Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5619

1 Wednesday, 1 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Riedlmayer.

7 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will again continue.

9 Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.


12 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Riedlmayer. Yesterday Mr. Bakrac asked you at

14 page 5538, line 23, of the transcript, if it were "possible for a serious

15 assessment of damage to be made on the basis of photos alone." And your

16 answer was --

17 A. My answer was that it is indeed possible.

18 Q. And in the context of your report, you're basically just assigning

19 one of five categories to the level of damage?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Particularly in those cases where you were called upon to make an

22 assessment based on photographs alone, in what way would you resolve a

23 close question?

24 A. As I indicated in my testimony earlier, we were always extremely

25 conservative in our assessments. So if there was any doubt, we would rule

Page 5620

1 for the lesser damage.

2 Q. Even though it might appear -- it could be possibly classified as

3 heavily damaged, you would rule it as lightly damaged, if all you had was

4 the photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Regarding your ability to distinguish the types and possible

7 causes of damage, for example, whether or not the damage had been caused

8 by explosives placed in the interior or by firing from projectiles from

9 the outside or bombing from the air, both Mr. Bakrac and Mr. Ivetic asked

10 you some questions about your experience and abilities in that regard.

11 You indicated that in the course of this project you got some on-the-job

12 training so to speak.

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And did you learn anything in this regard from your partner, Mr.

15 Herscher, who was an architect?

16 A. Yes. He knows something about the structure of buildings, and he

17 had also worked in Bosnia after 1995, working on the restoration of

18 buildings in Mostar.

19 Q. And in your answers to Mr. Bakrac at page 5539 and Mr. Ivetic, I

20 believe, at page 5602, you mentioned that you had done a good -- you had

21 read a good deal of the technical literature in this area.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you explain or elaborate on that a little bit. What kinds of

24 things were you reading?

25 A. There is a growing field of literature dealing with damage to

Page 5621

1 heritage buildings in armed conflict. Publications such as by the

2 observatory for the protection of cultural heritage in armed conflict at

3 the University of Naples has a series of publications on this. The

4 international committee on monuments and sites, a non-governmental

5 organisation, has also had a series of publications, again with chapters

6 that discuss the various types of damage, the various remedies for it and

7 so forth.

8 Quite aside from that, much of this is common sense if, for

9 example, the rubble -- there's a hole in the building, the rubble is

10 inside the building, I think it's usually safe to assume that the force

11 that caused the hole came from outside the building. Similarly, if the

12 rubble is scattered at some distance from the building, if there are

13 radiating cracks from where the hole is and soot marks radiating outward

14 from the site of the damage, it is often safe to assume that the explosive

15 was inside the structure.

16 Q. Thank you. At page 5553, line 24 through 5555 at line 9, Mr.

17 Bakrac was asking you about your description of the damage at the old

18 bazaar Peje/Pec, and the source of your information for the allegation

19 that the damage you saw was a result of having been burnt down by Serb

20 police in June of 1999. First of all, in your answer at line 14 on page

21 5555, you indicated that several individuals told you this and that they

22 barraged you with this information.

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. When did you visit that site?

25 A. In October of 1999.

Page 5622

1 Q. Okay. And you personally have no way of knowing who the

2 perpetrators are?

3 A. I was not there earlier, no.

4 Q. However, based on what you observed at that time, was the damage

5 consistent with having been burned down from the ground up?

6 A. Yes. I based that on several signs that I saw. First of all, the

7 entire line of shops had been obliterated, basically. The rubble was, in

8 all cases, pushed to the back of the site, and it was heavily charred.

9 What was also significant, in my view, is that there was no damage to the

10 next row of buildings in from the street on the side street behind. So it

11 was limited to the shop fronts facing the street.

12 Q. Was it consistent or inconsistent with an allegation of it having

13 been caused by NATO bombing?

14 A. I would judge that to be inconsistent with an allegation that it

15 done from the air.

16 Q. Was it consistent or inconsistent with the allegation that it had

17 occurred in June of 1999?

18 A. Well, the damage looked relatively fresh as of October. I have no

19 way of judging whether it happened in May or June, but I would say it's

20 safe that it didn't happen six months earlier.

21 Q. All right. Yesterday, at page 5571, Judge Bonomy asked you a

22 question about the indictment that you had seen prior to writing your

23 report in 2001. Do you recall, did that indictment have any -- list any

24 specific sites or locations with regard to cultural damage?

25 A. No. That version of the indictment, as far as I recall, did not

Page 5623

1 have a schedule of sites under the rubric of cultural heritage. There

2 were sites mentioned that had to do with other charges.

3 Q. With regard to cultural heritage, was it just a general

4 allegation?

5 A. A general allegation in the first indictment, yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now I want to move on to some of the questions Mr. Fila

7 asked you --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the evidence there is that there were sites

9 mentioned in other charges, although there wasn't a charge relating to

10 damage to cultural heritage. Let's be sure we're not at cross-purposes.

11 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour, there were other sites mentioned

12 with regard to deportations or killings.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 Q. At page 5582, line 23, Mr. Fila told you how he had or has the

16 impression that you -- that you wrapped up your research quickly and he

17 thought that -- that that quick wrapping up had something to do with

18 "something to do with the arrest of Mr. Milosevic." Did it?

19 A. No. Our research took us over two years, and the arrest of

20 Milosevic came towards the end of that two years.

21 Q. Mr. Fila also said he thought "you were receiving instructions

22 from the Prosecutor to wrap things up as quickly as possible so the

23 indictment can be supplemented."

24 Any truth to that suspicion on Mr. Fila's part?

25 A. I wasn't under pressure from the Prosecutor, but we were told that

Page 5624

1 any data we wanted to submit had to be in by the autumn of 2001.

2 Q. And who told you that?

3 A. That was the Office of the Prosecutor.

4 Q. Okay. Page 5586, line 16, Mr. Fila asked you about whether you

5 had gone to Belgrade to try to get additional information relative to the

6 White Book and allegations about NATO damage to Serb cultural sites.

7 First of all, I want to confirm, was the White Book your only source of

8 information about such damage?

9 A. It was not the only source.

10 Q. Was it your primary source?

11 A. No. It was one of several sources.

12 Q. Okay. Now, regarding Gracanica -- well, actually, let's --

13 MR. HANNIS: I would like to pull up an exhibit now, Exhibit

14 P2472.

15 Q. We have a couple of extracts from the White Book. Do you have

16 that on your screen? Do you recognise that.

17 A. It hasn't come up yet.

18 Q. And you recognise the cover page?

19 A. That is the title page, yes.

20 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the next page of this exhibit. And

21 if we could scroll down to the bottom of the page.

22 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, can you see a reference to Gracanica --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- at page 226?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5625

1 Q. Can you read what was in the White Book about Gracanica?

2 A. It says:

3 "The Church of the Assumption in the Gracanica Monastery, the

4 endowment of King Milutin, was built in the second decade of the 14th

5 century. The monastery keeps a significant collection of icons" and other

6 descriptions of the monastery. "On the night of 30/31 March, the village

7 of Gracanica was bombed for the third time, while four shells fell 500

8 metres away from the Gracanica monastery. With continuous, unrelenting

9 bombardment of Pristina, Gracanica is further endangered by detonations."

10 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page of this exhibit and if

11 we could, yes, focus in on the top.

12 Q. Regarding Pec and the Patriarch of Pec could you read that?

13 A. Yes.

14 "The Patriarchate of Pec: The complex of the Pec churches is the

15 spiritual seat and mausoleum of Serbian archbishops and patriarchs, built

16 in the third decade of the 13th century. During the bombardment on the

17 night of 31 March/1 April, the pumping station of the city water-supply

18 system, situated 500 metres from the monastery of the Patriarchate of Pec,

19 was struck. The old city centre was bombed during day-time on 10 April,

20 and after a series of repeated bombings of Pec, on the night of 14/15

21 April the old city centre was heavily damaged."

22 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters, please.

23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

24 MR. HANNIS: That's okay.

25 If we could go to the next page. Yes, we have another entry in

Page 5626

1 volume 2. If we go to the following page, the last page in this that is

2 marked Gracanica.

3 Q. Could you read that one for us.

4 A. "Gracanica: The village Gracanica has been the target of

5 countless attacks since the beginning of the war. It was once again

6 targeted again on the 1st of May. The missiles landed about 500 metres

7 from the monastery, causing the loosening of the walls."

8 Q. Now, in your report you indicated that in addition to the White

9 Book you had other sources from Serb authorities or Serb websites?

10 A. I'm thinking, for example, the Ministry of Information website in

11 Belgrade which issued repeated statements on these matters including

12 statements about Gracanica and Pec.

13 MR. HANNIS: If we could go next to Exhibit 2471.

14 Q. And I think you have a full list of those other sources in your

15 report at footnotes 9 to 11?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Okay. I would like, with the assistance of the usher, if I could

18 hand you a hard copy of the document that's on the screen. And if I could

19 have you read the highlighted portions of that that are pertinent to this

20 discussion at that moment.

21 A. Yes. This comes from the Serbian government website maintained by

22 the Ministry of Information. It is dispatched by the state news agency

23 Tanjug on June 12th, 1999.

24 "During the two and a half month barbaric bombing of Yugoslavia,

25 some 160 cultural monuments in Serbia have been most seriously endangered,

Page 5627

1 damaged or destroyed ..."

2 "According to the information of the Institute for the Protection

3 of the Cultural Monuments of Serbia, stated today ... by the institute's

4 collaborator, Svetlana Pejic ..."

5 "Through direct hits of the NATO air force, 24 monuments ... have

6 been destroyed, through actions in close proximity, 78 have been damaged

7 and, due to detonations, 57 cultural monuments have been endangered ..."

8 "The old city centres of Djakovica and Pec ... have been

9 irreparably destroyed."

10 "Among the 13 damaged monasteries and 11 churches, Gracanica" --

11 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Mr. Fila is standing up.

12 MR. FILA: [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Fila.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The interpreters are telling us, as you

15 all speak English, of course it's fast enough for you, but they don't have

16 time to interpret into Serbian. It's not an objection, it's just for the

17 sake of interpretation.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila, for drawing that approximate

19 to our attention. It was remiss of me not to be wearing the headphones.

20 If you could both slow down a little and also observe a pause between

21 question and answer that would help the interpreters greatly.

22 THE WITNESS: Should I repeat anything?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we all have the document on the screen, but

24 just continue your reading more slowly.

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5628

1 MR. HANNIS: And I think if we could scroll to the next page of

2 the document he's about to read from.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you continue reading, is this item

4 footnoted in the report?

5 THE WITNESS: It is. It's --

6 MR. HANNIS: That's footnote 9, Your Honour, I believe.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Footnote 9. Thank you.

8 THE WITNESS: So: "Among the 13 damaged monasteries and the 11

9 churches, Gracanica has suffered the greatest amount of damage.

10 "Due to the explosions of several dozens of missiles in the close

11 proximity ... the facade of the church has been damaged and numerous

12 creaks have appeared in the fresco paintings, widening after every

13 detonation. Parts of the frescoes have been broken off walls. The damage

14 done to the building of the old, eastern bedrooms of the Gracanica

15 monastery, the frescoes of which are in all the encyclopaedias of the

16 world, is visible.

17 "The Pec Patriarchate has been several damaged also ... old creaks

18 in the frescoes have widened and new have appeared. Parts of frescoes

19 have been broken off walls."

20 And I believe that is the end of the excerpts.

21 Q. I assume there the reference to creeks probably means cracks?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Now, did you visit Gracanica personally?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you see there in terms of damage, compared to what's

Page 5629

1 described in the White Book and this website?

2 A. I could see no sign of recent damage. Much of the monastery has

3 been heavily restored over the years, so there are old blasted-over

4 cracks. When touching the walls, you could also feel the dampness rising

5 up from the ground. More specifically, conservators who have visited the

6 site subsequently, have reported -- and these are conservators who have

7 expertise in mural paintings -- have reported that there is no damage

8 other than that from the rising damp and deferred maintenance.

9 Q. And you didn't see any evidence that would be consistent with

10 damage from NATO bombing?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: When you went there, were you in possession of this

13 article?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was. That's one of the reasons I went there,

15 Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, there are two possibilities here. One is that

17 these various features highlighted, in other words, parts of frescoes

18 broken off walls, damage to the building of the old eastern bedrooms, is

19 possible that that damage did exist. Can you say whether that's right?

20 And then the second question is: Whether, if it did exist, it was

21 consistent with bombing, the result of a bomb blast.

22 THE WITNESS: Well, I saw no signs of the damage, Your Honour --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're saying this is misleading in its

24 description of the state of the building?

25 THE WITNESS: As far as my observations and those of other

Page 5630

1 professionals who have visited the site are concerned.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Who are these other professionals?

3 THE WITNESS: In the case of the Pec Patriarchate, a team from the

4 Italian Instituto Centrale di Rettorato, the central institute for

5 restoration, did a project on the Pec Patriarchate in the aftermath of the

6 war. They published an entire monograph on it. And subsequently, in

7 collaboration with an organisation of Serb conservation professionals,

8 issued a report on damaged and endangered heritage in Kosovo. And their

9 conclusions state in so many words that all damage observed had to do with

10 deferred maintenance and problems of rising ground-water.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a separate question, I think, Mr.

