Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 630

 1                           Wednesday, 8 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 3.30 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Could we please have the

11     appearances for today starting with the Prosecution.

12             MR. SAXON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I'm Dan Saxon for the

13     Prosecution, with my colleagues Carolyn Edgerton, Carmela Javier, and

14     Mr. Salvatore Cannata.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Novak

17     Lukic and Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith for the Defence.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  I guess you're calling a new

19     witness, Mr. -- is it Madam Edgerton?  Yes, Madam Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  One more appearance this week in front of Your

21     Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, if I may, this witness, my next

24     witness who I met for the first time this morning raised a matter

25     relating to protective measures, which she hadn't previously raised in

Page 631

 1     contacts with officials of the OTP or the Victim/Witness Unit, and I've

 2     just a further conversation with her, and she's asked me to address the

 3     measures in front of Your Honours.  So I wonder if we might move briefly

 4     into private session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

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Page 632











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Page 634

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25                           [Open session]

Page 635

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  I thought Madam Usher was

 3     bringing the witness.  Now, that's a very interesting witness who is

 4     walking in.

 5             Can somebody help?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  On behalf of the witness and myself, I do

 7     appreciate Your Honours' and my friends' patience and understanding in

 8     this matter.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

10             May I raise an issue while we're waiting for the witness?  Given

11     the fact that we started after 3.00 today, may I suggest that we sit for

12     one and a half hour sessions and have one break.  Then we'll finish

13     exactly at 7.00.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15                           WITNESS:  SLAVICA LIVNJAK

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  May the witness please make

21     the declaration.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated, ma'am.

25     You may be seated.

Page 636

 1             Before your attorney starts talking to you, let me just say to

 2     you that your attorney told us that you were asking for protective

 3     measures of face distortion.  Such measures have been granted.  You can

 4     feel free to testify.  Your face will not be shown to the public, okay?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             Yes, Madam Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

10        Q.   Witness, could you state your name for the Chamber today?

11        A.   Slavica Livnjak.

12        Q.   Now, Mrs. Livnjak, this morning preparing for your testimony here

13     today, do you remember that my colleagues read back to you the contents

14     of statements you gave to police from your own country?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you understand everything that they read to you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   It was in your own language?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And do you remember them reading back to you the contents of

21     statements you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, as well, one in 1995

22     and one in 2005?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you understood everything in those statements?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 637

 1        Q.   And it was in your own language?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And I understand that you wish to make two clarifications with

 4     respect to the information in those statements.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, can we just say, was it -- the

 6     second statement, was it 2005 or 2006?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  2005, Your Honour.  That's the information I have

 8     here before me.  If you'll indulge me for a second.

 9             The information I have is not correct, and it was in fact 2006.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  My apologies, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

13             MS. EDGERTON:

14        Q.   Now, Mrs. Livnjak, as I understand it you wish to clarify two

15     things with respect to the information contained in those statements.

16     One was that in your statement to police from your country in 1995 when

17     you talked about the people who were wounded in the sniping incident,

18     that description wasn't correct; and the description of the people

19     wounded and injured that appeared in your statement to the Office of the

20     Prosecutor in 2006 was.  Do I have that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And that was in paragraph 9 of your statement to the Office of

23     the Prosecutor in 2006 where the correct information was?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, you also wanted to clarify that at the intersection where

Page 638

 1     the tram you were driving was shot, there were two UNPROFOR vehicles

 2     positioned, and they were there every day, and that if they weren't there

 3     the trams wouldn't have driven; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  That being the case, Your Honours, if I could have

 7     the witness's statements at 65 ter number 9264 and 9265 admitted as

 8     exhibits.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter number numbers 9264 and 9265 are admitted

10     into evidence.  May they please be given exhibit numbers.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 9264 will become Exhibit

12     P31; and 65 ter 09265 will become Exhibit P32.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   Now, a further question.  This morning in preparing for your

16     testimony today, did my colleagues read back to you in your own language

17     the questions my former colleague Mr. John Docherty asked of you in the

18     Dragomir Milosevic trial and the answers you gave him?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And did they also read back to you the questions asked by my

21     friend Mrs. Isailovic and the answers you gave her?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, if I was to ask you all those same questions today as

24     Mr. Docherty and Mrs. Isailovic, would you give the same answers?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 639

 1        Q.   And did you also have a chance to look at copies of photographs

 2     of the location at which your tram was at when it was shot that you

 3     marked when you last appeared in front of this Tribunal?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And do you have any corrections or changes to the markings you

 6     made on those photographs?

 7        A.   No.  No, I don't.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Then, Your Honours, if I may, the Prosecution

10     would like to move 65 ter numbers 9268 - being the transcript of

11     testimony of the witness - and the associated exhibits referred to in her

12     testimony in chief and cross-examination - those are ter numbers 9266,

13     9267, and 4380 - into evidence as exhibits.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Those 65 ter documents are

17     admitted into evidence.  May they please be given exhibit numbers

18     starting with 9268.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  9268 will become Exhibit P33, Your Honours; 9266

20     will become Exhibit P34; 9267 will become Exhibit P35; and 04380 will

21     become Exhibit P36, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  That evidence having been admitted, Your Honours,

24     if I may, I'd like to read a brief summary of what that comprises.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may do so.

Page 640

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Your Honours, this witness is going to

 2     and has given evidence in respect of scheduled incident B11 of this

 3     indictment.  Mrs. Livnjak has been a tram driver in Sarajevo since 1977.

 4     Around midday on 3 March 1995, she was driving a crowded tram filled with

 5     civilians on the tram route along Zmaja od Bosne from the depot towards

 6     the old town of Sarajevo.  This was a time of cease-fire.

 7             The witness stated that the most dangerous place on the tram line

 8     which came under constant sniper fire was the area close to the Holiday

 9     Inn where the tram makes two turns on a very short distance.  She

10     described this as an S curve.  Tram drivers have to reduce speed to be

11     able to navigate the S curve safely.

12             On the day in question, as she neared this area the witness saw

13     the pentograph on another tram a few metres ahead of her hit by gunfire

14     as it was taking the bend.  As her tram hit the curve, it was also hit by

15     gunfire coming from the right-hand side.  Passengers shouted that people

16     had been injured, and Mrs. Livnjak drove to cover behind the Executive

17     Council building where people got out.  She saw some of the wounded

18     passengers.  She stated there were no military targets in the area of the

19     tram at the time of the incident.

