Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2943

 1                           Thursday, 29 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, will you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Morning Your Honours.  Good morning everyone in

 8     and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor

 9     versus Momcilo Perisic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Could we have appearances

11     for the day, starting with the Prosecution, please.

12             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

13     everybody in and around the courtroom.  Firstly, Your Honours, our

14     apologies for the slight delay this morning our witness was placed in a

15     room nowhere near this courtroom, and it just took us a little while to

16     track him down.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Mark Harmon, Barney Thomas, Bronagh McKenna,

19     Salvatore Cannata, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  And good

22     morning to everyone in the courtroom.  For the Defence of Mr. Perisic

23     today in the courtroom we have Mr. Milos Androvic, Daniela Tasic,

24     Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic as his Defence.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Just before you call the

Page 2944

 1     witness, a small administrative matter by way of corrigendum to the oral

 2     decision that was given the other day on the deposition, just to say that

 3     apparently during the deposition three questions -- on three occasions

 4     the Defence objected to the Prosecution's questions.  And just for the

 5     record, just to say that after a careful review of the transcript, the

 6     Trial Chamber overrules those objections.

 7             Thank you so much.  May you call the witness.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  That you have, Your Honours.  The Prosecution calls

 9     Major Overgard, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is he lost again?

11             MR. THOMAS:  I was just thinking, Your Honours, I haven't

12     actually sighted him myself this morning.  But apparently he has been

13     found.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you say so.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, if I could just step outside and

16     make -- we have him.  Thank you.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, sir.

19             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Will you please make the declaration.

21             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

22     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS: THORBJORN OVERGARD

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may now be seated.

25     Mr. Thomas.

Page 2945

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Thomas:

 3        Q.   Major, can you begin please by giving us your full name and date

 4     of birth?

 5        A.   My name is Thorbjorn Overgard, and I'm a major in the Norwegian

 6     air force.

 7        Q.   Your date of birth, Major?

 8        A.   13th of April, 1958.

 9        Q.   Sir, did you testify about certain matters related to Sarajevo

10     and the Dragomir Milosevic case?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12             MR. THOMAS:  I wonder, Your Honours, if we could please have

13     Exhibit 65 ter 09386 on the screen.  And Your Honours, I should have

14     signalled Major Overgard is a 92 ter witness.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. THOMAS:

17        Q.   Major, you'll see there at the top of the page that the testimony

18     is dated the 18th of January, 2007.

19             MR. THOMAS:  I wonder if we could turn over the next page,

20     please, Madam Registrar.  And scroll down and the next page, please.

21        Q.   Now, major, do you recognise that as a transcript of your

22     testimony given in the Dragomir Milosevic case on the 18th

23     of January 2007?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did you have the opportunity to review that transcript of

Page 2946

 1     testimony yesterday?

 2        A.   I did yesterday, yes.

 3        Q.   And is it true and correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions this morning, would you

 6     answer in the same way?

 7        A.   Yes, I would.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If that could please be

 9     tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  From which page to which -- from this page to

11     where?

12             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, the entire exhibit is the redacted

13     version of the transcript for that day.  The pages themselves have been

14     notified in the 92 notice which has been filed with the Chamber.  The

15     non-relevant parts have been redacted so that all that remains is the

16     relevant testimony of Major Overgard.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  That exhibit is admitted.  May

18     it please be given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P479.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23        Q.   Major, did you also testify on the following day, the 19th of

24     January?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 2947

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Could we please have, Your Honours, Exhibit

 2     65 ter 09387 on the screen, please.

 3        Q.   Major, again we can see the date of Friday the 19th of January on

 4     the top of the page.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  If we could please go to the next page,

 6     Your Honours.

 7        Q.   And do you see there the commencement of your cross-examination?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 9        Q.   Again, Major, did you have the opportunity to review this

10     transcript of your testimony yesterday?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Is it true and correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today, would you answer

15     in the same way?

16        A.   Yes, I will.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Again if that redacted

18     transcript could please be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is tendered, and it is admitted.  May it please

20     be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P480.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank you,

24     Madam Registrar.

25        Q.   Now, in addition to the two transcripts, Major, did you also

Page 2948

 1     earlier provide a statement to OTP, Office of the Prosecutor

 2     investigators in April 1996?

 3        A.   Yes, I did, a couple of times I think I gave in Bura.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  Can we begin please with 65 ter 0388 [sic], please.

 6        Q.   Major, do you recognise -- wait for the -- Major, do you

 7     recognise that as the statement that you provided to OTP officials in

 8     1996?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Again, did you review the contents of that statement yesterday?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is it true and correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Again, if you were asked about the same matters referred to in

15     that statement, would you answer in the same way?

16        A.   Yes, I will.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If that statement, which a

18     redacted statement could also be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  What 65 ter number did you give

20     it?

21             MR. THOMAS:  It is 09388, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  09388.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P481.

24             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank you, Madam

25     Registrar.

Page 2949

 1        Q.   Finally, Major, in preparation for your testimony in the

 2     D. Milosevic case, did you provide some limited further information to

 3     OTP investigators?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  If we could please have, Your Honours, 65 ter

 6     number 09389 on the screen.

 7        Q.   Major, do you recognise that as a record of the remarks that you

 8     made prior to your testimony in the D. Milosevic case?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   Again, did you have the opportunity to review that document

11     yesterday?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Are the contents true and correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And if you were asked about those matters again today, would your

16     answers be the same?

17        A.   They would be the same answers.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Major.  Your Honours, could we please

19     tender that as an exhibit also.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

21     number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P482.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, if I may be permitted, I have a short

24     summary of the testimony and remarks contained in that statement which

25     I'd like to read into the record at this stage.

Page 2950

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3             Major Overgard was posted to Sarajevo as a United Nations

 4     Military Observer, UNMO, during the period from late October 1994 to

 5     1 May, 1995.  After an initial posting for around ten days and an area

 6     held by VRS forces, he was posted to Hrasnica within territory held by

 7     the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He remained there until 1 May, 1995.

 8             During his time in Hrasnica, Major Overgard and his team

 9     investigated many shelling and sniping incidents.  During his time there,

10     there were casualties almost every day, most of them civilian.  The

11     greatest casualties occurred during November and December, 1994, and

12     April 1995.

13             Of all the shelling and sniping investigations undertaken by

14     Major Overgard and his team during the six month period in Hrasnica,

15     identified VRS-held territory as the source of fire.  Most of the

16     shelling incidents investigated by Major Overgard involved civilian

17     victims.  All the incidents of sniping investigated by Major Overgard

18     involved civilian victims.

19             The VRS had mortar positions between Ilidza and Blazuj and in the

20     area of the Lukavica barracks.  It was mainly from these two directions

21     that Hrasnica, including the areas of Butmir and Sokolovic were shelled.

22     The centre of Hrasnica was a residential civilian area with no military

23     installations.

24             Sniping from Butmir to came from Ilidza and the Famos factory.

25     There was regular shelling and sniping of civilians using the road by

Page 2951

 1     forces of the VRS and Ilidza.  There was also a lot of sniping of

 2     civilians using a bridge at Butmir by those VRS forces.

 3             Major Overgard estimates that during his time in Hrasnica, 30

 4     to 40 civilians were killed as a result of the sniping and shelling

 5     incidents he investigated alone.

 6             Thank you, Your Honours, and finally there are some matters

 7     raised in the 92 ter materials that have been provided which I'd like to

 8     ask some questions on to clarify.  They fall into two categories.

 9             Firstly a number of occasions which I'd like Major Overgard to

10     demonstrate for us on a map; and secondly to clarify some comments he has

11     made about air-bombs.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I wonder, Your Honours, if

14     we could please have Exhibit P439 up on the screen.  And it is map number

15     8 in the court binder.