12 Riedlmayer. My first point to you is whether this damage actually exists.

13 THE WITNESS: I think in terms of -- of cracks, there are old

14 cracks. And I had no way of judging whether the cracks were, you know,

15 millimetres wider than they had been before.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: But, you see, that's -- I thought you had said

17 initially, just now, that this was misleading. For example, "parts of

18 frescoes have been broken off walls."

19 THE WITNESS: I saw no sign of that having occurred, and I also

20 asked the monks, who were escorting us, to show me if there had been any

21 damage during the war, and they were not able to show me any.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm thinking of damage that might even

23 pre-exist the war. You know, the two separate questions are: What is the

24 state of the building? And separately: How much of it can be attributed,

25 if any, to the bombing? And I'm trying to focus for the moment what was

Page 5631

1 the state of the building. Is this an accurate description?

2 THE WITNESS: No, it's not I don't know. It is a building that is

3 almost 700 years old, and therefore it has had many ravages of time and

4 repairs done to it. There was an extensive restoration of the building

5 before the war, but the building hasn't been kept up for more than a

6 decade since then.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

8 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Excuse me, did you check when was the last

9 restoration carried on. And from taking that as a benchmark or as a

10 measurement of time, were you then able to see any cracks or fissures

11 coming up after the restoration? Were you able to check this with respect

12 to the restoration after?

13 THE WITNESS: Well, I did not, Your Honour, I did not have the

14 detailed documentation in hand when I visited the site. However, I have

15 seen three books that talk about that restoration and have extensive

16 photographs of the most important parts of the monastery. And what I saw

17 is consistent with what I saw in those three books, and those photographs

18 all pre-date the war. So I am convinced that there was no additional

19 damage caused by the war.

20 There is an ongoing issue of, you know, the gradual dilapidation

21 of an old building. For example, if a building built of brick doesn't

22 have the mortar pointed at regular intervals, the mortar tends to crumble

23 and fall out which allows rain and other things to fall inwards, which in

24 the long term does raise issues. But, no, there was no visible damage.

25 JUDGE CHOWHAN: You actually saw those restorations? Did somebody

Page 5632

1 point out the restoration? And then standing over there, did you see any

2 damage caused because -- or not caused?

3 THE WITNESS: The restorations are very evident, Your Honour,

4 because there are broad white streaks where plaster has been put over old

5 cracks, but that is -- it was clearly not recent. It dated from the

6 pre-war restorations.


8 Q. Thank you. You've already been talking now about what I wanted to

9 show you next, Exhibit P2470, I believe, I'd like to put up now. And this

10 relates to another web site. I believe this is the one that is YU

11 Heritage. Is that a site that you visited before you went to Kosovo?

12 A. Yes, and it's cited in my -- in the notes to my report.

13 Q. Okay. And can you -- can you read that first description

14 regarding the Patriarchate of Pec.

15 A. "The Patriarchate of Pec. NATO bombs repeatedly detonated in the

16 nearest vicinity. Due to detonations the walls of the churches are badly

17 shaken. The old fissures on the fresco paintings have widened and new

18 ones appeared. Portions of the frescoes have detached from the walls and

19 their collapse is imminent."

20 MR. HANNIS: Now, could we go to the next page.

21 Q. Did you actually visit this site?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And to the --

24 MR. HANNIS: Am I too fast again?

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, not this time, but could you please

Page 5633

1 explain where this document is from. I don't know what you're reading.

2 What is the provenance of the document.


4 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, can you answer that, please?

5 A. Yes. This is from a web site put up by the Institute for the

6 Protection of Monuments of the Republic of Serbia.

7 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the next page.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] And where is this in your list?

9 THE WITNESS: It is in the footnotes to my report between

10 footnotes 9 and 11.

11 MR. HANNIS: I believe this one is also in footnote 9.

12 And can we go to the next page, please. And finally the last page

13 I think is the one I want.

14 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, is this church a part of the complex?

15 A. It is part of the complex, yes.

16 Q. And this appears to show some cracks in frescoes and the photos

17 are purported to be April/May 1999. Did you see those cracks when you

18 there?

19 A. I did see the cracks; however, I looked at pre-war photographs

20 that also showed the same cracks.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. And the Italian study discusses them at some length.

23 Q. And concludes what about --

24 A. And concludes that it is caused by natural factors.

25 Q. Okay. All right.

Page 5634

1 Now I want to move on to another topic. Mr. Ivetic in his

2 cross-examination --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just before you --

4 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: -- do.

6 The pre-war photographs that you refer to, is any of them in the

7 database?

8 THE WITNESS: They are not in the database, sir. I was not

9 allowed to take pictures inside of Gracanica and Pec because of the KFOR

10 troops that were stationed outside, prohibiting photography.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

12 Mr. Hannis.


14 Q. But your reference to pre-war photographs --

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, I think.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think the witness didn't answer your

18 question. You asked him about pre-war photographs and he said he wasn't

19 allowed to take any photographs. That doesn't deal with pre-war

20 photographs; that deals with post-war.

21 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. The pre-war photographs I referred

22 to were in works, such as Gojko Subotic's book, Kosovo, Art of the Sacred

23 Land, and a number of other monographs on Serbian Orthodox heritage of

24 Kosovo, which shows the interiors of these churches.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: But they're not in the database?

Page 5635

1 THE WITNESS: They're not in the database.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, did you have a point to make?

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I wanted to say the same thing

4 Mr. Ackerman did. I didn't understand one thing, though. Perhaps it may

5 sound like an unusual question, but this is some new data. As for the

6 findings of the Italian conservators and the Serbian conservators, is that

7 among the data provided by Mr. Riedlmayer? We have an assertion here that

8 these fissures date from an earlier point in time, then we have them

9 mentioned in the Italian report and in the Serbian report, but I don't see

10 this among the material that we received.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not -- it is not in the material presented to

12 the Court, but this is a matter, of course, that you have ample time to

13 explore further later when you present your own case.

14 THE WITNESS: Can I, Your Honour?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Riedlmayer.

16 THE WITNESS: I would like to point out that my report to the

17 Tribunal in this matter was submitted in 2001. The joint report of the

18 Italian and Serbian conservators was published in 2003, as was the

19 monograph by the Italian Institute for Restoration. If the Court so

20 wishes, I can provide the references.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think that would be of assistance to at

22 least Defence counsel, if you can. Do you have that available or is

23 that --

24 THE WITNESS: Not on me, but I can provide it.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: You should provide it through the Office of the

Page 5636

1 Prosecutor, who will relay it to Defence counsel.

2 MR. HANNIS: I will. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, I wanted to move on to a question that Mr. Ivetic

4 asked you at page 5605, line 9 and following, and this will help me, too.

5 Can you distinguish for me the deference between a kulla and a family

6 compound. Are all kullas family compounds or are all family compounds

7 kullas? What's the difference?

8 A. The answer to both of your questions is, no, in short. A kulla is

9 a very particular kind of stone building, traditionally built by Albanians

10 in Kosovo and in adjacent areas -- Albanian-inhabited areas of the

11 districts of Plav and Gusinje, Montenegro. That's G-u-s-i-n-j-e. And a

12 family compound is simply a group of buildings, whether modern or of the

13 kulla type, that houses various branches of an extended family. What I

14 was simply referring to is that many kullas are located in such compounds,

15 but not all such compounds consist of kullas.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Riedlmayer, are kullas also tradition to

17 Albania itself?

18 THE WITNESS: They are found in small numbers in northern Albania,

19 but many of them were destroyed during the Enver Hoxha regime.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.


22 Q. I guess it's me. I'm still not fully clear. If I have a family

23 compound consisting of several buildings that are connected and surrounded

24 by walls and the lower part of each of the houses is built of stone, is

25 that a kulla?

Page 5637

1 A. A kulla is more than just a building of which the lower part is

2 built of stone. The entire building is monumental, it's usually two,

3 sometimes three storeys high. The top storey is usually elaborately

4 finished. It's usually at the corner of the building and it is known as

5 the guest-room, which is where major occasions, family occasions take

6 place. It is easily distinguishable from any other kind of house.

7 Q. Okay. And then finally there's just a vocabulary item I want to

8 clear up with you in the transcript, if I can find the reference. I think

9 the first one at is at page 5597 from yesterday. And you were discussing

10 with Mr. Ivetic kullas and whether or not they were -- could be used as

11 defensive structures. And your answer -- you described how someone had

12 reported to you fleeing and seeing the kulla destroyed by a hand-held

13 device firing a flammable into it. You say: "So in a -- it's transcribed

14 so in a lead-out in late 20th century warfare they had absolutely no

15 utility." I thought I heard you say "redoubt."

16 A. Neither. I have -- oh, as a redoubt.

17 Q. And on page 5598, you also said that they would make very poor

18 lead-outs, I assume again that was redoubts in the sense of a

19 fortification of some kind?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think we got the spelling right yet. Mr.

22 Riedlmayer, I think it should be r-e-d-o-u-b-t. It's obviously a word

23 with which the transcribers are not familiar, but it was used several

24 times in yesterday's evidence.

25 MR. HANNIS: Those were the two that I had noted yesterday when I

Page 5638

1 was taking notes. If there are more, I would propose that we make those

2 corrections as well.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers please pause between

4 questions and answers. The interpreters cannot follow you.

5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. I'll try to slow down, and actually I'll

6 stop. I have no more questions.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe we are

9 entitled to put some additional questions, and I may have only a couple.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: In respect of what, Mr. Bakrac?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Regarding Gracanica and some

12 additional information we have concerning the restoration works and

13 fissures, and there is another piece of information concerning Mr.

14 Riedlmayer's findings in those places he actually did not visit but rather

15 made his conclusions based on photographs. So these are the only two

16 questions I have.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the second matter has been explored

18 adequately, has it not? What do you want to raise in relation to the

19 photographs and the use of photographs as a tool in assessing damage?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we heard today that the

21 damage, or rather, the assessment of the damage based on photographs, as

22 said by himself, by the witness, were incorrect. They were made to appear

23 less significant than the actual damage. I believe this was at the very

24 outset of the re-direct today.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All he said was he gave the benefit of the doubt by

Page 5639

1 choosing the lesser rather than the higher form of damage, if there was

2 any doubt in his mind about which it was. You want to challenge that, do

3 you?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I wanted to ask

5 this: Whether this was done precisely because a photograph can not be

6 considered a reliable source to assess any type of damage.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: You've had adequate opportunity to explore the

8 issue of the use of photographs as a tool for evaluation of damage, but I

9 will allow you to ask further questions about Gracanica in view of the

10 more detailed exploration of the matter that has been carried out in the

11 re-examination.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have only one question regarding

13 that.

14 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Riedlmayer, you told us just now that you

16 examined Gracanica personally. Is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. It's also correct, I assume, that once you carried out that

19 examination, you saw cracks in the walls. Is that correct?

20 A. I saw old -- what appeared to be old plastered-over cracks.

21 Q. Can you assess the age of the cracks, how old are they?

22 A. All I can say is that the plaster did not appear to be fresh. It

23 had a patina of dirt on it. So I assume that it had not been applied in

24 the immediate recent past. As you know, churches have candles and other

25 activities in them that generate some amount of smoke and other particles,

Page 5640

1 which then settle on the walls.

2 Q. Did you have any pre-war photographs, such as in other cases where

3 you carried out assessments? Did you have pre-war photographs of these

4 places so as to be able to compare? When I say "these places," I mean the

5 parts on which you spotted cracks.

6 A. Yes. Some of the books I mentioned which were published in the

7 late 1990s, just before the war, and thus I assume showed the state of the

8 buildings immediately prior to the war. I'm referring to books like Mr.

9 Subotic's book on the Art of Kosovo.

10 Q. In that book, specifically concerning Gracanica, did you notice a

11 pre-war photograph depicting details of the cracks you subsequently saw

12 when you carried out your personal check-up of the place, so as to be able

13 to compare?

14 A. I saw the photographs of the interior. They showed the same

15 plastered-over cracks that I saw during my visit. What I was telling the

16 Court earlier is that I was not able to take comparative photographs

17 myself because photography was not permitted. But what I saw during my

18 visit corresponded to what I had seen in Mr. Subotic's book.

19 Q. Therefore, you claim that what you saw in Mr. Subotic's book

20 compared to the cracks, that they -- that the book shows the very same

21 cracks you saw there?

22 A. That is my conclusion, yes.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer. I have no more questions.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 Questioned by the Court:

Page 5641

1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Well, there's one Byzantinian monument on the St.

2 Sofia which has been adopted by plural religions to be a worship place and

3 it still exists, mosque and the church. Now, would this and the question

4 Mr. Bakrac had asked earlier, whether the people respected the Ottoman

5 heritage as their heritage, did you spot any such places in Sofia in your

6 sojourn to this area and where you found in respect of both coming up and

7 whether such monuments or a monument was kept intact or destroyed by any

8 of the ethnic groups? I'm grateful.

