Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 743

 1                           Tuesday, 28 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case for today.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Could we have appearances for today, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon for the

15     Prosecution with my colleagues Salvatore Cannata, Carolyn Edgerton, and

16     Carmela Javier.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             And for the Defence?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

20     morning to everyone in the courtroom.  On behalf of the Defence, today in

21     the courtroom there is me, Novak Lukic, Gregor Guy-Smith, and our case

22     manager Danijela Tasic, and our assistant, Milos Androvic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

24             MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, Ms. Edgerton will call the witness this

25     morning.

Page 744

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, are there any special arrangements

 2     for this witness, or is she an ordinary witness?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  This witness has protected measures from the last

 4     proceeding she testified in, Your Honours.  As per a notification the

 5     Prosecution filed, she has facial distortion, and of course those

 6     measures apply, and we'd ask that that be made the case for her testimony

 7     today.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want us then to go into closed session

 9     before she walks in?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  I think that would be appropriate, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

12                           [Private session]

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Page 745

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12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't have anybody in the gallery?

17             You may proceed.

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   Do you recall coming to testify in February 2007 before another

20     Trial Chamber of this Tribunal?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Now, to prepare for your testimony today, did my colleagues read

23     back to you the questions asked and the answers you gave during that

24     previous testimony?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 746

 1        Q.   Was that in your own language?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you understand everything that you heard?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you also have a chance to look at the copies of photographs

 6     and documents and maps you referred to during that testimony?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did that also include a copy of a statement you gave to the

 9     Office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal in 1996?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, if I asked you all the same questions today in respect of

12     that evidence, would you give the same answers?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  That being the case, Your Honours, may I move into

15     evidence, and I'll refer to the 65 ter numbers, the previous testimony

16     associated exhibits and statement of this witness from the

17     Dragomir Milosevic proceedings?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What are the 65 ter numbers?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  For the previous testimony, the 65 ter number is

20     09305; the associated exhibits are 09301, 02, and 03, all of which are

21     colour photographs; 09304, which is a map; and 05791, which is a

22     document; and finally, the ICTY statement from 23 February 1996, which is

23     09300.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, ma'am.

25             All those documents are admitted into evidence.  May they please

Page 747

 1     be given exhibit numbers.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  09305 will be Exhibit P115, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  09301 will be Exhibit P116; 09302 will be Exhibit

 5     P117; 09303 will be Exhibit P118; 09304 will be Exhibit P119; 05791 will

 6     be Exhibit P120; and finally, 09300 will be Exhibit P121, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, Your Honours, with your leave, I'll just read

10     a brief summary, and then I have a couple of clarifying questions for

11     this witness.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

14             This witness has been a resident of the area of Dobrinja since

15     1985 and was injured in the shelling of the Simon Bolivar school on

16     June 18, 1995.  By that date residents of Dobrinja had been without water

17     or electricity for about a month.  Water pumps were improvised throughout

18     the area.  Water was rationed when it was available.  The witness's

19     husband often went out at night to collect water because of sniper

20     activity during the day.

21             On the morning of 18 June 1995, the witness queued for water from

22     a pump located in an open area in the ruin of the Simon Bolivar school,

23     which had been destroyed by a fire from a shelling earlier in the war.

24     In order to reach the school, the witness had to cross a playground which

25     was generally unsafe due to sniping, which the witness believes

Page 748

 1     originated from the nearby Nedzarici neighbourhood controlled by the

 2     Bosnian Serb army.

 3             The witness was one of the first people in line for water.  There

 4     were approximately 50 to 70 people behind her.  She was standing in a

 5     door frame when the shell struck.  Mrs. Sisic was injured in the heel and

 6     upper area of her right leg.  A total of seven people were killed as a

 7     result of the impact, including two of her neighbours, while 11 or 12

 8     people were injured.

 9             And that concludes the summary, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, just as I'd indicated, a couple of clarifying

12     questions, the first actually relating to a map which appears in

13     everyone's map book as map number 8.  And because the copy which is

14     uploaded in e-court is in black and white, I've had a colour copy

15     identical to the one prepared in your map books produced because I think

16     it's much easier for the witness to see.

17             Could I ask that this be shown to the witness, please.  Yes, we

18     will need it on the ELMO.

19        Q.   Ma'am, do you recognise generally what the map on the machine

20     beside you depicts?  Do you know what that's a map of?

21        A.   It's the map of the city of Sarajevo.

22        Q.   Now, just so that we can all orient ourselves, are you generally

23     able to indicate with a circle the area of the old town of Sarajevo, or

24     the city centre, let's say?

25        A.   You mean one circle around both the centre and the old town?

Page 749

 1        Q.   My apologies, and I'll be clear.  Let's say the old town first.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             And could you put a number 1 inside that circle.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the city centre that I'd mentioned previously,

 7     could you roughly indicate the general area of the city centre.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And you've drawn another circle around that.  Could you put a 2

10     inside that circle, please.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, could you generally indicate the area of

13     Dobrinja settlement, where you lived, also with another circle.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And could you put a 3 inside that circle, please.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Now, could you perhaps, having lived in Dobrinja for so long,

18     give us an indication how far the distance one would have had to travel

19     by road would be to get from Dobrinja to the old town?

20        A.   It's about 10 to 15 kilometres' distance.  In terms of time, it

21     would be 10, 15 minutes by car, or 15 to 20 minutes by car.

22        Q.   Now, in order to travel by car, let's say, what's the most direct

23     route?  Could you draw a line indicating the road you might take normally

24     to go from Dobrinja to Sarajevo city centre.

25        A.   Everything is so small on this map, it's rather difficult.

Page 750

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is there a map of which that kind of detail can be

 2     shown, Madam Edgerton?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  Had we done the e-court absolutely

 5     correctly, we would have been able to zoom in.  So what I think I'll do

 6     is leave this now and ask that it be marked as an exhibit and go to an

 7     electronic cut-out that I have of the map where the witness can see more

 8     detail.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, ma'am.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  With that being said, could this paper copy of the

11     map be tendered, please, as the next exhibit.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The map is tendered into evidence.  May it please

13     be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P122, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, and this might take a couple of seconds to

17     call up in e-court, could I ask for the cut-out of map 02719, and in

18     fact, Your Honour, it is a cut-out, as I've just said, of the map we've

19     just seen.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm told it's on e-court as some kind of an

22     attachment to the larger document, Madam Registrar.  You've seen it?

23     Thank you.

24             I'm sorry, that's the original document.  I'm looking for the

25     cut-out of the larger document that's there as an attachment.

Page 751

 1             I think Mrs. Javier is going to re-release them.  My apologies,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             Great.  There we have it.

 4        Q.   Mrs. Sisic, do you see on the screen in front of you a map that

 5     has some more detail than the one you previously looked at?

 6        A.   Yes.  You can see more of this part of town where Dobrinja is,

 7     but I don't see the centre, and I don't see the old town.  In fact, I

 8     don't see the old town.

 9        Q.   That's quite okay.  I'm going to ask you a couple of questions

10     based on this map.  Are you able to indicate on this map the approximate

11     location of where you lived on the 18th of June, 1995?  And you'll

12     remember from your previous testimony, you'll need to do that with the

13     pen my colleague will hand you.

14        A.   Shall I put a circle around it?

15        Q.   A small one, please, and you can mark it with the number 1.

16        A.   I crossed the school ...

17        Q.   So you've marked the Simon Bolivar school, I take it, or your

18     apartment building?  I'm not sure I understood.

19        A.   My building where I lived, I touched upon the school but the

20     school is not within the circle.

21        Q.   All right.  So I take it from what you've said that the school is

22     immediately proximate to your building?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, are you able to indicate with an arrow what the main road

25     would be connecting Dobrinja to the city centre, if you were going to

Page 752

 1     travel by car?

 2        A.   I don't know how to do that.  Maybe this road here.  It's kind of

 3     difficult, but I'll try.  It's this road.  Is this okay?

 4        Q.   So the point of the arrow is, as I understand you, leaving from

 5     Dobrinja towards the city centre.

 6        A.   Sorry, I made a mistake.  If you allow me, this road was used

 7     only very little.  What we did is went through the settlement.  I can't

 8     see the road clearly because I'm --

 9        Q.   Sorry.

10        A.    -- we used a shortcut.

11        Q.   Madam Witness, I'd like to know - my question was and I'll try

12     and explain it a little more clearly - I'd like to know if you can mark

13     the main road that you would have used before the war to travel by car

14     from Dobrinja to the Sarajevo city centre.  And perhaps we could, since

15     you've indicated we made a mistake, erase the line that you've made.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How does she erase it?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is the main road.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If she shifts the map, she can erase it, but she

19     will erase also the circle around her house.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  I always understand that my colleague should be

21     able to take it away.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, okay.  That's -- we learn all the time.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  It's a good day when that happens to each of us.

24        Q.   Would you like me to repeat my question, ma'am?

25        A.   I understood your question.

Page 753

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   I had just made an arrow, and it is indeed the road that we used

 3     before the war, and of course we use it today, but it was little used

 4     during the war.  We went in between buildings, across parking lots --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ma'am, the question was:  Mark the road that you

 6     used before the war.  That was the question.  Mark that road.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:

10        Q.   Now, the marking that you placed on the map that looks like an

11     upside-down V is the main traffic road you used before the war and today

12     based on what you said to get from Dobrinja to the city centre; is that

13     right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, keeping this map on the screen, I have a couple of questions

16     related to your previous testimony.  At pages 2832 and 2862 of the

17     transcript of your previous testimony, you referred to the area of

18     Nedzarici as being the source of sniper fire which would hit the

19     playground area in front of your apartment.

20             Now, are you able to see and mark with a circle the general area

21     of Nedzarici on this map?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Could you put a 2 inside that circle, please.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at both of those same pages of your previous

Page 754

 1     testimony you said that Nedzarici was, as far as you knew, being held by

 2     the Bosnian Serb army.  How do you know that?  What's the basis for that

 3     statement?