16        Q.   Major, in your testimony and in your statements, you mention a

17     number of different locations in Sarajevo, locations where you were

18     posted, locations where civilians were targeted by VRS forces, and the

19     location of VRS forces.  And what I'd like to do with you is to just

20     identify some of those locations you speak of in your previous testimony,

21     and in your statements, and identify those on this map.

22             What you see here is a map of Sarajevo.  What we can do with the

23     technology that we have is to enlarge this map.

24             MR. THOMAS:  And Your Honours, if we could just, thank you,

25     enlarge the -- if we could scroll down just a fraction and scroll to the

Page 2952

 1     left just a fraction.  A little more.

 2        Q.   First of all, Major, do you recognise what is shown on the map?

 3        A.   Yes, it's from the airport and south Hrasnica area in the foot of

 4     Igman mountain.

 5        Q.   All right.  First of all the airport that you just mentioned

 6     which is referred to in your statement, is that -- I wonder if

 7     Mr. Usher -- Madam Usher, if we could provide the Major with the

 8     electronic pen.  If you could just draw a line along the runway of the

 9     airport, please?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you, and maybe mark that with the letter A.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Can you make that A a little bit clearer.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, first of all, you mentioned that your -- when

16     you first arrived in Sarajevo, Major, you were posted in VRS territory at

17     a location known to UNMOs as Sierra Whiskey 1?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you mark on that map where Sierra Whiskey 1 was?

20        A.   If I'm correct I believe it was in this area they had a team

21     location.

22        Q.   All right.  Could you mark that please with SW1.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   All right.  You say in your testimony that you were there for a

25     period of ten days or so before you were moved to a second location,

Page 2953

 1     Sierra Sierra 2?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you mark, please, for us where Sierra Sierra 2 was?

 4        A.   River comes down, okay, so here.

 5        Q.   And the settlement in which we see Sierra Sierra 2, is that

 6     Hrasnica?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Hrasnica was territory held by the ABiH?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the area you've marked as Sierra Whiskey 1 was territory held

11     by the VRS; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, it was.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Your Honours, could we first produce that marked map

14     as a Prosecution exhibit.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The map is admitted.  May it please be given an

16     exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P440 [sic].

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank you,

20     Madam Registrar.  Sorry the exhibit number?  440.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is 440 or 483.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It's 483, I apologise, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             MR. THOMAS:  Could we please go back to a blank version of the

25     map which is P439, Your Honours.

Page 2954

 1        Q.   Major, you then mention a number of areas where civilians were

 2     targeted or at least shelled and sniped by VRS forces.  The first of

 3     those that I'd like to talk about is the Igman Road.  Can you draw a line

 4     for us please, along the Igman Road?

 5        A.   The road comes here.

 6        Q.   Is there an area along that road that was more susceptible to

 7     shelling and sniping than any other part of the road?

 8        A.   Well, the lower part here, you can see from this big turn up here

 9     and down longwards, there were direct missile contacts to the Ilidza area

10     there was heavy shelling, sniping, and shooting to that area.

11        Q.   All right.  Would you please mark that line with IR.

12        A.   [Marks] Okay.

13        Q.   And is this the road that you also refer to in your testimony or

14     statements as "the blue road" or the "convoy road"?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   You also describe in addition to Hrasnica being shelled and

17     sniped, an area called Butmir?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you see that on the map?

20        A.   Yes.  Has to be, it's a bit here, so it has to be this area here.

21        Q.   All right.  Could you mark that with a B, please.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   You talk about the bridge and civilians being shot on the bridge

24     as they entered Sarajevo.  Can you see the bridge on the map?

25        A.   I believe the bridge is the one marked here.

Page 2955

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   You also mention an area that was targeted called Sokolovic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you see that on the map?

 6        A.   I think it's more to the right.  I'm not sure anymore about the

 7     precise location of Sokolovic.

 8        Q.   When you say to the right, to the right of where?

 9        A.   The right on the map.  The right on the side of the airport.

10        Q.   To the right of the airport at some point?

11        A.   Yeah, yeah.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Could you circle Hrasnica for us?

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And maybe put an H next to that.

15        A.   [Marks]

16             MR. THOMAS:  And Your Honours, could we please tender that as a

17     Prosecution exhibit.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so admitted.  May it please be given an

19     exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that is Exhibit P484.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank you,

23     Madam Registrar.  And to a blank version of the map one more time,

24     please.  P439.

25        Q.   This time, Major, I want to talk about the VRS positions that you

Page 2956

 1     referred to in your testimony and in your statements.  Firstly, you

 2     describe the source of a lot of the shelling and sniping as being Ilidza.

 3     Can you mark Ilidza for us on that map?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You also describe an area called Blazuj.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do we see that on the map as well?

 8        A.   We can say Blazuj is this area here, where the team location was

 9     for Sierra Whiskey 1.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You also describe some sniping as coming from the

11     Famos factory, or the area of the Famos factory?

12        A.   Yes, it was this area.

13        Q.   Is the Famos factory actually that collection of dark buildings?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   It is?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You mention also firing from the Lukavica barracks?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do we see those on the map, or do we need to move the map?

20        A.   They are somewhere in this area.  I do not remember the exact

21     position.

22        Q.   All right.  Could you -- we'll need to mark those so that we can

23     refer to those later.  Could you please put an LB next to that line that

24     you've just drawn?

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 2957

 1        Q.   Can you please put an F next to the marking around the Famos

 2     factory?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Can you please put an I around the marking you've drawn to

 5     Ilidza?

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   And a B please around Blazuj.  Thank you.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9             MR. THOMAS:  And, Your Honours, can we please tender that map as

10     a Prosecution exhibit.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

12     number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours that will be Exhibit P485.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16        Q.   Finally, Major, during your testimony in Dragomir Milosevic, you

17     spoke of modified air-bombs.  Air-bombs with rocket motors attached to

18     them that were used by the VRS.  Firstly, can you tell us which forces or

19     from where, which VRS forces used those air-bombs?

20        A.   I experienced one of these bombs during my time in Hrasnica, and

21     it came from Ilidza and into a town 300 metres from our accommodation in

22     Hrasnica.

23        Q.   All right.  Thank you, Major, those are all the question that I

24     have for you at this stage.  My learned friend for the Defence may have

25     some questions for you if you kindly wait there.

Page 2958

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Thomas.

 2             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Overgard.  My name is

 5     Novak Lukic, and I am the Defence counsel for Mr. Perisic; and on behalf

 6     of his Defence now, I will put some questions to you.

 7             First of all, I'd like to ask you about your service and what

 8     kind of jobs you did while you were in Sarajevo.  If I understood

 9     correctly, you were part of the UNMO team in Sarajevo in charge of

10     investigating and establishing the sites where missiles fell including

11     infantry weapons and air-bombs, modified air-bombs; correct?

12        A.   Yes, I can say also mortars, mortar fire, artillery.  Missiles

13     are, you can say, kind of guided missile, and all the rest are bombs.

14        Q.   Earlier you attended a three week course in Finland for these --

15     to prepare for these activities; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And in the course among others, you learned about the analysis of

18     the matters or issues that you were later to carry out or conduct, and

19     this included the effects or consequences or impacts of these

20     projectiles; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Before this course during your military service, you had never

23     been involved in criminal investigations, as it were, if I may put it in

24     general terms?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 2959

 1        Q.   When you arrived in the former Yugoslavia, you spent a few days

 2     in Zagreb to begin with, where you also attended a course about -- for

 3     about six days, but this course did not relate to this particular area of

 4     investigation; correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Do you recall what type of instruments did you have at your

 7     disposal when you would arrive at a site to investigate an incident?

