081209ED

Page 2366

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

6 MR. SAXON:

7 Q. Witness MP-005, after the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina

8 in 1992, did the JNA army remain in Bosnia?

9 A. Your Honours, as the JNA was withdrawing from Bosnia, people --

10 the personnel who hailed from Bosnia and Herzegovina remained in Bosnia

11 and Herzegovina; and those who haled from Serbia, were transferred to

12 Serbia; and people who hailed from Bosnia and were at the time residing

13 in Serbia, were transferred from Serbia to Bosnia.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, let me give you some advice. Don't

15 anticipate questions that are going to come. Listen to the question that

16 is put to you, and answer that question only. The question to you was,

17 "After the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992, did the JNA army

18 remain in Bosnia?" You can give one of three answers: Yes, it did; no,

19 it didn't; I don't know. None of what you told us. Now, which one is it

20 between these three? Did the JNA remain in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I please

22 explain, the JNA --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just answer this question. Did the JNA remain in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the war broke out in Bosnia,

Page 2367

1 the JNA no longer existed at the time.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 MR. SAXON:

4 Q. When the JNA left Bosnia and Herzegovina and went to the Federal

5 Republic of Yugoslavia, was the equipment from your battalion also moved

6 to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

7 A. The equipment was not moved at all. Some of the equipment that

8 belonged to the JNA was actually transferred and the rest of it remained

9 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. And the equipment that remained in Bosnia and Herzegovina of your

11 battalion, who took possession of it, if you know?

12 A. That equipment automatically became property of the Army of

13 Republika Srpska.

14 MR. SAXON: Before I forget, I know there's an original exhibit

15 on the witness's desk, so perhaps that could be removed for safekeeping

16 now. And if we could please show the witness 65 ter number 430, please.

17 Q. Witness MP-005, you'll see this is a document, it says at the

18 top, "Approved by the commander of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska

19 Army." Below that, Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic, signed and stamped.

20 On the right-hand side it says, "National Defence State Secret." And

21 then in the middle it says, "Instructions for Command and Coordinated

22 Action in Anti-Aircraft Defence and Air Support." Are you following me?

23 A. Yes, I am, yes.

24 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to Roman numeral I that has the

25 title "Main Objectives of Coordinated Action." Do you see that?

Page 2368

1 A. Yes, I do, main objectives of coordinated action.

2 Q. And the first objective there says, "Ensure effective operations

3 by PVO or anti-aircraft defence forces against the enemy air force

4 throughout the war zone of the Republika Srpska Army." Then below that,

5 we see a paragraph that has a number of abbreviations, and I'm going to

6 go slowly so you can help us with these abbreviations. It says "Ensure

7 efficient coordination between V." Does V stand for air force?

8 A. Your Honours, V and PVO is the air force of the military of

9 Republika Srpska.

10 Q. And -- all right. Then it says, "and the following ..."

11 A. The following is anti-aircraft defence in the corps of the Army

12 of Republika Srpska, then air force and anti-aircraft defence of the

13 Yugoslav Army, and the last one is the air force command of the republic

14 of Serbian Krajina according to diagram number 1 enclosed in attachment.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, just for the record --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We keep getting some translation that I think is

17 Serbo-Croatian. Okay, go ahead. Let's hope things will be okay now.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, just for the record, the Prosecution is

19 not in possession of the diagram that is referred to at the end of this

20 paragraph.

21 Q. And then the next paragraph we see, "Prevent all attacks on V and

22 anti-aircraft defence aircraft at the airports of the Army of

23 Republika Srpska." Do you see that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 (redacted)

Page 2369

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 unit of the JNA army?

8 MR. SAXON: Yes, because before the war began the witness was a

9 member of what was then the JNA.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are talking about before the war, I'm sorry.

11 MR. SAXON: Literally. That's okay, Your Honour.

12 Q. I'll repeat by question, Mr. MP-005. Before the break-up of the

13 former Yugoslavia, while you were member of the JNA, did you ever observe

14 your battalion coordinating or exchanging information with units of

15 armies of other countries?

16 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, this was never the case, no.

17 MR. SAXON: Would that be a convenient time, Your Honour, to take

18 the first break?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed it is, if it is convenient for you. We'll

20 take the break and come back at 4.00. Court adjourned.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, before we begin, just a request, if the

25 lines 21 through 25 of page 24 of today's LiveNote could be redacted from

Page 2386

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

2 MR. SAXON:

3 Q. Mr. MP-005, while you were assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre,

4 did you receive any promotions?

5 A. Your Honours, yes.

6 Q. What army promoted you?

7 A. Your Honours, the Army of Yugoslavia.

8 Q. Did you receive these promotions while you were serving with the

9 Army of Republika Srpska?

10 A. Your Honours, yes.

11 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness 65 ter number 458,

12 please, and if we could please not publish this to the public.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want us to go into private session?

14 MR. SAXON: I don't think so, Your Honour. I believe I can do

15 this -- I'm going to try to do this.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then if it goes on to the screen won't it be

17 published?

18 MR. SAXON: I understood that we could be in public session

19 without showing the document to the public, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. If that is possible, that's

21 fine.

