words which

2 were Serbian or words which were Russian?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The word that he said from outside

4 the yard to the other soldier he said in Serbian, "Is Durosh [as

5 interpreted] Kole here?" He said "Tuka je, tuka je." "Unisti ga," said

6 to him, this other guy from outside the yard, and they took Kole Markaj

7 [as interpreted] to my brother's home and shot him. Duzhmani.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And those people were Russian; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. I am 100 per cent sure that they were Russians because if

11 they had spoken Serbian I would have understood them.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, Mr. Visnjic. And before you carry on,

13 are you finished now with the map which is on the screen?

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So that gets a number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit number

17 IC6.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before it's removed, if it's going to be

19 removed, Jahoc, which is referred to on this map, is in which direction?

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the way I understood

21 it, Jahovci is on the other side of the bridge. Perhaps the witness could

22 clarify.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... As we look at

24 it.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As you say, Your Honour, on

Page 1498

1 the other side of the bridge.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And is it immediately over the bridge that you

3 regard yourself in Jahoc or is it further away than that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once you cross the bridge you are in

5 Jahoc.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. Mr. Visnjic.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have just a small

8 comment concerning the layout of the terrain. This is what was confusing

9 to us as well because it seemed to us that the witness was moving from one

10 place to the other, but once we determined the exact coordinates it turned

11 out that these were very close.

12 Q. Mr. Pnishi, you returned to your house from Pask Markaj's house

13 soon after the war was over. Can you remember the precise date?

14 A. On the 12th, I think it was, of June, in the morning, because the

15 army, the foreign army, entered Gjakova at midnight, and in the morning we

16 returned to our homes.

17 Q. Your house was not damaged; is that correct?

18 A. It was not burnt, but all the furniture, everything that was

19 there, everything was taken away. The equipment, the machinery we had,

20 everything.

21 Q. Since you mentioned the furniture, is it correct that at the

22 beginning of the war you transferred some of your furniture to Dragutin

23 Prentic's house for safekeeping?

24 A. It was before, much earlier, because I was afraid that they might

25 come to my home in the night and set it ablaze. So it is true that I

Page 1499

1 transferred a few precious pieces of furniture to his home and left it

2 there for a while.

3 Q. And he returned those items. They were preserved indeed.

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Is it true that after the war ended Dragutin Prentic's house was

6 set on fire?

7 A. Yes, that's true.

8 Q. Is it correct that several houses were set on fire? That family

9 possessed three houses, if I'm not mistaken.

10 A. That is true. They had three small houses, and the three of them

11 were burned.

12 Q. Who set his house on fire?

13 A. This I don't know.

14 Q. Do you know when his house was set on fire?

15 A. I am not sure about the exact date. It may be some -- over 20

16 days after liberation. I have not correct information about the date.

17 Q. And you don't know who set his house on fire; is that correct?

18 A. The fact is I don't. Had -- had I known, I wouldn't have let

19 anyone do that, because I might have let my brother live there.

20 Q. Mr. Pnishi, didn't you tell us today that everything that was

21 inside Dragutin Prentic's house you see from your own front yard, and you

22 described in some detail the events from 1998? How is it possible,

23 Mr. Pnishi, that you didn't see the moment when the house was set on fire?

24 A. It was done at night. How could I see it during night?

25 Q. Mr. Pnishi, on the 6th of March, 1998, at 10.30 p.m. it was also

Page 1500

1 dark when the house of Dragutin Prentic was shot at, and that's when you

2 saw that. Am I correct?

3 A. Yes, but at that time I couldn't have a wink of sleep at night for

4 six months on end. I kept watch of what was happening. I was afraid less

5 someone might come and kill us and burn us alive. But after the war, of

6 course I could sleep. I slept better.

7 Q. No, Mr. Pnishi, this is March, 1998. It wasn't wartime. I'm

8 talking about the 6th of March, 1998. But let us move on to another

9 question.

10 You said that Dragutin Prentic's house was set on fire during the

11 night; is that correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And I put it to you that one house was set on fire on one day and

14 the remaining two houses the next day; is that correct?

15 A. Not during the daylight. It was during night-time.

16 Q. Mr. Pnishi, are you trying to tell me that you were in your house

17 sleeping tight, whereas not even 50 metres away there was someone setting

18 your neighbour's house on fire? Is that what you're trying to tell me?

19 A. I was sleeping, and when the -- I saw the flames. I couldn't --

20 of course, how do you think I could sleep tight seeing the flames.

21 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Pnishi, that items were taken out of Dragutin

22 Prentic's house before the house was set on fire?

23 A. Someone who didn't have a house moved in and lived there. Then I

24 haven't seen anyone taking anything out of that house, and I don't know

25 anything about that.

Page 1501

1 Q. Although this was in your immediate proximity, although that was

2 your immediate neighbour, and although you stated here that you could see

3 from your house everything that was happening in their house and in their

4 front yard -- let's stop there. Is that correct first and foremost?

5 MR. STAMP: I'm trying not to somebody. It's a matter of

6 precision. If he's going to quote what the witness said then he should

7 quote it correctly. The witness did not say that he could see everything

8 that was happening inside the house. The witness could say that he saw

9 them take somebody into the house and heard shots after. He did not say

10 he could see everything that was happening inside the house.

11 And there is something else. In any case, the question about

12 whether or not he could see what happened to -- to Prentic's house has

13 been asked four or five times in different formats. The witness has

14 denied it. He didn't see what happened.

15 I don't know how many times counsel should be permitted to ask the

16 same question in different forms, so many times. There are time issues

17 here as well.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the only matter there that I would be

19 concerned about, Mr. Visnjic, in relation to this particular question is

20 whether you've properly asserted that the witness said he could see

21 everything that was happening in that house.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: He's told us what he could see, and we know that.

24 So --

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] At page 18, he said, "[In English]

Page 1502

1 He could see into my courtyard and I could see into his courtyard."

2 [Interpretation] When he was explaining what it was that he could see in

3 Dragutin Prentic's house and vice versa.

4 I may have been imprecise as to the events taking place inside the

5 house --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: But your question goes as far as to say -- you put

7 it on the basis that he could see into the house and the courtyard, and

8 that's what -- that's the point that's being made by Mr. Stamp. He could

9 see everything in the house and the courtyard.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept that I may not

11 have been very precise, but within the context of the fact that the house

12 is set on fire from the outside, not from the inside, I have a question, a

13 very direct question for Mr. Pnishi.

14 MR. STAMP: Again, that is, it is my submission, impermissible

15 comment, the context that it was set on fire from the outside and not from

16 the inside. I don't know Defence will bring later on but the witness has

17 accepted that it was set on fire from the inside -- from the outside or

18 from the inside. There has been no evidence as to where the fire

19 originated from. That is comment which is not based on evidence.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Visnjic, perhaps you could clarify that

21 with the witness first of all and then we could move on. Just ask him.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is a

23 question of common sense. It's very hard for me to believe that somebody

24 sets a house on fire from the inside and stays within.

25 Q. Mr. Pnishi, did you see anybody in the courtyard of the Prentic

Page 1503

1 house when the house was torched?

2 A. I was not even at home when that house was set ablaze. I haven't

3 seen anyone. I wasn't there when it was burned. I came after three, four

4 hours, when the first was set ablaze, whereas when the second house was

5 set on fire I was sleeping, and then when I saw the flames, I woke up.

6 Q. Very well. Did the person by the name of Prenan [phoen] Pnishi

7 participate in the torching of the Prentic house?

8 A. We don't have any such person. It's non-existent.

9 Q. Prend Pnishi.

10 A. Prend Pnishi. It is not there. It was my brother who died 25

11 years ago. There is nobody by that name.

12 Q. What about Kole Pnishi? Did he participate in the torching of the

13 Prentic house?

14 A. Never. Never. For the life of me, he would never have done that.

15 Q. Engjell Markaj, did he participate in the torching of the Prentic

16 house?

17 A. To cut a long story short, I can guarantee you, sir, that no one

18 from that area, Meja Orize, would have done that. I say this in full

19 responsibility.

20 Q. But you did not see who actually did that.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

22 questions for this witness.

23 Witness Pnishi, thank you for your patience.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

25 Now, Mr. Lukic.

Page 1504

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Pnishi. I am Branko Lukic,

4 and together with Dragan Ivetic and Ozren Ogrizovic I represent General

5 Lukic in this courtroom. I'll try and clarify certain things with you,

6 and I'll also try to put concise questions to you, and I call for your

7 concise answers. My time is limited, and I would kindly ask you to

8 understand that I will be forced to interrupt some of your answers. And

9 if the Trial Chamber is of the opinion that you have to finish your

10 answer, the Trial Chamber will ask you to do that.

11 You were a policeman. In 1983, you retired from the police force?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As a retired policeman, for how long did you receive your

14 retirement pay?

15 A. I received pension until 1999, the 1st of January or February, I

16 think.

17 Q. Thank you. As a retired police officer you were familiar with the

18 structure of the SUP and of the MUP?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Pnishi, are you aware of the fact that at the critical time

21 the chief of the SUP in Djakovica was Milovan Kovacevic? If you know, say

22 so. If you don't, just say no.

23 A. I can't remember now.

24 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that the chief of the crime

25 prevention department within the police was Milan Stanojevic?

Page 1505

1 A. Yes, I remember that.

2 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the chief of the uniformed police

3 was Radomir Colic?

4 A. Colic, I knew him somehow. Colic. I know him a little bit.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you. When you spoke about Milutin Prascevic on

6 page 2, paragraph 2 of your statement in B/C/S, and the same page and

7 paragraph applied to the English and Albanian versions as well, you put

8 Mr. Prascevic in the position of the chief of the crime prevention police.

9 We have just established that Milan Stanojevic held that position.

10 Before me I have death certificate for Prascevic, which says that

11 he was just a police officer, nothing more. Does that jog your memory at

12 all?

