Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5054

1 Wednesday, 18 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milutinovic not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, your next witness, Mr. Marcussen.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: The next witness is Sabit Kadriu. Before the

8 witness comes in, there's one matter that I'd just like to address

9 briefly. We will be requesting, as we've indicated in our witness

10 notification, that the witness be transformed from a live witness to a

11 combined live and combined 92 ter witness. And we would be asking for the

12 admission of the witness's statement signed on the 10th of December, 2000.

13 In agreement with Norman Sepenuk, we will not be seeking to have one

14 particular paragraph admitted. It is on paragraph -- on page, sorry, 11.

15 The paragraph about the middle of the page which begins: "It was a

16 September offensive that made me believe that ..." that paragraph we will

17 not seek to have admitted as part of the evidence.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: You may be re-assured to know that I wrote in

19 brackets "we are not going down this road."

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: Whether I am re-assured, I'm not sure, but --

21 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: There is one thing I overlooked before starting. I

23 see that Mr. Milutinovic is absent, and I was alerted to this.

24 Mr. O'Sullivan, I take it there isn't any problem associated with

25 that.

Page 5055

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: You're correct, Your Honour ...

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. There is one other matter

3 that I would like to be clear about before we start, Mr. Marcussen. The

4 latter part of the statement is largely compiled of lists. Now, the first

5 list of 104 I can place in the indictment. Can you help me with what

6 follows from page 24?

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Those are a number of incidents which are not

8 scheduled in the indictment. We would seek these parts admitted as

9 context evidence for the events in Vushtrri, and for that purpose only --

10 like we had some of this evidence come in when witness -- Dr. Gerxhaliu

11 was here. He also spoke about some of these incidents. The only thing I

12 intended to do today is get one point of clarification about the 22 May

13 incident that I understand the witness has been involved in investigating

14 and has information about what happened to the missing persons and that

15 will tie in to some forensic evidence that will come later. But I was not

16 intending to spend much time on this part of the statement today.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: No, but the statement is likely to be admitted, as

18 you know, and we have to make what we can of it. But you've confirmed

19 what I thought, that it could be no more than background context or the

20 specific allegations to which the statement does relate.

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Indeed. It ties in with the issue of whether or

22 not there was a campaign and whether or not there was -- there's a bigger

23 picture which also -- well, on the national level -- eventually on the

24 Kosovo level, there would be discussions about the nature of the campaign

25 that took place there, but also on a smaller scale in the Vushtrri

Page 5056

1 municipality. But as I said, you're absolutely right, it's not -- they're

2 not scheduled incidents. We're not attempting to get the evidence in for

3 any crime-base purpose.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Well, the witness can now be brought into court.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Maybe I should respect the custom of just

7 indicating the paragraphs in the indictment. It's paragraph 25 and 26 --

8 and 26 -- 72(m), 75(i), 77(d), paragraph 88, paragraph 90, 94, 95, and 96,

9 and then Schedule I.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Kadriu.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration by

14 reading aloud the document now placed before you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

18 Mr. Kadriu, this -- the Court has before it a lengthy statement of

19 your evidence, which we've read, so we are aware of the evidence that you

20 can give to the Tribunal. You're here today, however, to enable counsel

21 to raise with you points that they wish to clarify, perhaps to add to, and

22 indeed to challenge. So in the course of your oral evidence here, we hope

23 that you'll be able to concentrate upon answering the particular questions

24 that counsel address, because in the end of the day, what we would like to

25 do is add to the information we already have rather than simply repeat

Page 5057

1 what we already know. And the first person to ask you questions will be

2 for the Prosecution, and that is Mr. Marcussen.

3 Mr. Marcussen.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examination by Mr. Marcussen:

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kadriu.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. Mr. Kadriu, did you give a statement to the Office of the

11 Prosecutor in December of 2000?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was that statement read back to you at that time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you sign the statement?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. More recently, have you had a chance to read through your

18 statement again?

19 A. Yes, I did read it.

20 Q. And was it discovered that in the Albanian translation there was

21 one paragraph missing?

22 A. Yes, that's correct, one paragraph was missing.

23 Q. And have you been given a draft translation of that paragraph that

24 you have had a chance to read?

25 A. Yes, I received it, I read it, and I signed it.

Page 5058

1 Q. Thank you. Now, the translation that you read and with the

2 addition of this paragraph that was missing from the translation, is that

3 a correct reflection of the events as you remember them?

4 A. I think, yes.

5 Q. So that if I were to ask you -- go through the whole statement and

6 ask you about these events, you would provide the same answers as those

7 that are included in the statement?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: So I'd like to then tender this statement as

10 P2377.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: We have uploaded to the e-court system the

13 Albanian translation of that missing paragraph, but of course it shouldn't

14 affect the B/C/S and the English version.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Does it have a different number?

16 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, it is added as an attachment to the existing

17 e-court file to avoid too many exhibits floating around.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


20 Q. Mr. Kadriu, where did you live in March of 1998?

21 A. In March 1998 I was living at home with my family in the village

22 of Brusnik.

23 Q. And how far is that from the village of Prekaz?

24 A. Brusnik is about 17 kilometres from Prekaze, maybe even less. 14

25 to 17 kilometres.

Page 5059

1 Q. You describe in your statement that on the 3rd of March you heard

2 gun-fire and artillery fire from the direction of Prekaz, and you explain

3 how you thought that that probably was an offensive in the area where the

4 Jashari family was living or lived and you tried to find out what was

5 going on. And then you say you met some people from Dubofc.

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Where did you meet these people?

8 A. I was a representative of the Council of Human Rights and

9 Freedoms, and it was our duty to be there when these things happened. So

10 I went to Dubofc, even further than Dubofc to see what was happening in

11 Prekaze because this village could not be seen from that village I was

12 in. Because it's the Cicavica mountain that separates us. It's between

13 two villages.

14 Q. Thank you. I think those are some of the details that are already

15 covered in the statement. What I would like to focus on with my question

16 is you say in your statement you met some people, and I'm just wondering

17 where did you meet the people who had come from Dubofc?

18 A. The truth is that as soon as my left my village, it was early in

19 the morning, a bus that was coming from Dubofc was passing through our

20 village, and thinking to go to Vushtrri with this bus. But from the bus

21 people got off. There were some refugees that had left these villages,

22 and this was the first time I was informed about this. I had heard the

23 shots before, but this is the first time I heard that the Serb police and

24 army had surrounded some villages in Prekaze area and that they had

25 surrounded the Jashari family. This was the first time I heard about

Page 5060

1 this, but I had heard the shots before that.

2 Q. And --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Kadriu, the question you were asked just

4 now was a very simple question. And the question was where you spoke to

5 these speak from Dubofc. Now, the answer was: In your own village.

6 And --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly, in my own village.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's four words, and we've got probably a

9 page of a transcript of information that counsel did not ask you for.

10 Now, can I remind you of what I said at the beginning, that you

11 concentrate on the question and answer the specific question because we

12 already have so much information from you. And the reason for that is, if

13 we are going to do justice to the many cases that are raised in this

14 indictment, we have limited time to spend on each one. That's very

15 regrettable, but it's a fact of life, I'm afraid, that we must concentrate

16 on the particular issues that are raised with counsel. So I invite you to

17 do that, otherwise we will not do justice to the case.

18 Mr. Marcussen.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was trying to clarify, Your

20 Honour. I was thinking here that I'm here to testify about these events.

21 I wanted to be more concrete in what I was saying.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, I don't doubt your good-will in that

23 respect, but please bear in mind what I've said to you that we,

24 nevertheless, in spite of the wish of all the witnesses who come here to

25 tell us a great deal more than they have already said, we do not

Page 5061

1 regrettably have time for all that. We must concentrate on the things

2 that really matter. So please help us to do that.

3 Mr. Marcussen.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Kadriu, you said that the people that got off the bus told you

6 about the events. Did they tell you which forces were involved in the

7 operation they were moving away from? You can maybe answer that with just

8 a yes or no.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What forces did they say were involved?

11 A. According to them it was the Yugoslav army because they had

12 artillery and tanks, but also the police, combined forces.

13 Q. Thank you. Another point of clarification about these events I'd

14 like to move on to is what happened next in terms of your investigation.

15 You describe in your statement how you went to Skenderaj and tried to

16 figure out what had happened from there. And then you describe how you

17 saw some bodies in -- in Skenderaj. I'd like you to try to explain to me

18 the conditions in which these bodies were -- were laid out. And you say

19 in your statement the police did not guard the place. What -- what did

20 that indicate to you, if anything?

21 A. It is true that three days later, after we did not hear the shots

22 anymore, a group of the Council for Human Rights, including me, we went to

23 the outskirts of Skenderaj. And in a construction warehouse they had put

24 the bodies of the Jashari family, but also other victims that had been

25 killed during this offensive. And there we made some photographs --

Page 5062

1 Q. Just so we break this up in bits so we get it all into the record.

2 You say "they had placed the bodies there." Who placed the bodies, if you

3 know?

4 A. The Serb police, of course.

5 Q. Why do you say that?

6 A. Because the bodies of the Jashari family -- well, I would say that

7 the whole area had been surrounded before by the police, so nobody could

8 enter that area. So they must have taken away the bodies. The bodies

9 were also cut and so on, and they had put them in this construction

10 warehouse. And not very far from this construction warehouse there were

11 some houses where the police forces were, about a hundred metres from the

12 place where the bodies were. And this was a little bit surprising for us.

13 They must have had their own reasons why they allowed us to see those

14 bodies.

15 Q. When you -- you explain in your statement that on other occasions

16 you have carried out investigations into alleged killings and things like

17 that. On those occasions, did you normally have access to bodies, if

18 there were any?

19 A. It's interesting and surprising. It was surprising to us that we

20 were allowed to see the bodies, and there was a big crowd of people that

21 came and saw the bodies. I thought that this was the beginning of the

22 operations, so the police and the army wanted to create panic and to

23 frighten the population. Because if you could see the bodies, it was a

24 horrible sight.

25 Q. Were the bodies also -- were these --

Page 5063

1 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't want an answer to your question then, Mr.

2 Marcussen?


4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, you answered a question you weren't

5 asked. The question you were asked was: Were you normally allowed to see

6 the bodies when you made your inquiries on the council?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the answer was yes.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: So why were you surprised on this occasion that you

9 were allowed to see them?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because before that operation we

11 were not allowed to see the bodies. There were no exhibitions of bodies,

12 so to say, before. So it had never happened before to be able to see the

13 bodies -- not only us but also the other citizens. Whoever came that day

14 was able to see the bodies.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 Mr. Marcussen.


18 Q. Were pictures of the bodies also broadcasted in the media, if you

19 know?

20 A. Yes --

21 Q. What media --

22 A. -- on the public television. At that time it was Pristina Radio

23 and Television, but we were watching the Tirana-based Pristina TV.

24 Because when the station was called -- was closed in Pristina, their

25 offices transferred to Tirana. So that's where we watched the operation

Page 5064

1 that had happened.

2 Q. I asked you about -- I'm not sure whether this was a translation

3 thing, but what I asked you was whether the bodies were shown in the

4 media. And the answer came back as something with the operation, but --

5 A. Yes, yes. We watched them on television. I remember that this

6 was also covered in other television stations such as Sky News. But there

7 were clips from this photograph or footage, but very short clips. I

8 remember the Sky News.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, tell us what did the clips from Sky News

11 show?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very brief footage of this

13 warehouse. First they showed something about the operation against the

14 Jashari family, and then there was this footage of people visiting the

15 warehouse, a line of people.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And did that show dead bodies?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only superficially. They were

18 mostly focussed on the line of people lined up there, and there was a

19 comment about what had happened. I don't understand English very well,

20 but what I remember is this queue of people waiting to go and see the

21 bodies of the Jashari family.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.


24 Q. I'd like to move on to something else than the bodies, but related

25 to what happened in February and March of 1998. To your knowledge, were

Page 5065

1 there people fleeing the area of operations?

2 A. From 1998 and on, from March 1998 and onwards, many people left

3 from the area where the Serbs were carrying out these operations.

4 Q. Were you involved in -- in registering some of these people in

5 your municipality?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like us if we could see Exhibit P8, please,

8 the second page of the exhibit. If we could see page 2, please. Thank

9 you.

10 Q. If you look at the screen now, there's a document being shown. Do

11 you recognise this document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Please just wait for my question --

14 A. This is a register --

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: My case manager quite rightly informs me that I

16 should point out that the English version of the exhibit, what we are

17 seeing on the screen, is actually page 4, if anybody are trying to find

18 the English translation of this document.

19 Q. Mr. Kadriu, could you just very briefly tell us what this document

20 is.

21 A. This document reflects the number of people who left these

22 villages, and you have the list of villages here from the municipality of

23 Skenderaj, but also two villages from the Vushtrri municipality. So they

24 had left those areas and had come to our town or to villages surrounding

25 our town. This is a list of villages, about 20, and you have the number

Page 5066

1 of the refugees that left those areas. And in the end you have the total

2 number of the people that we could register, because it was impossible to

3 go to each and every house and take record of everybody who had left. But

4 this reflects the situation at that time.

5 Q. And just on that exhibit, just one last short question that can

6 probably be answered again with a yes or no. Did you provide information

7 to the Red Cross which is included in this table?