22 MR. SAXON:

23 Q. Witness, do you recognise this document?

24 A. I do, Your Honours, I recognise the document.

25 Q. And what is this document?

Page 2387

1 A. It's a military ID.

2 Q. Issued by what army?

3 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.

4 MR. SAXON: Could we please turn to page 5 in the English

5 version, and page 5 in the B/C/S version.

6 Q. Mr. MP-005, on this page of your military booklet we see -- well,

7 actually, why don't you tell us. What do we see here on this page? What

8 is being recorded here?

9 A. Your Honours, this is the data on active military service,

10 residence and address, as well as the ranks, all the ranks that I held.

11 Q. So if I may, just so that we understand, this page indicates each

12 rank that you held within the Army of Yugoslavia?

13 A. Your Honours, let me first say that this is not only something

14 that reflects my service in the Army of Yugoslavia. This is from the

15 very beginning while it was still the JNA.

16 Q. I understand that, and I'll rephrase my question. Does this page

17 reflect the ranks that you held in the JNA and the Army of Yugoslavia?

18 A. Yes, Your Honours.

19 Q. If we look at the left side of this page, the bottom half of the

20 left side shows you having the rank of lieutenant, and then if we move

21 over to the right side, the upper half of the document, it shows that you

22 now have the rank of captain. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And beneath that rank it says "serving at military post 3001 in

25 Belgrade"; right?

Page 2388

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. When you received this promotion to captain, were you actually

3 working in Belgrade?

4 A. No, I wasn't actually working in Belgrade.

5 Q. And where were you working at the time?

6 A. As I've already told you, I was working in Banja Luka.

7 Q. Do you know if other officers assigned to the 30th Personnel

8 Centre were promoted in this way by the Army of Yugoslavia?

9 A. Your Honours, I believe that it was all the same for everybody

10 who belonged to the 30th Personnel Centre.

11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document,

12 please. Under seal, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number under seal.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P397, under

16 seal.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 MR. SAXON:

19 Q. Mr. MP-005, when you were assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre,

20 did you receive pension benefits from the Army of Yugoslavia?

21 A. Would you please be so kind and rephrase your question. What do

22 you mean by saying "did you receive"?

23 Q. Fair point. Perhaps I can ask it this way: While you were

24 assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre, did you remain part of the pension

25 plan of the Army of Yugoslavia?

Page 2389

1 A. Yes, Your Honours.

2 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is 65 ter 453,

3 please, and can this document not be published to the public.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 453, please.

5 MR. SAXON:

6 Q. Mr. MP-005, the first page of this document, it's dated 21st of

7 November, 1995. The military post of the sender is not legible, but do

8 you recognise this document?

9 A. Your Honours, yes, I do recognise this document.

10 Q. Who issued this document?

11 A. Your Honours, it's rather illegible, the letters are really

12 small, I can't see very well.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe it would be fair if the witness

15 was shown the second page of the B/C/S version of this document.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Or preferably the end of the document.

17 MR. SAXON: No, that's not true -- well, that's -- it would fine

18 to show the second page, Your Honour. This document actually has several

19 page, I believe.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was issued by the

21 military post 7353 Banja Luka.

22 MR. SAXON: Can we move back to the first page, please.

23 Q. And it says at the beginning on the first page below military

24 post 7353: "Pursuant to Article 156, paragraph 1, and Article 157 of the

25 law on the Yugoslav Army, in the case regarding determination of the

Page 2390

1 pensionable years of service for" and then we see your name.

2 Are you able to read the numbers that are below the word

3 "decision"?

4 A. Yes, but with difficulty.

5 Q. Do you see under number 1 where it says "pensionable years of

6 service," and then we see for you there are three rows of numbers, and

7 the second row under "period of service" says from 6 April 1992 to

8 10 November 1993. Do you see that?

9 A. I do, Your Honours.

10 Q. And if you turn your attention a few columns to the right, you

11 see a column that's called "service multiplier." Do you see that?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. And in that second row in the column "service multiplier," we see

14 12/24. Can you tell us what that stands for?

15 A. Your Honours, this means that the pensionable years for that

16 period are doubled. In other words, for working 12 months, you are

17 entitled to 24 pensionable months.

18 Q. And why were the years doubled for you for this period of time?

19 A. Your Honours, in my opinion, this is due to the fact that the war

20 started and the conditions of work were aggravated by the war in Bosnia.

21 MR. SAXON: Can we turn now to the second page in both the

22 English and the B/C/S version.

23 Q. Witness, the paragraph at the top of the second page says: "This

24 decision is final in the administrative procedure and cannot be appealed.

25 An administrative suit contesting this decision can be filed within 30

Page 2391

1 days of its delivery. The application to file suit is submitted in

2 duplicate to the Supreme Military Court in Belgrade directly or by

3 registered mail." Have you been following me?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That Supreme Military Court in Belgrade, what army did that court

6 belong to?

7 A. In my opinion, it belonged to the Army of Yugoslavia.

8 MR. SAXON: Can we turn to page 3 in this exhibit, please, in

9 both languages.

