Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1969

 1                           Tuesday, 25 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Could we have appearances

12     for today, starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. HARMON:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, counsel.

14     My name is Mark Harmon.  Appearing today for the Prosecution is Ann

15     Sutherland, and Carmela Javier is assisting.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

18     morning to everybody in the process.  Defence of General Perisic will be

19     represented today by our assistants Mr. Androvic, case manager Tasic, and

20     Novak Lukic as Defence counsel.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  Good morning, Mr.

22     Tesic.  Mr. Tesic, just again to repeat the usual warning that you are

23     still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your

24     testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the

25     truth.

Page 1970

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Madam Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5                           WITNESS:  BORIVOJE TESIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]

 8        Q.   Mr. Tesic, towards the end of yesterday's session we were looking

 9     at a document relating to the pullout of the troops from

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  If we could have Rule 65 ter number -- sorry,

11     Exhibit P368 on the screen, please.  At LiveNote transcript page 66, you

12     were shown a copy of a document contained within that exhibit, and that's

13     Bosnia -- B/C/S, page 2; in English, page 3.  And you were asked who the

14     document was from, and you said that it could be from the commander of

15     the Special Units Corps but that you couldn't see that on the document.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, we took the original from the

17     vault last night and had it rescanned into the computer.

18             I have a hard copy here.  If it could be given to the witness and

19     Mr. Lukic -- shown to Mr. Lukic before it's given to the witness.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland, I'm advised that this be exhibit

21     was under seal.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We should be in closed session, maybe, when you

24     use it.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1971

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 2 [Closed session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber I]

 3  THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in closed session.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just see that on e-court there is

 6     another document other than the one shown to Mr. Tesic, so it could have

 7     been mistakenly retrieved or could be mistakenly marked.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a correct one now, Mr. Lukic?  Thank you

 9     very much.  How do you see that when it is so illegible?  You don't have

10     to answer that.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, the English translation that's on

12     the screen is the unrevised translation.  We are in the process of having

13     it revised, but the witness has the document in front of him, and he can

14     read the specific paragraph that I want to take him to, so that's --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that -- going to the witness, ma'am,

16     if it is an unrevised version, I guess we agreed that in such a situation

17     then we mark for identification.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  It was our understanding that

19     if the Defence objected to an unrevised translation, then --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were they aware that it was unrevised?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They were?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you aware, Mr. Lukic?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, it has the --

Page 1972

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me ask Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would have to be aware of that,

 3     but if you allow me, during the break we are going to check whether

 4     anything contingent is contained in this translation, and then later on

 5     we will let you know whether we stipulate that it be admitted into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is already admitted, Mr. Lukic.  You didn't

 8     object.  I want to know whether at the time when it was admitted, were

 9     you aware that it is a draft version?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I cannot state so clearly.  What I

11     see in front of me does not bear the marking "unrevised" or "draft

12     translation."

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Anyway, it's admitted.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I presume that there's nothing

15     contentious there.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can I just add that earlier in --

17     during an earlier witness's evidence, I told the Court and the Defence

18     that if the ERN starts with the number starts with the letters "ET," then

19     that is a DVU translation, can we say, and --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is a DVU, ma'am?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's the document video unit or whatever within

22     the OTP, and actually, in the footer of this document it does have

23     OTP-DVU.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which means?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Which means that it's not the CLSS translation.

Page 1973

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, DVU we are hearing for the first time today,

 2     so we will learn as we go ahead.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Mr. Tesic, looking at that document now, can you tell who the

 7     document is from?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Perhaps if we could go down to the bottom of the document.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess there's nothing for us to see on the

11     screen?  The document that is being seen is the one which is in the hands

12     of the witness.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  Because the document

14     has been admitted, our case manager is unable to upload exhibits, and so

15     I have to refer to it by doc ID 0633-1148.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is there anything specific we are waiting for?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The document to come up on e-court.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So this is the rescanned -- this is the one

20     that's been taken --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  This is the copy.  The B/C/S copy is the one

23     that's been copied from the original from the vault last evening.

24        Q.   Mr. Tesic, are you able to see now who the document from?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1974

 1        Q.   And who is that?

 2        A.   Document of the command of Special Units Corps of the Army of

 3     Yugoslavia.

 4        Q.   You also said yesterday that the person who approved the pullout

 5     of the troops was contained in paragraph 1 of that document.  As we don't

 6     have an English -- revised English translation, are you able to read

 7     paragraph 1 into the record?

 8        A.   Yes.  "Because of the apparent need and following approval of the

 9     General staff of the Yugoslavia army, prepare the unit to pull out from

10     the area of Vogosca."

11        Q.   Mr. Tesic, can you see before the words -- before the acronym

12     GYVJ, do you see a letter "N"?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And what does that stand for?

15        A.   Chief.

16        Q.   And so if that sentence is read again, could you read the

17     beginning of that sentence again up until the end of the words "VJ"?

18        A.   "The chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia..."

19        Q.   Thank you.  I want to turn now – I’ve finished with that document.

20     I want to turn now to discuss the issue of logbooks.  Was it protocol for

21     all units to keep correspondence logbooks?

22        A.   War diary had to be kept by units at the rank of battalion and

23     above.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess, Madam Sutherland, that there is no

25     further need for us to be in closed session.

Page 1975

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I was just about to request that we go back into

 2     open session.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Madam Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Tesic, my question was in relation to logbooks,

 9     correspondence logbooks in particular.  Was it protocol for all units to

10     keep a correspondence logbook?

11        A.   Record books are maintained at the level of brigades and higher

12     commands and institutions.

13        Q.   Within the correspondence logbooks, do they include oral orders?

14        A.   No.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have Rule 65 ter number 08780 on the

16     screen, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is it?  087?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  80.  08780.  Your Honours, we have the --

19        Q.   First of all, Mr. Tesic, can you see what this document is?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What is it?

22        A.   This is a register of the Special Units Corps of the army of

23     Yugoslavia started in 1993.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we only have certain extracts of

25     the logbook translated, and I will take the witness to two in particular.

Page 1976

 1     This is an extract of a document that we received, which only has

 2     extracts from the 21st of December, 1993, until the 31st of December,

 3     1993.  If we could now go to --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are these documents the same document?  I mean, it

 5     doesn't look like the left looks like the right side.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  That's because the front page

 7     hasn't been translated.  If we could go to entry number 4566, which is in

 8     the B/C/S, page 4, and the English, page 2, and it may actually be easier

 9     for the witness to read, I have a hard copy of the B/C/S.  If this could

10     be handed to the witness and shown to the Defence beforehand.

11        Q.   Mr. Tesic, the copy that I've given you runs chronologically.

12     Unfortunately, the copy that's in e-court has been scanned in not

13     chronologically.  So the page for you would be 7, page 7 of that document

14     you have in front of you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So for us to be able to follow the

17     B/C/S version, could my learned friend please tell us which item number,

18     and could you enlarge the B/C/S, that part where the witness is going to

19     testify about for the benefit of Mr. Perisic because he can't see

20     properly.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  4566, Mr. Lukic.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And it's on page 4 of the B/C/S.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And we would also appreciate an enlargement of the

24     English version.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

Page 1977

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of course.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   Mr. Tesic, if we can go from left to right --

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, madam.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Mr. Tesic, if we can take the document, and looking at the

 8     columns from left to right, can you explain to the Court what column 3

 9     means?

10        A.   Yes.  Column number 3 refers to the level of confidentiality of a

11     document.  It is indicated here "DT," which stands for "state secret,"

12     "drzavna tajna," "state secret."

13        Q.   Now, the date of the document?

14        A.   The date of the document is the 30th of December, 1993, since

15     this logbook is from 1993.

16        Q.   What does -- and then the next column is -- what does that relate

17     to, column number 5?

18        A.   Column number 5 indicates the command or institution or the first

19     and last name of the person.  It is Military Post 1410 Nis.

20        Q.   I'm sorry.  If we can go to column number 5 --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, the name of the last person, it is

22     something, something, Nis.  I don't understand what that -- I didn't

23     understand the interpretation.

24             THE WITNESS:  This was Military Postbox 1410 Nis.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right, but I guess we've got to know whether the

Page 1978

 1     name of this person is the sender or the recipient.  I think top of the

 2     heading there says "sender."  Is this the name of the person who is

 3     sending the document, or is it the name of the person who is going to

 4     receive the document?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  If I may, the witness

 6     is actually looking at the first entry on that page, which is entry

 7     number 4564.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, aren't we looking at entry number 4566?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's what I was just about to take the witness

10     to.

11        Q.   Witness, can you go back across -- looking at entry number 4566.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   It has in column 3 the words "DT," which you've explained means

14     state secret.  It then has in column 4 --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The date, which is explained.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   The date, which is in -- which is following the date up on -- of

18     the first entry.  Is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And then in the third column for entry number 4566, does it have

21     the same quotation marks that it's following the entry of the entry

22     above?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And so if we look at entry 4565, the one directly above the one

25     that I'm interested in, we see the words "SP."  What does that relate to

Page 1979

 1     in relation to column 5?

 2        A.   I presume that's an acronym for "own needs."

 3        Q.   So if we go back to column 4, that's the date of registration,

 4     not the date of the document; is that correct?  The date that it's put

 5     into the register?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So then if we go to column number 6, in fact, that's the date of

 8     the document, is it not?  But in this case, there is no date there; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   However, we can see from entry at the top of the page, which is

12     entry number 4564, that the date is the -- is it correct, the 29th of

13     December, 29.12?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  We are coming back to the questions from yesterday.

16     It would be fair for the witness to be asked question, on the basis of

17     what he can see, when does he think the document was drafted?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I take my learned colleague's point.

19        Q.   Mr. Tesic, looking at this document, looking at this page, can

20     you tell me the date that you -- the date of the document 4566 came into

21     being?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was he the author of that document?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How he is going to know when the date is not

25     mentioned in the document?  Are you inviting speculation?

Page 1980

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, point taken.  Point taken, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   So looking at entry number 4566, if we go to column number 7,

 3     what does it say there?

 4        A.   It explains a brief content of the document and in this case,

 5     assistance to army of RS, Republika Srpska, in execution of their

 6     operations.  It addressed to the Guards Motorised Brigade, so being the

 7     organisational unit indicated.

 8        Q.   And then finally, the columns number 9 and 10, what does -- what

 9     do they relate to?

10        A.   Under 9, date refers most probably to the date of delivery or

11     receipt; and column 10, that it is to be registered in the plan of use on

12     a specified date, in this case 30th of 10, 1998, I presume.  This is

13     neither my signature nor my initials, so I don't know.

14        Q.   Now, I think yesterday you testified that you received an oral

15     order two days before you went on the march; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you said that you wouldn't have gone on the march without a

18     written order; is that correct?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Objection, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If -- could you please give us a

22     reference of the witness's words?  I'm not sure whether he has been

23     quoted correctly.  Let us take a look at what he really said.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  One moment.  Page 6 of yesterday's LiveNote

25     transcript.  The witness answered:  "I suppose --

Page 1981

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  At what line, ma'am?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, line 6 to 9.  On page 5, line 18, I asked

 3     at line 17:  "How did you receive that order?  Was it written or oral?"

 4     And the witness answered on 18:  "Oral."

 5             And then over the page on page 6, when asking about the units

 6     engaged, I said:  "Can you be more specific in relation to the units?"