13 A. For the others I don't know, but for him I know that he was the

14 head of the unit, and he did anything that he wanted to do, and this is

15 known to everyone.

16 Q. When you say that he was the chief of a unit, what unit are you

17 referring to?

18 A. It was -- I'm talking about beating people, killing people, doing

19 whatever he wanted and nobody could tell him stop.

20 Q. What unit are you referring to? What are you talking about when

21 you say that he was the head of a unit, that Prascevic was the head of a

22 unit?

23 A. I -- I don't know what he was, but he did whatever he wanted to

24 do. He was like the boss of bosses, and he could do anything and no one

25 could tell him to stop.

Page 1506

1 Q. Can we then agree that what you stated in your statement is not

2 correct? The statement was given on the 4th of April, 2000. That's the

3 statement I'm referring to, which is Exhibit 2236, the Prosecutor's

4 Exhibit 2236. And when I say that, I mean that Milutin Prascevic was the

5 chief of the crime prevention department of the Djakovica MUP.

6 The question may have been too long, Mr. Pnishi. Let me rephrase.

7 Is it true that you actually don't know what was Prascevic's

8 position within the MUP of Serbia?

9 A. I don't know his position. He was civilian, in civilian clothing,

10 and that was all the time. And he did anything that he wanted to do in

11 the region of Gjakova, and everybody knows that.

12 Q. Thank you. When you're talking about the killing of Milutin

13 Prascevic on the transcript page 1441, lines 17 to 21, you say the

14 following: "On the 22nd of April, around 5.00 in the afternoon, in Meja,

15 the militant criminal Prascevic, with four men very much like him, was

16 killed."

17 In your view, is it the right thing for these people to have been

18 killed?

19 A. We heard about this when all the police and the military came to

20 the area and they gathered there and we heard that he was killed.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Again I must interrupt you. You're not answering

22 the question that you've been asked. Please listen to the question that's

23 being asked. And you're being asked whether in your opinion you thought

24 it was right that Prascevic and his colleagues were killed. In other

25 words, was that a good thing in your opinion?

Page 1507

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, it's not good to kill

2 anyone, but they were killed.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that among these men, among the five

5 men, Naser Arifaj was also killed? He was an Albanian, a member of the

6 local security guards?

7 A. I had heard about him, but I don't know who the man is.

8 Q. You were aware of the existence of the institution of local

9 security in your area, in your village, of the local guards?

10 A. Not in our village. In other villages, yes.

11 Q. You know that these units were composed of local Albanians, don't

12 you?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. You also know that they had special uniforms by which they

15 recognised each other?

16 A. Yell.

17 Q. You also know that these units were armed?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You know that members of these units were selected or elected by

20 the local population.

21 A. This is not correct. They were selected by the Serbian police,

22 not the people, not by the people.

23 Q. Are you aware of the fact that these units were not established by

24 the police but, rather, by the municipal assemblies?

25 A. The Municipal Assembly selected them together with the police.

Page 1508

1 Q. Mr. Pnishi, I would like to move on to another armed formation,

2 and I would like to ask you something about the existence of the KLA in

3 your area. In the area of your village and in the general area, were

4 there KLA units? Were any of the KLA units operational in that area?

5 A. In my area there haven't been any KLA units. In 1998, in other

6 villages, yes, there were, but in 1999 there weren't.

7 Q. Is it true that in the area of Lugu and Carragojs, all the way up

8 to the Keqe river, actually, the KLA was operational and existed there?

9 A. I'm saying that in 1998 there were units, but when the offensive

10 took place in 1999 there weren't any units there.

11 Q. As for your testimony today that Prascevic and the other four

12 policemen were killed by some of the locals of Meja, is that what you're

13 saying or are you saying that this was done by the KLA?

14 A. Please, can you repeat the question once again?

15 Q. Who killed Prascevic, in your view, as well as the other four

16 police officers? Were they killed by the KLA or the locals of Meja?

17 A. In my opinion, the KLA could not get to that area because on both

18 sides there was the deployment of the Serbian army, and there were

19 checkpoints every 100 metres and there were units deployed. I -- and I

20 can tell you 100 per cent that none of the villagers or the KLA killed

21 him.

22 Q. What is your testimony, that they -- they were fighting amongst

23 each other? Can you tell us what you think? Who killed him?

24 A. Those who killed him, they know it, because there are many cases

25 like this that have taken place. And I don't know who killed them, but

Page 1509

1 those who did it, they know it better.

2 Q. You hail from Ramoc; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, I'm from Ramoc.

4 Q. Is Ramoc also part of the area that we have just mentioned, the

5 area of Lug and Carragojs, all the way to the Carragojs river valley?

6 A. Yes. They're included in Gjakova.

7 Q. Before me I have a list, and I'm going to ask you whether you know

8 any of the people on that list. Nik Pnishi from Ramoc.

9 A. Nik Pnishi from Ramoc?

10 Q. Born on the 18th of May, 1963.

11 A. Not from Arec [as interpreted], Nec [Realtime transcript read in

12 error "Not from Nec"]. I don't know when he was born.

13 Q. Do you know him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Pal Pnishi from Ramoc, do you know him? He was born on the 17th

16 of October, 1966.

17 A. He's from Nec too.

18 Q. Okay. Do you know Kent Pnishi, born on the 9th of October, 1980,

19 also from Nec village?

20 A. It's part of the same family. He's a member of the same family.

21 Q. Do you know Mark Pnishi?


23 MR. STAMP: I'm just wondering if there might be something with

24 the transcript. Perhaps the question could be asked again. Having regard

25 to the last two answers, I'm wondering if the transcript correctly records

Page 1510

1 the answer to the question at line 14 of page 55.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Line 14.

3 MR. STAMP: Line 19 I beg your pardon he says no and looking at

4 the other records I'm wondering if the record correctly reflects what the

5 witness said. Perhaps it could be clarified.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm sure you could do it in re-examination if

7 you wish. I don't see any need to interrupt the cross-examination.

8 Carry on.

9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pnishi, we have left it off with the person

11 named Mark Pnishi, born on the 3rd of April, 1949, from Nec village, but

12 born in Ramoc. Sir, do we have an answer to my question? Mr. Pnishi?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the question?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What -- what answer do you want me

15 to give?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you know the person?

18 A. I know. I know him.

19 Q. Mr. Pnishi, these persons, together with some other persons, make

20 up a group of 42 people altogether whose names are on the criminal report

21 in connection with terrorist activity which points to the fact that they

22 belong to the KLA. Are you familiar --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. What is this document you're referring

24 to? "The criminal report in connection with terrorist activity." That

25 sounds like a very voluminous document.

Page 1511

1 MR. LUKIC: It's not that voluminous, Your Honour. It's composed

2 on 11 pages.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is it dealing with a particular event?

4 MR. LUKIC: Later on it does have some sort of explanation, not

5 very long.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Has it been disclosed?

7 MR. LUKIC: Not yet, Your Honour.


9 MR. LUKIC: As you know, we are receiving documents on a daily

10 basis.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I may take a bit of convincing on that one in view

12 of what's been happening here. Are you telling me that -- well, you tell

13 me when you got this document.

14 MR. LUKIC: I cannot tell you right now, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: That's very unsatisfactory, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: In the last two days, I guess.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it should have been disclosed should is not?

18 When we resume after the break unless there's a satisfactory explanation

19 you'll not be allowed to ask that question.

20 We'll break now and we will resume at 2.00.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, what is the position with the

24 document?

25 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid that Your Honours won't be satisfied

Page 1512

1 because we have this document from April, I guess. I received it last

2 night with two other documents, the new ones, but this one we have for a

3 while.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, what's your position?

5 MR. STAMP: We have not received the documents as yet, not even

6 now, so we can't -- the position is that we would need to see the document

7 and to review the document before we can say if we could proceed with it.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Very well. We'll move on to something

9 else, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honours.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pnishi, again I shall go back to Milutin

12 Prascevic, very briefly. You knew this person from before; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you know his parents?

15 A. Yes. His father.

16 Q. He was a well-known person in that region; right?

17 A. I don't know whether he was a well-known person.

18 Q. I mean, did many people know him, both Albanians and Serbs?

19 A. I don't know in the circle he lived, because he lived far from

20 Gjakova.

21 Q. Where did he live, please?

22 A. In the Decan municipality.

23 Q. You are talking about Milutin Prascevic, or are you talking about

24 his father?

25 A. I'm talking about his father.

Page 1513

1 Q. I beg you pardon. There has been a misunderstanding and the fault

2 is all mine. Did many Albanians and Serbs in the area know Milutin

3 Prascevic?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And he lived in Djakovica; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. On page 40, line 9 of today's transcript, you say,

8 "Wherever you seek shelter from the bullets that are falling you feel

9 safer." I assume that the same goes for bombs; right?

10 A. I believe, yes. So?

11 Q. On page 41, line 1, you say that at Cabrat there was a tank at

12 every 50 metres and that that hill was constantly being bombed. Don't you

13 think that in that case many tanks would have been destroyed very quickly

14 had there been that kind of deployment?

15 A. As to tanks, the tanks were lined from Gjakova to Junik, Cabrat

16 and upwards, but the tanks shelled the villages. The houses, they set

17 fire to them, and then they -- some of them withdrew. I don't know in

18 what direction.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: There were two parts to that question. The other

20 one was the suggestion that NATO were constantly bombing that site. Is

21 that the position?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] NATO bombed it when there were

23 barracks, army barracks. In the case of Cabrat, there wasn't any army

24 barracks there.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, are you saying they did or they did not bomb

Page 1514

1 Cabrat?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't bomb Cabrat. The NATO

3 bombed only those places where army barracks were located.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, the passage at page -- the beginning of

5 page 41 does not bear the influence that the witness was saying bombing

6 was there constant limit it was one of these double questions where it's

7 actually very difficult to tell for sure what the answer relates to, but

8 all you can take from that answer is that the witness said that Cabrat

9 hill was where you could find a tank stationed every 50 metres.