20             The witness believes the gunshots came from the Metalka building,

21     which she described as a well-known sniper position in an area held by

22     forces of the army of Republika Srpska.  The Metalka building was the

23     only place the shots could have come from.  She marked aerial photographs

24     illustrating the location at which her tram was at the time it was shot

25     and the building she identified as the source of fire.

Page 641

 1             She gave evidence that she saw no military combat going on near

 2     the tram at the time it was shot, nor were there any Bosnian army troops

 3     or military facilities in the area.

 4             And that's the summary of her evidence, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  And I have no further questions for this witness

 7     than what you've heard.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Just before I turn you over

 9     to the counsel for the Defence, let me just clear one little point with

10     you, Witness.  From 1977 to 1993 where were you driving trams?  I know

11     it's a small issue.  Just ...

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Sarajevo.  Ilidza, Bascarsija;

13     Bascarsija, Ilidza.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought in your statement of April 2006, you

15     said trams started operating in Sarajevo for the first time during the

16     war in March 1994.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In the war zones, yes.  While

18     the war was going on, the trams started running in March 1994.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh.  This was not the first time they were

20     operating in Sarajevo?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand your question.

22     How do you mean the first time?  There's been a tram in Sarajevo for a

23     long time.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was just reading what was written in your

25     statement.  The trams started operating in Sarajevo for the first time

Page 642

 1     during the war in March 1994.  Paragraph 6, the very last sentence.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, ma'am.

 4             Mr. Lukic.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, good afternoon.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   My name is Novak Lukic one of the Defence counsels for

 9     Mr. Perisic.  I'm going to ask you a few questions now.  Now to be

10     precise with respect to the question Judge Moloto just asked you:  Before

11     the war in Bosnia, that is to say before 1992, the trams ran normally,

12     and that was the line from Ilidza towards the centre of town and towards

13     the Miljacka River.  Is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When the conflict began, the trams stopped working until March

16     1994 as you said in your statement, and then it started operating again

17     on that particular line, the line that had existed previously.  Is that

18     what you meant to say?

19        A.   Yes, but not the whole line.  It wasn't operational along the

20     whole route, the whole line.  It just worked for a brief distance, and

21     then as the network was set up again it would go further on to Skenderija

22     and then from Skenderija to Carsija, the centre of the town.  Then we

23     went Bascarsija and the depot, and that was the circle line that was

24     operational during the war.

25        Q.   Do you happen to remember how many trams were working?  We're

Page 643

 1     talking about the period from March 1994 and then during the conflict.

 2     So the time when the trams were running, how many trams were running?

 3        A.   There were six trams at the beginning when we had this reduced

 4     schedule.  One tram went from Cengic Vila and the depot, and the other

 5     went from Alipasin bridge, Alipasino, and then forwards and backwards.

 6     They reversed.

 7             Now, as the network expanded, the trams were renewed and the

 8     number of trams increased until we had the whole depot Bascarsija line,

 9     the circle line, and then there were about 20 trams running.  I'm not

10     quite sure of the exact number but either 18 or 20, maybe.

11        Q.   Well, let's simplify this.  In the period of March 1995 - let's

12     take that for example - at how many minutes would the tram pass by

13     towards the Holiday Inn, roughly?

14        A.   Let me tell you this way:  It depended on the driver driving that

15     particular tram.  If the driver drove the tram slowly, then there would

16     be a longer time between the two trams.  If the drivers were quicker,

17     then that interval would be reduced; but otherwise, normally it would be

18     every four minutes.  There would be a tram every four minutes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement of 2006, you said that after the

20     incident of the 3rd of March the trams were not operational for three

21     days and then they started working again.  Do you remember having said

22     that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, it seems to me, or perhaps I didn't understand the

25     translation we received when the Prosecutor read out the summary of your

Page 644

 1     statement, but I understood it this way:  On the day that the incident

 2     broke out, you were driving from the depot towards Bascarsija and the

 3     centre of town.  Is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Yes.  That's how I understood it, too, when the statement was

 6     read out, but I think that perhaps on page 11 of the transcript that

 7     wasn't stated in precise terms.  Anyway, the Miljacka River, if you were

 8     moving in your direction, the river was to your right; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, to make things clear to everyone in the courtroom, I'd like

11     to ask the usher to have put up on e-court 65 ter, the map, 4448, map

12     number 4448.  But we're going to zoom in onto the right-hand side in

13     relation to the areas we were looking at with yesterday's witnesses.  So

14     I'm going to ask you whether you can find your way around the map; and if

15     you can find your way, I'll ask you some questions.  If you can't find

16     your way and get your bearings, please tell me.

17             While we're waiting for the map to come up, the incident took

18     place at around noon.  Now, before that event do you remember how many

19     routes you'd already done along that line?

20        A.   Well, I'd just taken over my shift, and I'd just started off from

21     the depot towards Bascarsija.  So it was the first one.

22        Q.   The previous shift was on duty, and there were no remarks or

23     comments made by them?

24        A.   No.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we zoom in, please?  Can we zoom

Page 645

 1     in a bit more?  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Now you can see here Marin Dvor and Skenderija.  Does that help

 3     you find your bearings?  Could you draw in the direction you were taking

 4     from the Zmaja od Bosne line.

 5        A.   Let me just take a moment to find it.

 6        Q.   Do we need to move the map?

 7        A.   May I just take a moment to find my bearings on this map.  I'm

 8     not very used to looking at maps.  Zmaja od Bosne, here we are.  Over

 9     here.  I can see the railway line.  It's difficult for me.  I can't find

10     my way around the streets.

11        Q.   Was the incident after Marin Dvor or before Marin Dvor?

12        A.   The incident took place before Marin Dvor.

13        Q.   Then we're going to ask the technicians to move --

14        A.   I can't see the S curve, the S bend where the incident took

15     place, but Marin Dvor is very close by here.

16        Q.   So the incident took place on the left-hand side?

17        A.   It was quite a bit before Marin Dvor, actually, and opposite the

18     Holiday Inn.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it be moved more to the right?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  And if I may, I know from proofing this morning

21     that the witness has a great deal of difficulty unless the font of

22     something she sees is very large.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  We'll zoom in, but I think ...

