Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4885

1 Monday, 16 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning.

6 Who is the first witness today?

7 MS. DRAGULEV: Good morning, Your Honours. The first witness

8 today is Ndrec Konaj, and we're calling him pursuant to 92 ter. His

9 evidence pertains to paragraphs 72(e), 77, and 100 of the indictment.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Konaj.

13 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you stand, please, for a moment.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

17 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed

18 before you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

21 and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Please be seated.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Konaj, we have before us your statement,

25 so we know a great deal about your evidence already, but you are going to

Page 4886

1 be asked questions by a number of counsel to explain parts of the

2 statement, perhaps to challenge parts of the statement, and also perhaps

3 to add to it. The first counsel to question you will be for the

4 Prosecutor and that will be Ms. Dragulev.

5 Ms. Dragulev.

6 MS. DRAGULEV: [Microphone not activated].

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor.

8 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examination by Ms. Dragulev:

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Konaj.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Could you please state your first name and your last name for the

15 record.

16 A. Ndrec Konaj.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Konaj, did you provide a statement to the Office

18 of the Prosecutor dated the 12th of June, 2001?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And have you had an opportunity to review this statement in

21 Albanian during your proofing session last week?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And based on your review, did you make some minor corrections to

24 the statement?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4887

1 Q. Thank you. One of those corrections was to page 2, paragraph 3 of

2 your statement, where you refer to the change of the situation between the

3 Serbian and Albanian neighbours as having occurred about 16 months ago.

4 In the statement, it says it was the first Saturday in July 1998. At the

5 time you gave the statement in June 2001, more than 16 months would have

6 passed since July 1998. Is that correct?

7 A. No. It's from 1998 that 16 months had passed. I made the -- when

8 I made the changes, it was later.

9 Q. That's right. Thank you. And the other correction that you made

10 was the reference to Salih Dreshaj. In the English version of your

11 statement he's referred to as your best man; in the Albanian version he's

12 referred to as your best friend. And in fact, he's your godfather. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. Well, his son held my son's daughter on his

15 arms, in his arms, and that's why we call him a godfather.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the church.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's deal with both of these. Is 1998 the correct

20 date?


22 JUDGE BONOMY: So does that mean that this statement has been

23 altered?

24 MS. DRAGULEV: No, Your Honour. This was just a correction. The

25 reference to --

Page 4888

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the one I have, which is the statement taken

2 in June of 2001, has the date July 1998.

3 MS. DRAGULEV: Yes, and that's a correct date, but there's a

4 reference as to that date having occurred 16 months ago.


6 MS. DRAGULEV: And that reference is incorrect.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: So it's the 16 months we're concerned with.

8 MS. DRAGULEV: Yes, exactly.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. And the relationship we've just heard about

10 sounds like maybe the godfather of his granddaughter. Is that what --

11 MS. DRAGULEV: That's --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: -- you're really trying to say?

13 MS. DRAGULEV: I was just trying to point out that there was a

14 minor correction; that this Salih Dreshaj is not the best man but the

15 godfather.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, godfather to the granddaughter.


18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, where is the reference to that in the

19 statement?

20 MS. DRAGULEV: That is the second paragraph on the top of page 4

21 in the statement. The English ERN is K0203784.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thanks very much.


24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Having made those two corrections, is your

25 statement true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge and

Page 4889

1 recollection?

2 A. Yes, it's correct and true. I said everything in the first one,

3 and the second one is also correct, very correct.

4 Q. Thank you. And can you confirm to this Court that that evidence

5 is what you would give under oath today if you were asked the same

6 questions?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honours, we would like to tender Exhibit

10 P2372, which is the statement dated the 12th of June, 2001.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Konaj, I would like to move to the events that occurred in

14 Pec/Peje in March 1999. In your statement you said you saw two Pinzgauers

15 at a gas station on that day; one was military and the other was police.

16 Can you please describe the one that you identified as a military

17 Pinzgauer. What colour was it?

18 A. Blue.

19 Q. Thank you. And what colour was the military Pinzgauer?

20 A. Green, camouflage.

21 Q. And after that incident, you continued towards the bus station,

22 and in your statement, you describe that at every side road there were

23 three or four military or police. Could you please briefly describe the

24 police. Did they wear uniforms?

25 A. Their own uniforms.

Page 4890

1 Q. And what colour were those uniforms?

2 A. There were blue uniforms and also green uniforms. I don't know

3 whether they were soldiers or paramilitaries; they had camouflage

4 trousers.

5 Q. Thank you. On the 28th of March, 1999, when you left the house of

6 Salih Dreshaj to join the crowds, you state that there were police, army,

7 and paramilitary troops located at the entrance of every street. Could

8 you please briefly describe the police. Did they wear uniforms?

9 A. There were police in uniforms as well.

10 Q. And what colour were those uniforms?

11 A. Blue.

12 Q. And could you please briefly describe the military. Did they wear

13 uniforms?

14 A. As I said earlier, they wore green uniforms.

15 Q. And the paramilitaries, did they wear uniforms?

16 A. There were ones with green camouflage trousers, with black

17 T-shirts, various kinds of clothes, I would say.

18 Q. Thank you. My last question, Mr. Konaj, relates to your return to

19 Pec. When you returned to Pec, did you see any damaged houses?

20 A. Yes, of course. Peje was one of the most destroyed towns as far

21 as houses are concerned.

22 Q. And did you see any damaged mosques or religious sites?

23 A. Yes, there were damaged mosques as well.

24 Q. Did you see any damaged churches?

25 A. The churches were not damaged because there were people sheltered

Page 4891

1 in there, and the priests were there as well so ...

2 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Konaj.

3 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

4 questions at this point.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Ms. Dragulev.

6 Mr. O'Sullivan.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we'll follow the indictment, and I

8 have no questions.


10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no questions

11 either.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.

13 MR. SEPENUK: Yes, no questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic.

15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no

16 questions either.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I do have questions, Your Honour.

19 Thank you.


21 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Konaj. My name is Djuro

23 Cepic. I'm one of the Defence team of General Lazarevic. I would like to

24 clarify a few points with you. I will try to ask short, clear, and

25 concise questions, and I would appreciate answers of the same kind,

Page 4892

1 preferably with a yes or a no.

2 On the sixth page of the transcript today, you enumerated persons

3 you encountered on the 24th of March. You said it was a group of about 30

4 persons, some wearing blue uniforms, whom you believed to be members of

5 the MUP --

6 MS. DRAGULEV: Your Honour, I think the reference to the date is

7 incorrect. It was not the 24th of March. I think it was the 27th of

8 March, or the 28th --

9 MR. CEPIC: No, no, I said "28th." Probably it is a problem with

10 interpretation. Yes. Thank you.

11 Your Honour, may I continue, please?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please, Mr. Cepic.

13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] And as I said, you believed that members of the

15 MUP, that is the police, had blue uniforms; members of the army, green

16 uniforms; the paramilitaries wore various uniforms, and so on. The

17 persons you encountered on that day were between 30 and 35 or 40 years of

18 age. Is that correct?

19 A. I never said what their age was in my statement. There is no

20 sentences in my statement about their age.

21 Q. No. I'm asking you now for clarification.

22 A. I couldn't say exactly what age. About 30, I don't know, older or

23 younger than that.

24 Q. There were persons who were unshaven, with moustaches, and

25 beards. Is that correct? Among them, I mean.

Page 4893

1 A. Yes, there were such people, but it was not asked of me.

2 Q. And among those wearing green uniforms, you didn't see any

3 insignia or emblems. Is that correct?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 Q. They didn't wear caps either. Isn't that correct?

6 A. On the way, I saw people with hats. I also saw people wearing

7 bandannas, some of them.

8 Q. I mean just the group of 30 persons that I mentioned from the 28th

9 of March.

10 A. Yes, but I can't remember this 30 persons, ever mentioning it in

11 my statement. I can't remember how many there were on the street or on

12 the road.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. You did mention around 30 members, but

14 it's not necessary to clarify that in particular. You also mentioned

15 today that you mentioned two Pinzgauer vehicles.

16 A. Yes, yes. I apologise. Yes.

17 Q. You said one was blue and the other was camouflage colours. On

18 those vehicles you did not see any signs - isn't that correct - that were

19 at the petrol station?

20 A. No, I did not see any insignia, but the ones wearing blue were

21 policemen. Those in camouflage uniforms, I don't know about them. I

22 didn't write anything about them.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: We seem to be at cross-purposes, Mr. Cepic. Your

24 question is about the vehicles; the answer is about uniforms. And that's

25 because we've leapt from the 30 people to the two Pinzgauers, without

Page 4894

1 perhaps finishing off the question of the 30 individuals that the witness

2 now seems to recollect speaking about. Would it not be worth putting his

3 statement to him to get that clarified?

4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Konaj, you mentioned in your statement, when you reached the

6 secondary school of economics, you encountered a group of 30 individuals,

7 including members of the army, the MUP, the paramilitaries.

8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] In the English statement, it's page 4,

9 paragraph 6. If my learned friends from the Prosecution could help Mr.

10 Konaj locate this paragraph in the Albanian version, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got it.

12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you follow me, Mr. Konaj?

14 A. Here, in paragraph 6, I've got it.

15 Q. Our discussion of a moment ago, did it relate to this part of your

16 statement, the descriptions referred to?

17 A. Yes, but you're mixing it up. You said 30 policemen, and so on.

18 But it's true, because at the economic school we were turned back. We

19 were not allowed to go towards Montenegro. Only the ones who had vehicles

20 were allowed to go to Montenegro; the ones on foot were turned back.

21 Q. So, in conclusion, this description you've given about the age,

22 appearance, and all the details you mention relates to this group of

23 people. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, but I was never asked about their ages. This is the first

25 time somebody is asking me about their ages. I couldn't say whether they

Page 4895

1 were 30 or older or younger.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Could we move to the second point I've

3 embarked upon, relating to the two Pinzgauer vehicles you said you saw at

4 the petrol station on the 27th of March. In your statement it is --

5 A. Not at the station. It's the petrol station in the centre of

6 town, when we were expelled from our homes and told to go towards

7 Montenegro. That's where the Pinzgauer was. There was one Pinzgauer and

8 another one that looked like a police tank. The policemen stopped us to

9 go -- they did not allow us to go in the main road, and these were at the

10 police -- sorry, at the petrol station, 10 or 12 metres away.

11 Q. So near those vehicles you saw only policemen.

12 A. No, no. There were policemen there. There were soldiers on the

13 tank. I couldn't say whether they were soldiers or paramilitaries, I'm

14 not sure. But this one was a police vehicle. It was blue and had very

15 big tires.

16 Q. Mr. Konaj, when you say "tank," you mean this armoured jeep. Is

17 that correct?

18 A. Well, a tank that has a big gun barrel, and it was camouflage,

19 green/blue camouflage.

20 Q. And it has rubber wheels; right?

21 A. I could not see. I did not see whether it had rubber wheels, the

22 ones of the army, or whether it had track chains.

23 Q. Let us clarify this. In your statement in English, page 3,

24 paragraph 4, you said:

25 "We set out on foot to the stone bridge, where we were stopped by

Page 4896

1 two paramilitary soldiers. They had come out from the Stari Most cafe.

2 They were dressed in camouflage uniforms and no caps. When we arrived at

3 the petrol station, there were two Pinzgauers there; one military,

4 another, a police one."

5 That's your statement from 2001. Today, in response to a question

6 from the Prosecutor, you gave us a clarification, saying that one

7 Pinzgauer was blue and the other was green camouflage. You now mention a

8 tank. Could one of the two Pinzgauers have been an armoured jeep? That's

9 what I'm asking, since you are making a confusion.

10 A. Please allow me to explain. I did not say "uniforms and masks" --

11 you -- I said in the statement -- I probably said two Pinzgauers, but one

12 of them was a blue one and then there was this tank, another vehicle, and

13 that was of the army. And they did not wear masks; they had no masks on.

14 Look at the statement.

15 Q. I am reading your own sentence back to you. You say there were

16 two Pinzgauers. There is no reference to a tank.

17 A. It was a little different because it had a gun barrel like a

18 cannon barrel; that's why I said it was of the army. I was not a soldier,

19 so I did not know exactly what it was.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Konaj, the vehicle you describe as a Pinzgauer,

21 tell us what that looked like, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The police Pinzgauer, a

23 Pinzgauer or a tank, it had big wheels and it was blue, sky colour, dark;

24 while the other one, the tank Pinzgauer, which was of the army, it was

25 green camouflage and had this gun barrel, very long gun barrel.