10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I think that the witness clarified

11 that his position is that Cabrat was not bombed.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You say that the soldiers asked your son to show his ID; right?

15 The Russian soldiers, I mean.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You say that they returned the ID because they didn't know how to

18 read the Albanian language.

19 A. That's true.

20 Q. Did your son have an Albanian ID or a Serbian ID?

21 A. An Albanian ID.

22 Q. So he did not have an ID of Serbia.

23 A. No. At that time the IDs were written in Albanian.

24 Q. Are you trying to say that a Serbian ID was written out only in

25 the Albanian language?

Page 1515

1 A. The Albanian inhabitants received it in Albanian language, whereas

2 the Serbs in Serbian.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd just like to ask you something about what you

4 referred to on page 3, last paragraph in the B/C/S version. Just a

5 moment, please. We'll find the other versions very quickly too. Last

6 paragraph of page 3 in the English version, and then it continues on the

7 page after that. And the third paragraph on page 4 of the Albanian

8 language version.

9 Here you say that four soldiers torched your brother's house. On

10 transcript page 106 from yesterday, line 21, you say that the house burned

11 down. And on page 4, last paragraph of the Serbian version, in the

12 English version it's page 5, paragraph 1, and in the Albanian version it's

13 page 6, paragraph 1 -- [In English] I mixed two incidents.

14 [Interpretation] When you were talking about Kole Duzhmani, which

15 is on page 3 -- paragraph 4 of the English version, page 4, paragraph 2 of

16 the Albanian version, that is where you refer to Kole Duzhmani. In the

17 next paragraph you say that a Russian soldier was instructed to kill him,

18 and then you describe how he was killed and that the house that he had

19 been killed in was set on fire.

20 Your testimony is that 19 days later you found this body, and you

21 recognised the bullet holes in the body; is that right?

22 A. Yes. In his body and on the wall.

23 Q. Is it your testimony today that in the month of April the body had

24 not decayed within 19 days but the bullet holes were still discernible?

25 A. Yes, it may be true, because in the room where his body was found

Page 1516

1 had a cement floor. All the furniture in the kitchen were burned down,

2 but the smoke in the room preserved the body. So the body might have been

3 left there for months and end and it would still be in good condition.

4 Q. So the body had not been charred due to the fire.

5 A. No, no, it was not.

6 Q. On page 4, the last paragraph of the B/C/S version, in the English

7 version it's page 5, paragraph 1, and in the Albanian version it's page 6,

8 paragraph 1, you say the following as you refer to the remains of 74

9 persons that had been killed in a particular place and burned. This is

10 what you say: "The traces of the burnt bodies were very clear, and so I

11 could estimate that about 74 persons had been burned there."

12 How was it that you established that at that particular spot they

13 had been burned and then removed, because you say there were traces of

14 burning there. You refer to these 74 bodies.

15 A. When I went there along with some foreign teams which came from

16 England and to other countries. First they came up to my house because my

17 house was closer to the road and my brother's house was burned. So

18 together with them we went and examined the places where people had been

19 killed.

20 When we went to Meja cemetery near the meadow there, we saw the

21 bodies, the places where they had been burned, we saw traces there, and we

22 saw also the automatic rifles. Very few remains had been left. And the

23 foreigners took the remains along with the cartridges in 74 different

24 places. That's all I know.

25 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I have a question here. By cartridges you mean

Page 1517

1 the empty of the cartridge, the empty of the cartridge?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I mean the shells. Yes, the

3 cartridge of the bullet.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

5 Q. If I understood you correctly, at least that's what the English

6 interpretation says, automatic rifles were found there as well. How many

7 automatic rifles were found there, please?

8 A. No. I meant the automatic rifle cartridges, not the actual

9 automatic rifles. They were spread all over, the cartridges, and the

10 foreigners took -- picked up some of them, three, four, as many as they

11 found, and put them in their bags.

12 Q. Again, I don't understand. I'm sorry if it's my mistake. How was

13 it that you came to the number of 74? Could you please explain that.

14 A. Yes, it's easy for me explain. The foreigners, and I was there

15 with them, went to every place and found whatever remains, little as it

16 were found, and they saw 74 adjoining places of people with some remains,

17 and they were burnt with gas oil, with petrol.

18 Q. So you were not the one who established the number of the bodies

19 involved, but you found out from some foreigners, as you had put it.

20 A. But I was there with them all the time. How couldn't I know? We

21 could find together all the remains of the dead bodies. The interpreter

22 was there. So we picked up all the remains belonging to 74 bodies. We

23 might have said 200, 20, but that is not true. We found 74 places with

24 human remains.

25 Q. Do you remember who these foreigners were at that particular

Page 1518

1 location?

2 A. This I don't know. They were 22 different teams coming and going.

3 I can't remember them. They took pictures of the place. They filled it

4 with camera. So I can't remember. Seven and a half years have passed.

5 Q. Were these forensic experts or journalists? Please.

6 A. I don't know. I only know that they were foreigners bringing

7 along interpreters to help them. But other than that, I don't know

8 whether they were experts or not. I didn't the right to ask them who they

9 were.

10 Q. Do you remember when this happened? Roughly?

11 A. The first say of liberation and onwards.

12 Q. Thank you. Let us just conclude. You personally did not

13 establish how many corpses there were, or charred bodies, and you cannot

14 say who it was who established that and who we can check this with; is

15 that right?

16 JUDGE BONOMY: We can deduce from the evidence that the witness

17 has given what are the appropriate conclusions, Mr. Lukic. There's no

18 need to go over this matter again.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Just briefly now. We're on the English version

21 paragraph 5, page 4. At Albanian version, page 4 -- page 5, paragraph 4.

22 You're talking about your fear, when you were afraid that one of the

23 killed persons was your son and when you went to check whether he was

24 there. You established that there were no members of your family there;

25 is that right?

Page 1519

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. You did not recognise any one of the victims; is that right?

3 A. No, I did not. All of them were young men.

4 Q. You know all the people from your own village; right?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Obviously, then, these were not people from your village. Rather,

7 they were people from elsewhere.

8 A. No, they were not from my village.

9 Q. How can you know that they were not KLA fighters?

10 A. Had they been KLA soldiers, they would have not have come to that

11 crossroads on the road to Albania. They would have taken to the

12 mountains. They were all innocent men, 16, 17, 18 years old. If they

13 were KLA members, they would have been in the mountains. They were along

14 with their families, with tractors and cars.

15 Q. So you know that in the hills, in the mountains there were members

16 of the KLA.

17 A. Yes, but they were kilometres away, maybe 10 or more kilometres

18 away and not there in the vicinity of the village.

19 Q. Mr. Pnishi, did you know that in the village of Nec there was a

20 Mujahedin unit as part of the KLA?

21 A. No, I don't know. I haven't seen such a thing. No, no. There

22 hadn't been.

23 Q. Do you know that members of the KLA set up checkpoints along the

24 roads in your municipalities trying to prevent the flow of regular

25 traffic?

Page 1520

1 A. I haven't come across such thing in our area.

2 Q. Did you move about in the Djakovica municipality during 1998 and

3 1999?

4 A. Gjakova is a kilometre and a half away. I have gone there for

5 some emergency, but there were military checkpoints. Every 500 metres

6 there was a police -- a military checkpoint, and there was no civilian

7 movement around there.

8 Q. If civilians didn't use the roads, how did they move about?

9 A. Everyone stayed at home, because they knew if -- if they had to go

10 through a checkpoint, you either managed to cross alive or you -- you

11 disappeared.

12 Q. Did children attend school?

13 A. How could they get there through that military checkpoint? The

14 children are children. There was -- there was no school for the kids.

15 Q. Is it your testimony, Mr. Pnishi, that the children did not attend

16 school in 1998 and in early 1999?

17 A. Where there were checkpoints, they didn't go to school, but if the

18 school was within the area where there were no police and military

19 checkpoints, the children went to school. Otherwise, they didn't. But

20 where there were checkpoints, they didn't go across. If they were within

21 that area, then they went.

22 Q. If Mrs. Merita Dedaj, one of the OTP witnesses, stated in her

23 testimony that she did attend school and that she had to go across

24 checkpoint or through a checkpoint, would you believe she wasn't telling

25 the truth?

Page 1521

1 A. Where she lived, I think the school is right in the middle of the

2 village, so she could go to school, but I'm talking about the area where I

3 lived.

4 Q. Mrs. Or Ms. Merita Dedaj told us that she did attend school and

5 that she had to go across a checkpoint. In your view was she telling the

6 truth or not, since I can see now that you know which routes she moved

7 along and where her school was. And according to her testimony, she

8 attended school in Djakovica.

9 A. From Korenica to Gjakova there were four checkpoints. If there

10 was another road to the school without checkpoints, that's possible, but

11 on the other side there were no checkpoints on the other side from there

12 because there were not many people living in those villages.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pnishi. I won't dwell on this topic any longer.

14 Thank you, Mr. Pnishi. This exhausts the questions I had for you today.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

16 Mr. Aleksic.

17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Pnishi.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to say

21 something if I may. Just two words if you -- I wanted to say a word. If

22 they have questions -- if they have questions, let them be quicker in

23 asking them, because the sugar levels, I've got them up to 18, and I do

24 not feel well. I've got a problem with diabetes.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pnishi had some treatment at lunchtime for his

Page 1522

1 diabetes, and there was always the possibility that he would begin to be

2 unable to deal with questions. So if you could continue as quickly as

3 possible, within reason, then that would be helpful for the moment.

4 Mr. Aleksic.

5 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best to be as efficient

6 as possible, Your Honour. Your Honour, perhaps it would be good to have a

7 break now since I don't believe the witness feels very well.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you feel unable to continue, Mr. Pnishi, or do

9 you wish to continue?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we can continue.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Aleksic.

