Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3513

1 Tuesday, 19 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yesterday we left to reflect on the issue which was

6 debated before us and on which we subsequently received written

7 submissions, and following lengthy deliberations on the matter, the Trial

8 Chamber has decided unanimously to refuse to admit the evidence of the

9 Witness K-82. The reasons for that determination will be explained in a

10 written decision which will be published as soon as possible and certainly

11 before the end of next week.

12 Now, Mr. Stamp, who is the next witness?

13 MR. STAMP: The next witness -- [Microphone not activated].

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. STAMP: -- Isa Raka who will be taken by Ms. Daniela Kravetz,

16 who is now in court.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And this witness gives evidence in what form?

18 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, we had initially submitted this

19 witness's evidence pursuant to 92 bis (B). When he was here in proofing

20 some weeks ago, he provided additional information, and we have now

21 prepared an 89(F) statement which was disclosed to the Defence on

22 8 September. So we would like to proceed with this witness today pursuant

23 to 89(F).

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Let's have the witness brought in,

25 please.

Page 3514

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, while this witness is brought in, I

2 would like to point out that there are two minor typos in this witness's

3 89(F) statement. There is incorrect numbering of the paragraphs. The

4 paragraph numbering jumps from number 15 to 17. There is no paragraph 16

5 missing; it's just been incorrectly numbered.


7 MS. KRAVETZ: And also I presume in the English version you would

8 have noted that the witness's gender has been incorrectly noted as well.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. And just I think for completeness, give

10 us, please, the paragraphs of the indictment to which this evidence

11 relates.

12 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes. The evidence of this witness primarily refers

13 to paragraph 72(k), 73, 75(k) and paragraph 76 and 77. He speaks about

14 events that took place in the municipality of Kacanik.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Raka.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you now please make the solemn declaration to

20 tell the truth, by reading aloud the document which will be placed before

21 you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 3515

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

2 Mr. Raka, we have before us a written statement of your evidence.

3 The purpose of you being here today is so that questions can be asked,

4 some of them to clarify, some to add to, and others to challenge what is

5 already in your statement. Please remember we have this statement before

6 us, we've all read it, and therefore the important thing is to concentrate

7 on the particular point that is raised with you in each question. Listen

8 carefully to each question and try to confine your answer to the

9 particular point that is raised with you in that question. The first

10 person to ask questions of you will be for the Prosecution, Ms. Kravetz.

11 Ms. Kravetz.

12 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

14 Q. Witness, please state your full name for the record?

15 A. Isa Raka.

16 Q. I understand from your statement that you were born in the

17 village -- in the town of Kacanik?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And is it where you have been living all your life?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Raka, in November of 1999, did you provide a statement to

22 representatives of the Office of the Prosecution?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And have you recently had the chance to go over this statement

25 with representatives of the OTP?

Page 3516

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In the course of doing so, did you provide additional information

3 and clarify some aspects of your statement?

4 A. Yes. Some minor things.

5 MS. KRAVETZ: Could the witness please be provided a hard copy of

6 his statement?

7 Q. Mr. Raka, the statement before you is in English. I understand

8 you speak a little English. I would just like you to look at it and tell

9 me if you recognise the statement.

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And do you recognise your signature on this statement?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Was this statement read back to you in Albanian by an interpreter?

14 A. Yes, it was.

15 Q. And are you satisfied that what was read out to you properly and

16 accurately reflects the changes you wanted to make to your previous

17 statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Mr. Raka, does this statement accurately reflect to the best

20 of your knowledge and recollection the truth of the events that are

21 described in the statement?

22 A. Yes. To my knowledge and conviction, yes.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: I would like at this time to tender the statement.

24 It's Exhibit P2301.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 3517


2 Q. Mr. Raka, it has been explained to you here, this statement is in

3 evidence before the Court. I would like to ask you some questions and

4 briefly go over some aspects of this statement with you.

5 Yes, in paragraph 8 of your statement, you describe that between

6 the 24th and 27th of March, there was -- the police in Kacanik began

7 shooting from the police station. Is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Is this something that you were personally able to observe?

10 A. I didn't see that with my own eyes but we heard the shots coming

11 from the police station.

12 Q. You heard the shots coming from the police station? From where?

13 Where were you at the time?

14 A. We could hear them from our house. From the house of my uncle,

15 actually.

16 Q. And during these days from the 24th to the 27th of March, how

17 frequently would you hear this shooting from the police station?

18 A. Very frequently, especially during the night. They were

19 continuous during night.

20 Q. And what did you and your family do when you realised this was

21 happening in the town, this shooting was going on?

22 A. During the day, we stayed at home. At night we went to stay with

23 my uncle's people.

24 Q. And where was your uncle's house located in relation to your

25 house?

Page 3518

1 A. His house is 100 metres away, as a crow flies, maximum 150.

2 Q. Okay. Mr. Raka, in paragraph 11 of your statement you state that

3 early on 27 March, you saw firing with a rocket launcher against the house

4 of Shaip Dema. Excuse my pronunciation; I am not sure it's correct.

5 A. Yes, that's correct. And you pronounced the name correctly.

6 Q. From where were you able to observe this firing?

7 A. I saw it from my own house.

8 Q. And from which direction was the firing coming?

9 A. The shooting was coming from the police station.

10 Q. And do you recall approximately how many rounds were fired against

11 the house of Shaip Dema?

12 A. Six times.

13 Q. Where was the house of Shaip Dema located in relation to your

14 house? Was it in your same neighbourhood?

15 A. No. It is in Bob village, but the Bob village is across the place

16 where my house is situated.

17 Q. What do you mean that it's across the place where your house is

18 situated?

19 A. I mean that it is very easily for me from my house to see what's

20 going on in the Bob village.

21 Q. Okay. And who was occupying the house of Shaip Dema prior to this

22 date when the firing started?

23 A. Before this date when -- before the firing started, it was the

24 OSCE that was stationed there.

25 Q. Mr. Raka, you told us that you were able to see this shooting on

Page 3519

1 the morning of 27 March. Did you at any time that morning leave your

2 house?

3 A. No. We did not leave the house that morning. In the morning, we

4 returned home. As I said, during the night we went to my uncle's house.

5 Q. And on 27 March, you were at your home. Did you at any time maybe

6 later during the day visit one of your neighbours?

7 A. Yes. I visited the house of Jakup Jakupi.

8 Q. While you were at your neighbour's house, were you able to observe

9 anything unusual happening in Kacanik?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. What were you able to observe happening?

12 A. I saw two military jeeps and a Niva car entering the lime factory.

13 Q. You say you saw two military jeeps entering the lime factory.

14 Where was the lime factory located in relation to your house?

15 A. The lime factory is on the other side of the Lepence village --

16 river, correction. It's about 100 metres away from where my house is.

17 Q. So it's directly opposite the river from your house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You stated that you saw two jeeps arriving to the lime factory.

20 And who was in those jeeps?

21 A. In the jeeps were about 20 policemen wearing green -- blue,

22 correction, camouflage uniforms and two were wearing green camouflage

23 uniforms.

24 Q. And when the policemen arrived to the lime factory were you able

25 to observe what they did there?

Page 3520

1 A. They got off the jeeps and one of them, whom I took to be Lubisha

2 and I was certain it was him, they were making signs with their hands as

3 if ordering people to do something, ordering their policemen to do

4 something.

5 Q. You mention a man called Lubisha. Who was Lubisha? What position

6 did he occupy?

7 A. From the information I received, he was deputy commander, I think,

8 of the police station.

9 Q. Did you know him prior to this date? Had you seen him on any

10 other occasion?