 8        A.   Mostly we always had the compass to give the exact direction

 9     where we believe the mortar or the artillery piece came from.  It is a

10     summary of what you find when what angle hits the ground with, which side

11     of the crater the splints have gone into the ground, and you can find out

12     from where it fired.

13        Q.   As a layperson, I'd like to ask you this, is there any particular

14     instrument that can be used to establish the angle from which a

15     projectile or a shell is arriving?

16        A.   Not as I know that there are anything to give exact position, but

17     you can give a direction and from the angle also if you are very good at

18     it, find what distance approximately it's fired from.

19        Q.   Could you tell us on the basis of what you established the

20     distance from which the shell was fired?

21        A.   No, I can't give the exact distance.  I only in my reports

22     pointed at directions, and I never had the education to find correct

23     distance.

24        Q.   Was there anyone on your team who was an expert on determining

25     exactly the distance and not just the direction?

Page 2960

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   And when you decided on the direction that you supposed that that

 3     was where the projectile had come from, this was just in general terms.

 4     You could never establish with any kind of precision where it exactly

 5     came from; correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.  If you are not hearing outgoing bang, from that

 7     when it lands, you can say from where, but that was very seldom.

 8        Q.   For my better understanding, could you just explain to us what

 9     was more seldom, was it more seldom that you could see where a projectile

10     had been fired from; is that correct?

11        A.   Very seldom that we heard the outgoing, you could say bang then

12     and then could also identify a landing, an explosion from an artillery

13     piece or a mortar piece.  But it happened when we was close to the

14     confrontation line against Ilidza, and we could hear from the hill-side

15     behind the barracks in Ilidza; and we could hear come from there, and

16     then it landed somewhere inside our AOR.  And AOR is area of

17     responsibility.

18        Q.   You were frequently on site for these investigations together

19     with members of the local authorities, primarily the police, and I mean

20     the authorities of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

21        A.   We had also -- we worked together also with them but we did our

22     investigation, they did theirs, there were no cooperation but they were

23     given our conclusions and we always two UNMOs doing the investigation

24     together so there should be -- should not be any misunderstandings.

25        Q.   My question was not whether you worked together, but whether you

Page 2961

 1     were on site at the same time, whether you could observe how they did

 2     their job, whether they were there at the same time?  Just that, yes or

 3     no?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did the members of those teams who conducted investigations have

 6     some instruments that you did not have in their investigations?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Did they ever complain to you about your lack of expertise,

 9     perhaps?

10        A.   Never.

11        Q.   You wanted to offer them some expert assistance because you felt

12     that they were not as well trained as you were; correct?

13        A.   No, we did not offer them assistance.  We gave them the results

14     of our investigation.

15        Q.   But you thought that among them, there were also people who were

16     policemen, not necessarily professional, not necessarily professional

17     policemen, but people who had just been put through a course for

18     policemen?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.  We found that.

20        Q.   Do you agree with me, Mr. Overgard, that the most reliable method

21     in conducting an investigation properly, regardless of what the cause of

22     the accident is, is to leave everything as it is until the sight can be

23     thoroughly reviewed and observed?

24        A.   Yeah, can't do too much damage to a crater from an artillery

25     piece or a mortar.  You are just doing the observations.  We might also

Page 2962

 1     find the tail of the artillery piece in the crater, but that's all.

 2        Q.   Is crater analysis the only way that you can determine where a

 3     projectile had come from, the direction?

 4        A.   Yes, when it comes to artillery mortar firing, that's the only

 5     thing.

 6        Q.   Is it relevant in determining the direction whether a projectile

 7     had hit a hard surface or the ground or a wall or some other object?

 8        A.   Yes, of course.  If it hits a wall, you can only see the hole,

 9     and we will not have anything to investigate from to determine where it

10     come from.  It has to hit the ground whether it is hard ground or soft

11     ground, it's real not as long as the detonation has been there when it

12     hits, we will find a way.

13        Q.   So if I understood correctly, the direction can only be

14     determined if the crater is in the ground regardless of what type of

15     surface it is?

16        A.   Yes, that is for sure.  If it hits a roof, for instance, it might

17     not detonate; and from the angle when it stops in the roof or it goes

18     into some furniture inside, you can also find the direction without --

19     not on the ground, but that is when it's detonation has been there, it is

20     hard to find if you are not on the ground.

21        Q.   You also took advantage of eye-witnesses who would provide you

22     information about where they think the projectile had come from?

23        A.   Yeah, we took statements from witnesses.  Sometimes it was, I

24     can't give you numbers, but there's been a few occasions we had witnesses

25     telling us from where it was fired.  Especially is that when it comes to

Page 2963

 1     sniping we had to rely on witnesses because we had to know what direction

 2     the victim faced when it was hit, then to find out on the body from where

 3     the shot has been fired.

 4        Q.   Can you remember, speaking of the sniping incidents that you

 5     investigated, whether you -- when you arrived on site whether there were

 6     dead bodies there or whether you only could look at the dead bodies in

 7     the morgue?

 8        A.   We had both -- incidents of both.  We have sometimes we came

 9     early enough to see the bodies before they were transported to the

10     morgue, but we never inspected them before they came to the morgue.

11        Q.   I suppose that witness statements were interpreted to you by the

12     local interpreters who were in your team; correct?

13        A.   Yes, we had local interpreters in teams that always followed us.

14        Q.   While you were on the Sarajevo battle-field, did you ever -- were

15     you actually ever on site at the moment when the incident occurred, you

16     personally?

17        A.   No, not as I remember now.

18        Q.   So, when you arrived on site, the witnesses would introduce

19     themselves and then you would take statements from them; correct?

20        A.   Yes.  If we -- we asked around if anybody saw what happened, and

21     we got witnesses in.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up the same

23     map on the screen.  I believe it's P439, the blank exhibit.  Could we

24     have that on the screen.  And especially could we have the Hrasnica area

25     blown up.

Page 2964

 1             A bit more, please.  Very well, thank you.

 2        Q.   Could you please mark the building where your base was in

 3     Hrasnica, if you could just give us a general idea or would you like this

 4     to be blown up a bit more?

 5        A.   I think I'll manage.  Let me see.  We were somewhere around here.

 6     Just in the [indiscernible].

 7        Q.   Would you please put a number 1 next to this mark?

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   We also know that the command post of the 4th Motorised Brigade

10     of the BH Army was in Hrasnica as well.  Could you please show us if you

11     can where that location was?

12        A.   They had a location, a HQ in a big building, I believe it is this

13     one.

14        Q.   Could you please mark that with a 2.  Number 2.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   You also know that there was another command post there of a

17     BH Army unit of a lower level, which was also in Hrasnica; correct?

18     Would you please mark that spot as well?

19        A.   There was a company in the area of the confrontation line have to

20     be in somewhere here in this area here.

21        Q.   Could you please mark that with a 3.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Do you know that there was -- that the command post of the

24     155th Motorised Brigade of the BH Army was in Butmir, which was not too

25     far from your location?

Page 2965

 1        A.   I know that they said that they should be there, but I never was

 2     there myself.

 3        Q.   The locations that you marked, are those institutions, as it

 4     were, the HQs, they were on civilian premises; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   In view of the fact that you had meetings with a commander of the

 7     4th Motorised Brigade, did you know or do you know now how many men that

 8     brigade numbered?

 9        A.   I don't remember now.

10        Q.   If I were to tell you that it numbered anywhere between 3.000 to

11     3.500 men, would that help jar your memory?

12        A.   No, it will not because I never saw so many soldiers in Hrasnica.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would please like this map to be

15     entered into evidence.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

17     given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D33.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   During your work did you have any contacts with the corps HQ in

22     Sarajevo, with some man from the command of that corps?

23        A.   I don't remember now.

24        Q.   A few moments ago, at the request of my learned colleague

25     Mr. Thomas, you marked the road leading to Mount Igman.  Do you know

Page 2966

 1     whether that road was protected by BH Army units?