9 A. Your question is a little hard to answer because there is nothing

10 quite the equivalent in Kosovo to Ija Sofia which at various points was a

11 church, then a mosque, and now a museum. The closest, perhaps, is the

12 church of the Virgini Leviska in Prizren, which was built in the last

13 century before the Ottoman conquest. After the Ottoman conquest, as the

14 principal cathedral church in town, it was converted into a mosque. And

15 then following the conquest of Kosovo by the Serbian kingdom in 1912, it

16 was turned back into a church and is a World Heritage Site.

17 At the time I visited in 1999, it had not been touched, either by

18 the NATO bombing or by the local Albanians. Subsequently in 2004, there

19 were riots and it suffered damage, unfortunately. There were many places

20 in Kosovo that were revered by both Muslim Albanians and by Serbs, and I

21 think part of the tragedy of the events of 1998/1999 is that this kind of

22 co-existence was shattered and may not be possible for a long time again.

23 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, do you wish now to complete your

25 submissions?

Page 5642

1 MR. IVETIC: Sure, Your Honour. I don't know if we need the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I just want to be clear. That's what we can

4 now proceed to do.

5 MR. IVETIC: Yes, yes.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Riedlmayer, that completes your evidence.

7 Thank you for coming again to the Tribunal for giving it and for spending

8 an extra day with us and you're now free to leave.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 As I had previously advised the Court, and I think it's now

14 clearer from the -- from having gone through all the various extracts from

15 this study, is that there are a multitude of extracts that are not based

16 upon anything that this witness saw that are based upon what he was told,

17 particularly with respect to how damage occurred by other entities,

18 including this Sabri Bajgora of the Islamic community and the IMG

19 database, of which we don't know how the Bajgora group collected the

20 information, whether they in fact based it upon interviews with persons,

21 whether the persons they interviewed were eye-witnesses or not, et cetera.

22 This is the same type of defective second- third- and fourth-hand

23 information that Your Honours have previously stricken from the evidence.

24 For the sake of clarity, according to my notes, the following exhibits are

25 ones that are based entirely on this second-hand information from the

Page 5643

1 Bajgora group and the IMG database with the caveat that, of course, we've

2 heard that the IMG database has nothing about how damage occurred. So

3 essentially, it boils down to information from the Bajgora group as to how

4 damage occurred and that's Exhibits P1773, P1774, P1775, P1776, P1777,

5 P1778 --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you could speed this up by telling us

7 between what numbers and going to the ones that are exceptional.

8 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, the next two are not on my list

9 for the Bajgora group. The next two are ones that were apparently based

10 only on news where there are no informant information listed for persons

11 that may have been talked with and which Your Honours have already said

12 you will not rely upon in great detail. It all boils down to the fact, as

13 far as I understand it, the only sites where this witness visited and

14 actually spoke with persons personally and recorded the persons he spoke

15 with and what they said, the only ones that would not fall under the

16 objection would be P1781, P1782, P1783 and I've got listed P1788 with a

17 question mark. I think, from my recollection of the testimony, the

18 witness was in Vucitrn municipality and in Djakovica municipality of

19 the -- of the sites that are relevant to the indictment. And therefore I

20 would submit that for the reasons that we have previously identified,

21 namely the lack of probative value, the questions as to credibility and

22 problems with accepting such second- and third-hand information from

23 unknown sources as written evidence that goes towards the acts and

24 conducts alleged against either the accused or alleged subordinates of the

25 accused, violates the Rules of the Tribunal with respect to evidence and

Page 5644

1 we would ask that those exhibits either be stricken in their entirety or,

2 perhaps, be -- have the part that deals with how the damage was said to

3 have occurred stricken or redacted. I think that would perhaps be the

4 more conservative approach, and so that's why I give Your Honours both

5 options and leave it for the Court to decide.

6 And I think that's pretty much all I have on that score.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

8 Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we certainly object to the request that

10 the exhibits in the entirety be stricken. I think that's throwing the

11 baby out with the bath water. And I don't think it gives Your Honours

12 enough credit to be able to assess little or no weight to that as hearsay.

13 I make the argument I made earlier, I think it's premature to take that

14 step until you've heard all the evidence in this case. And until you've

15 heard all the evidence about a particular site or an event, those

16 statements that Mr. Riedlmayer heard or recorded in his report should be

17 available [Realtime transcript read in error "entitled"] to everybody. I

18 see the transcript ends with me saying "available" to everybody, I meant

19 to say "entitled."

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I had one other question about exhibits, Mr.

21 Hannis. There is a CD of the IMG database, but that is not an exhibit.

22 Is that correct?

23 MR. HANNIS: We had not tendered that, Your Honour. It is

24 available from Mr. Riedlmayer.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 5645

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we're satisfied that all of the exhibits

2 challenged are admissible, and they are admissible in their entirety.

3 Each one has relevance to Count 5, apart from certain other elements of

4 other counts in the indictment. Parts of them may be given ultimately no

5 weight at all. But even to understand the basis -- to properly understand

6 the basis for the witness's conclusions, one has to have available all the

7 information that he had. Indeed, it may be relevant to deciding to reject

8 a conclusion that he has reached, that he based it on very weak hearsay,

9 to which we would give no weight.

10 So it would be an artificial exercise to pick our way through

11 these exhibits and, as it were, fillet them of material which is of a

12 particular type of hearsay. So we shall neither strike any of the

13 exhibits or redact parts of them, but we will take a very cautious

14 approach to the hearsay content of these when we come eventually to

15 evaluate the various submissions made by the parties about the evidence of

16 this witness.

17 That takes us to the next witness, Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Before we move to him,

19 I did want to indicate that of the book by Gojko Subotic, it is listed in

20 the bibliography that appears in the Exhibit 1550, related to the

21 patriarch. It is a book that was published in 1998 called, The Art of

22 Kosovo. And that's for the benefit of the Defence counsel in the court.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

24 MR. HANNIS: Ms. Moeller has the next witness.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.

Page 5646

1 MS. MOELLER: The next witness, Your Honours, is Sabri Popaj, and

2 he's taking us back to the municipality of Orahovac/Rahovec and

3 specifically to the killing charge contained in paragraphs 75(b), Bela

4 Crkva, Schedule B, but also paragraphs 72(a), 72(a)(i), 25 to 32, and the

5 Prosecution charges in paragraphs 77(a), (b), and (d).

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, this witness is presented under Rule 92 ter.

7 Is that correct?

8 [The witness entered court]

9 MS. MOELLER: This witness was originally a live witness, but we

10 decided to tender his statement and will lead just a short bit in live.

11 He will be very helpful in pointing out the locations where the killings

12 occurred on some photographs, mainly.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Popaj.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please now make the solemn declaration to

16 tell the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed

17 before you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

21 Mr. Popaj, we have before us a lengthy statement, which you gave

22 to the Prosecution in June 1999, and we also have some corrections you

23 made to it in the year 2002. In addition, we have certain diagrams that

24 you were responsible for, so we have a lot of material. We've read that

25 material, so we are familiar with the evidence that you are able to give

Page 5647

1 the Tribunal. The purpose of having you here is so that the lawyers

2 representing the Prosecution and the various accused can ask you questions

3 they wish to ask, to clarify things; perhaps to add to the information to

4 some extent, and also to challenge what you've said.

5 To make best use of your presence, it's important to concentrate

6 on the particular questions that counsel raise. We don't need to go over,

7 again, the material you've given us; we already have that. So it would

8 help us greatly if you can concentrate your mind on the particular

9 questions and the particular issues raised in the questions, so we can get

10 as much information as possible, as much extra information as possible

11 from you today.

12 The first person to ask you questions of you will be for the

13 Prosecution, Ms. Moeller.

14 Ms. Moeller.

15 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours. Before I start with the

16 witness, I would like to point out that in the witness notification we put

17 in a footnote, saying that the 65 ter summary of the witness that was

18 filed with pre-trial brief was incomplete, and it was lacking. Exactly,

19 the one paragraph is evidence is mainly about, and I investigated this in

20 the team. And there is frankly no explanation how this one paragraph

21 could have disappeared from the version that was filed this year. This

22 one paragraph, which is in -- which is in the 65 ter summary that we filed

23 with the notification was, however, in the initial pre-trial brief that we

24 filed in the original case against the three accused. And we herewith

25 apply for leave to add back this paragraph which goes to the very heart of

Page 5648

1 evidence of this witness, and I'm very embarrassed to have to do that,

2 frankly.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I am sorry it's a problem I was not aware of.

4 I don't see anyone leaping to their feet to give you a hard time on this,

5 so we will grant your application.

6 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, that's appreciated very much.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examination by Ms. Moeller:

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Popaj. Could you please tell the Judges your

11 full name for the record.

12 A. Sabri Popaj.

13 Q. And where are you from, Mr. Popaj?

14 A. I am from Bellacerka.

15 Q. Are you married?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you have children?

18 A. I had two. Now I have two.

19 Q. Mr. Popaj, I see on the transcript it says "I had two. Now I have

20 two." Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Okay.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we know that that can't be quite correct in

24 our understanding of it. So please lead the witness to clarify that, Ms.

25 Moeller.

Page 5649


2 Q. Mr. Popaj, two of your sons died at some point in 1999, did they?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. And now you have two other sons?

5 A. One daughter and one son.

6 Q. And they are still alive?

7 A. Yes. One was born in the year 2000, while my son was born in

8 2001.

9 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you give a statement to the Prosecution in

10 June 1999?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you make some corrections in another short statement in

13 June 2002 before you testified in the Milosevic trial?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you came here this week, did you have the opportunity to

16 read through your statement and the addendum statement?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you did so, did you tell us about two changes that you

19 wanted to notify us of, one relating to the addendum and one relating to

20 your statement? And I will address these issues directly so you know what

21 I'm referring to. In the addendum, did you tell us that the name of the

22 surviving 2-year-old child was not correctly set out in the addendum?

23 A. Yes, he was from somewhere else. He was not my son; he was

24 somebody else's son. My sons were called Shendet and Agon.

25 Q. Yes, I think my question was not clear. In the addendum you

Page 5650

1 referred to a 2-year-old boy of the families of Zhuniqi that survived the

2 killing of this family and you corrected his name I think. Could you tell

3 us the correct name, his first name?

4 A. Yes, it was Zhuniqi. He was from the family of Arsim Zhuniqi and

5 he survived.

6 Q. And his first name was?

7 A. Skodran Zhuniqi.

8 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, this is the addendum. This is under

9 additions 1.

10 Q. And the other aspect you pointed out to us when you read through

11 your statement relates to the blowing up of the mosques in Celine, Bela

12 Crkva, and Rogovo that you say.

13 MS. MOELLER: This is page 11, Your Honours.

14 Q. Can you explain when you explain to us, when were these three

15 mosques blown up?

16 A. The mosques were blown up on the 28th of March, 1999.

17 Q. And what specific day was that?

18 A. It was Bajram.

19 Q. And were all three mosques blown up on the same day or on

20 different days?

21 A. On the same day.

22 Q. And which one was blown up first?

23 A. The first one was the Celine one, then Bellacerka, and then I saw

24 the Rogovo one.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Popaj, with these corrections that we have

Page 5651

1 now on the record, do you attest that your statements accurately reflect

2 your evidence; and if you testified today, would you give the same

3 account?

4 A. Yes, everything I said. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I would like to tender Exhibit P2446

7 containing both statements.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 MS. MOELLER: That's the 92 bis package.

10 Could we call up Exhibit P93, page 6, please.

11 Q. Sir, I'm now calling up a picture, an aerial picture, and I would

12 like you to point out some locations on this picture to the Honourable

13 Judges. Can you see the picture on the screen?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MS. MOELLER: Could the usher assist the witness.

17 Q. Mr. Popaj, can you mark your houses on this picture.

18 A. Yes. My houses are here. I now live in this one. This one is

19 also mine, this one as well, and these two here.

20 Q. Mm-hmm.

21 A. This is the cow-shed.

22 Q. Okay. And in your statement --

23 MS. MOELLER: It is page 3, Your Honours.

24 Q. -- you are saying that on the 25th of March five tanks entered

25 your village. Could you make crosses where these tanks were positioned in

Page 5652

1 our village that morning.

2 A. On the 25th, the tanks came from this road here. This is the road

3 from Xerxe to Rahovec. And two got into the schoolyard, while the other

4 three came towards the mosque, close to the mosque. It's the road that

5 leads towards Celine, towards the hills Brestovc, Hoca e Vogel. So they

6 were positioned here.

7 Q. Sir, I'm sorry, you have to mark it -- to draw it on the screen,

8 otherwise we cannot see it. Can you make a cross where the schoolyard is

9 that you just referred to.

10 A. Yes, I will mark it now.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Okay. And how many tanks were there?

14 A. Two tanks were there.

15 MS. MOELLER: May the record --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: So that's the area that's circled on the right-hand

17 side of the map.

18 MS. MOELLER: Thank you. Yes.

19 Q. Now, the mosque, could you also draw a line around the mosque

20 where the other tanks were, as I understand you saying.

21 A. They did not stop at the mosque, but they moved on in this

22 direction.

23 MS. MOELLER: Can the record reflect that on the left-hand side

24 the witness draw a line along the street which goes above the mosque.


Page 5653

1 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

2 Q. And do you know where the tanks went to after they went your

3 village, where they took positions?

4 A. These tanks went above the Celine village towards Nagavc, up on a

5 hill there.