11 A. Yes. Yes. I knew him.

12 Q. How did you know him?

13 A. I knew him because he lived in the same neighbourhood with me,

14 some 100 metres away from my house.

15 Q. So you said you saw Lubisha giving orders to the other policemen.

16 What exactly were the other policemen doing at the factory?

17 A. Policemen, some of them were crawling, some were walking, towards

18 the factory. They circled round the factory and then they took up

19 positions there.

20 Q. Was the factory empty at the time? Was it closed?

21 A. Yes. There were only the guards.

22 Q. And what happened after the policemen took positions in the

23 factory? What were you able to observe happen?

24 A. Once they took up their positions, they started to fire randomly.

25 Q. You say they were firing. Do you know in which direction they

Page 3521

1 were firing?

2 A. Yes. They fired in the direction of the houses.

3 Q. When you say fire in the direction of the houses, you mean the

4 houses in your area of town?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was there anyone firing from your area of town towards the

7 factory?

8 A. No.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I would like to show the witness some

10 photographs at this stage. This is Exhibit 2310. These photographs are

11 not on our exhibit list. They were provided by the witness to the

12 Prosecution, and I would like to apply to have these photographs added and

13 to be allowed to show them to the witness.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any objection to that?

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. By your leave, the

16 aforementioned photographs were not on the exhibit list that accompanied

17 the testimony of this witness.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we've been told by Ms. Kravetz that they were

19 not on the exhibit list, which is I presume is the 65 ter list.

20 MS. KRAVETZ: They were included in the updated version of the

21 witness's notification.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And the explanation is that he provided them to the

23 Prosecution. So that's been conceded. So you object to them being

24 produced, do you?

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I understood, Your Honour. But up

Page 3522

1 until this moment, we haven't had an opportunity that this will be

2 tendered.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you receive a copy of them?

4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

5 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I understand the Defence has been

6 provided copies. They were provided copies last week, and in the updated

7 notification, which was filed on 14th November, the photographs appeared

8 listed as one of the exhibits to be used through this witness.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: And they are plainly in the library of the e-court

10 system because they have a number, P2310.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: They are, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you maintain your objection, Mr. Cepic?

13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw my objection, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Very well.

15 You can put them to the witness. Are you seeking to use e-court

16 for this?

17 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, I have it right here.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we zoom in on the photograph with ERN

20 ending 3167? It's that one.

21 Q. Mr. Raka, do you have these photographs on your screen? Do they

22 appear on your screen?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you tell us what is depicted in the photograph to the right

25 of your screen, the first photograph to the right?

Page 3523

1 A. This photo depicts the place where the police were positioned.

2 Q. Is this the lime factory you spoke about earlier?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said you saw the police arriving in two jeeps. Could you tell

5 us where you saw them on this photograph?

6 A. Here, on this part.

7 Q. Could you mark that with an X maybe?

8 A. In this part here.

9 Q. And you said you saw the policemen take up positions where they

10 started firing from. Could you put a circle around where you saw them

11 take up positions?

12 A. The police positions were here, at these windows, and were those

13 two soldiers came after five minutes took up these positions here.

14 Q. Mr. Raka, this structure we see here, this sort of tower we see

15 here at the factory, is this one of the highest points in this area of

16 town?

17 A. It probably is, yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: For clarification of the record, the lowest red

19 mark on the photograph shows where the jeeps arrived. The two higher

20 marks show positions from which firing emerged.

21 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we zoom in on the

22 photograph with ERN --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You can't move now without losing what you've got.

24 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, could we take a snapshot of this and have this

25 exhibit be assigned a following IC number?

Page 3524

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC38, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we now move to the photograph with ERN ending

4 in 3169?

5 Q. Mr. Raka, could you tell us what is depicted on this photograph?

6 A. In this photograph, you can see my house and the house I was at

7 the moment when the firing started.

8 Q. Could you mark a 1 next to your house?

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. And could you put a 2 next to the house where you were observing

11 what was happening at the lime factory?

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Thank you. From where is this photograph taken, Mr. Raka?

14 A. I took the photos in order to explain more clearly the positions

15 where the police were and where my house was and where I was staying.

16 Q. So this photograph was taken from the positions you marked with a

17 circle on the previous photograph, where the police was stationed?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Raka, when did you take these photographs?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took these photographs sometime

21 in 2002.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we now zoom in on the third photographs one is

24 ERN ending in 3168 -- oh, a snapshot, please, of this, yes, of course.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This one will be, Your Honours, IC39.

Page 3525

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


3 Q. Mr. Raka, could you tell us what we see on this third photograph?

4 A. We see the position from where I observed what was going on.

5 Q. And is this roof that we see on the right-hand side of the

6 photograph the roof of your house?

7 A. It is the courtyard of my neighbour.

8 Q. Mr. Raka, moving on now, you said the police was firing from these

9 positions. For approximately how long were they firing towards your area

10 of town?

11 A. The fire lasted approximately some 30 minutes or more.

12 Q. And do you know if any people, anyone resulted injured as a result

13 of this firing, of this shooting?

14 A. Yes. My wife got injured.

15 Q. Where was your wife when she was injured?

16 A. My wife was at home.

17 Q. And do you know how she got injured?

18 A. She got injured because of the shots.

19 Q. And where exactly in the house was she at the time she was

20 injured?

21 A. She was in the cellar.

22 Q. Your wife was injured while she was in the cellar, or was she at

23 some point trying to leave the cellar when she was injured?

24 A. At the moment when the firing started, she tried to go from one

25 cellar to a next cellar where she felt she was safer.

Page 3526

1 Q. And where was she at the time she was injured?

2 A. At the moment when she was leaving the cellar. She was in the

3 yard, I would say.

4 Q. Mr. Raka, after the firing or the shooting ended, were you able to

5 return to your house?

6 A. No. We left the house. I went back. I got my injured wife and

7 together we left.

8 Q. And were you able to obtain medical attention for your wife?

9 A. No. About after some ten hours, a doctor came and gave her some

10 blood.

11 Q. And did you try to take your wife to the local hospital in Kacanik

12 for medical attention?

13 A. It was impossible to do that.

14 Q. Why was it impossible to do that at the time?

15 A. Because of the war situation.

16 Q. You said you left your house and that later your wife received

17 medical attention. Did you later decide to leave Kacanik?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you leave alone with your family or were others with you at

20 the time?

21 A. The entire neighbourhood.

22 Q. And could you explain why the neighbourhood was leaving, why your

23 neighbours were also leaving the town?

24 A. They were leaving because we heard that the police entered a house

25 and got three people from there, one of them they killed. This made us

Page 3527

1 leave the houses.

2 Q. You said you heard the police had taken some people from a house.

3 From whom did you hear this?

4 A. We heard this from the people in the neighbourhood, the people who

5 were closer to the place where the police went.

6 Q. And were these people also leaving the town?

7 A. Yes, yes, all of them.

8 Q. Approximately how many of you were in this group with you leaving

9 the town that day?

10 A. We were, I would say, about 1.000. I might say from 500 to 1.000.

11 Q. And in which direction did you led when you left the town of

12 Kacanik?

13 A. We went in the direction of Gjurgjedol.

14 Q. How long did you remain once you arrived to this town Gjurgjedol?

15 How long did you remain there?

16 A. We stayed there one night.

17 Q. And where did you continue after you left that location?

18 A. We continued our way towards Macedonia.

19 Q. Were you able to cross a border into Macedonia, Mr. Raka?

20 A. Not the first time.

21 Q. And when were you able to cross the border?

22 A. Not -- not even the second time. It was only the third time that

23 we managed to cross the border to Macedonia.

