Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 680

 1                           Monday, 27 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the

13     Prosecution, please.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon with my

15     colleagues, Salvatore Cannata, Carolyn Edgerton, and our case manager,

16     Carmela Javier.

17             MR. LUKIC [Interpretation]:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to everyone in the courtroom.  It is Novak Lukic appearing for

19     the accused Perisic with Mr. Guy-Smith and our case managers.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

21             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, the witness will be called and led by

22     Ms. Edgerton.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             Ms. Edgerton.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps we can have the witness brought in.  Thank

Page 681

 1     you very much.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated, ma'am.

 8     And good morning to you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you, too.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton.

11                           WITNESS:  SABINA SABANIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

14        Q.   Good morning, Witness.  I wonder if you could state your name for

15     the record.

16        A.   My name is Sabina Sabanic.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Your Honours, this witness will give evidence

18     today in respect of a sniping incident, scheduled sniping incident number

19     8 to the indictment.

20        Q.   Mrs. Sabanic, do you remember giving testimony in front of a

21     Trial Chamber of this Tribunal in February of last year, 2007?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In fact, it was in this courtroom, wasn't it?

24        A.   Yes, indeed.

25        Q.   Now, in preparing for your testimony today, did one of my

Page 682

 1     colleagues read back to you a copy of the transcript of your earlier

 2     testimony in 2007 in your own language?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So you understood everything you heard?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, also, preparing to testify today, did you have a chance to

 7     read copies of the two previous statements you gave to ICTY

 8     investigators; one in 1996 and one in 2006?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you also have an opportunity to look at copies of photos that

11     you had marked during the course of your previous testimony here in 2007?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, I understand, as a result of the review, you wanted to note

14     for the Trial Chamber, first, three small corrections to the transcript

15     of your evidence in the earlier proceedings; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps I could assist everyone by referring to

18     the specific page and line number.

19        Q.   And then you could confirm to me, if I understand your

20     corrections accurately.

21             First, on page 1461, line 18, the word "Batika," B-a-t-i-k-a,

22     should be changed to read "Otika."  Page 1465, line 14, the words "news

23     station" should be changed to read "next station."  And page 1469, line

24     17, the word "wall" should be changed to read "war."

25             Are those the corrections to the transcript you wish to make?

Page 683

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, I understand also that in respect of a photograph you were

 3     shown and marked during your earlier testimony, you wish to make a

 4     clarification for this Trial Chamber; is that so?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps I could have that photograph called up,

 7     please.  It should be 65 ter 07188.

 8        Q.   Do you see a photograph on the screen in front of you?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Is this the photograph that you wish to make a clarification in

11     respect of?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   What's the clarification you'd like to make today?

14        A.   This is the photograph that had been given to me to show where

15     the fire came from.  There are three skyscrapers here on the photo, but

16     in Sarajevo there are four.

17        Q.   Now, in respect of the three skyscrapers shown here on the photo,

18     those are the skyscrapers you marked as being representative of the

19     origin of fire in your previous testimony; is that correct?

20        A.   That's correct.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps I could have the witness shown a further

22     photograph, 65 ter number 8600, please.

23        Q.   Do you see this second photograph on the screen -- on the screen

24     in front of you?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 684

 1        Q.   Now, based on what you've just said in respect of four

 2     skyscrapers and not three, could I ask you this:  To your mind, is this

 3     an accurate photograph of the area you've described as being the origin

 4     of fire of the shot that hit you on 23 November 1994?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have the blank photograph, please, marked

 7     as an exhibit, then, Your Honours?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The blank photograph is admitted into evidence as

 9     an exhibit.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P100, Your Honours.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   Now, although I realise you marked a number of photographs during

13     your previous testimony, I'd like to ask you to take the pen on the

14     right-hand side of the monitor in your hand, and so that we're all clear

15     here today, perhaps you could mark, to the best of your recollection, the

16     location at which you were when you realised -- or, the tram you were

17     riding in was when you realised that you had been shot.  And perhaps you

18     could mark it with an X.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in your previous testimony, you indicated that

21     you were riding on the tram facing an area you called Grbavica at the

22     moment you were shot; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   Are all of these four skyscrapers in Grbavica?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 685

 1        Q.   To your knowledge, were all four of these skyscrapers, then, in

 2     Bosnian Serb-held territory on 23 November 1994?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, does this photograph and the clarification you've made today

 5     change your position in any regard with respect to the origin of fire of

 6     the shot that hit you?

 7        A.   No.  I don't change anything.

 8        Q.   Again, to further clarify, is your position that the shot came

 9     from any of the three skyscrapers that you marked earlier in your

10     testimony, or in your previous testimony, or any one of these four

11     skyscrapers?

12        A.   Any one of these four.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, apart from these corrections and clarifications,

14     if I asked you all the same questions today as you were asked during your

15     previous testimony, would you give the same answers?

16        A.   I would give the same answers.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  That being the case, Your Honours, I would move

18     this photograph, now marked, into evidence and the previous testimony and

19     exhibits marked by this witness in the Dragomir Milosevic case as

20     exhibits, please.  May I supply Your Honours with the 65 ter numbers?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The 65 ter numbers of what?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  The transcript of Mrs. Sabanic's previous

23     testimony, the statement --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, you may.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  I'll begin with the item I just

Page 686

 1     mentioned; 09295, being the transcript of her previous testimony in the

 2     Dragomir Milosevic case; 09289, being her ICTY statement from 1995;

 3     09290, being her ICTY statement from 2006; 092, pardon me, 92, being a

 4     photograph; 07187, being a photograph; 07188, which was the photograph

 5     that she referred to originally now in her testimony; 09293 and 09294,

 6     being the last two photographs.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Edgerton.  I've lost

 8     you at some stage when you said "pardon me."  I didn't think -- I don't

 9     think you finished the 0 -- the 65 ter number that you were pronouncing.

10     Was it 92 -- 092 what?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll just look at my transcript, Your Honour.

12     Sorry.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm looking at the transcript, actually.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  09292.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  09292.  And that was a photograph?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  So it goes 9295, being the transcript of her

17     testimony; 9289; 90; and 92; and then we move to 7187, 7188, 9293, and

18     9294.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  All those 65 ter numbers --

20     exhibits with those numbers are admitted into evidence.  May they please

21     be given an exhibit number, or exhibit numbers.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  The marked photograph 08600 will be Exhibit P101,

23     Your Honours.  65 ter 09295 will be Exhibit P102.  65 ter 09289 will be

24     Exhibit P103, Your Honours.  65 ter 09290 will become Exhibit P104.  65

25     ter 09292 will be Exhibit P105, Your Honours.  65 ter 07187 will be

Page 687

 1     Exhibit P106.  65 ter 07188 will become Exhibit P107.  65 ter 09293 will

 2     be Exhibit P108.  And 65 ter 09294 will be Exhibit P109, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             Madam Registrar, if you might, just for my own edification, what

 5     was Exhibit P100?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That was the unmarked photographed 08600, Your

 7     Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  08600?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  The photograph on the screen before it was marked

10     by the witness.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  And I thought you said now 8600 is P101?

12     Have we not duplicated something there?  When you started now, you said

13     8600 is P101.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  The unmarked 8600 is P100, Your Honour; the marked

16     8600 is P101.  Especially in -- when we're in e-court, I think it's

17     useful to have an unmarked photograph in there for later purposes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But she never marked the previous photograph in

19     this courtroom.  The previous photograph which had three skyscrapers had

20     markings from a previous testimony, and she never marked it.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  That's correct.  And I only tendered that one as

22     part of her 92 ter package.  That was 7188.  The previous photograph with

23     the three skyscrapers marked during the Dragomir Milosevic testimony was

24     7188.  The unmarked photograph with four skyscrapers, the full-on view,

25     was 8600, which we've now marked as P100.  The marked full-on four

Page 688

 1     skyscrapers with the X --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm with you.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We may proceed.  Thank you so much.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Very briefly, Your Honours, as has been the

 6     practice, I would now like to read a very short summary of the evidence

 7     that's now been admitted, Mrs. Sabanic's evidence.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  At about 4 p.m. on 23 November 1994, the witness

10     was riding a crowded tram in Sarajevo, standing facing the Serb army-held

11     area of Grbavica when she was injured by sniper-fire coming from

12     skyscrapers in Grbavica.  Shots were always coming from there.  The tram

13     is filled with civilians, mostly women.  It had been a peaceful, clear

14     day.  The trams didn't run every day, only on the days during cease-fires

15     when there was no shooting.  The witness saw no soldiers in the area at

16     the time she was shot, nor any combat between the two armies.

17             That being concluded, nothing further, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mrs. Sabanic, good morning.  My name is

22     Novak Lukic, and I appear for the Defence team of Momcilo Perisic.  I

23     will ask you a few questions.  You have experience here in the Tribunal.