 4        A.   Shots came from that area, from that direction.

 5        Q.   So that actually seems to answer a question which I haven't put

 6     that says -- that would be:  How do you know the origin of fire?  But my

 7     question -- and thank you for that.  My question is:  How do you know

 8     that, as you said, it was the Serb army that held that area?

 9        A.   We were surrounded.  We were not able to move very far.  We could

10     only move around Dobrinja, and even that was life-threatening.  It was at

11     each of our's own risk.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I'm not quite clear, ma'am.  The

14     interpretation said you are saying you were surrounded.  Are you saying

15     the whole area of Dobrinja was surrounded by Serbs, Serb armies, or are

16     you saying the Serb army was in Nedzarici only, to your knowledge?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that both Dobrinja and

18     Sarajevo as a whole were surrounded by the Serb troops.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, ma'am.  But the lawyer is trying to find out

20     more about the source of the fire that injured you on the day in question

21     or that was attacking the area of Dobrinja during that time.  She's not

22     asking about the whole of Sarajevo; she's asking about Dobrinja only.

23             Now, I want to know:  Are you saying that Dobrinja was

24     surrounded, or are you saying that there were soldiers stationed in

25     Nedzarici?

Page 755

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dobrinja was surrounded.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, ma'am.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Just related to that, one more question, perhaps

 4     to try to get closer to the answer.

 5        Q.   How do you know it was the Serb army in Nedzarici and not the

 6     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  How do you know?

 7        A.   Well, the fire came from that direction, and we were not able to

 8     move towards that direction.

 9        Q.   All right, thank you.  I'll move on to another question related

10     to your previous testimony.

11             At page 2836 you seem to have tried to illustrate to the Trial

12     Chamber the distance between you and the water pump when the explosion

13     occurred, and the measure didn't quite come across because you said, It's

14     about as far as the distance between me and the door, and I wonder if you

15     can give us an estimate, perhaps in metres, as to how far you were when

16     the explosion occurred.

17        A.   Some 10 metres away from the pump.  That was the distance between

18     me and the pump.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I have one last question, and we'll just keep

20     this map up on the screen for a moment, please.

21             At page 2840 you said that Dobrinja was regularly shelled and all

22     Sarajevo was shelled as well.  And my question about that is:  How do you

23     know that, that Sarajevo was shelled as well, if you were in Dobrinja

24     some kilometres from the city centre?  What's the basis for your

25     assertion?

Page 756

 1        A.   I had a sister living downtown and some relatives of mine as

 2     well.  When Dobrinja was blocked across Nedzarici, it was very dangerous

 3     to pass through that area, and I was bound for work.  Of course, it was

 4     up to me to decide whether I would want to show up for work or not

 5     because of the danger.  My company was housed in the old town, and it was

 6     my decision to go to work nevertheless.  The danger it involved was

 7     grave, but fortunately nothing happened to me.  There were shots fired.

 8     The targets were even the public transportation means.

 9        Q.   So I understand from what you're saying that you know the

10     situation in the whole city during the conflict because you did travel to

11     work from Dobrinja to the city centre and back again when you could.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is a leading question,

15     after all.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment.  I'll rephrase.

18        Q.   So based on what you're saying, did you receive information as to

19     the situation in the whole of the city from your sister and your

20     relatives?

21        A.   But of course, and I was myself witness to it.

22        Q.   What did you hear, first, from your sister and your relatives,

23     and then tell us what you saw.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have not been objecting to this

Page 757

 1     line of questioning so far because the emphasis was, and I was able to

 2     see this from the statements and the testimony, on what was contained in

 3     the summary; however, now a completely new topic is being broached, one

 4     that I did not expect would be raised in view of what the Prosecutor has

 5     indicated to us.  We are coming to a new area now that was not notified

 6     to us in the proofing note, and that's the area of incidents.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  With respect, Your Honour, the indication was that

 9     the witness was going to explain -- the indication in the proofing note

10     was that the witness was going to explain the basis for her assertion

11     that all of Sarajevo was shelled, as well as Dobrinja, and my question --

12     my original question was, What's the basis for your knowledge?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem with the Bench is that that very issue

14     is not mentioned anywhere in her statement.  Her statement doesn't talk

15     about her knowledge of shelling in Sarajevo.  She talks about how she got

16     injured on the 18th of June, if you look at her statement.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  My question was with respect to the line in her

18     previous testimony as opposed to her statement, Your Honour, line 2840,

19     and it was to clarify the basis of that assertion -- please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just another point while you're referring to line

21     2840 --

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Sorry, page 2840.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You keep referring us to these pages without

24     giving us the lines, and it takes us time to find what you're referring

25     to.  Please, can you, when you make a reference, give us the line as

Page 758

 1     well.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely, Your Honour.  Shall I do that now for

 3     2840?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do that for 2840 and remember to do that in

 5     the future.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, and my apologies.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  The line references for the passage that I was

 9     seeking to clarify, Your Honour, is 2840, lines 16 to 20, and in

10     particular line 19.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Thank you very much, ma'am.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Still, Your Honour, I have to object.

13     I did not give -- get an indication of this in the proofing note, and I

14     believe that the Prosecutor ought to have indicated it in the proofing

15     note.  If the Prosecutor wanted to clarify this sentence concerning the

16     shelling of Sarajevo, she should have informed me of what she would be

17     dealing with on the basis of what the witness had told her.  I don't have

18     that sort of notification from the proofing note.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  May I, Your Honour?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I've asked you to ...

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  Your Honour, note 5 of the proofing note

23     bears the wrong page number of the transcript.  Note 5 says:

24             "Referring to page 2836 of her previous testimony, the witness

25     will explain the basis for her assertion that the whole of Sarajevo was

Page 759

 1     shelled."

 2             Your Honour, I've made another mistake with respect to referring

 3     to the page numbers, and that didn't assist my friend or the Chamber in

 4     this case.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't have your proofing notes, ma'am, and so

 6     we have no assistance at all in that respect.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  No.  And I am just saying mea culpa --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I understand something here?  This is

 9     something that's springing on me for the first time.  Must the Defence be

10     notified of every little point that is going to be raised in the proofing

11     note or must the Defence be given a copy of the testimony of the witness

12     in the previous case and a copy of the statement and the proofing note,

13     to the extent that it summarises whatever proofing was done, and is the

14     indication not that therefore anything that is in those documents can be

15     touched upon?  I need guidance here.  In other words, I'm trying to

16     understand your objection, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the gist of my objection

18     is that if this is a witness testifying under 92 ter, or viva voce, and

19     if the Prosecutor learns of a new incident or a new event that the

20     Prosecutor wishes to raise, we have to be informed of the contents of the

21     incident, of the substance of the incident.  Above all, I believe that we

22     should not only be informed of that but also be informed in advance.

23             If the topic of the Prosecutor is the general situation in

24     Sarajevo and if the witness now wishes to explain that the situation was

25     such and such for these reasons, then I have to be aware of this in

Page 760

 1     advance in order to prepare myself for that, rather than being surprised

 2     by the topic in the courtroom.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Precisely, Mr. Lukic.  My question is for you to

 4     get this advanced notice, must that be made, that notice be made in the

 5     proofing note, or is it sufficient that that point is referred to in any

 6     of the documents that you have received, and any of those documents could

 7     be, indeed, the proofing note, could be the statement of the witness,

 8     could be the testimony of the witness in a previous case?  And I'm

 9     saying -- I'm asking the question:  If the Prosecutor touches on a point

10     that is in any one of these documents but the proofing note, are you

11     saying she's not entitled to do that?  Is that the basis for your

12     objection?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may consult with my colleague,

14     Mr. Guy-Smith.  We have already discussed the matter, and it is an

15     important issue for the future.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, please do.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Our position is the following, Your

19     Honour:  If the Prosecutor wants to, in the course of the examination of

20     the witness, touch upon a qualification of a matter that was -- that

21     concerned the witness and if this matter has not been specifically

22     mentioned in the earlier documents but if the issue appears as a

23     completely novel issue in the proofing note, then the Prosecutor must

24     give us a detailed description of the incident.  If the issue concerns a

25     matter that was dealt with specifically in the earlier statements or

Page 761

 1     testimonies and if, on that basis, we are able to prepare for the

 2     cross-examination, this issue need not be described in the proofing note.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm trying to read the translation of what you've

 4     just said because I'm not understanding what you are saying.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Shall I stop and listen?  Okay, you tell me.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, only because proofing notes, and I

 8     have a kind of a long history.

 9             Essentially, we understand the function of a proofing note to be

10     where the Prosecution has obtained information which is distinct from,

11     different to, or contradictory of information that previously existed

12     either in the form of testimony or a statement.  When such a condition

13     arises, the Prosecution is to inform the Defence so that we have specific

14     information with regard to either a contradiction or actual shift in the

15     witness's testimony --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand you.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- or an expansion of the witness's testimony

18     which could be considered to be distinct.  And the difficulty that we

19     have in this particular case is that -- and I'm not being, for the

20     moment, critical yet because I think there's a distinction in terms of

21     the views that we have about what we call "incidents," and I put that in


23             When a witness now begins to testify about additional incidents

24     which have not been scheduled or otherwise mentioned beforehand,

25     information which we were not privy to before, it's our understanding

Page 762

 1     that this information is information that should be contained in the

 2     proofing notes because it now raises a distinct evidential factual

 3     matter, potentially a distinct evidential conceptual matter that we

 4     beforehand had not been privy to.

 5             I hope that's of some assistance in terms of what our thinking

 6     and understanding is, because what the whole idea here is, is that the

 7     Prosecution, by virtue of the proofing procedure, however you wish to

 8     define that procedure, has obtained new information which actually

 9     constitutes another statement, and that new information is information

10     which we're entitled to in terms of preparing and properly

11     cross-examining a witness.

12             This is the reason why I said beforehand that it would be a good

13     idea to have verbatim copies of proofing notes in case we ever got

14     involved in any disputes about what was going on.  Once again, here's

15     another example where what you have is an expansion of previous

16     testimony, so it's new information.  It's a new statement that we don't

17     have.  And it's coupled --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is new, Mr. Guy-Smith?

