Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5409

1 Monday, 30 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Hannis. Your next witness.

6 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honour. Thank you. Our next

7 witness is Andras Riedlmayer. He's an expert witness, Your Honour, who

8 will testify about cultural destruction and damage to sites in Kosovo.

9 His testimony pertains in particular to paragraphs 77(d), as in David, and

10 to particular paragraphs or subparagraphs in paragraph 72. However,

11 paragraph 77(d) names those municipalities that we'll be talking about.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: You say paragraph 72 is also engaged, do you?

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Paragraph 77(d) makes reference to

15 a number of mosques that were damaged in municipalities, and it then

16 says "as described in paragraph 72." I can tell you we'll be talking

17 about paragraph 72(a), 72(a)(i), (b), (c), (d), (f), (h)(i), (i), (k), and

18 (m).

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Noting that this evidence relates to Count 5 caused

20 me to have another look at the phraseology of Count 5, and there is one

21 peculiarity you might wouldn't to give some attention to. Paragraph 76,

22 which is the principal paragraph re-alleging and incorporating earlier

23 paragraphs makes no reference to paragraph 72, oddly. Now, it doesn't

24 matter for this evidence because you specifically refer to paragraph 72

25 and subparagraph (d), and it doesn't matter for sexual assault either

Page 5410

1 because you refer to it there, but it may have relevance to (a).

2 MR. HANNIS: Well, under the same reasoning as to (b) then, too.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well (b) is slightly different because paragraph 75

4 is already incorporated in 76 --

5 MR. HANNIS: Yes, yes.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: -- and it may be that, for the avoidance of doubt,

7 you should be looking at (b) as well to ...

8 MR. HANNIS: I see your point, Your Honour. I don't have an

9 answer --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Where it really bites is in relation to forcible

11 transfer and deportation. It may be technical, of course, but you should,

12 at least at some stage - in fact, sooner rather than later - give

13 consideration to this.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you for bringing that our attention, Your

15 Honour. We will.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Riedlmayer.

17 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

19 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed

20 before you.

21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

22 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

24 Mr. Hannis.

25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5411


2 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

3 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you state your name for the record and

4 please spell your last name for us.

5 A. My name is Andras Janos Riedlmayer; R-i-e-d-l-m-a-y-e-r.

6 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, I'd like to ask you briefly about your educational

7 background. I understand that you have a bachelor's degree in history

8 from the University of Chicago.

9 A. I do.

10 Q. And after that you obtained two master's degrees. Can you tell us

11 what those are in, when you obtained them, and from where.

12 A. I have a master's in Near Eastern Studies from Princeton

13 University, which I obtained in 1972, and I have a master's degree in

14 Library and Information Science, obtained from Simmons College, in 1988.

15 Q. And currently, what is your occupation or position?

16 A. For the -- for the past 21 years, I've directed the Documentation

17 Centre for Islamic Art and Architect of the Aga Khan Program at Harvard

18 University's Fine Arts Library.

19 Q. And I understand from your prior testimony that you also describe

20 yourself as an art documentation specialist.

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Now, your CV - which, Your Honours, is Exhibit P1790 - contains

23 further details about your educational background and your experience

24 related to this area; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5412

1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we would tender his CV at this time.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 Mr. Riedlmayer, could you repeat the name of the programme at

4 Harvard University Library.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes. It is called the Aga Khan Program for Islamic

6 Art and Architect.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


9 Q. Now, since the time your CV was written, I understand there is one

10 additional matter that we might want to draw attention to. Your CV noted

11 that you were a member of the board of directors of the Turkish Studies

12 Association. I understand since that time you've been elected an officer

13 in that organisation; correct?

14 A. Yes. Last November I was elected to a term as president of the

15 Turkish Studies Association.

16 Q. Thank you. Very briefly, can you tell us a little bit about what

17 that group is and what it does.

18 A. It's the Premier International Scholarly Association in Ottoman

19 and Turkish Studies.

20 Q. Now, could you tell the Court, what does an art documentation

21 specialist do?

22 A. Our speciality is precisely what it says: Documenting art and

23 architect as an aid to scholarship in the field; assembling written and

24 photographic evidence of architecture its change over time.

25 Q. I'm reminded that, since we both speak English, I should pause

Page 5413

1 when you finish an answer and you should pause when I finish a question,

2 just so the interpreters can keep up with us.

3 A. Understood.

4 Q. Before you worked on the Kosovo project that's the subject of your

5 report in this case, had you done any similar kind of work in the past?

6 A. I had been studying the Balkans for more than three decades on an

7 academic level, and throughout the 1990s, I had been looking at the

8 destruction of cultural property in the wars in Croatia and Bosnia. I had

9 written about it and had given talks at international conferences and

10 before a US congressional commission on the subject.

11 Q. Can you give us a little more detail about what you did in

12 connection with that and what parts of the Balkans you were engaged in.

13 A. Principally Bosnia. I was moved to study the fate of art,

14 architecture, and other cultural heritage in Bosnia by the news of the

15 destruction of the National Library in Sarajevo, the destruction of the

16 Mostar bridge, and other tragedies that affected both people and culture

17 during the Balkan wars. I'm not sure what you would --

18 Q. That's sufficient. Have you previously testified as an expert

19 before this Tribunal?

20 A. Yes, I have, three times.

21 Q. Can you tell us which cases those were in?

22 A. I testified twice in the case Prosecutor versus Slobodan

23 Milosevic, once about Kosovo and once about Bosnia; and also in the case,

24 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

25 Q. And, sir, do you speak and read any languages that were helpful to

Page 5414

1 your work in the Balkans?

2 A. Yes. I can read and, to a certain degree, speak

3 Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian. I can read Albanian with a dictionary. I'm

4 fluent in Turkish. And I know the major western European languages.

5 Q. Now, how was it that you came to be involved in this project that

6 led to your survey regarding Kosovo?

7 A. Due to my work in the 1990s, looking at the fate of cultural

8 property in the Balkans, when the war broke out in Kosovo in 1998/1999, I

9 was paying special attention as to whether there were similar reports of

10 destruction of cultural property. I did see such reports, both in

11 interviews with refugees and in the various allegations made by the

12 Yugoslav government and others concerning destruction of cultural

13 property.

14 When the conflict in Kosovo ended in early June of 1999, I

15 contacted UNESCO, given that the UN was about to take on the

16 administration of Kosovo and I assumed that UNESCO would take on the

17 culture centre, and asked if they had any special plans to survey what the

18 state of cultural heritage was in the aftermath of the war. I was

19 informed by my contact at UNESCO headquarters in Paris that at the time

20 they had no plans to do this; all their efforts would be concentrated on

21 the education sector.

22 At that point, I contacted various colleagues, found an architect

23 colleague whom I had known from previous professional work by the name of

24 Andrew Herscher, and the two of us applied for a grant to do field-work in

25 Kosovo.

Page 5415

1 Do you wish to have more detail than that?

2 Q. Well, let me ask you this, and I think you've partly answered

3 already: How did you come to the idea of a cultural heritage project for

4 Kosovo?

5 A. All right. I felt that in the aftermath of war it was very

6 important to record what had happened to cultural property for a variety

7 of reasons. One would be to establish a base-line and priorities for

8 conservation and reconstruction; one would be to assist the Tribunal, if

9 possible, in case there is evidence to be gathered of war crimes; and one

10 was simply to contribute to the historical record.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one question, Mr. Riedlmayer. By the time we

12 are talking of now, which is late 1999, I think, had you already been

13 working for the Office of the Prosecutor here in relation to Bosnia?

14 THE WITNESS: I had not.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Can you define for us what you mean by the term "cultural

17 heritage."

18 A. Cultural heritage, in the broadest sense, is the cultural and

19 artistic production of peoples, whether it is the written word, works of

20 art, or the built environment. The cultural link has to do, of course,

21 both with the creativity involved and with a connection with the cultural

22 and spiritual life of people.

23 Q. Now, you mention you had contacted an individual you knew by the

24 name of Andrew Herscher to help you work on this. Who was he, or who is

25 he?

Page 5416

1 A. Andrew Herscher, H-e-r-s-c-h-e-r, at the time was a trained

2 architect and was in the last stages of finishing his doctorate at Harvard

3 University in architectural history, theory and criticism. He had been

4 involved in documenting cultural destruction in the Balkans before in

5 Mostar, in Bosnia, after the end of the Bosnian war. He had a reading

6 knowledge of Serbo-Croatian and expressed an interest in the project.

7 Q. And you mentioned earlier that the two of you applied for a

8 grant. I take it you didn't have the means to fund this project on your

9 own.

10 A. We did not. We found a foundation, the Packard Humanities

11 Institute, that was willing to give a subvention to cover the expenses of

12 our field-work, and Harvard University was willing to act as the

13 institutional sponsor. We worked through the Centre for Middle Eastern

14 Studies.

15 Q. Can you tell us briefly, what is the Packard Humanities Institute?

16 A. The Packard Humanities Institute is a registered charity in the

17 United States. It is involved in various cultural preservation projects

18 in Europe and elsewhere.

19 Q. Now, at the outset, what were the goals that you and Mr. Herscher

20 had in mind for this project?

21 A. Our goals, quite simply, were to go to Kosovo and look at every

22 published and otherwise available allegation concerning attacks on

23 cultural and religious heritage and to document it. It sounds like an

24 ambitious project, but Kosovo, you should keep in mind, is a relatively

25 small and compact territory. In order to do this efficiently, we spent

Page 5417

1 the summer, meaning the three months before we launched our expedition in

2 October of 1999, compiling documentation available on heritage in Kosovo

3 so we would know what we were looking for once we got there.

4 Q. And what sources did you go to to gather this documentation?

5 A. In terms of published documentation, we are very fortunate that

6 Harvard University has a very rich library and that Kosovo, being part of

7 the former Yugoslavia, had all the cultural institutions of the federal

8 structure of Yugoslavia. So they had an institute for the protection of

9 monuments, they had a provincial museum, they had various other bodies,

10 all of which issued annuals and other publications, documenting cultural

11 heritage in Kosovo. And Harvard had most of these publications. We

12 systematically compiled all the information available on various sites.

13 Q. Okay. Now, I see the title of your report or your survey is "The

14 Destruction of Historical Culture in Kosovo 1998/1999." Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, "The Destruction of Cultural Heritage," yes.

16 Q. So is "historical culture" interchangeable with the term "cultural

17 heritage"?

18 A. I don't think the term "historical" appears in the title.

19 Q. Okay. Would that cultural heritage include both religious and

20 non-religious sites?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you began your project, were you and/or Mr. Herscher aware of

23 the different primary religious groups or communities in Kosovo?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what were those, to your knowledge?

Page 5418

1 A. The three major traditional -- religious traditions in Kosovo were

2 Islam, which was the religion of most of the Albanian majority; Roman

3 Catholicism, which was the religion of the minority among the Albanians,

4 as well as some other smaller minorities; and Serbian Orthodoxy, which was

5 the traditional religion of the Serb inhabitants of Kosovo.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Excuse me for interrupting. Before we get into

7 detail on this, I was trying to understand your reference there,

8 Mr. Hannis, to "historical culture". Now, I don't see that in the title

9 of the report, nor in the copyright tag to the report.

10 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. I think that's just an error in my

11 notes. It is -- "Cultural Heritage" is the title in his report.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Just in case we go off on a tangent

13 later when we're trying to re-assemble this material. Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: No. My apologies to the Court and the witness; I

15 misspoke.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Riedlmayer, you mentioned the three religious

17 communities. Can you tell us with regard to each, what type of religious

18 buildings did you associate with each group?

19 A. Yes. In the case of Islam, the main houses of worships were, of

20 course, mosques. These came in two varieties. One, locally called

21 Xhamija, was the congregational mosque. This is the mosque where Friday

22 prayers are performed once a week. There were also smaller mosques called

23 locally Masjid. These often didn't have a minaret, a minaret being like a

24 steeple where the call to prayer is sounded. And these were used for

25 daily prayers but not usually for Friday prayers. In addition, many

Page 5419

1 Kosovar Muslims also followed the Sufi mystical tradition, and there were

2 Teqe, or Tekija, which were Dervish lodges where the Sufi ceremonies would

3 be performed. In addition, there would be the tombs of venerated

4 religious scholars and other holy men and women, and other subsidiary

5 buildings, such as religious schools for Koran readers, and so forth.

6 Also, all three religions revolve around scripture and its study, so all

7 three religions maintained religious libraries and records/archives.

8 In terms of the Serbian Orthodox church, they had, of course,

9 churches. They also had monasteries. They also had their theological

10 school in Prizren and, of course, the normal panoply of parish records and

11 religious libraries.

12 The Catholic church, which was institutionally the smallest in

13 Kosovo, similarly had churches and convents and religious schools.

14 Q. Now, you described earlier, I think, the preliminary work that you

15 and Mr. Herscher did to try and select sites. One approach that you might

16 have taken was to try and investigate every known site from every source

17 in Kosovo. Did you try to do that?

18 A. We, of course, tried to compile at the very beginning the maximal

19 list of items that could be investigated and the maximum amount of

20 information just so that we would not encounter surprises; however, our

21 field-work was focused primarily on those sites in which there had been

22 allegations of damage.

23 Q. And do you recall now a rough number of sites about which you had

24 discovered allegations of damage?

25 A. Well, I can tell you that we visited in person approximately 144

Page 5420

1 sites in the course of three visits to Kosovo, each lasting about three

2 weeks. In addition, we compiled information from sources we judged to be

3 reliable, mostly in terms of photographic documentation. And we have a

4 database in excess of 500 records, which I believe has been submitted to

5 the Court.

6 Q. Thank you. So after you and Herscher had gathered this

7 information, you made your first site visit.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did that take place?

10 A. We went to Kosovo at the beginning of October of 1999, so that's

11 roughly four months after the end of the conflict, and spent about three

12 weeks there through the end of the month. Subsequently, we went for

13 follow-up visits in October of 2000 and March of 2001.

14 Q. Before actually arriving in Kosovo that first time in October

15 1999, did you have any contact with this Tribunal or the Office of the

16 Prosecutor?

17 A. Yes. When we first contacted the Office of the Prosecutor to ask

18 whether the data we collected would be of any interest to them, they

19 expressed an interest and urged us to stop at The Hague on our way to

20 Kosovo.

21 Q. Did you do so?

22 A. We did.

23 Q. And did you advise them of what you and Mr. Herscher had in mind?

24 A. We did, and in turn they advised us, in general terms, as to what

25 sort of thing would make for useful information for them in terms of how

Page 5421

1 to go about documenting. So, for example, they advised us that it would

2 be useful if we could look out for recent pre-war pictures in order to

3 contrast with any post-war documentation. They advised us to do our best

4 to be neutral and impartial in our observations. They advised us that,

5 while they would happily look at our documentation, we would not be acting

6 as agents of the Tribunal; and that the Tribunal office in Pristina could

7 advise us on security conditions but otherwise could not offer us

8 practical assistance.

9 We did all that, and I believe the documentation we compiled

10 complied with these general guidelines. At no time did they suggest what

11 our conclusions should be or what sites to pick or how to proceed about

12 our documenting in technical terms.

13 Q. Did they have any input on the final report that you wrote?

14 A. They did not.

15 Q. Now, you've told us how you started your work by compiling the

16 list of sites based on published literature or on cultural heritage in

17 Kosovo and a list of those about which there were reports or allegations

18 of damage. With that information in hand, how did you and Herscher go

19 about doing things? What was your methodology when you arrived in Kosovo?

20 A. I can give you a brief outline of how we would go about

21 documenting a site. Each day we would draw up a list of sites that we

22 could visit based largely on simple geography, obviously. Communications

23 in the aftermath of war were very difficult. The roads were in a terrible

24 state. There were people still coming back, refugees clogging the roads,

25 so getting about was a real problem.

Page 5422

1 When we got to a site, the first thing we would try to do is

2 identify the site. We would not rely on just passers-by, but we would,

3 first of all, compare the site to whatever pre-war documentation we had.

4 In the case of a building that was completely torn down, the foundations

5 would often still be visible and we would very often have some kind of a

6 ground plan that would be helpful. If there were pre-war photographs, you

7 could often see other buildings and structures in the background with

8 which to compare it.

9 We had spent the three months before the war not only compiling

10 documentation but also trying to establish contacts within Kosovo, to get

11 in touch with heritage professionals there who could provide us with

12 guidance as to where these sites were. On a number of occasions, we

13 managed to get people to accompany us to the sites which saved us

14 considerable time.

