Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9264

1 Monday, 29 January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, you've made a Rule 70 application to

6 us. There's a measure of urgency about it. Unless there was any dissent

7 from counsel for the accused, then we would order responses to that by

8 Wednesday. You've also made an application for additional protective

9 measures for K79. When do you envisage that witness commencing testimony?

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we thought that this witness would go

11 into tomorrow. Witness Vollebaek was scheduled to start Wednesday. He

12 doesn't arrive until late Tuesday, I think. So, we might run short

13 tomorrow and then K79 would follow Vollebaek probably starting on

14 Thursday.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again, we would order responses to that

16 motion by I think Tuesday evening in that case, so that we can look at it

17 first thing on Wednesday just in case it's necessary to advance that

18 witness's testimony.

19 Your next witness, Mr. Hannis.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. Our next witness will be

21 K90, 9-0. Your Honour, this witness will testify as both viva voce and a

22 92 ter based on his written statement. We filed a supplemental

23 information on Friday and indicated that we were going to make an oral

24 motion at this time, Your Honour, to supplement the original 65 ter to

25 lead evidence on some of that information provided in the supplemental

Page 9265

1 information.

2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I regret, I don't have this document, Mr. Hannis.

4 All of this must have been happening very late on Friday.

5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So one's being printed just now. Just give me a

7 moment.

8 MR. HANNIS: Okay. While we're waiting on that, Your Honour, I

9 can provide you with some additional information. This is a witness for

10 whom protective measures of pseudonym, image, and voice distortion was

11 granted. His evidence pertains to paragraphs 25 through 32, 72(H), and

12 75(H). And with regard to his written statement, Your Honour, paragraphs

13 3 through 23 talk about activities in Bosnia in 1992 through 1995.

14 I don't intend to ask him any questions about that evidence. I

15 only left it in the statement for the purposes of showing this witness's

16 background in the military and as it pertains to any weight you might give

17 his evidence about military procedures, uniforms, insignia, weapons, et

18 cetera.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it that it's -- the contents of paragraph 8

20 of this supplemental information sheet that you invite us to allow you to

21 lead evidence on?

22 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. This was a follow-up to the

23 paragraph in his statement where he said he had additional information

24 about incidents in Kosovo that I mentioned last week.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 9266

1 Is there opposition to that?

2 Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't have any, and I don't know

4 about my colleagues. I have no opposition to that. I do, however, have

5 opposition to the suggestion that paragraphs 3 through I think it's 23 --

6 3 through 23 should be left in the 65 ter statement. They're totally

7 irrelevant to any issue in this case at all.

8 They go way beyond providing background about his military career

9 which could be elicited in, I would say, three minutes of direct

10 examination. So I would ask that paragraphs 3 through 23 be stricken from

11 the 65 ter statement -- I'm sorry, 92 ter statement.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, we agree with the submission that it

14 would be unduly prejudicial to include paragraphs 3 to 23 so far as they

15 relate to the events that took place. There would be a temptation to

16 compare some of these, indeed, to events in Kosovo.

17 On the other hand, we agree with Mr. Ackerman also that it is

18 relevant to know the military experience of the witness and that there are

19 references in there just to his experience in general, but, for example,

20 there is also reference to paramilitaries; and to some extent, some of

21 that evidence and how he recognised them and so on would be relevant.

22 So we invite you to lead that as oral evidence, but we also order

23 you to produce a statement that excludes paragraphs 3 to 23.

24 MR. HANNIS: We will do that, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 9267

1 Now we can have the witness. We need to go into closed session

2 for the witness to come into court.

3 And, of course, we will allow you to lead evidence from the

4 supplemental information sheet.

5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

6 [Closed session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Good morning, sir. Good morning, sir. In the interests of

15 security, you will be known to us as Witness K90. We will not be

16 referring -- do you hear me now?

17 In the interests of security, you will be referred to as Witness

18 K90. We will not be referring to your name at any stage; that is no

19 discourtesy. It is in your own personal interests. Would you now please

20 make the solemn declaration to speak the truth by reading aloud the

21 document which will now be placed before you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

25 Now, what are the documents you are arranging there. Can you tell

Page 9268

1 me, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my statement.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help me, Mr. Hannis, with the document that

4 the witness has --

5 MR. HANNIS: From here, Your Honour, it looks like a copy of his

6 statement.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: We -- I think you should --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you made notes on this statement yourself, or

10 is it a clear copy of the statement?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a copy.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I think what you should do is just put that

13 document aside. If anyone wishes you to look at your statement, a copy

14 will be provided for you.

15 Now, the first counsel this morning to ask you questions will be

16 for the Prosecution, and that's Mr. Hannis.

17 Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examination by Mr. Hannis:

22 Q. And I will begin, Witness K90, by showing you some documents, and

23 we will deal with that first by handing you Exhibit P2631. Sir, this is a

24 document containing personal information about your name and your date of

25 birth. I want you to just look at it and read it to yourself and then

Page 9269

1 tell us if that information is correct, yes or no.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we would tender that pseudonym sheet.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and may that be filed under seal as the ordinary

7 process.



10 Q. Next I would like to hand you two documents. Exhibit P2391 is

11 your statement to the ICTY dated December 2002 and P2640 is a redacted

12 version of that where we have blacked out the personal identifying

13 information about you. Could you look first at the unredacted version,

14 P2391, and tell me if you recognise it as your statement.

15 A. Yes. Yes, the one that you and I did not see during our

16 preparation or proofing.

17 Q. Okay. Did you have a chance to -- did you have a chance to review

18 it and make some changes?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand that comment, Mr. Hannis, "the

21 one that you and I did not see." What does that mean?

22 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I think I know what that refers to.

23 Q. Witness K90, you said "the one you and I did not see." Are you

24 referring to Exhibit 2640, the one that has the redactions on it, parts of

25 it had been blacked out. Is that the one that you and I did not see at

Page 9270

1 the time of the proofing?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, with regard to the unredacted one, the one that is completely

4 clear, you said you made some changes during the proofing. I want to ask

5 you about those now. At paragraph 28, you indicated that we should change

6 the reference to the 542nd Armoured Mechanised Brigade to the 549th

7 Motorised Brigade. Is that correct?

8 A. That's correct. That's correct.

9 Q. And in paragraph 39, there was a reference to a man who worked in

10 the municipal building. You told us on Friday that that was not correct

11 and should not be in there. Is that right?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. With regard to paragraph 41, you were talking about one of your

14 unit's task being to tell people to move out, but you wanted to add it was

15 not your unit's primary task to do that. Is that correct?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. In paragraph 43, it originally read that you did this in most of

18 the villages around Djakovica. You told us that should be changed to read

19 "some of the villages."

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And in paragraph 52, where you were talking about seeing scores of

22 displaced Albanian civilians walking past your command post, you indicated

23 that that number was more than 500.

24 A. Well, numbers are a relative thing. Now it's a question of

25 bidding. Was it 300? Was it 500? There were a lot of people. The

Page 9271

1 number can be 300; it can be 500. I cannot say with certainty whether it

2 was 300 or 500, but the fact remains that there were a lot of people

3 there.

4 Q. Should we correct that then, because currently we said it should

5 be changed to more than 500. Are you not comfortable with that?

6 A. Let it be around 500.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'll make a note of that. Now -- and then you

8 told us about some additional incidents that we'll talk about later. But

9 with regard to those changes we've just talked about, having noted those,

10 can you attest now to the Judges that your written statement accurately

11 reflects your declaration or your evidence and it is what you would say

12 today if you were asked those questions again, the same questions about

13 it?

14 A. Well, let me just find this. There are some imprecisions in this

15 statement; and as we looked at that, we corrected some of them. Let me

16 just find this concerning the relocation of people or the number of

17 persons who got killed at the site and a few other things that you and I

18 discussed on Friday. That is to say, let me just find this. Was it

19 paragraph 41? I think it was. Yes. Paragraph 41 through 45. There are

20 some imprecisions there.

21 Q. Do you want to tell us what those are?

22 A. For example, my unit had the task to order the Albanian villagers

23 to leave their homes. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may we -- may I intercede at this point.

Page 9272

1 I had a concern regarding identity and naming his direct superiors may

2 lead to his identification. I would like to go into private session and

3 redact that portion where we mention a couple of names.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any objection to that course of action?

5 Very well, we shall do that.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, I'm sorry I interrupted before. You were telling us

25 about your unit had the task to order villagers to leave their homes, and

Page 9273

1 I think you were saying this was ordered by your commander. What did you

2 want to explain that you say is an imprecision in your statement in

3 paragraphs 41 through 45 about that?

4 A. May I?

5 Q. Please.

6 A. On Friday I said to you, and today I'm going to say to this

7 honourable Trial Chamber, that what is written here is not quite precise;

8 that is to say, that my major never ordered the expulsion of villagers,

9 that is to say, to have them expelled to Albania.

10 The order was always that these people should be directed towards

11 Djakovica and the first villages near Djakovica. For what reason? I

12 cannot go into that. Now, further on, if later on, we, the soldiers on

13 that territory, allow them to go back to their homes and take their

14 personal belongings for themselves and their families, that is, that is

15 not expulsion.

16 Q. Was there anything else?

17 A. I beg your pardon, yes. Yes. The population was not relocated

18 until the cluster bombs started falling. That's what I wanted to say.

19 Q. And do you recall when that was?

20 A. Well, around mid-April, roughly, 1999. No. I cannot recall the

21 exact date, but from mid-April.

22 Q. Was there anything else you wanted to correct or clarify?

23 A. Not in this part. But when you start examining me, then if I have

24 something to raise I will, yes, so that we wouldn't read out the ...

25 Q. Okay. With those clarifications noted, now are you satisfied that

Page 9274

1 your written statement accurately reflects your declaration and is the

2 answers that you would give if asked about those same matters today?

3 A. For the most part, yes, with small corrections, yes.

4 Q. Well, can you think of any other small corrections you want to

5 bring to our attention now?

6 A. Just a second, please. Just a second, please. Yes. Yes,

7 paragraph 61.

8 Q. Yes, sir. What is that?

9 A. I returned to the major and reported what I had seen. He started

10 to swear and was very angry because this was happening. I personally saw

11 at least four groups of men being taken to the compound, and they number

12 from five to over ten men.

13 What is correct is that only the last group had between eight and

14 ten men. It would be one, two, three, so you cannot say exactly that

15 every group numbered ten men. There were smaller groups, and the last one

16 numbered eight to ten men; that is to say, that the last group had eight

17 to ten men.

18 Q. Okay. Anything else?

19 A. Not for the time being; but if there is anything, I will say.

20 Q. All right. Thank you.

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in light of that, perhaps I'll move to

22 tender his statement at the end when I've identified whether there are any

23 additional clarifications.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay, Mr. Hannis. Thank you.


Page 9275

1 Q. Witness K90, you tell us in your statement that you initially did

2 your mandatory national service in 1980. At that time what was your

3 military job? Were you an infantry man or what did you do in 1980?

4 A. I was in the border unit, infantry, in fact, infantry. The border

5 control unit.

6 Q. And we read in your statement that you volunteered for the army

7 and you fought in Croatia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You tell us at that time you didn't receive any training about the

10 Geneva Convention and Rules of War. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And after that you later, in May 1992, became a professional

13 soldier and part of a military police unit. Did you have any training

14 about the Geneva Convention and Rules of War at that time?

15 A. Absolutely.

16 Q. Now, can you explain the difference for me between --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: What does that mean?