 2        A.   There were some positions and -- in that area, but you see where

 3     I marked the area 3, that was the area where they had some positions and

 4     there was some fire extension against Ilidza area.  That was the only

 5     position.  The road up to Igman, I drove it a lot of times myself, and

 6     never had -- there were no positions protecting the road.  It's late in

 7     1995, the French brigade had a position in the lower part of the road.

 8        Q.   Would you agree with me that Mount Igman was under the control of

 9     the BH Army during the conflict?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And would you also agree that the Igman Road was a line that

12     connected Sarajevo to the other parts of the territory that were under

13     the control of BH?

14        A.   It might be so, yes, they got their delivery of food and so on

15     coming down that road.  It came to Hrasnica and somehow they managed to

16     get it into Sarajevo.

17        Q.   Everything that came from Igman went via Hrasnica, right, towards

18     the parts of Sarajevo that were under the control of the BH Army; right?

19        A.   I have to believe that, yes.

20        Q.   You also know that all military assistance and aid, military

21     equipment, personnel arrived only along that road to Sarajevo to meet the

22     needs of the BH Army; right?

23        A.   I think if they had equipment, people, they were walking down the

24     mountain all over, I believe.

25        Q.   And then again went via Hrasnica; right?

Page 2967

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please still have this map

 3     here.  Another copy, because I'd like to ask the witness to mark

 4     something else, if he remembers, while the map is still there.

 5        Q.   At one point you saw a tunnel being dug by the Butmir airport.

 6     You saw that with your very own eyes.  Could that be marked on this map,

 7     the place where you saw the tunnel being dug?

 8        A.   Yeah.  I just can give a general area and had to be somewhere

 9     here.  I don't know the exact position anymore.

10        Q.   Could you please place number 1 there.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   When you saw that something was being dug there at that locality,

13     the local authorities told you that they were digging something there for

14     water supply purposes; right?

15        A.   Yes, there was some explanation; it could not be correct, so we

16     just waited when inspector regularly to see what was being done there.

17     But we were not, never allowed to stop in that area.

18        Q.   They did not let you stop in that area?

19        A.   No, they didn't.

20        Q.   When I say "they" --

21        A.   So the -- there was people in civilian clothes mostly doing the

22     work there, but they didn't want us to stop.

23        Q.   When I say "they," I mean the authorities of the Federation of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2968

 1        Q.   Later on you heard that a tunnel had been dug underneath the

 2     airport and that that was the route that was used for bringing people and

 3     equipment to the area that was under the control of the BH Army; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   While we still have map there, so that we don't have to go back

 6     to that again, do you see Kovaci on the map?  Could you please mark that

 7     with a number 2, or would you like us to zoom in on it?

 8        A.   A bit more in.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's going to delete.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, if this map will be

11     admitted into evidence, then I will ask for it to be enlarged.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then that map is admitted into evidence.

13     May it please be given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this marked map will be

15     Exhibit D35, and I would like to state for a record that I stated a

16     different number for the previous document, that should be D35 exhibit.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't quite understand what you are saying,

18     Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The Exhibit number assigned to the previous

20     document tendered by Mr. Lukic was given a number D33, where instead, it

21     should have been given a number Exhibit D34.  And the current map will

22     then be Exhibit D35.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to have the same

25     map, but could it please be enlarged a bit, rather the Hrasnica area.

Page 2969

 1     The left hand part of the map, that's what I'd like to deal with now.

 2     Could it go up a bit -- no, it's fine, thanks.

 3        Q.   I would just like us to mark two more locations Kovaci or rather

 4     the place where you saw the BH Army mortars, I'd like to ask you

 5     something about that, so could you show us where that was, where the four

 6     mortars were?

 7        A.   Well, there were some houses close, it has to be in this area

 8     here.  Doesn't look ...

 9        Q.   I think that this will do.

10        A.   In this area here somewhere.

11        Q.   Can you please put an M there.

12        A.   [Marks]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that the area called Kovaci?

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the M stands for?

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to put a question to

17     the witness.  I thought well, we were dealing with another topic but now

18     I'd like to put this question.

19        Q.   At one point when you toured the area, you saw four mortars of

20     the BH Army at this location; right?

21        A.   Yes.  They were after we had confronted the brigade with it, they

22     were removed.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now that we are dealing with this map, let me ask you

24     about another incident too.  The place where you saw a 17-year-old girl

25     being hit by sniper fire in Sokolovic, can that be shown on this map or

Page 2970

 1     do we need another map?

 2        A.   I think I can see that, that was somewhere along this road here,

 3     in this particular -- in this area, I believe it was.

 4        Q.   Could you please put the letter S there.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you about that incident specifically.  You

 7     saw this girl walking down the road.  You were in your vehicle and you

 8     went on; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And then after about an hour, an inspector of the BH Army police

11     asked you to come to the morgue, and that's where you recognised the girl

12     that you had seen previously on the road.  You actually recognised her

13     body; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You did not see the actual moment when she was hit, it was

16     subsequently that you saw her corpse at the morgue?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   She was hit -- or rather, that was concluded on the basis of the

19     postmortem that was done afterwards.  The exit/entry wound was so big

20     that a conclusion drawn was that a 12.7-millimetre bullet had been used,

21     which was rather unusual for a sniper, wasn't it?

22        A.   It was.  But there was some heavy firing into that area that day.

23        Q.   The fire that you heard that day at that location, did it come

24     from both sides, if I can put it that way?  Did you hear it from

25     different locations?  Or was it that you had just heard that there had

Page 2971

 1     been firing?  Did you personally hear any gun-fire?

 2        A.   Yes, that day I heard the firing.  I heard that it was a heavier

 3     weapon than a normal machine-gun, so it had to be something like 12.7,

 4     14.6, whatever; and the fire came from east of the airport area.

 5        Q.   At that time when you were touring the locations at Igman, you

 6     saw these same weapons being used by the BH Army; right?

 7        A.   I saw one 12.7 sniper gun late that winter, yes.

 8        Q.   Just one more question in relation to this incident.  As for the

 9     location from which the bullet came, the one that hit the girl, you

10     established that on the basis of the wounds in her body and also the

11     direction of movement that you saw before that; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   At any rate, you don't know whether in the meantime she turned

14     around and started walking the other way, you have no way of concluding

15     what the situation actually was; right?

16        A.   Correct.  You just had to assume that she was still walking

17     somewhere and had -- she will not be out there walking for no reasons

18     because there was firing in the area.

19        Q.   Now I'm going to put a few questions to you in relation to the

20     shelling.

21             From whom did you receive information in terms of you having to

22     go to a particular location to carry out an onsite investigation related

23     to shelling?

24        A.   Well, we could get information from the civilian police, or if we

25     heard a detonation, we went on site on our own in initiative.

Page 2972

 1        Q.   I read in your statement that for the most part you went out with

 2     an investigating judge.  Was that a regular thing?  Would an

 3     investigating judge always be there when you would come, or would you go

 4     together, or what happened?

 5        A.   No, with some occasions, she was with us.  It was especially the

 6     days after the bomb that exploded, and then she was present in the area;

 7     so she followed everything we investigated on that side for that

 8     incident.

 9        Q.   A general question in relation to the incidents that you dealt

10     with.  Generally speaking, from the moment when you would find out that

11     an incident had occurred, how many time would elapse until you would

12     actually arrive at the actual site?  Can you give us any idea about the

13     time involved?

14        A.   It all depended on if it still was shelling going on or it was

15     just a single detonation.  If there was a single detonation, you could be

16     there within ten minutes.  If there was shelling going on, we had to wait

17     until that had stopped.  And then there was a lot of incidents or

18     detonation we never saw because we couldn't go to the area.