15 Once we identified a site, we would then take photographs from

16 various angles, and then Mr. Herscher and I would try to agree on a

17 qualification and description of the damage. And then we would move on to

18 the next site. If, in the process of documenting, we encountered people

19 who claimed to have seen what happened, our instructions from the Office

20 of the Prosecutor were that we were not authorised to depose people; we're

21 not lawyers. But we were to collect basic information, what sort of thing

22 they claim to have known, particularly the time, if they knew it, of when

23 the destruction occurred; and not specifically what person did it but, you

24 know, if they could remember what uniform people might have been wearing.

25 And then we would take their contact information, which we included in our

Page 5423

1 report, and it was up to the Tribunal to contact them. Then we would move

2 on to the next site.

3 We generally were out from before 6.00 in the morning often until

4 late at night, and then once back in Pristina, we would compile the day's

5 documentation and try to organise it. And once we got back to Cambridge,

6 then we started putting it, together with our photographs, into a

7 database.

8 Q. Now --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one --

10 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: -- again, it's a minor matter, but you started that

12 by telling us you spent three months, you said, "before the war not only

13 compiling documentation but also trying to establish contacts within

14 Kosovo, to get in touch with heritage professionals." Do you mean three

15 months after the war?

16 THE WITNESS: Three months after the war. I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Thank you.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

19 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I have just a little query. Did you meet any of

20 the Sufis?

21 THE WITNESS: Oh, certainly. Certainly, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE CHOWHAN: And were they available?

23 THE WITNESS: Some were, yes.

24 JUDGE CHOWHAN: And did they follow the Turkish Rumi?

25 THE WITNESS: No. There are a variety of mystical orders active

Page 5424

1 in Kosovo. The followers of Rumi, the Bektashi, are not among them.

2 There are orders, such as the Rufai, the Sa'adi, and others. In Western

3 Kosovo, there is also the Bektashi tradition.

4 JUDGE CHOWHAN: No Christian Sufi?

5 THE WITNESS: Christian religious orders are associated with the

6 Orthodox and Catholic church respectively.

7 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you very much.

8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Riedlmayer, as part of your project, when you discovered

10 what appeared to be damage or destruction, I understand that you and

11 Herscher came up with a system to rate it or assess that damage. How did

12 you decide on what standard you were going to use?

13 A. We had a scale of destruction which we initially tried to model on

14 the scale used by the UNHCR, the United Nations Office of the High

15 Commissioner for Refugees. The problem with that was the UNHCR scale was

16 very specifically oriented towards emergency reconstruction of shelter and

17 so the categories tended to be based on criteria, such as the state of the

18 infrastructure, plumbing, electricity, the number of bedrooms; in other

19 words, criteria that were not easily applicable to historical buildings or

20 houses of worship.

21 Then we looked at other criteria that were used, for example, in

22 the assessment of buildings in Dubrovnik and Dalmatia following an

23 earthquake back in the 1960s and 1970s, and we came up with a list of

24 criteria that pretty much matched the UNHCR scale but was reduced to

25 criteria that could be established through strict visual observation

Page 5425

1 without resorting to technical tests. I can go through the criteria, if

2 you wish.

3 Q. I will. Let me ask you a couple of questions first. So I take it

4 there was not an existing standard for assessing damage to cultural,

5 historical buildings?

6 A. Yes. There were multiple scales in use, none of them particularly

7 applicable to this post-war situation.

8 Q. Okay. So can you explain to the Court what standards you and

9 Herscher came up with, and how you distinguished one from another.

10 A. Yes. Our scale began with, of course, "undamaged," which is

11 self-explanatory, a building that either shows no signs of damage and also

12 shows no signs of recent reconstruction.

13 Then, the first damage category was "lightly damaged," and we were

14 very conservative in its application. In other words, this could be any

15 building that had not sustained damage that seriously structurally

16 compromised it. This could be anything as light as vandalism and small

17 fire set inside, you know, holes in the wall from projectile impacts, to

18 even the demolition of a church steeple or a mosque minaret, as long as it

19 did not completely collapse the roof or cause a structural element to

20 fail.

21 The second category in the damage category is "heavily damaged."

22 Heavily damaged would be one or more principal elements of the building

23 had been impaired. So, for example, one of the perimeter walls had

24 collapsed, or typically a building would be burned out or the roof

25 collapsed. And very often there would be a combination of damage to

Page 5426

1 various parts of the building.

2 The third category would be "almost destroyed." Almost destroyed

3 means the building was essentially a total loss, but there were still some

4 identifiable parts of the structure standing above ground.

5 And "completely destroyed" would be a building of which no

6 identifiable parts were left standing, a pile of rubble or sometimes a

7 completely cleared site.

8 Q. In those cases of a completely cleared site, how were you able to

9 determine that there had been some building there before?

10 A. Well, one way to do it is, seeing as this was only four months

11 after the war, there hadn't been time for extensive growth of vegetation

12 or weathering, and so you could very often still trace foundations. The

13 other way to do it is to take a very careful look at before-photographs

14 and try to match up buildings in the background.

15 Q. Now, I think you told us before that you made three trips in all

16 to Kosovo.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long did it take you and Herscher to complete this survey?

19 A. We took approximately two years to finish the survey, or three

20 trips. As I mentioned before, they took approximately three weeks each.

21 Q. And you, I think, told us earlier that you and Herscher personally

22 visited 144 sites.

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. How many of those did you see jointly?

25 A. Almost all of them.

Page 5427

1 Q. And how did you go about making the assessment? If there were

2 just two of you working together, did you have to agree before you would

3 assign a value?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you have any examples where you and he disagreed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us about one and how you resolved it.

8 A. Certainly. On our first site visits in the town of Vucitrn, north

9 of Pristina, we saw a series of mosques whose minarets had been shot off.

10 They had been severed near the bottom and had collapsed onto the roof of

11 the adjacent mosque. And the falling masonry had crashed through the roof

12 and made a big hole in the roof and obviously caused damage to the roof

13 and the interior. And I had been inclined to say that this constituted

14 "heavily damaged" and Mr. Herscher, who was intent on keeping the

15 categories very conservative, pointed out that, even though the minaret

16 was gone and the roof was partially smashed in, the mosque was still

17 essentially structural intact. The perimeter walls were standing and

18 two-thirds of the roof was still okay. And so we discussed it and he

19 prevailed and we called those "lightly damaged."

20 Q. And of the two of you, he's the architect.

21 A. So I deferred.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I think you told us before you started you

23 had a list of over 500 sites.

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And if we subtract 144 from 500-and-some, there is more than 350

Page 5428

1 that you and Herscher were not able to visit personally.

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. What about those sites that are in the survey? What were your

4 sources for information about them?

5 A. We were very fortunate that we were able to obtain a lot of

6 photographic documentation from several sources that we judged to be

7 reliable. The largest number of photos and other information that we got

8 came from the International Management Group. This is an

9 inter-governmental agency, that on a contract from the Council of Europe,

10 was doing a municipality-by-municipality survey of infrastructure in

11 Kosovo. The main goals of the survey were to assess the state of public

12 facilities, such as clinics and schools and other public facilities; but,

13 to our relief, they also included a category of religious and heritage

14 sites.

15 They compiled a database, which I submitted along with our report,

16 which contained a great deal of photographic and other information on

17 these sites. The assessments they made were not always consistent or

18 reliable, from our standpoint, given that their different teams in

19 different municipalities didn't seem to have consistent standards as to

20 what they would call, say, 20 per cent damaged. In some cases, that would

21 mean a building that had had its windows smashed in; in other places, it

22 would have been a building that would have been completely burned out. So

23 what we relied on primarily was their photographs, to which we applied our

24 own criteria.

25 The second largest group of photographs we obtained came from the

Page 5429

1 three religious communities. The Islamic community of Kosovo, which is

2 the coordinating body for the Muslim congregations within the province,

3 had compiled in the immediate aftermath of the war a very large archive of

4 several hundred photographs, showing mosques that had been damaged in the

5 war. Also, from them, we acquired a set of a journal they had published

6 in the 1990s called Dituria Islame, which had many pre-destruction photos

7 of mosques published, and since they were published, they were easily

8 dateable.

9 Q. Could you spell the name of that publication.

10 A. I'm sorry. That's D-i-t-u-r-i-a, new word, I-s-l-a-m-e, something

11 like "Islamic Knowledge."

12 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt. Please continue.

13 A. It's a religious monthly.

14 The Serbian Orthodox church was also very active immediately after

15 the war documenting the fate of its religious structures, many of which

16 were damaged particularly in the summer after the war. And they published

17 a work called "Crucified Kosovo" and also maintained a number of web

18 sites. We were also in contact -- direct contact with clergymen from the

19 Serbian Orthodox church, such as Father Savo Janjic, who was known as the

20 cyber monk because he -- at a time when you couldn't call Kosovo by

21 telephone, you could e-mail him. So we exchanged photographs by e-mail.

22 The Roman Catholic church, which was the smallest of Kosovo's

23 three religious communities and whose buildings had suffered the least

24 damage, did not have any publications, but we were able to interview

25 several parish priests who informed us about the state of religious

Page 5430

1 monuments in their particular corners of Kosovo. The Catholic church also

2 had a number of publications from before the war which provided pre-war

3 photos of these surges.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Riedlmayer, the IMG that you referred to,

5 International Management Group, were they active only after the war or

6 were they already active in the area before the war?

7 THE WITNESS: They were only active after the war.


9 Q. Before I move on from the religious communities, did you have a

10 liaison with a particular individual or a particular office for each of

11 those communities, or did you just randomly contact individuals?

12 A. Well, we were very fortunate because, seeing as we were in Kosovo

13 in the immediate aftermath of the war, Kosovo being a very small and

14 geographically compact place, you couldn't help but bump into the people

15 who were involved in various kinds of reconstruction-oriented work. And

16 while in Pristina we attended the weekly conferences held by UNHCR, to

17 which all these agencies were involved. So that's how we got in touch

18 with International Management Group.

19 The clergymen we sought out on our own, and I was about to get to

20 the non-religious organisations -- would you like me to continue?

21 Q. Please continue.

22 A. There is, as I mentioned, an Institute for the Protection of

23 Monuments of Kosovo. It's a central body based in Pristina. Their

24 archives were evacuated to Serbia after the war, so they didn't have a

25 great deal of documentation, but some members of the institute had gone

Page 5431

1 out and done some documentation on their own and they shared their

2 photographs with us.

3 In addition, we were able to obtain other photographs from local

4 agencies. There was an Institute for the Protection of Monuments in

5 Djakovica, or Gjakova, in Western Kosovo, and they had documentation. The

6 United Nations Administration in Kosovo had a regional office in Pec, or

7 Peje, in north-western Kosovo, which had also undertaken a project in the

8 year after the war to document what happened to historic civil

9 architecture in that region and we collected that material. So we

10 collected information from a variety of sources, which are listed in an

11 appendix to our report.

12 Q. I believe those are contained in appendix 2.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The Institute for Protection of Monuments of Kosovo, what kind of

15 agency was that? Was that a private or a governmental institution; do you

16 know?

17 A. It was a governmental institution at the provincial level, at the

18 level of Kosovo.

19 Q. Pre-existing before the war?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The local institute in Djakovica, what about that? Is that

22 private, governmental?

23 A. It was municipal.

24 Q. And pre-existing before the war?

25 A. Again.

Page 5432

1 Q. In addition to those, you had some information from private

2 sources, private individuals.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What about the media as a source?

5 A. At no time did we include a site or document a site based

6 exclusively on media sources; however, we did comb all the media reports

7 for first-hand reports of damage. This, we thought, was important,

8 largely in pinning down the time of damage. If a reporter had passed by a

9 site at a particular date and noted that the roof was missing or the

10 minaret was toppled or the church was collapsed, then we knew that it was

11 at least damaged as of that date. Similarly, if the report says it was

12 intact, we noted that. So in -- it was helpful in corroborating other

13 kinds of evidence that we had.

14 Q. And I think I read that part of your requirement for making an

15 assessment regarding damage required a photo.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that just one photo of the damage or a photo of the

18 pre-existing condition or both?

19 A. Well, preferably both, but failing a pre-war photo, at least a

20 photo of the damaged building. You know, there is a lot you can tell from

21 a damaged building from a photograph, so you don't always need the

22 pre-existing photo. That's the optimal. We also got very fortunate with

23 regard to pre-existing photos because, through our research, we found a

24 gentleman in Prizren named Raif Virmica. His name is mentioned in the

25 report. He was a local journalist who had -- who was a private scholar

Page 5433

1 and had developed an interest in the heritage of Kosovo and had published

2 a number of books on it. And because he had published these books

3 privately, his address was in the back. So on a chance we looked him up

4 and he turned out to have a private archive of hundreds of photographs,

5 many of them taken just a year before the war with a camera with a date

6 stamp. So we were able to use his photos, so --

7 Q. Could you spell his last name for me and the court reporter.

8 A. Sure. His first name is R-a-i-f. His last name is V, as in

9 Victor, i-r-m-i-c-a.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to ask you about damage to Islamic

11 religious heritage, and you've described some of the buildings that fall

12 into the category of religious buildings. Was there a particular type

13 among those several various kinds that seemed to be most frequently

14 damaged?

15 A. Well, the most publicly visible Muslim institution is, of course,

16 the mosque, which generally has a tall minaret. It's slim, steeple-like

17 structure, which both serves a symbolic function pointing to the heavens,

18 testifying to the unitive God, but also a practical function, that's where

19 the call to prayer is issued from. And it's usually at the centre of a

20 given village or neighbourhood. And we had, from that journal I

21 mentioned, a statistic published before the war, in 1993 I believe, that

22 at that point there were 607 mosques in all of Kosovo. Of these, we found

23 documentation or, through our site visit, evidence that at least 225 had

24 been destroyed or damaged during 1998/1999, so over a third of all mosques

25 in Kosovo.

Page 5434

1 Q. In connection with that, how were you able to determine that the

2 damage to those 225 had occurred during that time-period in 1998/1999?

3 How did you do that?

4 A. Well, the date of damage, of course, can be determined in various

5 ways. First of all, let me stress, we were there after the war so we are

6 in no sense eye-witnesses to anything but the aftermath. We were not

7 there to watch the destruction. However, first of all, it was relatively

8 easy to tell whether a building had been recently damaged. I mentioned

9 before evidence of weathering and growth of vegetation. If a building had

10 been burned down relatively recently, you could see freshly burned wood,

11 marks of soot that hadn't been washed away by the rain. You know, even

12 the smell was still quite persistent a few months after the war.

13 Obviously, if a building had suffered damage quite visibly from

14 projectiles, you know, huge blast holes in the wall or marks of bullets

15 all over, I think it would have been a fair conclusion that this is not

16 something that happened in peacetime. Through the journalists' reports,

17 through any eye-witnesses who came forward, and, of course, any

18 information we obtained from the affected religious communities, all of

19 that we included in our report and sourced it carefully. And obviously

20 it's up to the Court to determine how reliable these reports are as to

21 date.

22 Q. In addition to those physical sites you described, when you went

23 out and saw the damage, the one other thing that might assist you in

24 dating that would be the date of the most recent photograph of a site

25 where it was still standing intact?

Page 5435

1 A. Yes, and that's one of the reasons we were very eager to find

2 pre -- recent pre-war photos, if possible.

3 Q. In your report you state that much of the damage to these mosques

4 was "clearly the result of attacks directed on the mosque." Can you tell

5 us why you made that conclusion, as opposed to being collateral damage or

6 something else.

7 A. In all of our site reports, we include a category for context,

8 "context" meaning the condition of its closely neighbouring or

9 surrounding buildings. Obviously, in the case of a building that is

10 isolated, standing in the middle of countryside, that is not an issue.

11 But most of these buildings were in fairly densely built-up settlements.

12 And in each case, we noted whether neighbouring buildings showed any

13 damage. We also looked at things like what the nature of the damage was.

14 Obviously, if a building showed lots of impacts of small-arms fire,

15 there's -- it was plausible that it had been caught in the middle of a

16 battle.

17 If the only damage to the building was the minaret having been

18 blown up, and often with signs that it had been blown up with explosives

19 packed inside, the minaret has internal staircase, and when it is blown up

20 in that fashion often the structure often balloons out, flares out. And

21 you can see sometimes the powder marks as the blast expands. That kind of

22 damage is clearly not accidental; it's intentional.

23 Q. You mention, I think, that there were some 607 mosques from 1993.

24 Do you recall how many of those were still active -- in active use in

25 1999?