8 A. Yes. The Red Cross also was carrying out its own investigations,

9 so we exchanged information with the Red Cross and we cooperated closely

10 with them.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: This is actually a Red Cross record, Mr. Marcussen,

13 is it?

14 MR. MARCUSSEN: It is, yeah, it has --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


17 Q. Now, in your statement you also describe that there was an

18 operation that was carried out in June of 1998, a bigger operation. And

19 you estimate that there were about 40.000 refugees coming to your

20 municipality as a result of these operations. Did you also participate in

21 registering these refugees that came in June?

22 A. Well, the activists of the Council for Human Rights and Freedoms,

23 but also the Red Cross and other organisations, took part in the

24 registration of these people. But people came mostly to the villages of

25 our municipality. We estimated that there were about 40.000 because they

Page 5067

1 were settled in Fushe Kosova, Obilic, Mitrovica, Skenderaj, so this is an

2 estimation --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, I am going to lose patience shortly.

4 You were asked a very specific question yet again which you failed to

5 answer. Did you personally participate - that was the question - in

6 registering these refugees that came in June? We already know the number.

7 We know it was a group of you that were doing it. We want to know if you

8 personally were part of the group doing the work.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I said yes.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. See how easy it is?

11 Mr. Marcussen.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Were the refugees given food and -- let's just keep it at food.

14 Were the refugees given food?

15 A. Yes, of course we had to give them food.

16 Q. Who provided the food for the refugees?

17 A. In addition to the families that helped them, there was also

18 Mother Teresa organisation, it had a chapter in Vushtrri at the time; and

19 they helped with providing food to these refugees.

20 Q. What about the authorities -- state authorities, did they provide

21 any food for the refugees?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you some short questions about the

24 attack on your village on the 22nd of September of 1998. You say in your

25 statement that you saw that in the morning -- early morning tanks were

Page 5068

1 taking up position around your village. Where were you when you saw the

2 tanks and ...

3 A. That morning I was at home, but when we got this information that

4 we were surrounded and we heard the rumble of the tanks, we began to move

5 and we wanted to take measures to leave to go somewhere, because --

6 especially me, who was a member of the Council for Human Rights.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you just describe for us very shortly -- in very

8 short terms: The tanks you saw, how did they look? First, what were they

9 driving on, were they driving on wheels or tracks?

10 A. The tanks we saw were of various kinds. I saw a big tank at the

11 cemetery of the village. Then I saw a Praga. That's what the Yugoslav

12 army called that, a Praga. It had big barrels. Then I saw a transporter

13 with rubber wheels, rubber tyres, and other motorised vehicles that were

14 not far from each other. They were positioned in the direction of

15 Cicavica where the operation would take place.

16 Q. The tanks, what colour was the tank? I guess there was only one.

17 A. The tanks were green, this SMB colour, olive-green-grey, while the

18 ones who were doing the searching were the policemen on the street, while

19 the tanks were a bit further away.

20 Q. Okay. Now, before we get to the people who entered the town, were

21 all the different vehicles you could see and you just described, were they

22 all the same colour, SMB?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Then you say that some people came to your village and you

25 described them as police. Now, what kind of uniform did they have on?

Page 5069

1 A. I saw them earlier coming out from the house. I saw them in two

2 houses that were not fully constructed. I saw policemen in green

3 camouflage uniforms and blue camouflage uniforms. They had helmets on

4 their heads, and they had anti-bullet vests. The -- these vests did not

5 correspond to the colour of their uniforms underneath.

6 Q. Okay. So --

7 A. Sometimes.

8 Q. Is it -- the people you saw who were in green uniform, were they

9 also police do you think? That's what it says in the transcript.

10 A. The police was the one that was doing the search and forcing the

11 people out from their houses, while the military, they were further on

12 their positions and they were observing the terrain.

13 Q. How do you know that the people who were in green uniforms

14 belonged to the police?

15 A. The Serb police wore three or even more than three kinds of

16 uniforms. Sometimes they would wear blue, blue camouflage uniforms;

17 sometimes green camouflage uniforms; and sometimes plain blue uniforms,

18 uniforms that they used to wear in the past, before the 1990s.

19 Q. But -- is there anything in particular about the people in the

20 green uniform that make you say that they were police? Could you see

21 something written on them? Did they have insignia on that you saw,

22 something like that?

23 A. I was able to see those insignia before, but on that particular

24 day I couldn't. I wasn't close. But that was the impression that I had

25 because we had seen the police forces on many occasions before and it

Page 5070

1 wasn't difficult for us to identify them.

2 Q. The last thing about this event is, you yourself escaped and you

3 told the young men to try to escape to the mountains. Why did you tell

4 the men that?

5 A. I feared for the life of the young men because these operations

6 usually ended with killings. That's why I suggested to the young men to

7 flee and hide somewhere, in order to save their lives.

8 Q. Thank you. You then in your statement page 8, from paragraph 3,

9 all the way through to paragraph 11, in quite some elaborate detail

10 explain an investigation that was carried out, and you give details about

11 people being killed and damage caused to different villages. Now, I have

12 a very short question about that, which is: Did you yourself go to all

13 the places that are listed in your statement?

14 A. Yes, I went to all the places that are listed there, and I visited

15 these places within three days.

16 Q. Who were with you, if anybody? When you say "we" in the

17 statements, who were the others?

18 A. There was another colleague of mine, another activist of the

19 Council for Human Rights and Freedoms. Sometimes we were two, sometimes

20 we were three, depending on the possibility for movement.

21 Q. Thank you. Did you keep notes or other kinds of records during

22 those days?

23 A. Yes. The places that I visited and the bodies that I saw, I would

24 keep notes and forward them to the Council for Human Rights and Freedoms.

25 Q. Thank you. And when you gave your statement to the Office of the

Page 5071

1 Prosecutor in December 2000, did you consult your notes when you were

2 telling the Office of the Prosecutor about these events?

3 A. Yes, that is correct, because it is impossible to remember

4 everything; that's why I consulted my notes.

5 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to move on to the events that happened in

6 March, from the 27th of March, 1999, and onwards from there. And I have

7 some specific questions that I'd like to ask you to clarify some issues?

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: But just for the information of the Court in -- on

9 page 12 at paragraph 3 there are references to the attachment at the back

10 of the statement. These attachments are -- you will have seen them

11 before, these camouflage patterns. Just for reference purposes, a colour

12 copy is found as Exhibit IC42.

13 Q. Sorry, Mr. Kadriu, to get back to you now. You explain in your

14 statement that you recognised one of the policemen that came on the 1st of

15 April. You identified him as Dragan Petrovic.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How do you know him?

18 A. Every citizen in Vushtrri municipality knows Dragan Petrovic

19 because he was known for the terror and violence that he exercised on the

20 citizens of Vushtrri. This very same Dragan Petrovic with others would

21 often come to the school where I worked. They were involved in the

22 arrests and they would arrest us and take us to the police station for

23 interrogation. So it's not only me who knew him; everybody in Vushtrri

24 municipality knew him.

25 Q. But you have been arrested and interrogated by him, and therefore

Page 5072

1 you know his name. Is that what -- was that the correct --

2 A. When they were taking us to police stations for interrogation, he

3 would verbally offend us and he would order his subordinates to take our

4 personal data.

5 Q. That wasn't my question, though. Did he tell you your name -- his

6 name, sorry. Did he tell him -- did he tell you his name either when you

7 were arrested or when you were interrogated or how is it you know his

8 name?

9 A. We simply knew his name. From 1990 onwards, we always had

10 problems with Petrovic. There were occasions -- so when the name of

11 Petrovic and Ljubisa Simic would be seen on the end of the statements that

12 were taken from us.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you describe a little further on in your

14 statement that you saw a man named Ali Mernica and you describe how he was

15 taken away and you think he got shot. Now, this gentleman, you explain,

16 had been lending some of his houses to be used as schools when the school

17 was closed down in 1991. Did you ever -- when you were giving lessons to

18 school children, were you ever giving lessons from any of his houses?

19 A. Ali Mernica gave three or four of his beautiful houses to us to be

20 used as Albanian schools for years.

21 Q. And did you have occasion to meet him personally before the events

22 in 1999?

23 A. Yes, several times.

24 Q. Thank you. You describe in your statement also when you were

25 imprisoned you recognised different people. And I would just like you to

Page 5073

1 be very -- in very short terms, just describe how you recognise these

2 people, why you knew them? The first is Dusko Janjic, how do you know

3 him?

4 A. This was the second time that I was being imprisoned. After they

5 arrested us, we were taken to Smrekovnica prison. There I recognised

6 Janjic. I knew him from before, but he was a leader of that team that was

7 taking our personal data before we were sent to prison.

8 Q. And -- and where do you know his name from?

9 A. I knew his name because in 1995 and in 1997, when I was arrested

10 for my activities in the Council for Human Rights and Freedoms and for my

11 activities as an Albanian teacher, he had called me for interrogation to

12 ask me questions about my activities in the Council for Human Rights and

13 Freedom. Now I remember his full name, Dusko Janjic.

14 Q. What about the gentleman that's referred to in your statement as

15 Simic? How do you know him?

16 A. Simic was deputy police commander Dusko Janjic. I know Simic

17 because he also came to our classrooms, to our parallel schools, and

18 interrupted our lessons. I know that at one occasion he maltreated one of

19 my colleagues. He slapped her on her face, this Ljubisa Simic, in front

20 of the students.

21 Q. In your statement you -- you didn't give a first name for Mr.

22 Simic, but do you now remember his first name?

23 A. It's Ljubisa Simic. It is possible that I forgot because it

24 happens sometimes to me that I don't remember the name for the moment.

25 Q. Now, also in the prison there were two other gentleman and they

Page 5074

1 are the last ones I'm going to ask you about. Zoran Vukotic, how do you

2 know him?

3 A. Just before 1998, Zoran Vukotic worked in the administration of

4 the municipal court in Vushtrri. He later was mobilised as a policeman.

5 He was a monster, a criminal, who would beat up and maltreat whoever he

6 wanted. That's why it wasn't difficult to recognise him in the prison,

7 because he repeated what he did elsewhere in the prison as well; he

8 maltreated people there.

9 Q. How have you learned his name? I understand that he was a --

10 according to you, he was a notorious person, but how do you know his name?

11 A. It wasn't difficult to learn his name. You see, our municipality

12 comprises of not that great number of inhabitants, and everybody knows

13 everybody, so to say. As an activist of the Council for Human Rights and

14 Freedom, I was interested to learn about him, why he was so notorious.

15 Q. And --

16 A. He was the son of Danilo Vukotic.

17 Q. And Sasa Manojlovic, how do you know him? And really, the basis

18 for your knowledge of his name, please.

19 A. I didn't know Sasa Manojlovic from before. I first met him when I

20 was sent to Smrekovnica prison. Together with Vukotic, they exercised

21 brutal violence over the prisoners. Another colleague, a professor who

22 was in prison with me and some other villagers from Drvar village where

23 Sasa Manojlovic was from, they told us about him because they knew very

24 well who he was.

25 Q. Now, about the prison, how many people were in the cell that you

Page 5075

1 were in?

2 A. In the beginning, not so many, and later on we were 63 even in one

3 cell. Everything was full, the corridors. There was no room to swing the

4 cat.

5 Q. How big, approximately, was your -- the cell you were in?

6 A. 4 by 3 or 4 by 4. I did not measure it, but that was my

7 impression.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we see Exhibit P46, please.

9 Q. Do you recognise this document?

10 A. Yes, I do recognise this document.

11 Q. Is that a document that you found and gave to the Office of the

12 Prosecutor?

13 A. I found it in the offices of the Municipal Assembly, especially in

14 the offices of people's defence, general people's defence -- not only this

15 document. I found other documents as well, and I have them with me here.

16 Q. When did you find these documents?

17 A. I don't remember the exact date, but it was immediately after the

18 war ended.

19 Q. And did you yourself collect these documents?

20 A. As a chairman of the Commission for War Crimes Investigations, I

21 was supposed to collect this document, and we kept them in the archives of

22 our municipality.

23 Q. The documents, when you found them, could you describe how they

24 were located. Were they found on a desk? Found in binders? Put on

25 shelves? Where did you pick them up?

Page 5076

1 A. These documents in particular were found in a drawer in office

2 number 9. In the beginning, we didn't think they were important, but

3 later on they turned to be very important. Some friends who knew Serbian

4 better than me helped me to translate these, and that's when I realised

5 the importance of these documents and separated them from other documents

6 that were sent to archives.

7 Q. Now, this -- this document is about -- is a request for supplies

8 to the prison in which you were detained, and there's requests for all

9 sorts of things, flour, sugar, beans, and cattle for slaughter. Were you

10 ever given any meat in the meals that you had in the prison? Thank you.

11 Yes or no will be fine.

12 A. No.

13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we now move on to Exhibit P53, please.

14 Q. This document, is that also one that you found?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that document is dated on the 16th of May, 1999, and it says

17 that there are a total of 830.000 men arrested. Does that number, do you

18 think, correspond to about the number of prisons there were -- prisoners

19 there were in the prison where you were detained?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: 830 I think is the figure.

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: What did I say?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: 830.000.

