Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9571

1 Thursday, 1 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: The Trial Chamber has decided that the next

6 witness, K79 will give evidence with additional protective measures of

7 voice and image distortion. We've considered carefully the various

8 submissions made by Mr. Ivetic and also by Mr. Ackerman yesterday in

9 relation to the evidence in general. We don't think that we can make a

10 blanket decision at this stage to exclude this evidence. We think that on

11 the face of it, there will be evidence relevant to the indictment. We

12 understand that the witness may be asked about Suva Reka or at least about

13 the forces in the vicinity of Suva Reka, which may be important from the

14 point of view of identification apart from anything else.

15 It would appear that he may give evidence that goes to the

16 question of whether there was an armed conflict and whether the activities

17 were widespread and systematic. He would appear to have evidence to give

18 in relation to Orahovac about which we have heard some evidence already,

19 and it may be that some of what he says has a bearing on the averments in

20 paragraph 95. But it's for counsel to take specific objections if they

21 consider that we are in territory which cannot be said at all to have any

22 relevance to the indictment, and we will consider each individual

23 objection as it is made.

24 We can now hear from the witness, and we need to go into closed

25 session for him to enter the courtroom. Sorry, stop that process. Stop

Page 9572

1 this. I didn't realise this was something else to be dealt with. Let's

2 get back into open session.

3 Utter confusion so often in this place. No sense of organisation.

4 What is the point you now wish to raise, Mr. Marcussen?

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: I apologise, Your Honour. We --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: We had time yesterday to deal with how this

7 witness's evidence would be presented.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, since court yesterday, late yesterday

9 afternoon I was given a rough draft translation of a document that we

10 discussed in private session yesterday. In light of that summary, I have

11 reviewed the way the evidence would be -- we would have to present the

12 evidence of the witness. I think it means at that we would have to go

13 into more private session than I originally had foreseen, and I wonder

14 whether it's not going to be sort of so much in and out of private session

15 that it would be better to present the witness's evidence under Rule 92

16 ter.

17 I did make efforts this morning to notify one of the court

18 officers of this, but I guess the communication hadn't passed, so I

19 apologise. I also should have told also the Registry staff early on.

20 My suggestion is that we simply present the evidence in form of 92

21 ter. I will have some questions for the witness, but we will only have to

22 go into private session in that regard very few times, and then I think

23 that would just run the whole thing more smoothly. But I'm prepared to do

24 the witness live, and I do understand one of my colleagues on the other

25 side have an objection to this mode of presentation of the evidence.

Page 9573

1 I would note that our witness notification that we filed last week

2 did put the witness down as a live/92 ter witness, although it was

3 actually my intention to present the witness as a live witness, but -- and

4 I don't know, it might also be that the Chamber hasn't had a chance to

5 study the statement sufficiently to be --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I haven't received the statement, so I don't know

7 what the statement says.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yesterday, I was requested to send forward a copy

9 of the statement to -- to one of --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. And that was for legal staff to help with the

11 analysis of whether there might be relevant evidence to be given by this

12 witness, because there isn't enough in the motion. And having been

13 assisted with that, I haven't read the statement in detail to try to

14 familiarise myself with it and have the witness presented to me as a --

15 well, with part of his evidence under Rule 92 ter.

16 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm -- I'm perfectly happy going in open

17 session -- in direct examination with the witness, but I just wanted to

18 make the suggestion for the Court to consider.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: We're all agreed that you should proceed as

22 originally proposed and lead this witness live.

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: If you come to the stage where there's something

25 simple that can be presented in writing and you make an appropriate

Page 9574

1 motion, which is the way Rule 92 ter ought to operate, then you can do it.

2 As I said before, there is no such thing as a rule 92 ter witness. You

3 are free to present any part of a witness's evidence in writing if you can

4 justify that as being in the interests of justice.

5 Bearing in mind our experience of the last witness, we doubt if it

6 would be in the interest of justice unless we had had a fair opportunity

7 of reading this in advance if what you intend is to present an extensive

8 statement from the witness. So we think that you should lead him live and

9 only present in writing anything that is clearly relevant and would be in

10 our view clearly evidence which would be in the interests of justice to

11 see in writing rather than here.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. No problem.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall now go into closed session for the witness

14 to enter the courtroom.

15 [Closed session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9575

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: The noise is caused by blinds behind you rising. I

11 appreciate you can't see them, but we won't start until the noise stops.

12 You will be asked questions by a number of counsel representing

13 both the Prosecution and the six accused persons in this trial, and the

14 first counsel to ask questions will be for the Prosecution, and that is

15 Mr. Marcussen.

16 Mr. Marcussen.

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Examination by Mr. Marcussen:

19 Q. Good morning, K79.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. As the President has just informed you, you have been granted

22 protective measures in order to present -- to protect your identity.

23 There will be times when I will ask that we go into private session.

24 If -- if need be, I would like to ask that you indicate to me if there's

25 an answer you cannot give because you're afraid of revealing the identity

Page 9576

1 and then we'll have to deal with it. Of course, I'll try to avoid this,

2 but I just wanted to ask you to be alert to this yourself as well.

3 Now, first, I would like to show you a piece of paper and ask you

4 if this -- what is written on this paper is a correct reflection of who

5 you are, and I, of course, ask you not to say any names.

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, this document has been uploaded.

8 The witness identification sheet has been uploaded into e-court as Exhibit

9 P2641, and I would like to ask that that exhibit be placed under seal.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.


12 Q. K79, would you describe your education for me starting with your

13 primary school.

14 A. I completed primary school, a secondary school for agriculture,

15 and a course for policemen. I completed the course for policemen in 1992

16 in Zemun.

17 Q. And have you done your military service?

18 A. Yes, in 1987, in Tuzla, as a military policeman.

19 Q. Thank you. You said that you -- you completed a course as a

20 policeman in 1992. Did you join the police at that time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What part of --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Marcussen, the period of military

24 service must be 1997. It's recorded as 1987 on the transcript. Is that

25 correct?

Page 9577


2 Q. K79, what year did you do your military service?

3 A. In 1987.

4 Q. Before -- before you became a policeman.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. K79, so what -- what part of the police did you work in in 1992?

7 A. The uniformed police.

8 Q. And in that capacity what -- what kind of work would you do. Just

9 give a brief description.

10 A. I was on the beat. I did patrols, normal police work as a police

11 officer.

12 Q. At that point in time, did you have any rank in the police?

13 A. No rank. I was first a corporal and then a corporal first class.

14 That was my vocation. These are general police ranks.

15 Q. Then later did you join another unit in the police?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And -- and what unit or -- yeah, what unit was that?

18 A. I became a member of a PJP unit.

19 Q. And when was that?

20 A. In 1998.

21 Q. And how -- how was you selected for that unit? Did you apply for

22 a position in the unit?

23 A. I did not apply. I was selected on the basis of my age and my

24 ability. It was our superior who selected the members of the PJP unit.

25 Q. Was there some sort of a selection process that took place before

Page 9578

1 you were appointed to the PJP?

2 A. Yes. The results of one's physical education, the results of

3 one's work, years of service, all that is taken into account.

4 Q. Was there some specific training set up during which you were

5 assessed?

6 A. No. There was no specific training; but later on when we were

7 already members of the PJP, we did have so-called training exercises.

8 Q. And what -- what kind of training exercises were -- were they, the

9 ones in the PJP?

10 A. Infantry exercises, target practice, attack and defence, jumping

11 out of moving vehicles, things like that.

12 Q. And being a member of the PJP, was that a full-time job or not?

13 A. We did normal police work, and we were engaged as needed. This

14 was all within the framework of the SUP.

15 Q. And what kind of tasks were -- were you carrying out when you were

16 carrying out specific PJP tasks or work?

17 A. The PJP unit was engaged when there were demonstrations in

18 Belgrade, demonstrations in Pristina, and so on.

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honours, at this stage, I would ask that we

20 go into private session to deal with some matters that could identify

21 the -- identify the witness.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9579











11 Pages 9579-9583 redacted. Private session















Page 9584

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


11 Q. K79, were you sent to Kosovo at some point in time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When?

14 A. The 10th of July, 1998.

15 Q. And did your entire detachment go?

16 A. Yes.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 Q. I think we should redact the -- the detachment number from the

21 transcript and from the public -- from the transmission of the court

22 hearing.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You think that is necessary, do you?


25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

Page 9585

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: K79, without -- how many members --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before we -- before we move on, it would help

3 if you did not refer specifically to anything that might identify you.

4 For example, the number of a detachment, which is what happened just now.

5 And your answer's not very clear, because, first of all, you said

6 the entire detachment went, and then you said part of it went and part of

7 the reserve detachment. So which -- which is the position?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole reserve detachment went

9 and part of the -- well, detachment.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.

12 Q. K79, how -- how many -- how many people were there in your

13 detachment? How big is a detachment?