24 Q. So how many days were you waiting to cross a border into

25 Macedonia?

Page 3528

1 A. From the moment that my wife was wounded until we reached

2 Macedonia, it took us two days. At the border we waited some three, four,

3 five hours, and the house -- the army stopped us two times.

4 Q. Once you crossed the border into Macedonia, were you able to

5 obtain medical assistance for your wife?

6 A. Yes. I took her to the hospital of Skopje.

7 Q. And was she able to recover from her injuries, the injuries she

8 had sustained that day of the shooting?

9 A. No. No. She was not. She died.

10 Q. How old was your wife, Mr. Raka, when she died?

11 A. She was born in 1971. At that time she was 27 years old or 28

12 years old.

13 Q. And was she pregnant at the time she was injured?

14 A. Yes, she was.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, may I have a moment?

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Raka, can I just ask you one thing? The lime

18 factory, when you took the photographs in 2002, was it operational,

19 operating as a lime factory?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Preparations were underway to start

21 operation.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And when the events took place in March 1999, was

23 it operating then as a lime factory?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember very well, but I

25 know that there were guards 24 hours.

Page 3529

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And what about today? Does it function today?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I have no further questions of this

5 witness.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 Mr. O'Sullivan?

8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be General Lukic,

9 General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic and

10 General Ojdanic.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Raka. I'm Branko Lukic, and

15 together with my colleagues Dragan Ivetic and Ozren Ogrizovic, we

16 represent General Lukic.

17 Do you have your statement in Albanian, and do you need it if you

18 don't have it?

19 A. No, I don't have it in Albanian. I have it in English. If

20 possible, I would really appreciate having the Albanian version before me.

21 Q. Could we go to paragraph 7 immediately, please? You say there

22 were only civilians in the house. "No one from our family was in the

23 KLA."

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know that in the village of Bob, there were some 400

Page 3530

1 members of the KLA?

2 A. Up until that time, the 27th of March, there wasn't. At least I

3 don't know that there was.

4 Q. Do you know that in the neighbouring forests and on the hilltops,

5 there were members of the KLA?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Now I would like you to go to paragraph 8, please. You say here

8 that between 24 and 27 March 1999, there was shooting from the police

9 station in Kacanik. They were shooting without any specific target.

10 I believe that the witness said yes but it has not been reflected

11 in the transcript.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we can assume it because you're simply

13 reading his statement to him. So please carry on to the question.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Since you lived in Kacanik, do you know that the police station in

16 Stari Kacanik came under attack on the 27th of March, 1999, at 1850?

17 A. I don't know. Kacanik i Vjeter to my knowledge is a village.

18 Q. How far away is Stari Kacanik from your house?

19 A. I don't know exactly because I've never been there. I have no

20 family there.

21 Q. Very well. Do you know that on that same day, the 27 March 1999,

22 in Bob village, a column of the Yugoslav army was attacked sometime

23 between 1600 and 1700 hours, and that the attack came from the lime

24 factory, precisely from there?

25 A. I don't know about that.

Page 3531

1 Q. But you said that on that day, you were observing what was going

2 on in the lime factory. How come you didn't see one incident and you saw

3 the other?

4 A. On the 27th March, around the time you mentioned, I was at my

5 uncle's house.

6 Q. And from your uncle's house, were you able to see this incident?

7 A. No. It cannot be observed from there.

8 Q. Very well. Can we now have Exhibit 2310 on e-court, please?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on to that, Mr. Raka, the -- you

10 talked about random shooting from the police station in Kacanik between

11 the 24th and the 27th. And you also talked in your statement about firing

12 against the house of Shaip Dema in the village of Bob, and that was from

13 the area of the police station. These two separate incidents, are you

14 referring to the same police station?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my knowledge, it is the same

16 police station. It's only one. And the firing towards Shaip Dema's house

17 occurred in the morning.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we have

21 the exhibit on e-court, please?

22 Q. Mr. Raka, photo 3168, these are the last four digits of the photo,

23 presents the place from which you were observing the events that you have

24 described for us; is that correct?

25 A. This photograph was taken from the courtyard of my neighbour, not

Page 3532

1 exactly from the window from where I was observing, just to show the

2 position where I was.

3 Q. In other words, none of these photos shows the view that you had

4 while observing the developments that you've described?

5 A. These photographs clearly show the event that I described.

6 Q. I may have not been clear enough. I'll repeat. Is it correct

7 that in no one of these three photos we can see the view that you yourself

8 had when you were observing the event?

9 A. Please be more clear.

10 Q. I'll try. Can you please point to the photo among the three that

11 you see before you which depicts the view that you yourself had while you

12 were observing the events that you have described for us, and which was

13 taken from the place where were you standing while you were observing the

14 event?

15 A. This is the door to my neighbour's house, and here is a window.

16 The window is marked with a spot, with a dot, and I was actually observing

17 from this window. Not only me but the family of my neighbour was also

18 observing.

19 Q. However, the photo that you are showing to us was taken from a

20 different side and depicts the house where you were. And I'm asking you

21 this: Neither 3168 nor 3167 depict or reflect the view that you had as

22 you were looking towards the lime factory?

23 A. Well, one can go to the very spot and verify this, what you're

24 saying.

25 Q. Could you please answer by just yes or no? Does any of the two

Page 3533

1 upper photos show the view that you yourself had on the day when you were

2 observing the events, just yes or no, please?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Which one? Which one is that?

5 A. This is a position from the factory towards the house from where

6 they were firing. Photograph 3168 shows the position minus or plus two

7 metres from where I was observing. And photograph 3167, the position

8 where the police stopped, where the police was.

9 Q. In other words, if 3168 is the photo that depicts your view, then

10 in no case could you observe the position of the police that you have

11 described and marked in photo 3167, because that part of the lime factory

12 you could not see from the position depicted in the photo 3168.

13 A. We could see it because when the police were taking up positions

14 and when they were climbing the staircase, we could see exactly where they

15 were taking these positions.

16 Q. Remember the view from 3168, and we shall now go to Exhibit IC38,

17 please.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you wish this one captured for posterity?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no. It doesn't mean

20 anything.

21 [In English] It means nothing, Your Honour, because it doesn't

22 show the view we are trying to establish here.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. No need to take that one. We'll move

24 on. So can we have IC38?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3534

1 Q. Do you see now that the X that you put on photo 3167 could not be

2 seen by you from the place that you showed to us in the photo 3168?

3 A. I was very clear in my answer. In 3168, it is plus/minus two

4 metres from the position where I was. I took this photograph from the

5 staircase at my neighbour's house. We could see very clearly from this

6 position, and you can verify if you go to the very spot in the house.

7 Q. I would very much like to go there but we can't do that at the

8 moment. That's why I'm asking you. Could you please tell us, then, where

9 from did you take this photo, 3168? Where did you take it from?

10 JUDGE BONOMY: He's just told you he took it from the staircase of

11 his neighbour's house.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. How is it possible, then, for you to climb two metres higher?

14 A. The photograph was taken in 2002, as I said.

15 Q. But that's not the answer to my question.

16 A. What do you mean?

17 Q. Were you on the staircase at the moment when the developments were

18 taking place, the events that you described for us?

19 A. I was very clear in my answer. This photograph was taken in 2002,

20 and it was not taken from the position where I was observing. It was

21 taken from my neighbour's courtyard, and you can see very clearly from the

22 photograph where I was. The other photograph, not this one.

23 Q. Can we then conclude that these photos are not of use to us and

24 they can't help us understand what actually happened?

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that a question to me? Which may be an

Page 3535

1 appropriate person to pose it to. It's certainly not one to ask the

2 witness.

3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one thing you mayor clarify for me, Mr. Raka.

