1 Wednesday, 8 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.30 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-81-T,
9 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we please have the
11 appearances for today starting with the Prosecution.
12 MR. SAXON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm Dan Saxon for the
13 Prosecution, with my colleagues Carolyn Edgerton, Carmela Javier, and
14 Mr. Salvatore Cannata.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Novak
17 Lukic and Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith for the Defence.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I guess you're calling a new
19 witness, Mr. -- is it Madam Edgerton? Yes, Madam Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: One more appearance this week in front of Your
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, if I may, this witness, my next
24 witness who I met for the first time this morning raised a matter
25 relating to protective measures, which she hadn't previously raised in
1 contacts with officials of the OTP or the Victim/Witness Unit, and I've
2 just a further conversation with her, and she's asked me to address the
3 measures in front of Your Honours. So I wonder if we might move briefly
4 into private session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 632-633 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I thought Madam Usher was
3 bringing the witness. Now, that's a very interesting witness who is
4 walking in.
5 Can somebody help?
6 MS. EDGERTON: On behalf of the witness and myself, I do
7 appreciate Your Honours' and my friends' patience and understanding in
8 this matter.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
10 May I raise an issue while we're waiting for the witness? Given
11 the fact that we started after 3.00 today, may I suggest that we sit for
12 one and a half hour sessions and have one break. Then we'll finish
13 exactly at 7.00.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 WITNESS: SLAVICA LIVNJAK
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May the witness please make
21 the declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, ma'am.
25 You may be seated.
1 Before your attorney starts talking to you, let me just say to
2 you that your attorney told us that you were asking for protective
3 measures of face distortion. Such measures have been granted. You can
4 feel free to testify. Your face will not be shown to the public, okay?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Yes, Madam Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
10 Q. Witness, could you state your name for the Chamber today?
11 A. Slavica Livnjak.
12 Q. Now, Mrs. Livnjak, this morning preparing for your testimony here
13 today, do you remember that my colleagues read back to you the contents
14 of statements you gave to police from your own country?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you understand everything that they read to you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It was in your own language?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And do you remember them reading back to you the contents of
21 statements you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, as well, one in 1995
22 and one in 2005?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you understood everything in those statements?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And it was in your own language?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And I understand that you wish to make two clarifications with
4 respect to the information in those statements.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, can we just say, was it -- the
6 second statement, was it 2005 or 2006?
7 MS. EDGERTON: 2005, Your Honour. That's the information I have
8 here before me. If you'll indulge me for a second.
9 The information I have is not correct, and it was in fact 2006.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
11 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
13 MS. EDGERTON:
14 Q. Now, Mrs. Livnjak, as I understand it you wish to clarify two
15 things with respect to the information contained in those statements.
16 One was that in your statement to police from your country in 1995 when
17 you talked about the people who were wounded in the sniping incident,
18 that description wasn't correct; and the description of the people
19 wounded and injured that appeared in your statement to the Office of the
20 Prosecutor in 2006 was. Do I have that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that was in paragraph 9 of your statement to the Office of
23 the Prosecutor in 2006 where the correct information was?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you also wanted to clarify that at the intersection where
1 the tram you were driving was shot, there were two UNPROFOR vehicles
2 positioned, and they were there every day, and that if they weren't there
3 the trams wouldn't have driven; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. EDGERTON: That being the case, Your Honours, if I could have
7 the witness's statements at 65 ter number 9264 and 9265 admitted as
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter number numbers 9264 and 9265 are admitted
10 into evidence. May they please be given exhibit numbers.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 9264 will become Exhibit
12 P31; and 65 ter 09265 will become Exhibit P32.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. Now, a further question. This morning in preparing for your
16 testimony today, did my colleagues read back to you in your own language
17 the questions my former colleague Mr. John Docherty asked of you in the
18 Dragomir Milosevic trial and the answers you gave him?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did they also read back to you the questions asked by my
21 friend Mrs. Isailovic and the answers you gave her?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, if I was to ask you all those same questions today as
24 Mr. Docherty and Mrs. Isailovic, would you give the same answers?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And did you also have a chance to look at copies of photographs
2 of the location at which your tram was at when it was shot that you
3 marked when you last appeared in front of this Tribunal?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you have any corrections or changes to the markings you
6 made on those photographs?
7 A. No. No, I don't.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Then, Your Honours, if I may, the Prosecution
10 would like to move 65 ter numbers 9268 - being the transcript of
11 testimony of the witness - and the associated exhibits referred to in her
12 testimony in chief and cross-examination - those are ter numbers 9266,
13 9267, and 4380 - into evidence as exhibits.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO:
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Those 65 ter documents are
17 admitted into evidence. May they please be given exhibit numbers
18 starting with 9268.
19 THE REGISTRAR: 9268 will become Exhibit P33, Your Honours; 9266
20 will become Exhibit P34; 9267 will become Exhibit P35; and 04380 will
21 become Exhibit P36, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. EDGERTON: That evidence having been admitted, Your Honours,
24 if I may, I'd like to read a brief summary of what that comprises.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may do so.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Your Honours, this witness is going to
2 and has given evidence in respect of scheduled incident B11 of this
3 indictment. Mrs. Livnjak has been a tram driver in Sarajevo since 1977.
4 Around midday
5 civilians on the tram route along Zmaja od Bosne from the depot towards
6 the old town of Sarajevo
7 The witness stated that the most dangerous place on the tram line
8 which came under constant sniper fire was the area close to the Holiday
10 described this as an S curve. Tram drivers have to reduce speed to be
11 able to navigate the S curve safely.
12 On the day in question, as she neared this area the witness saw
13 the pentograph on another tram a few metres ahead of her hit by gunfire
14 as it was taking the bend. As her tram hit the curve, it was also hit by
15 gunfire coming from the right-hand side. Passengers shouted that people
16 had been injured, and Mrs. Livnjak drove to cover behind the Executive
17 Council building where people got out. She saw some of the wounded
18 passengers. She stated there were no military targets in the area of the
19 tram at the time of the incident.