12 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pnishi. My name is Aleksander Aleksic. I'm

14 an attorney-at-law, and together with my team I appear on behalf of

15 General Nebojsa Pavkovic. I have but a few short questions for you since

16 I believe my learned friends dealt with most of the questions previously.

17 Just a couple of things stemming out of your testimony today.

18 On page 60, line 10 of the transcript, you stated that NATO did

19 not bomb Cabrat. Is that correct?

20 A. NATO did not bomb Cabrat. They would have gone bombing Cabrat if

21 there was Serbian military targets to go after.

22 Q. Mr. Pnishi, perhaps you can answer with a yes or no. It will go

23 quicker. How far is Cabrat from Jakoc [phoen]. What is the distance?

24 A. 800 metres.

25 Q. Thank you. What if I told you that mount or hill Cabrat was

Page 1523

1 bombed nine times between the 24th of March until the 10th of June? It

2 was bombed on nine occasions and it received 84 hits by projectiles.

3 A. I haven't been there to visit. The people who went to that area,

4 they died because of the mines. The area was mined. I didn't go to the

5 area where you say there was bombing.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pnishi, yesterday, I believe during your

7 examination-in-chief, you made markings on a map and you explained what

8 villages fell into the Carragojs Valley. Can you tell me what the

9 distance is between Jahoc and Dobros?

10 A. Dobros.

11 Q. Yes, Dobros.

12 A. It's about 10 kilometres, but there are other villages there.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pnishi, in your testimony today, in response to my

14 learned friend Mr. Lukic's answer on page 66, line 1, you stated that the

15 KLA was in the hills, and then a few lines below that you said that they

16 were up to 10 kilometres away in the hills. Is that correct?

17 A. In hills and mountains.

18 Q. Up to a distance of 10 kilometres.

19 A. Yes, 10 more or less. I don't know the places exactly where they

20 were.

21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pnishi, just one more thing regarding your

22 statement. In the Albanian this is page 3, the penultimate paragraph. In

23 the English that is page 3, paragraph 2, and in the B/C/S the same. There

24 you state -- describing the people who entered your house, you said, the

25 remaining two spoke Russian. They wore the same grey pants and jackets as

Page 1524

1 the Serb paramilitaries. Is that correct? Is that what you said?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. On that same page in Albanian, and it continues on the next page,

4 you mention those Russian soldiers again, and I presume all of those

5 soldiers you saw whom you qualified as being Russian wore the same

6 uniforms as the Serb paramilitary forces; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. Meja and Meja Orize, these

9 are two different villages, are they?

10 A. Two villages joined to each other.

11 Q. So they are adjacent.

12 A. Very close to each other.

13 Q. Could we please show P35 to the witness.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: This necessary for any particular reason?

15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I will ask a question if it assists. Is there a

17 village or hamlet called Orize or is the village and hamlet called Meja

18 Orize?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Meja and Orize. They

20 are two villages joined to each other.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If -- if he's talking about the

23 Orize in Gjakova, it's -- it's a neighbourhood in Gjakova in a different

24 place, but these are two villages joined to each other.

25 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes my

Page 1525

1 cross-examination, but the map I have from the Kosovo atlas shows it as

2 being separate. I believe it could be seen from P35. There is Meja and

3 Orize. They are not merged. According to the map, there is at least two

4 and a half kilometres in between.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You have the witness's evidence on that and if you

6 wish to contradict that with other evidence that can be done in your own

7 case or through another witness.

8 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No other

9 questions.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Aleksic.

11 Mr. Bakrac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe you will like

13 what I have to say. I have no questions for this witness.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 Mr. O'Sullivan?

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no questions.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And Mr. Fila.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Judge Kamenova has a question for you.

22 JUDGE KAMENOVA: Mr. Pnishi, can you tell us something about your

23 education? We know that you served as a police officer for 15 years. Did

24 you have any specialised, any professional training?

25 A. I finished the high school, gymnasium.

Page 1526

1 JUDGE KAMENOVA: Thank you, Mr. Pnishi.

2 A. You're welcome.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp?

4 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:

6 Q. You said in cross-examination that you saw who carried away the

7 bodies from the scene of the killing of the seven young men and boys on

8 the bridge. Who was it who carried away the bodies?

9 A. Yes. They were taken by Hamdija Alitaj and his two sons, Halit

10 and Sabit. They came, they loaded the corpses on the bridge, and they got

11 the other two corpses which had fallen off the bridge, got them on board a

12 tractor, and then they also followed another lorry with corpses. They

13 went in the direction of Gjakova as far as we could see them. We saw

14 them, and then we don't know what happened to the corpses.

15 Q. Did you speak with Hamdija Alitaj at all?

16 A. I spoke with him, Hamdija Alitaj. He came and met us. He came to

17 borrow a mower from us, but we know that he was a collaborator and we

18 offered him one or two, how many he wanted, and he said, "I have loaded up

19 to 412, 412 corpses here and in Korenica."

20 JUDGE BONOMY: How does this arise out of cross-examination?

21 MR. STAMP: The witness went on and much explanation but his

22 evidence was limited from him in cross-examination as to his observations

23 in respect to --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's confine it to that and not 412 corpses. But

25 you also need to control the witness, Mr. Stamp.

Page 1527

1 MR. STAMP: Very well.

2 Q. You said in cross-examination that the tanks shelled the villages

3 and set fire to the houses. Two questions: Which tanks or the tanks

4 belonged to which formation, and when was it that they shelled the

5 village -- the villages, and set fire to the houses?

6 A. They were the tanks of the Serbian army, and they shelled from

7 Cabrat to Babaj. From Ramoc they shelled Nec, from Boboj [phoen] to Nec

8 to Ramoc. They had occupied some vantage points, and they shelled from

9 there.

10 Q. When was it? Or approximate about when was it?

11 A. That was in 1999, after NATO started bombing. Even before there

12 had been cases, there were cases.

13 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I have nothing

14 further for the witness.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp. Mr. Pnishi, that concludes

16 your evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are

17 now free to leave. And if you wish to consult the doctor before you go,

18 he will be available for that purpose.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you

20 very much.

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before we -- unless it relates to this

23 witness --

24 MR. HANNIS: No, it doesn't, Your Honour. It relates to calling

25 in the next witness.

Page 1528

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give me a moment, Mr. Hannis.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: We will go briefly into private session till I

4 raise one matter with counsel relating to investigations that are

5 ongoing.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1529

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MR. HANNIS: Although maybe I'd prefer to stay in private.

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. Your Honour, as I indicated I wanted to

22 raise a matter pertaining to the ongoing issue of the OSCE ICG forms that

23 came up in connection first with Ms. Mitchell and then regarding some of

24 the other witnesses. We received, I think, a supplemental filing

25 from the Lukic team concerning this issue today. We intend to file

Page 1530

1 something hopefully by the end of the day in connection with that.

2 I would like to read something from an email I had from one of my

3 colleagues who has been working on this issue and seemed to understand it

4 much better than I do, and just to give the Court that information, we

5 hope our written filing can clear it up, but based on my experience so

6 far -- maybe it's just me, but it's the kind of thing I have difficulty

7 understanding, even when it's pointed out to me with the two documents

8 side by side by our analyst and by one of our lawyers. I can grasp it for

9 a minute or two and feel that I have it but when I try to convey it to a

10 third person it's difficult.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Would it not be -- if you're concerned that we

12 decide something before you get a chance to address the issue completely,

13 then we can perhaps deal with that. Would it not be better if the filings

14 were initially completed and then we had a brief hearing with everything

15 on the table because I -- I've just got a feeling that if you start

16 embarking on oral submissions without having completed the filing process

17 we're going to get into a ping-pong exchange that may not advance matters.

18 MR. HANNIS: I -- I'm fine with that, Your Honour. I was

19 concerned that my oral submission might raise more questions than it

20 answers because that's what's happened to me before.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So if you complete the oral -- the written filing

22 exercise, then I will raise the question of whether any counsel wishes to

23 make any oral submissions before we take the matter further, although I

24 see there may even be resistance to that suggestion.

25 Mr. Visnjic.

Page 1531

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just inform you

2 that I've just received an e-mail that we have also made filings in

3 accordance with your ruling. I don't know if anybody else would like to

4 subscribe to this, but I think that as far as submissions are concerned,

5 this is it.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it was that filing that Mr. Hannis referred

7 to, was it?

8 MR. IVETIC: Actually, Your Honour, the Lukic team also had filed

9 something late last night which, I believe, is what Mr. Hannis was

10 referring to..

11 MR. HANNIS: That is the one I had seen from the Lukic team.

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Lukic has already been filed and I

13 think that ours is being filed as we speak, so you'll get it within a few

14 hours.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the Chamber will give you an opportunity to

16 indicate if you feel a further explanation is called for orally or an

17 expansion on the submissions is called for orally before we make and final

18 decision on this matter.

19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

21 MR. HANNIS: Our next witness will be Hani Hoxha.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm not sure if the witness is here. I

24 have some indication that he may be on the way from the hotel. I know he

25 was here earlier this morning. He went home at lunchtime, and I think

Page 1532

1 perhaps the victim witness had him on standby anticipating it was going to

2 take longer than it did.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: In Scotland we never allow witnesses to go home at

4 lunchtime on a Friday.

5 MR. HANNIS: I understand. .

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Someone is checking, I take it, Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: I am informed he is on his way. The hotel is --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Close by?

9 MR. HANNIS: -- ten minutes. I'm told any minute, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Any minute.

11 MR. HANNIS: Any minute.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay, we'll be patient.

13 MR. HANNIS: I don't know if you wanted to continue to wait or

14 take an early break.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: No we will wait, because of the -- because of the

16 need for breaks, it's better if we carry on a little bit for the moment,

17 if we have that opportunity.

