Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4694

1 Thursday, 12 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll go into closed session for the witness to be

6 brought in.

7 [Closed session]

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13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 Good afternoon, sir. Your evidence will now continue. Please

17 remember that the solemn declaration you took at the beginning to tell the

18 truth continues to apply to your evidence throughout.

19 Ms. Moeller.

20 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examination by Ms. Moeller: [Continued]

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9 [Private session]

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 4697

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11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you move on, first of all, has that

12 got a number?

13 MS. MOELLER: Yes. Sorry. This is (redacted) number P2376.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And what is it?

15 (redacted)

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Page 4698

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6 Q. And you maintain that you did not know or notice anything at that

7 time about this killing of a hundred -- more than a hundred men in a barn

8 in the centre of the village?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In your statement, you say that you saw only one or two houses

11 burning in the area while you were there. Where were those houses, if you

12 recall?

13 A. Well, I don't remember exactly.

14 Q. From where you were positioned, could you actually see the centre

15 of the village?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you're saying you could have seen it if houses in the centre of

18 the village had been burning?

19 A. Yes, I could have seen it, but I can't remember at this very

20 moment where it is relative to the centre of the village.

21 Q. Do you recall when you left this headquarter established at the

22 main road, around which date?

23 A. I don't recall now which date it was, whether it was the 27th,

24 28th, 29th. I don't know.

25 Q. And where did your unit go from there? What was your next

Page 4699

1 deployment?

2 A. After that, our company left towards Orahovac, and the next

3 operation for us was Milanovici and Malishevo.

4 Q. Did you see -- did you see any other units in this operation?

5 A. Only Frenki's men for about 10 minutes and no one else.

6 Q. And the area where you saw Frenki's men, did you depict that on

7 the map that we had a look at yesterday?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Your Honour, I think we do not need to call it up again unless you

10 like to have a look at it again. Okay.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you -- are you finished with the fallout from

12 the video clip?

13 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Is your suggestion that this witness knows more

15 than he's prepared to say? If that's what you're trying to do, have a go

16 at him and find out, but don't play us video clips that make suggestions

17 and then ask a few mild-mannered questions that don't -- if this man's

18 position has to be tested, then it's your duty to test it. I'm left

19 wondering what's the purpose unless you're actually going to ask some

20 challenging questions.

21 MS. MOELLER: Very well.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, maybe you don't have a basis for it, in which

23 case I then wonder why -- what we're doing.

24 MS. MOELLER: Well -- yes. I would -- can I -- with Your Honour's

25 leave, can I finish the other deployments of the witness and then get back

Page 4700

1 at that?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

3 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

4 Q. The next deployment after the one towards Orahovac, according to

5 your statement, was liberating the Pec-Kula-Rozaje road, and in the

6 statement it says it was in early April, 1999.

7 This is page 6 of the statement, Your Honours.

8 Did you see other units involved in this operation?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And the deployment after that you describe in your statement as

11 having been around the Radonjic Lake, Supod, Lapodnica. Were there any

12 VJ, MUP or JSO units involved in this operation to your knowledge? Did

13 you see any?

14 A. I'm sorry, here in the transcript it says something else. That's

15 not what I heard in the interpretation, whether MUP units were involved,

16 yes. What is this about JSO? In any case, that's not the interpretation

17 that I got.

18 Q. I asked you whether in this operation any units of the MUP or the

19 JSO or the VJ were involved and whether you saw those, any of those.

20 A. No. Only the MUP.

21 Q. And the last deployment you talk about in your statement, late

22 April, early May, was in the Suva Reka area, Budakovo.

23 MS. MOELLER: This is page 6 still of his statement.

24 Q. Were there any VJ units, MUP units or JSO units involved in this

25 operation to your knowledge?

Page 4701

1 A. Only MUP.

2 Q. And that was your last deployment. When did you leave Kosovo?

3 A. I don't remember the exact date. Sometime in May.

4 Q. Could we call up Exhibit P99 again, please. Page two, please.

5 Now, we looked at this exhibit yesterday, and you marked in the

6 upper-left corner the approximate position your unit was, and when I

7 talked about the centre of the village today, I was referring to the part

8 of the village which is in the right-hand side of the photo where a

9 vertical street is going up. I ask you again, could you see from where

10 you were, could you see into this part of the village?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So which part of the village could you see? Because earlier you

13 said yes, you could see the village. Could you mark which parts you could

14 see.

15 A. All of this.

16 Q. And while you were there during the three or four days, you did

17 see two -- one or two houses burning, and you don't recall where? Do you

18 stand by this account?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And this part that you just encircled, you did not see any houses

21 burning?

22 A. I cannot really say. I was looking from the other side. I was

23 not looking from this perspective.

24 Q. And when you left the village, or when you left the location and

25 moved on to your next deployment, how would you describe the -- the state

Page 4702

1 of the village? Was it intact? Was it destroyed? What kind of

2 destruction, if any, did you see?

3 A. It was not destroyed.

4 Q. And the house in the vicinity of the Hajdari compound in which the

5 six prisoners of war were shot, you say in your statement it was burned.

6 When was that house burned?

7 A. I cannot tell you the exact date. Everything happened very

8 quickly, but it happened while we were there.

9 Q. Was it close to the killing event or the next day or the second

10 next?

11 A. I cannot tell you the time. I don't know.

12 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, that's as far as I think I can take it

13 on this point here.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


16 Q. Yes. Can we take a snapshot of the picture, please.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] ... Your Honours.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I have an objection to

20 this photograph. Your Honour, the reason is very simple.

21 If the Prosecutor wanted to test the witness, then it would have

22 been fair to have shown the photograph from the perspective from which he

23 was looking, and they have the resources to do that. This is an aerial

24 photograph, one. Second, it shows much more than he could have seen from

25 his position. And in fact, I don't see how this photograph can really

Page 4703

1 help us in terms of what the witness could or could not have seen.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: These are all issues of weight of the evidence and

3 they're matters on which you can cross-examine the witness, so we will

4 admit the snapshot.

5 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Can we call up Exhibit P2015, please. 2015.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.


9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this exhibit that the

10 Prosecution wants to show this witness now is, in our opinion, completely

11 inappropriate for admission through this witness and in general. This

12 witness, as he told us himself, used to be a junior sergeant in the

13 police, and he had no direct impact and no direct knowledge --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: First of all, what is this exhibit so that -- can I

15 see the English, please.

16 MS. MOELLER: The exhibit -- if I may assist, the exhibit is a

17 Joint Command order of the 23rd March, 1999, and we are not intending to

18 tender this document through the witness, but I would like him to comment

19 on the operation that is described therein and whether this relates in any

20 way to the operation that he participated in, in his opinion.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: In the light of that, Mr. Petrovic, do you maintain

22 the objection?

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am satisfied with

24 one part of the answer, namely when the Prosecutor says that she did not

25 intend and does not wish to tender this through this witness. That much

Page 4704

1 is okay. But all questions that may be asked of this witness go beyond

2 anything that he could have had direct knowledge about, and all such

3 questions would be inappropriate. So I'm happy with the answer, but I

4 don't think it is -- I think it is pointless to ask questions about this

5 document of this particular witness. Of course, it is up to you, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, these are the matters for argument in due

8 course. What the witness is going to be asked about is how what's set out

9 in the order compares with what happened on the ground, and that seems to

10 me a perfectly legitimate exercise, and indeed it may actually go to the

11 question of whether the document on its own might ever stand as a piece of

12 evidence on its own in due course because it could contribute to its --

13 our assessment of its reliability. However, for present purposes, all

14 that will happen is the part that's referred to will be admitted in the

15 context in which it was used so that we can fully understand the evidence

16 that's given, and we note the objection you take to the exhibit in

17 principle.

18 So carry on, please, Ms. Moeller.

19 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours. Indeed I have very

20 specific paragraphs I want to address. It would be page 3, paragraph 5

21 and 5.1. This is in both the English and the B/C/S version. It's the

22 same page and paragraph number.