Page 4897

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it the Pinzgauer looked like a vehicle and

2 it had a seat for a driver that was obvious to you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had big tires, the police

4 Pinzgauer. It was something that you got in from up -- it's not something

5 that you had a door to go in. It has a turret.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: This is the one without the gun barrel.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And the one with the gun barrel, how would the

9 driver get into it?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From up -- from up there.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: So through -- from the top.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw one person, that his body --

13 you could see his half body from there, and it also had a side door.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Mr. Cepic.

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Konaj, do you have a driving licence?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you are able to drive?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you know how to distinguish between a truck, a passenger car,

21 a bus. Can you distinguish between those; yes or no?

22 A. I believe I can, yes.

23 Q. So why are you telling us now something quite different from what

24 you said in 2001? You will agree with me that your memory was much

25 fresher in 2001.

Page 4898

1 A. Everything that I said in my statement is true, and I am

2 responsible for everything that I said. And if you find anything, a

3 discrepancy, let me know and I will explain it. As for your questions

4 about the tanks, everybody knows how the tanks look like. They were on

5 TV. What colour they were, what make, everybody could see that.

6 Q. Mr. Konaj, we heard quite a different story from you here today,

7 but let us go back to another topic since you seem to have provided clear

8 answers on this. Did you cooperate in any way with the KLA?

9 A. Your Honours, allow me, please, to explain.


11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't understand the

12 counsel when he says that we are dealing with a totally different

13 statement. We have the statement before us. I want the counsel to

14 explain why he says it's a different statement. If we are

15 misunderstanding each other, let us explain it, because there's nothing

16 different from what I've said in my statement.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think I can explain that to you, Mr.

18 Konaj. A Pinzgauer, as we understand it, is a sort of truck that would

19 have side doors for people to go into and it carries a number of military

20 personnel. I don't think, from the evidence we've so far, that you get

21 into a Pinzgauer from the top, which is what you've described. And your

22 statement also makes no reference to either of these vehicles that you

23 describe as a Pinzgauer having a barrel or being a tank. So we're getting

24 a completely different version of the vehicles - that's what counsel is

25 saying - a completely different description of the vehicles today from the

Page 4899

1 one that you appear to have given in the statement. But in the statement,

2 you simply refer to them as Pinzgauers and there may be a misunderstanding

3 in there. So what counsel is trying to do is clarify it, because there's

4 certainly nothing in here to indicate that one of these vehicles might

5 have been a tank.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, then. It is true that,

7 in my statement, I've mentioned two Pinzgauers, and that is because I

8 couldn't tell between different vehicle makes. I was never in the army.

9 I wasn't an expert. The police Pinzgauer had big tires and was blue,

10 while the military one was green camouflage. I haven't described it in

11 detail in the statement because I wasn't asked to do that, but now the

12 counsel asked me to and that's why I explained the details. The second

13 one had the barrel. If I said two Pinzgauers, then it must have been my

14 mistake. But the truth of it is that one was of them was of the police

15 and the other of the military, and they were different colours.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And, Mr. Konaj, the one with the barrel, on what

17 did it move? Did it have tracks or wheels?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, I really

19 can't remember. I don't know if it was on wheels or tracks.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And the one that you describe as police Pinzgauer,

21 which I think you have told us you would enter from the top, on what basis

22 did you judge that it was the police -- it belonged to the police?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only on the basis of its colour and

24 the fact that a person wearing a blue uniform was on top of it. I haven't

25 mentioned this in my statement because I wasn't asked to explain.

Page 4900

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that, but that doesn't prevent counsel

2 from going into the details with you. That's a perfectly proper exercise,

3 and that's why you're here, to clarify these things, so that we are not

4 left in doubt.

5 And just finally, to complete this, the colour of the vehicle that

6 you describe as a police vehicle, remind us of that colour.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Blue.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in your evidence earlier today, you described

9 it as green. So, again, we have a measure of confusion --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always said that the police

11 Pinzgauer was blue. It can't be of any other colour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I think the

13 evidence recorded early was that it was green. However, let's move on to

14 Mr. Cepic again.

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Konaj, you cannot recall all the details precisely - isn't

17 that correct - when it comes to the vehicles, that is?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. What sort of cooperation did

20 you have with the KLA?

21 A. No. No.

22 Q. You didn't have any. Mr. Konaj, you testified in the Milosevic

23 case on the 25th of April, 2002.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In that proceeding, in the transcript, page 3792, you said you

Page 4901

1 were familiar with the book by Tahir Zemaj, "Comments about War," where

2 the KLA attack against the village of Lodza is described, and the attack

3 was dated the 5th of July, 1998 and you mentioned that on page 2 of your

4 statement. Are you familiar with this book, indeed?

5 A. It is true that I said that I heard that Tahir Zemaj's book was

6 published, but not that I had it or that I read it. And Judge May drew

7 his attention to the statement and not to this book, because it was not me

8 who published that book. That book was published by someone else.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no more questions

11 for this witness. I suppose that some of my learned friends from the

12 Defence will deal with the Milosevic transcript some more, and that should

13 be 3D129. This is from the Milosevic case, and I would kindly ask that

14 this portion be entered.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

16 Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

19 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic. I am one of the Defence

20 counsel for Sreten Lukic here today, and I have a number of questions for

21 you. So I would ask you to pay attention to my question so you can give

22 me the most concise and truthful answer possible, since we do have limited

23 time here.

24 Now, first of all, sir, I would like to ask you a question

25 relating to the location of your home within Pec. Could you please tell

Page 4902

1 us where your home was located in 1998 and 19 -- first of all, in 1998, in

2 relation to the centre of Pec and the suburbs of Pec.

3 A. In relation to the centre of Peje, it is about 3 kilometres far.

4 Q. And how far is your neighbourhood from the village or suburb of

5 Lodza?

6 A. If you go through the main road, the usual road, it's about 5 or 6

7 kilometres, but as the crow flies, it's about 1 and a half kilometres, I

8 would say.

9 Q. And how far is your neighbourhood from the so-called JNA barracks?

10 A. Approximately about 2 kilometres. They are closer to the town

11 than to my house.

12 Q. Okay. And according to your statement, on the first Saturday of

13 July in 1998, you sent your family to your father's house, which was in

14 the centre of Pec, based upon a premonition of your wife that something

15 bad was going to happen. Am I correct that other Albanian neighbours in

16 your neighbourhood also did likewise; that is to say, they sent family

17 members to spend the night in the centre of Pec rather than in their own

18 neighbourhood, around that same period of time?

19 A. At that time I was almost the only person living there. That part

20 has houses that had been built, but nobody lives in those houses. There

21 are houses that they're using for manufacturing wood and other materials;

22 there are houses where they sell car parts, and so on.

23 Q. Okay. And were there any ethnic Serb neighbours in that

24 neighbourhood at that time, in early July of 1998?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4903

1 Q. And did the neighbourhood that you lived in have a separate name?

2 A. You mean the neighbourhood where I lived? We called it Dardanija

3 1. Or are you referring to the neighbourhood inhabited by Serbs? It's

4 not clear to me. Could you please explain.

5 Q. I believe I was asking about the neighbourhood where you live,

6 which I believe you have given an answer to, so I will move on.

7 Now, at 10.30, according to your statement, at 10.30 in the

8 morning following the date when you sent -- when you went to your father's

9 house in the centre of Pec based upon your wife's premonition, you talk

10 about explosions in the direction of Lodza village. Did you at some time,

11 either at that point in time or thereafter, discover that the explosions

12 had been from fierce fighting between the UCK/KLA and Serb forces in Lodza

13 that had caused these explosions?

14 A. Could you please repeat your question.

15 Q. In relation to the explosions coming from the direction of Lodza

16 village or suburb at 10.30 in the morning, following your departure

17 towards the centre of Pec in July of 1998, did you at that time or at some

18 time thereafter discover that the source of the explosions had been an

19 attack perpetrated by the UCK/KLA against Serb forces in Lodza village?

20 A. No, I didn't know anything.

21 Q. Okay. And you've mentioned already, in response to my colleague,

22 the book by Mr. Zemaj. Are you familiar with or have you since that time

23 heard any other pronouncements by Ramush Haradinaj or any other KLA

24 commanders praising the operation in Lodza as one of the most successful

25 operations and attacks conducted by the KLA in the Pec region in 1998?

Page 4904

1 A. No.

2 Q. In the Milosevic proceedings, you were asked about your knowledge

3 of your brother's involvement in the KLA; at that time you did not know of

4 it. Since the time of your testimony in the Milosevic proceedings, have

5 you had the opportunity to be enlightened any further about the

6 involvement of your brother in the UCK/KLA movement?

7 A. He hasn't been in Kosova for 16 years. He now received all the

8 paper that allows him to come back to Kosova. He still has not come to

9 Kosova, and you can check this very easily.

10 Q. Sir, in the Milosevic proceedings, there was discussion about your

11 brother's involvement with fund-raising and organisation of the KLA in

12 Germany. I'm asking you about that. Have you had an opportunity to

13 become further enlightened about your brother's involvement in the KLA

14 since the testimony that you gave in the Milosevic case; if not, just say

15 so.

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. Okay. Now, if we could focus just for a brief couple more

18 questions regarding this time period in July of 1998 and the nearby suburb

19 of Lodza. Did you, at any point in time, witness any of the many trenches

20 and fortifications that had been established in and around the Lodza

21 suburb, which was 1 kilometre, as the crow flies, from your home

22 neighbourhood, in July of 1998, or previously?

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. And did you have occasion to become familiar with the infamous

25 attack that the KLA undertook in Lodza on July the 5th, 1998, wherein a

Page 4905

1 police vehicle was attacked by a hand-held rocket-launcher, resulting in

2 ten wounded casualties among the police and the taking hostage of two

3 policemen, Perovic and Rajkovic, who were then brutally tortured by the

4 KLA, and their dead bodies, which were mutilated, were discovered 40 days

5 after this action, again in 1998?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Konaj, do you know nothing at all about this?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't know about it then. I

9 hear it here, now. I had to look after my family, my wife, my children,

10 and my mother-in-law, who was 84 years old at that time. I was only

11 concerned to leave for their sake.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: These are events 5 or 6 kilometres by road, and

13 closer as the crow flies, from where you were living, and you heard

14 nothing about them at all until you come here?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know about these things

16 then because I was not interested in such things. I've stated in my

17 statement that you could hear gun-fire every now and then; that is true,

18 I've heard gun-fire every now and then. But, as I said, my primary

19 concern was to take my family out of there.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: It does seem strange, though, that someone living

21 so close to this activity would have no interest in it, which is how

22 you've been translated as describing your position. And that is your

23 position: You're not interested in the conflicts that were taking place

24 at that time between the KLA and the Serb forces?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said that I didn't hear of

Page 4906

1 that. When the battle of Loxha began, I left my neighbourhood, Dardanija

2 1, and I went to my father's house.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Ivetic.


6 Q. First of all, sir, did you follow any of the media reporting of

7 this very dramatic instance, the clash between the KLA and the Serbs and

8 the later discovery of the bodies that had been mutilated, which was

9 widely covered within the local media available in Pec?

10 A. I'm not saying that it wasn't talked about; I'm just saying that I

11 was not able to hear about it on TV because I didn't have TV at that time.

12 Q. Okay. Now --

13 A. The houses were looted.

14 Q. We'll get to that in a second, sir. I just have two or three more

15 questions dealing with this, and then we'll move on to the looting of

16 houses.

17 Now, your wife's premonition to leave the area the same day as --

18 just before the attack that we've been discussing in Lodza, was that

19 premonition based on any information from anyone that the KLA was planning

20 such an operation?

21 A. As I said earlier, I took my two daughters and my mother-in-law to

22 my father's house and remained with my wife only in the house. My wife,

23 just out of fear, simply because of fear, insisted that we left the house

24 as well, and that's why I decided then to leave the house and join the

25 other members of the family at my father's place.

Page 4907

1 Q. Well, sir --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: How far away was your father's place, Mr. Konaj?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three kilometres away, in the centre

4 of the town.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


7 Q. I take it, then, that since your wife was afraid, she knew about

8 the KLA build-up and the KLA presence in nearby Lodza. Isn't that

9 correct?

10 A. Now you make me suspicious of my own wife, if she knew anything

11 about it or not. But if she knew something, she then might have kept it a

12 secret from me, because she never mentioned it to me.

13 Q. All right. Now, sir, did you hear at any point in time, either in

14 1998 or 1999, about the existence and activities of a KLA detachment of

15 the so-called secret police that operated under the moniker of the Black

16 Arm or the Black Hand in Pec, which was headed by a gentleman named Neto

17 Krasniqi?

18 A. Listen, we heard of the KLA, but as for these black police, or

19 whatever you call it, we have not heard, and we haven't heard of Neto

20 Krasniqi either.

21 Q. Okay. Now, you indicate in your statement that in 1999, when you

22 were in the house of your father when NATO began bombing, a certain

23 individual named Bajram Gashi was also present. Do you know if your

24 friend, Bajram Gashi, if he's related to someone named Muharrem Gashi?