24     You know that when we speak the same language, you have to make a slight

25     pause after each of my questions so that interpreters can keep up and

Page 689

 1     that we don't overlap.

 2             Mrs. Sabanic, throughout the war you lived in Sarajevo; correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   You said in your testimony and in your statement that this

 5     incident happened when you were going to work, or, rather, when you were

 6     coming home from work.  Did you work throughout the war?

 7        A.   I started to work in September 1994 and from then onwards,

 8     because of using sick-leave after the incident, I missed some time.  But

 9     normally I continued to work.

10        Q.   In fact, this incident happened about two months after you

11     started working.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   From what I understood, your job was somewhere in the centre of

14     town.  Could you tell us more precisely where you worked?  I don't need

15     the address, but ...

16        A.   I worked in Titova Street, near the eternal flame monument.

17        Q.   In your second statement given to the OTP you stated in paragraph

18     6, in rather great detail, that on several occasions during the war in

19     Sarajevo you changed your place of residence.  I'll go through it very

20     quickly and you'll just confirm if it's correct.

21             You said that before the war you lived in Dobrinja neighbourhood.

22     Then you moved to Fojnica.  That's probably when the war started;

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.  That was March/April 1992.

25        Q.   Then you returned to Sarajevo, and then you lived in Kosevo for a

Page 690

 1     while; correct?

 2        A.   On Kosevo hill, correct.

 3        Q.   Then you lived in Skerliceva Street, probably until September

 4     1994; correct?

 5        A.   I believe I moved to Skerliceva in June 1994, maybe July.

 6        Q.   And then you moved to Buca Potok, and you said the living

 7     conditions were better there but it was more difficult to get to work,

 8     and that was at the time when you were wounded you lived in that

 9     location.

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   When did you move to this street, Cobanija?

12        A.   I believe it was in 1996.

13        Q.   You were probably aware, Mrs. Sabanic - you changed addresses

14     very often - you were probably aware that there were a lot of abandoned

15     apartments in Sarajevo during the war.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You were also probably aware that there were many abandoned

18     apartments formerly belonging to JNA officers and JNA personnel and civil

19     servants who had left Sarajevo before the war.

20        A.   All I can say is that I never used any of these apartments.

21        Q.   That was not my question.  My question was:  Had you heard that

22     there were such abandoned apartments?

23        A.   Yes, I had.

24        Q.   Tell me, during the war, what was the source of your information

25     about events and developments in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo?

Page 691

 1        A.   Well, to the extent that we had electricity, we could get

 2     information from the news bulletin on the TV in the evening and from all

 3     the other media.

 4        Q.   And when you were unable to watch or listen to the media, I

 5     assume you received information from the people around you; is that

 6     right?

 7        A.   There were also newspapers.

 8        Q.   They were published in Sarajevo, and you were able to get

 9     newspapers regularly and get information from those?

10        A.   Yes.  The newspaper Oslobodjenje came out regularly.

11        Q.   I'll put a few general questions to you to see whether you have

12     any knowledge concerning these issues.

13             In your environment, did you have anyone who was actively

14     involved in the military structures of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15     either at work, among our colleagues, or in your family, among your

16     neighbours, your extended family, and so on?

17        A.   Could you explain what you mean by "military structures," please.

18        Q.   Quite simply, a person who was a member of the Army of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you hear or were you aware that both sides, and when I say

22     "both sides," I mean the Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina, had sniper weapons and mortars?

24        A.   I was a civilian and what I experienced on my own skin I know

25     came from the Serbian side.  They were shooting at our civilians.

Page 692

 1        Q.   But my question was very precise.  We'll come to the incident.

 2     My simple question was:  Were you aware that both sides, to be precise

 3     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, also had snipers and mortars?  Do you

 4     know that?

 5        A.   No, I don't know that.

 6        Q.   Would you agree with me that Sarajevo, in the course of the

 7     conflict, was a divided city; that the river Miljacka divided two

 8     territories, one side controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

 9     the other by the Army of Republika Srpska?

10        A.   Unfortunately, yes.

11        Q.   You were able to get information from the media and from people

12     you knew were in the BH Army, so did you know that there were between 30

13     and 40.000 members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo during

14     the war?

15        A.   Believe me, I don't know that.

16        Q.   And are you aware that between 1994 and 1995, in that period, a

17     considerable quantity of weapons were delivered to the Army of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina from outside and that that army became much better

19     armed and better equipped?

20        A.   I'm not aware of that either.

21        Q.   Are you aware that both sides, and by that I mean the Army of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Army of Republika Srpska, violated the

23     cease-fires in the course of the war and that both sides were cautioned

24     by UNPROFOR for that reason?

25        A.   Believe me, I know only about one side and that's the Serbian

Page 693

 1     side, because I experienced it myself.  I felt it on my own skin.

 2        Q.   So you don't know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina violated

 3     cease-fires?  You don't know that?

 4        A.   No, I don't know that.

 5        Q.   You said in your statements and in your testimony in the

 6     Milosevic case, and you also confirmed today, that it was common

 7     knowledge in Sarajevo that these three or four skyscrapers were positions

 8     from which members of the Army of Republika Srpska fired sniper shots; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You also said that this line of fire passed through the buildings

12     of two museums and that this was the most dangerous part of the route you

13     took, and that after that it was a little safer.  Did I understand your

14     testimony correctly?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct, too.

16        Q.   In your testimony in the Milosevic case, Dragomir Milosevic, on

17     page 1469 -- sorry, no, I was right, 1469, you stated that you had never

18     held a weapon in your hands.  Do you remember saying that?

19        A.   Yes, I do remember.

20        Q.   And on the same page, when asked by Their Honours, you said you

21     didn't know from what position it was easier to fire for the person doing

22     the firing.

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you give us a reference for that, Mr. Lukic?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 1469, from line 15 to line 25.

Page 694

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mrs. Sabanic, in the course of your testimony, when expressly

 4     asked by Their Honours, you stated that you assumed the shot was fired

 5     from those skyscrapers because that was the side the bullets came from,

 6     and in your view it was common knowledge that these were sniper nests, so

 7     to speak, on those skyscrapers held by the Serbian army.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat her answer?  It was

 9     very feint.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, yes, Madam Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Please excuse me for the intervention.  The

12     interpreters are having a bit of trouble hearing Mrs. Sabanic, I think

13     because you're leaning a bit back in the chair, and they asked her to

14     repeat the last answer because it wasn't interpreted.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you please repeat your last answer, madam.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you remember what I asked you?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   That you stated at the time that you assumed that the shots came

20     from that direction because it was common knowledge that snipers were

21     firing from that location.  That's what you said.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Were you aware that there were also positions of the Army of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina on that side, before the river Miljacka?

25        A.   No.  No, I wasn't aware of that.

Page 695

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry to do this to you, Mr. Lukic.  Your

 2     question at line 18, you say that "You stated at the time that you

 3     assumed that the shots came from that direction because it was common

 4     knowledge that snipers were firing from that location."  When you say

 5     "stated at that time," are you talking about -- are you referring to the

 6     Milosevic testimony, or what are you referring to?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to both.  I put to

 8     the witness what she stated during her testimony in the Milosevic case,

 9     at that time, but in that testimony she stated that at the time of the

10     incident it was common knowledge that that was a location where there

11     were Serb forces who were opening sniper fire.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you please give us the reference in the

13     Milosevic transcript where that has been said, where the assumption has

14     been mentioned and where the common knowledge has been mentioned.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.  Excuse me.

16             Judge Robinson put his question ...

17             MS. EDGERTON:  If it assists at all, I can find two page

18     references, but I don't see the word "assumed" anywhere.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you don't --

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps my friend could look at page 1454 and the

21     continuation of the answer at 1455.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No.  Please excuse me for a moment.

23     Page 1475.  Just a moment.  Page 1475 and 1476.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Line reference at 1475?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] From line 9 to the end of the page

Page 696

 1     and then at the top of page 1476.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic, to say "from line 9 to the

 3     end of the page," I just want to see the line where the words "assumed"

 4     and "common knowledge" are found.  Just give me the specific line,

 5     because now we're wasting time reading the whole page.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't wish to waste time either,

 7     Your Honours.  I put my question in the way I did, but I think that the

 8     witness's reply is in the same -- is to the same effect, and I think that

 9     even the Prosecution stated that in their summary.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, you're going to have to give me where they

11     say so in their summary.  I'm afraid, Mr. Lukic, if you are not able to

12     refer us to any reference, I'll ask you to rephrase those questions.  The

13     statement of common knowledge and assumption, if you cannot give us any

14     reference, would have to be expunged.  You would have to rephrase that

15     question, please.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can put the question

17     without referring to the transcript.