23 Q. Sir, could you have a look at paragraph 5 and 5.1. Can you read

24 it? To yourself, I mean.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4705

1 Q. Would that generally reflect what you understood your unit was

2 taking part in, kind of operation?

3 A. This document shows some general operation that was likely, but

4 all I know about is the blockade of the road from Velika Krusa to Mala

5 Krusa, and I have not even heard of half of these places.

6 MS. MOELLER: Could we move then to Exhibit 1981, please. It

7 would be page 3, paragraphs 5.4 and 5.5 in the B/C/S version, and it would

8 be page 4 with the same paragraphs in the English version. And the

9 document that is pulled up is an order of the 449th Motorised Brigade,

10 dated 23rd March, 1999. Yes.

11 Can you zoom in paragraphs 5.4 and 5.5, please.

12 Q. Sir, could you have a look at these two paragraphs.

13 A. I don't have it on the screen in front of me. I don't have it.

14 Q. Do you have it now? Can you see it now? Okay.

15 Could you please look at paragraph 5.4 and 5.5.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour. I just have it in B/C/S.

17 I don't have it in English. I'd kind of like to see what it was.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Could we have the English version, please.

19 Can you get it, Mr. Ackerman, on your LiveNote screen?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: It's here now, Your Honour. I see it.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on.


23 Q. Sir, these two paragraphs, would they reflect generally what you

24 experienced and described in your statement as the operation of which your

25 unit was part of?

Page 4706

1 A. In paragraph 5.4, I didn't participate in that. That must have

2 been done the day before, since the wine cellar had already been liberated

3 by the time we arrived.

4 Q. And paragraph 5.5, what would you comment on this one?

5 A. We took part in that.

6 Q. Could we go to page 5 in the English version, paragraph 8.2. In

7 B/C/S, it's page 4 of the same document.

8 Can you have a look at 8.2. The first paragraph where it refers

9 to the wine cellars in Mala Krusa. You must mentioned the wine cellars.

10 Were you aware that this was a concentration point for prisoners of war to

11 be brought there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you.

14 MS. MOELLER: Can we now call up Exhibit P1995.

15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm sorry, Ms. Moeller, I need just a little bit

16 more time to digest the contents of each one.

17 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Certainly. Thank you.

18 Could we call up Exhibit P1995, please. And the first page in

19 both versions, please.

20 Q. This document is the analysis of an operation carried out, and

21 it's dated 30 March, 1999.

22 Sir, could you have a look at the first paragraph in this

23 document. It talks about an operation in the period between 25 and 29

24 March, so in the period when you were in the area around Mala Krusa.

25 Could you look at this paragraph and tell us whether that would generally

Page 4707

1 describe the operation you took part in?

2 A. In principle, it does show that, but I don't know about all the

3 locations mentioned here, and I don't know the exact details of the

4 operation because I was assigned my own separate area of responsibility.

5 Q. Very well. Could we go to page 3. In the English version page 3,

6 paragraph 6, and in the B/C/S version it is page 2, paragraph 2.

7 Sir, could you have a look at paragraph 2. The sentence starts

8 with "The formations of the VJ," and then further down it refers to MUP

9 forces having been engaged. Could you have a --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, again, the English version is not

11 available, so before there's any answers or anything, I'd like to see it.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Could we perhaps have the English version brought

13 up at the same time as the B/C/S in future so we're not delayed by this?

14 I take it yours, like mine, Mr. Ackerman, is set up for the

15 English to come on. You have to actually set it. Now mine's just

16 appeared on the screen only now.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, mine appeared at the same time as yours did,

18 Judge.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, so they're set that way, I think.

20 Ms. Moeller.


22 Q. Did you have a chance in the meantime to read the part listing the

23 MUP forces in paragraph two?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you see the detachment you were a member of in this list?

Page 4708

1 A. I can only see the 23rd detachment of the PJP and we were a part

2 of it.

3 Q. Thank you. Scrolling down a little bit. In the same paragraph it

4 says: "The total strength of the MUP forces in this overall operation was

5 1.020 men." To the best of your knowledge, would that be a realistic

6 number from what you observed in your area if you can comment on that?

7 A. Yes. That is it.

8 Q. And the overall number of all forces involved in this operation is

9 said to be around 2.000 men. What do you say to this number from your

10 experience in this operation?

11 A. I can't speak about the others, but this is the correct figure for

12 the PJP. I didn't meet the other ones, including the army, apart from the

13 force that was with us.

14 Q. Now, the same page, scrolling down to the bottom. It refers in

15 the last sentence on this page of the English version, it says: "The

16 coordinated action amongst the forces and the coordination with the MUP

17 forces were functioning well."

18 From your perspective, having been a part of the MUP forces, do

19 you share this assessment? Was the coordination between the VJ and the

20 MUP functioning well in this operation, the operation that you

21 participated in?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, the last document I would like to call up is

24 Exhibit 1989. And page 3, please, in both versions.

25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.

Page 4709

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

2 MR. IVETIC: I'm working under the assumption that this is --

3 what's listed as Exhibit P1089 in the 65 ter summary for this witness

4 which would be the minutes of a meeting at the MUP leadership in Kosovo as

5 it's listed.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the number that's been given I think was

7 1989.

8 MR. IVETIC: I know. And that's a number that I do not see on the

9 list.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, which one is it?

11 MS. MOELLER: It is 1989, and we informed the Defence after we

12 filed the notification that we had a -- had the wrong number put on the

13 notification.

14 MR. IVETIC: So I think I am talking about the minutes of the

15 meeting.

16 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

17 MR. IVETIC: Then I do have an objection to this document, Your

18 Honour, based upon the fact that the witness's statement is very clear and

19 the testimony given in the Milosevic case is very clear that he was never

20 present for any briefings apart from the one briefing in front of the PJP

21 commander and, therefore, I don't see how he can be asked to merely

22 speculate about places where he was not at if in fact this is what the

23 Prosecutor intends to do with this document. So I would object again to

24 it being admitted into evidence for the record. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.

Page 4710

1 MS. MOELLER: I'm not inviting the witness to speculate about

2 anything. I would just like to ask him whether he got ever to know about

3 such kind of meetings being held, because one of his commanders was

4 participating in this meeting.

5 MR. IVETIC: It sounds like speculation to me, Your Honour.

6 You're asking him to speculate.

7 MS. MOELLER: No. Asking him --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Please, I won't have argument directly between

9 counsel across the courtroom. The Court will be addressed and not parties

10 directly. I hope that's clear.

11 Let me hear your question.


13 Q. One of the persons listed in this document is Borislav Josipovic.

14 Was he the commander of your detachment?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did he or anyone else in your detachment or your immediate

17 unit ever tell you about meetings held between commanders of the PJP, the

18 SAJ, the JSO, the SUP chiefs, and under attendance of Sreten Lukic and

19 Nikola Sainovic as this one?

20 A. No.

21 Q. That would complete my questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that should allay your concern, Mr. Ivetic.

23 MS. MOELLER: No further questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, can we go back to P99, page 2, please.

25 MS. MOELLER: Certainly.

Page 4711

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we bring that up on the e-court. Now, Ms.

2 Moeller, in the evidence of either Krasniqi or Ramadani, there was a

3 photograph used to identify the location of the -- a building in which a

4 large number of people were held, I think overnight, until the morning of

5 the 26th. Can you recollect the number of that exhibit?

6 MS. MOELLER: I would have to check that, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Or can you tell me from this one roughly where that

8 building is located?

9 MS. MOELLER: Are you referring to the -- to the houses in

10 which -- in the compound of which the persons were then assembled and

11 separated out?


13 MS. MOELLER: These were the three houses in -- in the lower part

14 of the picture. It was in this area.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So we're at the bottom of the picture almost as far

16 as we can be from where the HQ for the witness was.