19 Q. Could you explain to the Judge what you mean by "absolutely."

20 A. This means that we received training on all international

21 conventions relating to Law of War. This was a serious unit, and it was

22 the kind of unit where you couldn't be without undergoing such training.

23 Q. That leads me to my next question. Can you explain the difference

24 between a volunteer, which you were in Croatia, and a professional

25 soldier, that you were after May 1992.

Page 9276

1 A. Well, there's no comparing the two. I cannot draw any comparisons

2 because the latter was a professional unit where you had the chain of

3 command, the system of issuing orders, subordination was in place;

4 whereas, the former was something completely different. It was also a

5 part of the former Yugoslav military, but there were no officers, no

6 commanding officers, in the field.

7 You had reservists, just as we were. They were in command of

8 those units and that's just not the same. It cannot be the same. There

9 was no discipline, not to the extent that existed in the unit where I

10 served as a professional soldier. So for all intents and purposes, no

11 comparison can be made.

12 Q. And when you were in a volunteer unit, to who -- not a name, but

13 what rank did your commander have, if any?

14 A. I think he was a colonel, but I only saw him twice. I don't think

15 that I would be able to recognise him at all. I don't think that he ever

16 came to this area where we were. He had his command post, and he never

17 left it, at least I didn't see him.

18 Q. Did you have any major or captain or lieutenant who was in the

19 field with your unit that was commanding?

20 A. I think there was a captain, but I can't now recall. I think he

21 was a captain in the reserve force, so I might be able to recall his name

22 if I really put in a lot of effort but I'm not sure.

23 Q. When you were in Kosovo in 1999, did you see any volunteer units

24 in Kosovo?

25 A. Well, it says here 1990.

Page 9277

1 Q. I meant 1999. Did you see any volunteer units in Kosovo?

2 A. Sir, Your Honours, I was in Kosovo as a volunteer; but in the area

3 of responsibility of my battalion, there were other volunteers. None of

4 those volunteers ever, ever was able to operate outside the chain of

5 command and the system of subordination that existed in the army; never,

6 ever, it never happened.

7 Q. Now, in 1992 through 1995, when you were serving as a military

8 policeman, did you see action in Bosnia?

9 A. Unfortunately, yes.

10 Q. Now, you tell us that you left the JNA in 1995; and now going to

11 paragraph 24 of your statement, you tell us you drove a truck and made

12 trips to Kosovo six days a week.

13 A. I have to apologise. You said the JNA. Not the JNA. The Army of

14 Yugoslavia.

15 Q. You're correct. My mistake.

16 A. And I didn't leave it. My contract expired and I went to another

17 job.

18 Q. And from 1995 to 1999, when you volunteered, you worked driving a

19 truck to Kosovo six days a week?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And in the course of that job, did you become familiar with the

22 main roads and bigger towns in Kosovo?

23 A. Well, I know Kosovo very well. I got to know it then. I know it

24 still. All the major towns and also some of the smaller towns there, such

25 as Orahovac, Lipljane, the villages around Prizren, Djakovica, Pristina,

Page 9278

1 Kosovska Mitrovica. So I do know this area very well.

2 Q. Now, in paragraph 57, you tell us about volunteering. When was

3 that or how soon after the NATO bombing began was it when you joined up?

4 A. It says in my statement that when my brother was called up, that I

5 volunteered. But in fact, I went to Kosovo before he was called up. I

6 was in Kosovo on the 27th of March already, which means that I left my

7 place of birth on the 25th.

8 On the 26th, I went to the unit that sent volunteers down to

9 Kosovo. It says -- actually, the towns are specified in the statement.

10 Were you able to find it, or should I perhaps specify the towns? Can I do

11 that in open session or --

12 Q. It's in your statement in paragraph 20, 26, and 27.

13 A. So on the 27th, I was already in Kosovo.

14 Q. And by what date were you actually in uniform and attached to your

15 unit, if you recall?

16 A. I put on the uniform on the 26th, in the afternoon.

17 Q. And you mentioned that the commanding officer of your unit was a

18 major who you've named in private session, and you've also mentioned a

19 lieutenant. In your statement, you tell us that your 10- to 12-man unit

20 was under him.

21 What specifically was your unit? Did it have a name or a title?

22 And maybe we need to mention that in private session?

23 MR. HANNIS: Could we go into private session for a moment --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may say something while we're

25 still in open session. If I may explain something to the Trial Chamber

Page 9279

1 regarding your question about my arrival in Kosovo, or do you -- I don't

2 know. Yeah.


4 Q. Sure, if you want to.

5 A. Yes. I do want, because it's very important. When we got to

6 Kosovo, it was already night-time, in fact, we arrived in Djakovica. At

7 the command post, there were quite a few buses with volunteer, and our

8 battalion commander was there to receive us personally. Since he knew

9 that only the volunteers were on those buses, no regular army, he said the

10 following and I quote verbatim. Can you hear me?

11 "Gentlemen, this is not Kosovo, this is not Bosnia, orders must be

12 complied with. There will be no arbitrary actions. Those who engage in

13 any such acts will be punished very severely." So we all took that very

14 seriously.

15 Now we come to your question. What was the criterion they used to

16 pick the ten of us or so? But I think that on the basis of our service in

17 the previous units they picked us. I think that was the criterion that

18 they applied. So this is in answer to your question that you asked.

19 Q. Let me ask you two things. One, you said when the battalion

20 commander greeted you, he said: "Gentlemen, this is not Kosovo, not

21 Bosnia." Did you mean --

22 A. No, I'm sorry. "This is not Croatia, this is not Bosnia."

23 Q. What did you understand that to mean by him saying that this was

24 not Croatia and this was not Bosnia, and that orders must be complied

25 with. Had it been different in Croatia and in Bosnia?

Page 9280

1 A. Well, an experienced officer such as my commander knew quite well

2 that not all of us came to Kosovo with the same kind of intention, and

3 that's why he warned us in this manner. Not all people came to Kosovo to

4 defend it.

5 There were some drug addicts there, for instance, who got there to

6 steal things. There were all kinds of people. This man volunteers and

7 you cannot prohibit him from going because you don't know who that person

8 is, but then he warned us there would be no arbitrary acts and any

9 attempts to do so would be punished severely. The chain of command was to

10 be sacrosanct.

11 Q. Now, can we go into private session for a moment. I want to ask

12 you a question about your particular unit and the men in it.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9281











11 Pages 9281-9284 redacted. Private session















Page 9285

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 If we could show the witness Exhibit P1323.

16 Q. Witness K90, I want to ask you about some insignia. This should

17 come up on the computer screen in front of you. And I don't know if it's

18 easy for you -- easy enough for you to see on the screen or if you would

19 prefer to look at a hard copy, which I can have the usher hand you.

20 A. I can see it. I can see it.

21 Q. Do you recognise any of those insignia on the page; and if so, can

22 you tell us by number which one you're talking about and to what group or

23 unit it referred?

24 A. I assume that the insignia marked as 1 is the insignia of the 63rd

25 Paratroopers Brigade. Number -- second is the military police. The third

Page 9286

1 is the standard Yugoslav Army insignia. 6 and 7 are the police insignia

2 dating from any period, in fact, it's impossible to determine the period.

3 But some of these insignia may have been worn in Kosovo, but I'm sure that

4 4, 3, that these were worn in Kosovo.

5 Q. I don't think you said before what number 4 was, if you know.

6 A. That's the military police.

7 Q. And number 2 I think you said also was military police?

8 A. Yes, number 2 could be the military police. It could also be --

9 well, who knows. I can't really recall. From the 1990s until the year

10 2000 when the Army of Yugoslavia was established, the insignia changed

11 practically every year. Many units wore different insignia, but they were

12 in the same branch, in fact.

13 So you had all kinds of stuff, but these are the typical insignia.

14 Number three is the standard VJ patch, four was military police. I was in

15 the military police, but I don't recall wearing the patch marked as 5. I

16 don't know what period this dates from.

17 Q. In 1999, what patches did you have on your uniform?

18 A. I think we had the Army of Yugoslavia patch marked as 3 and the

19 number 4, and we wore it on a black beret or a black cap. This was the

20 standard-issue uniform, if that is what you mean.

21 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the second page of the exhibit. I

22 suddenly have the transcript up on my e-court page instead of the exhibit.

23 I don't know if it's a technical difficulty or ...

24 Q. Now, can you tell us anything about numbers 8 through 13?

25 A. Well, 8 and 9 I saw in the war in Croatia, but not in Kosovo; I'm

Page 9287

1 sure of that. In fact, I didn't see any of these patches in Kosovo; I'm

2 sure of that. I'm sure because in the area of responsibility of my

3 battalion those patches were not worn. They were only the army patches.

4 Q. What about number 13?

5 A. I don't think that this one was present there, but I can't really

6 see it. It's possible that it was worn, but who knows. Well, if it's a

7 PJP sign, it probably was present there because PJP units were there in

8 the field.

9 MR. HANNIS: Could we now go to Exhibit 1324.

10 Q. Witness K90, next I want to show you a page or two with some

11 weapons on that.

12 A. Yes, fine.

13 Q. Can you recognise those? Going from 1 to 4?

14 A. Well, yes, I can. Number 4 is Hechler. Number 3 is a

15 submachine-gun Skorpion, then we have the 82-millimetre mortar. And the

16 one up there, that's cannon. I don't know the calibre. I wasn't in the

17 artillery, so I can't determine the calibre.

18 Q. What weapon did you --

19 A. Number 1 on the image 1.

20 Q. What kind of weapon did you have as a military policeman?

21 A. I had an automatic rifle, standard-issue automatic rifle.

22 Q. With regard to weapons number 3 and 4, do you know which units

23 used those?

24 A. I know about the Skorpions. They were used by tank units. That

25 is their standard-issue weapon because they cannot carry rifles. Well, as

Page 9288

1 for the Hechler, well, hm, it was people who acted as security officers

2 for high-ranking officers who had them or state VIPs, if they would come

3 in.

4 I didn't see any such people, but -- well, perhaps these security

5 people wore Hechlers or carried Hechlers. But usually in our country,

6 people who had Hechlers were working in the field of security and then

7 they would go out into the field and they carry Hechlers. As for the

8 Skorpions, it's members of the tank units for sure.

9 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page of this exhibit.

10 Q. Can you tell us about items 1 through 5 on this page, if you

11 recognise any of them.

12 A. Classical infantry weaponry. 5 is an M-84 machine-gun. Number 4

13 is a sniper rifle, semi-automatic; then this is a sub-machine-gun T-3.

14 And these are automatic rifles with different kinds -- well, I cannot

15 guess as far as their numbers are concerned, but at any rate this is

16 classical infantry weaponry. There is nothing special here. It's

17 standard-issue army weaponry.

18 Q. And was yours like any of these?

19 A. Number 1.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. HANNIS: Next I'd like to show the witness Exhibit 1325.

22 Q. Witness K90, next I'll show you some vehicles and ask if you can

23 help us with these. How about numbers 1 to 4, do you recognise any of

24 these and can you tell us who used them?

25 A. Well, I can just guess. Number 1 is an APC. Number 4 is a Praga.

Page 9289

1 As for the rest, well, these are vehicles that we did not use for the most

2 part; my unit didn't.

3 As for number 2, well, I can't see. It looks like a BVP, but it's

4 not. No, actually, it looks like a BOV. It could be a BOV since it has

5 these holes on the side; one, two, three, and then times 2, that would be

6 six. It could be a BOV under number 2.

