Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3263

 1                           Thursday, 5 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

11     The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             Could we have appearances for the afternoon starting with the

14     Prosecution, please.  Yes, Mr. Harmon.

15             MR. HARMON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel.  Mark Harmon,

16     Lorna Bolton, April Carter, and Carmela Javier for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, and for the Defence,

18     Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours and

20     everyone in the courtroom.  Mr. Perisic is represented today by Milos

21     Andric, Tina Drolec, Chad Mair, our case manager Daniela Tasic, and Mr.

22     Gregor Guy-Smith and Novak Lukic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

24             Good afternoon, Mr. Jusufovic.  Just to remind that you are still

25     bound by the declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony

Page 3264

 1     yesterday to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

 2     truth.  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon.  Thank you so much.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  Good afternoon --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 7                           WITNESS:  MESUD JUSUFOVIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:

10        Q.   There are just two areas of your previous testimony that I would

11     like to go back to from cross-examination.  The first area, sir,

12     concerned questioning - and for the record, this is found at page 3247 of

13     the transcript - where you were being asked about receiving calls from

14     former members of the fire brigade, and you told the Court that you had

15     conversations with former members, and they would say things like, A

16     shell is coming your way; or they would be announcing that five more

17     shells were coming -- or going to fall on the station.

18             Do you remember that portion of the questioning from yesterday,

19     sir?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   I just want to ask you some questions about that.

22             First of all, from whom -- what former members of the fire

23     brigade did you receive calls?

24        A.   One of them was Zeljko Rakanovic.

25        Q.   And did you receive calls every time there was going to be

Page 3265

 1     shelling or just on occasion?

 2        A.   No.  They did not call every time, just on occasion, because they

 3     used the same radio sets that we had, so from time to time they would

 4     announce the shelling.  They would curse us and say, Now we're going to

 5     start shelling you.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So my next question was going to be, were these in the

 7     nature of friendly warnings or different kinds of calls?

 8        A.   Well, they cursed us.  They used profanities.  They would tell us

 9     that they would kill us all and that's why they were sending these

10     shells.  It wasn't in a friendly manner.

11        Q.   Okay.  And the other area, sir, had to do with questioning about

12     the cold storage depot and the slaughter house.  Do you recall that area

13     of questioning from yesterday?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Right.

16             MS. BOLTON:  If we could bring up Defence Exhibit 41 from

17     yesterday, please.

18        Q.   Sir, you recall being asked questions about this document

19     yesterday?

20        A.   I was asked about Magros here, not about the slaughter house.

21        Q.   All right.  So this is a different -- this is a different

22     facility than the -- sorry, the Hladnjaca cold storage?

23        A.   There was a different document when they asked me about the cold

24     storage facility.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 3266

 1             MS. BOLTON:  I have the wrong exhibit number, then, I think.

 2     Must have been Exhibit 42, D42.

 3             If that could be produced, please.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Great.  I have the right document now, do I.  Sir?

 5        A.   Yes, this is the right document.

 6        Q.   And as I understand it, you indicated yesterday that this was --

 7     you acknowledge this was an order about military use of the premises at

 8     Hladnjaca cold storage, and the date appears to be sometime in September,

 9     perhaps September 18th, 1993.  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.  That's what it says on the document.

11        Q.   And we were -- when you were answering questions yesterday about

12     the fire at the Hladnjaca cold storage, you had indicated that you had

13     been injured at the time of that fire and could not personally attend.

14     Could you tell us what month and year your fire brigade responded to the

15     fire at Hladnjaca?

16        A.   It was in August 1992, and this document is dated September 1993,

17     so when we put out the fire in 1992, it is certain that there was no

18     military presence in that facility.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.  Those are all of my questions.  The Court

20     may have some questions for you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one or two questions for you, sir.

24                           Questioned by the Court:

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where in Bosnia-Herzegovina is Vratnik?

Page 3267

 1        A.   Vratnik is in the -- in Sarajevo town.  It's the old part of

 2     Sarajevo, a little bit above Bascarsija.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

 4             Now, yesterday, and unlike Madam Bolton I'm technologically

 5     challenged, so I'm not going to be able to give you the correct page

 6     number of transcript.  I give it to you as it stood yesterday.

 7             At page 79, lines 18 to 20, you indicated that you had been a

 8     fire-fighter since 1983.  Do you remember that?

 9        A.   Yes, I remember.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And in the answer to the next question, you said

11     had you been a taxi driver from 1980 to 1986.  Do you remember that?

12        A.   Yes, I remember that.  That's correct.  I don't know what you

13     said, what year I became a fire-fighter.  I became a fire-fighter in

14     1986.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good.  That's what I wanted to correct -- I wanted

16     to check, because according to the transcript you said -- it said 1983.