25 A. I think you misunderstood this. Bajram Gashi, when we were

Page 4908

1 expelled, he came, together with six other members of his family, to my

2 father's house because he had been expelled as well, and we stayed

3 together in that house until 7th of July [as interpreted].

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the date.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Konaj, the question that was asked is a rather

6 different question. If you could answer that. Do you know if Bajram

7 Gashi is related to someone called Muharrem Gashi?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say yes or no to that

9 because I don't know if they were related.


11 Q. Thank you. I'll move on, then, to the looting.

12 First of all, are you familiar with the suburb of Brezanik. Is

13 this fairly close to the JNA barracks that we discussed earlier?

14 A. From Berzhanik? Yes, I know him.

15 Q. I was asking you about a location, the suburb of Brezanik. I did

16 not ask you about an individual. Are you familiar with the location of

17 the suburb of Brezanik or neighbourhood of Brezanik?

18 A. Yes, that part is called Berzhanik neighbourhood. I don't know it

19 in detail, because there might be a certain location in Berzhanik that I

20 never visited, despite the fact that I live in Peje.

21 Q. Okay. And Brezanik is situated -- now, in reference to your two

22 homes that were damaged and looted in July of 1998, am I correct that you

23 did not personally witness those acts of violence directed against your

24 two homes in July of 1998?

25 A. No.

Page 4909

1 Q. No, I am not correct or no, you did not witness the damage to your

2 homes being perpetrated?

3 A. No, I did not witness the looting, but I have seen them looted

4 afterwards, because a person who worked in the SUP took me and my uncle to

5 the location where the house was.

6 Q. Okay. And were you aware of the fact, either at the time or

7 subsequently, since you stayed through July of 1999, that there was a

8 crime spree in Pec and the various suburbs whereby certain individuals

9 were breaking into multiple homes of ethnic Albanians that had been

10 emptied because persons were staying with relatives in the city centre of

11 Pec? Are you familiar of such a crime spree; that is to say, that your

12 home was not the only home that was looted?

13 A. No, because in October I left. I went to Montenegro.

14 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you about the fact that -- in August of

15 1998, were you aware of the fact that the Serbian police in Pec conducted

16 an investigation and arrested an detained several ethnic Serbs, all

17 residents of Pec, all with previous criminal records, who were arrested

18 for this crime spree that spanned from July through August of 1998, for

19 the looting and property damage caused to homes of ethnic Albanians, and

20 that certain personal belongings from these homes were found in the

21 possession of these persons?

22 A. This is the first time I hear about this. I didn't know it then;

23 I don't know now.

24 Q. If I mention the names of Celibic Drasko, Minic Milorad, Markovic

25 Dejan, Vlahovic Ranko, all local Serbs from Pec who were detained and

Page 4910

1 arrested for this activity, are any of those names familiar to you as

2 being persons who lived in any of the neighbourhoods surrounding your

3 neighbourhood?

4 A. I don't recognise any of the names. But there were Markovics; I

5 raise this surname. But I don't know about the fact whether they looted

6 or robbed and so on.

7 Q. Okay. Now if we could move to 1999. I'd like to focus on the

8 time period where you say you were forced from your, I believe, your

9 father's home. Am I correct that at that time it is your testimony that

10 you were told to go in the direction of Montenegro?

11 A. Yes. On the 27th of March, we were told to go towards Montenegro.

12 Q. And at that time, the early days of the NATO bombing, although

13 Serbia and Montenegro were members of the same Yugoslav state, isn't it a

14 fact that people in Pec were talking about the fact that Montenegro would

15 be safe or exempt from NATO bombing?

16 A. What I know is that everybody went there. They were accepted

17 there and sheltered there. But I wasn't allowed to go there because they

18 said, now the numbers are up; nobody else can go.

19 Q. Well, sir, you previously testified that you were not permitted to

20 go because you did not have a vehicle and that anyone with vehicles was

21 permitted to go. Isn't that correct?

22 A. I'll repeat it again: Everybody who had a vehicle, on Saturday,

23 the 27th of March, and also on the 28th, was allowed to go in that

24 direction. But other people, who were on foot, were not allowed to go.

25 Q. All right. Now, if I can focus your attention to the portion of

Page 4911

1 your statement on, I believe it is, page 3 where you describe or mention a

2 group of several policemen at the cafe Iliriana. Can I first ask you to

3 describe how these policemen were dressed.

4 A. On the 27th of July, when we went in the direction of Montenegro,

5 we saw these seven persons outside the Iliriana cafe. Two or three were

6 seated on the steps. Two had blue uniforms and camouflage trousers.

7 Q. Did you see any markings or insignia on any of these uniforms of

8 these persons outside the cafe Iliriana?

9 A. No, I swear I can't remember.

10 Q. Did you personally speak with these individuals at that time?

11 A. Of course not. They just told us that we had to take side roads,

12 not the main road.

13 Q. Did you tell them that you were going to Jarina, which is, in

14 fact, another neighbourhood within Pec city?

15 A. Yes, but I was not allowed to.

16 Q. Am I correct that they took no actions to prevent you from going

17 to Jarina, except for advising you to take the side roads?

18 A. We were not allowed to enter Jarina at all. We were told to go in

19 the direction of Rozaje. When I got to the bus station, then I turned and

20 I went to Bajram Dreshaj's house.

21 Q. Now, as far as the bus station is concerned, in your statement,

22 you state that one of the policemen there said, "There is no way for you

23 to go other than to Montenegro." Could you --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you -- could you --

Page 4912

1 A. This was told to us on the 28th. I'm sorry, I said Bajram Dreshaj

2 earlier but I meant Salih Dreshaj.

3 Q. I understand that, sir. Now, I would like to ask you, first of

4 all, about this individual who told you this statement, "There's nowhere

5 for you to go other than Montenegro." How was this gentleman attired?

6 A. It was a group. On every street or road you could see three or

7 four persons, a policemen, people in camouflage uniforms. One of them

8 told us that we could not go anywhere but to Montenegro. And we followed

9 another person who turned on a side road and went to Salih Dreshaj's

10 house. It was about 4.00 or 5.00 p.m.

11 Q. Do you remember the type of uniform that the individual who told

12 you that you could not go to any place other than to Montenegro, what type

13 of uniform that was, or anything you noticed about the uniform?

14 A. I am sorry. There were different kinds of uniforms.

15 Q. Okay. Now, on the 28th of March, 1999, when you saw a group of

16 people coming from the area of the Catholic church, as you describe in

17 your statement, you and your family decided to join this group. Am I

18 correct that at that point in time nobody forced you to join this group,

19 did they?

20 A. Nobody grabbed my arm and told me to do anything. But when we

21 asked the crowd, "What is going on?" they told us, "They are expelling us

22 from our homes and are telling us to go to Montenegro." And that's when I

23 got my mother-in-law and my mother in a car, while myself, my wife, and

24 two daughters walked and joined the crowd.

25 Q. Now, eventually you got to the town centre of Pec, and I would

Page 4913

1 like to ask you a couple of questions relating to that.

2 Now, first of all, could you describe -- you described a gentleman

3 there as a traffic police commander with a megaphone. Do you happen to

4 know the name he person you've identified as a traffic police commander

5 with a megaphone at the town square?

6 A. I know him, but I can't remember his name now. He used to live in

7 my father's neighbourhood, behind the mosque. He was a commander of the

8 traffic police.

9 Q. And how far away from him were you when he made the pronouncement

10 on the megaphone?

11 A. We were in the Peje square. I was at the post office, the same

12 building as the post office today. He was about 20 to 25 metres away, in

13 the centre of the square, because all around him were people from all the

14 neighbourhoods that had come to the centre, from the morning till 11.00

15 p.m., when I left with the last bus.

16 Q. Were you able to recognise what type of clothing he was wearing?

17 A. As far as I remember, he was wearing a civilian uniform, civilian

18 clothes.

19 Q. And am I correct that there were quite a few people in the town

20 square such that it was almost impossible to pass along the main road in

21 that area?

22 A. I did not understand the question. Could you repeat it, please.

23 Q. Yes. Am I correct that, due to the number of persons in the town

24 square at that location and at that time, that it was it was almost

25 impossible to pass along the main road?

Page 4914

1 A. No. Everybody was on the pavement, the street leading to Hotel

2 Metohija and then the other one that leads to SUP. Those were empty so

3 that the trucks and the vehicles and the buses would come there and take

4 the population elsewhere. The last batch of buses that came was at 11.00

5 at night, and there were everywhere policemen and soldiers and also

6 civilians carrying guns that were keeping the streets clear, the main road

7 clear.

8 Q. Now, did you witness anyone else -- did you witness anyone else

9 making pronouncements on the megaphone in the town square, particularly

10 any ethnic Albanians?

11 A. No, I did not see any Albanians speaking with a megaphone, just

12 this commander of the traffic police.

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

14 witness.

15 Mr. Konaj, thank you very much for your testimony.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

17 Ms. Dragulev.

18 MS. DRAGULEV: Yes, Your Honour, I have a few questions.

19 In light of the confusion regarding vehicles that has arisen

20 today, I would like to show the witness P1325 to help clarify the matter.

21 Re-examination by Ms. Dragulev:

22 Q. Mr. Konaj, I'm going to show you a few photographs of military

23 vehicles, and could you please let us know if any one of those photographs

24 resembles --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

Page 4915

1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecution had a

2 chance to show the pictures of vehicles during examination-in-chief. They

3 did not take that opportunity. I think that now they would be broadening

4 their questioning and opening up new topics; that's my opinion.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. I don't agree. Where there's confusion

6 of this nature and there is a facility available to try to check the

7 matter, as long as the questions put are not leading questions, then

8 there's nothing wrong with following this course of action.

9 So please carry on, Ms. Dragulev.

10 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Konaj, I will show you three pages of photographs and would

12 ask you to wait with your selection until you've seen all three pages.

13 You described a military tank or a military vehicle earlier on to the

14 Court, and I would like to ask you if any one of those military vehicles

15 resembles the one you described earlier on. Again, please wait until

16 you've seen all pages. I believe this is page 1. And please indicate to

17 the registry once you are ready to move on to page 2.

18 A. Yes, I'll see the other ones.

19 Q. Okay.

20 MS. DRAGULEV: And there's one more page, I believe.

21 Q. Mr. Konaj, can we move to page 3?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please let us know whether you would like to see any of the other

24 pages again.

25 A. Yes. In the first page, photograph number 3 resembles the police

Page 4916

1 Pinzgauer. No, I was wrong. This one here, it's photograph number 2.

2 Number 2.

3 Q. Number 2 resembles which one?

4 A. It resembles the police Pinzgauer, blue. I can't discern the

5 colour here, but it resembles that Pinzgauer.

6 Q. And do any of the photographs resemble the military tank that you

7 saw or the other vehicle that you saw?

8 A. The military tank, this one here resembles it, the one I

9 mentioned, but I'm not sure whether it had track chains or tires. It was

10 number -- it's number 3.

11 Q. So did --

12 A. I apologise. As I said, the first one resembles the police

13 vehicle because it's metal. But I can't see the colour.

14 Q. So that's number 2, and the other one --

15 A. Yes, number 2 resembles the police Pinzgauer. But it was more

16 like a vehicle and here I can see the tires.

17 Q. And the other vehicle that you saw --

18 A. This one is the army vehicle, while -- as I said, number 2 is the

19 police and number 3, the army one. As I said, this number 2 is similar to

20 the police Pinzgauer but it's not exactly the same.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. The other question I had, Mr. Konaj,

22 was -- you were asked earlier on whether anyone had forced you to leave

23 the house of Mr. Dreshaj, and you mentioned that you had heard that the

24 crowds were being expelled. Did you see anyone being expelled? Did you

25 see any of those expulsions?

Page 4917

1 A. When we got to the door, we could see two or three streets very

2 clearly, and we saw the crowds coming to the direction of Salih Dreshaj's

3 house, where we were. The crowds went towards the economic school and

4 that's where I joined the crowd, and we went to economic school. At that

5 point we were turned back.

6 Q. And my last question is actually just a clarification. I think

7 there was a mistake in the transcript, on page 27, line 4, when Mr. Ivetic

8 asked you about the seven policemen that you encountered at cafe Iliriana

9 on the 27th of March. In your response, in the transcript you responded

10 as that having occurred on the 27th of July. I just wanted to clarify

11 that that was either a translation mistake and -- I wanted to ask you

12 whether that was on the 27th of March.

13 A. On the 27th of March and 28th of March we were expelled. It was

14 the 27th of March.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. That was my last

16 question.