 7     And the witness answered:  "I suppose there is a written document

 8     governing the move of the units towards Vogosca.  I don't have that

 9     document here with me, and I haven't seen it, but it's certain that

10     regardless of the oral order, we would not have gone there without a

11     written order."

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that's what was said or

14     read here is different from the mode in which the question was asked on

15     line 12, row 3.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Page 12, line 3.  Interpreter's correction.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My interpretation of yesterday's transcript as you

18     read it, Madam Sutherland, is that the witness never saw a written order

19     on the day he marched, but he marched on the basis of an oral order

20     assuming that a written order exists somewhere.  Now, the fact of the

21     matter is, he didn't see it before he marched, or he marched on the basis

22     of an oral order.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Mr. Tesic, in relation to entry number 4566, is this -- this is a

25     document that's going to the Guards Brigade in relation to the assistance

Page 1982

 1     to the Army of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you turn to entry number 4582, which is on page 9

 4     for you, and in e-court it is on page 1, and the B/C/S, page 2.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland, the Registry has a technical

 6     difficulty with the B/C/S side of it.  Are you prepared and is the

 7     Defence agreeable to proceed with the English version only?

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have another copy here I can provide to the

 9     Defence.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you could, please.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Usher.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There it comes now.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   Mr. Tesic, in relation to entry number 4582, again, what is this

15     entry?

16        A.   It's a strictly confidential document addressed to the Guards

17     Brigade.  The date and number are clear.  It's the 31st of December, and

18     this is a document regulating the sortee of units into the field

19     addressed to the chief of staff and operation centre.  Also, the document

20     is kept -- the next words are illegible.  This is not my signature, but

21     there is a reference to Vrana in the plan of use and number such and

22     such, state secret.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you very much.  Your Honour, I would --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just get clarity.  Am I right to be reading

25     the distribution date to be the 11th of February, 1996?  Yes, Mr. Tesic,

Page 1983

 1     would you like to comment?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have no comment, and the date

 3     is correct as you put it.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  11th of February, 1996?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what it says.  I have

 6     no comment.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Mr. Tesic, in relation to these logbooks, you are familiar with

 9     the registers, are you not?

10        A.   To the extent that my previous job enabled me to learn about it,

11     I am partially familiar with it.  This is a document of the kind kept by

12     the general affairs unit in the staff of the command, and an NCO is

13     constantly working on this document.

14        Q.   So --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is an NCO?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Non --

17        Q.   Witness, Mr. Tesic, can you tell the Chamber what an NCO is?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It's non-commissioned

19     officer.  In Serbian, "podificir."

20             The witness does not understand the English acronym, so he is

21     confused.  He says:

22        A.   I can't find this abbreviation or acronym here.  I don't know

23     what you are referring to.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, President

Page 1984

 1     Moloto, you asked about the English acronym.  He said that an NCO is

 2     working on this document, which is the English translation for the

 3     Serbian word, literally meaning "under officer."  In Serbian, he said

 4     that an under officer is working normally on such a document.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Could we have the English

 6     version enlarged, please.  I would like to be able to read what's written

 7     on column 10.  Are we able to -- can we be told what is written on column

 8     10?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I thought the witness had

10     read out into the record, maybe on page 14 in the transcript by now.

11        Q.   But, Mr. Tesic, can you read column 10 again for the Trial

12     Chamber?

13        A.   It's not very legible, but I'll do my best.  It says:  "... kept

14     within the study 'Vrana' in the plan of use under number DT" -- meaning

15     state secret -- "150-1 as of 30th October, 199" -- I think the last digit

16     is 8.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Now, the Presiding Judge had a question about the date of the

20     document being 11th of February, 1996.  Is that --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The date of the distribution of the document.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour.

23        Q.   The date of the distribution in column 9.  Is that -- what does

24     that date relate to?

25        A.   This is the date of distribution of the document, meaning that if

Page 1985

 1     somebody was issued with this document, this document was discharged, and

 2     we see who actually took it in column 10.

 3        Q.   And so if that were right, that would mean that these documents,

 4     as we can see on this page, are being distributed two or three years

 5     after the event; is that correct or possible?

 6        A.   Yes.  I suppose it's possible as long as it's written here with

 7     these dates.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

 9     The log itself --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- is 9 pages in total, and we would seek to

12     have the entire excerpts in even though I have only taken the witness at

13     this point to two of the entries.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what would be the purpose of the remaining

15     seven pages?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Because we would be intending to show it to

17     witnesses in the future, Your Honour, or we can simply mark for

18     identification -- admit the two entries that we looked at this morning

19     and then leave the others for when the further witnesses come.  It's a

20     9-page document, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you were rising onto your feet.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I think we should proceed as we

23     did before.  If two pages were shown to the witness, then two pages

24     should be admitted now, and then if through some other witness more pages

25     are introduced, then more pages should be introduced through another

Page 1986

 1     witness like we did with the transcripts from assembly sessions.  I don't

 2     see why the whole document should be admitted if only two pages were

 3     shown to the witness.  I think that is actually in keeping with your own

 4     rules.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we agree.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Then the two pages -- it's

 7     page 1 and 2 in the English; I don't know what they are in the B/C/S, but

 8     the equivalent are admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an

 9     exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Those pages will be Exhibit P369, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:

13        Q.   Mr. Tesic, what do you -- I now wish to turn to another topic.

14             What do you understand the term "active defence" to mean?

15        A.   In keeping with the orders received, active defence means keeping

16     the position you are on ahead of the forward line and, as required,

17     destroying targets that may emerge and responding to fire.

18        Q.   Mr. Tesic, when you were in Bosnia at the end of December 1993

19     and January 1994, did you have snipers in your unit?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did your unit provide training to VRS snipers?

22        A.   Probably.  I'm trying to remember.  I think we assisted in the

23     training and operation of the sniper rifles.

24        Q.   How many units were involved?  How many VRS units were involved?

25        A.   We are talking about individuals from a brigade.  We didn't train

Page 1987

 1     units, but individuals.

 2        Q.   How many people?

 3        A.   I couldn't say because that was not my job.  It was not my

 4     responsibility, that training.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may we go into closed session.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 7 [Closed session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber I]

 8  THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in closed session.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Madam Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have Exhibit number P353 on the

11     screen, please, and if we could go to B/C/S, page 11, and the English,

12     page 12.

13        Q.   Mr. Tesic, is this an entry that was written by you?  It's --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   If we can in fact just go to the previous page of the English,

16     which will have date, and also the previous page of the B/C/S.  I'm

17     sorry.  So we can see this is an entry for the 15th of January, 1994, and

18     then going over to the following page, at the bottom of that entry for

19     that date, we can see "Tasks."

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May we go to the following page, please, of both

21     documents.

22        Q.   Mr. Tesic, what is the acronym -- under "Tasks," you see the

23     acronym "VV-PPN" right at the bottom.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   What does that acronym stand for?

Page 1988

 1        A.   Military police platoon for special purposes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you direct us to the English part of it,

 3     ma'am?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's on the bottom of the screen, Your Honour,

 5     to that entry.  There.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Under "Tasks," and there's the acronym VV-PPN.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   Mr. Tesic, it says in the English translation:  "Three officers

11     of the military police special purposes" - what you've just said - "shall

12     enter formation of Rajlovac brigade between 5 and 17 January, and two

13     officers shall enter the formation of the Ilidza brigade between the 15th

14     of January and the 17th of January to train the snipers of that brigade."

15             Are you aware of how many -- how many people the two officers

16     trained?

17        A.   I don't have that information.

18        Q.   Did you receive any reports back about the training?

19        A.   No.  That was something that the commander of the brigades

20     involved, the Rajlovac and the other brigade would receive.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you aware of the size of those brigades?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   And both the -- who did the Rajlovac and the Ilidza brigades

25     belong to?

Page 1989

 1        A.   The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the VRS, the Army of Republika

 2     Srpska.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to entry number 20, which is in

 4     the B/C/S on page 9 and the English, page 10.

 5        Q.   Mr. Tesic, this is an entry from the 11th of January, 1994.  And

 6     I think this is an entry -- you didn't make this entry, did you?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And it speaks there about:  "... offensive operations shall be

 9     continued along all directions."  Which direction -- can you describe for

10     the Court the directions that are referred to that you're aware of where

11     offensive operations were being conducted?

12        A.   It says here, the main axis of attack shall be Rajlovac, Sokolje,

13     Svabino hill.

14        Q.   And then we see another reference to engaging staff sergeant

15     Dukic in the training of snipers for the needs of the Ilidza Brigade?

16        A.   Yes, that's written there.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  Just one moment, Your Honour.

18             I have no further questions for the witness.  Thank you, Mr.

19     Tesic.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Bear with me for a moment, Your

22     Honour.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And Your Honour, we're still in closed session.

24     I don't know whether Mr. Lukic wishes to be.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I don't think so.  May we please move into

Page 1990

 1     open session.

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And before we begin, may I ask if I could have

 6     that document, the logbook document back, please.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tesic.  My name is Novak

 9     Lukic.  On behalf of the Defence team for Mr. Perisic, I will be asking

10     you a few questions.

11             Before we start, I'd like to ask you, since we are speaking the

12     same language, to wait a second or two before you start answering so that

13     the interpreters could keep up and the transcript would reflect

14     everything correctly.

15             My first question has to do with your prior statements.  Is it

16     true that to date you have given only one statement to the Prosecution;

17     your only interview with the Prosecution was in 2003?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes, and representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor

19     attended.

20        Q.   From 2003 onwards and before you came to The Hague, did you

21     receive calls from the OTP, and did you give them any new statements?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Were you asked in the past five years to give any new statements

24     by the Office of the Prosecutor?

25        A.   No.

Page 1991

 1        Q.   As you told us at the beginning of your evidence, until a few

 2     months ago, you occupied a very high position in the Ministry of the

 3     Interior, you were commander of the Gendarmes, and you were retired this

 4     last summer?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In fact, you were man number 3 in the Serbian police all these

 7     years?

 8        A.   There is no such rating, but that would be approximately true.

 9        Q.   Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about the Guards

10     Brigade.  On the first day of your testimony - that was last Thursday -

11     the page of the transcript is 1888, line 22, in response to a question

12     from the Prosecution, you said that before the enactment of the law on

13     the VJ, the Guards Brigade was subordinated to the Ministry of Defence.

14     That's what you said, and I would like us to be a bit more precise.  Did

15     you mean the Federal Secretariat for National Defence?

16        A.   Yes.  In 1991, 1992, it was called the Federal Secretariat for

17     National Defence, the Office of the Federal Secretary, General Kadijevic.

18        Q.   That's right.  And the Guards Brigade until the enactment of the

19     Law on the Army and the Establishment of the Ministry of Defence and the

20     General Staff was subordinated to the Federal Secretariat of National

21     Defence and only then after the enactment of that law became subordinate

22     to the General Staff?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   In your statement to the Prosecution, paragraph 7 --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, yes, Madam Sutherland.

Page 1992

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry for interrupting, but can there be

 2     more of a pause between the questions and answers because it's very

 3     confusing.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree.  I do have that problem.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just so that we are clear, and I see some years

 6     here, 1991 and 1992, can we be told when this Law on the Army and

 7     Establishment of the Ministry of Defence was enacted so that we know

 8     exactly what time we're talking about.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you remember the year, Mr. Tesic, when the Law on the Army was

11     enacted, when it came into force?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   Let us put on the screen your statement.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's 1D00-1776, B/C/S, page 3, and

15     English, page 3.

16        Q.   In that statement to the OTP, you said sometime in 1997 the

17     Guards Brigade became directly subordinated -- that's paragraph 7.  We

18     need to zoom in on the B/C/S a bit.  It says:  "In 1997, when Milosevic

19     became the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the Guards

20     Brigade became directly subordinated to the president of the FRY."  Do

21     you remember stating that to the Prosecution?