17     I don't know what you may have said.  So it was 1986 when you became a

18     fire-fighter?

19        A.   Yes, a professional fire-fighter.  I became a professional

20     fire-fighter in 1986.  But I was a volunteer fire-fighter since the age

21     of 7.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And -- okay.  Now, if you were a volunteer

23     fire-fighter since the age of 7, then my question will still stand.  In

24     1983, were you still a volunteer fire-fighter?

25        A.   Yes, I was a volunteer fire-fighter.

Page 3268

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And at that time, your permanent job was as a taxi

 2     driver?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As a volunteer fire-fighter, under what

 5     circumstances do you go and fight the fires, if you are supposed to be

 6     driving a taxi?  Can you explain how that happened?  How did you hold

 7     these two jobs.

 8        A.   I was, by occupation, a taxi driver, and a volunteer fire-fighter

 9     meant that when there was a fire to be put out, they would call us

10     volunteers, volunteer fire-fighters, and we would set our jobs aside and

11     come to the fire station, and then we would go to respond to the fire.

12     So it was all on a voluntary basis.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  That clears that up.

14             Now, this may be a little difficult, and I will ask for

15     assistance from those who can put me to that page.  It was page 82, lines

16     24, to page 83, line 2.  You said something like:  When we were there we

17     didn't have anything.  That's just about all I wrote of that sentence, so

18     I'm not able to give you the meat of that sentence.  What I wanted to

19     find out from you is, where were you, and what were you doing there?  How

20     do I get yesterday's page 82?

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well -- I thought I had it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The registrar will help me.

23             MS. BOLTON:  If it will assist, it was -- I think that was the

24     question I objected to or around that point in time.  So if we searched

25     for the objection, that might assist.

Page 3269

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, that's page 3248 at line 11.

 2             It says:

 3             "While I was there, we didn't have anything.  We would observe

 4     from Lapusnica them shelling us.  This was from about 800 metres, and we

 5     would just lie there because there was nothing you could shell" -- "we

 6     could shell them with or there was nothing we could shoot and reach

 7     them."

 8             Do you remember that answer?  I seem to suspect this was when you

 9     were in your trenches with your -- [Microphone not activated].

10        A.   Yes, I remember that portion.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now when you say when you were there, do you mean

12     when you were in the trenches, or what did you mean by "when we were

13     there"?

14        A.   We were on a location which was medieval fort, actually, which is

15     where Vratnik starts, and from this fort you could see Lapusnica.  Now,

16     Serbian soldiers were on top of Lapusnica.  They played football, they

17     would sunbathe, and then from time to time they would fire a shell from

18     their mortar.  We did not have any weapons, and although they were only

19     800 metres away, we had nothing to shoot at them with or fire at them.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             Madam Bolton, do you have any questions arising from the Bench's

22     questions?

23             MS. BOLTON:  I don't.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic?

25             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

Page 3270

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 2             Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony.  Thank you so

 3     much for taking the time to come and testify.  You are now excused.  You

 4     may stand down, and please travel well back home.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Your Honour, that is my only witness for today.  If

 9     I could be excused, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You might just be allowed to leave with some of us

11     when we do just now in case we are ordered to do so.  I guess the next

12     witness is a protected witness, and I'm told that there's a little bit of

13     preparation that has to be done before we can call the witness.  Is the

14     preparation going to be done while we're here, or are we going to adjourn

15     for two or three minutes?

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It takes a minute.  You are excused.

18             I suppose that, Madam Carter, you are leading this next witness.

19             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls Sead Besic.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  While we're waiting for him, can I just

21     explain the protective measures that are granted to this witness?

22             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour.  On 12 February 2007, in the

23     Dragomir Milosevic case, this witness was granted the protection of image

24     distortion, and we're just asking for a continuation of that protective

25     measure.

Page 3271

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Should we actually be in private session?  I think

 2     so.

 3             MS. CARTER:  His identity by name is not at issue.  It's merely

 4     he wants to have his face protected because he still serves as an

 5     officer, so the name and the pseudonym is not necessary, strictly the

 6     image itself.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But was a pseudonym not granted as a protective

 8     measures in the previous case?

 9             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour.  In fact, the witness has testified

10     both in the Galic as well as the Dragomir Milosevic case under his given

11     name.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  But may we move into private session

13     for the purposes of the witness's entry?

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3272











11 Pages 3272-3280 redacted. Private session.















Page 3281

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             MS. CARTER:  May I continue with my questioning?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:   Thank you so much.  Now you may.