18 MR. HANNIS: Okay. In connection with our filing, Your Honour, I

19 wonder if -- if Defence counsel might agree and Your Honour might agree

20 that we could have until Monday to file that filing I mentioned concerning

21 the OSCE and ICG issue. Since I spoke, I've consulted with my case

22 manager and some information from my other lawyers.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think you can take it that from what we've

24 said that you're not going to be pre-empted if it takes you until Monday

25 to file.

Page 1533

1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, you can correct me if I'm wrong about

3 this, but I thought the arrangement for further witnesses or future

4 witnesses was to let us know on a Thursday, and I'm not sure that we've

5 got a list for next week yet.

6 MR. HANNIS: I'm informed that we did file it yesterday.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

8 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, we're filing -- and, Your Honour,

9 we're filing our list of September witnesses today.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: No. I was more concerned about the witnesses for

11 the beginning of next week -- or for next week, rather, and whether there

12 were any other than Peraj listed and whether you intended perhaps to

13 change the order or whether he is likely to be the next witness.

14 MR. HANNIS: I think we had anticipated that he would be the next

15 witness.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, okay.

17 MR. HANNIS: And then we have several others listed to follow him.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: It's important to us from the point of view of

19 preparation where you're relying on already available written material.

20 MR. HANNIS: Yes. And, Your Honour, in connection with Mr. Peraj,

21 I understand the outstanding documents have been translated and disclosed

22 to Defence today.

23 While we continue to wait, Your Honour, I can introduce another

24 new face on our side of the room. Seated to Mr. Stamp's left is Christa

25 Bosch, an intern working with us on this case right now.

Page 1534

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. You don't also juggle and sing, do you,

2 Mr. Hannis?

3 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour, I've tried "Juggling for the

4 Complete Klutz" without any success.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, since there's this uncertainty. We will

6 adjourn now. We'll take the break now until a quarter to, and we'll run

7 for an hour and three-quarters when we resume.

8 --- Recess taken at 3.14 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 3.56 p.m.

10 [The witness entered court]


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hoxha. Mr. Hoxha, can you please read the

14 solemn declaration which is being placed before you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please be seated.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hoxha, we have already received a

20 statement which you gave, and we have also received material, a transcript

21 from the evidence you gave before when you were here in the trial of

22 Slobodan Milosevic, but as with all the witnesses in this case, there is a

23 phase in the procedure, a stage when you come to the Tribunal to give

24 evidence even though you've been before. This case relates to different

25 accused persons. They are represented in this instance by a responsible

Page 1535

1 counsel who themselves will ask the questions rather than the accused

2 themselves. What we would ask you to do is listen carefully to each

3 question that's posed and answer that question directly to the best of

4 your ability. If we think that any person is asking you an inappropriate

5 question, then we will intervene. But if we don't intervene, then we

6 simply ask you to answer whatever question is asked. Do you understand

7 that?


9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. The first person to question you then

10 will be on behalf of the Prosecutor, Mr. Hannis.

11 Mr. Hannis.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

14 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hoxha. I understand, sir, that you were born

16 in Gjakova, and you've lived there all your life apart from your time in

17 the military service and four years of university studies; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And could you tell us your ethnicity?

21 A. Albanian.

22 Q. What was your -- what was your previous employment?

23 A. For -- I have worked for 40 years. In the first five years I was

24 a teacher of primary school. For 35 other years I was a teacher of

25 physical training at the high school.

Page 1536

1 Q. Mr. Hoxha, I would like to show you a copy of your statement,

2 which is Exhibit P2230. And I have a hard copy that I could hand to the

3 witness.

4 Mr. Hoxha, do you remember giving -- giving that statement to OTP

5 investigators and verifying it before a court officer prior to this day?

6 A. Yes, I remember.

7 Q. And as I recall, sir, there were a couple of corrections that you

8 noted should be made to -- to the schedule at the end with the list of

9 people who -- who died on the 2nd of April; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. I think it's on page 14 of the e-court. Regarding the individual

12 named Fetije Vejsa, where her age is listed as 80, 8-0, is that correct?

13 A. No, that's not correct. She was 58 to 60. Around this age, not

14 more than 60.

15 Q. And the following page there is -- there is a young -- a young

16 person named Silvana Vejsa. Is that the correct first name?

17 A. Not Silvana, Sihana.

18 Q. Thank you. In connection with that, were there any other

19 corrections?

20 A. For the moment I don't seem to remember anything that needs to be

21 corrected.

22 Q. Other than that, sir, was -- were you satisfied that your

23 statement is accurate and complete?

24 A. Yes, but give me a moment to go back in time. My daughter Flaka,

25 who was killed, was born in 1983. It's written here 15 years. She was 15

Page 1537

1 years. But she had turned 15. She was not yet 16.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. This is a detail that I wanted to point out.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, is there a document making any

6 correction here or are you just dealing with the corrections or --

7 MR. HANNIS: I was just dealing with these corrections,

8 Your Honour.


10 MR. HANNIS: As far as I know there has not been a previous

11 addendum.

12 Q. Mr. Hoxha, in late March, 1999, were you living in Gjakova with

13 your wife and your 15-year-old daughter?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In what part of town did you live in?

16 A. In the northern part of Gjakova.

17 Q. Is there a name for that area of town?

18 A. Abdurrahman Hajdar Pasha, number 2, is the name of the street

19 where I lived.

20 Q. In your statement, sir, in paragraphs 3 to 5 in the Albanian and

21 on page 1 of the both the English and B/C/S at paragraph 3, you describe

22 the night in about -- on about the 27th of March, 1999, when your

23 neighbours Shefqet Pruthi and Avni Ferizi were killed. As to Shefqet, did

24 you actually see him being pursued by his attackers?

25 A. No, I didn't see that, but since there was only a wall separating

Page 1538

1 him from me, his house from mine, I heard cries and shouts, and then

2 afterwards his daughter told me, she had in fact called my daughter, my

3 deceased daughter, telling her that they killed my father, and I saw only

4 the dead body.

5 Q. And although you did not see that, I think you say in your

6 statement that you heard shouts and insults in Serbian as well as a lot of

7 gunshots. You're nodding your head, but we need a verbal answer.

8 A. Yes, that's correct. I heard cries, insults, gunshots, but I

9 didn't see that with my eyes. Later on, I learned what happened to

10 Shefqet and to Avni Ferizi.

11 In the case of Shefqet and Avni Ferizi, maybe his wife, his

12 daughter might testify better than me. In the case of Avni Ferizi,

13 probably his wife and his two sons might have testified better than me. I

14 can tell you only what I heard.

15 Q. I understand. Thank you. In connection with your eyes, I know

16 you're wearing dark glasses in court today. I understand that's because

17 of a medical necessity rather than any kind of fashion statement; is that

18 correct?

19 A. No, it's not because of any fashion. These are prescription

20 glasses, and I can't stand the light. I've been wearing these glasses

21 since 1960. Dr. Cavka in Sarajevo prescribed those to me when I was a

22 student.

23 Q. Thank you. And now after this -- this happened, on paragraph --

24 in paragraph 8 of your statement, in English at page 3, paragraph 4 from

25 the top, in the B/C/S page 3, paragraph 3, you explain that after your

Page 1539

1 neighbours were killed on that night that everyone left that neighbourhood

2 and that your 15-year-old daughter was very scared and upset, and you

3 decided to go and stay with your oldest daughter. What was her name?

4 A. My elder daughter or the one living with me.

5 Q. Your elder daughter?

6 A. My daughter's name was Tringa.

7 Q. And you went to stay with her and her husband. Your son-in-law,

8 what was his name?

9 A. Lulezim Vejsa.

10 Q. So where -- where did they live? Where did you go to stay with

11 them?

12 A. Their house is at a distance of 5, 600 metres from my house in a

13 street called Milosh Gilic. I don't remember the name of their house now.

14 Q. And at Milosh Gilic street -- Gilic? Sorry. You report in your

15 statement that in all there were about 24 or 25 people spending the nights

16 there at the end of March with the women and children in the basement

17 under -- under the shop and the men standing guard in the courtyard or the

18 house; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. You go on to say that the first four nights were okay, but the

21 night of the 1st of April and on into the early morning of April 2nd you

22 describe what you say was the tragedy that happened to your family. Could

23 you tell the Judges briefly what happened that night?

24 A. After the 1st and the 2nd of April, since we didn't have

25 electricity and it was dark all over, panic reigned. And at that moment,

Page 1540

1 we of course didn't look at the watch, but it was sometime after midnight.

2 I was asleep, fully dressed. My son-in-law, Luli, together with his own

3 son-in-law, Behar Haxhiavdija, who was here to testify in the case of

4 Mr. Milosevic, came and woke me up telling me, "Wake up, wake up, because

5 things are not good. It's not an ordinary situation." I woke up, of

6 course, horrified, and my wife, my deceased wife, and both my deceased

7 girls were a little bit further away. Their five children, Luli's sister

8 with three kids, his uncle, Behar Haxhiavdija with his wife and three

9 kids, all of them were staying in the basement.

10 I woke up and went out in the corridor, and at that moment the --

11 someone tried to break in through the yard's door. Outside there was a

12 car parked, and it was difficult for them to open the door, but finally

13 they did open the gate and entered the yard. I can't remember the name --

14 the number, 10 or 15 probably, a group of armed people.

15 At that time when I turned my back -- my head back, my son-in-law

16 and his own son-in-law - that is the son-in-law of my son-in-law - I saw

17 that they had disappeared. They were no longer there. Then I was

18 hesitating as to what to do. Since my wife had told me, and also Luli's

19 mother, and another woman, an old woman, a neighbour of ours had told

20 us, "If something goes wrong you males should leave, because we are sure

21 nothing wrong is going to happen to us females."