5 We have certainly in the English translation a reference to you on a

6 staircase. Was that when you were viewing the events in 1999 or was that

7 when you were taking the photograph?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was taking the photograph in

9 2002, I did that from the staircase of my neighbour's house; while on the

10 27th of March 1999, I went to my neighbour to ask for something, the

11 police forces came, and then my neighbour offered me to go inside his

12 house.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: So you were viewing it from a window inside the

14 house?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: The photograph was taken from the courtyard

17 outside?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from outside.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: Can I move on, Your Honour? Thank you.

21 Q. [Interpretation] You say that fire was opened from the police

22 station by using a rocket launcher. Do you know what rocket launchers

23 exactly?

24 A. I don't know that because I'm not a military person. I did not

25 complete my military service. But I know that there was shooting coming

Page 3536

1 from the police station, shooting from a rocket launchers or whatever they

2 called them.

3 Q. You didn't see them firing from rocket launchers; is that correct?

4 A. No. I did see them when they fired at Shaip Dema's house. They

5 fired six times.

6 Q. You saw the police station at the moment when they opened fire on

7 Shaip Dema's house?

8 A. I didn't see it, but the shooting was coming from that direction.

9 Q. So you don't know whether it was actually coming from the police

10 station?

11 A. It was coming from the centre, and the police station is in the

12 centre of Kacanik.

13 Q. Therefore, we can conclude that you didn't see fire being opened

14 from the police station, isn't that so?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: The statement doesn't claim that he did. The

16 statement is clearly to the effect the shooting was coming from the area

17 of the police station.

18 MR. LUKIC: The problem is it's not possible to fire a rocket

19 launcher from the building. It would destroy the building itself.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll hear that, no doubt, in due course when you

21 lead evidence. But the witness isn't saying it came from the building.

22 MR. LUKIC: Okay, Your Honour. I move on. Thank you.

23 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 8 you also state that curfew was

24 introduced in the town. How were you notified of that?

25 A. In fact, there was no movement in the town, along the asphalt

Page 3537

1 road, because we couldn't see the city from that part. So it means that

2 it was a curfew, because there was no movement at all.

3 Q. Were you notified officially by radio or in any written form as to

4 the introduction of that curfew?

5 A. No, we were not officially informed by anyone, but the situation

6 spoke for itself.

7 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to paragraph 12, please.

8 Can you please tell us again how many policemen came in front of

9 the lime factory?

10 A. I didn't count them, but I would say 20 to 30 policemen for sure.

11 Q. And they all came in those three jeeps?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So seven to ten people per jeep, and those jeeps actually can seat

14 four?

15 A. Well, those who were actually on the jeep know better how they

16 could go in that number in the jeep.

17 Q. You mentioned Lubisha there. You say that your neighbour -- that

18 he was your neighbour. What was he wearing at the time?

19 A. What do you mean? When he came to the factory?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. He was wearing a police uniform, blue camouflage one. I was

22 positive that it was him, at least from the position from where I was

23 observing.

24 Q. In paragraph 14, you state that he ordered the others to come out

25 of the jeeps. What did the policemen do after that?

Page 3538

1 A. Yes. They started to crawl, some of them crawled, some were

2 walking on foot, around the factory. You can see this on 3167. They came

3 out then in this part here.

4 Q. In your statement, in paragraph 14, you state -- or, rather, you

5 don't mention anyone walking but that they came out of the vehicles and

6 started crawling. Were there some who walked as well?

7 A. I was very clear. They were crawling, some of them were walking

8 on foot.

9 Q. Were they next to each other, some crawling, some walking?

10 A. Yes. They were kind of together, in a group.

11 Q. Mr. Isa, it is our Defence's position that your testimony in this

12 part is illogical. There is a group of people, some of them walking,

13 whereas others crawl. Do you still stand by that?

14 A. They did not walk the way you think. They were walking faster and

15 those that were crawling, they were crawling fast.

16 Q. Can we conclude, then, that these policemen clearly sensed some

17 danger, that they felt they were under threat?

18 A. I don't think they were under threat. They wanted to cause fear

19 among the population. This is at least what I think, why they were doing

20 that.

21 Q. Did you recognise anyone else among the group?

22 A. No. Except for Lubisha, who I believe was Lubisha, the one who

23 was standing by the jeep.

24 Q. And you didn't tell members of the ICG that you recognised Oliver,

25 Brace, Tita, Bane, as well as someone who worked for the post office, this

Page 3539

1 Bane?

2 A. They could have been there as well, but how can I explain this

3 now? I don't know about Bane, but the other policemen, I was told by

4 other people that they were very strict. I could know them through other

5 people, not personally.

6 Q. Did you see whether the members of that unit had sniping rifles?

7 Did you see them carrying snipers?

8 A. I was convinced that they were firing from sniper rifles, and you

9 can see the place where they were firing.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I sense I may be treading on glass here, but your

11 question about the ICG suggests a statement.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's his statement to the ICG.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Now are you saying that within that statement there

14 is reference to recognising people?

15 MR. LUKIC: He mentioned those people.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's rather different, but it's just the

17 way the question was framed and we are not seeing the statement. I want

18 to be clear that the question has been put --

19 MR. LUKIC: He just explained us that it's not that he recognised

20 those people.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: No, but are you claiming it that in the statement

22 he said he recognised them?

23 MR. LUKIC: May I have a second, please?


25 MR. LUKIC: The statement says names of perpetrators, Lubisha,

Page 3540

1 Oliver, Brace, Tita, and Bane, former employee of the Kacanik post office.

2 It's not clear.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. That's fine. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Isa, did you know that those Albanians who

6 were loyal to Serbia were often declared collaborators and were often

7 targeted by the KLA?

8 A. No, I don't know that. I have heard the word "collaborator" but I

9 have not heard of cases like this.

10 Q. Would you agree with me that in fact, the two guards who worked

11 for the factory which was owned by Serbia were actually killed by the KLA

12 and that that was the reason why the police came?

13 A. The two persons that were killed at the factory, they were working

14 as guards in the factory.

15 Q. We heard that from you earlier, and this is in your statement.

16 I'm asking you this: Did you know that they were in fact killed by

17 members of the KLA?

18 A. That is not true, that they were killed by the KLA.

19 Q. You are telling us in your statement that you don't know who

20 killed them. How can you exclude the possibility I suggested, therefore?

21 A. Based on what Halil's sons said, the picture 3168, the lower part,

22 that's where the jeep with the two soldiers went, and most probably they

23 killed them. Halid [phoen] and Shefket were sitting below there.

24 Q. You saw all this?

25 A. I didn't say that I saw that with my own eyes, but his sons saw

Page 3541

1 that.

2 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 18, you describe a gypsy who was walking

3 along your side of the river and who was killed when the firing started.

4 Was your wife wounded at approximately the same time?

5 A. Yes. Yes. At approximately the same time.

6 Q. How much time elapsed until the moment when the gypsy's body was

7 taken away?

8 A. I don't know how much time elapsed, but I heard that somebody came

9 and took his body.

10 Q. You state that this someone who collected the body was also almost

11 shot. Does that mean that within this one hour, the body was collected as

12 well, or was it after the exchange of fire or, rather, the firing?

13 A. Based on what I heard, the person who took the body was from the

14 clinic nearby, from Kacanik, and I heard that he was stopped by the police

15 on his way and nearly killed.

16 Q. In your statement, you said that person was almost shot too. Is

17 it your testimony today --

18 A. Very clear, sir.

19 Q. Please go on.

20 A. I told you that the person who came from the clinic to collect the

21 body of the Roma, I heard that he was stopped by the police and that he

22 was nearly killed, together with his driver.