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't think you need these markings.  The

Page 646

 1     witness was trying to find her way.  So we can move the map and delete

 2     that.  Okay.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit more.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We can now see Cengic Vila.

 7        A.   Yes, that's the beginning of Zmaja od Bosne.  Now, a little to

 8     the left, and we get to the S curve or S bend.  On the opposite side,

 9     right.  Left.  Bear left.  Right.  Okay.

10        Q.   Would you like us to zoom in a bit more to enlarge this?

11        A.   Well, can I see the letters a bit better?  If we could have the

12     letters enlarged.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry.  I know that the S curve isn't yet --

14     that she's talking about isn't yet displayed on the map.  You need to

15     move a little bit further to the left.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To the left or to the right?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Sorry.  I've always had an issue that way, Your

18     Honour.  That way.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Move that way, please.  No, no, no.  The opposite

20     way.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Note -- Your Honour, if I may, that's -- now the S

22     curve should be on the map.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what?  I'm not quite clear

24     with this map because the Miljacka River can't be seen at all in that

25     area.  That's what I don't understand.  The railway line is over here,

Page 647

 1     but I can't really see the part where the shots came from because this is

 2     the part of town on the right-hand side and on the right-hand -- when

 3     you're on the right-hand side, you can't see the river at all.  You can

 4     see the Miljacka River from Skenderija.  That's when tram runs along the

 5     Miljacka River, from Skenderija onwards.  So up until Skenderija, the

 6     tram doesn't run along the river.  You can't see the Miljacka River.

 7     Kuljina Ban, that embankment, there are tracks there, and the river's

 8     there.

 9             Well, I can see the S bend if this is the tram-railway line from

10     Marin Dvor, but I think that it runs towards Cengic Vila.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   That's right.

13        A.   It's the left side.  It's the side which runs from Carsija to the

14     depot and not the side from the depot towards Carsija.

15        Q.   Just tell me:  The Zmaja od Bosne Street, the tram runs in both

16     directions there, does it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And as you've described the event, the event took place right

19     near the Holiday Inn hotel, right?

20        A.   Yes.  Along the route from Zmaja od Bosne and Franjo Ratko from

21     the direction of the Miljacka River, and then it runs towards Zmaja od

22     Bosne Street.  So it's between the national museum, Zemaljski Museum, and

23     then there's the Executive Council building and the university.

24        Q.   The "M" underneath where it says "Marin Dvor," is that the

25     national Zemaljski Museum?

Page 648

 1        A.   The national museum, Zemaljski Museum is not by Marin Dvor at

 2     all, but maybe it is.  You might be right.

 3        Q.   Never mind.  On this map where it says Zmaja od Bosne Street,

 4     just draw in the direction your tram was moving in.  I assume you can do

 5     that.

 6        A.   I can't because this is in the opposite direction.  It's leading

 7     from the Carsija, the centre of town, towards the depot.  I can't see the

 8     tracks leading from the depot towards Bascarsija.

 9        Q.   Can you see the Zmaja od Bosne Street, and if so, could you mark

10     in that street?

11        A.   Yes.  Here it is.

12        Q.   Now, draw an arrow in the direction your tram was moving.

13        A.   If this are -- if these are the tram tracks, then this would be

14     it, like this, and that's the bend.  But that -- well, that's not the

15     bend, actually.

16        Q.   Yes.  I understand.  Now, just an arrow to show the direction you

17     were moving in.  At the top of that line, just put in an arrow showing

18     the direction.

19        A.   [Marks]

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it's clear from

21     this map and that we can tender it into evidence and leave the witness

22     alone.  I think she's done the best she can, and I'm sure that on the

23     basis of her testimony and statement we'll be able to determine all the

24     different factors.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  The map 65 ter 4448 as

Page 649

 1     marked is admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit

 2     number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D3, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I'll now move on to the incident itself.  In the first statement

 7     you gave immediately after the event, you gave it in the Sarajevo police

 8     station, and you said today that you had certain corrections to make with

 9     respect to the casualties.  Now, you said at the time that you heard a

10     blunt blow hitting the back part of the tram.  Do you remember having

11     said that?  So -- but tell us, how did you know that the tram had been

12     hit?

13        A.   Well, I heard the blow.  I heard the hit.  And it wasn't at the

14     back of the tram, right at the back.  It's by the third door because

15     there's a space between the third door, and then there's the fourth door,

16     the fourth doors, and then the back of the tram.

17        Q.   Yes.  We'll look at the crime report with the photographs, so the

18     location is something we'll be able to see from that there, but I'm just

19     interested in the sound you heard.  You heard this sound, blunt blow in

20     the back of the tram, the back part.

21        A.   I just heard the sound of the shot, and then the passengers said

22     that the tram was hit, had been hit, was being shot at.

23        Q.   That's what I wanted to hear.  You heard this blunt sound of a

24     blunt blow.

25        A.   But the tram that was moving in front of me, this blunt sound hit

Page 650

 1     the cable above that tram.

 2        Q.   Did you see what direction it came from?

 3        A.   Well, I can't say, but we know where it came from.  It came from

 4     the right-hand side.

 5        Q.   [No interpretation]

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   And on the basis of the traces you saw in the tram, you made the

 8     conclusion that the bullet had come from that direction; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Tell me now, please, do you know that the BH army had the same

11     sniper rifles or similar sniper rifles as the army of Republika Srpska

12     did?

13        A.   No, I don't know that.

14        Q.   And tell me, please, how come you knew that it was Seselj's

15     Chetniks, as you said, that were shooting from those positions?  You said

16     that you knew that was the case between you heard that Seselj had come

17     visiting, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And in the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, you said that

20     not all Serbs were the same as far as you were concerned, that there were

21     differences between the Serbs, people who did things like that and others

22     who didn't; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

Page 651

 1     Honour, for this witness.

 2             Thank you, madam.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Any re-examination,

 5     Madam Edgerton?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  No.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             Thank you very much, ma'am.  That brings us to the end of your

 9     testimony.  Thank you very much for coming to testify at the Tribunal.