20 The witness believes the gunshots came from the Metalka building,
21 which she described as a well-known sniper position in an area held by
22 forces of the army of Republika Srpska. The Metalka building was the
23 only place the shots could have come from. She marked aerial photographs
24 illustrating the location at which her tram was at the time it was shot
25 and the building she identified as the source of fire.
1 She gave evidence that she saw no military combat going on near
2 the tram at the time it was shot, nor were there any Bosnian army troops
3 or military facilities in the area.
4 And that's the summary of her evidence, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MS. EDGERTON: And I have no further questions for this witness
7 than what you've heard. Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Just before I turn you over
9 to the counsel for the Defence, let me just clear one little point with
10 you, Witness. From 1977 to 1993 where were you driving trams? I know
11 it's a small issue. Just ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Sarajevo. Ilidza, Bascarsija;
13 Bascarsija, Ilidza.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought in your statement of April 2006, you
15 said trams started operating in Sarajevo
16 war in March 1994.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the war zones, yes. While
18 the war was going on, the trams started running in March 1994.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. This was not the first time they were
20 operating in Sarajevo
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand your question.
22 How do you mean the first time? There's been a tram in Sarajevo for a
23 long time.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just reading what was written in your
25 statement. The trams started operating in Sarajevo for the first time
1 during the war in March 1994. Paragraph 6, the very last sentence.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, ma'am.
4 Mr. Lukic.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, good afternoon.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. My name is Novak Lukic one of the Defence counsels for
9 Mr. Perisic. I'm going to ask you a few questions now. Now to be
10 precise with respect to the question Judge Moloto just asked you: Before
11 the war in Bosnia
12 and that was the line from Ilidza towards the centre of town and towards
13 the Miljacka River
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When the conflict began, the trams stopped working until March
16 1994 as you said in your statement, and then it started operating again
17 on that particular line, the line that had existed previously. Is that
18 what you meant to say?
19 A. Yes, but not the whole line. It wasn't operational along the
20 whole route, the whole line. It just worked for a brief distance, and
21 then as the network was set up again it would go further on to Skenderija
22 and then from Skenderija to Carsija, the centre of the town. Then we
23 went Bascarsija and the depot, and that was the circle line that was
24 operational during the war.
25 Q. Do you happen to remember how many trams were working? We're
1 talking about the period from March 1994 and then during the conflict.
2 So the time when the trams were running, how many trams were running?
3 A. There were six trams at the beginning when we had this reduced
4 schedule. One tram went from Cengic Vila and the depot, and the other
5 went from Alipasin bridge, Alipasino, and then forwards and backwards.
6 They reversed.
7 Now, as the network expanded, the trams were renewed and the
8 number of trams increased until we had the whole depot Bascarsija line,
9 the circle line, and then there were about 20 trams running. I'm not
10 quite sure of the exact number but either 18 or 20, maybe.
11 Q. Well, let's simplify this. In the period of March 1995 - let's
12 take that for example - at how many minutes would the tram pass by
13 towards the Holiday Inn, roughly?
14 A. Let me tell you this way: It depended on the driver driving that
15 particular tram. If the driver drove the tram slowly, then there would
16 be a longer time between the two trams. If the drivers were quicker,
17 then that interval would be reduced; but otherwise, normally it would be
18 every four minutes. There would be a tram every four minutes.
19 Q. Thank you. In your statement of 2006, you said that after the
20 incident of the 3rd of March the trams were not operational for three
21 days and then they started working again. Do you remember having said
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, it seems to me, or perhaps I didn't understand the
25 translation we received when the Prosecutor read out the summary of your
1 statement, but I understood it this way: On the day that the incident
2 broke out, you were driving from the depot towards Bascarsija and the
3 centre of town. Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Yes. That's how I understood it, too, when the statement was
6 read out, but I think that perhaps on page 11 of the transcript that
7 wasn't stated in precise terms. Anyway, the Miljacka River
8 moving in your direction, the river was to your right; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, to make things clear to everyone in the courtroom, I'd like
11 to ask the usher to have put up on e-court 65 ter, the map, 4448, map
12 number 4448. But we're going to zoom in onto the right-hand side in
13 relation to the areas we were looking at with yesterday's witnesses. So
14 I'm going to ask you whether you can find your way around the map; and if
15 you can find your way, I'll ask you some questions. If you can't find
16 your way and get your bearings, please tell me.
17 While we're waiting for the map to come up, the incident took
18 place at around noon
19 routes you'd already done along that line?
20 A. Well, I'd just taken over my shift, and I'd just started off from
21 the depot towards Bascarsija. So it was the first one.
22 Q. The previous shift was on duty, and there were no remarks or
23 comments made by them?
24 A. No.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we zoom in, please? Can we zoom
1 in a bit more? Thank you.
2 Q. Now you can see here Marin Dvor and Skenderija. Does that help
3 you find your bearings? Could you draw in the direction you were taking
4 from the Zmaja od Bosne line.
5 A. Let me just take a moment to find it.
6 Q. Do we need to move the map?
7 A. May I just take a moment to find my bearings on this map. I'm
8 not very used to looking at maps. Zmaja od Bosne, here we are. Over
9 here. I can see the railway line. It's difficult for me. I can't find
10 my way around the streets.
11 Q. Was the incident after Marin Dvor or before Marin Dvor?
12 A. The incident took place before Marin Dvor.
13 Q. Then we're going to ask the technicians to move --
14 A. I can't see the S curve, the S bend where the incident took
15 place, but Marin Dvor is very close by here.