17 A. One day before we were expelled, on the 27th.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. DRAGULEV: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

20 questions.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Konaj, you've mentioned, in your statement and

24 today, your father on a number of occasions. Did he leave Pec?

25 A. My father died in 1990, Your Honour.

Page 4918

1 JUDGE BONOMY: There are a number of references throughout the

2 statement to your father or your father's house; there's also reference to

3 your uncle. I had formed the impression they were not two separate

4 individuals here, so -- for example, it might be helpful if your have your

5 statement in front of you. Do you have that?

6 A. Yes, but what page, please?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the first page of the statement. It's got the

8 number 2 at the bottom of it in English, the first statement, and it

9 begins with a very short note, interviewer's note, and then there's a

10 paragraph that begins: "My name is Ndrec Konaj."

11 Now, if you go from that paragraph down three paragraphs, you'll

12 see a paragraph beginning: "We went to my uncle's house and there found

13 everyone very upset." You --

14 A. It is true. May I explain?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you look at the very last sentence of that

16 paragraph, the very last sentence of that paragraph, and would you read it

17 to me, please.

18 A. On the first page?


20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, read the last sentence of that paragraph that

22 we've just been looking at.

23 A. It is true. I took my uncle -- I grabbed my uncle by his arm --


25 A. I grabbed my uncle by his arm, and we left and went back to my

Page 4919

1 father's house.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: So this is the house that belonged to your father,

3 is it?

4 A. May I explain, please? We've got 6 hectares of land there -- I

5 apologise, 6 acres, and there are two houses there, my father's house and

6 my uncle's house. And when the police came, they took my uncle. And when

7 we returned, we went to my father's house, that's true, but it's in the

8 same compound.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: You've clarified the position for me. Thank you.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Konaj. That completes your

12 evidence. Thank you for coming again to the Tribunal to give it. You're

13 now free to leave.

14 THE WITNESS: [In English] Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the simple thing, Mr. Marcussen, if you're

17 taking the next witness, is for us to have our break now and to resume at

18 a quarter to 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, the next witness.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. The next witness is Mr.

23 Rexhep Krasniqi. He will be testifying about events relevant to paragraph

24 72(b) of the indictment, the deportation from Prizren municipality.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 4920

1 [The witness entered court]

2 MR. MARCUSSEN: While the witness walks in, the witness will be a

3 92 ter witness. He was previously 92 bis (B).

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi.

5 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you please make the solemn declaration to

7 tell the truth by reading aloud the document now placed before you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

11 Mr. Krasniqi, we have your statement in front of us, which we have

12 all read, but counsel for the Prosecution and for the accused wish to ask

13 you a number of questions about the statement and about the events that

14 you describe there. The first person to ask these questions will be for

15 the Prosecutor, Mr. Marcussen.

16 Mr. Marcussen.

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examination by Mr. Marcussen:

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi. Would you just please confirm your

22 name to the Court. Just say your name.

23 A. My name is Rexhep Krasniqi.

24 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, did you give a statement to the Office of the

25 Prosecutor?

Page 4921

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And was that statement given in April 1999, in Albania?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And later on in September, the 19th of September, 2004, did you

5 speak to a number of representatives of the Tribunal again about your

6 statement?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And on that occasion did you have your statement read back to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did you make some corrections to your statement on that day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then you were -- were you then asked to sign a declaration?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And before you testified today, was your statement read back to

15 you again, in Pristina?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you notice that there was a problem with the date

18 indicated on your statement? The statement says it was originally taken

19 on the 12th of March, 1999.

20 A. Yes. It was a mistake. The statement was taken in April, not in

21 March.

22 Q. Apart from that error in the statement, is the statement a correct

23 reflection of what you remembered happening in 1999?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So if you were asked about -- to describe the events you were

Page 4922

1 describing in your statement, you would describe them as they are

2 described in that statement from 1999?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: So at this point I would like to tender the

5 witness's statement, which is in the e-court system, as P2378.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


8 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, as Judge Bonomy told you and as you know, the Judges

9 and the Defence already have a copy your statement and have read it before

10 they came to court today. They are, therefore, fully aware of what your

11 evidence is in the statement, so I will only have very few questions for

12 you, to clarify a few matters in your statement.

13 First, I would like to ask you whether you have done your military

14 service.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When, approximately, was that?

17 A. I completely my military service in 1968/1969.

18 Q. Secondly, you say in your statement that you live in the village

19 of Dusanov.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where is that compared to Prizren? How far from Prizren is that?

22 A. About 2 kilometres, 2, 3 kilometres.

23 Q. Dusanov and Prizren, are they separate towns or have they, sort

24 of, merged together so Dusanov is really a suburb to Prizren?

25 A. They are merged together.

Page 4923

1 Q. You explain in your statement that you worked at a factory called

2 Printex, and you explain that you, one morning, noticed that a number of

3 tanks, 50 tanks, were at the factory. To your knowledge, when did the

4 tanks arrive at the factory?

5 A. They came on the 23rd of March.

6 Q. And then I have some questions about the events you describe in

7 your statement that took place on the 28th of March, when a number of

8 police and army personnel came to where you live. You have explained in

9 your statement how the police uniforms looked, but I'd like to ask you:

10 The people that are described as being from the army, what kind of clothes

11 were they wearing?

12 A. The people from the army were wearing green uniforms, camouflage.

13 MR. MARCUSSEN: And just so it's clear on the record what I'm

14 talking about, I'm talking about the third paragraph on the second page of

15 the statement, and that's the same in all language versions.

16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you also say that there were about ten tanks

17 outside, in the street outside your house. Were there only tanks, or were

18 there also other types of vehicles outside your house, in the street?

19 A. There were military and police vehicles.

20 Q. If we first deal with the military vehicles, could you describe

21 them in a bit more details. For example, let's start with the cars -- the

22 vehicles you describe as tanks. How did they look?

23 A. The military tanks had tracks instead of tires.

24 Q. Was there any kind of weapon mounted on the vehicles you describe

25 as tanks?

Page 4924

1 A. Yes. There were 105-millimetre cannons and anti-aircraft weapons.

2 Q. And what colour were the tanks?

3 A. If I could see it, I would be able to describe it; otherwise, I

4 don't know how to describe it. It's a military colour.

5 Q. Is it greenish or yellow or blue or red or --

6 A. They are not red; they are green.

7 Q. And the other military vehicles you saw, apart from the tanks, do

8 you know what kind of vehicles they were, what they're called?

9 A. They are called armoured vehicles, police armoured vehicles.

10 Q. Okay. What colour were they, the armoured vehicles from the

11 police?

12 A. Well, darker in colour than those of the army.

13 Q. And could you describe the colour. Again, was it darker green?

14 Was it darker -- another colour?

15 A. If I can see them on a photograph, I can describe them in detail,

16 which is which.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, I have an impression at the moment -

18 which may be wrong - that when the witness talks about a tank, he's

19 generally talking about a weapon with a 105-millimetre cannon on it. Now,

20 in the second paragraph on that, the short paragraph on page 2 of the

21 statement, it's as if these were two separate types of artillery. Can we

22 have that clarified? And also whether the reference to "tank" includes

23 anti-aircraft weapons as well.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain it.


Page 4925

1 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, let's go back to what you saw at the factory on the

2 23rd and deal with that, and then we'll come back to what you saw in your

3 street.

4 Now, on the 23rd, at the factory, you said you saw tanks. Now,

5 apart from the tanks, were there also other weapons?

6 A. Yes, there were.

7 Q. And you say in your statement that there were 105-millimetre

8 artillery pieces. Is that what you're saying, that there were tanks and

9 then artillery pieces at the factory?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you say these different kinds of weapons were military,

12 why is that? What colour were they, for example?

13 A. I have completed my military service and I can say that I know

14 these vehicles very well.

15 Q. So at the factory, there were tanks and artillery pieces. Now I

16 go back to the events on the 28th of March and the things you saw around

17 your house. You have described to us that you saw tanks, which were

18 vehicles running on tracks, that had a cannon on them. Were there also

19 artillery in your street, or was that only at the factory?

20 A. We are talking only about the 23rd at the factory.

21 Q. Were there military vehicles in your street which had

22 anti-aircraft guns on them?

23 A. I'm not clear. Are you referring to the 23rd or the 28th?

24 Q. On the 28th, sorry.

25 A. On the 28th, the tanks were the same in colour as those at the

Page 4926

1 factory, with the exception of the police APCs; they were different in

2 colour.

3 Q. So you also saw different kinds of equipment outside your house,

4 that you saw tanks and then police APCs. Are you able to describe the

5 colour of the APCs to the Court?

6 A. The colour was darker than the military colour.

7 Q. Was the colour similar to some of those colours found on the

8 police camouflage uniforms that you describe in your statement?

9 A. Yes, it resembles that colour.

10 Q. Apart from the tanks and the APCs, were there other kinds of

11 vehicles, or were there tanks and APCs only?

12 A. Only tanks and APCs.

13 Q. I'd like to move on to clarify another point in your --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: -- does that mean that there's some mistake along

17 the way in referring to anti-aircraft weapons?

18 MR. MARCUSSEN: That is my understanding, yes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Krasniqi, did you, at any stage this morning,

20 talk about anti-aircraft weapons?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since they were there, I could see

22 that, and there were anti-aircraft pieces, yes.

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, the anti-aircraft vehicles, where did you see them?

25 A. Those were on the top of the tank, on the front side of the tank.

Page 4927

1 Q. So the tank, apart from having a cannon, also had an anti-aircraft

2 gun on them; is that how you describe it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That anti-aircraft gun, can you describe how it looked?

5 A. They have a barrel, a thinner barrel, on the top of the tank, on

6 the front side.

7 Q. From the -- why do you say they are anti-aircraft weapons? Is

8 there anything in particular that makes you think they were anti-aircraft

9 weapons?

10 A. As I said, I have completed my military service and I can tell

11 between anti-aircraft and anti-personnel weapons.

12 Q. And if you could explain to us what the main difference is, then

13 that will be helpful, please.

14 A. The 105-millimetre cannons.

15 Q. Maybe my question was unclear. The gun that was an anti-aircraft

16 gun, why do you say that is different from the gun you describe as an

17 anti-personnel gun?

18 A. It is because the anti-aircraft, the surface-to-air, is on the

19 top, while the surface-to-surface, they have it on the front side.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we will leave the evidence as it is on the

22 record now.

23 Q. I'd like to ask you something else about what happened on the

24 28th, in the morning. You describe how the police came into your house or

25 the area where you lived and you had some other people in your house that

Page 4928

1 had come there before. Was anybody forced to pay money to the people who

2 came into your house?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Was anybody beaten?

5 A. I want to be clear on this. It's not clear to me. Can you please

6 repeat your question.

7 Q. In the morning, when you were expelled from your house, were

8 people beaten at your house?

9 A. They beat all of them, including my family.

10 Q. Did anybody need treatment afterwards because they had been

11 beaten?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who did?

14 A. Well, members of my family, as well as other people needed

15 treatment.

16 Q. Did anyone have to be attended to at a hospital?

17 A. No, we didn't take them to the hospital.

18 Q. Did anyone go to the hospital later on because they had been

19 beaten?

20 A. We didn't go to the hospital there, but we visited one in Kruja

21 and Tirana.

22 Q. Who was taken to the hospital in Kruja and Tirana?

23 A. My son's daughter, who was only 8 months old.

24 Q. How long did she have to stay in the hospital?

25 A. Eight days, while my brother, in Tirana, 17 days.

Page 4929

1 Q. In the transcript, when I asked you who had to go to the daughter,

2 you said your son's daughter. Now I understand that there was also

3 another person, namely your brother, who had to be hospitalised. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I have two short points more to clarify with you --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you do that ...

8 What treatment did your granddaughter require?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the police forces entered my

10 house, they grabbed her by her neck and they made some injuries on her

11 neck and her chest. So we went to Albania, we took her to the hospital.

12 There was no way that we could take her to the hospital in our area

13 because they came there to massacre us, not to give us any treatment. The

14 Serb police forces came to my house. They grabbed my granddaughter by her

15 neck.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you listen to my question, please. What

17 treatment did she require in Albania?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They first treated her wound on

19 the -- the injuries, because she was scratched on her neck, and then again

20 another treatment for the other damages that she suffered.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And what treatment did your brother require?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was in Tirana; we were in Kruja.

23 I went to visit him at the hospital after five or six days. It was

24 impossible for us to meet before. When we arrived in Albania, we actually

25 lost contact between each other. I went to visit him later.

Page 4930

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you see, again, you do not appear to have

2 listened to my question. What treatment did he require?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A cut on his head, because a police

4 hit him on his head.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Marcussen.


8 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in the second paragraph of page 3 of your statement,

9 and in the B/C/S and Albanian version it's paragraph 4, you say that you

10 saw houses on fire. Where were those houses?