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  What's new -- what's new at this point, and I may

20     be taking some liberty with my colleague's -- with my colleague's

21     analysis of this particular factual situation, but what's new, as I

22     understand it, is that the basis of an opinion which is now based upon

23     factual material, as the witness has testified, she received information

24     from certain specific places, is new information for us.  This is

25     information we did not have before, information could be coming from --

Page 763

 1     it could be coming from a sourced place, it could be coming from an

 2     unsourced place, it could be coming from a sourced place that occurred

 3     after many years.  I mean, there are a variety of ways that this could

 4     come to the witness, and I mean no disrespect whatsoever to the witness.

 5             But rather, the fact of the matter is -- the fact of the matter

 6     is with regard to the information itself, if we don't know what that

 7     information is, then we are not in a position to figure out how to deal

 8     with it.  And I hope I'm being clear, but I see that you still have a

 9     question about what I'm saying.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, indeed.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me just ask this one thing.

13             See, the information that I thought we were talking about is the

14     assertion by the witness of the attack of the whole of Sarajevo, and I'm

15     not quite sure whether this is new information or this is information

16     that is already contained in the statement of the witness.  Your

17     colleague says, she referenced it as 2836, she meant to say 2840, lines

18     16 to 20, and what I do find to be new in her line of questioning is when

19     she wants to know how the witness knew that, but not the attack itself.

20     The attack it already -- it's old news.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We're on the exact same page, Your Honour.  We're

22     on the exact same page.  And our submission is this, and I hazard a guess

23     here in terms of what happened during the proofing session:  During the

24     proofing session, either Ms. Edgerton or one of her colleagues said,

25     Listen, you testified to this particular matter, referring to the proper

Page 764

 1     page.  She said, Yes, I did.  They said, Well, how did you get that

 2     information?  What is that testimony based on?  And the witness said at

 3     that point said, This testimony is based upon the following information,

 4     not the -- as you've put it, not the issue of the attack itself, but this

 5     is how I came to that conclusion.  That's information that we don't have.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And that's what is being objected to.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Correct.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Just your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour,

10     while I consult with my colleague, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             MS. EDGERTON:  After having spoken with my colleagues and

15     reviewed my friend's position, and taking into consideration the time

16     we're spending on a matter like this -- actually, can I digress for a

17     moment, Your Honour, before I risk losing it and we move much further.

18     Could I ask that the marked map be admitted as an exhibit.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The marked map is admitted as an exhibit.  May it

20     please be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P123, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             Yes, Madam Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  Taking into consideration everything,

25     including the amount of time we're spending on this kind of issue with

Page 765

 1     this kind of witness, Your Honour, I think this is as far as I will go

 2     with the witness, and I will withdraw the question that my friend is

 3     objecting to.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And when you say "this is as

 5     far as you will go with the witness," what do you mean?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  I mean that my examination of the witness is

 7     concluded now, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Now that you have concluded

 9     your examination-in-chief, can I raise a concern now that I have?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I am taking into account the fact that this

12     objection took long, but for a person who's coming here on a 92 ter

13     basis, I think we've been very long with this witness, and I've been

14     finding the leading of witnesses, 92 ter witnesses, to be rather too long

15     and wondering why don't you just call them viva voce, because of the time

16     that we take with them.  It's just a concern that I'm putting on the

17     table.  I would like the Prosecution to please take care of it because

18     you are the people who are calling the witnesses at this point in the

19     proceedings.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Understood, Your Honour, and we'll take it into

21     account and discuss it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 766

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, good morning.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   My name is Novak Lukic, and I will be putting some questions to

 4     you on behalf of the Defence team for Mr. Perisic.

 5             Throughout the war you lived in Dobrinja, did you not?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I have a question for you arising from your discussions with the

 8     Prosecution.  You said until the time when Nedzarici was liberated, do

 9     you recall when it was?

10        A.   Nedzarici was not liberated, and I can't give you a date because

11     I'm not a military expert and I did not move about a great deal.

12     However, the road that we could use was liberated, although one could use

13     it at one's own risk.  There were trenches that were dug out for

14     pedestrians to use, although you could use a vehicle, but it was shot at.

15        Q.   You didn't say what time period that was.

16        A.   That was sometime in 1993 or 1994 that the trenches were made.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Dobrinja is a residential area, is it not?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Was the entire neighbourhood of Dobrinja under the control of the

20     BH army, and you'll know what I mean by "under the control," or were

21     parts of the Dobrinja area under the control of the Serbian forces?

22        A.   I suppose that your question has to do with whether I could move

23     about.

24        Q.   No, my question was simple.  Was the entire area of Dobrinja --

25        A.   No, the centre of Dobrinja was an area where one could move about

Page 767

 1     freely.  Is that sufficient an answer?  Of course one could move about at

 2     one's own risk.

 3        Q.   We will have to slow down, both of us.  Can you please make a

 4     pause before answering my question.

 5        A.   Very well.

 6        Q.   Were parts of the Dobrinja area specifically named to the effect

 7     that you had Dobrinja 1, 2, 3, and 4?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Will you agree with me that the separation line, and when I say

10     "the separation line," I'm referring to the line dividing the BH army on

11     the one hand and the Serbian army on the other, was some 400 to 500

12     metres away from the Simon Bolivar school where the incident took place?

13        A.   Well, the distance may have been a bit greater than the one you

14     indicated.

15        Q.   Do you know that some 200 metres away from the school there was

16     the command post of the 155th Mountain Brigade of the BH army?

17        A.   The numbers mean -- do not mean anything to me, and I was not

18     aware of that.

19        Q.   Well, were you generally aware of the existence of a command post

20     of a unit of the BH army nearby?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Within the neighbourhood of Dobrinja itself, right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know who Ismet Hadzic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 768

 1        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber who he is?

 2        A.   His role was something that I couldn't tell you really,

 3     precisely.  He was responsible for --

 4        Q.   I'll tell you.  Commander of the 155th Brigade of the BH army.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And it was his command post that was located there that you said

 7     you knew about.

 8        A.   Well, I don't know that.

 9        Q.   At the time or later on, did you hear that on the 15th of June,

10     so several days before the incident, a large offensive was launched by

11     the BH army on the Sarajevo front?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   You don't know at all that there was an offensive taking place at

14     the time in Sarajevo?

15        A.   No, I don't.

16        Q.   Now I'll ask you some matters concerning your statement and

17     testimony.  You said - and that's at page 2844, line 4, Your Honours -

18     that the water pump was the safest in Dobrinja.

19        A.   Yes, that was the safest pump because it was within an enclosure.

20     It was within the compound of the school that had been shelled at the

21     start of the war and only a skeleton of it remained, whereas all the

22     other water pumps were out in the open, although I didn't go there to see

23     them.

24        Q.   Although you didn't go there, you said.  I believe your husband

25     did.

Page 769

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   That pump had never been shelled before that incident.

 3        A.   I don't think so, no, save for the fact that the school itself

 4     was targeted at the beginning.

 5        Q.   After the shell had fallen, you said - and it's transcript page

 6     2656, line 10 - that you did not see anything at that moment, that you

 7     were in a daze, and you managed to crawl away.  So may I conclude that

 8     you did not see who stayed in that area and what happened next?

 9        A.   Of course, not until I came around.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand the question, Mr. Lukic, and I

11     know the witness has answered it.  You said:  "So may I conclude that you

12     did not see who stayed in that area and what happened next?"  What do you

13     mean by "stayed"?  Who remained there after the explosion?  Okay.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness and I understood each

15     other.  Perhaps there is a slight error in the interpretation.  What I

16     meant is, on the spot where the shell fell, she did not see anything

17     happening in that spot.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness marked a map a

20     moment ago, I hope I can have the assistance of the court officer.  It's

21     map 02, 2719.  I would like to have that same map unmarked, an unmarked

22     copy of the coloured map, 65 ter 2719, because I can see the witness

23     finds it easier to use.

24        Q.   Witness, can you see the Sarajevo airport on this map?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 770

 1        Q.   Now you will take the pen you have next to you, and on the screen

 2     itself would you please circle the central area of the airport and mark

 3     it with a 1.

 4        A.   Is this all right?  Can you erase this so I can try again.

 5        Q.   At that time who controlled the airport?

 6        A.   When I was injured?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   The UNPROFOR.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see Butmir in this map?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   Can you place number 2 there.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Will you agree with me that Butmir was controlled by BH forces?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you see Alipasino Polje in this map?

16        A.   I suppose it is here, these buildings here.

17        Q.   Would you mark it with 3.  In fact, it's even written

18     Alipasino Polje.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Who controlled that area?

21        A.   The BH army.

22        Q.   Can you see Mojmilo area and the Mojmilo hill?

23        A.   I can see the writing -- yes, I can see it.

24        Q.   Can you place a 4 there.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 771

 1        Q.   That was also controlled by the BH army?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you see Donji Kotorac?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 5        Q.   Mark it with 5.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Who controlled that area?

 8        A.   I believe it's also the BH army.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I tender this map

10     into evidence?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This map is admitted into evidence.  May it please

12     be given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D4, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions of this

17     witness.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

19             Any re-examination, Madam Edgerton?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Just one small thing, Your Honour, if I can go

21     back up to the -- to page 26, line 20.

22                           Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

23        Q.   Madam, my friend said to you at page 26, line 20:  "After the

24     shell had fallen," and he referred to a page of your previous testimony

25     28 -- it's written in here 2656, but I'm sure he meant 2856, line 10, and

Page 772

 1     he said to you:

 2             "After the shell had fallen, you said that you didn't see

 3     anything at that moment, that you were in a daze and you managed to crawl

 4     away.  So I may conclude that you did not see who stayed in that area and

 5     what happened next."