10 Q. This page is a bit easier to read. It says at the top, "military

11 post number 3001." The complete date is not legible, but we see 1995

12 Belgrade. A little further down we see a personal number, was that your

13 personal number?

14 A. Yes, that's my personal number.

15 Q. And we see -- this is entitled, "Years of Service Form 2." And

16 then we see the words "military post 7353." And the same language

17 referring to Article 56 and Article 157 of the law on the Yugoslav Army

18 in the case regarding determination of the pensionable years for you.

19 Then below that we see decision, and the number 1, pensionable years of

20 service, we see your name there. And again, we see a table there again

21 with three time periods, the second time period 6 April 1992, and 10

22 November 1993. And moving across under "service multiplier," we see

23 again 12/24.

24 One question that I have is, for example, in the first column of

25 numbers we see 21 July, looks like 1990, to 5 April 1992. And the

Page 2392

1 service multiplier is different, it's 12/15. And then we go a line

2 below, from 6 April 1992 to 10 November 1993, then the service multiplier

3 becomes 12/24. Can you tell us why your service, in pensionable terms,

4 was broken up like that?

5 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, up to the 6th of April or before

6 the 6th of April, it was peacetime, and after the 6th of April, the time

7 is doubled in the same way as it is during the state of war.

8 MR. SAXON: Could we turn to the next page, please.

9 Q. In that paragraph at the top of this page, we see the same

10 language about applications to file suit should be submitted to the

11 Supreme Military Court in Belgrade. Do you see that?

12 A. I do, Your Honours.

13 Q. And then below that paragraph we see a seal or a stamp. Are you

14 able to read what that stamp says?

15 A. Your Honours, it says "Military post number 3001 Belgrade."

16 Q. And then it is signed, it says, "officer in charge, Colonel

17 Ljubomir Lalic." Was that name familiar to you?

18 A. Your Honours, only through the documents that I received from the

19 30th Personnel Centre.

20 Q. So had you seen Colonel Lalic's signature on other documents from

21 the 30th Personnel Centre?

22 A. Yes, Your Honours, I did see his name, or rather, signature on

23 other documents that originated from the 30th Personnel Centre.

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I note the time, would this be a good

25 moment to break?

Page 2393

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It would be a good moment if it's convenient for

2 you. We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00. Court

3 adjourned.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

7 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I believe that we remain in public

8 session; is that correct? I see Ms. Taseva nodding her head. Thank you.

9 If we can turn now to the next page of this exhibit, please, in

10 both languages. I think we just went in reverse. That's correct. Thank

11 you.

12 Q. Mr. MP-005, do you recognise this document?

13 A. Your Honours, yes, I recognise this document.

14 Q. And what is this document?

15 A. This is the following document on the basis of which the work

16 years are calculated and they are doubled, and it comes from the Army of

17 Yugoslavia from the sector for recruitment, mobilisation, and systems

18 issues.

19 Q. It says that it's a decision, then we see your name, from

20 military post 3001 in Belgrade, whereby you are granted the right to

21 double insurable years of service for the period from 6 April 1992 to

22 10 November 1993. And then in statement of reasons, it says that on a

23 particular date you filed a request asking to be granted the right to

24 double years of insurable service for that period of time.

25 Who did you file this request with?

Page 2394

1 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, the request was submitted to the

2 30th Personnel Centre.

3 Q. Were you the only officer assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre

4 who requested the right to double years of insurable service for time

5 spent serving with the Army of Republika Srpska?

6 A. Your Honours, from what I can remember, the request was submitted

7 collectively for a number of personnels and for -- for a number of

8 personnel and for a number of units at the level of battalion and

9 regiment.

10 Q. And again, at the bottom of the page, do you see who signs this

11 document?

12 A. Your Honours, the document was signed by Colonel Ljubomir Lalic,

13 and this was done by authority of the chief.

14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon, I notice we are in open session and the

16 witness's name does appear on this document.

17 MR. SAXON: That is correct, Your Honour. I thought I had asked

18 that this exhibit not be published to the public.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You --

20 MR. SAXON: If I made a mistake though, that's always possible.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't remember hearing you ask for that

22 specifically, but you may very well have. I don't know.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It has not been published.

25 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

Page 2395

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, then at this time I would seek to tender

3 65 ter 453 under seal, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 453 is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number under seal.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P398, under

7 seal.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. SAXON:

10 Q. Mr. MP-005, when you were assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre,

11 who paid your salary?

12 A. Your Honours, the salaries were paid by the Army of Yugoslavia.

13 Q. But when you were serving with the Army of Republika Srpska in

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina, how did you manage to receive your salary then?

15 A. Your Honours, from the beginning of the war, the financial

16 officer of the unit at the corps level would go to Belgrade to pick up

17 the salaries for members of the 30th Personnel Centre who were in his

18 unit. And when he would come back, he would distribute the salaries.

19 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness 65 ter 8398, please.

20 Q. Mr. MP-005, this is a document from the General Staff of the Army

21 of Republika Srpska. It's dated the 3rd of February, 1994. And we see

22 in the introduction -- actually, I should say, the document is a decision

23 on compensation for military service in difficult (special) conditions.