7 Now, under number 3, who knows, maybe a kind of transporter; APC,

8 1 and 3; and then 4 would be a Praga, and 2 would be a BOV, combat

9 armoured vehicle.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page.

12 Q. How about 5 through 8?

13 A. Well, 8 is a truck, TAM 110 classical military truck for the

14 transportation of equipment and personnel. 7 is a Pinzgauer. Now, 6 can

15 be a T-55 tank, and 5 can be 84. Now, maybe I made a mistake. It depends

16 on which one is which. 5 is a bit lower, so that could be 84 -- well, you

17 know what, I'm not very knowledgeable about tanks.

18 Q. Okay.

19 MR. HANNIS: Could we go to the next page.

20 Q. Anything you can tell us about 9 through 12?

21 A. I could tell you about 10. That is a BVP, combat vehicle of the

22 police. As for the rest, I can guess, but it's pointless, isn't it.

23 Q. I don't want you to guess.

24 A. We didn't use that.

25 MR. HANNIS: Can we go to the next page.

Page 9290

1 Q. Did you see any of these being used by any of the forces in Kosovo

2 in 1999?

3 A. 13, if I can see right, is a Puch. That's a vehicle in which

4 officers travelled then and now. Nothing special. As for the other

5 vehicles, I don't know. 15 is a Hummer, as far as I can see, and the

6 other one is a Land Rover, as far as I can see, but we didn't have any

7 such vehicles. We didn't have them and we didn't use them; as for the

8 Puchs, yes.

9 Q. Next I would like to show you Exhibit 1592 and ask you a question

10 about that. Can you -- based on the uniforms and the insignia, can you

11 tell us anything about what unit these two might belong to?

12 A. Your Honours, Your Honours, the picture we see now shows soldiers

13 who I assume had this picture taken for their own personal use. After

14 all -- well, cross-bows. Cross-bows were not carried by members of units

15 who were out in the field every day.

16 Judging by the vehicle they have, it could be either a Pinzgauer

17 or a Puch. Sirens, the bars they have, it could be a Puch, but the

18 uniform is classical military uniform. Now, we cannot see what unit it

19 is. Nothing special.

20 Q. How about Exhibit 1596. This is the next one I want to show you,

21 K90. Can you tell us anything about what unit or what force these men

22 might belong to based on their uniforms?

23 A. Well, judging by what we can see here and judging by the

24 appearance of these people and what they're wearing and their haircuts and

25 their behaviour, well -- but in the background I see something that could

Page 9291

1 be a reserve police unit. But I think -- well, it's pointless to comment

2 on this.

3 Q. You can't tell us anything about what unit they might belong to or

4 what force?

5 A. They belong to the reserve police force.

6 Q. Next --

7 A. I assume, because I don't think that an active-duty officer would

8 allow himself to have men like these under his command. I mean, as for my

9 own criteria regarding the military, this simply doesn't fit in. I mean,

10 things like this -- what is written here on his sleeve? "Police." But

11 the reserve policemen wore the same kind of uniforms like policemen, so

12 it's debatable. But it's certainly not a regular unit.

13 Q. Let me show you next Exhibit P1599.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you move off that photograph, do you

15 know the significance of the ribbons they're wearing? 070129.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For recognition purposes, Your

17 Honour. When they go out on mission in order to distinguish themselves

18 from other men, from other units, or from the enemy or God knows who.

19 That's why they wore these ribbons, but not all of them all the time.

20 The question is where this photograph was taken. I saw things

21 like this in Bosnia, in Croatia, but I see that it says "police" on these

22 uniforms. So let us clear this up. Policemen of Republika Srpska wore

23 similar or almost identical uniforms like our policemen. So it is

24 possible that this photograph was taken in Bosnia. It could easily happen

25 that that was the case, because in Kosovo you could hardly find a forest

Page 9292

1 [Realtime transcript read in error "force"] like this anywhere.


3 Q. Did you see reserve policemen in Kosovo during your time there in

4 1999?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Just for the sake of clarity, Your Honour, the

7 witness said on the 28, 10, instead of force he said "forest." It's very

8 hard to find a "forest" like this anywhere in Kosovo.

9 MR. HANNIS: I agree that's what I understood.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: And it said "force" in the transcript. Thank you.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: It makes a big difference to the sense. Thank you.


13 Q. K90 --


15 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: K90, one question about an earlier photograph, the

18 one with the two men on the vehicle. We just saw the top of the vehicle.

19 The net masks on the faces, were these standard uniform?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, these

21 photographs, or rather, the photographs that you spoke about just now was

22 taken so that they could showoff to other people, their relatives, their

23 friends, whatever. Because it was just made up so nicely, wasn't it? So

24 it could not have been taken for any other purpose.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 9293

1 Mr. Hannis.

2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

3 Q. I don't know if you answered my question about -- did you see

4 reserve -- did you see reserve police in Kosovo in 1999?

5 A. I told you, yes.

6 Q. Let me show you next Exhibit P1600. What can you tell us about

7 these men? What force or what unit would they belong to based on the

8 uniforms and insignia?

9 A. I don't know. What a miserable unit. They also got all dressed

10 up here so that they could showoff afterwards to the folks back home what

11 big heroes they were and what they looked like.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak in

13 the microphone, interpreter's note.


15 Q. K90, the interpreters are asking you to be sure to speak into the

16 microphone when you answer. Can you comment on the uniforms and the

17 insignia --

18 A. I do apologise.

19 Q. -- what is this? Which force would these men belong to?

20 A. I cannot say on the basis of the uniforms. See, if you were to

21 look at their caps that is something completely -- well, I don't know.

22 It's not identical, but I said a few moments ago what a miserable unit and

23 the poor unit that they belonged to.

24 Q. Would they be army or army reserve?

25 A. I'm not sure -- well, you know what, let me tell you. When you

Page 9294

1 say the "reserve army," "army reserve," if you think that this context of

2 the army -- I mean, as for the unit I was in, there wasn't much of a

3 difference between active-duty military and reservists. Orders were the

4 same for all and the command was the same for all.

5 It didn't matter whether someone was a reservists or an active

6 soldier. He fully had to respect orders just like an active soldier,

7 regardless of who he was. So if you thought that reservists in my unit --

8 well, they certainly could not have been like this, and to have their

9 pictures taken like this. I mean, I'm not sure I can say -- they have

10 different caps, so I cannot tell. I don't know what it is for sure. Well

11 possibly -- I don't know.

12 Q. Do you recognise --

13 A. Sorry. It is possible that this photograph was not taken in

14 Kosovo either.

15 Q. Why do you say that?

16 A. Well, I'm saying that because have a look at the emblems.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the witness

18 again.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look at what the emblems say.

20 Perhaps if we could read that, we could identify what this is all about;

21 but this way, hardly, hardly. Now, if we look at the emblems that this

22 man has, the one next to the vehicle, these are coats of arms and insignia

23 that the KLA had.

24 So on the basis of that, we can say that this was in Kosovo. But

25 I cannot claim anything because the army did not have vehicles like these

Page 9295

1 with a machine-gun mounted on them as far as I can see. It is certainly

2 not an army vehicle. We did not have vehicles that had been altered this

3 way. We had standard vehicles that had not been altered in any way; we,

4 the army.


6 Q. Who did have vehicles altered that way?

7 A. Well, on some vehicles that are not combat vehicles -- I'm not

8 sure. I think they were Russian made. The police would mount

9 machine-guns on them. Now, whether they did this at their own initiative

10 or whether this was regular practice, I cannot say. But on some of their

11 vehicles, there were machine-guns, like here, like on this vehicle.

12 Now, I don't know -- well, the green -- I don't know. I shouldn't

13 be guessing now. I cannot say whether they are policemen or soldiers.

14 Well, it is not active-duty military, well.

15 Q. Let me ask you one question: Do you recognise the patch on their

16 arms; the red-white-blue patch, for example, on the man on the front row

17 left, do you recognise that insignia?

18 A. I see that. This is why I put this question. If this could be

19 enlarged, then perhaps I could identify who it is; but it is very small,

20 isn't it? It is certainly not military insignia. The army had standard

21 insignia, and we showed that under number 3 a few minutes ago.

22 MR. HANNIS: Could we zoom in on the patch and try to enlarge it

23 for the witness, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.


Page 9296

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me show you one more. I don't think I

2 showed you Exhibit 1599. One other group of men and I want to ask you if

3 you can tell us anything based on their appearance and their uniforms and

4 insignia.

5 A. May I not comment on this photograph, please?

6 Q. Well, can you tell me why you don't want to.

7 A. Well, these people in this photograph that we see now, do they

8 deserve to be commented upon?

9 Q. Well, I understand perhaps your feeling about that, but isn't the

10 patch on the sleeve of that man on the chair on the far right of the

11 photograph, isn't that the one you've identified as being the army patch,

12 the army insignia?

13 A. It is an army patch, army insignia, but this is not the army.

14 Poor would be the commander who would have such soldiers, if they were

15 soldiers at all. The question is where they had this picture taken, too.

16 Q. I take it from your comments you would not consider this a group

17 of professional army members because of their appearance?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Your Honours, in the unit where I served as a professional

20 soldier, even near that unit that I served in in Kosovo, the unit of the

21 major whose name we are not going to mention now. Right. I mean, people

22 like this -- like these did not have access to that unit and could not

23 even be near that unit.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me show you one more, and then I'll return

25 to your statement to ask you some questions.

Page 9297

1 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit IC42.

2 Q. K90, next I want to show you some camouflage patterns and ask if

3 you know what uniforms, what units, what forces these particular

4 camouflage patterns might have been worn by in Kosovo in 1999. And if you

5 could just go from upper left to upper right and then lower left to lower

6 right and give us any comment you have on those patterns.

7 A. The first one on the left, that is the uniform that was worn by

8 policemen, but I think it was the reserve police force that wore this. I

9 think this is one of the police uniforms. Up on the right-hand side, I

10 think that this is the uniform that was worn by the PJP because I have a

11 uniform like that at home, the top part and the trousers.

12 I'm not sure, but I think that's it -- actually, I'm sure about

13 that. As for the one down here on the left, I don't know whose uniform

14 this is. I cannot guess because I do not see this clearly at all. And on

15 the right-hand side is a classical military uniform.

16 As for the uniform down here on the left, I'm not sure, I cannot

17 say. And the other one on the right-hand side is classical military

18 uniform.

19 Q. Worn by the VJ in Kosovo in 1999?

20 A. Classical military uniform down here on the right, but not

21 everybody. As many as we had -- well, most people had it. The dates

22 varied, but they did have them.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to return to your statement; and in

24 paragraphs 41 to 45, you talk about how your particular unit was involved

25 in some villages telling the villagers to leave. You mentioned that Zub

Page 9298

1 was the first village where you did this, and I think you said that was

2 around mid-April. Do you remember the names of any of the other villages

3 where you did this?

4 A. No, no. But there is this brook between Zub and the neighbouring

5 village, so it's all on the same plain. Viewed from the border, there was

6 this other village that was empty. I don't know when it was emptied.

7 Probably the villagers left the village even before we came there, but

8 those are the first villages near the border. Those are the villages that

9 are closest to the border.

10 Since our command post was in Zub in the house of an Albanian who

11 was in his house; that is to say, the man had not moved out. When we

12 withdrew, they withdrew together with us. In fact, we did not tell them

13 to go anywhere, but they left with us. Not at any moment did we say to

14 them that they should leave the state, the country. Now, what does that

15 mean to relocate someone?