Page 5436

1 A. I don't have the report in front of me, but as I recall it was

2 590-odd. So it's almost all of them were still in use.

3 Q. I think your number may indicate 568, does that sound about

4 right?

5 A. Well, that's plausible.

6 Q. Okay. Now, I want to contrast or go to the damage to Roman

7 Catholic religious sites. First of all, in general, can you tell us

8 number-wise, in rough figures, what was -- what were the relative figures

9 in terms of Islamic sites, Roman Catholic, and Serbo-Orthodox. Which was

10 the most numerous?

11 A. Well, the numbers reflected the make-up of the population. The

12 great majority of the population in Kosovo was Albanian, and the great

13 majority of the Albanians were traditionally adherents of the Islamic

14 faith. So there were more standing mosques than there were standing

15 churches. The minority among the Albanians that was Catholic was a

16 relatively small minority; it may be 10 per cent or so. And Catholic

17 settlements tended to be grouped in particular areas of Kosovo. So we're

18 talking at a relatively low number. In between the two lies the number of

19 Serbian Orthodox churches.

20 Kosovo is, of course, a historic centre of the Serbian Orthodox

21 church and contains some of the most famous and revered structures of

22 Serbian Orthodox religious architecture. The number of these that is in

23 actual use, or was in actual use before the war, was relatively smaller.

24 And so we're talking about some hundreds of buildings; many of them humble

25 village churches, some of them major works of art.

Page 5437

1 Q. Before I move on, I wanted to ask you a question about Kosovo

2 Albanian, I guess, I would say civilian architecture. Kullas,

3 k-u-l-l-a-s, can you tell us what those are; describe them for us.

4 A. Kulla -- the word kulla actually means tower. And what it is, it

5 is a traditional Albanian dwelling, peculiar, really, to the area of and

6 nearly adjacent territories in Montenegro and Macedonia. These were built

7 mostly in the 18th and 19th century. They're quite splendid stone

8 structures, usually built in groups and villages and housing - excuse me -

9 and often housing multiple generations of a clan or extended family.

10 Q. We've had some in the testimony, earlier in this case,

11 describing -- describing, I think, what you've just talked about as sort

12 of compounds; it's several buildings joined together and surrounded by

13 walls?

14 A. Yes. They're often in a group. A typical village like that would

15 be Nivokaz, which is N-i-v-o-k-a-z, north of Djakovica, which had maybe 20

16 or 30 of these in several compounds. Decani is another community that was

17 famous for an old town that was essentially composed entirely of kullas.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I think perhaps you should spell Nivokaz again for

19 us.

20 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, N-i-v-o-k-a-z.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. In the Milosevic trial, I understand there was some issue about

23 the origin, or the attribution, of these to a particular culture. And

24 there was an issue about whether it pertained to Kosovo Albanians or to

25 some other group. Are you familiar with that?

Page 5438

1 A. Yes. In cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic kept insisting that

2 these were not really Albanian architecture, that, in fact, there were

3 also Serbian kullas. And, among other things, he cited an article by Mark

4 Krasnici, M-a-r-k, K-r-a-s-n-i-c-i, or the Albanian spelling could be

5 K-r-a-s-n-i-q-i, who, back in 1958, wrote a seminal article about kullas.

6 And at the time I hadn't been familiar with the article, given that it was

7 published so long before the war, but I looked it up since. And it was

8 interesting that, on the very first page of the article, Mr. Krasniqi says

9 that kullas in Kosovo are built, primarily, by Albanians. And, as such

10 they, they are regarded as an ethnic symbol; a fact which has contributed

11 to their popularity and spread in the region. More significantly,

12 perhaps, in 1996, so just three years before the Kosovo war, the

13 Republican Institute for the Protection of Monuments of Serbia in Belgrade

14 published a work on vernacular architecture in Serbia by Jovan Krunic, who

15 is one of the leading scholars in that field in Serbia. And the title of

16 the article on kullas is "Siptarska kulla u Mehotija"; the Albanian

17 "Metohija" being the Serbian name for the western part of Kosovo.

18 So clearly there was a recognition among scholars, both Albanian

19 and Serbian, and by the Institute for the Protection of Monuments of

20 Serbia, that the kulla was an Albanian ethnic symbol.

21 Q. Thank you. I wanted to now go to your survey and talk about some

22 particular sites.

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have a hard copy of the materials I

24 wanted to show the witness. It may be easier for him to follow along with

25 that because there are a number of pages I will be referring to. If I

Page 5439

1 could hand him that. And then the first e-court item I want to put on the

2 screen will be Exhibit P1799.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, the report that we have, I think, is

4 P1789.

5 MR. HANNIS: It is, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that a version for this case rather than the

7 entire report? Or is that the entire --

8 MR. HANNIS: That's the entire report. You should have received a

9 CD in connection with that exhibit.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I've received --

11 MR. HANNIS: And you a hard copy of the report, the body of the

12 report.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: This is a report which runs to 25 pages and then

14 has attachments relating to particular sites. Is that correct? It's a

15 report running to about 25 pages and then there are a series of

16 attachments relating to particular sites.

17 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour. You'll see in the --

18 you have a copy of the witness notification?


20 MR. HANNIS: You'll see that the disk that was provided to the

21 Court contains a series of ERN numbers. The report itself is sort of in

22 the middle of that list of ERNs --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: But all of these extracts are in the report with

24 the exception of the very first one, I think, which relates to Orthodox

25 damage.

Page 5440

1 What I'm trying to establish, Mr. Hannis, is whether everything

2 that was done by Mr. Riedlmayer has been presented as part of this package

3 of material, or whether, when it comes to looking at individual buildings,

4 you have been selective and have included only the ones that are relevant

5 to this indictment.

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the study contains all of them.


8 MR. HANNIS: What I intend to show him are the photographs and the

9 selected pages pertaining to those that are listed in the indictment.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: So if you take P1789, on your summary --

11 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: -- you've identified the page numbers as well,

13 these ERN numbers --

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: -- for the documents which comprise P1789.

16 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that a selective list from the report that

18 Mr. Riedlmayer presented to the OTP, or is it the entire report?

19 MR. HANNIS: It's the entire report, Your Honour. And you will

20 see, if you compare the numbers, for example, Exhibit P1788, which has the

21 English ERN of K020-9391 to 9393, is listed as one of the ERN ranges under

22 Exhibit P1789.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I understand that. I think that applies to

24 virtually all of this other material. And what I've printed off as a

25 result of that doesn't cover anything like the total number of buildings I

Page 5441

1 expected would be in the full report; that's why I asked the question.

2 MR. HANNIS: Yes, there is a database that was associated --


4 MR. HANNIS: -- with this report.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. But what I printed off seems to

6 be a limited selection of sites which apply to the indictment.

7 MR. HANNIS: And may I inquire, did Your Honour print off all of

8 the ERNs under this exhibit number?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: No, what's under P1789, because the rest is

10 duplication.

11 MR. HANNIS: Yes. The difference is, Your Honour, some of the

12 enlarged photographs have a different number.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, and they did not print off, I have to say,

14 but I was able to establish what they were.

15 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Anyway, please carry on. Perhaps it will become

17 clearer as the questions proceed.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. May I -- let me see.

19 If we could have Exhibit P1799 on screen.

20 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, do you see that photograph on the screen before

21 you?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Can you tell the Court what that is.

24 A. Yes, that is the Carsiska Xhamija, the market mosque in the centre

25 of Vucitrn. It's a photograph taken in 1998 just before the war.

Page 5442

1 Q. All right.

2 A. And since I assume you will show for the next picture the picture

3 of the site, please note, Your Honours, to the left of the mosque, in the

4 background, is a tall building with a single window underneath the eaves.

5 You will see it in the next photo.

6 Q. I believe there are three or four more pages with this particular

7 exhibit number. If we could go to the next page.

8 A. Okay. You will see the same building in the background, and in

9 the front you can see the remains of the foundations of the mosque and the

10 steps that used to lead up to the door of the mosque. This is a photo

11 that we took during our first field trip in Kosovo in October of 1999, and

12 the triangular space in the centre of town where the mosque had stood and

13 around the mosque, the traditional Albanian goldsmiths bazaar had been

14 completely burned down. You can see traces of burned structures, and then

15 leveled with a road grader, the remains of which could still be seen off

16 to the side. Surrounding this square on all sides were tall, modern

17 buildings, which showed no sign whatsoever of damage, for the most part.

18 Q. When you said the remains of which could be seen off to one side,

19 you're talking about the remains of the building or --

20 A. Of the road grader.

21 Q. Of the road grader.

22 A. Of the remains of the building what you see is what was left,

23 basically some charred beams and some rubble here and there.

24 Q. I'm sorry, I moved a little too fast.

25 MR. HANNIS: Could we go back to page 1 of this exhibit.

Page 5443

1 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, I'll ask the usher to assist you and hand you an

2 electronic pen with which you can actually touch the screen and mark on

3 the photograph. Could you mark on this photograph, page 1 of Exhibit

4 1799, the building that you talked about that appears in the next

5 paragraph.

6 A. [Marks].

7 MR. HANNIS: Could we take a screen shot of that and give it the

8 next IC number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC87, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. HANNIS: Now could we go to page 2 of this exhibit.

12 Q. Now, likewise, on this photo, could you use the pen again and mark

13 that same building.

14 A. [Marks].

15 MR. HANNIS: And can we take a screen shot of that and give it the

16 next IC number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC88, Your Honours.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

19 Q. Now, any other comment on that photo before we move on to the next

20 one?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right.

23 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to page 3 of this exhibit.

24 Q. Can you tell us what is on the screen now.

25 A. This is another mosque in Vucitrn, the oldest mosque in town. The

Page 5444

1 mosque itself was built in the 15th century, in the 1400s, and it's a

2 photo taken immediately from the adjacent street. You can see in the

3 foreground the edge of a wall. We're standing in the street looking over

4 into the yard of the mosque. The minaret has been sheered off and has

5 collapsed on the mosque. According to local residents, the mosque was --

6 the mosque minaret had been shot off by a tank cannon from a tank that was

7 just where this photograph was taken from.

8 Q. How would you and Mr. Herscher describe the damage pictured here?

9 A. We qualified this as a lightly damaged building.

10 Q. And the previous one we saw, that was a completely damaged

11 example?

12 A. Completely destroyed, because there was no visible sign of the

13 building left.

14 MR. HANNIS: Next page, please.

15 Q. Can you tell us what this is.

16 A. This is the Karamanli mosque in Vucitrn, the third of Vucitrn's

17 three mosques. K-r-a-m-a-n -- no, I'm sorry, K-a-r-a-m-a-n-l-i. The

18 Karamanli mosque in Vucitrn. And it has suffered a similar fate. The

19 minaret, you can still see the base of it and you can see the rubble, both

20 on the ground next to the mosque and smashed through the roof.

21 Q. And this would also be characterised as lightly damaged?

22 A. This is the one that Mr. Herscher and I had the argument about but

23 he won; it's lightly damaged.

24 Q. All right.

25 MR. HANNIS: And I think one more page to this exhibit.

Page 5445

1 Q. Can you tell what this is.

2 A. This is the interior of the Karamanli mosque with the rubble of

3 the minaret that has fallen through the roof.

4 Q. Do you recall when these photographs were taken in Vucitrn?

5 A. In October of 1999.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. HANNIS: Now, if we could go to Exhibit P1788.

8 Q. And in compiling your report, Mr. Riedlmayer, did you establish a

9 database in which to keep all this information?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. And when we have this next document on the screen, can you tell us

12 if this is a page from the database?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. Explain how you decided what kind of information to put in there

15 and where you obtained the information to input.

16 A. Well --

17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --

18 THE WITNESS: The first field is --

19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, Mr. Ivetic is up.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

21 MR. IVETIC: Sorry, Your Honour, I had some time to locate this

22 one in my set of exhibits. I do have an objection that I will be making

23 with respect to the extracts from the study relating to the various

24 sites. This one, in particular, I had to verify to make sure that this

25 was one of the ones I have an objection to; I do.

Page 5446

1 As to the admission of the document and any testimony relating to

2 what other people or other sources indicated to him insofar as this

3 document, I believe, is objectionable under the same standards that we

4 have applied previously to Under Orders and to the As Seen, As Told books,

5 namely, that they are an attempt by the Prosecution to introduce, pursuant

6 to Rule 92 -- improper use of 92 bis, written statements alleging acts and

7 conduct of individuals that are not under oath, in many cases are not even

8 identified.

9 In this case, we do have the identity of some of the informants

10 who provided the information, but, in any event we have heard testimony

11 here today that the OTP, prior to Mr. Riedlmayer going to the site,

12 instructed him not to depose people, that they would be deposed

13 subsequently. And I presume the logical follow-up to that would be if

14 they had information to provide that was credible, they would be brought

15 here as witnesses. Many, if not all, of the persons named as informants

16 or sources for this information in these written extracts or reports are

17 not, in fact, on the witness list and are not being brought here for the

18 ability for confrontation and cross-examination. And therefore, the

19 written reports, the extracts thereof, suffers from the same defect and

20 flaw as we saw in Under Orders and in As Seen, As Told, namely, that it

21 provides statements of persons that the OTP itself, in its instructions to

22 Mr. Riedlmayer, knew it could not utilise as evidence in trial. And now

23 the same Office of the Prosecutor is presenting this document in written

24 form as its only evidence for how these buildings and objects were damaged

25 and when they were damaged.

Page 5447

1 I believe Mr. Riedlmayer can testify as to what he saw and what

2 the damage was that he saw, but I believe once we start going into the

3 cause of the damage and, in particular, if the cause is said to be

4 intentional, the manner and the perpetrators of said damage, that I

5 believe we are going outside the bounds of any type of expertise or

6 knowledge that he might have and therefore are falling into a trap and

7 into an area that I believe should be inadmissible.

8 I can get up for the -- I have gone through each of the extracts

9 and have marked what I believe to be areas that are objectionable based

10 upon this, and so if Your Honours are, indeed, inclined to rule that way,

11 I could, with the Prosecutor, meet and have these exhibits redacted

12 because I believe, again, that it's a portion of the exhibits that is

13 objectionable and is, in fact, improper evidence to be led in any form.

14 So I just wanted to make Your Honours aware of that and, in

15 particular, with this one, with the Vucitrn, I do have some items in here

16 that are, indeed -- that, indeed, fall into this category of written

17 statements by persons who are available as witnesses but who are not being

18 called as witnesses that do not comport to the requirements of the Rules

19 of this Tribunal for written evidence.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 First of all, hearsay is admissible. I think this report -- these

24 reports can be distinguished from As Seen, As Told in some ways. First of

25 all, the collectors of the information in this case are basically, as I

Page 5448

1 understand it, two individuals - Mr. Riedlmayer and Mr. Herscher - so

2 there's some consistency in their approach. We would urge Your Honours

3 not to accept Mr. Ivetic's motion or objection at this time, but decide at

4 the end of the case, when you've heard all the evidence, about how much

5 weight to give these reports.

6 For example, in this case, the information about how a particular

7 minaret was destroyed is from an individual who says that it was shot by a

8 tank. If the visual information concerning the destruction appears

9 consistent with that, if other evidence shows in the case that on that

10 date or that week in April or May of 1999, a particular VJ military unit

11 was in the area and other evidence shows that the only entities that had

12 access to the tanks at that time were VJ, then you may give more weight to

13 that hearsay information from an informant who said it happened that way.

14 But I think it's premature for the Trial Chamber to throw that out

15 at this point without waiting until you've heard all the other evidence.

16 You're professional Judges and you can decide whether or not that's

17 something you have to erase from your mind later on because there's been

18 no other evidence and you decide to give it no weight.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, can you assist me, just to be clear, of

20 the exact status of what we're looking at. We have this report which, as

21 I say, has a narrative content of about 25 pages. There is then a

22 database related to it. Is that correct?

23 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and we intended for Your Honours to have that

24 database.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is that incorporated in the report? Can you

Page 5449

1 help me with that. It's paragraph 3.0, is it?

2 MR. HANNIS: Let me check, Your Honour. It may be -- yes, I mean,

3 the report does make reference to the database --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: That particular page or part seems to be missing

5 from the report, unless -- oh, unless -- no, I think what it does is

6 identify the database as consisting of a number of sources. Is that

7 correct?

8 Do you have a copy of your report available, Mr. Riedlmayer?

9 THE WITNESS: The database was submitted both in CD form and hard

10 copy and it --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me take this just stage by stage, please. Do

12 you have your report available?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's at the end here.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you go to what's called appendix 3, but --


16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, in the index at the beginning, the table of

17 contents, section 3 is entitled "Use of Database."


