Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1619

 1                           Tuesday, 18 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everybody in the courtroom.  This is case IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor

10     versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             And could we have appearances for the day, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Good morning, counsel.

15     Mark Harmon, Carolyn Edgerton, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

17             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And for the Defence.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Daniela Tasic, Chad

20     Mair, and Milos Androvic, who are assisting myself, Gregor Guy-Smith and

21     Novak Lukic, for the Defence.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23             Just before we call the witness, I thought I must raise one or

24     two housekeeping matters which the Chambers would like to hear the views

25     of the parties about.  It doesn't have to be today.  If you're not ready,

Page 1620

 1     you can think about it and come back to us.

 2             First thing is wether or not the parties due intend going on a

 3     site visit, and if so, at what stage of the trial.

 4             Mr. Harmon.

 5             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, we will think about that and get back

 6     to Your Honours very quickly with our views.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, Your Honours, we would like

 9     to express our position with regard to this matter very soon.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Then I will not ask you how

11     soon.

12             The next item that I wanted to talk about relates to the 98 bis

13     stage of the case.  In case Rule 98 bis will be made use of, depending on

14     what the Defence thinks about the case at that time, and if we should

15     move on to the Defence case, it is the Chamber's desire to shorten the

16     break as much as possible at that stage.  It is the belief of this

17     Chamber that it shouldn't be -- it shouldn't take a whole motion to argue

18     why a 98 bis ruling must be made.  It can be just mentioned very quickly

19     what it is that is alleged has not been proven and what counts, if any,

20     or if the whole case must fall apart.  The Chamber will then take a day

21     or two to decide; and, quickly thereafter, if we have to go into the

22     Defence case, move on speedily into the Defence case.  It shouldn't take

23     more than -- that whole break shouldn't take more than a week.

24             Are there any comments that the parties would like to make on

25     that?

Page 1621

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With regard to the 98 bis motion rule

 2     and the proposals of the sides, well, perhaps I can reserve the right to

 3     express my position later on.  My colleague Mr. Smith and myself will

 4     discuss the matter.  The Defence agrees and we think it would be good for

 5     this to be made in oral form -- the arguments to be made in an oral form.

 6     And given the scope of the Prosecution case that we have before us, I

 7     believe that we will now need a certain period of time to prepare for

 8     these oral submissions, and I believe that the Prosecution will also have

 9     oral submissions to make.  But I really believe that for the preparation

10     of the Defence case, as it now stands, and for the preparation of

11     Mr. Guy-Smith's case and in the light of the experience we have from

12     previous cases, I do believe that we will need, well, a significant

13     period of time, a significantly lengthy period of time that you referred

14     to, Judge Moloto.

15             Why do I say this?  Well, because we in the courtroom are all

16     aware of the schedule planned for the Prosecution case which shows that

17     the case will be a lengthy one because of the testimony and the

18     transcripts that we have to deal with and the voluminous documents that

19     will be tendered into evidence, or that we expect to be tendered into

20     evidence.

21             And, secondly, Your Honours, you are well aware of the fact that

22     this Defence team was formed fairly rapidly immediately prior to the

23     commencement of the trial.  We've really been doing our utmost to keep up

24     with everything, and this was perhaps not possible in the pre-trial

25     phase.  We've been doing everything we can to deal with the trial.  I

Page 1622

 1     have to say that the fact that we had a break in October has been of

 2     assistance to us, and the fact that we're not sitting on Friday is also

 3     of assistance because we really don't have a single weekend that we can

 4     use for rest, and I can say this quite openly.

 5             I don't expect that this team will be able to rest for a single

 6     day even in the course of the Christmas period; and in the course of the

 7     summer, regardless of the stage we arrive at, I think we will be working

 8     continually in order to prepare for the Defence case.  But given the

 9     means at our disposal --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me interrupt you, Mr. Lukic.  We've moved a

11     little far away from what we're talking about.  We're talking about the

12     98 bis now.  Can I suggest that you come back to the Chamber with what

13     you suggest would be a reasonable time for the -- to give you time to

14     prepare.  That's the proposal of the Chamber.  I would like you to come

15     back with your proposal.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I apologise.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any comments to make on that.

18             MR. HARMON:  Our view, Your Honour, is that the submissions

19     should be oral, and it should not be lengthy written proceedings on 98

20     bis.  Furthermore, we do not believe that the protracted break is

21     necessary, given the case is being analysed on an ongoing basis.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what I thought.

23             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Your Honour, if I might say one thing.

Page 1623

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I take your suggestion in mind and I don't

 3     disagree with Mr. Harmon with regard to the fact that the case is being

 4     analysed on an ongoing basis.  However, one of the things that is true,

 5     which is what I think Mr. Lukic was getting to - and I will not take a

 6     long time - is that most of the people who are working with us right now

 7     and who are supporting us are interns and they will be gone.  So we will

 8     be losing a fair amount of our team, and we don't have, unfortunately,

 9     the continuity of history that exists for the Prosecution.

10             So with regard to the analysis that's going on, we're in a

11     constant -- we're in a constant process of having to educate people as

12     well.  I'm just putting that on the record so you can appreciate now one

13     of our concerns.  But we will get back to you with regard to when an

14     appropriate amount of time would be -- or what an appropriate amount of

15     time would be, in our estimation.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.  Let me reserve my


18             Okay.  Let's call the witness.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, sir.

21             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the witness please make the declaration.

23             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

24     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

Page 1624

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5                           WITNESS:  ROBERT DONIA

 6                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 7        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you begin by stating your name for the

 8     record, please.

 9        A.   Robert J. Donia.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to try and deal with our presentation today

11     thematically, and the first area I'd like to deal with will be your

12     curriculum vitae.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we please call up in that regard 65 ter

14     number 9212, 09212.

15             We're re-releasing that document now, Your Honour, and my

16     apologies.  We've worked very hard to have the technology in order.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you still fail.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Only a bump in the road, one might say, Your

19     Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Are you receiving anything, Madam Registrar,

22     because we've re-released again 9212.  It may be something that we

23     actually have no control over, Your Honour.  Let's see if we can explore

24     that.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like to go to the old and trusted?

Page 1625

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm ready to go to the old and trusted, but we've

 2     been saved by the technological gods, I'm advised.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It looks like you have.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Wonderful.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Sir, do you see a copy of the document on the screen in front of

 6     you, one in English and one in Serbo-Croatian?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Do you recognise this document?

 9        A.   Yes, that's my curriculum vitae.

10        Q.   All right.  Could you tell us, is there any recent work or

11     affiliations to your curriculum vitae that is not contained in here that

12     you feel the Trial Chamber should be aware of?

13        A.   Two.  One is merely a continuation of a previous appointment, but

14     beginning in -- beginning again in January of 2009, I will be serving as

15     Visiting Professor of History at the University of Michigan; and, second,

16     I was elected to the -- as a Corresponding Member of the Academy of

17     Sciences -- Arts and Sciences of Bosnia and Herzegovina about three weeks

18     ago.

19        Q.   With respect to this second item you referred to, Corresponding

20     Member of the Academy of Arts and Sciences of Bosnia and Herzegovina, can

21     you tell us what that means effectively?

22        A.   It is a recognition essentially of a level of scholarly

23     achievement to which is bestowed on perhaps several dozen scholars who

24     are from Bosnia-Herzegovina or have worked on topics related to

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 1626

 1        Q.   And with these modifications or updates you've just spoken about,

 2     could you otherwise confirm the accuracy of your curriculum vitae?

 3        A.   Yes, I can.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  With that, Your Honour, could I ask this be

 5     admitted as a Prosecution exhibit, please?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so admitted.  May it please be given an

 7     exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P324, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Now, just to continue further, and perhaps we don't need to erase

12     that document from the screen because we may go back to it as we deal

13     with this theme, could I ask you, sir, how would you describe your

14     occupation?

15        A.   I'm an independent historian and consultant.

16        Q.   And do you have in that field any area of specialisation in

17     particular?

18        A.   Yes.  My historical training and work is principally in the

19     history of the lands of the former Yugoslavia in the nineteenth,

20     twentieth, and twenty-first centuries, mainly social, political, and, to

21     a lesser degree, military history of those lands.

22        Q.   And in respect to those lands of the former Yugoslavia, do you

23     consider yourself as having any more detailed focus or specialisation in

24     any one of those lands in particular?

25        A.   Most of my work is on Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 1627

 1        Q.   And as a historian, what do you do?  What does your craft consist

 2     of?

 3        A.   Principally writing history and also disseminating historical

 4     knowledge through lectures, seminars, conferences, presentations to

 5     various groups that need it for preparation of one sort or another for

 6     their occupational work.

 7        Q.   Do you have a long-standing interest in the history of the former

 8     Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   How far does that interest date back?

11        A.   It dates back to 1965 when I attended a summer seminar in

12     Yugoslavia and then remained for a semester of study at the University of

13     Ljubljana in Slovenia, where I read history with two mentors at the -- in

14     the history department at the University of Ljubljana.

15        Q.   So, if my math is correct, that's more than 40 years.

16        A.   I believe, yes, that's right.

17        Q.   Do you have any dealing with Bosnia and Herzegovina in particular

18     now?  Do you have any family or other ties to the region?

19        A.   No.  I have no ethnic or family ties to the region.

20        Q.   Have you frequently travelled there?

21        A.   Yes, I have.

22        Q.   Do you continue to do so?

23        A.   Yes, I do.  Three to four times a year for the past 14 years

24     anyway.

25        Q.   Always now in respect of Bosnia and Herzegovina, have you

Page 1628

 1     conducted research there?

 2        A.   Yes, I have.

 3        Q.   And what types of institutions or organs have you conducted

 4     research at?

 5        A.   Principally the archives, various archives, in

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina, primarily in Sarajevo but also in other cities and

 7     towns of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in addition to information, documentation,

 8     about that region housed in archives in Belgrade, Zagreb, Budapest,

 9     Vienna, and London.

10        Q.   Do you have any command of the Serbo-Croatian language?

11        A.   Yes, I do.  I would characterise my speaking command of it as

12     very good, my reading command of it as very good, and my writing of it is

13     good.

14        Q.   Have you previously produced reports for this Tribunal in

15     connection with events in the former Yugoslavia?

16        A.   Yes, I have.  I believe the list of them is at -- toward the end

17     of my curriculum vitae.

18        Q.   Have you testified previously before this Tribunal?

19        A.   Yes, I have.

20        Q.   On behalf of the Prosecution or the Defence?

21        A.   I've testified on behalf of the Prosecution.

22        Q.   Have you ever been asked by any Defence team to testify in a case

23     before the Tribunal?

24        A.   No.  I've never been approached to either testify or prepare a

25     report.

Page 1629

 1        Q.   Have you taught social and political history of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 3        A.   Yes.  That's been part of my teaching work at the University of

 4     Michigan in the last several years and also part of my teaching in the

 5     late 1980s -- I'm sorry, 1970s, from about 1975 to 1981, at both the

 6     university -- Ohio State University and the University of Oregon.

 7        Q.   And I see from your curriculum vitae you lecture on the same

 8     subject.  How recently have you done that?

 9        A.   Well, I give lectures frequently to various audiences.  I

10     recently did it ten days ago.

11        Q.   Now, is that nationally or internationally?  And by "nationally,"

12     I'm referring to the United States, given that I see you're an American

13     resident.

14        A.   Yes.  I've lectured at a wide variety of universities in the

15     United States, or given a lecture, and given conference papers and

16     reports at conferences and universities in Sarajevo, Belgrade, Vienna.

17        Q.   I note also in your CV there's a heading called "Peace-keeping

18     Training," and that's on page 5 of the English and page 7 of the B/C/S.

19     I note there you provide briefings for American military units heading to

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo as a part of SFOR and KFOR.

21             What do those briefings include?

22        A.   They consist a broad historical introduction -- historical and

23     cultural introduction to Bosnia and/or Kosovo, as the case may be

24     appropriate, designed for the command element of the unit that's being

25     dispatched as a part of those UN-sanctioned peace-keeping forces.  The

Page 1630

 1     one in Bosnia is no longer SFOR.  That was dissolved in 2004.  The

 2     American contribution to that is now limited to a NATO headquarters in

 3     Sarajevo.  So that group is much smaller and consists of a small part of

 4     the overall NATO headquarters.

 5        Q.   I stand corrected.  Thank you very much.  We talked a few minutes

 6     ago about reports you produced for the Tribunal.  Have you produced

 7     reports on or relating to the social and political history of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina for any other outside organisations or agencies or

 9     governments?

10        A.   Yes.  I prepared a report for the Canadian Department of Justice,

11     and occasionally prepare reports and make presentations for the US

12     Department of State.

13        Q.   Now, just a question about your dealings with the Yugoslav

14     community generally and perhaps the scholarly community.  Have you had

15     dealings with the Serbian academic community during the course of your

16     career?

17        A.   Oh, I certainly have.  My initial research venture to Sarajevo,

18     the full year of research that I did from 1974 to 1975, I worked under

19     the mentorship of Professor Milorad Macic, who was a prominent Serbian

20     historian, then living in Sarajevo, and a member of the Academy of

21     Sciences of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time and of -- now of the Serbian

22     Academy of Sciences.  I attended a conference in Belgrade two years ago

23     and had quite a lot of dealings with -- discussions with Serbian

24     historians there, and pay a lot of attention to the literature that comes

25     out of the community of Serbian historians, both in Serbia itself and in

Page 1631

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I've also edited and written an introduction for a

 2     book by a Bosnian Serb which is listed on my CV.

 3        Q.   From the names on your CV, I would guess that -- or I would

 4     suppose that would be the book entitled "Political Memoirs of a Bosnian

 5     Serb"?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   By an individual by the name of Mirko Pejnovic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Who is Mr. Pejnovic?