16 If you take his documents away, if you throw him out, and if you

17 tell him he can no longer come back to his house, that is expulsion. But

18 if he leaves with you and then if he can go back to his own house and get

19 his own stuff after a all, that is not expulsion. I don't know, perhaps

20 the Judges can say what is what, but for me that is not expulsion. Why

21 would they stay out there on their own at the mercy of aircraft? That is

22 so illogical.

23 Q. Now, in paragraph 44 you say: "Each time we undertook this

24 tasking ourselves." I wasn't clear on that. I read that. In English it

25 could be understood to mean that you, your unit, on your own decided when

Page 9299

1 and where to do this. Is that what you mean?

2 A. No, no. I explained it to you on Friday. No. When I said "on

3 their own," that is what I meant when I was speaking a few minutes ago;

4 that is to say, that other soldiers did not take part, so that what I

5 spoke of previously would not happen. That is to say, when we're talking

6 about the Albanian people who do not like any kind of mingling with their

7 families, that is it.

8 That is to say, we respected their customs and we carried out

9 their orders that were quite clear. I told you on Friday and I'm telling

10 the honourable Judges now. I don't know how we would have reacted if

11 somebody had protested and said they didn't want to leave. I don't know,

12 perhaps the commander would have to come and tell them, but we didn't have

13 any orders like that. If they didn't want to leave, I don't know.

14 Q. You mentioned in connection with Zub that when you did this you

15 told the villagers they had to leave within two hours. Was it a similar

16 deadline in the other villages where you did this?

17 A. Well, no -- well, two hours -- you know what? When there's a war

18 going on, when there's a war going on, you always have to be mobile, so to

19 speak. Since they had communication with the command, our command in Zub

20 was in the house of an Albanian.

21 Most of them knew that they would be relocated, so this is a

22 deadline -- well, you know, together with us. They withdrew together with

23 us. It wasn't that we had relocated and that they had stayed on or that

24 they left and we stayed on. We left together with them; that is to say

25 the army and the civilians.

Page 9300

1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, is this an appropriate time for the

2 first break?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before we do that, Mr. Hannis.

4 Could you look, please, K90, at paragraph 30 of the statement

5 where you describe various members of your unit.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Are these what you would consider to be

8 professional soldiers representative of the Yugoslav Army?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I were to exclude

10 the man who had this excess after the war and this one man who fled from

11 Kosovo; as for rest I have no observations because they impeccably carried

12 out the orders given by the commander. Never at any point in time were

13 they tempted to engage an excess to work to the detriment of the country

14 or after an Albanian, if that is what you meant just now. Never.

15 There are men there with a past -- well, more or less perhaps they

16 were just bragging. But anyway they carried out their orders impeccably

17 over there, and I can guarantee that.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 Now we have to break at this stage, and we'll be out of court for

20 about 20 minutes or so. We'll go into closed session while arrangements

21 are made for you to leave the courtroom with the usher.

22 [Closed session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9301

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to apologise. I can hear

11 this terrible buzzing, this terrible buzzing in my ears. Yes, now it's

12 much better.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 Q. I think that was the sound of the blinds going up, and it should

16 be stopped now. Can you hear all right now? Okay.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Before I went on, I wanted to follow up on the question that Judge

19 Bonomy asked you just before the break. He asked you a question about the

20 men in your unit, and you said with the exception of two; one who fled,

21 and I gather from paragraph 30 of your statement that's the one you

22 describe as getting into his car one day and never returning. Correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And the other one you referred to is one who was involved in

25 excess after the war, and I take it by that you mean the one who is

Page 9302

1 currently in prison for murdering a taxi-driver and his father in 2001;

2 correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Now, I was talking about your unit going around in some of the

5 villages and asking the villagers to leave. Did you speak to them in

6 Serbian -- well, first of all, do you speak any Albanian yourself?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Then did you tell them in Serbian that they had to get out within

9 two hours?

10 A. Your Honours, those were not orders. Those were not orders. This

11 was -- I cannot really explain this. I can try. In fact --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just concentrate on the question. What language

13 did you use?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any

15 interpretation.

16 Serbian.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 Mr. Hannis.


20 Q. And did you tell them where they were supposed to go when they

21 left?

22 A. That they should go towards Djakovica, the villages that were

23 closer to the town, and the town itself.

24 Q. Of the villagers that you had told to leave and go towards

25 Djakovica, did you or your unit later take any of them back to their

Page 9303

1 original villages?

2 A. Not until the end of the war, but they would come back to get the

3 stuff that they needed from their homes. They were allowed to go there if

4 they needed anything, flour. Whatever they had in their homes, they were

5 allowed to go there and fetch it.

6 Q. Related to that, in paragraph 40 -- yes, 45, you say: "After we

7 had ordered a village to leave, within an hour it was like an atom bomb

8 had hit the village. Soldiers were coming through the village and looting

9 everything that was not nailed down."

10 Which soldiers were these? From where did they come, the ones who

11 were doing the looting?

12 A. Now, what I told you on Friday - and I will repeat now in front of

13 this honourable Trial Chamber - no one could carry anything with them.

14 But it happened sometimes that an individual would come by. If it had

15 been a group, we would have seen them and they would have ended up in

16 prison. But individuals would go in and search for things that they

17 needed, but I think that some people that did that were actually drug

18 addicts. They were trying to find things that they needed.

19 And I can guarantee that nobody could or was allowed to take

20 anything with them throughout the war in Kosovo. In my unit, I don't know

21 about the other units, but in the unit where I served, nobody was allowed

22 to touch anything that belonged to somebody else. People that were caught

23 doing that were prosecuted and ended up in prison.

24 Q. Okay. In that paragraph, you go on to say: "They were taking

25 things that they could not imagine they were going to be able to take home

Page 9304

1 to Serbia."

2 What kind of things were you talking about there?

3 A. That's precisely what I wanted to tell you. When I say that it

4 looked as if an atomic bomb had exploded, they didn't take anything with

5 them. They just rummaged through the stuff. They would cut into things

6 looking for the things they needed. I don't know if you see my point.

7 They were looking for the stuff that they needed because they were

8 not able to take anything with them, yet they were rummaging through

9 stuff, turning it upside down. They were looking for stuff, but these

10 were not groups of people. They were individuals that we could not see.

11 Had we been able to see them, they would have gotten what they deserved.

12 Q. Well, that translation reads as though they were taking things --

13 I read that to mean they were taking big things like TVs, refrigerators,

14 things they couldn't carry. Isn't that what that means?

15 A. Do you think that we would not have seen them, that they wouldn't

16 be seen? We cleared up this looting issue, the circumstances in which it

17 took place. And when the time comes, we will explain this to the Trial

18 Chamber.

19 But if we're talking about this specific event, these events,

20 these were individual incidents that you could only do something about it

21 if you happened to come across this person doing that, and then you were

22 -- would be able to arrest that person.

23 We learned about most of those incidents from the people whose

24 houses had been looted in this way, and I have to tell you it was not nice

25 to sit there and listen to those stories.

Page 9305

1 Q. You say in that paragraph: "There's a lot more that I could say

2 about the looting that went on." Can you tell the Judges what you meant

3 by that. What's the "lot more" that you could tell us about the looting?

4 A. I'm referring here to what happened on the last day, the last day.

5 If you want me to, I can explain to the Judges about this incident.

6 Q. Okay. By "the last day," you mean when the war ended and the VJ

7 forces withdrew from Kosovo?

8 A. At the end when the forces pulled out, yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Well, tell us about that.

10 A. Since our brigade had during the war about 13, 13 and -- 13.000

11 people, maybe 13 and a half approximately, and our battalion - the

12 battalion has about 500 people, that would be the normal strength - but we

13 had 3.000, 2.500 people and there were -- there was a certain number of

14 officers commanding the 500 people. And I assume that with the influx of

15 a greater number of soldiers during the war that there were more officers.

16 If we multiply the number of officers even by 10, we cannot have more than

17 a hundred officers there.

18 On the day of the pull-out, the reservists were mobilised together

19 with their vehicles. No officer -- not because they didn't want to, they

20 couldn't physically do that. They were unable to check what people were

21 taking with them. There was not enough fuel. A huge number of people had

22 to be evacuated. You had to make sure that people didn't do anything

23 inappropriate, and it is impossible to secure this huge mass of people.

24 You could not control whether anyone was looting. There was looting.

25 And on that day, the last day, there was looting because it was

Page 9306

1 impossible to physically check each and every vehicle. They were driving

2 their own vehicles, and we even had some rather unpleasant circumstances

3 and incidents when we got to Serbia. Those people at one point simply

4 fled to their own homes. You could shoot this person and he is adamant.

5 He wants to go home. He wants to go home, this is my car, and he wants to

6 go home. They would just get together, a couple from the same village,

7 the would get on a truck, and they would just leave. It was impossible,

8 physically, to control this whole thing. So this is what happened on the

9 last day.

10 Physically, it was impossible to control these people, to check

11 what they were doing. If we had had our military vehicles, sufficient for

12 the number of people that we actually had, we perhaps have been able to do

13 that. We didn't have enough fuel. We didn't have enough vehicles. You

14 have to drive the people; that was our priorities. So, in fact, you had

15 acquiesce to what was going. It was impossible to control it. It was

16 impossible to prevent these people from doing what they were doing.

17 Q. Let me ask you a question about that. I think it's on page 41,

18 line 22. You say,"On the day of the pull-out, the reservists were

19 mobilised together with their vehicles."

20 Is this a group of reservists who had not yet been mobilised for

21 the conflict, who were mobilised the last day before the war ended to come

22 to Kosovo and help with the pull-out?

23 A. No, no. Sir, Your Honours, when a person has his privately owned

24 truck, when he goes to register the truck, this truck can get its wartime

25 assignment, be part of the reserve, just as a person. And these people

Page 9307

1 would come in with their own vehicles. Sometimes your vehicle would be

2 mobilised; and you, yourself, its owner would not be mobilised.

3 So, for instance, your truck is mobilised and it takes part in the

4 war, but you yourself don't. So it -- you don't have to drive your

5 vehicle. At the beginning of the war, that's how people came in. They

6 did not come on the last day. They were already there, in place.

7 Q. Okay. So these were vehicles and reservists who had previously

8 been mobilised, and they used their private, mobilised vehicles to help

9 with the departure from Kosovo. Is that right?

10 A. No. They were already in Kosovo. There has been a

11 misunderstanding. The vehicles and these people were already there when

12 the war broke out. When the mobilisation was declared, they had to report

13 to the unit where they were assigned. So in simplest terms, that was what

14 happened.

15 Q. Thank you. I think I understand now. In paragraph --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Your leaving --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

18 MR. HANNIS: I'm about to, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: You're leaving this paragraph. Does that mean the

20 witness hasn't said anything about looting at the time people were ordered

21 to leave their villagers?

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I understood him to say that they heard

23 about it from the villagers, and he was aware that individual soldiers

24 were involved in looting.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: K90, in your statement, which you signed, your

Page 9308

1 initials are on every page and your signature is on the statement, you say

2 that after you had ordered a village to leave, soldiers were coming

3 through the village and looting anything that was not nailed down.

4 Now, you signed that as your statement. What did you mean by

5 that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have already said, Your

7 Honours, the way it is written in the statement, one would assume that

8 this was general practice, that the troops would move through and loot

9 everything. The point is these were individuals that were not under

10 anyone's control.