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: That would have been a big prison.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: It was, yeah.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The prison where I was, there were

Page 5077

1 about 2.000 people in there. The document that was on the monitor a

2 minute ago shows the number of the prisoners in Smrekovnica prison, but

3 this figure might have been in the initial stages. Later on, as I

4 explained, as people were returned from the convoys that were heading to

5 Albania, and brought to the prison in Smrekovnica, this number became

6 higher and reached the figure of 2.000.


8 Q. Thank you. Related to the events in -- prior to you being

9 detained --

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like to -- if we could see Exhibit P2386.

11 Q. Now, again, is this a document that you have found?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could I ask you, this first paragraph of the body of the text

14 explains that there were -- the document is about the number of refugees

15 in Vushtrri on the 30th of May, and it says the president of the Municipal

16 Council is signing this document and the document says there were about

17 30.000 refugees at that point in time. Does that correspond to what you

18 know about the number of refugees?

19 A. Yes, that's correct. Even without having seen this document, when

20 I gave the statement I gave you this figure, that approximately 30.000

21 people were there.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to ask you about some more documents

23 that you found, and then we'll get back to your investigations?

24 MR. MARCUSSEN: First, could we see P1335, please. Thank you.

25 Q. Now, this document, is that also one of those that you found?

Page 5078

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it is about the -- a decision to appoint Slobodan Doknic as

3 president of the Crisis Staff. Slobodan Doknic, do you know him?

4 A. Yes, I know him very well.

5 Q. From where?

6 A. From much earlier he was my Serbian-Croatian language teacher

7 while I was in secondary school, and later on we were colleagues. We

8 worked together in the Muharrem Bektashi high school in Vushtrri.

9 Q. And is he the same gentleman that you talk about in your statement

10 on page 4 in the third paragraph, who informed you that the school had

11 been closed?

12 A. The same person, yes.

13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Then I'd like if we could see Exhibit P477

14 [Realtime transcript read in error "447"]. Thank you.

15 Q. And again, this is a document you found?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that's a list of members appointed to the Crisis Staff in your

18 municipality dated on the 17th of June, 1998. Among the names listed as

19 being members of the Crisis Staff, are there any -- are there any

20 Albanians?

21 A. There are no Albanians on this list -- excuse me just a second.

22 On the upper right-hand corner it says "narodna odbrana," people's

23 defence, and beneath it it says that it's a confidential document. Just

24 look at the upper, right corner of the document.

25 Q. Yeah, thank you. That's reflected in the translation of the

Page 5079

1 document as well. Now, I'd like us to then move on to ...

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, I made a mistake and due to the very

4 diligent efforts of the court staff, we did get the right exhibit on the

5 screen although there's a problem in the transcript. But at page 25, line

6 14, the exhibit there should be P477.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Now, could we see Exhibit P1334, please.

9 Q. This document, again, is that one of the documents you found in

10 the municipal building?

11 A. Yes, together with the other documents that were shown.

12 Q. And this document is a document establishing a census commission

13 for your municipality, and it's been established by the Municipal Crisis

14 Staff upon the 3rd of May. So that would have been the day after the

15 convoy that you were in had come out from the northern area -- the area

16 north of Vushtrri. What is the ethnicity --

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. What is the ethnicity of the people in -- in this commission?

19 A. Except for one who is Albanian, the others are Serbian or

20 Montenegrin.

21 Q. Now, at this point I should probably ask you if you know: What is

22 the ethnic composition of your municipality? What was it before the big

23 movements of people, obviously, so in 1998 let's say.

24 A. Almost 100 per cent were Serbs and Montenegrins. With the -- when

25 the autonomy of Kosovo was revoked, the Albanian workers in the

Page 5080

1 administration were dismissed; only a few remained, continued to work.

2 And among those who remained there is the name of the person who is on

3 this list, of the Albanian on this list.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that answer is to the question of the

5 composition of the officials of the municipality.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, I think so.

7 Q. In the --

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour --

9 MR. LUKIC: I apologise, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: I think that this is completely wrongly translated.

12 This has nothing to do with the census commission. This is some kind of

13 recording commission. What are they going to record, it's not clear at

14 all from this document. Because in Serbian, you don't say "popisna

15 komisija" you say "komisija za popis stanovnistva" which is a completely

16 different matter and this document is not serving the purpose in which the

17 Prosecution is driving this part of the examination.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you may be right, Mr. Lukic, but I think

19 that's a matter for you to explore in cross-examination. Thank you for

20 alerting us and the Prosecution to the difficulty.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain here, Your Honours?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time commissions -- census

24 commissions were formed because the Serbian government wanted to know the

25 exact number of people that they had expelled and the number of people who

Page 5081

1 had remained there. On the 3rd of May, it was this commission -- I don't

2 know if all the people who are listed there were its members because I

3 couldn't see that, but this was the commission who was registering the

4 number of the population and who were expelling the people to Albania. Of

5 course that is not written on the document, what was the purpose of that

6 commission, but this is what that commission was involved in doing.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Marcussen.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we'll move on to the next exhibit, that

10 will be P8 -- sorry, P487. Could we see the second page, please, of that

11 when it comes up. Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Kadriu, is this also, yet again, one of the documents that you

13 collected from the municipal office?

14 A. Yes, it is a --

15 Q. And what -- carry on, what is this document, please?

16 A. This document was found in a notebook. It's the notes of the

17 people who were mobilised at the time. This is what we found, and we gave

18 it to the Tribunal investigators.

19 Q. It looks to me like the -- the upper part of the document is

20 written in Cyrillic, but then all the names are written in the Latin

21 script. Do you have any idea why that is?

22 A. Yes -- I don't know. This is what we found. This is the exact

23 document we found, and we gave it to the investigators. I didn't pay much

24 attention to it. Sometimes they wrote things in Cyrillic, sometimes they

25 did write them in the Latin alphabet.

Page 5082

1 Q. Before coming here today, have you had a chance to look at the

2 names included in this list?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And --

5 A. When I came here to testify in the Milosevic case, I confirmed all

6 these names and there was cross-reference with other documents as well

7 that we found about this mobilisation of people.

8 Q. What is the ethnicity of the people included on this list? As far

9 as you can judge from the names.

10 A. If I'm not mistaken, they're all Serbs and Montenegrins. It's

11 been a long time that I have not seen this document.

12 Q. Now, I'd like to get back to a question that I asked before and I

13 think we need to clarify the answer on that. In your municipality, how

14 many Serbs, Albanians, and Roma were giving there, if you know

15 approximately the relationship in percentage maybe between the different

16 groups?

17 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to give you an exact answer, but I know

18 that about 90 per cent or over 90 per cent were Albanians, and then the

19 rest were Serbs and Roma and so on.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. There was a census that was carried out in 1981. I was young at

22 the time, but there was no other census carried out later on.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to go back to your statement now and --

24 beginning at page 21 you describe -- you list, essentially, the victims of

25 the convoy massacre on the 2nd of May, 1999. You have described earlier

Page 5083

1 that you carried out investigations of events happening in your

2 municipality. Did you also investigate the second convoy -- the 2nd May

3 massacre?

4 A. I was myself in this convoy on the 2nd of May, but later on I

5 investigated the case, because I wasn't able to see everything while I was

6 in the convoy. So we had to investigate further on later.

7 Q. Of course the events in the convoy and what you experienced there

8 is included in your statement that the Judges have accepted. So that is

9 part of your evidence. The -- did you have somebody -- did you alone

10 carry out the investigation or were there other people involved as well?

11 A. We investigated together with the representatives of the

12 investigation commission. I was head of the commission, but there were

13 other members as well. Every fortnight we held a meeting and we discussed

14 each case separately. We also exchanged information and reports, and we

15 discussed all the cases. This happened every other week.

16 Q. And how did you collect the names included in this -- in your

17 statement? Did you interview witnesses to the killings, for example?

18 A. Yes, we interviewed the witnesses of this massacre, and please,

19 Your Honours, if you need the files, I have the files of each of the

20 witnesses, what they have said. If the Bench would like to have these

21 files, I would make them available for you.

22 Q. Did you -- you or other members of the commission who interviewed

23 witnesses, did you take written statements from them?

24 A. Yes -- well, the witnesses were interviewed and we took notes, and

25 we wrote everything. So on the left we had the witness sign the statement

Page 5084

1 and then the interviewer signed on the right-hand side. I don't know if

2 we have files for each and every one of the victims, but we have most of

3 them. And you also must have a file from the testimony that I gave in

4 Milosevic case with sketches of the place and names of people and so on.

5 It must be here in the Tribunal.

6 Q. It is indeed. We are not introducing it as part of the evidence

7 in this case.

8 When you gave your statement in December of 2000 to the Office of

9 the Prosecutor and listed all these names in your statement, did you then

10 consult the investigative file in compiling this list of names that's

11 included on the statement?

12 A. Yes, together with the investigators at the time; as far as I

13 remember, yes, we did.

14 Q. Are you -- well, you explain in your statement also -- you explain

15 in your statement that some of these bodies were exhumed. Do you know the

16 location where these exhumations took place?

17 A. It was immediately after the war. I can't remember the month,

18 maybe July or August. There was a French team that carried out the

19 exhumation -- not only in Studime, but also other mass graves. This case

20 was in Studime, so the exhumation took place in Studime. But we did not

21 have any extensive information from this team that carried out the

22 investigation -- the exhumation.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, where is the reference to the

25 exhumation in the statement?

Page 5085

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think it's after the list of names. I hope I'm

2 not mistaken -- that's obviously wrong.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it may -- it may not matter, but it -- there

4 is to be other evidence identifying these named victims who appear in

5 Schedule I?

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, I have notified by e-mail my colleagues that

7 I would be suggesting that we tender from the bar table the French

8 forensic reports after the testimony of this witness -- and, sorry, yes,

9 it actually only says that the burial -- indicated that there was a burial

10 taking place of the victims. Now --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you continue, can I ask one question of

12 the witness.

13 Was Bajram Mulaku a member of your Committee for Human Rights and

14 Freedoms?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Bajram Mulaku was either

16 chairman or vice-chairman of the LDK, a party.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not my organisation.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like if we can show from Exhibit P333, page

21 13.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Kadriu, this is black and white.

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Can we zoom in on the top part of the photo,

24 please, the top one. Well, that doesn't come up in the quality I'd hoped,

25 but anyways --

Page 5086

1 Q. Do you recognise this place on the photograph?

2 A. Yes. This photograph depicts the area between Studime e Eperme

3 and Studime E Poshtme where the killing on the 2nd of May happened. It's

4 at the entrance of the mass grave.

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: In light of how the pictures looks, Your Honour, I

6 don't want to go into it any further.

7 Q. But this is where the mass grave was found?

8 A. Yes, it is between the two Studimes. It is closer to Studime e

9 Eperme.

10 Q. There is a road that can be seen on the photograph running

11 horizontally about the middle of the photograph. Where are the -- where

12 are the graves found, on which side of the road, closer to the viewer or

13 further away, behind the trees?

14 A. The graves are beyond the river. There's a river here. It's very

15 unclear here in this photograph, but the image, the general image, from it

16 I can see that it's beyond the river. It's the monument there and also

17 the graves, because a monument was raised there to commemorate these

18 victims.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Let's try, if we could, go to the next page,

20 please, and see the lower photograph on that page.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Can I continue with my

22 comment? This is clearer.


24 Q. So is this the entrance to where the grave were found?

25 A. Yes. This is the entrance to the graves, but now there is a

Page 5087

1 bridge there; so it is different now from what this photograph depicts.

2 This photograph must have been taken immediately after the war because a

3 bill -- a bridge has been built here and there is also a monument, as I

4 said.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kadriu. My last question relates to --

6 A. You're welcome.

7 Q. -- to the investigation that you were also involved in which

8 concerned the killing of 74 people on the 22nd of May. In your statement

9 you say that the people -- the 44 -- the 74 persons are missing. Have

10 you, since you gave your statement, received information about what the

11 fate of these people was?

12 A. Yes. When I testified then, we didn't know anything about these

13 people. They were missing -- although we suspected that they were killed,

14 but we did not have any proof to that. In the meantime, from Batajnica 5

15 bodies were returned and most of the 74 people -- the bodies of these 74

16 people were then buried in the cemetery for war crimes victims. But at

17 that time, we didn't know that these victims were executed on the 22nd of

18 May on a street which is now called the 22nd of May, and then they were

19 sent to a mass grave in Batajnica in Belgrade. And each body had a figure

20 on it and "Batajnica" written on it. Not all of the bodies were returned,

21 but most of them were returned.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we call up as the last exhibit for today

24 P2393.

25 Q. Mr. Kadriu, this document, do you recognise this?

Page 5088

1 A. This document includes the name of the people who were eliminated,

2 and the bodies of these people were returned from Batajnica. We kept

3 record of the names when these groups of bodies were returned.

4 Q. Did you prepare this list?

5 A. Yes, yes, together with a colleague, we both compiled the list.

6 This is not a list of all of those that were returned. These people were

7 killed on the 22nd of May, of course, yes, but we only wrote down names of

8 those who were returned.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, that includes my questions to the

11 witness at this point.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: So far as this event is concerned, are you going to

13 be offering evidence of what happens at Batajnica 5?

14 MR. MARCUSSEN: It's my understanding that we're going to present

15 evidence from all the Batajnica sites, although now suddenly I have doubts

16 I must say, but that is how I understand we are going to present the

17 evidence.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Because this is an event that's not specified in

19 the indictment. Is that correct?