17 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I think that would be correct.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, can you remember where you were on

19 the morning of the 26th of March?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was at the position I had

21 indicated. Do you want me to show the place again?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I know where that is. I don't need to see it

23 again. When were you first aware that there was an allegation that over a

24 hundred males had been killed in a building into which initially certain

25 people shot and which was then set on fire?

Page 4712

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned of it for the first time

2 in 1999, by watching the BBC. By that time, everything had been

3 completed. I saw it on TV.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, when in 1999 do you maintain that you first

5 heard of it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once the war against NATO was

7 completed. Sometime after that.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in the location where you were based, how many

9 others were stationed there on the morning of the 26th of March?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Six or seven.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, Mr. O'Sullivan.

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. The order will be General

13 Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic,

14 and General Lazarevic.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, although I do have questions, Mr.

17 Ackerman has asked to precede me in the ordering, which I have agreed to,

18 so I'll be going after Mr. Ackerman.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. You were shown a -- a video a little while back of a telephone

25 conversation between you and a woman in Sarajevo, and when asked about it,

Page 4713

1 you said that that was part of the conversation, that it was not complete.

2 The question I have to ask you is the way it was cut or the portion that

3 was excerpted out, do you feel like that was unfair to you in any way in

4 terms of representing the conversation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in what way do you feel like it was unfair?

7 A. Because at the beginning, she asked me -- well, I can describe the

8 whole conversation and all the questions she asked.

9 Q. You can go ahead and do that if you'd like.

10 A. "Good afternoon, good afternoon. Sir, since you were in the area

11 of Velika and Mala Krusa between the 24th and the 29th of March 1999,

12 where some atrocities took place, what do you have to say about that? And

13 having in mind that your name was mentioned on one of the indictments of

14 The Hague Tribunal." These are the words she uttered that I remember very

15 well.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm wondering if we should be in

17 private session at this point. I don't know. I would --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm just wondering if we should be in private

20 session at this point. And I don't know. I'm -- I'm just wanting to make

21 sure we're protecting the identity of the witness, and maybe the witness

22 could tell us if he's going to tell us some things that might reveal

23 something.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, what do you have to say about that?

25 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I -- I don't see at this point any

Page 4714

1 reason, because I don't know where Mr. Ackerman is taking the witness.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, we're alert to it now, Mr.

3 Ackerman. I'm sorry I was momentarily distracted there, and carry on, and

4 if the problem appears to you to get any more likely, then let me know.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

6 Q. Mr. Witness, I'll ask you to go ahead and tell us the contents of

7 that conversation, and if you feel like it's going to disclose your

8 identity in any way, then please let me know and we can go into private

9 session.

10 A. Very well. Throughout the conversation, she tried to suggest that

11 I killed or we killed, and she tried to link us with the place where the

12 crime had taken place. And she kept saying, "Where you participated." So

13 the whole conversation boiled down to this "we" or "you."

14 Q. And so that was the part that was left out, is that your position?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that part that was left out, she was making specific

17 accusations against you; is that correct?

18 A. Now that I saw the footage again, and I realise this was edited by

19 a journalist, what I think is that they were trying to provoke me into

20 saying something that would benefit them. That's why they tried to

21 provoke.

22 Q. All right. Is there anything else you want to tell us about that

23 interview that you thought might have been unfair to you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In your statement, on page 4 you talk about being promoted to the

Page 4715

1 rank of corporal, and what you say about that was you were promoted. It

2 was for "recognition for being brave, sacrificing myself for my country,

3 and for exceptional achievements during NATO bombing of Kosovo."

4 When you talk about recognition for being brave, could you

5 describe for us what it was that you did that you felt was bravery, that

6 was recognised as bravery?

7 A. The promotion I received after the war in 1999 pertained to my

8 overall participation in the operations in Kosovo during 1998 and 1999.

9 It wasn't linked to one event specifically.

10 Q. Were -- were there times during your participation in Kosovo where

11 you were under enemy fire?

12 A. Yes, and almost in all operations. Not almost, in all operations.

13 Q. All right. I take it it's the case that you didn't expel any

14 Kosovo Albanians from their homes and force them to leave the country, did

15 you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And you would have reported anyone that you saw doing that,

18 wouldn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You didn't kill any innocent Albanian civilians, did you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You'd have reported anyone you saw doing that, wouldn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You didn't kill or mistreat any prisoners, did you?

25 A. No.

Page 4716

1 Q. And you would report it if you had discovered that that was

2 happening, wouldn't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you didn't shoot at any people in any villages who were not

5 shooting at you, and you would have reported anyone you saw doing that,

6 too, wouldn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, in your statement, you talk about a deployment at a place

9 call Jablanica, and you describe that deployment as desperate and useless.

10 Would I be correct in assuming that was because your unit was so heavily

11 outnumbered by the KLA forces there you could accomplish nothing at that

12 location?

13 A. As for desperate, I didn't say desperate. I even said for the

14 record that it was not an appropriate interpretation. But as for their

15 forces at Jablanica, they outnumbered and outgunned us by far when we were

16 doing that operation, and that's why it wasn't successful.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to talk to you very briefly about

18 the, I think, one or two times when you talked about the VJ being involved

19 in cooperating in the deployments that you were involved in. In all

20 cases, the -- the cooperation of the VJ was to provide heavy weaponry,

21 artillery, and tanks; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you never saw that heavy weaponry used against civilians in

24 any way, did you?

25 A. No.

Page 4717

1 Q. You never saw that VJ weaponry fired against any targets other

2 than those that were firing at you. Isn't that true?

3 A. It is.

4 Q. And isn't it a fact that -- that all the activity you saw on the

5 part of the VJ was honourable and correct activity for an army at war?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. At Velika and Mala Krusa, although you described it, there were VJ

8 vehicles there, tanks and others, they did not fire those weapons at all

9 at Velika and Mala Krusa, did they?

10 A. No. No. In that operation, they did not.

11 Q. What the VJ did there was sit in a very small sector of that road

12 and do nothing, and you didn't even see the soldiers get out of their

13 vehicles, did you?

14 A. Well, I did see them. We were their support, because they did not

15 have enough infantry.

16 Q. All right. You -- you indicated in your statement that this --

17 this compound where you were located, that you were using that camp

18 compound to shelter your vehicles and protect them from NATO air activity.

19 Do you remember saying that in your testimony in another trial here?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. What, if anything, was the VJ doing with regard to the -- the

22 equipment they had there to protect it from NATO attack?

23 A. They used camouflage.

24 Q. All right. Now, the unit you were in throughout the time that you

25 were part of that unit was engaged only in anti-terrorist actions and not

Page 4718

1 in activity against civilian populations. Isn't that true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There was a -- a moment in -- in the Milosevic trial where you

4 were asked, speaking of refugees that you had observed, you were asked by

5 the Prosecution this question: "Is it right that you and some of your

6 colleagues made provision for some of those people to have water where

7 otherwise they would not have had water?" And you said this: "I don't

8 understand why they wouldn't have had water otherwise. We policemen were

9 there. They were our citizens, and they got water."

10 That's what you said; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you said "they were our citizens" because you viewed them as

13 fellow citizens, didn't you? As victims of the KLA who were your fellow

14 citizens; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that view of yours that you've just expressed was a common

17 view among the people you served with in your unit, wasn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I have one more thing to talk to you about just in fairness to

20 you, sir.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: And to do that I'd like to go into private session,

22 Your Honour, for the protection of the identity of this witness.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We shall go into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 4719











11 Pages 4719-4721 redacted. Private session.















Page 4722

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

8 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the

9 attorneys representing Sreten Lukic in these proceedings, and I have a

10 number of questions to ask you today to try to clarify the testimony that

11 you gave in your statement in the Milosevic proceedings and here over the

12 past two days.