24 In the introductory paragraph, we see that this decision is issued

25 pursuant to Article 26 of the rules on travel and other expenses in the

Page 2396

1 Yugoslav Army, and in connection with the implementation of the decision

2 identifying tasks and territory of service under difficult or special

3 conditions, the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, the sector for

4 operations. It was dated 19 October 1993. And in paragraph 1 of the

5 decision we are told that all professional officers and NCOs, first of

6 all, can you tell us what NCO stands for, please?

7 A. Your Honours, an NCO is a military officer or personnel who

8 completed military school and is promoted to the rank of sergeant, if

9 this is enough.

10 Q. Thank you. So we see after NCOs, "civilians in the army,

11 officers, NCOs and contract soldiers serving in the Yugoslav Army,

12 deployed in the Army of Republika Srpska, are entitled to compensation

13 for carrying out military service in difficult (special) conditions."

14 Are you following me?

15 A. Yes, yes, I am.

16 Q. Before I go any further, what was a contract soldier? What does

17 that term mean?

18 A. Your Honours, from what I know, a contract soldier is a person

19 who signs a contract to perform tasks and duties in the military for a

20 specific amount of time. A soldier is a soldier; except in this case, we

21 are talking about a professional soldier because he is working under

22 contract.

23 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 2 indicates that, "The level of

24 compensation in percentage points is calculated as follows: " And it

25 tells us that it will be 20 percent for all professional officers and

Page 2397

1 NCOs serving in the Army of Republika Srpska -- the General Staff of the

2 Army of Republika Srpska, the air force, the anti-aircraft defence

3 command, and then it lists a series of additional categories of officers

4 serving in different parts of the Army of Republika Srpska.

5 Second half of paragraph 2 we see certain percentages of

6 compensation that will be paid to particular officers serving in

7 particular units. Have you been following me?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. MP-005, while you were serving in the Army of Republika

10 Srpska, did you receive some salary increases?

11 A. Yes, Your Honours. It's just that I would like to say that this

12 was a time of high inflation so that some increase in salary did not

13 actually mean any real improvement in real life.

14 Q. And even given that situation, were these additional -- was this

15 additional compensation, was it important to you?

16 A. Your Honours, any increase in salary is a good thing, and is an

17 improvement, but let me repeat once again what kind of a time that was

18 and the inflationary trends were such that during the day the value of

19 money would drop even 20 times.

20 MR. SAXON: Could we turn to the next page, please.

21 Q. And if you know, did officers in the Army of Republika Srpska who

22 were not assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre, did they receive these

23 salary increases, if you know?

24 A. Your Honours, as it is stated here, this decision pertains to

25 professional military personnel.

Page 2398

1 Q. I see that, but you did not answer my question. Let me repeat

2 it.

3 Did officers serving in the Army of Republika Srpska who were not

4 assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre receive these kinds of salary

5 increases, if you know?

6 A. Your Honours, from what I know, they did not.

7 Q. At the top of the next page we see that the percentage is a bit

8 lower, 15 percent for all contract soldiers, contract NCOs, civilians

9 serving in the army, and contract soldiers serving in the General Staff

10 of the Army of Republika Srpska. And I'm just wondering if you can help

11 us understand something here, were there civilians serving in the Army of

12 Republika Srpska that were assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre?

13 A. Your Honours, yes, as far as I know.

14 Q. And what kind of jobs or duties did these civilians perform with

15 the Army of Republika Srpska?

16 A. Your Honours, civilians employed in the military carried out a

17 broad range of tasks; drivers, cooks, these are also professional chefs,

18 but they would do these auxiliary tasks for the needs of the army, simply

19 speaking.

20 MR. SAXON: If we could direct our attention a bit down the page

21 to paragraph 4, and it's pretty small in the B/C/S version, so maybe if

22 we could zoom in on the bottom half of that page, to make it easier for

23 the witness.

24 Q. And paragraph 4 tells us that: "Pursuant to Article 71 of the

25 rules on travel and other expenses in the Army of Yugoslavia, the

Page 2399

1 General Staff of -- the commander of the General Staff of the Army of

2 Republika Srpska and other commanders will adopt decisions regarding

3 compensation for persons who meet the conditions in this decision." It

4 then tells us that the deadline for adopting this decision and submitting

5 it to the accounting centre of the Ministry of Defence, and it says Army

6 of Yugoslavia, is 28 February 1994.

7 Are you familiar with -- strike that.

8 Can you recall whether after February 1994 you received

9 additional compensation?

10 A. Your Honours, from what I know, there were these increases. It

11 was a normal thing, but I say again, and I don't want to repeat it, but

12 the inflation rate at the time was pretty high so I don't want to repeat

13 the same sentence one more time.

14 Q. All right. The last paragraph, paragraph 7, of this page, tells

15 us that, "Personnel organs in the command will adopt decisions ex officio

16 to abolish the right to compensation for all persons who leave the

17 Army of Republika Srpska." And then they should submit such decisions to

18 the RC MO VJ. Can you tell us what RC MO VJ stands for?