10        A.   Mr. Pejnovic is today the Dean of the Faculty of Political

11     Science at the University of Sarajevo.  During the period from June 1992

12     until summer of 1994, he was a member of the Presidency of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Now, just relating to books, I see you're a published author; and

15     those books which are noted on page 1 of your CV, have they received

16     critical recognition from the Yugoslav community?

17        A.   Yes.  All of them have, yes.

18        Q.   From -- including from the Serbian community?

19        A.   From Serbs and -- yes, from Serbs from -- it has received

20     critical assessment, indeed, from many different historians and reviewers

21     of all ethnicities in the former Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   To move on, then --

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  My apologies.  I'm unclear what the term

Page 1632

 1     "critical" means.  It's a word that has a number of different tones and

 2     shades.  It could be critical from the standpoint of disapproval.  It

 3     could be critical from the standpoint of an incisive understanding of

 4     what the author in this particular situation has produced.  I just wonder

 5     if we can get some clarification with regard to that issue so it doesn't

 6     hang in the air as a vagary.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Fair enough, Your Honour.  Perhaps I could ask

 9     another question in that regard.

10        Q.   These books that you've written, are you aware as to whether

11     they've received -- as to whether they've been positively accepted by the

12     Yugoslav scholarly community?

13        A.   Well, there's no Yugoslav scholarly community today, so I don't

14     know that I could answer that at that level.  It has been positive --

15     they have been positively received by scholars from Serbian, Croatian,

16     and Bosnian Muslim or Bosniak provenance, but not unanimously by any

17     group.

18        Q.   And speaking of the groups, does that apply to groups who are

19     resident in the United States as well as groups who are resident in the

20     former Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Yes.  Reviews from all those groups have been largely positive.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, is Mr. Guy-Smith to understand

23     that "critical" means positive?

24             MS. EDGERTON:  In -- that was my original intention, and I strove

25     to clarify that with the later question.

Page 1633

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What you wanted to ask the witness was whether his

 2     books had been critiqued, which is different from criticised.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Quite so.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:

 6        Q.   Perhaps we could move on to the two reports which form the basis

 7     of your testimony today.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  And I would like to ask Madam Registrar to call

 9     them up so that Dr. Donia can see the first page of those reports, the

10     first one being 65 ter number 02169.

11        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you see this next document on the screen in front

12     of you in English and in B/C/S as well now?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Do you recognise that document?

15        A.   Yes.  This is a document that I prepared in 2002 for the -- under

16     a commission from the Prosecution for the trial of Mr. Krajisnik.  I

17     believe I testified about this report further in 2005.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Moving on to the next report, again I only need

19     the first page displayed.  That would be 65 ter number 02290.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is there anything you would like to do with this

21     65 ter document before we move on to the next one?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Taking in mind Your Honours' guidelines from your

23     decision on the report of Dr. Donia, I would like to deal with that at

24     the end of his testimony, I think.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 1634

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 2             02290 is the next 65 ter number.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise what's on the screen in front of you?

 4        A.   Yes.  This is a report that I prepared for the Prosecution in the

 5     case of Mr. Dragomir Milosevic in 2006, and was questioned about this

 6     report in July of 2007 --

 7        Q.   And --

 8        A.   -- I'm sorry.  March of 2007, I believe.

 9        Q.   And just, for the record, could you tell us the title of this

10     report?

11        A.   "From Elections to Stalemate:  The Making of the Sarajevo Siege,

12     1990-1994."

13        Q.   I omitted for the record to ask for the title of your -- the

14     first report that was displayed for you, 65 ter 02169.  Do you recall the

15     title?

16        A.   No.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  My apologies.  Could we have it displayed again,

18     please, 02169, just for completeness of the record.

19             THE WITNESS:  "The Origins of Republika Srpska, 1990-1992 - A

20     Background Report."

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that these reports were prepared as a

23     result of -- on a commission from the Prosecution in those cases.  Do you

24     recall whether they were prepared as a result of some kind of written

25     mandate?

Page 1635

 1        A.   Neither one of these reports was prepared in response to a

 2     written mandate, no.

 3        Q.   What were the objectives, then, of these reports?

 4        A.   I was asked by the Prosecution to prepare a report which

 5     explained and enlightened the background of the major developments,

 6     events, and institutions referenced in the indictment.

 7        Q.   From that, then, perhaps I could take you one step further and

 8     ask if you could describe, then, the nature of these two reports.  Are

 9     they similar in nature or dissimilar?

10        A.   They are similar in their fundamental structure.  Each is an

11     empirically based narrative account, topically organised, of the major

12     developments and institutions pertaining to these two topics.

13        Q.   How did you go about preparing, then?  Is there any theoretical

14     approach or a methodology that underlines the way you prepared these

15     reports?

16        A.   Yes.  The method of preparation is essentially one of interaction

17     between myself as a writer and the documents on which the account is

18     based.  Now, I say "interactive" in the sense that I seek always to try

19     to -- I have sought in these reports to take into account a very broad

20     spectrum of information and documentation, and to then formulate the

21     specific narrative in response to the best available documentation and

22     the density of that documentation, the verifiability of it, the richness

23     of the documentary record, and, the, let's say, the independence of

24     that -- the reliability of the sources.

25             There is, furthermore, a viewpoint, or perhaps one could call it

Page 1636

 1     a theory, underpinning these reports which is the view that nationalities

 2     and national movements are constructed entities, rather than primordial

 3     ones.  That is a debate that has flourished in a number of disciplines

 4     over the past perhaps three decades, with the view that I share being

 5     that ethnic groups and national movements are dynamic, constantly

 6     changing phenomena that will mutate over time, depending on the actions

 7     of the elites that form them and lead them.  So they're very much

 8     contemporary human creations, as opposed to those people who see them

 9     primordial, ever-lasting entities.

10             What that means in practice is that I reject the often-seen

11     national accounts by Bosnian Muslims, Serbs, or Croats that everything

12     that happened was just a re-run of something from the Middle Ages.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

15             Thank you.

16        Q.   To go back to methodology in a different way, you mentioned the

17     broad base of material you deal with.  What's your criteria for selecting

18     the documents from this broad base of material that you use to write your

19     report?

20        A.   Well, first of all, relevance.  It has to actually apply directly

21     to the narrative that I'm writing; second, reliability, either as

22     determined by internal content of the document and/or external

23     assessments of the source of the document; third would be its

24     inter-connectability, its verifiability, consistency with other documents

25     of the time and source; and, finally, richness.  I think the value of the

Page 1637

 1     document, its appropriateness to be included as a citation or even

 2     quoted, depends on its ability to illuminate the topic that I'm

 3     addressing.

 4        Q.   How do you determine reliability?  How do you make an assessment

 5     of a document's reliability?

 6        A.   Well, there are two ways one can do that.  I think one does that,

 7     and that is, first of all, to look at the source.  The words of an actor

 8     in a particular event clearly bear more weight and have greater validity

 9     than the words of a third- or fourth-hand person or someone who is not in

10     a position to directly observe events.  So that character of the source

11     is the first important thing.

12             Then the second important thing would be the assessment of --

13     from the outside of the value of the value of document from other

14     documents and sources that were generated at the time.

15        Q.   Now, just in terms of sources, then, going back again to these

16     reports, can you outline what collections and selections you relied on

17     for the preparation of these reports, dealing first with the report

18     entitled "Origins of the Republika Srpska"?

19        A.   Well, I think I could probably address the two of them together.

20     It is voluminous.  It consists of a survey that I have made over the

21     years of the periodical press from several different publications in

22     several different parts of the former Yugoslavia, surveys of

23     documentation that I've been either provided by the Office of the

24     Prosecutor or have gleaned from those documents put into evidence in

25     other cases, documents from the United Nations and other international

Page 1638

 1     organisations, and those people who've had first-hand accounts of events

 2     there.  It's a very voluminous collection of documents that constitutes,

 3     let's say, the base from which the reports were prepared.

 4        Q.   And, more specifically, I note that your first report, "The

 5     Origins of the Republika Srpska," and to a lesser extent, but it also

 6     refers in your second report, but you refer to transcripts of sessions of

 7     the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina and later the

 8     Bosnian Serb Assembly, the RS Assembly.

 9        A.   Yes.  That's a key source of information and evidence in the

10     report on the "Origins of the Republika Srpska."

11        Q.   As a historian, what relevance was that collection to the

12     preparation of these reports?

13        A.   It is, as far as I have been able to identify, the best

14     collection of the thinking and expressions of intent by the Bosnian Serb

15     nationalist leadership, leaders, that I have found.  Many of the sessions

16     were held under the presumption of confidentiality.  Others were not but

17     many of them were, and, consequently, many of the expressions appear to

18     be remarkably candid.  So it's a very valuable source, and I would rate

19     it at the top, really, or near the top of the available sources about the

20     making of the Republika Srpska, particularly the thinking and attitudes

21     of those who actually did the creating.

22        Q.   In your second report, "The Making of the Siege of Sarajevo,"

23     there was, in fact -- or I saw, in fact, some evidence of other or

24     additional sources you consulted that weren't noted in the first report.

25        A.   Yes, that would be true, certainly.

Page 1639

 1        Q.   And you speak to those sources.  What did you consult?

 2        A.   Well, I consulted the United Nations reports, the reports of the

 3     newspaper -- principally the newspaper Oslobodjenje which was published

 4     continuously during the war within the city of Sarajevo, the interviews

 5     that I conducted with a number of participants and leaders, and,

 6     additionally, some of the documentation that was provided to me by the

 7     Office of the Prosecutor regarding some of the activities before the war

 8     in various municipalities of the city.

 9        Q.   I note, in this last answer, you've stipulated that you consulted

10     newspaper reports, principally the newspaper Oslobodjenje.  As a

11     historian, what value or relevance do you attribute to this periodic

12     press from the time period?

13        A.   The periodical press from that time has, I think, a particular

14     value for a couple reasons.

15             Number one, in the socialist period, all these newspapers had a

16     founding organisation, either the municipality or the city of Sarajevo or

17     even the League of Communists, and, as such, was mandated to be a

18     newspaper of record.  Journalists and editors maintained that commitment

19     to be a newspaper of record even as they developed some very opinionated

20     content on their editorial page.

21             Second, we have in the periodical press a lot of on-site

22     investigative reporting.  People who were trained to note with their eyes

23     and ears what took place, who said what, and how to pen it in a way that

24     conveyed to a reader the genuine sense of what the atmosphere was like

25     and what the players said, are just throughout the periodical press of

Page 1640

 1     not only Sarajevo but Banja Luka and even newspapers from outside the

 2     Bosnia -- outside Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   I have two questions based on that.  First of all, what's a

 4     "newspaper of record"?  What do you mean by that?

 5        A.   A newspaper of record notion is that the newspaper will print,

 6     often without editing, a press release, a speech, the content of a

 7     resolution or memorandum, in its columns.

 8        Q.   Then, to go back to the question I initially asked you, as a

 9     historian, then, what value do you place on this periodic press you

10     described from this period?

11        A.   Well, it does, really, for me two things.  It gives me a great

12     deal of insight into not just what happened but how it happened, why it

13     happened, what the thinking of the actors was.  And, second, it gives me

14     a sense of sequence and progression because a newspaper typically follows

15     a story for many days, weeks, or even years; and, consequently, it's a

16     very solid source of the evolution of people's thinking or the

17     institutions and players that were examining.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             Now I'll move on to some areas more directly linked to portions

20     of your report?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  But at this stage and with my friend

22     Mr. Guy-Smith's -- subject to my friend Mr. Guy-Smith's permission, I'd

23     like to offer Dr. Donia copies of these reports as they were filed with

24     my friend in the Chambers, so that he might have them to refer to them

25     during the course of his testimony.

Page 1641

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Hard copy?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excellent.  Wonderful idea.  Yes, absolutely.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Sorry, Mr. Registrar.  Two copies go to Dr. Donia;

 6     that is, two reports, one copy of each.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   So now to begin, I'd like to go to the report on the "Origins of

 8     the Republika Srpska," pages 20 and 21 in English and 18 and 19 in B/C/S.

 9             There you make note of the differing views of the nationalist

10     parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the period leading up to the multi-party

11     elections as regards the nature of the Socialist Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina's relationship to Yugoslavia.

13             Have you found that -- those passages?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Are you in a position to explain the SDS party's view in this

16     regard, in regard to the nature of the Socialist Republic of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina's relationship to Yugoslavia?

18        A.   Yes.  The SDS wanted Bosnia-Herzegovina to continue to be part of

19     a federal Yugoslav state with the goal of strengthening the federation;

20     that is, they wanted either the status quo or stronger links between the

21     various federal states and the centre.

22             The SDS did have a backup position in the event that Yugoslavia

23     disintegrated or federal Yugoslavia ceased to exist.  In their view, they

24     wished to be part of a Serbian state, a state in which all Serbs lived.

25        Q.   Two questions.  One I should have asked you a little bit earlier.

Page 1642

 1     Could you tell the Trial Chamber, what was the SDS?

 2        A.   The SDS was the party of the Serbian Democratic Party, Stranka

 3     Demokratske Akcije, which was formed in July of 1990 to compete in the

 4     first multi-party elections, democratic elections, in November of that

 5     year.

 6        Q.   When you say "Serbian Democratic Party," it's the Serbian

 7     Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   Yes.  There was an SDS of Croatia as well.

 9        Q.   Who was the head of the SDS of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   Radovan Karadzic was its president.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just to go back to the position you've

12     articulated, it seems to contemplate two possibilities; and I'd just like

13     to know, were they always expressed as backup or alternative

14     possibilities?

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  At this time, I would ask --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  --  I would ask that Ms. Edgerton pay attention

18     to what is potentially is a leading question.  She can ask what was the

19     various positions as opposed to suggesting an answer as to where she

20     wants to go.  I'm asking for caution more than for an actual objection

21     yet in terms of a totally leading question.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment.

