1 Tuesday, 27 February 2007
2 [Closed session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, good morning, Witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Your examination by Mr. Bakrac will continue in a
13 moment. I remind you that the solemn declaration to speak the truth which
14 you made at the very beginning of your evidence continues to apply to that
15 evidence today.
16 Mr. Bakrac.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning
18 to all.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS K54 [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning, Witness K54.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. Yesterday it was the end of the day. We spoke about the very
25 beginning of your statement where you said that you spent 14 days at
1 headquarters, and your explanation was that what you meant was barracks.
2 In the first paragraph of your statement, you said that you were in a
3 logistics unit. Did a logistics unit exist at that time at all?
4 A. I don't understand you.
5 Q. I'm saying that in the first paragraph at the end you said: "When
6 I was a driver in the logistics unit." Was there such a thing as the
7 logistics unit?
8 A. Sorry, what was that? Logistics? What did that mean?
9 Q. That's what I'm asking you. You said logistics unit and you say
10 that you don't know what that means. How did you give this statement?
11 Was the statement first written out in the Serbian language and then
12 translated or can you tell us how it went?
13 A. I gave my statement in the Serbian language, but then the
14 interpreter was interpreting. How can I know?
15 Q. Then the statement was written out in English?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It was translated for you?
18 A. No, it wasn't translated for me.
19 Q. It wasn't translated to you at all?
20 A. As far as I can remember.
21 Q. So you did not even read what it was that you stated?
22 A. Well, they read it out to me.
23 Q. Oh, they read it out to you?
24 A. I cannot remember all the details that are contained in the
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have the statement in front of you? No.
2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we have a hard copy of that statement in B/C/S,
5 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, if I may assist, I would have hard
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you look at the very first paragraph of the
8 statement, and you'll see a reference to your training -- go towards the
9 end of the first paragraph. You'll see a reference to: "Our training was
10 fast-tracked and we finished within" --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, would you read from there to the end of the
13 paragraph, please. Just read it out to us.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I was sent to Prizren where I was a
15 driver in the logistics unit." Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So you read it out but in actual fact, you don't know what it
19 means at all?
20 A. It means -- it's the service for providing services to the army;
21 that is what I heard in the army that that is what logistics was.
22 Q. It was called the logistics unit then?
23 A. That's what I heard.
24 Q. All right. Tell me, so the second paragraph when you say that you
25 spent it in headquarters, you were actually in barracks?
1 A. Sir, one knows what is barracks; it is a staff, a headquarters.
2 That's what I think. I mean, we called it "stab," headquarters, or
3 "baza," base.
4 Q. Let's move on because our time is limited. So on the 10th of June
5 you came to Prizren and the 24th of June -- or rather, after 14 days that
6 you spent in the base or barracks, as you said, you were deployed in a
7 village that is called Damjane. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And in the village of Damjane you spent two and a half months;
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So on the 10th of June, if you came to Prizren then, two weeks, 14
13 days in barracks, that's the 24th of June, and two and a half months in
14 Damjane, that is mid-September. Now, tell me when was it that you were
15 telling the truth, when you said this or when you wrote in the statement
16 that -- please don't interrupt me. I'm the one who is putting the
17 questions and then you will answer. On the 3rd of August you went on
18 leave and you did not return and you deserted. So what is true out of
19 those two?
20 A. When I gave my statement. I did not pay attention to exact bits
21 of information. I sort of said around two and a half months and then
22 after that I remembered the dates. I remembered the date when I went
24 Q. Now, today, I asked you yet again, because after giving the
25 statement you remembered. I asked you yet again whether you were in the
1 village of Damjane two and a half months and you said yes, and the
2 difference is not negligible, you know a month and a two, there's a big
3 difference. It's not a question of days. I wouldn't --
4 A. June, July -- oh, then I made a mistake in my statement. When I
5 made the statement I didn't do my math right at those moments. Perhaps
6 they wrote something and I wasn't paying attention to it. All right. Let
7 it be a month and a half rather than two and a half months.
8 Q. This is not a marketplace. Let's not bargain. Have you read the
10 A. I read the statement but I didn't really pay attention.
11 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I think the witness has answered this
12 question. He has already explained the difference.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: And we're just to accept the explanation, are we?
14 Is counsel not entitled to inquire into it and challenge it?
15 MS. MOELLER: Well, I think he has put the same question -- "this
16 is not a marketplace" was a comment. It was not a question, I think.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just look at the answer which drew the comment.
18 "All right, let it be a month and a half." It's not surprising the
19 comment was made.
20 Please carry on, Mr. Bakrac.
21 You know, one of the difficulties we have here is the way in which
22 these statements are prepared and we have great difficulty in working out
23 at times whether it's the fault of the person, possibly inadequately
24 qualified who takes the statement or it's the fault of the witness that we
25 end up with these mistakes. It's an unfortunate intrusion into the job we
1 have to do that we have to think maybe we're being unfair to the witness
2 in blaming him and it should perhaps be the investigator.
3 However, let's carry on, Mr. Bakrac.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you have to understand
5 the Defence as well, especially in this situation when what was disclosed
6 to us was practically just before the examination began, and when we did
7 not have any opportunity to investigate the locations and everything
8 else. So this is the only way of seeing what the credibility of the
9 witness is and whether he's telling the truth.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment. Are you saying this was only
11 recently disclosed? This is a statement from 2002.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, that's precisely what I was
13 saying yesterday, Your Honour. In September, that's when it was disclosed
14 to us. I'm saying recently, as compared to the date when the statement
15 was actually taken. It was disclosed to us in September 2006.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
17 Ms. Moeller.
18 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, it was disclosed on 26th August, 2006,
19 the day we first filed the application to add this witness to the witness
20 list, but his transcript was part of the Milosevic transcripts, all of
21 which were disclosed to the Defence as part of the overall disclosure at
22 the very beginning of the case, not the statement but the transcript,
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Please carry on, Mr. Bakrac.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. So on the 3rd of August, you went to do your military service and
2 you returned to your unit in October; right?
3 A. I was returned.
4 Q. You were returned in October?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in your statement -- and you said that during your direct
21 Q. I'm asking you once again: Did you have an opportunity to read
22 your statement?
23 A. Yes, but I am the one who made a mistake and you are asking me
24 something that is unnecessary right now.
25 Q. I am the one who's here to say what is necessary and what is not
1 and it's for the Court to say --
2 A. Sorry, I made a mistake.
3 Q. When was it that they returned you then?
4 A. On the 21st of October. I was 20 -- I was in military
5 investigative prison for 20 days. 20 days later they returned me to the
6 same unit. I am sorry about these mistakes.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yesterday you were asked when you had actually
8 returned to duty. Now, tell us as close as you can the date that you were
9 actually returned to your unit after your period in custody.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 21st of October. I have a
11 document at home as well, but I didn't bring it along.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Following the 21st of October, however, did you
13 spend 20 days in custody?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
17 Q. You say that you were deployed in Combat Group 2. When you say
18 that you were deployed in Combat Group 2, what period of time are you
19 actually referring to?
20 A. The period from the 10th of June, I mean when I came to barracks,
21 the 10th of June, and then I was in barracks 14 days, and then after that
22 the village of Damjane, Rogovo and Damjane that was the same thing but we
23 called it Damjane.
1 Q. And how many combat groups were you servicing?
2 A. While I was out there in the field, it was only that group, that
3 group, that's the group that I provided services to.
4 Q. Yesterday you told us that you serviced all five combat groups.
5 Yet again, what is true out of the two?
6 A. Sir, I did not spend my entire military service in this combat
7 group. For a while I was in barracks, for a while I was in the 2nd combat
8 group and then the 3rd combat group, and I had other friends of mine,
9 soldiers who were also involved in these shifts a bit, one of us would be
10 there and then another one and we would take shifts.
11 Q. Oh, this is the third version we hear. Yesterday in your
12 statement you said that you serviced all three -- all five combat groups,
13 you gave them water and food?
14 A. I'm going to explain this to you now as well. A month and a half
15 or two I spent with this combat group, as I already said; then I got a
16 replacement. There was another shift. I went back to barracks. Let's
17 put it that way, and I was on the run, and then I was returned. I did not
18 go out into the field, but from the headquarters I took water to the
19 combat group every third day and then the third one and then the fourth
20 one and then these relations changed.
21 Q. Did you take water to the 5th combat group?
22 A. No.
23 Q. But you said --
24 A. Well, maybe, maybe, I cannot remember now. It's been a long time
25 and the army was all over Prizren.
1 Q. So it's possible that the 5th one was there too?
2 A. Possible.
3 Q. What would you say to me if I were to tell you that there was no
4 such thing as a 5th combat group?
5 A. Well, perhaps that was true. I know there was Lopuski Han, I
6 know -- I can't remember now and then this vineyard.
7 Q. So you don't know?
8 A. It doesn't really matter this fifth group, perhaps. Well, at any
9 rate, there were combat groups. I know that for sure.
10 Q. I'm just going to ask you in order for us to go our separate ways
11 as soon as possible -- and we speak the same language so we have to make
12 things easier for the interpreters. We speak the same language. What we
13 are talking about cannot really be interpreted.
14 So Combat Group 2 where you were at first was in Damjane; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And what would you say to me if I were to put it to you that you
17 are not telling the truth, that combat group -- that Combat Group 2 was in
18 the areas of Babaj Boks and Zub and there are documents to prove that?
19 A. I've never heard of these villages.
20 Q. You've never heard of Zub?
21 A. Zupa?
22 Q. Zub.
23 A. No.
24 Q. No, you you've never heard of that, great. Now I'm going refer
25 you to your statement.
1 When you were mentioning where you took the five corpses, you said
2 that you turned at the village of Zub, taking the road towards Dragas, and
3 now you're telling us that you don't know where Zub is.