16 Q. So the incident took place on the left-hand side?
17 A. It was quite a bit before Marin Dvor, actually, and opposite the
18 Holiday Inn.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May it be moved more to the right?
20 MS. EDGERTON: And if I may, I know from proofing this morning
21 that the witness has a great deal of difficulty unless the font of
22 something she sees is very large.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. We'll zoom in, but I think ...
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think you need these markings. The
1 witness was trying to find her way. So we can move the map and delete
2 that. Okay.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit more.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. We can now see Cengic Vila.
7 A. Yes, that's the beginning of Zmaja od Bosne. Now, a little to
8 the left, and we get to the S curve or S bend. On the opposite side,
9 right. Left. Bear left. Right. Okay.
10 Q. Would you like us to zoom in a bit more to enlarge this?
11 A. Well, can I see the letters a bit better? If we could have the
12 letters enlarged.
13 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry. I know that the S curve isn't yet --
14 that she's talking about isn't yet displayed on the map. You need to
15 move a little bit further to the left.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: To the left or to the right?
17 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry. I've always had an issue that way, Your
18 Honour. That way.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Move that way, please. No, no, no. The opposite
21 MS. EDGERTON: Note -- Your Honour, if I may, that's -- now the S
22 curve should be on the map.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what? I'm not quite clear
24 with this map because the Miljacka River
25 area. That's what I don't understand. The railway line is over here,
1 but I can't really see the part where the shots came from because this is
2 the part of town on the right-hand side and on the right-hand -- when
3 you're on the right-hand side, you can't see the river at all. You can
4 see the Miljacka River
5 Miljacka River
6 tram doesn't run along the river. You can't see the Miljacka River
7 Kuljina Ban, that embankment, there are tracks there, and the river's
9 Well, I can see the S bend if this is the tram-railway line from
10 Marin Dvor, but I think that it runs towards Cengic Vila.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. That's right.
13 A. It's the left side. It's the side which runs from Carsija to the
14 depot and not the side from the depot towards Carsija.
15 Q. Just tell me: The Zmaja od Bosne Street, the tram runs in both
16 directions there, does it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And as you've described the event, the event took place right
19 near the Holiday Inn hotel, right?
20 A. Yes. Along the route from Zmaja od Bosne and Franjo Ratko from
21 the direction of the Miljacka River
22 Bosne Street
23 then there's the Executive Council building and the university.
24 Q. The "M" underneath where it says "Marin Dvor," is that the
25 national Zemaljski Museum?
1 A. The national museum, Zemaljski Museum
2 all, but maybe it is. You might be right.
3 Q. Never mind. On this map where it says Zmaja od Bosne Street,
4 just draw in the direction your tram was moving in. I assume you can do
6 A. I can't because this is in the opposite direction. It's leading
7 from the Carsija, the centre of town, towards the depot. I can't see the
8 tracks leading from the depot towards Bascarsija.
9 Q. Can you see the Zmaja od Bosne Street, and if so, could you mark
10 in that street?
11 A. Yes. Here it is.
12 Q. Now, draw an arrow in the direction your tram was moving.
13 A. If this are -- if these are the tram tracks, then this would be
14 it, like this, and that's the bend. But that -- well, that's not the
15 bend, actually.
16 Q. Yes. I understand. Now, just an arrow to show the direction you
17 were moving in. At the top of that line, just put in an arrow showing
18 the direction.
19 A. [Marks]
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it's clear from
21 this map and that we can tender it into evidence and leave the witness
22 alone. I think she's done the best she can, and I'm sure that on the
23 basis of her testimony and statement we'll be able to determine all the
24 different factors.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The map 65 ter 4448 as
1 marked is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D3, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I'll now move on to the incident itself. In the first statement
7 you gave immediately after the event, you gave it in the Sarajevo police
8 station, and you said today that you had certain corrections to make with
9 respect to the casualties. Now, you said at the time that you heard a
10 blunt blow hitting the back part of the tram. Do you remember having
11 said that? So -- but tell us, how did you know that the tram had been
13 A. Well, I heard the blow. I heard the hit. And it wasn't at the
14 back of the tram, right at the back. It's by the third door because
15 there's a space between the third door, and then there's the fourth door,
16 the fourth doors, and then the back of the tram.
17 Q. Yes. We'll look at the crime report with the photographs, so the
18 location is something we'll be able to see from that there, but I'm just
19 interested in the sound you heard. You heard this sound, blunt blow in
20 the back of the tram, the back part.
21 A. I just heard the sound of the shot, and then the passengers said
22 that the tram was hit, had been hit, was being shot at.
23 Q. That's what I wanted to hear. You heard this blunt sound of a
24 blunt blow.
25 A. But the tram that was moving in front of me, this blunt sound hit
1 the cable above that tram.
2 Q. Did you see what direction it came from?
3 A. Well, I can't say, but we know where it came from. It came from
4 the right-hand side.
5 Q. [No interpretation]
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. And on the basis of the traces you saw in the tram, you made the
8 conclusion that the bullet had come from that direction; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Tell me now, please, do you know that the BH army had the same
11 sniper rifles or similar sniper rifles as the army of Republika Srpska
13 A. No, I don't know that.
14 Q. And tell me, please, how come you knew that it was Seselj's
15 Chetniks, as you said, that were shooting from those positions? You said
16 that you knew that was the case between you heard that Seselj had come
17 visiting, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, you said that
20 not all Serbs were the same as far as you were concerned, that there were
21 differences between the Serbs, people who did things like that and others
22 who didn't; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
1 Honour, for this witness.
2 Thank you, madam.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Any re-examination,
5 Madam Edgerton?
6 MS. EDGERTON: No. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Thank you very much, ma'am. That brings us to the end of your
9 testimony. Thank you very much for coming to testify at the Tribunal.