24             Yes, Your Honour, I can go back to page 23, line 12, where

25     Dr. Donia noted:  "The SDS did have a backup position to their first

Page 1643

 1     option," and ask the question this way:  Dr. Donia, you said earlier that

 2     the SDS's backup position in the event Yugoslavia disintegrated or a

 3     federal Yugoslavia ceased to exist was that the SDS wished to be part of

 4     a Serbian state.

 5        Q.   I'd simply like to know:  Is that how the relationship or the

 6     envision of the relationship was always expressed, as a backup.

 7        A.   It was expressed as a backup until such time as it appeared that

 8     federal Yugoslavia was in disintegration and would not survive or would

 9     be transformed.  That came in very late 1991, perhaps late December 1991,

10     and the early couple of months of 1992.  At that point, the first option

11     having become unviable, the second backup solution became the first one,

12     really.

13             The other thing to be said, I think, is that the backup,

14     option B, was less clearly -- there was less agreement on exactly the

15     form of that backup option among the Bosnian Serb leaders and Serb

16     leaders generally than there was about the initial position about

17     maintaining federal Yugoslavia.

18        Q.   Perhaps we could explore the articulations of these notions.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  And in that regard, could I call up 65 ter 6686,

20     please.

21        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you see a document in Cyrillic and one in English

22     on your screen in front of you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you recognise this document?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1644

 1        Q.   What is it?

 2        A.   It was a document prepared in November of 1990, just after the

 3     declaration of the creation of the Serbian National Council in which

 4     the -- Karadzic spelled out the fundamental position of the party toward

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Yugoslavia.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I take us all down to heading III, which is

 7     the bottom of the first page in English, and I think -- yes.  It appears

 8     in part on the bottom of the first page in Serbo-Croatian, and then we'll

 9     have to go over to the second page.

10        Q.   Dr. Donia, could you have a look at the heading III, which begins

11     with the sentence "The will of the Serbian people ..."

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And tell me if you have any comment with regard to this statement

14     based on your earlier testimony?

15        A.   Karadzic here essentially articulates the position that the

16     federal unit is necessary based on the notion that Bosnia-Herzegovina

17     consists of sovereign peoples.

18        Q.   Is this statement in paragraph III consistent with what you've

19     articulated as being the position of the SDS as regards the Socialist

20     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina's relationship with Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Yes, it is.  The second part of this -- well, part III and

22     paragraph IV go into, in rather vague terms, the backup option to which

23     I've referred; that is, what would happen to Serbs should federal

24     Yugoslavia cease to exist.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.

Page 1645

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm just a bit unclear.  I take it that what the

 3     witness is doing is interpreting the paragraph, and the reason I'm asking

 4     the question is because I'm not seeing the language of "sovereign

 5     people."  I see "sovereign and equal nations" and I see "the Serbian

 6     people," and I see "Serbs, Muslims, Croats, and other nations."  I'm just

 7     curious as to whether or not what we're having occur here is an

 8     interpretation of the document, or whether or not he is indicating that

 9     this is, in fact, what the document itself says.  Just so I'm clear.

10             I'm trying to make sure that I understand precisely what the

11     witness is alluding to here, since he used the term "essentially," and

12     considering that we're dealing with the issue of, as the witness put it,

13     concerns about what I will call the primordial nature of the human being.

14     I'm sure he's appreciative of the distinction between peoples and

15     nations.  I want to make sure that our language is somewhat specific.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I can clarify this with the witness now, if Your

18     Honour wishes; but, properly, I would submit it's a matter that

19     Mr. Guy-Smith can raise in cross-examination.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm just trying to make life easy.  I'm happy to

21     do it the other way.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed.  Because, in fact, you're really not

23     objecting.  You are wanting to tell the witness what words to use, which

24     I find a little difficult, and I think you can clarify that in

25     cross-examination, Mr. Guy-Smith.  If you see any fundamental difference

Page 1646

 1     between the word "peoples" and "nations," it's a matter for

 2     cross-examination.

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Fine.  Thank you so much.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:

 6        Q.   Now, this notion that you've described, Dr. Donia, as articulated

 7     in 6686 --

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Actually, before I forget myself, Your Honours,

 9     could I ask that 6686 be marked as an exhibit, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

11     given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P325, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Now, this notion that we've -- you've described, Dr. Donia, and

16     we've seen articulated in Exhibit P325, have you seen evidence in your

17     research that would illustrate this notion was common to both SDS leaders

18     and authorities in power in Serbia at that time?

19        A.   Yes.  There are -- I've seen several speeches or statements by

20     President Milosevic that take essentially the same position.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I call up, please, 65 ter 2247.07, please,

22     2247.07.  This document, for everyone's information, is an extract,

23     page 28, from a book by Srdjan Radulovic, entitled "Sudbina Krajine."

24        Q.   Dr. Donia, what does "Sudbina Krajine" mean?

25        A.   The Fate of Krajina.

Page 1647

 1        Q.   Dr. Donia, are you familiar with Srdjan Radulovic is?

 2        A.   Yes.  He was a journalist/correspondent who covered the

 3     developments in Croatia in 1990, 1991, I believe for the newspaper

 4     Politika.  I'm not sure of the newspaper that he worked for.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, on the B/C/S copy, the paragraph I'd like to

 6     bring your attention to is the final paragraph on the page; and in the

 7     English translation, I'd like you to go, please, to page 3.

 8             But now, unfortunately, we have -- or I have two English page 3s

 9     on my screen, so if you can try and keep the B/C/S one on the screen.

10             Thank you very much.

11        Q.   Dr. Donia, I'd like to take your attention to the paragraph at

12     the top of this page 3 of the English translation, where you see

13     reference to a statement by Slobodan Milosevic on -- at an enlarged

14     session of the Presidency on the eve of the Serbian elections.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you have a look at that paragraph, please.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I note this is a document you referred to in your report.  Do you

19     have any comment on whether this statement by Slobodan Milosevic is

20     consistent with the notion that you've described as being held by the SDS

21     leadership?

22        A.   Yes.  In this statement, Milosevic says that the first -- the

23     preferred solution is a democratic federation.  He also addresses a

24     backup alternative to that, which he articulates as this very widely used

25     slogan, "the Serbian people want to live in a single state."  He, in this

Page 1648

 1     manner, doesn't, as I said, be terribly precise about what that

 2     alternative means, but it's clear that the -- that's the alternative in

 3     the event that a federation is not accepted by other parties.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I submit this, please, as a further

 6     Prosecution exhibit, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is made as an exhibit.  May it please be

 8     given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P326, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  If we could move on, please, to 65 ter

12     number 2234.  And in the Serbo-Croatian version that's on the right-hand

13     side of the screen, the item to highlight is the paragraph in the box on

14     the top left-hand corner that mentions the word "Poker."  Sorry, top

15     left-hand corner.  That's right.

16        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you recognise the document in front of you?

17        A.   Yes.  This is a page from the Banja Luka newspaper Glas, or

18     Voice, which was the probably second most widely read newspaper in the

19     former Yugoslavia, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, at that time, based in Banja

20     Luka.

21        Q.   Now, in the English translation of the article entitled "Otvoreni

22     Poker," I'd like us to go down towards the bottom of page 1, two-thirds

23     of the way down.  I'd like you to look at the sentence that begins

24     with -- it's a little more than two-thirds of the way down in the

25     English.  It begins with "According to Karadzic ..."

Page 1649

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And if you could have a look at that sentence and then please

 3     indicate to Mr. Registrar when you're prepared to go over to the next

 4     page.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  For the record, the B/C/S -- corresponding B/C/S

 6     paragraph should be just on the left-hand side.  Thank you.  It's a bit

 7     difficult to describe, but it's almost opposite the bolded part on the

 8     right-hand side of the page, and it begins with the sentence "Svi Srbi."

 9     Perfect.  Thank you.

10        Q.   It's just at the top of your screen.

11        A.   Yes.  "According to Karadzic, all Serbs have one goal, which is

12     to live in a common state."  He is here expressing the, I would say,

13     overall objective Serbs, preferably within Yugoslavia.  Then he expresses

14     the backup goal, which is then in a Greater Serbia.

15             Just to emphasise, these are -- this is a description provided by

16     the journalist Gordan Truhelj, who is a veteran journalist covering

17     political developments in Bosnian Krajina.  His analysis of this was to

18     note that the Greater Serbia option was put forward at the meeting, first

19     presented as an official choice and then - go to the next page - always

20     presented as an alternative to Yugoslavia, as I have said.

21             But clearly stated, this relationship between the decline of the

22     Yugoslav option, should that occur, the more viable the option of a

23     Greater Serbia would be.  These are the observations of the journalist on

24     this speech of Karadzic in Banja Luka two days before.

25        Q.   Do you attribute any particular significance to this report?

Page 1650

 1        A.   It is a report on an unusual speech, in that the term "Greater

 2     Serbia" and the notion of Greater Serbia was openly presented by

 3     Karadzic; and the occasion itself which involves Serbs from Knin, from

 4     the Krajina in Croatia, were a part of the rally.  I think this is a good

 5     analysis of the relationship between these options in the description of

 6     this experience of, I think, a perceptive journalist.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, could I ask, please, that this be

 8     marked as the next exhibit.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

10     number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P327, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

14        Q.   I wonder if we could move forward in time from there to events in

15     October 1991, which you referred to in --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was going to ask, since it looks like you're

17     moving into a slightly new topic, wouldn't that be a convenient time?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, Your Honour, and I apologise for not noting

19     the time; but, indeed, it would be.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's take the break, then, and come back at a

21     quarter to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Edgerton.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

Page 1651

 1        Q.   Dr. Donia, what I'd like to do is move forward in time now to an

 2     Assembly session of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the

 3     middle of October 1991, a session that actually began at the end of the

 4     first week of October and culminated in events on the night of the

 5     15th of October.

 6             Are you familiar with this session?

 7        A.   Yes, I am.

 8        Q.   Do you recall whether or not it was televised?

 9        A.   Yes, it was.

10        Q.   Have you had occasion to see the broadcast or later copies of the

11     broadcast?

12        A.   I've seen both the videotape of the proceedings -- I did not see

13     the broadcast at the time it was transmitted, but I've seen a videotape

14     of it since then and transcripts of the session.

15        Q.   Have you followed media reports, printed media reports, of events

16     that took place that night?

17        A.   Yes.  I've examined a number of media reports of the session.

18        Q.   Could you tell us, then, in a nutshell, in summary fashion, what

19     happened that night?  Was it a significant night for the republic as a

20     whole?

21        A.   Yes.  It was a watershed event, I think, in most people's

22     assessment, and mine as well.  The session had been convened to arrive at

23     a negotiating position for Bosnia-Herzegovina in peace talks then

24     underway in The Hague with the aim of ending the war in Croatia.  Several

25     groups presented draft resolutions defining the platform for those

Page 1652

 1     negotiations and a memorandum of sovereignty which was presented by the

 2     HDZ and SDA leaders.

 3             In the course of the long debates of the evening of the 14th of

 4     October, Radovan Karadzic made a particularly pointed speech that aroused

 5     a great deal of response in the other delegates present.  Subsequent to

 6     that speech, the chairman of the -- or president of the Assembly, Momcilo

 7     Krajisnik, dissolved the Assembly -- I'm sorry, not dissolved, but

 8     adjourned the Assembly.  Then Mariofil Ljubic, who was the vice-president

 9     of the Assembly, reconvened it with the delegates of the SDA and HDZ only

10     remaining in the auditorium.

11             They subsequently passed a memorandum of sovereignty and a

12     platform which expressed those parties' approach to the negotiations and,

13     as a part of that, the nature of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Now, just to go back now to develop some of the points you've

15     made in this summary, could you explain, first of all, who the organs

16     you've described -- sorry, let me ask you the question this way:

17             If you go back to page 33, line 12, you mentioned HDZ and SDA

18     leaders.  What was the HDZ and what was the SDA?

19        A.   These were two national parties that were founded in the summer

20     of 1990 in preparation for the November elections.  The HDZ was the

21     Croatian Democratic Community.  It drew votes almost exclusively from

22     Croatian -- Bosnians of Croatian nationality, bore the same name as a

23     party in Croatia itself.  The SDA was the Party of Democratic Action.  It

24     appealed to and drew votes from almost exclusively Bosnian Muslim

25     constituents.  It was headed by Alija Izetbegovic.

Page 1653

 1        Q.   Now, this platform and memorandum you've mentioned, are you

 2     familiar with those two documents?

 3        A.   Yes, I am.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I then ask that 65 ter 9122 be displayed,

 5     please, 9122.  Would you re-release, please.  We'll just wait for a

 6     moment until the original - there we go - is loaded.

 7        Q.   Could you see the documents on the screen in front of you,

 8     Dr. Donia?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Could you tell us what the B/C/S document that you see in front

11     of you is?

12        A.   The B/C/S document is a page from Oslobodjenje of 15 October 1991

13     which carries a story in the upper left-hand corner about the session

14     itself.  And in the right-hand two columns, it carries the text of

15     proposed resolutions submitted by the three principal contenders in this

16     discussion.  At the top the -- I can't see it quite clearly --

17        Q.   Can I interrupt you for a moment.  Thank you.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Do you think you could enlarge the box in the

19     B/C/S on the top right-hand corner, which begins with the title

20     "Za Suverenu BiH."

21        Q.   Sorry, please continue.  Have I asked them to enlarge the article

22     you want to refer to?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25        A.   This is the draft memorandum of the SDA and HDZ which was passed

Page 1654

 1     with, as far as I can tell, no significant changes, in that, at about

 2     2.30 in the morning on the 15th of October, the document that we're

 3     looking at is the memorandum.  As I indicated, there was a separate

 4     document which was the platform for the negotiating position of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  But this memorandum articulates the position of

 6     these two parties, and then after the vote of the Assembly, that the

 7     future arrangements for Bosnia-Herzegovina must include the Serbian and

 8     Croatian republics, and that Bosnia must be -- must have its relations

 9     with both in the same manner.