22 At that moment, I decided to go back. I left the house and passed

23 toward three walls and went to another house without knowing where --

24 whose house that was. I stayed there between two walls, in a crevice, so

25 to say, until dawn.

Page 1541

1 Q. Let me stop you there for a second. And during that time you

2 stayed there from after midnight --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


5 Q. From that time you stayed there from -- after midnight until dawn,

6 what were you able to see or hear from the spot where you were?

7 A. I couldn't see anything because I was between walls, but I could

8 hear voices, shots, cries, words, "Don't kill me, don't will me," which

9 really made us feel very distressed. And the -- also the children. Even

10 though they were in the basement and I couldn't communicate with them, and

11 the next day I found them dead.

12 Q. During that time you were -- you were between the two walls --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. HANNIS: Sorry.

15 Q. During this time you were between the two walls and you heard

16 voices, I think you said, "Don't kill me," what language were those words

17 spoken in?

18 A. In Albanian.

19 Q. I want next to show you a --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the --


22 Q. I'd like to show you a photograph.

23 MR. HANNIS: If we could bring up Exhibit P276.

24 Q. Mr. Hoxha, there should be a photograph appearing on your monitor

25 shortly. I don't know if you can see that. Can you recognise what's

Page 1542

1 shown in that photograph?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What area is that?

4 A. In this corner here is the store of my son-in-law in whose

5 basement those people I mentioned, my wife, my children, their children,

6 were staying.

7 Q. Let me stop you there. If I can have the usher help you. We've

8 got a -- we've got a pen there which you can use to mark on the -- on this

9 monitor in front of you. If you can draw a circle around the shop or the

10 house of your son-in-law's that you're talking about. You can just touch

11 the screen with the pen and draw a circle.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And is that the place where the women and children were staying in

14 the basement?

15 A. Yes. This is the store I mentioned in whose basement all the

16 people I mentioned earlier were taking shelter. In the back --

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. -- Is the house where I was hiding, and my son-in-law and his own

19 son-in-law.

20 Q. And can -- I don't know, does it show on this photograph the area

21 where you were hiding when you went -- went away from the house that

22 night?

23 A. Approximately it is somewhere here. I left from this point and I

24 followed this line. Somewhere here, I think it is.

25 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I think it would be proper if it was further

Page 1543

1 augmented with some numbers, 1, 2, 3, as in other exhibits, so one knows

2 what it is meant for.


4 Q. Mr. Hoxha, could you first of all put a 1 inside the circle that

5 you've indicated was the shop.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. And if you could draw a small circle in which you indicated you

8 were hiding until dawn, and write the number 2 in there.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Okay. Mr. Hoxha. In case I misunderstood you, where you've

11 marked a circle now was -- the area that I thought you had testified to

12 was being the home, the home next to the shop. Am I wrong about that?

13 A. Near number 2 is the house. Now it's ruined because it was

14 burned, but it was at the time.

15 Q. And could you draw another circle in the spot where you were

16 hiding until dawn and put the number 3 in that circle.

17 A. 1 and 2 -- number 1 is 100 per cent accurate. Number 2 is almost

18 100 per cent accurate. Whereas the place I was hiding, I'm not 100 per

19 cent certain of the location. Maybe 1 metre more, 1 metre less.

20 Q. But with that explanation, that's fine. Thank you.

21 In -- in that same paragraph in your statement that we were

22 referring to, you mentioned that then when dawn came you went back to your

23 son-in-law's house and discovered -- well, what did you see or what did

24 you find when you returned there?

25 A. Yes, I may describe that. At dawn, when I emerged from between

Page 1544

1 those two walls, I came onto the courtyard of a house which even today I

2 do not know whose was it, whose it was. And then in -- in a nearby house

3 I saw a person whom I know. He's from Gjakova. And he asked me, "What do

4 you want here?" When he saw me there. And I explained that in the evening

5 I was at Tringa's house, but at about midnight something forced us to

6 leave because the forces entered the courtyard of my son-in-law, and I

7 jump the two walls and I hid between the two walls.

8 And I went together with him to the place where I was initially,

9 and hoping that we'd find everybody else alive, my wife and the rest. I

10 went directly to the basement where all the people were sheltered. I saw

11 no one there. I saw that only smoke was coming out of there. I returned,

12 and as I was returning, behind the shop there was a small house. The uncle

13 of my son-in-law lived there, and unfortunately that man was not normal.

14 And I saw his body charred. When I saw his body that was charred, I

15 feared the worst for my family and the rest.

16 Together with my neighbour, we went to our place and we saw that

17 it was completely burned and ruined. The man who was with me, he said at

18 one point that he saw a piece of flesh from a body, and at that moment we

19 were convinced that a tragedy, unprecedented tragedy had happened.

20 Q. May I stop you there, Mr. Hoxha.

21 A. That moment Luli and Behar came there.

22 Q. Did you ever see your wife or daughters alive again?

23 I understand that shortly after that you talked with a young boy

24 who had been in the basement.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: There was no answer to your question, Mr. Hannis.

Page 1545

1 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I heard an answer, but I see it's not in

2 the transcript.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear it.


5 Q. Your answer didn't come out. Did you ever see your wife and

6 daughters again? I'm sorry to ask you again.

7 A. No, I did not see them it alive. I wanted to discover what

8 happened. And all this extraordinary tragedy, there is one thing which is

9 still haunting me, because I haven't found out what happened, and -- and I

10 did not want to see them in the condition they were after they were

11 massacred, because I now only preserve the best memories from when they

12 were alive.

13 Q. I want to ask you a question about that. You didn't later that

14 day talk to a young boy who had been in the basement but who had survived.

15 Don't mention his name, please. We're -- he's -- he has protective

16 measures, and we will refer to him as K13. Do you know who I mean, the

17 young boy who survived?

18 A. Yes, I know who you are talking about.

19 Q. Did you have a chance to talk with him afterwards about what had

20 happened in the basement that night?

21 A. Yes, I spoke with him.

22 Q. Briefly, what did he tell you?

23 A. When we found that there was an extraordinary tragedy that

24 happened there, together with Behar I went on this other side to -- to the

25 house of the grandfather of K13. There I met the young man, the boy, who

Page 1546

1 at the time was 11. At the time, his father joined. He came in.

2 This boy, in tragic moments, in critical moments, he was present

3 where all the tragedy took place. When all these people were being

4 executed, he says that, "The first, it was my daughter Flaka who was

5 killed."

6 K13, as a wise boy, for a moment he leaned against Manushen Duqi

7 [phoen], who was another of the executed, and she was quite corpulent, and

8 he lied as if dead, although he was wounded. I don't quite remember

9 whether it was on his left or right arm. At the moment it was -- when

10 everyone was executed, with the exception of K13, someone said, "Job

11 done," and they left. At that point, they set the house alight. And

12 when -- when the fire was taking over, they left. And when they left, K13

13 jumped out of one window and went to the house of his grandfather. And

14 when I met him, he described all that had happened in detail, which to

15 this day I do not want to believe what has happened.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, the name appears in the statement we

17 have.

18 MR. HANNIS: It does, Your Honour. It's been --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And the statement will be public.

20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we would -- we anticipate having this

21 witness testify later. There's a possibility that he may not require

22 these measures any more. If he does, what I would propose to do is -- is

23 provide a substituted page with his name redacted or blacked out where it

24 appears in the statement.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: But as of what date will this statement become

Page 1547

1 public?

2 MR. HANNIS: I suppose that might be today, in which case I should

3 provide a redacted page before the end of the day. May I consult with

4 my -- may I consult?

5 [Prosecution consult]

6 MR. HANNIS: For the moment, Your Honour, perhaps I could request

7 that we could tender this statement under seal and we'll provide a

8 redacted copy later today or tomorrow -- on Monday.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Is it only -- there's more than one

10 reference.

11 MR. HANNIS: There is more than one reference.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: The whole package, since it's one exhibit, will be

13 held under seal until you tender the redacted version of the statement.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Hoxha, then I want to --

16 A. A small correction, please. May I?

17 Q. Yes.


19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that the name on the screen,

20 my name appears as Hannis. My name is Hani.

21 MR. HANNIS: And my name is Hannis. I think that's where it

22 happened, Mr. Hoxha.

23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: These are references to the Prosecutor, Mr. Hannis.


Page 1548

1 Q. I apologise, Mr. Hoxha.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Your name on the transcript, that you're obviously

3 able to read in English, is "The witness,".

4 MR. HANNIS: Or oftentimes it appears as just as just A for

5 answer.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

7 MR. HANNIS: No problem.

8 Q. Mr. Hoxha, now I want to go to paragraphs 15 through 17 in the

9 Albanian, and it starts at the bottom of page 4 in both the English and

10 B/C/S. You tell us how you joined a large, long convoy of people leaving

11 town that next day. Is that correct? Was that the following day or that

12 same -- same day?

13 A. I joined the convoy of people on the 2nd of April at about 8.00 in

14 the morning.

15 Q. And where was this convoy going?

16 A. Straight to Albania.

17 Q. In paragraph 16 of your statement, you describe how at the town

18 exit there were MUP soldiers -- or MUP policemen who were directing people

19 to turn in their identity documents and put them in a large box there.

20 Can you tell us how big a box this was?

21 A. When we went out onto this road, we were walking towards the

22 centre of the city to the old part of the city that was very beautiful,

23 and there I saw that my city was burned, that Carsija was entirely burned.

24 There we were walking over electric cables. We were walking over the

25 waters which were coming out of the shops, and we could only see

Page 1549

1 burned-out things.

2 As we were leaving the city between Gjakova and the village of

3 Brekoc there was a police checkpoint. There was a table and a big case

4 where all the ID documents were thrown.

5 Me personally, when they asked me for my ID, I -- I handed that to

6 them and they took it aside and they put it in the box. Three or four

7 kilometres after that, we were asked to --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Please stop. You were only asked one thing. We

9 have all this in writing. All you were asked was how big was the box.