14 A. There were about 150 members.

15 Q. Of -- of the entire detachment?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. How many members were there in a company, in a PJP company?

18 A. One hundred fifty, I told you -- oh, no. Sorry, that was a

19 mistake. The detachment had between 500 and 600 members and the company

20 had 150.

21 Q. No problem. These sort of things happen. Not to worry.

22 In -- in your company, in addition to the platoons, were there any

23 other units in the company?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were those units?

Page 9586

1 A. There was the reconnaissance squad, the command, the mortar squad,

2 the drivers, the cook, the doctor.

3 Q. Were -- what was the function of the command section?

4 A. Well, the command squad, they were in charge of paper, supplying

5 fuel, ammunition, food.

6 Q. It might speak for itself, but the -- the mortar unit or the

7 mortar squad, what -- what did they do?

8 A. They had two 82-millimetre mortars, and they gave fire support to

9 us when we went into action.

10 Q. How many members did the mortar squad have?

11 A. Well, about ten members.

12 Q. And the reconnaissance squad, what size was that?

13 A. Around ten members as well.

14 Q. How many members of your detachment went to Kosovo approximately,

15 if you know?

16 A. I don't know. Our company went then. We went on our own.

17 Whether they were already in Kosovo or whether they came later, I don't

18 know. I mean the members of the detachment.

19 Q. To your knowledge, were there also -- were there some foreigners

20 in -- in your detachment?

21 (redacted)

22 Q. Were -- were they -- if you know, were they a separate unit or

23 were they just individual members of different squads?

24 A. No. They were within a company, but a special separate squad

25 within the company.

Page 9587

1 Q. Did you know when that squad arrived in Kosovo?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. When did you -- when did you first hear about them?

4 A. Well, in the month of May, when we were handling the village of

5 Budakovo, they were with us.

6 Q. And --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's just briefly go into private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


20 Q. K79, what kind of weapons did you have as a member of the PJP?

21 A. Standard police issue weaponry: An automatic rifle and a pistol.

22 Q. Did -- did you have some additional weapons when you went to --

23 to Kosovo?

24 A. When I was leaving, no; but when I got to Kosovo, yes, I had hand

25 grenades, rifle grenades.

Page 9588

1 Q. Were there some members of your company that had more specialised

2 weapons such as sniper rifles?

3 A. Yes, yes. Every squad had its own sniper shooter.

4 Q. Now, what kind of uniforms did you use in the PJP? And let's

5 start with the uniform you used before going to Kosovo.

6 A. We had working blue camouflage uniforms, and we wore regular

7 police uniforms, the ordinary zone ones. Those in use from 1997. I

8 think, 1997. That's before Kosovo.

9 Q. When you were in Kosovo, what kind of uniform did you use there?

10 A. From July 1998 until the 24th of March, 1999, we wore working blue

11 uniforms. From the 24th of March, 1999, we wore NATO uniforms.

12 Q. What was the colour of the uniforms you used from July 1998 to

13 March 1999?

14 A. Blue, bluish grey. Different nuances, different shades of blue.

15 Q. In a -- in a camouflage pattern; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And -- and when you had the green uniforms, were they also

18 camouflage uniforms or were they plain colour?

19 A. Camouflage.

20 Q. And what were the sort of different colours, if you can describe

21 the colours of the camouflage one?

22 A. Green, brown.

23 Q. Thank you. When you arrived in Kosovo --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move on to that, when did you learn that

25 there would be a change in uniform?

Page 9589

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, before the war, we were issued

2 with these uniforms, NATO uniforms. We were issued these uniforms at the

3 secretariat where I worked; and on the 24th, we were given the order to

4 wear those uniforms, on the 24th of March, 1999.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: How long before the 24th were they issued to you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, about five months earlier.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And do you know why you were required to wear

8 different uniforms from -- from the time the war started?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Did the uniforms you were given resemble those worn

11 by the VJ?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were different.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.


15 Q. When you were wearing the blue uniforms, did it -- did it say

16 "Police" on them anywhere or no?

17 A. It said "Milicija" on the blue ones.

18 Q. Where on the blue ones were that indicated?

19 A. On the sleeves here; the sleeves of the jackets and the shirts.

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: And the witness pointed to his shoulder and arm.

21 Q. How about on the green uniform? Did it also say "Milicija" on

22 those?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you wear anything on top of the green uniforms from time to

25 time, any kind of vest or something to carry equipment?

Page 9590

1 A. Yes, combat vests. On the back, it said "Policija."

2 Q. Thank you. Were those vests also worn sometimes together with the

3 blue uniform or only when the green uniform was worn?

4 A. Only when we were in the green uniforms. But from when the war

5 started, we didn't wear any other uniforms except for the green ones.

6 Q. Thank you. When you first came to Kosovo, where did you go?

7 A. To Djakovica.

8 Q. Can you tell us where in Djakovica you were stationed?

9 A. In the barracks of the Army of Yugoslavia.

10 Q. Had you been told why you were going to Kosovo?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Had you been briefed about the situation in Kosovo?

13 A. Just what I heard on television. Nothing.

14 Q. While you were in Djakovica, what kind of duties did you have?

15 A. We had police patrols. Nothing special, regular police work.

16 Q. And -- and how would you describe the situation at that point in

17 time in Djakovica? Was it peaceful?

18 A. Yes, normal situation.

19 Q. How long did you stay in Djakovica?

20 A. Well, about five or six days.

21 Q. Where did you stay after that?

22 A. After that we went to Prizren. Again, we were put up at the

23 barracks of the Army of Yugoslavia.

24 Q. And until when did you stay in Prizren?

25 A. Two days. We were in Prizren for two days.

Page 9591

1 Q. And did you then leave Prizren?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you -- where did you go?

4 A. We went to Orahovac.

5 Q. Were you told what you were going to do there?

6 A. We were supposed to liberate Orahovac because it had been taken by

7 the KLA.

8 Q. Were you -- were you told this by your commanders, or how did you

9 find that out?

10 A. We were told in Prizren. No one said anything to us, but we heard

11 these stories.

12 Q. Do you remember the dates that you were -- left Prizren?

13 A. The 17th or 18th of July. I cannot be sure, but I think it was

14 the 18th of July, 1998.

15 Q. Could you explain? How did you leave Prizren? What kind -- did

16 you have some sort of transport? Did you walk? How was that going on?

17 A. Trucks and Pinzgauers; that is to say, vehicles that our company

18 had.

19 Q. Did -- how far did you go in the trucks? Until where?

20 A. First to Bela Crkva and then to the entrance into Orahovac.

21 Q. Did you get off the trucks there?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Can you describe what happened when you arrived at the entrance to

24 Orahovac?

25 A. Fighting was still going on in town.

Page 9592

1 Q. And what did your -- what did you do?

2 A. We were waiting in the trucks.

3 Q. Did you come under fire?

4 A. No. Not at that moment.

5 Q. Did you approach Orahovac further?

6 A. Yes. We went through all of Orahovac and went to the Serb

7 neighbourhood up there.

8 Q. And could you explain what happened there?

9 A. Well, members of the KLA were withdrawing into the surrounding

10 hills.

11 Q. What -- what units were in Orahovac at that point in time together

12 with you? And here I'm not asking for specific numbers, but -- well,

13 maybe I should put this differently.

14 There was the PJP, obviously. Were there any other police

15 units --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- engaged in the operation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What units?

20 A. The SAJ, the special Anti-Terrorist Unit.

21 Q. Is that -- is that a police unit?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Did --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you find a suitable place now to interrupt

25 your evidence?

Page 9593

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Why don't we just do it here.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. For administrative reasons, K79, we do

3 need to have a break now which will be for half an hour. We'll go into

4 closed session to allow you to leave the courtroom with the usher. Just

5 stay where you are for a moment until the blinds come down.

6 [Closed session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. K79, we were talking about the units that were at Orahovac, and

17 you mentioned the SAJ and explained that they were -- what they were and

18 that they were a police unit. Did you know of this unit before you went

19 to Kosovo?

20 A. Yes, I had heard about them. Everybody had. Among the policemen,

21 I mean.

22 Q. And how did you recognise them when you were in Orahovac?

23 A. By their uniforms and by the insignia on their uniforms.

24 Q. The weapons they had, were they the same as yours or were they

25 different?

Page 9594

1 A. They had Hecklers also, at least some individual members of the

2 SAJ.

3 Q. Would you -- would you describe their weapons as having a better

4 quality than yours?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Apart from the PJP and the SAJ, were there any other armed

7 formations in Orahovac?

8 A. No, except for members of the KLA.

9 Q. Were there any military?

10 A. Outside of Orahovac, yes, but not in the town itself.

11 Q. But did the military, nonetheless, participate in the operation,

12 or were they just outside there?