10             It also states that the representatives of Bosnia-Herzegovina

11     will not attend sessions of the federal Yugoslav institutions that are

12     not attended by representatives of all other republics.

13             In the first paragraph, it cites Amendment 60 to the Constitution

14     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was passed in February 1990, and made this

15     nuanced but very significant change in the constitutional formulation to

16     say that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a democratic sovereign state of equal

17     citizens.

18        Q.   Was this formulation that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a democratic

19     sovereign state of equal citizens, in your mind, consistent with the

20     notion of the SDS party?

21        A.   No.  It was diametrically opposed to it.  The point becomes very

22     clear when you look at the wording of the platform in which the -- these

23     two parties adopt the position that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a civic state,

24     that is, a state of its citizens, without reference to the sovereignty of

25     its peoples, and, therefore, should be governed by majority rule and

Page 1655

 1     equal rights for all citizens, as opposed to the SDS position that

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina is a state of three sovereign peoples.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Before I move on, could I ask that this document

 4     be marked as the next exhibit, please, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so marked.  May it please be given an

 6     exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P328, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we turn now to 65 ter number 09009.01,

10     which, for everyone's information, is a transcript of the speech that

11     Mr. Karadzic made which this witness has referred to earlier.

12             Your indulgence for a moment while I make a note, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Are you familiar with this speech, Dr. Donia?

14        A.   Yes.  This is Dr. Karadzic's speech to the Assembly in the early

15     hours of 15 October 1991.

16        Q.   Have you found in this speech reflections of the view that you've

17     just articulated in page 36, lines 10 and 11, that the SDS position was

18     that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a state of three sovereign peoples?

19        A.   Yes.  I'm having trouble seeing the full English page here.  I

20     think that --

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we scroll down, please.  Could we scroll

22     down in the English copy, please, and then in the B/C/S copy.  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  About halfway through the last paragraph on

24     that page in the English, which the sentence begins with the word

25     "But ..." which is in about line 7:  "But you have no way to get it, nor

Page 1656

 1     have you the way to realise it later on, because all people are

 2     sovereign, Serbian, Croatian, and Muslim."

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  And, for the record, the B/C/S of that sentence is

 4     in approximately the same position in the last paragraph, halfway

 5     through; and if I'm not mistaken, it begins with the sentence

 6     "Nemate nikakgov nacina ..."

 7             THE WITNESS:  Da.  Yes.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we scroll over to the next page, please, to

 9     give Dr. Donia an opportunity to review the document in full.

10             THE WITNESS:  I'd like to go to a sentence that's in the

11     bottom -- about the bottom half of that page.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Bottom half of the first paragraph?

14        A.   No, no.

15        Q.   Bottom half of the page as a whole?

16        A.   Bottom of the first paragraph is good, in this section that

17     begins:  "And one of the most flagrant things in all that you are doing

18     is that you are trying to describe the acts of Slovenia and Croatia as

19     legal."

20             He then goes on to accuse the rival parties of wanting to see

21     Slovenia and Croatia become independent in hopes that the Croats and

22     Muslims of Bosnia would be dragged along.

23        Q.   And do you interpret anything from this remark?

24        A.   Well, he believes that the -- he is alleging that the Muslims and

25     Croats, with this resolution, are going to follow the course toward

Page 1657

 1     independence for Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   Now, perhaps I can ask you a question by taking us over to the

 3     next page, number 3, of both the B/C/S and English.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Approximately halfway down the page, just over

 5     halfway down the page in both documents, if you can stop with the

 6     scrolling in the English, I'll just take a moment to find it.

 7             When it's one whole paragraph per page, Your Honour, you can

 8     appreciate it's somewhat difficult.

 9        Q.   The sentence in any case in the English version begins with:

10     "You want to achieve in The Hague ..."

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Could you please have a look at that sentence, which continues

13     down -- or that passage, which continues down to the sentence which ends

14     with"... not for other people as well."

15             And while you do that, I'll try and identify where this provision

16     is in the B/C/S version.

17        A.   I think this is one of the clearest articulations of this

18     principal so strongly held to by Karadzic and the Bosnian Serb

19     nationalist leaders that the sovereignty of the peoples of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina is the predominant principle that should govern political

21     life.  "You want to achieve in The Hague," and I'll just go down to the

22     sentence that says:  "Sovereign people in Bosnia and Herzegovina can each

23     say for themselves what they want, but not for other people as well.  It

24     was one of the conclusions made in this Assembly."

25             There's a statement that these are -- the peoples are essentially

Page 1658

 1     billiard ball type objects with -- they're completely self-contained and

 2     cannot have any influence on other peoples because of their sovereignty.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  If I could ask your assistance, Mr. Registrar.  In

 4     the B/C/S version, could you scroll up in the page, because I don't see

 5     that passage displayed just yet.  If you could stop now.

 6        Q.   Dr. Donia, because of your facility in the language, perhaps you

 7     could assist us in identifying the same passage for the record in this

 8     document.

 9        A.   Let's see.

10        Q.   Does it begin with the sentence, "Vi hocete u Haagu ..." on --

11        A.   I'm sorry.  I'm just not able to put my finger on this

12     immediately.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  My apologies, Your Honour, for this, but I'm

14     aiming for precision as much as possible.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

17             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  "Mr. Izetbegovic in The Hague is --" strike

18     that.

19             The sentence that says "Suvereni norodi u Bosni i Herzegovini" is

20     part of the passage.  If you see "Sovereign people in Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     can each say for themselves what they want," which I just cited, that is

22     in the B/C/S about one-third of the way down this page, as it's currently

23     displayed.

24             MS. EDGERTON:

25        Q.   Thank you very much, Dr. Donia.

Page 1659

 1             Now, just one further question about this transcript, or,

 2     generally speaking, your recollection of the session, you mentioned

 3     earlier that Dr. Karadzic made a pointed speech.  Do you recall him

 4     saying anything that incurred a public reaction?

 5        A.   Yes.  His next to last thought paragraph in this speech ended

 6     with a very pointed exclamation or statement about the possibility of the

 7     extinguishing of the Bosnian Muslims.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Before we move on to the next exhibit, could I

 9     please ask that this document be marked as an exhibit, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

11     an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P329, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  And now with everyone's indulgence, I would like

15     to play the transcript of -- to play the video of the portion that

16     Dr. Donia has just referred to.

17             This will be played in Sanction, Your Honours; and for the sake

18     of the record, we'll only be seeing the English version of what the

19     speaker's saying on the Sanction programme.  So I'm wondering if I could

20     ask, and this is a very short clip, I'm wondering if I could ask the

21     indulgence of our colleagues in the interpreters booth to read out the

22     English so we have a full record, an appropriate record, of what's being

23     said.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sure they heard you.  I see they are nodding.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Please play the clip.

Page 1660

 1                           [Videotape played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "You want in The Hague to achieve

 3     for this to be the third or fourth republic which will not stay in

 4     Yugoslavia.  I'm sorry, but we want to stay in Yugoslavia.  You can speak

 5     only for yourself.  Sovereign people in Bosnia-Herzegovina can each say

 6     for themselves what they want, but not for other people as well.  It was

 7     one of the conclusions made by this Assembly.  We shall disable you to

 8     carry out violence against Serbian people, constitutional violence, in

 9     front of local and international public, because after -- we won't be

10     consulted if we come into the situation in which Slovenia and Croatia are

11     in, especially Croatia, knowing that in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the hell

12     would be 1.000 times worse than there.

13             "I have to send this message to all the delegates.  Gentlemen,

14     believe me, even if you would make something tonight, even though you

15     have no way of making it, because we have the constitutional manner to

16     prevent you from voting.  But even if you would make something, that

17     would be the source of shame for Mr. Izetbegovic and in The Hague.  It

18     would also be a great shame for the image of this parliament in Europe

19     and for all these peoples in Yugoslavia and Europe.  It would be

20     especially your embarrassment, Croats and Muslims, who are loyal to this

21     idea, your shame and your proof of how much you respect sovereignty and

22     equality of Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23             "I am asking you one more time - I am not threatening, I'm

24     asking - to take seriously the interpretation of the political will of

25     Serbian people, which is represented here by the Serbian Democratic Party

Page 1661

 1     and Serbian Movement of Renewal, and several Serbs from some other

 2     parties.  Please do take it seriously.  This is not good, what you are

 3     doing.  This is the road that you want Bosnia and Herzegovina to take,

 4     the same highway of hell and suffering that Slovenia and Croatia went

 5     through.  Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and

 6     Muslim people in possible extinction, because Muslim people will not be

 7     able to defend itself if it comes to war here."

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Dr. Donia, you mentioned earlier that you had an opportunity to

10     review the videotape of the telecast; and towards the end of this topic

11     in your testimony, you recalled Dr. Karadzic's statement about the

12     possibility of the extinguishing of the Bosnian Muslims.

13             Is this the statement you recall having reviewed?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours ...

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  I have an administrative question which I would

19     ask Your Honours' guidance on.  I'd like to ask this be marked as an

20     exhibit, but I think it would make sense, subject to Your Honours, of

21     course, that this be marked somehow as part of P329 so that they are, for

22     everybody's sake, cross-referenced and can easily be associated, if

23     that's at all possible.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, it's been suggested by

Page 1662

 1     Madam Registrar that she could either make it P329.1 or just

 2     cross-reference it, whatever you prefer.  Make your pick.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I think, given the way we all have to search

 4     through the systems, it would probably be more convenient down the road

 5     for it to be called 329.1.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So be it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will become Exhibit P329.1,

 8     then.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what's the 65 ter number of that clip?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Of the clip, it's 65 ter number 9009.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Then it's given the number P329.1.

12     Thank you very much.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Now, to move on, and this is noted in your report on the making

15     of the Sarajevo siege, pages 9 of the English and 10 of the B/C/S

16     translation, to move on to what you've noted as the SDS Party Council

17     meeting which took place after this speech.

18             Could I ask you, who was present at this meeting?

19        A.   The key elected leaders of the SDS, Radovan Karadzic, Biljana

20     Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic, and a number of members of the body that was

21     designated the Party Council, I sometimes see it as the Political

22     Council, who were not involved in the daily SDS affairs but viewed as

23     intellectuals with particular insight and contributions to make to the

24     overall direction that the party should take.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Before you go further, could I ask for 65 ter

Page 1663

 1     number 2223, please.

 2        Q.   Perhaps, before the document finally comes up, I could ask you

 3     this:  Are you in a position to give further detail to the Trial Chamber

 4     about what the SDS Party Council was?

 5        A.   Well, I think I've just given about what I can.  It is, in some

 6     sense, an advisory body that was listened to very closely because of its

 7     composition, prominent intellectuals and political activists in the

 8     party.  Its chairman Slavko Lejovac was a member of the Academy of

 9     Sciences in Bosnia-Herzegovina and a professor.  So that's the

10     intellectual component of it.  Milorad Ekmecic who, of course, was my

11     former mentor in the 1970s, was also one of those prominent intellectuals

12     who was on the body.

13        Q.   Now, do you see the documents on the screen in front of you?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you recognise them?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you tell us what they are?

18        A.   These are the English translation and B/C/S original of notes or

19     minutes taken at the meeting of 15th October 1991, that is, the evening

20     after the morning -- the evening of the same day in which the actions

21     were approved in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina at 2.30 in the

22     morning.

23        Q.   Now, to your mind, did this meeting have any significance?

24        A.   It's very significant in that it effectively launched the party

25     on a course toward a separate Bosnian Serb national polity and outlined

Page 1664

 1     the steps to be taken in that direction.  The suggestions come from

 2     individual participants.  The notes do not show any conclusions reached,

 3     nor was there, to my knowledge, any public announcement of conclusions,

 4     but the individual actions proposed were, in many cases, implemented

 5     within a matter of days or weeks after this meeting.

 6        Q.   Individual actions such as?

 7        A.   Well, if I could look at Professor Ekmecic's contribution, for

 8     example, he proposes that the regions that have already been created, by

 9     which he refers to the SAOs, the Serbian autonomous areas, should not be

10     allowed to form their own separate governments, but should be linked into

11     a single state headquartered in Sarajevo.

12             There --

13             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could scroll down the page first, and then

14     over to the next page until we see the name of Dr. Koljevic at the very

15     top.

16             THE WITNESS:  Dr. Koljevic advocates a plebiscite and taking a

17     plebiscite immediately.

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   And what does Mr. Ostojic advocate?

20        A.   He suggests that SDS representatives in power should consider --

21     should be permitted to withdraw if they wish, and that the party go into

22     a formal opposition position.  He also wants to ask the two parties that

23     passed the resolution to suspend their decision.

24        Q.   Who was Velibor Ostojic?

25        A.   Velibor Ostojic was -- became the Minister of Information in the

Page 1665

 1     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and was a specialist for media

 2     working in the party.

 3        Q.   Now, were these recommendations that you've listed among the

 4     actions that took place?

 5        A.   Yes.  Somewhere in here also is a recommendation for the

 6     establishment of an assembly, a separate body.  Well, at point 2 here,

 7     just before Dr. Karadzic speaks, "create a parallel body of authority

 8     which would primarily be reflected in the creation of a Serbian

 9     parliament."  That step was taken on October 24th, 1991.  A referendum

10     was -- the Serb leaders organised a referendum for the 9th and 10th of

11     November, 1991; and in December, took steps towards formation of a

12     separate Serb polity within Bosnia-Herzegovina, a step which they

13     formalised on the 9th of January, 1992.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, then, before moving on, could I ask

15     that this document be marked as an exhibit, please.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P330, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             MS. EDGERTON:

21        Q.   Now, you've noted the founding of -- you've noted the creation of

22     a Serb parliament on 24 October 1991, lines 10 and 11 of page46.  Was

23     that what you called as a parliament actually called a Serb parliament?