10 Now, can you tell us that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One by one metres. A cubic metre.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


14 Q. Could you see how many documents were in the box? Was it 10? Was

15 it a hundred? Any idea?

16 A. Sir, at -- at that moment I had lost my daughters and my wife, and

17 I wasn't focused on such detail. And I wouldn't wish anyone to have to go

18 through that. But up until the time that I was there, there were probably

19 3, 400.

20 Q. I understand. Did the policemen who said that the documents

21 should be turned in say why?

22 A. No. They only asked us to hand in the documents and to proceed.

23 Q. And in your statement, I think you indicate further along when you

24 got closer to the border with Albania you and others were again requested

25 to turn in ID documents. Is that correct?

Page 1550

1 A. They probably thought that they had not collected our IDs as we

2 exited the town. And further away there was another checkpoint, and they

3 asked everyone to go through the same procedure. But I told them that I

4 had no ID on me because I had turned it in to a previous checkpoint.

5 Q. Do you recall who was manning that second checkpoint? Was it

6 soldiers? Was it police? Was it civilians?

7 A. In Kosovo you mean?

8 Q. Yes, before you got to Albania.

9 A. It was only policemen. In that particular checkpoint, it was only

10 policemen. But in that meadow where we stayed for a while, there were

11 soldiers who were everywhere around us, and there were thousands of people

12 who were asked to stop there in that meadow, and there were soldiers

13 around us who did not allow the civilians to move from the place, from the

14 meadow.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hoxha, there's only one other question that I want

16 to ask you in light of something that came up recently. You were a

17 teacher for 40 years?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Did you teach in Gjakova?

20 A. The last 35 years in Gjakova. The first five years, two years in

21 Rahovec, near Gjakova, and three other years in a village.

22 Q. We've heard some evidence about the schools in Gjakova in 1999.

23 Were the Albanian high school students able to attend school in Gjakova,

24 if you know?

25 A. The high school students, and I was deputy director of one of the

Page 1551

1 high schools, we could -- we couldn't teach the -- the students in the

2 school premises, in the proper school premises, but we taught them in

3 mosques and houses and elsewhere because we could not do that. And in my

4 city, only 2 per cent were non-Albanians. It was between 1991 and 1995.

5 We were not allowed to get into the proper premises of high schools.

6 Q. And do you know what happened between 1995 and 1999 with regard to

7 the schools in Gjakova?

8 A. The situation was like this between 1991 and 1999. We were not

9 even paid. In the last eight years, I got 40 Deutschmarks, which were

10 coming from the contribution of the Albanian population who contributed by

11 10, 15 Deutschmarks. And in the last eight years, I -- I got about 40

12 Deutschmarks a month.

13 Q. And why were you not allowed to teach in the proper school

14 premises?

15 A. It's -- these gentlemen on -- in this room will know better that,

16 the answer to this question.

17 Q. Can you explain any further? What was your understanding about

18 why you weren't allowed to?

19 A. The reason why we were not allowed, I think these people know

20 better than -- better than myself, but they probably wanted us to use our

21 own programmes. There were differences between the programmes they had

22 and ours, but the main thing is that they did not allow us to proceed, to

23 teach normally.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I have no other questions. I would

25 like to tender his statement and also the photograph that's been marked.

Page 1552

1 If that can be given a number.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. It will be IC7, is it?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit IC7.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, it's P2230, and that's tendered under seal.

5 MR. HANNIS: And I would also like to tender the transcript from

6 Milosevic which is P2231.


8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. O'Sullivan.

10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We will proceed in this order for

11 cross-examination General Lukic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Milutinovic,

12 Mr. Sainovic, General Lazarevic, and General Pavkovic.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Ivetic.

15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hoxha. My name is Dragan Ivetic, and I am one

18 of the attorneys representing Mr. Sreten Lukic, together with my

19 colleagues, Mr. Branko Lukic and Mr. Ozren Ogrizovic. I intend to ask you

20 a few questions this afternoon -- to clean up -- to clear up a few areas

21 of your testimony. So please bear with me. I'll try to be as brief and

22 concise as possible.

23 Now first of all, sir, when talking about the tragic deaths of

24 Mr. Pruthi and Ferizi, and I apologise if my pronunciation is inaccurate.

25 You said that the spouses of these gentleman would know better than you

Page 1553

1 what happened. Is it -- I want to verify that it's correct that you are

2 not a personal eyewitness to the tragic deaths of these individuals that

3 you testified about in your direct examination. Is that correct?

4 A. I did not witness their execution, but Avni Ferizi is a best

5 friend of mine. He graduated from the university in Belgrade. He -- and

6 he's my best friend. He was my best friend. And I -- I have seen his

7 body until it was buried. I cannot say here that I saw when -- I saw it

8 when they were being executed. It was the wife of Avni and the wife of

9 Shefqet who witnessed the execution, and they can testify about that.

10 Q. And, sir, as far as the attackers or the perpetrators of these

11 tragedies against -- the killing of these two individuals is it accurate

12 to state, as you set forth in your statement, that you could not identify

13 or distinguish the uniforms being worn by these individuals?

14 A. The night when Shefqet and Avni were executed?

15 Q. Yes, sir.

16 A. I'm very clear. When Avni and Shefqet were executed, I didn't see

17 the people who did that. The next day, before I took Shefqet and Avni to

18 be buried, the wife of Shefqet and the wife of Avni, they went to the

19 police, because when -- when I came close to the neighbour of Shefqet, and

20 I asked them, "Why didn't you put the bodies inside?" They said

21 probably --

22 Q. It would be easier if we do it in question and answer. That way

23 we can at least get through the statement and complete your testimony.

24 Now --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: One of the problems here, though, is that both the

Page 1554

1 questions you've asked so far are questions which are clearly answered

2 already, and one has to wonder what the purpose of asking for confirmation

3 of something which is clear. And it's not surprising that the witness

4 feels the need to expand upon it. He must think you're asking him

5 something else.

6 MR. IVETIC: I was just trying to confirm some things that to me

7 were not clear from the transcript, Your Honour, although they appeared

8 clear in the statement. I just wanted to make sure that the statement was

9 accurate.

10 Q. Now, with respect to the -- to the -- to the individuals that

11 broke into your courtyard, would it be also accurate to state that you did

12 not -- could not identify the uniforms that these individuals were wearing

13 as well?

14 A. In my courtyard nobody entered.

15 Q. All right. Let's move on to another topic, sir. You started

16 talking about how the spouses of Mr. Pruthi and Mr. Ferizi went to the

17 police. Now, you did not accompany them on that occasion, is that

18 accurate?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And you, sir, do not know whether they reported to the SUP, that

21 is the police station in Djakovica, or whether they reported to the local

22 security organs; is that correct?

23 A. No. They went to the police, and they came back, and they told me

24 that, "We went to the police to report the killings, and we are waiting

25 for them to come." And they stayed in the courtyard of Avni Ferizi

Page 1555

1 together with the brothers of Avni Ferizi. In the meantime, the police

2 turned up, and they -- and they had a quick look at the body of Avni

3 Ferizi and they left. This is what I know about this.

4 Q. Sir, and now do you know whether the regular police or the local

5 security carried out this investigation into the death of the individual?

6 A. The regular police with flak jackets.

7 Q. Okay. And at -- at the time in question, isn't accurate to state

8 that there was also a local security force in the Djakovica municipality?

9 A. There was a very small group, but no one of the members was from

10 Gjakova. As far as I know, no one from -- was from Gjakova. They were

11 from the surroundings. Seven, eight, to ten people altogether.

12 All my life I've been a happy, a friendly, a sociable person, and

13 I -- I don't know anything about police matters. I know that my daughter,

14 she learned Serbo-Croat through television.

15 Q. Okay. Now, at -- in your statement given to the Office of the

16 Prosecutor, in the English version at page 4, paragraph 7, in the B/C/S,

17 page 4, paragraph 7, in the Albanian, page 5 paragraph 7. In the middle

18 of that paragraph, at least on the English version, you talk about the --

19 this local police force and say that, "However, this local police unit

20 consisted only of local Serbs who spoke Albanian well."

21 Now, I have a question to ask you about this local security force,

22 the local police force as you call it, and I'm going to ask you if you

23 know that in fact this local security was set up by the municipality of

24 Djakovica rather than by the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Do you have

25 that knowledge?

Page 1556

1 A. No, I don't know who set that up. It was not only the Territorial

2 Defence of Gjakova. They consisted not only of Serbs but also a very

3 small number of Albanians. I must say this as well: According to all

4 data, there was no -- not a single Serb who lived in Gjakova who was not

5 armed.

6 Q. Now, sir, just for clarification, you started talking about the

7 Territorial Defence. I'm focusing on this local -- what you have called

8 the local police unit, which I referred to as local security, and in your

9 statement this section that I've just cited, you indicated that this unit

10 consisted only of local Serbs. Is that still your testimony, or is this

11 part that you've just testified to relating to this local police?

12 A. The so-called local police force existed, and there was some

13 Albanians who were part of it. I don't know exactly what number it was.

14 I'm not interested in that.

15 I am here to testify about what I have experienced in my family,

16 the loss of my wife and two daughters. They -- I have also said that in

17 another interview with the Albanian television that they have burned my

18 house, which -- which I had built with my own efforts for 40 years. It

19 meant that I gave. My wife was killed on the 10th of May 1999. My house

20 was set on fire, and within that statement I will answer anything you ask

21 me. Whatever I'm saying here, I would be the happiest man alive if it

22 were not true.

23 Q. I understand that, sir, and I appreciate that. I'm just trying to

24 obtain information from you relative to the statement that you gave to the

25 Office of the Prosecutor, which -- which is relevant to the proceedings in

Page 1557

1 this matter.