4 A. It is Zur, Z-u-r. It's a mistake. It's a tiny village of Zur
5 instead of Zub, close to the Vrmice border crossing. This is where you
6 turn towards Dragas and then at a bend you can turn towards the mountain
7 and the border post of Stojanovic. It's Zur, not Zub.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: In the English version of the statement it is also
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You got me confused for a moment
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
14 Q. In your combat group you said there were 190 soldiers?
15 A. Yes, 160, 190. I never knew the exact figure, just an approximate
16 one. I never counted them.
17 Q. And yet again you are telling an untruth. In your group there
18 were 118 people, if you were in that group in the first place.
19 A. Well, in any case over 100. I said 190, but I didn't count them.
20 I couldn't possibly. I just approximated. If you understand me.
21 Q. While we're on the topic of the combat groups, you said that they
22 were in the area of Prizren, Orahovac, and Suva Reka. Those were the
23 combat groups from your brigade. Is that so?
24 A. What do you mean?
25 Q. I will read out that part to you.
1 You say: "There were five combat groups in the area of Prizren,
2 Orahovac, and Suva Reka." Is that untrue, that part of your statement,
3 this being the third, or rather, the second paragraph?
4 "In the area of Prizren (Suva Reka, Orahovac) there were five
5 combat groups."
6 A. I can't remember that.
7 Q. Therefore you didn't state that either?
8 A. I can't recall that at this moment.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: One of the things you may have to bear in mind,
10 Mr. Bakrac, is that the witness's recollection may have been much better
11 when this statement was given than it is now.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's been five years.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
14 Q. Very well. Let us look at some other discrepancies and let us
15 hope they will be more accurate.
16 A. I read this statement, and still I cannot recall some of the
17 details mentioned there.
18 Q. You will read out to us when and if I ask you to. Can you tell us
19 precisely about the establishment structure of your unit. Yesterday we
20 heard that you cannot tell us exactly what brigade you were part of, but
21 can you tell us what was the establishment structure or composition of
22 your unit?
23 A. What do you mean?
24 Q. What did it comprise, this logistics battalion?
25 A. The logistics battalion, if we are looking at the logistics
1 battalion as a unit per se. It had a fire-fighting department,
2 maintenance, drivers, and the mess. Is that good enough?
3 Q. We'll see.
4 A. That must be 100 per cent correct.
5 Q. Let us move on to -- oh, one more question. You say you were
6 deployed in the village of Damjane. Is it correct that the camp of the
7 combat group in the village of Damjane was on a little hill in front of
8 the village of Damjane on the border of a forested area. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it correct that the soldiers slept in tents and containers in
11 the village of Damjane?
12 A. Yes, and you forgot the hangar that was there.
13 Q. Hangar, tents, and containers. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How come in your statement you say, then, that Bozidar Delic
16 ordered that you get rid of all civilians and to expel them and then to
17 move into their houses? You are now telling something different.
18 A. I'll explain. When we came there the first day there is a small
19 school in that little village. We termed it Rogovo, although it wasn't,
20 but that's how we called it. There I spent the initial one and a half
21 months, the period that we had difference of opinion on before. When I
22 was absent from the army they remained there, and when I returned they
23 spent some additional time on that place and then moved on to Damjane. Do
24 you understand me?
25 Q. Therefore, you were not in Damjane. You are not telling us the
2 A. But this whole thing was called Damjane.
3 Q. So the area of the village of Damjane, the village itself.
4 A. The way I heard it referred to was Damjane.
5 Q. So the statement is incorrect?
6 A. The statement is correct.
7 Q. How can it be correct and now you're telling us something to the
9 A. I couldn't check the exact toponyms and the maps. I simply
10 referred to it the way others did. We sort of tend to generalise things,
11 we soldiers, and I didn't bother to look into detail what the name of the
12 village is, whose house it was, whose meadow it was, but it was referred
13 to as Damjane.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: The difficulty we have is that you say when you
15 arrived you stayed in a place that you called Rogovo. You were there for
16 one and a half months. Then you were away from the army, as we know. And
17 you say: "When I returned they spent some additional time on that place
18 and then moved on to Damjane."
19 Now, what do you mean by spending additional time in that place
20 and then moving on to Damjane?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They moved for the mere 2 or 3
22 kilometres towards the border. Everything else was the same.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Are these two different -- two separate villages?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was the same.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bakrac ...
3 JUDGE BONOMY: When you initially were ordered to remove the
4 civilians, where was that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The area of Damjane. There was a
6 settlement called Rogovo close by. I can't -- I can't explain
7 precisely. It was the area of Damjane.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Were the villagers removed only from part of the
9 area or from the whole of the area that you call Damjane?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From one part of it.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And what name do you give to that part?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We called it Damjane. We sort of
13 referred to it as Damjane. We used it as a reference point.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: So where does the name Rogovo come into all of
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rogovo was close by. One could see
17 it from a hill nearby, and you could see Orahovac as well.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the point of mentioning Rogovo to us? What
19 happened at Rogovo that you've now introduced that into this evidence?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do I know? Some called it
21 Rogovo, some called it Damjane, so I mentioned both. There were different
22 names in use. I didn't understand it, either. I wasn't interested in the
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that may be understandable, but one of the
25 things you've said is that you were initially in one place, which you were
1 calling Rogovo, and then after all your various adventures when you
2 returned, you spent some time there and then moved on to Damjane. Now, I
3 don't understand that at the moment and I would like you to help me to
4 understand it.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I can give my
6 statement again and focus on the facts. I was in the village of Rogovo in
7 a school there. This is where the Combat Group 2 was deployed at first,
8 and I spent there a month and a half or so. When I deserted, when I left
9 the army, I was absent for --
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but this is
11 important. The witness said Rogovo, and I don't see it in the transcript,
12 the name of the village where he was.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Upon my return, I didn't go out in
14 the field. I merely provided my services to Rogovo. I took water to the
15 troops there.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: But a part of your statement is about clearing a
17 place, a village, as you describe it, of all civilians, which is the bit
18 of your evidence that really matters, if it's true. And what we're trying
19 to establish is where the hell was that.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in Rogovo. That's where we
21 had ordered the civilians to leave their homes.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 Mr. Bakrac.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we please have
25 Exhibit P45 on e-court. It's a map, and perhaps on that map he can
1 indicate to us where Rogovo is and where Damjane is.
2 No, no, please scroll down. Very well. Thank you.
3 Q. Can you show us Damjane and Rogovo on this map.
4 A. It says "Rogovo" here. It's a tiny place.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher's
6 assistance in marking that spot and perhaps we should assign it an IC
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Rogovo.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
10 Q. Please put the number 1 or A there.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. It's the number 1, okay. Could you please put the number 2 next
13 to Damjane.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. Very well. And Damjane are close to the border.
16 A. If I may. First we were here. This we called Rogovo. A few
17 months later we moved somewhat to here. It's not much, but I spent a
18 month and a half or even as much as two months here.
19 Q. Therefore, for a month and a half or two you were --
20 A. At this place.
21 Q. This is the camp on the hill where the troops slept under tents
22 and in containers?
23 A. No. I slept at the school throughout, but this is where the camp
24 and the containers and the hangar was where I am placing a mark now.
25 Q. Was the school in the village of Rogovo --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: This map is now meaningless. So if you're going to
2 use this in a productive way, you're going to have to start again.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot stop the
4 witness. I cannot stop him from marking things on the map. I really am
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just explaining this.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have the map back on e-court
8 to mark it properly because this is really ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now what it is that you want me to
10 explain to you.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
12 Q. Could you draw Rogovo for me for one, 1, Rogovo.
13 A. Look at this, a little dot --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I find it difficult to know why we need marks for
15 certain things at all on maps. It is clear where Rogovo is said to be on
16 this map. It's equally clear where Damjane is said to be. What we need
17 to know is where is the school. Now, is it inside Rogovo or outside of
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wanted to
20 say. I wanted him to mark where the school was.
21 Your Honour, Your Honour, I beg your pardon, I wanted Rogovo to be
22 1, Damjane 2, and the school number 3, and not to have him draw anything
23 else on the map and to tell us where the school is.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you go. You've got it all on
25 the map now. I drew it for you.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
2 Q. Is this school in Damjane or Rogovo?
3 A. Between Damjane and Rogovo.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you also just tell us where the camp was before
5 you were in the school.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand this question.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: You've told us about a camp that consisted of
8 tents, containers, and a hangar. Where was that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this village of Damjane. That's
10 where the hangar was and the tents and these containers. As for this
11 village where the school is, the school was there and the houses around
12 the school before Damjane, between Rogovo and Damjane.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't think we'll need the map any
16 longer. Could it please be assigned an IC number.
17 Now I'm going to move on, Your Honours.
18 Q. In your statement on page 3, you --
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC125, Your Honours.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation].
21 Q. You spoke about an action between the 1st and 3rd of August, 1998.
22 And in your statement you said: "On that day Colonel Delic was with a
23 group, too. A tank was at the head and I was right behind the tank. The
24 infantry is -- was towards the end of this group."
25 As far as I understood your testimony and transcript, you were
1 right behind the tank with a water truck. Is that right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. In terms of establishment, when a unit goes into action, according
4 to rules of combat, does a water truck follow a tank?
5 A. Well, in that case, it's not according to establishment, but the
6 cooler of the tank broke down, so I had to add water into the tank.
7 Q. You're saying that only now after seven years?
8 A. After seven years.
9 Q. Eight years.
10 A. Well, that's the only reason why I was there.
11 Q. And if I were to tell you that a tank does not have a cooler at
12 all and no water at all, what would you say to me?
13 A. Oh, it sure does. I cannot remember. Well, it's not an 84. The
14 other one. It's the other one. It does have water, it sure does.