24        A.   It was first known as the Assembly of the Serbian People of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It subsequently was renamed in -- sometime in late

Page 1666

 1     summer of 1992 as the Assembly of Republika Srpska.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I ask that 65 ter number 2071 be produced,

 3     please.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This is not an objection.  This is a request that

 5     when Ms. Edgerton is asking questions concerning the Bosnian Serb

 6     parliament or the founding of such an institution, that she identifies it

 7     as being a Bosnian Serb parliament, because the word "Serb" and the

 8     potential connotation of such a word has far-reaching consequences; and

 9     since we're trying to identify a specific group, I'd appreciate that.

10             The answer, obviously, discusses a Bosnian Serb parliament, but

11     the term "Serb" has a great deal of meaning and can go far, and I'm just

12     asking that that be done in the future.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any response, madam?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, I'll take it on, Your Honour.  I was

15     only using the words of the witness, which is why I referred to the page

16     and line numbers; but, of course, I'll take it on.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  2071, I believe was the 65 ter number I asked for.

19     Thank you.

20        Q.   Do you recognise the documents that appear on your screen,

21     Dr. Donia?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   What are they?

24        A.   These are excerpts from the --

25        Q.   Let me just stop you for a moment.

Page 1667

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  I ask for your indulgence, Your Honour.  I think

 2     we have a document displayed that I didn't intend to be displayed.  Your

 3     indulgence.

 4             I should note this is because, Your Honour, we've got a number of

 5     translations and revised translations and excerpts, and I'll be more

 6     specific in identifying the one I want displayed.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The one you now want is not 2071?

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  No. The one I want, Your Honour, is actually

 9     2071.02, in English, and the original is also 2071.02.  My apologies,

10     Your Honour.  No.

11             Your Honour, we'll move on because I don't wish to take the

12     Court's time while we work through this; and if it's a point that needs

13     to be come back to, with everyone's permission, I'll come back to it

14     later.

15        Q.   Dr. Donia, now that we've come to the founding of the Assembly of

16     Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I'd like to revert back to the

17     theme we were discussing earlier in your testimony, which was the SDS

18     notion of the nature of the relation that the Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina would have with Yugoslavia, and ask you whether you

20     found in your continued research, in connection with these reports and

21     otherwise, evidence of continued SDS support for this notion?

22             That's because I'm dating it in time now.  Now the Assembly of

23     Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina has been established.  So within the

24     Assembly, have you found evidence of continued SDS support for this

25     notion?

Page 1668

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I ask, then, 65 ter number 2079 be called

 3     up, and just your indulgence again for a moment, Your Honour.

 4             Once it's called up, I'll be able to direct us to the appropriate

 5     page.  2079.  If you go to page 62, please, in the English, and pages 78

 6     and 79 of the Serbo-Croatian.  The Serbo-Croatian is correct, and I'm

 7     just going to get you the exact page.

 8             Just to put it in context, Your Honour, the difficulty I might

 9     run into, and I hope it doesn't come up frequently at all, is because

10     we've obtained CLSS translations of the display paragraphs, in the event

11     there was need to refer to those.  So sometimes I need to distinguish

12     between one translation and the other one.

13             Your indulgence for a moment, please, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You've got it.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  I see everything is displayed appropriately here

16     now.  Thank you.

17        Q.   Could I direct you to the part on page 78 of the B/C/S and the

18     bottom of page 62, where you see -- where you see Momcilo Krajisnik

19     speaking.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go over to the next paragraph on

21     both of those pages -- sorry, if we could continue on to the next pages.

22     Now, on page 62, which is now displayed in English, please go down to the

23     paragraph on the bottom which begins:  "Gentlemen, if we succeed in

24     completing a federal BiH ..."  Keep going.  Thank you.

25             The same paragraph is now displayed on the screen, and it is the

Page 1669

 1     last paragraph on page 79.

 2        Q.   Dr. Donia, I apologise for the preamble, but if you could look at

 3     this quotation of Mr. Krajisnik's, which begins with, "... if we succeed

 4     in creating a federal BiH ..." and ends with "... the Serbian people

 5     should be united more than now than ever before ..."

 6             Perhaps I could ask you this:  Is this some evidence of continued

 7     support for the notion we've been discussing?

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, he can -- the witness can tell us what it

10     is.  The notion that -- the question, as framed, is leading.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith--

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  "Some evidence," I mean, he can explain what it

13     is.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, you know, we're having here an

15     expert witness who is being called upon to give his opinion.  He is here

16     to give opinion evidence.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by she's

17     leading.  He's following --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I can explain to you precisely what I mean, if

19     you want, which is --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like me to finish what I was saying?

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Sure.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please let me.  The witness has been explaining a

23     particular theme that he says he's identified in the speeches of various

24     speakers in the SDS, and what he's being asked is whether he can pick up

25     the same theme here.  This answer is going to be, Yes, it's there, or No,

Page 1670

 1     it's not there.  Now, what can be leading in that with dealing with an

 2     expert witness?

 3             MR. GUY-SMITH:  The manner in which you've framed the issue and

 4     framed the question is distinct from that which is being said by

 5     Ms. Edgerton.  As you just said, he's being asked whether he can pick up

 6     the same here -- same theme here.  Now, as a thematic approach, it's

 7     distinct from the question of "some evidence."  It is that language that

 8     I am objecting to.

 9             If the question was framed as you had framed it, whether you pick

10     up the same theme here, then I would have no objection.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's check out what Madam Edgerton had asked.

12             Now, the question was:  "Dr. Donia, I apologise for all the

13     preamble, but if you could look at this quotation of Mr. Krajisnik which

14     begins with '... if we succeed with creating a federal BiH ...' and ends

15     with '... the Serbian people should be united more than now than ever

16     before ...'

17             "Perhaps I should ask you this:  Is this some evidence of

18     continued support for the notion we have been discussing?"

19             The answer to that would be yes or no.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I understand your position, and I stand by what I

21     said.  If she had asked the question with regard to a thematic response

22     and do we have the same thematic issue, then I would not have stood on my

23     feet.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  The issue is whether or not this statement is

Page 1671

 1     consistent with the notion we've been discussing previously, Your

 2     Honours, and I think the issue comes across in the initial question.

 3             Either way, it's a yes or no answer, isn't it?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is overruled.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you recall the question?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Are you in a position to answer the question?

 9        A.   Yes, I am, and the answer is yes.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I then ask, Your Honour, that this 65 ter

11     number - and, again, administratively, I'm going into -- I feel I'm going

12     into murky waters, Your Honour - but 65 ter number 02079, pages 61 and 62

13     of the English and 78 and 79, be marked as exhibits.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Including the page 1s?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             They are so admitted.  May they please be given an exhibit

20     number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  They are exhibited as Exhibit P331, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MS. EDGERTON:

24        Q.   Now, Dr. Donia, perhaps I could ask you:  Did this notion evolve

25     in any way at all after the outbreak of war in 1992?

Page 1672

 1        A.   Yes.  This notion of -- you're referring, I take it, to the

 2     notion of a preference for Yugoslavia as federal Yugoslavia with the Serb

 3     state as the backup or secondary option?

 4        Q.   Quite so.

 5        A.   Yes, it did, because after -- or after the war began, the

 6     principal goal and activities of the Bosnian Serb leaders were directed

 7     at achieving international recognition for the Bosnian Serb polity.

 8     Therefore, the Yugoslav option was effectively dead, and the alternative

 9     became, then, the primary goal in the context of international

10     recognition.

11             So the precise form that this took now was to seek recognition

12     for the Bosnian Serb polity, recognising in the practical sense that the

13     road toward a unified state, unified Serb state, would become -- would be

14     something down the road, sought to do nothing that would compromise the

15     ultimate reaching that goal, but at the same time wanted to secure

16     recognition as an important interim step on the way to it.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps, at this juncture, I could ask for 65 ter

19     number 2150.01 to be displayed, please.

20             It's previously been marked - again, administrative murky waters,

21     Your Honour - but it's been previously marked as Exhibit 218, but I'm not

22     clear whether the whole document has been marked as Exhibit 218 or

23     certain excerpted pages of the document.  But I could certainly indicate

24     which pages I would, in due course, be interested in displaying.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Exhibit 218 is page 41.

Page 1673

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Then could I ask for 02150.01, page 16 of the

 2     English transcript and, I think, page 16 of the Serbo-Croatian to be

 3     displayed, please.

 4             I see page 16, and there I note -- that's e-court page 16 of the

 5     English transcript.  There I note Aleksa Buha is the speaker, and if we

 6     could just go slowly through his speech until we get to page 19.

 7             And, for the record and everyone's information, these are minutes

 8     of the 40th Assembly session, 40th session of the Republika Srpska

 9     Assembly, held in Brcko on 11 May 1994.

10             And in the English now, can we keep going slowly through until we

11     come to e-court page 19, and then I'll deal with the location of

12     the B/C/S.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, just before we go ahead, can we

14     just sort out how we name our exhibits.  Exhibit 218 --

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- is 65 ter 02150.01.

17             Now, you're using exactly the same 65 ter number here, and we are

18     going to get a different exhibit number for this, but the 65 ter number

19     is exactly the same.  I think you've got to sort that one out first.

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, ma'am, you'll have to sort out the 65 ter

22     numbering here now.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I do.  If I may, Your Honour, just for clarity,

24     and it will help certainly all of us in the future.  Should the pages I'm

25     refer to be accepted as exhibits, I would assume they would be marked as

Page 1674

 1     part of 02150.01.  Am I correct in that assumption?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, accepting that 0215.01 is already

 3     Exhibit 218.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Okay.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And now this one is going to get a new exhibit

 6     number.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we -- do we need to give it a different

 8     exhibit number if it's different pages of the same large document, Your

 9     Honour?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You will tell us what you want to do.  If you want

11     us to be part of that previous exhibit, then that's no problem.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I think that's what we had discussed.

14                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I was talking across the aisle.  I believe that's

16     what we discussed.  We actually had a meeting in which we were trying to

17     figure out a way of coordinating this particular issue, when we're

18     dealing with one exhibit and there are a number of different pages

19     because it's a voluminous exhibit that are picked out.

20             I believe that the solution suggested by Ms. Edgerton was what we

21     discussed.  We were going to try, as an experimental phase, to see

22     whether or not it was going to work or not.  But I believe what she's

23     suggested is what had been discussed by all parties, including the

24     register, and we also received the assistance of the Chamber.  We were

25     trying to figure out a way to make it work.

Page 1675

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But what I understood Madam Edgerton to be

 2     suggesting was that it be given a different exhibit number.  Now, that

 3     won't work.  If it comes under exactly the same 65 ter number, the only

 4     way is to then -- if this page 16 that she is now going to refer to is

 5     admitted into evidence, the only way, if it comes under that 65 ter

 6     number, is to make it part of Exhibit 218.

 7             That's the only way you can do it.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you agreed to that?

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That's what we thought about doing, because that

13     way you'd have -- you would have all in one --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- package for that particular exhibit.  That was

16     the whole.  There were some technical issues that we thought might be a

17     problem, but we were getting research on those to see if they're going to

18     work.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Mr. Registrar, could you go to page 19 of the

23     English transcript.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not 16 -- oh, you start at 16.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  To identify who the speaker was, Your Honour,

Page 1676

 1     Mr. Aleksa Buha, and I'll ask a question about that in a few minutes.

 2             Your indulgence for a moment.

 3        Q.   Dr. Donia --

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Actually, let me get the B/C/S on the screen and

 5     sorted first, please.  Page 16 of the B/C/S transcript, second paragraph,

 6     starting at line 8 from the top of the paragraph, I hope.

 7        Q.   Dr. Donia, if I could direct you to Mr. Buha's comments about

 8     two-thirds of the way down the paragraph on the right-hand side,

 9     beginning with the sentence, "As for ..." which appears on the far

10     right-hand side of this paragraph, seven lines up from the bottom:  "As

11     for the political organisation ..."

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I'd like to ask you two questions.  First of all, do you know who

14     Aleksa Buha was at the time?

15        A.   Yes.  Aleksa Buha was -- he became the foreign minister of the

16     Bosnian Serb polity -- of the Serbian -- of the Bosnian Serb polity.

17        Q.   Now, these articulations by Mr. Buha of the options available to

18     the Bosnian Serb polity, do you view them as being consistent with your

19     analysis of the evolution?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   This -- we see here this kind of new wrinkle in the post-war that

23     began -- that was articulated after the war began already entering.  That

24     is, on the one hand, is the recognition of the Bosnian Serb polity

25     internationally, and the other is ultimate unification with Serbia.  Here

Page 1677

 1     he says, "... our primary option is still uniting with Serbia; and if

 2     not, then the alternative would be independence."

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, Your Honours, could I ask that page 19 of the

 5     English translation of this 65 ter number 2150.01, and page 16 of the

 6     B/C/S be added to Prosecution Exhibit P218, please, as part of the

 7     exhibit, given that they're extracts from the same umbrella document.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those pages are admitted, and they will become

 9     part of Exhibit P218.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we now move to 65 ter number 2226, please, a

13     transcript of the 7th session of the Bosnian -- of the Assembly of

14     Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 15 February 1992.

15             And on the B/C/S original, I'd like page 43, please, second

16     paragraph from the bottom; on the English translation, I'd like, please,

17     page 26, fourth paragraph.  I hope that's correct, yes.  Fourth

18     paragraph, starting with "Let Serbia and Montenegro ..."  Thank you.