13 A. They were outside Orahovac, near Orahovac.

14 Q. From what you observed, were they -- were they taking part? Were

15 they having a function in the operation in Orahovac?

16 A. I think that they were holding Orahovac in encirclement. There

17 were tanks and Praga, self-propelled anti-aircraft guns, nothing else.

18 Q. You mentioned earlier that -- you mentioned a Praga when you

19 talked about the trucks and vehicles that were moving to Orahovac. Those

20 Pragas, were they belonging to the military or police?

21 A. To the military. The police didn't have any Pragas.

22 Q. Did you --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think -- I don't think that question

24 accurately reflects the evidence. The evidence earlier was that they

25 travelled in trucks and Pinzgauers.

Page 9595

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry, yes. That -- sorry.

2 Q. And my question -- yes, sorry. And my question should have been

3 the Pinzgauers, did they belong to the police?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see any captured Albanians while you were in Orahovac?

6 A. Yes. I saw one near the petrol station.

7 Q. Who had captured him?

8 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, at this point, we would object because

9 it's outside of the scope of the indictment.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

11 MR. MARCUSSEN: This, in my submission, is relevant to the events

12 that occurred when these sort of operations were carried out. I'm going

13 to explore the fate of this prisoner in my next questions.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Where do you say that's covered by the indictment?

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: It fits into -- into the Prosecution's case

16 regarding the nature of the -- these anti-terrorist operations and what

17 was -- how these operations were carried out. We've heard a lot of

18 evidence about how the international community was concerned about

19 excessive use of force, the way these operations were carried out, the

20 effects that these operations had on -- on civilians and people who did

21 not take part in the combat, and it's the Prosecution case that there was

22 a pattern in these operations that started from the very beginning of the

23 operations in March 1998 and carried on right through the entire

24 indictment period.

25 And -- so -- so these events, although they're not charged crimes,

Page 9596

1 we submit is relevant to the assessment of how these so-called

2 anti-terrorist operations were carried out. And, ultimately, all this

3 goes to the issue of whether or not there was a plan. It goes to the

4 knowledge of the accused about the events in -- in Kosovo, and it goes to

5 the knowledge and the continuation of -- these sort of operations go to

6 the issue ultimately of the intent.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: You know that in the process of trying to lick this

8 indictment into shape you -- you had the opportunity to select what events

9 in 1998 you would refer to, and I take it from what you've said that this

10 event that you seek to lead evidence about cannot fall within any of the

11 averments in paragraphs 94 and 95.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: I actually left my indictment up in the office, to

13 be frank, but I'm having my assistant -- case manager, of course, is

14 organised and has it.

15 I mean, these -- we do talk about in paragraph -- paragraph 95,

16 the operation that was launched in mid-July 1998 and the destruction

17 and -- and that was caused, so we would submit that that is indeed covered

18 by that paragraph.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So why do you need any specific averments in an

20 indictment at all then? Why don't we just say there was trouble in 1998,

21 1999, and let's get on with the evidence?

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, I think the issue here is -- there's a

23 difference, in our submission, between the individual charged crimes

24 and -- so the individual murders that are charged in the indictment, the

25 individual other specific crimes with which the accused are charged and

Page 9597

1 would be held if found guilty specifically responsible, and then evidence

2 that goes to issues such as intent, existence of a plan, widespread or

3 systematic attack, all these sort of things.

4 There are different requirements with respect to the specificity

5 of these different sort of events, and in one different sort of acts -- so

6 we -- yeah. The fact that -- it shouldn't be impossible for the

7 Prosecution, in my submission, to lead evidence about a specific crime

8 which isn't charged as a specific crime in the indictment as long as it

9 goes to another issue that's relevant in the case.

10 Now, we're not -- and we've said this before, we're not going to

11 submit that the accused are responsible for the killings that occurred in

12 1998 or other crimes that occurred, but the fact that these different --

13 that a number of different crimes were committed in 1998 is relevant to

14 the issues, kind of issues I've already outlined. So on that basis, we

15 submit that this evidence is admissible.

16 And, again, the statement has been -- we sought to have this

17 witness added to the witness list before the trial started. The statement

18 has been disclosed for a long time. It has been clear to the Defence that

19 we were going to lead this evidence. I submit there cannot be any

20 prejudice to the accused from this.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen, the difficulty I have is

22 understanding what an indictment is for in this case. What is the purpose

23 of the indictment if you just lead whatever evidence you've intimated in

24 statements? What is the indictment is supposed to do?

25 MR. MARCUSSEN: The indictment is supposed to put the Defence of

Page 9598

1 notice of the allegations that are being leveled against specificity.

2 There are different degrees of specificity that we have to set different

3 facts out, for we do not, in our submission, need to set out every single

4 individual crime and specify every single incident in a long chronology of

5 events in the indictment.

6 We need to give a description that informs the Defence about the

7 nature of the Prosecution's case. We've done that. Further particulars

8 has been provided in the pre-trial brief, and we're going to lead evidence

9 and that's the last step in the process, and the Defence has to right to

10 know what the evidence --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: So this incidence is in the pre-trial brief is it.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: The campaign in July is mentioned in the pre-trial

13 brief.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but it's also mentioned in the indictment.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: And --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: But it then goes on to say which elements of that

17 campaign are being relied upon in the case. And it's a very wide-ranging

18 area of Kosovo that's covered, but it doesn't seem to relate to events in

19 Orahovac.

20 Now, why is that? Why have you not referred to all these other

21 places and not made this reference?

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: This particular indictment -- I mean, it's a

23 timing issue. The witness wasn't on the witness list at the time that the

24 indictment --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: But an indictment can be amended at any time.

Page 9599

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Right. I think in -- in June when -- it was a

2 fairly long process to get this indictment in place. The Prosecution was

3 trying to show some restraint in continuing to amend the indictment in

4 order to -- not to block the commencement of the trial. We tried to -- to

5 do some -- make some choices there, and we have had evidence about a

6 number of incidents which are not charged.

7 We could have charged some -- a lot of this -- many things as

8 individual crimes. The choice was not to do that and to accept that some

9 of this evidence can only be used for other purposes, and we're not

10 ultimately going to be able to allege the accused are responsible for

11 this.

12 Now, that is the rationale for the course of conduct that we've

13 had.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you intending to say something else?

16 MR. MARCUSSEN: I did want to maybe refer Your Honours to

17 paragraph 27 of the pre-trial brief, where there's talk about the KLA

18 conducting operations in various areas, including Orahovac; and then it

19 mentions that the forces of the FRY and Serbia responded, that there was a

20 campaign of shelling and persecution. But it's in the pre-trial brief.

21 It's not in the indictment.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's a reference to 1998, is it?


24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, you indicated you wanted to say

25 something else also.

Page 9600

1 MR. LUKIC: After these new informations I got from my learned

2 friend, we find it appropriate only if they think that this Albanian is

3 killed by shells, and obviously it's not the case. And you, Your Honour,

4 put us on notice that we should object every time when we find it --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not at all critical of your objection.

6 MR. LUKIC: And still we think it's not pled in the indictment

7 specifically, and specifically not -- not in the pre-trial brief as well.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: We -- we don't want to discourage objection. I

10 know that in the past when we've made a ruling adverse to the Defence,

11 there has been hesitancy sometimes in -- on the part of Defence counsel in

12 continuing to object. So I make it clear that we don't by this decision

13 mean to discourage that, because we need guidance on this point.

14 It does seem to us that there's potential relevance in this

15 evidence, bearing in mind that it's said that the activity of this group

16 continues through into 1999. And bearing in mind some of the other more

17 general considerations mentioned by Mr. Marcussen, we find it very

18 difficult to judge this objection knowing of that potential, and,

19 therefore, we will reserve a final decision on it and allow this evidence

20 to be led.

21 There may come a time even during the evidence when we can take a

22 final decision, but perhaps not. Perhaps that final decision will have to

23 wait a later stage in the trial. If we can make it final, we will do so

24 in the course of the witness's evidence.

25 Mr. Marcussen.

Page 9601

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. K79, so we -- you said that members of the SAJ had captured an

3 Albanian civilian.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please tell us what --

6 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour. I think this is a

7 misrepresentation of the evidence. Here we have an Albanian civilian, and

8 I think the witness said something else. I'm not sure, but I think

9 that -- he said KLA, and he didn't say who captured him, I think.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think these -- I just cover these things. I

11 break it down. I'll rephrase the question.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment. I think you should start this

13 episode again and make sure that your questions are open questions.

14 MR. MARCUSSEN: I will, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 Q. K79, did you see any captured persons while you were in Orahovac?

16 A. I don't know whether he had been captured. I know he was there

17 surrounded by members of the SAJ. He was saying, "It wasn't me. It

18 wasn't me." That's all I know. Whether he had been captured or not, I

19 don't know.

20 Q. Could you describe the clothes this person was wearing?

21 A. As far as I can recall, he had white trousers and a white shirt

22 on.