19 A. Your Honours, from what I know, this is some kind of computer

20 centre of the Army of Yugoslavia.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not the accounting centre of the Ministry of

22 Defence as mentioned in paragraph 4?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it could be a

24 computer centre or an accounting centre. It would come to the same

25 thing, some sort of processing centre. I'm not sure about the exact

Page 2400

1 term. It would go to this centre in order to maybe have some benefits

2 suspended or added. It's a place where all of these changes would be

3 recorded. I apologise, it would sound perhaps silly for me to say that,

4 but if somebody had already left the army, then it would not be good for

5 them to be still receiving the benefits or to be receiving some benefits

6 that they do not have a right to receive.

7 MR. SAXON: And we see this document was signed by

8 Lieutenant-General Mladic. Your Honours, I would seek to tender this

9 document. I don't believe it needs to be under seal.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 8398 is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P399.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

14 MR. SAXON:

15 Q. Witness MP-005, were you ever issued a identification document by

16 the Army of Republika Srpska?

17 A. Your Honours, after the war finished in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

18 the Army of Republika Srpska issued military booklets of the Army of

19 Republika Srpska.

20 MR. SAXON: Without showing it to the public, can we please show

21 the witness 65 ter number 459, please.

22 Q. And do you recognise this, Mr. MP-005?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. What is this?

25 A. This is the military ID of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Page 2401

1 MR. SAXON: Can we please go to the next page in both languages,

2 please.

3 Q. Witness, we see your name on this document and your personal

4 number. We see when the document was issued. It was issued in 1996. Do

5 you see that?

6 A. Yes, I do, Your Honours.

7 Q. Why was this military document -- military identification of the

8 Army of Republika Srpska issued to you after the war? After the war

9 ended?

10 A. Your Honours, from what I know, in that period the IFOR [Realtime

11 transcript read in error "I4"] had the authority to monitor military

12 personnel, and to tell you the truth, if somebody would be checking my ID

13 and I were to show him my old military ID, then they would see the

14 Belgrade stamp and that is why these IDs were introduced.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is IFOR? Can you spell it, please. The

16 transcript wrote "I" and a "4."

17 MR. SAXON: Can I help, Your Honour?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if the witness can help, let him help us.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the

20 international peacekeeping force. International forces of the

21 organisation -- actually, I'm not sure about the term, how it goes in

22 English.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it spelled I-F-O-R?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

Page 2402

1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would ask that this

2 document be admitted under seal, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted under seal. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P400, under

6 seal.

7 MR. SAXON: Can we please move into private session, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

9 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. SAXON: And can we please see what is 65 ter number 367,

13 please. Your Honour, I asked to go into private session because this

14 document currently, to the best of my knowledge, is not subject to

15 protective measures. But having said that, the Prosecution believes that

16 additional protective measures may be requested in the near future for

17 certain Prosecution exhibits, and this document might be one of them. So

18 out of an abundance of caution, I prefer to work with this in private

19 session right now.

20 Q. Witness, this document comes from the General Staff of the

21 Yugoslav Army, sector for reinforcement and mobilisation and systematic

22 matters, the personnel department. And we see in the first paragraph

23 that it refers to a Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic, in which he requests

24 to be granted pension entitlement rights whereby each year served in the

25 army would count double towards his pension. Do you see that?

Page 2403

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Do you know who Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic was?

3 A. Your Honours, the names rings a bell. I've heard of him, but I

4 don't know him personally.

5 Q. Where it says the Lieutenant-Colonel is requesting for each year

6 served in the army to count double towards his pension, is this similar

7 to the request that you made?

8 A. Yes, Your Honours. And let me just correct one thing, this is a

9 decision.

10 Q. Yes, thank you. And the decision says that the right to

11 exceptional pension entitlement is granted starting from 15 December

12 1992. And then below that we see the statement of reasons, and we see

13 that when he made this request on 13 February 1999 [sic], Mr. Pandurevic

14 was assigned to the military post 3001 in Belgrade. Are you following

15 me?

16 A. Yes, I am.

17 Q. And again, in the last paragraph it tells us that motions

18 regarding this decision can be brought to the Supreme Military Court in

19 Belgrade. Was that similar to the documents pertaining to your double

20 pension rights?

21 A. Your Honours, it is a similar document. A document of a nature

22 similar to the one that we saw before.

23 Q. We see at the bottom, although we don't see a signature, we see

24 the words, "On authority of the chief, Colonel Ljubomir Lalic." But to

25 the right of that, we see an abbreviation, CAOP. Can you tell us what

Page 2404

1 that stands for, please?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mean to the left of it?

3 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Yes, to the left

4 of it.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you said 13 February 1999, you meant to

6 say 1995, much earlier at line 7, page 59.

7 MR. SAXON: Clearly I'm getting tired, Your Honour. You are

8 absolutely right.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like us to break?

10 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour, absolutely not.

11 Q. Can you tell us, please, what does the abbreviation CAOP stand

12 for?