10     We hope you travel well back home.  You are now excused.  You may stand

11     down.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             MS. EDGERTON:  That concludes -- that's my business before Your

15     Honours today, and with your leave I'll take my leave, and I'll turn over

16     the floor to my colleague Mr. Cannata for the next witness.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You're granted leave to take

18     your leave, ma'am.  You're excused.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.  Turn over to -- thank you.

21             MR. CANNATA:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  If I might have your

22     indulgence, I will just switch the work station.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do, Mr. Cannata.  Then we will see you

24     better.

25             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 652

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm so sorry.  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Not at all, Your Honour.  Just a quick point of

 3     clarification prior to the next witness being called, if I might.

 4             I understand that the Prosecution intends to introduce a series

 5     of statements that this witness has made on a previous occasion with

 6     regard to their - as we're calling it for the moment - a 92 ter package.

 7     It is my understanding - which is why I'm asking for the point of

 8     clarification - it is my understanding that this witness is being called

 9     to testify about a particular scheduled incident, and if my understanding

10     is correct, nothing more and nothing less.  If that is the case, then I

11     may have some comments with regard to some information that is contained

12     in one of the statements because it does not pertain to the particular

13     scheduled incident upon which this witness has been called.  So that is

14     just a brief point of clarification so that I'm able to deal with the

15     evidence as it comes in.

16             The second thing is it -- and I don't know how the Chamber views

17     this.  When Ms. Edgerton was giving us the summaries, she said that it

18     was a summary of the evidence, and I had a little bit of a knot in my

19     stomach, just a slight one, because as I understand the summaries,

20     they're not evidence at all; but rather, they are a publication for the

21     public's purpose so they have an understanding of, in fact, what the

22     witness is generally testifying about, but they're not to be deemed to be

23     evidence, and any summary that comes in is not deemed as evidence.  I

24     just wanted to make sure I was correct about that too.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are absolutely correct, and that's how the

Page 653

 1     Trial Chamber will regard those summaries.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If she did say summary of the evidence, then she

 4     misspoke.  Thank you very much.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you sit down, speaking for myself, I do not

 7     understand the clarification you are seeking on the first point.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But if Mr. Cannata understood you, then I'll ask

10     him to respond.  Maybe I'll follow the clarification you seek if he does

11     respond.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

13             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, I'm quite sure I do understand the

14     clarification as sought by my learned friend, but I would like him to

15     clarify also.  So I will wait for him to clarify what's the point of --

16     at issue here, and then I give you my response, if you don't mind.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I understand you, then you are just in the dark

18     like I am.

19             What is your point?

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think as a matter of fact, he's not in the

21     dark.  He knows exactly what I'm talking about, but as -- as an advocate

22     he wishes -- he wishes for me to commit, which I don't mind doing at all.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  As I understand the testimony of this particular

25     witness, it deals with a Scheduled Incident A, and I believe that it's

Page 654

 1     number 6.  To the extent that the witness's first statement resolves

 2     around that information, I, of course, have no concerns.  To the extent

 3     that the Prosecution is relying on any other information concerning what

 4     could be deemed potentially an unscheduled incident, and by that I'm

 5     referring specifically to information as contained in paragraph 3 of the

 6     first witness statement, my question is:  Is the Prosecution relying on

 7     that particular information, which is an unscheduled incident, as I

 8     understand it, for this particular trial?

 9             I think I've committed about as much as I can, Mr. Cannata.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

11             MR. CANNATA:  The Prosecution acknowledges that there is a

12     Rule 72 bis decision outstanding, so the Prosecution decides not to lead

13     any evidence on the '93 incident that the Defence counsel has just

14     referred to, which is the one referred to at paragraph 3 of the first

15     statement.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Then I'm clear about what they're doing, and I'm

18     satisfied.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

20             May you call your witness, Mr. Cannata.

21             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, the Prosecution calls Witness Enes

22     Jasarevic.  With your leave, Your Honour, while the witness is brought

23     here, I give you a very short -- a brief summary of what I intend to do

24     with this witness.

25             Now, the witness is a 92 witness as anticipated by the Defence,

Page 655

 1     and he gave two statements to the OTP in March 1997 and May 2006 and also

 2     testified before this Tribunal in the Dragomir Milosevic case.

 3             With your leave, we will go through the 92 ter procedure and we

 4     will seek the admission of these two statements and the transcripts.

 5             Now, to complete the procedure, we will then -- actually, after

 6     the procedure is completed, we will then read for the public and the

 7     record a very short summary, a real short one this time.

 8             And finally, with your leave, we will seek to ask some additional

 9     questions, very limited, and I hope to contain my examination within the

10     30 minutes as scheduled before.  Thank you.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12                           WITNESS:  ENES JASAREVIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, sir.

15             May the witness please make the declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

19             Yes, Mr. Cannata.

20                           Examination by Mr. Cannata:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Jasarevic.  Good afternoon, Witness.  Could

22     you please state your full name, place, and date of birth for the record.

23        A.   My name is Enes Jasarevic.  I was born in 1958 in Sarajevo.

24        Q.   Sir, did you give two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor,

25     the first on 10 March 1997 and the second on 19 May 2006?

Page 656

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review these two statements in

 3     your own language before appearing today in court?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  I have had an opportunity to review them.

 5        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review the corrections,

 6     amendments, and clarifications that you made to your first statement on

 7     your second statement given to the OTP on 19 May 2006 in a language that

 8     you understand before coming here today?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's right.

10        Q.   Now, with the corrections to the first statement made on the

11     second statement given on 19 May in 2006, do you confirm that these

12     statements are true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and

13     belief?

14        A.   Yes.  With those corrections, yes.

15             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, at this point I would move these two

16     statements which are 65 ter 9270 and 9271 into evidence with your leave.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 9270, 9271 are admitted into evidence.  May

18     they be please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 09270 will become Exhibit P37, Your

20     Honours; and 65 ter 09271 will become Exhibit P38.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

22             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23        Q.   Mr. Jasarevic, did you testify in case Prosecutor versus Dragomir

24     Milosevic on 1st of March, 2007?  Do you remember that?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do remember it.

Page 657

 1        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review copy of your testimony in

 2     chief before this Tribunal in that case in a language you do understand?