 6             And your answer was:  "Of course, not until I came around."

 7             Now, do you remember my colleagues and I read back to you your

 8     previous testimony from the Dragomir Milosevic case?  Do you remember

 9     that yesterday?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   Now, at page 2856, lines 9 and 10, you said:  "My eyes went --"

12     in respect of the impact of the shell.

13             "My eyes went blind at that moment, so I didn't see those people.

14     When I was rising to my feet, I did see people around me."

15             Do you remember giving that answer?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And do you stand by that answer today?

18        A.   Yes, I do.  That's approximately what I said to the gentleman,

19     that when I came around, only then did I see.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  No further questions, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Edgerton.

23             Judge?  Judge, questions for the witness?

24             Thank you, ma'am.  This brings us to the end of your testimony.

25     Thank you very much for coming to testify.  You are now excused, and you

Page 773

 1     may stand down.  Please travel well back home.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton?  Mr. Saxon?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  A concern that we should have gone into private

 6     session for her leaving, Your Honour.  She has facial distortion, if

 7     you'll recall.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm so sorry.  How do we rectify that situation at

 9     this stage?

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm told the cameras were away.  But supposing

12     they were not away, how do we -- is there any way we can correct the

13     situation at this stage?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I think Your Honour can, for the broadcast outside

15     of the Tribunal, now order a redaction of that portion of the tape, so

16     that will be taken from the external broadcast.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  It's ordered, then, that we will redact the

18     walking out of the witness from court.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  And I'm not sure anymore what the delay is for the

20     internal broadcast.  It may be too late, but we may have 15 minutes.  I

21     just simply don't recall at this time.

22                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Whatever may have happened, we ask that that part

24     be redacted, please.

25                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 774

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm being told there's just nothing to redact

 2     because her face was not shown at that time.  But I did think that even

 3     if there's nothing to redact, you can have a blank -- a dark colour on

 4     that part, just to show that you meant to do that.  You don't redact only

 5     when there's writing or something.  But I don't know this technology

 6     so --

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't either, but thank you for the extra

 8     precautions you've indicated you wish to take, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you done, Madam Edgerton?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll take my leave now, Your Honour, if we could

13     just have a moment to switch chairs, to return sometime later on this

14     morning.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see Mr. Saxon is standing.  Mr. Saxon, yes?

16             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will lead the next witness,

17     but I do see the time, and perhaps it would make sense now to take the

18     first break before the next witness comes in.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So we don't repeat what happened yesterday.  Let's

20     take the break now and come back at a quarter to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.  Oh, is it Mr. Cannata?  Sorry,

24     Mr. Cannata.  Yes, Mr. Cannata.

25             MR. CANNATA:  Good morning, Your Honours.

Page 775

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning.

 2             MR. CANNATA:  The Prosecution calls Witness Andja Gotovac.

 3             Your Honours, this is a 92 ter witness, for the record.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And there's no protective measures.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  Correct, Your Honours.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS [Interpretation]:  I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             Good morning, ma'am.  You may be seated.

12             Yes, Mr. Cannata.

13             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           WITNESS:  ANDJA GOTOVAC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Examination by Mr. Cannata:

17        Q.   Good morning, madam.  How are you today?

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   Can you please state your full name, place and date of birth, for

20     the record, please.

21        A.   Andja Gotovac.  The 23rd of March, 1930.  Travnik, Vucja Gora.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you give two statements to the Office of the

23     Prosecutor on 12th March 1997 and 17 May 2006?

24        A.   I did, yes.

25             MR. CANNATA:  Can I have 65 ter 9278 on the e-court, please.

Page 776

 1     Thank you.  Can I have it zoomed in at the -- where the signature is at

 2     the bottom on the right.  Yes, that's it.

 3        Q.   Madam Witness, do you see a document on your screen?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   Do you see your signature on the English document?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Was this document read out to you in a language you understand

 8     yesterday?

 9        A.   It was.

10        Q.   Do you confirm that what you say in the document -- in the

11     statement is true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Would you say the same if you were asked to speak about the same

14     events today?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, may I move 65 ter 9278 into evidence,

17     please.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

19     number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P124, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.  Can I have now 65 ter 9279 on the

23     e-court, please.  Can I have it zoomed down to the signature part --

24     okay, that's good.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Madam Witness, do you see a document in front of you?

Page 777

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you see your signature on the document --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5             Was this document read out to you yesterday in a language you

 6     understand?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And do you confirm today that what you say in the statement is

 9     true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge and belief?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Would you say the same statement if you were asked to speak about

12     the same events today?  Would you?

13        A.   Yes.  I may have forgotten some bits in the meantime, but most of

14     it, yes.

15             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, may I tender this document into

16     evidence?  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

18     number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P125, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Madam Witness, do you -- did you testify in -- before this

23     Tribunal in the case, Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic, last year?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Was a copy of your testimony in this case read out to you in a

Page 778

 1     language you understand yesterday?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you also have an opportunity to review a copy of the medical

 4     record attached to that transcript?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, do you confirm that what you said in your testimony in the

 7     case, Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic, is true and accurate, to the

 8     best of your knowledge?

 9        A.   It is true, yes.

10        Q.   Would you give the same answers today if asked the same

11     questions?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

14             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, at this point I would like to tender

15     into evidence 65 ter 9280, which is the transcript from the Dragomir

16     Milosevic case.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 9280 is admitted.  May it please be given

18     an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P126, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             MR. CANNATA:  And also 65 ter 4487, which is the exhibit

22     associated to the transcript, and I would like to tender this exhibit

23     under seal, and I can give you the reasons for that.

24             First of all, it's because this document was admitted under seal

25     in previous proceedings, namely, Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic.

Page 779

 1     Secondly, it's a medical record about the witness and putting this --

 2     putting the exhibit under seal will protect the witness's privacy.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.

 4             65 ter 4487 is admitted into evidence under seal.  May it please

 5     be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P127, under seal, Your

 7     Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10             At this point I would like to read a short summary of the

11     witness's evidence, with your leave.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have the leave.

13             MR. CANNATA:  Witness Andja Gotovac has given evidence in respect

14     of scheduled incident A5 of the indictment, that is, the incident that

15     occurred on 24 May 1995 in Safeta Zajke Street in Sarajevo, when two

16     civilians were killed and at least five, including the witness Gotovac

17     herself, were wounded by the explosion of a projectile.

18             The witness testified at on 24 May 1995, at around 10 a.m., she

19     was sitting outside her house in Safeta Zajke Street when she was hit by

20     the explosion of a projectile.  As a result of such explosion, Witness

21     Gotovac sustained serious injuries.

22             The witness testified that she never saw any Bosnian army

23     soldiers or positions in the vicinity of the area where she -- where the

24     explosion which resulted in her wounding occurred.

25             Your Honour, that completes my examination-in-chief.  Thank you

Page 780

 1     very much.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 3             Mr. Lukic.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam Gotovac, good morning.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   My name is Novak Lukic.  I'm the lawyer who will be putting

 8     questions to you now on behalf of the Defence for Mr. Perisic.

 9             Mr. Prosecutor has just briefly reminded the Trial Chamber of

10     your previous statements and testimonies.  In my understanding, you gave

11     two statements to the OTP, and you testified in the Milosevic case.  On

12     one occasion you gave to the OTP a short statement that you had given to

13     the police.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Let me leave out the proofing for the earlier testimony and the

16     one you had yesterday.  Had you had any other interviews with the Bosnian

17     authorities concerning this incident?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You're a pensioner, aren't you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You used to work in a factory, did you not?  Can you repeat your

22     answer audibly?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Please pause for a second after my question so that the

25     interpretation can run.

Page 781

 1             Can you tell me what it was that you did in the factory.

 2        A.   I worked in the textile factory called Sik.

 3        Q.   That was in Sarajevo, was it not?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you worked there as a textile worker, I presume?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Tell me, did anybody from your family or from your immediate

 8     environment have anything to do with the army?  Was anybody an active

 9     member of the army, an officer, or perhaps one of your neighbours?

10        A.   Well, how should I know who was a member of the army?  None of my

11     family were, since we were mostly women anyway.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In your first statement, that's Exhibit P124, in

13     paragraph 2, you said that you were hit by a modified air bomb.  That's

14     what the statement says.  Can you tell me what is a modified air bomb, or

15     aerial bomb?

16        A.   Yes, I can.  I was in the front yard when I heard the sound of a

17     plane.  There was an explosion and it was -- it was a tube, a barrel, on

18     the ground.  That's what they talked about and that's what I saw.

19        Q.   I can therefore conclude that it was from the stories that you

20     heard that what hit the ground was a modified aerial bomb.

21        A.   Well, I know what a bomb is, but this was a long barrel, and I

22     saw it.  I went past it in my yard as they were taking me to the hospital

23     when I was wounded.

24        Q.   Do you know what an aerial bomb looks like?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat her answer.

Page 782

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can you please --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness has been requested to repeat her

 4     answer.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   -- speak audibly.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ma'am, could you speak audibly.

 8             May I ask that the microphones be brought a little closer to the

 9     witness.  I'm mindful of the injuries of the witness.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You have to speak up a bit.  Relax, Madam Gotovac.  My question

12     was:  Do you know what an aerial bomb looks like?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             In your testimony, at page 4463, line 12, and in your statement,

16     the first statement you gave, in paragraph 4, you said that you had heard

17     stories about the bomb having come from Trebevic, according to some, or

18     from Hresa, according to others.

19        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  I don't know about that.  It was

20     something others were talking about.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may interrupt.

22             Mr. Cannata, my copy of the witness's transcript does not have

23     pages 4456 to 4464.

24             MR. CANNATA:  The reason being because the Prosecution didn't

25     tender that part of the transcript.  The Prosecution only tendered the

Page 783

 1     examination-in-chief of Ms. Gotovac.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But now Mr. Lukic is asking the witness about

 3     something that's on page 4463, which we don't have.

 4             MR. CANNATA:  I can provide you with a hard copy of these

 5     transcripts, if that might assist the Chambers.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  I thought the purpose was that we can

 7     follow, so if we don't have the pages right --

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour, read out the

 9     relevant part to make it easier and to have that portion in the

10     transcript.  The page is 4463, line 2.