19 JUDGE BONOMY: And then when you go to section 3 you get what's

20 called appendix 3, "Allegations of Destruction" --


22 JUDGE BONOMY: -- is that different?

23 THE WITNESS: That is different. That is A3. This is 3.0, which

24 is on page 10.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Page 10, sorry.

Page 5450


2 JUDGE BONOMY: So thus the database becomes part of your report;

3 is that the position?

4 THE WITNESS: It is part of the report, sir.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, when you reflect in any -- in relation to any

6 property, the information given to you by an informant or, as you've

7 described it, local resident, who was it that obtained that information?

8 THE WITNESS: We were standing at the mosque site, taking

9 pictures, and he stepped forward.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but who obtained the information? Was it --

11 you've given us two names today working on this report, yourself and

12 Mr. Herscher.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. The two of us would be there and one of us

14 would note down the information and the particulars of the person who had

15 given it to us.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And did you always work together?

17 THE WITNESS: We always did, yes.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: And did you rely, for the source of these

19 statements that you referred to, on anyone else other than you two

20 gathering these statements?

21 THE WITNESS: No. We collected no second-hand reports.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ivetic, this is clearly entirely different

23 from either As Seen, As Told or Under Orders, with this exception that the

24 parts of Mr. Abrahams, the parts of Mr. Abrahams material that we did

25 admit was very similar in nature to what's being described here by

Page 5451

1 Mr. Riedlmayer.

2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, what I would indicate is, if you look

3 at the investigation the corroborating report - and here it's media

4 accounts - is from other parties who are not persons with whom

5 Mr. Riedlmayer had contact. For instance, there is an Abdullah Mulaku,

6 who is cited --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give me a second until I get back to this

8 page. Which --

9 MR. IVETIC: The part I'm talking about now is at K0209393, is the

10 number --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second until I get it.

12 MR. IVETIC: It's under the media accounts.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: We are, as a Trial Chamber, very conscious of the

14 difficulties associated with relying at all on media accounts, but it's

15 interesting that, in his evidence so far, Mr. Riedlmayer said that they

16 never used media as an exclusive source for determining anything in this;

17 they used media principally as indicators of dates and then worked around

18 other material.

19 MR. IVETIC: I agree. I agree. I would also point out that,

20 whereas this particular one for Vucitrn, which is why I paused before

21 objecting, does list the informant name and was someone whom

22 Mr. Riedlmayer spoke with, there are others where there is no informant

23 listed or the information was obtained from other sources. So that's

24 something that we might be a little bit more able to see if we go through

25 more of the evidence and see what else he has to offer.

Page 5452

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we're going to have to build up an attitude

2 to this.

3 MR. IVETIC: Right.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And you're going to have to take specific

5 objections if you feel there is a solid basis for them. But I've got two

6 comments to make. One is the one to repeat what has already been said

7 about putting materials, such as media reports, in the context that

8 Mr. Riedlmayer puts it; and secondly, that no objection was taken under

9 Rule 94 to the relevance of any of the material in this report when

10 objections were taken generally to expert reports, so I wasn't

11 anticipating this particular objection arising.

12 However, we will repel the objection to this particular piece of

13 material, but let's see if there are more fundamental points to be taken

14 later which we can then consider.

15 It's now time for our first break, Mr. Riedlmayer. The usher will

16 show you where to wait. If you could leave the courtroom just now, and

17 then we'll see you again in about 20 minutes.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness to

25 come in, can I explain a little to answer part of your question, I think,

Page 5453

1 about the exhibit. Exhibit 177 -- 1789 has his written report, plus it

2 has photographs and the pages from the database that pertain to these

3 individual mosques that we're talking about now. So there's some

4 duplication that this exhibit, that we were looking at the break, 1788,

5 are pages from the database concerning the mosque in Vucitrn. But those

6 pages -- that page range, K0209391 to 9393, is contained among those items

7 that are included in Exhibit P1789. That's my understanding in the

8 Milosevic trial, the entire database was submitted. And I think what

9 happened was we went through and copied those pages that pertained to

10 these particular mosques, and then they were given ERNs. The database

11 itself was not given a complete set of ERN numbers.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: But what is your proposal about its status for

13 this trial?

14 [The witness took the stand]

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm at the Court's discretion, because I

16 understand the Court's ruling in other cases might be consistent with us

17 only presenting the evidence about these mosques. I would have an

18 argument to make that the evidence regarding the other sites of cultural

19 destruction are relevant for other purposes, to show that there was a

20 widespread and systematic pattern of behaviour here; that the damage that

21 was done in these cases is not random or accidental, in light of the

22 number and nature of the damages done in other cases; to show the fairness

23 and objectivity of this expert in terms of the report, because it shows

24 the damages they investigated regarding Serb and -- Serb Orthodox and

25 Catholic sites --

Page 5454

1 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll come back to that, Mr. Hannis. But can I

2 take it that these individual pages that do have numbers on the 65 ter

3 intimation, and which are part of what you've compiled as P1789, relate to

4 the named locations in subparagraph (d) of 77.

5 MR. HANNIS: They do. But there are a few additional items

6 contained under 1789 that refer to, I think, the extract that has examples

7 of damage to Serb and Catholic structures as well.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Let's continue with the evidence

9 meanwhile.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, I wanted to ask you about Exhibit 1788, and do you

12 have that on the screen in front of you?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Is this a page from your database?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. Okay. Can -- I would like just, as a general matter, to go

17 through and have you explain to us what you put in your database. And if

18 we can just go through a page -- I mean we can see it ourself, but can you

19 explain how you created the database.

20 A. Yes, sir. The first thing we tried to nail down was the building

21 name. And we tried to include alternative forms of name so that anyone

22 who looks at it, if they encounter it by the other name, could at least

23 link it to this particular data field. Then we included the municipality

24 or district, the names of the town in Serbian and Albanian. We had a GPS

25 device with us. And sites we visited personally, we always took a GPS

Page 5455

1 reading in order to -- well, for two purposes: One is to enable us to map

2 our results once we got back; and secondly, to make it duplicatable so

3 anyone could go to the same site and see if that is indeed where we were.

4 Then we included the dates of construction and reconstruction, if

5 possible, what historical site. Then we included in information on the

6 official status.

7 The former Yugoslavia, like many countries, had antiquities

8 legislation, under which certain buildings were declared to be listed

9 monuments. A listed monument under this Yugoslav legislation meant that

10 it was under legal protection. It could not be altered or demolished

11 without permission, and certain amount of state funds were made available

12 for restoration. Then we have some categories of the building use and

13 building type, which are useful in the database for generating statistics,

14 among other things. The building setting - this was an urban setting -

15 the most important one is of course the building condition --

16 Q. Okay.

17 MR. HANNIS: If we could scroll down on that page.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. So we have a simple visual description of what we saw. And you

20 can see that we saw scattered piles of rubble, the stone foundations. We

21 were able to identify some of these, such as parts of the minaret and the

22 ablution fountain. We saw evidence of how it happened. There was a

23 large, knocked-down utility pole, which was also visible next to the

24 mosque in the pre-destruction photo. And it was completely charred on one

25 side, so presumably that had been exposed to fire. And then some remarks

Page 5456

1 about the context, which you can also see in the bottom photo here;

2 namely, that the more than buildings surrounding the site were intact.

3 Q. And I see, at the bottom, there is a listing for surveyor.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How did you decide whose name went in there?

6 A. Basically, who was holding the camera; the other person would be

7 taking the notes.

8 Q. And I see the top photo, on this page, is by someone named Xhavit

9 Lokaj. Who is that?

10 A. Xhavit Lokaj is a member of the staff of the Institute for The

11 Protection of Monuments of Kosovo. And in the summer of 1999, after the

12 end of the war, he took a lot of photographs. And he was willing to share

13 them with us. We liked to get his photographs because they were taken in

14 the immediate aftermath of war, whereas we were there four months later.

15 So sometimes they show sites before they had been tidied up.

16 Q. Now, in your database are these photographs in colour?

17 A. Yes, they are.

18 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the next page in this exhibit.

19 Q. We have a couple more photos, pre-war, and these are from a

20 gentleman you met before, Raif Virmica.

21 A. Virmica.

22 Q. Could we go down to see the informant's statements at the top of

23 this screen. Now, can you explain how you put this information, where you

24 get it from, and how it's entered.

25 A. Basically when we were visiting some of these sites, there would

Page 5457

1 be people who would be gathered to watch us take pictures and some of them

2 would come forward and say they saw what happened. If what they said

3 sounded like it would be potentially of interest, we took down the basic

4 information and took down their names and contact information accessible.

5 Q. And where did you record that information, as far as contact

6 information?

7 A. We had survey sheets that we carried with us, and for each site we

8 filled it in, along with the damage description and the GPS reading. We

9 would also put in information such as this. And then once we got back in

10 Cambridge and we developed and scanned our photos, we then keyed it into

11 the database.

12 Q. So the contact information for the informants is in the database.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And where in the database? Is that a separate section?

15 A. No, it's usually at the bottom. In this case Mr. Mejzini was at a

16 loss because he was about to leave town and was not able to give us a new

17 address. I assumed, since the family is well known and it's a small town,

18 anybody truly interested from your Pristina office could have gone and run

19 him to ground.

20 Q. Is there any more information on this page at the bottom or is

21 that it?

22 A. Yes. And so you see at the left Mr. Mulaku, the town archivist,

23 who is also mentioned in that Financial Times article that was referred to

24 earlier --

25 Q. Mm-hmm.

Page 5458

1 A. -- he was one of the people who showed up when we did our survey

2 in Vucitrn, and so we have the phone number for him.

3 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page of this exhibit.

4 Q. And then lastly in your database you have a bibliography and media

5 accounts, if any, about the particular site.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Anything else to comment on that page?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. HANNIS: If we could go next to Exhibit P1807.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second, Mr. Hannis, until I --

12 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- check something.

14 Is Vucitrn a murder scene? Is it part of paragraph 75?

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's paragraph --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Paragraph (i).

17 MR. HANNIS: (i), yes, 72(i). It relates to a convoy. And you'll

18 recall, this convoy was not -- was actually on the road between Vucitrn

19 and elsewhere, not in the town itself. It's in the municipality but not

20 in the town.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: That's on the 2nd of May.

22 MR. HANNIS: Correct.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. I see that the media account related to the

24 various mosques we've been looking at. It also includes reference to

25 murders on the 22nd of May. Now, that's not part of the indictment. Is

Page 5459

1 that correct?

2 MR. HANNIS: No, it's not, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

4 Now, Mr. Ivetic, you'll see that this Financial Times report does

5 include material which can be compared with the information given by the

6 informants on the previous page, but also includes additional material

7 which goes out with the indictment. Now, our approach will be to exclude

8 from consideration material that doesn't fall within the ambit of the

9 indictment. But to take account of media reports which quote people and

10 can be compared with other information given by the same people, that

11 seems to us relevant; what weight we give it is quite another matter.

12 If that gives you some guidance on how this document might be

13 used, then it may enable you to focus any other objections you take. I

14 qualify this, of course, by saying that because of the nature of these

15 indictments you can never be absolutely sure that a subtle prosecutor

16 isn't going to be able to point to a sentence construed a particular way

17 as including something that's in this document. But we will view this

18 document as essentially a document relating to cultural heritage and to

19 the issue of persecution that's raised in Count 5 and not as a document

20 which goes to the other elements, unless the Prosecution, before

21 completing this witness, indicates parts of this report that they claim

22 are relevant to other counts in the indictment.

23 Now, is that of use to you in deciding what needs to be objected

24 to here?

25 MR. IVETIC: It is, Your Honour, and I've talked to my colleagues

Page 5460

1 during the break and what we intend to do is, rather than object through

2 each and every single excerpt and take up more time, we'd rather, at the

3 end of the Prosecution's direct of this witness, give a summation of all

4 the specific objections that we have with respect to specific excerpts so

5 they can be dealt with at that time rather than doing the same

6 argumentation 10, 15 times throughout.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: We would find that helpful. Thank you,

8 Mr. Ivetic.

9 Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour, I need to indicate for the

11 record that I misspoke earlier when you asked me if Vucitrn was a murder

12 site. I said, "Yes, it was," and I referred to 72(i). I meant 75 (i).

13 Thank you.

14 All right. Now, if we could look at Exhibit P1807.

15 Q. Do you have that photo on the screen?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Riedlmayer, what is this a picture of?

18 A. This is a picture that we took of the mosque in the centre of Suva

19 Reka, a town north of Prizren.

20 Q. And my brightness and contrast on the photograph on the screen

21 isn't all that good. Can you indicate to me what is the damage to this

22 mosque.

23 A. If you look at the right-hand corner, first of all, you see

24 something that should be there and isn't. Mosques, in general, in this

25 region of the Balkans, have the minaret at the right-hand side of the

Page 5461

1 entrance, and the minaret here is missing. Where the minaret should be,

2 there is some damage to one of the small domes and also to the corner of

3 the building.

4 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page of this exhibit.

5 Q. Is this a photograph of the same building?

6 A. It is the same building. I've just gone around the right-hand

7 corner and taken this photo of the stump of the minaret. You can see at

8 the bottom of the photo the base of the minaret, and to the left of that

9 is the beginning of the arcade, at the entrance of the mosque.

10 What you can see, by looking at it, is that the structure has

11 ballooned outwards, developing these vertical fissures, because clearly

12 there had been a blast inside the minaret itself. Minarets are hollow and

13 have a staircase inside so that the man who gives the prayer call can

14 climb up.

15 MR. HANNIS: If we can go to Exhibit P1779 next, please.

16 Q. And is this an entrance from your database concerning those

17 photographs?

18 A. It is an entry for that mosque. It's Xhamija Bardhe, which is

19 Albanian for white mosque. It gives the street address. The mosque was

20 built in 1520, but then in 1990, all but the minaret was torn down and

21 replaced with a new mosque.

22 MR. HANNIS: If we could scroll down to the bottom half.

23 THE WITNESS: Okay. At the very bottom you see a photo taken just

24 before the war by Mr. Virmica. You can see the minaret in place. It's a

25 picture taken from behind the mosque.

Page 5462


2 Q. And I note in the information, it's indicated that the minaret was

3 a remaining historic part of the mosque. Can you explain that.

4 A. Meaning that it was a 16th century mosque. It had been in very

5 bad repair. And in 1990, when they re-built the main prayer hall, they

6 left the historic minaret.

7 Q. And what was the source of -- well, let's go to the next page and

8 if you can tell us the source of your information about how this damage

9 came to be done.

10 A. Well, if you scroll down. We encountered a local man who lived

11 across the street from the mosque, just 200 metres down the street, and he

12 described the time when it was destroyed.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. The contact information is at the bottom.

15 MR. HANNIS: If we could scroll to the bottom of the page. Thank

16 you.

17 Q. And did you personally speak with this individual and record this

18 information?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. Thank you. All right.

21 MR. HANNIS: If we could go now to exhibit -- well, is there one

22 more page, I'm sorry, one more page in this exhibit. And the bottom half

23 regarding the media account.

24 Q. And did you have these media accounts in hand before you went to

25 sites or did you collect them after you had been to a site? How did you

Page 5463

1 come to put them in the database?

2 A. Well, again, thanks to working at a large university, I have

3 access to LexisNexis, and I did extensive searches of the news databases

4 and collected these accounts, both before and after, in the process of

5 compiling the database.

6 Q. Okay. Now, before we move on to the next one which relates to

7 Celine village in Orahovac, I want to first ask you, did you testify in

8 the Milosevic trial about a mosque being destroyed in Celine or damaged in

9 Celine?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And are you aware that Mr. Milosevic argued and presented

12 witnesses to indicate that there had never been a mosque in Celine

13 village?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall which witness or witnesses testified to that effect?

16 A. I don't have the exact names of his witnesses. I believe there

17 was a former low-ranking army officer who had been on the scene and

18 there -- anyway, I remember reading news accounts where he boasted that

19 there had never been any.

20 Q. Did you do some research after that to gather any additional

21 information about the existence or non-existence of a mosque in Celine

22 before 1999?

23 A. Well, since I had pictures of the destroyed mosque but had not had

24 a pre-destruction photo, I decided to make a good-faith effort to turn one

25 up, if possible, to see whether, in fact, there was anything to the

Page 5464

1 allegation that there had never been a mosque in Celine.