 3     Did you?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5        Q.   Did you also have an opportunity to review the documents, namely

 6     maps and photographs, which were associated to the testimony in chief

 7     that you gave to this Tribunal in the Dragomir Milosevic case?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   Witness, do you confirm, then, that the evidence that you gave in

10     your testimony in chief and its associated exhibits are true and accurate

11     to the best of your knowledge and belief?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Do such evidence -- excuse me, Your Honours.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. CANNATA:

16        Q.   Do such evidence - that is, the transcript and its associated

17     exhibits - reflect your answers if you were to answer to the same

18     questions again today?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, at this point I would move the

21     transcripts and associated exhibits discussed into evidence, and for that

22     purpose with your leave I can provide you with a list of 65 ter numbers.

23             I will move into evidence 65 ter number 9277, which is the

24     transcript of Witness Jasarevic's testimony in Dragomir Milosevic case,

25     the highlighted parts which the Prosecution intends to rely upon.  Then

Page 658

 1     65 ter 9272 would be the street map Sarajevo as marked by the witness; 65

 2     ter 9273, again, an annotated map; 65 ter 3024.01, photograph; 3024.11,

 3     another photograph; 3024.2, another photograph; 3024.3, 3024.4, 3024. --

 4     actually, 05.  I have to make a correction.  I'm sorry.  After -- so the

 5     65 ter 3024.2 should be recorded as 3024.02.  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

 6     I'm getting confused with all this numbering.  And then 3024.3 should be

 7     recorded as 3024.03; 3024.4 should be transcribed as 3024.04; 3024.05,

 8     another photograph; 3024.06 - I'm coming to an end now with your

 9     indulgence - 3024.08; and 3024.09; and the last one would be 9275, which

10     is a street map again.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Cannata.  All those 65 ter

12     documents are admitted into evidence.  May they please be given an

13     exhibit number starting with 65 ter 9277.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 09277 will be Exhibit P39, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 09272 will become Exhibit P40.  65 ter

17     09273 will become Exhibit P41.  65 ter 03024.01 will become Exhibit P42.

18     65 ter 03024.11 will become P43.  65 ter 03024.02 will become Exhibit

19     P44.  65 ter 03024.03 will become Exhibit P45.  65 ter 03024.04 will

20     become Exhibit P46.  65 ter 03024.05 will become Exhibit P47.  65 ter

21     03024.06 will become Exhibit P48.  65 ter 03024.08 will become Exhibit

22     P49.  65 ter 03024.09 will become Exhibit P50.  And finally, 65 ter 09275

23     will become Exhibit P51, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

25             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, with your leave at this point I would

Page 659

 1     read out the summary.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

 3             MR. CANNATA:  Witness Enes Jasarevic has given evidence in

 4     respect of Scheduled Incident A6 of the indictment, that is the incident

 5     occurred on 24 May 1995 in Majdanska Street in Sarajevo when two

 6     civilians were killed and at least six, including the witness himself,

 7     were wounded by the explosion of a modified air bomb.

 8             During the period 1994 to 1995, the witness worked as an

 9     electrician for high-voltage power lines at the transformer station

10     located in Majdanska Street in the Novi Grad municipality of Sarajevo.

11     He testified that on 24 May 1995 at around 2.00 p.m., he and two of his

12     colleagues, Salko Slato and Prasko Sulejman, were hit by the explosion of

13     a bomb which impacted a pylon inside the compound of the transformer

14     station.  As a result of such explosion, Witness Jasarevic was wounded in

15     his arm and legs.  Salko Slato was slightly injured, and Prasko Sulejman

16     was killed.

17             The witness testified there were no military position anywhere

18     near the transformer station.  He also gave evidence that on 24 May 1995,

19     he did not notice any fighting or military activity or military personnel

20     in the vicinity of the transformer station.

21             That is the summary of evidence, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MR. CANNATA:  And I'm getting really close to the end of my

24     examination, and with your leave if I can ask a few -- really, a few

25     questions to clarify some matters in the previous statements.

Page 660

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, sir.

 2             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much.

 3             Madam Registrar, can we please have 65 ter 9245 on the screen,

 4     please.

 5             And while this is being uploaded, it's one of our Sarajevo maps

 6     contained in the court binder.  Now, as Your Honour and the parties are

 7     aware, such an exhibit -- such a 65 ter number is part of our sixth

 8     supplemental exhibit list, and a decision for that application is still

 9     pending.  So as I understand, this exhibit will be -- the Prosecution

10     will ask to mark for identification this exhibit.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which map in the book?

12             MR. CANNATA:  It's the -- the one -- give me one second, Your

13     Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Map 13.

15             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, Your Honour, correct.  That's page 13,

16     although I would ask Madam Registrar to zoom in -- actually, to zoom in a

17     little bit right towards the centre of the map.  Yes.  I think that would

18     be -- that should be enough.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you see the map?  Do you have a map on your

20     screen?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  I see it.

22        Q.   Do you see the transformer station you were working at on the 24

23     May 1995?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat his answer?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are asked to repeat your answer, sir.  The

Page 661

 1     witness -- the interpreters didn't hear you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said yes, I see it.

 3             MR. CANNATA:

 4        Q.   Can you please mark the transformer station with the marker that

 5     Madam Usher will provide you with and sign it with the letter "A"?

 6        A.   [Marks]  Is this all right?

 7        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.  How long have you worked at

 8     the transformer station in Majdanska Street, Mr. Jasarevic?

 9        A.   You mean during the war?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   A year and a half, something like that.

12        Q.   So are you familiar with the surroundings of the transformer

13     station?

14        A.   Yes, yes, quite familiar.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see -- do you recognise the big building

16     behind the transformer station?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're talking about the building immediately

18     behind or where there are so many buildings behind the transformer

19     station, Mr. Cannata?

20             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will

21     rephrase the question.

22        Q.   Do you see the TV building here in this map?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Can you please mark it with the letter "B."  Thank you.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 662

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Jasarevic.  Do you also see the municipality

 2     building in this map?  Do you?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Can you please mark it with the letter "C."

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see what seems to me a sort of light yellow

 7     building immediately in front of the transformer station?  Do you see

 8     that?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Can you please mark it with the letter "D."

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you happen to know, what is that building?

13        A.   It's a school, a primary school.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Jasarevic, do you also see next to the school

15     building a group of high-rise buildings?  Do you see them?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Can you please mark them with the letter "E."