11 So this was not the general practice in the army. You said that I

12 did sign my statement. There had been some mistakes in the translation,

13 even in the parts of the statement that precede this. I don't know if you

14 get my point; if not, I will try to clarify this some more.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I certainly don't get your point, and I am going to

16 seek for more clarification.

17 Mr. Hannis, when this statement was signed, what language was it

18 in?

19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, he signed the English. This was the

20 practice at the time, that it was composed in English and then it was read

21 back to him. At page 12 of the statement, you'll see the interpreter's

22 certification, that she orally translated the above statement from English

23 to Serbian in his presence, who appeared to have heard and understand.

24 And he acknowledged the facts and matters set out as translated by her

25 were true to the best of his knowledge and recollection and signed it and

Page 9309

1 initialed it.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, your statement, K90, gives the impression that

3 as soon as people left their village, the army were through that village

4 taking everything they could lay their hands on from the houses there.

5 It's as clear as day that that's what your statement says.

6 Why did you sign a statement to that effect when you're now trying

7 to claim that that was not the situation?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not quite sure

9 whether this was read back to me. I did sign the statement, but I

10 claim -- where would they take the stuff with them if they -- if they

11 really had taken the stuff?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a very --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is quite illogical.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the very point you make in the statement,

15 that it was illogical. It was just done for the sake of looting. It

16 wasn't done to obtain property; it was done to cause damage in the area,

17 the very point you make in your statement. And now you seem to want to

18 change that.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What I said is that individuals

20 caused damage; that's true and this is not something that I'm contesting

21 now. But this was not army in general. If you say,"the army," that would

22 imply that there was a huge group of people moving through and looting

23 stuff.

24 But there were individuals doing that and this is not something

25 I'm contesting at this point. Because there were errors in translation

Page 9310

1 from Serbian into English in the statement that I was shown when I got

2 here. Yes, please.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. But you have not chosen to change that in the

4 statement prior to coming in here today. So we can assume that you've

5 checked this over and that seemed to you to be accurate when you checked

6 it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did clear this up with the

8 Prosecutor. I told him on Friday, literally, that those were individuals

9 not a large group of people, if we don't take into account the last day.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I also wish to draw your attention to paragraph 30

12 of your written statement where you mention about the composition of the

13 units, and you talked of the variety of people that got into that and the

14 characteristics of people and how they abandoned and how they ran away.

15 But later when photographs were shown to you, you were being

16 hysterical about the faces and about those persons, and you are showing a

17 surprise, as if those persons who were in the photographs shown to you

18 today were persons who could not belong to a unit.

19 Now, how would you reconcile these things, please? And you, I

20 think, parried the question whether they were of the army, despite an

21 insignia was shown to you. How do you reconcile with this, please?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the people you saw in

23 the photographs are not people from my unit; that's the first thing.

24 The second point, as for your question, apart from the man

25 mentioned in the last paragraph of -- last part of paragraph 30,(redacted)

Page 9311

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted), the rest of them acted quite properly.

3 And the people that you mentioned, the people in the photograph,

4 are not people from my unit.

5 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry to interrupt. He mentioned a particular

6 name, Your Honour, that maybe we should redact.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Hannis. We shall.

8 Witness, the -- you referred to Russians also. What uniforms were

9 they wearing?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same as we did.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: You referred to somebody with long hair. You

12 referred to a murderer. You referred to a deserter. Now, this is a unit

13 you were proud of, is it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the man with the long

15 hair was not a criminal, at least he did not exhibit any signs of criminal

16 behaviour there. As for this other man, if he was tried, he could have

17 said anything. We didn't have any evidence; but while he was there, he

18 was behaving completely properly at all times except on one occasion.

19 He didn't cause any problems because, otherwise, he would not have

20 been there. So he had to abide by the rules very strictly. After all,

21 the man with the long hair -- I do apologise.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness K90, we, as a Bench, are not entirely

24 satisfied that you are doing your best to comply with the solemn

25 undertaking you gave at the beginning to tell the truth, the whole truth,

Page 9312

1 and nothing but the truth. And we warn you now to be very careful about

2 the way in which you're giving evidence to this Trial Chamber.

3 Please reflect carefully on that, and make sure that throughout

4 the rest of your evidence you comply with the undertaking to tell the

5 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. I want to move now to paragraph 46. Witness K90, you mentioned

9 two occasions where there were NATO bombing that involved civilians on the

10 ground. We talked about one before. I want to ask you about Djakovica.

11 Do you know the circumstances of that one?

12 We've heard evidence about bombing of a convoy near the Bistrazin

13 bridge outside Djakovica. Is that the one you're referring to in your

14 statement, or are you referring to a different one?

15 A. I did have this incident in mind. On that day, I was in Prizren;

16 and on our way back, there were some civilians and there were columns

17 heading in all directions. Some people were going in one way and some

18 people were going in another way. There were troops along the road, I

19 mean military vehicles at that time.

20 Now, I told you that I had heard that there was a military vehicle

21 near the column when the air-strikes had taken place. I think this is

22 what I wrote in -- this is what it says in the statement.

23 Q. You -- who did you hear that from, that there had been a military

24 vehicle near the convoy at the time of the strike?

25 A. I heard from the soldiers. I didn't have any official

Page 9313

1 conversation with any person about that.

2 Q. Thank you. I want to move now to paragraph 47.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, where does that -- or how does that(redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we'll have to make a redaction there, if

7 we may.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry.

9 MR. HANNIS: That refers to another incident. He talks about two.

10 The one you've just mentioned is the one involving Korisa, as I understand

11 it.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: So your question -- I'm sorry. I assumed that that

13 was also the incident involving the Bistrazin bridge, but, sorry, that's

14 at Djakovica, is it?

15 MR. HANNIS: Yes. Bistrazin is a short distance outside of

16 Djakovica I think to the south-east. We had another protected witness, I

17 think it was K72, who testified about that incident as well.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

20 Q. Now I want to move to paragraph 47 of your statement, Witness K90,

21 and you talk about there had been a killing of five policemen in an ambush

22 in April; and after that, there was a mass deployment of police in the

23 area. You talked about an additional 400 police who arrived in the

24 Djakovica area, and among these were PJP and Frenki's.

25 Can you tell us who the Frenki's were and what kind of uniforms

Page 9314

1 and hats they wore?

2 A. Well, since one of the men in my unit used to be a reserve -- a

3 member of the reserve of that unit, I heard from him that this unit had

4 arrived because they wanted him to re-join the unit. As for the other

5 policemen, they were brought in by bus, a number of buses, maybe about ten

6 buses. Some drove their own private vehicles from all over the place, but

7 that was on the day when the incident took place.

8 They didn't arrive before, but on the day of the incident, and it

9 says here that they arrived on the day when the incident occurred. So

10 they didn't come the day before, but on the day when the incident

11 occurred; and in the light of the fact that there had been some people in

12 the town already --

13 Q. Let me stop you --

14 A. -- there were some police officers there.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness, the question was: "Could you tell us who

16 the Frenki's were and what kind of uniforms and hats they wore?" Now,

17 could you please answer that question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I assume that if you're

19 referring to Mr. Simatovic, that would be the unit for special operations.

20 They wore red berets.


22 Q. And what kind of uniforms did they wear?

23 A. Let me try and remember. No, I can't remember. I really have to

24 apologise. I can't remember.

25 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about paragraph 48. This is -- you talk

Page 9315

1 about your unit was ordered to surround and secure the area around

2 Korenica and Meja. When you say "your unit," do you mean just your unit

3 of ten or 12 men, or do you mean your entire battalion?

4 A. Let me repeat. I told you already. This was not surrounding. We

5 were tasked with blocking a section of the road that I actually drew on a

6 diagram. Between the village and Djakovica, there was a stream there. So

7 it was not the whole battalion, just part of the unit.

8 Some people had come in from the border-posts, some people had

9 already been there, maybe 100, 150 troops, our troops. Now, in the other

10 areas, the other side of the village, and any other places, I didn't go

11 there and that's what I told you.

12 Q. You say: "Once the area was secured that a large number of police

13 were deployed, and they entered villages and randomly fired into homes."

14 Do you know where these police were from?

15 A. No. I don't know where they had come from, but these were the

16 police that arrived on that day on the buses. They went from house to

17 house in the village, and it is correct that they did fire shots on the

18 houses.

19 Q. Did you see any resistance coming from the villages as this was

20 going on?

21 A. No. I didn't see any, because I was not in a position to see it.

22 MR. HANNIS: Could we show the witness Exhibit P326.

23 Q. Witness K90, I want to show you an exhibit that was used with

24 another witness that shows the area. It has some markings on it. I want

25 to ask you what your knowledge is about where you were located at the

Page 9316

1 time.

2 MR. HANNIS: And if we can enlarge it a little bit for the lower

3 half of that exhibit, and once more, please.

4 Q. Witness, are you able to recognise the area that's depicted on

5 here? We see the town of Djakovica in the lower right-hand corner.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you see where the villages of Meja and Korenica are listed on

8 there? It's -- Korenica is partially obscured by one of the lines drawn,

9 but do you recognise that area as depicted on this map?

10 A. These are the villages near Djakovica. Well, I see the village of

11 Meja, and I see where this line is for the village of Korenica. So it's

12 the road to Junik. That is where part of my battalion was deployed, on

13 the road itself and in part of the brook leading to Djakovica.

14 Q. And do you also see the village of Brekovac?

15 A. Brekovac, yes.

16 Q. Now, you mentioned a crossroads in connection with your evidence.

17 Is that crossroads depicted on this map, or were you talking about some

18 smaller road that doesn't appear here?

19 A. I cannot see the road forking off from the main road to Junik,

20 going uphill on the right to a hamlet, a hamlet of the village of

21 Korenica. That road cannot be seen, but -- just a moment, please. I

22 think that that little road, yet another little road that leads to Meja

23 near the river, you can't see that either.

24 Well, maybe one can see it, but then I just cannot see it. There

25 is the river and then next to the river there is a village and a mill and

Page 9317

1 these big houses lined up.

2 Q. Would you be able to indicate on this map approximately where you

3 were located, or is it too hard to see? Because if you can, we have a pen

4 that you can use to mark on that map with, but let me know whether you

5 think you're able to do it or not?

6 A. I'll try.

7 Q. And if you can just put a number 1 and draw a circle around it.

8 A. If this is the village of Meja.

9 Q. I see you've drawn a circle at the bottom of the arrow under the

10 heading "check-points."

11 A. The check-point was here at the bridge between Brekovac and

12 Djakovica; here, right here.

13 Q. I see you've drawn a circle on the red arrow that goes into the

14 south-west corner of Djakovica to indicate the check-point. Now, based on

15 that can you give us an approximate location of where you --

16 A. Village of Brekovac, if I can see right. Between the village of

17 Brekovac and Djakovica, that's where the check-point was.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. HANNIS: May we give that an IC number?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before we do, can you help me, Mr. Hannis, to

21 understand how this ties in with the reference to securing the area around

22 the villages of Korenica and Meja.

23 MR. HANNIS: Yes. Your Honour, I think when he gave his answer to

24 that he said -- he indicated that his particular unit was involved in

25 setting up blockade related to the area.

Page 9318

1 Q. Is that correct, witness? Were you securing the area or

2 blockading one exit from the area?

3 A. No, it's just a road. One side of the road towards Junik, and

4 part of the brook that goes uphill. On this map you cannot see that part.