22        A.   Let me read it please.  Where is it?

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on paragraph 7 in

24     B/C/S for the witness.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Right.

Page 1993

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   My information is that it was in the beginning of 1998, but that

 3     is not so important to me.  My question is, do you remember that just

 4     after the Guards Brigade became directly subordinated to the president of

 5     the FRY, General Perisic was soon replaced from his position as Chief of

 6     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia?  It was a very publicized

 7     affair.

 8        A.   I'm not quite sure, but I think I remember.

 9        Q.   To be quite precise, in my previous question when I said that

10     after the enactment of the Law on the Army, the Guards Brigade became

11     subordinated to the General Staff; it was in fact part of the newly

12     established Special Units Corps and through the Special Units Corps was

13     subordinated to the General Staff; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Would I be right in saying that the main function of the Guards

16     Brigade was in fact to provide security to the highest political and

17     military leaders in peacetime and in wartime provide security to the

18     highest command, to the Supreme Command?

19        A.   I stated earlier that -- its three main tasks in peacetime:  One,

20     training; two, securing combat readiness; and three, protocol duties,

21     that means security for installations, residencies, et cetera.  And in

22     wartime, the Guards Brigade was to secure the Supreme Command.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt, Mr. Lukic.  At line 12 of page 24

24     up to line 16, you refer in a question to the fact that the Guards

25     Brigade was part of the newly established Special Units Corps, and you've

Page 1994

 1     been talking here so far, at the previous question, you were referring to

 2     the year 1998.  Can we establish what we mean by newly established?  When

 3     was it established because I think the Special Units Corps we heard about

 4     being mentioned.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for His Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   To dispel any doubts, Mr. Tesic, do you know when approximately

 9     the Special Units Corps was established?

10        A.   I think sometime in 1993, mid-1993.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I presume that this is clear now?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   When we talk about the basic function of the Guards Brigade,

15     would you agree with me that primarily its function was not to engage in

16     combat activities.  It's primary function is providing security; isn't

17     that correct?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   And in fact, first contact with what Guards Brigade was not meant

20     to do was the engagement in the Vukovar operation in 1991 when it took

21     active part in combat operations?

22        A.   I fully agree with your statement.

23        Q.   Contrary to what we have been hearing in your testimony in the

24     past couple of days, there is a huge difference in the participation of

25     the Guards Brigade in the Vukovar events in 1991 and the participation of

Page 1995

 1     parts of the guards unit in 1993 and 1994 in the Sarajevo theatre of war

 2     because back then in 1991 in Vukovar, the whole Guards Brigade went to

 3     the frontline except for some staff units, smaller staff units.  Isn't

 4     that correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Do you know how many, approximately, men did the Guards Brigade

 7     have in 1991 and then in 199 -- and was there any difference in the

 8     number of troops and officers in 1993 in December from that previous

 9     figure?

10        A.   I don't have specific data, but I believe there were more than

11     3.000 members in Vukovar in 1991, and in 1993 there were -- approximately

12     together with command and all the units, there were 1.600, not more than

13     that.

14        Q.   When you were part of the Special Units Corps?

15        A.   That's correct, yes.

16        Q.   Would you agree with me, and that is the thesis of the -- this

17     Tribunal in another case, that the Guards Brigade were the creme de la

18     creme, the most elite unit of the JNA?

19        A.   I agree with you given the criteria for the selection of both

20     officers, non-commissioned officers, and troops.

21        Q.   Specificity of the Guards Brigade was also that it was the only

22     brigade to have two battalions of military police within its ranks.  In

23     its infantry -- in a typical infantry brigade, military police would be a

24     company strength unit; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  The Guards Brigade had two military police battalion but

Page 1996

 1     only for a period of time.

 2        Q.   In 1993 in December, do you remember the composition of military

 3     police within the brigade?

 4        A.   In 1993, there was a battalion of military police within the

 5     ranks of the Guards Brigade, and it had one company in APCs, armoured

 6     personnel vehicles, and two police companies.

 7        Q.   And that was another thing that they were specific about, and

 8     that is anti-sabotage or anti-terrorist unit.  First, it was a platoon

 9     for special purposes, but it was a specialised unit within the ranks of

10     the whole of JNA, wasn't it?

11        A.   There was a military police for special purposes platoon.  It is

12     30 strong.  For awhile, it was autonomous, and for awhile it was part of

13     the military police battalion of the Guards Brigade.

14        Q.   Could you tell us, please, as per establishment, what is the

15     number of men in an infantry brigade, or generally?  Is there any

16     difference between the infantry and motorised brigade, so the number and

17     the composition of a brigade?  Could you expand on that, please.

18        A.   Motorised brigades out of all the brigades in the VJ was the most

19     numerous.  In peacetime, it would number some 2 to 3.000 troops, and in

20     wartime between 3 and a half and 4.000.

21        Q.   And what about infantry brigades?

22        A.   Slightly less but approximately the same.

23        Q.   You must know that the VRS adapted its structure or copied its

24     structure from JNA regulations governing the composition of -- and

25     structure of its military units, those regulations dating before 1991?

Page 1997

 1        A.   I presume, but I never analysed this matter.

 2        Q.   Let's start discussing the events from 1993 and the structure of

 3     the Guards Brigade in 1993 and 1994.

 4             Yesterday in your testimony, you mentioned something which I'd

 5     like you to explain to the Bench.  At that time, there were two

 6     categories of soldiers at that time, regular soldier and contract

 7     soldiers.  First of all, please provide an explanation about the contract

 8     soldiers.

 9        A.   Contract soldiers are persons who had done their military service

10     and who signed a certain contract for a certain period of time on

11     employment with a certain military postbox.

12        Q.   So in a way, professional soldiers because they received salaries

13     -- well, regular soldiers used to receive some remuneration, but the

14     salary of those contract soldiers was closer to regular monthly salary

15     outside the military, wasn't it?

16        A.   Contract soldiers are permanently employed in -- for the period

17     stated in the contract, and they receive salaries and all the benefits as

18     if they were fully employed.

19        Q.   As fully employed as elsewhere?

20        A.   This is exactly what I said.

21        Q.   In that period towards the end of 1993, you were Chief of --

22     could you tell us the exact function that you occupied, the post?

23        A.   In 1993, I was -- in 1993, I was operations officer in the

24     operations organ of the staff of the Guards Brigade.

25        Q.   I have information that in the group that departed on the 30th of

Page 1998

 1     December or towards the end of December - but I believe it was the 30th -

 2     for the Sarajevo theatre of war that exclusively officers,

 3     non-commissioned officers and contract soldiers numbered in that group,

 4     so could you confirm that being the operations officer in the operations

 5     organ of that brigade?  Could you concur with me?

 6        A.   Yes, your information is correct.

 7        Q.   So on that occasion, no regular soldiers were part of that group,

 8     regular soldiers being those who finished their national service and

 9     training but had not entered into a contract with the military, so they

10     had not entered the military.

11        A.   I do not have such information.

12        Q.   I'm going to ask you a couple of questions concerning the first

13     group, and when I say the first group, I mean those who departed in

14     mid-December; most of them came from the 72nd Special Brigade.  Do you

15     know, on the basis of what I have access to, Colonel Stupar was heading

16     that group, and at that time he was a commander of the 72nd Special

17     Brigade?  Do you remember?  Do you know that?

18        A.   Yes.  I heard that in mid-December they departed and the

19     commander was with them, the commander of the 72nd Brigade, then

20     Lieutenant-Colonel, then later Colonel Stupar.

21        Q.   You also testified that in the first group there were some

22     officers and I presume soldiers who had contracts from the Guards

23     Motorised Brigade.  Do you know anything about how this first group was

24     structured?  What was the basis for the selection of the personnel?  Do

25     you know anything about how it was organised, the first group?

Page 1999

 1        A.   I do not have such information.  It is up to commander of the

 2     battalion, 2nd Motorised Battalion, Major Borovcanin who was engaged in

 3     that task.

 4        Q.   You found him there in Vogosca when you came to that place?

 5        A.   Yes.  He came to Park Hotel in Vogosca.

 6        Q.   And last question before the break.  Do you know that Mr.

 7     Borovcanin was born in the area of Romanija, which is very close to

 8     Vogosca in Bosnia Herzegovina?

 9        A.   Yes.  Lieutenant-Colonel Borovcanin was born in the surrounds of

10     Sokolac in the area of Romanija, Republika Srpska in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now we can take a break

12     if you so please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll take a break and come

14     back at quarter to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] I asked you before the break about Mr.

20     Borovcanin, and you provided an answer.  I think you said earlier, not

21     during your testimony but during your proofing that also saw Major

22     Kosoric [Realtime transcript read in error, "Kosevic"] from the tank

23     unit.  My question is, is it known to you where he hales from?

24        A.   Major Kosoric, I think he was born in Han Pijesak or the

25     surrounds of Han Pijesak, Republika Srpska.

Page 2000

 1        Q.   This did not enter the record.  I asked you about Major Kosoric,

 2     didn't I?

 3        A.   Yes, Major Kosoric.  It says Major Kosevic here.

 4        Q.   Those mistakes will be rectified later on.  He was also a member

 5     of the Special Units Corps.  I presume he was in the armoured brigade.

 6     He wasn't part of the Guards Brigade, or was he?

 7        A.   Major Kosoric worked in the armoured brigade, and later on he was

 8     in the command of the Special Units Corps.

 9        Q.   Let's briefly address another topic.  May I ask the testimony --

10     statement given to the OTP, 1D00-1776, Serbian, page 16, English, page

11     18, paragraph 77.  The Prosecutor during the interview in 2003 asked you

12     about officers and at paragraph -- explains that.  He asked you about

13     officers who went to the VRS from within the VJ unit.  Pertaining to the

14     personnel centre, I'm going to read out parts of your statement and ask

15     you whether you still stand by it today.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If you could zoom in on paragraph 77

17     in the B/C/S, please.  Your Honours, this is not a topic which follows

18     from examination-in-chief, but as per your guidelines I do believe it is

19     relevant for this case.

20        Q.   "In November 1992, the service of VJ members in the VRS was not

21     regulated, for instance, compensation.  Later, I do not remember exactly

22     when, the 30th Personnel Centre was established, the personnel centre,

23     acronym KC.  I heard from other officers that talks were conducted with

24     them in the 30th KC about their readiness to serve in the VRS.  I was

25     also told that the 30th KC also took part in sending people over the

Page 2001

 1     border and that they were told that it would all be legal.  They were

 2     mainly officers born in BiH or whose families lived in those parts.  I

 3     can speak only about those I know.  These officers also told me that

 4     there were no pressures exerted on them to go and serve in the VRS."

 5             My brief question, Mr. Tesic, concerning this is as follows:  In

 6     what you said in this paragraph to the OTP, you said that based on what

 7     you heard from the officers who through the services of the 30th KC

 8     became officers of the VRS; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.

10        Q.   And those you spoke to told you that there was no pressure

11     exerted on them to go to serve in the VRS; isn't that correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.  So you stand by what you said in your statement

14     without any additions or alterations; isn't that correct?