19        Q.   Just one more question, and then I think I will have completed

20     this particular line of questioning.

21             While you were working on onsite investigation, there were never

22     any representatives of the Bosnian Serb authorities in any sense, the

23     Army of Republika Srpska, an investigating judge, the police, no one;

24     right?

25        A.   Not in Hrasnica area, no.  As long as I was in the team in

Page 2973

 1     Hrasnica.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that we can take the break

 3     now, Your Honours.  And I would like to tender this document into

 4     evidence, the map that hasn't been admitted yet.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The map is admitted into evidence.  May it please

 6     be given an exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D36.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  And on that note, can we take

 9     a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.  Court adjourned.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Overgard, when you wanted to tour the frontline, if I can put

14     it that way, you had to address the military authorities and they had to

15     make it possible for you to go to these more dangerous zones; right?

16        A.   They wanted us to do that, yes.  Although, investigations done

17     close to the front line we also did that on our own initiative.

18        Q.   There were also cases when you were told that you shouldn't go,

19     and then you didn't go to visit certain zones; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Tell me, when you toured the frontline, that's what I'm going to

22     call it, but let me put it this way, did you go close to the line of

23     separation or the frontline of the BH Army?

24        A.   Yes, a couple of times I was there.

25        Q.   During your stay in Sarajevo and in Hrasnica, did you notice that

Page 2974

 1     the line moved in any way --

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   -- to anyone's advantage?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   So we can conclude that it was stable, the line of separation;

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, I'm going to put a few more questions to you, with regard to

 9     something completely different.  You said that once you had an onsite

10     investigation in relation to an air-bomb.  I'm not going to ask you about

11     the incident itself, but I'm going to ask but the procedure involved.  I

12     would be interested in hearing about your relationship with the Bosnian

13     authorities on that occasion.  So you can just give me yes or no answers

14     whether I understood the information provided by you correctly with

15     regard to that incident.

16             On that day you heard a loud explosion in the morning when you

17     were still at your base; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Then you tried to contact the local police and you even went to

20     the police station; however, you didn't find anyone there?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   Immediately afterwards, you went to the scene, and among the

23     debris, you noticed legs and feet belonging to a man who was wearing

24     camouflage uniform and boots; right?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 2975

 1        Q.   And when you discovered that on the spot, then the commander of

 2     the 4th Motorised Brigade showed up; and he asked you to go back to your

 3     base, and he removed you from the scene; right?

 4        A.   Right.

 5        Q.   So you would return to the base, and you stayed there until the

 6     late afternoon in the building at your base; and the BH Army put three

 7     soldiers at the entrance into the building, and they did not let you

 8     leave the building; right?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   In the meantime, two members of the French battalion came to see

11     what was going on, and they were not allowed to leave your base either;

12     right?

13        A.   That's right.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, may I just interrupt you and find out

15     something.  I notice that you are asking questions on the redacted part

16     of the tendered statement.  You are doing that deliberately and

17     purposefully.  Are you opening the redaction and saying that we can also

18     have sight of up redacted version because we have a copy of it, but I

19     notice that what was tendered by the Prosecution, this part is redacted.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.  All of

21     these questions pertain to his testimony and, indeed, his witness

22     statement, the part that is redacted too.  I uploaded the unredacted part

23     too in e-court.  So if the witness challenges something then I'm going to

24     show you a certain page -- show him, rather, the page of the transcript

25     involved.  I just wanted to go through this entire procedure with him

Page 2976

 1     without going into the entire testimony with regard to this incident

 2     because it's rather lengthy.  However, it's a public transcript.  His

 3     entire testimony is.  I can give you page references in respect of the

 4     questions that I'm putting to the witness so that you would have that for

 5     your own information.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't have any quarrel with you doing what you

 7     are doing, all I -- I'm -- the reason I'm asking the question is whether

 8     the unredacted version of the statement should now be tendered?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  I don't want it to be

10     tendered.  I just want to get to some facts that I'd like to get through

11     his answers.  I don't want the statement or parts of the transcript in

12     the evidence.  However, if there are some contradictions, in terms of the

13     answers he is giving me now, then I'm going to show him parts of his

14     previous testimony.  That's the way we handled it before too.  If there's

15     anything contradictory then I'm going to put a particular transcript page

16     to him or a page of a statement and ask him about that.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  You may proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour.

19        Q.   So I'll go back to the chronology.  Sometime in the late

20     afternoon you were allowed to go back to the scene because your liaison

21     officer had contacted the BH authorities, and late in the afternoon

22     around 1900 hours you came to the scene once again; right?

23        A.   I don't remember the exact timings, but late in the evening, yes,

24     or afternoon.

25        Q.   At that time, at the scene you no longer found any trace of the

Page 2977

 1     legs and feet with camouflage uniform and boots that you had observed

 2     beforehand; right?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   When you went to the site itself on those two occasions on that

 5     day, that is to say, after the police station first, and then later on in

 6     the late afternoon, on the scene you did not find any fragments that

 7     could have been helpful to you in terms of reconstructing what had

 8     happened?

 9        A.   We found some fragments but we did not know what this was.  I

10     believe it was that way.

11        Q.   And the next morning again the Bosnian authorities did not allow

12     you to go to the scene, you stayed on base until around noon; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Then when you came to the scene, the investigation authorities of

15     the BH side showed you certain fragments and pieces of clothing and so on

16     that were used to reconstruct the incident; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   After that with the inspector, you went to the morgue where you

19     were shown the corpse of a woman and you were told that she was a

20     casualty in that incident; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Another question that I did not find anywhere in the transcript.

23     As for the inspector that took you to the morgue or any other

24     representatives of the BH authorities that you contacted during those

25     days, did you tell them about having seen the traces of the feet in boots

Page 2978

 1     that you observed on that day?  Did you tell them that you had observed

 2     that?

 3        A.   I believe so because I got the explanation that this was a

 4     soldier and he was not badly hurt, so he was alive.  It would only be one

 5     casualty in that bomb.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you say he was not badly hurt, or --

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Or was he badly hurt?

 9             THE WITNESS:  He was not badly hurt.  He was nearly unharmed.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did that story sound convincing to you since you had seen the

13     area yourself?

14        A.   I should not speculate in that because he was not there anymore,

15     and I was not able to find out anything more about it.  Of course, he

16     could be alive and sound, but I have no evidence one way or the other so

17     we just left that story.

18        Q.   I'm just going to ask you now to explain what it was that you

19     saw, the image that you saw.  In the debris, you saw these legs and feet

20     of a man in camouflage uniform wearing boots, that's what you saw on the

21     first day; right?

22        A.   Yes, I saw the legs coming out of a lot of stones from the house

23     and this wall that fell down.

24        Q.   And when you saw this, the brigade commander asked that you be

25     removed from the scene; correct?

Page 2979

 1        A.   He came -- as I discovered this, he came at the same moment and

 2     he wanted us to go back to our accommodation.

 3        Q.   To be completely clear, let me ask you, so when you subsequently

 4     discussed this with the local authorities they told you that there had

 5     been a BH Army soldier there who had been slightly injured; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, there was a person.  They did not mention a soldier

 7     especially.  But just I saw only was the legs and the camouflage trousers

 8     and boots, military boots.

 9        Q.   Because on page 35, you mention the word "soldier," that the

10     soldier had not been seriously wounded.  You said that a few moments ago,

11     that it was a soldier who hadn't been seriously wounded?

12        A.   Yes, you can assume that it was a soldier since he had a uniform

13     and boots, but they referred to it as a person, not badly injured.