6 Q. And in your statement you also say that already a week before the

7 24th or 25th of March some troops came into your village of Bela Crkva.

8 Which kind of uniforms, which colour of uniforms, did these troops wear?

9 A. They had light blue police uniforms and also camouflage, army,

10 uniforms. They were positioned above the village. It was above the house

11 of Naim Fetoshi.

12 Q. And the house of Naim Fetoshi, would you be able to see it on this

13 picture or would it be outside of this --

14 A. No.

15 Q. That is outside of this perimeter?

16 A. Yes, you cannot see it here; it's outside this photograph.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. The troops that came a week before the 24th of

18 March, which kind of vehicles did they have, if any?

19 A. They had APCs and trucks, and they were positioned there and they

20 began digging trenches there and they also put some -- a couple of

21 anti-aircraft guns there. Then they took Naim Fetoshi's house. Naim

22 Fetoshi had to leave his house with 38 members of his family. They came

23 from their house to my house, and they were sheltered at this house here,

24 my house.

25 Q. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Now, on the 25th of March, the day on which

Page 5654

1 the events that we want to talk about today occurred, you went back -- you

2 left your house, but you also went back into the village several times

3 during that day. And you refer in your statement to seeing that houses

4 were set on fire and that there was looting going on.

5 MS. MOELLER: This is pages 3 and 6 of the statement, Your

6 Honours.

7 Q. How did the people look? What kind of clothes did they wear, who

8 were setting the houses on fire and looting these houses?

9 A. On the 25th of March, in the morning, my family and all the people

10 in the vicinity of the stream were leaving their houses. In the evening I

11 returned; it was after the massacre happened in the stream of Bellacerka.

12 Q. Did you see any of the people who were setting the village on

13 fire?

14 A. The village began to be set on fire in the morning, at 5.00 in the

15 morning, on the 25th.

16 Q. And did the people who set the village on fire wear any uniforms;

17 and if so, which colour uniforms?

18 A. Yes. On the 25th they had police uniforms, the ones that were

19 setting the house on fire.

20 Q. And what do you mean by police uniform? What colour would they

21 have?

22 A. It was light blue. It was not dark blue, like the army.

23 Q. Okay. Sir, can you, on this picture, now also show and draw a

24 line along the Belaja River along which some of the killings occurred.

25 A. Yes, yes. The first group was from Clirim Zhuniqi's family --

Page 5655

1 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Can you make a line along the Belaja

2 river first, and we'll talk about the killings, step by step.

3 A. Yes, okay.

4 Q. Yes.

5 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the witness made a red

6 line along the Belaja river, starting from his house going to the top of

7 the picture.

8 Q. Now, sir, in your statement you refer to two families that you

9 helped crossing this Belaja stream and were then shot. Can you indicate

10 the location where this killing occurred, and can you put a 1, number 1,

11 there.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you. And in your statement you also say that you observed

14 this from a location not far away. Can you put a cross approximately

15 where you were when you observed this shooting?

16 A. Yes. There was a pylon here, an electricity pylon, right here.

17 Q. And how far away was that, approximately, from the group of the

18 two families, the Zhuniqi and the Spahiu families?

19 A. 120 metres.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the cross, in the right

22 upper corner of this photo, was the location where the witness was

23 observing the killing of the two families from.

24 Q. Sir, when you saw these two families being killed, did you already

25 use your binoculars there, or did you see it with your eyes?

Page 5656

1 A. I did not use the binoculars here; I saw them with my own eyes.

2 When I left this area, this is where Halim Fetoshi was killed. And to see

3 that I used burglars. This is where Halim Fetoshi was killed; he was born

4 in 1932.

5 Q. And you saw him being killed from the same location that you saw

6 the Spahiu and the Zhuniqi family being killed? You were in the same

7 position then when you saw that?

8 A. Yes. Yes, the same position.

9 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, for the clarity of the record, this

10 particular killing is not a victim listed in Schedule B, just to make it

11 clear.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a reason for that?

13 MS. MOELLER: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it not the case that there may be other

15 identified victims here who are not mentioned in Schedule B.

16 MS. MOELLER: Yes, indeed, all of our schedules list the ones that

17 we were aware of at the time.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you think it might be appropriate to revise

19 these schedules, either in light of evidence that's been led or in light

20 of evidence that may be led --

21 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: -- So that we have a clear indication of the

23 complete allegations.

24 MS. MOELLER: Yes, we will look into that, Your Honours. Thank

25 you.

Page 5657

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


3 Q. Now, in your statement you referred to policemen who shot these

4 two families, which included children and women. How did these policemen

5 look? What kind of uniform did they wear?

6 A. On my side there were 12 policemen. I don't know how many there

7 were across the river. They had camouflage uniforms. There were others

8 who were wearing bandannas on their heads.

9 Q. And the camouflage uniform, which colour camouflage was it?

10 A. It was the colour you see in the photograph, but it was lighter

11 than this.

12 Q. I'm sorry, I'm not all clear. Could you say the colour.

13 A. It was green, and it was light.

14 Q. Okay. And just one more question regarding the colours. What

15 colour is the curtain behind the Judges, if I may ask you? I know it

16 sounds stupid now.

17 A. I call it green.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you.

19 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, we will address that soon. It has to

20 do with local dialects, and it occurred now for several times with several

21 witnesses already; that there is some question about colours, and we will

22 get an opinion from the translation service I think from the interpreters.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a suitable time to interrupt?

24 MS. MOELLER: Yes, it would be, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Popaj, we require to have a break at this time

Page 5658

1 for 20 minutes. The usher will show you where you can wait while we have

2 the break. So can you now please leave the courtroom with the usher.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 [The witness stands down].

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, I'm told that we should take a picture

6 of this now, in case we lose it.

7 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I was just reminded by my case manager as well,

8 Your Honour. Thank you.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC91, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. We will resume at ten to 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

13 [The witness takes the stand]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.

15 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

16 Could we call IC91 up again, please, because I would like to

17 continue with this one. Yes. Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Popaj, before we took the break, we had already talked about

19 the shooting of the two families and the older man at the Belaja stream.

20 Now I would like to talk with you about the killing of the big group of

21 men that you observed. First of all, can you mark on this picture, if you

22 can see it, where the railway track crosses the Belaja River and draw a

23 line along there.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5659

1 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the line parallel to the

2 main street in the village, in the upper part of the photograph, reflects

3 the railway tracks crossing the river.

4 Q. And the shooting of the more than 40 men that you saw that

5 occurred at this crossing of the railway tracks and the Belaja River. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes. Exactly at the crossing.

8 Q. Okay. Can you put --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Should that be 14 men?

10 MS. MOELLER: 40, 4-0.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


13 Q. Could you put a number 2 close to this crossing on this picture,

14 please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you. And before we talk about the details of this

17 particular killing, I also want to ask you: After this killing, you heard

18 further shooting. And according to your statement, later on you went to

19 the site where you heard the shots, and you found some more bodies, bodies

20 of six men laying at the site. Can you also indicate where this group --

21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour.

22 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic is on his feet.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: I know that we have some of these things in his

25 statement, but our humble opinion is that when we are in a substantive

Page 5660

1 area of his statement, he should be asked open questions by the

2 Prosecutor, not to be led.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I can't say I fully understand that

4 objection, because the witness has already said today that he testifies

5 that this is his evidence in the statement. And all that Ms. Moeller is

6 doing is building on a particular piece of that evidence. There doesn't

7 seem to me to be anything wrong with that.

8 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, Ms. Moeller.

10 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, maybe I can accommodate that. I just

11 want to have the map complete, and then I will ask some more open,

12 specific questions about what the witness saw and heard himself.

13 Q. Going back to that --

14 MS. MOELLER: And it's page 4, the second-last paragraph of the

15 witness's statement that refers to this third group of men.

16 Q. The area where you heard the shooting from, approximately five

17 minutes, according to your statement, after the shooting of the bigger

18 group of men, where did you find the six bodies, if you can put a number 3

19 on this photo, approximately, where the location is.

20 A. I cannot see it very well here because I went a little bit lower

21 with the red line. But I'll put number 6 here. This photograph was taken

22 after the year 2000; probably in 2002 or 2003.

23 Q. Thank you. The location that you just marked, was it along the

24 railway tracks; and if so, in which direction, please?

25 A. No, it was on this side of the railway track. There is a water

Page 5661

1 canal that goes to Celine here.

2 Q. And how far away, approximately, was it from the Belaja bridge

3 where the other killing occurred, in metres, if you know?

4 A. It's 85 metres from the place where the larger group was killed;

5 that's where the six bodies were.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the site of the third

8 killing that the witness marked is on the left-hand side, below the line

9 that he marked as the railway tracks.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, where, in the statement, is that

11 reference?

12 MS. MOELLER: It is on page 4, the second-last paragraph I noted.

13 Yes. It refers to hearing more automatic gun-fire; and then on page 7,

14 the bottom paragraph, and page 8, the first paragraph, he sets out the

15 names of these six men that he found there, later on.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm still ...

17 MS. MOELLER: I can clarify that also with the witness, Your

18 Honours, because I think he only heard the shooting and found the bodies

19 later.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: No, it's the total. But I see how it's made up

21 now. It's two of his uncle's sons plus four other people; is that right?

22 MS. MOELLER: Exactly.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


25 Q. Now I would like to go into some details about the killing of the

Page 5662

1 big group of men at the Belaja bridge. When you saw the men being

2 assembled, as you say in your statement, were you still in the location

3 that you marked on this map, or were you somewhere else?

4 A. I was close to the railway track.

5 Q. So you were in the position where you just put the red dot on this

6 mark -- on this --

7 A. Yes, the red dot.

8 Q. Okay. Can you make a circle around this red dot, please, just to

9 mark it clearly.

10 A. I was about 10 metres away from the railway track.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you.

12 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the circle in the upper

13 right-hand corner of the picture is the position the witness was at when

14 he saw the killing of the 40-plus men at the Belaja bridge.

15 Q. How far was that away from the site where the killing occurred,

16 Mr. Popaj?

17 A. Not more than 200 metres, I would say; even less. I didn't

18 measure the distance, but it should be around 200 metres.

19 Q. And while you observed the things that were going on around the

20 Belaja bridge, did you use the binoculars that you had with you or did you

21 only use your eyes?

22 A. I saw them through the binoculars. They were captured on the

23 right side, past the bridge, and then they were taken on this side of the

24 bridge.

25 Q. Mm-hmm.

Page 5663

1 MS. MOELLER: Can we take a snap-shot of this photograph, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC92, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 MS. MOELLER: And then can we call up Exhibit P93, page 2, please.

5 Q. While the next photograph is coming up, I would like to ask you to

6 clarify something for the Honourable Judges and for us here in the

7 courtroom. In your statement --

8 MS. MOELLER: This is page 4 of the statement, Your Honours.

9 Q. -- you say that you recognised your oldest son, Shendet, being in

10 this group of men that was assembled at the Belaja bridge, but that you

11 only learned later from your wife and your parents that your other son,

12 your two brothers, and your nephew were in the same group. What I would

13 like to clarify with you is what could you actually see, and why could you

14 see Shendet but not the others? If you could explain that to the Judges,

15 please.

16 A. I saw through the binoculars, when they were brought from this

17 side to this side here. And here, at the telephone pylon/pole, they were

18 assembled there. I was on the other side. When they made them take off

19 their clothes, searched them, and plundered them, they took them then

20 here. And when they executed them, Shendet was here, at this location,

21 and my brother Nesim, while the others were down here.

22 Q. Okay. Can you mark with the pen, if the usher could assist, the

23 way that the group that you just explained walked, just as you showed now

24 with the indications, that we have it on the --

25 A. They stopped them here and they were all turned with their faces

Page 5664

1 towards the river.

2 Q. Can you make a cross where you just ended the line, please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. So at this location, the group was assembled, you said, and they

5 were searched?

6 A. They searched them. They had them -- their coats removed,

7 searched their coats, and took everything that they had in their coats.

8 Q. And that you could see through the binoculars, or how did you see

9 that?

10 A. At this point here, about 40 metres from the bridge was my wife

11 with my parents, father and mother. When they executed them, they had

12 pointed their guns to them and told them to go in the direction of Xerxe.

13 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the cross in the right

14 upper corner of the photograph reflects the position where the witness's

15 wife and parents were positioned.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: It will, Ms. Moeller, but the question wasn't

17 answered.

18 MS. MOELLER: Yes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And it would be helpful to have the answer.

20 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I will go back, but I just wanted to put that

21 on the record.

22 Q. Did you, yourself, see the group of men being assembled at this

23 location where you made the cross and being searched, or is that something

24 that your wife and your parents told you?

25 A. No, I saw it with my own eyes. I saw the group with my own eyes.

Page 5665

1 Q. Okay. And --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: The question still hasn't been answered, at least

3 question that you put, which was whether he saw it through the binoculars

4 not.


6 Q. Can you answer this question, please, Mr. Popaj. Did you see

7 it -- did you use the binoculars?

8 A. Through the binoculars, that's correct, while with my own eyes 45

9 minutes later, when they were already killed.

10 Q. Okay. I think we have to clear that up. You -- the searching of

11 the group, could you see that yourself through the binoculars?