15        A.   I stand by it.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may, just for clarity.  I see the statement

17     says that these officers were mainly born in the BiH.  Were there any who

18     were not born in the BiH?  I'm asking you, Mr. Tesic.  Were there any

19     members of the personnel centre who were not born in the BiH who served

20     in the VRS?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have such information.  I

22     have no information of anybody working in the VRS haling from the

23     territory of Republic of Serbia or from any other location.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The only reason I'm asking the question is because

25     the statement says they were mainly officers born in the BiH, suggesting

Page 2002

 1     that the majority were born in the BiH but that some may have been born

 2     elsewhere.  That's the only reason I'm asking you.  Are you able to

 3     explain why you use the word "mainly"?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is because I'm not certain.  I

 5     did not have the information.  I could not access their personnel files

 6     or any lists so that I could be 100 percent sure that this is so.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But those you knew to belong to the 30th Personnel

 8     Centre according to your knowledge were born in the BiH?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll now move on to the topic that interests us

14     the most, namely, your departure and your stay in the Vogosca area.  What

15     was not quite clear to me from the transcript is what information you had

16     about this.  The eight members of the 72nd Special Brigade who were

17     killed, their bodies remained in the territory controlled by the BH Army,

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   They got killed in combat on the 27th of December, 1993, and

21     their bodies could not be recovered at the time?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   Yesterday, in the examination-in-chief, page 1929, line 2, you

24     said when the last body of a killed member of the 72nd Brigade was turned

25     over to your forces by the BH Army, which was either on the 25th or the

Page 2003

 1     28th of January, you returned immediately thereafter?

 2        A.   Our return started ...

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May I just interrupt.  Mr. Lukic, I'm sorry.  Do

 4     you have a LiveNote page for that?  I know you've given the transcript

 5     page, but unfortunately, the transcript wasn't available to us this

 6     morning.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 8             Lines 9 to 11 on page 51, I believe.

 9        Q.   Do you agree with me, Mr. Tesic -- you spoke yesterday about the

10     mission of your group when you went to that area.  Do you agree with me

11     that your primary task of the unit was to go there and secure the

12     location so you could recover the bodies of the dead members of the 72nd

13     Brigade?

14        A.   I agree that our task was to recover the bodies of the members of

15     the 72nd Brigade.

16        Q.   You had to occupy certain positions held previously by the 72nd

17     Brigade group that had withdrawn before your arrival, that is, to keep

18     the frontline?

19        A.   Yes, and this handover/takeover was completed on the 5th of

20     January, 1994.  The replacement, the rotation of units was the

21     responsibility of Lieutenant-Colonel Vukasinovic.

22        Q.   You answered a question from the Prosecution today as to the

23     definition of active defence.  Based on your recollection and all the

24     documents you had the occasion to see over the past few days, would you

25     agree that when your unit was there in that area, you did not participate

Page 2004

 1     much in active activities or action; you were mainly holding the line?

 2        A.   I said during proofing to the Prosecution that we did not move an

 3     inch forward during our entire stay there, and I stand by that.

 4        Q.   You told that to the Prosecution during your two-day proofing,

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 9069, page

 9     1 in B/C/S --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Mr. Lukic, what would you like

11     to do with ID 001776, the witness's statement?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm not tendering it.  I think this

13     is a public document, isn't it?  Could the Prosecution confirm?  The

14     document I called up a moment ago.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's protected.  Sorry, I was looking at your

16     list.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we then remove it from the screen

18     until we find out.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] According to my information, it's not

21     protected, so can we call up this document again.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm terribly sorry.  My records show that it is

23     protected for the time being.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please remove it from the screen quickly.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we then move into private

Page 2005

 1     session, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 3 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber I]

 4  THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This document you will see now on the screen, I suppose it's one

 8     of those shown to you by the Prosecution during proofing.  And before we

 9     get it, I'd like to ask you, do you remember that at that time in your

10     unit there was a problem getting salaries, and getting salaries was very

11     important at the time because of the runaway hyper-inflation, and you

12     needed your families to get the money?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll get the document on the screen

15     now.

16        Q.   This is a letter from the commander of the Special Units Corps,

17     Mr. Panic, from Vogosca sent to his chief of the financial services of

18     the 7th of January, 1994.  We have already heard evidence that on the

19     24th of January the dinar currency changed, and there was a galloping

20     hyper-inflation.  It was important to you, wasn't it, that you and your

21     families in Belgrade get that money as quickly as possible?

22        A.   It was certainly very important because our families could not

23     survive the next 24 hours if they had nothing to live on.  If you didn't

24     get your salary today, the next day for the same money you could only buy

25     a piece of bread for your entire salary.

Page 2006

 1        Q.   My learned friend asked you yesterday several questions about the

 2     rotation of personnel and you explained, if I understood correctly, that

 3     a smaller group would go to Belgrade to run some personal errands and

 4     then come back shortly.  Do you remember if this was one of the reasons

 5     why people had to go to Belgrade, that is to solve their financial

 6     problems and get the money to their families?

 7        A.   I couldn't answer this question.  I don't know why they went to

 8     Belgrade.

 9        Q.   You told the Prosecutor earlier today that you got the orders to

10     go on this assignment two days prior to your departure, which mean that

11     if you went on the 30th, you learned about it two days before?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   Can I conclude from these problems with your per diem and your

14     salaries that you did not reckon you would be staying in that area for a

15     long time?

16        A.   That's correct.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document,

18     please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

20     please be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D17, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   The answer of the witness is not recorded -- yes, it has been

25     recorded.  The question I asked on page 37, line 12, the witness answered

Page 2007

 1     yes.  I believe this document should be under seal.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will it please be kept under seal.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move to private session

 4     -- back to open session, sorry, for awhile.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Tesic, I'd like now to move to a different subject; that is

11     the relationship of subordination.  The principle of every army is the

12     principle of single command, that there is a subordinate superior

13     relationship and a chain of command, correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When I asked you about the involvement of the Guards Brigade in

16     the Vukovar operation, do you agree with me that the Guards Brigade,

17     which at the time was subordinated directly to the Federal Secretary for

18     National Defence, was resubordinated to the first army when they went to

19     Vukovar, and they received orders from the commander of the first army,

20     correct?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Sutherland.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would object to this line of

23     questioning.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why, ma'am?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The relevance to this indictment.  This is

Page 2008

 1     events in Vukovar in 1991.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking this question, Your

 4     Honour, because I want to show how the chain of command functions in

 5     combat operations.  It's the chain of command, and that's why I am

 6     comparing the Vukovar situation when the Guards Brigade followed one

 7     chain of command and the Romanija situation when they followed a

 8     different chain of command.  I'm showing how a unit operates in different

 9     combat operations.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question is allowed.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whether the Guards Brigade was

13     fully resubordinated to the first army, I don't know, but for the rest I

14     agree with you completely.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I mean the part of the Guards Brigade that was actively involved

17     in the operations group south, when they joined the operations group

18     south, they became subordinated to the first military district and

19     received orders from Commander Panic?

20        A.   I remember that a large number of documents came from the first

21     military district.

22        Q.   You did not see, did you, any documents concerning the

23     resubordination of your unit to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour.

Page 2009

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is that correct?

 4        A.   I don't recall seeing any such document.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now call up document P359.

 6     I believe it's a public document.  If we could zoom in, please.

 7        Q.   You discussed this document with the Prosecutor yesterday.  I

 8     don't know if this is good enough for you to see.  Maybe we could again

 9     zoom out so that you can see who sent this document to whom.  Look at the

10     bottom first and then the top part.

11        A.   This is an interim report that Major-General Stanislav Galic is

12     sending to the Main Staff of the VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   To be precise, because you talked about this yesterday, when you

14     say "Commander Stanislav Galic," he is commander of what?

15        A.   The commander, Major-General Stanislav Galic, was commander of

16     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the VRS.

17        Q.   As we can see, this is an interim report.  The first sentence

18     reads:  "On 27 December 1993, under the plan of Operation Pancir-2 an

19     attack has been planned by the Combat Group 1 under the command of

20     Colonel Stupar, Commander of the 72nd Special Brigade..." and so on.

21             When I read this document, can we see that the Combat Group 1

22     commanded by Colonel Stupar was part of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in

23     these combat operations?

24        A.   We can't see that.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private session,

Page 2010

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can the Chamber please move into private session.

 3 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber I]

 4  THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to call up document

 7     P353, which is the war diary of the Guards Brigade, page, in English, 5,

 8     and page, in English, 7 [as interpreted].

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it 5 or 7 in English?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the entry for the 5th of January

11     at 1800 hours.  If you could scroll the B/C/S version down a bit, please.

12        Q.   In this entry that you entered, this is your signature, isn't it,

13     Mr. Tesic?  It states:  "Pursuant to the order of the Commander of the

14     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, part of the Command -- exits and takes

15     possession of the forward command post at Donja Josanica village from the

16     6th of January to the 8th of January, 1994."  Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, this is my handwriting, and what you read out is exactly as

18     it reads, and the commander of the unit issued those orders; I just wrote

19     them down.

20        Q.   Yes, but you agree with me that the commander of the unit

21     received those orders from the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps;

22     isn't that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask something that needs clarification for

Page 2011

 1     me here.  I note that entry number 13, the one that we are reading, is

 2     entered on the 5th of January, 1994, at 1800 hours, and a subsequent one

 3     is entered an hour earlier.  Entry number 14.  Can that -- are you able

 4     to explain that, Mr. Tesic?

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If the next page in B/C/S could be

 6     shown to the witness, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is entered at 1700 hours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, 1700 hours.  That is an hour earlier than

 9     1800 hours.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  1700 hours is an hour earlier than 1800

12     hours, but the one that is entered earlier came after the one that is

13     entered later.  Are you able to explain that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since this goes for a corps

15     commander's order, most probably when the document was received, the

16     operations officer, Mr. Paunovic entered the elements from that order

17     into this logbook; it must have been received around 5.00, and then later

18     on elements were registered that I didn't enter.  Most probably, the

19     order from the commander came in the written form, and Paunovic referred

20     to it and specified that it reached the commander at 1700 hours when he

21     was entering it into this book.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I do not want to pretend to understand that

23     explanation.  I just don't understand what you are saying.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you'll allow me to expound on

25     it.

Page 2012

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that this document

 3     went through other books, maybe must have been in the general affairs

 4     office that it was entered into the logbook.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which document?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says corps commander's order,

 7     pursuant to the needs and the approval of the Chief of the General Staff

 8     of the Yugoslavia army, the 2nd Special Brigade shall leave.  It was done

 9     concurrently.  The warrant officer who maintains the logbook did his part

10     of the job, entered this there.  I registered and recorded activities

11     which took part at 6.00 p.m..  In the meantime, that order must have

12     reached Paunovic, and he recorded it as at the 1700 hours when was the

13     moment when this order came through the general affairs office and came

14     to the logbook, into the logbook.  This is a separate document apart from

15     the war diary.  We can look it up in the logbook.  I don't remember how

16     it is recorded there.  But also, it could be a clerical error in

17     recording the exact time.  It's also a possibility.  I shouldn't state

18     something I don't know.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, that last explanation is better.  The first

20     one I still don't understand.  What is the time that is mentioned in this

21     column?  Location, date, and time.  Time for what?  Isn't it time for

22     entering something in the logbook?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  When that order arrived, it

24     should state the time and date of the entry of the content.  I agree with

25     you.  But I wouldn't wish to speculate or provide any further comment on

Page 2013

 1     that.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.  You just don't provide any

 3     further comment.  Because I mean, if this is not the time of entry of

 4     this point, this entry here, then this date and time means nothing.  It

 5     can only explain what is taking place on this document.  We can't explain

 6     this through another document that is not here, can we?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we could keep this B/C/S page,

10     entry 15, and if you could scroll down the English, B/C/S version.  We

11     are still sticking to this issue on who the orders on combat activities

12     is received from.