15 Q. What's the other one?
16 A. I cannot remember the type, because I was not in a unit in order
17 to know what tank and -- I know about the Dites [phoen] and the 110 and
18 the Pince [phoen], but I don't really know about tanks, and it's probably
19 the cooler that broke down, and I had to be there in order to add water to
20 the cooler.
21 Q. A tank stops and only then a water truck would come and re-fill it
22 with water.
23 A. Because of the tank, we travelled -- well, it was getting dark.
24 It was 15 kilometres, so it started getting dark and then we were in
25 Djakovica at 12.00. Now, figure it out, and four hours from Djakovica to
1 Prizren, that's really too much and all of that on account of a tank, and
2 I was by the tank all the time.
3 Q. You were travelling from Djakovica to Prizren?
4 A. Yes.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could counsel please not
6 interrupt the witness.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because of the tank because of
8 its broken cooler. I had to be by the tank in order to re-fill it with
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. The tank did not take part in action at all, right?
12 A. It did take part in action, but it just happened, the cooler broke
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Too quick, Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
16 Q. So the cooler broke down after the action?
17 A. Before the action.
18 Q. And that is how you moved into action and now you said that you
19 went from Djakovica to Prizren?
20 A. But the tank did not get off the road. It did not go into the
21 villages out there.
22 Q. So it did not go into action. It did not take part in this
24 A. It did take part in the action, but there was no need for it to go
25 off the road. It did its firing from the road. It has quite a long
1 range, a tank.
2 Q. What is this range?
3 A. Well, I don't know. From 7 kilometres onwards. How can I say.
4 Q. And what was the village that the tank fired a shell at?
5 A. Medvedce was the village as far as I can remember.
6 Q. The village of Medvedce?
7 A. Meca or Medvedce, I cannot remember any longer.
8 Q. And it targeted a house?
9 A. Yes, a house, twice, three times.
10 Q. That was on the 3rd of August, right?
11 A. That's what I think.
12 Q. Between the 1st and 3rd of August. At what time of day was it?
13 What time?
14 A. Well, between morning and noon, something like that.
15 Q. In the transcript at Mr. Milosevic's trial when he asked you about
16 that, you said to him that you remember full well that that house was
17 targeted and that smoke was coming out of the chimney. Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Between the 1st and 3rd of August when the temperature in that
20 area is 30 centigrade, is that right, smoke was coming out of the chimney?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Yes. All right.
23 A. Well, perhaps --
24 Q. Let's move on. Tell me, Colonel Delic, how did he indicate the
25 house? Did he show the house with his hand?
1 A. With his hand.
2 Q. What was the distance?
3 A. Between 150 and 200 metres, perhaps even 300 metres. I cannot say
4 now. Perhaps it was even 400.
5 Q. And Who was it that he indicated this to with his hand and who did
6 he tell to start firing?
7 A. The officer on the tank.
8 Q. Does this officer on the tank have a helmet or a cap?
9 A. Yes, but this one didn't.
10 Q. So he was in action on the road, he was standing on the turret of
11 the tank but he didn't have a cap?
12 A. Well, he did have a cap but it wasn't tied.
13 Q. You saw that, that it wasn't tied properly?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. He could hear Delic, what he was saying to him?
16 A. Perfectly.
17 Q. And the one at the turret, he targets -- could you just answer, or
18 rather, wait with your answer. We're moving too fast.
19 A. He's not the only person in the tank. There are other people
20 there, too. There's the driver and then there's the shooter.
21 Q. And the one from the turret went down and indicated to him
22 where --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, it's you that has to wait. It's very
24 difficult for witnesses, and an interpreter can probably cope with a
25 question and answer but when you get the answer you've really got to allow
1 a break. Thanks.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, to you
3 and to the interpreters, really. I get carried away by the answer and
4 then --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want an answer to this, what
6 you said just now? It wasn't a problem for him just to lean down a bit
7 and to talk to the marksman because it's the marksman who really moves the
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Oh, so he just bent over a bit instead of leaned towards him?
11 A. Precisely.
12 Q. So how did he know, the shooter, what to do and what -- the
13 gunner, what did he -- how did he know what house?
14 A. Well, when he leaned over I couldn't hear properly because I was
15 watching the house that was supposed to be targeted, and I wasn't really
16 paying attention to every little thing he said to him. But, in fact, I
17 was just waiting to see how the firing would to take place.
18 Q. What was that? You could hardly wait to see --
19 A. What would happen.
20 Q. You could hardly wait?
21 A. Well, it's not that I could hardly wait, but it's along those
22 lines. Heaven forbid that I could hardly wait for somebody to get killed,
23 but I was sort of waiting to see what would happen.
24 Q. Tell me, as for this house, did you indicate it in 2003 to the
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was it destroyed?
3 A. No.
4 Q. It wasn't destroyed?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Well, how did you recognise it, then?
7 A. I recognised it just right, although there were some changes. The
8 man had added some walls to it, altered it in a way. There's even a new
9 water-pump out there. So yes, I noticed that. Everything was sort of
11 Q. So there were additions made to the house; it was altered.
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. You were in this action just one day, and five years later you
14 recognised the house.
15 A. Yes, yes, I recognised it, and I recognised a little hill where we
16 had stopped, and even the kilometres, as far as I can remember. Well, we
17 recognised it. We took a picture of it. And even if we were to go now, I
18 could tell you where it is and where things are.
19 Q. Now I'm going to move on to a new topic, or, rather, to the year
20 1999. In your statement on page 5, you said that at 3.00 in the morning
21 on the 28th of February, on Delic's orders, all five combat groups were
22 deployed in Ljubizda Has. Is that right?
23 A. All five combat groups?
24 Q. That's what you stated in 2002 when you said that your memory was
25 the best.
1 A. Well, yes, I remember because there were a lot of unknown soldiers
2 there. And of course I said that all five combat groups were there.
3 Q. All right. And in preparation for this examination, you said to
4 my learned friend of the Prosecution that all five combat groups did not
5 participate at all but that part of one group took part only.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So what is correct? Were you lying to us a minute ago or are you
8 lying now?
9 A. I'm not lying, sir. I changed it because I didn't want to look
10 like a liar. I said that all five groups took part and that is why I
11 changed it. Only part of them took part in this; that's why I changed my
13 Q. Please explain to me now when it was that your memory was better,
14 five days ago or in 2002.
15 A. Well, I remember that part of the combat group was there, present
16 there. Well, I'm remembering again now. It's coming back to me, other
17 things that happened in Kosovo, but I don't want to talk about them.
18 Q. We cannot go outside the confines of the direct examination, so
19 please focus on what I am asking you about. If I tell you that, according
20 to all military and combat documents, on the 28th of February, 1999, there
21 was no action whatsoever in Ljubizda Has, what would you say to that?
22 A. Not the 28th, the day before that. I know that on the 28th I got
23 very sick and that is why I remember that day.
24 Q. You got very sick and you went into action?
25 A. Exactly on the 28th of February, on that day I caught a cold and I
1 ended up in hospital for five days, and that is why I remember that day.
2 Q. You were in hospital for five days?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And your claim is that it was the 28th of February -- sorry, just
5 hang on for a second. Let it be the 26th of February. You are saying
6 that it was in the second half of February, this action, and that you
7 ended up in hospital. Is that what you are saying?
8 A. Yes, yes, as far as I can remember the dates. I remember the 28th
9 of February because we were in action. We had been in action before that.
10 Q. Was it maybe December 1998, or January?
11 A. I think it was the 28th of February. I think, I think.
12 Q. Great. Yesterday my learned friend Mr. Ackerman asked you about
13 the action in Jeskovo and you said that it was about two weeks after this
14 particular action. You asserted that you had only seen seven killed
15 civilians; you even said that in the additional information you provided.
16 In the main statement it says that you saw seven corpses, seven bodies,
17 and in the addendum you said that you saw seven civilians. Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Yes. Yesterday Mr. Ackerman presented to you and read out to
20 you --
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And for the transcript, I would like
22 to say, and perhaps my colleague yesterday didn't know what the number was
23 of our exhibit, so it was the OSCE report, 5D112.
24 Your Honours, I have two other reports as well. They are in
25 English, and I can read to the witness very brief excerpts, to the
1 witness. Please tell me, for the Trial Chamber, should I put this on
2 e-court? All three documents have D numbers of our Defence, so could you
3 please tell me whether the Trial Chamber would like to see it on e-court.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have these
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the easy way is -- well, do the interpreters
7 have access to e-court? Possibly not.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we do. Yes, we do, but we need to have it
9 on e-court.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's have it on e-court, then, please.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday Mr. Ackerman
12 read this out. It is 5D112. It is paragraph 4, speaking of the security
13 situation. I think it's on page 3. So it is section 4, rather --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: And why do you need to read it again? Do you have
15 a --
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, no -- no, Your Honour. I just
17 wanted -- because yesterday it was not in the system. I just wanted to
18 mark that it is that particular exhibit, 5D112, where the Prizren centre
19 of the OSCE was commenting that the KLA was in Jeskovo, and Jeskovo had
20 before that been an abandoned village for a week.
21 So now could we show 5D113 on e-court for the interpreters as well
22 because it is in English.
23 Q. So now you confirm that you had seen civilians. The KVM report of
24 the 12th of March, 1999 - that is 5D113 - on page 2, says the following:
25 "C/A20A" --
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could you just lower the text a bit.
2 Mr. Hoca Zagradska, Jeskovo. Right. Here it is.
3 Q. "C/S20A and 20B accompanied Colonel Petrovic and the Milicija into
4 Jeskovo whilst they carried out an investigation into yesterday's VJ
5 operation in the village. Seven KLA bodies were found to the north and on
6 the outskirts of the village. All were dressed in black overalls, KLA
7 uniform, and had apparently died from small-arms fire. In the vicinity of
8 each body was an AK series weapon."