14        Q.   Just another question in relation to this incident and what you

15     yourself saw, and what you were unable to see later on.  Were you able to

16     compile a report to your superiors that you had gone to the scene and

17     that you weren't able to remain there because you had a sort of clash

18     with local authorities.  Is that something that you mentioned in your

19     report to your superior?

20        A.   I believe it was mentioned because we were detained in our house.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no

22     further questions.  Thank you Mr. Overgard.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.  Any

24     re-examination, Mr. Thomas.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, please, Your Honours.  Thank you.

Page 2980

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Thomas:

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Could we please have Exhibit D34 on the screen,

 3     please, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Now, Major, you recognise this map as one that you marked during

 5     the course of your testimony this morning.  The number 2, the circle with

 6     the number 2, just to refresh your memory, was where you marked the

 7     headquarters of the 4th Motorised Brigade of the ABiH.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You want to ask you about those headquarters and the location of

10     those headquarters, and the shelling activity that Hrasnica was subjected

11     to.

12             During your time there, was the premises of the -- or the

13     buildings occupied by the 4th Motorised Brigade the subject of shelling

14     by VRS forces?

15        A.   We never had any investigations in their buildings, no.

16        Q.   Was there anything like a pattern of shelling focused around that

17     building?

18        A.   The shelling was all over Hrasnica.  We had investigations all

19     along in all the areas.  Not anything specific where there were soldiers.

20        Q.   If you had -- if those military headquarters were the target,

21     would you have expected a different pattern of shelling?

22        A.   I would believe that the shelling will be closer to the specific

23     buildings, yes.

24        Q.   Was the headquarters of the 4th Motorised Brigade actually in the

25     centre of what we would describe the centre of the settlement, the focus

Page 2981

 1     of the town?

 2        A.   Yeah, it was in a big block with the -- in a basement, it was a

 3     big house for civilians, it was in the basement on that building.

 4        Q.   In the immediate vicinity of the headquarters was there a -- any

 5     civilian concentration?

 6        A.   Yes, it was civilians all around in that area, yes.

 7        Q.   And in the other areas of Hrasnica where the shells landed, were

 8     there any other such military installations?

 9        A.   Not to my knowledge.

10        Q.   You were asked a series of questions about a 17-year-old girl who

11     was shot by snipers, and this was not a part of the information you gave

12     in your statement or testimony which is before this Tribunal as part of

13     your 92 ter package, your evidential package that we already put in.  But

14     because you were asked about that, I just want to just go over that a

15     little briefly with you.

16             First of all, can you explain a little -- can you tell Your

17     Honours about this incident?

18        A.   Yes.  I believe we had been into the headquarters in the centre

19     of Sarajevo, me and one other UNMO, and on our way passing the place

20     where they were digging tunnel, we saw this girl, she was walking against

21     the houses.  This was along where, you could say along this road where

22     there was no houses, just where we saw her; but then closer to the houses

23     on the end of the road when we came there, there was a lot of shooting,

24     and it was heavy shooting this time.  It was not only light machine-gun,

25     it was heavy machine-gun.

Page 2982

 1             When we came to accommodation, the local police after awhile they

 2     contacted us, and I had, because the other guys were occupied with

 3     maintenance and generator and car, I went with the policeman alone to the

 4     morgue for that one.

 5        Q.   Now, the shooting you describe as going on at the time, was --

 6     was this shooting at the confrontation lines?  What sort of shooting was

 7     it?

 8        A.   It was shooting.  And when we protested to our liaison officer in

 9     the HQ, we got the answer that they were shooting to get the people away

10     from the area where they were digging.

11        Q.   Digging the tunnel?

12        A.   Yeah.

13        Q.   Who was shooting?

14        A.   This was from the Serbian side.

15        Q.   You spoke of the bullet that killed this girl.  Firstly, was she

16     civilian or military?

17        A.   She was civilian definitely.

18        Q.   Would that have been apparent to anyone who cared to look?

19        A.   Yeah.

20        Q.   You said that she was killed using a 12.7-millimetre round, and

21     my learned friend asked you whether you had ever seen such a weapon in

22     the hands of the army of the ABiH, but what I want to ask you is whether

23     the VRS forces had such weapons as well?

24        A.   Not as I had seen.

25        Q.   I'm sorry?

Page 2983

 1        A.   I did never see that, as I remember.  But for sure when they also

 2     had heavier weapons because we found fragments on the convoy road from

 3     30 millimetres and 20 millimetres.

 4        Q.   Okay.  When you say that this girl was shot by the Bosnian/Serb

 5     army, where had the shots come from?

 6        A.   The shots came from the hill-side west of the air field.

 7        Q.   West of the air field?

 8        A.   Yeah.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I wonder --

10        A.   Sorry, Lukavica barracks are around there, as I remember.  Okay.

11     Show that again.  Of course, east of the air field.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Maybe we can have Exhibit D35 on the screen, which

14     is the map that deals with this incident, I think.

15        Q.   Now, I think this is the map that deals with that incidents.  Do

16     you recall what you marked on the map as being the site of where this

17     girl was killed?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you mark on the map there where you found the source of fire

20     to be?

21        A.   Has to be somewhere in here, this area.

22        Q.   And who held that territory?

23        A.   That was Serbian territory.

24        Q.   Okay.  If you could just mark -- VRS forces?

25        A.   Yeah.

Page 2984

 1        Q.   If you could just put "VRS" there, please.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If that could please be

 4     produced as an exhibit.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  D35 as marked is admitted as an exhibit.  May it

 6     please be given an exhibit number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P486.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If I could just have a

10     brief moment with one of my learned colleagues.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             MR. THOMAS:

14        Q.   Now, you were asked about the occasion where you saw a

15     12.7-millimetre weapon in the position of the army -- in the position of

16     the ABiH.  Where did you see that?

17        A.   I believe it was on Mount Igman.  We had just passed a group of

18     soldiers up there.

19        Q.   And were all of those soldiers armed with that weapon?

20        A.   No, that was only one weapon with that one.  That was a brand new

21     roaming 12.7 sniper rifle.

22        Q.   From there position, did they have a line of sight into the area

23     where this girl was killed or any part of ABiH-held Sarajevo?

24        A.   They had to be very far up in the hill-side on Mount Igman then,

25     but from that position they did not have -- where I saw the weapon there

Page 2985

 1     was not any line of sight.

 2        Q.   Are you able to mark on the map that's still on the screen the

 3     sort of area where you saw this weapon?

 4        A.   I'm not sure where it was anymore.  I have to ... but I was on

 5     the road, convoy road somewhere.

 6        Q.   Which we see in the bottom left-hand corner of the map; is that

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, we've spoken about the tunnel, and

10     you've spoken about the tunnel.  Was the tunnel of strategic significance

11     to the people of ABiH-held Sarajevo?

12        A.   For sure it would be because it would do it a lot more easy to

13     get equipment, food, into Sarajevo pocket.

14        Q.   Why did they need to built a tunnel to do that?

15        A.   I'm not sure, but it would do it more easy and more safe to take

16     things into -- to go underground with things than pass the airfield with

17     it.

18        Q.   Were there more conventional points of entry into Sarajevo that

19     they could have used?

20        A.   I don't know.  I think the best way for all supplies was to come

21     down convoy road into Hrasnica area and then from there get it into

22     Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Finally, Major, I want to ask you about the mortars that were

24     placed for a period at Kovaci?

25             MR. THOMAS:  And the map I want to look at is D36, please.

Page 2986

 1        Q.   Now, do you recognise that map and the markings you were asked to

 2     make during your earlier testimony?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   First of all, to correct myself, I think the circle you drew with

 5     an S next to it marked the spot where the 17-year-old girl was shot; is

 6     that not a proper recollection of mine?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  But the part I'm interested in is the area you've circled

 9     marked with the letter M, presumably for mortars.