11             [In English] "I don't know myself from which direction the

12     projectile came, but I was told that it came from Hresa."

13             Line 12:  Some people say it came from Hresa, and other people

14     say from Trebevic.  I don't know where it came from.  I'm not sure where

15     it came from."

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I saw that the Prosecutor was on his

18     feet.

19             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, I just wanted to put in the record

20     that it was not part of the Prosecution obligation to upload on the

21     e-court portions of the transcripts which the Prosecution didn't seek

22     leave to tender.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Madam Gotovac, did you perhaps hear stories about the distance

Page 784

 1     that the bomb may have covered?

 2        A.   No, I didn't, because at that point all of us, the dead and the

 3     wounded, were taken to the hospital, and later on I didn't hear any such

 4     stories.  In fact, I was avoiding it.

 5        Q.   My question implied whether you had heard such stories later on,

 6     not at that time.  But you have given me your answer.

 7             Your first statement given to the OTP - that's Exhibit 114,

 8     paragraph 3 - says something you said just now, that you heard a sound

 9     which reminded you of the sound of a plane.  You looked up to see who it

10     was, the madman who flew so low, and then you heard the explosion.  Can

11     you tell me:  How much time has elapsed between the time you heard the

12     noise of the plane and the explosion itself?

13        A.   A couple of seconds, I guess.  There was mayhem right away.  It

14     was horrific.  At that point I wasn't able to know what was happening.

15        Q.   But you heard the sound that at first was quite soft and then

16     became louder.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And that's when you -- when that thought crossed your mind.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In your testimony, at page -- rather, paragraph 3 of the same

21     statement, you said that your quarter of town was shelled.  Were you able

22     to distinguish between the sounds of mortars, howitzers, tank shells?

23     Were you able to do that at the time?

24        A.   No.  It was quite difficult.

25        Q.   You also testified at page 4458, line 5, and in the second

Page 785

 1     statement, paragraph 3, you said that there were no snipers active in

 2     your neighbourhood and that you could freely move about the area.

 3        A.   That's correct.  There were none.

 4        Q.   Do we agree that sniper incidents only took place close to the

 5     front line?

 6        A.   They happened throughout the town.  But since we're a bit away,

 7     we're on the edge of town, we didn't have them.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A moment, please.

 9        Q.   I'm talking about your second statement, paragraph 3.  You said:

10              "Our part of town was sufficiently removed from the front lines,

11     and we did not have to worry about snipers."

12             This is what you said.

13        A.   Yes, our quarter of town.

14        Q.   And that's how I concluded that snipers were active in the

15     proximity of the front lines.

16        A.   I don't know how I should explain this to you now.  If you take

17     the main streets, the Titova Street, Grbavica, up there, there were

18     snipers, including Hrasno.

19        Q.   And the Miljacka separated the warring parties, did it not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know that the BH army had snipers, mortars, howitzers?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Mr. Prosecutor has just referred to paragraph 4 of your second

24     statement where you said that there had never been any army in your

25     neighbourhood.  You said that, do you remember?

Page 786

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Is it true that the army passed through your neighbourhood on

 3     their way to Zuc mount where the BH army had positions?

 4        A.   They probably did pass through the area, but since I spent most

 5     of the time in shelter, more time in shelter than I did in my home or in

 6     the street - I was in a four-storey building; we stayed in the shelters

 7     all the time and we only ventured upstairs to get some provisions - I

 8     didn't see them.

 9        Q.   But whoever wanted to go to Zuc through the town, they had to

10     pass through your neighbourhood.

11        A.   Well, our neighbourhood was crossed by the main street, but there

12     were other streets.

13        Q.   You mean in that same quarter of town?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In the immediate proximity of your house, some 100 metres away,

16     there was the TV building, was there not?

17        A.   Yes.  Some 100, 150 metres as the crow flies.

18        Q.   Very well.

19             And nearby there was the power transformer station, was it not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   There was also the Novi Grad municipality building nearby, was it

22     not?

23        A.   Yes, behind the TV building.  There was only one street

24     separating the two.

25        Q.   The wire factory was close by as well, was it not?

Page 787

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you know what it was that they manufactured?

 3        A.   I don't know because I was further back.

 4        Q.   I will not be asking you to speak of the details of the incident.

 5     This is part of the case file.  At any rate you don't know where the

 6     shell that hit came from.  You, yourself, don't know but you only heard

 7     stories about it.  Can you please confirm that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And finally, let me ask you about something else that concerns

10     your second statement.  That's Exhibit 115, paragraph 2.  There, you

11     describe the arrival of CNN journalists.  Upon your return from the

12     hospital, CNN journalists came to visit you at home, and they talked to

13     you and they filmed you, I guess.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You had heard from a relative of yours that he had seen footage

16     of you on the TV.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you recall whether you told the journalists about where the

19     shell had come from?

20        A.   Well, they were quite a few people there, and all of them talked.

21     There was a whole group of us.

22        Q.   You talked about what the stories were about where the shell had

23     come from.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   But you don't recall whether the footage that was made talked

Page 788

 1     about where the shell had come from?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I only cared about getting out of the hospital and

 3     going home.  I didn't care about stories at all.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Madam Gotovac.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have completed my cross-examination

 6     of the witness.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 8             Just for my own edification, Mr. Lukic, you referred here at page

 9     44, line 18, to Exhibit 115.  Exhibit 115, are you talking about exhibits

10     in this case?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that I made a note correctly.

12     I believe that the second statement is Exhibit 115, unless I'm mistaken.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  125.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tried to memorise the numbers, but

15     I made a mistake.  So I meant the second statement, which is now

16     Exhibit 125.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             Any re-examination, Mr. Cannata?

19             MR. CANNATA:  No, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             Judge?  Judge?

22             Ma'am, thank you so much for coming to testify in the Tribunal.

23     This brings us to the conclusion of your testimony.  You are now

24     released.  You may stand down.  Please travel well back home.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 789

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 4             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             Your Honour, the next scheduled witness, Mr. Gicevic, is nearly

 6     ready to begin his testimony, and there is a short proofing note which

 7     has just -- literally just been e-mailed to the Defence.  Of course, they

 8     will need a few minutes to look at that.

 9             What I might recommend, if it's appropriate with the Trial

10     Chamber, is perhaps we could break in a few moments and resume perhaps at

11     noon, as if we would take the third session beginning at 12.00, and then

12     the witness should be ready to go, and we should complete that witness

13     today, and I believe the Defence will be ready to cross-examine as well,

14     if that would be appropriate with the Chamber.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

17             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, before we break, I'm wondering whether,

18     because we have a few moments, whether the Prosecution might be allowed

19     to provide a short oral reply to a response that my colleagues submitted

20     last week related to a pending Prosecution motion related to the

21     testimony of General Wilson.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe we're referring to the issue of

24     unscheduled incidents.

25             MR. SAXON:  That's correct, Your Honour.

Page 790

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  I'm in the Chamber's hands.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber would like to know how you place

 3     yourself in its hands.  Do you have any objections to this?

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't -- I don't believe that I do.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I don't -- based upon the nature of the give

 7     and take of motion work, I don't believe that I will be responding,

 8     unless the Chamber wants me specifically to respond to whatever.  I think

 9     that's kind of the end of the give and take as between the parties.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, I understand you.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  But if you wish to give me another opportunity, I

12     can probably bumble through.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not unless you ask for it, and it's duly

14     considered.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon, you may proceed.

17             MR. SAXON:  Simply two points in reply, Your Honour, to the

18     response that my learned colleagues submitted last week.

19             First of all, the Defence argue that if the Prosecution is

20     permitted to lead this evidence of this particular incident of massive

21     shelling in Sarajevo on the 14th of May, 1992, the Defence will be

22     prejudiced because, according to the Defence, the Defence has not

23     received this information or this notice that this evidence would be led

24     in a timely fashion.

25             On the contrary, about a year and a half ago, I believe it was in

Page 791

 1     February of 2007, Your Honours, in the -- when the Prosecution filed its

 2     Rule 65 summaries, the summary for Mr. Wilson included the following

 3     information:

 4             "He will describe the shelling of Sarajevo and in particular a

 5     bombardment on the order of 5 to 10.000 rounds of artillery that occurred

 6     on 14 May 1992."  Then later on:

 7             "He will testify about notice received by the FRY authorities

 8     from him directly and from other international representatives about the

 9     shelling of civilian targets in Sarajevo."

10             So certainly this particular event was something that the Defence

11     was on notice of.

12             Lastly, the Defence have argued that this evidence will not serve

13     to help prove -- to demonstrate the notice that was available to

14     Mr. Perisic about the events that were occurring in Sarajevo at that time

15     in 1992.

16             First of all, Mr. Wilson will testify, and this is in his prior

17     transcript, that his United Nations team had to redeploy to Belgrade

18     following this period of shelling, which, in the Prosecution's

19     submission, provides -- would provide very strong notice to the

20     authorities in Belgrade of events happening in Sarajevo.

21             And second of all, Mr. Wilson will be able to testify that his

22     colleagues informed him about the attention that this event received in

23     the news media in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24             Those are my only points in reply, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a concern about this motion, Mr. Saxon,

Page 792

 1     which I would like to raise with you, if you can help us.

 2             There was a Rule 73 bis decision by the Pre-Trial Chamber, I

 3     think it was in 2006 or 1997, I can't remember --

 4             MR. SAXON:  15 May 2007.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  15 May 2007, which clearly told the Prosecution

 6     how to go about filing these reports, and it indicated that the

 7     Prosecution must give four weeks' notice -- wait a minute.  It indicated

 8     by when these reports were supposed to be filed, isn't it so?

 9             MR. SAXON:  That is correct, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't have a copy of it before me, so I'm trying

11     to talk from memory, if I can.

12             MR. SAXON:  That is correct, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And it doesn't seem as if they were filed during

14     the stipulated period of time, were they?