9 And in the last one:
10 "In a house there was a 57-millimetre mortar set up with six
11 primed mortar rounds nearby. In an adjacent storeroom there were more
12 boxed mortar rounds. The mortar was slightly rusty, but it was likely to
13 have been fired recently."
14 So that is 5D113 and it is a report dated the 13th. Another
15 report of the OSCE dated the 13th says:
16 "The teams registered and examined the seven bodies of persons who
17 had been dressed in KLA uniforms, obviously killed during the VJ/MUP
18 operation in Jeskovo."
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. So 5D --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, what's your question?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So you have an impartial OSCE commission that was there in the
23 village of Jeskovo in the action that you referred to. They saw seven
24 bodies and you insist now that they were in civilian clothing. And they
25 submitted a report that these were KLA soldiers with weapons, that mortars
1 were found. What do you say to that?
2 A. Why didn't the army let the OSCE enter right away? But they
3 waited a bit.
4 Q. You're not the one asking questions here.
5 A. Well, that's my answer. The OSCE wasn't able to see it right
6 away. The bodies may have been put in different clothes in the meantime.
7 Q. In different clothes?
8 A. Well, in an operation before that, when I mentioned the 28th of
9 February, we forebade --
10 Q. But this report states that the village had been abandoned for
11 seven days and that it was only the KLA that were there.
12 A. Perhaps the KLA were there, but I saw a dead male in civilian
13 clothes, in pants and a shirt. If that's a uniform --
14 Q. So you remember the pants and the shirt and their colour seven
15 years later?
16 A. Yes. His arms were spread out, dead. One of them was next to the
17 river. Half of his body was immersed into the water and the rest was on
18 dry land. I remember that full well. As I said, I remember everything
19 bad that took place there. I don't remember any good.
20 Q. Let us move on to another topic now. It concerns the operation on
21 the 24th of March in Trnje. In your statement, first you say that you
22 returned to Prizren on the 20th of March, and two days later with your
23 battalion you were deployed to a village close to Novaci. Do you know
24 what village exactly it was?
25 A. Trnje.
1 Q. What?
2 A. Trnje, I think. Those are tiny hamlets, some comprising two or
3 three houses. Novake, I don't know.
4 Q. Therefore, on the 20th of March you were deployed to Trnje.
5 A. No. On the 24th of March we left the barracks. We were not
6 deployed anywhere. It is possible that there was a translation error.
7 Q. A translation error. Please wait for me to read it out to you.
8 Therefore, this is incorrect: "The 24th of March I returned to Prizren,
9 and two days later I was deployed with my battalion to a village near
10 Novake." That village is close to Orahovac. This is what you stated.
11 A. And I heard Novaci.
12 Q. I don't understand what did you --
13 A. I was told that this was the village of Novaci or Novake and I
14 wasn't much interested in it. I just heard it was called Novaci.
15 Q. You say here clearly that it was close to Orahovac, close to a
16 Serb village.
17 A. It is a Serb village, close to it. We went through that village
18 and reached the Albanian one.
19 Q. And you stayed there for how long?
20 A. Five full days.
21 Q. Five days.
22 A. On the fifth day we returned to the barracks.
23 Q. So you returned to the barracks on the 27th.
24 A. If you allow me, I will explain. On the 20th I returned to the
25 barracks. On the 24th, when the bombing began, we left the barracks. It
1 wasn't on the 20th, as stated here, but on the 24th we left the barracks
2 and went to that village. We went through Novake, or whatever the name
3 was, and we reached Trnje. There are a lot of villages with similar names
5 Q. I will read it out again. "I returned to Prizren on the 20th of
6 March, and two days later I was deployed with my battalion part of Combat
7 Unit 2 to a village near Novake. There were about 70 of us. The village
8 is close to Orahovac and next to a Serbian village."
9 A. And?
10 Q. And you say you stayed there for five days. Is that right?
11 A. It must be a mistake.
12 Q. Therefore, the statement is incorrect when it states that you were
13 in the village of Novaci close to Orahovac which is much further away from
14 the village of Trnje and you were here to testify about that incident.
15 Was this statement read out to you?
16 A. Yes, it was, but a lot of time has passed and I can't recall
18 Q. Did you have the occasion to see the statement again five days
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Please wait for me. Five days ago were you given your statement
22 to re-read it and to possibly correct if there was anything to correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you make any corrections, particularly this one?
25 A. No, I wasn't paying much attention.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness K54, let me clarify something with you.
2 What happened on the 24th of March, on the day of the bombing?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 24th of March in the evening
4 or before midnight, we left the barracks. We went towards the village of
5 Trnje. Supposedly we went through the village, as far as I can recall
6 based on what I heard, and it was called Novaci. We went through that
7 Serbian village and reached the Albanian village of Trnje. We spent a
8 full five days there.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Between returning to Prizren on the 20th of March
10 and leaving on the 24th of March, what were you doing?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between the 20th and the 24th, I was
12 in the barracks. That's when I returned from my trial.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you look, please, at your statement and would
14 you turn to --
15 Mr. Bakrac, is the part relating to Prizren on page 5?
16 MR. BAKRAC: Your Honour, I think in the English it is. I have
17 the B/C/S before me and it is the first paragraph on page 6.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: The first paragraph on page 6, if you would look at
19 that, please. And you see the paragraph begins: "On 18 March I went to
20 Nis for my military trial ..."
21 Do you see that paragraph? And you're nodding your head, but I
22 take you can see that paragraph, can you? Answer me, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you read to yourself that paragraph and the
25 next paragraph which begins with the words: "On the 24th of March ..."
1 These are not consistent with what you have just told us. They do
2 not indicate that you spent four days in the barracks until the 24th of
3 March, so which is the correct version?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain it in detail.
5 On the 18th of March, I attended the trial. I returned with a
6 convoy and it took us two days to come back on the 20th. I spent four
7 days in the barracks and did nothing. I was given no tasks. On the 24th,
8 the air-strikes began.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And then you went to the village of Novaci on the 25th?
12 A. To the village of Trnje on the 25th early in the morning.
13 Q. Let us move on. Let us move on. No need to go back to that. If
14 you are able to recall it better now.
15 A. Mr. Bakrac, I have a problem with the villages and their names. I
16 never was very familiar with the area so as to be able to remember all the
17 names of all the villages and towns. I cannot recall.
18 Q. Therefore, your recollection was the best in 2002, and as regards
19 the Trnje incident you said: "We entered the village. We split into
20 teams and moved from one house to the next. I was present" --
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, could we please move into
22 private session, Your Honour, because I am about to mention some names.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 10585-10591 redacted. Private session
22 [Closed session]
1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we're waiting for
4 the witness to enter, we have to tell you whether we still need to remain
5 in private session.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have just two more questions, a
8 minute or two, for the private session and then we can move into open
9 session and then we will conclude shortly thereafter.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: So we're opening up to private session.
11 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Please tell me this: You explained this in your statement. I'm
24 not really interested in details, but you returned on a truck with a title
25 Hygijena on it and collected the five corpses of those women. Can you
1 tell me, please, from which location you collected these five female
3 A. You mean from which place? You mean from which village?
4 Q. Yes. Where did you find them, in which area?
5 A. Well, we found two women in front of a house, a courtyard of a
6 house. The other one we found behind a house. She attempted to flee but
7 didn't manage. And then the last two we found in the area where they were
8 fleeing with that old man, in the meadow.
9 Q. That's outside of the village.
10 A. Not quite outside of the village, but there's a house and then the
11 field starting right behind the house, maybe some 50 metres from the
13 Q. Fifty metres away from the house.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. And the other ones as well?
16 A. The other ones? Well, we found the other ones in a courtyard of a
17 house, attempting to flee. As they were fleeing, they were killed.
18 Q. And you said when you went to bury these bodies that you were
19 escorted by two military trucks full of soldiers.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me, please, how is it possible, or rather, how long is that
22 distance -- is that road from Trnje to the place where you did that?
23 A. Well, it's hard for me to be quite specific. I said roughly 20 to
24 30 kilometres; that's the approximate distance. Maybe there's just 15. I
25 wasn't sure because I didn't measure it. But not more than 30.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you actually see any of the five being killed?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you see any of the five being killed?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: How many?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two women.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Bakrac.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You saw two women being killed. Did you see who killed them or
12 did you just see them fall down?
13 A. I just saw them fall down.
14 Q. So you didn't see who shot at them.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. You said 20 to 30 kilometres, and you said that there
17 were two military trucks full of soldiers following you. In the last line
18 of the last paragraph on page 7, you say that you stole the trucks for the
19 needs of the army "because we were unable to move about in military trucks
20 due to NATO air-strikes. That was the date when NATO bombing began and
21 when it was at its most intense." Which of the two is true?
22 A. Let me tell you, the first two days we didn't really pay attention
23 to whether the military trucks could move about or not. The order came
24 later, the order for the military vehicles not to move about. We had to
25 knock down a wall of a house in order to hide the trucks there. We hid
1 military trucks and we had to use the civilian ones.
2 Q. Excellent. So the first five days you were on positions, and when
3 you drove that was the seventh day, because on the sixth day you went back
4 and then on the seventh day you took this Hygijena truck.
5 A. Wait a second. On the fifth day we came back and then the sixth
6 day we spent the night, having expelled the Albanians from the house, we
7 spent the night there. And then on the sixth day we came to collect the
8 corpses. That wasn't the seventh day, that was the sixth day.
9 Q. And you said that after five days there was a ban on the use of
10 military trucks and you had to drive for 30 kilometres.
11 A. There was no ban. There was no public ban on using military
12 trucks. It's just that in the period thereafter, what happened was that
13 due to our security we were not allowed to ride around in military trucks.