10        A.   Mm-hmm.

11        Q.   You described these four mortars in your statement as

12     81-millimetre mortars; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you said that as soon as you discovered that the mortars were

15     positioned there that you made sure they were removed; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you know when that was?

18        A.   The day after we discovered them when we were going up convoy

19     road again, they were removed.  So during that evening night.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You didn't have them removed.

21             THE WITNESS:  No, we complained about them, and they -- BiH

22     forces removed them.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just that line 7 of paragraph 44 suggests that you

24     had them removed, so I just wanted to make sure.

25             THE WITNESS:  No, we complained about them.

Page 2987

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             MR. THOMAS:

 3        Q.   In terms of trying to place a rough date, was this something that

 4     happened early in your time in Hrasnica, or late?

 5        A.   I had been there for awhile when we saw that, yes.

 6        Q.   And after you had made the request to have the mortars removed,

 7     was there any sign that they were still there, still being used?

 8        A.   No, we passed that backyard several times but never saw things

 9     like that again.

10        Q.   Thank you, Major, that's all that I have for you.  Their Honours

11     may have some questions for you, if you kindly wait there for a moment.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.

13             Thank you very much, Mr. Overgard, that concludes your testimony

14     for today and thank you so much for coming and testifying at the

15     Tribunal, you are now excused.  You may stand down, and please travel

16     well back home.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

20             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Mr. Cannata will lead the

21     next witness.  That concludes the business of myself and Ms. McKenna

22     before Your Honours this morning.  If I could please be excused.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are excused.

24             Mr. Cannata.

25             MR. CANNATA:  Good morning, Your Honour.  With your indulgence, I

Page 2988

 1     will switch on to that computer.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are indulged.

 3             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much.

 4             Your Honours, the Prosecution calls Dr. Youssef Hajir.

 5             MR. CANNATA:  It looks like we have a problem getting witnesses

 6     into the courtroom today, Your Honour.  I apologise for that.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, Doctor.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May you please make the declaration.

11             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Oh, okay.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  She will help you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS: YOUSSEF HAJIR

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may now be seated.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. CANNATA:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, Mr. Cannata.

21             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much.  Let me reminds Your Honours

22     that Dr. Hajir is a 92 ter witness.

23                           Examination by Mr. Cannata:

24        Q.   Sir, good morning.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 2989

 1        Q.   Can you please state your full name for the record, please?

 2        A.   Dr. Youssef Hajir.

 3        Q.   Doctor, can you tell the Court what was your profession from May

 4     1992 up to the end of the war, up to the end of 1995?  Thank you.

 5        A.   At the beginning of the war, I lived in Vrace, and since I was

 6     unable to get to work because there were barricades on the road around

 7     Sarajevo at Vrace, I was unable to reach my hospital, the clinic, the

 8     medical clinic.

 9        Q.   Sorry, let me stop you here.  Would you mind answering the

10     question I've asked you.

11             Now, the question would be, what was your profession between May

12     1992 up to the end of the war in 1995?  Thank you.

13        A.   I opened the Dobrinja Hospital, I worked there as a director.  I

14     was a surgeon and for the most part in this period, I really managed the

15     hospital and performed surgery.

16             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, can I have 65 ter 9396 on the screen,

17     please.

18        Q.   Sir, do you remember giving a statement to the Office of the

19     Prosecutor of the ICTY on 17 June, 2008?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Is that the document in front of you displayed on e-court, the

22     statement you gave and signed on 17 June, 2008?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, were you asked to review medical documents

25     issued by the Dobrinja Hospital which are listed in your statement?

Page 2990

 1        A.   Yes, some medical documents.

 2             MR. CANNATA:  Can we move to page 2 of this statement, please.

 3     Thank you.

 4        Q.   Do you confirm that the documents that are listed at page 2 and 3

 5     of this statement are copies of authentic medical records and

 6     certificates issued by the Dobrinja Hospital?

 7        A.   I reviewed the documents, and I concluded based on the form of

 8     the documents, and the doctors who signed the documents and who were my

 9     associates, and also based on documents that I signed, in other words,

10     both based on the signatures, the findings, and the form, they

11     correspond, are consistent with the documents of the Dobrinja Hospital.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, do you confirm that this statement,

13     the one that you signed on 17 June, 2008, is true and accurate to the

14     best of your knowledge?

15        A.   As far as I can recall, yes.

16        Q.   Does the statement accurately reflect what you would say today if

17     asked to speak about the same matters once again?

18        A.   Absolutely.

19             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, at this point I will tender into

20     evidence the statement and some of the medical records associated with

21     that.  I have a 65 ter number for each of the documents I would like to

22     tender into evidence.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Can we deal with 65 ter 09396 first.

24             MR. CANNATA:  Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

Page 2991

 1     given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P487.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, the next exhibit will be 65 ter 3030.

 5     Now, it is a long document.  On this occasion, the Prosecution only

 6     tenders some pages from this document under seal.  The pages will be page

 7     12, 13, 14, and 16 to 29 of the B/C/S original document.  And the

 8     corresponding pages in the English document which are 17, 18, 19, and 21

 9     to 34 of the English translation.  Under seal, thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 3030, those page that is are mentioned in

11     both English and the B/C/S are admitted into evidence.  May it please be

12     given an exhibit number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, those pages --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Under seal.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Those pages would be Exhibit P488 under seal.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Sir, I'd like you now to move to your testimony in the Galic

19     case.  Do you remember testifying before this Tribunal in the case

20     Prosecutor versus Galic on 17 January, 2002?

21        A.   Yes, I do remember that.

22        Q.   Now, did you have an opportunity to review the transcript of your

23     hearing in that case before appearing today in court?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Does it accurately reflect what you will say if asked the same

Page 2992

 1     questions again today in court?

 2        A.   Absolutely.

 3             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, at this stage I would tender into

 4     Exhibit 65 ter number 9397, which is the transcript of Dr. Hajir's

 5     testimony in the Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic case.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where is it?  We don't have it up on the screen.

 7             MR. CANNATA:  Can we have 65 ter 9397 on the screen, please.  As

 8     Your Honours see, it's a redacted copy of the transcript.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  The 65 ter 9397 is admitted.

10     May it please be given an exhibit number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P489.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, with your leave at this moment I will

14     read out a very brief summary of Dr. Hajir's evidence for the record.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may.

16             MR. CANNATA:  Dr. Hajir, Youssef Hajir was the director of

17     Dobrinja Hospital in Sarajevo since its establishment in May 1992 and

18     throughout the war.  Dr. Hajir authenticated medical records and that

19     certificates issued at the Dobrinja Hospital pertaining to the civilian

20     casualties of the shelling incident of 18 June, 1995 at the

21     Simon Bolivar School it Dobrinja, which is schedule shelling incident A7

22     of the Perisic indictment.  Your Honour, this concludes the summary and

23     the examination-in-chief.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Cannata.

25             Mr. Lukic.

Page 2993

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Hajir.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   I'm Novak Lukic and on behalf of General Perisic's Defence team,

 5     I will put a few questions to you.  It won't take very long.

 6        A.   Very well.

 7        Q.   However, we do need some clarifications in respect of what was

 8     admitted into the evidence now in terms of your testimony.

 9        A.   That's fine.

10        Q.   You and I both speak a language that we both understand, and this

11     has to be interpreted; so when I put my question, could you wait for a

12     few seconds so that the interpreters can catch up, otherwise we are

13     really going to run into problems with the transcript.

14             If I understood things correctly you actually established the

15     hospital in Dobrinja.  Did that exist before the war; right?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   Did it have the status of a military hospital?