18        Q.   Was it common knowledge in Sarajevo at the time that shots were

19     fired from those skyscrapers by members of the Army of Republika Srpska?

20        A.   That stretch of road where I was wounded was the riskiest, the

21     most dangerous.

22        Q.   And what you were aware of as a passenger on that tram running on

23     that line, is that people said or you heard from the media that members

24     of the Army of Republika Srpska were firing sniper shots in that

25     direction; is that right?

Page 697

 1        A.   It wasn't just people saying that.  It was that there was the

 2     largest number of people who were wounded.  People who were wounded were

 3     mostly wounded on that stretch of road.

 4        Q.   And in connection with those incidents, the information that was

 5     given out was always --

 6        A.   Yes, because that was the place where people were killed or

 7     wounded most often, on that stretch of road.

 8        Q.   You certainly knew that there were also highrise buildings in

 9     areas controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you stated that

10     when answering questions in the last testimony you gave at this trial,

11     the Energoinvest building, the Unis building, the Marsal Tito barracks,

12     the museums, and so on; is that right?  They were on the territory

13     controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   In the course of my last testimony, I was given pictures where I

15     was supposed to indicate those buildings, the museums, the buildings at

16     Pofalici.  I didn't know why I had to indicate them.  I only had to

17     indicate them and mark them.

18        Q.   That's on the record.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   But the buildings I have just mentioned, they were on the

21     territory held --

22        A.   Yes, they were on the other side of the Miljacka, on the other

23     bank.

24        Q.   And are you aware that the area of Grbavica was also shelled and

25     that sniper shots were fired also in that period but from the other side?

Page 698

 1     Did you have any information to that effect?

 2        A.   No, we did not have that information.

 3        Q.   All right.  I'd like to discuss the incident itself, then.

 4             A moment ago you were drawing a picture, and I suppose the Trial

 5     Chamber understands you were going from town, from the centre of town,

 6     and the Miljacka river was on your right.

 7        A.   No, it was opposite me.

 8        Q.   All right, opposite.

 9             You said it was the last run of the tram for that day.  The tram

10     stopped working at 4 p.m.  I need an answer.  A nod of the head is not

11     sufficient.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Tell me, how long had you been in the tram from the time when you

14     got into the tram until the moment you were wounded?  How many stops,

15     let's say, or minutes?

16        A.   I cannot tell you how many minutes because it was the last tram

17     for the day.  You can never say exactly how many passengers are getting

18     on and off.  It took longer perhaps than a tram would normally take

19     today.

20        Q.   But we, in the courtroom, we don't know how long it takes from

21     the centre of town to the Marsal Tito barracks.  When you got in, was the

22     tram already full?  Do you remember that?

23        A.   Yes, I do.  It was packed, because that stop was -- the tram goes

24     in a circular line in Sarajevo, so people get in at any stop.  Some

25     people use the tram just to go one stop further so that they wouldn't

Page 699

 1     walk because it was dangerous.  And it probably ran twice as slowly as it

 2     does today.

 3        Q.   You said the tram was packed.  Were you able to move through the

 4     tram, or did you have to stop at the end of the car where you got in?

 5     And that's something I seem to have read in your statement.

 6        A.   I couldn't move through the tram.  As I got in through the door,

 7     I stopped there.  I didn't move from one section of the tram to another.

 8     It was really very crowded and you couldn't move.

 9        Q.   I'm asking you this because you said in your statement that there

10     were no members of the army in the tram, and I suppose you can't say that

11     with a hundred per cent certainty because you were not able to move

12     through the crowded tram.  You could see there were no members of the BH

13     army around you, but you couldn't say that there weren't any in the tram,

14     I suppose.

15        A.   Yes.  But when we stopped, we all had to get out, so I could see

16     all the people who had been on that tram.

17        Q.   In the criminal report it says that there were around 200 people

18     in the tram.

19        A.   Well, I don't know about that, but there were many of us.

20        Q.   On page 1476 of your testimony, you said you hadn't heard a shot;

21     you just felt pain at that moment.

22        A.   Correct.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honours.

24        Q.   You also stated on page 1454 that you suppose the shot had come

25     from one of those three skyscrapers that you called "shopping" --

Page 700

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we have the reference, please.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1454.  Just a moment.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What line?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The question of the Chamber is line

 5     24 and the answer is in line 25.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my case it wasn't from the

 8     shopping buildings.  It's a bit further at Grbavica.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You mentioned in one statement that it was that area that fire

11     came from.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  And, if I may --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  The question at line -- page 20, line 23, says

15     that "at page 1454 of the transcript" the witness "supposed the shot had

16     come from one of those three skyscrapers that you called 'shopping,'"

17     and, in fact, she makes no reference to that name for the skyscrapers in

18     those pages of the transcript.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll be precise, Your Honours.

21             Her first statement, which is now Exhibit P103, paragraph 10, I

22     quote from the B/C/S version:  "I knew that on the tram line there were

23     places that were more dangerous than others because there had been other

24     cases of sniping on the trams."  In B/C/S -- sorry.  "On the Serb side of

25     the conflict line in Grbavica, in the neighbourhood we called 'shopping,'

Page 701

 1     there are three skyscrapers.  This is a place from which fire can be

 2     opened on the trams."

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a location.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mrs. Sabanic, let me ask you this:  At any point after this

 6     incident and before your testimony and before or after giving a statement

 7     to the OTP, had you been in contact with any person from the Agency for

 8     Investigation and Documentation or the Security Service of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   You mean after the testimony?

11        Q.   No, I mean before.

12        A.   I didn't directly talk to anyone after the -- about the case.

13        Q.   And why did they contact you, if I may know?

14        A.   They contacted me once to take me to Nedzarici so that I could

15     give a statement.

16        Q.   I suppose the OTP office was in Nedzarici.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you ever have occasion before your testimony in the Milosevic

19     case to be shown the criminal report and the record of that incident, the

20     police record?

21        A.   No.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which incident are we talking about?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I mean now the incident where the

24     witness was wounded on the 23rd of November, 1994.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

Page 702

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Does the name Buco Kemal mean anything to you?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   How about the name Hafiza Karadzic?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Do you recall when the OTP interviewed you the first or the

 7     second time, because there were two interviews and also the proofing in

 8     the Milosevic case, did anyone from the OTP show you any kind of

 9     document, any kind of official document, related to this incident so that

10     you can give your comments?  I mean the incident when you were wounded.

11     Apart from sketches and photographs.  That is not of interest to me.

12        A.   Nothing apart from my statements that I was asked to confirm.

13        Q.   In your first statement, which is now P103, you stated in

14     paragraph 4 - and that's how it is recorded in the statement - I quote:

15     "The first thing I heard was the glass shattering."  That was recorded in

16     the statement.  And at the trial in the Milosevic case you said that was

17     not properly recorded, that you, in fact, had not heard the glass

18     shattering.  Is that correct?

19        A.   After I gave a statement and after the first reading back of the

20     statement to me, I immediately corrected that.  I said I never heard the

21     glass being smashed, and it must be some sort of error that keeps

22     dragging on from the very beginning.  But I had corrected it.

23        Q.   When did you correct it?

24        A.   When I was asked to sign the statement after I first gave it, I

25     stated plainly that, in fact, I hadn't heard the glass being smashed or

Page 703

 1     anything like that.

 2        Q.   When you were giving your second statement, which is now Exhibit

 3     P104, a statement given on the 22nd of May, 2006, your original statement

 4     was shown to you, and it still contained the phrase I just read.  You

 5     made certain corrections to paragraph 2 of that statement, but you had no

 6     comment on the paragraph 4.  It continued to read:  "The first thing I

 7     heard was the glass being smashed."  Do you have any comment?

 8        A.   My comment on that is that, since I said the first time it needs

 9     to be corrected, it was superfluous to say anything further about that

10     glass because I said when giving the first statement that, in fact, I

11     hadn't heard any such thing.

12        Q.   I don't want to dwell on this too much, but after so many years

13     you saw that sentence still there and you didn't ask for it to be

14     corrected.

15        A.   In the Milosevic trial there was also discussion about that glass

16     and I said once again that I hadn't heard anything and that I had

17     corrected the first statement to that effect.

18        Q.   On page 1484 of the Milosevic transcript, you said that once in

19     the hospital you heard another man had been killed in that incident.  Do

20     you remember what you said and how it was recorded?  If I tell you now

21     that the Office of the Prosecutor, in its indictment, does not mention

22     any other deaths in the incident, would you say that the information you

23     received was inaccurate?

24        A.   The lady who lay with me in the same room, in the same ward, had

25     been on the same tram with her husband, and her husband was killed.