19             I see, perhaps for the sake of the record, we should go back to

20     the previous page to identify the speaker --

21             Oh, no.  Your indulgence, please.  I apologise.  Thank you.

22             The speaker here is Mr. Vojo Kupresanin.  That's on page 25, and

23     if we could go over to page 26 again.

24        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention, Dr. Donia, to the paragraph

25     that begins, "As for the JNA ..." and the paragraph following that which

Page 1678

 1     begins, "Let Serbia and Montenegro ..."

 2             Can you see those paragraphs?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   First of all, do you know who Mr. Kupresanin was?

 5        A.   Mr. Kupresanin was -- Kupresanin was at that time the President

 6     of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment.

 8        Q.   Could you just explain in a nutshell, succinctly, what the

 9     Autonomous Region of the Krajina was for the benefit of the Trial

10     Chamber?

11        A.   The Autonomous Region of Krajina was the renamed Community of

12     Municipalities of Bosnian Krajina, the organisation that was founded in

13     late April 1991 in the Bosnian Krajina, consisting of Serb-majority

14     municipalities in that area.  In September of 1991, at the time that

15     other Serbian autonomous regions were created, the Community of

16     Municipalities of Bosnian Krajina was renamed to be closer in name to

17     these other SAOs and was given the name ARK, or Autonomous Region of

18     Krajina.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the articulations of Mr. Kupresanin that we've

20     pointed to in these documents, do you view them as being consistent with

21     your explanation of the evolution of this notion of the options available

22     for the SDS?

23        A.   Yes.  At this time, he is again moving into it this -- towards

24     this phase after the beginning of the war, when the prospect of

25     Yugoslavia as a federal state has pretty well collapsed; and he's looking

Page 1679

 1     at, first of all, the Serbian republic, by which he means the Bosnian

 2     Serb polity, joining Serbia and Montenegro which are to be the nucleus of

 3     the future Yugoslavia.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, could these pages of 65 ter

 6     number 0226, and I would ask for the B/C/S pages 43 and 44, because I

 7     think the highlight quotations go over two pages, and page 26 of the

 8     English, be marked as exhibits, please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They are.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  And, of course, page 1 also, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of course.

12             Madam Registrar, every time we admit an exhibit, we start with

13     page 1 just to be able to see what the topics are about, and then the

14     pages that are being admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I will make a note in

16     e-court.  The document will become Exhibit P332.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, moving on to another 65 ter number, 2160.01,

19     pages of which have previously been marked as P231, but not these pages,

20     being transcripts of the 53rd session of the Assembly of Republika

21     Srpska, held in Jahorina on 28 August 1995.

22             In the B/C/S, I'd like to take us to page 84, first paragraph.

23     Tell me if I'm going too fast, please, Mr. Registrar.  Page 84 -- no, I'm

24     sorry, 84, not 48.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On my notes, Exhibit P231, I have it as 65 ter

Page 1680

 1     01260, not 2160.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence, please, Your Honour, to let me

 3     check with my case manager.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Sometimes I transpose numbers, so I may be

 6     apologising to you very soon.  We'll see.

 7             I'm informed by Ms. Javier that in e-court, 2160.01 is, indeed,

 8     P231.  We should perhaps see if our records all correspond.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe it's me who transposed numbers.  Thank you.

10     I'm sorry.  I'll make the correction.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             Page 84, please, of the B/C/S, Mr. Registrar, first paragraph,

13     ninth to the seventeenth line, to the best of what I'm informed; and the

14     English translation, page 66.

15             Your indulgence for a moment.

16             I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I always feel more comfortable if I can

17     identify the sentence on the page with my own eyes before we proceed

18     further, rather than just rattling out some instructions.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would you like more time to do that, like a break?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  That might be convenient, Your Honour.  Thank you

21     for the suggestion.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  All right.  Then we'll take a break and come back

23     at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

24                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

Page 1681

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Edgerton, you have now found your

 2     bearings.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I have, Your Honour.

 4             If it please Your Honour, I'd just like to note for the record

 5     that the appearances have changed.  Mr. Harmon has been called away, and

 6     I'm assisted now for the rest of today's session by my colleague

 7     Mr. Evangelos Thomas.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Welcome, Mr. Thomas.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, my bearings have taken me to --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To page 66 of 65 ter 02160.01.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Indeed, Your Honour, beginning with the sentence

12     approximately halfway down the page:  "We have no desire to become a

13     separate state," a statement by Radovan Karadzic.

14        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you see the remarks by Dr. Karadzic that I've just

15     indicated for the record?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And could you please review that quotation right down to where we

18     see, if I have it correctly, "... it's an attempt to secure both."

19     Karadzic reads:  "We have no desire to become a separate state," and

20     further.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you view this statement as being consistent with your

23     hypothesis, if I can call it that, about the evolving or the evolution of

24     the options for the Bosnian Serb polity?

25        A.   Yes.  This being in wartime, late in the war, we see that

Page 1682

 1     expression of a desire for ultimate unity with other Serb polities in the

 2     context of Yugoslavia, but also considering an interim step which would

 3     be recognition.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, if I may, could this page 66 of the

 6     English language version and B/C/S page 84 be marked as additions to

 7     Exhibit P231.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Mr. Donia, recognition by?

 9             THE WITNESS:  The international community.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             This page is admitted into evidence and its corresponding B/C/S

12     page, and they will form part of Exhibit P231.  Thank you very much.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Now, Dr. Donia, we've been dealing up until this point

15     exclusively with expressions or articulations by the political leadership

16     in the Republika Srpska and Serbia of the goals of the SDS.

17             I'd like to know, have you seen in the course of your research

18     evidence of RS military leaders expressing themselves on this same

19     notion?

20        A.   Yes, I have.

21        Q.   Could you tell us where?

22        A.   There are some expressions of this notion expressed within the

23     Bosnian Serb Assembly, which was periodically addressed by senior

24     generals of the Army of Republika Srpska, and also in interviews

25     published in principally the Belgrade newspaper NIN.

Page 1683

 1        Q.   What type of a newspaper was NIN?  Are you aware?

 2        A.   Yes.  NIN stands for Nedeljne Informativne Novine, which is a

 3     Weekly Informative Newspaper.  It, as a weekly, did a lot of conventional

 4     stories, but also engaged in a lot of interviews with key players in the

 5     Yugoslav crisis throughout the 1990s.  Some of those were quite extensive

 6     interviews.  One case even went to devoting an entire issue to a series

 7     of interviews.  So it was a remarkably independent newspaper operating in

 8     Belgrade.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I ask 65 ter number 1268 be displayed,

11     please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say 1268?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  1268.

14             If we could go to e-court page 17, bottom right-hand corner on

15     the B/C/S copy, thank you, and on the English version, pages 36 and 37,

16     please.

17        Q.   Now, just with respect to the first pages of these images,

18     Dr. Donia, that you saw on the screen in front of you, did you recognise

19     what they were?

20        A.   Well, there was a picture of General Ratko Mladic on the cover

21     of NIN.

22        Q.   Thank you.  If I could direct you to the second full paragraph on

23     English page 36, it appears at the bottom of your screen so far:  "That

24     was the Operation Lukavac 93.  What was the area it encompassed?"  This

25     is an interview with General Ratko Mladic.

Page 1684

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Could you scroll further down, please,

 3     Mr. Registrar, on the English page.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Could you have a look at the answer to that question that General

 5     Mladic gives, please.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Registrar has just given you the last line of the

 8     answer to that question.  Now, if we go back to the previous page in

 9     English, General Mladic refers to three names, Kupa, Korana, and Timok.

10             Are you familiar with those names at all?

11        A.   All three are rivers.  The Kupa is a small river that runs, in

12     part, along the border between Croatia and Slovenia, and joins with the

13     Korana river at Karlovac in Croatia.  Timok is a river that for a very

14     short period or short length defines the border between Serbia and

15     Bulgaria.

16        Q.   So, broadly speaking, then, when General Mladic refers to the aim

17     of Operation Lukavac, Lukavac 93, as he does in this answer, as being,

18     among other things, "the territorial unification of the Serbian people

19     from Kupa and Korana to Timok" - and I'm quoting the article here - what

20     geographic area does this encompass?

21        A.   It would be a wide swathe of territory, including all of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina, a good portion of Croatia, and all or most -- or at

23     the very least, most of Serbia.

24        Q.   Do you view this statement of General Mladic as consistent with

25     the articulations we've been looking at so far of the notions of Serbian

Page 1685

 1     unity that we've been discussing?

 2        A.   Yes.  He suggests here that -- the "and" in that sentence

 3     suggests or states that the aim of the operation was joining parts of the

 4     Bosnian Serb polity, and, at the same, time contributing to the

 5     territorial unification of the Serb people over this much broader swathe

 6     of territory.  Effectively, he is stating that the Bosnian Serb portion

 7     of this is a subset of the broader goal of Serb unification.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  I wonder, Your Honours, if I could ask, then, that

10     these pages of 65 ter 1268 - it's a 20-page article, Your Honour, in

11     B/C/S; in English, substantially more - this B/C/S page 17 and English

12     pages 36 and 37, plus page 1, be tendered as exhibits.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Edgerton.  We'll do that in a

14     moment.

15             But, Mr. Donia, just so that you take me along - I may be slow on

16     the uptake - this geographical area, he is describing an area where

17     Operation Lukavac took place.  Are you able to say whether this, in his

18     mind, was what he would like or would have loved to see constituting an

19     independent Serbian area, as he perceived it at the time; or did they

20     just happen to be in those areas at that point?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it was.  It was part of what he would have

22     loved to see and that part which was specifically the objective of

23     Operation Lukavac 93.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And trying to follow you while you are

25     talking and look at the map, I've been able to identify or to find on the

Page 1686

 1     map the rivers of Kupa and Korana.  Where would Timok be?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Timok is on the border with Bulgaria, far to the

 3     east, the border between Serbia and Bulgaria.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Thank you, sir.

 5             Those pages are then admitted into evidence.  May they please be

 6     given an exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P333, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:

10        Q.   Now, in regard to Serbian goals, Dr. Donia, I take from your two

11     reports, you're familiar with the strategic objectives of 12 May 1992 --

12        A.   Yes, I am.

13        Q.   -- is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, I am.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the speakers kindly not overlap for the

16     interpreters.  Thank you.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  My apologies, Madam Interpreter.

18             Could I have 65 ter number 02547 displayed, please.

19        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you recognise the documents on the screen in front

20     of you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And what are they?

23        A.   This is the excerpt from the Official Gazette of the Republika

24     Srpska from November of 1993, in which the six strategic goals that were

25     adopted on 12 May 1992 are published in what is probably their simplest

Page 1687

 1     and most authoritative form over the signature of -- or the printed

 2     signature of Momcilo Krajisnik.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, may this be marked as an exhibit,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so marked.  May it please be given an exhibit

 6     number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P334, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:

10        Q.   Dr. Donia, are you aware of who announced these strategic

11     objectives on 12 May 1992, prior to their adoption?

12        A.   Yes.  They were introduced and outlined to the Bosnian Serb

13     Assembly by Dr. Karadzic.

14        Q.   To your knowledge, did these goals persist for the Bosnian Serb

15     political and military leaders for the duration of the war?

16        A.   Yes, they did.  I've been able to identify many tens of

17     references to these strategic objectives in the course of deliberations

18     in the Bosnian Serb Assembly, always with the notion that they constitute

19     the authoritative guidelines for action of the Bosnian Serbs.

20        Q.   These strategic objectives, do you view them as being consistent

21     with the political and military leaders' articulated notions of Serbian

22     unity that we've been discussing here so far today?

23        A.   Yes, they are consistent.  They are a somewhat more specific

24     iteration of those goals pertaining to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Dr. Donia referred a little earlier to the fact

Page 1688

 1     that Serbian military leaders in Bosnia also did articulate this.  He

 2     didn't mention the names of those leaders.  I see you're still repeating

 3     the question and referring to political and military leaders articulating

 4     notions.

 5             Specifically which military leaders are these that you are

 6     referring to, Dr. Donia?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Well, I've mentioned General Mladic already.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I must have been asleep.

 9             THE WITNESS:  And I would also say General Gvero articulated

10     those ideals in the course of his several addresses to the Bosnian Serb

11     Assembly.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm awfully sorry.  I probably didn't hear those

13     references.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  If I may, Your Honour, can I ask Dr. Donia to

15     explain who General Gvero is.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means, you're the dominus litus.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Dr. Donia, who was -- when you speak of military leaders, you

19     mentioned the name of General Gvero.  Do you know who he was?

20        A.   Yes.  General Gvero was the deputy commander for morale, legal,

21     and religious affairs of the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb army, the

22     Army of Republika Srpska.  He also served as the principal representative

23     of the Main Staff to the Bosnian Serb Assembly, once General Mladic had

24     withdrawn from attending the sessions in 1993.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And just for completeness, who was General Mladic?

Page 1689

 1             THE WITNESS:  General Mladic was the Commander of the Main Staff

 2     of the VRS.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Now, Dr. Donia, at page 68, line 1, you noted that these

 5     objectives were consistent.  You said "... a more specific iteration of

 6     those goals pertaining to Bosnia-Herzegovina," referring to the Bosnian

 7     Serb goals.  I'd like to take you back to a couple of those goals by way

 8     of example.

 9             The second strategic objective refers to a corridor between

10     Semberija and Krajina.  To your mind, Dr. Donia, how is -- I'll ask you

11     two questions.  First of all, could you -- and I'll take you to a map in

12     this regard.  I'm going to ask you first, for the benefit of the Trial

13     Chamber, to identify the area covered by this corridor; and then, second,

14     how it -- in what way that goal is consistent with the positions

15     articulated.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.