13        Q.   This is entry dated 6th of January, 1994, and it says:  Pursuant

14     to the order of General Galic, Lieutenant-Colonel Stojimirovic will take

15     over the command of the OG north, or operations group north, et cetera,

16     et cetera.

17     Do you agree with me that undoubtedly this entry reflects that the order

18     concerning the structure of combat activities on the ground came from the

19     commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?  Isn't that correct?

20        A.   Yes, I do agree with you.

21        Q.   This order referred to here did not come from General Panic;

22     rather, it came from the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  Isn't

23     that correct?

24        A.   Probably.

25        Q.   Well, let's not speculate.  Maybe he was cognizant of that as

Page 2014

 1     well.  I agree.

 2             So on the basis of what I just showed you, do you agree with my

 3     thesis that in terms of your combat activities, your superior officers

 4     received their orders from the VRS command structure, in other words,

 5     from the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

 6        A.   On the basis of this, such a statement could be deducted.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us remain in private session

 9     dealing with this document.

10        Q.   The next page I would like to discuss is the blank entry under

11     the number 16.  But still, while we're still on this page, Mr. Paunovic

12     prepared those or entered those entries; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to the next page in the

15     B/C/S, please, and stick with the English page as it is.  Let me be more

16     precise.  B/C/S, page 7, and English, page 8.  I'm sorry.

17        Q.   Here we can see a blank entry under the number 16, and under 17

18     we see that Paunovic entered this entry in column 4; is that correct?

19        A.   That's correct.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't have it in the English, that entry 17.

21     You said they must keep this page.  Okay.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I would like the following --

23     next page in the English version to be shown, please.

24        Q.   So entry 17, under column 4, you recognise the signature as being

25     that of Mr. Paunovic; is that correct?

Page 2015

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]  Let's go to the next page in both

 3     B/C/S and English version.

 4        Q.   Here in entry 18, you recognise Mr. Paunovic's signature, don't

 5     you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next page in the B/C/S, and keep the

 8     present English page, please.

 9        Q.   In entries 19 and 20, column 4, you can recognise Mr. Paunovic's

10     signature, don't you?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next page in the B/C/S, please.

13        Q.   I believe entry 22, 21, 22, and 23, column 4 contains Paunovic's

14     signature again?

15        A.   That's correct.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then if we could scroll the B/C/S

17     version down, we come again to your signature.

18        Q.   So we can see here, dated 15th of January, 1994, after awhile we

19     see your signature again; isn't that correct?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   That would be entry, but -- we see the date but don't see the

22     number.  So from what I saw before entry number 16, the last time you had

23     entered entries into the war diary was the 5th of January, and then the

24     next time you did so was on the 15th of January; isn't that correct?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 2016

 1        Q.   In the meantime, your colleague Radoje Paunovic did the job.  My

 2     question to you is, did anybody tell you that something ought not to be

 3     entered into the war diary?  Can you remember that?

 4        A.   Nobody told me that something ought not be entered into the war

 5     diary.

 6        Q.   Did your colleague Paunovic tell you that somebody else had told

 7     him that something ought not be entered into the war diary?

 8        A.   He didn't tell me that somebody had told him not to enter

 9     something into the war diary.

10        Q.   When you -- after the 7- or 10-day break, next time around when

11     you did enter something into the war diary on the 15th January, 1994, you

12     had no reason to check the preceding pages and the preceding entries; is

13     that correct?

14        A.   That's correct.  I did not.

15        Q.   So you do not know -- you don't know that the entry 16, which is

16     blank, was not blank at that time as well?

17        A.   I can't answer you this question.

18        Q.   Thank you.  While we are still in private session, now I'm going

19     to ask you, since I presume you had occasion to go through this war diary

20     in a detailed manner, what I see from the war diary and other documents

21     is as follows:  It's very often that they make mention of planning of

22     combat operations, but I never see any entry explaining that a combat

23     action had been executed.  Isn't it true that you, as you said, did not

24     move a single metre forward while you were there at Vogosca out in the

25     field?

Page 2017

 1        A.   Yes, I do agree with you.  Actions were planned, but nothing was

 2     being carried out on the ground.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We may go back to open session, Your

 4     Honours, briefly, please.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In your examination-in-chief, you testified and you confirmed

11     that today -- that two days before departure on the 30th December, 1993 -

12     1993, you are correct - that you had received from your superior officer

13     the tasks to go to that mission; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   When you did your proofing with the Prosecution, we received

16     proofing notes which reflects that you stated to them that you do not

17     know anybody refusing to go on this mission among your officers, fellow

18     officers and troops; at least, this is what we are led to believe from

19     the proofing notes.

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   In respect of the first group, which departed in mid-December,

22     where part of your unit also departed, do you know -- do you have any

23     information whether they volunteered to go on that mission or not?

24        A.   I do not have such information.

25        Q.   Another question and then we will have to go back into private

Page 2018

 1     session.

 2             You stated to the Prosecution during your proofing before your

 3     testimony that during that mission you wore VJ uniforms, you remember

 4     saying so.

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   You did not remove the insignia of the Army of Yugoslavia at that

 7     time?

 8        A.   I did not mention insignia.  No question was asked.  I don't

 9     recall.

10        Q.   You do not recall taking them off?

11        A.   That's correct.  I do not recall taking them off.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we have to go back

14     into private session again.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can the Chamber please move into private session.

16 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber I]

17  THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Earlier today in response to a question from the Prosecution when

21     you were shown entries in the war diary, you confirmed that certain

22     officers from your unit did train VRS soldiers to use sniper rifles, and

23     we can see that from the entries.

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]  Could we now call up, please,

Page 2019

 1     another entry in the war diary, P353, page 15 in B/C/S and page 16 in

 2     English, an entry for 2000 hours on the 18th of January, 1994.  Just a

 3     moment.  I find the hard copy easier.

 4        Q.   I am reading the second sentence here:  "A sabotage group 30 men

 5     strong attacked our positions above Srednje early in the morning.  The

 6     attack was repelled where the men were awake.  However, at the points

 7     where the men were still asleep, the Turks slaughtered eight of our men,

 8     wounded others, and captured a PAM, an anti-aircraft machine gun, as well

 9     as a mortar."

10             Paunovic made this entry, but do you remember these events?

11        A.   Yes, I've heard of it.

12        Q.   That's when these men of the Army of Republika Srpska, I suppose,

13     not your men, got killed?

14        A.   Members of the Army of Republika Srpska got killed.  I don't know

15     to which brigade they belonged, but it was an area near Orlovo.

16        Q.   Do you remember during your stay there, was it a standing warning

17     to you that sabotage groups of the enemy could make incursions and also

18     use their own snipers against you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you agree with me that the main point of training snipers is

21     to counter the sabotage terrorist groups of the enemy?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Between your positions near Vogosca - and we'll show the map

24     later - between Vogosca and the city of Sarajevo, there were BH Army

25     positions, correct?

Page 2020

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In view of that frontline, you had no opportunity of ever seeing

 3     the city of Sarajevo, correct?

 4        A.   From our positions, Sarajevo could not be seen.

 5        Q.   Did you hear at that time that VRS snipers were shooting at

 6     civilians in Sarajevo?  Did any such information reach you?

 7        A.   I know nothing about that.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move back into open

 9     session, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Hopefully, we'll now have a very clear picture of where exactly

16     you were, and I'll ask you to mark certain positions on the map.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like a copy of the 65 ter map

18     9244 to be placed in front of the witness.

19        Q.   And now, we'll see, Mr. Tesic, if this map will be of assistance

20     to all of us in the courtroom.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now zoom in some more.  Zoom

22     out now, please, once.  Now we need to zoom in some more and raise the

23     name of "Vogosca" a bit higher up, and now move it a bit to the left.

24     Perfect.

25        Q.   Mr. Tesic, does this map look good to you?  I'll ask you to mark

Page 2021

 1     certain positions.

 2        A.   Yes, it's fine.

 3        Q.   With the assistance of the usher, I'd like you to take the

 4     electronic pen and mark certain things on the screen.  The first

 5     question:  At which location did you arrive exactly on the 31st of

 6     December when you came to the area of Vogosca?  Where were you, if you

 7     can find it?  And put a number 1 there.  Larger.

 8        A.    Your Honours, I showed the facility approximately, but my pen

 9     moved to the right.

10        Q.   You wanted to show Hotel Park?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we erase it and then --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We can do it again.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So it's the location of Hotel Park, and now put a number 1 there.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in the documents we reviewed certain locations I

18     mentioned.  First of all, you said that one of the places you were close

19     to at one point was the Golf VW factory.

20        A.   We're talking about the factory -- the automobile factory

21     Sarajevo TAS.  Shall I put a circle around it?

22        Q.   If you're able to.  Put number 2 there.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   On this map, are you able to mark approximately the positions

25     that your units held without moving an inch, as you said?  On which

Page 2022

 1     positions were they?

 2        A.   I can mark it roughly because they were together with the Vogosca

 3     Brigade, but I'll mark the positions.  Part of the 2nd Motorised

 4     Battalion, I'll mark it with 3, and part of our police, number 4.

 5        Q.   You mean military police?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Mr. Lukic, that statement, part of the 2nd

 8     Motorised -- well, that was not your question.  Okay.  It's changed now.

 9     Thank you.  You may proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Anything else you remember?

12        A.   In these gaps we had three tanks, but they were static.  I'm not

13     quite sure that I can mark the approximate position of one tank, which is

14     here.  One was close to the 2nd Motorised Battalion.  I'm not sure about

15     the third.  I don't remember.

16        Q.   Put a T near these two dots.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Can you see on this map the name of Zuc hill or elevation and put

19     a circle around it?

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Lower down there is the same name, Zuc.  I don't understand if

22     this is a village.

23        A.   No, this is a trig point.

24        Q.   Put number 5 there.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 2023

 1        Q.   This place marked 5, Zuc, this was a position held by the BH

 2     Army, correct?

 3        A.   That's what I heard.  It was not one of our controlled areas.

 4        Q.   Positions 3 and 4, was that the forward combat line, or were some

 5     units ahead of you?

 6        A.   200 metres ahead of us, there were trenches of the other side.

 7        Q.   You mean the BH Army?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Can you draw an imaginary line, perhaps change the colour and use

10     blue.  Can we use the blue pen?

11        A.   Some of their positions were here in the area of Ugorsko, and we

12     could not observe any further ahead because of the lay of the land.

13        Q.   Can we erase the 5 near Zuc and redraw it in blue?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you erase it, you are going to erase

15     everything.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right.  I suppose it's clear that

17     number 5, Zuc, was also an area controlled by the BH Army.  It's not in

18     dispute.

19             THE WITNESS:  That's correct.

20             THE COURT:  The only point, Mr. Lukic, is that you referred the

21     witness to another Zuc below the one Zuc.  Now, I don't know which one is

22     the correct Zuc that was the -- that was held by the BH Army.  There's a

23     bigger Zuc down below there.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Right.  You see, Mr. Tesic, there are two markings Zuc, one in

Page 2024

 1     smaller letters, one in larger letters.  Is this a distinction between a

 2     place and a hill?