23 Q. Did he have any weapons as far as you could see?

24 A. At that point in time, no, he didn't. I don't know whether he had

25 had before that or not.

Page 9602

1 Q. Do you remember what age, approximately, he looked like he had?

2 A. I couldn't say. Young-ish, not more than 40, but I can't be

3 precise.

4 Q. At the time was it your impression that he was a fighter of some

5 sort, a soldier or member of the KLA?

6 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour. This really calls for

7 speculation. He described the man. This only can help us, of course, but

8 it calls for speculation, and that's why we object.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that question is okay, because it will need

10 to be followed up depending on what the answer is, and we need a starting

11 point.


13 Q. K79, at the time did you -- did you form an opinion about whether

14 this person was a fighter?

15 A. I don't know whether he was a fighter. I do know that many

16 members of the KLA wore civilian clothes but carried weapons. Now,

17 whether this was the case with this man, I can't say.

18 Q. What happened to the man after he had said, "It was not me," as

19 you just explained?

20 A. A member of the SAJ shot him dead with a pistol.

21 Q. How far away from -- from these events were you when this

22 happened?

23 A. About 20 metres.

24 Q. So could you see the man who -- who shot this person?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9603

1 Q. And -- and you heard? You were close enough to hear what this

2 person said?

3 A. What person do you mean?

4 Q. The person who got shot.

5 A. Before he was shot, all I understand him to say was, "It wasn't

6 me. It wasn't me."

7 Q. And -- and -- but you heard him say that?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And -- and how do you know that it was a member of the SAJ who

10 shot this person?

11 A. There were about 30 members of the SAJ in that area, in that

12 place. I knew them by their uniforms and their insignia.

13 Q. And could you see the insignia on the person who fired the gun?

14 A. They had badges saying "SAJ" on their shoulders. I mean, not a

15 badge but an insignia.

16 Q. And -- and the man -- did you also see the insignia on the man who

17 fired the gun?

18 A. Not on him, but he had the same uniform as all the others.

19 Q. Thank you. After this --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: That's very confusing now. Are you saying that

21 there was something missing from his uniform, or are you saying you didn't

22 see whether or not he had "SAJ" on the shoulder? What is the position?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not notice it on his uniform.

24 I noticed it on some other members who were around him. Some had insignia

25 on, some didn't. Some were in T-shirts, others wore jackets. The ones

Page 9604

1 who had jackets on had insignia, and the ones who were wearing T-shirts

2 didn't have them.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


5 Q. Could you tell us what happened next? How long did you stay at

6 this place?

7 A. We spent about 30 minutes in that place.

8 Q. Did you see any members of the KLA?

9 A. The members of the KLA were on the surrounding hills near

10 Orahovac. We could hear shooting from up there.

11 Q. Could you describe how these members of the KLA were looking?

12 Were they wearing uniforms? Were they wearing weapons? How did they

13 look?

14 A. Some of them wore uniforms; some wore civilian clothes; and some

15 had our blue work uniforms, camouflage uniforms.

16 Q. Did they carry weapons?

17 A. Yes. Yes. They had automatic rifles. They also had Brownings

18 set up on the hills overlooking Orahovac.

19 Q. And so the people in civilian, were they also carrying weapons?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Could you explain us what a Browning is, please?

22 A. That's a 12.7-millimetre machine-gun.

23 Q. So you stayed in this place for about half an hour, then what --

24 where did you go?

25 A. Then we passed through Orahovac and went to the Serbian part of

Page 9605

1 Orahovac, closer to the hills from which they were shooting at us.

2 Q. And how did you go there?

3 A. In trucks, Pinzgauers, and jeeps.

4 Q. Could you describe to us what you saw as you were driving on the

5 truck?

6 A. Throughout Orahovac I saw about 30 corpses along the road,

7 approximately. I cannot say for sure what the number was.

8 Q. Were they lying in one location or in different places?

9 A. Not in one location; that is to say, throughout town, one would be

10 here, another one would be there.

11 Q. The corpses you saw, were they -- were you able to see whether

12 they were men or women or both?

13 A. For the most part it was men; only one woman at the exit towards

14 Malisevo. All of them were younger men up to the age of 40, as far as I

15 could see.

16 Q. Do you remember whether any of the dead bodies were wearing any

17 kind of uniform?

18 A. I think that two wore uniforms, camouflage uniforms. The German

19 uniforms. I don't know. The others were not.

20 Q. Did you see whether there were any weapons lying by the bodies?

21 A. I did not see that.

22 Q. Actually, maybe my question was not entirely clear. Did you see

23 any weapons?

24 A. In town, no. In the hills, yes.

25 Q. Where did the trucks take you?

Page 9606

1 A. To the exit from Orahovac towards Malisevo.

2 Q. Did the trucks stop there?

3 A. Yes, yes. They were shooting at us from the surrounding hills.

4 Q. Did you remain in the truck or did you get off?

5 A. We got off.

6 Q. And then could you explain what happened there? You got off and

7 then what?

8 A. Then we started walking towards the hill from where they were

9 shooting at us. In about an hour, we took the hill.

10 Q. Do you know the name of the hill?

11 A. Vran-stena.

12 Q. How -- how long did you stay at the hill?

13 A. Three days.

14 Q. And what happened during those three days, if anything?

15 A. We were guarding the hill and there was sporadic gunfire. That's

16 it. Nothing important happened.

17 Q. When those three days over, were you replaced by someone?

18 A. Yes, yes. A replacement came after three days.

19 Q. And without giving any specific numbers, who -- of any units or

20 anything, who --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- who replaced you?

23 A. A unit from our detachment, a reserve unit.

24 Q. And where did you go when you were replaced?

25 A. We went down to Orahovac.

Page 9607

1 Q. And did you -- did you stay at Orahovac?

2 A. Yes, yes. Until the beginning of September.

3 Q. Were there any continued fighting while you were in Orahovac, so

4 before September?

5 A. No. It was quiet.

6 Q. Were you sent out on operations, then, in the month of September?

7 A. Yes, yes. We were in action throughout the month of September.

8 We practically covered the entire territory of Kosovo during that month or

9 so.

10 Q. How long would each of these operations last?

11 A. Well, from five to ten days.

12 Q. And between the operations, would you go back to Orahovac, or

13 where would you go?

14 A. Yes, yes. We would return. That's where our base was.

15 Q. Could you tell us, if you remember, the name of any of the places

16 that you were going for operations?

17 MR. LUKIC: I apologise, Your Honour. I think that the last time

18 when I objected, my learned explained that there is mentioning of July in

19 their submissions, the indictment, and pre-trial brief. Now we are

20 discussing September and onwards. So I think that there is nothing

21 regarding these operations. If that can be clarified, please.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: In the middle of paragraph 95, we talk about first

23 operations in mid-July, then August, and then September. So the arguments

24 are the same as I've set out before. There would be some specific

25 locations mentioned which are in the indictment and in the pre-trial

Page 9608

1 brief; but as is obvious from the evidence, this witness participated in

2 a -- in a series of operations throughout the month in different

3 locations.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, are you going to be leading evidence in

5 relation to places that are covered by the references to events in August

6 and September in the indictment?

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes. Some of them -- I mean, the thing is some of

8 these descriptions in the indictment and pre-trial brief are broad, and

9 there's a question about what the definition of what a specific area is.

10 Some of the specific locations are mentioned. Some of it is in more

11 general areas, but I would say we are on fairly safe ground here. But I

12 don't know if my colleague objects to that description.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Remind me the paragraph in the pre-trial brief.

14 Did you say it was 27?

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: Twenty-seven, yes. My apologies. And we also

16 should refer to paragraph 92.

17 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I may. In paragraph 92, it's Drenica

18 area that's mentioned, and that does not include places mentioned by this

19 witness.

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, there are mentioned places like Glogovac,

21 and a number of those locations are mentioned by the witness, I believe.

22 There are also locations that are mentioned that are not, but ...

23 JUDGE BONOMY: In any event, your position, Mr. Marcussen, is that

24 the indictment actually relates to areas which you say you're now going to

25 lead evidence about; is that right?

Page 9609

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes. The -- the witness is going to talk about

2 places that have been described as hamlets in different areas, so it's

3 very difficult for me to pin down precisely where some of these locations

4 are. They are in these areas.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if we find that these areas that are referred

6 to do not fall within the terms of the indictment and possibly the

7 pre-trial brief, then we'll review the position again and we'll expect

8 Mr. Lukic to draw our attention to that if that's what happens.

9 Meanwhile, continue.


11 Q. So, K79, so you said that during the month of September went to

12 various areas in Kosovo. On operations, you would go back to Orahovac,

13 which was your base.