2 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit P2445, please.

3 Q. And can you tell us what that is.

4 A. This is a picture of the mosque in Celine taken on the eve of the

5 war. I obtained it through the good offices of the secretary of the

6 Islamic community of Kosovo, who, on my behalf, went to Orahovac, which is

7 the nearest town to Celine, and asked the secretary, the local Islamic

8 community, whether such a photo could be found. And he turned up a photo

9 of the mosque as well as an official copy of the entry in the cadastral

10 register concerning the mosque.

11 Q. Can you explain to us what the cadastral registry is.

12 A. The cadastral registry is the land records office. It was

13 maintained before the war by the Yugoslav government, and since June of

14 1999, it's been maintained by UNMIK, the UN Mission in Kosovo.

15 MR. HANNIS: May we show the witness Exhibit 2444.

16 And, Your Honour, I should indicate, for the record, on our list

17 of exhibits we intended to show this witness, we have the ERN numbers

18 mixed between the cadastral register record and the photograph. The

19 photograph is ERN 06046518 and the cadastral register is 6519.

20 Q. Is this the document you were referring to?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what does it indicate about a mosque in Celine?

23 A. If you scroll down, sir, you will see that it has, first of all,

24 right above that the ledger from which this is an extract. Then it has

25 the name of the owner indicated as "The Islamic Community of Kosovo,

Page 5465

1 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the Local Council of the Islamic

2 Community of Orahovac." And then below it it has entries for the

3 building, which is 56 square metres, and the surrounding plot, which is

4 466 square metres. Although no date is indicated for the building, by

5 appearance, it's a modern mosque, and the fact that the owner is referred

6 to as being in the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, it means that

7 the mosque clearly existed before 1992.

8 Q. Okay. And under "Place Name," can you translate for me or explain

9 what's written there.

10 A. Okay. If you go up a bit, it's at -- near the top of the page.

11 It says here "Municipality Orahovac," is the Serbian name; Rahovec is the

12 Albanian name. And then "Cadastral Zone," Celine is the name of the

13 village.

14 Q. And how do we know what type of building it is, that it is a

15 mosque?

16 A. If you scroll down, you can see it. "Xhamija," X-h-a-m-i-j-a, it

17 means mosque. It's under "Place Name."

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to Exhibit P1800.

20 Q. What's this a picture of?

21 A. This is the photo of the destroyed mosque in Celine. I would draw

22 Your Honours' attention to the structure in the middle there, the curved

23 structure. It is layers of concrete into which have been inset bricks,

24 the ends of which show at the edges. And if you go back two pictures, you

25 can see in the before-picture the same structure around the balcony of the

Page 5466

1 minaret. The bricks are a very distinctive, decorative element added to

2 the bottom of the muezzins balcony.

3 Q. Can you use the pen to draw a circle around the structure you're

4 describing.

5 A. [Marks].

6 MR. HANNIS: Sorry, can we give that an IC number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC89, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: And my apologies, could we return to Exhibit 2445.

10 Q. And that structure that you drew a picture of from the damaged

11 photo, to what do you believe it pertains on the pre-war photograph?

12 A. It is this decorative detail at the bottom of the railing of the

13 muezzins balcony.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. HANNIS: Can we give that an IC number?

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC90, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


19 Q. And the damage you saw to this mosque would be described as what,

20 heavily damaged or completely destroyed?

21 A. Completely destroyed.

22 MR. HANNIS: And, next, if we could have P1773 on the screen.

23 Q. This will be another page from your database pertaining to this

24 particular mosque, and anything --

25 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the bottom half of the page? Pardon

Page 5467

1 me.

2 THE WITNESS: It indicates the source of the photograph. It came

3 from Mr. Sabri Bajgora at the Islamic community of Kosovo. I also

4 included the information from there. And if you scroll down the way down,

5 you can see that the information came from two separate sources; one came

6 from the Islamic community, accompanied by that photograph, and the ruined

7 mosque also is included in the IMG database that was compiled in early

8 2000.


10 Q. And what information was included in the IMG database?

11 A. The IMG database also had a very similar photo of the mosque.

12 Q. Okay. Now, could we go to the next page regarding the source of

13 your information regarding the destruction of this mosque.

14 A. There is no next page on this.

15 Q. Okay. So the information about the destruction was based, in

16 part, on your own viewing.

17 A. Mm-hmm.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to Exhibit P1806.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on, what we have is a statement,

21 "Mosque burned down and ruins bulldozed by Serbs ..."

22 THE WITNESS: "According to Islamic --"

23 JUDGE BONOMY: "... according to Islamic community." Now --

24 THE WITNESS: Meaning when I obtained the photograph from the

25 Islamic community, it came with this information. I don't know what more

Page 5468

1 I can say. I wasn't there when it happened.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, something you could tell us further, in your

3 view, the statement that it was burned down and then bulldozed is that

4 consistent with what you saw?

5 THE WITNESS: Well, certainly it looks like a leveled building.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Can you comment on whether it was burned?

7 THE WITNESS: Well, if you go back to the original photograph, you

8 will see two things: First of all, you see some charred timbers sticking

9 out; secondly, you see that the rubble is collapsed in a heap. If the

10 mosque had been blown up, you would have expected the rubble to fly

11 outwards.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: The difficulty with that, of course, is that it's

13 been bulldozed by the time you see it.

14 THE WITNESS: Exactly. So it's very hard to tell very much from a

15 pile of rubble.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Anyway, that's one that you haven't sought to

17 verify in any other way, by going back to the community for more

18 information.


20 JUDGE BONOMY: You haven't done that.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, basically I went back for the additional

22 information about the pre-war existence of the mosque.


24 THE WITNESS: Which also then produced the pre-war photo which

25 shows the structure.

Page 5469


2 THE WITNESS: But as far as what happened to it, no, it's --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: And as far as who did it is concerned, really - and

4 this is no criticism of you at all - you're not providing any reliable

5 information about who did it.

6 THE WITNESS: No. I'm simply passing on the information that was

7 given to me.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you.

9 Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. We would be directing the

11 Court's attention to other evidence that's been presented in this case in

12 connection with those matters.

13 Next, if we could look at Exhibit P1806.

14 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, can you tell us what this is a photograph of?

15 A. Yes. This is a photograph that I took showing the 16th century

16 mosque of Kel Hasan Aga - that's K-e-l, H-a-s-a-n, A-g-a - in the village

17 of Rogovo, which is north of Prizren. What you see is the stump of the

18 blown-up minaret. You can see the initial steps of the internal staircase

19 which has been clearly blown up with explosives placed within. You can

20 see that both from the way that the rubble is lying and also from the main

21 structure itself, which has radiating cracks and part of the dome has been

22 knocked away by falling rubble. To the left is the forecourt of the

23 mosque which has also been smashed by falling rubble.

24 Q. And what classification is this damage?

25 A. This was heavily damaged.

Page 5470

1 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to Exhibit 1784, P1784.

2 Q. Okay. Now, this had an official status?

3 A. Yes. It was a listed monument. It had been published in the

4 scientific literature.

5 Q. Under "Building Setting," on the right, I see a "set

6 relationship." What does that mean?

7 A. Okay. This is a technical term in architecture, whether or not a

8 building adds positively to its setting or whether it's eyesore.

9 "Negative discordance" means that it sticks out.

10 Q. And "positive discordance?"

11 A. Meaning that it's an asset to its setting. It's a harmonious

12 building.

13 Q. Who made that classification?

14 A. That was something Mr. Herscher insisted on.

15 Q. And --

16 A. You may recall that the database was meant to serve, not only for

17 the Tribunal, but also for planning purposes.

18 Q. Planning what?

19 A. Meaning for restoration, conservation.

20 Q. And does positive discordance refer to its status when it was in

21 its pre-war condition?

22 A. Exactly.

23 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the bottom half of this page.

24 Q. And these are photos you and Herscher took?

25 A. Yes. The after photos, yes; the before photo came from Mr.

Page 5471

1 Virmica, yeah.

2 Q. Is that at the bottom of the page?

3 A. Yes. In the original version, you would actually see the mosque.

4 It doesn't reproduce well in black and white.

5 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to 1784 -- I'm sorry, that is 1784.

6 If we could go to the next page of the exhibit.

7 Q. And the source --

8 MR. HANNIS: To the bottom of the page, please.

9 Q. The source of your information?

10 A. Basically, we talked to the man who owned the store across the

11 street, and he had information on somebody who allegedly saw this. We

12 passed that on again, in the expectation that if it was of interest, this

13 would be a way of tracking down the eye-witness.

14 MR. HANNIS: If we could go next to Exhibit P1792.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a different mosque you're moving to or is

16 this the same one?

17 MR. HANNIS: Pardon me, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you moving to a different example?

19 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Because I want to ask a question.

21 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The -- each of these documents has the name of the

23 surveyor. In this particular case, it's Mr. Herscher.


25 JUDGE BONOMY: Others have reference to the EU/IMG database.

Page 5472

1 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: There's also reference to Sabri Bajgora.

3 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: In the case where the surveyor is identified in

5 that way, did you also see the building in its damaged state?

6 THE WITNESS: Unless -- unless, at the bottom, either Mr.

7 Herscher's name or mine is mentioned, it is not one of the 144 sites we

8 visited in person.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Next exhibit, P1792, please.

12 Q. What's on our screen now?

13 A. Okay. This is a photo of a mosque in Bela Crkva, which is another

14 village near Orahovac.

15 Q. And can you describe the nature of the damage that's depicted

16 here.

17 A. Again, what you're looking at is the entrance is to the left, and

18 the brown stump, with the big hole above it, is the remains of the

19 minaret. You can also see, if you look carefully, that the top of the

20 dome has been scarred by falling rubble. I assume the minaret had been

21 blown up.

22 Q. And what did you base that on?

23 A. Well, again, if you look carefully at this photo - and also

24 subsequently, I assume, you will show the database entry and other photos

25 as well - you can see the remains of the minaret. You can see the hole in

Page 5473

1 the building, and the signs of falling rubble.

2 Q. Let's go to the database entry P1774.

3 And this one was classified as heavily damaged?

4 A. Given that it had multiple damage to the roof and to the interior

5 and to the external wall, it was multiply compromised.

6 MR. HANNIS: To the bottom half of the page, please, all the way

7 to the bottom, if we could.

8 Q. And this is not one that you personally visited?

9 A. It's not one that we personally visited, but we had information

10 from multiple sources.

11 Q. And photographs?

12 A. And photographs.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I probably should remember this, but who is Sabri

14 Bajgora?

15 THE WITNESS: Sabri Bajgora was the deputy mufti of Kosovo; the

16 second in the hierarchy of the Islamic community of Kosovo. And he had an

17 personal interest in what happened to Islamic houses of worship houses in

18 the war. So right after the end of the war, the end of summer in 1999, he

19 travelled around Kosovo, took pictures, and collected pictures. And when

20 we arrived in Kosovo, one of the places we visited was the Islamic

21 community. And he offered to make his photographs available, and,

22 initially, he wanted to just give us a CD. But when we said that the

23 original photographs would be preferable, he gave us the original

24 photographs. We returned with a suitcase full of photographs.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Is he actually referred to in your report?

Page 5474

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, he's mentioned as one of the sources.


3 Q. Was he a source for a number of your pre-war photographs?

4 A. Some, but most of the photographs were post-war.

5 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page of this exhibit.

6 Q. Down to the bottom half.

7 A. There's nothing at the bottom half.

8 Q. Okay. No information other than from the database of the IMG and

9 from --

10 A. And a photo taken right after the end of the war from CNN. That

11 one I just took off the CNN web site.

12 Q. And then is there a third page here that has the media --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- reference?

15 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the third page and the related media

16 accounts. Let's move next, then, to Exhibit 18 -- P1801, please.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you do that, again I'm thinking ahead

18 at the moment, but one of your media reports there --

19 MR. HANNIS: Would that be The Scotsman, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, at the top of the second column, refers

21 to "NATO satellite photos showing ... before and after." Now, are these

22 on your database or do these then have to be accessed by going to the web

23 site which is referred to in the newspaper article?

24 THE WITNESS: No, I'm sorry. The satellite photos are on a web

25 site, unfortunately. I assume they can be downloaded if they --

Page 5475

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you look at these?

2 THE WITNESS: Oh, I did look at them, and, you know, among other

3 things, it is a photo of the mosque showing a tall minaret, so it can't be

4 claimed that the mosque never had one.


6 Q. Indeed, in that regard, was Bela Crkva also a place that

7 Mr. Milosevic and his witness indicated there had been no mosque existing

8 prior to the war?

9 A. Yes.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Defence counsel should turn all microphones off.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Does this fit in as a piece of evidence in the

12 case?

13 MR. HANNIS: The satellite photos, Your Honour?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, or is it not.

15 MR. HANNIS: You'll see the satellite photos and/or hear from a

16 witness from Bela Crkva talking about that.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, so they'll come later --

18 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: -- or have we seen them?

20 MR. HANNIS: -- I think we have seen them, but I have to

21 double-check. I have something in mind that I think these relate to, but

22 I have to consult the record.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

25 Could we go, then, to Exhibit 1801, P1801.

Page 5476

1 Q. What's this a picture of?

2 A. This is a picture of the mosque at Cirez; that's C-i-r-e-z in

3 Serbian and Q-i-r-e-z in Albanian.

4 Q. Okay. And the nature of the damage seen here?

5 A. I would -- I would say that it is almost destroyed.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. In other words, the building is not salvageable, but you still see

8 some identifiable elements of it.

9 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to Exhibit P1778.

10 Q. Your database pages reference this one?

11 A. The typical entry.

12 Q. All right.

13 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the bottom half of the page and all

14 the way to the bottom.

15 Q. This is another one that you didn't see yourself.

16 A. I did not see it myself, but I had a pre-war and post-war photo

17 from Mr. Bajgora, and it also showed up with photos from the EU/IMG

18 database.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: In the heading "Damage," who is responsible for

20 that comment?

21 THE WITNESS: That, again, came with the photos from Mr. Bajgora.

22 I wasn't there.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not your assessment of --


25 JUDGE BONOMY: And can you say whether that's consistent with what

Page 5477

1 the photographs demonstrate, or is it just impossible for you to make a

2 conclusion on that?

3 THE WITNESS: Well, it's very hard to tell from the photograph

4 whether this was done by impacts or projectiles or somebody detonating

5 something inside.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So we've got to get that information from another

7 source.


9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

11 Q. Next, a couple for which we don't have photographs here. P1786, I

12 think, is a page from your database. Can you tell us what this refers to.

13 A. Okay. This is an old mosque in a village called Kotlina, in

14 southern Kosovo, in Kacanik. If you scroll down, please, you will see

15 that I saw the photo of it in the EU/IMG database. For technical reasons,

16 Your Honour, we were unable to extract the photos from the IMG database,

17 but we did submit it along with the report.

18 Q. Okay. My understanding, yes, you introduced your report and your

19 database in the Milosevic case.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And at that time you included a disk you had received from IMG

22 concerning their database.

23 A. Right, yes.

24 Q. But at that time neither the Registry nor the Court nor the

25 Prosecution were able to open that particular disk.

Page 5478

1 A. Oh, really?

2 Q. My question is: Did you know that?

3 A. I did not.

4 Q. Have you brought a new disk of that database?

5 A. I can send you one.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. But you have seen the photo that pertains to

7 that --

8 A. I have.

9 Q. And it matches the damage you have describe here.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it's lightly damaged, and it is vandalism inside.

12 A. Meaning it looks smashed up.

13 MR. HANNIS: If we can go, then, to Exhibit P1787.

14 Q. Tell us about this one.

15 A. This is another village in the south, near Kacanik. It's a mosque

16 in a village called Ivaja.

17 Q. And do you have a photo for this one?

18 A. I do, courtesy of Mr. Bajgora again. It's not a site I visited.

19 In the database, once again, it's in colour and much clearer, but what

20 you're looking at is the gutted interior. The roof is missing. The

21 interior is charred. And what you're looking at, although it's hard to

22 tell from this, is the mihrab wall, which is the wall facing Mecca with

23 the prayer niche.

24 Q. And the informant information about this one indicated that the

25 damage occurred before the NATO bombing started.

Page 5479

1 A. Yes, and that is not only from Mr. Bajgora, but in this case it's

2 corroborated by a first-person report from Reuters which had a

3 correspondent in the village in early March of 1999.

4 MR. HANNIS: And can we go to the third page of this exhibit for

5 that media report.