 3        A.   They were holding Zuc hill and Orlic.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is Orlic also a hill?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Trig point 876.  A very

 7     dominant elevation.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This Orlic, can you also mark that hill and put number 6 there?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Now, to be very precise, can you put a blue circle on top of the

12     red on position 5?  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this map, Your

14     Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The map is admitted into evidence.  May it please

16     be given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D18, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]  And to have a complete picture, I'd

20     like to call up another map.  3D 1D00-1821.  Sorry, I'll repeat this.

21     1D00-1821.  3D.  I think we could zoom in a bit.  A bit more.  Perfect.

22        Q.   Mr. Tesic, if you can find your way around this map, I'll only

23     ask you where Vogosca and Zuc and your positions were.  Can you mark

24     that?

25        A.   No.

Page 2025

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in a bit more.  Scroll

 2     up, please.

 3        Q.   Now, perhaps, can you recognise Vogosca?

 4        A.   No, I can't venture a guess.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps during the break I can

 6     prepare a hard copy.  Your Honours, could we take the break now, because

 7     I would like to ask one more question on this map after the break and

 8     then proceed with my final questions.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very well then.  We'll take a break and come back

10     at half past 12.00.  Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If one copy, one hard copy could be

15     given to the Prosecution and to the witness.  We were quite ambitious,

16     but nevertheless, I'm a bit skeptical about the success of our venture.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we able to see it on the monitor?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Mr. Tesic, if this means anything to you, what I'm interested in

20     is for you to find the Vogosca and the Zuc on this map, the Zuc hill, to

21     explain those two matters here.  If you can't locate them, then I'll try

22     a third tack.

23        A.   I can't.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we please recall 65 ter 2942

25     map, please.

Page 2026

 1        Q.   Mr. Tesic, please take a look.  What I'd like you to do is to try

 2     to locate Vogosca and the Zuc elevation on this map.  Would you like it

 3     to be zoomed up?

 4        A.   No, no need for that.  Thank you.  This is an aerial photography,

 5     and as an officer, I know how to read those maps or photos.  I can see

 6     here the Sarajevo airport, and I presume, I dare not state for certain,

 7     but here where you see the sides of the world, this in the upper left

 8     corner should be the area of Vogosca.

 9        Q.   If you could encircle it.

10        A.   Well, I can't be certain.

11        Q.   Then, I will give it up, because I don't want to lead you into

12     any speculations.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us to go

14     back into private session, unfortunately.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

16 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber I]

17  THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up Exhibit P356 on the

20     screen, please.  Could we please focus on the title or the heading of

21     this document, please, on the top of the page.  In the B/C/S, please.

22     Move it to the left, please.

23        Q.   In answering questions concerning this document yesterday, on

24     page 1921/4 of the transcript, you stated that this was an order.  Could

25     you please take a look at this copy and tell us whether something

Page 2027

 1     different is written here.  I don't want to lead you or suggest an answer

 2     to you.

 3        A.   I cannot interpret this.

 4        Q.   Should I then put it to you that the word here is "briefing"?

 5        A.   It appears to be so.

 6        Q.   This is the same in the English translation, so I wanted to avoid

 7     any confusion, so we have confirmed that this is a briefing report.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom out the B/C/S

 9     version.

10        Q.   This document does not show to whom it was addressed; at least, I

11     could not find any reference.

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   What you testified about this was as follows:  In the first

14     paragraph, there is a list of the units that entered, and I'll read it

15     out:  Parts of the Guards Brigade was used to re-enforce the 72nd Special

16     Brigade and enter the formation of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the

17     17th December, 1993.  Upon the arrival of the Guards Motorised Brigade on

18     the 31st December, 1993, to Vogosca the reinforcement units left the

19     formation of the 72nd Special Brigade and entered the formation of the

20     Guards Motorised Brigade.  The current numerical strength of the Guards

21     Motorised Brigade is 210 men, officers --

22        A.   Civilians.

23        Q.   Civilians and contract soldiers, I presume?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   Can't find your bearings with all those acronyms.  So what I'm

Page 2028

 1     interested in, since I'm starting with my closing questions, all the

 2     troops, all the men that were engaged from the Guards Brigade over there,

 3     from this document it is visible that on the 13th of January, 1994, from

 4     your unit there are a total of 210 men from the first group and the group

 5     that subsequently arrived.  Is this the maximum number of men from your

 6     unit that were there, give or take a few?  So is this the total of Guards

 7     Motorised Brigade members who were there at that time?

 8        A.   Yes, this is the overall number of men there, give or take five

 9     or ten men.

10        Q.   In relation to the overall number of the peacetime composition of

11     the Guards Brigade - we know that in wartime the number goes up - this

12     number, this figure is tantamount to approximately 10 percent of the men

13     of the Guards Brigade who were actually there?

14        A.   Given that overall number, the overall strength was around 1500

15     men, then you could easily calculate what this number was in percentage

16     terms.

17        Q.   In the next paragraph, there is mention of the units.  You

18     testified about that, but what I'd like to hear more about is the tank

19     platoon M-84.  How many tanks are usually there in a platoon?

20        A.   Three.

21        Q.   So this is what you showed us.  So you had a total of three tanks

22     with you there at that time?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   I will read out paragraph 4.  It says:  "Problems.  Strong

25     anti-armoured --

Page 2029

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Can we just scroll to paragraph 4, please.

 2     Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   "Strong anti-armoured resistance of the enemy and insufficient

 5     number of our forces for tracking attacks launched by tanks and the

 6     armoured personnel carriers can inflict serious losses to our forces.

 7     Tanks have only .5 combat munition sets without any serious prospects to

 8     improve the resupply of the munition in the next day."  This is what the

 9     report says.

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   So could we conclude from paragraph 4 that the enemy held very

12     strong positions and could inflict substantial losses on you if you were

13     to go on an attack; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that was the thinking of the Commander of the Guards

15     Brigade, Lieutenant-Colonel Ljubisa Stojimirovic, the man who signed this

16     document.

17        Q.   It was mentioned yesterday in one of the documents that there was a

18     possibility that, after your departure, members of the 67th - correction,

19     63rd Parachute Brigade from Nis would take your positions.  Do you have any

20     information that somebody went to replace you after you departed in

21     January 1994?

22        A.   I do not have such information, but I don't think that anybody

23     else went over there.

24        Q.   My position, Mr. Tesic, is that in the Pancir operation, which

25     was an attack operation of the VRS, that in it the Vogosca Brigade, the

Page 2030

 1     Rajlovac Brigade and one brigade of the Krajina Corps, one brigade of the

 2     Herzegovina corps and 500 members of the police of the Republic of Srpska

 3     took part in it.  Do you agree with me that those units represented a

 4     substantial force of an army in an operation in such an area?

 5        A.   What you listed are respectable forces for a commander.  I would

 6     also want to note that that area, we had Kosevo Brigade as well.

 7        Q.   And from the VJ, from the Army of Yugoslavia, who was present

 8     there in accordance with my thesis and my information in the first group

 9     that was led by Colonel Stupar, there were 120 men, and then there was

10     the other group which came with your unit, so to bring the total slightly

11     above 200 men who were engaged in that action; isn't that correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   In your statement to the Prosecution, you said -- and we can

14     bring it up on the screen if necessary, you said that at paragraph 81,

15     you stated there, to be as precise as possible:  "Due to loss of eight

16     officers, 72nd Brigade was in a poor state."  Do you recall saying --

17     describing the situation as such when you came to that place?

18        A.   Yes.  These were the words of the superior officers.

19        Q.   And you confirmed to me during the first part of my

20     cross-examination that the Guards Brigade really had a status of an elite

21     military unit; isn't that correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   I presume that the 72nd Special Brigade also did bear such an

24     epithet of an elite unit?

25        A.   I'm not a commander so that I could assess this, but I presume

Page 2031

 1     yes.

 2        Q.   Do you agree with me that from the 15th of December until your

 3     pullout towards the end of January, you and your units and the units

 4     preceding you there did not help in any substantial way to that offensive

 5     action since you were holding positions without advancing throughout that

 6     period?

 7        A.   The units of the Guards Brigade did not participate in offensive

 8     actions during their stay from the 31st December, 1993, through 30th of

 9     January, 1994, when we were already back in Belgrade.

10        Q.   While you were there, the units of the Army of Republika Srpska

11     did not capture Zuc hill?

12        A.   I heard of no such thing, and I would have heard.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tesic.  I have no

14     further questions.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you sit down, Mr. Lukic, could we bring

17     that exhibit, please, on the screen, P356.

18             Mr. Tesic, can you explain something for me here which is not

19     quite clear.  It says:  "The elements of the Guards Motorised Brigade

20     units reinforced the 72nd Special Brigade, thus entering the formation of

21     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the 17th December, 1993.  Upon the arrival

22     of the Guards Motorised Brigade in Vogosca on the 31st December, 1993,

23     the reinforcement units left the formation of the 72nd Special Brigade

24     and entered the formation of the Guards Motorised Brigade."

25             And that's where my question is.  Now, these are the Guards

Page 2032

 1     Motorised Brigade units who are leaving the 72nd Special Brigade and

 2     entering the formation of the Guards Motorised Brigade.  Were there two

 3     Guards Motorised Brigades?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was only one

 5     Motorised Guards Brigade.  In this passage, reference is made to a part

 6     of a unit of the 2nd Motorised Battalion equivalent to 60 to 80 members

 7     who reinforced the 72nd Special Brigade.  With the arrival of the Guards

 8     Brigade in the 31st of December, 1993, they leave the 72nd Special

 9     Brigade and join the Guards Brigade that had arrived in Vogosca in the

10     Republika Srpska.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And these Guards Brigades that had arrived are

12     also from Serbia?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Like the ones who are joining them?  Okay.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And when we talk of the current numerical strength

17     being 210 men, is that the current numerical strength of the two parts of

18     the Guards Motorised Brigade put together, or is it just the one part?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just one part of the unit, and

20     I said the same to the Defence counsel.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  Now, if you put the two parts together,

22     what would have been the strength of the Guards Motorised Brigade?

23     Numerical strength?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are talking about two parts.  If

25     we take one part only, the number, the total number is 210.

Page 2033

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And if we take two parts, what is the number, sir?

 2     That's the question.  I don't know whether the two parts were equal

 3     halves or 80 percent and 20 percent.  So when we put the two parts

 4     together, what was the numerical strength?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the first part is 60

 6     to 80 men.  The second part is 210 to 220 men that arrive from Belgrade.

 7     The total --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Around 300, give or take?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- is around 210.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter must have made a mistake.  Can

11     the witness repeat.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please repeat yourself.  The interpreter didn't

13     hear you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The total number of the Guards

15     Brigade on the 31st December, 1993, was around 210 men.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The second part was

17     110 to 120.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So it's something like 320 to 330, the total sum?