2 Now, Mr. Hoxha, do you in fact know or -- strike that. Would you

3 be surprised to learn that the overwhelming number of these local security

4 units in Djakovica, approximately 40 out of 53 members, were actually

5 ethnic Albanians or other non-Serbs?

6 A. I do not believe this comment. And even if -- even if there was a

7 number of Albanians in this force, they were controlled and collaborating

8 with the Serbs and were just implementing orders coming from above.

9 Q. Now, sir, you've mentioned that -- that there -- these Albanians

10 would be collaborators with the Serbs. Would it be accurate to state then

11 that there was an element of the ethnic Albanian population in -- within

12 the entire municipality of Djakovica that was loyal or supportive of the

13 Serbian state authorities?

14 A. I -- I don't know about these things. I know that many policemen,

15 Albanians who were part of the regular police force, later on they -- they

16 left the force because they were not willing to obey orders which would be

17 against their own fellow citizens.

18 Q. Okay. Sir, within the various communities of the Djakovica

19 municipality, isn't it a fact that there was some animosity towards --

20 strike that, some animosity between the part of the Albanian community

21 that was loyal and supportive of the Serbian authorities and the remainder

22 of the Albanian community in Djakovica? And I would reference you to the

23 time period of early 1999, that is to say prior to April of 1999.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I guess I'm going to object. I don't

25 think we've established yet that there was some portion that was loyal, at

Page 1558

1 least from this witness.

2 MR. IVETIC: I think we have, Your Honour. I think he testified

3 that -- I'll scroll back on my transcript here, but he talked about the

4 so-called local police force and that there were some Albanians who were

5 part of it, and I believe then afterwards he talked about how they --

6 these were collaborators with the -- with the state. So I believe that --

7 at least that establishes that. I'm sure the witness can clarify if

8 there's --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll allow the question, Mr. Ivetic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to clarify. This is a

11 question --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, please, Mr. Hoxha. Just a moment.

13 Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry to have interrupted you, Mr. Hoxha. Please

16 carry on with your answer. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is nothing to clarify with

18 respect to this question. I don't want to sound brutal and severe, but I

19 regard it as a kind of provocation or a provocative question, because I'm

20 not the person to answer to this question.


22 Q. Well, I apologise if you view it as provocative. It was not meant

23 in that manner, sir. I'm just trying to elicit information relative to

24 the region that you resided in that may be probative and relevant to these

25 proceedings.

Page 1559

1 Now, sir, you -- in your statement, I believe you stated that you

2 had seen this local -- you call it local police. I'll call them local

3 security. Isn't it a fact that this local security had different uniforms

4 from the police based on your knowledge of having seen them prior to the

5 NATO bombing?

6 A. As they had different uniforms from the ordinary police, but I

7 don't think they had good intentions towards us because they have put us

8 to torch. They have harassed my students. They have beaten them. They

9 have not allowed them to go to the village. These are unpleasant things.

10 So there is no way I can see them as police who protected the integrity of

11 ordinary citizens.

12 Q. And now you're talking about the local security forces. Is that

13 accurate?

14 A. The so-called local police.

15 Q. And, sir --

16 A. They didn't let us go and buy bread -- prevented from going out to

17 buy bread.

18 Q. Now, sir, in your statement, in the Albanian it's page 7,

19 paragraph 2 from the top, in English page 5, the third paragraph from the

20 top, and in B/C/S, page 5, the third paragraph from the top. In the

21 middle of that paragraph sir, you state and I'll quote the English

22 version "When the Serbs were killing people in my town, Gjakova, and

23 burning houses, they were saying: 'This is because of NATO.'"

24 Now, the question I want to ask you, sir, is with respect to

25 this -- with respect to this particular recitation, this is not something

Page 1560

1 that you were an eyewitness to, is it?

2 A. I haven't said this in my statement. Maybe it's the translator

3 who hasn't put it right, but this was said by the wives of Avni Ferizi and

4 Shefqet Pruthi after they returned from the police where they informed

5 them of the murder of their husbands, because the police told them, "NATO

6 killed your husbands." One of them said, "It was not NATO who killed my

7 husband. It was you." This is what I have cited. But not at a single

8 moment have I stated this as if I myself had said this.

9 Q. Now, sir, are you on the seventh page of your statement, the

10 second paragraph from the top in the Albanian version? Is that the

11 section that you are looking at that I was referring to? Are you telling

12 us that those are not the words that you stated to the Prosecutor during

13 this interview dated -- now, my copy says 1939. That's obviously a

14 typographical error.

15 A. Which paragraph was it, sir?

16 Q. The Albanian version, it's page 7, and I believe it's the second

17 paragraph from the top, and at least in the English version the text

18 appears in the middle of that paragraph. I don't know where it appears in

19 the Albanian exactly apart from identifying the paragraphs. Perhaps

20 Mr. Hannis can assist maybe.

21 MR. HANNIS: If we could read the first line of the paragraph.

22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, the first line of the paragraph in Albanian is,

23 and I apologise for my pronunciation: "Ulagava Nedja Shiptar Raskindia

24 Kolonus ..." [phoen] And the section that I'm quoting comes in one, two,

25 three -- towards the end of the fourth line of the Albanian version of the

Page 1561

1 statement.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On page 7 in my version I can't find

3 it. But I know of that situation.

4 MR. HANNIS: I think he has the -- he has the 92 bis package which

5 has the attestation on the front. I think it's the paragraph right before

6 he starts listing the names of all the victims. That will help him find

7 it.


9 Q. That is correct. It is the paragraph just before you list the

10 names of the victims of the tragedy.

11 MR. HANNIS: The next to the last page.

12 MR. IVETIC: On the English version it's page 5, paragraph 3 from

13 the top which is towards the second half of the page.

14 MR. HANNIS: May I step over and assist, Your Honour?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


18 Q. Does that yes mean that you do recall now having stated these

19 words to the Prosecutor during the course of your interview?

20 A. No. I meant that you go on with your question.

21 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you earlier stated that you did not -- you did

22 not believe that you had made these statements in your interview. Seeing

23 them recorded here at this section, do you now recall whether in fact you

24 uttered these words to the Prosecutor during the course of your interview?

25 That is to say, is this part of the statement accurately reflecting what

Page 1562

1 you recall telling the Prosecutor on this topic?

2 A. What is written in Albanian is what I have said, and I abide by

3 that.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, I return to my original question.

5 These words that you uttered, you were not an actual eyewitness to - let's

6 break it down - Serbs killing people in your town, were you?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. And further, you were not an eyewitness to the other things that

9 are listed in this sentence that we talked about. Is that accurate as

10 well?

11 A. What do you exactly mean, sir?

12 Q. Well, the burning houses and saying, "This is because of NATO."

13 I'll just limit it to that.

14 A. These are words which we have heard through television, through

15 people speaking to each other. It was a very widespread idea that the

16 forces that committed these crimes alleged that they did it because "you

17 wanted NATO to come, and that's why you are suffering now."

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. I think it's clear now. Now, sir, you

19 testified that as you exited the city of Djakovica there were police

20 officers at a checkpoint. Did you recognise any of the police officers,

21 their identities?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 MR. IVETIC: I don't think I have any further questions for this

24 witness, Your Honour.

25 Thank you, very much, Mr. Hoxha, for your time.

Page 1563

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 Mr. Sepenuk.

3 MR. SEPENUK: Yes. No questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Mr. O'Sullivan.

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no questions.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan. Mr. Fila.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must disappoint you,

11 but I have only a couple of questions.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hoxha, my name is Mihajlo Bakrac, I am one of

14 the people defending General Lazarevic, and I have just a couple of

15 questions for you to clarify some things that arose during my learned

16 friend, Mr. Ivetic's cross-examination.

17 As far as I understood your statement and you were testimony

18 today, you said that the police on the other, the send checkpoint before

19 the border, asked to see your documents, your ID; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you told them that you had already given those papers at the

22 first checkpoint; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did they try to verify that in any way? Did they try to search

25 you?

Page 1564

1 A. When I was going to Albania, by pure chance in another pocket I

2 found my driver's licence, and I even have it up to this date.

3 Q. Therefore, no one tried to verify that and you were not searched;

4 is that correct?

5 A. No. No. They didn't have time because there were thousands of

6 people waiting there. And if they were to each of us personally, it would

7 have taken months. They didn't have the time. There was a column of

8 about 10 or 15.000 people. It would have taken a week for them to do

9 that.

10 Q. Therefore, it suffice -- you said you simply turned over your

11 documents even if it wasn't true.

12 A. But I did turn them over.

13 Q. But I hope you will agree with me that you could have told them

14 that you had turned the documents over and they still wouldn't check that.

15 MR. HANNIS: I object. That calls for speculation on his part.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I withdraw the question, and I have

17 no further questions.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I need to clarify.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

20 Mr. Aleksic.

21 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No

22 questions for this witness.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Mr. Hannis.

25 MR. HANNIS: Nothing further from me, Your Honour.

Page 1565

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Hoxha, that completes your evidence.

2 Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to

3 leave.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, my thanks to everyone for using every effort

6 to complete these two witnesses today. That brings us the proceedings for

7 the week to a close. We will resume on Monday. The sitting on Monday

8 will be at 9.00 and will be a normal morning session finishing at 1.45 and

9 divided by two short breaks of about 20 minutes, one at 10.30 and the

10 other one about 12.20. The rest of next week the sittings will be in the

11 afternoon, from 1.45 -- oh, sorry, from 2.15, and on a similar basis.

12 Next week sometime we will issue a schedule setting out the

13 sitting arrangements for a longer period insofar as we can and showing

14 when there will be any interruptions in the proceedings as well so that we

15 give as much notice as possible to enable you to make use of any gaps and

16 also to plan your administrative arrangements around the sittings.

17 So I hope everyone has as pleasant a weekend as possible in the

18 circumstances, and I will see you all again on Monday at 9.00.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.17 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day

21 of August, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.