13 A. Your Honours, on the left-hand side below "delivered to," I

14 believe that this abbreviation stands for the Centre for Automatic Data

15 Processing.

16 Q. Was that centre part of the Army of Yugoslavia?

17 A. Your Honours, I believe so.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document

19 under seal, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have two objections

22 to this document. The first one is the authenticity of the document, and

23 the second objection is that the Prosecution has not taken into account

24 Article 27, i.e., establishing a link between the document and the

25 testimony. If you compare this one with the previous one, you will see

Page 2405

1 that it does not bear the same stamp as we saw before, and there's no

2 log-in. I did not have any objections to the previous documents, the

3 form is identical, but this one is in handwriting and I can only assume

4 that this is a request. However, this document doesn't show clearly that

5 any decision has been made based on this document.

6 Second of all, although the witness did confirm that the document

7 is similar to the one that we saw before and that referred to him, the

8 list of questions that Mr. Saxon put to the witness or could have put to

9 the witness with regards to the left-hand side -- we are talking about

10 identical letters. I don't see that the Prosecutor has established any

11 link that is required according to paragraph 27 of the directive between

12 this document and the testimony save for the fact that the witness heard

13 of the existence of this person. However, I don't believe that this is

14 an adequate way to introduce a document of this nature through this

15 particular witness.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this document bears the same -- the name

18 of the same person at the bottom as similar documents pertaining to this

19 witness that have already been admitted today. It refers to the -- I

20 believe, yes, it refers to the same articles of the law of the Yugoslav

21 Army as the documents that pertained to this witness. It's coming from

22 the same branch of the Army of Yugoslavia as the documents that were

23 admitted previously pertaining to this witness. And it covers the same

24 topic and the same process as the documents that were previously admitted

25 pertaining to this witness.

Page 2406

1 Your Honour, the guidelines tell us that a stamp nor a signature

2 are requirements for the admission into evidence of a document. It seems

3 to me, Your Honour, any concerns about the authenticity or the lack of

4 numbers written at the top should be matters of weight for the Chamber,

5 not for admissibility, that is there is enough indicia of authenticity to

6 admit this document at this time.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] When I referred to the guidelines, I

9 talked about Article 27 and that is tendering exhibits through the

10 witnesses, not the probative value of a document. And the Trial Chamber

11 said: [In English] "When one of the parties seek to admission of the

12 documents through the witness, it must demonstrate in the Trial Chamber

13 the relation between the witness and the document."

14 [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecutor has not

15 established any link between the document pertaining to another person

16 and this witness. By the way, Your Honours, we all know that the person

17 referred to herein as the signatory of this document is on the witness

18 list of the OTP, so he would be better suited to -- for tendering this

19 document, although it is up to the Trial Chamber and the OTP to decide

20 how to do it, of course.

21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if Mr. Lukic's interpretation of

22 paragraph 27 of the guidelines is correct, then the possibility of

23 admission of evidence in this trial is going to be very narrow and

24 limited indeed. That paragraph says the tendering party must establish a

25 relationship between the witness and the document. It does not say that

Page 2407

1 the tendering party must establish a direct link between the witness and

2 the document. And so if I may say so, we have demonstrated, Your Honour,

3 the relationship between this witness and this document because this

4 witness was part of very similar process, Your Honour, that was going on

5 at this time.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Saxon. I am mindful of the last

7 sentence of that paragraph which says the Trial Chamber may not allow the

8 admission through the particular witness of documents which lack such

9 relationship, but what I did want to find out from you is whether you

10 have any specific responses to the specific points of objection that were

11 raised by Mr. Lukic. I didn't hear you address any one of them. One was

12 the lack of a stamp. Two, was that this document was handwriting, I

13 guess he means handwritten where in the original the particulars of the

14 applicant are handwritten. And three, he says it does not have a log-in.

15 Now, I don't know what a log-in is.

16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I believe I did address the lack of

17 stamp. Mr. Lukic is right, there is no stamp here, there is no

18 signature, but the Trial Chamber's own guidelines say that that is not an

19 absolute requirement for admission into evidence. Mr. Lukic is right

20 that part of this document has been filled in by hand. In the

21 Prosecution's -- I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not so that the previous document that

23 related to the witness, the original at least, had the actual signature

24 of Mr. Lalic?

25 MR. SAXON: That is correct, Your Honour, yes.

Page 2408

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And this one doesn't seem to, and it says "on

2 authority of."

3 MR. SAXON: Agreed, Your Honour, yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would it harm you if we marked it for

5 identification, and I'm told this man is on your list of witnesses, maybe

6 you can confirm it.

7 MR. SAXON: He is, Your Honour, and very well, if that's the

8 Chamber's decision.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll then mark it for identification. May

10 it please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P401, marked

12 for identification.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is it under seal or not under seal?

14 MR. SAXON: Very much under seal, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very much under seal. Under seal,

16 Madam Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, under seal.

18 MR. SAXON: Can we move back into public session, please.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

23 MR. SAXON: Could we show the witness what is 65 ter number 5091.

24 Q. Mr. MP-005, this is another decision issued by the Yugoslav Army

25 Main Staff, the same department in the personnel administration. It's

Page 2409

1 dated the 9th of December, 1994. In the introductory paragraph we see

2 the same articles of the law of the Yugoslav Army referred to, and now we

3 see it refers to a request by a Colonel Jovo - I apologise for my

4 pronunciation - Kundacina in which he is asking that his pensionable

5 service be calculated double. Are you following me?