Page 704

 1        Q.   And you know that the lady next to you was injured?

 2        A.   Yes.  We were there together.

 3        Q.   All right.  And in conclusion I will have just one more question.

 4     You said in your first statement given back in November 1995,

 5     paragraph 9, you said:  "I won't take the tram anymore until peace it

 6     restored."  Do you remember saying that?

 7        A.   No, I don't remember saying that, but it seems to me a normal

 8     reaction at the time.

 9        Q.   I'll read it back to you.  I quote:  "From that day on I'll no

10     longer ride the tram as long as the peace is not restored."  When did

11     that occur, in fact?

12        A.   I think we felt safer only after the Dayton Accords.

13        Q.   It's September 1996.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, any re-examination?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Just one question, again to be absolutely clear on

19     something.

20                           Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

21        Q.   Mrs. Sabanic, at page 21, line 11, of the transcript of the

22     testimony today, you referred to other locations, and I'll quote exactly,

23     you referred -- you stated that "on the tram line, there were places that

24     were more dangerous than others because there had been other cases of

25     sniping on trams."  Sorry, I'm quoting Mr. Lukic now, pardon me.  "In the

Page 705

 1     neighbourhood we called 'shopping,' there are three skyscrapers.  This is

 2     a place from which fire can be opened on the trams."

 3             Just to be absolutely clear, are those four buildings you

 4     identified as the source of the gun-fire from which you were injured the

 5     development called "shopping"?

 6        A.   There's four buildings, but the "shopping" project is a bit

 7     further away.  But in our colloquial exchanges, everyday exchanges, we

 8     used the name "shopping" to refer to that entire area of Grbavica.

 9        Q.   In -- is the physical appearance of the development called

10     "shopping" different in any way from the four skyscrapers you identified

11     as being the source of fire?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   How?

14        A.   "Shopping" has three skyscrapers, and the other development has

15     four.

16        Q.   What colour are the skyscrapers of the "shopping" development?

17        A.   I think -- I really can't remember now.  I think they are yellow.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't have any other questions, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Edgerton.

21             Judge?  Judge, questions?  Any questions for the witness?  Thank

22     you.

23             Thank you, ma'am.  That brings us to the end of your testimony.

24     On behalf of the Tribunal, I want just to say thank you for coming and

25     taking time to come and testify.  You are now excused and you may stand

Page 706

 1     down.  And please travel well back home.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will call the next witness,

 6     but I note the time.  Would this be the proper time for the first break,

 7     or would you rather have the witness?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We've got about 4 minutes to go before the break

 9     is due.  Mr. Cannata, would you rather we took the break now?

10             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, if you can give me a couple of minutes

11     to switch the work station with my colleague Ms. Edgerton.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are welcome to do that.  Please do that.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you now better able to answer my question,

15     Mr. Cannata?  Okay.  You proceed.

16             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, sorry, it took a little bit longer

17     than you expected.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I asked the question, would you rather we took the

19     break now or -- oh, I realise you want to proceed, but we've got now 2

20     minutes to go before break.

21             MR. CANNATA:  Okay.  My apologies, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.  We'll swear the witness, and

23     we'll have to take the break after that, maybe.

24             MR. CANNATA:  Actually, I had an issue to raise before the

25     witness was to be brought here, but I can actually do it now.

Page 707

 1             Madam Witness has some difficulties in reading and writing.  I

 2     would therefore ask permission by Your Honours to have the declaration

 3     read out to her, if it's not a problem.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It won't be a problem at all.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Usher, would you please read the declaration

 7     to the witness and then having read -- first of all, ask her whether she

 8     accepts that.

 9             I know you don't read B/C/S.  Maybe if you read it in English and

10     we can ask the interpreters to interpret it for the witness.

11             THE USHER:  I solemnly declare.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

13             THE USHER:  That I will speak the truth.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

15             THE USHER:  The whole truth.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

17             THE USHER:  And nothing but the truth.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20                           WITNESS:  DERVISA SELMANOVIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, ma'am.  You may be seated.  Thank

23     you so much.  Good morning to you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

Page 708

 1             What do you want to do, Mr. Cannata?

 2             MR. CANNATA:  Shall we go for the break?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I think we must apologise to the witness

 4     for bringing her in just to take her out again.  Our apologies, ma'am.

 5     It is time for a break.  We'll take a break and come back at a quarter to

 6     11.00 when we'll resume.  Thank you very much.

 7             Court adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

11             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The Prosecution calls

12     Witness Dervisa Selmanovic.  Your Honour, this is a 92 ter witness, so

13     we'll go through the procedure.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

15                           Examination by Mr. Cannata:

16        Q.   Good morning, Madam Witness.  How do you feel today?

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Madam Witness, could you please state your full name for the

19     record.

20        A.   Dervisa Selmanovic.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             Madam Witness, I do understand that you have some difficulties in

23     reading and writing; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   But I guess -- I take it that you can write your signature, or at

Page 709

 1     least the initials of your full name; is that correct?

 2        A.   I can write my first and last name.  I know how to do that.  It's

 3     not really done very well, but there it is.

 4        Q.   That should be enough.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  Can I please have 65 ter 9296 on the e-court,

 6     please, the English version.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Madam Witness, do you see a document in front of you on your

 8     screen?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Can you see your full name, your signature, at the bottom of this

11     document?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Do you remember that -- whether yesterday this document was read

14     out to you in a language you understand?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, do you confirm that what you say in this document is true

17     and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

18        A.   Yes.  It's all true and correct, what I said.  Yes.

19        Q.   You will give the same answers, you will say the same things

20     today if asked the same questions?

21        A.   Yes, the same.  I would answer in the same way.

22        Q.   Very well.

23             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, may we have this document entered into

24     evidence, it's 65 ter 9296, the first statement by Madam Dervisa

25     Selmanovic, dated 27 February 1996.

Page 710

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 9296 is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P110, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             Can I have please have 65 ter 9297 on the screen now.

 7        Q.   Madam Witness, do you see a document on your screen?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not yet.

 9             MR. CANNATA:  Oh, pardon me.  It should be there.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

11             MR. CANNATA:

12        Q.   At the top -- at the bottom of the page, do you see your

13     signature?

14        A.   Yes, I do.  Yes.

15        Q.   Do you remember whether this document was read back to you

16     yesterday in a language you understand?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, do you confirm that this document -- that what you say in

19     this document is true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

20        A.   It's true and accurate, yes.

21        Q.   And also that you will give the same answers today if asked the

22     same questions?

23        A.   I would give the same answers today, yes.

24        Q.   Thank you very much, Madam Witness.

25             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, can I have 65 ter 9297 moved into

Page 711

 1     evidence, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted.  May it please be given an

 3     exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P111, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 6             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Madam Witness, do you remember that you testified before in this

 8     Tribunal in a different case?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  Yes.

10        Q.   And you testified in the case, the Prosecution versus

11     Dragomir Milosevic.  Do you remember that?

12        A.   I remember that.

13        Q.   Was a copy -- a copy of the transcripts of your testimony in the

14     case, Prosecution versus -- Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic, read

15     out to you yesterday in a language you understand?

16        A.   Yes, it was.

17        Q.   Did you also have an opportunity to review the exhibits

18     associated with that document, that is, the photograph and the video that

19     you would have viewed yesterday?  Did you review it?

20        A.   They read it to me, what was in there, and what they asked me

21     about I testified to.  And I read it, yes.

22        Q.   Do you confirm that what you said in the Prosecutor -- in the

23     case against Dragomir Milosevic was true and accurate, to the best of

24     your knowledge?

25        A.   Yes.  It was true and accurate.

Page 712

 1        Q.   Would you give the same answers today if asked the same

 2     questions?

 3        A.   I would give the same answers today I gave then.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Thank you, Madam Witness.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, at this time I would like to move

 6     into evidence the transcripts and associated exhibits of

 7     Madam Selmanovic's previous testimony in the Prosecutor versus

 8     Dragomir Milosevic case.  I will provide you with the 65 ter numbers;

 9     that is, 9299 is the transcript; 8615, 1-5, is the photo, the 360

10     panoramic photo attached to the transcript; and lastly, 65 ter 4333 is

11     the video concerning this witness incident at the timing 00:42:17 to

12     00:43:16.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those 65 ter documents are admitted into evidence.

14     May they please be given exhibit numbers.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 09299 will be Exhibit P112.  65 ter 08615

16     will be Exhibit P113.  And 65 ter 04333 will be Exhibit P114, Your

17     Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, with your leave, at this stage I will

20     read a short summary of Witness Selmanovic's evidence.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

22             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.