12 A. Yes. When they searched them here, I could see it through the

13 binoculars. But when they executed them, I couldn't see it because they

14 put them down there. I could only hear the sound of the gunfire.

15 Q. So are we understanding correctly that before they were shot, they

16 were taken down to the edge of the river. So they were lower, and this is

17 why you didn't see the actual shooting, yourself?

18 A. Yes. They took them to the bank of the stream, and I couldn't see

19 it because this side is about three metres tall.

20 Q. And why did you manage to see Shendet shortly? Was he standing in

21 a particular spot?

22 A. I could see Shendet when they were standing by the stream. I

23 don't know if it is in my statement. I saw him only in his shirt,

24 sweater, because he had his coat removed. And when I found him later on,

25 he was in sweater, in a sweater.

Page 5666

1 JUDGE BONOMY: What did you mean, Mr. Popaj, when you say that 45

2 minutes after the shooting, you saw them with your own eyes?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, after 45 minutes the police

4 had already left and moved in the direction of Celine. I went there

5 myself and saw everybody who had been killed.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think that appears from this statement at

7 all. Have I misread it?

8 MS. MOELLER: I think that's what he just clarified.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's what he said, but it's different from

10 the statement. The statement gives the impression that he's told about

11 the identity of the victims at that stage and that he wasn't allowed to go

12 to the place of the execution.

13 MS. MOELLER: No. But it later says, Your Honour, that he went

14 back and he actually personally buried all of them.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but is that 45 minutes after the event?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I went there 45 minutes after

17 they were executed. Among them, we found eight persons who were still

18 alive.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All of that --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was only last year that one of

21 them died, a neighbour of mine.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, the statement says he got all that

23 information from somebody else. It casts, again, a question mark over the

24 quality of these statements.

25 MS. MOELLER: I can ask him again, Your Honours.

Page 5667

1 Q. Mr. Popaj, according to your statement, it wasn't you who went

2 back to check on what had happened at the site. But your family didn't

3 want you to return, and it was, rather, your wife that did that. Are you

4 changing this account now or is there a misunderstanding in the statement?

5 A. My wife went to the spot and saw that they were all executed; then

6 she returned. She came to me, and she told me that everybody was

7 executed. Later on we took the body of Feim Popaj, Alban Popaj, Hysni

8 Popaj, and Qamil Zhuniqi and took their bodies to Xerxe.

9 Q. And when you say "we," just to clarify, in your statement you also

10 say that two villagers from Zerze volunteered to return with a tractor and

11 bring these bodies back to Zerze. So was it these two or these two

12 including you, because that would be different from your statement?

13 A. They were together with us. It was Shemsedin Kelmendi and Abaz

14 Kryeziu. They were in the tractor with us and also my aunt Zymrete Popaj

15 and my wife.

16 Q. But you weren't on this tractor, were you?

17 A. I went on foot, not by tractor. I was waiting for them at the

18 railway track.

19 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, it appears that these details are not

20 in the statement, that he himself also went back, but I think that

21 clarifies maybe the discrepancy between his account and the statement to

22 some extent now.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: If this is an accurate account, you have to ask

24 yourself how the statement came to be written the way it was, then

25 checked, then checked again, and still remained like that. It's very

Page 5668

1 disturbing.

2 MS. MOELLER: I think the -- as I understand the evidence now, the

3 only sentence basically missing is that the witness himself went back

4 after 45 minutes again and had a look at the bodies, and that was

5 apparently not recorded and he didn't mention that in any of the

6 read-backs. I don't think in my submission that it necessarily undermines

7 the reliability of the rest of the statement.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: But what's also missing is that the -- having been

9 to Zerze, returned along with the two who had the tractor and actually

10 were involved in taking the survivors to Zerze.

11 MS. MOELLER: I think that is this one detail that is actually

12 missing, that he went together with the others but on foot before he

13 finally went back and buried all these bodies. It just seems to be not

14 mentioned.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not my impression that this removal of the

16 bodies took place 45 minutes after the shooting, but if that's what you

17 think he is saying, then you had better clarify it with him. My

18 impression is of two separate occasions when he's now saying that he

19 saw -- first of all, he saw the bodies, and then on a later occasion, he

20 was there to remove the -- the survivor.

21 MS. MOELLER: Okay. Maybe I can clear this up with Mr. Popaj.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, it's not bodies that are being taken in the

23 tractor, it's survivors.

24 MS. MOELLER: Yes, yes, exactly, and that is what I was talking

25 about actually, but I'll clarify that.

Page 5669

1 Q. Mr. Popaj, just to get some chronology into the events, after --

2 can you listen to my question. I'm sorry. After this shooting occurred,

3 what did you do then? What did you do next? And I'm talking about the

4 Belaje bridge incident.

5 A. When the incident occurred, I heard the screams of my mother and

6 my wife, who saw the execution, and after that I went to them. Together

7 we went to Xerxe. Abaz Kryeziu, Shemsedin Kelmendi, they came with a

8 tractor. It was also my aunt, my wife, and my mother. We heard Isuf

9 Zhuniqi screaming. When we came to this location, we found eight

10 survivors beneath the bodies. The persons who had survived the execution,

11 we took them in a tractor to Xerxe.

12 Q. And how much time had passed between the massacre and this group

13 going with the tractor to pick up the survivors, approximately?

14 A. It was very soon after because Abaz's house is very close to the

15 Belaje bridge. It's on the opposite side, 500 metres away. We went to

16 Abaz Kryeziu's house.

17 Q. So when you say you went back after 45 minutes, is that the event

18 that you referred to, when you went back together with the people on the

19 tractor to gather the survivors?

20 A. Yes, the people who survived. We took them. It was about 45

21 minutes later; it was not more than that.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I think that clarifies it as --

24 sufficiently hopefully.

25 I would like to play a very short video. It is a video that was

Page 5670

1 taken -- oh, yes, maybe can we first take a snap-shot of this picture,

2 please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC93, Your Honours.

4 MR. VISNJIC: Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the video-clip that

7 was intended by the OTP to be shown here, if this is V0002468, in that

8 case I have an objection to make. We viewed the footage and it was taken

9 by someone unknown to us. The comments that can be heard are actually a

10 testimony of someone testifying as to the events. That person is talking

11 about things that were not even mentioned by the witnesses called here by

12 the OTP. Then that person describes it in a way the witnesses did not,

13 providing some additional information, from which I gathered that that

14 person was some sort of a weapons expert. That was my impression

15 regarding the comment accompanying the footage. I spoke to my learned

16 friend Ms. Moeller yesterday and she said she was going to show only a

17 portion of it, although I don't know which portion.

18 First of all, we object to the entire footage. Second of all, if

19 they wanted to show a portion of it, they could have made an excerpt

20 without any voice-over because what can be heard on the footage is

21 something that is even beyond what the OTP at a certain moment asserts.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.

23 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, indeed I talked to my learned

24 colleague Mr. Visnjic yesterday, and what I intend to show is a very small

25 excerpt of this video, which we otherwise we do not intend to tender at

Page 5671

1 all. And it's purely showing the location of the Belaje bridge and this

2 part of the river where the shooting occurred. And the reason why I want

3 to show it is it was taken by investigator Garry Selsky exactly one year

4 after the shooting occurred at the same time of the year, so it depicts

5 very well how the area looked and how open it was to see in. And it's

6 only for the witness, really, to identify this location as the location

7 that -- where the massacre took place. I'm not even sure that there is

8 any talking in this small clip of the video that we show. I don't think

9 so. But if there is, we do not rely on the narrative at all. It is

10 really just depicting the location.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what you should do is compile a still from

12 the video and submit it with a brief statement confirming its

13 authenticity. I mean, there's no need for us to see this. As far as this

14 witness is concerned, are there questions you are wanting to ask him?

15 MS. MOELLER: Yeah, I just wanted to ask him whether this is how

16 the Belaje river side, where the killing occurred, looked at the time the

17 massacre occurred. Because as the witness already noted in his evidence,

18 the pictures we looked at earlier were taken in summertime, later, so it

19 was a different scene, actually, in terms of vegetation. And we tried

20 take stills from some videos in other cases. Unfortunately, due to the

21 bad quality of the stills, it doesn't work technically. But if there is a

22 big problem with that -- I don't insist on showing it, I just thought it

23 would be helpful to give an impression of the site --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do you know if there's any sound on it or

25 not? Because if there's no sound, then there's no problem.

Page 5672

1 MS. MOELLER: I think if there is any sound, it's saying this is

2 the Belaje bridge.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, very well. We -- we will allow it to be

4 shown in that case, since you wish to ask a question. It will be the

5 briefest possible part of it to show just the condition of the

6 countryside, and I, for my part, will take my earphones off while it's

7 being played just in case anything is said, but we will ignore anything

8 that's said.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. I'm told that the volume can be muted.

11 MS. MOELLER: That would be perfect, Your Honours. Thank you.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. Mr. Popaj, can you look at this video, please.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would that be similar to how the place looked where the killing

17 occurred on 25 March 1999?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you recognise this bridge?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Is that the Belaje bridge where --

22 A. Yes, the Belaje bridge. It's the same one, yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, as I say, Ms. Moeller, what you should do is

25 prepare a still, and it should be submitted just confirming what that is.

Page 5673

1 There's no need for this to be exhibited, and that removes any doubt in

2 anyone's mind that attention's being paid to the wrong sort of material.

3 MS. MOELLER: We'll try, Your Honours, but the technical

4 possibilities are limited. It may be of a very bad quality, but we'll do

5 our best to provide that.

6 Q. Mr. Popaj, in your statement you speak about helping with the

7 burial of the victims of these three killing sites. To start with, the

8 big group of men killed at the Belaje bridge.

9 MS. MOELLER: And if we could go back to Exhibit P93, page 2,

10 please.

11 Q. Did you bury the victims who were killed there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in your statement, did you set out all the names of the

14 victims and even for a large part of them the order in which you buried

15 them?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 MS. MOELLER: Can we go to page 2 of this exhibit, please. Okay.

18 Q. Mr. Popaj, do you see on this picture the site where you buried

19 the victims?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. MOELLER: And can the usher assist with a pen, please.

22 Q. Could you make a circle around the area where you buried them.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. What is the second little box that you made on the right-hand

25 side? Can you explain that?

Page 5674

1 A. This is where Isuf Popaj and Mehmet Popaj were buried; it was

2 father and son.

3 Q. And the other victims were buried where you made the big square?

4 A. Yes, the other. The big square.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. MOELLER: Can we take an IC picture, please, of that.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Is that will be IC94, Your Honours.


9 Q. And did you also bury the members of the Zhuniqi and the Spahiu

10 families, who were killed a little bit further down along the Belaje

11 bridge -- the Belaje river, excuse me?

12 A. Yes, I was there when they were buried.

13 Q. And were they -- where were they buried? Was it also close to the

14 stream, or somewhere else?

15 A. It was close to the stream. It was at the place they were

16 executed. It was higher up.

17 Q. And the group of the six men who you found along the railway track

18 towards the direction of Celine, did you also help burying them?

19 A. They were killed here.

20 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that the witness marked in

21 the left-hand upper corner of this picture the spot where the group of six

22 men was killed. Thank you.

23 Q. And were they buried close to this, in this vicinity?

24 A. Close to this tree here; that's where they were buried.

25 MS. MOELLER: Can we take another IC shot, please.

Page 5675

1 Q. Mr. Popaj, how many relatives of you were killed at the Belaje

2 bridge?

3 A. Two of my uncle's sons were killed here; while, altogether, 22

4 were killed. There was cousins, my sons, my uncle's sons.

5 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit P94, page 1, please.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: The registrar may wish to give us an IC number for

7 that.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC95, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


11 Q. Mr. Popaj, is that your son that you see on the screen now?

12 Sorry, it's not up yet.

13 A. Yes, my younger son, Agon.

14 Q. How old was he when he was killed?

15 A. He was not 14 yet. On the 31st of March was his birthday. He

16 would be 14 on the 31st of March.

17 MS. MOELLER: Can we go to page 13, please.

18 Q. Is that your other son, Mr. Popaj?

19 A. Yes, Shendet.

20 Q. And how old was he when he was killed?

21 A. 17, 17 years old.

22 Q. And you also lost two brothers, did you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was your brothers' professions?

25 A. Nazmi was an agronomist, while Nesim was a doctor, urologist.

Page 5676

1 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, the brothers are preferred in

2 paragraph 75(b) of the indictment, and his nephew as well.

3 Q. And how old were your brothers when they died?

4 A. Nazmi was born in 1956, while Nesim, 1965.

5 Q. And in your statement you also referred to your nephew, Alban.

6 A. Yes, Alban.

7 Q. And he first was among the survivors that were picked up by the

8 people on the tractor, was he?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did he later succumb to his injuries?

11 A. The first one to die was Hysni Popaj. It was 6.00 p.m. when he

12 died, while Alban died on the 26th at 1.00 p.m. --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, a.m.


15 Q. And how old was Alban when he died?

16 A. 21 years old. He was born in 1978.

17 Q. Mr. Popaj, when the metropolitan police team arrived in your

18 village in June 1999 and started exhuming the bodies of the victims, were

19 you present?

20 A. Yes, I was present there. I was the first one there.

21 Q. Did you help the metropolitan police find the graves?

22 A. I helped them exhume the bodies, and also when the bodies were

23 re-buried.