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: That is correct --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: It's not -- I'm not changing anything that I said

23 this morning. It's simply to supplement the statement to the extent that

24 the statement indicate that the persons are missing and the witness now

25 knows that they are dead.

Page 5089

1 JUDGE BONOMY: When was the work done on Batajnica 5?

2 MR. MARCUSSEN: 2002/2003 I think.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was 2002, yes.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you now going to deal with the matter you

6 mentioned of tendering documents from the bar table?

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: If that is a convenient time or I can do it when

8 we're finished with the witness and cross-examination is over which it

9 was --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you should deal with it before

11 cross-examination, just in case there are any issues arising.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Okay. Well, what I would seek admitted is the

13 French forensic reports from the exhumations that took place of victims

14 from the 2nd May massacre. The exhibits are: P331, 332, 333, and 334.

15 There's also a summary report made by the forensic -- the French forensic

16 team which has P206, and there the relevant pages are pages 10 to page 18.

17 And there's a ballistic report which also concern this particular site,

18 and that is included on page 40 of Exhibit P210. And I would seek those

19 exhibits and parts of exhibits admitted at this stage.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: What are P331 to 334?

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: They are extensive forensic records of the

22 exhumations that were taking place, documenting the unearthing of the

23 corpses and the exhumation of the bodies to determine the cause of death.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

25 Mr. Visnjic.

Page 5090

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a question or a

2 comment. As far as I understand, the OTP will, as relate -- as regards

3 the forensic report, will have a witness who will be able to be

4 cross-examined by the Defence. I don't know whether our cross-examination

5 will be limited in any way if this document is now being considered. I

6 don't know whether it should be tendered by us after our

7 cross-examination. Technically speaking, to me it seems the same, given

8 that we are able to cross-examine the expert of the Prosecution who will

9 testify regarding the forensic reports.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: That is, of course, if the Trial Chamber don't

11 grant your motion to refuse to hear any experts. Were you suggesting that

12 the motion doesn't apply to this expert?

13 MR. VISNJIC: Just a moment, Your Honour.

14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps it will be best

16 for me to suggest to postpone the decision on these exhibits, pending the

17 resolution of our motion.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I hear what you say, Mr. Visnjic.

19 Mr. Marcussen, will there definitely be a witness through whom

20 these could be tendered in any event?

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: I take it "definitely" meaning in case you are not

22 granting the Defence motion, but there's a -- what we're proposing is an

23 overview witness to -- through who we intend to present all the forensic

24 reports of this nature, who -- yeah, who had been involved in parts of

25 this but not all the exhumations.

Page 5091

1 JUDGE BONOMY: One of the difficulties of Mr. Visnjic's motion, of

2 course, is that you have a number of allies on the Defence side, if in

3 fact you're opposed to the motion. So the situation is not black and

4 white.

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: Indeed.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Anyway, we shall reflect on your suggestion that

7 these be admitted from the bar table, and we'll give a determination at

8 some point in the course of the day.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: If I may, sorry, one more --


11 MR. MARCUSSEN: I know we are running late. I would also seek

12 admitted something I indicated in our witness notification but didn't

13 raise this, sorry -- bring up this morning. The witness has identified a

14 number of policemen, and I would seek the same names appear on page 4 of

15 Exhibit P2235. That is -- I think that has been referred to as the A

16 response regarding alleged perpetrators and other pages of that document

17 have been admitted in the context of testimony of other witnesses. So I

18 would seek to tender page 4 of that particular exhibit as well.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, have you any comment on that?

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, just for the record, we had the same

21 objections we had previously regarding these documents.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And the view we've taken so far is that it's really

23 a matter of weight in due course and that you will have an opportunity to

24 make appropriate submissions before we decide ultimately what value these

25 documents have.

Page 5092

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again we'll reflect on whether that ought to

3 be admitted, but the decision is likely to follow that of other parts of

4 it.

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, we need to take a break at this stage.

7 So you'll be shown where to wait --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Your Honour, I only have one

9 request, because I've brought here some slides from Kosovo and you can see

10 there the Jashari family massacre. If the Bench wants to have those

11 slides, I can put them at your disposal as material proof.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, are you aware of the existence of

13 these?

14 MR. MARCUSSEN: I am aware of the existence of these photographs,

15 and Mr. Kadriu kindly brought these photographs at our request. I chose

16 yesterday when I saw them that we wouldn't be trying to tender them at

17 this late stage. Thank you.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

19 Mr. Kadriu, I think everyone appreciates the effort you're making

20 to give us as much information as you possibly can to the Trial Chamber.

21 The issues that we have to determine, however, I doubt would be assisted

22 by the material you're suggesting we consider. In the process that we

23 follow here, it's normally left to the parties in the case - that's the

24 Prosecution and the Defence - to propose the introduction of materials

25 such as the slides you're referring to. Mr. Marcussen has indicated that

Page 5093

1 having considered the position and bearing in mind the rules that apply to

2 these proceedings, it's not necessary to do so. And we would, I think, go

3 along from that situation. If someone from the Defence side takes a

4 different view, then you may find you're asked questions about it. But

5 for the moment we're grateful for the action you've taken, but we don't

6 think that would add to the information necessary for us to decide the

7 crucial issues in this case.

8 The usher will show you where you can wait during the 20-minute

9 break, if you --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... please leave

12 the courtroom before we do. Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll resume in 20 minutes, which will be just

16 after 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, before the witness comes in, I just want

21 to inquire how much time the Defence has with these kind of mixed

22 witnesses, live and 92 ter.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you suggest is appropriate in this case?

24 MR. LUKIC: I don't know how much the other teams have -- but I'll

25 have probably the whole session.

Page 5094

1 JUDGE BONOMY: It's difficult to pigeon-hole every witness. It's

2 easy when it's a simple crime-base witness that's presented under 92 ter

3 essentially and is examined for only half an hour. We can deal with that

4 fairly easily. We can deal with live witnesses fairly easily by equality

5 with exceptions. What would you suggest in this case would be the

6 appropriate approach?

7 MR. LUKIC: I think the Prosecution would agree with me they

8 skipped a lot of the original statement from this witness and they

9 focussed only on certain points. So I think we have to clarify many

10 things that they did mention today.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: You're not helping me.

12 MR. LUKIC: 92 ter.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you suggest?

14 MR. LUKIC: When we cross-examine 92 ter witnesses we have double

15 time they have, as I understand.


17 MR. LUKIC: But I don't think we'll need double time.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: So you'll do your best to complete the witness

19 within today?

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And possibly earlier than the end of today. That

22 seems to me not unreasonable in that case.

23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, do you have any comment to make on that, Mr.

25 Marcussen?

Page 5095

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, Your Honour. We -- it is a 32-page statement,

2 which probably exceeds some of the other ones.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: It's actually not really a problem for you. It's

4 more of a problem for us in the overall administration of the case. The

5 Prosecution are affected by a global figure; the Defence are not. But

6 we're alert to that difficulty and we have to make adjustments to

7 accommodate the exigencies of each individual witness, but hopefully there

8 will be other occasions where it's not necessary to examine quite as long

9 as the Rules permit and time can be recovered. If not, we will have to

10 review the situation, but hopefully we will not need to do it. And things

11 will sort themselves out as we go long.

12 Mr. O'Sullivan?

13 [The witness takes the stand]

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The order will be: General Lukic, General

15 Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Milutinovic, and Mr.

16 Sainovic.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kadriu. My name is Branko

21 Lukic. I am one of the Defence counsel of Mr. Lukic before this Tribunal.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. I will first try to cover certain point -- points from your

24 testimony today. When you were talking about exhibit P8 where it was

25 estimated that there were about 30.000 refugees, you said the state had

Page 5096

1 not provided the food for these refugees. Did you request food?

2 A. At that time it was absurd to ask for food from the body that was

3 expelling you from your own house. People were being expelled at

4 gunpoints, and they not only didn't dare to come close to their offices --

5 Q. Thank you, thank you. However, we saw later - because the

6 Prosecution showed Exhibit P2386 - where aid is requested from state

7 authorities for 30.000 people. Was food requested from the statement at

8 that time or did the state offer it itself?

9 A. A document that was found at the location that I mentioned earlier

10 points out the fact that the government had that practice to show in a

11 document as if the food has been requested or distributed, but in reality

12 that was not the case. People were starving. They would even eat roots

13 in order to survive. In my village during the summer of 1998 when people

14 fled from Drenica --

15 Q. So it is your testimony then that the exhibit tendered by the

16 Prosecution today, this document, is not accurate. Is that your

17 testimony?

18 A. No. The exhibit presented by the Prosecution is a document of the

19 Serb government, but that document is not accurate. The document says

20 that we should provide the prisoners and the refugees with food, but that

21 did not happen in practice.

22 Q. Thank you. You spoke about Smrekovnica, and we'll get back to

23 that later. Let me now ask you about your testimony today. How many

24 people from your convoy were sent to Smrekovnica? Do you know that?

25 A. There were about 30.000 people in the convoy, but when they

Page 5097

1 separated us that were sent to prison from our families, at that moment I

2 don't know how many we were. But I can say that we were a lot. The

3 trucks were taking prisoners to this prison throughout that day. These

4 were big trucks that were confiscated from Albanians, and they were used

5 for our transport to the Smrekovnica prison. Later on --

6 Q. Thank you. If there is something you don't know, just tell me: I

7 don't know.

8 A. Excuse me, if you just allow me to explain something. Later on we

9 learned from some prison guards that the --

10 Q. Excuse me. Just a moment. As the system functions here and as

11 Judge Bonomy explained to you, we ask you questions and you answer them.

12 If the other side, that is the Prosecutor, believes that you need to

13 explain something additional, they will ask you to do that. However, we

14 don't have time for long explanations. We have your statement, we have

15 your evidence and your transcripts, and we are trying to finish with your

16 evidence today. Thank you.

17 A. Please, I'm giving the answers the way I think I should answer

18 your question, not the way you want me to.

19 Q. My next question, Mr. Kadriu, since you didn't tell me that you

20 knew how many people had been sent to Smrekovnica, do you know how many

21 men were in the convoy in which you were moving? If you say, I don't

22 know, that's acceptable.

23 A. No, I don't know how many men were in the convoy.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know roughly what proportion of the convoy

Page 5098

1 was male?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we consider the fact that there

3 were about 30.000 people in this convoy and the document that we showed

4 here has that figure, we could say that about 10.000 were men because the

5 convoy also consisted of women, children, elderly, and so on.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you. Out of those 10.000 men, not more than 800 were sent

8 to Smrekovnica because we saw the figure of 830 in that document.

9 A. Yes, but within three days that number amounted to 2.000

10 prisoners, and there is a document that speaks of 2.000 prisoners in that

11 prison.

12 Q. I suppose that men were also arriving at Smrekovnica from other

13 areas, not only from your convoy. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, there were cases.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. You're welcome.

17 Q. At the beginning of your written statement, you speak of the fact

18 that your brother was involved in logistics in Tirana. A logistics

19 officer. Did that involve the procurement of weapons and equipment for

20 the KLA?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. Not weapons but mainly the registration of the volunteers who were

24 coming from other places to go and fight in Kosova, issues that were

25 related with the recruitment.

Page 5099

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. My brother was studying in Tirana, and by the very fact that he

3 was studying in Tirana he was a non grata person in Kosova and could not

4 come back.

5 Q. You say that you demanded a Republic of Kosovo and that you were

6 involved in the movement for freedom of the region. Did this involve the

7 territories -- all territories populated by Albanians, ethnic Albanians,

8 including Greece, Macedonia, Montenegro, southern Serbia, and Kosovo?

9 A. No, not Greece, but the other territories inhabited by Albanians

10 had similar organisations. At that time we were demanding the creation of

11 the Republic of Kosova within the framework of that Yugoslavia, and we now

12 do not demand a republic but we demand Kosova's independence.

13 Q. We know that. Thank you. You were also a member of the Council

14 for Human Rights, established in 1990. Who were the people on this

15 council, who were the members?

16 A. Are you referring to the central council or the branch where I was

17 active? It's not clear to me.

18 Q. Your branch, which is the object of your evidence.

19 A. In the beginning we were many members, about 70 members of the

20 Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms. There were passive

21 members, so to speak, and the leadership consisted of seven or eight

22 members. Maxhuni --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the first name.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was the chairman of the branch.

25 However, later his house was searched and due to the risk he moved to

Page 5100

1 Albania and then I replaced him and became the chairman of the counsel.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can we conclude that all the members of that council were ethnic

4 Albanians?

5 A. There were also two ethnic Turks who were members, but no

6 representatives of other minorities.

7 Q. You dealt with violations of human rights. Did you concentrate on

8 the violations of human rights of certain ethnicities? For instance, did

9 you follow just violations of the human rights of Albanians?

10 A. No. We were the body that investigated violations of human

11 rights. But the majority -- in majority of cases the rights of the

12 Albanians were violated. As for the Serbs, Serb government protected

13 them. They gave them lands and properties. There was a case when a

14 forest ranger was killed, and I filed a report to the Serbian Council for

15 the Defence of Human Rights and Freedom. I suspected this case to be a

16 murder, and I forwarded this information to the centre council. And I

17 would like to emphasise again that had there been such cases, I would have

18 investigated them.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. You're welcome.