13 Now, first of all, one of the things you mentioned here in the

14 past two days was there were questions posed to you regarding Frenki's men

15 or the JSO. Just so I can be clear, when we're talking about the

16 deployment of your unit to the Mala Krusa area, am I correct that these

17 units, that is to say the JSO, to your knowledge did not participate in

18 this operation; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And in any event, when we're talking about the JSO, that is

21 a unit that falls under the jurisdiction of the state security services.

22 That would be the RDB; is that correct? The RDB.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And as -- as part of the RDB, that is in Serbian, the Resor Dzavne

25 Bezbednosti, the JSO and indeed all state security units were separate and

Page 4723

1 apart from the public security division or department of the MUP of the

2 Republic of Serbia; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: But still within the MUP. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


8 Q. All right. Now I'd like to clarify some issues with respect to

9 the organisation that you were a member of, the PJP. Now, first of all,

10 sir, from your statement I gather that you became a member of your SUP,

11 your secretariat's PJP detachment after completing the necessary training;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And even after completing your training to become a PJP member,

15 you remained an ordinary traffic policeman in the secretariat or the SUP

16 of the city where you were based; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at all times you and other members of the PJP would perform

19 your regular duties, in your case as a traffic policeman, but would be

20 then called upon to undertake security detail for specific tasks involving

21 greater risk; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And -- so that is to say the PJP is not the same thing as the SAJ.

24 The PJP is not a Special Police Unit whose members are permanently tasked

25 in carrying out special or anti-terrorist activities, is it?

Page 4724

1 A. Right.

2 Q. And am I correct in stating that the purpose of the PJP, when it

3 is deployed, is to prevent major disruptions of public order and peace and

4 in addition to preventing the infiltration of terrorists, includes such

5 things as attendance at public demonstrations, football matches and

6 rallies and to provide public security, that is to say, regular police

7 work?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now -- now, in relation to your PJP detachment, and if you have

10 knowledge of any other PJP detachments prior to 1999 and -- or let's --

11 prior to 1999, did you have occasion to be engaged in preserving the

12 public peace and order at other venues, including sports matches or other

13 public gatherings that presented a higher concentration of people in other

14 places within the Republic of Serbia, such as Belgrade, Novi Sad, et

15 cetera?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So that is to say the PJP was not a type of unit that was

18 specifically organised and only utilised to address the security concerns

19 in Kosovo and Metohija, was it?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. And when you would be called up and deployed as a PJP unit and

22 deployed in such cities as Belgrade, Novi Sad, or some other Serbian city,

23 your armaments would be similar to those you had on the ground in Kosovo.

24 Isn't that also right?

25 A. Yes, absolutely the same.

Page 4725

1 Q. And regardless of when you were deployed at sporting events in

2 Belgrade or Novi Sad or in the field in Kosovo and Metohija, at all times

3 the uniforms that you, the members of the PJP wore, regardless of whether

4 they were blue camouflage or green camouflage, these uniforms were clearly

5 and unmistakenly marked as belonging to the police. Isn't that right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And these uniforms, including any vests or jackets, could be

8 clearly identified from a distance by anyone viewing them because they

9 were clearly identified as the police; is that correct? Based upon the

10 insignia.

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Now, as a member of the Serbian MUP and also as a PJP member in

13 Kosovo and Metohija, you and your units never cooperated or engaged in any

14 joint actions with any paramilitary formations, did they?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And in fact, am I correct that the Serbian police had standing

17 orders to arrest and disarm and detain any and all paramilitaries that

18 were encountered on the terrain?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now, also, when you were -- when you became a member of the

21 PJP unit, am I correct that your rank within the police force, within the

22 PJP, was identical to the rank which you had had at that same time as a

23 regular traffic policeman?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And -- and these ranks that we talk about, actually, the ranks

Page 4726

1 that are similar to military ranks, that is sergeant, lieutenant, colonel,

2 et cetera, these ranks were not -- did not have the same meaning within

3 the hierarchy of the police as they did in the army; is that correct?

4 A. As far as I know, yes.

5 Q. Okay. And in fact, is it accurate that -- that SUP commanders,

6 nacelnici of the SUP, were equal to one another even though they may have

7 different ranks from one another?

8 A. I don't understand the question.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I've understood the previous answer as being that

10 the ranks were the same as military ranks in spite of your interpretation

11 of it, Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps I'll clarify then.



15 Q. Sir, would you clarify for us -- when you said as far as I know,

16 yes, were you trying to say the ranks were the same, had the same function

17 as in the military, or as far as you know they did not have the same

18 function as in the military?

19 JUDGE BONOMY: The question was the same meaning, not the same

20 function.

21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.

22 Q. Meaning.

23 A. No, they did not have the same meaning.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, it's my misunderstanding then.

25 MR. IVETIC: That's okay, Your Honour. I'm glad to have been able

Page 4727

1 to clarify it.

2 Q. Now, with respect to the -- with respect to the MUP, am I correct

3 that the chains of information and chains of command followed through

4 specific units and structures? Let me know if you can answer that, if you

5 can understand it. Otherwise, I'll break it down to some specifics.

6 A. That would be better.

7 Q. Okay. When we talk about the operation of your PJP unit, would it

8 be accurate to state that the lines of command and of informing flowed

9 through the PJP, that is to say you reported to PJP commanders rather than

10 to SUP commanders?

11 A. Yes. Precisely.

12 Q. Okay.

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe we're at around the time of

14 the break.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. I have just one question before we do break.

16 You were asked about standing orders to arrest, disarm, and detain all

17 paramilitaries encountered on the terrain. Did you ever arrest a

18 paramilitary?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because we did run into them.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you ever see anyone else arresting a

21 paramilitary?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never in my life have I seen

23 paramilitary formations in our territory.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. The transcript says no because we

Page 4728

1 did run into them. He in fact said we did not.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you. And just one final question on

3 the same subject although it might sound slightly repetitive. Have you

4 ever heard of a police officer arresting a paramilitary?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, we have to break for 20 minutes at this stage.

7 Please stay where you are until we leave the court and then you'll be

8 shown where to wait.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: We will go into closed session for the witness to

12 be brought in.

13 [Closed session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. K25, before the break we had discussed the uniforms worn by

22 the PJP, and I would like to ask you also about the uniforms worn by other

23 units of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia. With respect to the uniforms

24 worn by regular policemen and by reserve policemen, am I also correct that

25 those uniforms as well are clearly and conspicuously marked with emblems

Page 4729

1 and insignia so as to be readily identified as being the police of the

2 Republic of Serbia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And if we can now talk about one of the items you discuss

5 in your statement. It starts -- it's discussed at page 20 and at page 22,

6 and that's your identification of Sreten Lukic as the commander of all MUP

7 units in Kosovo. Am I correct that you never actually were present in the

8 Pristina MUP staff and therefore have no actual first-hand knowledge of

9 how that staff operated and what its role was, do you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And am I correct that you never met Sreten Lukic while he was in

12 Kosovo at any time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you have knowledge of the fact that there were several

15 other persons in Kosovo at the MUP staff, including Generals Djordjevic

16 and Stevanovic, both of whom were assistant ministers to the minister of

17 the interior Stojiljkovic? They were also in Pristina at various times.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, as far as your assertion as to what the MUP staff or the MUP

20 HQ --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you move on, is that question meant to

22 be based on what was thought to be publicly proclaimed the structure, or

23 is it based on actual presence within Kosovo?

24 MR. IVETIC: Are you asking about the question or the answer?

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, your previous questions were aimed at

Page 4730

1 establishing that the witness had no personal experience of Mr. Lukic ever

2 being in Kosovo. Now, I'll clarify the position myself.

3 But K25, can you tell me, did you meet any of these persons that

4 were just named in Kosovo?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That answered the question.