24 Q. And did you also identify a number of bodies to the metropolitan

25 police for their formal exhumation report?

Page 5677

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. MOELLER: Could we call up Exhibit P97, page 3, please. And

3 scroll down, please. Your Honours, this is just for me to point out to

4 you that Mr. Popaj on page 3, 4, and 5 is mentioned as identifying 15 of

5 the deceased in this exhumation report.

6 Q. Mr. Popaj, after these killings occurred you also spent time in

7 Celine between 28 March and I think early May. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

9 Q. How was the situation in Celine during these days and weeks?

10 A. When I went to Celine, I found out that many people had been

11 killed.

12 Q. Did you observe any destruction in the town itself, destructed

13 houses or other buildings?

14 A. Destroyed houses, people who had been killed, burnt, burnt bodies.

15 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, this is pages 8 to 12 of the statement

16 where he deals with Celine.

17 Q. And while you were in Celine, did you also help bury the bodies of

18 killed people there?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And approximately, how many bodies did you bury while you were in

21 Celine?

22 A. 85 bodies.

23 Q. And from the bodies you buried yourself, was there anyone among

24 them who would wear a KLA uniform or who would have weapons on him or her?

25 A. No, none of them, neither weapons nor uniforms. They were women,

Page 5678

1 children, men -- elderly men. We buried an elderly man who was born in

2 1893.

3 Q. Now, we already clarified some aspects about the mosque in Celine

4 and in two other villages in your area at the beginning of your testimony.

5 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up exhibit P1792, please.

6 Q. In your own village, in Bela Crkva, did you have a mosque?

7 A. Yes, we had the mosque. The new mosque it was called Xhamia e Re.

8 Q. And when was this mosque built?

9 A. In 1997.

10 Q. And do you recognise this picture?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you say what it shows.

13 A. Close to the mosque here there was a shop, and there was also a

14 minaret here 46 metres tall. This is where the minaret was. This

15 photograph has been taken from outside the walls, the surrounding walls of

16 the mosque.

17 Q. So is -- which mosque is that to start with, Mr. Popaj?

18 A. This is the mosque in our village, in Bellacerka.

19 Q. And can you -- can you draw with the pen where the minaret was

20 that you already mentioned.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. And when was this mosque destroyed in the way that is depicted on

23 this picture, if you know?

24 A. On the 28th of March. It was Bajram day.

25 Q. And how far away were you when the explosion, as you mention in

Page 5679

1 your statement, occurred?

2 A. When the mosque was blown up, I was in the field between Celine

3 and Bellacerka.

4 Q. And Celine and Bela Crkva, how far are they apart, approximately?

5 A. They're very close, about one and a half kilometres. I was in

6 between the two.

7 Q. And in relation to that, where would Rogovo be, how far away was

8 Rogovo from Bela Crkva and Celine?

9 A. It's about 800 metres from the Belaje stream, maybe one kilometre.

10 Q. And if you could explain how could you see the explosion of all

11 three churches, as you say in your correction today?

12 A. We were there at the side of the mountain - that's what we call

13 it - we were together with Nazim Rexhepi, and then we heard the explosion.

14 And then I looked towards my village and the mosque was not there anymore.

15 And then there was another explosion and I said, Well, the mosque in

16 Rogovo is not there anymore. It was at the same time that these

17 detonations were heard.

18 Q. You're saying we were at the side of the mountains. Were you at a

19 higher level overlooking the cities where you saw that; is that what

20 you're saying?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you.

23 MS. MOELLER: Can we call up Exhibit 2445, please.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you wish a photograph of this exhibit first?

25 MS. MOELLER: Oh, yes, sorry. Can we take a snap-shot of this.

Page 5680

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC96, Your Honours.

2 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, can we call up Exhibit 1800. I had the

3 wrong number, 1800.

4 Q. Mr. Popaj, do you know what this picture shows?

5 A. This picture shows the mosque in Celine.

6 Q. And when you went there after the -- on or after the 28th of March

7 when you say the explosion took place, did it look like that when you

8 first went back?

9 A. Yes, that's what it looked like. Because of the detonation, you

10 could see the carpets and everything else that was inside the mosque.

11 They were blown in another direction, off in another direction.

12 MS. MOELLER: And could we now call up as a last picture Exhibit

13 1806, please.

14 Q. Mr. Popaj, do you recognise this mosque?

15 A. Yes, I do. This is the mosque of Rogovo.

16 Q. And after the 28th of March, when did you first go and have a look

17 at this mosque, if you recall?

18 A. I think it was early April when we went to see this mosque.

19 Q. And did it look similar to that or like that when you first saw

20 it?

21 A. Well, this is not the full picture of what -- of the destruction

22 because there was a house here on the left, and that was destroyed as

23 well.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, to go back to the mosque in Celine. In your

25 statement you say --

Page 5681

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move to that. Where was the minaret in

2 this mosque, Mr. Popaj?

3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: So we are seeing part of it, the remaining part of

5 it in the photograph?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Here is where the minaret was,

7 and to the left of the mosque there was another house used by the mosque.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Take a picture of that, please, may I ask.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC97, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. Mr. Popaj, the Celine mosque, you described that closely before it

13 detonated -- closely before it exploded, you saw policemen going into the

14 mosque and staying there for I think you say perhaps one hour. Can you

15 describe how these policemen looked, what kind of uniform did they wear?

16 A. When they came that day in Celine, they torched houses as well.

17 They went directly to the mosque. When they left the mosque, they were

18 wearing uniforms in a colour similar to the curtains, camouflaged.

19 Q. And you're referring to the curtains behind the Judges, the

20 colour?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. MOELLER: May the record reflect that these are blue curtains,

23 please.

24 Q. And you also say that they arrived in an armoured vehicle. Do you

25 recall how this vehicle looked like, what kind of vehicle was it?

Page 5682

1 A. Yes, an APC.

2 Q. And on this same occasion, you saw these policemen also burying

3 some bodies, did you?

4 A. The APC was a police APC. That, what you mentioned about burying

5 some bodies, the eight bodies that were brought from Rahovec, that

6 occurred later.

7 Q. So that was not on the same day?

8 A. No. They returned again and torched houses when they brought the

9 eight bodies from Rahovec.

10 Q. But you mention in your statement that I understand the day the

11 mosque was dynamited the policemen came with an excavator and started

12 digging two holes in which they would put bodies. Do I understand that

13 correctly or not?

14 A. The event with the mosque, the mosque was blown up before the

15 bodies were brought, the bodies from Rahovec. I wasn't even 100 metres

16 away when they buried these bodies.

17 Q. Okay. My last question, Mr. Popaj: The killing sites at the

18 Belaje river where these massacres occurred, are they still recognisable

19 today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And how?

22 A. I wanted the traces of the execution to remain there. The shoes

23 of my children are still there, hung on the trees. I've put a stone, a

24 rock to the place where the sons are and my cousins and brothers are.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Popaj.

Page 5683

1 MS. MOELLER: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Moeller, you've abandoned any attempt to

3 clarify page 11, have you?

4 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I have, Your Honour. Do you want me to go into

5 that?

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, that's your choice, but it -- it's quite

7 inconsistent with what apparently the witness is saying so far as timing

8 is concerned. And, for example, the link between the same personnel

9 involved in the two matters. It may be that these things happened. We

10 have to evaluate that. But who was responsible may be difficult to

11 determine in light of the apparent inconsistency between what's just been

12 said and what's in the statement.

13 MS. MOELLER: I can try and clarify it a little.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it would be helpful.

15 MS. MOELLER: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Q. Mr. Popaj, we need to go back to -- to the blowing up of the

17 mosques and to the event when you saw policemen coming into your town with

18 excavator and digging two holes in which they put bodies. Now, in your

19 statement, it reads like that these two events occurred on the same day.

20 Are you now saying it occurred on different occasions?

21 A. When they blew up the mosque in our village - maybe I

22 misunderstood you - they came in our village with the excavator.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. They buried animals in those holes, not humans.

25 Q. So when you were talking about excavators coming later, after the

Page 5684

1 mosque was blown -- were blown up, you were referring to excavators coming

2 into Bela Crkva, not to Celine?

3 A. I apologise. I misunderstood your question. I thought you were

4 mentioning -- referring to Celine. In Bellacerka the excavator was at the

5 yard of Sari Zhuniqi. We thought that they were burying bodies there, but

6 later on it turned out that they were burying animals in those holes. It

7 happened on the same day, the 28th.

8 Q. I think it is still not clear. Let us only talk about Celine at

9 this point --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Why don't you give the witness his statement and

11 ask him to look at the first paragraph on the English page 11.

12 MS. MOELLER: I can certainly do that, Your Honours.

13 Q. Mr. Popaj, it is -- in the English version it is page 11; and it

14 is towards the end of your statement. It should be the second-last page

15 before you sign it, if you could have a look at that.

16 MS. MOELLER: Can the usher maybe assist, the second-last page,

17 page 11 in the English.

18 MR. LUKIC: In Albanian it's page number 14, paragraph number 2.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.

21 Page 14, paragraph 2, according to Mr. Lukic.

22 Q. Is this paragraph relating to -- starting with saying: "One day

23 during this period, around 1.00 and 2.00 p.m. I saw a green-coloured

24 armoured vehicle arrive ..."

25 A. When they came here in Celine, they came to clear the terrain.

Page 5685

1 Later on, a truck, a Mercedes make, came in Celine. This refers to

2 Celine.

3 Q. Yes. And what you say in this paragraph:

4 "That a green-coloured armoured vehicle arrived, that an

5 excavator started digging a hole, that they then moved across the road,

6 that they repeated it, dug another hole on the other side."

7 Did these events occur the same day that the Celine mosque was

8 blown up?

9 A. No. In Celine it happened, it occurred on another day. In

10 Bellacerka it happened on the same day. The cows were taken to the yard

11 of Sari Zhuniqi.

12 Q. Mr. Popaj, could you have another look at your statement, please,

13 at this paragraph, page 14, paragraph 2. Your statement, as we understand

14 it, says that these excavators came into the village before the mosque was

15 blown up; and that it was basically the same people who first dug the two

16 holes and who then drove to the mosque, went into the mosque, and then the

17 mosque exploded. Are you changing this evidence now, or are we just

18 misunderstanding each other here?

19 A. It was on the 28th in Bellacerka, the same day when the mosque was

20 blown up; and in Celine it was on a different day. I mixed up the two.

21 Q. Okay. Do you recall which day you saw these excavators coming

22 into Celine and digging these two holes and putting bodies in there, as

23 you say?

24 A. In Celine it was either on the 12th or the 13th of April when they

25 brought the eight bodies. They brought Sefedin Sahani with his entire

Page 5686

1 family, five-member family; and Hajdar Rexhepi and Sakip Rexhepi as well.

2 Q. And the people who came with the excavator and dug the holes, what

3 colour uniforms did they wear, if any.

4 A. Not all of them were policemen. Some of them were prisoners of

5 war. They were wearing yellow -- what we call a yellow sort of uniform.

6 Q. And the ones that you say were policemen, what did they wear?

7 A. The police was wearing the same uniforms. While those who

8 unloaded the bodies, they were Albanians who had been captured.

9 Q. And by "the same uniforms," what colour uniform do you mean, if

10 you could restate it, please?

11 A. The police was wearing the uniform in the colour of the curtains

12 but camouflage pattern, not single colour.

13 Q. And now to go back to the day the mosque in Celine exploded. You

14 say that the people who went into the mosque shortly before it exploded,

15 they drove to the mosque and stopped close to it. What kind of vehicle

16 did they have?

17 A. It was a Pinzgauer, and there was a second vehicle, an APC.

18 Q. And just to be absolutely clear, the people who went into the

19 mosque before --

20 A. Land Rover or whatever they call it, a Pinzgauer.

21 Q. And the people who went into the mosque before it exploded, what

22 colour of uniform did they wear, if any?

23 A. The same policemen moved around. There were two groups in

24 Bellacerka and Celine, groups of policemen. They wore the same uniforms.

25 Q. So had you seen those policemen who went into the mosque before,

Page 5687

1 on other occasions in Celine?

2 A. No. The day the mosque was blown up, that's when we saw them.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I think that's as far as I can clear

5 it up here.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I have a couple of questions for you, Ms. Moeller,

7 to try and clarify things. On page 8 of the statement in the second

8 paragraph, there's a reference to 13 people; and I think on page 4 the

9 similar incident there's a reference to 14 people. That may be neither

10 here nor there. Are these people identified anywhere?

11 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour. If -- do you want me to clarify

12 it with the witness or can I clarify it from the context of the statement?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, can you explain to me what you understand.

14 MS. MOELLER: These are the two families, the Zhuniqi family and

15 the Spahiu family. And I think it was 14 originally, but then this 2-year

16 boy survived which the villagers found out later. So this is probably why

17 sometimes it's 13 and sometimes it's 14. But 13 of them are in Schedule B

18 as killing victims.

19 And it is my understanding that it is these two families that he

20 talks about. And then the six bodies or the six men who were killed a

21 little further down the railway roads -- tracks, sorry, as we heard

22 earlier today. So it was three killing incidents; the two families being

23 13, then the men being 40-something, and then the six men along the

24 railway track. And plus the one older man who is not on Schedule B yet.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. And the second question was

Page 5688

1 particularly related to page 10. There's a large number of deceased

2 buried in Celine.