17             Because it takes some time to upload these images in e-court,

18     Your Honour, I'd prefer to refer Dr. Donia to one of the maps in the map

19     book, and put it on the ELMO so he can better illustrate his propositions

20     to the Trial Chamber, with your leave.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  By his last answer, I think it might be more

23     useful for him to refer to map 6 in the map book, and that's already been

24     exhibited as P187.

25        Q.   Dr. Donia, could I now, looking at this map, just ask you to

Page 1690

 1     explain how the second strategic objective is consistent with the

 2     articulated goals.

 3        A.   Yes.  Thank you for bringing me back to the world of paper

 4     and ELMO.

 5             The corridor in question runs between the large swathe of

 6     territory, many municipalities of which have a Bosnian Serb majority, to

 7     the west of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the area of Semberija, which is in the

 8     north-east corner of Semberija.

 9             The corridor as it existed through much of the conflict widened

10     on both ends, but had a very limited width hugging the Sava River in the

11     area from approximately Brcko to Bosanski Samac.  Thus, the corridor

12     really refers to this, let's say, area right here very close to the

13     river, which was at times cut off by the forces of the Army of the

14     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian forces of the Croatian

15     Defence Community.  It was vital to the Serbs to have that open in order

16     to keep the two large wings here of Bosnian-controlled -- Bosnian

17     Serb-controlled territory contiguous with one another.

18        Q.   And --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, I'm not sure whether you intend

20     tendering the marked map, according to the witness's markings, at some

21     stage; and if that's your intention, rather than use the pointer that

22     he's using, maybe you would like him to use something that writes and he

23     can mark it.  That's, of course, if you want to tender it.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, looking at his explanation on the

25     record, I think his explanation serves as a very good illustration of his

Page 1691

 1     proposition without tendering the map.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're the dominus litus.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Dr. Donia, if we could move to the third objective, the

 5     establishment of the corridor in the Drina River Valley and the

 6     eradication of the Drina River as a border between the Serbian states.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Could you explain how, in your view, the achievement of this

 9     objective was consistent with this articulated notion of Serbian unity.

10     You may be able to do this without the map.  It's just by way of an

11     illustrative tool.

12        A.   Well, just for illustration, the Drina River originates here,

13     flows north, and then comes to define the boundary between

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia in this area, ultimately flowing into the

15     Sava.  That river has historically, that is, since about the nineteenth

16     century, early nineteenth century, been -- frequently functioned as a

17     border between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The Serb strategic

18     objectives wanted to eliminate that border so that it could be traversed

19     more easily and enhance the unity between Serbia and the Serb-controlled

20     areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  You can remove that map from the ELMO now, and

23     we'll revert back to e-court.

24             I'd like to take us back, please, to the article from NIN, which

25     has been marked as P133, the interview of Ratko Mladic, to page 37 of the

Page 1692

 1     e-court.  The 65 ter was 1268.

 2             Oh, my apologies, 333.  I'm grateful to all my colleagues for

 3     guiding me on this.  Prosecution Exhibit 333.  Now, page 37 of the

 4     English, thank you, and the B/C/S, page 17 again.

 5        Q.   Now, Dr. Donia, we earlier --

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  I see the printing is a little bit difficult to

 7     read on the English version.

 8             THE WITNESS:  It's legible to me.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:

10        Q.   Well, not to me, with respect.

11             Page 37 of the English version, I'd like to direct you to General

12     Mladic's response in the way of the first two sentences to the very next

13     question after the one we dealt with earlier.

14             The question is:  "The aim of the Operation Lukavac 93 was

15     certainly to prevent the Drina from becoming the Serbian border, but at

16     the same time Muslims had tried in every way to get to this river."

17             Can you look at the first two sentences of General Mladic's

18     response to this question?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we enlarge it a little bit.  I know Madam

20     Edgerton can now read it.  I can't.  It doesn't seem to work.

21             Carry on.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Maybe if it assists, I can, with Your Honours'

23     leave, I can read this out.  It is a bit blurry still.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

Page 1693

 1        Q.   Dr. Donia, here General Mladic says:  "For us Serbs west of the

 2     Drina, the River Drina had never been a border, nor will it ever be.  The

 3     Drina is our backbone."

 4             Is this consistent -- is this articulation by General Mladic

 5     consistent with the strategic objective number 3 -- the realisation of

 6     strategic objective number 3?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.  It could almost -- it is very nearly a simple

 8     restatement of it in language that was probably more commonly used at the

 9     time among Bosnian Serb leaders, that "the Drina is our backbone."

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  If we can move on please to 65 ter 06690, a

12     transcript of the 20th RS Assembly session held on 14 and 15 September

13     1992.

14             I'd like to direct us to the English, page 14, seventh line from

15     the bottom of the page, a statement by Radovan Karadzic; and B/C/S

16     page 16, fifteenth line from the bottom of the page.

17             Mr. Registrar, is there any way you can enlarge the English a

18     little bit further?  That's not bad.

19        Q.   On the fifteenth line up from the bottom of the page, Karadzic

20     says - if I could have your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour - at the

21     sentence beginning "The Drina is of great strategic importance ..."

22             MS. EDGERTON:  There we go.  I see it halfway across.  It's not

23     the fifteenth line.  It's the seventh line up from the bottom of the

24     page, Mr. Registrar.

25        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you see the passage from Dr. Karadzic that I'm

Page 1694

 1     highlighting?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is -- to your mind, is this statement by Karadzic an articulation

 4     of the importance of achieving strategic objective number 3 to the

 5     Bosnian Serbs?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, if I could please have your

 9     indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.  I'm advised certain pages of this

10     have already been entered as an objective.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  My apologies, Your Honour.  This is

13     Exhibit P203, and Ms. Javier's records indicate that the entire session

14     has been exhibited.  My apologies.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, if we could go further to 65 ter 02305.01,

17     which is a session of the Bosnian Serb -- sorry, the RS Assembly held in

18     Bjelaca on the 3rd of April, 1993.

19             If we could go in English, please, to page 38, the last paragraph

20     on the page; and B/C/S page 23.

21        Q.   I'd like to direct you, Dr. Donia, to a comment by an individual

22     named Dusko Pejovic.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  And we'll try and get a legible version of the

24     page up.  That's not bad.

25        Q.   I'd like to direct you to Mr. Pejovic where he refers to Gorazde

Page 1695

 1     as an oasis.  I think it's about the ninth line from the top of the

 2     paragraph.

 3        A.   Let's see.  Can you give me a sentence beginning?

 4        Q.   Your indulgence, please.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  My apologies, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   It's the sixth line up from the bottom:  "It is an oasis that we

 7     have to clear up as soon as possible ..."

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  First of all, Dr. Donia, are you familiar with who

10     Dusko Pejovic is?

11        A.   I'm afraid not, other than he was a member of the -- a delegate

12     to the Bosnian Serb Assembly.

13        Q.   As a historian, Dr. Donia, are you familiar with events in the

14     area under discussion in this passage, the area of Gorazde, in

15     April 1993?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What was the situation there at that time?

18        A.   Gorazde, Srebrenica, and Zepa were three enclaves in Eastern

19     Bosnia which at that time were surrounded by troops of the VRS, and were

20     the subject of humanitarian aid being delivered, when possible, by --

21     under UNPROFOR escort.  Gorazde, like the other two towns, were swelled

22     with Bosnian Muslims who -- from other parts of Eastern

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina who'd been driven out or gathered in those towns for

24     protection.

25        Q.   Do you, then, see Mr. Pejovic's statement as having any relation

Page 1696

 1     to the importance of strategic objective number 3 to the Bosnian Serb

 2     forces?

 3        A.   Yes.  In this statement, he adds the demographic dimension to the

 4     notion of establishing the Drina as a backbone or eliminating it as a

 5     border.  He's stating here that the liberation of these territories must

 6     necessarily be a part of securing the region as they envision it.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, could this 02305.01, B/C/S page 23,

 9     English page 38, be marked as an exhibit, please -- sorry, Your Honour.

10             Sorry, Your Honour.  I'm ahead of myself.  My apologies.  We're

11     on 65 ter 6690.  I misquoted.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are on 65 ter?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  No, Your Honour --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You were right.  Now you are wrong.  We are on

15     65 ter 03205.01, page 38 in the English.

16             It is admitted as an exhibit.  May it please be given an exhibit

17     number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P335, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  Thank you for your patience, Your Honour,

21     and everyone else in the courtroom.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We shall stay patient, ma'am.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, sir.

24             65 ter 2143.01 is the next document, I'd like to direct us to;

25     and that should be the transcript of the 33rd session of the Republika

Page 1697

 1     Srpska Assembly held in Mrkonjic Grad on 21 July 1993.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you please just repeat the 65 ter number.

 3     It's not appearing on the screen.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  2143.01.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Again, an administrative note, for some reason,

 7     since we resumed, these documents, the definition on them electronically,

 8     all seems to be rather fuzzy, and it's not making things easy for any of

 9     us, I suspect.  I thought it might have been the scanning of the first

10     document, but we seem to be seeing this phenomenon as we go through the

11     documents.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, ma'am.

13             Is the origin of this phenomenon in the OTP?  Quiet.  Quiet.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  It may be my eyes, Your Honour.  My colleague is

15     informing me that I'm the only one this time that has a blurry

16     transcript.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not the only one.

18             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Since we're taking a moment and dealing with

20     administrative matters, I have been informed that with regard to P203,

21     the entire document was not admitted; rather, pages 1 and, I believe, 55

22     were admitted.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Pages 1 and 55?

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, that's what I understood.  I think, at some

25     point, we better double-check it to make sure, because I think that may

Page 1698

 1     be a document in its entirety which has not been admitted.

 2             I don't know if you want to take the time to deal with that right

 3     now or at the conclusion of the session.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's deal with it right now, if we can

 5     double-check it.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me say, my notes don't indicate that any

 8     specific pages were admitted, but they also indicate that this was marked

 9     for identification, this exhibit.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Very well.  My notes indicate that pages 1 and 55

11     were the pages that were in discussion, and, I believe, yes, marked for

12     identification.  It's also a document, I believe, that's under seal.

13             Oh, wait a minute.  I take that back.  I take that back.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Are we able to get guidance either from the

15     Registry or from the case manager?

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If this might be of some help - it may be, I

17     don't know, because I don't know if I'm assisting - P217, the entire

18     document was admitted and they both deal with 20th sessions.  They're two

19     different 20th sessions, however.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Accepting that, P217 is a different 65 ter

21     number.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Correct.  I'm just trying to figure out why we're

23     having the decolage that we're having right now.  I can't figure that

24     out.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And according to my notes, Exhibit P217 was not

Page 1699

 1     admitted in its entirety.  It was pages 6, 12, and 13 that were admitted.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right.  Then that became -- I'm sorry.  I'm

 3     making it more confusing as opposed to less, because that became D8

 4     because we admitted the entire document.

 5             Never mind, forget about what I just said.  I was trying to make

 6     it easier.  What I think I am doing is making it more difficult.

 7             Going back to the original situation that we're in, forgetting

 8     about P217, my notes do not reflect the entire document was admitted.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're now talking about P203.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right.  I'm just going back to that.  I thought I

11     could be of some help, but apparently I was not.

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I guess the Registry will take precedence.

14     According to the Registry, the entire document was admitted, so we'll

15     defer to the registrar.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Fine.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In which case, if the entire document was

18     admitted, then where we are today at 65 ter 06690, page 14, will become

19     part of Exhibit P203.  Okay.

20             Thank you very much.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just ask the parties to double-check this.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry for trying to help.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your help is always appreciated, sir.  But we can

25     double-check that during the break and see whether everybody's correct.

Page 1700

 1             We're now back at 65 ter 02143.01.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, please.  If we could go to page 54 on the

 3     English, first paragraph, second and third line -- no.

 4             I'm sorry, Your Honours.  That's not what I have marked here, but

 5     I'd like to -- yeah, that's what I have marked here.

 6        Q.   I'd like to direct you, Dr. Donia, to the first paragraph, second

 7     and third lines, where you see Dr. Karadzic's -- an extract from a

 8     statement by Dr. Karadzic as to the significance of the Drina --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Could we have the B/C/S up?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, you can.  With respect, I need to get

12     one at a time before I see them.

13             The B/C/S is page 34, second paragraph from the bottom of the

14     page, last three lines.

15        Q.   In the meanwhile, Dr. Donia, did you have a chance to look at the

16     excerpt I've highlighted from -- a statement by Dr. Karadzic?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  What have you highlighted, Madam Edgerton?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  The sentence that begins "The significance of the

20     Drina for Republika Srpska ..."

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  And the passage ends with "... at this Assembly,"

23     the passage of interest.

24        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you find this statement also consistent with what

25     we've been discussing as being the importance of achieving the third

Page 1701

 1     strategic objective?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, if this could be marked as an

 5     exhibit, please.  65 ter number, as I've indicated, is 2143.01.  We're on

 6     page 34, and the corresponding B/C/S is page 54 --

 7             Sorry, Your Honours.  I think it's probably my fatigue, but

 8     again, I've inverted the numbers.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's page 54 in the English, ma'am.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, and thank you to Ms. Javier for guiding

13     me, as she does so ably.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             It is so admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P336, Your Honours.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   Dr. Donia, over the course of your research, have you come to a

19     view as to how you would characterise the strategic objectives?

20        A.   Well, as I've said, I think they were carefully considered,

21     adopted unanimously by the Assembly, and were guidelines which were

22     considered firm guidelines for the civilian and military objectives of

23     the Bosnian Serbs in the course of the war and thereafter.

24        Q.   So, from what you're saying, are we to understand that you would

25     characterise these strategic objectives of 12 May 1992 as both political

Page 1702

 1     and military goals?

 2        A.   Yes.  They were determined by political leaders, passed on to

 3     military commanders, who then accepted them as goals for their own

 4     operations.

 5        Q.   In relation to this, I'd like to take you to a document you've

 6     referred to in your background report on the Sarajevo siege.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  It's 65 ter number 2070.