14 Now, would -- could you please -- my question was if you could

15 mention the places in which operations took place.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

17 come closer to the microphone.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. We're having -- the interpreter is having

19 difficulty. If you could come slightly closer to the microphone and start

20 your answer again, please. Sorry about that.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were carrying out actions in

22 Drenica, at Bajgora, at Cicavica, and other places, and I don't know where

23 they are.


25 Q. What was the purpose of these operations?

Page 9610

1 A. Cleaning up the terrain from members of the KLA.

2 Q. And how was that done? How do you carry out an operation like

3 that? What does it mean?

4 A. Well, my unit has an axis of activity and then we are cleaning up

5 KLA strongholds in front of us, villages where they are.

6 Q. When you say "cleaning up," you ensure that there are no --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Please don't lead.


9 Q. Could you explain what you mean by -- could you explain what you

10 mean by "cleaning up"?

11 A. I mean expelling members of the KLA from that terrain or

12 neutralising them. It's the same.

13 Q. And could you -- could you describe the steps in an operation like

14 that? You go out to a certain location and then what?

15 A. You go to a location where members of the KLA are, either a hill

16 or a village; and if they are well-fortified, then the mortars come into

17 action, and then we go and clean the village from members of the KLA.

18 Q. Does that entail checking various locations for whether or not

19 there are any KLA members there?

20 A. We were sent to locations where there were members of the KLA;

21 that is to say, when we would get to such a location, they would shoot at

22 us.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: I'd like my learned friend to specify with the witness

25 a period of time when these operations took place. Because if it's in the

Page 9611

1 indictment or in the pre-trial brief that something happened in 1999, we

2 think that if this witness is talking about 1998, it's not covered by the

3 indictment and by the pre-trial brief.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, at the moment we're in September 1998, as I

5 understand the position.

6 MR. LUKIC: In the indictment and the pre-trial brief, we do have

7 Bajgora, Drenica, Cicavica; but in 1999, not in 1998. That's what I could

8 find in this heap at the moment.

9 I apologise. There is Bajgora mentioned in 1998, in paragraph 27

10 in the pre-trial brief, not in the indictment.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, your ongoing objection is noted, and we'll

12 continue to listen to this and see what it amounts to in the end.


14 Q. K79, when -- when -- when a KLA position, let's say within a

15 village, had been taken over by you, you had overcome the opposing force,

16 what would your next step be? Was there a next step in the operation?

17 A. We'd go on. We would not stay in that village. We would follow

18 the enemy further on, or we would go to other villages where there were

19 members of the KLA.

20 Q. Would -- would various houses in a village be checked?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was anything else done to the houses? Was there anything done to

23 the houses apart from checking them?

24 A. Yes. Some houses were burned.

25 MR. MARCUSSEN: We have three exhibits that I'd like to show to

Page 9612

1 the witness. Now, this might identify the witness, so I don't know

2 whether we need to go into private session or whether we can show the

3 exhibits without broadcasting the image outside the courtroom. I'm

4 seeking guidance on this?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: They can usually be shown without broadcast. Is

6 that -- that's how it will be done.

7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we call up Exhibit P2624.

8 Q. And, K79, a picture will be shown on the monitor in front of you.

9 K79, the picture that we see here, are you familiar with that

10 picture?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Without mentioning the name, do you know who took the picture?

13 A. I know.

14 Q. Do you know where this picture was taken?

15 A. I don't know where it was taken.

16 MR. LUKIC: We would object at this point, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there's nothing to object to. Yes, I note

18 the position. But unless there's some substance put on this, then it's a

19 pointless exercise.


21 Q. K79, to your knowledge, is this picture taken in Kosovo?

22 A. Yes, yes. I don't know the exact location. It can be Drenica.

23 It can be Cicavica. I don't know the exact location where this was taken.

24 It was taken in Kosovo though.

25 Q. Do you know about what time it was taken?

Page 9613

1 A. September.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: How do you know these things?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the man who took this picture

4 talked to me about it. I mean, he was there with me.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, where did he speak to you? I'm not following

6 this. You said you did not know where it was taken.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact location, but

8 I saw these pictures earlier on, too. These pictures were taken in

9 Kosovo.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: Maybe it would clarify matters if we went into

11 private session.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And how do you know this picture was taken in

13 September?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was there with him when he

15 took the picture.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we would expect you to know where it was

17 then.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can -- I cannot remember exactly

19 where it was. That's the problem.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.


22 Q. K79, is -- is this how things looked during the operations you

23 were carrying out? Is this a correct sort of image of how things were

24 looking?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9614

1 Q. Now, to me it looks like there's some smoke coming up from a

2 location. Do you know -- is that right? Is it smoke that we have in the

3 middle of the picture?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where's that smoke coming from? You don't know the location, but

6 where does the smoke come from?

7 A. The smoke is coming from houses that are burning and haystacks

8 that are burning.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'd like now if we could call -- could we see

11 Exhibit P2626. 2626.

12 Q. K79, what about this picture? Do you know where this is?

13 A. No. I think it's the same location like the previous one, but I

14 don't know where it is exactly.

15 Q. In -- a little to the left of the house, there seems to be some

16 sort of a vehicle. What is that, do you know?

17 A. Yes. That's a tank.

18 Q. During your operations, did you have tanks with you?

19 A. Yes. We had tanks and Pragas attached to our unit. One or two

20 tanks and two or three Pragas.

21 Q. Did those tanks belong to the MUP?

22 A. No, to the army. The MUP doesn't have tanks.

23 Q. During the operations, who would give orders to the tanks and the

24 Pragas?

25 A. The company commander.

Page 9615

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: I would now actually like to move on now to

2 Exhibit P2625. If we could call that --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you even remember the circumstances that

4 occurred in this place?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was most probably a KLA

6 stronghold because it was set on fire. Those villages where there were

7 KLA strongholds were set on fire. Where there was no KLA, the house were

8 is not torched.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: And why were the houses torched?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you that.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Were there people in them when they were set on

12 fire?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you involved in setting them on fire?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Who did it then?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was done by individuals and

18 detachments from Kosovo; detachments of the PJP from Kosovo.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying that none of your detachment did any

20 of this?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some individuals from my detachment

22 did, two or three perhaps, following orders from the company commander.

23 Nobody else participated in it.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: And did your --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

Page 9616

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. Were you aware of your company commander

2 ordering this?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The company commander, yes. I heard

4 him order a man to set fire to a house.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes. Could we call up Exhibit P2625.

7 Q. Now, again, is this a photograph from the same period in time?

8 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Were you there when this picture was taken?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But -- well, do you remember where it was? I guess I have to put

12 the question that way.

13 A. I can't remember the precise location.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it different from the other two?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I think it's the same village.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And what's burning here?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume the inside of the house.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you were there. Can you remember what it was

19 that was actually burning?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would usually set fire to the

21 curtains and to the wall panelling. Albanian houses usually had panelling

22 inside.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.


25 Q. But it was the house that was burning. Is that the correct

Page 9617

1 understanding of your answer, the house?

2 A. Yes, yes, but inside.

3 Q. You were there when the picture was taken. Do you -- do you

4 happen to know who set this particular house on fire?

5 A. I think I do, yes.

6 Q. Was it a member of your detachment?

7 A. No.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we should go just briefly into private

9 session to get the identity of the individual.


11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


25 Q. Now, these operations in September, who ordered the operations, as

Page 9618

1 far as you know? And no names but just positions.

2 A. Before every action, our company commander would come to see us in

3 the morning and give us the plan of the action. He would tell us where to

4 go and what to do.

5 Q. And do you know where your company commander had received his

6 instructions from?

7 A. I assume the detachment commander.

8 Q. "Assume." Why do you say "assume"?

9 A. I can't be sure who he got them from, but it would be logical for

10 him to get them from the detachment commander. I only heard our company

11 commander issuing orders. They had briefings. They had meetings. And I

12 assume that the commander, the detachment commander, issued orders as to

13 what we were to do and where we were to go.

14 Q. Thank you. I understand. And your detachment -- detachment

15 commander, where did he get his orders from, if you know?

16 A. I don't know that.

17 Q. Are you aware of any meetings taking place in Pristina before any

18 of your operations?

19 A. In Pristina? Not in Pristina. It was in Prizren that the company

20 commanders had meetings with the detachment commander. I don't know about

21 Pristina.

22 Q. Do you know whether your detachment commander had meetings with

23 any of the accused in this case?

24 A. I don't know that.

25 Q. Do you know whether your detachment commander had any meetings

Page 9619

1 with a gentleman called Sreten Lukic?

2 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour. This is ridiculous.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

4 MR. LUKIC: We have heard that answer.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You've already had that question answered.

6 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think I would like to, with the Court's

7 permission, put a part of the witness statement to him and ask him about a

8 specific part of that statement at this point in time. Now, this is done

9 in different ways in different cases, but I think I would like to try to

10 refresh the witness's memory on one point.