15             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour is correct.  If I may, though, by way of

16     explanation, it is simply --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me establish the facts before you explain.

18             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's stipulated by when these filings shall be

20     made.  This filing comes well over a year after that stipulation.  It

21     comes without any explanation why it comes so late.  There is no good

22     cause shown why it should be -- it should be coming at this stage.

23     There's no prior for -- condemnation for the late filing.  I find -- and

24     furthermore, the filing, if that order, I remember it well, says that

25     whatever filing must come, must come on four weeks' notice.  This filing

Page 793

 1     comes less than four weeks -- less than four weeks' notice, again without

 2     any explanation.

 3             I am left with the impression that it doesn't seem as if the

 4     orders of the Trial Chamber or the Pre-Trial Chamber mean anything to the

 5     Prosecution.  Am I wrong in this impression?

 6             MR. SAXON:  With great respect, I believe that you are wrong,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Please correct me.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, with respect to these motions, for

10     example, with respect to Mr. Wilson, the Prosecution filed this motion as

11     soon as it was clear that Mr. Wilson was going to be available to testify

12     this week.  It has simply been extremely difficult for the Prosecution to

13     schedule its witnesses four weeks in advance and to, if I may speak in

14     the vernacular, to nail down its witness schedule that far in advance.

15     So as soon as the Prosecution was sure that these witnesses would be

16     coming - Mr. Wilson and also Mr. Bell - then the Prosecution filed its

17     motion, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that it?

19             MR. SAXON:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You haven't demonstrated where I'm wrong.

21             MR. SAXON:  Well --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me -- I said to you, even in your filing of

23     your notice to call these witnesses, you're not addressing the issues --

24     you're not addressing your violations of the order of 2007.  Now, I

25     understand that you may not be able to nail your witnesses -- the

Page 794

 1     scheduling of your witnesses in a way that you would like to, but at

 2     least I would like you to give us that kind of explanation in your motion

 3     when you ask to call the witness, not to give it orally now when the

 4     Bench is asking you.  And therefore I still ask my question:  I get the

 5     impression that the rulings of the Trial Chamber and the Pre-Trial

 6     Chamber don't seem to mean much to the Prosecution, and am I wrong in

 7     that?

 8             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, again with great respect, I believe that

 9     position is not correct.  If the Prosecution has done anything to suggest

10     otherwise, then I apologise on behalf of the Prosecution.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But are you saying, am I wrong in suggesting that

12     not only did you not comply with the ruling of May 2007, but you also do

13     not give any explanation why you failed to comply and ask for leave then

14     to be allowed to act and your action be regarded as if it was -- it was

15     in compliance with that order.  Did you do so in your motion?

16             MR. SAXON:  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You didn't.  Am I wrong, then, in my impression?

18             MR. SAXON:  Again, with great respect, Your Honour, if --

19     obviously that was an oversight.  But the very fact that the Prosecution

20     filed these motions as soon as it could is actually, Your Honour, it's an

21     indication that we are doing our best to comply.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not sure whether we're talking at

23     cross-purposes.  I understand that.  All I'm saying is, as you did file

24     those motions, you were aware of the decision of the Pre-Trial Chamber of

25     May 2007, and you were aware that your actions were in violation of

Page 795

 1     those, but you don't seem to say in your motion, I'm aware that I've been

 2     ordered this way; I've not been able to comply and I ask you to please

 3     condone my failure for the following reasons.  You're not saying so in

 4     your motion.

 5             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour is correct, yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'll ask you a fourth time for you to accept.

 7     That's my concern, you see.  I just find that the Prosecution doesn't

 8     seem to pay any attention to the rulings of the Trial Chamber, or even

 9     the Pre-Trial Chamber, and thinks that -- and, besides that ruling, you

10     actually have another remedy under Rule 73 bis (F) which you could have

11     brought in and given good cause why you want to expand on your list,

12     notwithstanding the ruling of May 2007.  You didn't adopt that route

13     either.

14             Having said that, I've heard your arguments.  Thank you very

15     much.

16             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said we'll come back at 12?

18             MR. SAXON:  At 12, Your Honour, if that would be all right.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The thing is -- okay.  We'll work it out.  We'll

20     take a break and come back at 12.00.  Court adjourned.

21                           --- Recess taken at 11.29 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.04 p.m.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I suggest that now that we're starting at 12

24     instead of 12.30, we go up to half past 1.00 and break for the day.  So

25     we'll go for one and a half hours this time instead of 1 hour, 15

Page 796

 1     minutes.  Is that okay?  Thank you.

 2             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 3             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Ms. April Carter will lead the next

 4     witness.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 6             MS. CARTER:  May it please the Court, the office of the

 7     Prosecution calls Alen Gicevic.  Mr. Gicevic is a 92 ter witness, and he

 8     also has given evidence in the Dragomir Milosevic case in respect of

 9     scheduled incident B11, occurring on 3 March 1995.  Witness Gicevic,

10     among others, was shot while riding on a tram in Sarajevo.  The witness

11     testified that the shots came from the direction of Grbavica, a Bosnian

12     Serb-held position, and that there were no military targets where the

13     witness was shot.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, ma'am.  While you're on your feet,

15     Madam Carter, Mr. Gicevic is not a protected witness, does not have any

16     protective measures at all?

17             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             Good afternoon, sir.  You may be seated.

25             Yes, Madam Carter.

Page 797

 1                           WITNESS:  ALEN GICEVIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Examination by Ms. Carter:

 4        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, you arrived at the Tribunal just this morning; is

 5     that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   However, this morning we did have the opportunity to meet, and we

 8     went over your previous testimony in the Dragomir Milosevic case; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. CARTER:  For the record, Your Honours, the transcript bears

12     the 65 ter number of 9288.

13        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, you had the opportunity to read through that

14     transcript with a translator by the name of Ivana Manic; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And in going through that transcript, there were a few

17     clarifications that needed to be made; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Specifically, there was a concern at page 1556, at lines 3 and 4,

20     that it had indicated that the tram that you were travelling on was going

21     from east to west, and you clarified later in the transcript, at 1556,

22     lines 23 and 24, and again today, that, in fact, that tram was travelling

23     the directions of west to east.  Is that correct?

24        A.   It's correct.  The tram went from the west to the east.

25        Q.   There was also a concern at transcript page 1564, lines 6 to 9,

Page 798

 1     in regards to the containers that were placed at certain intersections in

 2     Sarajevo.  When you indicate that the containers were three to four deep,

 3     you're referring to containers being stacked upon each other, three to

 4     four high; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And lastly, at transcript page 1565, line 6, there's a term used,

 7     "Salvation Route."  Now, you have indicated that this is not a term that

 8     you had used, and you had used solely "Route of Life," which comes just

 9     before it; is that correct?

10        A.   I said it was the "Road of Life."  It's a minor difference, for

11     those who know the terminology.

12        Q.   So you're indicating the term is "Road" as opposed to "Route of

13     Life."  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   After these clarifications have been made, do you accept that if

16     you were asked those same questions today, that your answers would be the

17     same?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would seek at this time

20     admittance of 65 ter number 9288.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 9288 is admitted into evidence.  May it

22     please be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P128, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25             While we're there, Madam Carter, the Chamber hasn't been provided

Page 799

 1     with the 65 ter copies.  Is there any reason for that?

 2             MS. CARTER:  One moment, Your Honour.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, the 65 ter exhibits were released into

 5     e-court, but you're correct, we did not provide a hard copy of those

 6     documents.  I do have a hard copy of the transcript, for the ease of the

 7     Court, that I can certainly provide, but I would have to seek a break in

 8     order to provide hard copies of the remainder.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We would rather not break, Madam Carter.  Proceed.

10     But at a convenient time, if you can provide us with the copies, please.

11             MS. CARTER:  Certainly, Your Honour, they will be provided

12     momentarily.

13        Q.   Sir, when you went over the transcript, there were also seven

14     exhibits that were admitted within the transcript that we had gone

15     through as well; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And specifically, those exhibits are 65 ter number 9282, which

18     was Prosecution Exhibit 163 in the Milosevic case, which was your witness

19     statement of 15 November 1995; 65 ter number 9283, previously admitted as

20     P164 in the Milosevic case, your witness statement of 21 April 2006; 65

21     ter number 9284, exhibited as P165 in Milosevic, which is a map marked by

22     you; 65 ter 9285, previously Exhibit P166 in the Milosevic case, an

23     additional map marked by you; 65 ter number 9286, previously P167, a map

24     marked by you; 65 ter 9287, previously Exhibit P168, a map marked by you;

25     and finally, 65 ter exhibit 4380, which in the Milosevic case was D23 but

Page 800

 1     has been exhibited in this case as P36, which is the criminal

 2     investigation file for the incident of 3 March 1995.  Are you adopting

 3     these exhibits as well?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution seeks to

 6     tender 65 ter numbers 9282 through 9287, and seek admittance.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  65 ter 9282 through 9287 are admitted

 8     into evidence.  May they please be given exhibit numbers.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 09282 will be Exhibit P129, Your Honours;

10     65 ter 09283 will be Exhibit P130; 65 ter 09284 will be Exhibit P131; 65

11     ter 09285 will be Exhibit P132; 65 ter 09286 will be Exhibit P133; and 65

12     ter 09287 will be Exhibit P134, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, madam.

14             Yes, Madam Carter.

15             MS. CARTER:

16        Q.   As your previous transcript was quite complete, I want to cover

17     only two topics with you here today.  The first, I want to discuss with

18     you the location of the sniping incident, and the last thing I want to

19     discuss with you is the route -- excuse me, the "Road of Life."

20             MS. CARTER:  If I can bring up 65 ter number 8598, please.

21        Q.   Sir, in your previous testimony, you did get the opportunity to

22     mark certain locations within Sarajevo relevant to the sniping; however,

23     this is a picture that is far more detailed, as it's giving a much

24     tighter picture of the site of the sniping incident.  So if you can

25     please mark on this exhibit where specifically the sniping incident

Page 801

 1     occurred, if you can circle it and then mark it with a 1.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   In your previous testimony at page 1570, the Defence counsel in

 4     that case had tried to identify certain positions that may have been

 5     military in nature, and you spoke of a number of these buildings

 6     surrounding the site of the sniping incident and were explaining their

 7     civilian function, so I'd like to have this exhibit marked with some of

 8     those buildings.