 8        Q.   Do you see this document on the screen in front of you,

 9     Dr. Donia?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Do you recognise the document?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Could you tell us what it is?

14        A.   These are minutes of a meeting held on May 14, 1992, attended by

15     several major military leaders and presidents of a number of Serbian

16     municipalities in the Bosnian Krajina.

17        Q.   When you speak of important military leaders, perhaps I could

18     draw your attention to the first name mentioned on the list of attendees

19     at the meeting.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  That's on page 1 of the English, note 1; and

21     page 1 of the B/C/S also, note 1.

22        Q.   Who's the first name on the list of attendees?

23        A.   Colonel Stanislav Galic.

24        Q.   Are you familiar with this individual?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1703

 1        Q.   Who is he?

 2        A.   He at this time was commander of the 30th Partisan Division,

 3     which was operating in or based in Bosnian Krajina.  He subsequently went

 4     on to become a general and commander of the Romanija units of the VRS,

 5     the Army of Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Now, with respect to this document, could you explain to us -- or

 7     do you attach any significance to this document in terms of the theme

 8     that we've moved on to, the strategic objectives as political and

 9     military goals?

10        A.   Yes.  It is, first of all, an indication of the need that was

11     felt for close coordination between civilian leaders and military

12     commanders in the areas of operation of the military and the individual

13     municipalities.  It, furthermore, highlights the strategic goals or

14     objectives that were presented two days before in the Assembly -- Bosnian

15     Serb Assembly session in Banja Luka, and repeated or -- repeated with

16     similar but not quite identical language by participants in the meeting.

17        Q.   Can I just ask you, going back to page 83, line 16 to 19, you

18     mentioned that Galic became the commander of the Romanija units of

19     the VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska.  Are you aware what generally the

20     activities of the Romanija units of the VRS were during the course of the

21     war?

22        A.   Yes.  Those were units responsible for the siege of Sarajevo.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, if we can, in this document, go over to

24     page 2 of the English, thank you, just to give Dr. Donia an opportunity

25     to have a view of the document in its entirety, page 3 and page 4.

Page 1704

 1             The next page on the English version.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Now, looking at the points listed at the top of page 4, numbers 2

 3     to 6, could I draw your attention to item number 5 which says:  "It was

 4     stated that Sarajevo must either be divided or razed to the ground."

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you attach any significance to this; and if so, what?

 7        A.   Well, it indicates that not everyone walked away from the session

 8     on the 12th of May with the notion that Sarajevo should only be divided,

 9     and, as such, represents his belief that the notion advanced was that

10     Sarajevo should either by divided or razed.

11        Q.   This being who?  Who are you referring to?

12        A.   I missed the speaker here.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could go back to the earlier page, please,

14     the preceding page.

15             THE WITNESS:  This is the president of Mrkonjic Grad municipal

16     assembly, Mr. Malidza, who was speaking.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Your Honours, could this document

18     please be tendered adds an exhibit.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted as an exhibit.  May it please be

20     given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P337.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I would like to go to a further document which has

24     actually already been admitted as an exhibit, P149; 65 ter number 00379.

25             If we can -- thank you.

Page 1705

 1        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you see the documents on the screen in front of

 2     you?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Do you recognise them?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Could you tell us what they are?

 7        A.   These are, in English and the original B/C/S, the report prepared

 8     in the course of 199 -- early 1993, I believe, on the status and

 9     combat-readiness of the VRS in the course of 1992.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I take all of us to page 159 of the

11     translation and the B/C/S page 43, please.

12        Q.   Dr. Donia, could I direct you to, I think, the fourth line in

13     this first full paragraph that begins with the phrase, "The strategic

14     objectives of our war," and ask you to review that passage down to the

15     end of the page, please.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Mr. Registrar, if you could scroll down

17     slowly, it may take the rest of us some time to have a look as well.

18     Thank you.

19        Q.   Have you had a chance to look at the passage I've identified,

20     Dr. Donia?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, generally speaking, is this passage consistent with your

23     articulated view that the strategic objectives were not only political

24     but military objectives as well?

25        A.   Yes.  They would be consistent with my view that they were --

Page 1706

 1     they originated with the civilian leadership and were assigned to and

 2     accepted by the military leaders of the VRS.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, in respect of this document, I don't have any

 5     other questions, Your Honour.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me.  Apparently, the B/C/S version is too

 7     small for Mr. Perisic to be able to read it in the original, so I don't

 8     know if it can be enlarged or if Ms. Edgerton could just read out what

 9     she's referring to, then he would be appreciative of what specifically is

10     being discussed.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, is it possible to enlarge it?

12             Mr. Perisic, are you able to see it now?

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Apparently, it's the wrong page.  I'm going to

14     defer here to Mr. Lukic because he's a native speaker and he might be of

15     a little bit more assistance.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, can you help us?

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This page in the B/C/S version,

18     although it has these dots and visually seems to correspond to the

19     English version, has absolutely nothing to do with the English version.

20     These things are totally different.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, can you come to the rescue?

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps, it would be simplest if

23     Ms. Edgerton just read the text out in English, and then we'll be able to

24     hear what the interpreters from the B/C/S booth have to say.  This will

25     make it easier for us to follow, because otherwise it will be difficult

Page 1707

 1     for us to follow everything.  If it is read out in English and

 2     interpreted into B/C/S, the witness can then give his opinion, and it

 3     will be easier for all of us to follow.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, are you able to do that?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, I am, Your Honours, and I wouldn't be

 6     able to provide you with any other kind of hard copy or answer as quickly

 7     as it would take me to read the relevant portion out, so with your

 8     permission.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Just put the copy of the translation on,

10     read it, and let it be interpreted.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  No, Mr. Registrar, with respect, I can't read the

12     Cyrillic version.  Page 159 of the translation, please.  I see it --

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have now been provided with the

14     page in the B/C/S version, and it corresponds to the English version.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Wonderful.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's just wait for the registrar to give us the

18     English side of the story.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Meanwhile, Your Honours, if I may, I would like

20     to make a correction regarding Exhibit P203 which he discussed earlier.

21     Only pages 1, 51, and 55 were admitted on 10 November; therefore, page 14

22     is admitted today.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar, and I

24     think that's what we did today.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, not to leave P149 immediately, just for the

Page 1708

 1     sake of absolute clarity, and for the record, which is, of course, most

 2     important, can I indicate that this page, which Mr. Lukic says is the

 3     corresponding page, bears the ERN number 0060-7477.

 4             And if I could have some guidance as to which e-court page number

 5     this is, that would be very helpful, because on my screen it only shows

 6     up as page 1 of 1, or a 65 ter number; just to make sure we have all the

 7     information to be able to identify this page on the record.

 8             I'm advised it's page 139.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  139 in the B/C/S?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  In the B/C/S, I'm advised it's page 139 of 65

11     ter 00379.  Perhaps, since this matter is going to go over until

12     tomorrow, Mr. Lukic and I could just double-check that, and advise Your

13     Honours tomorrow morning as to what we're able to agree on.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             I should say, Your Honour, I'm about to move into another theme,

17     and I note the time.  I'm in Your Honours' hands.  It's not going to be a

18     five-minute theme.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We've got ten.  I don't whether you can -- can it

20     be a ten-minute theme?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  We'll see, Your Honour.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's try.

23             MS. EDGERTON:

24        Q.   Dr. Donia, to remain with your report on the background to the

25     siege of Sarajevo, I'd like to refer to page 3 of that report where you

Page 1709

 1     noted reference to the census of 1991 in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2             You're familiar with that census?

 3        A.   Yes, I am.

 4        Q.   How so?

 5        A.   I've been looking at it for a number of years with the purpose of

 6     understanding the situation on the eve of the war and also the changes in

 7     demographic distribution of groups from earlier censuses.

 8        Q.   Now, this and earlier censuses you've mentioned, are these the

 9     only sources you've consulted with a view to understanding the changes

10     of -- changes in demographic distribution of groups in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   No.  The whole issue of the 1991 census was, in fact, then and

13     remains, controversial, so there is a substantial body of literature in

14     the press from the time and subsequent articles analysing the census and

15     assessing its validity and its import.

16        Q.   Could you give us an idea of exactly what other sources you've

17     consulted in this regard?

18        A.   Well, there are some articles by demographers.  There are some

19     articles - I can't give you specific names - but there's a very nice

20     article by a human demographer -- I'm sorry, a geographer, human

21     geographer, in a journal that looks at the relationship between the

22     competition between groups and subsequent violence in individual

23     municipalities.  There was also a very, I thought, illuminating series of

24     articles in Oslobodjenje at the time about the census and its

25     significance.

Page 1710

 1        Q.   Given all this, I wonder if you could very briefly explain to us

 2     how the different ethnic groups in Bosnia-Herzegovina were distributed

 3     around the republic -- former republic.

 4        A.   There was a broad distribution throughout the republic of --

 5     throughout most of the republic of all three major ethnic groups.  The

 6     distribution had some exceptions.  There are very few -- or were very few

 7     Croats along the eastern part of Bosnia.  There is a swathe of territory

 8     in western Herzegovina which is, for all practical purposes, purely

 9     Croat; another part of the western segment of Bosnia that is almost

10     exclusively Serb; and, finally, kind of an enclave in the north-west

11     which is almost exclusively Bosnian Muslim.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  I wonder if I could now call up a map which

13     appears as 65 ter number 9224.  It's map 5 in Your Honours' map books,

14     Your Honours' and my friends' map books.  That might take a couple of

15     minutes to come up.  9224.  Very quick.

16        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you see a map on the screen in front of you?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Do you recognise it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could you tell us what it is?

21        A.   This is a map produced by a private provider AlterMedia on the

22     basis of census results from 1991 which presents the distribution of

23     ethnic groups by municipalities in a rather unusual way.  It gives -- it

24     assigns a colour to the majority group in that municipality, whether that

25     majority is absolute or relative; and then represents other groups by

Page 1711

 1     means of vertical bars.  And in a series of data that I think are very

 2     difficult to accurately present visually, this comes as close as I have

 3     seen of representing the situation in each individual municipality.

 4        Q.   Now, just to be -- so that we're all clear, is each ethnic group

 5     assigned a different colour?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   So I see this map is in various shades of green, red, and blue.

 8     Can you explain what those colours represent?

 9        A.   The red is Serbs.  The red colour is Serb absolute majority in

10     that municipality; lined-through is Serb relative majority.  Blue is

11     Croats, and green is Muslims.

12        Q.   Have you worked with and analysed this map before?

13        A.   Yes, I have.

14        Q.   Have you compared the data as represented in this map to other

15     demographic sources you've consulted in the course of your research?

16        A.   Yes, I have.

17        Q.   And do you find the representations, then, on this map to be

18     reliable?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, going back again to the strategic objectives that we've

21     discussed earlier and where you referred to another map as an

22     illustrative tool, could I now ask you to take the computer pen from the

23     monitor in front of you and indicate the territorial parameters,

24     approximately, of strategic objective number 2; that being a corridor

25     between Semberija and Krajina.

Page 1712

 1        A.   Okay.  This is fancy.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Welcome to the world of technology.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

 4             That corridor runs just approximately - and I'd have to say it's

 5     at most an approximation - but the bar of the barbell here is what we're

 6     speaking to in the case of the -- what's called the corridor or the

 7     Posavina Corridor.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:

 9        Q.   Now, you've indicated, on the record, you've drawn a barbell, so

10     I see that, two circles linked by an oblong.  Could you explain what the

11     circle on the right-hand represents?

12        A.   Well, that's Semberija area with its probably major city being

13     Bijeljina.

14        Q.   And the bar on -- sorry, the circle on the left-hand?

15        A.   The circle on the left is my rather pathetic representation of

16     the territory of Bosnian Krajina.

17        Q.   And the oblong between the two?

18        A.   Yes.  That's the area of the corridor.

19        Q.   Now, in your view, and looking at what you've mapped out on this

20     map, does the achievement or would the achievement of strategic objective

21     number 2 transect any ethnic group?

22        A.   The achievement of the strategic goal would transect a large

23     population of Croats and Muslims in the Posavina Corridor.

24        Q.   Now, again, using this map as an illustration, could you roughly

25     indicate the territorial parameters of strategic objective 3?

Page 1713

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  And I wonder if there's a way, Mr. Registrar, that

 2     Dr. Donia could do that in another colour than the red colour that he's

 3     marked with.

 4        Q.   I think you can go ahead, Dr. Donia.

 5        A.   Recognising that the goal itself was imprecise and my

 6     representation will be even less precise, we're talking approximately

 7     about this area there.

 8        Q.   Now, the area that you've marked in blue representing, very

 9     approximately as you've indicated, the territory covered by strategic

10     objective number 3, in your view and using this map as an illustration,

11     would the achievement of strategic objective number 3 transect any ethnic

12     group?

13        A.   Yes.  As I've indicated, there are very few Croats living in --

14     were very few Croats living in this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the

15     eastern boundary, but it transects an area which is very mixed

16     population -- has a very mixed population of Bosnian Muslims and Serbs.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, if you can work towards rounding

18     up your ten minutes.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  I can round it very quickly, Your Honour, if I

20     could request that this be marked as the next Prosecution exhibit,

21     please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're ending there with your strategic

23     objectives --

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- for the day.

Page 1714

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             The map as marked is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 4     given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P338, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Noting the time, Your Honour, perhaps it would be

 8     an appropriate time to break.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             Dr. Donia, we are still not done with you.  I'm sure I'm carrying

11     coal to Newcastle when I say to you, while you're in the witness stand,

12     you may not discuss this case with anybody else - not with your counsel,

13     not with anybody - until you are excused.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Then we stand adjourned

16     until tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning, same courtroom, Courtroom I.

17             Court adjourned.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of

20                           November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.