14 Q. And you say here that you stole trucks for the needs of the army.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Why did you do that when there was a decree stating that civilian
17 trucks could be requisitioned for the army needs? Why did you have to
18 steal them?
19 A. We simply did it because we didn't ask anybody for permission. We
20 didn't have a key to start the truck. We had to hot-wire it, so that's
21 how I started it. I hot-wired it. I didn't have a key to start a truck.
22 If you think that the army did it in a polite way, with a key, then, you
23 know, the owner would have had to give us the key.
24 Q. You said that you hot-wired abandoned trucks.
25 A. Yes, abandoned ones, but I also remember one that was not
1 abandoned. We asked for a key and allegedly this lady couldn't find it
2 and then we broke down the lock and took the truck.
3 Q. So she wanted to give you the truck but she was unable to find the
5 A. She most likely tried to hide it because she wasn't pleased about
6 having to give us the truck, but we took it by force anyway.
7 Q. You say that upon your return to Prizren the barracks was hit and
8 you expelled Albanians from a settlement. Was it settlement or a village?
9 A. A settlement.
10 Q. A settlement. Do you know what it's called?
11 A. Petrovo Selo.
12 Q. Was there a garrison health centre there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So from this settlement of Petrovo Selo, where the garrison health
15 centre is you saw refugees going Djakovica and Suva Reka.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know that the road from Djakovica doesn't go through that
18 area at all?
19 A. Yes, but it does from the direction of Suva Reka.
20 Q. Yesterday you told us that you saw from Djakovica refugees going
21 through that village.
22 A. Yesterday I said from the direction of Suva Reka and from the
23 direction of Djakovica. I repeated that twice yesterday.
24 Q. You just confirmed to me that it's impossible to go through that
25 area coming from Djakovica because the road doesn't pass through that
2 A. I went on foot. I worked in the army as a driver, so I moved
3 about and I observed the refugees coming from the direction of Djakovica.
4 It's not that I was standing there petrified. No. I moved about for the
5 needs of the army, so I was able to see refugees in different places,
6 including this place. And yesterday I mentioned that I saw them from the
7 direction of Djakovica and from the direction of Suva Reka.
8 Q. And you said yesterday that they passed by you, by the place where
9 you had been stationed for two and a half months.
10 A. Yes, something like that, two and a half months, for as long as
11 the bombing lasted.
12 Q. And now you're telling us that you actually moved about.
13 A. Yes, I had to move about. I had to go take my car there. I had
14 to go to this company called Hygijena to get the truck. I was sent there
15 so I had to move about. I had to be on the move. And naturally I used my
16 eyes, I used them, and I observed the refugees moving. I wasn't blind.
17 Q. All right. What about other soldiers from your unit? They were
18 unable to see that?
19 A. Yes, drivers.
20 Q. Just drivers?
21 A. Well, the others as well.
22 Q. How could they?
23 A. Because we had a gate there. We had a gate there with a ramp, and
24 those who manned it were able to see that. The military mess was there
25 and they could see it, whoever was there. And the soldiers would go to do
1 some shopping and they would be able -- they were able to see the
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
4 further questions.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Mr. Visnjic.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. K54.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Mr. K54, we will now go back to 1998. Is it true that you don't
12 know the name of a single commander of any of the combat groups that you
14 A. It's not true that I don't know. It's just that I can't remember.
15 I know that once there was this - I can't remember now -- actually, I
16 can't tell you now, because we're not in closed session.
17 Q. Is it true that you don't even know the name of your own
19 A. Maybe it's true that I don't know, but that's because they changed
20 a lot. They worked in shifts.
21 Q. Is it true that you don't know the name of a soldier who told you
22 that he heard Delic cleanse the village of terrorists. I'm referring now
23 to the first village as you call it, Rogovo?
24 A. I knew it but I forgot.
25 Q. Thank you. When your combat group - I'm now referring to the road
1 that you took from Djakovica I guess to Klina - when your combat group
2 captured two Albanians in a cornfield. Do you remember that part of your
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who told you -- or rather, do you remember who told you what they
7 A. There was a soldier from an infantry unit.
8 Q. You don't know his name?
9 A. I don't.
10 Q. Thank you. In your evidence today or based on your evidence
11 today, I concluded that during your stay in Kosovo in July of 2002 you
12 went there with an OTP investigator; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. By the way, let me ask you, do you travel to Kosovo because of
15 your work?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Except for this trip in 2002, you never visited Kosovo from 1999?
18 A. I didn't dare.
19 Q. Thank you. When you were there with an investigator, when you
20 visited on that occasion, did you show the investigator the location where
21 these two Albanians were found, and I guess pursuant to your statement
22 also killed?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Did he make any notes on that occasion, take pictures or make
1 A. Not concerning the Albanians but concerning the houses, yes.
2 Q. Is it true then that you took him to the house which, according to
3 your statement, General Delic had ordered that it be targeted?
4 A. No, but I showed it to him.
5 Q. Did he make any photographs on that occasion, sketches, or tape
6 this on camera?
7 A. As far as I can remember, he did take one picture.
8 Q. In your discussions with the OTP, were you ever shown those
9 photographs afterwards?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Who identified the location and its name, the location where this
12 house is located, was it you or the investigator?
13 A. The investigator.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you visit the village of Damjane with the same
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you go to the village of Rogovo with the same investigator?
18 A. We passed by. We passed by the village.
19 Q. So when I look at your statement of the -- I can't find the date.
20 In any case, from July 2002 and when Damjane is mentioned in the
21 statement, this was inserted by the investigator. Am I correct?
22 A. Could you repeat the question.
23 Q. Is it as follows: I will read out that part of the statement.
24 "On Monday the 8th of July I toured the area of Kosovo which I
25 had previously described in my statement. The purpose of it was to
1 identify the precise locations."
2 On page 2, paragraph 2 of your principal statement it
3 says: "Damjane, the municipality of Djakovica," and so on and so forth?
4 A. He may have written that down. In any case, from a distance I
5 tried to show him where we were.
6 Q. From a distance you did that concerning the village of Rogovo. Am
7 I correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On that occasion was a sketch made or any footage made of the
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. When you went there with the investigator did you also
13 go to the village of Rakovina?
14 A. We did.
15 Q. Did you show to him on that occasion some houses or other things
16 mentioned in your statement?
17 A. As far as I can recall, I did show him some things.
18 Q. Did you go to the village of Jeskovo with the investigators?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you go with them to the village of Trnje?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Whilst in the village of Trnje, did you show the investigator the
23 spot where you were?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. On that occasion, did he make a sketch, take photographs, or any
2 A. He took some photographs, but I cannot recall exactly.
3 Q. In your contacts with the Prosecutor's office, were such
4 photographs or sketches or video footage ever shown to you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. While you were in the village of Trnje with the investigator, did
7 you indicate the location at which sergeant Kozlina allegedly killed the
8 group of Albanian civilians?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It's a house; am I correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. On that occasion did he take any photographs?
13 A. I cannot recall. We dared not go inside.
14 Q. Were you ever shown any such photographs?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When, or rather, did you go to Prizren with the investigator?
17 A. No -- yes, yes.
18 Q. Did you indicate the house of that Albanian who had allegedly been
19 killed in the outskirts of Prizren?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did he ask you to do that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you. He to go back to a detail found in your statement, and
24 we are now going back to 1998, whereby you describe the operation carried
25 out by your unit on the road leading towards Rakovina. In your statement
1 you say that the operation took three days. Am I correct?
2 A. More or less, if I can remember it.
3 Q. If I reminded you that you said for the transcript that you spent
4 at least two nights in the field on that road, would I be correct?
5 A. I think so.
6 Q. Am I right in saying that after an additional check you said that
7 on the 3rd you were already at your house?
8 A. No. On the 3rd I set out from the barracks to go home.
9 Q. Do you know what time of day it was?
10 A. I waited for a convoy. I don't know exactly, but I waited most of
11 the day.
12 Q. You waited for a convoy?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were in the barracks waiting for a convoy?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And before that you explained to us that it took you quite a long
17 time to go back to the barracks because of the tank that had broken down?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If I understood correctly, you were almost half a day and one
20 entire night on the road with that tank?
21 A. Yes. It was around 3.00 in the morning, 3.00 or 4.00 a.m. When we
22 reached Prizren.
23 Q. And how long did you wait for the rest of the convoy to come back
24 to the barracks?
25 A. We didn't wait. We went together in a line.
1 Q. Let us assume then -- let's deal with this this way. You reached
2 the barracks at 3.00 or 4.00 a.m. Am I correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When did you leave the barracks to go home?
5 A. I think it was the next day -- well, it was a long time ago. I
6 don't know whether it was that day or the next day.
7 Q. Let's try to deal with it this way. Do you remember when, on what
8 day, you reached your house?
9 A. I don't remember. It was on the same day. I came home the same
11 Q. It could be either the 3rd or the 4th.
12 A. Yes. I said the 3rd or the 4th. I cannot remember exactly. It
13 was a long time ago. I think it was the 3rd.
14 Q. If I told you that the operation concerning Rakovina began on the
15 2nd, at 6.00 a.m., would that tally with what you remember?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How come you then say you spent two days in the field?
18 A. But we got there before that.
19 Q. How did you find the infantry there, who had spent two days in the
20 woods before that?
21 A. That happened on the first day when we arrived. We were there for
22 two days. We spent one night there and then the next night we reached the
23 barracks. I count that as two days and two nights for the operation.
24 Q. Let us move on to something else, then. You said you didn't know
25 that General Delic testified before this Tribunal.
1 A. I know he testified, but I didn't listen to his testimony. But I
2 heard that he was here.