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  What buildings are there?  What kind of

20     buildings are there?

21        A.   Residential buildings.  It's the Opacno [phoen] residential

22     estate.

23        Q.   Now, on the 24th May, 1995, was any of these building in the

24     vicinity of the transformer station at Majdanska Street which you marked

25     as letter "A"?  Was any of them a military facility?

Page 663

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I object on the grounds of leading.  I'm going to

 3     object on the grounds of leading.  He can describe what the buildings

 4     were.  It may well be outside of his knowledge, but ...

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata.

 6             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. CANNATA:  Sorry.  I might re-ask the same question for each

 9     of the buildings I asked the witness to mark, and I think that would be a

10     legitimate question to ask the witness whether, for instance, the

11     municipality building was a military target or a -- sorry, I'll rephrase.

12     A military facility.  That's, I think, within the allowed lines of

13     questioning.  Now, for the sake of time, I have, let's say, consolidated

14     a set of questions in just one question.  But if Your Honour prefers, I

15     can definitely go through --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

17             MR. CANNATA:  Let me rephrase the questions, Your Honour.

18        Q.   On the 24th of May, 1995, Mr. Jasarevic, have you noticed any

19     military personnel or military activity in the vicinity of the

20     transformer station at Majdanska Street?

21        A.   No, I did not notice any military units or any -- anything.

22             MR. CANNATA:  That concludes my examination-in-chief, Your

23     Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Cannata.

25             Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 664

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   I'd like to first of all ask you some -- can you not hear?

 5        A.   I can hear now, yes.

 6        Q.   I'd like to first of all ask you some questions concerning --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, your opposite number is on his

 9     feet.  Yes, Mr. Cannata.  You want to tender.

10             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, yes.  I really apologise for -- with all these

11     markings and questions, I forgot the most important thing.  The

12     Prosecution would like to then tender the marked map into evidence, and

13     I'm really sorry to my learned friend.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  The map as marked is

15     admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

16             MR. CANNATA:  Again, it would be a marked -- a

17     marked-for-identification document, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's marked for identification, yes, of course.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The map marked by the witness, Your Honours, will

20     become Exhibit P52 marked for identification.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22             Sorry about that, Mr. Guy-Smith.  You may proceed.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Not at all.

24        Q.   I'd like to ask you some questions about your statement, and by

25     that I'm referring to the first statement that you made, the statement

Page 665

 1     that you ultimately corrected, and that would be -- and we don't need to

 2     bring it up yet.  That would be Exhibit P37.

 3             What I'd like to know is this:  Could you explain to the Chamber

 4     how you went about making that statement?  And by that, I mean were you

 5     involved in an interview with some folks, and as they were talking to you

 6     they were writing down what you said and you confirmed it; or did you

 7     talk to them for a period of time and come back at a later point in time

 8     and they handed you a statement?  Could you tell us how the statement was

 9     created?

10        A.   I was invited to make a statement.  I said what had happened on

11     that day.  There were two people present, a man and a woman who was

12     interpreting.  I didn't write the statement then.  I was invited again,

13     but I really can't recall when that was.  And when I saw the statement,

14     some things were not the way I had told them, and that's it.

15        Q.   When you say when you saw the statement, I want to go back now,

16     and if we could -- if we could pull up Exhibit P37 because you said you

17     weren't sure when you -- you saw the statement or when you made the

18     statement.  I want to see whether this is of any help to you.  And if we

19     could just look at the -- I think it would be -- it would be the third

20     page of the statement.

21             Could we have the third page, please.  Thank you.

22             Do you recognise that signature as being your signature?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   Okay.  And the date that you made the statement, and by that I

25     mean the date you signed the statement was on the 10th of March, 1997,

Page 666

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Probably.  It was a long time ago.

 3        Q.   I understand.  It was a long time ago.  And at that point in

 4     time, before you -- before you signed the statement, you had an

 5     opportunity to take a look at it and go through it.  You were satisfied

 6     with it, I guess, because you signed it, right?

 7        A.   Well, I don't really remember this statement that well.  That's

 8     why I corrected it later on because it wasn't the way I -- well, it was

 9     not clear to me.

10        Q.   And when -- sorry, sir.  You were about to say something.  I

11     didn't mean to interrupt you.

12        A.   No, no.  It's all right.

13        Q.   So I take it that after you signed the statement in March of

14     1997, you didn't have any further contact with an investigator or member

15     of the Prosecution until 2006, some nine years later, right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And in 2006, at that point in time when you met with them, and I

18     think you met with them in May of 2006, at that point in time did they

19     give you your old statement, you looked at it and you went, "Wow, that

20     thing I signed nine years ago, there's some mistakes in it"?  Is that

21     what happened?

22        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  I said there were some things there

23     that I hadn't said in that way.

24        Q.   That you -- that you hadn't said in that way.  And when you --

25     back in 1997 when you -- when you made your statement and before you

Page 667

 1     signed it, did you get a chance to read your statement in your own

 2     language?

 3        A.   I don't remember whether I read it or not.  I really don't.  But

 4     there were certainly some things in it that weren't like that.

 5        Q.   Do you have any idea how they got there?  Since -- if you didn't

 6     say them, do you know how they got there?

 7        A.   Well, probably the young lady who was interpreting, she was the

 8     one writing it down.  Whether she was doing it properly, I don't know.

 9        Q.   I just want to stay for a moment with this statement in 1997,

10     which we know you've corrected.  At that point in time, which you've just

11     told us is perhaps she was writing things down, but before you signed the

12     statement, did somebody go through the statement with you, maybe not word

13     by word but certainly line by line or paragraph by paragraph to ensure

14     that the information contained in this --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata.