23             Witness Dervisa Selmanovic has given evidence in respect of

24     scheduled incident B9 of the indictment, that is, the incident that

25     occurred on 10 December 1994, when Witness Selmanovic was shot and

Page 713

 1     injured while collecting firewood in the backyard of a house located in

 2     Sedrenik Street number 56 in the north-east of Sarajevo.  The witness

 3     testified that the shots came from Spicaste Stijena as held by the SRK,

 4     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  The witness received wounds on her right

 5     knee and was treated at the orthopedic clinic of the Medical Centre of

 6     the University of Sarajevo.  The witness testified that there were no

 7     military position anywhere near the area where she was shot.  She did not

 8     notice any fighting or military activity or military personnel at the

 9     time and in the vicinity of the area she was shot.

10             This concludes my examination-in-chief, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I did not

14     wish to interrupt my learned friend, but I have an objection in

15     principle.  When statements -- when the statements were shown to the

16     witness, the Prosecutor said, Would you confirm all the questions and

17     answers in the statement, but we see only answers in the statement, not

18     the questions.  I assume that's a mistake, so I just wanted to mention

19     that.  The questions are there only on the transcripts.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mrs. Selmanovic, good morning.  My name is

22     Novak Lukic, and I appear on behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Perisic.

23     I will put some questions to you on his behalf.

24             Do you remember that in connection with the incident that took

25     place on the 10th of December, 1994, as mentioned in the indictment, you

Page 714

 1     gave your first statement concerning this incident to the police in

 2     Sarajevo, to Inspector Djozo Nedzib in March 1995, on the 12th of March,

 3     1995, that is.

 4        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 5        Q.   Do you remember, since you stated that immediately after you were

 6     wounded you were released from hospital and sent home practically on the

 7     same day, did anyone from the police visit you from the time you were

 8     wounded to the time you made this first statement?

 9        A.   I can't remember that now because it was a long time ago.  A lot

10     of years have passed since then.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

12             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, I would say that I would kindly ask

13     the Chamber to direct my learned friend to give reference to passages of

14     statements and transcripts when quoted, and I refer back to you at

15     page 35, line 1, when the Defence asked, "... since you stated that

16     immediately after ..." and then goes on.  I would like to have a

17     reference for that quote of the witness's evidence.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness mentioned this in

20     more than one place in her statement, but just a moment.

21        Q.   Madam, were you released from hospital on the same day, after the

22     incident?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, they released me.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honours, and then

25     I'll come to that in order to avoid wasting time.  The witness has

Page 715

 1     replied now to that question.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, that's true.  But whenever you put a previous

 3     statement by the witness to her, we would like you to give a reference.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Yes, Your Honour,

 5     I understand.  I will adhere strictly to your instructions in future when

 6     I put anything to a witness.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  But do come back to this one that the

 8     Prosecutor has raised, an issue here that he would like to get --

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour, yes.  I will,

10     certainly.  I think I will come to the reference as I proceed with my

11     questions, but if I don't, I will certainly come back to it at the end.

12        Q.   You gave your first statement to the OTP on the 27th of February,

13     1996.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you told them at the time or, rather, you attached the record

16     of the statement made at the police station on the 12th of March, 1995.

17     Do you remember that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   When you made your second statement, the one you gave to the

20     investigators of the OTP, your second statement to the OTP was given in

21     April 1996, and you were given the opportunity of reading all your

22     previous statements, the previous statement given to the Prosecution and

23     the one given to the police.  Do you remember that?

24        A.   Well, a lot of time has gone by since then, and I can't remember

25     everything now, you know.  I'll tell you everything I can remember.  What

Page 716

 1     I can't, I can't.

 2        Q.   Certainly.  But let me jog your memory.  In your statement given

 3     in 2006, in paragraph 3 it says:

 4             "Earlier, previously, I gave a brief statement to the

 5     investigator of the ICTY.  I have now been shown a copy of that statement

 6     made on the 27th of February, 1996.  I confirm that this is a correctly

 7     recorded statement which I gave to the investigator on the 21st of

 8     February, 1996."

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Let me finish, please.  It says:  "I was also shown a copy of the

11     statement I gave to the MUP officers on the 12th of March, 1995, and I

12     have read that statement."

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   "The statement I made on the 12th of March, 1995, is also

15     correctly recorded; however, the date and place of birth are incorrect."

16     So that was the only correction you made.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You also, and this has been admitted into evidence here, met the

19     Prosecution team sometime in the summer of 2006, when there was a

20     reconstruction of the event, and you were filmed using a camera in front

21     of the place where you were hit.  Do you remember that?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   And when you testified in the Milosevic case, you were shown all

24     these statements and you confirmed that they were accurate, as you have

25     done today.

Page 717

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Very well.  You worked for the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a

 3     cook.

 4        A.   An assistant cook.  I assisted the cook.

 5        Q.   Could you please just make a brief pause after my question for

 6     the sake of interpretation, to avoid any problems in the transcript.

 7             Could you tell us where your place of work was?  You said it was

 8     at Kosevo.

 9        A.   Behind the Kosevo Hospital.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the rest of

11     the answer.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, the witness -- the interpreters did not

13     understand the rest of the answer.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Could you please explain more clearly where the place was where

16     you worked at Kosevo.

17        A.   It's behind the skyscraper, right under the sky -- underneath the

18     skyscraper, next to the stadium.  That's where it was.

19        Q.   Were there any civilians living there?  Did people live there?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  There was a skyscraper and just a road in between.

21        Q.   Can you tell me what military facilities were there?  What was

22     the army doing there?  Who was there from the army?

23        A.   Well, it was the young men defending the front line.  What do I

24     know?  I don't know.  We took care of the kitchen.  I didn't look at

25     anything else.

Page 718

 1        Q.   And you said -- I don't want to omit the reference again.  But

 2     you were advised to take your uniform off when you went home, so you

 3     didn't take your uniform away from your place of work.

 4        A.   I had a uniform, but I never wore it, actually.  They gave it to

 5     me, but I never wore it.  I just wore my civilian clothes.

 6        Q.   You heard people say that there were snipers all around Sarajevo.

 7        A.   Yes.  And yes, there were, because whenever I was going to work,

 8     I was always afraid, from Poljo, from Trebevic, from everywhere we were

 9     afraid because it came from all sides.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

11             MR. CANNATA:  Yes.  Once again, can I have references for the

12     last two questions, that is, the question at page 38, line -- I'm sorry,

13     line 22, and the next question was at -- well, it was not a question but

14     a statement, but it was page 39, line 2.  The references would be very

15     much appreciated.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I just asked the question

18     deliberately not making a reference, and that's what I said, for the

19     record.  I did not refer to any specific part of the witness's testimony.

20     I don't think I'm obliged to constantly give references in my

21     cross-examination.  I'm just putting questions that the witness is forced

22     to answer.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata, I see you want to stand up.

24             MR. CANNATA:  Well, if the Defence is putting previous evidence

25     to the witness by way of using the expression "and you said," meaning the

Page 719

 1     witness, then it would be, I would consider, wise and advisable to have

 2     reference to where the witness was supposedly saying what the Defence is

 3     putting to the witness.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, at page 38, line 22, you said, "and you

 5     said -- and I don't want to omit the reference again.  But you were

 6     advised to take your uniform off when you went home, so you didn't take

 7     your uniform away from your place of work."

 8             Now, I did indicate a little earlier this morning that when you

 9     do make references to either statements by the witness or to her

10     testimony in the previous cases, please give the reference.  And here you

11     specifically said you don't want to admit to the reference again.  Your

12     learned friend on the prosecution side would like you to give the

13     reference, and I would like you to please give the reference, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will then need some time.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then again at page 39, line 2, you say:  "You

16     heard people say that there were snipers all around Sarajevo."

17             Again, if you can give your learned friend where you get that

18     statement from.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Transcript page 1603.

20     Let me just find it.  Page 1603, line 19, is the reference to the

21     uniform.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, page 1603 of the transcript, at line 19, it

23     reads:  "In your opinion, Witness, were there a lot of people working for

24     the BiH army but who did not wear their uniform for the same reasons?"

25     That's what I read there.

Page 720

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That includes women.  Women also

 2     worked there.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  We understand, madam.  If you can just hold

 4     on, we're still talking about the lawyer who's asking you questions.

 5     You'll answer in a few minutes' time.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Line 12.  I apologise, Your Honour.

 7     The question was in line 12, and the answer is in line 17, on the same

 8     page.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, again, what is being said at those

10     lines, Mr. Lukic, there's no reference to her leaving the uniform at work

11     when she goes home, which is what you are putting to her.  Now, the whole

12     purpose, the whole purpose of giving a reference is to ensure that we

13     don't embellish the evidence.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe my question

15     into English might have been misinterpreted.  My question was not that

16     the uniform was left at work.  My question was, in fact, that she did not

17     wear a uniform outside her workplace, but I will make the question

18     clearer.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That didn't come out like that, Mr. Lukic.  If you

20     want it read to you, what was translated to the -- on the transcript, it

21     says -- this is, again, page 38, line 22:

22             "And you said -- and I don't want to omit the reference again.