10 We hope you travel well back home. You are now excused. You may stand
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 MS. EDGERTON: That concludes -- that's my business before Your
15 Honours today, and with your leave I'll take my leave, and I'll turn over
16 the floor to my colleague Mr. Cannata for the next witness.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You're granted leave to take
18 your leave, ma'am. You're excused.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome. Turn over to -- thank you.
21 MR. CANNATA: Good afternoon, Your Honours. If I might have your
22 indulgence, I will just switch the work station.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do, Mr. Cannata. Then we will see you
25 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm so sorry. Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not at all, Your Honour. Just a quick point of
3 clarification prior to the next witness being called, if I might.
4 I understand that the Prosecution intends to introduce a series
5 of statements that this witness has made on a previous occasion with
6 regard to their - as we're calling it for the moment - a 92 ter package.
7 It is my understanding - which is why I'm asking for the point of
8 clarification - it is my understanding that this witness is being called
9 to testify about a particular scheduled incident, and if my understanding
10 is correct, nothing more and nothing less. If that is the case, then I
11 may have some comments with regard to some information that is contained
12 in one of the statements because it does not pertain to the particular
13 scheduled incident upon which this witness has been called. So that is
14 just a brief point of clarification so that I'm able to deal with the
15 evidence as it comes in.
16 The second thing is it -- and I don't know how the Chamber views
17 this. When Ms. Edgerton was giving us the summaries, she said that it
18 was a summary of the evidence, and I had a little bit of a knot in my
19 stomach, just a slight one, because as I understand the summaries,
20 they're not evidence at all; but rather, they are a publication for the
21 public's purpose so they have an understanding of, in fact, what the
22 witness is generally testifying about, but they're not to be deemed to be
23 evidence, and any summary that comes in is not deemed as evidence. I
24 just wanted to make sure I was correct about that too.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are absolutely correct, and that's how the
1 Trial Chamber will regard those summaries.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: If she did say summary of the evidence, then she
4 misspoke. Thank you very much.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you sit down, speaking for myself, I do not
7 understand the clarification you are seeking on the first point.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But if Mr. Cannata understood you, then I'll ask
10 him to respond. Maybe I'll follow the clarification you seek if he does
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
13 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, I'm quite sure I do understand the
14 clarification as sought by my learned friend, but I would like him to
15 clarify also. So I will wait for him to clarify what's the point of --
16 at issue here, and then I give you my response, if you don't mind.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I understand you, then you are just in the dark
18 like I am.
19 What is your point?
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think as a matter of fact, he's not in the
21 dark. He knows exactly what I'm talking about, but as -- as an advocate
22 he wishes -- he wishes for me to commit, which I don't mind doing at all.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: As I understand the testimony of this particular
25 witness, it deals with a Scheduled Incident A, and I believe that it's
1 number 6. To the extent that the witness's first statement resolves
2 around that information, I, of course, have no concerns. To the extent
3 that the Prosecution is relying on any other information concerning what
4 could be deemed potentially an unscheduled incident, and by that I'm
5 referring specifically to information as contained in paragraph 3 of the
6 first witness statement, my question is: Is the Prosecution relying on
7 that particular information, which is an unscheduled incident, as I
8 understand it, for this particular trial?
9 I think I've committed about as much as I can, Mr. Cannata.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
11 MR. CANNATA: The Prosecution acknowledges that there is a
12 Rule 72 bis decision outstanding, so the Prosecution decides not to lead
13 any evidence on the '93 incident that the Defence counsel has just
14 referred to, which is the one referred to at paragraph 3 of the first
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Then I'm clear about what they're doing, and I'm
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 May you call your witness, Mr. Cannata.
21 MR. CANNATA: Your Honours, the Prosecution calls Witness Enes
22 Jasarevic. With your leave, Your Honour, while the witness is brought
23 here, I give you a very short -- a brief summary of what I intend to do
24 with this witness.
25 Now, the witness is a 92 witness as anticipated by the Defence,
1 and he gave two statements to the OTP in March 1997 and May 2006 and also
2 testified before this Tribunal in the Dragomir Milosevic case.
3 With your leave, we will go through the 92 ter procedure and we
4 will seek the admission of these two statements and the transcripts.
5 Now, to complete the procedure, we will then -- actually, after
6 the procedure is completed, we will then read for the public and the
7 record a very short summary, a real short one this time.
8 And finally, with your leave, we will seek to ask some additional
9 questions, very limited, and I hope to contain my examination within the
10 30 minutes as scheduled before. Thank you.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 WITNESS: ENES JASAREVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir.
15 May the witness please make the declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
19 Yes, Mr. Cannata.
20 Examination by Mr. Cannata:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jasarevic. Good afternoon, Witness. Could
22 you please state your full name, place, and date of birth for the record.
23 A. My name is Enes Jasarevic. I was born in 1958 in Sarajevo
24 Q. Sir, did you give two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor,
25 the first on 10 March 1997
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review these two statements in
3 your own language before appearing today in court?
4 A. Yes, yes. I have had an opportunity to review them.
5 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review the corrections,
6 amendments, and clarifications that you made to your first statement on
7 your second statement given to the OTP on 19 May 2006 in a language that
8 you understand before coming here today?
9 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Now, with the corrections to the first statement made on the
11 second statement given on 19 May in 2006, do you confirm that these
12 statements are true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and
14 A. Yes. With those corrections, yes.
15 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, at this point I would move these two
16 statements which are 65 ter 9270 and 9271 into evidence with your leave.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 9270, 9271 are admitted into evidence. May
18 they be please be given an exhibit number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 09270 will become Exhibit P37, Your
20 Honours; and 65 ter 09271 will become Exhibit P38.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Cannata.
22 MR. CANNATA: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, did you testify in case Prosecutor versus Dragomir
24 Milosevic on 1st of March, 2007? Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes. Yes, I do remember it.
1 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review copy of your testimony in
2 chief before this Tribunal in that case in a language you do understand?