11 MR. LUKIC: If my learned friend is impeaching his own witness, we

12 would understand that; but, otherwise, he had his question answered two

13 times, and we would object to this question.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I see the statement, please, and the paragraph

15 that's relevant?

16 MR. MARCUSSEN: It's paragraph 17, Your Honour.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, what's the significance you attach to

19 the suggestion that he may be -- that Mr. Marcussen may be impeaching his

20 own witness?

21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, you read that part of the statement and,

22 obviously, we have a different answer now, although it's not clear whether

23 that part of statement is in any connection with any action.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't have any -- any different answer though.

25 All I'm doing is looking at this to see what -- what's the appropriate

Page 9620

1 step to take in relation to it.

2 MR. LUKIC: In -- on page 48, line 21.


4 MR. LUKIC: There is a question: "Do you know whether your

5 detachment commander had any meetings with any of the accused," and he

6 said "I don't know."


8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Sorry. That could mean that he doesn't remember.


10 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm sorry.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: What I'm trying to understand is your reference to

12 impeachment. What you're saying is that he can challenge the witness? Is

13 that your point?

14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, that's our point, and I think that he is

15 challenging his witness. He got an answer -- two answers.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, and he may do that. Is that what you're

17 saying?

18 MR. LUKIC: I'm saying that he cannot, otherwise he can -- he only

19 can say that he does not want this witness and does not want his testimony

20 today here if he's impeaching his own witness.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what's your authority for that proposition?

22 MR. LUKIC: I can't recall by heart from the previous trials.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I see. You say that's a rule of this Tribunal, do

24 you? It's not one I'm familiar with, but I'm here to be educated.

25 MR. LUKIC: I'm not sure, but I think that something similar

Page 9621

1 happened in Omarska 1 case. We had discussion about it.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, I'm familiar with a process being followed

3 here in at least one other case where a witness was declared hostile.

4 MR. LUKIC: Then he has to declare him being hostile and to

5 establish why.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I find it difficult to see what the significance of

7 all that is just from a common sense point of view. I just don't

8 understand, at the moment, why it's necessary to go through some formal

9 process when what may be involved is simply a jogging of the memory. It's

10 not clear to me at the moment that what would happen would be more than

11 simply jogging the witnesses memory.

12 MR. LUKIC: They had the chance to jog his memory, and we think

13 that that question was asked and answered two times. Now we have -- my

14 learn friend is trying to ask the witness the same question a third time.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm not satisfied that it's entirely clear.

16 MR. LUKIC: And, Your Honour, if --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And, therefore, I'm going to ask a question myself.

18 MR. LUKIC: And if you can establish the time frame, please, and

19 in relation with what.

20 MR. MARCUSSEN: May I address a legal point before that?


22 MR. MARCUSSEN: I asked the Chamber what guidance on the procedure

23 here, because there have been instances where the hostile witness approach

24 has been taken. I also don't remember my precise case for this, but there

25 is at least one instance where this kind of procedure has not been adopted

Page 9622

1 in this place.

2 I think in many places you can refresh a witness memory. We can

3 also -- I can keep this question and we can do the legal research and come

4 back to you on this, if that assists Your Honours.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: K79, the Prosecutor is anxious to know whether you

6 have any knowledge of any meeting between your detachment commander and

7 any of the accused, and that includes whether you had ever heard of such

8 meetings. He's not confining his question to simply the situation where

9 you personally were aware of it. Now, what is the position? Have you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear about such meetings.

11 Your Honour, my commander had meetings with Obrad Stefanovic, the

12 commander of the PJP units. Mr. Lukic was not the commander of the PJP

13 units, and I don't see why they would have to meet.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what's the number, Mr. Marcussen, of this

15 statement?

16 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, it -- the statement doesn't -- it isn't yet

17 uploaded into the system because he was, as was discussed this morning,

18 initially thought of as a live witness. We could add the statement, and

19 it would then have Exhibit number P2653.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: In May of last year, May 2006, you gave a statement

21 to the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you remember doing that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: And in that statement, it says that your detachment

24 commander, whom you name in the statement, used to go to meetings with

25 Sreten Lukic in Pristina; and you say that you knew this because your

Page 9623

1 deputy company commander, and you name him, told you about these meetings;

2 and you also say that on one occasion you drove to one of these meetings

3 in Prizren.

4 Now -- sorry. Ignore the last part of the driving's to a

5 different meeting.

6 So your statement reflects you saying that your detachment

7 commander met Lukic in Pristina [Realtime transcript read in error

8 "Prizren"] and that you knew this from your deputy company commander.

9 Now, why did you say that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I said.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Tell us now what you said.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this was understood wrongly.

13 I said that my commander used to go to meetings in Prizren, and on one

14 occasion I drove the deputy company commander to that meeting. That's all

15 in that context. I didn't mention Pristina. It was probably

16 misunderstood and wrongly written down.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: The trouble with that is that you subsequently

18 signed it, which tends to acknowledge that it's accurate.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only said what I saw

20 and what I knew. Maybe I failed to notice that that's what it said, but

21 I'm sure I didn't say this. I know about the meetings in Prizren, not

22 about meetings in Pristina.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, just one clarification. It might add up

25 to the confusion. Page 53, line 7. Your question was in "Pristina" and

Page 9624

1 in transcript it says "Prizren."

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. It should be Pristina.

3 Mr. Marcussen, you were going to say something I think?

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: If the Court would allow me to, I think I would

5 like to proceed with the rest of the examination and consider whether I

6 need to get back on this point. There are some other issues that I need

7 to consider in this regard. So if you would allow me to leave this one

8 hanging in the air or --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. You will have to address us on how you --


11 JUDGE BONOMY: -- intend to tackle it, because all I've done is

12 establish for the moment whether the witness, at this stage, accepts the

13 accuracy of the statement, which he doesn't.

14 But it's a separate question for you to decide whether you wish to

15 pursue to establish whether this is in fact a statement he gave or not,

16 and that's the matter that will be left in abeyance until -- and indeed

17 any other questions in relation to this issue until you decide what you

18 wish to do.

19 It's now an appropriate time for us to have the break in any

20 event.

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: We need to have your break again. This time it

23 will be for 20 minutes. We'll presume at -- well, we will resume at 25

24 minutes past, for the avoidance of any doubt. We will go into closed

25 session while you leave the courtroom.

Page 9625

1 [Closed session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Marcussen.

9 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. K79, during the operations in September 1998, did you go to the

11 Bajgora area?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember approximately when in September that was, what

14 part of September?

15 A. Well, I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was around

16 mid-September, around the 10th or 15th.

17 Q. Where in that area did you go?

18 A. Above the Stari Trg mine.

19 Q. Could you describe what happened when you arrived there?

20 A. In a house, we found three Albanians and two women.

21 MR. LUKIC: I apologise, Your Honour. We would just object. The

22 same line of objections, that this is not part of our indictment.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: But this is the part that you say is in the

24 pre-trial brief; is that right?

25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, but not specifically.

Page 9626

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Just reference to Bajgora as an area.

2 MR. LUKIC: That's right.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We note the objection. Thank you.


5 Q. Okay. Let's go back just a little bit. How did you get to

6 Bajgora?

7 A. On trucks up to the mine of Stari Trg, and then we went up to the

8 hill on foot.

9 Q. And when you came to the hill, what instructions were you given

10 there in relation to the operations?

11 A. We were supposed to clean up the area from members of the KLA.

12 Q. Did you -- did you search houses in the area?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there any -- any people in the houses?

15 A. In some there were, and in others there weren't.

16 Q. And did you find any weapons?

17 A. Where the three men and the two women were we found a rifle and a

18 combat vest.

19 Q. Could you tell us what happened to the men?

20 A. They were shot dead, executed.

21 Q. Without mentioning any names, could you tell us who shot the men?

22 A. The policemen who were with me.

23 Q. How far away were you from the place where the men were shot?

24 A. Fifty metres.

25 Q. Did you --

Page 9627

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Were these police part of your detachment?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.


4 Q. Did you see the people getting shot?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Before they got shot, did anything happen to them?

7 A. Well, they questioned them.

8 Q. And how were they treated during the questioning?

9 A. They beat them.

10 Q. Did you see what part of the body the men were shot in?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where were they shot?

13 A. In the head.

14 Q. And -- and what happened to the two women?

15 A. One was an elderly one and the other one was younger. I think the

16 younger one was raped, and afterwards they were both shot dead, too.

17 Q. Did you see them getting raped, or did you see the young one get

18 raped?

19 A. Yes. I saw through the window.

20 Q. Did you -- did you see them getting killed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And where were you when you saw that?

23 A. Next to the house.

24 Q. Still looking through the window?

25 A. They took them out, and they killed them outside.

Page 9628

1 Q. What happened to -- to the house where this -- did anything happen

2 to the house where these things had taken place?