23 Q. Do you know what ethnicity that person is, as well as the

24 ethnicity of his driver?

25 A. Based on the information that I have, he was Albanian. And in

Page 3542

1 Kacanik, most of the drivers who worked at the clinic were Albanians.

2 Q. So both the paramedic and the driver were Albanians employed with

3 the health centre in Kacanik at the time of the firing; is that correct?

4 A. Only the driver came to collect the body. Now, I don't know

5 whether he was a driver, a doctor or a nurse. This is what I heard, that

6 only one person came to collect the body.

7 Q. So the police didn't stop, as you previously stated, someone from

8 the medical facility plus his driver, but rather they only stopped one

9 single person? Is this what you are telling us now?

10 A. I'm very clear. The person who came to collect the body of Jonuz

11 on his way back to the clinic, I heard that he was stopped by the police,

12 and that the driver of the clinic was nearly killed. Now, I don't know

13 whether he was a driver or a doctor. This is what I heard. The body of

14 Jonuz was carried by this personnel of the clinic, because when the body

15 was collected, we had already left our house.

16 Q. But in the meantime you called the health centre in Kacanik; is

17 that correct?

18 A. My cousin, I don't know, he was lucky to get through because the

19 phone was not working properly. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

20 I don't know now if he called the clinic or the house of the doctor, and

21 he asked for help for my wife. This happened in late hours.

22 Q. But that call took place during the firing, is that so?

23 A. When the phone call was made, I don't think there was firing; at

24 least there were scarce firing, sporadic firing.

25 Q. Something is not clear to me. If someone came there with an

Page 3543

1 ambulance to collect the dead gypsy, and since you say you gave that call

2 to the health centre as well, why didn't they take your wife as well, but,

3 rather, they sent a doctor to come from the other side, through the

4 forest?

5 A. At the time when they came to collect Jonuz's body, we were not

6 here. I told you this. We had already left the house.

7 Q. Where did you go after having left your house? You went to your

8 neighbourhood, isn't that so?

9 A. To my uncle's house.

10 Q. How far away is your uncle's house from your house?

11 A. About ten, 15 minutes away. It is in the centre of the

12 neighbourhood.

13 Q. How far away is the hospital from your house?

14 A. It's not a hospital. It's a clinic. It's in the other part of

15 the town. On foot, about half an hour, 20 to 30 minutes approximately. I

16 don't know exactly.

17 Q. Therefore, you were told by the hospital that it was dangerous for

18 you to come, but at the same time, they didn't refuse you. They didn't

19 say that they wouldn't give you assistance; is that correct?

20 A. Something like that, yes.

21 Q. I have to state our position yet again. Our Defence believes that

22 the people who were employed with the hospital were not afraid of the

23 state authorities of Serbia but, rather, they were afraid of being

24 attacked by KLA members. Isn't that correct?

25 A. On the contrary. From what I heard, they were scared and afraid

Page 3544

1 of the Serbian police, and as I mentioned, the case with the driver who

2 was nearly killed by the Serbian police.

3 Q. Serbian policemen, who could be wounded at any time and who could

4 need medical assistance at any moment, in your view, presented a danger

5 for the personnel at the health centre, is that your testimony?

6 A. Can you repeat your question, please?

7 Q. Is it your testimony today that Serbian armed forces presented a

8 danger for those employed with the Serbian state hospitals?

9 A. I was very clear, sir. The person who went to collect Jonuz's

10 body and carried his body to the clinic, I heard that he was threatened by

11 the Serb police, and this clearly shows that he was threatened by the

12 police. This is what I heard.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a suitable time to interrupt you?

14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, and I have only two or three

15 questions, very short.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll resume at five past 4.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic. Oh, sorry, no witness.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Raka, do you know how far away is the Shaip house from the

24 lime factory? And you said of that house that it had been hit by a rocket

25 launcher.

Page 3545

1 A. Approximately from the pictures, I can show you from this

2 photograph, in this photograph, where Shaip's house is. It's these houses

3 here, uphill. It's -- you can see here the asphalt road, the main road,

4 and somewhere here it's Shaip's house.

5 Q. Could you give us a distance?

6 A. Well, as the crow flies, but first of all tell me do you mean from

7 the factory or from the police station?

8 Q. The factory, the factory.

9 A. From the factory, approximately 250 metres or 300 metres. I can't

10 tell you exactly, because Shaip's house is very close to the asphalt road,

11 and it stood out because it was a nice house.

12 Q. Did you hear in the meantime that Jonuz Berisha, the gypsy that

13 you mentioned, is actually alive, that he was -- actually, that he was

14 still alive when he was transported from Kacanik to Pristina?

15 A. Maybe he was alive, but as I told you earlier, I did not see him.

16 Maybe he was alive or he was dead. I don't know.

17 Q. Let's briefly go back to this. Why did you go on that day from

18 your house to your uncle's house, or your neighbour's house, I don't know?

19 A. I went to my neighbour's house to borrow something. I can't even

20 remember what I went there to borrow. I was asked by my family to go.

21 Q. Thank you. On that day, did the police cross the river, from the

22 factory towards your house?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you. And tell me, please, who was it who decided that

25 people from your neighbourhood should set out towards Macedonia?

Page 3546

1 A. Hamit's death, and Sefedin Beqa's sons who were taken away by the

2 police, this is what caused us to leave. We were told by our neighbours,

3 by the people who lived close to where these people lived, what had

4 happened, and so people decided to leave.

5 Q. On page 15, line 24, my learned friend Kravetz asked you why you

6 were not able to cross to Macedonia. Who was it who prevented you from

7 crossing the border into Macedonia?

8 A. What do you mean, where the Macedonian army stopped us or when the

9 event happened, when we were not able to give any assistance? Could you

10 clarify, please?

11 Q. When you were on the border, who was it who stopped you from

12 entering Macedonia, the first and the second time?

13 A. We were prevented by the Macedonian forces. They were military

14 forces.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

17 further questions for this witness.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

19 Mr. Ackerman.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Raka.

22 I just -- I want to ask you about paragraph 12 of your statement,

23 the last two sentences of that paragraph. You were talking about the

24 police that came to that lime factory. You said two of the officers wore

25 different uniforms, they wore regular army, VJ camouflage uniforms which

Page 3547

1 have a green and brown pattern. Now by saying that, you certainly don't

2 mean to suggest that they were actually members of the VJ but simply that

3 they were wearing uniforms that looked the same as the VJ might wear.

4 Correct?

5 A. Well, the persons who were there know that. From what I was able

6 to observe, they had green camouflage uniforms. I know that the police

7 uniforms are blue camouflage, and these were different.

8 Q. Yeah. But as far as you know, they were local Serbs dressed up in

9 camouflage uniforms and not actually members of the army; correct? You

10 don't know who they were, do you?

11 A. No, I don't know.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I have, Your Honour. Thank you.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

14 Does that solve your problem too, Mr. Cepic?

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour. Thank you

16 very much, Your Honour, once again. We don't have any questions for this

17 witness.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Fila?

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will have a few

21 questions for this witness, just to clear up some terminology. I would

22 just like to check whether the witness understands what he's saying.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

24 Q. I'm Toma Fila, I represent Nikola Sainovic. I'll -- I'm going to

25 ask you some things in order to clear up some terminology.

Page 3548

1 When the doctor arrived to examine your wife, in the statement,

2 you said that he gave her an infusion, and today you said that he gave her

3 a transfusion. Do you know the difference between an infusion and a

4 transfusion, or maybe you can clarify what the doctor did. It would be

5 very difficult to give a transfusion on the spot. I'm not saying that you

6 don't know what happened but just please explain.