6 Q. And is that the one you're referring to?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: Next, please show Exhibit P1793.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just hold on while I observe this one.

11 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: The indications in this report, Mr. Riedlmayer, are

13 that there may have been a KLA cell in the village in question. Now, you

14 told us earlier about damage that might be consistent with the firing of

15 projectiles in the course of conflict.

16 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And the building being caught up in that.

18 THE WITNESS: Right.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, there are two sources of damage referred to

20 here. There's projectile damage as well as fire damage.

21 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: So what would we make of such evidence, as there

23 is, about projectile damage?

24 THE WITNESS: Well, the projectile damage, all I can tell you

25 about is that there are signs of it on the photo. You can see some

Page 5480

1 impacts. Clearly, the damage to the mosque was in two stages. The news

2 report doesn't mention that at the time the reporter was there it had been

3 burned out yet, and so clearly, from the photographs, at some point

4 subsequent to that it was burnt.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: So the newspaper report is important in identifying

6 the stages in which damage may have occurred here.

7 THE WITNESS: Exactly.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Although, the statement on the first page is

9 completely burned out -- "shot up at close range, and burned by Serb

10 forces March 10, 1999" --


12 JUDGE BONOMY: -- which is not entirely accurate now that we look

13 at the --

14 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I don't know at what point

15 subsequent to the reporter's visit the fire may have happened.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you.

17 MR. HANNIS: May I have just a moment, Your Honour.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. HANNIS: Again, Your Honour, that's one we would ask you to

20 read in conjunction with the other evidence. We have had a witness

21 testify, Mr. Loku, about Ivaja.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MR. HANNIS: Now, I think I was asking for Exhibit P1793. Yes.

24 Q. Do you see that photo on your screen, Mr. Riedlmayer?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5481

1 Q. What's that a picture of?

2 A. That's a mosque in the village of Brestovac; it's also in Orahovac

3 municipality.

4 Q. What's the nature of this damage?

5 A. Well, first of all, you can see the minaret has been decapitated.

6 You can also see that the mosque no longer has a roof. You can also see

7 marks of fire. And on a better photo - I have the original print - you

8 can see through the door into the interior, which is a huge pile of

9 rubble. The exterior walls are also badly cracked and the timbers are

10 burned. So I think the building is essentially unsalvageable.

11 Q. Could we go to Exhibit P1775 in your database entry. How would

12 this be classified.

13 A. I classify it as "almost destroyed," meaning an unsalvageable

14 building but with identifiable elements still standing above ground.

15 Q. And did you have a pre-war photograph of this mosque?

16 A. Unfortunately, I did not. I don't think there's any arguing that

17 it wasn't a mosque.

18 Q. The source of the information about the date and the cause of the

19 damage?

20 A. It's, again, Mr. Bajgora and the IMG database.

21 Q. All right. Thank you.

22 MR. HANNIS: If we could go now to Exhibit P1794.

23 Q. I believe we're still in Orahovac municipality.

24 A. We are, yes.

25 Q. What is this, and where is this?

Page 5482

1 A. This is a picture of the mosque at Velika Krusa, or Krusha e Madhe

2 in Albanian.

3 Q. And any opinion about the nature of how this damage occurred, and

4 what's missing?

5 A. To the left you see the entrance, and to the right you can see

6 the remains of the minaret. And, once again, there are signs that this

7 was caused by a massive explosion. Among other things, you can see the

8 cracks in the exterior wall and damage to the roof and to the dome from

9 falling masonry.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. HANNIS: Let's move to Exhibit P1776.

12 Q. And this one described as heavily damaged because?

13 A. Because there was extensive damage to the interior, for which I

14 also had photos, and to the roof and to the external wall. It was not

15 merely a question of the minaret being amputated; the building itself was

16 compromised.

17 MR. HANNIS: Could we scroll to the bottom half of this page.

18 Q. And can you tell us what the bottom photo is?

19 A. The bottom is a view of the interior. Again, in the database in

20 colour, you can see details that are not immediately evident from the

21 black and white copy.

22 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page regarding media reports.

23 Q. And, again, this is not one site that you visited personally?

24 A. No. It's not a site I visited personally.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 5483

1 MR. HANNIS: Next Exhibit P1802, please.


3 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, as far as the cause of this damage is

5 concerned, is there also other evidence?

6 THE WITNESS: I'm -- sorry.

7 MR. HANNIS: The cause of the damage, Your Honour?

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. You've got an informant here, which is a

9 human rights group.

10 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: But has there been a witness on this one?

12 MR. HANNIS: On this mosque, I believe we have had testimony. And

13 I'm checking for a minute to get that reference. But as to the -- was

14 your question as to the nature of how the damaged was caused?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: No. My question is to the informant's statement;

16 the bit that's highlighted, which is presumably the bit that you consider

17 to be the most relevant, actually attributes the damage to Serb soldiers

18 with benzine, the mosque. Now, the source of that is an Albanian human

19 rights group.

20 MR. HANNIS: May I ask the witness a question about that.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, my question to you, first of all, was whether

22 there are other witnesses dealing with this.

23 MR. HANNIS: I believe we had a witness talking about the mosque

24 in Velika Krusa, but I'm checking the record to confirm that.

25 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, as far as this informant's statement, there's a

Page 5484

1 portion here that's bolded. Do you know who put that portion in bold

2 lettering?

3 A. I did. Simply because it's the only part that refers to the

4 mosque directly. If you scroll further down, you can also see a media

5 account from the German Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, which has a

6 description of the damage as of June 19th. So that gives you a date

7 antequam before the damage happened. It's the next page down.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: It doesn't, on the face of it, attribute the damage

9 to anyone in particular, though, does it?


11 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any further information on that at the

12 moment, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: If we could go then to Exhibit P1802.

15 Q. Do you know what that is? Where it is?

16 A. It is a mosque in Mitrovica, in the north of Kosovo. It's the

17 Ibar mosque. It's the one next to the famous bridge, across the Ibar

18 river, which figures in this report as the scene of repeated conflicts.

19 Q. And do you know when this photograph was taken?

20 A. This, I believe, was one of our photos from Mr. Virmica, taken in

21 1997.

22 MR. HANNIS: Could we then go to Exhibit P -- Well, I'm sorry, is

23 there a second page for this? Yes. Could we go to the second page for

24 this exhibit.

25 Q. And what's that?

Page 5485

1 A. That is the site of the Ibar mosque, in the summer of 1999.

2 Q. I guess you would classify that one as completely destroyed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us how you were able to determine that this is the

5 site of the mosque that was in the previous photograph?

6 A. Because, in addition to the previous photograph, I also had other

7 pre-war photographs - one of which is included in the database page you're

8 about to play - and because I had a pre-war site plan that was published

9 in the 1980s, showing its location immediately next to the bridge.

10 Q. Okay. And is the bridge in this photograph?

11 A. The bridge is to the right.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. HANNIS: Could we go then to Exhibit P1780. And scroll to the

14 bottom half, please. And all the way.

15 Q. And you saw this one yourself?

16 A. Actually, I visited Mitrovica, in March of 2001, and saw the site.

17 The site is pretty much as shown on the photograph from the summer of

18 1999; not much changed.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. HANNIS: Next page of this exhibit.

21 THE WITNESS: There's media accounts at the very end.

22 MR. HANNIS: Okay, okay. One more page then. I'm sorry. All

23 right. Now, if we could go --

24 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: The suggestion here is that there may have been

Page 5486

1 bomb damage. Do you rule that out?

2 THE WITNESS: It's hard to tell much of anything from a bulldozed

3 site, so I draw no conclusions. I merely presented whatever information I

4 could find. The suggestion here comes from Mr. Oliver Ivanovic, who is a

5 Serb leader from northern Mitrovica. He claims one thing. The other

6 media accounts simply describe what happened. The residents in --

7 according to one account, that the mosque had been looted, burned, and

8 bulldozed. So I don't know. I mean, all I can tell you is what I saw.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


11 Q. When you went in 2001, although that was some time after the

12 destruction reportedly occurred, did you see any surrounding damage that

13 would be consistent or inconsistent with bombing from above?

14 A. No. The buildings across the street were fine, and certainly the

15 bridge right next to it had not been hit by anything.

16 Q. Thank you. I have no more questions --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: The suggestion is that the police headquarters were

18 the target for the bombing.

19 THE WITNESS: The police headquarters are at some distance down

20 the street.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And were they struck?

22 THE WITNESS: They were struck.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: How far away were they?

24 THE WITNESS: I would say more than a hundred metres.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 5487

1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

2 Next, Exhibit P1798, please.

3 Q. Tell us about this picture.

4 A. This is an interior photo of the mosque at Vlastica, which is in

5 south-eastern Kosovo, and there's not a lot to say about it. There's

6 clearly been an intense fire. You can see that even the window-frame has

7 been charred and ...

8 Q. Okay. Let's move, then, to your database page, P1785. Do you

9 recall -- did you see this one yourself?

10 A. This is not a village we visited ourselves.

11 Q. Okay. And is this the only photograph you had of this site?

12 A. Well, this is one of the instances where this is the only

13 photograph we had. But I was able to examine other photographs of which

14 they did not -- were not able to give me copies, so I have a somewhat

15 broader view of the building, which is where I concluded that it was

16 heavily damaged.

17 Q. What was the nature of that additional damage that led you to

18 evaluate it as heavily damaged?

19 A. Well, first of all, there was damage to the roof. The fire

20 extended all the way into the minaret, and basically all the combustible

21 elements in the building had been destroyed. And while it was a modern

22 building, it will probably have to be knocked down before it can be

23 re-built.

24 Q. Okay.

25 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the bottom half of the page, please.

Page 5488

1 Q. And the source for this information was the IMG database and

2 Mr. Bajgora?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: The other photographs you're referring to came from

5 whom?

6 THE WITNESS: Well, this was at the offices of the Islamic

7 community, Mr. Bajgora again. But there were some photographs he was able

8 to give us copies; others, not.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the third page of this for the media

11 account.

12 Q. And that's all the information you have concerning that site?

13 A. Well, it's from a very long on-site report from Washington Post

14 reporter David Finkel published in late 1999, and he just mentions having

15 passed by the burned-out mosque. But not a lot of detail.

16 Q. All right. Thank you.

17 MR. HANNIS: Next, Exhibit P1803, please.

18 Q. What's this a picture of?

19 A. This is a site I personally visited. It's the mosque in

20 Landovica, which is right next to the highway heading north out of Prizren

21 towards Djakovica. And what you're looking at is the -- really looking

22 from the verge of the highway, a piece of the minaret which has tumbled

23 down. You will see additional pictures on the database entry which show

24 great holes in the dome and more pieces of the minaret lying on top of the

25 roof.

Page 5489

1 MR. HANNIS: Let's move, then, to Exhibit P1777.

2 Q. How did you describe the damage of this one?

3 A. Again, we called this heavily damaged, mainly because the main

4 dome itself had been so heavily impacted that it was in danger of

5 collapse.

6 Q. Okay.

7 MR. HANNIS: And can we scroll down to the bottom half of the

8 page.

9 Q. And can you tell us something about those two photographs.

10 MR. HANNIS: If we could scroll up slightly to show both

11 photographs.

12 THE WITNESS: Here you see the hole in the cracks of the dome and

13 the pieces of the minaret lying on top of the roof and an interior view

14 looking out at the dome, with a great gap in it.


16 Q. Okay. All right.

17 MR. HANNIS: If we could go next to Exhibit P1795.

18 Q. What's shown here?

19 A. This is the library of Hadum Sulejman Efendi, an Islamic endowment

20 library, a waqf library, in Djakovica town, north of Prizren. What you're

21 looking at is the rear of the building. The little niches in the walls

22 were where the books used to be. You can see evidence of fire, charred

23 wood, and soot marks on the interior. And at some points subsequent to

24 the burning, the minaret of the adjacent mosque, which you can see the

25 dark spot on the right of the photo, was decapitated by a projectile and

Page 5490

1 fell on the back of the building, collapsing the rear half of it.

2 Q. Before we move on, I think you described this as an endowment

3 library or some other kind of library. I didn't catch that word.

4 A. It's an Islamic endowment library. The technical word is "waqf,"

5 w-a-q-f. As a pious deed, people give money for educational and cultural

6 purposes and establish these endowments. This library was originally

7 established in the 16th century by an endowment -- by a local gentleman

8 named Hadum Sulejman Efendi, and then the library itself, the building,

9 was re-built in the 18th century. It housed the very important collection

10 of manuscripts and rare books, as well as the archives of the Islamic

11 community.

12 Q. And were those books damaged in the process?

13 A. They were a complete loss.

14 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to Exhibit P1783.

15 Q. Can you tell us about this one, then.

16 A. Okay, well --

17 Q. Classified as heavily damaged?

18 A. Heavily damaged. In fact, it was eventually decided that it

19 couldn't be restored and was knocked down.

20 MR. HANNIS: Could we scroll to the bottom of this page.

21 Q. And did you see this one yourself?

22 A. I did. I actually went into the ruins to look to see what had

23 actually collapsed. I was wondering exactly how it happened, and I found

24 identifiable remnants of the top of the minaret that had smashed the rear

25 of the building. I found pieces of the minaret's balcony that were easily

Page 5491

1 identifiable, so I could tell why the rear of the building had

2 collapsed.

3 MR. HANNIS: If we go to the next page of this indict -- of this

4 exhibit.

5 THE WITNESS: So at the left is a photo I took of the charred

6 front and the entrance of the library.


8 Q. Okay.

9 A. And below you can find more information. I interviewed a

10 gentleman called Xhahit Boshi [phoen], who lives in Gjakova, who claims to

11 have seen it, so he was there. And I also had an interview with Professor

12 Nehad Krasniqi, who was the keeper of rare books and manuscripts at the

13 national and university library in Pristina and who was familiar with the

14 contents of the library. So he gave me a statement about what was in the

15 library before it was burned.

16 Q. All right.

17 MR. HANNIS: Next, please, Exhibit P17 --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

19 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Where would this fit into the indictment?

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this is described in -- if I can get

22 this reference. In paragraph 72(h)(i), "On March 24th, 1999, the old

23 mosque in the historic quarter, which included the bazaar, the Hadum

24 mosque and the adjoining library, were among several cultural sites

25 substantially or totally destroyed." This is in the deportation

Page 5492

1 paragraph, 72, but we would argue that the destruction of these are part

2 of the systematic campaign of terror to drive the Kosovo Albanians out.

3 So even though it's not listed specifically in paragraph 77 as a religious

4 site or a mosque that's destroyed, it's part of the historic quarter.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: 72(h)(i) --

6 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and about halfway down --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. So -- and yet the destruction wasn't until

8 May, it would appear --

9 THE WITNESS: No, sir. The --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Of the mosque, rather.

11 THE WITNESS: The destruction was at the end of March, when it was

12 presumably burned. It wasn't until May that the top of the minaret was

13 shot off and fell on the back of it. By that time, I assume, it was a

14 gutted building due to the fire.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: The mosque was actually attached to the library,

16 was it?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. You can see it on the next picture, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And the damage, in May, was exclusively to the

20 mosque, rather than to the library, was it?

21 THE WITNESS: Well, the damage in May was to the minaret. The

22 mosque was also set on fire in March --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. But did the falling of the

24 minaret damage the library in any way?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's what sheered off the back of the

Page 5493

1 building, sir.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't have a clear picture of this, Mr. Hannis,

3 but it's probably me.

4 MR. HANNIS: Not necessarily, Your Honour.

5 Q. So, initially, in March your information is that the library and

6 the mosque were both set on fire?

7 A. Yes. If you move on to the next exhibit --

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. -- it may become clear, perhaps.

10 MR. HANNIS: Let's go to Exhibit P1796, please.

11 Q. What are we seeing here?

12 A. Just to orient you, what you're looking at is part of the Hadum

13 mosque complex. So it consisted of the mosque, which is the dome building

14 that you see with the arcade at the centre rear of the picture. Right

15 next to it is the front of the library which is still standing. The other

16 photo you saw was from the rear.

17 Q. So where in this photograph is the library?

18 A. Just to the right of the mosque. You can see it. It has a little

19 finial on top of the tower roof.

20 Q. Okay. You're pointing to the upper right of the photograph?

21 A. Right. Then at the left, the big pile of rubble was an Islamic

22 Koran readers school, which also housed the offices of the local Islamic

23 community, which faced the mosque and the library. And according to,

24 certainly, the evidence of intense fire that I saw, the destruction at

25 ground level was from fire. Then between the mosque and the library stood

Page 5494

1 the minaret. It was structurally attached to the mosque and towered over

2 both the mosque and the minaret. In the database, I have pre-war photos

3 that may make it clearer.