16             MR. CANNATA:  I think the same question has been asked, maybe on

17     the -- in different words, but the concept is clear.  It has been asked

18     to the witness.  Page 37, line 10:  "When you made your statement, and

19     before you signed it" - and I'm quoting - "did you get a chance to read

20     your statement in your own language?"  And the witness said, "I don't

21     remember."  I wonder whether there's any point in going through this same

22     question again.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might respond, Your Honour.  It's a slightly

24     different question by virtue of the witness's answer because from what I

25     understood his answer to be - and I had one question in this regard and

Page 668

 1     then I'm finished with this area - was that the statement was created, I

 2     guess by the person who was writing stuff down, and so I'm wondering

 3     whether or not he had a chance to just have somebody go through it line

 4     by line, and then I'm done in this area.  But if the Chamber's satisfied

 5     where we are, I'm satisfied.  Otherwise, it's just dealing with a

 6     different way.  As opposed to the internal reflection of looking at the

 7     statement, it would be the -- it would be the verbal contact between two

 8     people as they're reviewing the statement itself.  It's to make sure that

 9     the information contained therein would be accurate.  It would be one of

10     the ways that people go through an interview process.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The only question is that the witness says he

12     doesn't remember, but ask the question.  Let's find out whether that jogs

13     his memory.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:

15        Q.   Do you recall whether or not as you were going through the first

16     statement, did you have an opportunity to have somebody go through it

17     with you line by line or paragraph by paragraph so you could confirm,

18     deny, or modify the information that is contained within each of the

19     paragraphs before you signed it?  If you remember, great.  If you don't

20     remember, that's fine too.

21        A.   Believe me, I don't remember that somebody did that with me.

22        Q.   Between the time that you signed your first statement and the

23     time that you had second contact with the Office of the Prosecutor in

24     2006, did you have occasion to spend any time watching any of the

25     proceedings that occurred here at the Tribunal?

Page 669

 1        A.   You mean on television?

 2        Q.   Yeah.

 3        A.   Well, sometimes.  Occasionally by chance, but not regularly.

 4     Just the sort of bulletins.

 5        Q.   And before you testified in the previous case, did you have

 6     occasion to talk to anybody about bombs in general and your experience

 7     with them in specific apart from the statement that you made in 1997?

 8        A.   No.  I've had no experience with any bombs.  Who could I talk to?

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  My internal clock is getting somewhat better, and

11     I believe based on the Chamber's estimation now would be an appropriate

12     time for a break.  I think it's been an hour and a half.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are very right, Mr. Guy-Smith.  We'll take a

14     break and come back at half past 5.00.  Court adjourned.

15                           --- Recess taken at 5.01 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 5.30 p.m.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:

19        Q.   Could you please explain to the Chamber about what the function

20     is of a transformer like the one that you were at on May 24th, 1995?

21     What does a transformer do?

22        A.   Well, a transformer station uses power lines, long distance power

23     lines, and it's a 110-kilowatt energy voltage, high voltage, and then a

24     transformer reduces the level and provides the electricity for the

25     population.  So that would be its basic function.

Page 670

 1        Q.   In the city of Sarajevo, was there more than one transformer that

 2     was being used for the purpose that you've just said, which is to provide

 3     electricity during the time that you were working?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  There were several.  This particular one couldn't

 5     cover all the needs.  It was just for a part of town.  So, yes, there

 6     were others.

 7        Q.   Could you -- could you tell us how many transformers there were

 8     in the city of Sarajevo, if you know, during 1995?

 9        A.   You mean the ones that were operational?  There weren't any long

10     distance power lines for some areas, so they had to use cables and

11     things.

12        Q.   Yes, I do mean it as you've suggested, the ones that were

13     operational.  How many operational transformers were there?

14        A.   Well, mostly it was just one or two that were operational, and we

15     received high voltage electricity from them, and then this would be

16     relayed to the others through cables and so on, but it wasn't sufficient

17     to supply the entire city.

18        Q.   During the time that you were working on the power lines in 1995,

19     many times that you were working it was as a result of the power lines

20     being damaged or destroyed because of fighting between the various

21     armies, correct?

22        A.   Well, yes, because there was an interruption in the system due to

23     the war going on.

24        Q.   And on occasions, one of the targets that you had to repair in

25     your capacity as the repairman on the power lines was a targeted power

Page 671

 1     line or a pylon that one or the other of the warring factions had

 2     targeted for an attack, correct?

 3        A.   Well, not exactly.  Mostly one side because the other side, it

 4     wasn't in their interest to cut off the power supply because we'd have to

 5     repair it again.

 6        Q.   I see.  And the side who it wasn't in their interest to cut off

 7     the power supply, that would have been the Bosnian army, right?  They

 8     needed that power supply in order to -- in order to function, right?

 9        A.   Well, I wouldn't put it that way.  It was the citizens that

10     needed the power supply.  I don't know about the BH army, but the city

11     needed electricity and a power supply.

12        Q.   All right.  To your knowledge, was the BH army in the city itself

13     in 1995?

14        A.   Whether the army was in the city, is that what you're asking,

15     soldiers?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Well, I assume so.

18        Q.   And the army used the electricity that came from the transformers

19     that were in the city, right?

20        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know what electricity it used and

21     where the electricity went.  I'm just telling you how it was distributed,

22     with the cables.  Now, what it was used for, I didn't know that.

23        Q.   During the time that you were involved in repairing power lines

24     and I assume working on the transformer, also, did you ever have occasion

25     to go to an area where the Bosnian army was billeted and do any electric

Page 672

 1     repair in such an area?

 2        A.   No, we didn't repair things where the soldiers were, just where

 3     the break had occurred.  And there were pylons, power lines that were cut

 4     off, and you went there.  There were no soldiers there.  Well, I don't

 5     know.  Perhaps we were at some separation line at times, but not -- but

 6     not where UNPROFOR was.

 7        Q.   Not where UNPROFOR was.  Now, UNPROFOR on occasion, if I

 8     understood your previous testimony, would on occasion escort you to areas

 9     where there were broken lines; is that correct?

10        A.   Well, yes.  Yes, that's right, because otherwise we couldn't go

11     there.  We couldn't go there without them.

12        Q.   And --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Could it be made clear, Mr. Guy-Smith,

14     what broken lines -- what we mean by "broken lines"?  There's been a

15     separation -- a question of lines, separation --

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.  I'm sorry.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- and power lines.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand.

19        Q.   When we're talking about broken lines, I'm not referring to the

20     breaking of a front line in the military sense but, rather, a broken line

21     in terms of an electrical line, a power line, correct?  So when I use the

22     word "broken lines" - point well taken - we're discussing the -- a line

23     that moves energy from one part -- from one point to another point

24     through -- after having been modified through the transformer, right?