6 A. Yes, I am.

7 Q. And again, in the decision we see that this colonel is assigned

8 to military post 3001 in Belgrade, and it tells us that he is entitled to

9 have his service calculated double as of the 20th of May, 1992. Do you

10 know why the date 20 May 1992 could be significant?

11 A. Your Honours, to be honest I don't know. That's how it was

12 written, but I really don't have a clue why the date here is the 20th of

13 May. Maybe he arrived at that time. I don't know.

14 Q. And when you say "maybe he arrived at that time," he arrived

15 where?

16 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina or I really can't -- I don't know

17 exactly. However, I believe that this date is important in his personal

18 records, but why this date may be important, I really can't tell based on

19 this document.

20 Q. All right.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know of him?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

23 MR. SAXON:

24 Q. We see that the person writing this decision has determined that

25 the conditions regarding the entitlement to having one's service

Page 2410

1 calculated double are met. And then we see in the last paragraph --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which we are not able to see.

3 MR. SAXON: If we could scroll up in the B/C/S -- in both

4 versions, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Scroll up in the English as well, please. No, no.

6 MR. SAXON: You can see it now, Your Honour.

7 Q. And again, in the last paragraph we see that complaints should be

8 submitted to the Supreme Military Court in Belgrade. How does this

9 decision compare to the decision that you received about your pension

10 rights?

11 A. Your Honours, it's a very similar decision, a decision dealing

12 with the same issue, and that is service -- double calculated pensionable

13 years of service. The dates may differ due to the fact that not all the

14 units requested the time to be calculated from the same date, and it also

15 depended from -- and varied from one person to the next, on their

16 personal records that is.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But do you recognise that stamp on the original?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the stamp here -- can

19 this be scrolled up just a little? Now I can see it, yes. The stamp is

20 of the Army of Yugoslavia, signed by a Colonel Ljubomir Lalic, the same

21 person as on my document, very similar to this one.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Mr. Saxon.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be

24 admitted, please.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 2411

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly, I object based on

2 Article 27 of the guidelines. The witness says that he is not familiar

3 with the person, that he doesn't know anything about the dates in the

4 document. He is not a summary witness to be speaking about the contents

5 of the documents, he is a fact witness, and I don't see that it is

6 suitable to tender and introduce documents in this way.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, don't you accept that there is a

8 relationship between this document and the document tendered regarding

9 the witness himself? It's got the same stamp, it's identical except for

10 different particulars, signed by the same person, it comes from the same

11 office? And he has testified that there was a number of them who applied

12 for these benefits. This one is different from the previous one which we

13 marked for identification in that this one has a stamp and it's signed by

14 the officer.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I appreciate that, Your Honour. I

16 agree with regard to the authenticity of this document, I've never

17 objected to that. I only believe that the way I interpret the

18 guidelines, and we are also here to hear the correct interpretation, in

19 my view in order to establish a relationship between a witness and a

20 document, there should be some relationship established which would --

21 should be more than the witness given to read a document and recognizing

22 some things that all of us in the courtroom can recognise. We can all

23 compare signatures and stamps. I just can't see the necessary

24 relationship having been established. But if you see things differently,

25 it's a clear guidance to me that I should understand things differently

Page 2412

1 from now on.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do, Mr. Lukic, and I'll tell you what is the

3 difference. The difference is that this document in form and in

4 substance but for the particulars of the applicants is identical to his

5 own document. It comes from the same office and it -- and it is

6 different from the one marked for identification in that that one doesn't

7 have a stamp, doesn't have a signature of the author. I do think that

8 the interpretation in paragraph 27 of the guidelines which says show a

9 relationship, doesn't say this must be your document. It says show a

10 relationship, and I think there is a relationship. I think the objection

11 will be overruled.

12 The document will be admitted. May it be given an exhibit

13 number, please. Do you want it under seal?

14 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not necessarily under seal.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P402.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 MR. SAXON: Can we please go into private session, please.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move -- aren't we in

20 private session?

21 MR. SAXON: The last exhibit was discussed in open session,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. May the Chamber please move into private

24 session.

25 [Private session]

Page 2415

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Saxon.

5 MR. SAXON:

6 Q. Witness MP-005, could officers who were assigned to the

7 30th Personnel Centre and who were serving in the Army of Republika

8 Srpska, could they apply for citizenship in the Federal Republic of

9 Yugoslavia if they were not initially citizens of the Federal Republic of

10 Yugoslavia?

11 A. Your Honours, after the war, I can't give you the exact date, but

12 it was in 1997, every professional who belonged to the 30th Personnel

13 Centre --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphones please be switched off if

15 they're not used. We can't hear the witness.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we make sure that we have switched off all

17 our microphones, those of us who are not speaking at that moment. Only

18 the witness must have his mic on.