4 And the top of the minaret, just below the balcony, had been

5 sheered off. And in the minaret, below the balcony, there were a series

6 of impact holes, approximately a foot across. So, clearly, someone had

7 been taking pock shots at the minaret, until the top came off. When the

8 top did come off, it hit the back of the library building and sheered it

9 off. And, according to informants, that happened two months after the

10 initial fire. So I don't know if that makes the sequence a little

11 clearer.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: It does, yes.


14 Q. And this photograph, the minaret is already knocked down?

15 A. Well, the minaret wasn't entirely knocked down, just about the top

16 third of it.

17 Q. And if it were still standing, where would you see it in this

18 photograph?

19 A. You would be seeing it, essentially -- you see the bottom of it.

20 It's in between the library and the mosque.

21 Q. Okay. Oh, all right. I do -- just to the right of the pillar

22 that goes all the way up in the photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the fire in the library, is that what damages the books and

25 the contents of the library?

Page 5495

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In March?

3 A. In March.

4 Q. And the fire in the mosque occurred at the same time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. I think I understand better now, too.

7 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Could any books be salvaged; manuscripts or

8 books --


10 JUDGE CHOWHAN: -- which you would have seen in a burned shape?

11 THE WITNESS: No. It was completely burned out and filled with

12 rubble.

13 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.


15 Q. Do you have any photographs of that?

16 A. Well, the photograph you just showed was of the rubble-filled

17 interior of the library.

18 Q. Okay. All right.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Hannis, is that a suitable time to

20 interrupt you?

21 MR. HANNIS: It is, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, we'll have to break, Mr. Riedlmayer. So if

23 you could go with the usher. We'll see you in about half an hour.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 5496

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And we will resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

7 Could we next have Exhibit P1782.

8 Q. And this will be the database entry referring to the mosque. And

9 was this -- this was one of the protected buildings in Kosovo; yes?

10 A. It's one of the more significant buildings in Kosovo, yes. It was

11 under legal protection.

12 Q. And you had some additional photographs of this, other than the

13 one that we just looked at?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 MR. HANNIS: Can we scroll down to the bottom half.

16 Q. And we'll have you tell us about those.

17 A. Okay. The one on top you can see the layout a little more

18 clearly. The mosque is at the left; the building with the pyramid-shaped

19 tile roof on the right is the library. And you see there the decapitated

20 minaret.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. And below is another close-up of the charred portico.

23 MR. HANNIS: Could we scroll to the bottom of this page.

24 Q. All right. And the source of this information about when and how

25 this came to be damaged.

Page 5497

1 A. The source of the information came from a number of sources.

2 Q. The next page, please.

3 A. Well, it's not listed here on the informants' statements,

4 unfortunately. I don't know how that happened. But anyway, first of all,

5 it was widely reported in the news that the mosque had been damaged on

6 that particular day. And we also talked to the local Islamic community,

7 who confirmed what happened. Most of what we did was constate the actual

8 damage. I don't think the date of damage of the actual mosque itself is

9 in dispute. What seems to be in some dispute, according to what happened

10 in cross-examination in the Milosevic case, is the cause of the damage.

11 Now, according to informants we did speak to, and I'm sorry that

12 the statement doesn't seem to be in this copy, the sequence was that on

13 the first night of the NATO bombing, after the Yugoslav army base in town

14 was hit by missiles, about an hour or two later, groups of Serb military

15 and civilians apparently converged on the bazaar and started setting fire

16 to the mosque and to the shops. This is what the local Islamic community

17 and various other people told us at the time.

18 According to accounts in the Belgrade press, and according to the

19 White Book issued by the Yugoslav government, they claim that the mosque

20 was hit by NATO bombs. We did not see any signs of blast damage; what we

21 did see was extensive signs of fire damage. The main damage to masonry

22 was the toppling of the minaret, and on the minaret itself, we could see

23 the impact of projectiles at various levels and then the top sheered off

24 and landed on the back of the -- of the mosque library.

25 On the picture you see on the screen right now, on the right is a

Page 5498

1 pre-war photo which shows the minaret complete. It also shows the

2 extended portico. The original portico had been extended in the 18th and

3 19th century to cover most of the courtyard to allow for overflow

4 congregations, and that structure was built of wood. So when the mosque

5 was set fire to, all of that burned.

6 And over the entrance of the mosque, above the massive wooden

7 doors, there was a semicircular lunette, an opening, which, according to

8 the imam of the mosque we talked to, had been a source of complaint among

9 the elderly congregants who complained that in cold weather a draft came

10 in and so they'd covered it with a piece of wood. Apparently that's what

11 saved the interior of the mosque from being burned. According, again, to

12 the imam we talked to, the piece of wood had been struck by an incendiary

13 projectile they tried to fire into the mosque. We could see the burnt

14 piece of wood - and I have photographs of it - but the main prayer hall

15 was not affected; however, the entire extended front area had been burned

16 down.

17 Q. You used the word "lunette" to describe that.

18 A. Yes, it's just a semicircular opening above the main door.

19 Q. How do you spell that?

20 A. L-u-n-e-t-t-e; it's a French word.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Riedlmayer, Xhahit Boshi, whom you referred to

22 earlier, is he the imam you're talking about?

23 THE WITNESS: Let's see. Yes, he is one of the people we talked

24 to at the mosque.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: In your last statement, you say, "according to the

Page 5499

1 imam of the mosque we talked to ..."

2 THE WITNESS: I believe he is the imam we talked to, but I would

3 have to consult my notes.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: You say that both the Belgrade press and the White

5 Book that you have referred to claimed bomb damage.


7 JUDGE BONOMY: At what date did they claim that the bombing had

8 taken place?

9 THE WITNESS: The first night of the bombing, which would have

10 been the night of the 24th/25th of March, 1999.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Not the May date when the damage was done to the

12 minaret.

13 THE WITNESS: No. The May date is subsequent. And, again, local

14 people told us that the top of the minaret was taken down in early May

15 by ...

16 JUDGE BONOMY: When you say "local people," are you referring,

17 again, to the --

18 THE WITNESS: To the Islamic community of Gjakova.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

21 Could we go to the next page of this exhibit regarding the media

22 accounts.

23 Q. And, again, there was a reference to a satellite photo on a web

24 site. Did you get a chance to look at that photograph regarding the

25 bazaar being burned?

Page 5500

1 A. Yes. And that one, I believe, was submitted in evidence in the

2 Milosevic trial.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Following the allegation that the NATO bombing had destroyed the

5 mosque and the historic centre of Gjakova around it, NATO released the

6 satellite photo showing the burning of the bazaar in progress. And it's a

7 quite detailed satellite photograph. I don't know if you have it

8 available, but it shows the mosque still standing, a plume of smoke coming

9 up from the library, and on the street immediately adjacent to the mosque,

10 for a distance of several city blocks, all the shops have had their roofs

11 burned off. And so you see little empty niches, you know, for several

12 hundred metres' length. And to either side, the densely built-up urban

13 neighbourhood, there's no sign of any kind of scattered damage which you

14 would expect in any kind of aerial bombing.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. HANNIS: Could we next go to Exhibit P --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have this photograph, Mr. Hannis?

18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have a photograph which is the one I

19 think he's talking about, but I won't know until we come to it in the

20 chronology.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 MR. HANNIS: Exhibit P1797.

23 Q. Tell us what this shows.

24 A. This shows this street immediately adjacent to the mosque where

25 you have these long rows of bazaar shops with the dividing walls perfectly

Page 5501

1 intact but interiors completely burned out. Again, you would expect that

2 if there had been aerial bombing there would be blast effects and these

3 rather insubstantial brick walls dividing the buildings would have been

4 affected. I believe you also have a pre-war shot which shows you what

5 these buildings were like. The entire medieval bazaar district was a

6 protected area. Under legislation, it was a historic site.

7 MR. HANNIS: If we go to the next page of this exhibit.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is a photograph taken in January of 1999,

9 so just two months previously, of the bazaar, same street. You can see

10 there buildings with tile roofs and brick dividing walls and then the

11 structure itself made of timber and plaster.


13 Q. And where would the mosque be in this photograph?

14 A. It would be off to the right and behind the shops.

15 Q. Thank you. All right.

16 MR. HANNIS: Exhibit 17 -- P1781.

17 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, here you have it.


19 Q. All right.

20 A. So this is the entry for the old market surrounding the mosque.

21 MR. HANNIS: Could we scroll to the bottom of the page.

22 Q. And we've seen the pre-war photograph at the top. The photograph

23 at the bottom of that page, have we seen that one?

24 A. Yes, the photograph at the bottom - again, you would see it much

25 better in the original colour - shows flames shooting out through the

Page 5502

1 shops. It was, allegedly, taken by a local Djakovica resident, while the

2 market was being burned. It was distributed by international news

3 agencies in June of 1999, and that's how I got a copy.

4 MR. HANNIS: Next page of this exhibit, please.

5 THE WITNESS: And here you have, at the left, is a photo showing

6 residents, who have just come back after the war, trying to clear out

7 salvageable items from the burned-out shops. And at the right is a view

8 from the mosque - actually taken from the minaret of the mosque. You can

9 see the shadow of the photographer - of the street adjacent to the mosque

10 with the bazaar shops. That appeared in a book on heritage of the

11 Balkans.

12 MR. HANNIS: Could we scroll to the bottom of this page.

13 THE WITNESS: Okay. At the left you have another informant

14 statement from Mr. Xhahit Boshi. And he claimed that on the first night

15 of the NATO bombing, he heard, on the radio, that the centre of Pristina

16 and Djakovica had been bombed by NATO. Since he was a resident of

17 Djakovica himself, he was wondering what was going on. And then at some

18 time later, he heard cars coming and the beginning of the burning.


20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. HANNIS: If we could go next to Exhibit P1789.

22 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, this is your report, but included within this

23 exhibit are some photographs, I think the first ten pages. So I'd like to

24 show you and ask you to discuss those, if you could. They may not be in

25 your hardcopy.

Page 5503

1 MR. HANNIS: But if we could have the first page of Exhibit 1789

2 on the screen. Yes.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm told there's a technical problem, but is that

5 0 -- K0218764?

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's Exhibit D000-0747, which is listed

7 as being 89 pages in e-court.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. But the first page that you're after, what's

9 the particular number of it?

10 MR. HANNIS: It's K0218749.


12 MR. HANNIS: 49.


14 MR. HANNIS: Yeah. It's a photograph. I have a hardcopy;

15 perhaps we can put it on the ELMO and have the witness describe.

16 Q. Do you recognise that, Mr. Riedlmayer?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What's this a picture of?

19 A. It's a photograph I took inside the mosque, in a village called

20 Crnojevo, or Caralleve [phoen] in Albanian. It's on road heading south,

21 from Prizren towards Brizrem, just where the road enters the mountains.

22 And the mosque had had some projectile impacts, and the minaret had been

23 damaged. So we went to check it out. We went inside and found the

24 interior vandalized, partially burned. And the entire floor of the mosque

25 was covered, not only with rubble and rubbish, but with torn up Islamic

Page 5504

1 books and scriptures. There were many empty book covers, whose interior

2 had been torn out, and some of the pages had been defecated on. You see

3 here part of it. I have other photographs showing it. I collected all

4 the pieces of paper that I could. And, out of an interest, later on in

5 the evening, I tried to sort it out and found the remains of more than 20

6 different books and manuscripts; all religious books, which had been

7 ripped to shreds and then defaced.

8 Q. And let me show you next, skipping one page in the sequence, to

9 K0218751.

10 MR. HANNIS: Oh, it would be page 3 then of the e-court version.

11 Q. We may have it now on your screen.

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. Do you recognise that?

14 A. Yes. Those are the remains of a Serbian Orthodox monastery church

15 in Dolac. Dolac is in Klina municipality in northern Kosovo,

16 north-western Kosovo. And we were investigating reports that it had been

17 blown up, after the war, by returning Albanians; and we found this. It

18 was an old church with a tile roof, and clearly an explosive had been

19 placed inside, blowing out the walls. And the heavy slate roof - I'm

20 sorry, not tile roof - had literally crushed what remained of the

21 building.

22 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next photograph, please, next

23 page.

24 Q. How about this one?

25 A. Okay. This is very near to the previous picture. It's a village

Page 5505

1 called Drsnik, that's D-r-s-n-i-k. It is also in the municipality of

2 Klina. And we went to visit it, because in the Yugoslav government White

3 Book, it was claimed as one of the Orthodox churches which had allegedly

4 been hit by NATO bombs. We found that the church, in fact, had an intact

5 roof and an intact door. But someone had gone inside and set fires and,

6 subsequently, had scrawled the letters UCK, U-C-K, which is KLA in

7 Albanian, over the door. And inside we found more graffiti and damage

8 from the small fire that had been set inside. But it's clearly not damage

9 that had been done from the air. And since, according to media reports,

10 first-hand media reports, the village had been continuously occupied by

11 its Serb inhabitants until the middle of June 1999, it is unlikely that

12 this happened until after they left; namely, in the summer.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: Next, can we go to page 9 of this exhibit.

15 Q. Can you tell us what this is a photo of.

16 A. This is a photograph taken in the Kosovo capital of Pristina by a

17 Reuters photographer, Oleg Popov. I purchased this from the writer's news

18 agency. The photograph shows the historical archive of the Islamic

19 community. Burning in the background is the Emperor's mosque in Pristina.

20 It was taken, I believe, on the 15th of June, just six hours before the

21 arrival of the first British KFOR troops in Pristina. According to news

22 accounts which were simultaneous to the taking of this picture, the

23 burning was done by a group of Serbian police who rushed into the

24 building, and then after they emerged the building burst into flames.

25 Q. In connection with your report, did you prepare some maps to

Page 5506

1 graphically show the locations of the damaged sites that you visited and

2 took information about?

3 A. Yes, we did.

4 MR. HANNIS: I believe it's at e-court page 28 of this exhibit.

5 Q. This is the first one I'd like you to explain for us. And, I'm

6 sorry, this is black and white, but I have colour copy that we could hand

7 you.

8 MR. HANNIS: And I think I have enough to give one to the Bench

9 and one to the Defence -- oh, I'm sorry, I only have two. Perhaps we can

10 put it on the ELMO.

11 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, could you explain to us what's depicted here.

12 A. What we are looking at is the map showing all the damaged sites

13 that we either visited or documented in Kosovo. The different colours

14 refer to the different types of damage -- I'm sorry, the different

15 monuments of different categories.

16 What you have at the bottom, the coloured dots indicate -- in the

17 case of the yellow dots, are civil monuments, meaning non-religious

18 monuments, historic architecture; the red dots indicate Islamic sites; the

19 blue dots are Catholic monuments; and the purple dots are Serbian Orthodox

20 monuments. The size of the dot indicates the number of monuments damaged

21 in a given municipality, so some places, such as Pec in north-western

22 Kosovo, Djakovica, or Vucitrn, have larger dots than some of the villages

23 where only one or two buildings were documented.

24 MR. HANNIS: If we could go next to page 29.

25 Q. We have another hard copy for you. It's another map in your

Page 5507

1 report. What's this intended to show?

2 A. This is a mapping of the Serbian Orthodox monuments that were

3 damaged in the period between June and October of 1999, after the end of

4 the conflict. We have no mapping of anything that happened before that

5 because we have found no convincing evidence that any Orthodox monuments

6 were damaged before the end of the war.

7 Again, you can see there are clusters of them in various places,

8 and in some places the dots are larger, indicating multiple monuments that

9 were hit.

10 MR. HANNIS: The next page, page 30 of this exhibit.

11 Q. We have one more hard copy for you. I think this relates to the

12 Islamic sites.

13 A. This represents the Islamic religious architecture that was either

14 destroyed or damaged, and again you see large dots in places like

15 Djakovica or Pec and smaller dots spread throughout. Would you like me to

16 comment more on it?

17 Q. Yes, please.

18 A. Okay. Well, the first thing you can see is that the damage isn't

19 localised; it extends throughout much of Kosovo. The areas where you

20 don't see any dots indicate areas, for example, here, in the south, which

21 has a predominantly ethnic Serb population; but, very interestingly, also,

22 this southern-most tip of Kosovo, the Goran region, which is almost a

23 hundred per cent Muslim but the Muslims living there are not Albanians,

24 they are Slavic Muslims, the Gorans, and they had generally good relations

25 with the Belgrade government.