7 A. Well, he put a needle in the blood vessels, here, and there was a

8 bottle there, I can't tell you whether it was an infusion or a

9 transfusion. I'm not a doctor.

10 Q. Yes. That's what I've asked you precisely.

11 And my second question is this: In your statement on page 12 you

12 say that you saw the rocket launcher. You said that you saw -- had seen

13 it and that it fired a shot at the house. Today you said that there were

14 six shots. And then in the statement, in the same paragraph, you said

15 that you had heard shots coming from the direction of the police station.

16 And you also told us that you had not served in the army. Can you

17 describe a rocket launcher, or did it just seem to you that this was

18 something similar to a rocket launcher? What is a rocket launcher? Where

19 did you see it?

20 A. Well, while they were shooting, you could see the fire that

21 followed the whole line of shooting. I don't know what else to tell you.

22 I have not been in the military.

23 Q. So you don't -- did not see the piece of artillery from which the

24 shots came, you just saw the trace of fire; is that correct? Because if

25 you had seen the rocket launcher you must have seen somebody at the rocket

Page 3549

1 launcher, a person.

2 A. I explained, I think very clearly, that the police station could

3 not be seen from where we were, but the shots came from the police

4 station. So I repeat: The shots and the firing came from that area.

5 Yes, from the police station.

6 Q. And I agree with you on that. But you could not see the piece

7 that you refer to as a rocket launcher. You just think that this was a

8 rocket launcher. I don't know how else to explain that because let's --

9 let me put it this way. If you heard something, that doesn't mean

10 necessarily that you saw it, and if you did see it, then I would kindly

11 ask you to describe a rocket launcher for us and what people are usually

12 around it and if you just heard it, then that's that. Can you explain?

13 A. Well, the firing against the Shaip Dema's house, I heard them and

14 I thought the firing came from the police station. It could have been a

15 rocket launcher, maybe a mortar. There was quite a big noise.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, we take the view that the witness did not

17 see the weapon. If that helps you, let's move on.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Of course the witness himself says

19 that. He confirms that he didn't see it.

20 Q. And the third question that I have is this: How far away is the

21 Macedonian border from your house; or in terms of time, how long did it

22 take you to get from your house to the Macedonian border?

23 A. From my house to Gjurgjedol we travelled for five hours. From

24 Gjurgjedol to Blace, it took us ten to 15 hours, on foot.

25 Q. Very well. And my final question: Why did it not occur to you to

Page 3550

1 go to the clinic which is only half an hour away but instead you took your

2 wife to Macedonia, which is 15 hours away? That's my last question.

3 A. Well, if the matters stood as you were describing them, the police

4 would not have been shooting from the police station, and when they were

5 shooting, how could we go in that direction? It was the police that were

6 shooting towards us. It was a very dangerous situation, so we had to

7 leave our homes.

8 Q. Maybe you didn't understand me. When you started moving towards

9 the Macedonian border in a column, how come you did not go to the

10 outpatients' clinic but you went to the Macedonian border? Nobody was

11 shooting at you at the time. It doesn't make sense to me.

12 And that is my last question, thank you.

13 A. [No interpretation].

14 JUDGE BONOMY: The answer hasn't been translated at the moment.

15 Could you give that answer again, please, Mr. Raka?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry to ask you to give the answer for a third

18 time but there is still no interpretation. Someone is missing what you're

19 saying.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you hear me now? Sorry. It was

21 very dangerous. It was very dangerous to go to the clinic.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 Mr. O'Sullivan?

24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And Mr. Visnjic?

Page 3551

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Ms. Kravetz?

4 MS. KRAVETZ: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Well, Mr. Raka, that completes your evidence. Thank you very much

7 for coming to the Tribunal to give it. And you're now free to leave.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, our next witness is Fadil Vishi.

10 Mr. Vishi is a 92 bis (D) witness. The transcript from the Milosevic case

11 is P2285, and there is an incorporated statement which is P2284. He'll be

12 addressing events in the village of Dubrava which is still in the Kacanik

13 municipality. The particular indictment paragraphs are 72(k),

14 subsection (iv), and 75(k), subsection (iv), and as well as Schedule K the

15 subsection of that relating to specifically to Dubrava.

16 And Your Honour, I'm actually Mr. Scully, not Mr. Marcussen for

17 the record. Although I'm sure he would do better.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: That statement, Mr. Scully is the 18th of October

19 1999, is it?

20 MR. SCULLY: That's correct, Your Honour, and there are no

21 additional statements.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Vishi.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

Page 3552

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

2 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed

3 before you?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

9 Now, Mr. Vishi, we have before us the full written record of the

10 evidence you gave in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic. We also have the

11 statement you gave which was part of your evidence in that trial. So

12 we've got a lot of information already in front of us that has been

13 provided by you and we've all read it. The purpose of you being here is

14 that so that you can answer particular questions that are asked by counsel

15 representing the Prosecution and the various accused, and it's important

16 in doing that that you concentrate on the particular question asked.

17 There is no point in us going over the same information again that we

18 already have in writing. The important thing for us is to try to

19 supplement that. Obviously, everyone is going to ask you questions

20 related to what we have in writing, but we hope to learn more by listening

21 to what you have to say today and not simply to hear again what you've

22 already told the Court.

23 First person to ask you questions then will be for the

24 Prosecution, Mr. Scully.

25 Mr. Scully.

Page 3553

1 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Examination by Mr. Scully:

3 Q. Could you state your name and spell your last name for the record,

4 Mr. Vishi?

5 A. My name is Fadil Vishi.

6 Q. And where do you currently live, Mr. Vishi?

7 A. I live in the village of Dubrava in the municipality of Kacanik.

8 Q. And how long have you lived in Dubrava?

9 A. I've been living in Dubrava from my birth.

10 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on

11 18 October 1999 which addresses events in Dubrava which took place in

12 1999?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And did you also testify in the Milosevic trial regarding those

15 same events?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review your October 1999 statement

18 on 8 September of this year?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Bearing in mind the corrections you made to that statement during

21 the Milosevic trial, is that statement otherwise correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, my first substantive question relates

24 to his statement at page 2 of the English and B/C/S as well as e-court

25 pages 6 and 11 of the transcript which is P2285.

Page 3554

1 Q. Mr. Vishi, you've described how soldiers were stationed at the

2 Silkapor factory and you've also described how soldiers would pass your

3 village on the roads. Could you see what kind of uniforms those soldiers

4 wore?

5 A. The soldiers were wearing different kinds of uniforms but the ones

6 that I saw myself had camouflage uniforms.

7 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, the next question relates to the same

8 pages.

9 Q. You've also described a day wherein Sylejman Gurri was seized by

10 persons you described as soldiers. Could you see the uniforms the persons

11 who took Sylejman Gurri were wearing?

12 A. Yes. That's correct. I saw them with my own eyes, because I was

13 very close.

14 Q. Was the uniform worn by the persons who took Sylejman Gurri the

15 same type of uniform that was worn by the soldiers you saw around Dubrava?

16 A. Yes, the same uniform, camouflage uniform.

17 MR. SCULLY: May I have Exhibit 2306 at page 3 -- it's a

18 photograph -- up on the screen? I believe that's page 1. May I have

19 page 3?

20 Q. Directing your attention to the photograph that's on your screen,

21 do you recognise the person that's in that photograph?

22 A. Yes. I recognise him.

23 Q. Who is that?

24 A. He is Sylejman Gurri, who, on the 5th of May, was kidnapped in my

25 presence, and he was killed on the 25th of May. While this photograph was

Page 3555

1 taken on the 26th of May.

2 Q. Were you present either when he was killed or when the photograph

3 was taken?