23     But you were advised to take your uniform off when you went home, so you

24     didn't take your uniform away from your place of work."

25             That's how it's translated, and that's what we go by.  Now you

Page 721

 1     say you're misinterpreted.  Thank you so much.  You may proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Witness, do you know whether the army where you were an assistant

 4     cook had any snipers?

 5        A.   Let me tell you, I didn't know anything about that.  All I did

 6     was work in the kitchen.  I didn't deal with anything else.  I just went

 7     in and out of the kitchen.  I had no other business.  I peeled potatoes,

 8     prepared rice, et cetera.

 9        Q.   That's all I asked you.  When I ask a brief question, you can

10     answer very briefly.

11             You were aware, though, that the separation line, the conflict

12     line, was 200 metres away from the place you worked, approximately.  Did

13     you know that?

14        A.   What do I know?  We just took cover when there was gun-fire.  I

15     did not dare look around.  I just ran to the nearest shelter when there

16     was gun-fire so as to avoid bullets.

17        Q.   Did you know where the separation line was at Sedrenik?

18        A.   At Sedrenik, I didn't measure it.  I didn't -- well, it was close

19     by.  I just don't know.

20        Q.   Just give me an answer.  That line was approximately 200 metres

21     from the place where you were hit.  Do you know that?

22        A.   Well, at least as the crow flies, 200 metres it was from

23     Spicaste Stijena.

24        Q.   Do you know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina held the hill

25     called Grdonja?

Page 722

 1        A.   I just told you that I don't know anything about which army was

 2     where.  All I know is that there was Spicaste Stijena.  I knew

 3     approximately where our troops were and approximately where the other

 4     side's troops were.

 5        Q.   On page 1594 in the Milosevic trial, you answered one question

 6     this way.  I'll read it in English.

 7             [In English] "Grdonja is the hill in the right by Grdonj 200 or

 8     300 metres is Spicaste Stijena."

 9             [Interpretation] Do you remember stating this in evidence?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So you will agree that at the time when you stated that you

12     thought that was the distance between the two places.

13        A.   I remember saying that and that's, I believe, how it was.  That

14     was the distance as the crow flies between Spicaste Stijena and the place

15     where I was hit.

16        Q.   Do you know that the BH army members fired from Grdonja and from

17     their own positions they held there at the distance you stated?

18        A.   Well, that's too much to ask of me.  I don't know that.  All I

19     know is that the shot that hit me came from Spicaste Stijena.  How they

20     were opening fire, what they were doing, I really can't tell you anything

21     about that.

22        Q.   All right.  Let me refresh your memory.  When you were asked at

23     that Milosevic trial, on page 1603, the question was:  "What was the

24     first time you heard that there was gun-fire around Spicaste Stijena?"

25     And you said, in line 5:

Page 723

 1             [In English] "Well, I'm telling you what I know.  I know they

 2     said, 'They're firing from Spicaste Stijena.  Watch out.  Take care.

 3     They're firing.'"

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   [In English] "That's when I learned from Spicaste Stijena.  I

 6     hadn't known about it until this happened."

 7             [Interpretation] My question is:  Did you know that gun-fire was

 8     coming from Spicaste Stijena before you were hit?

 9        A.   Well, I heard before that people were saying, Look out, there is

10     fire coming from Spicaste Stijena.  It's not like that place was

11     completely unfamiliar to me.  I had family there even before the war, and

12     I lived close by during the war.

13        Q.   My question is:  Did you know fire was coming from there when you

14     came to live there?

15        A.   Most of the fire came from there, sniper fire and other fire.

16     We, who lived there, were targeted the most often.

17        Q.   Please try to understand my question.  I'm trying to be as

18     precise as I can.  Had you heard that gun-fire was coming from that

19     location you mentioned, Spicaste Stijena, only when you came to live in

20     Sedrenik during the war?

21        A.   Yes.  I heard then people saying, Gun-fire is coming from

22     Spicaste Stijena.

23        Q.   You lived in Sedrenik for a number of months; correct?

24        A.   I don't know exactly how long.  Perhaps it was as long as a year.

25     I was put up there as a refugee.

Page 724

 1        Q.   I'll read it back to you to refresh your memory.  Just a moment.

 2     Your statement of the 20th April 2006, it is now Exhibit Number P111,

 3     paragraph 6, you said, quote:

 4             "In May 1994 I found a job as assistant cook in the BH army.  The

 5     army provided me with a small apartment in the street of Zaima Sarca, in

 6     which I reside to date."

 7             And in paragraph 5, I quote:

 8             "Eventually I found a small house in Sedrenik, and that's where I

 9     lived for a few months."

10        A.   I don't know for how long, but I did live there.

11        Q.   But at the time when you were injured, you were not living there?

12        A.   I lived in Zaima Sarca Street, but the wood that I needed for

13     fuel was still back there in my previous residence, and I had to collect

14     it to take it to my new apartment.

15        Q.   That's what I want to clarify, because in your statement it seems

16     that the OTP, in fact, said that you were living there when you were

17     shot, and from all your other statements it transpires that at the time

18     you were already living in Zaima Sarca Street.

19        A.   I lived in both places practically at the same time.  I had to go

20     back to my previous residence in emergencies.

21        Q.   Please try to remember that.  I don't want to push you.  But on

22     the day when the incident happened, from the apartment where you had

23     moved in, you went back to your previous residence to get firewood.

24        A.   Well, I really can't remember that precisely.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata.

Page 725

 1             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, I have an issue here.  It's page 45,

 2     line 8, and I quote:  "Because in your statement it seems that the OTP,

 3     in fact, said that you were living there ..."

 4             Can I ask you for a reference for that statement -- that

 5     proposition by the Defence?  Instead, it's not -- in the indictment, it's

 6     not alleged that Witness Selmanovic was living in the apartment -- in

 7     house in Sedrenik Street number 56 where she was shot.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I did not mention the indictment at

10     all, Your Honours.  I heard today from my learned friend the Prosecutor,

11     when he was reading the summary, that she was injured outside her place

12     of residence.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What was read out today was that the incident

14     occurred on the 10th of December, 1994, when Witness Selmanovic was shot

15     and injured while collecting firewood in the backyard of a house located

16     in Sedrenik Street, number 56, in the north-east of Sarajevo.  There's no

17     reference to her -- that place being her residence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I had really understood the

19     Prosecutor as saying that this was her house, her place of residence.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When the Prosecutor read out that summary, he read

21     out from a piece of paper and I have the piece of paper here, and I'm

22     reading exactly what I thought he read at the time.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Witness --

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am asking this for a

Page 726

 1     very simple reason, that is, that it wasn't clear during the Milosevic

 2     trial, it wasn't clear to me and I wanted to clarify it with the witness,

 3     because as she described her life at the time, I had understood that she

 4     was living there, which was clashing with what I knew from other sources

 5     that at the time she was already living somewhere else.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That may very well be true and correct, Mr. Lukic,

 7     and you do need to make those clarifications.  But in doing so, don't

 8     confuse us further, you know, because you're now attributing to the

 9     Prosecution statements that I don't see anywhere, and in the process now

10     I'm getting lost, because I'm trying to find out in my mind where was it

11     alleged that it was in her residence when she got injured.  And sitting

12     here I'm trying to recollect from my reading of her statement, my

13     remembrance is that she moved from her residence to a place somewhere to

14     go and collect wood, and it was there that she was injured.  Now, how you

15     come to that conclusion, I'm a bit lost.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I want to find it in the Milosevic

17     transcript.  Just a moment, Your Honours, please.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means, sir.  And I hope you do appreciate

19     the importance, therefore, of --

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- giving references when you put previous

22     statements to the witness.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Madam, you don't recall or you do recall whether at that time, on

25     the day when the incident occurred, you were there.

Page 727

 1        A.   I was there.  Where was I?  I was there.  I know that.  That's

 2     where I was wounded.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say "you were there," I don't understand

 4     what you mean?  Where?  Where, Mr. Lukic?  Sorry.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the location where

 6     she was hit in front of the shed where she was collecting wood.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  And I think if you go to paragraph 3 of her

 8     statement of 12th of March, you will see there where she says she was

 9     when she got hit.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you will see that that wasn't her current

12     residence, in fact.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Correct.  That's how I understand the

14     statement.  In the transcript there was mention of the fact -- in

15     cross-examination she was asked where she was residing at the time she

16     was injured, and I wanted to see whether it was necessary to refer back

17     to the statement made to the police, because there it's stated precisely.

18             May I proceed?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Proceed, sir.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   When you were asked on page 1598 in the Milosevic case --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you give us the lines, please.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24        Q.   You were asked by Judge Mindua, line 10:

25             [In English] "The noise that you heard and that you heard also

Page 728

 1     that day when you were hit, were they coming from the same direction or

 2     from various directions?"