25        A.   Yes, yes, that's right.

Page 673

 1        Q.   Now, when there was -- when there was fighting going on, UNPROFOR

 2     would not escort you to an area where there may be the necessity of some

 3     repair, correct?

 4        A.   Could you repeat that question?  I didn't understand you.

 5        Q.   My apologies.  It was badly phrased.  Let me try again.

 6             When you were going to go repair an electric line, you were

 7     escorted by UNPROFOR, right?

 8        A.   That's right, yes.

 9        Q.   When there was fighting going on, then you did not go repair the

10     lines, the electric lines, because among other things, UNPROFOR did not

11     escort you to the area where you may do such repair, right?

12        A.   Well, yes.  That was mostly it.  They would inform us when they

13     were ready and when they could go or could not go.  We didn't know the

14     reasons, but they said we can't go and then we didn't go and do our

15     repair work.

16        Q.   And as a matter of fact, on May 24th, that was the day that you

17     were going to do some repair work, but you received information from

18     UNPROFOR that they would not be escorting you on that day, right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.  They would just say no mission, cancel it,

20     and that would be that.

21        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that in 1999, when NATO bombed

22     Belgrade, that one of its targets, one of its main targets were the

23     transformers in the city of Belgrade?

24        A.   No, I'm not aware of that, that that was the main target, no.

25        Q.   I'm sorry, not the main target, one of the main targets was the

Page 674

 1     transformers in the city, the same kinds of transformers that we've been

 2     talking about here today.

 3        A.   I don't know.  I'm not aware of transformers being their target.

 4        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that when NATO bombed Belgrade in 1999,

 5     transformers in the city of Belgrade were destroyed?

 6        A.   I don't know that either.  No, it's not something that I'm aware

 7     of.

 8        Q.   I thank you for your time, sir.

 9        A.   You're welcome.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before I turn it over to Mr. Cannata, can I

11     ask you:  Did you observe on any one occasion fighting going on in the

12     city of Sarajevo during that time?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't in a position to notice

14     whether there was fighting going on or not.  Even when I went to the area

15     where there was some combat, when I got there, there was a truce, so

16     there wasn't any.  No, not in town.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's understand the question.  I'm not asking you

18     whether you were in a position to notice.  I'm asking you, did you -- did

19     you observe any fighting at all in the city of Sarajevo during this

20     period that we're talking about?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  No, I didn't notice anything like

22     that.  I wasn't in that kind of situation.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata, any re-examination?

24             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, Your Honour.  With your leave, one question.

25     Let's say a couple of questions.

Page 675

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Cannata:

 2        Q.   Sir, you've been asked about how many transformer stations were

 3     operational in Sarajevo.  Do you remember that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   You said one or two.  Is that your answer?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Out of how many transformer stations are we talking about?  How

 8     many transformer stations were in Sarajevo?  Do you remember that?

 9        A.   Well, I remember -- let me just take a moment to count them if I

10     may.  About 16 or 17 were operational before the war, specifically in

11     Sarajevo, because each part of town, each larger district had to have 110

12     feeds to cover the area because one or two couldn't cover the entire

13     area.

14        Q.   Thank you.  So only one or two out of the 16 or 17 transformer

15     stations in Sarajevo were operational at the time which we are concerned

16     with, which is mainly 1995; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, because the others were not operational.  We received

18     electricity from just one direction.  So the others couldn't have been

19     functioning.

20        Q.   And why is that, sir?  Why only one or two transformer stations

21     were operational?

22        A.   Well, because Sarajevo doesn't have any energy source.  So it has

23     to receive the energy source from hydroelectric power plants or

24     thermoelectric power plants, and they need long distance power lines, and

25     all that was covered by the other side, so all you could get was what

Page 676

 1     they let you have, and that long-distance transmission line was the only

 2     one that was functioning properly.

 3        Q.   What do you mean by the other side?  Can you please be more

 4     specific?

 5        A.   Well, for example, let me explain it.  From the Kakanj

 6     thermoelectric power plant, there's no pylon or long distance

 7     transmission line leading to Sarajevo.  There's one in Vogosca and

 8     there's one in Blazuj and Raljevo, and the same transformer stations are

 9     then used to transmit electricity to us in town so that you could only

10     receive as much as they let through.

11        Q.   So your evidence is that the electricity in Sarajevo was mainly

12     based on what the city could receive from the surrounding hills, from the

13     outside of the city lying in the valley; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that is correct because we didn't have a power line that

15     would reach us.

16        Q.   Would the operations of just one or two transformer stations in

17     Sarajevo be sufficient to provide the whole city of Sarajevo with enough

18     electricity for daily survival?

19        A.   Well, no, not even close.  Let me tell you this way:  If I said

20     there were 16 or 17 of them that were usually needed for providing

21     consumers with electricity, then it's as if you had just one glass of

22     water to quench the thirst of ten people.  They could just have a little,

23     but you couldn't quench their thirst with just one glass of water.

24             MR. CANNATA:  No further questions, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Cannata.

Page 677

 1             Mr. Jasarevic, this brings us to the end of your testimony.

 2     Thank you very much for coming to the Tribunal to testify.  You are now

 3     excused.  You may stand down, and may you travel well back home.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

 7             MR. CANNATA:  May I be excused for one moment?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are excused for one moment only.

 9             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.  I'll be short.  Thank you very much.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see you're rising, Mr. Saxon.

11             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.  Your Honour, that is the last

12     witness whom the Prosecution was able to arrange to bring here this week.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This week.

14             MR. SAXON:  This week.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you don't have one tomorrow?

16             MR. SAXON:  Correct, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you will have one on Monday?

18             MR. SAXON:  Monday the 27th, Your Honour, of October, because we

19     understand that the next two weeks we have no -- no trial.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are very right.

21             MR. SAXON:  Okay.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are very right.

23             MR. SAXON:  However, Your Honours, I have one administrative

24     matter that I would like to raise with your leave.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

Page 678

 1             MR. SAXON:  May we move into private session for a moment, Your

 2     Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

Page 679

 1             Any other issues by way of housekeeping from any party?  None.

 2     That being the case, then the case stands adjourned to Monday, the 27th

 3     of October at 9.00 in the morning in courtroom 2.

 4             Court adjourned.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.52 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day

 7                           of October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.