3 MS. MOELLER: Yeah.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Where does this fit into the indictment, this

5 material in relation to Celine?

6 MS. MOELLER: In our submission, it fits into paragraphs 77(a),

7 which is persecution, and describes the killing of hundreds of Kosovo

8 Albanians which refers back, as far as I know, to paragraphs 25 and the

9 following, which is the campaign of terror including killings. Celine is

10 a deportation site but it's not particularly charged as a murder site in

11 the indictment. And we don't have a schedule for Celine victims, which is

12 why I only led general evidence about the number of killed people the

13 witness saw there.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: But which part of 72 does it appear?

15 MS. MOELLER: As deportation site it appears in 72(a)

16 Orahovac/Rahovec. It refers to the morning of 25 March and the village of

17 Celine/Celin. And I think we heard witness Mr. Jemini on Celine.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Thank you very much.

19 Mr. O'Sullivan.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, the order will be: General Ojdanic,

21 General Lukic, General Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, Mr. Milutinovic, and

22 Mr. Sainovic.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the best plan is to take the break just now

25 and then start the cross-examination immediately after the break.

Page 5689

1 Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, before we break, the motion that you

3 were given a courtesy copy of this morning has now been formally filed.

4 And it's my understanding that all of the rest of the accused all want to

5 signify that they join in that motion, so that it becomes a joint Defence

6 motion regarding the witness Zyrapi.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I suspect, though, as time passes, it may be easier

8 or it may be clearer how to deal with that motion because the situation

9 envisaged may or may not arise this week. It's just not clear at the

10 moment. So we will address it at an appropriate stage and you will have

11 an opportunity to deal with the matter, but I don't think now is the

12 appropriate stage.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm not asking to deal with it now, except I

14 now must respond to what Your Honour just said. And I will inform you

15 that one of the teams submitted the Rule 68 documents that are

16 untranslated to CLSS this morning, asking for it --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: You misunderstood me.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman. We already have this week an example

20 of a witness who's being brought back for cross-examination. The

21 situation may develop where the Prosecution have to decide: Do they lead

22 the witness in chief -- I'm only raising a hypothetical. Do they lead him

23 in chief and bring him back for cross later or do they bring him back for

24 examination and cross later. And I'm sure that decision will depend on

25 how the rest of this week pans out. So it seems to me premature at this

Page 5690

1 minute to try to address that issue if it cannot, as I understand it, be

2 resolved amicably.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand and I agree.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Popaj, we have to have a break now and the

5 usher will show you where to wait during that break of about half an hour,

6 so could you please leave the courtroom with the usher.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If necessary, I can submit you this

8 list with the names of victims from Celine. In case you need the names of

9 the victims, I have them with me.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. That won't be necessary at

11 the moment. If you could please leave the courtroom just now. Thank you.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: And we will resume at quarter to 1.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

17 MR. VISNJIC: I'm waiting for the witness, Your Honour.


19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Popaj, you will now be questioned by the

21 counsel for the accused. The first of these is Mr. Visnjic.

22 Mr. Visnjic.

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Popaj, my name is Tomislav Visnjic, appearing

Page 5691

1 for General Ojdanic. I have a few questions for you regarding the events

2 on the 28th of March, 1999. Mr. Popaj, is it correct that your village of

3 Bela Crkva has around 3.000 inhabitants?

4 A. 2.800.

5 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that people by the name of Popaj, like

6 yourself, were your close or distant relatives?

7 A. Yes, relatives.

8 Q. Today you testified that a week before the 25th of March, Serb

9 forces entered your village and took up position at a location called

10 Brdo. In your statement, you say that around 40 Serb policemen and

11 soldiers arrived in the village.

12 My question is: How do you distinguish between a policeman and a

13 soldier? Is it by the colour of uniform?

14 A. Yes, the colour of their uniforms.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have Exhibit P93,

17 page 6, put on the ELMO.

18 Q. Mr. Popaj, this is another, or rather, the same photograph on

19 which you marked certain locations, when being examined by the OTP. I

20 wanted to ask you about one portion of your statement, in which you say

21 that you saw five tanks enter the centre of your village.

22 Can you tell me whether -- well, first of all, can you point at

23 the photograph, the place you were when you saw the tanks enter the

24 village.

25 A. I was at home. Above my house, and as I said two of the tanks

Page 5692

1 entered the schoolyards and the other three moved on towards the mosque.

2 Q. Can you mark for us, can you put a dot, where exactly you were, in

3 which of your houses.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness put

7 a blue dot on the photograph, marking the house he was in.

8 Q. The total number of tanks which entered your village was five.

9 There were no more than that. Am I correct?

10 A. Yes, five tanks. And at the village, two remained at the school;

11 the others went towards the road, Xerxe-Rahovec.

12 Q. My question was: Were there any other tanks there or were these

13 the only ones; the only tanks to enter your village at that day, at that

14 time?

15 A. That day, in the morning, five tanks entered the village, while

16 the others were on the main road. They were on the main road that came

17 from Prizren and Gjakova and led towards Xerxe and Rahovec.

18 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Popaj, at a certain point, the tanks

19 left for Celina; that's how I understood your testimony. Can you tell me

20 how much time elapsed between the time the tanks left for Celina and the

21 time when, according to your testimony, automatic rifle fire was opened on

22 the village.

23 A. The automatic rifle fire started before 3.00 a.m. in the morning,

24 and it never stopped. They also shelled from this Brdo. And the tanks,

25 the three tanks that I mentioned, they just moved on and went into the --

Page 5693

1 in the direction of Celine.

2 Q. Did any time pass between the moment the tanks entered the village

3 and the moment that automatic fire was opened on the village? I

4 apologise. I will repeat.

5 Did any time elapse between the moment the tanks left the village

6 and the moment when fire was opened on the village from automatic rifles?

7 A. The two tanks did not leave the village; they stayed there until

8 the 4th of May there in the schoolyard, while the other three, they moved

9 on towards Celine.

10 Q. Tell me this, please: On this photograph can you mark the houses

11 that were set aflame first by the Serb forces.

12 A. At the entrance of the village, it was this neighbourhood here.

13 These were the houses that were set aflame first, and then they moved on.

14 But the houses were not burnt all on the same day. They continued to burn

15 the houses until the 4th of May. The last houses to be burned were these

16 here on the 4th of May.

17 Q. Can you mark the houses which, according to your statement, were

18 burned on the 25th of March, in the morning.

19 A. The first houses are not in these -- in this photograph.

20 Q. Are those houses to the left- or to the right-hand side of the

21 photograph or immediately beyond?

22 A. The ones that were burned are on the right, to the right.

23 Q. Can you mark the spot where you were as this was taking place.

24 A. On the 25th of May [as interpreted], in the morning, the villagers

25 left and went towards the stream. Half of the village left. I left my

Page 5694

1 home later and I went here.

2 Q. From that point, you observed the houses being set on fire. Am I

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Very well.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you going to have that marked properly, Mr.

7 Visnjic?

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It should be

9 assigned an IC number.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but it's not clear which mark relates to

11 where the witness was at the time the houses were being set on fire. Can

12 we have that marked clearly in some way?

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I will ask the witness.

14 Q. Could you please put a circle around the place where you were when

15 the houses were set on fire.

16 A. I was here. There's an oak tree here. Under the oak tree.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And I note that the witness's answer relates to the

18 25th of March and not as page 75, line 18, says, the 25th of May.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC98, Your Honours.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 3D97, page 11 put on

21 the screen, please.

22 Q. Mr. Popaj, did you know that the KLA arrived in Bela Crkva and

23 distributed weapons to the inhabitants to defend themselves from the

24 Serbs?

25 A. There was no KLA in Bellacerka.

Page 5695

1 Q. Mr. Popaj, did you know that there was civilian protection in the

2 village? One of their members, among others, was Nesret Popaj. This is

3 Exhibit 3D122.

4 A. No, I don't know. Nesret Popaj was not there at all.

5 Q. Nesret Popaj, N-e-s-r-e-t. He's a relative of yours; am I

6 correct?

7 A. He does not live in Bellacerka. He had not -- has not been living

8 there from 1985. I know him.

9 Q. Did you know that he provided a statement to this Tribunal at page

10 755530. This is the exhibit we have on the screen, in which he asserts

11 that --

12 A. No, I don't know that.

13 Q. -- in which he claims to have been a member of the civilian

14 protection, that he carried a semi-automatic rifle, and that on that very

15 day at the same time, abandoned the houses in Bela Crkva heading towards

16 the brook of Belaje and the railway bridge. Are you telling me today that

17 he was not there at all on that day in Bela Crkva?

18 A. He was not in Bellacerka, neither in 1999, nor in 1998. He

19 returned there in 1999, but on the 5th of July, when the burial occurred.

20 Q. Mr. Popaj, did anyone else from your village belong to the group

21 carrying a weapon and was a part of the group that was hiding in the

22 vicinity of the bridge?

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please prepare 3D99, page

24 4.

25 Q. Mr. Popaj, did anyone else from your village carry a weapon and

Page 5696

1 was part of the group which was hiding next to the railway bridge?

2 A. I did not see any. There weren't any such people. The only

3 people that were there were people, civilians, elderly people, women, and

4 children.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Popaj, did you know that the KLA held positions in

6 the village of Celina on the 25th of March, 1999.

7 A. No, I did not know what happened there on the 25th.

8 Q. Did you know that even before the 25th of March, the KLA moved

9 about your village and in its vicinity, particularly in the area between

10 the -- between Bela Crkva and Zerze, with the river close by?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. Mr. Popaj, did you know that on the 21st of January, 1999, in an

13 ambush close to Bela Crkva, a KLA fighter was killed. This is 3D114,

14 paragraph 212.

15 Did you know that there was an incident on the 21st of January in

16 the vicinity of your village?

17 A. He was killed in Rahovec, Drenoc, not close to the village.

18 Q. Mr. Popaj, did you hear of an event on the 27th of February, 1999,

19 when there was an abduction of a Serb close to the village of Velika

20 Krusa, after which there was an exchange of fire between the KLA and the

21 Serb forces; the consequences of that were 400 to 600 people who fled

22 Krusa and went to Bela Crkva. There was 3D113, paragraph 1 -- paragraph

23 1.1.

24 A. No. I did not hear about that.

25 Q. Mr. Popaj, in your statement, you stated that you were never a KLA

Page 5697

1 member, but that there were three KLA members in your village and that

2 they were known to everyone. Can you name these three KLA members from

3 your village.

4 A. They were not in the village. They were somewhere else in Drenica

5 or Drenoc, but they were not in our village.

6 Q. Can you tell me their names?

7 A. I don't know the names. What I know is that three people had said

8 that they were from Bellacerka, but I don't know who they were.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, which paragraph is this?

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 2, paragraph 4 in

11 the English; and paragraph 4 in the B/C/S.

12 Q. Mr. Popaj, I will put a somewhat different question to you. Did

13 any of the three KLA soldiers bear the last name of Popaj?

14 A. I don't know their names.

15 Q. Very well.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could we have Exhibit 3D183 put on

17 the screen.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you do that, Mr. Visnjic.

19 Mr. Popaj, in your statement you say this: "There were three

20 members of the KLA in our village whom everyone knew."

21 What did you mean?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what I said is that three

23 people from my village were in the KLA. They had uniforms. But where

24 they were serving, whether in Drenica or in Drenoc.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Visnjic would like to know their names,

Page 5698

1 please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who they were.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what did you mean by saying: "Three members

4 of the KLA in our village whom everyone knew?"

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what they wrote down

6 there. But what I said is that people knew that there were three people

7 from our village in the KLA. And when I -- until 1998, I was up in the

8 mountains. And when I came back, somebody told me that three people were

9 with them.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And what names did they give you?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not given the name. I just

12 heard that they were three people from the village.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness said: "I was

14 in the mountains with cattle until 1998."

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask for

17 Exhibit 3D183 to be put on e-court. This is a document we received from

18 the Prosecution. And judging by the explanation given, it is a notebook

19 of Krasniqi Lulzim, who was commander of the 184th Brigade.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 124th Brigade.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to use two short excerpts

22 from the notebook and ask the witness about two incidents, two events.

23 Q. Mr. Popaj, did you know that the KLA provided security at the

24 entrances of the villages of Celine, Velika Krusa, Randobrava, and Pirane,

25 after the 16th of January, 1999?

Page 5699

1 A. What I know is that the KLA was only in Reti, Reti village.

2 Q. Mr. Popaj, do you know a person by the name of Bajram Popaj?

3 A. Yes, he is a co-villager of mine.

4 Q. And do you know a person named Ilir Popaj?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Popaj, I will now ask you, or rather, let me try to read out

7 to you an excerpt from this log-book where it says that Ilir Popaj and

8 Bajram Popaj plus two soldiers from Bela Crkva, when crossing toward

9 Jablanica, had to secure the elevations. Ilir Popaj and Bajram Popaj plus

10 ten soldiers from Bela Crkva, as it says in the text.