24             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So north is down?

Page 3282

 1             MS. CARTER:  Correct.  Well --

 2        Q.   Sir, can you please indicate -- you've written the letter "N,"

 3     and you've also given a directional angle.  Can you please clarify for

 4     the Court, are you indicating that to the bottom of this page is north?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Further, with relation to this image, you were asked to

 7     mark the impact crater.  Can you please do so again here today with a

 8     circle.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And if you can please place the English initials "IC" next to the

11     crater.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   You further were asked to indicate where the bicycles that we saw

14     in the previous photograph were located within your sketch.  Can you

15     please draw a circle around where those bicycles were located?

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Okay.  If you could please place the English initial "B" above

18     those bicycles.

19        A.   [Marks]

20             MS. CARTER:  If I can have a screen shot of this image and tender

21     it into evidence.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The sketch is admitted into evidence.  May it

23     please be given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P528.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

Page 3283

 1             When you are done, I have a few clarification questions about the

 2     sketch.

 3             MS. CARTER:  Okay.  Certainly, Your Honour.

 4             That's all I'll need for this sketch.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 6             MS. CARTER:

 7        Q.   Sir, within the sketch, you've placed the bicycles and you've

 8     placed the impact crater.  What is the approximate distance between those

 9     two items?

10        A.   Roughly four metres.

11        Q.   That's the only question that I have in relation to this diagram.

12     If Your Honours would like to ask additional questions.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Sir, if you could please briefly run us through this sketch and

15     tell us what everything is, it would be very helpful; or maybe let me

16     start off by leading you and say there are two long parallel lines in

17     between of which you have circled the impact crater.  What do those lines

18     signify?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These parallel lines stand for the

20     width of the street.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name of the

22     street that the witness mentioned.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the name of the street?  Did you mention

24     the name?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.

Page 3284

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             Now, to the top left of the sketch, there is a rectangular

 3     drawing with an indentation to the left.  What is that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the edge of the building by

 5     which a passage stretches on.  This is the entrance way, the lateral

 6     entrances into the buildings.

 7             If I could only show you this.  This street leads to the front

 8     gate onto the Markale market.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which street?  The street that --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It used to be called

11     Vase Miskina Street.  Now it's called Ferhadija.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, the rectangle inside which you wrote

13     the letter "B," what does it represent?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the town market.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the entrance from the Mula

17     Mustafe Baseskije Street, and then there is the entrance to the market

18     from Ferhadija Street, but you can't see it on this sketch, though.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to shorten my questions.

20             Do I then understand that the next rectangle on the right is also

21     a block of buildings, and that between it and the one you have just

22     explained, there is a passage again?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is another passage also

24     leading to Ferhadija Street.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And would I then understand that on

Page 3285

 1     the northern side of the street, those are also -- those rectangles also

 2     represent buildings and a passage?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  There is something that looks like a

 5     bicycle or a motorbike.  I think it's numbered number 6.  What is that?

 6     In the street.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A driver of a small moped was

 8     killed, and the motorcycle was found there and marked.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             You may proceed, Madam Carter.

11             MS. CARTER:  I would like to call up P526 at page 34, Your

12     Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MS. CARTER:

15        Q.   For clarity of your answers to Your Honour's questions, are you

16     able to orient on this picture where the motorbike was located in the

17     drawing?

18        A.   It is to be found on the tram tracks here.  If I could show it to

19     you, it's on the right-hand side, the spot where the shell landed.  There

20     is damage to the left and the right side.

21             MS. CARTER:  If I could ask for the assistance of the usher

22     again.  I do apologise.

23        Q.   Sir, I'd first like you to circle the motorbike that you

24     referenced in answer to Your Honour's question.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 3286

 1        Q.   If can you write the English initial "M" to the left of that

 2     motor bike.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   You were also asked about the impact crater in relation to the

 5     sketch.  Are you able to see the impact crater in this image as well?

 6             MS. CARTER:  The witness is marking the photograph.

 7        Q.   Sir, if you can write the English initials the "IC" below that

 8     impact crater.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   You were also asked in relation to Your Honour's question about

11     the buildings themselves.  Can you please identify for the Court with the

12     English initials "MM" the Markale market.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Sir, can you also identify for the Court and for counsel what, if

15     any, shrapnel damage is apparent from this photograph?

16        A.   Yes.  One can see shrapnel damage on the buildings on the left

17     and on the right side.

18        Q.   If you could please mark that shrapnel damage with the dashes as

19     you did in the first photograph.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   You've marked dashes within the image.  If you can please write

22     above those dashes the letter "S," for shrapnel.