19 Could you repeat your answer, please. The interpreters didn't

20 hear what you were saying, sir.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, after the end of the

22 war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, from the 30th Personnel Centre you could

23 request a certificate and you could take this certificate to report to a

24 municipality in Belgrade, and based on that, you could receive an ID, and

25 once you had your ID, then you could receive your citizenship based on

Page 2416

1 your ID.

2 MR. SAXON:

3 Q. Witness MP-005, you said that -- oh, I see.

4 MR. SAXON: Can we please see 65 ter number 612, please. It's a

5 little bit hard to see all of the English, but perhaps that is the best

6 we can do.

7 Q. This is a document from the 3rd Corps command, dated 25 November

8 1997. And it is -- it says at the top, "The regulation of Yugoslav

9 citizenship, information forwarded to command." And it describes, three

10 paragraphs down, how pursuant to the Law on Yugoslav Citizenship, to

11 allow professional military personnel and civilians to attain Yugoslav

12 citizenship. And then the instruction is to forward to all units the

13 extract of the Law on Yugoslav Citizenship, which refers to this

14 procedure. And then if you look at the bottom of the page, at least in

15 the English it's at the bottom of the page, it says that, "PVL and

16 civilians serving in this military post will receive a certificate of

17 their service at the military post 3001 Belgrade based on their personal

18 requests submitted through their units."

19 First of all, can you tell us what the acronym PVL stands for?

20 A. Your Honours, PVL stands for professional servicemen. And CL

21 stands for civilian.

22 Q. Can you tell us, Witness MP-005, whether many officers serving in

23 the 30th Personnel Centre took advantage of this procedure, or just a

24 few, or none at all, if you know?

25 A. Your Honours, I believe that most of the people did use the

Page 2417

1 opportunity.

2 Q. If you were not assigned to the 30th Personnel Centre, did you

3 have this opportunity to obtain citizenship in the Federal Republic of

4 Yugoslavia?

5 A. Your Honours, only the professionals and civilians that belonged

6 to the 30th Personnel Centre could regulate their citizenship in this

7 way. For the others, there was no room or any other opportunity to do

8 that.

9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this now, please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object the relevance

12 of this document. I believe the document refers to a period which is

13 much after the end of combat activities, and what we are interested in is

14 the status of the members of the 30th Personnel Centre during the war,

15 and I believe that their status in 1997 is not relevant at all for this

16 indictment.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Saxon.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the relevance of this document is to the

19 systematic -- or to the systems in place, if I may say so, within the

20 30th Personnel Centre to take care of the officers and soldiers who were

21 assigned to that centre, and then serve time -- served in the Army of the

22 Republika Srpska. The fact that this comes after the indictment period,

23 Your Honour, is all the more telling, because it shows how even after the

24 war, well after the war, these systems were in place to make sure that

25 officers who served as part of the VJ in Bosnia and Herzegovina received

Page 2418

1 reward for that.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just ask a question to the witness.

3 Of what country were these people who made this application, who

4 made use of this law, citizens before they applied for Yugoslav

5 citizenship?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all these people were

7 in Bosnia-Herzegovina. In my opinion, there's no single country in the

8 world which would have payroll -- officers on their payroll who were not

9 its citizens. One of the main preconditions is for an officer to be a

10 citizen of that state in order to be on that state's payroll. And at

11 that time, as far as I can remember, and to be honest, there was

12 something said to the effect that if you didn't have a citizenship, if

13 you were not a citizen, you would not be entitled to any money or salary.

14 Something to that effect, if I can remember correctly.

15 If I may add something to that, please. Because these persons

16 did not receive salary from Republika Srpska and its government.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The first sentence of your answer said, "All these

18 people were in Bosnia-Herzegovina." What do you mean by that? Are you

19 trying to say that they were citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina now wanting

20 to become citizens of Yugoslavia, I suppose what is now called Serbia

21 now?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. At that time they were

23 the citizens of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The FRY?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2419

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: If they were citizens of the FRY, why were they

2 being given a right to apply for citizenship of the FRY? They are

3 already citizens.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was a matter of

5 getting dual citizenship. As far as I know, later through some special

6 connections, this term was introduced about dual citizenship between

7 Serbia and Republika Srpska.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: So what you are actually saying is, they were

9 citizens of Republika Srpska who now sought citizenship of the FRY; is

10 that what you are saying?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina, I cannot assert -- well, they all probably had citizenship

13 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Republika Srpska, but they received their

14 salaries from Yugoslavia, so in order to avoid them losing their salary

15 in that context, they sought citizenship from the Federal Republic of

16 Yugoslavia

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled. Shall we give -- the

19 document is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P403.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

22 MR. SAXON: I see the time, Your Honour, shall we stop for the

23 day?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess it is convenient to do so.

25 Sir, we are not done with you. You will have to come back

Page 2420

1 tomorrow morning, not in the afternoon this time, but in the morning in

2 courtroom II at 9.00. And before you go, let me just remind you that now

3 that you are in the witness stand and until you are excused from

4 testifying in court, you may not discuss this case with anybody. Okay.

5 Not even with your lawyers. Okay?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what you say,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Court adjourned to tomorrow

9 9.00 in courtroom II.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of

12 December, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.