 9             First, can you identify with a number 2 the Holiday Inn.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Okay.  Now, you put an X over it, so you're indicating that the

12     yellow building to the top middle of the screen is the Holiday Inn, and

13     you're marking it number 2; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.  That's the Holiday Inn hotel.

15        Q.   Can you now identify and mark the philosophy building with a 3.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Okay.  Can you identify and mark the museum with a 4.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Okay.  Are you aware of any of these buildings, the Holiday Inn,

20     the philosophy building, or the museum, being used in any sort of

21     military function?

22        A.   As far as I know, there were no military installations there.

23        Q.   Where was the closest military installation to the site of your

24     sniping incident?

25        A.   Within the compound of the Marsal Tito barracks, and that is this

Page 802

 1     vacant area where buildings had been earlier.  That's where the UNPROFOR

 2     was based.  And a bit to the left, to the west, was the traffic police

 3     building.  You cannot see it in this picture because it's further to the

 4     left, after the picture.

 5        Q.   And I see that you've marked the Marsal Tito barracks with an X

 6     and a 5 denoting that distance.  Can you tell me, in metres, how far away

 7     were the barracks from where you were shot?

 8        A.   That could be approximately 400, 500 metres.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MS. CARTER:  I would like to have this exhibit marked into

11     evidence.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 8598 is admitted into evidence.  May it

13     please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P135, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MS. CARTER:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Sir, you also had spoken of this "Road of Life," and that was at

18     transcript 156423.  In order to explain a little bit further to the

19     Court, I'm going to have 65 ter number 8600 brought up.  But in the

20     interim, can you please explain to the Court what was the "Road of Life,"

21     and what was the significance to the people of Sarajevo?

22        A.   The "Road of Life" was the road used by people for their own

23     traffic, for transport, and it was safer than any other communication.

24     It was safer than anything else, but it was not absolutely safe because

25     it was also the target of sniping.

Page 803

 1             Outside that road, in front of the positions of the Army of

 2     Republika Srpska, there was a large number of buildings which provided

 3     cover for the people and the vehicles that used the road.  All the other

 4     roads were much less safe and much closer to the separation lines.

 5        Q.   When we spoke earlier, you had indicated that this was one of the

 6     only roads in Sarajevo that could be travelled by foot; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, but even that did not have absolute protection, because at

 8     intersections and crossroads, you couldn't cover all the points to

 9     guarantee safety for the traffic of people and vehicles.

10        Q.   Okay.  How was food and water brought in for the people of

11     Sarajevo?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think this is going out of the scope of 92 ter.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ms. Carter.

15             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, the question is about the "Road of

16     Life."  I'm just trying to get for the Court a clearer picture about the

17     import of this route to both this witness as well as to the people of

18     Sarajevo.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then ask about the "Road of Life," Madam Carter,

20     not about food and water.

21             MS. CARTER:

22        Q.   Outside of the people commuting along this road, was this road

23     used for any other purpose?

24        A.   Since it was the only relatively safe road, it was used for all

25     possible purposes.

Page 804

 1        Q.   Can you name purposes, other than the commuting of the people,

 2     that this road was used for.

 3        A.   Well, the traffic of people and goods, to the extent that it was

 4     possible to transport things from the west to the east at the time.

 5        Q.   Now, 65 ter 8600 is now before you, and I would ask you to mark

 6     along this photograph in blue the route of life -- excuse me, the "Road

 7     of Life."

 8        A.   This is just the shortest section of this so-called "Road of

 9     Life," which ran for another 7 or 8 kilometres to the west.

10        Q.   In addition to the "Road of Life," I would like you to mark in

11     red, if possible, the front line in Sarajevo.

12        A.   This is approximately up to the bridge on Vrbanja river and to

13     the left of the Jewish cemetery and on to the east.

14             MS. CARTER:  I would like to seek to admit this exhibit into

15     evidence.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 8600 is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.  Sorry, the marked 8600 is admitted

18     into evidence.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P135, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

21             MS. CARTER:  At this time, Your Honour, the Prosecution has no

22     further questions.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, ma'am.

24             Sorry, let me just find something out.  You said P135, Madam

25     Registrar, not 136?

Page 805

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  135, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what was 65 ter 8958?  What exhibit is that?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour is correct.  It would be -- 8958

 4     would be 135, and P100 marked by the witness will be Exhibit P136.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I see your learned friend still on her

 9     feet.  I thought she had said she had finished her examination, but yes,

10     ma'am.

11             MS. CARTER:  I did, Your Honour.  I just wanted for clarification

12     of the record, the 65 ter 8598 that's been annotated by this witness is

13     what I was seeking as Exhibit 135.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  65 ter 8598 as annotated would be P135.

15             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Gicevic.  My name is

18     Novak Lukic, and on behalf of the Defence of Mr. Perisic, I will question

19     you briefly.  I know you arrived recently and went straight to your

20     proofing session, so you must be tired.

21             I understood when I read your previous testimony you were going

22     from Cengic Vila towards Bascarsija, and looking at the picture it's from

23     left to right; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, it's correct.

25        Q.   And as you were standing in the tram, Marindvor was to your left,

Page 806

 1     and the Jewish cemetery and Vraca was on your right side.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Please wait for a second after my question so we don't overlap.

 4     There is interpretation involved.

 5             A moment ago you drew a red line to mark the separation line.  In

 6     fact, it's the Miljacka river.  The Miljacka river was the separation

 7     line between the territory controlled by the BH army and the territory

 8     controlled by the VRS in this photograph; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   Can we agree that from Miljacka river, from that separation line,

11     to the Zmaja Od Bosna Street where the tram was running, there is 200 or

12     300 metres, roughly.

13        A.   Roughly, yes.

14        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, you did not see where the bullet that hit you came

15     from.

16        A.   No, I did not see that.

17        Q.   But you supposed, and that's transcript page 1557 from the

18     Dragomir Milosevic case, what the location could be, so you drew one

19     location, one highrise building, 12 to 13 floors, and the other possible

20     location is the Metalka company building.

21        A.   Yes, I designated those two as possibilities.

22        Q.   And you designated them, as you said in your first statement

23     given to the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY, on page 1559, you said

24     the same thing, you designated them that way because you said those were

25     the locations of the most notorious Serbs.

Page 807

 1        A.   I didn't say anything about the most notorious Serbs.  I said

 2     that sniper bullets could have come from that side.  I never used the

 3     word "notorious" in reference to Serbs.

 4        Q.   Your first statement to the OTP, 15 November 1995, we don't have

 5     the same numbering of paragraphs but I believe it's the ninth sentence

 6     where you say, quote:

 7             "The Chetniks held those positions.  When I say 'Chetniks,' I

 8     mean the worst part of the Serb population."

 9        A.   And it is completely different to what you said before.

10        Q.   You are right.  So to the best of your knowledge, those positions

11     were held by people to whom you referred as Chetniks and to whom you

12     referred as the most notorious part of the Serb population.

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Judge Robinson asked you - that's at page 1559, line 10 - if you

15     had a specific reason to believe that the shots were fired from that

16     location and you said that you could only assume that the shots came from

17     those buildings because they were easily to be seen from the tram; is

18     that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

20        Q.   A moment ago you indicated on the map certain buildings that

21     Madam Prosecutor asked you about, and you indicated the location of the

22     museum building and of the faculty of philosophy building, I believe.

23     You said that, to your knowledge, the BH army did not have its positions

24     there.

25        A.   To my knowledge, no, they did not.

Page 808

 1        Q.   At any rate the buildings were situated in the territory under

 2     the control of the BH army.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   To your right, that's to say, that particular area was to your

 5     right in relation to the direction in which you were moving.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Reading the transcripts from your earlier testimony, I realised

 8     that earlier on, some ten months before the incident, you were a member

 9     of the army.  You were there as a nurse.

10        A.   I was a medical corps driver and, when necessary, also as a

11     nurse, and in July 1994 I was demobilised.

12        Q.   Therefore, you cannot claim with any certainty where the BH army

13     positions were at the time when you were wounded.

14        A.   No, I could not, but between the building and the tram that was

15     in motion, there were UNPROFOR APCs, and, in fact, the bullets would have

16     to pass through these APCs before hitting the passengers in the tram.

17        Q.   And were these positions also along the route of the tram?

18        A.   Yes.  On all the intersections that I marked on the map there

19     were UNPROFOR APCs to be seen.

20        Q.   Let me just clarify my question.  When the Prosecutor asked you

21     at page 59, line 1, in English, the question was as follows:  In relation

22     to the museum, the holiday inn building and the faculty of philosophy

23     building, whether there were facilities that had a military function.

24     And you answered, as it was entered in the English language, there were

25     no buildings that were military instillations.  That's how it was entered

Page 809

 1     in the English version.  To make it clear, in your view, you believed

 2     that there were no members of the BH army positioned along those

 3     facilities.  That's your opinion, is it not?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   From the position where you stood in the tram, and you were

 6     moving in such a way that you were facing the right bank of the Miljacka,

 7     could you see both of the buildings of the museum and the faculty of

 8     philosophy from your vantage point?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I will put a couple of questions to you in order to clarify the

11     details concerning the shot or the shots.  All this time you have been

12     claiming, to put it that way, that there were several shots, that you

13     heard two to three shots.

14        A.   I kept saying that it seemed to me that I heard two or three

15     shots.

16        Q.   Perhaps I'm being too specific in my question, but I'd like to

17     know the following:  Do you remember whether, in addition to these two to

18     three shots, any sounds of the pane smashing and so on?

19        A.   Well, perhaps there were two shots and then the third sound was

20     that of the window-pane smashing, or perhaps it was a different ratio.