8 Q. Now, the -- the assertions in your statement where you talk about

9 the operations of the MUP HQ, as you call it, and of Sreten Lukic, am I

10 correct that you have no first-hand knowledge of any of that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And in fact, as far as all regular and reserve police units

13 in a given municipality are concerned, am I correct that they fall under

14 the jurisdiction and authority of the local municipal secretariat or SUP?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is this true upon the entire territory of the Republic of

17 Serbia, including outside of the province of Kosovo and Metohija?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And am I correct that in Kosovo, in Pristina at the time of 1998

20 and 1999, there was a Pristina secretariat or SUP that was also in

21 Pristina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And with respect to the PJP again, am I correct there was no

24 significant difference between the normal police salary and that of a

25 policeman who also was a member of the PJP?

Page 4731

1 A. There was some difference, but it was very little.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think I need to go into private

4 session. I have about five or six questions relating to his specific PJP

5 unit, and I would not like to disclose his identity to the public.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We shall go into private session to --

7 in the interests of the security of the witness.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4732

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

23 Q. Now, sir, during the time period that you were deployed in Kosovo

24 and Metohija as part of your PJP unit on several occasions in 1998 and

25 1999, am I correct to say that during those deployments you had the role

Page 4733

1 of an ordinary policeman, that is to say, you yourself were not in any

2 command or staresina position?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And in your first deployment that you state in your

5 statement, in March of 1998, am I correct that at that time the task of

6 your PJP unit was to secure the road between Klina and Srbica due to the

7 fact that armed terrorists had cut off that road and were conducting armed

8 attacks upon any traffic, civilian or otherwise, travelling on that road?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And -- now, you have mentioned that during that portion of your

11 tasking, in that deployment, you were involved in setting up and manning

12 checkpoints on the roadway. Now, if I can ask you, sir, am I correct that

13 these checkpoints were tasked with the objective of inspection of people

14 and vehicles to uncover any weapons, drugs, stolen goods, unlicensed

15 vehicles, persons with outstanding arrest warrants, crime suspects, et

16 cetera? Is that an accurate depiction of the duties that were undertaken

17 at these police checkpoints that were established?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And while we're talking about such police checkpoints, is it a

20 fact that they were used -- that we were not only used exclusively in

21 Kosovo and Metohija at the time, was it the regular practice of the

22 traffic police in the course of their normal duties to utilise such

23 checkpoints for the same reasons and in the same fashion all across

24 Serbia, and for example, in your home city where your SUP is located and

25 where you were a traffic policeman?

Page 4734

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And is it a fact that such traffic checkpoints are still in use

3 throughout Serbia even to this very day on a daily basis by the traffic

4 police of the Serbian MUP?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, later in 1998, your unit was again deployed in Kosovo to

7 secure and liberate the Pec-Decani road as well as the Prilep-Junik road

8 and hold a communication line by establishing checkpoints again in

9 villages of Gornji Streoci and Donji Streoci. Now, who was holding the

10 roads mentioned that you needed to liberate?

11 A. The Albanian terrorists.

12 Q. And these -- and these -- and these Albanian terrorists, how were

13 they controlling the road? Were they shooting at people? Did they have

14 checkpoints or roadblocks?

15 A. Both. They cut off road communication. They searched people and

16 vehicles. They opened fire at people and vehicles. Looted.

17 Q. Do you recall, sir, how long these Albanian terrorists had

18 controlled that area of Kosovo and Metohija, that roadway?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 Q. Do you recall what month you were deployed in Gornja Streoci and

21 Donji Streoci for the above mentioned tasks? Was it the possible that

22 this was at the end of the month of May in 1998?

23 A. I think it is possible.

24 Q. And do you recall if during that time one could not travel from

25 the city where you started out in Serbia, which I won't mention so as not

Page 4735

1 to bring your identity into question, am I correct that you could not

2 travel from that city into Kosovo and then go from Pec to Gornji and Donji

3 Streoci directly but rather you had to travel over Montenegro to get to

4 your location precisely because the Albanian terrorists, the UCK/KLA had

5 already blocked and disrupted the main roads from Pristina to Pec and

6 Mitrovica to Pec during that time period of approximately May, 1998?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. And while your unit held the road between Gornji and Donji

9 Streoci, did the KLA in fact engage in combat activities against your unit

10 or any other unit engaged in holding that road?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was there a similar checkpoint on the road in the village of

13 Ljubenic?

14 A. I don't know where that is.

15 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now, in the course of this deployment that we

16 are talking about in Gornji and Donji Streoci, do you know how many killed

17 or wounded policemen from your entire PJP detachment or other units that

18 manned those checkpoints, do you know how many killed or wounded policemen

19 there were?

20 A. I know there were casualties, but I don't know the exact figure.

21 Q. Okay. Now, my colleague, Mr. Ackerman, had already asked you

22 about the deployment to try and retake Jablanica. I would just like to

23 ask you with respect to that deployment, do you know -- did you -- did

24 your unit or the other units involved suffer any casualties as a result of

25 the actions -- the combat between yourselves and the armed terrorists in

Page 4736

1 that region?

2 A. If we are talking about Jablanica, there were no casualties on our

3 part there, but the exchange of fire was significant as far as I can

4 recall.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in your statement, after discussing these

6 deployments, you talk about, on page 5 of your statement, what you call

7 your "last infamous" field deployment as being the one to blockade and mop

8 up Junik and do the same with the mountain region by Junik. Now, am I

9 correct that the use of this term "infamous" by you in your statement

10 relates to the fact that a PJP position was subjected to friendly fire

11 from other forces, namely the Yugoslav army, whereby several policemen,

12 including a field commander, were killed or wounded?

13 A. When we were reading the transcript, I did mention that that was

14 not the appropriate word. It doesn't convey the meaning of what I had

15 intended to say.

16 Q. Okay. And for each of your deployments in Kosovo, is it correct

17 that your orders would be received from the various -- from within -- from

18 the various PJP commanders, the individuals we discussed previously in

19 private session?

20 A. Well, what it means, actually, is that we received orders from the

21 commander of our company.

22 Q. Okay. And is it correct -- is it correct that those orders that

23 you received from your superior officers, your commanders during your

24 deployments in Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999, am I correct that

25 your tasks were at all times to prevent terrorist attacks by the KLA

Page 4737

1 against civilians as well as against the MUP and the army? That is to say

2 you were protecting everyone in Kosovo from the terrorist attacks.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And am I correct that your unit never received any orders from

5 your police superiors to commit crimes against the civilians of Kosovo and

6 Metohija, did you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in fact, am I correct that you were ordered by your superiors

9 to safeguard civilian lives at all times during the carrying out of your

10 tasks? Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, specifically, when working and manning the checkpoints that

13 we discussed previously, and in taking -- and in undertaking the other

14 operations that you took part in, am I correct that you and your unit

15 never had any orders from superiors -- your superiors, superior police

16 officers, to engage in taking away identity documents from civilians and

17 destroying them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And looking at the transcript it looks like I need to re-ask the

20 question and -- at page 44 on line 7 because I asked a poor question that

21 the yes answer could be read both ways for.

22 Sir, did your unit ever receive any orders from your police

23 superiors to commit crimes against civilians in Kosovo?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I think that clears things up. Now, am I correct that there were

Page 4738

1 never any orders while manning the checkpoints or otherwise for you and

2 the other policemen that were with you to take money, jewellery, or

3 vehicles from these civilians? Is that correct?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I think I again asked a bad question. Were you ever given any

6 orders by your police superiors while manning the checkpoints to take

7 money, jewellery, or vehicles from Kosovo Albanian civilians?

8 A. No. We did not receive such orders.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, you had previously testified about the reserve --

10 reservists in Kosovo and Metohija who were assigned by the military

11 department to be in the police force. Is it a fact that due to the threat

12 of the KLA and the threat of NATO military attack against Kosovo and

13 Metohija that there was a general mobilisation covering the territory of

14 the province of Kosovo and Metohija at that time in 1999?