11 A. These houses are in our neighbourhood.

12 Q. And my last question relates to the next paragraph in your

13 statement -- no, sorry, that's not correct. It relates to the last

14 paragraph on page 3 and paragraph 5 in -- excuse me. It does relate to

15 the next paragraph in the statement. Sorry, Mr. Krasniqi, that's my mess,

16 not you making any mistakes.

17 Mr. Krasniqi, you say that you saw roadblocks, you passed

18 roadblocks, as you were on your way to Albania. Who were manning those

19 roadblocks?

20 A. Those that I mentioned earlier.

21 Q. You mentioned both police and military earlier. Do you mean that

22 there were both police and military at the roadblocks?

23 A. Yes. They were the same.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. MARCUSSEN: That concludes my questions for the witness, Your

Page 4931

1 Honour, at this stage.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Mr. O'Sullivan.

4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be: General

5 Pavkovic, General Ojdanic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr.

6 Sainovic, and General Lukic.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Aleksic.

9 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no

10 questions for this witness.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.

12 MR. SEPENUK: Yes, no questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Bakrac.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have questions.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. I am attorney-at-law Mihajlo

18 Bakrac, one of the Defence team of General Lazarevic.

19 The first thing that I would like to know, Mr. Krasniqi, is you

20 mentioned giving two statements today; one on the 12th of March - later

21 you corrected yourself, saying that it was in April 1999, and that

22 correction we mentioned, in 2004; and finally the third statement -- in

23 fact, additional information provided on the 12th of October.

24 Did you give a statement on the 13th of December, 1999? Is there

25 any other statement that you have given?

Page 4932

1 A. I don't remember.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think this issue was dealt with in the filings

4 that were made in the context of the 92 bis motion that was filed by the

5 Prosecution. There exists another version of the statement which was

6 signed by the witness in December 1999. The contents of the statement

7 that is included in the 92 bis package and the contents of the statement

8 that was signed in December are identical. There was a declaration filed

9 by the investigator who took -- who participated in the signature of the

10 statement in December 1999. It is found in the registry -- in the filings

11 in the registry, page 6488, which explains the process by which it came

12 about. But it's not a separate statement.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: You've given enough information for Mr. Bakrac now

14 to proceed with the cross-examination, if he wants to deal with the matter

15 further.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I just wouldn't

17 agree with my colleague, Mr. Marcussen, that they are identical. The

18 statement included in the package bearing the date of the 12th is

19 different to this other statement, and I will just state at the end of the

20 statement --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: By all means, explore the matter in

22 cross-examination if you wish.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, we are now talking about your statement of the 12th

25 of March, 1999, that is, the date on the statement, or from April, as you

Page 4933

1 say. Was that statement translated and read back to you in Albanian?

2 A. Yes, it was read back to me in Albanian.

3 Q. Do you know the name of the interpreter who read that back to you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know if that translated statement, since the interview was

6 in English, was signed by the interpreter on the declaration?

7 A. Could you repeat it again, please. I didn't understand the

8 question.

9 Q. Did the interpreter who did the interpreting for you, whose name

10 you say you don't know, sign the translation of that statement, to the

11 best of your knowledge, if you know? If you don't know, say you don't

12 know.

13 A. I don't know.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the statement

15 included in the package there is no name of the interpreter. It just

16 says "Interpreter." I checked both the English and the Albanian version

17 and there is no signature of the interpreter. I don't know if the

18 Prosecution can explain this.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: He won't be able to answer that for you,

20 Mr. Bakrac, and it's a matter you can try and clarify with the Prosecution

21 at some other stage. But I think for the moment you should concentrate on

22 using your time to ask the questions you wish to ask of the witness.

23 Mr. Marcussen.

24 MR. MARCUSSEN: Maybe if I just may address one issue. My

25 understanding is - and I agree with my colleague - the statement that was

Page 4934

1 included in the 92 bis package was not a signed copy, but in September

2 2004, when the witness was met by a representative of the registry, he

3 adopted the statement that is included in the 92 bis package. So I don't

4 think there's -- I hope there isn't any issue about whether or not the

5 statement that is included in the 92 bis package is, indeed, reflecting

6 what the witness's evidence is. Thank you.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, according to Mr. Bakrac's -- in fact,

8 according to your statement, Mr. Marcussen, you said that there exists

9 another version of the statement which was signed by the witness in

10 December 1999. Now, Mr. Bakrac's point relates to it not being signed by

11 the interpreter.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes. I'm confirming that the statement that is

13 included in the 92 bis package was not signed by -- is not the one that

14 was signed by the witness in December. There are no signatures -- as I

15 can see from the record, there were no signatures on the document that the

16 witness signed in September 2004, prior to him signing or giving --

17 putting his initials on the statement.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what do you mean by, "There exists another

19 version of the statement which was signed by the witness in December

20 1999"?

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: That there exists a statement that -- well,

22 exactly that; that we have a statement which has ERN numbers K0 --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's not waste time on this.

24 Mr. Bakrac, if the statement you're dealing with is signed by the

25 witness, you can deal with the question of interpreter's signature in

Page 4935

1 discussion with the Prosecution later. But if you have questions to ask

2 about a statement he signed in December 1999, you should use your time to

3 do that and not deal with this administrative business.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see that the

5 Prosecution is baffled as well; I'm not the only one who's baffled. We

6 got statements from the 12th of March and 13th of December, somewhat

7 different from the statement included in the package which bears the date

8 the 12th of March.

9 In this official version of the statement we don't know who the

10 interpreter was; there is no name and no signature of the interpreter. So

11 we don't know whether this is a compilation of statements, maybe, or what

12 it could be. The very beginning of these two statements are different.

13 The statement bearing the dates of 12th March and 13th December were

14 signed by the witness on the 13th of December, and they are not quite the

15 same, contrary to what my colleague Mr. Marcussen says.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you expect me to do about it, Mr. Bakrac,

17 except let you ask questions about it, if you want to do it. There's

18 nothing else I can do it. You're just using your time unnecessarily on

19 debating this here.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

21 question the witness.

22 Q. Did you give a statement in Albania, in March?

23 A. No, that's not correct, because on the 28th of March we left the

24 country. It was not on the 12th; it was on the 28th.

25 Q. Excellent. Thank you. Tell me, please, did you have occasion, on

Page 4936

1 the 19th of September, 2004, to correct all the possible errors in your

2 statement? Did the Office of the Prosecutor give you the opportunity, on

3 the 19th of September, 2004, to correct anything that could have been

4 incorrect in your statement?

5 A. I told them that the date is wrong, because the statement was not

6 given on the 12th of March but on the 12th of April; and the place was

7 Kruja and not Durres. I told them that.

8 Q. So you are saying to us now that, back in September 2004, you told

9 the office of the Prosecutor, in fact you drew their attention to the

10 fact, that it was not 12th of March.

11 A. Yes, I told them.

12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, right now I have in front of me your statement of

13 the 19th of September, 2004, and I will read to you one sentence:

14 "In the unofficial statement given to Jerry Saxon, investigator of

15 the OTP, that has been read back to him today on the 19th of September,

16 2004, some errors were discovered that need to be corrected."

17 And then you proceed to correct: Your personal details, the

18 address has to be corrected; the interview location should be Kruja, not

19 Drac; and where it says that the statement was read back to you in the

20 Bosnian language, that should be corrected to read "Albanian language."

21 So you told the Prosecution that the date of the first interview

22 was not the 12th of March and they did not record it. Is that the way I

23 should understand it?

24 A. No, it wasn't on the 12th of March.

25 Q. But, in 2004, on the 19th of September, you drew the attention of

Page 4937

1 the Prosecution that it was not in March, on the 12th, it was in April.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct, that it was in April, not in March.

4 Q. Could you think of any reason why the Prosecution did not record

5 this, if you told them so, why they did not record it in the statement of

6 the 19th of September, 2004?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that a serious point to be pursuing,

8 Mr. Bakrac? And is that a serious question for this trial, a trial of

9 this magnitude? Please let's concentrate on things that matter.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will move on, but I

11 think that a serious trial of this magnitude should not allow such errors,

12 all the more so because we don't know which statement holds true and where

13 it was taken, whether in Albania or in other country. I think these are

14 serious errors that should be corrected to uphold or to establish the

15 authenticity of his statement. But I will move on. No problem.

16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, do you know that as of the 24th of March, 1999,

17 Prizren was bombed? Do you have any knowledge about that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know that on the 27th and the 28th the barracks of the Army

20 of Yugoslavia in Prizren was bombed on more than one occasion?

21 A. The first day, on the 24th, the army barracks in Prizren were

22 bombed.

23 Q. Were there bombardments also on the 27th and 28th of March, not

24 far from the building of the Municipal Assembly of Prizren?

25 A. There was.

Page 4938

1 Q. On the 28th of March you said you saw 50 or 60 tanks of the Army

2 of Yugoslavia; were they camouflaged?

3 A. Yes, I saw them.

4 Q. Yes, I understand that you saw them. My question is: Were they

5 camouflaged; and if so, if what way?

6 A. Well, they had things on top, a kind of net that they were covered

7 in.

8 Q. So they were camouflaged, masked, covered. Are you aware that in

9 those circumstances they are unable to move?

10 A. Well, when the tank is stationed somewhere and doesn't move, it's

11 like that. But there were tanks that I saw moving, and came there.

12 Q. So you just saw some tanks coming there and stopping.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was it logical, in your view, that after the bombing of the

15 barracks, tanks with anti-aircraft weapons on them have to be stationed

16 somewhere?

17 A. Well, these things were talked about on the streets.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:

19 A. They were deployed on the streets.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

23 questions.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, I -- no, I don't think -- I was going

25 to ask you to perhaps assist us with the proper description of these

Page 4939

1 vehicles, but I don't think that is appropriate, in the circumstances.

2 That's a matter you'll, no doubt, deal with at a later stage.

3 And can I take it that you're not, in fact, going to pursue

4 anything in relation to the statement of the 13th of December, 1999?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try to clarify

6 that with my learned friends from the Prosecution, and depending on what I

7 establish, I will give you a response.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: But if there's something in it that you think is

9 contradictory of other evidence that the witness is giving, this is the

10 only opportunity you have got to deal with that. So, can I take it there

11 is nothing of that nature that you want to deal with in that statement?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you're right.

13 There are no contradictions; there are just parts of one statement that

14 are missing in the other. Otherwise, there are no discrepancies.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 Mr. O'Sullivan.

17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I do have some questions.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

24 Q. Good day, Mr. Krasniqi. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the

25 Defence attorneys for Sreten Lukic. I have a number of questions for you

Page 4940

1 here today, and I would ask you to pay close attention to each of my

2 questions so as to try and give me the most truthful and concise answer

3 possible, since we do need to try to finish up before the break.

4 Now, sir, you are from the village of Dusanovo. Can you please

5 tell us what the ethnic make-up of Dusanovo village was in March of 1999?

6 A. The village of Dushanova had all the nationalities there. There

7 were Albanians, Serbs, and Roma.

8 Q. Could you tell us the approximate break-down percentage-wise of

9 the population that was, for instance, ethnic Serb, ethnic Albanian, Roma,

10 or Goran?

11 A. I'm sorry, I never kept statistics. But what I know is that there

12 were 40 Serb households or houses.

13 Q. And do you know how many Albanian households there were in that

14 village?

15 A. A lot of them. There are many Albanians. I don't know the exact

16 number, but I know that there are many.

17 Q. Okay. And could you please tell us a little bit about your

18 employer Printex. How many ethnic Serbs and ethnic Albanians worked there

19 in -- I should say, in February and March of 1999, if you know.

20 A. Are you asking me? Okay. Until 1999 -- Printex, I worked there

21 for 34 years. So until 1999, it was about 50/50, Albanians and Serbs.

22 Q. Okay. And in your statement, you state that there were tensions

23 that occurred before the NATO bombing, and you set forth that your Serb

24 colleagues said that if NATO started bombing, they would kill you. Now,

25 when you talk about Serb colleagues, are you talking about your co-workers

Page 4941

1 from the Printex factory?

2 A. No. The military forces told us that. It was the Serb soldiers.

3 Q. Now, sir, I'm looking at your statement --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- at the second page in all versions of your statement, so we can

6 deal with the one that's in the 92 bis, and it clearly there states, when

7 talking about the textile factory called Printex, where you worked in

8 Prizren for 27 years, it says:

9 "There were both Serbs and Albanians working there. I was never

10 involved in politics. I am a Muslim. There was no tension in our

11 neighbourhood before this. Then our Serb colleagues told us they would

12 kill us if NATO started bombing them."

13 And I'm trying to find out whether, in fact, your statement is

14 accurate, that it was your Serb colleagues that told you that they would

15 kill you if NATO started bombing, and then to find out what you mean by

16 "colleagues." Are those the colleagues from Printex or are they your

17 neighbours in the village?