5 On the left-hand side, it is the hamlet of Brekovac and on the right-hand

6 side is the hill and then the town of Djakovica, or rather, the

7 neighbourhood of Cabrat; that's the way it is supposed to be.

8 This is what I can visualise right now, even from this distance,

9 where things were. On this map -- well, that road is not there going next

10 to the hamlet of -- well, not Brekovac, Korenica. So that's how I could

11 show you where the brook is because there's this little valley there, too.

12 If you can find it on the map somewhere.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: This started off, Mr. Hannis, with a reference to a

14 crossroads in the evidence. Now, where is the reference to the

15 crossroads?

16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the reference to the crossroads is in

17 paragraph -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. I've lost it. Paragraph --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Was it 50 --

19 MR. HANNIS: Paragraph 54 makes one reference to it and paragraph

20 51 makes a reference to it regarding the location of his command post

21 vis-a-vis the crossroads.

22 Q. Witness, is --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on a second.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I explain. Perhaps

25 it's going to be easier for you to understand if I explain.

Page 9319

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hannis, where is the diagram?

2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I've got it now.

4 MR. HANNIS: -- it's attached to his statement.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, the question doesn't give me the

6 information that I need to try to focus on what the issue is here. It's a

7 bit disjointed, if I may say so, the way in which this is being presented.

8 And if we look at this diagram, do we not get a clearer idea of

9 the areas we're talking about? Why are we using something different when

10 he's prepared his own diagram?

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I was trying to use this map because

12 it -- it shows a broader area that is pertinent to something that I want

13 to argue from about his evidence. And perhaps the map in the Kosovo

14 atlas, Exhibit P615, at page 22, which shows Djakovica, Meja, and

15 Brekovac, may be helpful to us if we can bring that up for the witness.

16 Unfortunately, the page break in the Kosovo atlas leaves Korenica on the

17 preceding page.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, have we done a screen shot of what's

19 there now? If not, I'd like to have that done.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Let's do that first of all.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC117, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MR. HANNIS: Now, if we could --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: We've moved away from blockades such that it might

25 be of Korenica, is that right, and we're on to another subject?

Page 9320

1 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We're not.

3 MR. HANNIS: I wanted to show him a map -- a another map and see

4 if he can indicate on that map where he was located.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

6 MR. HANNIS: And this would be Exhibit P615, the Kosovo atlas. I

7 see that it's on the screen. Now -- I'm sorry, we need page 22. Yes.

8 And if we can zoom in on Korenica, and the south-west side of --

9 south-west side of Djakovica, I'm sorry. And enlarge that. The square

10 with Djakovica in it would be the best centring point. And one more,

11 possibly.

12 Q. Witness, can you see that now? It shows Brekovac and Meja and the

13 river and Djakovica. Are you able to orientate yourself on that map?

14 A. Just a moment, please. Let me see. I see where Djakovica is. I

15 see where Brekovac is.

16 Q. Can you see Meja above that?

17 A. I see Meja. That road -- well, there's this road here towards

18 Korenica, and that area - it's an asphalt road - and that's where the

19 crossroads is that causes confusion.

20 So there is this dirt road going to the village, it's not an

21 asphalt road, and that's why it is causing this confusion. That's the

22 crossroads, and it's not marked on this map. And Meja is not on the same

23 road, sir. Meja is by the river, and Korenica is on the road.

24 Q. May we then show you your diagram, which is a part of your

25 statement, and I believe it's page --

Page 9321

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- page 18. Do you recognise that?

3 A. I don't see a picture here. Oh, the sketch that I drew?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No, it's not here.

6 Q. Okay. Do you --

7 A. I don't see it.

8 Q. Okay. It's in Exhibit 2391, page 18.

9 Do you have a copy of your --

10 MR. HANNIS: May I hand the witness a hard copy.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


13 Q. And while we're trying to get that up on e-court, what is that a

14 diagram of?

15 A. On this diagram, we see the road leading towards the village of

16 Korenica and through Korenica. That is this main line in the middle. The

17 line on the left of the diagram where it says the village of Meja, Selo

18 Meja, that is also a road, that is not an asphalt road, that is behind the

19 bridge for the village of Meja; and then there is this arrow where it says

20 A. That is the road that causes confusion. That is a dirt road, not an

21 asphalt road, that goes uphill to one of the hamlets of the village of

22 Korenica.

23 Q. And is that the crossroads you're referring to in your statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And your command post was located where on this diagram?

Page 9322

1 A. Where it says VJ, 80 to 100 metres. As I said here, that is

2 roughly the distance to the crossroads, between the crossroads and us,

3 that is. So it is in that area somewhere. Soldiers who were in the

4 blockade, our blockade, were -- can I somehow show you this on the diagram

5 where they were? Somehow, can I circle it or something?

6 Q. Yes. You can use the pen to mark on the screen, if you'll explain

7 to us what you're doing as you do it, please.

8 A. I'm marking the place where the blockade was, from here to

9 somewhere around here before you enter the village. And here there is

10 this small, very small village road leading also to the village of Meja.

11 Over here there's a brook, here in this area, here. And that is where

12 there were perhaps ten or 15 men in that area.

13 Q. Let me slow you down because it's hard to follow. First of all,

14 you drew two lines to show where the blockade was. Can you draw a line

15 connecting those two small lines to show the area of the blockade.

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, you've drawn a line connecting those, which seems

18 to run parallel to the road toward Korenica. Is that correct?

19 A. To the road, the left side of the road.

20 Q. And what was the purpose of the blockade?

21 A. Well, that if, as they have put it, if possibly members of the KLA

22 were to come from the forest here, the forest is right here, through these

23 fields, if they crossed the river, and if they moved towards Albania, that

24 we possibly stop them in that situation. That's where the forest is,

25 here.

Page 9323

1 Q. Okay. You've indicated with a series of dots and dashes on the

2 upper right-hand portion of the drawing the area that you say is where the

3 forest is located. Now, you started to draw a line at the top of the

4 blockade area to the left you indicate -- is that a dirt road leading to

5 Meja? Is that what that line is?

6 A. Well, it's not a -- well, perhaps you can drive a car along part

7 of it, but it's more of a footpath. It's a footpath through a field. I

8 don't think a car can get through; but perhaps in part of it, say from

9 these houses here, here, in this area, perhaps you could take a car here,

10 but not in this area out here, not in this area here. But there is where

11 people can get through.

12 Q. Okay.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, this I think is putting Meja in a different

14 place from where it appears in the Kosovo atlas, and it may be that an

15 earlier witness identified this as a problem. I certainly have something

16 in mind about the atlas being said to be inaccurate.

17 MR. HANNIS: I believe I recall that as well, Your Honour. There

18 was some discussion about which side of a particular location Meja was on.

19 Q. Witness, on this diagram, can you tell us which direction would be

20 north, if you know.

21 A. No. But I know for sure that the village of Meja, the houses of

22 the village of Meja, are right on the river here, on the river itself.

23 There's the mill here and then part of the hamlet and then the second part

24 and the third part, and that's how the houses in Meja go. But I think

25 this is Korenica, this, and there's no doubt about that. That's what we

Page 9324

1 thought. And the first houses I marked are the village of Meja. At least

2 that's the way I knew it there.

3 Q. And Meja is marked on your diagram in the upper left-hand corner

4 with a series of small boxes; correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And you say the river ran through that -- through that village?

7 A. No, next to it, on the left side of the village. The village is

8 on the right-hand side and the river is on the left side, behind the

9 village.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Does the line you've drawn from the top of the page

11 alongside these houses that you've marked as Meja, does that represent a

12 road or a river?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please, Your Honour.

14 Well, possibly -- well, it can be the road, but then the river also runs

15 along the parallel line. Look at the bridge. I drew it here, and the

16 village is -- and the river is right behind the village here, through Meja

17 and Brekovac, between them; and then the graveyard is somewhere around

18 here and then the village continues on the other side, Brekovac up to Deva

19 and the Deva mine. Now --


21 Q. All right. You've just drawn a red line that runs roughly

22 parallel to the road from Meja to the first most or bridge, as you've

23 marked it on your diagram. That represents the river. Is that correct?

24 A. The river.

25 Q. And a little square you drew to the left of the river below Meja,

Page 9325

1 is that the cemetery I think you said?

2 A. Cemetery, yes, graveyard, in the village of Brekovac.

3 Q. And on this diagram at the bottom, there's another most, or

4 bridge, I take it. Is the line between the two most, is that a river or

5 is that a road or does it represent both?

6 A. A road, a road, a road, just a road. As for the river, it's

7 somewhere around here, and there's this curve -- well, I didn't go on that

8 side, so I don't know. But I think it moves on from here further on,

9 because I know that there is this curve; and then on the other side, there

10 is a bridge again, on this side. So -- well, roughly, it's that part. I

11 know that because there is this hill here. Now, this is the hill.

12 Q. Okay. You've drawn a slight ellipse in the lower right-hand

13 corner to represent a hill, and before that you drew a continuation of the

14 river between the first bridge and the second bridge; correct?

15 A. Yes, yes. Yes, roughly, that's the way it is.

16 Q. Now, before we leave this one, let me ask you two questions. The

17 crossroads where you saw the policemen taking men out of the line of

18 villagers leaving the area, is that on this map; and if so, could you put

19 an X where it's located?

20 A. It can be seen on the map. It's here.

21 Q. And can you tell us from which direction were the Albanian

22 civilians coming that you saw walking past your command post? You don't

23 need to make a mark, if you can just describe in words for us where they

24 were coming from.

25 A. They were coming from the area where it says "Korenica" towards

Page 9326

1 this crossroads.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. HANNIS: Could we give this the next IC number and take a

4 screen shot, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what

7 Mr. Hannis wanted, but for us this is totally unclear, unusable. And I

8 suggest that we show him part of the transcript tomorrow and that then he

9 shows us on the map what part the witness was referring to.

10 I mean, this does not have any numbers or any markings, and I

11 don't think that it's going to lead us to a relevant conclusion for all of

12 us. So I really don't know how to get out of this problem, but it is way

13 to complicated and it does not correspond to what the transcript says.

14 And after all, certain symbols are repeated several times for certain

15 things.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's not the most elegant map I've ever

18 had drawn, but I think in the end we were able to get sufficient

19 description of what things were and where they were to be able to follow

20 it from reading the transcript. I think the argument goes to weight.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I agree with Mr. Visnjic's general comments

22 about the confusion, but the basic points seem to be clear. The route

23 from Korenica to the check-point is clear on the map. The location where

24 this witness says Meja was is clear on the map. These are the most

25 important elements for the presentation of the Prosecution case.

Page 9327

1 The matter is open for cross-examination later, and, indeed, you

2 can start afresh and have another one done, Mr. Visnjic. And, indeed, I'm

3 happy, if you wish to invite the witness because I'm going to invite him

4 to do something else as well overnight, but I'm happy to invite him to

5 draw a further diagram for presentation in the course of your case when

6 you come to cross-examine.

7 Mr. Hannis.

8 MR. HANNIS: So then I take it may be given a number?


10 MR. HANNIS: And I see the witness wanted to say something, and

11 I'll ask him to do that once we have the number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC118, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 Q. Witness K90, was there something else you wanted to say about

16 this?

17 A. Yes. Your Honour, I may make a mistake in drawing these lines or

18 perhaps I cannot say exactly where the river is or where exactly which

19 hamlet is belonging to this village, but I cannot make a mistake in terms

20 of the place where this event occurred and the direction in which people

21 were moving. And I cannot make a mistake in terms of where the army was.