21 Q. In one part of your statement you said people were being killed in

22 Kosovo, and afterwards it was said that they were the casualties of war in

23 Bosnia and Croatia. I don't really understand that part of your

24 statement. Is it your testimony that somebody would die or be killed in

25 Kosovo and the authorities would then say that the person had been

Page 5101

1 actually killed in Bosnia and Croatia?

2 A. No, no. It must be a confusion. In this particular point I'm

3 speaking about the young men who were serving in the JNA. When the war in

4 Croatia and Bosnia began, the young men from Kosova did not want to

5 come -- become criminals and killers of innocent people, and therefore

6 they were persecuted by Pavkovic's people. These men were sent back to

7 Kosova in coffins, and later on we would investigate these cases. This is

8 what I meant --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, just a moment, which page of the

10 statement is this on? I remember reading it, but --

11 MR. LUKIC: English page number 4, paragraph number 5; Albanian

12 same; B/C/S same.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That's fine. Thank you.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Is it your testimony today then that people who refused to serve

16 in the army were killed?

17 A. Well, if it was for serving in the army, I myself served in

18 1987/1988 and completed my military service. But when the JNA was

19 involved in the killing of civilians in Croatia, they did not want to go

20 and serve in the JNA. They were reluctant to do so. They didn't want to

21 go and kill innocent civilians.

22 Q. Well, I asked you if anyone was killed because they didn't want to

23 go to the army. I think that's what you seem to have said a moment ago.

24 A. Well, we would find bullet wounds on the bodies. On three bodies,

25 for example, the body of a young man from Reznik village contained bullet

Page 5102

1 wounds, so he was killed. That's why we believed that this was the case,

2 that the officers killed the soldiers.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, what you're saying is that these were

4 Albanians serving in the JNA who refused to do what they were told and

5 were sent back in coffins? Is that the position?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. They were reluctant

7 to participate in the war in Croatia. Officers were killing JNA -- JNA

8 officers were killing the Albanian soldiers who were serving at that time

9 with the JNA. There are many cases of soldiers from Kosova who -- whose

10 bodies were returned in coffins. I want to explain here in the doctrine

11 of --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's all I need to know from you. Mr. Lukic will

13 continue with his questions. Thank you.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Kadriu, is that the way you drew conclusions when you dealt

16 with killings in Kosovo, whenever you would find a bullet wound or traces

17 of injury on the body, you assumed that the persons concerned were victims

18 of execution?

19 A. No, not in all cases. For example, there was a body who had been

20 killed -- of a person who had been killed as a result of a shelling. It

21 was confirmed that he was killed as a result of a shelling. Forensic

22 experts would look at the bodies. If you allow me, Mr. Lukic, I want to

23 explain here. The Yugoslav army existed to defend the people from attacks

24 from outside and not to kill their own people. The soldiers from Kosova

25 considered the civilians from Croatia as part of their own people.

Page 5103

1 Q. Mr. Kadriu, we are now entering a debate which is not the purpose

2 of my cross-examination. I did not ask you about shrapnel and similar

3 wounds. Whenever you found indications of death by a bullet, did you draw

4 the conclusion that it was an execution?

5 A. No, that was not always the case.

6 Q. Thank you, thank you. We'll move on. You first heard of the KLA

7 in 1991 you say. Do you know what the objectives of the KLA were?

8 A. That's correct, yes. The violence, the oppression exercised by

9 the police, the army, and other mechanisms that were at the disposal of

10 the Yugoslav government made people flee their own homes and shelter in

11 the mountains. We didn't want the war, but they would not leave us alone

12 in our own houses. They would beat us up in the presence of our family

13 members, in the presence of our mothers, sisters. My father was beaten up

14 in the presence of my sisters; therefore, we were forced to take up arms

15 and fight in order to defend ourselves, for self protection reasons.

16 Q. Very well. We can then conclude that you, too, were a member of

17 the KLA because you say "we had to take up arms and defend ourselves."

18 A. No, personally I was not a member of the KLA. Had I been a

19 member, I would have told you so, but I wasn't. I was a member of the

20 Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms. It would have been

21 an honour to be a KLA member, but I wasn't.

22 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the KLA already in 1996 launched

23 actions in which they attacked the police forces, such as in Gornja Klina,

24 village of Bukos, the KLA attacked a police check-point and killed two

25 policemen from Srbica. Do you know about that?

Page 5104

1 A. There was no police station in Bukosh village; however, the police

2 forces, sometimes accompanied by military forces, would go to villages and

3 harass people. People, while protecting themselves, they would --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Please listen to the question. The question is:

5 Do you know about the killing of two policemen at a check-point in the

6 village of Bukos in 1996? Now, do you know about that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, but, Your Honours, there

8 was no check-point there --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. You say "no check-point." Mr. Lukic will

10 now obtain clarification of that from you.

11 Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This killing happened in the village of Gornja Klina, which is

14 very near your village of Bukos. Is that correct?

15 A. Mr. Lukic, I don't think you have this right, because Klina is

16 very far from my village. There is another Klina which is in Skenderaj

17 municipality. If you mean Prekaze, then it is close to my village. But

18 Bukosh, yes, it is close to my village.

19 Q. Are you then aware that in Bukos in 1996 members of the KLA,

20 headed by Adem Jashari, together with Milahim and Meho Zeka attacked this

21 police check-point?

22 A. No. That's wrong. This did not happen in Bukosh village in 1996.

23 I'm absolutely sure that there was no attack on Serb forces then. I think

24 you have the wrong information. I am sure that there was no such attack

25 in Bukosh village in 1996, as you said. But in March 1999 there was, and

Page 5105

1 it wasn't an attack, it was in self-defence. Mr. Lukic, you don't have

2 accurate information.

3 Q. Do you know of an attack in Gornja Klina?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You claim it didn't happen or you don't know about it?

6 A. No, I'm just saying that I don't know about it.

7 Q. Are you aware that Adem Jashari was one of the leaders of the KLA

8 back in 1996?

9 A. I know that he was a KLA leader, but I don't know as of when he

10 became a leader.

11 Q. Thank you. You know that in 1998 the KLA was so strong that it

12 held the territory of Drenica, as you say in your statement. Can we

13 conclude that at that moment in that area there were no Serb forces?

14 A. In 1998, with the exception of the roads that were controlled by

15 the Serb forces, there was no Serb forces presence in the villages; but it

16 is true that the roads, the main roads, especially, were controlled by the

17 Serb forces.

18 Q. Do you know whether KLA members spent time in the villages within

19 the territory they controlled?

20 A. Could you repeat.

21 Q. Is it correct that KLA members did not only stay in the forests

22 and mountains, but that they also spent their time within the villages in

23 the territory they controlled. For example, their headquarters were

24 usually at -- or inside schools in such villages.

25 A. They were not usually in schools, but they had their own points, I

Page 5106

1 mean the KLA, but not inside the neighbourhoods or the family homes of

2 people. If there was an empty house built by someone, they would use it,

3 but they were not staying in people's houses. Maybe somewhere they used

4 schools as well, but what you are saying that this is an ordinary thing, a

5 usual thing, that they were staying in schools, I wouldn't say that.

6 Q. Thank you. I used this by way of example, and I didn't want to

7 illustrate that this was a practice. Back in 1998 and 1999, were there

8 any KLA members who did not wear uniforms, do you know of that?

9 A. Possibly, yes, because there were many people who wanted to join

10 the KLA, and of course they did not have enough supplies to give everybody

11 a uniform.

12 Q. Thank you. In your statement of the 28th of February, 1999 --

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And for the Chamber in English this is

14 page 5, paragraph 5; in the Albanian, page 5, paragraph 4.

15 Q. You talk about having heard artillery fire from the direction of

16 Cirez and Likosane. As regards that, I wanted to ask you the following:

17 Did you hear that precisely on that day there was a KLA attack against a

18 regular police patrol in the villages of Cirez and Likosane?

19 A. I heard the Serb artillery myself. It was early in the morning.

20 They were shooting against Qirez and Likoshane. I did not know in the

21 beginning that they were shelling those villages, but I could hear the

22 noise very well. But later on when I went there, I heard that combined

23 police and army forces had attacked these two villages. There were other

24 villages as well that were attacked, but in these two villages people were

25 killed. These are places that --

Page 5107

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, the question was: When did you hear

2 about the killing of the two policemen?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear about that. I heard

4 later on that there was an exchange of fire, but I did not hear about the

5 killing of the two policemen.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Your statement says: "According to them, that's

7 people from Cirez and Likosane, a day earlier there had been an exchange

8 of fire between the KLA and the Serbs and two Serbian policemen had been

9 killed in Cirez."

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I might have heard later that

11 there was an exchange of fire. But of course at that time when I gave the

12 statement, my recollection was better. That was something I learned from

13 other people, not something that I knew personally. However, nobody spoke

14 about the bodies of these two policemen, it was not in the Serbian media,

15 they did not say anything about the killing of these two policemen.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I hope you understand why you are being asked

17 the question because you have signed a statement in which you said that

18 you met people who had told you that there had been an exchange of fire

19 between KLA and Serbs and two Serb policemen had been killed in Cirez.

20 And all Mr. Lukic wants to know is: Did you find out the very day it

21 happened or did you find out some other time? That's all he wants to

22 know. It's simple. You say you can't remember and it would help if we

23 get straight on with it. Is that correct, you now can't remember?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I had heard about the

25 exchange of fire, but later on, as it says in the statement, I heard that

Page 5108

1 policemen were killed. But this is not something I verified myself, it

2 was something I was told.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: It does not say in the statement "later on", that's

4 why Mr. Lukic is asking the question to find out when it was that you

5 learned about this. And the answer I'm noting is that you don't now

6 remember. Is that correct?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I don't remember exactly. It

8 was later, though.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Therefore, you were not present during the

12 conflict or the skirmish in Cirez. You haven't witnessed it?

13 A. No. I went to Cirez later, because if I had been there present in

14 the conflict I would not be here to testify today.

15 Q. Well, we don't know that. Is it correct that you didn't see the

16 bodies of those killed either?

17 A. Yes. The people who were killed, the Ahmeti family, and the

18 Sejdiu family. This, though, happened one or two days after the battle or

19 the exchange of fire that happened there. We also photographed the bodies

20 of the victims, and I can show those to you, if you want.

21 Q. Do you know whether the people that had been killed participated

22 in the incident on the side of the KLA?

23 A. No. The Ahmeti family, none from -- no one from that family was a

24 member of the KLA. Also, the same can be said for the Sejdiu brothers.

25 However, there is one from Nebiu family -- a couple from the Nebiu family.

Page 5109

1 They were not with the KLA, but they were armed to protect their homes.

2 But I know from the Sejdiu family and Ahmeti family, no one was a member

3 of the KLA. However, these Nebiu, they -- the Nebiu family, they

4 resisted, they had arms, but I'm not sure that they were members of the

5 KLA.

6 Q. All those killed during the incident were in the immediate

7 vicinity of the skirmish. Isn't that correct?

8 A. Well, this was not a shooting range. These were villages

9 inhabited by people, and this happened at their home. These people were

10 told to get out of their family -- of their family home. For example,

11 there was this Rukija woman who was shelled, and half of her skull was

12 missing. This was a populated area.

13 Q. I suppose that that shell hadn't been fired from up close, but

14 that rather it came from afar and it was directed against the positions

15 from which fire was opened on the Serb forces. Is that correct?

16 A. Listen, the Serbian forces entered the village and went to Nebiu's

17 family to search the house and they resisted. However, the woman that I

18 mentioned, Rukija, she was killed by anti-aircraft fire, and she was on

19 the second floor of her house and she was hit. And the upper part of her

20 skull was missing when I saw it. I remember that body.

21 Q. Thank you. Here you also mention the state of those corpses. Say

22 the corpses from the Ahmeti family, were they sent to the Pristina

23 hospital and was any autopsy carried out?

24 A. This is what was said at the time, and I know this because the

25 population gathered there for their funeral and the bodies were delayed in

Page 5110

1 Pristina. And the graves had been opened. We were waiting at that time

2 for 23 people that we wanted to bury, not only the Ahmeti family. There

3 were children amongst the victims as well.

4 Q. You haven't answered my question. Is it correct that the bodies

5 of the members of the Ahmeti family were sent to the Pristina hospital and

6 that an autopsy was carried out? Do you know of that or not?

7 A. I don't know where they were, either in Pristina or elsewhere, but

8 I know that they were returned later, and we could see that the autopsy

9 had been carried out. We could see them -- the bodies. But however, I

10 cannot say whether they were in Pristina or somewhere else. The bodies

11 were returned very late in the evening.

12 Q. Thank you. You mention your suspicions as regards the women of

13 the Ahmeti family and that those women had been raped. In the reports you

14 sent to the council, did you specify the names of those women?

15 A. Listen, we heard that the women were late because the men had been

16 killed --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, could you answer the question, please.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. The question was: In your report to the council, did you put them

20 on notice that these women may have been raped and did you specify their

21 names?

22 A. We did not mention the names. We only said that it is possible

23 that this could have happened -- it's a traditional thing. It's something

24 that has to do with a culture of the country. We wanted to send a woman

25 to interview these women because we, as men, could not interview them.