 3             [Interpretation] Your answer was?

 4        A.   From Spicaste, that was the closest part.  That's where it came

 5     from.  We heard the whiz of the bullet, and then it hit.

 6        Q.   I will read to you what you said then.

 7             [In English] "I cannot tell you that.  I don't know.  I don't

 8     know.  I cannot say.  There was shooting, and you'd be hiding in the

 9     house most of the time.  You know, you just hear shooting, and you run

10     away to seek shelter."

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

12             MR. CANNATA:  My apologies again, but before the witness answers,

13     can I -- in order to avoid any misunderstanding between my learned friend

14     and the witness, can I suggest that it's made clear that the answer

15     quoted by the witness, which I quote "I cannot tell you that, I don't

16     know," and so on, refers to the question asked by His Honour Judge Mindua

17     about not the shot that hit the witness but other shooting going on that

18     day, which can be inferred by the very same question by Judge Mindua, so

19     that we avoid that the witness might answer with a wrong understanding of

20     the question.  I don't know if I made myself clear but ...

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not to me.  I don't know whether your learned

22     friend understood you.

23             Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask the witness a very

25     precise question.

Page 729

 1        Q.   You were hit.  After that you say you heard 20 or 30 more shots;

 2     is that correct?

 3        A.   The bullets were raining down, "pu, pu, pu, pu, pu."

 4        Q.   Well, let me ask you:  This shooting that was heard, how many

 5     bullets were there, according to you?  Can you remember?

 6        A.   How could I remember when they were shooting and I was hit by a

 7     bullet and then I thought only of myself.

 8        Q.   Were there 20, 30, or more bullets?

 9        A.   What do I know?  It was just a shower of bullets.  How could I

10     count them?

11        Q.   Well, let me ask you:  Do you know what a burst of fire is --

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   -- a burst from an automatic weapon?

14        A.   Yes.  Those are small bullets like infantry, and all of a sudden

15     they just --

16        Q.   On that occasion did it sound to you like automatic fire?

17        A.   I can't remember every detail.  What do I know?  I just know that

18     we were afraid, and we had to flee and run for shelter every day.  And

19     then I thought, Well, they won't fire now.  I went to collect some wood,

20     and when I least expected it, they were constantly shooting.  They were

21     always shooting, but ...

22        Q.   You don't have to reply at such length.  I simply asked you

23     whether the fire you heard afterwards sounded like automatic fire or like

24     individual shots.  Do you know?

25        A.   Well, believe me, I don't remember that.  I can't tell you that.

Page 730

 1     I only know that there was shooting, but I can't remember that detail.

 2        Q.   But before that you didn't hear a single shot fired that day?

 3        A.   Well, there was never a day without any shooting at all.  There

 4     was never such a day, nor could there be such a day, or hour or minute,

 5     without something happening.  But, you know, it was long away, and then

 6     it wouldn't be afraid, and if it was close by, then you'd be afraid.

 7        Q.   Well, can you tell me precisely whether you remember on that day,

 8     before you were hit, when you went to that place where you were

 9     collecting firewood, did you hear shooting?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             In your statement to the OTP, you said, referring to

13     Spicaste Stijena, that --

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And that's in paragraph 3, Your

15     Honours, of the first statement, Exhibit 110.

16        Q.   "The snipers were constantly shooting from that position."

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   "From there, there was constant sniper fire.  Those positions

19     were held by the Chetniks."

20             In paragraph 4 you say:  "I was perhaps a kilometre away from the

21     sniper position, but the sniper could clearly see I was a civilian and a

22     woman."

23        A.   Yes, that's correct, he could have seen that.

24        Q.   Well, I'm asking you how you know that.

25        A.   Well, because it's nearby and because they have equipment which

Page 731

 1     enables them to see.

 2        Q.   You were aware that a sniper can make such distinctions at the

 3     distance of a thousand metres, that they could tell who was a civilian?

 4        A.   How would I know?  I'd never seen a war before.  I'd never been

 5     in a war before that.  How would I know such things?

 6        Q.   You didn't see where the shot that hit you came from.  You just

 7     felt pain in your knee.

 8        A.   I felt something like a large stone hit me.  He fired until he

 9     hit me.

10        Q.   Could you just answer my question, please.  You did not see from

11     where the bullet that hit you came.  That's what I'm asking you.  Yes or

12     no?

13        A.   No, I didn't see.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15        A.   But Spicaste was there.

16        Q.   Very well.  You sustained a slight physical injury on that day

17     and were released home on the same day; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you remember whether you were given a medical report?

20        A.   They told us that on the next day I should come again for my

21     dressing to be changed on the wound, and nothing else.

22        Q.   Well, did they give you a piece of paper?

23        A.   I beg your pardon?

24        Q.   Did you get a document from the hospital?

25        A.   Yes, I did get a letter of discharge.

Page 732

 1        Q.   Did you give it to the police or the OTP?  I apologise for

 2     asking, if you don't remember.

 3        A.   I don't remember.  How could I remember that so many years later?

 4     There are too many questions.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking this, Your Honours,

 6     because in the Dragomir Milosevic judgement, in paragraph 357 and

 7     footnote 1269, I found mention of a medical report under seal.  But I'll

 8     see that with the OTP later on.  I never had a chance to see this medical

 9     report, and there were certain discrepancies.

10        Q.   You were hit with only one bullet; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

13             MR. CANNATA:  One clarification.  The document my learned friend

14     is referring to is 65 ter 5 -- 4522.  It's a medical report tendered

15     under seal in the Dragomir Milosevic case.  It was disclosed as part of

16     the additional exhibits to this witness but it wasn't tendered to date.

17     But it was disclosed to the Defence.  And actually, it was disclosed on

18     16 March 2007 and again on 16 November 2007, so the Defence had

19     possession of this document.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata, when you say "it was disclosed

21     as part of additional exhibits to this witness but it wasn't tendered to

22     date," I'm not quite sure I understand.  Disclosed to the witness or

23     disclosed to the Defence?

24             MR. CANNATA:  It was disclosed to the Defence.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There's a response there, Mr. Lukic.  I don't

Page 733

 1     know --

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  When I was looking at the

 3     documentation -- well, now it's been clarified, so I will clarify this

 4     with other witnesses who will be testifying about the investigation.

 5        Q.   So I'll just put a few more brief questions to you, madam.

 6             You said in your statements that the bullet came from the left,

 7     from the direction of Spicaste Stijena; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And that's what you said when you testified in the

10     Dragomir Milosevic case.

11        A.   Correct.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll now ask my learned friends from

13     the OTP if they can play for us a video which is now in evidence, and

14     it's number 114.  It's the 42nd minute, 16 seconds, 42:16 is the time,

15     and it's the reconstruction of the event you will recall.

16        Q.   We'll look at that, and then I'll ask you to comment on it.

17                           [Videotape played]

18             "MR. HOGAN:  Witness, at this point I would like you to please to

19     point to the location on your body where the bullet hit you on the 10th

20     of November 1994.

21             "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

22             "MR. HOGAN:  Thank you.

23             "Can you please assume the position how you were positioned on

24     that day?

25             "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

Page 734

 1             "MR. HOGAN:  Thank you.

 2             "And finally, can you please point to the location, rather, the

 3     direction from which you believe the shot came from that wounded you on

 4     that day.

 5             "THE WITNESS:  [Indicates]

 6             "MR. HOGAN:  Thank you."

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Well, now I would like to clarify some points.  You indicated the

 9     right side.  Just let me put the question to you.  I don't want to

10     confuse you.  I just want to clarify.  You indicated a direction to the

11     right, although you always said you had been hit on the left-hand side.

12     So my question is:  Regardless of what's left and what's right, did you

13     indicate the direction of Spicaste Stijena in this video or the opposite

14     side?

15        A.   I do apologise.  I knew at the time I had made a mistake.  I

16     indicated with my right hand.  I should have indicated with my left.  I

17     was confused at the time but, I corrected that afterwards.

18        Q.   It doesn't matter what hand you used but the direction you

19     indicated.  It depends on how you turn.  But the direction you indicated,

20     is that the direction of Spicaste Stijena, or is it the opposite

21     direction?

22        A.   Well, let me tell you, the direction was to the left.  I should

23     have indicated Spicaste Stijena to the left, but I made a mistake and I

24     pointed to the right.

25        Q.   So may I conclude that you were pointing in a direction which is

Page 735

 1     not the direction where Spicaste Stijena are located?

 2        A.   I know it came from the side of the Spicaste Stijena, and I

 3     should have indicated that side but I indicated the opposite side.  I had

 4     made a mistake, and I corrected it afterwards.