23        A.   [Marks]

24             MS. CARTER:  If I could please have a screen shot of this image

25     and tender it into evidence.

Page 3287

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought the witness said:

 2             "Yes.  One can see shrapnel damage on the buildings on the left

 3     and on the right side."

 4             I would like to see on the other side too.

 5             MS. CARTER:  Certainly.

 6        Q.   Before we capture this image, if you can also indicate the

 7     shrapnel damage to the right.

 8        A.   If we could zoom in, we would be able to see the damage in this

 9     area.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we please zoom in?  We can't.  Okay.

11             MS. CARTER:  Well, if we can capture this image first and then

12     zoom in, we'll take a second screen shot, if Your Honours please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We please.

14             MS. CARTER:  I tender this into evidence.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it be given an exhibit

16     number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P529.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MS. CARTER:  If the image can now be zoomed in upon so that we

20     have just the photograph to the extent that we can in the full frame.

21        Q.   Sir, you're now seeing the image.  Would you be able to show for

22     Your Honours the shrapnel damage to both the left and right of this

23     image.  Before you mark, if you could confirm that.

24        A.   [Marks].

25        Q.   Sir, you've placed both circles as well as dashes to the left and

Page 3288

 1     to the right of this image.  Are you indicating that this is the shrapnel

 2     damage visible at this location?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   To the extent that you're aware, was the shrapnel damage caused

 5     on 18 August 1995?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. CARTER:  I would ask to take a screen shot of this image,

 8     indicating the shrapnel damage, and I tender it into evidence.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it be given an exhibit

10     number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P530.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             MS. CARTER:  That is the last image that I'll have marked upon.

14        Q.   I just want to clarify one more aspect of your Dragomir Milosevic

15     testimony.  As the page numbers have changed from that transcript to this

16     transcript, I want to make certain that we have clarity.

17             During your redirect testimony in Dragomir Milosevic, you were

18     asked about there being evidence of the vendors and their goods being

19     on-site during events at Markale II, and this was at transcript page

20     2624, line 14.

21             MS. CARTER:  I'd now like to call up P526 at page 46.

22        Q.   Sir, is this the image that you identified in Dragomir Milosevic

23     as evidence of a cigarette vendor on-site?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  And, finally, I would like to move to page 66 of the same

Page 3289

 1     exhibit.

 2             Is this the image that you identified in prior testimony as

 3     depicting another vendor's goods, specifically cigarette lighters?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Sir, I thank you for your time and your testimony, and I pass the

 6     witness.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             Mr. Guy-Smith.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No questions.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Witness, I have some questions to

14     ask.

15             Just where the covered market, where the bomb exploded on the

16     other side, there is an open market with green grocers who are selling

17     fruits and vegetables.

18        A.   Yes.  It is some 100 metres away from the market.

19             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

20        A.   Yes.  The two markets - namely, the open market and the closed-in

21     market - are quite close, one to another, as is the fruit market, which

22     is also nearby.

23             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Therefore, the bomb exploded or

24     the shell exploded between the two markets, closer to the covered market

25     but between the two?

Page 3290

 1        A.   It exploded right outside the entrance to the Markale market, and

 2     a year earlier, a shell landed on Markale I.  That is the market that

 3     you're referring to.

 4             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, you stood up in a very agitated

 6     mood.

 7             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour.  I didn't anticipate being

 8     agitated.  I just wanted to point out for the Court, at page 26, line 8,

 9     Judge Picard's question was not recorded, so we're not certain for the

10     clarity of record what the question was that the witness responded to.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Judge Picard, can you remember?

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could the French booth help us or ... if they can

14     remember what the Judge said.

15             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could ask whether the

16     two markets were active during the war?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             Thanks, Madam Carter.

20             Any questions arising from Judges' questions, Madam Carter?

21             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith?

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  None.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3291

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That brings us to the end of your testimony, sir.

 2     Thank you so much for coming to testify.  You are now excused.  You may

 3     stand down, and please travel well back home.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into -- we are in open

 7     session.  All we need to do is to pull up the curtain.

 8             Madam Carter, next witness.

 9             MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will take the next witness,

10     but he's not with us.  He's probably en route or -- we anticipated that

11     this examination would continue through 3.30 at least, so we didn't have

12     Mr. Cannata sitting in the courtroom.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any suggestions what we can do?

14             MR. HARMON:  What I suggest, we break -- take a break now and

15     then come back --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Come back for Mr. Cannata.

17             MR. HARMON:  -- and Mr. Cannata will be ready.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

19             Court adjourned.

20             MR. HARMON:  Thank you.

21                           --- Break taken at 3.19 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon once again.