18 A. I'll try to explain. On the 23rd - please understand me - our

19 Serb colleagues, we left work together, and they told us that if NATO

20 attacks, the soldiers had said they would kill us. Are you clear now?

21 Q. Sir, I'm trying to be clear, but it seems like you are changing it

22 yet again. Did you actually witness anyone telling you that if NATO

23 started bombing, they would kill you, or is this something that you heard

24 from other people? I mean, did someone personally threaten you in this

25 manner?

Page 4942

1 A. Well, let's not get into details. When we left work, we were

2 going home -- because I understand Serbo-Croatian, and we were together

3 with our Serb colleagues when the soldiers said, "If NATO attacks, then

4 you will be killed."

5 Q. So is it now your testimony that, in fact, your Serb colleagues

6 were not the ones who made these statements but it was these soldiers who

7 you've now identified for the first time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that is not set forth in the statement that you said was read

10 back to you and that you agreed was the truth of what you knew and what

11 you could testify to. Is that correct?

12 A. Maybe I did not understand the statement well.

13 Q. Is it possible that there are other portions of the statement that

14 you did not understand well; that is to say, was the translation that was

15 provided for you at the time that the statement was read back to you not

16 very comprehensible to you?

17 A. It could be.

18 Q. Now, let me ask you some questions to try and clarify, then. Did

19 you perceive hostility directed against the ethnic Albanian residents of

20 your village by the ethnic Serb or other non-Albanian residents of the

21 village, arising as a result of the foreseen NATO bombing campaign and the

22 eventual commencement of that bombing?

23 A. There wasn't.

24 Q. Would you describe the situation in your village, in March of

25 1999, as being tense as a result of the impending NATO bombings?

Page 4943

1 A. After the bombing.

2 Q. So is it your testimony, then, that after NATO started bombing,

3 that all of a sudden the situation was tense in your village of Dusanovo?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And after NATO started bombing, would you describe your village as

6 also being tense due to KLA activities, if not within the village, in the

7 surrounding area of the totality of the Prizren municipality?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Were you aware of any KLA activity in the surrounding area of your

10 village?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Had you ever seen KLA present in the area surrounding your village

13 or in your village?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Well, then, perhaps you could clear something up for me, because

16 in your statement, although stating that there was no KLA activity in your

17 area, you go on to describe the individuals that came wearing uniforms on

18 the 28th of March, and in particular you describe persons wearing black

19 combat uniforms with some kind of insignia on their arms, and then you

20 also describe persons wearing blue camouflage uniforms "similar to the

21 KLA." Now, if there was no KLA activity in your area, how could you have

22 an appraisal of what kind of uniforms the KLA wore?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Were there, in fact, KLA in your area that dressed in blue

25 camouflage uniforms, as is recorded in your statement, the type of blue

Page 4944

1 camouflage uniforms?

2 A. No, not the KLA.

3 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you about some activities that --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you're moving to something else, let me

5 ask the witness something.

6 Do you have your statement before you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, could you give the witness a hard

9 copy of the Albanian and just mark the paragraph in which this reference

10 occurs --

11 MR. IVETIC: It's the third paragraph of page 2 on the English,

12 Your Honour --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I know which paragraph it is. I just want

14 Mr. Marcussen to mark where it is so that the witness can quickly read to

15 us what the statement says.

16 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'll just see if I can identify the line so we get

17 it absolutely clear.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. It's just a paragraph. It starts with: "My

19 brother and I had 60 ..."

20 Now, Mr. Krasniqi, on that copy of your statement in Albanian --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 60.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: -- you'll see the paragraph that's marked now for

23 your attention. Can you read the paragraph that's marked, please. Just

24 read it aloud to us.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which part, once again? This one

Page 4945

1 here, or here?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Where did you mark it, Mr. Marcussen?

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Mr. Krasniqi, I underlined a sentence in red. I

4 think that's the sentence Mr. President would like you to read.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one in red.


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They were wearing black combat

8 uniforms with some kind of insignia. They were also wearing blue

9 camouflage uniforms similar to the KLA. There was no KLA. Some of them

10 were wearing masks --"

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just stop there. You've read a part that

12 says: "They were also wearing blue camouflage uniforms similar to the

13 KLA." Did you say that to the investigator?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I might have told

15 the investigator that, but I don't remember.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what information did you have about the KLA --

17 the uniforms that the KLA wore at that time?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally, I didn't pay attention.

19 I minded my own business.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Krasniqi, most people do generally mind

21 their own business, but sometimes they also get information about the

22 activities of importance that are happening in their area. Now, tell us,

23 please, what information you had at that stage about the uniforms that

24 were worn by the KLA.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't describe it because I

Page 4946

1 haven't seen them. I don't know, really.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, why did you give that description to the

3 investigator?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After we finished, after it

5 finished, I know that I've seen the KLA uniforms on TV and I thought they

6 were similar with those uniforms that I had seen on TV.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.


9 Q. Now, sir, you say that after it finished you saw the KLA uniforms

10 on TV; however, in this statement you testified to, you gave it actually

11 in April of 1999, which would have been just one -- less than a month

12 after -- in fact, I think it's about two and a half weeks after you left

13 your village. Did you see the KLA on TV at that time?

14 A. Yes, after I left my village.

15 Q. All right. Now I'd like to ask you a little bit more about your

16 knowledge of things. First of all, are you -- Mr. Krasniqi, are you

17 familiar with a man named Xhemshet Krasniqi?

18 A. I can't hear you.

19 Q. I'm sorry --

20 A. Now it's better.

21 Q. -- let me repeat that. Mr. Krasniqi, are you familiar with a man

22 named Xhemshet Krasniqi, whose nom de guerre was Beli Medved, or White

23 Bear, who was the KLA/UCK commander for the unit that covered the area

24 between Vrbica to Zur to Ljubicevo to Jeskovo, up to Lez, to the very

25 south-west border of Prizren city?

Page 4947

1 A. No, I don't know.

2 Q. Okay. And did you not happen to see on TV or hear about the

3 efforts undertaken by Mr. Xhemshet Krasniqi and Mr. Xhevat Berisha to blow

4 up the St. George church in Prizren itself, even back in October 1997?

5 A. I have no knowledge about this, and I never heard of it.

6 Q. Okay. I'm just going to ask you briefly about two other

7 individuals who were KLA commanders in the area of the Prizren

8 municipality where your village is located. Have you ever heard of --

9 A. If you can speak a little bit louder because I can't hear well

10 with one ear.

11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I don't know if it's me or the

12 translators that should speak louder.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, I think it must be the adjustment of the

14 earphones that's required.


16 Q. Can you hear me now, sir?

17 A. Now it's good.

18 Q. As I was saying, I wanted to just briefly go through two other

19 individuals who were KLA commanders in the Prizren municipality where your

20 village is located to find out if you had heard or knew anything about

21 them and their activities. A gentleman by the name of Rifat Sulejmani

22 and a gentleman by the name of Ekrem Rexha, did you have occasion to hear

23 about them or any of the activities of their units in the area where you

24 lived in 1998 or 1999?

25 A. Please, let the counsel be told that I never heard of these things

Page 4948

1 and I have no knowledge whatsoever about these things.

2 Q. Do you have knowledge of certain weapons that were turned in by

3 villagers from your village to the Serbian police?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Okay. Now --

6 A. No, I don't know.

7 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, if you know,

8 with respect to the population in your village. Is it correct that a

9 portion of the population actually remained in the village and did not

10 leave in March of 1999?

11 A. Those that remained went to the town. Nobody remained in the

12 village itself.

13 Q. Did you have knowledge -- upon returning to your village, did you

14 have knowledge of any attacks undertaken by the KLA against villagers from

15 your village who had remained in Kosovo?

16 A. No, I don't know about that.

17 Q. Do you know what happened to a teacher from Dusanovo, the father

18 of a villager named Snjezana Djordjevic, who was attached to a tractor and

19 pulled to his death, from Dusanovo village to the nearby vineyards, by the

20 KLA?

21 A. I have no knowledge about this.

22 Q. Did you know anyone named Djordjevic in the Dusanovo village?

23 A. It is a large village, and I don't remember the names.

24 Q. Okay.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 4949


2 Q. And upon your return to Kosovo, did you have occasion to learn

3 about the KLA killing of another villager from Dusanovo village, Djumret

4 Pajaziti, himself a Goran, an ethnic Muslim?

5 A. I have not heard about this. I don't remember.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you briefly discussed the bombings that occurred in

7 Prizren after NATO air-strikes began. Am I correct that for four straight

8 days, that is the 25th of March, 26th of March, 27th of March, and 28th of

9 March, Prizren city itself was struck multiple times by NATO aircraft?

10 A. The gun-fire was heard, the explosions were heard, but we don't

11 know -- I don't know where the bombs actually fell.

12 Q. On those evenings was there a -- was there electricity available

13 after these explosions were heard?

14 A. Partly.

15 Q. Okay. Now, do you remember, sir, on the 28th of March, do you

16 recall what time of day these forces that you've described arrived at your

17 house?

18 A. They came on the 28th.

19 Q. I believe I asked you, sir, if you recall what time of day, on the

20 28th, these forces were --

21 A. They came at around 4.30, 5.00 p.m.

22 Q. And at that point in time, sir, were you able to clearly see the

23 uniforms of the individuals that you have described as being police who

24 were a part of this force that came to your house?

25 A. Yes, of course I was able to see it.

Page 4950

1 Q. And were you able to eye-witness any words that were uttered by

2 these persons? For instance, when -- in your statement, on page 2, in the

3 fourth paragraph, when you say, "Go to Albania. There is no place for you

4 here in Kosovo," did you personally eye-witness who uttered those words?

5 A. Yes, but I do not know that person who uttered those words, but

6 younger people know him.

7 Q. Were you close enough to that individual to see the specific

8 details of his uniform, if, in fact, he was wearing a uniform?

9 A. I could see the uniform because I met him, I saw him.

10 Q. Well, could you please describe that uniform for us in as much

11 detail as you can.

12 A. Well, I don't know how else to describe it. It is the same

13 description that I gave earlier.

14 Q. Well, sir, you've described black combat uniforms and then you've

15 also described uniforms similar to those worn by the KLA. Which

16 uniforms -- or was there a different type of uniform, sir? Which uniform

17 is it that you described earlier that this person was wearing?

18 A. That was the police and a person with black clothes.

19 Q. Now, did these black clothes have any insignia or labels; and if

20 so, where?

21 A. They were wearing black clothes, they had masks, and you could

22 only see their fingers.

23 Q. Did these black clothes have any markings on them?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Okay. Now, you also discuss in your statement that at the time

Page 4951

1 that these persons came to your home, you describe that they had police

2 cars which had Prizren number plates. Now, these vehicles that you

3 describe as police cars with Prizren number plates, are they separate from

4 the vehicles you described earlier today that were armoured vehicles, or

5 are we talking about the armoured vehicles?

6 A. They are similar to those described earlier.

7 Q. And when you say they had Prizren number plates, am I to

8 understand that to mean that the licence plates started with the letters

9 PZ and then had a number following it?

10 A. PZ. I can't hear anything now.

11 Q. Now, these vehicles with the PZ licence plates, were they plain

12 coloured, or did they have any other markings or emblems on them?

13 A. The police vehicles that I saw with registration plate PZ, these

14 were jeeps. And as for the other vehicles, I don't know where they were

15 from.

16 Q. Now, sir, I believe you had earlier testified that you only saw

17 tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and anti-aircraft pieces. Are you now

18 telling us that there were also jeeps present on the road in your village

19 on the 28th?

20 A. They passed by the main road. They were passing by there.

21 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned certain injuries that were

22 encountered by members of your family. Do you have any hospital

23 documentation or was any hospital documentation issued for this treatment?

24 A. No. We did not know that we will need them later. We didn't know

25 at that time that there will be people who will want to shed light on this

Page 4952

1 case.

2 Q. So is it your testimony that the hospital in Albania did not

3 provide medical documentation for you at any point in time --

4 A. No. We didn't even ask for that documentation.

5 Q. Now, you also specify -- strike that.

6 Am I correct that, with regards to your description of what

7 transpired on the 28th of March, the evening hours of the 28th of March

8 when these forces arrived to your home, is your knowledge of those events

9 limited to what you saw at your own residence; that is to say, that you

10 did not see what had happened elsewhere in the village which, you had

11 testified to, was a rather large village?

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. And is it also correct that ethnic Serbs had left that village as

14 well, either that day or the night before? And you don't know why they

15 left that village, do you?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. All right, Mr. Krasniqi. Thank you for your testimony.