 5        Q.   So do I conclude correctly that when you indicated where you had

 6     been hit from on this video, you were not pointing in the direction of

 7     Spicaste Stijena.

 8        A.   No, I wasn't, but I was mistaken.  I saw that I was mistaken and

 9     I corrected my mistake.  I was confused.

10        Q.   Well, do you sometimes, when you're talking to friends, for

11     example, chatting, do you sometimes mistake right and left?

12        A.   Well, one can always make a mistake.  As one ages, anything can

13     happen.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

15     Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, what do you want to do with that video

17     clip that you played?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This video is already in evidence.

19     It's P111.  I just wanted it shown to the witness.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me correct myself.  It's Exhibit

22     114, at 42 minutes, 18 seconds.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

24             Ma'am, before the Prosecutor asks you, can you clarify something

25     for me?  You've just said that you made a mistake by pointing to the

Page 736

 1     right; you should have pointed to the left.  Then if you point to the

 2     left -- just wait for my question.  If you then point to the left, then

 3     the bullet should have hit you on the inside of your knee, not on the

 4     outside of the knee, as you showed us on the video.  Are you able to

 5     explain that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you, that's how

 7     it was.  It hit me on the inside and exited on the outside.  I really

 8     lost track of everything when it happened.  I don't even know how it

 9     happened.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             Any re-examination, Mr. Cannata?

12             MR. CANNATA:  Yes, with your leave, Your Honours, I have a few

13     questions to ask.

14             Actually, on this note, can I take the witness to page 1593 of

15     the transcripts, which is P112.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Cannata:

17        Q.   And I quote from line 3, as a question from the Prosecution

18     counsel, Mr. Doherty.  The question goes:

19             "Also you indicate on the video that the bullet entered your knee

20     on the outside, and in your statement you said it entered your knee on

21     the inside.  Are you aware of that discrepancy also?"

22             The witness answered:  "I know that I started walking and that it

23     was the inner side."

24             Witness, Madam Witness, do you confirm that that's your answer

25     and that that's what actually happened?

Page 737

 1        A.   That happened, but what do I know?  I was scared.  When the

 2     bullet hit me, I no longer had my wits about me.  You know how these

 3     moments are.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I have a few more questions on a different topic.

 5             Madam Witness, what did you do as an assistant cook?  What were

 6     your duties?

 7        A.   I peeled potatoes, I prepared rice, I washed dishes, that sort of

 8     thing.

 9        Q.   Were you engaged in any combat operations?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Did you carry any weapons on account of your work?

12        A.   No.  What are you talking about?

13        Q.   Were you wearing any uniform?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Were you wearing any -- wearing any uniform inside the building

16     you were performing your duties as an assistant cook?

17        A.   I did not, no.

18        Q.   Were you wearing a uniform or -- were you wearing a uniform the

19     day you were shot?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Did you have any weapons with you the day you were shot?

22        A.   No way.

23        Q.   Thank you.  How long have you been living in Sedrenik, roughly?

24        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  I cannot tell you precisely whether

25     it was a year or less than a year.  I didn't keep track because I didn't

Page 738

 1     know somebody would ask me one day.

 2        Q.   But even after the incident, you kept going to Sedrenik, weren't

 3     you?

 4        A.   I have family there.  I went there to visit, and I still go there

 5     regularly to Sedrenik.  That's where my family is.

 6        Q.   Can I read something to you, which is adjudicated fact number

 7     122, which was admitted by this Honourable Chamber.

 8             MR. CANNATA:  Can I, Your Honour?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Adjudicated fact from which case?

10             MR. CANNATA:  From this case.  It's one of the facts in Annex A

11     to the Prosecution's motion for judicial notice of adjudicated facts in

12     respect of Sarajevo, which was filed on the 6th of February, 2007, and a

13     decision was delivered in this case on the 26th of June, 2008.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, you may proceed.

15             MR. CANNATA:

16        Q.   This is --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Mr. Lukic?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We just didn't understand what the

19     purpose of this was.  Did the Prosecutor want to indicate a reference

20     with this question?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, he was trying to answer the question from

22     the Bench, "adjudicated facts from which previous case," and then he

23     referred to "adjudicated facts with respect to Sarajevo."  What I wanted

24     to find out is which case was -- in which case were those facts

25     adjudicated?

Page 739

 1             MR. CANNATA:  The Galic case, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Galic case.

 3             MR. CANNATA:  Galic case.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

 5             MR. CANNATA:

 6        Q.   Witness, I'll read a sentence to you:

 7             "Civilians in the area of Sedrenik experienced indiscriminate or

 8     direct small-arms fire originating from Spicaste Stijena, SRK-controlled

 9     territory, between September 1992 and August 1994."

10             Would you agree with this sentence?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I think this is leading question anyway.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, ma'am, don't --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that it was dangerous --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, ma'am, before you answer.  There's an

18     objection, Mr. Cannata, that you are asking a leading question.

19             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, in fact, it's not.  This is

20     adjudicated fact 122.  It's part of the trial record.  I'm putting to the

21     witness this sentence.  I will ask her to make comments on that.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My only question to you would be:  How does it

23     arise from cross-examination?

24             MR. CANNATA:  My understanding of the cross-examination main line

25     was that it's being contested that the shooting at civilians which the

Page 740

 1     area of Sedrenik experienced throughout the war was part of an exchange

 2     of fire, while the Prosecution's submission is that it originated from a

 3     sniper position, Spicaste Stijena, held by the SRK throughout the whole

 4     siege, that is, from September 1992 to -- as far as the adjudicated fact

 5     is concerned, August 1994.

 6             What I would like the witness to tell us is whether this pattern

 7     of fire against civilians originating from Spicaste Stijena carried out

 8     throughout November 1995, with your leave.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, sorry, ma'am.  Just before -- but the time

10     range that you put in your question - let me just hold it before it

11     disappears - had nothing to do with November 1994, sir.  You said "August

12     1994."  You didn't say "November."  I beg your pardon.  I'm with you.

13             MR. CANNATA:  May I proceed?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But be that as it may, I still don't see how the

15     adjudicated fact from the Galic case with respect to September 1992 to

16     August 1994 arises from cross-examination.  The testimony of this witness

17     is that she was injured on the 10th of December, which is outside that

18     period that you are asking here about.

19             MR. CANNATA:  I understand, Your Honour.  May I rephrase the

20     question, then?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, sir.

22             MR. CANNATA:

23        Q.   Madam Witness, are you aware of civilians being --

24             MR. CANNATA:  Hold on one second, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Madam Witness, are you aware of any sniping incident that

Page 741

 1     occurred in Sedrenik from the day you were shot onwards, from the 10th of

 2     December, 1994, onwards?  Were you aware of any such incident?

 3        A.   It happened every day.  Somebody was hurt every day.  Somebody

 4     was wounded, hit by a bullet, every day.  I can't know after all this

 5     time, I can't remember all of that.  It happened every day.  They shot

 6     every day.

 7        Q.   Who are "they"?  Who are the people shooting from Spicaste

 8     Stijena?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I suppose that from my

11     cross-examination and the entire testimony of this witness, the answers

12     regarding Spicaste Stijena are very clear.  I believe the Prosecutor is

13     now going beyond the 92 statement and is trying to get some different

14     answers from the witness.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata, any response?

16             MR. CANNATA:  Yes.  I just wanted to clarify for the record, in a

17     clear way, what the witness has previously testified about on the first

18     statement, paragraph 3, last line, which I quote --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but what the witness has previously testified

20     about, the Trial Chamber is perfectly in a position to see when it reads

21     that portion, when the time comes.

22             MR. CANNATA:  Then I have no further questions, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.

24             Any questions?  Any questions, Judge?

25             Thank you very much, Mrs. Selmanovic, for coming to testify in

Page 742

 1     this case.  This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony.  You are

 2     now excused.  You may stand down.  And please travel well back home.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I am aware of the time.  The Prosecution

 6     had hoped to have its next witness originally scheduled to begin tomorrow

 7     morning ready to continue on today, Monday; however, the witness's plane

 8     was late yesterday arriving into the Netherlands, so the witness was not

 9     able to review her materials until -- literally, it's ongoing right now.

10     So we do not have another witness to present today.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For the day, okay.  Thank you very much.

12             In that event, then, we'll stand adjourned to tomorrow, at 9.00

13     in the morning, in Courtroom III.  That's what my schedule says.  Unless

14     somebody has got a more updated schedule.  Courtroom III?

15             MR. SAXON:  I looked at the court calendar this morning, and I

16     believe it said Courtroom II, Your Honour, but I could ...

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would like

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am instructed then that I am mistaken, that it

20     will then be Courtroom II.  We'll meet in here at 9.00 in the morning,

21     Courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.08 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of

24                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.