21     But it's very difficult to clearly distinguish all these sounds when one

22     is being shot at.

23        Q.   At the time you were in the company of your girlfriend.

24        A.   Yes, who is my wife today.

25        Q.   Well, I did not wish to inquire in such great detail.  You went

Page 810

 1     to the hospital with her, did you not?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you discuss the number of shots fired later on with her?  Did

 4     you ask her how many shots she had heard?

 5        A.   Well, she is listening to our discussion right now, and she also

 6     believed that there were two to three shots fired.  Women, by nature, are

 7     more fearful so I guess she managed to gather less of the reality than I

 8     did.

 9        Q.   In addition to the documents, the criminal file of the case was

10     also entered into evidence, which includes, among other things, the

11     statement of Asima Bacvic; is that right?

12        A.   Bacvic.

13        Q.   Sorry, Asima Bacvic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is to be found,

15     that is to say, the criminal file, under number 35.  I don't know if we

16     can see that in e-court.  In the B/C/S, 00331681 is the number.  P36.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it P36 or P35, sir?  What are you asking for?

18     You said 36 or 35?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  P36 is the criminal file

20     related to the incident of the 3rd of March, 1995.  The page in the B/C/S

21     that I have is 03316381, although I do know that the court officer

22     doesn't find the ERN numbers helpful.  I think it's page -- either 23 or

23     24 of the document.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just interject while we're looking for

25     the page.  Could you please also remember to pause a little bit after the

Page 811

 1     witness has answered so that you don't overlap, and could you also do the

 2     same, sir, pause after the question has been put to you so that you don't

 3     overlap and give the interpreters an opportunity to interpret.

 4             Yes, Madam Carter.

 5             MS. CARTER:  If it would be of assistance to the Court, Your

 6     Honour, the English page that is being spoken of, there are multiple

 7     translations within P36.  The translation being spoken of right now is

 8     0331-6361-1, at page 23.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is page 1 of the document,

10     in fact.

11        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, I will read this out to you, a portion of the

12     statement given by your wife.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have the English version, and can

14     we now have the Serbian version as well so that Mr. Gicevic can have the

15     benefit of it.  Thank you.  No, that's not the one.  That one belongs to

16     another person.  A page earlier, please.  Two pages ahead of that one in

17     the Serbian version.  There it is.  Thank you.

18        Q.   Do you see it somewhere in the middle?

19             "When the vehicle was close to the museum, I heard the bullet hit

20     the tram and all the passengers hauled themselves onto the ground."

21             Based on this statement, I see that this is her statement, and I

22     know from the previous trial that the driver had also said that he had

23     heard one bullet only.  Is it possible that you made a mistake?

24        A.   It is possible, but I do stand by what I said earlier, that there

25     were two to three shots or hits.

Page 812

 1        Q.   While we have the statement on the screen, let me indicate that I

 2     noticed another issue that is different in your wife's statement from

 3     what you said.  You said that you left the tram and went to the hospital

 4     on foot.  First you said that you took a taxi, and then you corrected

 5     yourself and said that you went there on foot.

 6        A.   I looked at the statement this morning, and it was quite

 7     illogical for me to proceed from the taxi rank, which was close to

 8     Zagreb Hospital, to take a taxi and cross the distance which was only of

 9     some 100 metres.  It was a very short distance.

10        Q.   So you stand by what you said?

11        A.   Yes, that we took Albanska Street from Zagreb Hotel, or rather

12     from the tram stop, and reached the hospital on foot.

13        Q.   So you believe that she made a mistake there?

14        A.   Well, I don't think that she herself claims that.

15        Q.   Well, look at it.  Down there at he bottom it says:

16             " ... at the taxi rank close to the Zagreb Hotel, a taxi driver

17     got us in a car and took us to the state hospital where she was treated,"

18     and so on and so forth, "where Alen was treated," and so on and so forth.

19        A.   I really don't remember.

20        Q.   I can tell you what my case is.  I doubt, on the basis of the

21     other statements, that there were more shots.  I believe that there was

22     one shot which hurt somebody in the tram.  In that sense, let me remind

23     you that when -- at page 1580, Judge Robinson asked you if you remembered

24     how that other individual was seated, the one that you noticed was also

25     injured in the tram, you said literally, page 15 -- line 58, you said

Page 813

 1     that your recollection of it was hazy or vague.  Do you recall that?

 2        A.   Well, that was probably the case.  If you asked me where various

 3     individuals were seated in the tram that I rode on yesterday, I would

 4     probably have difficulty in recalling it all.

 5        Q.   Can it be, then, that your recollection concerning the number of

 6     shots fired was also hazy?  Let me put this hypothesis to you:  Since you

 7     were injured and you saw another individual being injured, is it possible

 8     that on the basis of this you concluded that there were several shots?

 9        A.   Initially, I said that there were one to two shots.  Then I said

10     that I wasn't sure whether these were two shots or whether there was also

11     another sound of items smashing, and that's how I ended up saying that

12     there were, I believed, two to three shots.

13        Q.   You were shot to your left upper leg; is that right?

14        A.   A bit above the knee.

15        Q.   The bullet stayed in your leg, and it was taken out only a couple

16     of days later.

17        A.   Yes.  There was no exit wound, but it was only the bullet case.

18        Q.   Is that what you were told in the hospital?

19        A.   It's not that I was told only.  I was given the bullet case, to

20     take it home, and I eventually threw it away.

21        Q.   There's one other thing I'd like to know.  You said that you were

22     a nurse or an orderly and a driver.  Where was it, in the military

23     hospital, at the time that you were mobilised?

24        A.   No, I did not work in the military hospital.

25        Q.   How did you come to know that the media representatives were

Page 814

 1     always in the military hospital?

 2        A.   Because my sister and my father-in-law worked in the military

 3     hospital.  I know that always at the Kosevo Military Hospital or, rather,

 4     outside of the hospital, there were international news crews,

 5     journalists, waiting to take statements.

 6        Q.   Were you in a position to follow the news over the media in

 7     Sarajevo?

 8        A.   During the rare moments when we had electricity, yes.

 9        Q.   Were you informed of the shelling and sniping of the Grbavica

10     area by the BH army from the media?  Did you ever hear anything of the

11     sort from the media?

12        A.   No, I did not have occasion to.  We only listened to the local

13     media.

14        Q.   You will agree with me that the local media did not want to

15     report on possible actions taken against civilians on the other side.

16        A.   It's quite possible, but I don't know.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my

19     examination.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

21             Madam Carter, any re-examination?

22             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             Judge?  Judge?

25             Mr. Gicevic, this brings us to the end of your testimony.  Thank

Page 815

 1     you very much for coming to testify.  You are now excused.  You may go

 2     home.  You may stand down.  And please travel well back home.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter?

 7             MR. SAXON:  Excuse me, Your Honour, that concludes the

 8     Prosecution's witnesses for today.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

10             Do you want to be excused, Madam Carter?

11             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are excused.  Thank you very much.

13             The Trial Chamber is now going to give -- may the Chamber please

14     move into private session.

15 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             This is now an oral order concerning the motions by the

19     Prosecution with respect to Mr. Martin Bell and Mr. John Wilson.

20             On the 10th of October, 2008, and on the 13th of October, 2008,

21     the Prosecution filed respectively a motion for leave to lead evidence of

22     unscheduled incidents from Witness Martin Bell, with annexes, and a

23     motion for leave to lead evidence of unscheduled incidents from Witness

24     Brigadier General John Wilson.  The Defence filed its two responses to

25     the motions on the 21st of October, 2008.

Page 816

 1             The Prosecution motions were filed pursuant to the Rule 73 bis

 2     decision of 15th May 2007, which requires the Prosecution to apply for

 3     leave of the Trial Chamber to lead evidence of unscheduled incidents upon

 4     a showing that such evidence is essential to prove an important aspect of

 5     the case at least four weeks prior to the scheduled testimony.

 6             The Trial Chamber recalls that this time limit was not respected

 7     by the Prosecution.  The Trial Chamber notes that the Defence has agreed

 8     not to raise objection on this ground for these two instances; however,

 9     the Trial Chamber further notes that this fact does not prevent the Trial

10     Chamber from dismissing the motions on this ground.

11             Both motions were filed less than three weeks prior to the

12     scheduled testimony.  This is in direct violation of paragraph 17 of Rule

13     73 bis decision of 15th May 2007, wherein the Pre-Trial Chamber ordered

14     that "the Prosecution must file a motion requesting the leave of the

15     Trial Chamber to lead such evidence at least four weeks in advance of the

16     scheduled testimony."

17             The Trial Chamber notes the Prosecution's arguments in its oral

18     reply of today regarding the difficulties faced in scheduling the witness

19     order.  The Trial Chamber, however, finds that scheduling difficulties

20     are irrelevant when it comes to compliance with an order of the Pre-Trial

21     or Trial Chamber.  It would have been appropriate for the Prosecution to

22     at least file a notice that it intended to lead evidence of unscheduled

23     incidents on four weeks -- four weeks in advance, considering that in the

24     Prosecution's own admission, it was aware of the scope of these witness

25     testimonies since at least February 2007, when the 65 ter summaries were

Page 817

 1     filed.

 2             The Trial Chamber notes the Prosecution has not provided any good

 3     cause or, in fact, any explanation at all for this violation of the

 4     Pre-Trial Chamber's order.  The Trial Chamber therefore denies the

 5     Prosecution motion to lead the proposed evidence of Mr. Bell and

 6     Mr. Wilson on unscheduled incidents.

 7             That concludes the oral decision.

 8             Are there any housekeeping matters that any of the parties would

 9     like to raise before we take an adjournment?  Mr. Saxon?  Mr. Lukic?

10             My schedule of the trial still says that we are going into

11     Courtroom III tomorrow.  Does anybody have an updated schedule that says

12     we are coming to Courtroom II?

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  May the Chamber please move

15     into open session.

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             The matter stands adjourned to tomorrow, Courtroom II, 9.00 in

20     the morning.  Court adjourned.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.55 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

23                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.