15 A. As far as I know, yes.

16 Q. And as part of such a general mobilisation, wouldn't it be a fact

17 that all reservists, whether army or -- whether assigned as army or police

18 reservists, would therefore have to maintain arms with them as opposed to

19 having the arms maintained in depots as was the case in Serbia proper at

20 that time?

21 A. Yes. They had to keep their weapons with them.

22 Q. Okay. And --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one thing. Was the general mobilisation

24 actually confined to Kosovo?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know.

Page 4739

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


3 Q. Now, I believe that in your direct examination you had said that

4 you thought all the reservists were assigned to the local police. Am I

5 correct that as a matter of fact you saw the persons, particularly in

6 Velika and Mala Krusa, wearing all types of uniforms, not just police

7 uniforms, as you stated in page 20, paragraph seven of your statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And as far as reservists are concerned, am I correct that uniforms

10 are issued to them, and they have those uniforms at all times, even when

11 they are not called up by the military district and assigned to a

12 particular role as part of a mobilisation? That is to say that persons in

13 the reserve maintain their uniforms at their home even at times when they

14 are not part of the active deployment of either the police or the army?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it from your earlier answers that you did

17 not regard any of the persons wearing these miscellaneous uniforms as

18 being paramilitaries. You regarded them all as part of regular forces or

19 reservists.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


23 Q. And as a follow-up to that: When you saw persons wearing these

24 various uniforms, since you were not from the region and did not know

25 anyone personally, you just assumed that these were members of the various

Page 4740

1 legitimate local forces; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I would like to be clear about that. You're now

5 saying something different. You're saying you just assumed that these

6 people were members of legitimate local forces. Did you have any reason

7 to doubt that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The local SUP, that is the

9 local policemen who participated with us in our operation, were drawn in

10 with exact positions on our maps that we received, so that I can't say

11 that I doubted, because I knew that they were policemen from SUP Prizren.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And are these the people you're referring to as

13 wearing a variety of uniforms?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people who passed by in

15 military uniforms, but to our right was the army of Yugoslavia with their

16 troops, so that they belonged to the army.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, if I may assist. On page 20, he

19 doesn't really say that the reservists were wearing a variety of uniforms.

20 He specifies, rather, which kind of uniforms the MUP reservists wore and

21 which the VJ reservists wore as far as I can see.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. You're referring to page 20 of the statement,

23 I take it.

24 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?

Page 4741

1 MS. MOELLER: I thought that's what my learned colleague referred

2 to.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: No. He has already had an answer from the witness

4 that people in Velika Krusa and Mala Krusa were wearing all sorts of

5 uniforms, and it's on that that he's followed through and on that that

6 I've asked a few questions. If you need to, you can deal with it in

7 re-examination.

8 Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. The three individuals, I believe you had said they were masked

11 individuals in the police uniforms who you saw robbing various civilians

12 on the roadway and whom your -- whom your commander confronted and tried

13 to stop. Am I correct that those individuals drove away in a vehicle that

14 was not a regular police vehicle?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And am I also correct that these persons, again these masked

17 persons in police uniforms, they were not operating a checkpoint, were

18 they?

19 A. That was the position of the local police.

20 Q. Okay. Now --

21 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I have a question here. Now, you had a mandate to

22 arrest people who indulged in such an activity. Why didn't you arrest

23 them when they were not the regular persons? They were driving a vehicle

24 which didn't belong to the police. Why didn't you arrest them?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they trained their guns at

Page 4742

1 us, and we trained our guns at them, and there would have been casualties

2 if we had done that. However, we did inform SUP Prizren, and sometimes

3 it's not good to run such risks, because on the other hand we were facing

4 a complete blockade, and we were subjected to terrorist action, and we

5 could not afford to enter into conflict with them.


7 Q. And in fact there were civilians around you who would have been

8 caught in the crossfire if there had been shooting. Is that also correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did these three persons, these masked persons in police uniforms,

11 did they then run away or escape? Is that the manner in which they got

12 into the vehicle or --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Or -- okay. Now, if I can direct your attention --

15 A. All -- all the time we had our guns trained at one another.

16 Q. Okay. Now, if I can draw your attention now to your deployment,

17 to the time of your deployment in Mala Krusa again, and specifically to

18 the instructions given by your overall commander. Did you personally

19 eyewitness the orders given by the commander, or were they conveyed to you

20 by your ceta, commander?

21 A. The commander of our company conveyed that to us, told us.

22 Q. Okay. Is it correct that the orders as conveyed to you were that

23 you were instructed by your superior officers in the police to offer

24 protection to any civilian villagers that chose to leave the village, as

25 well as to offer protection to civilians who chose to stay in the

Page 4743

1 villages? Do you recall that?

2 A. I don't remember that I received such an order, but generally

3 speaking, that is our duty, our regular duty, and I don't see why that

4 would have to be told expressly.

5 Q. In fact, that was understood and the regular duty of the police in

6 any operation; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That is a duty that arises under the law of the Republic of

9 Serbia; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And so am I correct that such a duty to afford protection to

12 civilians, this would have been offered by your unit and the other police

13 equally to both Albanian and Serb villagers? Is that correct?

14 A. I don't think I really understood the interpretation. Could the

15 interpreters repeat, please.

16 Yes. Yes.

17 Q. And just to clarify by that, I mean there -- there was no

18 distinction between how the Serb civilians or how the ethnic Albanian

19 civilians or even how any ethnicity of civilians was -- was to be treated?

20 A. Yes, of course.

21 Q. And while the operation was under way in the areas of Velika Krusa

22 and Mala Krusa, am I correct that the civilians that did leave those

23 villages were directed towards safety? That is to say they were directed

24 towards an area outside the zone of operations for their safety?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4744

1 Q. And was that so these civilians would not get caught in the

2 crossfire between the KLA forces and the Serb forces?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, in your statement you have described the operation in Mala

5 Krusa as a "mop-up" operation. Based upon your knowledge of the

6 activities of the police forces of the Republic of Serbia, am I correct in

7 concluding that such operations are aimed at mopping up or clearing an

8 area of terrorists and are not, in fact, directed against the civilian

9 population?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And is it also true, drawing upon your experience in other parts

12 of Serbia, is it also true that a mop-up operation would also be carried

13 out in other cities such as Belgrade or Novi Sad in order to remove any

14 organised concentration of criminals from a given area?

15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Has he the capacity to answer this question being

16 a person at the lower echelons, as you yourself --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE CHOWHAN: -- put it to him?

19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I believe he indicated he had been

20 deployed as part of a PJP unit to other cities. So I asked him to draw

21 upon that experience if in fact those operations were carried out in other

22 cities aimed at criminals. I can ask the gentleman to explain if in fact

23 that -- I can ask him if in fact he participated in such operations.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Please do that, Mr. Ivetic.

25 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

Page 4745

1 Q. Did you participate in any operations outside of the republic

2 of -- pardon, the province of Kosovo and Metohija that were termed mop-up

3 operations?

4 A. Yes, in the environs of Subotica when we had a serial killer, we

5 did the same clearing of terrain or combing of terrain looking for that

6 killer. In this case it was an individual, but that was the same kind of

7 operation, and the whole PJP was engaged.

8 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, were you familiar or --

9 were you familiar with a tactic of the armed terrorists in Kosovo, the

10 KLA, removing their uniforms and discarding their weapons and dressing in

11 civilian clothes to try and escape detection and get through Serbian

12 forces?

13 A. Yes, and they did that all the time.

14 Q. And am I correct that in this operation, the operation at Velika

15 Krusa, Mala Krusa, the local Prizren police were therefore endowed with

16 the duty to seek out and identify potential KLA amongst any of the

17 civilians based first on the information of their local RDB security

18 organs and by performing a triage to filter such people out from amongst

19 the legitimate civilians so they could be detained, arrested, and

20 subjected to the appropriate judicial proceedings?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the source of your knowledge about that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our order that we received when

24 performing operations. We received a map where it was indicated where the

25 checkpoint of the local police was and where the possible captives should

Page 4746

1 be directed. And when refugee convoys started moving, they told us to

2 send them towards the local SUP which would check whether there were any

3 terrorists amongst them, because they knew almost all the people.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Ivetic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Yes. Thank you.