18        A.   At first they called it the military hospital, that's what the

19     civilian protection people called it, and they also called it after me,

20     they said, Dr. Hajir's hospital.  Later on when it was registered in

21     court, you know, and when it was recognised by the Ministry of Health

22     then it became the general hospital of Dobrinja.  But at first, yes.

23     Sorry, I have to explain one more thing, well, there is a difference

24     isn't it, so I had to explain all of this.

25        Q.   So when was it that it became a general hospital?

Page 2994

 1        A.   Sometime in 1993.  I don't know exactly.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just can we just suggest that indeed try to stick

 3     to what you said at the beginning.  You speak the same language, you got

 4     to give each other a break, and when you do speak, speak a little bit

 5     slowly.  The interpreter was running at 150 kilometres an hour to try to

 6     keep up with you.

 7             Thank you, you may proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the interpreters in

 9     my own name and on behalf of the doctor too.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

12        Q.   The hospital was in Dobrinja.  In Omladinska Street; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In the same street there was the command post of the

15     Dobrinjska Brigade of the BH Army; right?

16        A.   It's not exactly the same place.  I mean, there must be at least

17     150 metres between the hospital and the headquarters.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Doctor, may I suggest, ask you to please stop a

19     little bit to give the interpreters an opportunity to interpret the

20     question before you start answering.

21             THE WITNESS: [In English] I'm very sorry.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's okay, Doctor.

23             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What about your colleagues from the hospital, were any of them

Page 2995

 1     members of the BH Army, I'm just talking about the war period, did any

 2     one of them have the status of the BH Army?

 3        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, quite a few of them.  Quite a few of them.

 4     I think that out of the 150 people who worked at the hospital, there were

 5     about 30 to 40 that became members of the army.  It was first that the

 6     hospital was established and only later they joined --

 7        Q.   They join the army?

 8        A.   Yes, but their role didn't really change.

 9        Q.   Did you have any status in the BH Army, you personally?

10        A.   Well, of course, you know.  I was -- well, you know what it was

11     like.  When the BH Army was established, they called he me up too because

12     I am a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so I was supposed to be mobilised;

13     however, I was already in the army.  I had the status of the director of

14     the hospital.  You know, I was already a military person.  However, no

15     rank, no nothing.

16        Q.   Zlatko Kravic was a colleague of yours; right?  He was a surgeon,

17     if I remember correctly?

18        A.   That's right.  Dr. Kravic was the deputy director, and later on

19     he was chief of the medical corps.

20        Q.   That is what I wanted to ask over the

21     5th Dobrinjska Motorised Brigade; right?

22        A.   That's right.

23        Q.   Doctor, do you know perhaps how many members the

24     5th Dobrinjska Motorised Brigade had perhaps?

25        A.   I really don't know, whatever I would say would not be right.  I

Page 2996

 1     really don't know.

 2        Q.   Sometimes armed soldiers came to the hospital building and

 3     actually entered the hospital; right?

 4        A.   Well, this is what I can tell you, there's one thing that's for

 5     sure.  At first, yes.  However, I met up with a commander, and I said

 6     that he had to issue an order that they should all leave their weapons at

 7     the entrance and then enter the hospital.  As far as the organisation of

 8     the hospital was concerned, I think that people for the most part abided

 9     by that.

10        Q.   Will you agree with me that the hospital from the time when it

11     was established, that is to say, from the summer of 1992; right?  Or

12     perhaps I may be wrong.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   There was considerable aid coming from donors, and there was

15     humanitarian aid, and it could function rather well, couldn't it?

16        A.   Absolutely.

17        Q.   And will you agree with me that from 1993 onwards there were

18     supplies.  I'm referring to medicine, everything that is indispensable

19     for the functioning of a hospital, supplies got better and better?

20        A.   Yes, absolutely.  We started from scratch.  You see, I mean I

21     carried out my first surgeries with dental equipment, and afterwards when

22     I handed over my duty, there were seven warehouses that were full of

23     equipment.  Especially the French battalion, they were very generous with

24     their humanitarian aid.

25        Q.   Let's be very specific, when you say at the end when you handed

Page 2997

 1     over, when was that?

 2        A.   Well, when the hospital was closed --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Pause, pause, pause, please.  Thank you.  You may

 4     proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   When was it that you handed over the hospital, and could you just

 7     pause?

 8        A.   I really cannot remember the date.  I really cannot remember.

 9     It's not that I don't want to tell you; I mean, really, I cannot.

10     Sometime toward the end of 1998, beginning of 1999.

11        Q.   Do you remember that during the war, you received some medical

12     assistance from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

13        A.   I don't remember.  I really do apologise, but I really do not

14     remember.  Possibly it did happen but --

15        Q.   I have some information to the effect that you had some material

16     that was manufactured by Hemofarm from Vrsac.  Do you remember that and

17     do you know where Vrsac is?

18        A.   You know, when we started, we really had nothing.  We had very

19     serious patients that bled a lot.  We were in Dobrinja.  And we found

20     three big warehouses in Dobrinja, and we found IV fluids, and we even

21     found dialysis fluids.  Hemofarm, yes, they did have a warehouse in

22     Dobrinja that was transported to the hospital, and all of these fluids

23     and medicines that we found we did use.

24        Q.   You had a lab in the hospital?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 2998

 1        Q.   You also had a plaster room?

 2        A.   Right.

 3        Q.   You had a blood transfusion department?

 4        A.   That's right, but that was later.  We really had to train people

 5     for blood treatments.

 6        Q.   My information says that it existed in May 1994 and afterwards,

 7     am I making a mistake?

 8        A.   Well, not really.

 9        Q.   You also had a sterilisation department; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   From some Islamic humanitarian organisations, you got a Ford

12     vehicle that was used as an ambulance?

13        A.   Right.

14        Q.   The in-flow of wounded persons and any patients coming in, in

15     1994 and 1995, did it actually go down in relation to the preceding

16     period, can you give us an approximation?

17        A.   Well, perhaps slightly, slightly.  In relation to 1993, 1993 was

18     the most difficult year of all.  Then you know, perhaps it went down by a

19     shade.

20        Q.   When admitting people into hospital, did you ever distinguish

21     between different people?  Did you establish whether the person being

22     admitted a civilian or soldier?

23        A.   We really didn't, sir.  We really didn't.  Our objective was, and

24     I mean I sat there with the people who were there, our objective was to

25     save as many people as possible.  Once we enter the hospital.  Later on,

Page 2999

 1     we tried to introduce some records, but I wasn't all that happy.  You

 2     know, I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and I really want to have things in

 3     proper order; so I personally was not satisfied.  I did manage to improve

 4     things as much as I wanted to, but then you know, I'm a surgeon, and I

 5     trained all these people.  I worked a lot in logistics too in terms of

 6     asking for the medicine that would really help patients.  We really did

 7     not distinguish between and among people in terms of whether they were

 8     civilians or military personnel, or on the basis of religious

 9     affiliation, or whatever, indeed.  Perhaps somebody else kept records of

10     some kind or realised what was going on, but I really did not.

11             MR. LUKIC:

12        Q.   Thank you, Your Honours.  I have concluded my examination.  Thank

13     you, Mr. Hajir, I have no further questions for you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

15             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you too.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata.

17             MR. CANNATA:  No re-examination, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             Doctor, thank you very much for taking time off your busy

20     schedule to come and testify at the Tribunal.  This brings us to the

21     conclusion of your testimony.  You are now excused.  You may stand down.

22     And will you please travel well back home.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata.

Page 3000

 1             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honours, the Prosecution has no other

 2     witnesses for today.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  That being the case then that brings us to

 4     the conclusion of our deliberations for today.  The matter stands

 5     adjourned to next Monday, the 2nd of February at quarter past 2.00 in

 6     courtroom II.  Court adjourned.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.49 a.m.

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of February

 9                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.