Page 5111

1 You can imagine how difficult it would be for a raped victim to say that.

2 Q. Did you send that woman to interview them?

3 A. No, we didn't send anyone. I asked the central committee to send

4 a doctor, a woman doctor; however, we did not hear later whether they had

5 sent one or not.

6 Q. Thank you. You say that the Jasharis were often targeted by the

7 Serbs since they resisted in arms. Is that correct?

8 A. The Jashari family was attacked earlier as well, but it did not

9 resist at that time. It was very difficult to say whether they were

10 resisted or not or what the extent of their resistance was because we

11 could not hear the shots or the firing from their guns because the

12 artillery and the shots from the police force and the army was such a

13 rumble, and we could not get into the area.

14 Q. Is it correct that the Jasharis actually applied aggressive rather

15 than defensive tactics? They were the people or some of the people who

16 inter alia attacked policemen and civilians?

17 A. Jashari, when he was killed, was at his home. And the question

18 is: What were the Serb forces doing at his house? It was not the first

19 time that his house was surrounded. Even in 1998 women of the Jashari

20 family were wounded.

21 Q. But it is also not the first time that Adem Jashari, with his

22 brothers and cousins, attacked Serb forces and the Serbian police. Is

23 that correct? And after that, there would always be a chase, trying to

24 catch them.

25 A. Where do you mean exactly? Where did these attacks happen? Where

Page 5112

1 did Adem Jashari and his brothers attack, because I don't have any

2 information about that?

3 Q. I asked you about one such incident, and you said you had no

4 information on that. So I will move on.

5 A. Could you please tell me: When did they attack and where?

6 Because he was killed at his own house.

7 Q. Thank you. I wanted to move on. You provided your answers as

8 regards the Gornja Klina incident. You said that you didn't know about

9 that. When Adem Jashari was killed, there was an incident, a clash

10 between him and other members of the KLA and the Serb forces as the

11 opposing force. Is that correct?

12 A. No, that's not correct because it was the Serbs that attacked with

13 their artillery. You cannot resist the Serb forces with tanks and

14 artillery with only automatic rifles; that would be absurd.

15 Q. Is it correct that fire was opened from the Jashari house at the

16 Serb forces?

17 A. It's not correct because from the distance they were shelling the

18 house with artillery, and then they entered there. Pavkovic can tell you

19 better how these things are done.

20 Q. Therefore, it is your testimony today that no fire was opened from

21 the Jashari house at the Serb forces. Is that correct?

22 A. I don't believe they could. I was not there, but taking into

23 account the heavy weaponry that the Serbs had, I don't think that Adem

24 Jashari would be able to resist them. He could not face a whole army of

25 tanks and artillery with only automatic guns.

Page 5113

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, Mr. Kadriu. Your statement says: "We

2 learnt that the Serb military and police forces had surrounded the house

3 and the Jasharis had resisted. It was on the third day that the Serbs had

4 finally managed to overcome the resistance when the Jasharis ran out of

5 ammunition."

6 Now, do you want to withdraw that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was not there, nobody

8 was there. This is something I thought had happened, but later I was

9 thinking about it and thought that Adem Jashari could not do anything

10 against that force. Adem Jashari was killed on the first day; however,

11 the Serb forces continued to shell the place until the third day, on the

12 7th, when the infantry entered.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Am I wrong in thinking that you investigated this

14 matter?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I investigated it later -- even

16 recently I learned that Adem Jashari was killed on the first day.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Now, you provided the statement, which I've

18 just read to you, which talks about the Jasharis running out of

19 ammunition. Now, we're likely to think that that refers to some form of

20 bullet or projectile in a gun. Would we be wrong to draw the conclusion

21 that your findings were that the Jasharis eventually ran out of ammunition

22 and couldn't resist any longer?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thought earlier that

24 Adem Jashari was killed on the last day, but now I have a different

25 opinion regarding this. And people have different opinions about the

Page 5114

1 event. I learned that Adem Jashari was killed on the first day and he

2 could not have resisted the rest of the days. I thought because the Serb

3 artillery was shelling for three days that he was killed on the last day,

4 but this was not the case because he was killed on the first --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be helpful if you could say things just

6 once. You were asked at the beginning of your evidence if you had a

7 chance to go over your statement and verify that it was accurate, and you

8 told us after taking the solemn declaration that your statement is

9 accurate. Are you now telling us it is not accurate any longer because of

10 other information you have discovered?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I gave this

12 statement, this was what I knew at the time. Even today I'm not fully

13 convinced of this version I'm giving today. This is something I am

14 thinking today, but, you know, there were people that say that Adem

15 Jashari was killed on the first day; other people that think he was not

16 killed on the first day. But we can't know exactly what happened because

17 no one of us was there.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that mean that you cannot give us any reliable

19 evidence about how the Jashari family died?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way how they were killed, yes,

21 because I have the photographs and the slides here; and also, there was

22 continuous shelling. But I don't know when Adem and when his members of

23 the family died. Even the Serb forces don't know when Adem Jashari was

24 killed, whether the first or the second day, because they continued to

25 shell for three days, non-stop. The Jashari family was under shelling for

Page 5115

1 three days. When Adem Jashari was killed, we don't know. The only

2 survivor is a girl, Besarta is her name I think.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. In the course of your investigation, did you interview that little

6 girl who, according to your words, is the only survivor of the incident?

7 A. Besarta was in a very bad way. She was very young at the time.

8 She was not able to give information. We talked to her, but there was no

9 official interview carried out. She was very young at the time, so it was

10 impossible to get the information from her.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you know that Adem Jashari, at the very beginning

12 of the clash, killed a special forces member, one of the people who came

13 there to try and arrest him?

14 A. I don't know about this.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you know that Adem Jashari did not allow his

16 brother Hamza to surrender, although he wanted to, but Adem threatened to

17 kill him?

18 A. How do you know this? Were you there inside the family --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, please answer the question. Do you

20 know or do you not know about this?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know, but this did not

22 happen, sir, because --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop, please. You don't know. That's the end of

24 it.

25 Mr. Lukic.

Page 5116

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. [Interpretation] If you don't know something you cannot assert

3 that something did not take place. Either you know or you don't. As

4 regards how I know that, well I can tell you that. This was stated by one

5 of the OTP witnesses. Let us move on and please listen to my questions

6 and answer. I didn't ask you --

7 A. Listen, Mr. Lukic, your comment is absurd. How could anyone know

8 what they talked among themselves?

9 MR. LUKIC: If he continues this way, I don't know how to control

10 him anymore.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he is being controlled. Just you go on to

12 the next question, please.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement at page 7 of the English

15 version, paragraph 4; the same goes for the Albanian, you state that the

16 Serb forces thought there were some KLA forces at Cicavica and that is why

17 they were shelling the hills. Did the Serb forces only think there were

18 KLA forces at Cicavica or were there some KLA forces there indeed?

19 A. This was in 1998 or early 1999. At the time, there was no Serb

20 [as interpreted] presence in the area, but at that time they were later

21 shelling the villages because they wanted to frighten the population. It

22 was Pavkovic's people who did that; I know that they shelled.

23 Q. In your statement in the English page 7, paragraph 5; the same

24 goes for the Albanian, you state --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on to that, the transcript

Page 5117

1 says: "At the time there was no Serb presence in the area."

2 Now, is that what you said, Mr. Kadriu?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where do you mean?

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've just given an answer --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning of 1999 --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just listen --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- March, April --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: -- to me for a moment. It's your last answer. The

9 question was: "Did the Serb forces only think there were KLA forces at

10 Cicavica or were there some KLA forces there indeed?" And your answer

11 was, according to the transcript: "This was in 1998 or early 1999. At

12 the time, there were no Serb presence in the area."

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant KLA forces. That's a

14 mistake. I meant KLA.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: That clarifies it. That makes sense now.

16 Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. You also state at page 7, paragraph 5, that the war between Serbs

19 and the KLA began in Drenica around June, 1998. This is precisely the

20 area held by the KLA at the time. Isn't that so?

21 A. Yes, that's correct, as far as Drenica is concerned, but not the

22 other part of Cicavica.

23 Q. And due to the fighting between the KLA and Serb forces, already

24 at that time around 40.000 people moved out from Vucitrn and Mitrovica

25 municipalities. Is that correct?

Page 5118

1 A. Can you please repeat your question; it doesn't seem complete to

2 me.

3 Q. Is it correct that due to the conflict between the KLA and Serb

4 forces, around 40.000 people moved out from Vucitrn and Mitrovica

5 municipalities -- sorry, Srbica and Vucitrn?

6 A. No. We can't say that. There was fighting between the KLA and

7 Serb forces, but the Serb forces were exercising oppression over the

8 civilian population, Mr. Lukic. The KLA were guerilla units, and they

9 were moving. They were not fighting all the time on a front line, but it

10 is true that the Serb forces exercised pressure over the civilian

11 population.

12 Q. Is it correct that this conflict spread to include Sajice,

13 Dobovac, Galice, Bitici, Osljane, Okrastica, Zilivoda villages which in

14 fact constitutes an entire half or the eastern part of the Vucitrn

15 municipality? Sorry, sorry, the west part, the entire west part of

16 Vucitrn municipality.

17 A. Yes, the western part. Later on in that part, it is true that

18 here and there KLA units were beginning to be formed, established.

19 Q. After this offensive and the clashes between the KLA and Serb

20 forces, people returned to their homes. Is that correct?

21 A. Which offensive are you referring to?

22 Q. 1998.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 A. Yes. This happened between 22nd and 24th of September. The

Page 5119

1 population began to return in some parts, not in all villages. For

2 example, in my village people came back, but in other areas they couldn't

3 go back to their homes because they had their homes burnt.

4 Q. In your statement on page 8, in English paragraph 4, and the same

5 goes for the Albanian version, you say that you went to Galica in Vucitrn

6 municipality and found 11 bodies there. You did not see how those people

7 had died. Is that correct?

8 A. That's not correct. Not in Galice but in Cicavica mountains. We

9 found them at Cicavica mountains but buried them in Galice. These young

10 men were from Galice and there were children among the victims as well.

11 Q. There were three 16-year-olds among the victims; we can see that.

12 A. 16-year-olds, 17-year-olds, 22-year-olds, and so on.

13 Q. A person 20 years old, not even 16, in a state of war is not a

14 child; they can carry weapons.

15 A. No, these were civilians. The Serb logic was that just because

16 they were Albanians, they were all soldiers. So whoever had --

17 Q. All right. But, please, could you answer my question. You did

18 not see how those people had died, yes or no?

19 A. No, I only saw the bodies --

20 Q. Nobody in fact saw how those people had died.

21 A. No, they didn't say, but they could hear the screams. Sabit

22 Mehmeti and two or three other persons who were with him could hear the

23 screams while these victims were being massacred. They were hiding there

24 nearby in the mountains and could hear the screams, while for -- as far as

25 the burial of these bodies is concerned, I, together with many other

Page 5120

1 villagers, buried these bodies in Galice.

2 Q. You personally don't know whether those people were armed or not.

3 Is that correct?

4 A. I am sure they were not armed. Some of these 16-year-olds were my

5 pupils -- not my pupils, but they were pupils in the school where I was

6 teaching. They were civilians who had fled the Serb terror, the Serb

7 violence, and sheltered in the mountains.

8 Q. They were from Galice village; that's not --

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. That's not your village. Is that correct?

11 A. That's correct. But it still is in my municipality and not very

12 far from my village.

13 Q. Can you claim with any certainty today that those people were not

14 armed at that time when they were killed, when they died; and if you can,

15 then on what basis?

16 A. I'm fully convinced that not only these 14 persons that we buried

17 in Galice, but many others as well who were killed on that day were not

18 armed. I'm fully convinced about this because I knew some of the victims.

19 For example, a father and two sons were killed, a 16-year-old son and a

20 7-year-old son. Here are their names Gani Ademi, Fatmir Ademi, one of

21 them was 16-year-old, the other 7-years-old. Please, these are pupils.

22 Why, Mr. Lukic, are you insisting this much about this case when I know

23 that you yourself believe that that is not the case. These were

24 civilians.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic doesn't believe anything as far as this

Page 5121

1 case is concerned, Mr. Kadriu; he represents parties who may believe

2 certain things, but he is not a person who can be accused of believing

3 things so far as this Tribunal is concerned. This is a place of which it

4 is suitable for us to interrupt. We'll resume for one-half of an hour and

5 we'll resume at 10 minutes to one. You'll again be shown, Mr. Kadriu,

6 where to wait.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the age of the second

8 son is 17, not 7.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Please bring the witness in.

15 [The witness takes the stand]

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Kadriu, we are trying to finish with your evidence today, but

19 I'm afraid that if we continue, as we have been doing so far, we won't

20 succeed. That's why I would like to try to ask you to try to focus and to

21 give me brief, precise answers so we can finalise your testimony today.

22 To save time, I'll skip a couple of pages from your statement and

23 go to page 13, paragraph 3 of the English version, which is page 12, last

24 paragraph, in Albanian. And there you say, describing the situation in

25 your town, you heard the police yelling and telling people to go to the

Page 5122

1 cemetery. You also say that at the cemetery, which the civilians were

2 leaving, there was no police. You found there a bus of a tour company

3 Hajra Tours and those buses were driving people out of Vucitrn. The

4 company drivers were telling people that they should go out of Vucitrn and

5 into Macedonia. You did not listen to the advice given by the bus drivers

6 and you did not go to Macedonia. Is that correct?