3 Q. Very well. When you came here, when you were being proofed for
4 this testimony, were you shown parts of General Delic's statement
5 concerning your testimony?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No? And you were not shown or told that General Delic identified
8 a different house that was fired at from the tank.
9 A. I suppose he did so as to try and protect Milosevic. Whatever he
10 said was incorrect.
11 Q. Did you know that there is a chicken farm in the village of Beci?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Were you shown maps showing the position of your unit and your
14 position during the operation in Jeskovo and the one pertaining to
16 A. What do you mean, if I was shown?
17 Q. Did the OTP show you certain maps or military maps indicating unit
19 A. I can't recall.
20 Q. Thank you. In your statement you say you left Kosovo on the 6th
21 of June. Am I correct?
22 A. More or less, six days before the withdrawal.
23 Q. After that, did you go back to serve the rest of your military
25 A. I did.
1 Q. That's not in your statement.
2 A. I wasn't asked about that.
3 Q. Can you tell me, what was the remainder of your military term?
4 A. Around ten days or so.
5 Q. How did it happen that you went home on the 6th?
6 A. Home?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Well, I got a weekend off from the army. Everyone had one before
9 that, and I insisted that I be given one as a reward. And it was a long
10 weekend; it lasted for seven days.
11 Q. Were you supposed to go back to your unit after that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you?
14 A. I did.
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did you know that there was a testimony before this Tribunal, and
23 this is the Milosevic transcript, page 42238, in which it was said --
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I believe we
25 should move into private session.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
2 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was my last
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness K54.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. The good news is that I'm the last person to put questions to you,
9 but I do have a number of them. I would kindly ask you to focus on the
10 part of your statement which speaks about the police and the PJP, since
11 that particular area is of the most interest to me. Do you have your
12 statement before you?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Please go to page 4, paragraph 2. In the English it is page 3,
15 paragraph 6.
16 A. I don't have the numbers here.
17 Q. Just count from the top of the page, page 4, paragraph 2, the
18 second paragraph. What is mentioned there is the area of Djakovica, and
19 you say:
20 "We went to another village which was about 3 to 5 kilometres
21 away. That village was empty of any civilians. There was a PJP unit from
22 Djakovica there and some police in normal plain blue uniforms."
23 The policemen in blue uniforms, did they participate in the
25 A. They did.
1 Q. You say: "During that night a firefight started between the PJP
2 and someone in the force."
3 A. Yes, but not during that night. It was just getting dark, just
4 before it got dark.
5 Q. Thank you for that explanation.
6 "I could not see who was firing in our direction, but we assumed
7 that it was the KLA terrorists."
8 Then you mention the policeman who was shot and fell down. You
9 say you don't know whether he was dead. And in the next paragraph you
10 explain that on the third day infantry came out of the forest and that you
11 were ordered to give them water, and that they said they had covered only
12 3 to 5 kilometres. The reason for that, was it because they encountered
13 KLA resistance?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Very well.
16 A. There may have been some.
17 Q. You say they returned just before it got dark that evening and
18 that you were ordered to line up and head back for the barracks in
19 Prizren. The PJP remained behind. "The following day I went home on
21 In the two paragraphs you talk about combat, about fighting
22 against the KLA.
23 A. Well, maybe about one fight.
24 Q. In your words, the villagers had left the villages and they were
25 not there.
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Therefore, there were no executions during that fighting, since
3 there were no civilians?
4 A. There were no executions, but we set the houses on fire.
5 Q. But you don't know whether there had been any fighting there prior
6 to your arrival there?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know which PJP units participated in those
9 actions at the time?
10 A. No, I just know their uniforms.
11 Q. When your guys returned from the field, you went to the barracks
12 in Prizren; therefore, you don't know what the PJP were involved in at
13 that location after the operation. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Could you please look at page 5 now, the fifth paragraph, and in
16 the English version it's page 5, the first paragraph. My colleagues have
17 already asked you about this, about the village of Jeskovo, and what was
18 put to you was that a report was written about this incident of the KVM,
19 that is to say the OSCE monitoring mission. You describe a man who went
20 out of the cellar with his hands up, saying: "I surrender, I surrender."
21 You say that you were present there and you describe what happened by
22 saying that two members of the PJP grabbed this man, one of them pulled
23 out a knife and cut off both the ears of the man that had surrendered.
24 And then, in your words, they killed him.
25 A. Well, I wasn't right there directly to see that they cut off his
1 ears, and I didn't see -- I wasn't there when they just grabbed him. But
2 I was so nearby that one could establish straight away what it was that
3 had happened to him. Other soldiers saw this, so they added on to what I
4 had said.
5 Q. So you compiled a story that you heard from others in relation to
6 this incident?
7 A. Yes, and I saw that the man didn't have any ears and that he had
8 been killed. Perhaps two, three minutes, let's say five minutes in terms
9 of time.
10 Q. Before you saw him?
11 A. Yes. He got out of the cellar.
12 Q. According to the documentation we have, we established that what
13 you spoke of occurred on the 11th of March, 1999, around 1430 hours. I'm
14 referring to the action that was observed by the verification mission.
15 First of all, at that moment did you know that the Kosovo Verification
16 Mission had approved of this operation and supervised it?
17 A. Well, I am not aware of that, but they certainly didn't supervise
19 Q. Not in a single document that was compiled during and after this
20 operation has it been documented that any of the persons killed did not
21 have any ears. Can we agree on that, and you just sounded rather
22 uncertain yourself about that?
23 A. Well, I don't know. I just saw this man without any ears. Well,
24 as he fell, I'm not sure about the other ear but I saw that he certainly
25 didn't have one ear.
1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now I would like us to move on to the
2 fourth paragraph on page 5. It's the same one, isn't it, it's the same
3 paragraph in the English text, too. You say: "I personally saw seven
4 bodies, but it made me sick and I did not want to see any others. I later
5 heard that the PJP returned the next day to clear up the bodies and they
6 confirmed that there were 30 terrorists killed during that attack."
7 In your view, is it the task of the PJP to collect bodies?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many people got killed on the KLA side
10 in this fighting?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. To who was it that the PJP confirmed that there were
13 30 terrorists killed?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. You don't say who -- you don't know who the -- who said so from
16 the PJP?
17 A. Well, I heard about it in the barracks allegedly, that there were
18 30 of them, that's what I heard.
19 Q. Very well. Thank you. In your statement dated the 16th of July,
20 2002, you talk about documents being taken away. Did you ever take
21 anybody's personal documents away from them?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did anyone ever order you to take documents away from people?
24 A. No.
25 Q. In the transcript yesterday on page 10512, line 3, you say that a
1 soldier told you that documents were being taken away at the Vrmice border
2 crossing, that's what it says here?
3 A. Vrbnica.
4 Q. Yes. That's what I thought, that it was Vrbnica? Do you know the
5 name of the soldier who told you that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did that soldier claim that he was at the border crossing as a
9 A. No.
10 Q. Just one more question and we will be done. Yesterday -- well,
11 sometimes it happens due to interpretation as well, the transcript said
12 that you were receiving warnings or threats from Serbian policemen. Is it
13 Serbian policemen or Montenegrin policemen?
14 A. Montenegrin.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness K54. No further questions for you.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
17 Ms. Moeller.
18 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller:
20 Q. Sir, just a couple of questions. How old were you in 1998,
22 A. I was born in 1976, so 20 I think.
23 Q. And before you started your training, your short military
24 training, did you know anything about the structure of the VJ, the
25 different units, what was a brigade, a battalion, a combat group,
1 whatever? Did you know anything about that?
2 A. No. I just knew the names sort of brigade, battalion, company.
3 As for the meaning, I didn't know very much.
4 Q. And during these six weeks of training, did you receive any
5 information, more detailed information on all these things, the structure
6 of the VJ, all the details, what was what?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No. Your Honour, six weeks is the
10 information that we were given here, six weeks of training. I don't think
11 that's what the witness said in his examination-in-chief or in the
12 re-direct. Two and a half months is ten weeks. I really don't know why
13 the witness is being led this way in re-direct. Another leading question
14 was when it was said "during your training." During this fast-track
15 training, short military training. I don't think that that is the proper
16 way to examine a witness.
17 MS. MOELLER: I apologise, Your Honours. I misspoke. I meant ten
18 weeks or two and a half months. I did not have my math right here.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 MS. MOELLER: But I think the question was answered -- no,
21 actually, it wasn't. I'm sorry. So I repeat it.
22 Q. During the two and a half months of military training before you
23 were sent into Kosovo, did you receive any information on -- detailed
24 information on how the VJ was structured?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Now I would like to go back to the village of Jeskovo. My learned
2 colleagues Mr. Ackerman yesterday, Mr. Bakrac, and Mr. Lukic today all
3 referred to the OSCE being present during this time in this area. Now,
4 did you see the OSCE somewhere in or around Jeskovo during this time?
5 MR. LUKIC: Asked and answered before.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not following that, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: I asked the witness and he explicitly said that he
8 never saw any OSCE representatives in the area.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And you don't think that that's a matter that the
10 Prosecution would be entitled to explore in re-examination? If you had
11 asked it before and you were asking it again, the point you are making
12 would apply, but it doesn't apply when someone may be considering a
13 challenge. Let's wait and see where this goes.
14 Ms. Moeller.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
17 Q. Witness, did you see anything of -- did you see the OSCE in or
18 around Jeskovo during this time?
19 A. Yes. When we returned, just one car, near Prizren.
20 Q. And that very day that the operation was going on, did you see any
21 OSCE cars or representatives in the very village?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. My learned colleague Mr. Bakrac referred to an exhibit
24 5D112 and he referred to this report, referring to the OSCE patrols being
25 denied access to the area at that time. Do you know anything about that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. "The OSCE report also states that verifiers observed a
3 heavy bombardment of Jeskovo and reported buildings burning."