3 Did you?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Did you also have an opportunity to review the documents, namely
6 maps and photographs, which were associated to the testimony in chief
7 that you gave to this Tribunal in the Dragomir Milosevic case?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Witness, do you confirm, then, that the evidence that you gave in
10 your testimony in chief and its associated exhibits are true and accurate
11 to the best of your knowledge and belief?
12 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Do such evidence -- excuse me, Your Honours.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. CANNATA:
16 Q. Do such evidence - that is, the transcript and its associated
17 exhibits - reflect your answers if you were to answer to the same
18 questions again today?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, at this point I would move the
21 transcripts and associated exhibits discussed into evidence, and for that
22 purpose with your leave I can provide you with a list of 65 ter numbers.
23 I will move into evidence 65 ter number 9277, which is the
24 transcript of Witness Jasarevic's testimony in Dragomir Milosevic case,
25 the highlighted parts which the Prosecution intends to rely upon. Then
1 65 ter 9272 would be the street map Sarajevo as marked by the witness; 65
2 ter 9273, again, an annotated map; 65 ter 3024.01, photograph; 3024.11,
3 another photograph; 3024.2, another photograph; 3024.3, 3024.4, 3024. --
4 actually, 05. I have to make a correction. I'm sorry. After -- so the
5 65 ter 3024.2 should be recorded as 3024.02. I'm sorry, Your Honour.
6 I'm getting confused with all this numbering. And then 3024.3 should be
7 recorded as 3024.03; 3024.4 should be transcribed as 3024.04; 3024.05,
8 another photograph; 3024.06 - I'm coming to an end now with your
9 indulgence - 3024.08; and 3024.09; and the last one would be 9275, which
10 is a street map again. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Cannata. All those 65 ter
12 documents are admitted into evidence. May they please be given an
13 exhibit number starting with 65 ter 9277.
14 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 09277 will be Exhibit P39, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 09272 will become Exhibit P40. 65 ter
17 09273 will become Exhibit P41. 65 ter 03024.01 will become Exhibit P42.
18 65 ter 03024.11 will become P43. 65 ter 03024.02 will become Exhibit
19 P44. 65 ter 03024.03 will become Exhibit P45. 65 ter 03024.04 will
20 become Exhibit P46. 65 ter 03024.05 will become Exhibit P47. 65 ter
21 03024.06 will become Exhibit P48. 65 ter 03024.08 will become Exhibit
22 P49. 65 ter 03024.09 will become Exhibit P50. And finally, 65 ter 09275
23 will become Exhibit P51, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. Cannata.
25 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour, with your leave at this point I would
1 read out the summary.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
3 MR. CANNATA: Witness Enes Jasarevic has given evidence in
4 respect of Scheduled Incident A6 of the indictment, that is the incident
5 occurred on 24 May 1995
6 civilians were killed and at least six, including the witness himself,
7 were wounded by the explosion of a modified air bomb.
8 During the period 1994 to 1995, the witness worked as an
9 electrician for high-voltage power lines at the transformer station
10 located in Majdanska Street in the Novi Grad municipality of Sarajevo
11 He testified that on 24 May 1995
12 colleagues, Salko Slato and Prasko Sulejman, were hit by the explosion of
13 a bomb which impacted a pylon inside the compound of the transformer
14 station. As a result of such explosion, Witness Jasarevic was wounded in
15 his arm and legs. Salko Slato was slightly injured, and Prasko Sulejman
16 was killed.
17 The witness testified there were no military position anywhere
18 near the transformer station. He also gave evidence that on 24 May 1995,
19 he did not notice any fighting or military activity or military personnel
20 in the vicinity of the transformer station.
21 That is the summary of evidence, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MR. CANNATA: And I'm getting really close to the end of my
24 examination, and with your leave if I can ask a few -- really, a few
25 questions to clarify some matters in the previous statements.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, sir.
2 MR. CANNATA: Thank you very much.
3 Madam Registrar, can we please have 65 ter 9245 on the screen,
5 And while this is being uploaded, it's one of our Sarajevo
6 contained in the court binder. Now, as Your Honour and the parties are
7 aware, such an exhibit -- such a 65 ter number is part of our sixth
8 supplemental exhibit list, and a decision for that application is still
9 pending. So as I understand, this exhibit will be -- the Prosecution
10 will ask to mark for identification this exhibit.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which map in the book?
12 MR. CANNATA: It's the -- the one -- give me one second, Your
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Map 13.
15 MR. CANNATA: Yes, Your Honour, correct. That's page 13,
16 although I would ask Madam Registrar to zoom in -- actually, to zoom in a
17 little bit right towards the centre of the map. Yes. I think that would
18 be -- that should be enough.
19 Q. Mr. Witness, do you see the map? Do you have a map on your
21 A. Yes, yes. I see it.
22 Q. Do you see the transformer station you were working at on the 24
23 May 1995?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are asked to repeat your answer, sir. The
1 witness -- the interpreters didn't hear you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said yes, I see it.
3 MR. CANNATA:
4 Q. Can you please mark the transformer station with the marker that
5 Madam Usher will provide you with and sign it with the letter "A"?
6 A. [Marks] Is this all right?
7 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness. How long have you worked at
8 the transformer station in Majdanska Street, Mr. Jasarevic?
9 A. You mean during the war?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. A year and a half, something like that.
12 Q. So are you familiar with the surroundings of the transformer
14 A. Yes, yes, quite familiar.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you see -- do you recognise the big building
16 behind the transformer station?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're talking about the building immediately
18 behind or where there are so many buildings behind the transformer
19 station, Mr. Cannata?
20 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour. I will
21 rephrase the question.
22 Q. Do you see the TV building here in this map?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Can you please mark it with the letter "B." Thank you.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasarevic. Do you also see the municipality
2 building in this map? Do you?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Can you please mark it with the letter "C."