7 A. It is true that there was no police at the cemetery. The police

8 was emptying the town and making the people move in the direction of the

9 cemetery. I think there were three buses of Hajra Tours company, and the

10 drivers told us that they were forced by the police to take these people

11 out of the town to Macedonia. Some people got on the bus, but there was

12 not enough space for everyone. So there were people on foot who was

13 going -- who were going in the direction of Macedonia. I didn't go to

14 Macedonia; I went to Shala e Bajgores area. I waited for the evening to

15 come in order to proceed, and that's how I got to some villages that are

16 in Shala e Bajgores area.

17 Q. We're definitely not going to finish today if you continue this

18 way.

19 A. Mr. Lukic, I came to testify here, and you cannot answer your

20 questions by simply yes or no. Some questions do need explanation.

21 Q. So your answer to my question is that you didn't take the advice

22 of the bus drivers who told you to go to Macedonia; instead, you went

23 elsewhere. Where did your family go?

24 A. My family got on the bus. My mother, after 2 or 3 kilometres,

25 noticed that I was not joining them, and she made the other members of the

Page 5123

1 family get off the bus. So they got off the bus and stayed in these

2 outskirts near the cemetery, and they stayed at the house of some uncles

3 until the war ended.

4 Q. So they didn't take the advice of the drivers either to go to

5 Macedonia?

6 A. Yes. They did take the advice, but since I did not join them, my

7 mother made my family get off the bus. My parents, my sister, they got

8 off the bus and did not proceed the journey.

9 Q. Thank you. Nobody prevented you from going to Gornja Sudimlja.

10 Is that correct?

11 A. It was a risk that I took. It was dangerous to cross the main

12 road, but we took that risk and reached that area.

13 Q. You went to Gornja Sudimlja, which at that time was a stronghold

14 of the KLA. Is that correct?

15 A. From lower Studime to upper Studime that's how the road goes, and

16 that's where we went. It was a KLA area, yes.

17 Q. You went to the house of the KLA commander Musa Terbunja. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, I wanted to spend the night there, but the house of Musat

20 Terbunja who used to be my colleague, he was a professor, it was full of

21 people. And at this point I do not remember whether I asked for food and

22 proceeded to Cecilia. But I think I asked Musa's mother to give us food

23 and proceeded to Cecilia. I remember that his house was full of refugees

24 who had fled the villages nearby.

25 Q. Do you believe that it is important for these proceedings whether

Page 5124

1 you were offered food or you asked for food, or you're just answering in

2 the way you're answering to avoid the questions that are crucial to this

3 trial, in the hope that we will be forced to curtail your examination?


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what meaning it

6 has to you, but for me food was important --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, please stop, Mr. Kadriu.

8 Yes, Mr. Marcussen, what were you going to say?

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: The witness has answered and let's move on --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: No, the witness hasn't answered. Mr. Lukic's point

11 was perfectly justified.

12 Please confine your answers to the questions you're asked, Mr.

13 Kadriu. We've got lots of information already in your statement. You do

14 not need to go over it all again. You only need to deal with the

15 particular points that are raised by the examiner.

16 Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. In these villages, Gornja Sudimlja and Cecilia, there were quite a

19 number of KLA members and also quite a number of civilians. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. That's correct. I don't know how many soldiers there were, but

22 there were soldiers, yes.

23 Q. This area at the time was not controlled by Serb forces; it was

24 controlled, instead, by the KLA. Is that correct?

25 A. There were some parts of this area that were controlled by Serb

Page 5125

1 forces. I think that up to Samadrexha the Serb forces were there, but in

2 the other part they weren't present there, for example, in Studime and

3 Cecilia.

4 Q. Thank you. The KLA continued to put up strong resistance up to

5 April 1999, as you say in your statement, in the English version page 4,

6 paragraph 1. When that attack began that lasted all the way until end

7 April 1999 -- sorry, when did that attack begin? How long did the KLA

8 continue to put up resistance in that area?

9 A. The mountainous area of Shala e Bajgores was overpopulated with

10 Albanians. I don't know the exact number of days, how long the KLA

11 continued to put up resistance, but the Serb forces were advancing at all

12 times and from all directions, from Mitrovica, Podujeva and Srbica. They

13 had taken important positions in these villages.

14 Q. Can we agree that the resistance lasted at least from end March --

15 at least until end March 1999?

16 A. No. There was resistance from a guerilla point of view until the

17 end of May. There were certain army cells that put up resistance here and

18 there.

19 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the KLA informed the people that

20 they could no longer resist Serb forces and suggested to the civilian

21 population that they should leave the area they had until then controlled?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did the people take these instructions, did they obey these

24 instructions of the KLA and start to leave the area?

25 A. The army told the people: We can no longer protect you, so go in

Page 5126

1 the direction of town. But when we left, we were forced to do so because

2 of the artillery forces. Shells were falling in Sllakofc, and there was

3 no place where you could stay, and also the infantry forces were

4 advancing. Usually they would shell the area first with their artillery

5 forces, and then the infantry would enter. Therefore, we were left with

6 no other way out but to go in the direction of Vushtrri.

7 Q. At the moment when you left the area, you had no contact with Serb

8 forces whatsoever; instead, you were just obeying the instructions of the

9 KLA. Is that correct?

10 A. No. Nobody would have followed the KLA instructions if the Serb

11 shells didn't fall, but it is the shells that made every family, every

12 tractor, every person on foot to leave. If we were left in peace there,

13 we wouldn't have followed those instructions; there was no reason to do

14 so.

15 Q. Are you aware that the KLA issued such and similar instructions to

16 the inhabitants of other areas as well?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Thank you. When you arrived at Cecilia which is on page 14,

19 paragraph 5 of your statement, you saw just several soldiers of the KLA.

20 A day earlier it had been a stronghold of the KLA. So you were not in

21 Cecilia when the soldiers left it for Vucitrn. Is that correct?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: When the civilians left for

23 Vucitrn.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Kosova Liberation Army was

25 withdrawing towards a road that was leading to Dumnica. I learned later

Page 5127

1 that they withdrew to Dumnica while the population continued in the

2 direction of the town. These are two opposite roads, even if you see it

3 on the map, you will see that they go to opposite directions.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did all members of the KLA go to Dumnica, or is it the case that

6 some of them mingled with the civilian population after discarding their

7 uniforms and weapons?

8 A. I didn't see them discarding their uniforms. Nobody discarded

9 their uniforms. I know that they collected their wounded and that they

10 set off in the direction of Dumnica area. This was what happened. Nobody

11 took out their uniforms.

12 Q. Is it the case that the KLA members then moved together with a

13 convoy of civilians, still wearing their uniforms?

14 A. No. This did not happen. Don't forget, Mr. Lukic, that we,

15 civilians, continued our journey, but there was another point of the KLA

16 in Studime; Cecilia and Studime are two different villages.

17 Q. Is it your testimony today that all the units from Cecilia set to

18 breakout towards Dumnica?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Do you know how many of them got killed in this attempted

21 breakout?

22 A. I don't understand your question. What attempted breakout?

23 Q. In order to breakout from the encirclement of the Serb forces, we

24 can assume that at some point they had to come into contact with those

25 forces and that fighting ensued. Do you know if such fighting occurred

Page 5128

1 and how many soldiers got killed in this fighting?

2 A. I don't know about this. I don't know. I only know that on the

3 12th of May we buried a soldier who was the son of the brother of one of

4 my friends. We were there in the funeral --

5 Q. We can read that in your statement. It's Fadil's nephew, Beqiri,

6 a soldier of the KLA. What I want to know is: What happened to KLA

7 members from Gornja Sudimlja which you just mentioned?

8 A. These were also going towards Dumnica. We were going towards

9 Vushtrri, and they were going towards Dumnica. I learned later that all

10 of them went to Dumnica. The last soldiers that were there were two

11 soldiers who did not allow the convoy to take a turn because they knew

12 that the Serbian forces could see us if we took that turn. So they were

13 there to warn us not to take that turn. We could not protect ourselves.

14 That was a machine-gun up in the hill --

15 Q. We can read all that in your stadium. All I wanted to know was

16 about these members of the KLA. So it is your testimony that nobody -- no

17 members from the KLA from Gornja Sudimlja joined this convoy of civilians?

18 Are you sure or maybe you don't know whether somebody joined.

19 A. I am sure that they were not there, the KLA soldiers.

20 Q. So you knew all the soldiers of the KLA. So that you know for a

21 fact that none of them was in the convoy of civilians.

22 A. No soldier of the KLA was dare to join the convoy because they

23 would be executed. They knew that; that's why they went in a direction of

24 a place where they would be safer. Why would they join the convoy?

25 Everybody knew that we would have problems with the Serb forces. We

Page 5129

1 didn't know that they would kill us, but we knew that they would stop us

2 and ask information of us. So it was impossible for the KLA soldiers to

3 join the convoy; that would be absurd.

4 Q. You spoke after that that the police led the operation of checking

5 the identities of people in the convoy when you were gathered all in one

6 place, and you said that they listed men, women, and children. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Not in the convoy, Mr. Lukic.

9 Q. The next day when you --

10 A. Yes, that's correct, the next day.

11 Q. Then we saw that a certain number of people were separated from

12 your convoy, and they were taken to a prison in Smrekovnica. Is it the

13 case that the men who interrogated you in the prison in Smrekovnica wore

14 civilian clothes?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you questioned about your possible membership in the KLA?

17 A. No. When they took notes, we were in the convoy. So when they

18 took our personal details, that was it. They did not ask us whether you

19 were here or there. Janjic from the security forces, he knew me and he

20 asked something like: Where you were, why were you there? And he, as I

21 said, recognised me and asked other people to take my personal details.

22 Q. Thank you. I asked you about the prison in Smrekovnica. Were you

23 questioned?

24 A. Yes, some days later.

25 Q. The people who interrogated you, were they wearing civilian

Page 5130

1 clothes?

2 A. There were two people in uniforms there, while the others were in

3 civilian clothes and there was a secretary, a woman, who was taking notes,

4 but there were two in uniform.

5 Q. Did they interrogate you as regards your membership with the KLA

6 when you were being interrogated in Smrekovnica?

7 A. Yes. And can I explain something here because you're asking this

8 question? Would you be so kind as to listen to the explanation I have? I

9 was captured at Studime -- between the two Studimes --

10 Q. And you told them that you were in fact from the area of Cicavica;

11 that's all in your statement. You mentioned the incident with Ali

12 Mernica, and you said that you don't know whether the uniforms that the

13 armed men were wearing were monochrome or multi-coloured or camouflage --

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the reference in

15 the statement.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Did you see any patches or insignia on their uniform?

19 A. Yes. This was on the 3rd of May. In addition to the policemen in

20 camouflage uniforms, there were some other policemen wearing the older

21 uniforms and they had some marks here in different colours. Insignia, it

22 was red and blue and another colour -- I'm not sure about the colours.

23 Q. Thank you. When you talk about the murders of the people in the

24 convoy which took place according to your statement on the 2nd of May,

25 1999 - and later on we have the list of all those killed - from all that

Page 5131

1 we can conclude that you didn't see who killed those people and how.

2 A. The Serb police and army forces killed them, the one that -- the

3 ones that intervened. Who else could have killed them? We were

4 surrounded by Serbian forces, both army and police. They later on passed

5 there with their own convoy, and they had their own vehicles, armoured

6 vehicles.

7 Q. I was asking you whether you saw it.

8 A. I saw the police forces and the army forces that passed through

9 the convoy.

10 Q. Did you see the murders?

11 A. I did not see the killings. I saw one person being killed.

12 Q. We know that from your statement. But in that portion of the

13 statement, you also state that you don't know who it was because it was

14 dark and you couldn't see who it was or what type of uniform they wore.

15 A. Yes, that's correct. But the military and police forces were

16 there. Who else could have done that? It was also those forces that also

17 took us to the prison in Smrekovnica.

18 Q. We may conclude that all the murders you mentioned in your

19 statement as well as the names of the people who were killed, we may

20 conclude that you saw none of that. Is that correct?

21 A. I was in the Studime massacre. I heard the shots, as I told you,

22 because the convoy was divided in two parts. And the shots were heard all

23 the way to Vushtrri. I saw with my own eyes when a boy was killed in

24 front of us, but later when we did the investigation, we met the

25 witnesses, the eye-witnesses that also knew the killers. And I have files

Page 5132

1 and plenty of documents --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Mr. Lukic, law of diminishing returns is taking over. You're

4 asking questions to which the answer is obvious from the statement.

5 MR. LUKIC: I'm finishing, so ...

6 Q. [Interpretation] I wanted to ask you this: The photographs which

7 you took, according to your words, refer to the Ahmeti and Jashari family,

8 you took those photographs only after the autopsy was carried out on those

9 bodies. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. At the Milosevic trial at

12 page 1626 [sic] you say --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction 1676.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. "Many people decided to go to Vucitrn and Macedonia to get away

16 from the combat area for the war." Do you still stand by that statement?