22 I cannot make a mistake in terms of where my command post was, and I --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: These are matters for us to deal with, not for you

24 to comment on.

25 Mr. Hannis will ask you the next question he wants to ask you.

Page 9328

1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, how long were you out at this location? Was it just

3 several hours or more than a day? How long were you out there?

4 A. We came around 5.00 in the morning and returned -- well, it could

5 have been 11.00 or 12.00. After that, a few days later, we went to the

6 same area again and then I went yet another time, the following day, I

7 came to that area. So in fact, it was three times. And once when we went

8 to Junik, it could have been, say, about 15 days later, we took the same

9 road again.

10 So that was probably the fourth time that I was there in that

11 area; however, I have to say that from the river on, there is this flat

12 land. I went to the Deva border post several times. That can be seen

13 on -- well, the site, the place where this occurred, and the road can be

14 seen. So I could not have made a mistake about that.

15 Q. Let me interrupt you there, though. Which of these occasions that

16 you were out there was the one where you saw the civilians taken out and

17 taken to a house and shot? Was it the first? Second? Third occasion?

18 Which time?

19 A. Well, the shooting started -- well, in the village in front of us

20 there was shooting all over, but then when the shooting started behind us,

21 near the command post --

22 Q. My question is: Which of the three or four occasions you told us

23 you were at this location was it when the shooting happened? Was it the

24 first day you were out there? The second time you were out there?

25 A. The first day. If I understood your question right, the first day

Page 9329

1 when the blockade took place. That was roughly the 27th. I'm not sure

2 whether it was the 27th or the 28th of April. I cannot remember the exact

3 date. I think that's when it was.

4 Q. Now, was this the day -- you tell us in your statement about one

5 of your unit, one of the men in your unit being --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- shot and wounded. Was that the day that this happened?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, how long did you see civilians coming down the

10 road by your command post during that day? Was it the entire time you

11 were out there or only for an hour or two or what?

12 A. Almost all the time. The last group that I referred to in my

13 statement came when the commander had already gone to the hospital to see

14 what had happened with those men. So the blockade was already over. So

15 it was practically a constant thing, that they were coming, that is; group

16 by group, group after group, and that's the way it was, sometimes more,

17 sometimes less.

18 But the last group was between eight and ten men, and they came

19 only after the commander had gone to the hospital, or to put it more

20 correctly -- well, no. The hospital, yes.

21 Q. In paragraph 54, you mention about a group of about 30 policemen

22 at the crossroads. And I think you told us before these were the

23 policemen who had arrived before. These were the PJP. Is that correct?

24 A. I think -- in fact, I'm sure that they were.

25 Q. You describe how they were taking some men out from the civilian

Page 9330

1 who were leaving that way. Did you see -- was -- could you discern any

2 system or logic in how they were choosing the men to take out?

3 A. Interestingly enough, I could not get the criterion they used to

4 separate these people. I don't know why they did it. They did not put

5 them to some test to verify whether such and such a person was a KLA

6 fighter. I simply could not make any conclusions as to what was the basis

7 for what they were doing.

8 Q. In paragraphs 55 through 60 of your statement, you describe seeing

9 how some of the separated men were taken away, you heard gun-fire, and you

10 went over and saw bodies. And you tell us that your major told you to go

11 see what was happening.

12 What did you say to the policeman you contacted when you complied

13 with your major's directive to find out what was going on? What did you

14 say to him?

15 A. That the major was asking what was going on.

16 Q. And what did the policeman reply?

17 A. He was quite angry, and he said: "We're destroying the Siptars."

18 Now, I clarified to you what this means. Let me clarify this to the

19 Court. In fact, what he said was: "We're skinning the Siptars." That's

20 what it means, and that's how it was translated into English. But it can

21 mean something else. It can refer to something else, because this word

22 "derati" does not really have to mean that you have your knife out and

23 that you're actually killing this person with your knife.

24 Q. In your statement, it was translated as "slaughtering Siptars."

25 Do you want to correct that now and say it should read "skinning"?

Page 9331

1 A. Well, on Friday we went over this. The interpreter explained to

2 you what I meant when I said that this was his reply. The police officer

3 could have said: "We're combing the Siptars," and that would mean that

4 they were fixing their hair. Do you see what I mean?

5 But what they meant was precisely what they were doing. They

6 killed them, but they didn't really skin them. Do I make myself clear?

7 Q. Thank you. When you went back and told your commander about what

8 you had seen, did he go and talk to the police?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know if he called or radioed anybody or reported about it

11 to anyone?

12 A. No. Radio equipment was not used very often because of the

13 air-strikes, so no, not at that time; perhaps later or perhaps I just

14 didn't see it.

15 Q. In paragraph 62, you mention how one of the guys in your unit was

16 wounded and that the major was angry because he thought that the police

17 had done it. You say you knew there was no KLA in the area then. How did

18 you know that, that there weren't any KLA in the area?

19 A. Well, we knew because there was no fire from the Albanian side.

20 So if you're clearing up a village, you're expelling these people, and you

21 have no fire being opened at you, no police officers were wounded or

22 killed, only the people in the blockade were killed.

23 So it's quite logical. This means that there was nobody there to

24 shoot at you; that's the only logical explanation.

25 Q. Were any of you guys, any of you VJ guys, doing any shooting at

Page 9332

1 the time?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Now, we've heard some testimony from other witnesses that the KLA

4 typically used a different kind of weapon -- a different kind of

5 ammunition that made a different sound than the firing from VJ and police

6 weapons.

7 A. I didn't hear about that. The troops did not fire. No soldier

8 fired. There would have been response if they had. As for the

9 circumstances of the wounded -- wounding of this soldier, he didn't see

10 where the round was fired. And the other two that were wounded were

11 standing there at the crossroads between Meja and Korenica and that's

12 where they were hit. (redacted)

13 he was hit. I can't imagine -- it may have been a stray bullet.

14 Q. I'm sorry.

15 MR. HANNIS: We'll need to make a redaction there of a name, Your

16 Honour.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I apologise.


19 Q. It's all right. I've done it before myself, Witness K90?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Well, just one second. Yes.

21 MR. HANNIS: It's in line 3, page 68.

22 Q. You mention two others being injured. Were these two other

23 soldiers from the 549th Brigade that were wounded?

24 A. Yes, from our battalion. They were stationed at the Deva border

25 post.

Page 9333

1 I have to apologise. Can I have a five-minute break, please.

2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the witness is requesting a break.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we're not so very far from our normal break,

4 so what we'll do is break earlier than we would otherwise have done.

5 So can we go into closed session quickly, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Some of the blinds have not been activated.

8 [Closed session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness K90, you mentioned one of your colleagues was shot on that

22 day; and in paragraph 63, you say your major ordered you to travel with

23 the ambulance and try and find out what had happened. You say on the

24 way -- by the way, where did the ambulance take your wounded comrade?

25 Where was the hospital?

Page 9334

1 A. All three of them were taken to the outpatient unit in Djakovica

2 and then to Pristina, with our ambulance to Djakovica and then they were

3 taken to Pristina in I guess the ambulance that would -- that belonged

4 either to that outpatient unit there or the hospital, I don't know.

5 Q. Did you go to Pristina or did you just go to Djakovica?

6 A. No. No, just to Djakovica.

7 Q. And there did you talk to the soldiers and try to find out how

8 they had been wounded?

9 A. (redacted)I'm sorry.

10 MR. HANNIS: We'll have to redact that name. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.


13 Q. You didn't talk to the one man from your unit because he'd already

14 gone. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes. I went to get the other two so I spoke to them, and I spoke

16 to some people who helped me get them into the ambulance.

17 Q. And what did you learn based on those conversations?

18 A. I learned that they had been wounded, that they assumed that they

19 had been wounded by stray bullets fired by the police, that was their

20 assumption, because there was nobody else to fire on them. They were

21 there standing on the road between Meja and Korenica, the road that I

22 indicated on the map a little while ago.

23 There's a road there and they were standing there, and that's

24 where they were hit. One of them was hit in the back, and one of them had

25 a through-and-through wound in the thigh.

Page 9335

1 Q. You say, in paragraph 63, that on your way you saw some bodies on

2 the side of the road near the entrance to Korenica, and at least one of

3 them was a woman. How were these four bodies dressed? Were these

4 soldiers? KLA? Civilians? What? Based on the clothes.

5 A. No, no, no. No, that was not on the road or on the route. You

6 can see the houses drawn here right on this sketch here, that's the

7 building here. I don't know if you can see it.

8 Q. You're referring to your diagram, yes.

9 A. Yes. You can see the house here, that is why it was drawn in

10 here. Those were civilians. They were not in uniform. I don't recall

11 exactly what they had on. They were maybe 50 or 30 metres away from me,

12 maybe even less, some 30 metres.

13 Q. Were you able to see any injuries on the bodies?

14 A. No, because I didn't approach them.

15 Q. Now, in the next paragraph, 64, you told us you came back and

16 reported to your major. What did he say about the report or the

17 suggestion that your men had been wounded by fire from the police?

18 A. Well, he was visibly angry, first of all, because of the events

19 there at the crossroads and the wounding of our men. He was visibly

20 upset. He was swearing, and that's when he ordered me to go there and to

21 take the people who lived -- who were in that -- those villages up there

22 by the river Meja and so on, to take them to Djakovica with another

23 soldier. They were already ready, and I took them to Djakovica, as I

24 described in my statement.

25 Q. Was it just two of you, yourself and one other soldier, who

Page 9336

1 escorted those villagers?

2 A. Yes, just the two of us.

3 Q. And did you pick them up in the village of Meja that's shown on

4 your diagram?

5 A. Yes. They were on the road in the village. The whole column had

6 already been set up. They had already been ready to go. There were no

7 police, no army there. There were no police, no military there. But once

8 these people there realised that there was shooting going on, they got

9 ready to go.

10 At first they didn't even know what was happening. When they saw

11 that we did not have any bad intentions, they saw that there were just the

12 two of us, that we couldn't harm them in any way. So when they saw that

13 there were no bad intentions on our part, they followed us. We took them

14 to the bridge at Djakovica, and then we let them enter the town; in fact,

15 we didn't let them, but we asked the people there to let them through into

16 the town.

17 Q. I think you said before that you don't speak any Albanian. How

18 did you and the other soldier communicate with these people, with these

19 civilians? Did you speak Serbian and they understood you?

20 A. 95 percent of the Albanian men speak Serbian, perhaps even more

21 than -- it could be that the younger generations don't; but those who were

22 above the age of 25, they certainly do speak Serbian.

23 Q. And did you have a conversation with any people in this group

24 about who you were and what you were there for and what you were going to

25 do?

Page 9337

1 A. We discussed all kinds of things. We had to rest because there

2 was some old people there who couldn't walk that fast, so we had to take

3 rest regularly along the route. But there was no mistreatment, no mention

4 was made of that. We simply said something along the lines of: This

5 really shouldn't be happening. Nothing official.

6 It was the kind of conversation one would have with a person one

7 knows very well, despite the fact we didn't actually know them. We didn't

8 discuss the situation what was happening at the time, neither they nor us.

9 Q. Were there -- you mentioned there were old people in your group.

10 Were there women and children as well?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How about any --

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. -- any military-aged men in the group?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And how long a distance did you have to travel to go from the

17 village to the bridge where you eventually took them?

18 A. Almost two kilometres, maybe even more. Let me think a little

19 bit. About two kilometres, perhaps a little bit more, perhaps a little

20 bit less. You had to pass through the village of Brekovac, so it may be a

21 little more than two kilometres.