3 A. The house was set on fire later when we started leaving.

4 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm moving on to something else, but I think we

5 need to go into private session for a minute.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we do that, are you able to name any of the

7 police officers involved in this -- rather, the policemen involved in

8 this?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Go into private session.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9629











11 Page 9629 redacted. Private session















Page 9630

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


24 Q. K79, after the incident that we have just been talking about,

25 where did you go?

Page 9631

1 A. We went to the inner area of Bajgora.

2 Q. Did you stay there overnight?

3 A. Yes, by a house.

4 Q. Could you describe that house for us?

5 A. It's an older house. That was the only house in that area. A

6 woman lived there and a young man who was mentally ill.

7 MR. LUKIC: Same objection, Your Honour. It's before.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: That's noted, Mr. Lukic. Thank you.


10 Q. Did you spend the night at the house?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did anyone from your -- from your company do so?

13 A. Yes, yes. The command squad spent the night in the house.

14 Q. Did anything happen to the woman and the young man?

15 A. They were killed in the morning.

16 Q. Do you know who killed them?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I think I'll ask that we go into private

19 session again.


21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9632

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


13 Q. And you went back to the base. How did you get back?

14 A. On trucks, the same way -- the same way we got there.

15 Q. Approximately, where did you get back on the trucks?

16 A. We were walking and the trucks were waiting for us somewhere, I

17 think, around Vucitrn or in front of it. Or was it Obilic? I can't

18 remember. And then we boarded the trucks and we went to Orahovac.

19 Q. How many vehicles were you in when you were driving back to

20 Orahovac?

21 A. Well, there were seven or eight trucks; two or three jeeps; two

22 tanks, I think; and two Pragas.

23 Q. As you were driving back, did anything happen?

24 A. We met up with another unit in Pristina; and then from Pristina to

25 Suva Reka, as we were taking that road, we were overtaken by car. I

Page 9633

1 think it was a Toyota Corolla or something like that; then the car was

2 stopped. there were two young men in the car. They were taken out,

3 beaten up and killed.

4 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we have the same objection for the record

5 as well.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.


8 Q. And did you -- did you see them getting killed?

9 A. Yes. All of that happened behind our truck, on the road.

10 Q. Was your detachment commander in the column of cars that were

11 driving back?

12 A. He was, but he was in front, at the head of the column.

13 Q. Did -- did he know that these people were getting killed?

14 A. That I don't know.

15 Q. In September, during these operations --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move off this. How did the car come to

17 be stopped?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Jeep that was behind us blocked

19 the road for that vehicle, and then that vehicle had to stop.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not following. You originally said that you

21 were overtaken by this car.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not my truck. The convoy that was

23 behind us was being overtaken by him.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Marcussen.


Page 9634

1 Q. During the operations in -- in September, did you come across

2 groups of refugees?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where was that?

5 A. All over: Drenica, Cicavica, Bajgora.

6 Q. And in your estimate, how big were these groups?

7 A. From 5.000 to 20.000.

8 Q. Did -- did you ever get close to any of these groups of refugees?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. Where?

11 A. I think in Drenica.

12 Q. Did any of your members of your detachment ever make close contact

13 with some of these refugees?

14 A. Yes. All of us were in close contact.

15 Q. Were -- were there any ever -- were there ever any incidents that

16 you witnessed where refugees were asked to hand over money or other

17 valuables?

18 MR. LUKIC: Same objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: It's noted, Mr. Lukic, thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


22 Q. Could you describe that for us, please.

23 A. Well, they went from one refugee to another and asked for money,

24 or they'd call one representative from each group and ask for money, and

25 they told them if they didn't give any money they would kill all of them.

Page 9635

1 That was done by a small group of policemen.

2 Q. And -- and these policemen, that small group of policemen, were

3 they from your detachment?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you -- were women also asked to hand over money or valuables?

6 A. Everybody. It was women who had the money on them for the most

7 part.

8 Q. Were they ever searched, or were they just asked for money?

9 A. In some cases, there were searches; but in most cases, they asked

10 for money.

11 Q. Did you ever witness any women being asked to take their clothes

12 off so they could be checked that they were not hiding money?

13 A. Yes. They asked one of them to take off her bra because that's

14 usually where they kept their money.

15 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if we could avoid leading questions,

16 please.

17 MR. MARCUSSEN: I will do my best, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Marcussen.


20 Q. Do you know what -- what -- what unit the people who took the

21 money belonged to?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did -- did they keep the money for themselves?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were any of the officers in your detachment ever given any money?

Page 9636

1 A. They shared it with the company commander.

2 Q. Did -- did you see that yourself?

3 A. Yes. My platoon commander protested against that, but nothing

4 came out of it.

5 Q. Did you ever witness anything that could be described as looting?

6 A. I was an eyewitness of what we are talking about.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we go on to anything else, let's clarify

8 your platoon commander's position. You said, "he protested." I take it

9 that he wasn't protesting that he wasn't getting his share, so tell us

10 what his protest was.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He protested because they were

12 taking money from the refugees in that way. He even wanted to have a

13 fight with the company commander.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And to whom did he make the protest?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the company commander. He told

16 him it was not in order, that this was looting.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Marcussen.


19 Q. Did you ever witness your company commander sharing any other

20 things other than money and jewellery with anyone?

21 A. Yes. He brought three truckloads of technical goods, TV sets,

22 video recorders, video cameras, washing machines. And this is all common

23 knowledge.

24 Q. Did you see these trucks yourself?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9637

1 Q. And where did all this -- all these things, where did they come

2 from?

3 A. These things were from the houses in the various villages. It was

4 taken and loaded onto trucks. A group of five or six men did that.

5 Q. And where did you see those three trucks?

6 A. In our base.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell us when this was?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in September 1998.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


11 Q. During these operations, were you also in the area of the village

12 of Glogovac?

13 A. Glogovac is not a village, it's a town; but yes, yes, we were.

14 Q. Did anybody from your detachment kill anyone there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you see that killing yourself?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please describe what it was you saw.

19 MR. LUKIC: Just the same objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A policeman killed two civilians.

22 He ordered them to lie down and then he shot them.


24 Q. Do you know the name of this policeman?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9638

1 MR. MARCUSSEN: I think we should go into private session and deal

2 with some different matters.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9639











11 Pages 9639-9643 redacted. Private session















Page 9644

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


15 Q. When -- when the NATO bombing started on the 24th of March, 1999,

16 where were you?

17 A. In the base.

18 Q. So that would be in Orahovac?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And were you sent out on -- on an operation on that day or shortly

21 after?

22 A. On the 25th in the morning, we went in the direction of the

23 village of Velika Hoca, Zociste, Opterusa, Dobrodeljani, and then Pagarusa

24 to mop up that area of KLA members.

25 Q. And you say "we." Who was that?

Page 9645

1 A. I'm referring to my company.

2 Q. And did you have -- have any support by tanks and Pragas on this

3 operation?

4 A. Yes, but only as far as Opterusa. They did not fire on that

5 occasion.

6 Q. Did you see any refugees?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Where did you stay in the evening of the 25th of March?

9 A. In the hills around those villages.

10 Q. Was anybody killed that night?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What about the next morning?

13 A. Two civilians were killed in Drobodeljani and one civilian in

14 Pagarusa.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... out of the

16 indictment.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So we're now in 1999. Can you help me where this

18 is covered in the indictment?

19 MR. MARCUSSEN: This is not a specifically charged incident. It

20 is in the Orahovac-Suva Reka area.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Why don't we concentrate the evidence in this case

22 on what we've got charges for?

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Because in our submission, this is relevant to the

24 nature of the operation that was carried out. Now, we have shown how

25 operations were carried out in July, from July through to the end of the

Page 9646

1 year of 1998.

2 We have shown how there have been evidence also from other

3 witnesses in both what we call crime base and internationals about all

4 these operations with a view to establish what happened with these

5 operations. It's part of our case that --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: What operations -- what evidence from

7 internationals about all the operations are you referring to?

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, all the different reports that have been

9 from the OSCE, the KVM, concerns about the way the heavy handedness of the

10 operations, allegations that crimes were being committed during these

11 so-called anti-terrorist operations. Now, this is -- this witness have

12 given evidence about confirming that actually crimes --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, give me an example of what you're referring

14 to about reports establishing this.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: I don't have the specific exhibit numbers. Maybe

16 I should have had that. But a witness like Drewienkiewicz was here and

17 told about how they continuously would raise concerns about the way these

18 anti-terrorist operations were carried out. We've had a number of other

19 witnesses --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: But he wasn't telling us about -- he wasn't giving

21 evidence about people witnessing atrocities directly. It wasn't evidence

22 of that nature.

23 MR. MARCUSSEN: Because the KVM reporters were not there on the

24 ground to see themselves. What we have here is a witness who was on the

25 ground.