6 Q. Now -- now, apart -- excuse me. Apart from the incident with the

7 three masked men who were trying to rob the civilians that your unit

8 stopped and the incident with the -- with the three men wearing police

9 uniforms whom you handed over the persons wearing the KLA uniforms, am I

10 correct that you did not witness any other criminal acts being undertaken

11 by anyone wearing a police uniform as part of this operation?

12 A. Correct. I did not observe.

13 Q. And dealing with these two incidents, am I correct that at all

14 times you saw no more than three total individuals wearing police uniforms

15 engaged in such acts?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Okay. Now, if I can have Exhibit P1326 brought up. This should

18 be one of the items that the witness looked at yesterday.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: We certainly had -- oh, yes, we did have 1326.


21 Q. Now, sir, you previously talked about the picture which is

22 labelled number 4 in this photograph, and I wanted to ask you about the

23 brown belt that is being worn by this individual in this picture. Is that

24 brown belt a part of the regular uniform of the Serbian police when it is

25 operating on the terrain?

Page 4747

1 A. No.

2 Q. And is that the reason why you identified this photograph

3 yesterday as probably being a police reservist?

4 A. Yes, and the fact that the man is not shaven.

5 Q. Does the Serbian MUP have such brown belts in the inventory of its

6 official equipment, it's official uniforms, brown leather?

7 A. As far as I know, no.

8 Q. And if I can ask you, based upon your knowledge and experience,

9 did you have any knowledge of incidents or reports of persons who misused

10 uniforms, that is to say the illegitimate use of police and other uniforms

11 by criminals on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

12 A. Yes. We heard such cases. In fact, I heard about such cases

13 wherein Albanians wore our uniforms trying to attract the attention of our

14 forces, and sometimes that resulted in exchanges of fire, and I believe in

15 one case in the death of one policeman.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, as far as the -- as far as your other

17 deployments, that is to say the deployments preceding your deployment to

18 Mala Krusa and your deployments after Mala Krusa, am I correct that during

19 none of these deployments did you witness any criminal acts carried out

20 against Kosovo Albanian civilians by your fellow policemen?

21 A. No, I did not witness that.

22 Q. Okay. And with respect to -- one moment. I need to find a

23 reference here. I don't have the reference in front of me, but in the

24 Milosevic proceedings, I believe you had testified that you were not

25 certain whether you had reported the -- the discovery of the bodies in the

Page 4748

1 house, and you yesterday testified that you had in fact reported it to

2 your unit or ceta, commander. Do you in fact actually know whether you

3 reported that and a report was generated, or do you not know whether in

4 fact a report was generated?

5 A. In the previous trial and in this trial, I said that we informed

6 the company commander about the incidents, but I can't remember exactly

7 when, whether it was on the same day or the following day, because the man

8 was constantly going back and forth across our positions, and he was not

9 always there with us. But I know that he also informed the commander of

10 the 23rd detachment in writing. And when, I couldn't say.

11 Q. All right. Now, sir, with -- I asked this question because

12 yesterday, the Trial Chamber was interested in the precise date that you

13 were -- that you ceased your employment with the MUP. With -- I don't

14 need to go -- know all the details of your employment, but am I correct

15 that your -- the cessation of your employment within the MUP was not in

16 any way tied to your testifying in the Milosevic proceedings?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Could you clarify? Was it -- was your cessation of employment

19 within the MUP tied to your testimony in the Milosevic proceedings?

20 A. No, it wasn't.

21 Q. Okay. And in fact, when you were first approached by the

22 Prosecutors of this Tribunal, isn't it a fact that you actually advised

23 your police superiors and reported them -- reported to them that in fact

24 you were speaking with the Prosecutor's office? That is to say, it was

25 not -- it was not a secret.

Page 4749

1 A. It was not. I informed them also in 1999 when that journalist

2 contacted me.

3 Q. And in fact, specifically with respect to your discussions with

4 the Office of the Prosecutor, isn't it correct that the Serbian MUP and

5 the Serbian authorities gave you the authorisation to talk freely with the

6 Office of the Prosecutor and even excused you from having to keep any

7 state secrets?

8 A. In principle, that is correct.

9 Q. Okay. Well, sir, I thank you for assisting me here today.

10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm completed with this witness.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Sepenuk.

12 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask a few questions by

17 way of clarification.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, well, I can't really address you with a K

20 and a number, but let us try and move on. My name is Toma Fila and I

21 wanted to assist you in trying to clarify the call-ups in Serbia and

22 Kosovo in times of peace and war. I wanted to ask you this: What are the

23 criteria when the reserve is being mobilised? For example, when you were

24 after that serial killer, who was called up?

25 A. Well, when we were after him there was no call-up.

Page 4750

1 Q. What is the criteria, then, when you are called up in peacetime to

2 serve with the reserves? What sort of a person is being called up?

3 A. Without any criminal offences and convictions, and with at least a

4 high school degree.

5 Q. This means that it is being carefully considered as to who will be

6 chosen so that they wouldn't disregard the dignity of the uniform.

7 A. Yes. And some inquiries would usually be made at his working

8 place and with the neighbours.

9 Q. But there was a difference with Kosovo, so can you explain to us

10 what type of people were called up there?

11 A. The local Serbs, because they were the only ones who were able to

12 help.

13 Q. So the criteria by that time were gone?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can we use this to explain the three people mentioned and that

16 these people had no respect for the uniforms such as the one you had and

17 the people in your unit?

18 A. Yes. We might say that.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Bakrac.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will be

23 very brief.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac,

Page 4751

1 counsel for General Lazarevic. My learned friends basically exhausted all

2 the topics I was interested in, but there is one left and I will have a

3 few questions for you.

4 In your statement and yesterday during examination-in-chief, you

5 stated that in the second half of 1998 the only operation in which VJ

6 support was provided to your unit was the MUP operation in Junik.

7 First of all, I'd like to know whether it is correct if I say that

8 Junik is 5 to 6 kilometres away from the state border with Albania.

9 A. Yes, it is correct.

10 Q. It is also correct that the closest border post is Kosare, which

11 on several occasions was taken by the Albanian terrorists?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Am I also correct in assuming that Junik, at the time of the

14 operation, was one of the major strongholds, well-fortified, of the

15 Albanian terrorists?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Am I also correct to assume that at the time of the operation

18 there were over 1.000 Albanian terrorists in Junik?

19 A. As far as I know, there were supposed to have been around 3.500.

20 Q. Having in mind the facts you've just confirmed and having in mind

21 the figure, and the fact that this was an important stronghold, am I right

22 in saying that the howitzer support from the Radonjic Lake was very

23 necessary to break the resistance and to secure the state border towards

24 Albania?

25 A. Yes. We were supported for 21 days by four tanks as well, and

Page 4752

1 this was not successful.

2 Q. Therefore, for 21 days, this is how long the combat lasted.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. My last question is this: Did you know, sir, that after that

5 operation in Junik foreign diplomats toured Junik and verified the results

6 of the operation?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

10 questions.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Ms. Moeller.

12 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:

14 Q. Just a couple of issues. Going back to the issue of civilian

15 vehicles being used. On page 12 of your statement, you talk about the

16 trucks and buses that were used to transport away the civilian population

17 from the area, and you state there that these were civilian trucks and

18 buses. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. When our company set out, the vehicles were given to us for

20 use, but issues -- certificates were issued, so the company took over the

21 vehicles and we were able to use them.

22 Q. I think we talked about two different kinds of vehicles now.

23 You're talking about the vehicles that brought you into Kosovo?

24 A. Yes. In the statement as well I describe that we received

25 civilian vehicles from the ministry of the interior, and they were

Page 4753

1 provided by various state and private companies. They did not have --

2 have any Ministry of the Interior insignia, but they were used for our

3 needs, and that could have taken place anywhere.