19     I must be missing something.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I try to assist.

22     The Prosecution and I both looked at documents and have a clear picture,

23     so we can just ask the witness to confirm what we understand.  In

24     mid-December, one part of the Guards Brigade left, as the witness says,

25     60 to 80 men.  Then on the 31st December, another part of their brigade

Page 2034

 1     arrived, around ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 120 to 130 men.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, the first group left the 72nd

 4     Special Brigade who left for Belgrade and joined the second group so that

 5     together they totalled 210.  I think that's what the witness meant to

 6     say.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  That clears me.  Thank you

 9     very much.  You said you are done with your cross-examination.  Madam

10     Sutherland, any re-examination?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let me just say that we were in

13     private session until the end of my cross-examination.  I don't know if

14     the Prosecutor wishes to stay.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  I stayed in

16     private session because I wanted clarification of this document.  May the

17     document please be removed from the screen.  Thank you very much.  May we

18     please move into open session.

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Madam Sutherland.

22                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

23        Q.   Mr. Tesic, in cross-examination this morning, you were taken to

24     your statement and asked about officers who were part of the 30th

25     Personnel Centre who became officers of the VRS, and you said that that

Page 2035

 1     was based on what you had heard from the officers who through the

 2     services of the 30th Personnel Centre became officers of the VRS.  Who

 3     did you speak to, which officers, the names of the officers that you

 4     spoke to?

 5        A.   The first officer that comes to mind is my deputy commander of

 6     the battalion from Vukovar, Slavko Stijekovic [phoen].  He left the

 7     Guards Brigade to go to Republika Srpska, and he was assigned to some

 8     duties in the area of Banja Luka.  There were other commanding officers

 9     who went to Republika Srpska from other units of the Guards Brigade.  I

10     know some left from the military police battalion, some lieutenants who

11     names I don't remember.  One lieutenant went to Bijeljina from the 2nd

12     Motorised Battalion under Commander Borovcanin.  I later saw that man and

13     talked to him.  I can't remember if he was battalion commander or company

14     commander.  I spoke to more than four people, and they all said they went

15     there voluntarily and their orders came from their superiors.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour and Defence.  I should

17     have given you the page number, 32, of the transcript.

18        Q.   And that was in relation to sending people who were born in BiH?

19        A.   Yes.  Those who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina were sent there

20     after an interview in the personnel administration of the General Staff

21     and after a decision was written on their assignment to the VRS.  I

22     cannot tell you what exactly that procedure involved.

23        Q.   You said that their orders came from their superior.  What orders

24     are you talking about?

25        A.   We are talking about orders from their superior officers.  The

Page 2036

 1     battalion commander would convey orders from brigade commander.  We are

 2     talking down to brigade level, and I believe the same apply to the

 3     Special Units Corps.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  One moment, Your Honour.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Mr. Tesic, you said that orders came from their superior

 8     officers.  What was the nature of the orders?

 9        A.   Officers who were born in Republika Srpska were invited to a

10     meeting, and what happened then, I wouldn't know, but all I know, that

11     some of them told me later that they were going to Republika Srpska to

12     assume new duties.  I didn't attend that meeting, and I can't tell you

13     anything further about it.

14        Q.   I want to turn to another topic now.  Pages 34 and 35 of today's

15     transcript, you were asked a question by the Defence.  A proposition was

16     put to you that when your unit went to Vogosca, you didn't participate in

17     active much -- you didn't participate much in active action, you were

18     mainly holding the line, to which you replied that did you not move an

19     inch during your entire stay there.

20        A.   Yes.  That's what I told you, too, during proofing, save for an

21     intervention carried out with a couple of vehicles and a group of 20

22     members or so of the military police in the area of Srednje, and that was

23     reflected in one of the documents shown today.

24        Q.   The VJ was working in tandem with the VRS, wasn't it?  Or were

25     you working in tandem with the VRS, I should better say.

Page 2037

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is leading, the way the

 3     question is formulated.  I'm not sure the Prosecution should be allowed.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Sutherland.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I reformulated it to say, were you working in

 6     tandem?  The answer is yes or no.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That term "tandem" is inadmissible

 8     in military terminology.  The relationship, superior/subordinate, is

 9     always dominant.  That's the only thing that's in issue.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   I will rephrase my question.  Were you coordinating operations

12     with the VRS units?

13        A.   I couldn't answer that question because that was exclusively

14     within the jurisdiction of the unit commander.  Operations officers are

15     not involved in those activities.  As for the drafting of maps and

16     documents, the operations officer receives all instructions from the

17     commander.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may we go into closed session,

19     please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

21 [Closed session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber I]

22  THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in closed session.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have Exhibit P353, the war diary on the

24     screen, please.  If we could go to page 10 of the English.  It's entry

25     number 18 of the 10th of January, 1994.

Page 2038

 1        Q.   Mr. Tesic, you can see there a reference to the evening of the

 2     11th of January:  An officer from the platoon shall go to the Rajlovac

 3     Brigade Commander Major Radic to agree about next activities."  Is this

 4     coordinating with the VRS?

 5        A.   No.  This is about the military police platoon for special

 6     purposes, a very small unit, and very few members of it were present in

 7     that area, so we cannot really talk about an operation.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we go to the next entry, number 19, entry

 9     number 19 on the 11th of January, 1994.

10        Q.   We can see there that the commander of the Military Police

11     Special Purposes Platoon shall send senior sergeant - and it's a last

12     name illegible in the English translation - to the Rajlovac Brigade

13     Commander Major Radic for the reconnaissance of the direction of the

14     engagement of the snipers.  Is this coordinating with the VRS?

15        A.   This is probably about an agreement, an understanding that had

16     been reached, but I couldn't tell you what exactly because I never went

17     to the area of Rajlovac in the period covered by the war diary.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 13 I think of the English

19     translation.  It's around entry 26.  It's just below that.  It's the 17th

20     of January, 1994, at 630 hours.  If we could go a couple of pages on to

21     page 13, and it's the bottom entry.

22        Q.   Mr. Tesic, we see here under tasks:  "Sergeant 1st Class Veljko

23     Sironja from the tank platoon shall carry out reconnaissance of certain

24     directions for the next activities with the Rajlovac Brigade commander."

25             Is that coordination with the VRS?

Page 2039

 1        A.   The assignments issued here were planned before for this period,

 2     but they were not actually implemented in the field.

 3        Q.   We can also see below there, point 3:  "Two groups of snipers

 4     shall remain with brigades until the 19th of January, 1994."  Which

 5     brigades were they, VRS brigades?

 6        A.   Probably.  I did write this, although I can't remember it.

 7     That's probably right.  I think there was a document saying they were

 8     supposed to stay there from the 17th through the 19th, the one where

 9     there was a reference to snipers and training.  You can look up that

10     document again, perhaps.

11        Q.   Would you say this is coordination with the VRS?

12        A.   I noted this, and as for expressing an opinion, it was up to the

13     commander Lieutenant-Colonel Stojimirovic.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we go to the next page, please, page 14 of

15     the English translation.

16        Q.   We can see halfway down the page, now, this is for an entry of

17     the 17th of January, 1994, at 2000 hours, and it's around -- it's just

18     after -- so it's on page 14 of the English translation.  And we see

19     towards the bottom half of the page -- I'll wait for the B/C/S.  Do you

20     see where it says "orders for the 18th of January, 1994"?  "With one

21     combat group from the Military Police Special Purpose Platoon and a

22     military police battalion detachment, in cooperation with the forces of

23     the Vogoscanska Brigade launch an attack along the axis K870-K850; in

24     cooperation with combat group 2 along the axis Perivoj-Vis and facilitate

25     the attack of the BG2."

Page 2040

 1             Do you see that entry?  Do you see this is as cooperation with

 2     the VRS?  Coordination, I'm sorry.

 3        A.   What you've read is correct, but I see you are mentioning a

 4     detachment, but it's not actually a detachment.  It's a group from the

 5     military police platoon for special purposes.  It's the equivalent of

 6     eight men and a squad from the military police platoon.  A squad is up to

 7     eight men.  So it was a maximum of 16 men that engaged in coordinated

 8     action with, I don't see any more on my page, what kind of coordinated

 9     action it was, I don't know, but it was a small number of members of the

10     Guards Brigade the way it's written here.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to entry number 34, which is on

12     page 20 of the English translation.

13        Q.   And then we see the reference halfway down the page to:  "All are

14     required maximum vigilance and to be ready to be engaged in active

15     defence."

16        A.   Yes, this is what is written here.

17        Q.   And then down further below under "Orders," number 2:  "Send a

18     Praga" - it says in the English translation - "from Lieutenant-Colonel

19     Josipovic within the formation of the BG-2 in accordance with the

20     previously received tasks on the 23rd of January, 1994..."  You said that

21     Colonel Josipovic was in the VRS?  Is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And who is BG-2?

24        A.   I couldn't answer that question.  So much time has elapsed, I

25     wouldn't know.

Page 2041

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have seen on previous entries BG group being

 2     interpreted as combat group 2.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I was wanting the witness to

 4     clarify, was BG-2 part of the VRS or part of the VJ troops?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then put the question that way.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Mr. Tesic, was BG -- do you know whether BG-2, i.e., the combat

 8     group, was part of the VRS or the VJ troops?

 9        A.   I can here only express my opinion on the basis of what is

10     written here.  Combat group 2 is within the composition of the VRS.

11        Q.   And it says at -- under order number 1:  "At 2000 hours, Major

12     Cvjetinovic was ordered to strengthen the Ilijas Brigade in the sector of

13     Srednje to resubordinate one BOV."

14             Is that an armoured personal carrier?

15        A.   It is a combat armoured vehicle with a 20-millimetre weapon, a

16     wheeled vehicle.

17        Q.   "To resubordinate that vehicle to Semizovac garrison for the

18     commander of the Ilijas Brigade Captain Savic by 1000 hours on the 23rd

19     of January, 1994."

20             Now --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Who does the Ilijas Brigade belong to?

23        A.   Ilijas Brigade is one of the units of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

24     of the Army of Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   Do you see this entry as coordinating operations with the VRS?

Page 2042

 1        A.   It is a matter for the commanders to decide, maybe help in

 2     personnel and materiel.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To which army did Major Cvjetinovic belong?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Major Cvjetinovic was a member of

 5     the Guards Brigade of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we could go to --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But he was born in the wider area

 8     of Srebrenica, Republika Srpska.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we move away from this page, I just have a

10     question to ask.  That entry number 2 under "Orders" which says:  "Send a

11     Praga from Lieutenant-Colonel Josipovic within the formation of the BG-2

12     in accordance with the previously received tasks on the 23rd of January,

13     1994, at 630 hours."  So the tasks were received on the 23rd of January.

14     1994; is that how it reads?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see the whole document, but

16     the page shown to me does not show that.  I can read out item 2 --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 22nd of January, 1994.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we show that, please, because -- yes.  I think

20     it's at the bottom of the page in the B/C/S.  Could we please scroll up

21     or turn the next page.  Is that right, that the tasks were received on

22     the 23rd of January, 1994?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, but what's written there?  Can you tell us

25     what's written there?

Page 2043

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm reading the second part:

 2     Composition of the combat group 2 to Guards Brigade element commander is

 3     to enter the battle group composition who will command the mortar platoon

 4     for the next two or three days.  This document requires for a commanding

 5     officer to be sent to command a small unit of two or three mortars for

 6     the next two or three days within the VRS.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if we could go back to the previous

 8     page --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Tesic, I'm going to ask that we go back to the

10     previous page, please, in the B/C/S.  Right.  Now, let us confirm one

11     thing.  This entry number 34, sir, can you tell us whose signature is

12     that?  Who entered this entry?  Is that --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my handwriting, and this is

14     my signature.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  Now, you tell us -- can we scroll down,

16     please, to the bottom of that page.  Right.  Can you read that entry

17     number 2, which starts with:  "Send a Praga from Lieutenant-Colonel

18     Josipovic..."  and read it up to where it says "... 23rd January, 1994

19     ..."  I would like you to tell me -- you to read your own handwriting and

20     tell us what it is you wrote there.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness read slower, please.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please read slow.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm reading.