11 Mr. Popaj, according to the records kept by Jusuf Krasniqi, the

12 commander, apart from Ilir and Bajram Popaj, there were ten other soldiers

13 who were carrying out certain tasks for the KLA.

14 A. I don't know about that, but I can tell you that these were not in

15 our village, and as for Lulzim Krasniqi, I don't know who he is.

16 Q. Are you trying to tell me that Ilir Popaj and Bajram Popaj were

17 not in your village or that the KLA was not in your village?

18 A. I did not see them in my village. You say they were KLA members,

19 but I did not see them. Bajram Popaj used to work as an electrician in a

20 factory, but I do know both of them.

21 Q. Mr. Popaj, I'll now ask you at following.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Can we have Exhibit 3D184 on the

23 screen, please. And can the Albanian booth read out the first two lines

24 of this exhibit, or rather, to interpret it or translate it into English.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that counsel should read the

Page 5700

1 text.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is there any reason why you can't simply ask

3 the witness to read it or read it yourself? That would be the normal

4 course, Mr. Visnjic.

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid if I start

6 reading in Albanian, we'll have a big problem.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can't we ask the witness to read it?

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Popaj, do you see the first two lines?

10 A. I read it, but this occurred between Rahovec and Drenovc.

11 Q. I'm satisfied with your answer, but could you please read out the

12 first two lines.

13 A. I cannot read the first line; it's illegible. I can read the name

14 Skender Rexhepi was wounded, his friends Fitim Duraku, Mustafe Bajraktari,

15 and Xhavit Elshani.

16 Q. You know, Mr. Popaj, what event this refers to?

17 A. I don't know what event it refers to but there is a monument

18 honouring them on that location.

19 Q. If it's correct that it says in the first line that the event

20 occurred near Bela Crkva, am I wrong?

21 A. No, it's not close to Bela Crkva. It's about 9 kilometres away

22 from Bellacerka. The road from Bellacerka ...

23 Q. The road from Bela Crkva to?

24 A. To Drenoc and Potoqan, Rahovec. So it goes to Rahovec and it

25 turns at Drenoc.

Page 5701

1 Q. Do you know that on the occasion of this event the military police

2 of the KLA was carrying out certain activities which were carried out by

3 Xhavit Elshani and Selami Popaj. Do you know the name of Selami Popaj, a

4 member of the military police from Bela Crkva?

5 A. No. Selami Popaj could not have been a member of the military

6 police because he was the same age as my son, he was 14 years old. How

7 can a 14-year-old be a member of a military police unit?

8 Q. Do you know the name of Xhavit Elshani?

9 A. No, I don't know him. I don't know Xhavit Elshani. As for Selami

10 Popaj, I know him, he was my neighbour, and he was 14 at the time.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. It may be another person bearing the same

12 name. Let me ask you the following --

13 A. You cannot find two same names in the Popaj family in my village.

14 Q. Very well, Mr. Popaj. Did someone from your village or your

15 extended family undergo arrest, maltreatment, or were they killed by the

16 KLA? And this is Defence Exhibit 3D120?

17 A. Hidajet Popaj was killed but he was killed by the police, not by

18 the KLA in Pristina.

19 Q. What about Nesim Popaj?

20 A. Nesim Popaj is my brother, the doctor that you killed.

21 Q. Mr. Popaj, do you know - and I believe you should know this - that

22 according to statements made by the Albanians Sokol Morina, Exhibit 3D120,

23 and Isuf Berisha, Exhibit 3D119, in 1998 the KLA abducted, interrogated,

24 and ultimately liquidated Hidajet Popaj and Nesim Popaj, and this was

25 planned by the group which was in the village of Drenovac?

Page 5702

1 A. This is not true --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you answer that, do you mean Hidajet

3 Berisha?

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, Hidajet Popaj and

5 Isuf Berisha. The persons who gave the statement are Sokol Morina and

6 Isuf Berisha. The persons were liquidated by the KLA, Hidajet Popaj and

7 Nesim Popaj.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nesim Popaj is my brother, the

9 doctor. Mesim Popaj, however, he's a relative of mine, and he is still

10 alive. Hidajet Popaj was killed by the Serbian police in Pristina, and we

11 found his body last year. He was visiting his mother at the hospital when

12 he was killed. If you are referring to Mesim Popaj, he is alive and I can

13 bring him here. As I said before, you cannot find members of Popaj

14 family, two members with the same name.

15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation].

16 Q. Mr. Popaj, evidently the KLA and the Serbian investigation organs

17 are wrong, according to you, when noting down names; however, I'll ask you

18 the following now. In your statement, when referring to your sojourn in

19 the village of Nagavc, you stated that you saw parts of a bomb that landed

20 in the village, and that you saw an inscription in Cyrillic on that bomb.

21 Can you tell me what Cyrillic letters you saw, sir.

22 A. It is a clear proof that the fragments of the bomb exist… are there,

23 we have them… they were in the Nagafc village, where the bombing occurred. We

24 have them, the fragments of the shell, I have them at home. The bombing

25 occurred on 2 April, at the hour after midnight… at 2… We have the

Page 5703

1 shells there. The investigators themselves have seen them.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, do you know anything about this?

3 MS. MOELLER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I was checking something

4 else about --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the witness is saying that he still has

6 the --

7 MS. MOELLER: Oh, yes, I'm seeing the --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: -- shells he calls them. He's also called them

9 fragments of a bomb. These are said to have Cyrillic writing on them and

10 the investigators had a chance to see them.

11 MS. MOELLER: I am not aware that we have any artefacts of that

12 nature, but I would need to investigate that further. I haven't seen such

13 evidence myself.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: When was it, Mr. Popaj, the investigators had a

15 chance to see the fragments of the bomb?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In June 1999. Feim Elshani took

17 these fragments, and he was with the members of KFOR or investigators - I

18 don't know exactly what they were - who inspected these fragments and took

19 photographs of them. But I don't remember whether I mentioned this in my

20 statement.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And you say that they are still available?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we do have fragments of the

23 bomb.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the Office of the Prosecutor has staff in

25 Pristina, and it may be that the staff in Pristina have a camera, and

Page 5704

1 maybe this could be clarified. It seems a simple exercise to me, but I

2 may be oversimplifying it.

3 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, we will definitely check that out.

4 And I remember the other witness from Bela Crkva, Mr. Zhuniqi talked about

5 having given -- or that this material went to KFOR. So we will inquire

6 about it.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: But this witness is staying that he has it in his

8 own house.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it in my house, but it

10 is with Feim Elshani in Nagavc. Because they refused to remove it from

11 there, it is still there. The fragments of the bomb are with Feim Elshani

12 in Nagavc.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated]

14 It's the interpretation that creates these problems.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: It's page 84, lines 17 and 18, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. "I have them in my house." How do we get

17 that sort of interpretation? I suppose I'm asking a rhetorical question

18 here.

19 Did you say, Mr. Popaj, that you had these fragments in your

20 house?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are in the house of Feim

22 Elshani, where they were found in his courtyard. He was a witness here as

23 well in 2002. We found the fragments of the bomb together with him in

24 Nagavc village.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, hopefully this will be further investigated

Page 5705

1 by the Prosecution.

2 Mr. Visnjic.

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Microphone not activated].

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I don't have the exact page, but as

6 the witness has broached this topic from the Milosevic case, but he said

7 that the KFOR had taken those fragments. And my last question for Mr.

8 Popaj.

9 Q. Was Feim Elshani a member of the KLA?

10 A. He was 70 years old; how could he be a member of the KLA? When

11 the bombs fell on his house, his brother was -- son was killed. Now he's

12 76 years old. He couldn't have been a member of the KLA then.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have given the OTP

14 more precise information as to where to look for the fragments of the

15 bomb. I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we change at the last moment. Mr.

19 Ackerman should continue after Mr. Visnjic.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. The first thing I'd like

22 to do, Your Honour, is ask that you have that part of the transcript

23 checked, 84, lines 15 and 16, to see if what we have is a translation

24 error or if that's what the witness actually said. I'd like to know that,

25 even for the purpose of cross-examination, if it could be checked that

Page 5706

1 quickly; I don't know if it can.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be available for you tomorrow.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

5 Q. Mr. Popaj, I think I have very few questions for you, but there's

6 one matter that I really would like to make an effort to clarify and I may

7 or may not succeed. The statement you gave to the Office of the

8 Prosecutor was given over a three-day period in June of 1999. You were

9 interviewed by a -- an investigator by the name of Nigel Stewart. You

10 recall that, don't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And apparently that interview was given in your village, Bela

13 Crkva?

14 A. Yes, Bellacerka.

15 Q. And it's the case, isn't it, that once that was completed on the

16 14th of June, that there was a translator there by the name of Algent

17 Mezini, who then read that statement back to you word for word, page for

18 page, and asked you to make a determination as to whether or not it was

19 correct. That happened also, didn't it?

20 A. Well, I stated in my statement what I saw and experienced.

21 Q. That's not my question. My question was: Was the statement on

22 the last day there, the 14th of June, read back to you word for word and

23 you were given an opportunity to tell them whether or not what they had

24 written was correct. That happened, didn't it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5707

1 Q. And at that time you agreed that what you had said in your

2 statement was correct, didn't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The next time that you had an opportunity to review that I think

5 was when you came to the Tribunal to give your testimony in the Milosevic

6 trial, which you gave on the 10th of June, 2002, starting on the 10th of

7 June, and I think when you came here, at that time they had a copy of your

8 statement in the Albanian language. And the authorities asked you to read

9 it and tell them whether it was correct or not. That happened, didn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you were given adequate time to read it, and if you had any

12 changes to make, you were given an opportunity to make those changes,

13 weren't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then you came here to testify in this case a few days ago, and I

16 believe you were shown your statement in the Albanian language again and

17 you were given an opportunity to read it and take as much time as you

18 wanted and to advise the prosecuting authorities if there was anything in

19 there that was not the case. Is that true?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So if I'm counting correct, on three different occasions you had

22 an opportunity to review this statement and make determinations as to

23 whether the language contained in there is the truth of what you -- of the

24 evidence you want to give to this Tribunal. That's true?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5708

1 Q. Now, I want to talk to you about these tanks that you say came

2 into your village at 2.00 a.m. on the morning of, I think, the 24th of

3 March or the 25th of March. And you told Mr. Visnjic in the

4 cross-examination today that three of the tanks left the village but two

5 stayed at the school until sometime in May, the 4th of May. That's what

6 you told him today, wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, in this statement that you reviewed three times, here's what

9 you said: "I saw the five tanks move off and take up positions on a hill

10 overlooking Celine. I then told my family that the tanks had moved off."

11 Now, how can it be that you reviewed that statement three times and didn't

12 get that right? Or is what you said today wrong?

13 A. The tanks moved on, but the shooting continued from the hill.

14 Q. So what you said about the two tanks staying at the school until

15 the 4th of May was untrue?

16 A. That is true because until the 4th of May, I was in Xerxe. On the

17 4th of May, the inhabitants of Xerxe left in the direction of Potoqan.

18 The last houses that were set aflame were the house of Muharrem Zhuniqi on

19 the 4th of May. They took my truck and everything else.

20 Q. All right. You've talked about that enough. Now, Mr. Popaj, you

21 took an oath before you started testifying here today. You remember doing

22 that, don't you?

23 A. Yes, and I'm telling the truth --

24 Q. No you're not; you can't possibly be. So you're going to have to

25 make a decision here. Is it the truth, as you say in your statement: "I

Page 5709

1 saw the five tanks move off and take up positions on a hill overlooking

2 Celine. I then told my family that the tanks moved off." Is that the

3 truth that you're telling here or is the truth you're telling here that

4 three tanks moved off and two stayed at the school? You can't tell both

5 of those; you have to pick one.

6 A. I didn't say all the tanks moved off. I said that three of the

7 tanks entered the village in the direction of the mosque and then set off

8 in the direction of the hill. I said that the tanks from the vicinity of

9 the mosque moved off, not those in the schoolyard.

10 Q. Mr. Popaj, I think -- I fear we've run out of time for today, but

11 we will have a copy of your statement for you to look at tomorrow, and

12 that's in fact what you did say, that the five tanks moved off?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we have to stop now, don't we, Your Honour?

14 JUDGE BONOMY: We do, but I doubt if what you're proposing is

15 going to be productive. Your point is made, I think, Mr. Ackerman, and

16 the witness has given his explanation. If you feel it's necessary to

17 pursue it further, that's a matter for you.

18 Can I just, before we finish, Mr. Popaj, ask you this: When the

19 tanks moved off, where did they go?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The tanks went in the direction of

21 the hill above Celine in order to be able to see Celine, Bellacerka, and

22 Nagavc. This location is called the Pajata e Mullabaceve.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Popaj, we need to stop there for today and we

24 will resume your evidence tomorrow, that will be at 9.00. You need to be

25 back here ready to resume giving evidence at 9.00.

Page 5710

1 Meanwhile, you must have no discussion with anybody, anybody at

2 all, about your evidence, that's either the evidence you've given or the

3 evidence you may given tomorrow. You can talk about anything else to

4 anybody at all, but nothing about the evidence must be discussed with

5 anyone else. Now, the --

6 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. The usher will now show you the way

8 from the courtroom. Thank you.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: 9.00 tomorrow.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

13 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.