4 Would you share this assessment of the situation in the village?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So was there any bombardment of the village that you saw yourself
7 at all?
8 A. Yes, there was bombardment.
9 Q. Okay. So which part of this assessment do you not share, then?
10 A. The assessment that I did not notice the OSCE there. How could
11 they write that statement, that allegedly they were there? In that
12 statement that's what they say, but they were not there. But that really
13 means that they weren't there.
14 Q. Okay, but I asked you about if you would disagree with the
15 statement that a heavy bombardment of Jeskovo took place on that day and
16 that houses were burned.
17 A. Yes, I agree with that, that houses were burned, that there was
18 bombardment. I agree with that.
19 Q. Okay. Now, going back to the seven bodies that you testified you
20 saw in civilian clothes - it was also raised by Mr. Bakrac and some other
21 Defence counsel - do you recall where you saw -- where in the village, in
22 or around the village, you saw these seven bodies?
23 A. Around the village. One I saw in the village, and the others
24 around the village, on some clearings, meadows, by the river.
25 Q. Okay. Now, when asked about the torching of the house with the
1 towel, by Mr. Bakrac I think, you testified that you also torched a bus
2 and a tractor. Why did you torch these two vehicles?
3 A. Well, I was ordered to torch them. Why? I don't know. Quite
4 simply, to have it destroyed.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MS. MOELLER: Can we shortly go into private session for the name,
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
9 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 MS. MOELLER:
24 Q. Now, there's one last aspect I need to clarify with you. I'm
25 still not clear about one part of your statement, which you were already
1 cross-examined about, and that is on page 6, paragraph 1, of the B/C/S
2 version. If you could look at that again. In the English version, it is
3 page 5, the second paragraph. It's this reference to the village near
4 Novake. When did you actually go to Novake?
5 A. On military trucks.
6 Q. Sorry, I think we misunderstood each other. "When" was the
8 A. Oh, when. On the 25th, early in the morning. The 25th of March,
9 when the bombing started, we were going through Novake.
10 Q. And how long did you say in Novake?
11 A. Briefly. We just passed through.
12 Q. Okay. And from there on you went, then, where?
13 A. To the village of Trnje.
14 Q. Okay. And before you went to Novake you stayed where, again?
15 A. First in the barracks and then we left the barracks because of the
16 forthcoming bombing. Below the barracks there was a military outpatient
17 clinic. We spent that night there, and early in the morning we went
18 towards the villages.
19 Q. And you passed through Novake while going on your way, then, down
20 to Trnje. Is that a correct statement?
21 A. Yes, it is correct.
22 Q. Okay. Now I understand.
23 MS. MOELLER: I think that completes my questions, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I have a very small question to ask. May I ask?
4 A. Go ahead.
5 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Now, you said you saw six bodies. Later we
6 learned that you saw five of them being killed in your -- while you were
7 viewing it. And then later it came that you saw two of the women being
8 killed in your presence and while you could view it. But then again it
9 transpires from your statement that at the time somebody was shooting at
10 them, that moment you didn't see; however, the thing happened in your
11 presence. Did you spot the killers then, who could those be, because it
12 all happened in seconds? Thanks a lot.
13 A. I couldn't see the people who killed those persons. I could see
14 those people fall down and I was taken aback. Therefore, I paid no heed
15 to the persons who killed them.
16 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Were you not curious who could be around? Did you
17 not see even a shadow? Did you not see anybody close by? Did you not
18 like to even look at somebody running away or -- I mean at that moment?
19 A. There were our soldiers around. Even had I tried to look, I would
20 have been -- would not have been able to understand or see who killed them
21 exactly. The soldiers were there, but I didn't see which one or who
22 killed them.
23 JUDGE CHOWHAN: When somebody is shooting and you see somebody
24 falling, then you also see somebody in motion with a barrel. I mean, it
25 doesn't happen just something coming out of a man's body hitting somebody
1 else. Did you see any sort of movement? Did you suspect anybody? Are
2 you not trying to tell us who those men may have been, even you
4 A. No, I am not trying to avoid telling you, rather I cannot be
5 certain who it was. I know it must have been one of the soldiers. I saw
6 soldiers there, but I don't know who did it. But at that moment you don't
7 think that way. You don't try to look for the killer. You recognise the
8 fact that someone is being killed and you try to take cover.
9 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if you could clarify for me which incident
11 you're talking about so that I don't remain uncertain about this.
12 A. For example, when I saw those two women running across the fields
13 and there was an elderly man with them, at that moment I saw them being
14 killed by a soldier or soldiers, since there was several. I saw those
15 people fall to the ground. They were still alive and in pain. I didn't
16 pay much attention to who fired at them exactly, which soldier.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, it was my understanding that you had seen two
18 women killed. Did you also see the elderly man shot or did he escape?
19 A. No, he was killed. He was the first one to get killed.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: And do I correctly recollect your evidence as being
21 that these two women were two of the five women that you took to bury?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE BONOMY: K54, that completes your evidence. Thank you very
1 much for coming to the Tribunal to give evidence, and you're now free to
2 leave. But just stay where you are for a moment while we go into closed
3 session to enable you to leave the courtroom and protect your identity.
4 [Closed session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Your next witness, Ms. Moeller.
13 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, before Mr. Hannis will address you with
14 regard to the scheduling, I would like to make an oral application. You
15 invited us yesterday to reconsider filing a motion for reconsideration
16 regarding your decision of the evidence of Witness K82. And we are
17 herewith moving to ask you to reconsider your oral decision of 19th
18 September and the written decision of 3 October 2006 regarding the
19 evidence by Witness K86.
20 We submit that according to the Appeals Chamber ruling, a Trial
21 Chamber may always reconsider a decision and we will ask you in more
22 detail in our written submission, which we will file this afternoon. This
23 oral application is just for you to be on immediate notice, as you
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. I think your second reference was
1 actually also to K82.
2 Mr. Visnjic.
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave I wanted
4 to say something concerning the statement of the earlier witness, K54,
5 which may have influenced your decision concerning your decision about
6 K86 -- sorry, K82, having in mind that that issue is still open, that is
7 that both statements may be taken into account.
8 First of all, out of today's testimony I concluded that either
9 there was a breach on the part of the OTP concerning their obligation to
10 disclose certain material or there were such major omissions which made it
11 unable for us to conduct our investigations. I'll try to be brief.
12 In the practice so far, we received different material from the
13 OTP, but even with the Albanian witnesses who were victims an effort was
14 made to forward at least sketches or photographs or any other material in
15 addition to the witness concerning a possible testimony. Concerning this
16 witness that -- who testified for two days, the situation was even more
17 drastic. He was there with a professional from the Prosecutor's team, and
18 on that occasion, without delving into the reasons, no effort was made so
19 as to enable us to conduct a proper and adequate investigation. In
20 certain cases, as far as I could understand from the witness's statement,
21 identification was made from the road, the road being 5 to 6 kilometres
22 away from certain locations referred to in the statement, primarily
23 Damjane and potentially Rogovo.
24 Then identification was made impossible for us of any key location
25 or locations from the key points of the statement, and we couldn't
1 identify the victims even on those occasions when the witness would have
2 been able to pin-point the location of the crime or the place where the
3 bodies could be found.
4 On top of that, we are now in a situation in addition to the late
5 disclosure of the statement and the witnesses being scheduled, we are in a
6 situation to have witnesses in a virtual situation stating something and
7 that same witness is unable to identify locations. We cannot obtain any
8 material and we cannot get the witnesses here who told him things about
9 certain crimes who were there with him at the time, apart from several
10 alleged perpetrators he named.
11 If this is to be the standard for this witness and for other
12 witnesses, because I believe they will try to do the same thing, we will
13 actually have two different statements without any factual or material
14 basis. This will effectively unable us to run our checks on whatever
15 apart from the perpetrators named by the OTP. And then again we would get
16 additional unverified statements and we can go cycle by cycle that way.
17 And my learned friend Mr. Bakrac tells me that I should mention that these
18 incidents were not made part of the indictment and we did not focus our
19 investigations on those incidents. I thank you.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: These are all points that go to the weight of the
21 evidence and they are all points that you can -- yes, Ms. Moeller.
22 MS. MOELLER: May I just respond to some of the allegations, Your
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Why?
25 MS. MOELLER: Because --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you not content -- I mean why --
2 MS. MOELLER: Just to the allegation --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, just sit down. Sit down, please.
4 MS. MOELLER: Okay.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: If I want to hear from you, I'll invite you to
7 Mr. Visnjic, these are all points that go to the weight that would
8 be attributable to evidence in due course. What you failed to do - and
9 this is what I want to hear a submission about - is where the breach of
10 the rule is.
11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give me one moment.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Visnjic.
15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's one thing I'm
16 certain of. In the statement given in June 2002, the witness went to the
17 locations with an investigator. Now we heard from the witness that on
18 that occasion certain photographs were taken. We haven't received any of
19 those, and the witness stated that he showed the specific locations to the
20 investigators, the locations where some things took place or the locations
21 where he was.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Most of the questions on that line led to answers
23 which indicated that no photographs were taken. Identify for me the
24 transcript pages and lines where he said otherwise.
25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 53; 22, 23, and 24,
1 concerning two locations, Meca or Rakovina and Trnje.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, where's the other one? Meca.
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That was probably the first
4 question. Page 52; 2, 3, and 4.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, why can't you go to the Prosecution and ask
6 for these?
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Because I've only found out about it
8 today. Do you think I should do it today?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Why not?
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I will.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And if you establish a breach, if this turns out to
12 be accurate, you can address it then. But at the moment the witness
13 appears to be fairly vague except in relation to one photograph.
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour ...
15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Visnjic.