24             On the day 23rd of January, 1994, at 0630, to the composition of

25     combat group 2, one Praga is to be sent in accordance with a previously

Page 2044

 1     received task by Lieutenant-Colonel Josipovic.  And from 630 to the

 2     composition of combat group 2, one officer is to enter coming from the

 3     2nd Motorised Battalion who is to command a platoon of 60-millimetre

 4     mortar to command over them for the next two or three days.

 5             Your Honours, in the first part of this item, we are discussing

 6     sending one Praga to the combat -- composition of combat group 2 of

 7     probably VRS.  At the same time, on the next day, on the 23rd January,

 8     one commanding officer from the 2nd Motorised Battalion of the Guards

 9     Brigade of Army of Yugoslavia from Belgrade is sent to command a platoon

10     of 60-millimetre mortars for the subsequent two or three days.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So -- and this was issued on the

13     22nd of January in the evening hours during the briefing.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tesic, because --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for

16     understanding me.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, can I finish, Judge.

18             JUDGE DAVID:  Yes, please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have cleared an issue which was causing me

20     serious problems, because what you are telling us is something that is to

21     happen in the future.  What is written here is something that has

22     happened in the past, and my question was, how did it happen on the 23rd

23     if the entry was on the 21st?  You see, I must complain, therefore, about

24     the translation.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 2045

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You know, this translation here says that "in

 2     accordance with previously received tasks" on the --

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I think the word "on" should be "for."

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Beg your pardon?  It says:  "In accordance with

 5     previously received tasks on the 23rd of January..."

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  Your Honour, I think the word "for" -- the

 7     word "on" 23rd January, it should be "for."  In accordance with the

 8     previously received tasks for the 23rd of January, which is just the

 9     witness has just explained.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's true.  That's true, ma'am.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, I agree, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But I'm saying check your translations.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your translations are very bad, or otherwise, I

15     don't understand the language.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And also, at the beginning of paragraph 2, Your

17     Honour, "Send a Praga from..."  As the witness has just explained, it's

18     to send a Praga to Lieutenant-Colonel Josipovic.  That's the way I

19     understood the witness, so we will have this document revised.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is this a CLSS translation?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I think this document must be MFI'd,

23     notwithstanding the fact that the Defence has not objected because it is

24     not telling us the story that is being told by the witness.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 2046

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, this is supposed to be P353.  If it is

 2     not already MFI'd, may it please be marked for identification, Madam

 3     Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit P353

 5     marked for identification.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, I'm done, Judge.  Thank

 7     you so much.

 8             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Tesic, in the document we are exhibited now,

 9     there is a concept that has been repeated many times and is the one

10     related to active defence.  Here in the document it says:  All are

11     required maximum vigilance and to be ready to engage in active defence.

12             In this concept, I would like to put it in relation to what you

13     have said on the transcripts on the 24th November in page 5, lines 23 to

14     25.  You said in relation to the question why your unit went to Vogosca,

15     you said:  "The reason why we were supposed to go there was to help pull

16     out the 72nd Special Brigade from that area, to take over the bodies of

17     aided members of that brigade, and to the extent possible to stabilize

18     the part of the defence line held by the troops by the Vogosca Brigade of

19     the VRS."

20             The concept of stabilize into -- in connection with active

21     defence, what are the hypotheses of action that the tactics require at

22     that moment are indicated according to the situation?  What is the

23     meaning of stabilize within the concept of active defence?  Could you

24     give me an example of the hypotheses that could encounter a unit to make

25     operational the concept of active defence with the tactical purpose of

Page 2047

 1     stabilize a line of defence?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One important thing is diminished:

 3     Combat moral of a unit.  So a unit is ready to leave and withdraw the

 4     whole position, and the frontline saying, I don't want to be killed, I

 5     don't want to be here anymore, I'm going somewhere.  Our coming there

 6     changed the awareness of those people and made them think, If those guys

 7     are coming here, why shouldn't I stick around?  Am I being clear?  When

 8     combat morale is diminished, it is very difficult to bring things into a

 9     prior state, and combat morale must have been diminished by the losses of

10     the Vogosca Brigade of the VRS and the 72nd Special Brigade where seven

11     officers and contract soldiers from within the VJ were killed in action.

12             JUDGE DAVID:  Are you saying, Mr. Tesic, that the concept of

13     active defence involves only psychological support and strengthening

14     morale or involves military action in relation to objectives that may

15     bring the enemy toward you in order to advance their line of separation?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this does not go for

17     of achieving dominant position in combat activities at a certain point

18     and to prepare conditions for further assault.  It was, rather, a

19     situation held on to what you already have.

20             JUDGE DAVID:  Mr. Tesic, again, among the hypotheses for action,

21     if you are given instructions to stabilize a line, and you find

22     resistance, military active resistance, what do you do?  You said you

23     didn't move an inch.  Didn't you move an inch because there were no need

24     to defend the line because of the situation were already stabilized or

25     you will have moved a kilometre if possible in order to establish a line,

Page 2048

 1     and were that were senior orders?  I ask many questions to you, so please

 2     answer those that you consider more proper.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm glad that you are thinking

 4     along those lines.  I'm trying to give you a proper valid answer.

 5             At no moment were we told that we should be ready to attack a

 6     facility so that to switch from defence into attack.  We did not see such

 7     documents, neither could we discuss them.  The basic task was to hold on

 8     to the area already controlled.  If you noticed in the war diary, the

 9     first time when the commander of the Guards Brigade issues tasks and

10     orders to his subordinated units, he says to perform active defence and,

11     in the area from which active defence is being carried out, certain

12     targets may be destroyed - military targets, I'm discussing here - that

13     may appear in front of the area being defended within the area of

14     responsibility of a particular unit.

15             JUDGE DAVID:  And the destruction of military objectives when

16     necessary because of the challenges put to your line are also authorised

17     within the mandate of a stabilisation of a line.  Is that correct?  Would

18     you be inactive receiving this orders to stabilize a line facing a

19     military action on the other part?  You said destroy.  Is that --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, depending on what targets

21     there are.  Destroy a vehicle, a tank; or incapacitate, you can

22     incapacitate a person; maybe neutralise, if we talk about a piece of

23     weaponry.  I just give you one example.  A target must be either

24     neutralised or destroyed or incapacitated so that the person defending

25     the line should avoid a situation where it would be threatened or

Page 2049

 1     jeopardized or to avoid a unit being jeopardized if we are discussing a

 2     military unit or a military formation.

 3             JUDGE DAVID:  The concept of active defence involves also

 4     engagement.  Engage, you said in one of your replies, engage the enemy,

 5     so active Defence is really one of the postures facing both potential

 6     combat, one of the tactics facing potential combat, military opposition,

 7     military attacks?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One could think and talk in that

 9     manner, roughly, yes.

10             JUDGE DAVID:  So that the strategic objectives given in one order

11     are not strategic objectives in abstract, but they are subjected to the

12     tactical practical situations of the day, of the hour, and of the minute;

13     is that correct?  Because a strategic objectives are in general, the

14     outline of many tactics facing the reality of your actions, in military

15     terms; is that correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first, a strategic goal is

17     not issued to a brigade or battalion-level unit.  Whether there was a

18     strategic goal given to the units of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, I

19     couldn't provide you with this information.  I presume it existed, but I

20     mustn't state it as certain because I don't know.

21             JUDGE DAVID:  Thank you very much.  I was just interested in how

22     you understood the orders of active defence, engagement and stabilization

23     among the potential situations that you may encounter facing in Vogosca

24     the reality of a possible or potential army confrontation, and also to

25     understand what you said, "I did not move an inch."  Thank you very much,

Page 2050

 1     Mr. Tesic.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Madam Sutherland, you may proceed.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could turn to entry number 38 on page 23

 5     of the English translation.

 6        Q.   Mr. Tesic, this is an entry for the 26th of January, 1994, and it

 7     says:  "The Guards Motorised Brigade commander carried out reconnaissance

 8     with the TG-1 Commander Lieutenant-Colonel Josipovic in the area of the

 9     Rajlovac and Ilidza Brigade for the purpose of further coordinated

10     actions."

11             Again, does this passage in the war diary show coordination

12     between the VJ and the VRS, coordinating operations?

13        A.   This is my handwriting and my signature, and I stated that the

14     commander of the Guards Brigade at a certain -- was somewhere at a

15     certain date.  What they discussed, I don't know.  I put down coordinated

16     action.  I was told to do so, and that's that.

17        Q.   And who told you to do that?

18        A.   I receive orders from my commander only, and most probably he

19     said I was reconnaissing [as interpreted] in connection with further

20     coordinated actions.  And given that two days after this date indicated

21     here we started our return to our Belgrade garrison in Serbia, most

22     probably nothing ensued from all those joint reconnaissance trips,

23     planned coordinated actions.

24        Q.   And your superior officer, the Guards Motorised Brigade commander

25     is Lieutenant-Colonel Stojimirovic?

Page 2051

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Mr. Tesic, on page 34 of the transcript this morning, you were

 3     asked about your primary task of the unit -- sorry.  A proposition was

 4     put to you whether you agreed that your primary task of the unit was to

 5     go to Vogosca and secure the location so that you could recover the

 6     bodies of the dead members of the 72nd Brigade, and you in your answer

 7     said:  "I agree that our task was to recover the bodies of the members

 8     ever the 72nd Brigade."

 9             What did you do personally to recover the eight bodies?

10        A.   I personally did not take part in retrieving those bodies.  The

11     Guards Brigade assigned certain officers from the intelligence security

12     organs who, together with an officer from the 72nd Brigade, Major Radic,

13     collected information and tried to get in contact with the other side,

14     the BiH army, to affect the delivery of those bodies or an exchange of

15     bodies so that we could recover the bodies of the members of the 72nd

16     Brigade.

17        Q.   Sir, what were you doing in Vogosca for the month of January

18     1994?

19        A.   Could you explain?  Do you mean me personally or my unit?

20        Q.   Yes.  You said that the task was to recover the bodies of the

21     members of the 72nd Brigade, and you have just explained that you didn't

22     personally recover them.  So what were you and your unit doing in January

23     1994?

24        A.   Part of the officers of the Guards Brigade together with an

25     officer from the 72nd Brigade who had stayed behind after the 72nd

Page 2052

 1     Brigade had left the composition of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps were

 2     active and involved on that case.  The other members of the Guards

 3     Brigade together with the Vogosca Brigade carried out the defence of the

 4     area that they had control over.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Tesic, I think that question was a very simple

 6     question.  The question was, what were you and your unit doing in January

 7     1994?  Can you tell us what you did for the month of January 1994, you

 8     and your unit, in Vogosca?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The unit carried out defence tasks

10     together with the unit of the VRS.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does that answer your question, ma'am?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I may follow that up tomorrow morning, Your

13     Honour.  I note the time.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fair enough.  We'll then take the break and --

15     adjourn for the day, rather, and come back tomorrow at 9.00 in the

16     morning, same courtroom.

17             And, Mr. Tesic, once again, you are warned not to discuss this

18     case with anybody until you are excused from testifying.

19             Court adjourned.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

22                           November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.