Page 5508

1 Similarly, in the area between Prizren, Djakovica, and Suva Reka

2 here, virtually every village mosque that we were aware of had been

3 damaged or destroyed, with one single exception. There is a village

4 called Mamusha, M-a-m-u-s-h-a, just north of Prizren which is

5 predominantly ethnic Turkish and there the mosque was intact. The

6 villages surrounding it were ethnic Albanian and the mosques had been

7 burned down in every one of them.

8 Q. Thank you. Next, I would like to show you Exhibit 1808. Did you

9 prepare a chart to show the relationship between the damages to the

10 religious sites of the three different ethnic communities or religious

11 communities?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. I think this is in colour in e-court and should be on your screen

14 shortly.

15 A. Oh, yes.

16 Q. Can you explain this for us.

17 A. Okay. Basically, the colours represent the various communities.

18 Red is the Catholic community; yellow is Orthodox; and blue is Islamic

19 buildings. And what you see here is a series showing the degree of

20 damage. Obviously, the largest number of buildings are those which

21 suffered relatively light damage, and to the right is increasing degrees

22 of damage or destruction. What strikes one about the chart, in general,

23 though, is the disproportionately large number of Islamic monuments that

24 have suffered destruction or damage.

25 Q. I see the yellow block for Serb Orthodox, that there are, what, 13

Page 5509

1 buildings that were totally destroyed and seven almost destroyed.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you have information about when that damage occurred?

4 A. Yes. Both from our own survey and from information received from

5 the Serbian Orthodox church, this destruction happened almost entirely in

6 the summer of 1999, between the end of the war in mid-June and our arrival

7 there in October. We did not include any damage subsequent to October.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you.

9 MR. HANNIS: May I have just a moment, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Could we, Mr. Hannis, take in-court pictures of

11 pages 28, 29, and 30 of Exhibit 1789, since the electronic version's not

12 in colour?

13 MR. HANNIS: I believe we can get colour versions into e-court.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Of these three, rather than just take pictures of

15 them?

16 MR. HANNIS: We can do either, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --

18 MR. HANNIS: We could substitute colour versions.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm told the best way is, in fact, if you put

21 them on e-court, but it would be helpful to have these colour versions.

22 MR. HANNIS: We will do that, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 MR. HANNIS: And if I may have a moment to consult.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 5510


2 Q. There is one other exhibit I wanted to address with you,

3 Mr. Riedlmayer. It's Exhibit P1550, 1-5-5-0. These are some additional

4 entries from your database, but I think they pertain to -- other than

5 Islamic monuments, Serbian Orthodox and Roman Catholic. If you could tell

6 us a little bit about each of these.

7 A. This is the complex of the patriarchate at Pec. It's the seat of

8 the Serbian Orthodox patriarchate and one of the most important buildings

9 in Kosovo as far as Orthodox religious heritage is concerned.

10 MR. HANNIS: Could we scroll to the bottom of this page.

11 Q. And how was it you came to investigate this site?

12 A. There had been allegations in the Yugoslav government White Book

13 that the monastery had been damaged by NATO bombing, and we visited the

14 site. Also, a conservator, Tody Cezar, who is an expert in mural

15 paintings, did an investigation of the interiors. Furthermore, the

16 Italian government's institute for restoration, the Institute di

17 Rettorato, sent an expert team in 2000/2001 to examine the monument and

18 none of them found any sign of damage, other than from rising damp and

19 long-deferred maintenance.

20 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page of this exhibit, and the

21 next page, please.

22 Q. And that's simply your bibliography concerning that site.

23 A. Right.

24 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page.

25 Q. Tell us, this is Gracanica.

Page 5511

1 A. This is --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on. Did you, Mr. Riedlmayer, see

3 the patriarchate in Pec?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


7 Q. How about this one? Tell us.

8 A. Gracanica, there were also allegations that it had been damaged

9 during the NATO bombing campaign. We visited the Gracanica and once again

10 Today Cezar, the paintings conservator, was engaged by UNMIK's Department

11 of Culture to examine the murals and found no visible sign of any damage

12 either the murals or to the buildings.

13 MR. HANNIS: Could we scroll to the bottom all the way on this

14 page.

15 Q. Did you see this one?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And was what you saw consistent with the photograph here?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And no evidence of severe damage from NATO air-strikes?

20 A. No.

21 MR. HANNIS: If we could go three more pages to the next new

22 entry.

23 Q. And these are pre-war photos of that building?

24 A. Exactly.

25 MR. HANNIS: Next page, please. Bibliography. Next page,

Page 5512

1 please. And scroll to the bottom of the page.

2 Q. Tell us what this one is.

3 A. Okay. This is a close-up of part of the Kosovo battle-field

4 memorial. It was built in the 1950s under Tito and was also the site of

5 the famous 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo. It was also a place

6 we visited because there had been allegations that it had been directly

7 hit by the NATO bombing, and we found, in fact, that there had been no

8 damage that we could see, other than to -- unfortunately, again, the black

9 and white photo doesn't do it justice. But surrounding the actual

10 memorial there were these cut-off concrete tubes which contained

11 flood-lights, and the concrete tombs -- tubes had been decorated with

12 cast-iron decorations with a Serbian cross and the two dates of 1389 and

13 1989. And somebody had clearly gone around and pried these off. You

14 could still see the dirt shadows of where the cast-iron had been attached

15 to the concrete. But other than that, there was no visible damage on the

16 outside.

17 We were not allowed inside the monument, which has a stairwell and

18 a look-out on top. But the guards stationed at the door said that

19 somebody had set off an explosive inside the stair-well which had damaged

20 the stairs. But there was absolutely no sign anywhere at the memorial or

21 next to it of any damage from air-strikes.

22 MR. HANNIS: Next page, please.

23 Q. Okay. And that's --

24 A. That, again, is a poorly reproduced photo of the memorial itself

25 which I took.

Page 5513

1 MR. HANNIS: Next page. Sorry. Okay. And to the next page. I'm

2 sorry.

3 Q. What about this one, Mr. Riedlmayer?

4 A. This is our entry for the Franciscan Priory Church of St. Anthony

5 in Djakovica. It's one of the more notable examples of Roman Catholic

6 religious architecture in Kosovo. It was built near the end of the

7 Ottoman period, in the 19th century. And, again, we visited it because

8 there had allegations that it had been hit by the NATO bombing.

9 The church itself was very close, only a couple hundred metres

10 from a Yugoslav army base which had, in fact, been hit by the air-strike.

11 We could see the damaged barracks and other buildings. But the church

12 itself was in perfectly good condition; no damage done to it.

13 Adjacent to the church was the convent and the rectory, and there

14 we spoke to the parish priest who had been present when all these events

15 happened. He said that half an hour before the NATO air-strike actually

16 occurred, he and the nuns had been evicted from the building by the

17 Yugoslav military, who then took up residence both in the convent and in

18 the church while the air-strike was happening.

19 Q. And was there damage to the windows from the bombing of the

20 nearby --

21 A. Well, the windows of the rectory, he said, had been blown out by

22 the air blast, and we could see when we visited in October of 1999 that

23 the windows had been recently replaced. He also said that computers and

24 other equipment and furniture within the rectory had been looted.

25 MR. HANNIS: Could we go three pages on to the next item in this

Page 5514

1 exhibit. No, I'm sorry, the next page and the next one after, I think.

2 Q. The media accounts concerning the one you just told us about.

3 MR. HANNIS: Now could we go to the next page in this exhibit.

4 Q. What about this one?

5 A. This is in Pec, which is north of Djakovica and where you had a

6 very similar arrangement of the city quarry. You had the city's main

7 mosque surrounded by a bazaar district. And according to the Yugoslav

8 government's White Book, both the main mosque, known as the Barakli

9 [phoen] Xhamija, or the mosque of Mohamed the Conqueror, and the

10 surrounding bazaar had been hit by NATO air-strikes.

11 As far as the mosque was concerned, the damage we saw was

12 inconsistent with any aerial attack. The dome, the roof, the interior

13 had -- the dome and the roof were in good condition and the interior had

14 been burned out.

15 The surrounding bazaar had very similar kind of damage to that

16 which was seen in Djakovica.

17 If you could scroll down you could maybe see from --

18 MR. HANNIS: Could you scroll to the bottom.

19 THE WITNESS: Again, it's poorly reproduced, but you should have

20 the colour photos in your system. We have a pre-war photo taken just a

21 couple months, before the war, at the end of 1998; and in the same street

22 thereafter. What was remarkable about this, once again, is that over a

23 distance of several city blocks, all the shops fronting the street had

24 been destroyed and the rubble bulldozed into the back of the site. The

25 whole row of buildings, following behind, were completely intact, as were

Page 5515

1 buildings across the street. Again, this is not the kind of damage you

2 would expect from an aerial bomb; that bomb is that precise.


4 Q. At the bottom of this page I note, under the surveyor column,

5 there is a blank, but is this one you saw yourself?

6 A. This is one I saw there myself . And, I'm sorry, I must have

7 neglected to put that in.

8 Q. And who would have been the surveyor for this?

9 A. Me.

10 MR. HANNIS: And if we could go -- skip the next two pages and

11 come to the third page for the next site.

12 Q. Yes, can you tell us about this one.

13 A. This is the one we earlier saw a colour photo of; this is the

14 church at Dolac. You can note that it was a listed monument, meaning it

15 was under legal protection as cultural heritage of exceptional value. And

16 it was very badly destroyed.

17 Q. This is the one with the slate roof tiles, you told us about?

18 A. Exactly. And you can tell from the GPS coordinates that this is

19 site that we inspected personally.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]


22 Q. Now, with regard to your database, is there a particular type of

23 software that needs to be used to open it?

24 A. Yes, it's known as File Maker.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5516

1 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honours, I don't have any more questions

2 for the witness.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just a moment. Mr. Riedlmayer, or maybe Mr.

4 Hannis, one of you, where is the evidence of the -- what you've been

5 describing as "the false allegations of damage by bombing?" You've

6 described the White Book containing these allegations. Do we know if

7 that's an exhibit in the case? Where do we find these, Mr. Hannis?

8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't have it presently. I don't know

9 if it's currently on our list or not.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well is it part of your database, Mr. Riedlmayer?

11 THE WITNESS: It's not part of the database. I assumed that a

12 copy was in the Tribunal's library. It's not limited to cultural

13 heritage. It's a two-volume publication. If necessary, I can certainly

14 provide photocopies of the relevant pages.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we don't want to be shadow boxing, so there's

16 obviously got to be a target for these claims in the evidence.

17 Now, Mr. Hannis, I still am not entirely clear about the Exhibit

18 1789. Largely, but not exclusively, the material, which appears in your

19 65 ter summary, is a repetition of these various extracts which you've

20 been referring to. There's a great deal of duplication in the

21 presentation of this material, I think. And, indeed, we saw that also in

22 relation to the photographs.

23 When we were looking at Vucitrn, we have, according to the list

24 P1799, an enlarged photo of the shell of the Vucitrn municipality mosque.

25 And you then had other -- another exhibit dealing with the actual damage,

Page 5517

1 similar to what's on the screen at the moment. But we also discovered in

2 the photographs, photographs of damage to two other mosques in Vucitrn,

3 for which we don't, at the moment, I think in the course of the evidence,

4 have the similar documentation to what we see on the screen.

5 MR. HANNIS: I think that's correct, Your Honour. That photo

6 series included five photos of three different mosques. And the Exhibit

7 P1788 is only the extract from his survey about the old mosque.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

9 MR. HANNIS: I can ask the witness if, in his database, there is

10 information concerning the other two mosques from Vucitrn.

11 THE WITNESS: The database has entries for both of those.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

13 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, I'm not sure, because I have to

14 double-check and see, if that may be a couple of the unaccounted for ones

15 in Exhibit P1789, if you follow me. There are a couple of ERN ranges that

16 were --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, indeed. But I think that the Prosecution job

18 here is to identify the parts of the report that are relevant to the

19 indictment, and it may be you've actually done that in the course of this

20 presentation, but you left hanging this suggestion that the database would

21 also be an exhibit.

22 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, we had tried to do that because of

23 what we saw as the Court's view about us presenting extraneous evidence to

24 specific items in the indictment, and so rather than trying to present the

25 whole database regarding 548 sites, we tried to select those that are the

Page 5518

1 ones specifically mentioned. But initially, we had everything under his

2 report because I wanted to present them one at a time, and then we pulled

3 out and had separate exhibits that resulted in some duplication. But

4 unless the Court wanted the entire database, we didn't think that was --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there's been the odd comment by

6 Mr. Riedlmayer, such as, "There's a colour photograph somewhere." Whether

7 he was suggesting a print or something on his database wasn't clear to me,

8 but he was suggesting --

9 THE WITNESS: The latter, sir.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: -- some other material not identical to what's here

11 but a better example.

12 MR. HANNIS: I think he's saying that yes, that's correct, that

13 there are colour photos in his database.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Riedlmayer, when you said that, were you

15 referring to the database or were you referring to a separate print in

16 colour?

17 THE WITNESS: Well, I have both, but the database has all the

18 colour photos. And so if you are having software trouble, I do have a

19 self-executing version of the database on a disk which I can provide you

20 with tonight or tomorrow.

21 MR. HANNIS: Well, now that you've started your testimony, I don't

22 think it's appropriate for me to --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I don't know the answer to that, Mr. Hannis.

24 If you do have a problem, then you've been told that something can be

25 provided. And I don't think anybody's going to be concerned about the

Page 5519

1 witness assisting in that way. It's possibly better if he does it after

2 he's completed his evidence, but it won't be a problem for him to do that.

3 But finally, would you tell me how it is you think that the

4 database would assist us beyond the parts of the report that you've

5 extracted and presented in the course of this evidence?

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, only as -- in the sense that it's the

7 entire document, and I think, in time, when you look at a report and only

8 look at a portion of it, you may not be getting an accurate picture. But

9 maybe in this context what we have presented is all you need for our

10 purposes.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think our position is that if there is

12 other material in the database, it's for you to identify it and draw it to

13 the Trial Chamber's attention, rather than for us to go fishing through

14 such a large mass of material without the parties knowing what exactly it

15 is we are using it for.

16 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just to be clear, Mr. Riedlmayer, about one thing

18 in your report. When you were talking about your various sources - and

19 they're identified in section A2 of the report itself - you referred to

20 the IMG database, for example, and you're quite critical of its

21 reliability in some respects. How have you used that in the course of

22 your preparation of the report? Did you confine it to photographs or did

23 you actually make use of other information as well?

24 THE WITNESS: We essentially confined it to using the

25 photographs. The reason I'm critical of it is, as I explained, it was put

Page 5520

1 together by local teams in various municipalities, some of whom had --

2 seemed to have different standards as to what to include and how to

3 describe it. So --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is their database part of your database?

5 THE WITNESS: No. It's a separate one. For technical reasons, I

6 could not just snag the photographs out of their database and implant them

7 into mine.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: The KBI that you referred to, the Islamic community

9 of Kosovo, has their database or all that material been incorporated into

10 your database?

11 THE WITNESS: Yes. They gave me actual physical prints which I

12 scanned and put into my database.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: And is it the same with the Serbian Orthodox eparhe

14 [phoen] of Raska Prizren?


16 JUDGE BONOMY: And the Roman Catholic diocese as well.


18 JUDGE BONOMY: And what about the Institute for the Protection of

19 Monuments?

20 THE WITNESS: Likewise.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: On page 21 you refer to a Mrs. Saha Rasam [phoen],

22 a Canadian architect, who was a consultant for UNMIK and she had carried

23 out a comprehensive survey of all kullas. There's 44, it says, that had

24 been destroyed.

25 THE WITNESS: In those two municipalities.

Page 5521

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And of these 44 -- I think you refer to 45 as being

2 part of your summary. Those 44 are not identical to the 44 of the 45 that

3 you looked at.

4 THE WITNESS: No, not at all.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you. That completes the first stage of

6 your evidence. Tomorrow there will be cross-examination. You need to be

7 back here in time to re-commence at 9.00 tomorrow morning. Meanwhile,

8 I'll formally tell you, although I'm sure you're well aware of this, that

9 you must not have any discussion about your evidence meanwhile; that you

10 keep yourself to yourself so far is the evidence is concerned. You can

11 talk about whatever you like with whomsoever you like as long as it's not

12 the evidence in this case. If you can now leave the courtroom, we'll see

13 you again at 9.00 tomorrow.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 JUDGE BONOMY: At 9.00 tomorrow morning.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day of

19 October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.