22 Q. From your diagram, it looks to me as though you did -- well, let

23 me ask you. Did you have to go by or through the place where those 30

24 police you had seen earlier were calling out and killing some of the men,

25 did you have to go through that point?

Page 9338

1 A. On the sketch that you showed me, I drew in a small footpath here

2 or a very small road here. There's another road here, but the main road

3 from the village goes like this. We didn't take this road here. We went

4 straight to Djakovica, so we didn't go past the crossroads.

5 Q. And when you got -- when you got to the, I guess, bridge outside

6 Djakovica and turned the people over, who was at the bridge there? Was

7 that police or was that VJ or both?

8 A. We didn't hand over anyone to anyone. I took them as far as the

9 bridge and there was a check-point there. The check-point was manned by

10 the military police and some reserve police. In fact, there was an

11 active-duty policeman and a couple of reservists -- reserve police

12 officers.

13 I don't know how many of them. They asked me: "Where are these

14 people going?" (redacted) order that

15 these people should go into Djakovica and that's how it was. There were

16 no problems whatsoever.

17 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we'll have to make another

18 redaction there of a name. Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, you say you were driven back to the crossroad near your

20 command post. Who took you back?

21 A. I think it was a policeman. I'm not sure, but I think it was a

22 policeman; and not just me, but also the soldier that was with me.

23 Q. When you got back I think you say you saw another group of

24 civilian men taken out and taken into the building and shot. How many men

25 in that group?

Page 9339

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted) He had already left the command post, and the

3 blockade was already lifting; and then this group of people, eight to ten

4 people, they were part of this larger group which was -- which I mentioned

5 in paragraph 61. I said that there were eight to ten people, just men,

6 only men, aged between 23, 24, and maybe 30.

7 I don't know where they had come from. They passed by our command

8 post and reached the crossroads. That's all I know. And we heard when

9 they were ordered to sing songs, and they took them to the little house in

10 the yard. From the place where we were to the house -- the little house,

11 there is nothing impeding the line, nothing in the line of vision, nothing

12 to prevent us from seeing them enter the yard.

13 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 66, you mention that the police

14 burned the houses where the men had been shot during the day. Did you

15 actually see them set those houses on fire?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was there anybody else in that area, other than the police?

18 A. At that place where that happened, no.

19 Q. Now, I want to go to your supplemental information. If I could

20 have the usher hand you a copy. In paragraph 67, you say you knew about

21 some other incidents that happened when you were in Kosovo. And on Friday

22 you gave us additional information, and I think there -- under item number

23 8, items (a), (b), (c), and (d) about some other events that you knew

24 about. I want to go into private session for a minute to ask you about

25 one of them, if I may.

Page 9340

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that to protect the security of the witness, or

2 is it for some other reason?

3 MR. HANNIS: Both I think, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the other reason?

5 MR. HANNIS: The other reason relates to the identity of the two

6 VJ soldiers he knows.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. We will go into private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9341

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I don't have any more questions for

12 this witness. I do have some documents I wanted to tender in relation to

13 his testimony; but because three of those documents have the name of an

14 individual that we've been talking about in private session, I would like

15 to tender those under seal.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we do that, the supplemental information

17 doesn't -- isn't an exhibit, so what is it you're expecting us to make of

18 paragraph 8? You've asked some questions about (b), which are probably

19 adequate because of what else you said to amount to some evidence. (C) is

20 clearly something you would never be leading anyway.

21 MR. HANNIS: Correct.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: So (a) and (d) are not part of the case at the

23 moment as I read it?

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, you're right. I either need to ask him

25 about that or tender the supplemental information. I think in light of

Page 9342

1 some of the discussions we had earlier, I would like to give that an

2 exhibit number and tender that.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think we would be happy about that,

4 Mr. Hannis. Either you're going ask questions about this or you're going

5 to depart from it. So I think that's the choice that you have.

6 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. K90, I want to ask you about item number (d) in that

8 supplemental information under number 8. It says: "Two civilians were

9 murdered by two VJ soldiers outside Djakovica during the conflict." And

10 you know that an officer named Mancic was prosecuted. You say here you

11 know that he is no longer in prison. Do you know when he was released?

12 A. I don't know when he was released. I did see him some 20 days

13 ago, not more than that. So he's not in prison anymore.

14 Q. Do you think what his rank was at the time of the alleged crimes

15 for which he was charged?

16 A. I think he was a major. I think that now he's a

17 lieutenant-colonel, as far as I know.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions about that, Your Honour.

20 I'll make some connection to that with regard to another document I want

21 to tender.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, in that regard, I propose to offer

24 Exhibit 2567, 2568, and 2569. I would like to offer those and have those

25 filed under seal. And if we need to go into private session to discuss

Page 9343

1 their relevance and authenticity, I'm willing to do that right now if

2 that's convenient.


4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9344











11 Pages 9344-9345 redacted. Private session















Page 9346

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: We, Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: And the last document, Your Honour, P962. This was a

8 document that was brought in by General Delic; and while I have some

9 reservations about some of those documents, in this case, this is a list

10 of filed criminal reports against perpetrators in the 549th Motorised

11 Brigade between May 1998 and July 1999.

12 I bring to the Court's attention item number 103, which refers to

13 Major Mancic as being prosecuted for war crimes against civilians and

14 receiving a prison sentence of seven years, later changed to 14 years on

15 the prosecution's appeal, to connect with this witness's evidence about

16 what happened to Major Mancic; and part of our argument that we'll make

17 about either lack of punishment or something less than full punishment.

18 And there is one other entry that refers to some of this witness's

19 evidence regarding Major Radic, that's item number 124 on the list. He

20 was referred to in the witness's statement as being involved in theft, and

21 this shows that he was prosecuted for Article 174, which appears to be

22 vehicle theft, and released in 2003. So some corroboration on this

23 witness's evidence, relates to our eventual argument about the degree and

24 nature of punishment.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And the item number relating to Mancic?

Page 9347

1 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I -- 103.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Any Defence counsel have any comment to make on

3 this document?

4 Very well, we'll admit these two parts; that's items 103 and 124.

5 Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, now I do.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: You wish the whole document?


9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, what do you have to say to that?

10 MR. HANNIS: No objection.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll admit the whole document.

12 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions for this witness now,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've still to decide what to do with the

15 statement, I think.

16 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, yes, I --

17 Q. Witness, do you now feel you've had an opportunity to clarify any

18 matters in your statement that you felt weren't accurately represented in

19 the written statement? Is there anything else that we haven't talked

20 about that you feel needs to be explained or clarified?

21 A. Let me just tell you, Your Honour, that it was not my intention to

22 protect anyone who committed any crimes. Your Honour, at the time when we

23 were in Kosovo, the people that you warned me about, they were acting in a

24 proper manner, and that is why I was able to be satisfied with their

25 conduct.

Page 9348

1 I don't know what they did after the war or before their arrival

2 in Kosovo. This is for some other authorities to determine, not myself.

3 Other than that, I could agree with what you say; yeah, that's okay.

4 Now -- I agree for the most part with the clarifications that we made

5 today, that that would be it.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Give us a moment, Mr. Hannis.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, the witness has a B/C/S version of the

9 statement. Is that correct?

10 MR. HANNIS: He does, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it it's a copy that hasn't been revised in

12 accordance with the changes in the supplemental information?

13 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: But it could be revised in accordance with these

15 changes, could it?

16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, and we need to omit the paragraphs 3 to 23 --


18 MR. HANNIS: -- that you indicated at the beginning.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness K90, what we're going to ask you to do --

20 we'll be finishing shortly for the day. You have the afternoon free and,

21 indeed, the evening. We wish you to read a version of the statement which

22 will be given to you. Don't leave this building until you get it. That

23 version will be updated with corrections according to what you've told us

24 in the course of today and what you told Mr. Hannis on Friday.

25 You should read it tonight and you should come back tomorrow with

Page 9349

1 a note of any other alterations you maintain should be made to that

2 statement, and we'll consider these in the morning when we resume. So do

3 you understand what I'm asking you to do, to read your statement very

4 carefully --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: -- so you can tell us exactly if anything's wrong

7 with it or, alternatively, whether you accept that it's all true. All

8 right. So we'll deal with that again before we finish for the day in

9 about 20 minutes or so.

10 Now, Mr. O'Sullivan -- Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm going to request that

12 we adjourn now. There's only five minutes left and it would not, I think,

13 be productive.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we have 25 minutes left.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, okay, whatever it is, Your Honour. Based

16 upon the evidence that's gone so far, we've all visited and I think it

17 would be very helpful to the Chamber if we had an evening to re-work what

18 we intended to do because we may have a shorter and a much different

19 approach to this witness. And we have no witness after this witness until

20 Wednesday anyhow, and I can assure you that we'll all finish tomorrow

21 without any problem.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we are -- Mr. Hannis, sorry.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm seeking some guidance about the

25 preparation of his statement. It's easy for me to put in the changes that

Page 9350

1 were listed in the supplemental information. I know what they are. The

2 changes he made during his testimony are less clear to me exactly what

3 those should be. I guess I would like to see what he writes about those,

4 and then prepare an amended statement to reflect that.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, all I'm asking you to do is incorporate into

6 the statement the changes which were clearly intimated in the supplemental

7 information and the additional ones at the beginning of today's evidence

8 which were clear.

9 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Insofar as anything may have been qualified or

11 supplemented in the course of oral evidence, I don't expect you to be

12 revising the statement to show that.

13 MR. HANNIS: All right.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: So this is an exercise that by -- that can be done

15 very quickly as long as you have a B/C/S speaker available to do it.

16 MR. HANNIS: Okay. That would help.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness will not leave here until he gets it.

18 MR. HANNIS: I see a question.


20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour.


22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the statement that I and the

23 Prosecutor prepared on Friday. I have my written objections on that

24 statement -- well, it's not objections. It's things that were not

25 translated properly. So that would be things that I don't want in the

Page 9351

1 statement. So it's three minutes, really, not more than that. I just

2 need to have this copied out on a different sheet of paper, nothing more

3 than that.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: What you will do, after going through the statement

5 carefully tonight and making any additional notes you wish, is you will

6 come in here and you will tell us directly, you will tell me directly the

7 alterations that you wish to make to that statement. We're not going to

8 do this in a rush just now.

9 We're going to give you the time overnight to read it, and we rely

10 on you to do that. And the Prosecutor will make sure that you've got a

11 copy with only the alterations that have already been made by you clearly,

12 and you'll need to start again and add any additional notes on to that so

13 that you can tell us tomorrow what changes in addition you wish to make.

14 Is that clear?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Obviously, in doing that, you can use the copy

17 you've already made notes on to make sure that you cover everything.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, we're going to finish the proceedings for

20 today, and we will resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. You have to be

21 here ready to continue your evidence at 9.00 tomorrow. Meanwhile, you can

22 have no discussion with anybody at all about any of your evidence, either

23 the evidence you've given or the evidence you may yet give in the case.

24 So when you're doing the work we've asked you to do, you do it on

25 your own. You have nobody to ask about that. You can talk to people

Page 9352

1 about anything else, any other subject, but you can't talk to anybody at

2 all - Prosecutor, Defence, anybody - about your evidence. Now, do you

3 understand that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you're dealing with this, you're entirely

6 on your own. All right.

7 Now we will go into closed session so that you can leave the

8 courtroom.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 [Closed session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.29 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of

17 January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.