4 Q. Thank you. That's helpful. But I was actually referring to the

5 buses that came to help transport out the civilians out of the combat

6 zone, and I just want to clarify whether we understand correctly that

7 these buses only came after you and your unit called the SUP Prizren about

8 the huge number of -- of refugees that were arriving at the location and

9 that these buses that were then sent were indeed civilian vehicles as

10 well.

11 A. The first information of the arrival of refugees was received by

12 the Prizren SUP. They told us where we should concentrate them, and they

13 said they would provide transport. We put them all at the train station

14 in Velika and Mala Krusa, and then we provided transport on civilian

15 buses. They were manned by reserve policemen and professional policemen,

16 and there were also some people in civilian clothes as well as some of the

17 people in our uniforms.

18 Q. Thank you. And you explained further in your statement that the

19 police had actually in this situation the right to commandeer civilian

20 vehicles and use them for such operations, right, and that this was done?

21 A. Yes, but I've explained that as part of the previous question.

22 Q. And the VJ would have the same right to commandeer vehicles, would

23 they, in this particular situation?

24 A. I can only assume that it is so, but I am not certain. In times

25 of war, this is possible, I guess.

Page 4754

1 Q. Now, going to the questions of the insignias worn on PJP uniforms.

2 The issue was raised that PJP policemen would be easily distinguishable

3 from the insignias. We looked at the insignia yesterday in Exhibit P1323.

4 Where was this badge that we looked at, where would this badge be located

5 on the uniforms?

6 A. It was on the left and the right side.

7 Q. And approximately how big was such a badge in terms of centimetres

8 or ...

9 A. Say 15 or 20 centimetres. I don't know.

10 Q. And were there any other insignia that you would wear?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And you say in your statement on page 15 in relation to the

13 incident where you encountered these policemen who were trying to rob

14 civilians, that your commander on this occasion wore his ranks but that he

15 didn't wear them all the time. So would you wear your insignia all the

16 time, or would you also in combat situations wear different kinds of

17 insignia or less than in other situations?

18 A. In this case, it is not the question of our insignia but of rank.

19 Snipers were going for high -- higher-ranking officers. That's why we did

20 not wear rank.

21 Q. So it was usual that higher-ranking officers would not be

22 recognisable as such because they would not always wear their ranks in the

23 field?

24 A. None of us wore any rank insignia. And actually, we took them

25 off. They were unimportant.

Page 4755

1 Q. Now, we -- my learned colleague Mr. Ivetic also talked with you

2 about the role and the function of the PJP and the kind of training that

3 you received. Is it correct that the people who delivered the training to

4 the PJP included VJ military personnel as well?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is it also correct -- were you also instructed on the use of

7 specific weapons that would usually used only in combat situations?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you state which kind of weapons you were trained at?

10 A. Anti-personnel mines, the Wasp and Zolja rocket launchers and the

11 Browning machine-guns.

12 Q. So would it be logical to draw the inference from this training

13 that to participate in combat operations was also one of the roles of the

14 PJP that was envisaged for such units?

15 A. In principle, yes.

16 Q. Now, you were also asked questions about civilians leaving the

17 area of the operation and whether any documents were taken from such

18 people. You say in your statement that you saw approximately 5.000 people

19 or even more passing through this main road during the time you were

20 deployed in this area; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you had the instruction to hand these people over to the MUP;

23 is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then they would take further care of them?

Page 4756

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So do you actually know what happened to these people after you --

3 you handed them over to the MUP?

4 A. I know they were transported by buses, but not more than that.

5 Q. Did you know where they were transported to?

6 A. No. It was in the direction of Prizren.

7 Q. Okay. So you cannot say whether at any later point actually

8 documents were taken from these people, can you?

9 A. I cannot.

10 Q. You also say in your statement, and it's page 11 in the English

11 version, that you heard stories about forcible removal of people and --

12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour. I think I have to object. I don't

13 think that the statement is what is the subject of redirect. I think what

14 was in the cross-examination that would have to be the subject of

15 redirect.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, what's the issue that arises from

17 cross-examination?

18 MS. MOELLER: The issue is people were possibly expelled, and I

19 think Mr. Ackerman asked the witness in the beginning of his

20 cross-examination whether he ever recognised people being forcibly

21 expelled.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's not exactly right. I asked him if he

23 ever did that, and he said he didn't. And if he saw anyone doing it would

24 he report it, and he said he would. That's exactly what I asked and what

25 was answered. I don't think that's raised, this issue.

Page 4757

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think the Prosecution are entitled to

2 clarify the issue that Ms. Moeller identifies. I don't think the way to

3 do it is immediately in asking the witness about the issue to direct his

4 attention to his statement. Let's have open questions in re-examination

5 and then if necessary the statement can be used to confront him.

6 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours. I'll try my best.

7 Q. Sir, did you talk to -- did you talk to some of the civilians of

8 these 5.000 civilians that passed along the street during the time you

9 were there? For instance, when you organised to have them given water.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did they tell you how -- how they came to be there in the

12 location where you met them?

13 A. They told different stories.

14 Q. And what kind of stories would they tell?

15 A. That we forced them out, that the KLA attacked them, that they

16 were being bombed. They were telling all sorts of stories.

17 Q. Now, another question put to you in cross-examination concerned

18 the reserve forces, and you -- that was when my learned colleague Mr. Fila

19 asked you, and you gave an answer to the extent saying only local Serbs

20 could help, could be part of the reserve forces in Kosovo. Why couldn't

21 loyal non-Serbs and any other ethnicities living in Kosovo be called up

22 into the reserve, which I understood was also part of -- called up partly

23 to prepare for a potential NATO attack? Why couldn't they be in the local

24 reserve?

25 A. Because they were not considered as being trustworthy. They

Page 4758

1 couldn't have been engaged by our side. And they also asked not to be.

2 There was not a single loyal Albanian who could have said, "Please, do

3 mobilise me," at that time.

4 Q. Okay. Another issue raised was the issue of people putting on

5 uniforms of a unit they didn't belong to. Did you ever notice or know

6 about Serb forces sometimes putting on KLA uniforms in operations to get

7 closer to them in a strategic way?

8 A. No, I don't know of such a thing.

9 Q. Now, the last issue. You were asked about some events shortly

10 after you were contacted for the first time by the Tribunal. After the

11 Tribunal contacted you and wanted you to testify here the first time, were

12 you ever called in a meeting where representatives (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. And who called that meeting?

16 A. In 1999, they asked me to come once I had told them that I was

17 contacted by journalists.

18 Q. And can you describe how that meeting went along? Who was

19 present?

20 A. I rather wouldn't, if I may refuse to answer.

21 MS. MOELLER: Can we maybe go into private session, and the

22 witness may be able to tell us more about this event.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It will be the same.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: What's your reason for refusing to answer?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are no reasons. I will reply.

Page 4759

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you wish to do so in private session?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll go into private session because

4 the witness seems concerned about his security.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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Page 4760











11 Pages 4760-4762 redacted. Private session.















Page 4763

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24 [Open session]

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Page 4764











11 Page 4764 redacted.















Page 4765

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3 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. We'll go into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

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9 (redacted)

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Page 4766











11 Pages 4766-4767 redacted. Private session.















Page 4768

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, who is the next witness?

13 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, the next witness is K24, also a

14 protected witness who will be handled in closed session with a pseudonym.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So when the court resumes after this break, we will

16 resume in closed session with the witness already in place. All right.

17 So thank you, K25, for your evidence. The Court will now rise and

18 resume again at 20 minutes past 6.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.52 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 6.24 p.m.

21 [Closed session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4769











11 Pages 4769-4788 redacted. Closed session.















Page 4789

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17 (redacted)

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.14 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 13th day

20 of October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.