18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I've completed with this witness.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

22 Re-examination by Mr. Marcussen:

23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, just a few questions to clarify some matters that

24 have come up. Mr. Bakrac, the first counsel who asked you questions,

25 spoke to you about whether the tanks you saw at different points in time

Page 4953

1 had camouflage on them, and you explained how they had been covered

2 with -- on top of them, there was some sort of camouflage on the tanks.

3 My question is: The tanks you saw in the street, did they also have

4 camouflage on them?

5 A. They had the same colour.

6 Q. But did they -- on top of them, was there some sort of camouflage

7 put on top of them?

8 A. They had some kind of leaves so that they would not be detected, I

9 suppose, by the aircraft.

10 Q. And those leaves, were they attached to the tank itself?

11 A. Those tanks were not moving; they were stationed.

12 Q. But the leaves, were they attached to the tank?

13 A. No, no. They were kind of like an umbrella cover for the tank.

14 Q. You were asked about your colleagues who told you that soldiers

15 had said that you would be killed if the NATO started to bomb. What day

16 was that, if you remember?

17 A. It was the 23rd of March.

18 Q. Did you feel scared by that?

19 A. Of course.

20 Q. Mr. Ivetic asked you if the situation in your village became tense

21 after the NATO bombing had started. Would you say that it was also fairly

22 tense after your colleagues had told you that you would be killed if the

23 NATO started to bomb?

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I believe I asked and answered -- my

25 question originally to him was relating to the period prior to the NATO

Page 4954

1 bombing, and I believe he said it was not tense and it only became tense

2 after the bombing, if --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the matter has been dealt with,

4 Mr. Marcussen.


6 Q. You described the different people who came to your house on the

7 28th of March, and there was some people in black uniforms and one of

8 those told you that you should go to Albania. From what you could observe

9 about how these different people were operating, was it your impression

10 that they were working together?

11 A. These persons acted in the same way. They wanted to massacre us,

12 to expel us, and to send us to Albania as soon as possible.

13 Q. Did both people in blue uniform and people in black uniform enter

14 your house?

15 A. All of them.

16 Q. Also people in green uniform?

17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were soldiers as well, regular

19 soldiers.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let me hear the first objection.

21 Mr. Aleksic, I think, was first.

22 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think this was

23 referenced to in the statement or during the examination-in-chief or

24 during the cross-examination, that some people went through his gate

25 wearing green uniforms. This doesn't stem from either the

Page 4955

1 examination-in-chief or the cross-examination.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And just to second that, Your

3 Honour. And I wanted to say that this is a leading question.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: On page 2, the third paragraph of the statement

6 says, about the middle: "There were tanks with big 105-millimetre cannons

7 on them. The police cars came from Prizren. There were tanks right

8 outside my front gate. The army was also there, the VJ."

9 My understanding of the statement is, indeed, that -- that they

10 were all -- I'm sorry, it goes on at the end by saying: "All the street

11 was sealed off by the police and the military."

12 My understanding is that, indeed, the evidence has been that there

13 were both police and military involved in this operation, and also that

14 they came to the house.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there was nothing in the cross-examination

16 from which the question you just asked could possibly derive; and

17 secondly, it was a grossly leading question to which the answer would be

18 of no value. For both these reasons, we sustain the objection and we'll

19 ignore any comment made by the witness in response to the question.

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Krasniqi, that completes your evidence, brings

23 it to an end. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give this

24 evidence. That means that you are now free to leave. Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 4956

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We will resume at five minutes to 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Your next witness, Mr. Marcussen.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: The next witness is Mr. Rahim Latifi. He is also

7 a 92 ter witness; he was previously a 92 bis (B) witness. His evidence is

8 relevant to paragraph 72(b) of the indictment, as the last witness was.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Latifi.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

13 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which is now placed before

14 you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

18 Now, Mr. Latifi, we have before us statements that you've given

19 and also a written copy of the evidence you gave when you were here before

20 and were a witness in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, so we have a great

21 deal of information about the case that you can give to us. The purpose

22 of today's hearing is to enable counsel involved in the case to ask

23 questions that they feel will assist us further. The first person to ask

24 questions of you will be for the Prosecutor, and that will be

25 Mr. Marcussen.

Page 4957

1 Mr. Marcussen.

2 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examination by Mr. Marcussen:

6 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Would you please state your name to the

7 Court so we shall have that right on record.

8 A. Rahim Latifi.

9 Q. Mr. Latifi, on the 28th of April, 1999, did you give a statement

10 to the Office of the Prosecutor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And after the statement had been taken, it was read back to you.

13 Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were asked to sign the statement.

16 A. Yes, of course.

17 Q. And you did sign the statement.

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And on the 29th of January, 2002, did you speak to representatives

20 of the Office of the Prosecutor and the registry about your statement

21 again?

22 A. Yes, we did.

23 Q. And you signed a declaration saying that your statement was

24 correct. Is that so?

25 A. Yes, that is so.

Page 4958

1 Q. And last week in Prizren, did you have an opportunity to read your

2 statement again?

3 A. Yes, I read it again last week.

4 Q. And is the statement a correct reflection of the events that you

5 described in that statement?

6 A. Yes, that's correct. It's a true reflection of what happened.

7 Q. Okay. So if you were asked to describe all those events again

8 today, you would describe them as they are described in the statement. Is

9 that right?

10 A. Could you say that again?

11 Q. Sorry, if you -- yes. If you were asked about the events that you

12 described in your statement today, you would describe them as you have

13 described them in your statement.

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: At this stage, Your Honour, I would like to tender

16 the statement of Mr. Latifi as Exhibit P2381.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


19 Q. And, Mr. Latifi, did you also testify in the Milosevic case?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the 22nd of April, 2002, the transcript of that testimony, has

22 that been read back to you recently?

23 A. Yes, it was read to me.

24 Q. And is it the case with that transcript, that if you were asked

25 the questions you were asked in the Milosevic case, you would answer them

Page 4959

1 in the same way as they are answered in the transcript?

2 A. I think so, yes.

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender, then, the

4 exhibit -- sorry, the transcript from the Milosevic case as Exhibit P2382.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


7 Q. Mr. Latifi, as Judge Bonomy explained to you, the Court and -- the

8 Judges and the Defence have read your statement and your transcript in the

9 Milosevic case, so today I would only be going over some limited points

10 with you, to clarify those points. We will not go through your entire

11 testimony again.

12 First thing I'd like to ask you is whether you have done your

13 military service.

14 A. Yes, I have.

15 Q. And when did you do that?

16 A. In 1989/1990.

17 Q. And then from your village to Pristina -- to Prizren, how far is

18 that?

19 A. It's 11 kilometres.

20 Q. In what direction, generally, if you are -- if you are in your

21 village of Pirana, what direction is Prizren?

22 A. My village is on the main road Prizren-Gjakova. It's found on the

23 first 11 kilometres, that is, 11 kilometres away from Prizren.

24 Q. North or south?

25 A. North.

Page 4960

1 Q. Thank you. You describe in your statement, on the second page,

2 the events that occurred on the 24th of March, 1999, and you say that your

3 village was surrounded by army and Serbian police. I'd like to discuss

4 those units a bit more now in my questions.

5 I'd like, first, to focus on the units you describe as being from

6 the army. What kind of uniforms were the people you describe as being

7 from the army wearing?

8 A. The army had a single-colour uniform, what is called SMB, which is

9 olive-grey-green uniform, while the police were wearing camouflage

10 uniforms.

11 Q. Okay. What were the colour of the police uniforms?

12 A. It was blue and white, mixed.

13 Q. And the vehicles that you saw, some of the vehicles I think you

14 described as being army vehicles, how did they look?

15 A. The army vehicles that you mentioned -- in the beginning, the

16 tanks entered; they had tracks. And then there were APCs and Pragas, and

17 they were single-coloured, of the regular army.

18 Q. And what was the single colour they had?

19 A. Olive-green-grey, SMB.

20 Q. And were there also vehicles that you think belonged to the

21 police?

22 A. The police had some Pinzgauers, a kind of a truck or a van, and

23 also smaller vehicles. There was also a bus, a civilian bus from which

24 they got off. They got off at the entrance of the village, at the bridge.

25 Q. And you saw them get out of the bus, did you?

Page 4961

1 A. Yes. You could see very clearly from my house.

2 Q. And the colour of the vehicles you just described, that were

3 belonging to the police, what was that?

4 A. Blue. Some of them looked darker, darker blue, but there were not

5 many police vehicles.

6 Q. And the Pinzgauer that you referred to, could you describe how

7 that looked, a little more.

8 A. It was blue.

9 Q. And how did it look? You said it was a truck or a van. Did it

10 have any other weapons? What made you identify it as a Pinzgauer?

11 A. Well, a Pinzgauer resembles a van. It's closed.

12 Q. Had you seen that kind of vehicle before?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Where had you seen them?

15 A. Because they moved regularly, my house is very close to the main

16 road and those vehicles would go on that main road; not only those but

17 other vehicles as well. There were these blue police vehicles but also

18 other smaller vehicles with the same colour, and they would go regularly

19 on the main road. But they also moved on buses, civilian buses, and

20 civilian cars, civilian trucks.

21 Q. When you specifically say that some of the cars were Pinzgauers,

22 I'm trying find out why you say that. How are you able to identify the

23 cars as being Pinzgauers?

24 A. Well, I could tell they were that because of the colour, and the

25 people on them were wearing police uniforms.

Page 4962

1 Q. Thank you. You also, in the same paragraph, describe that you saw

2 the houses of your village burn. Where were you when you saw the houses

3 burn?

4 A. In the same house I was that morning, in my cousin's house.

5 Q. Where in the house were you when you could see the houses burn?

6 A. The house is in the outskirts of the village, and the Pirane-Reti

7 road is a dirt road, the houses in Pirane.

8 Q. And where in the house where you, what room?

9 A. I observed from the roof, under the roof.

10 Q. And from there did you have a view of the village?

11 A. Most of the village.

12 Q. Approximately how many houses do you think you could see burn from

13 that place?

14 A. In the beginning there were these kinds of shells. They came from

15 Landovica. The army was stationed there. One of those shells fell 200

16 metres away from the house where I was; the other one, a little further.

17 While about ten minutes later the first house in the village started to

18 burn. It was close to the graveyard.

19 Q. Did the houses start to burn because of shelling that came from

20 outside the village, or were there people in the village setting the

21 houses alight?

22 A. No. It was the police people, because in the beginning the army

23 convoy left the village in the road Pirane-Reti, and then the police were

24 behind them. They went to the mosque -- we went to the mosque and we

25 could see the police burning houses; while the shelling, I would like to

Page 4963

1 say, the minaret of the mosque was damaged that day because of a shell

2 that fell on the mosque.

3 Q. When you saw the police actually set light -- set fire to a house,

4 where were you located when you saw that, when you saw the policemen?

5 A. In the attic, under the roof in that house; I was for two hours

6 there. So they had not come close to our houses yet, to where I was

7 staying.

8 Q. But from where you were located, could you see the policemen?

9 A. Yes, yes. I could see them.

10 Q. Could you describe what you saw. One of the houses that you saw

11 being set alight, could you describe what you actually saw, if you start

12 describing the policemen.

13 A. Well, they had some kind of a gun in their hands, and they would

14 shoot that gun and the house then was on fire. And you could see the

15 smoke and the flames. I had never seen such a gun before.

16 Q. And approximately how many houses did you see that happen to?

17 A. During those two hours, about 15 houses. I could see the smoke

18 coming out of them. But when we left the village - because at 8.00, we

19 left the village, as danger was approaching - we went in the direction of

20 Serbica. So half of the village was burned that day, and the next day

21 they started burning it again. One person in Serbica had a pair of

22 binoculars and we could follow what was happening. There was a truck,

23 Zastava, and there were no people there in the village.

24 Q. So did you actually look in the binoculars yourself?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4964

1 Q. Thank you. Now, as all the other events are described in your

2 statement, I'm not going to ask you to elaborate more on this, but I have

3 a question that relates both to your statement and something you said in

4 the Milosevic case. Just to make sure that we understand correctly, are

5 you saying that initially, when you had left the town, where you sought

6 refuge, you were protected by the Serb population. Is that a fair way to

7 describe your evidence?

8 A. When we went to the village of Serbica, after some sniper shot

9 from a Serb house, Xhafer Elshani was killed and Mehmet Elshani was

10 wounded. They were at the head of the convoy. And then we stayed there

11 in a meadow. Some Serbs from the village, together with some Albanians,

12 told us to get shelter, to go somewhere and not stay outside. So we went

13 inside and the shots stopped immediately. And the villagers said that the

14 Serbs helped -- it was the Serb villagers that said: "We helped for you

15 not to be killed."