17 A. We had to go somewhere because it was impossible to stay there

18 when the Serbian forces entered because they violated people, maltreated

19 people in front of their own families. So we had to go somewhere, either

20 to Albania or Macedonia. It was the Serbs that were telling us where to

21 go. It was the police forces that were telling us: Leave this place. Go

22 wherever you want, but don't stay here. And some of them ordered us to go

23 to Albania.

24 Q. Is what you stated in Milosevic correct or not?

25 A. Yes, that's what I said.

Page 5133

1 Q. Is it also correct that your family stayed in Vucitrn up until the

2 end of the war?

3 A. Yes, after they were ill-treated. Our family was ill-treated. We

4 were sent to that --

5 Q. I have no further questions for you, but I have no doubt that some

6 of my learned friends will.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. No further

8 questions.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 Mr. Marcussen, are the photographs part of the process?

11 MR. MARCUSSEN: No, Your Honour.


13 MR. MARCUSSEN: No. There are some things about the transcript

14 that we may need to clarify, but we can do it at a time convenient. I

15 don't want to interrupt the cross-examination.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Aleksic.

18 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kadriu. I have a few

21 questions for you. Do you know until what year did Albanian conscripts

22 leave for the JNA to do their military service?

23 A. Do you mean the conscripts?

24 Q. Yes, for the regular military service.

25 A. I think up to the 1990s, maybe 1987, 1989, 1988 -- up to 1989.

Page 5134

1 Q. Thank you. Today during the examination-in-chief that was

2 conducted by Mr. Lukic [sic] at page 48 -- or maybe it was the

3 cross-examination, you said that Pavkovic's men -- well, you commented on

4 their behaviour towards those conscripts; therefore, you meant the period

5 up to 1988 or 1989. Was that a metaphor? I don't want to put too leading

6 a question.

7 A. Well, Mr. Pavkovic was an officer at that time as well, and I

8 think he was high up in the military hierarchy. Sainovic as well. If

9 Milutinovic had signed Rambouillet, the situation would not be the one it

10 is today, but they didn't want to.

11 Q. Sir, it is rather late in the day, and I'd kindly ask you to

12 focus. You testified before this Tribunal in the Milosevic case on the

13 6th, 7th, and 8th of March, 2000 [as interpreted]. Is that correct?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 2002.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the dates, I just

16 remember the year, 2002, not the date.

17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Very well. I'll try to refresh your recollection as regards part

19 of your testimony. This is the transcript for the 8th of March, 2002.

20 A. Thank you for reminding me.

21 Q. You were cross-examined then by Mr. Milosevic as well as the

22 amicus curiae. At page 1776 and 1777, lines 1 through 6, you said the

23 following -- Mr. Milosevic asked you: "Do you know how many terrorist

24 attacks were carried out in Kosovo-Metohija since 1991 up until June

25 1999?" You answered: "I don't. I don't know of such attacks because the

Page 5135

1 state apparatus was in your hands and you used it for certain purposes."

2 A. There was a hierarchy, there was a pyramid.

3 Q. Sir, we have no time. Yes or no, did you say that?

4 A. Yes, Milosevic was the main one, and then Sainovic, Milutinovic,

5 and the others. And I think Sainovic had a very important role. I am

6 trying to answer --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, Mr. Kadriu, what you're saying is no

8 answer to the question. Please listen to the question and answer the

9 questions you're being asked. You're not being asked your opinion about

10 the guilt of the accused here; that's a matter for us to deal with.

11 You're being asked a specific knowledge about KLA attacks. That's all.

12 Now, confine your answers to that.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Your Honour, the counsel is

14 asking questions and making comments. If he is making comments, then let

15 him make comments.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: He made no comment. Tell me what comment he made.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is not allowing me to explain and

18 to give my answers.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: You are not being asked to explain; you're being

20 asked specific questions which you must listen to and you must answer.

21 You're doing no good to this process by behaving the way you've been

22 behaving in answer to questions in cross-examination.

23 Now, Mr. Aleksic, if you feel the need to ask these questions

24 about: Did you say that, then please ask them. But why should we doubt

25 that he said it if it's in the transcript and why do you need to ask him?

Page 5136

1 Then you end up with an explanation that the witness wants to give because

2 he thinks he's being expected to say more.

3 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

4 reasons for asking such questions and for quoting portions of the

5 transcript is because our OTP learned friends have not sought to tender

6 the Milosevic transcript as part of their exhibits --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, would you like to tender it then? Well,

8 you'll get your chance in due course. You don't need to ask the witness.

9 You can tender it as part of your case in due course, but if there's a

10 question that you need to put to this witness which otherwise you can't

11 deal with in some other way, please ask him.

12 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will move

13 on to that topic which have nothing to do with the statement and the

14 transcript.

15 Q. Mr. Kadriu, after the events in 1999, were you politically active

16 in 2000 and 2001?

17 A. Yes, for a year I was active.

18 Q. In 2000 and 2001, were you a member to any political party?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us which party?

21 A. I was a member of the Alliance for the Future of Kosova.

22 Q. The Alliance for the Future of Kosovo. During the time of your

23 membership with that organisation, were you a member of the municipal

24 board, or rather, that party's leader for the municipality of Vucitrn and

25 you were their candidate at municipal elections held on the 28th of

Page 5137

1 October, 2000?

2 A. In the beginning, I was not chairman, somebody else was; later on,

3 I became chairman and I was a candidate in the elections, yes. How is

4 this related, though? I have come here to testify about war crimes, not

5 about things after the war.

6 Q. Would you tell me who is the president of that party, Mr. Kadriu.

7 A. I don't know because now I'm not a member. It's been three years.

8 I'm not a member anymore.

9 Q. I apologise, Mr. Kadriu, I will paraphrase or reformulate the

10 question. Who was the president back in 2000 and 2001? What is the name

11 of that person?

12 A. Your Honour, do I have to answer these questions about after --

13 the period after the war?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what is your objection to answering them?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because he's tendentious in his

16 question. This is a provoking question.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Why is it provoking to be asked the name of a

18 chairman of a party?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a provocation because I have

20 come here to testify about the years of the war and not after the war.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: You can be asked any question that is relevant to

22 the issues that we have to decide, and one of the issues we may have to

23 decide relates to how trustworthy a person's evidence may be. And if that

24 person has particular interests, then that might affect our assessment of

25 the trustworthiness of his evidence. And therefore, counsel are entitled

Page 5138

1 to explore other matters relating to the interest of witnesses in the

2 affairs of Kosovo. Now, I don't know what is going to be said in due

3 course at the end of this case based upon the answer to the question

4 you're now being asked. But unless there is some reason related to the

5 security of the person involved or there is some other issue affecting

6 your safety or other members of the public, then you're bound to answer

7 the question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think this is in the

9 interest of the case because my personal issue after the war, it's a

10 different thing --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kadriu, that's not for you to determine. Would

12 you please answer the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So what was the question again? If

14 the -- Your Honours, you think this is important, I will give the answer.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you trying to tell me now that you don't

16 remember this question?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't remember the question.

18 Could the question be --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: The question that you feel so strongly about

20 refusing to answer, you don't actually remember the question now?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the exact wording

22 of the question. If possible, could the counsel repeat the question.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic, ask it again.

24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, by all

25 means.

Page 5139

1 Q. Mr. Kadriu, you said that in 2000 and 2001 you were a member of

2 the Alliance for the Future of Kosovo and, for a while, their municipal

3 board president. Can you tell the Court what was the then-president of

4 the Alliance for the Future of Kosovo.

5 A. In the beginning when the party was formed, the president of the

6 party was Ramush Haradinaj.

7 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

8 more questions.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kadriu, my name is Djuro Cepic, one of the

13 counsel for Mr. Lazarevic. I have a few questions for you. First of all,

14 let us address the convoy and the events of the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1999.

15 At page 78, lines 11 and 12, you said that you saw the MUP and VJ forces

16 going through the convoy, and you gave a very detailed description and

17 statement back in 2000. In that statement, starting from page 16, you

18 describe in detail all the events concerning the convoy and your detention

19 at the Smrekovnica prison. Not in a single place in the statement did you

20 mention the Army of Yugoslavia as regards the convoy. Where did that come

21 from today? Did anyone suggest to you what you should say here today?

22 A. I'm not sure whether I mentioned it or not in my statement;

23 however, nobody suggested anything to me. I'm certain that artillery and

24 motorised forces and other combined forces showed clearly that they were

25 military forces. The police did not have tanks or anti-aircraft

Page 5140

1 artillery.

2 Q. Yes, sir, but you didn't mention that anywhere in your statement,

3 and yet you accepted the statement as given by you and you signed it. The

4 events took place in 1999; the statement was given in 2000. Please let me

5 finish. The statement was given in 2000, and after that, you testified in

6 the Milosevic case. And the details you've described today were never

7 mentioned up until this day. This is what the question is all about, Mr.

8 Kadriu.

9 A. In my statement I always said "Serb forces." I didn't want to

10 make any distinction between them because they were combined and they went

11 everywhere together; that's why I used the term "Serb forces."

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Why do you say, Mr. Cepic, that what is in page 16

13 doesn't refer to the army?

14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, page 16, paragraph 1,

15 reads that certain Serb forces approach. In paragraph 2 on the same

16 page --

17 Q. Please allow me, Mr. Kadriu.

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I continue?

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.

20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] In paragraph 2 he says he couldn't

21 distinguish or clearly make out the Serb uniforms of the people who were

22 at the head of the convoy. And then further on, "as I've explained, it

23 was quite dark and I couldn't make out the uniform they wore." He

24 continues then with his explanation of being brought to the hangar. And

25 the next day, page 17, paragraph 1, he says the entire area was surrounded

Page 5141

1 by the Serbs in blue camouflage uniforms. There is never any mention of

2 the army.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic could just as easily say that in the

4 earlier paragraphs of the page there is no reference to the police.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I used is "Serb forces," this

6 term.

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I agree, but with your leave --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on -- hold on.

9 Mr. Marcussen.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I do believe there is mention of military

11 vehicles, though.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is that?

13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Page 16 in the second paragraph. "We could hear

14 the sound of tractors and heavy military vehicles."

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. You have the witness's answer that his

16 reference was to Serb forces at the time. Now, Mr. Cepic.

17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Can we conclude, therefore, that that night you couldn't see or

19 you couldn't make out the uniforms as you stated in your statement. Isn't

20 that correct? This is the 2nd of May I'm talking about.

21 A. That's correct. It wasn't easy to tell between uniforms because

22 it was dark.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. However, when we got to the town, the Serb forces were moving on

25 with the armoured vehicles. I thank you as well.

Page 5142

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kadriu, but I didn't ask you about that. I was

2 asking about something else. It seems you have provided clear answers as

3 regards that, but let us now go back to Prekaz and the events of the 3rd

4 of March, 1999, and the arrest -- sorry, 1998, and the arrest of Adem

5 Jashari. Today on several occasions we heard from you that artillery was

6 used and Adem Jashari's house was targeted by that artillery for three

7 days. Not only is it illogical, Mr. Kadriu, but I also wanted to put to

8 you that the army and artillery were not involved in those incidents at

9 all as regards the arrest of Adem Jashari. What would be your comment to

10 that? What I'm stating here is an assertion.

11 A. This is what you say, sir, but I'll tell you something. My

12 village from the Jashari village --

13 Q. Sir, just a second. This is what was said by OTP witnesses; these

14 are not my words. Are you from the village of Prekaz? Are you from

15 Prekaz, yes or no?

16 A. No, I'm not from Prekaze village, and I've stated that in my

17 statement.

18 Q. Were you in Prekaz at that day?

19 A. No, nobody could go into Prekaze village at that day. Excuse me,

20 I want to explain here --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, a moment. You've asked a question, and

22 then you've prevented the witness from answering that question and that

23 needs to be rectified.

24 Mr. Marcussen, what --

25 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, that was a point and I think we have been

Page 5143

1 through that earlier today, the same point.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Kadriu, you have been asked to comment and

3 you shall be allowed to comment on the assertion that's been made based on

4 what other witnesses have said that there was no heavy weaponry involved

5 in the attack on Jashari's house. What is your comment on that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can assert to you that there were

7 heavy weaponry there. You could hear the rumble of artillery vehicles

8 from in my house. You could hear the sound of anti-aircraft weapons for

9 three days in a row, and I am fully responsible for these things that I'm

10 saying.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Cepic, we're going to have to continue

12 this tomorrow.

13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you able to estimate how long in total further

15 Defence cross-examination will take tomorrow?

16 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, if you allow me, I have questions just

17 for 15 minutes, roughly 15 minutes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe I will be

20 done by the end of the first session. In the meantime we contacted the

21 OTP, and I believe we will finish the second -- the other witness as well;

22 therefore, we'll have nothing left. We should be able to complete the

23 following witness tomorrow.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Mr. Kadriu, your evidence will have to continue tomorrow. We

Page 5144

1 can't continue further today because of another case occupying this court

2 in the afternoon. So you have to be back here to continue your evidence

3 at 9.00 tomorrow morning. Meanwhile, it's vital that you have no

4 discussion about your evidence with anyone. Now, that means discussion

5 either about the evidence you've given or the evidence you may yet give

6 tomorrow. You can talk about anything you want to anyone else that you

7 wish, but you must not with anyone discuss any part of your evidence. So

8 please leave the courtroom now, and we'll see you again at 9.00 tomorrow

9 morning.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Court will now adjourn.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

15 October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.