Page 9647

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Why don't you just include in the indictment on

2 such-and-such a day this witness was in X, or just make the averment that

3 people were killed in the course of an operation. Is it in the pre-trial

4 brief this stuff?

5 MR. MARCUSSEN: As -- as part of the general operations that were

6 carried out in Kosovo from -- I mean, we're now within the indictment

7 period -- a specifically charged incident. We're talking about an event

8 which took place at the same time as the crime at Suva Reka and all the

9 other locations that we -- most of the locations, the events that took

10 place right after the NATO bombing started.

11 Now, part of this case is about whether or not that was a part of

12 a wide-spread or systematic attack. Now, it might be sufficient for the

13 Chamber to make inferences just from the specifically charged incidents.

14 The Prosecution would like to lead further evidence about how these --

15 these operations were carried out.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: How is it you decide which ones to charge and which

17 ones not to charge?

18 MR. MARCUSSEN: There is a limit to how much I can go into this.

19 But, Your Honour, we have -- as I said earlier, this is a witness who

20 stepped forward quite late in the process. He was selected because he was

21 an insider who would be willing to come and tell about this. We think

22 it's important that we hear people from the Serb side who step forward and

23 talk about these events.

24 We would have had to amend the indictment in June or something

25 like that to include the specifics if we had been wanting to charge these

Page 9648

1 different incidents as charged incidents with which -- where we're

2 questioning -- that we want to hold the accused responsible, or even if we

3 just wanted to add the facts as background facts. At that point in time,

4 it was considered too late in the day for something like that.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: To late to put it in the indictment, but not too

6 late to lead it as part of your case. I mean, that doesn't make any

7 logical sense.

8 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, in our submission, it's covered by the

9 general allegations in the indictment and for -- it is sufficient to

10 give -- to disclose these statements to the Defence so they can prepare

11 their -- they've been having more than half a year to prepare for this

12 witness to come and testify.

13 There are also practical considerations that have gone into this.

14 We've been trying to accommodate a trial schedule after the indictment had

15 been amended -- well, actually four times. One was a third amended

16 indictment.

17 So all these factors lead to the Prosecutor exercising her

18 discretion the way she has. If -- in an ideal world, we would have been

19 able to carry out a full investigation, finish the investigation, make a

20 final indictment.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've had eight years to do it.

22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yeah. But yet we still had a witness like this

23 step forward in May.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: But there has to be some finality to things that

25 happen in the world. We have to move on. It's a constantly advancing

Page 9649

1 world and there must be a limit drawn somewhere on the way in which the

2 trial process is to be conducted.

3 Let's consider the position.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: We will follow the same course with this as we have

6 been following, but we should indicate we are less sympathetic at the

7 moment to this particular situation. The fact that additional witnesses

8 come forward is not in itself justification for just piling them into the

9 case, when clearly this indictment was drawn the Prosecution believed they

10 had a case to present.

11 It doesn't follow that it's legitimate to lead witnesses speaking

12 about incidents that are not in the indictment just because they happen to

13 come forward late. But we will review this question along with the other

14 objections at the end of the evidence of this witness.

15 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I think we need to go

16 in-- very briefly to private session once again.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9650

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.


7 Q. The day after this occurred, where did you go?

8 A. We went to Korisa.

9 Q. Where -- where did you stay -- sorry. When did you come to

10 Korisa?

11 A. Around the 2nd or 3rd of April, something like that.

12 MR. LUKIC: Same objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That's noted, Mr. Lukic. Thank you.


15 Q. Where were you before you came to Korisa?

16 A. Well, we were in that area. I already said Opterusa, Pagarusa,

17 that area.

18 Q. And while you were there around the -- the 2nd of April, did you

19 witness any more people getting killed?

20 A. We were there before the 2nd of April.

21 Q. Sorry. Where were you before the 2nd of April?

22 A. Pagarusa.

23 Q. And what happened at Pagarusa?

24 A. An old man was killed there.

25 Q. Was he killed by a member of your detachment?

Page 9651

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We'll get back to this, but I'll move on to something else.

3 So after this occurred, you were in Korisa.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was -- was your company commander there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did your detachment commander also come?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How was the morale in your -- in your company at that point in

10 time?

11 A. Well, I think it was normal.

12 Q. Did -- did you hear a conversation between your company commander

13 and the detachment commander about the morale in your unit -- in your

14 company?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell us what you heard, please?

17 A. The detachment commander said to our commander to let the army

18 loot so that morale would be higher.

19 Q. In the translation, this came across as he said that the -- he

20 should let the army loot. Was that what he said?

21 A. No. He meant us. He meant policemen, but that was the word he

22 used.

23 Q. And -- and after that, what were you -- were you ordered to do

24 anything?

25 A. Yes. We were ordered to move Albanians out of a village there.

Page 9652

1 Q. What was the name of the village?

2 A. Ljubizda.

3 MR. LUKIC: I don't know if it's necessary to object again, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, indeed, you should, and I note the objection.

6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.


8 Q. What were you ordered to -- was any force used to achieve this?

9 A. No force. We went from one house to the other and told the

10 Albanians that they had to move out, to go towards Prizren. We were

11 driving them out and the army was bringing them back.

12 Q. Were they told to leave Kosovo?

13 A. That I don't know.

14 Q. Why did the army bring them back?

15 A. I don't know about that either.

16 Q. How long did you stay in -- in the village Ljubizda?

17 A. Well, about a month.

18 Q. Did you see any refugees in the area?

19 A. Yes. Refugees were all over the place.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell me how long they were away from their

21 homes in Ljubizda before the army brought them back?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps about two hours.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: And did that happen only once?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. At that moment, as we

25 were driving them out, the army was bringing them back into the village.

Page 9653

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Marcussen.


3 Q. Do you know what ethnicity the villagers were?

4 A. Well, there were some Serbs, some Albanians, and some Gorani. So

5 the composition of the village was mixed.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Your original answer was that you were ordered to

7 move Albanians out of Ljubizda, I think.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: So you didn't have to move the Serbs?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Marcussen.


13 Q. Now, the -- do you know what the ethnicity of the villagers

14 that -- that returned to the village were?

15 A. They were Albanians and Gorani.

16 MR. MARCUSSEN: Your Honour, I don't have an awful lot more to do,

17 but I do maybe have another 15 minutes or 20 minutes or something like

18 that. So I see we are approaching the --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: You can take another five minutes just now and then

20 we'll finish.

21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.



24 Q. Around this time, were you at the it Suva Reka-Prizren road?

25 A. Yes, yes. That's the road that goes by Korisa.

Page 9654

1 Q. Did you see refugees on that road?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were they sort of in one -- could you describe how that looked?

4 How -- what did you see there?

5 A. It was a long column on the road. There were vehicles, tractors,

6 trucks full of people, and they were all moving towards Prizren.

7 Q. How long was the column, if you know?

8 A. Well, I don't know exactly but it was long, I think, about 30

9 kilometres. My colleagues talked about it, and they said it was about 30

10 kilometres, almost from Suva Reka to Prizren.

11 MR. LUKIC: Same objection, Your Honour.

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: This is --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: We're in a rather different territory are we not,

14 Mr. Lukic, when we --

15 MR. LUKIC: No, we're not, Your Honour. Time frame, completely

16 different.


18 MR. MARCUSSEN: There's a general allegation in the indictment

19 that 800.000 Albanians were expelled from Kosovo from March until July

20 1999. And these events, we've heard plenty of crime base witnesses

21 talking about being expelled from the Suva Reka area and other parts of

22 Kosovo from March, in April, and May. This -- I'm going to clarify with

23 the witness when --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know offhand if we've had evidence relating

25 to April or May, because the averments relate to March.

Page 9655

1 MR. LUKIC: But, definitely, it's not in the pre-trial brief or in

2 the indictment.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll reserve this question also.


5 Q. When did you -- when did you see this column? About what date?

6 A. The 2nd and 3rd of April, something like that.

7 Q. Where were you on -- on the 5th of April?

8 A. On the 5th of April, we were in the village of Budakovo.

9 MR. LUKIC: Same objection, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this going to be a suitable point to interrupt,

11 Mr. Marcussen?

12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, Your Honour, that's fine. Thank you.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That objection is also noted and will be taken

14 along with the others.

15 That brings the proceedings for today to an end, K79. You'll need

16 to return tomorrow. That will be at 9.00. We will continue your evidence

17 at that stage. It's very important that between now and then you do not

18 discuss your evidence with anyone, and by that I mean anyone at all, and

19 that refers either to the evidence you've given or the evidence you may

20 yet give. You can talk about anything else to anybody you want, but not

21 about the evidence to anyone.

22 Now, we'll go into closed session so that you can leave the

23 courtroom.

24 Can we have the button at that end as well, please, from the

25 security officer?

Page 9656

1 [Closed session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 2nd day of

6 February, 2007, at 9:00 a.m.