4 A. No, I wasn't.

5 Q. How do you know he was killed?

6 A. Well, you can see from the photograph that he was killed.

7 Somebody took this photograph.

8 Q. Where did you get that photograph?

9 A. I took this photograph from a person called Farid Vishi [phoen].

10 Q. And does that person live in Dubrava?

11 A. No. He doesn't live now. But he used to live in the village of

12 Nika. But he was married to somebody from my village.

13 Q. Was he in or around Dubrava in May of 1999?

14 A. In May 1999, he was in his own village but his village is very

15 close to mine. But the kidnapping happened in Dubrava.

16 Q. After you saw Sylejman Gurri kidnapped on the 5th of May, did you

17 personally ever see him alive again?

18 A. No. I didn't. I only saw this photograph where he is dead.

19 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, the next question relates to statement

20 page 3 in B/C/S and English. It's page 9 in Albanian.

21 Q. Mr. Vishi, in your statement you've described how on the 25th of

22 May, 1999, soldiers surrounded Dubrava. Could you tell us what you mean

23 by "surrounded"?

24 A. I mean that on the 25th of May, at 3.30 in the morning, the whole

25 village was surrounded by Serbian forces, military and paramilitary, and

Page 3556

1 there was an offensive against the village that day. And there were other

2 victims as well in addition to Sylejman Gurri.

3 Q. What kind of equipment did you observe the forces using?

4 A. They had all kind of equipment, even heavy weapons, Pragas and

5 APCs.

6 Q. How do you know what a Praga and an APC is?

7 A. Well, I could tell because they are various kinds of military

8 equipment.

9 Q. Had you seen that same equipment being used by Serbian military

10 and police before?

11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would object to the question.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on, please, just now, Mr. Vishi.

13 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Based upon the assertion of the police I read his

15 statement and his testimony and he does not discuss the police, and since

16 he's a 92 bis I would like to, you know, make sure that his testimony does

17 not go out side the bounds of what was disclosed to me.

18 MR. SCULLY: I'll make it an "or," Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, "or" doesn't help.

20 MR. IVETIC: Yeah, I don't think it helps.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Because the point that's being made is that there

22 is no indication given in advance that this witness will say anything

23 about the police.

24 MR. SCULLY: All right. I'll rephrase it.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

Page 3557


2 Q. Mr. Vishi, had you seen the soldiers who were around Dubrava using

3 that same type of equipment before they surrounded Dubrava?

4 A. We had seen them earlier, as well, because they were stationed at

5 the Silkapor factory where such equipment -- where they used such

6 equipment.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. SCULLY: Your Honours, the next question relates to the

9 following page in all languages. And may I have P2306, first page 7 up on

10 the screen? It's another photograph.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you go on to that, have we to read a

12 lot into this statement? Although -- I mean, you've asked a few questions

13 which have advanced it somewhat but we have a situation of a village

14 surrounded and we have movement from the village, and then we know about

15 what happened to various people or we see what is said to have happened to

16 various people. But what are we -- are we to read something into the

17 suggestion that this was an offensive that involved Pragas and APCs,

18 because they don't appear to have done anything according to the

19 statement.

20 MR. SCULLY: I don't know of any additional evidence that this

21 witness has. I'm certainly happy to --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. I just want to be sure that I'm not

23 missing the point of this. You've taken it as far as you understand it

24 goes.

25 MR. SCULLY: Yeah. And I'm happy to supply my interpretation, but

Page 3558

1 I don't have any additional evidence.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: No. That's fine. Thank you very much.


4 Q. Mr. Vishi, drawing your attention to the photograph that has just

5 appeared on the screen, do you know who that person is?

6 A. Yes. I know the person. He is Hajrush Qorri.

7 Q. And when was the last time you saw Mr. Qorri alive?

8 A. Before the 25th of May.

9 Q. And where did you obtain this photograph?

10 A. The photograph was taken from the same person, and he was

11 photographed on the same date, on the 26th of May, after the Serbian

12 forces withdrew from the area.

13 MR. SCULLY: May I have page 5 of the same exhibit?

14 Q. Drawing your attention to the person shown in that photograph, do

15 you know that person?

16 A. Yes. I recognise him. He is Arben Qorri, Hajrush Qorri's son,

17 the one we saw before in the picture.

18 Q. Thank you. May I have page 1 of that exhibit? And who is

19 depicted in that photograph?

20 A. The girl in the middle is Fetija Qorri [phoen]. She is the

21 daughter of the deceased Hajrush Qorri. She was very young when she was

22 killed alongside her mother.

23 Q. Do you know when she was killed?

24 A. She was killed on the 25th of May.

25 Q. Have you personally seen her alive since the 25th of May?

Page 3559

1 A. No. I couldn't because she was killed on the 25th of May.

2 Q. Does that photograph -- is that photograph a reasonable

3 approximation of her age and appearance when she was killed?

4 A. She was about seven to nine years old. I don't know exactly.

5 Q. Does the photograph show about the way she looked when you saw her

6 back in May?

7 A. Yes. Because this photograph was taken when she was alive. She

8 used to be a pupil in the school where I worked, and I knew her, and also

9 she is an niece of my cousin's.

10 MR. SCULLY: Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Scully, there was a video rejected by the Court

12 in the Milosevic trial and it seems to have related to the same issue as

13 you've just been dealing with. Do you know if there is a link between the

14 video and these photographs?

15 MR. SCULLY: They are basically one and the same except the video

16 is a lot longer and we just opted not to show it.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: But that's all it would do is demonstrate the

18 identity of individuals who are now deceased or the actual bodies of the

19 now deceased?

20 MR. SCULLY: That's correct.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: In fact, it would be the bodies, it wouldn't be --

22 the very last example you've given us wouldn't be on the video?

23 MR. SCULLY: The last example is not on the video. The video was

24 taken I believe at the end of May 1999 and just shows damage to the

25 village and the bodies.

Page 3560

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

2 Mr. O'Sullivan.

3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The order will be General Lazarevic, General

4 Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Sainovic and

5 Mr. Milutinovic.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Mr. Cepic, your hour has come.

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you,

8 Your Honour, yet again.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

10 Q. Mr. Vishi, good afternoon, my name is Djuro Cepic, an

11 attorney-at-law, part of the team of Defence for General Lazarevic.

12 You gave this statement on the 18th of October, 1999, to OTP

13 investigators, and I suppose you understood that statement, you signed it,

14 and accepted it as something that you have stated; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Then on the 7th of May, 2002, you testified in the Milosevic trial

17 before this very Tribunal, is that so?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On both occasions, you describe the events on the 5th of May,

20 1999, when three persons in camouflage uniform kidnapped Sylejman Gurri.

21 And then on page -- or transcript 4472 in the Milosevic trial, you

22 describe that you saw those people wearing camouflage uniforms only

23 briefly, for just a second. Isn't that correct?

24 A. I saw them briefly because they had taken positions, but when

25 Sylejman Gurri --

Page 3561

1 Q. Therefore, you couldn't see whether they had any facial hair; is

2 that correct?

3 A. I saw them.

4 Q. But you couldn't see exactly what they looked like in detail.

5 A. I did see them in detail.

6 Q. Were you able to observe whether any of them had a beard or

7 moustache?

8 A. No. No beard or moustaches. Just one of them was tall, but they

9 did not have long hair. But I recognised this person he was different

10 from the others because he had white hair and white eyes. He was like an

11 albino.

12 Q. So they were between 30 and 50; is that correct?

13 A. One of them could have been younger.

14 Q. As you stated previously, they didn't wear any hats?

15 A. At the moment when they stood up, they did not wear -- they were

16 not wearing hats.