16 Q. And two last questions. You describe that the chief of the police

17 of Prizren came and said that those who were not originally from Serbica

18 would have to leave the village. Did you, yourself, see the chief of

19 police?

20 A. No, I did not see him personally, but he had given an order to

21 some leaders of the village and they gave us his message. And they came,

22 from house to house, to tell us that we had to leave.

23 Q. And the leaders of the village, what ethnicity were they?

24 A. One of them was Albanian and two were Serb.

25 Q. The last thing I would like to clarify is: You explain in your

Page 4965

1 statement that you -- in a stream behind the house of Mejdi Elshani, in

2 Pirane, in that stream, the police were burying bodies. Did you actually

3 see the bodies being buried?

4 A. I saw that they were working on the site, but I also saw that

5 there were three bodies that were thrown down there. But when we went

6 there later, we did not find any bodies, and the ground had been

7 flattened. I remember three bodies in black sacks that were thrown in,

8 plastic black sacks.

9 Q. How do you know there were bodies in the sacks?

10 A. Well, we could see they were carrying them. It was two people

11 carrying one sack, at both ends. Whether the bodies were Albanian or what

12 they were, I don't know. But several people still remain missing in

13 Pirane, and we went to look for the bodies at that place. We went also to

14 another area animals were buried, but we didn't find any.

15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Latifi. That finishes my questions at

16 this stage for you.

17 A. Thank you.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Latifi, what was the date on which you saw this

19 happening?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, the date was

21 the 27th or the 28th of March, one of these dates.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: In the next paragraph of your statement, you say:

23 "On one day I saw two police trucks on the road from Krusha with

24 many bodies inside. I do not know where did they take them."

25 Now, what's the full name of the place that you call Krusha?

Page 4966

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The full name is Krusha e Madhe,

2 greater Krusha. The trucks came from Krusha e Madhe. They came in the

3 direction of the mosque, and later I heard that they went in the direction

4 of the Drin River. And I think they were burned there.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, how do you know that there were bodies inside

6 the vehicle or the vehicles?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the back part of the truck, the

8 tarpaulin was a little bit open and there were two legs hanging down. And

9 the truck was so heavily loaded. And you could see that blood was

10 dripping from the truck.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: What day was this?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 28th of March, at about 12.00, was

13 the time.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we'll follow the indictment, and I

16 have no questions.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk -- oh, sorry, Mr. Visnjic.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do have questions

21 for this witness.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Latifi, my name is Tomislav Visnjic,

24 appearing for General Dragoljub Ojdanic. I have a few questions for you.

25 You mention in your statement that the situation in the village

Page 4967

1 calmed down somewhere from September 1998 onwards. My first question

2 relates to a period before that. In fact, maybe it's better to ask a

3 general question. Are you aware, Mr. Latifi, that any of your fellow

4 citizens from Pirana was kidnapped in 1998 or 1999 by the KLA?

5 A. I haven't heard of this for this period of time.

6 Q. Is the name -- I'll ask you now. Is the name Hazer Tarjani, from

7 Pirana, familiar?

8 A. Hazer Tarjani; it's Hazir or Hazer Tarjani. I heard that he

9 disappeared during this period of time. I don't know who kidnapped him,

10 but when he was found, he was buried among -- in the presence of his

11 friends, who honoured him.

12 Q. Do you remember when he was found?

13 A. I think he was found last year.

14 Q. So you don't know that, together with Muret Rrustemi -- sorry,

15 Hida Popaj from Bela Crkva, Bedri Bedrisa from Brestovac village, Besnik

16 Kosnatija from Prizren, and Hasan Morina from Senovac village, he was

17 kidnapped by the KLA, interrogated in Retimlje village and later

18 liquidated by the same organisation. You never heard of that?

19 A. No. As I said earlier, I don't know who kidnapped them. And as

20 for Hazir Tarjani, I know he went missing for some time and that he was

21 later found, and that he was buried with honours. The other persons you

22 mentioned, I don't know.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you mean by "he was buried with honours"?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was buried with the honours of

25 the co-villagers. There were many family and friends who paid homage. He

Page 4968

1 was not a bad person.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Mr. Visnjic.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. So we are still dealing with your statement where you said that

6 from September 1998 the situation in the village improved. I would like

7 to ask you if you are familiar with an incident from November 1998 wherein

8 the KLA attacked a convoy of police vehicles in your village.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] And may I please ask that Exhibit

10 3D139, page 2, be prepared?

11 Q. Do you know of this?

12 A. I'm sorry, but I haven't heard of this.

13 Q. Let me remind you, Mr. Latifi, from sometime in November, you used

14 to see the Kosovo Verification Mission and its representatives in or

15 around your village. Am I right?

16 A. Their members were always moving around, but I never came across

17 them, I never had any contact with them.

18 Q. Very well.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 3D139, page

20 2.

21 [Microphone not activated].

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. While we're waiting for the exhibit, I would just like to remind

25 the witness, this is a Kosovo Verification Mission report in which we can

Page 4969

1 read that, on the main route between Prizren and Djakovica, the KLA

2 attacked an MUP patrol with a rocket-launcher which resulted in wounding

3 of the two policemen. At that time you were in your village, weren't

4 you? That was on the 14th of November, 1998. Am I correct?

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] And could we please see page 2.

6 A. I don't remember whether I was there on that particular date or

7 not. I have not heard about this specific case that you're mentioning.

8 As for the Verification Mission report, you should ask their members about

9 it because I personally don't have any knowledge of this incident.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you leave your village in that period for a few

11 days at a time?

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] And could we now please see 3D136,

13 page 1.

14 A. Whenever we would see forces in movement or, for example, during

15 the Rahovec offensive, we did not stay in our house for a period of ten

16 days. And in my everyday life and work, I could have been in Prizren or

17 elsewhere and that's why I haven't heard of these incidents.

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Very well. I wanted to remind you, though, that on the 15th of

20 November --

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the second half

22 of this exhibit, please, the penultimate paragraph.

23 Q. On the 15th of November, the Verification Mission attended this

24 scene, that is the road close to your village, or rather, the road that

25 goes through your village, and they reported on a vehicle of the MUP which

Page 4970

1 had been damaged. They also found bloodstains. Does this jog your memory

2 in any way, Mr. Latifi?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Latifi, are you familiar with an event of the 18th

5 of January, 1999, when the KLA threatened the workers of the Kosovo vino

6 company in the vineyards to the north of your village?

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we also please have 3D137 put

8 on the screen.

9 A. The wine factory is near the village. Some co-villagers and some

10 of my cousins were employed there. I have not heard that anyone was

11 attacked there; however, on the 24th of March, an Albanian worker was

12 killed there by the forces. I've heard about this incident; I didn't see

13 it myself. He was killed outside the factory.

14 Q. Very well. I'll try to refresh your memory. On the 18th of

15 January --

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll down.

17 Paragraph 5. I think this is another document. D137, we had it on the

18 screen a minute ago.

19 Q. Mr. Latifi, you should be able to remember this document, because

20 after that the Serbs stopped working in the vineyards because the KLA

21 appeared in the vicinity and they were threatened; that's why they stopped

22 working. And the OSCE reported on this in their report of the 18th of

23 January, 1999. You say that quite a number of your -- well, you still

24 claim you don't know of this event?

25 A. The factory was still working. It was open until the first -- the

Page 4971

1 last day before the NATO air-strikes began. People were still going to

2 work there, and I think they received their last salary just before the

3 NATO air-strikes began. A neighbour of mine told me that he paid the

4 electricity bill from the money of his last salary, and I'm sure of this.

5 Q. The winery was open, but the people dare not go into the vineyards

6 to work. But since you're quite familiar with what took place at the

7 winery, could we please show 3D134, page 8 to the witness.

8 Mr. Latifi, did you know that in February of that same year, the

9 KLA, carrying infantry weapons, entered the perimeter of the Kosovo vino

10 company and at gunpoint they seized official weaponry from the security

11 workers of the company?

12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It should be 3D134, paragraph 163.

13 Q. You don't know about this at all?

14 A. I have not heard about it. As for the weapons that you say the

15 security workers had, to my knowledge, I don't think they had weapons.

16 I'm talking about the time earlier. And the later period, it could be so,

17 but that I don't know. I'm just speaking about the times earlier.

18 Q. You're trying to tell me that, prior to that, the security workers

19 were not issued with any weapons. What do you mean by "previously" or

20 "prior to that"?

21 A. I will clarify. The security workers, in the past, did not have

22 weapons. I worked there for three weeks, when you pick the grapes, during

23 that period, and I haven't seen security workers with weapons during that

24 time.

25 Q. Are you talking about the season in 1998?

Page 4972

1 A. Before 1997.

2 Q. Very well.

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please get Exhibit 147,

4 page 4, ready; 3D147, that is. I'll repeat. Exhibit 140, page 4.

5 Q. Did you know that the KLA kidnapped Ymer Xhafiqi, your

6 co-villager? They took him from his house on the 9th of March, 1998.

7 A. I heard that Ymer Xhafiqi went missing. I do not know who

8 abducted him. He was a security worker at that time; he worked at the

9 police customs office in the MUP. And his body has not been found to this

10 date.

11 Q. So you did hear of some of your co-villagers being abducted.

12 A. That's what the story was that day, but as I said, I don't know

13 who abducted him. And I only know about Ymer Xhafiqi. I don't know of

14 any other persons kidnapped or abducted from my village.

15 Q. Did you hear of that the same day or later? Do you remember any

16 such similar event?

17 A. This is a separate incident. I heard two days later that he was

18 abducted. Two days before that I was in Prizren. I was looking after an

19 uncle of mine who was ill. I remember this very well. And when I

20 returned to the village, I heard that Ymer went missing, that he was

21 abducted.

22 Q. So you are telling me that, for the two days, you were not in the

23 village, on the 9th and 10th of March.

24 A. It was in March; I don't remember the date. But I wasn't in the

25 village during those two days.

Page 4973

1 Q. Tell me, do you know that his wife testified, she confirmed that

2 he had been abducted by the KLA, and that after that his family wasn't

3 favourably looked upon by the other co-villagers for having reported that

4 incident to the police. Did you know that?

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please prepare Exhibit

6 D141.

7 Q. I apologise. Please go on.

8 A. His wife has a right to report that incident, because I think she

9 was on the spot when that happened. She was in the car with him. But I

10 don't agree with what you said, that they were not favourably looked upon

11 by the other co-villagers. As a family, we always had good relations with

12 this family and with other families in the village. I don't think that

13 the co-villagers looked upon her unfavourably.

14 Q. Just two other questions. I can see here that you actually know

15 how he came to be abducted. You say that she was in the same vehicle with

16 him. How come you know that, sir?

17 A. She stated this herself and her son as well. We were in Serbica

18 together at that time. We had good relations between us. This is how we

19 know. When I asked his son, "Who abducted your father," he gave me the

20 same answer, that he didn't know. We were in a cafe, in the village,

21 having a drink together.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have Exhibit

23 D141 shown to the witness --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: We have --

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Page 3. I have just one more

Page 4974

1 question and then I'm finished concerning this event.

2 Q. Sir, this is another Kosovo Verification Mission report in which

3 one can read that, due to that kidnapping, 60 percent of the women and

4 children left the village. Did you know about that? Did you know that

5 because of that abduction 60 per cent of the women and children of the

6 village left the village and spent at least one night out in the open or

7 outside the village?

8 A. No, I never said this. I don't remember myself saying this.

9 Q. I know you didn't say that, but I'm asking you whether you heard

10 of this, whether you know of the 60 per cent of women and children who

11 left the village. Is that correct?

12 A. Which village do you mean?

13 Q. Your village, Pirana.

14 A. This is not true. Not only children and women, but men, women,

15 and children left in the direction of Mamusha and another part in the

16 direction of Serbica. And not only 60 per cent but about 80 per cent of

17 the population left.

18 Q. I'm asking you about the 9th and 10th of March. On those two

19 days, did 60 per cent of the population of your village leave the

20 village? Is that correct?

21 A. No, I don't know about this.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is my last

24 question for today.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Maybe I've noted it wrongly. Was it the 9th of

Page 4975

1 March, 1998 or 1999?

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 1999, Your Honours. All the reports

3 pertain to 1999.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Well, Mr. Latifi, we have to stop there for today because another

6 case comes into this court for the afternoon, and we have to resume your

7 evidence tomorrow. For that purpose, you need to be back here to continue

8 giving evidence at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Meanwhile, it's very important that you don't

11 discuss your evidence with anybody, and that means either the evidence

12 you've given already or the evidence you will still have to give, or may

13 give, later tomorrow. You can talk about anything else you wish with

14 whoever you want, but you must not discuss the evidence. Now you'll be

15 shown where to go, and we'll see you again tomorrow morning. Please leave

16 the courtroom.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will have it in mind.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of

22 October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.