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you. Do you see what seems to me a sort of light yellow
7 building immediately in front of the transformer station? Do you see
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Can you please mark it with the letter "D."
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to know, what is that building?
13 A. It's a school, a primary school.
14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jasarevic, do you also see next to the school
15 building a group of high-rise buildings? Do you see them?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Can you please mark them with the letter "E."
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. What buildings are there? What kind of
20 buildings are there?
21 A. Residential buildings. It's the Opacno [phoen] residential
23 Q. Now, on the 24th May, 1995, was any of these building in the
24 vicinity of the transformer station at Majdanska Street which you marked
25 as letter "A"? Was any of them a military facility?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I object on the grounds of leading. I'm going to
3 object on the grounds of leading. He can describe what the buildings
4 were. It may well be outside of his knowledge, but ...
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
6 MR. CANNATA: Your Honour --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. CANNATA: Sorry. I might re-ask the same question for each
9 of the buildings I asked the witness to mark, and I think that would be a
10 legitimate question to ask the witness whether, for instance, the
11 municipality building was a military target or a -- sorry, I'll rephrase.
12 A military facility. That's, I think, within the allowed lines of
13 questioning. Now, for the sake of time, I have, let's say, consolidated
14 a set of questions in just one question. But if Your Honour prefers, I
15 can definitely go through --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
17 MR. CANNATA: Let me rephrase the questions, Your Honour.
18 Q. On the 24th of May, 1995, Mr. Jasarevic, have you noticed any
19 military personnel or military activity in the vicinity of the
20 transformer station at Majdanska Street?
21 A. No, I did not notice any military units or any -- anything.
22 MR. CANNATA: That concludes my examination-in-chief, Your
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Cannata.
25 Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
2 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. I'd like to first of all ask you some -- can you not hear?
5 A. I can hear now, yes.
6 Q. I'd like to first of all ask you some questions concerning --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, your opposite number is on his
9 feet. Yes, Mr. Cannata. You want to tender.
10 MR. CANNATA: Yes, yes. I really apologise for -- with all these
11 markings and questions, I forgot the most important thing. The
12 Prosecution would like to then tender the marked map into evidence, and
13 I'm really sorry to my learned friend.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The map as marked is
15 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
16 MR. CANNATA: Again, it would be a marked -- a
17 marked-for-identification document, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's marked for identification, yes, of course.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The map marked by the witness, Your Honours, will
20 become Exhibit P52 marked for identification.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Sorry about that, Mr. Guy-Smith. You may proceed.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not at all.
24 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about your statement, and by
25 that I'm referring to the first statement that you made, the statement
1 that you ultimately corrected, and that would be -- and we don't need to
2 bring it up yet. That would be Exhibit P37.
3 What I'd like to know is this: Could you explain to the Chamber
4 how you went about making that statement? And by that, I mean were you
5 involved in an interview with some folks, and as they were talking to you
6 they were writing down what you said and you confirmed it; or did you
7 talk to them for a period of time and come back at a later point in time
8 and they handed you a statement? Could you tell us how the statement was
10 A. I was invited to make a statement. I said what had happened on
11 that day. There were two people present, a man and a woman who was
12 interpreting. I didn't write the statement then. I was invited again,
13 but I really can't recall when that was. And when I saw the statement,
14 some things were not the way I had told them, and that's it.
15 Q. When you say when you saw the statement, I want to go back now,
16 and if we could -- if we could pull up Exhibit P37 because you said you
17 weren't sure when you -- you saw the statement or when you made the
18 statement. I want to see whether this is of any help to you. And if we
19 could just look at the -- I think it would be -- it would be the third
20 page of the statement.
21 Could we have the third page, please. Thank you.
22 Do you recognise that signature as being your signature?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Okay. And the date that you made the statement, and by that I
25 mean the date you signed the statement was on the 10th of March, 1997
2 A. Probably. It was a long time ago.
3 Q. I understand. It was a long time ago. And at that point in
4 time, before you -- before you signed the statement, you had an
5 opportunity to take a look at it and go through it. You were satisfied
6 with it, I guess, because you signed it, right?
7 A. Well, I don't really remember this statement that well. That's
8 why I corrected it later on because it wasn't the way I -- well, it was
9 not clear to me.
10 Q. And when -- sorry, sir. You were about to say something. I
11 didn't mean to interrupt you.
12 A. No, no. It's all right.
13 Q. So I take it that after you signed the statement in March of
14 1997, you didn't have any further contact with an investigator or member
15 of the Prosecution until 2006, some nine years later, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in 2006, at that point in time when you met with them, and I
18 think you met with them in May of 2006, at that point in time did they
19 give you your old statement, you looked at it and you went, "Wow, that
20 thing I signed nine years ago, there's some mistakes in it"? Is that
21 what happened?
22 A. Yes, that's what I said. I said there were some things there
23 that I hadn't said in that way.
24 Q. That you -- that you hadn't said in that way. And when you --
25 back in 1997 when you -- when you made your statement and before you
1 signed it, did you get a chance to read your statement in your own
3 A. I don't remember whether I read it or not. I really don't. But
4 there were certainly some things in it that weren't like that.
5 Q. Do you have any idea how they got there? Since -- if you didn't
6 say them, do you know how they got there?
7 A. Well, probably the young lady who was interpreting, she was the
8 one writing it down. Whether she was doing it properly, I don't know.
9 Q. I just want to stay for a moment with this statement in 1997,
10 which we know you've corrected. At that point in time, which you've just
11 told us is perhaps she was writing things down, but before you signed the
12 statement, did somebody go through the statement with you, maybe not word
13 by word but certainly line by line or paragraph by paragraph to ensure
14 that the information contained in this --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata.