17 Q. And you didn't see any insignia on them, is that so?

18 A. I did not see any insignia. I just saw camouflage uniforms and

19 Kalashnikovs in their hands.

20 Q. Thank you. Further on in your statement, you mention that

21 Mr. Ramadan Lami was buried in Stari Kacanik, old Kacanik. Can you tell

22 me where exactly at what cemetery?

23 A. I don't know that. He was buried by some of my friends. I know

24 that he was buried in Kacanik i Vjeter.

25 Q. Thank you. Thank you. We now come to the 25th of May,

Page 3562

1 around 3.30 a.m. You stated that the village was surrounded. You came to

2 the school where the villagers had gathered, and you told them to make a

3 convoy and leave the village, is that so?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. You were the main person in the village at that moment; isn't that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes. I was kind of leader in the village.

8 Q. How do you explain the fact that you, as a somewhat younger man,

9 were assigned that position, although there were some other men in the

10 village who were older than you?

11 A. I can explain that because a leader in a village is never elected

12 because of his age. It was someone who people trusted. That was the

13 person who usually got elected.

14 Q. Thank you. At that moment, being dark still, you were unable to

15 see exactly who had surrounded you. Once the convoy set out, you took to

16 the mountains and you hid there; is that correct?

17 A. The truth was that at that time we had organised ourselves to

18 protect the village in a way. My brother was one of the guards, along

19 with a cousin. They informed me that the village was surrounded. Then

20 after that, I informed the people that we are surrounded and that we must

21 find a way out of the situation.

22 Q. Prior to that, you had information that there was fighting between

23 the KLA and the police in the village of Stagovo; is that correct?

24 A. That happened on the 21st of May.

25 Q. And you knew that there was fighting in all the nearby villages

Page 3563

1 between the KLA and the police such as Sopotnica, Kovacevac, Bicevac, Nika

2 and Doganovic; isn't that correct?

3 A. No. We did not have that information because, in fact, no

4 fighting took place between the KLA and the army.

5 Q. You took to the mountains and from there you were able to observe

6 the convoy leave. You mentioned that your brother drove the first tractor

7 in the convoy and that he was stopped by some soldiers. And as it is

8 stated in your statement, it was about one kilometre from your village but

9 I believe you at that point were further up, more than one kilometre.

10 A. No. That is not correct. As the crow flies, we were not more

11 than one kilometre away. And when the convoy stopped it was about one

12 kilometre from the centre of the village.

13 Q. And from that distance, you couldn't clearly make out the uniforms

14 worn by those people, you could only see their colour; is that correct?

15 A. That is correct. I couldn't see very clearly the uniforms but I

16 could see that they were military uniforms. And afterwards, my brother

17 told me everything about the uniforms and about what happened.

18 Q. Did you know that local Serbs also wore green camouflage uniforms?

19 A. There was no reason for the local Serbs to wear uniforms. Only

20 the soldiers wore uniforms.

21 Q. So today you are trying to tell us that only the military wore

22 uniforms. Is this what you're telling us?

23 A. If you go by the book, only the army is supposed to wear uniforms.

24 The civilians usually wear civilian clothes.

25 Q. Thank you. You will agree with me that your recollection was far

Page 3564

1 better back in 1999 when you gave the first statement; is that correct?

2 A. I didn't understand what you mean by this question.

3 Q. Could you remember those events better at that time, better than

4 now, seven years later?

5 A. No, no. I remember things accurately now and then, because I'm

6 telling only the truth.

7 Q. Therefore, when you gave your statement back in 1999, your

8 recollection was very good, as well as when you testified against Slobodan

9 Milosevic; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. Because these are things that will live with us forever,

11 because we suffered very much as a result of these events.

12 Q. Since your recollection was so good, how come in the past seven

13 years you never mentioned Pragas and APCs? How do you explain that fact?

14 In the seven years, you never mentioned what you told this Chamber today.

15 A. I didn't say this earlier because at the time that I gave my

16 statement before the investigators of The Hague Tribunal, at that time --

17 Q. Sir, you had seven years on your hands to correct that and it is

18 just today that you've introduced new details.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, you did not give the witness there the

20 opportunity to explain. He started by saying, "I didn't say this earlier

21 because at the time that I gave my statement before the investigators of

22 The Hague Tribunal, at that time --" and then you cut him off.

23 Now, please continue, Mr. Vishi, and explain what you were going

24 to tell us.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that at that time

Page 3565

1 that I gave the statement, there were other persons who gave statements,

2 too, from my village, and I personally wanted to concentrate only on the

3 kidnapping. But when I saw that the other witnesses were not invited to

4 testify, and the fact is that I know what I'm saying, what I'm mentioning

5 now, I wanted to point out now these things.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Vishi, how do you know what others testified about?

8 A. I am not saying that I know what they wanted to say, but I do know

9 what occurred in the village. This is what I'm saying.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: The explanation he gave, Mr. Cepic, was that when

11 he saw that they were not invited to testify, that he expanded his

12 statement. He's not claiming to have inside knowledge of what they said,

13 I don't think.

14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Vishi, do you know that on 25 May 1999, the day that we are

16 talking about right now, in all the villages around your village, there

17 was fighting between the KLA on the one side and the police on the other?

18 Are you aware of that?

19 A. No. No fighting took place between the KLA and the Serbian

20 forces. There were no fighting. The case was that the Serbian forces

21 attacked at will.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have any more

24 questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

Page 3566

1 Just give me a moment.

2 Mr. Ivetic?

3 MR. IVETIC: I believe in so far as the testimony for today we

4 have no questions for this witness.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't please sound so surprised.

6 Mr. Ackerman. Sorry, Mr. Aleksic?

7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We also

8 don't have any questions for this witness.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Scully.

14 MR. SCULLY: Your Honour, I have no further questions, only to

15 move to admit the exhibits.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you.

17 Well, Mr. Vishi, that brings your evidence to an end. Thank you

18 for coming to the Tribunal yet again to give it. And you're now free to

19 leave.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And I wish

21 you all the best and good health.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 MR. SCULLY: I fear it falls to me to tell you we have nothing

25 else for the day, Your Honour.

Page 3567

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I was going to say I'm glad I'm not you,

2 Mr. Hannis, but ...

3 It would be churlish, though, not to acknowledge that there has

4 been a very expeditious conduct of business today, and I suspect at all

5 hands there is an element of surprise that we've reached this stage so

6 quickly.

7 MR. HANNIS: I think that's fair to say, Your Honour. It was not

8 readily foreseeable based on our experience up to this date.

9 We have four more witnesses for this week. The first one tomorrow

10 I anticipate will take longer than either of these two. But the remaining

11 three are similar in nature, I think, to the two that we had today. If

12 that's the case, we may run short again this week. I sent an e-mail, we

13 are making some efforts to see if we can get some additional people here

14 this week. I welcome this trend, if indeed it is the beginning of a

15 trend, and we will try to adjust our scheduling accordingly. We did have

16 in mind the proposed schedule you talked about, with half an hour or

17 direct and redirect and 90 minutes for cross for the week of the 25th, and

18 I have tried to schedule a number of witnesses based on that for that

19 week.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm beginning to think we've been far too generous.

21 No. I welcome the trend that takes a lead from that sort of

22 indication given by the Bench, the Bench itself having tried to give an

23 indication based on experience over the initial weeks of the trial. And

24 as we move forward, hopefully the real areas of controversy will be those

25 on which we concentrate and the marginal areas will be the ones that we

Page 3568

1 abandon in the, I think, interests of everyone.

2 So it looks as though we can now adjourn until 2.15 tomorrow.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.11 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

5 September 2006, at 2.15 p.m.