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I will do so, but I wanted to state
18 my position. In my view, those photographs should have come together with
19 the statement from 2002, and they were supposed to have been disclosed at
20 the same time.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Anyway, that's the extent of your submission, that
22 there are these photographs apparently which you say have not been
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Or perhaps they should have
25 been submitted to us in accordance with Rule 68. I still don't know
1 what's on them.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
3 Ms. Moeller, can you address that, please.
4 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, the investigator who went to the field
6 with the witness in 2002 is still in house, and I haven't seen such
7 photographs. We're inquiring and we will get back to the Defence and you
8 about that as soon as I have a final response from him. We already
9 initiated it. But I haven't seen any of these photographs in the system
10 for the witness.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 MS. MOELLER: Neither have I seen any sketches or anything else.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: How quickly can this be checked?
15 MS. MOELLER: Well, I hope in the course of today, Your Honours.
16 We already sent an e-mail to the investigator.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: And can you make sure that the witness stays just
18 in case something turns up?
19 MS. MOELLER: Yes, Your Honour, we will make sure.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: So that means that you should really report to the
21 Trial Chamber later today what the outcome of this is.
22 MS. MOELLER: We will do so, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now Mr. Hannis.
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we don't have another witness that's
25 available to put on today. Witness K14 was our next scheduled witness.
1 Over the weekend I think we learned that she was having weather-related
2 travel difficulties. She's arriving today. We have the witness
3 Ambassador Petritsch who is being proofed today and we now will put him on
4 tomorrow and do K14 after him, followed by Barayabar. We think those
5 three, then, will fill up the rest of the week.
6 I know I had an e-mail from your legal officer about addressing
7 the issue regarding Mr. Coo tomorrow. I didn't know if you wanted to do
8 that before Ambassador Petritsch starts or after, or what time you propose
9 to address that. I think Mr. O'Sullivan was going to be the primary
10 speaker for the Defence in that connection. I don't see him here now.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: There were a number of other items mentioned in an
12 e-mail that you sent, Mr. Hannis, but none of them seem to merit taking up
13 court time.
14 MR. HANNIS: Not at this time, Your Honour. I think those are
15 matters for us to work together with the Defence on.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
17 Mr. Zecevic, is there no question of us using the final session
18 today to deal with Coo?
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honour, we were put on notice that it
20 would happen only tomorrow, the submissions. Mr. O'Sullivan will be
21 available tomorrow in the court for the submissions. And I told -- as I
22 informed the Trial Chamber previously, he is in -- that it is his task.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it now doesn't look as though it will be
24 tomorrow. It's going to have to be at a later stage if the time is
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Whatever pleases the Court.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] By your leave, I'm not sure -- I
5 think that -- well, if my understanding was correct, perhaps the witness
6 who testified just now, perhaps he could be re-called tomorrow. Perhaps
7 his attention should be drawn to the fact that he is still under oath and
8 that he should not contact anyone about any matters related to this case,
9 if possible, if he hasn't left the building by now.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we've already heard that he won't be leaving,
11 and there's no need for these matters to be drawn to his attention because
12 the only issue relates to photographs and not to his evidence in general.
13 Ms. Moeller.
14 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, just because we are dealing with this
15 issue, just now we received the e-mail from the investigator Mr. Jonathan
16 Sutch, who went on this mission when the addendum statement was taken, and
17 he says that no photographs were taken when he went with him on this
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, anything to say on that?
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I've really nothing
21 to say. Now I have to give this some profound thought as to what I'm
22 going to do next. But at any rate, I thank the OTP for their prompt
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I think in the circumstances the witness can now be
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I'm trying to fill
4 up our time today, sort of.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you certainly get the prize for that today.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I sincerely hope so.
7 Your Honour, I think that since we managed to check this so
8 quickly with the photographs, and before the witness leaves, there is one
9 very important thing that remains unclear to me: My learned friend
10 Mr. Visnjic asked him whether the investigator asked him to indicate the
11 location to him where these five women were buried and his answer was no.
12 In his previous testimony he said that -- rather, in the additional
13 information, I'm not sure now. I'm a bit out of focus after my
14 cross-examination. But we were previously told that the investigator told
15 him that there was no need to show anything. Now, what is true? Did the
16 investigators of the Tribunal try to exhume the grave where these bodies
17 are? And Mr. Stamp said publicly before this Court that he would not
18 charge the accused with regard to that particular incident.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I thought the position had been made clear
20 yesterday that the witness did himself mark the grave but that no
21 investigation was carried out to exhume the bodies or even, indeed, to
22 find the grave. And I don't think he said otherwise.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I will
24 find it in the additional examination, or perhaps my colleague
25 Ms. Moeller, who is more familiar with this. It does say that in response
1 to the question -- oh, yes, yes, I'll tell you now. I've just
2 remembered. In response to Judge Kwon's question, in the last line of his
3 testimony, on the last page of his testimony, as to whether he pointed out
4 the place where it was that he buried the corpses, he answered that he had
5 been told that there was no need for that; that they knew. And in the
6 statement he just said that he threw away part of the engine --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] -- that he marked it by throwing part
9 of the engine and he said that probably it went rusty by now. And he did
10 not talk about that anywhere else except in the statement. 8324 is the
12 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got it and you haven't -- we've had your
13 questions, the questions you want to ask. What else do you want to do?
14 You've had your opportunity, surely, to deal with it.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to find out from the OTP
16 investigator what it is that is true, whether he really told this witness
17 that they knew already. Did they go to the location? Did they try to
18 find the two bodies? Or did they perhaps try to find the bodies and did
19 not manage to find them? We haven't got any information.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: But you can call the investigator if you wish in
21 your Defence case if you want to contradict that statement. That's
22 something for you to do when you're building your own defence.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I thought that
24 that was the obligation of the Prosecutor, to prove the existence --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not understanding you, Mr. Bakrac. You've
1 known about this all through the evidence of the witness. What is it
2 you're saying has changed that leads to you now asking to do something
3 unusual? Are you saying you just made a mistake in not asking him, or
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honour. I think that
6 there is a difference between the answer that he gave to Mr. Visnjic and
7 the answer that he gave to Mr. Kwon. Mr. Visnjic asked him, "Did you" --
8 rather, "Did the investigator ask you to take him to the place where the
9 bodies were buried?" and he said no. And in this transcript, in my view,
10 it's quite different.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: He said no. It's just the same. He gave an
12 explanation in the transcript and that wasn't challenged by Mr. Visnjic.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what he said, that he --
14 in the transcript in the previous trial. He said no because he already
15 knew. That's what it says.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but that didn't come out after you had
17 cross-examined; that was something you knew about before you
18 cross-examined. And there's no justification for an exceptional course
19 here. All Mr. Visnjic got was confirmation of that answer without the
20 explanation. And if you want to deal with it through the investigator and
21 to lead him as a witness, that's a matter for you.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic, do you know how long Mr. O'Sullivan's
24 submissions are likely to take?
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is he on the end of an e-mail?
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I can send an e-mail to him, but it will
3 probably take a couple of minutes to --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, yeah, but could you try to give us some
5 guidance as quickly as possible and then we will communicate to you
6 whether we will be hearing the witness first, which is most likely, or
7 whether we'll allocate time tomorrow to hear this discussion.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. May I inform --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Dawson --
10 MR. ZECEVIC: -- Mr. Dawson?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: -- yeah.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much. I will.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, in addition to the
16 time that Mr. O'Sullivan will need, I can say on behalf of our Defence
17 team that we are going to need seven, eight, or ten minutes in order to
18 explain our position with regard to Coo as well. So from that point of
19 view, it would be more expedient to start with Petritsch first.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what else
22 you planned for today, but I would have a brief proposal orally. I would
23 like to deal with it within three or four minutes. Would it be more
24 convenient to deal with it now or later? It doesn't have to do with
25 Mr. Coo.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we would normally have a break at this point,
2 but you might find that others feel they could make better use of the day
3 if we dealt with this some other way. Do you want to -- I mean, is it
4 something that needs to be done today?
5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, no. It's open.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It relates to a document, Your
8 Honour, that we received from the OTP. I talked to Mr. Hannis about it
9 and there is mutual agreement that we tender the document -- 3D515 is the
10 document. It was disclosed. It's in the system. That would be my
11 proposal. You can have a look at the document at any time and you can
12 rule on that. Again, when we have a break between Prosecution witnesses
13 yet again.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll consider that.
15 I understand that there are occasions when Mr. Hannis is content
16 that a document that would normally only appear in the Defence case might
17 nevertheless come in at this stage, and if it fits into that category
18 without his objection, then, no doubt, that is likely to be approved. But
19 give us an opportunity to consider the position.
20 Mr. Hannis, you know I said last week that it's now going to
21 become an increasing problem not to have any spare witnesses, especially
22 when you're down to a very small number. I really think you ought to make
23 some effort to overlap some of them so that we don't constantly come up
24 with this problem. I say that -- make that comment because I think it's
25 in the interests of justice that you use the full time available to
1 present your case.
2 MR. HANNIS: May I respond, Your Honour?
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
4 MR. HANNIS: I don't want you to take the smile on my face to
5 indicate that I take this lightly. I am ever mindful of your repeated
6 admonitions about that. Sometimes I wake up at 3.00 in the morning
7 thinking about it. We are down to our last 10 or 12 or 14 witnesses,
8 depending on who shows up and certain rulings. We are trying to do our
9 best, but among this group we have some internationals who are travelling
10 sometimes across the ocean. We will make our best efforts, but we still
11 are certain and confident that we'll finish with the evidence in this case
12 by the 23rd of March, even though we may have another gap or two between
13 now and the end. But we will do our best to have at least one or two
14 back-ups standing by.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 Well, that means we will adjourn now until 9.00 tomorrow.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.31 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of
19 February, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.