16 MR. CANNATA: I think the same question has been asked, maybe on
17 the -- in different words, but the concept is clear. It has been asked
18 to the witness. Page 37, line 10: "When you made your statement, and
19 before you signed it" - and I'm quoting - "did you get a chance to read
20 your statement in your own language?" And the witness said, "I don't
21 remember." I wonder whether there's any point in going through this same
22 question again.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might respond, Your Honour. It's a slightly
24 different question by virtue of the witness's answer because from what I
25 understood his answer to be - and I had one question in this regard and
1 then I'm finished with this area - was that the statement was created, I
2 guess by the person who was writing stuff down, and so I'm wondering
3 whether or not he had a chance to just have somebody go through it line
4 by line, and then I'm done in this area. But if the Chamber's satisfied
5 where we are, I'm satisfied. Otherwise, it's just dealing with a
6 different way. As opposed to the internal reflection of looking at the
7 statement, it would be the -- it would be the verbal contact between two
8 people as they're reviewing the statement itself. It's to make sure that
9 the information contained therein would be accurate. It would be one of
10 the ways that people go through an interview process.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The only question is that the witness says he
12 doesn't remember, but ask the question. Let's find out whether that jogs
13 his memory.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH:
15 Q. Do you recall whether or not as you were going through the first
16 statement, did you have an opportunity to have somebody go through it
17 with you line by line or paragraph by paragraph so you could confirm,
18 deny, or modify the information that is contained within each of the
19 paragraphs before you signed it? If you remember, great. If you don't
20 remember, that's fine too.
21 A. Believe me, I don't remember that somebody did that with me.
22 Q. Between the time that you signed your first statement and the
23 time that you had second contact with the Office of the Prosecutor in
24 2006, did you have occasion to spend any time watching any of the
25 proceedings that occurred here at the Tribunal?
1 A. You mean on television?
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. Well, sometimes. Occasionally by chance, but not regularly.
4 Just the sort of bulletins.
5 Q. And before you testified in the previous case, did you have
6 occasion to talk to anybody about bombs in general and your experience
7 with them in specific apart from the statement that you made in 1997?
8 A. No. I've had no experience with any bombs. Who could I talk to?
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: My internal clock is getting somewhat better, and
11 I believe based on the Chamber's estimation now would be an appropriate
12 time for a break. I think it's been an hour and a half.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are very right, Mr. Guy-Smith. We'll take a
14 break and come back at half past 5.00. Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 5.01 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 5.30 p.m.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. Could you please explain to the Chamber about what the function
20 is of a transformer like the one that you were at on May 24th, 1995?
21 What does a transformer do?
22 A. Well, a transformer station uses power lines, long distance power
23 lines, and it's a 110-kilowatt energy voltage, high voltage, and then a
24 transformer reduces the level and provides the electricity for the
25 population. So that would be its basic function.
1 Q. In the city of Sarajevo
2 was being used for the purpose that you've just said, which is to provide
3 electricity during the time that you were working?
4 A. Yes, yes. There were several. This particular one couldn't
5 cover all the needs. It was just for a part of town. So, yes, there
6 were others.
7 Q. Could you -- could you tell us how many transformers there were
8 in the city of Sarajevo
9 A. You mean the ones that were operational? There weren't any long
10 distance power lines for some areas, so they had to use cables and
12 Q. Yes, I do mean it as you've suggested, the ones that were
13 operational. How many operational transformers were there?
14 A. Well, mostly it was just one or two that were operational, and we
15 received high voltage electricity from them, and then this would be
16 relayed to the others through cables and so on, but it wasn't sufficient
17 to supply the entire city.
18 Q. During the time that you were working on the power lines in 1995,
19 many times that you were working it was as a result of the power lines
20 being damaged or destroyed because of fighting between the various
21 armies, correct?
22 A. Well, yes, because there was an interruption in the system due to
23 the war going on.
24 Q. And on occasions, one of the targets that you had to repair in
25 your capacity as the repairman on the power lines was a targeted power
1 line or a pylon that one or the other of the warring factions had
2 targeted for an attack, correct?
3 A. Well, not exactly. Mostly one side because the other side, it
4 wasn't in their interest to cut off the power supply because we'd have to
5 repair it again.
6 Q. I see. And the side who it wasn't in their interest to cut off
7 the power supply, that would have been the Bosnian army, right? They
8 needed that power supply in order to -- in order to function, right?
9 A. Well, I wouldn't put it that way. It was the citizens that
10 needed the power supply. I don't know about the BH army, but the city
11 needed electricity and a power supply.
12 Q. All right. To your knowledge, was the BH army in the city itself
13 in 1995?
14 A. Whether the army was in the city, is that what you're asking,
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Well, I assume so.
18 Q. And the army used the electricity that came from the transformers
19 that were in the city, right?
20 A. I don't know that. I don't know what electricity it used and
21 where the electricity went. I'm just telling you how it was distributed,
22 with the cables. Now, what it was used for, I didn't know that.
23 Q. During the time that you were involved in repairing power lines
24 and I assume working on the transformer, also, did you ever have occasion
25 to go to an area where the Bosnian army was billeted and do any electric
1 repair in such an area?
2 A. No, we didn't repair things where the soldiers were, just where
3 the break had occurred. And there were pylons, power lines that were cut
4 off, and you went there. There were no soldiers there. Well, I don't
5 know. Perhaps we were at some separation line at times, but not -- but
6 not where UNPROFOR was.
7 Q. Not where UNPROFOR was. Now, UNPROFOR on occasion, if I
8 understood your previous testimony, would on occasion escort you to areas
9 where there were broken lines; is that correct?
10 A. Well, yes. Yes, that's right, because otherwise we couldn't go
11 there. We couldn't go there without them.
12 Q. And --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Could it be made clear, Mr. Guy-Smith,
14 what broken lines -- what we mean by "broken lines"? There's been a
15 separation -- a question of lines, separation --
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- and power lines.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand.
19 Q. When we're talking about broken lines, I'm not referring to the
20 breaking of a front line in the military sense but, rather, a broken line
21 in terms of an electrical line, a power line, correct? So when I use the
22 word "broken lines" - point well taken - we're discussing the -- a line
23 that moves energy from one part -- from one point to another point
24 through -- after having been modified through the transformer, right?
25 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
1 Q. Now, when there was -- when there was fighting going on, UNPROFOR
2 would not escort you to an area where there may be the necessity of some
3 repair, correct?
4 A. Could you repeat that question? I didn't understand you.
5 Q. My apologies. It was badly phrased. Let me try again.
6 When you were going to go repair an electric line, you were
7 escorted by UNPROFOR, right?
8 A. That's right, yes.
9 Q. When there was fighting going on, then you did not go repair the
10 lines, the electric lines, because among other things, UNPROFOR did not
11 escort you to the area where you may do such repair, right?
12 A. Well, yes. That was mostly it. They would inform us when they
13 were ready and when they could go or could not go. We didn't know the
14 reasons, but they said we can't go and then we didn't go and do our
15 repair work.
16 Q. And as a matter of fact, on May 24th, that was the day that you
17 were going to do some repair work, but you received information from
18 UNPROFOR that they would not be escorting you on that day, right?
19 A. Yes, that's right. They would just say no mission, cancel it,
20 and that would be that.
21 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in 1999, when NATO bombed
23 transformers in the city of Belgrade
24 A. No, I'm not aware of that, that that was the main target, no.
25 Q. I'm sorry, not the main target, one of the main targets was the
1 transformers in the city, the same kinds of transformers that we've been
2 talking about here today.
3 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of transformers being their target.
4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that when NATO bombed Belgrade in 1999,
5 transformers in the city of Belgrade
6 A. I don't know that either. No, it's not something that I'm aware
8 Q. I thank you for your time, sir.
9 A. You're welcome.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before I turn it over to Mr. Cannata, can I
11 ask you: Did you observe on any one occasion fighting going on in the
12 city of Sarajevo
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't in a position to notice
14 whether there was fighting going on or not. Even when I went to the area
15 where there was some combat, when I got there, there was a truce, so
16 there wasn't any. No, not in town.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's understand the question. I'm not asking you
18 whether you were in a position to notice. I'm asking you, did you -- did
19 you observe any fighting at all in the city of Sarajevo during this
20 period that we're talking about?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't notice anything like
22 that. I wasn't in that kind of situation.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Cannata, any re-examination?
24 MR. CANNATA: Yes, Your Honour. With your leave, one question.
25 Let's say a couple of questions.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Cannata:
2 Q. Sir, you've been asked about how many transformer stations were
3 operational in Sarajevo
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. You said one or two. Is that your answer?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Out of how many transformer stations are we talking about? How
8 many transformer stations were in Sarajevo
9 A. Well, I remember -- let me just take a moment to count them if I
10 may. About 16 or 17 were operational before the war, specifically in
12 feeds to cover the area because one or two couldn't cover the entire
14 Q. Thank you. So only one or two out of the 16 or 17 transformer
15 stations in Sarajevo
16 with, which is mainly 1995; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, because the others were not operational. We received
18 electricity from just one direction. So the others couldn't have been
20 Q. And why is that, sir? Why only one or two transformer stations
21 were operational?
22 A. Well, because Sarajevo
23 to receive the energy source from hydroelectric power plants or
24 thermoelectric power plants, and they need long distance power lines, and
25 all that was covered by the other side, so all you could get was what
1 they let you have, and that long-distance transmission line was the only
2 one that was functioning properly.
3 Q. What do you mean by the other side? Can you please be more
5 A. Well, for example, let me explain it. From the Kakanj
6 thermoelectric power plant, there's no pylon or long distance
7 transmission line leading to Sarajevo
8 there's one in Blazuj and Raljevo, and the same transformer stations are
9 then used to transmit electricity to us in town so that you could only
10 receive as much as they let through.
11 Q. So your evidence is that the electricity in Sarajevo was mainly
12 based on what the city could receive from the surrounding hills, from the
13 outside of the city lying in the valley; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct because we didn't have a power line that
15 would reach us.
16 Q. Would the operations of just one or two transformer stations in
18 electricity for daily survival?
19 A. Well, no, not even close. Let me tell you this way: If I said
20 there were 16 or 17 of them that were usually needed for providing
21 consumers with electricity, then it's as if you had just one glass of
22 water to quench the thirst of ten people. They could just have a little,
23 but you couldn't quench their thirst with just one glass of water.
24 MR. CANNATA: No further questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Cannata.
1 Mr. Jasarevic, this brings us to the end of your testimony.
2 Thank you very much for coming to the Tribunal to testify. You are now
3 excused. You may stand down, and may you travel well back home.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Cannata.
7 MR. CANNATA: May I be excused for one moment?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused for one moment only.
9 MR. CANNATA: Thank you. I'll be short. Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see you're rising, Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, that is the last
12 witness whom the Prosecution was able to arrange to bring here this week.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: This week.
14 MR. SAXON: This week.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you don't have one tomorrow?
16 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you will have one on Monday?
18 MR. SAXON: Monday the 27th, Your Honour, of October, because we
19 understand that the next two weeks we have no -- no trial.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are very right.
21 MR. SAXON: Okay.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are very right.
23 MR. SAXON: However, Your Honours, I have one administrative
24 matter that I would like to raise with your leave.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
1 MR. SAXON: May we move into private session for a moment, Your
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
4 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 Any other issues by way of housekeeping from any party? None.
2 That being the case, then the case stands adjourned to Monday, the 27th
3 of October at 9.00 in the morning in courtroom 2.
4 Court adjourned.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.52 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day
7 of October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.