24             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

25             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Mr. Cannata will call the next witness.

Page 3292

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Cannata.

 2             MR. CANNATA:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I'm here.  The next

 3     witness is a protected witness.  Shall we go -- yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 5     Could we bring down the curtain, please, or the blind, as it is called.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3293











11 Pages 3293-3297 redacted. Private session.















Page 3298

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since I would like to put a couple of

16     questions to the witness which have to do with his professional

17     background, could we move into private session for the next couple of

18     questions.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3299











11 Pages 3299-3312 redacted. Private session.















Page 3313

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 9             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, my colleague Ms. McKenna will call the

10     next witness.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna.

12             MR. CANNATA:  Your Honour, if I may be excused.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are, Mr. Cannata.

14             MR. CANNATA:  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As you move to your podium, Madam McKenna, what is

16     the name of your next witness, or is he a protected witness too?

17             MS. McKENNA:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon.

19             MS. McKENNA:  The next witness is Mr. Azem Agovic.  He is a 92

20     ter witness.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And he's not protected?

22             MS. McKENNA:  And he's not protected.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, sir.

Page 3314

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May you please make the declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  You may be seated, sir.

 6             Your witness, Madam McKenna.

 7             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           WITNESS:  AZEM AGOVIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Ms. McKenna:

11        Q.   Sir, could you please state your name and date of birth for the

12     record.

13        A.   My name is Azem Agovic.  I was born on the 12th of July, 1948.

14        Q.   Do you recall testifying in the case against Dragomir Milosevic

15     on 13th February, 2007?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. McKENNA:  If we could please have 65 ter 09425 on the screen,

18     and page 3 of that document.

19        Q.   Prior to coming here today, was this testimony read back to you

20     in your own language?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Were the contents of the testimony true and correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today, would you answer in

25     the same way?

Page 3315

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, may I please tender this as a

 3     Prosecution Exhibit.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 5     please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P535.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.

 9             If I could please have 65 ter 09423.

10        Q.   Mr. Agovic, do you recall giving a statement to the

11     representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor on 21st of November,

12     1995?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And if we could just scroll down on the English version of this

15     document, so the document on the left-hand side.

16             Do you recognise your signature on that document?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was this document -- was your statement read back to you in your

19     own language prior to signing it?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review the statement prior to

22     your testifying today?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Are the contents of the statement true and correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3316

 1        Q.   And, once again, if you were asked the same questions today,

 2     would you answer them in the same way?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, could this please be tendered as a

 5     Prosecution Exhibit.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 7     given an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P536.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             MS. McKENNA:  If I could please have 65 ter 09424 in e-court.

11        Q.   Mr. Agovic, do you recall giving a further statement to

12     representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor on the 21st of April,

13     2006?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And do you recognise your signature on this document?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Was the document read back to you in your own language prior to

18     your signing it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review the statement prior to

21     your testifying today?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Once again, if you were answered [sic] the same questions, would

24     you answer them in the same way?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3317

 1             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, if I could tender this as a

 2     Prosecution Exhibit.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 4     number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P537.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             MS. McKENNA:

 8        Q.   Together with your previous testimony before the Tribunal, do

 9     these two statements constitute an accurate record of what happened to

10     you on the 3rd of March, 1995?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MS. McKENNA:  With the Court's permission, I'd like at this stage

13     to read a short summary of the witness's prior testimony into the record.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

15             MS. McKENNA:  The witness's evidence relates to scheduled

16     incident B11 of the indictment.

17             On 3rd March, 1995, the Bajram Muslim holiday, the witness was

18     travelling on a crowded tram between the new part of the city in Novi

19     Grad and the old city in Bascarsija.  It was a sunny and clear day.  The

20     witness was sitting facing the rear of the tram with the Grbavica

21     neighbourhood to his left.  In the vicinity of the Holiday Inn hotel,

22     where the tram lines turn to the outside of the road from the centre, the

23     witness was shot.  One bullet entered his body just above the left hip

24     and exited at his right hip.  The witness testified that the shooting

25     came from the Grbavica area.  A young man and a child were also wounded

Page 3318

 1     in the incident.  There were no military institutions, military vehicles,

 2     or any other military equipment present in the vicinity of the area in

 3     which the tram was shot at, neither had there been any military activity

 4     in the area that day.

 5             The witness was taken to Kosevo Hospital where he was operated on

 6     and stayed for 16 days in intensive care.  After the incident, the

 7     witness's health deteriorated.  Initially, he could not walk far, drive a

 8     car, or carry heavy things, and he continued to receive treatment for

 9     about another three years.

10             Your Honours, if I may, I'd like to ask one or two brief

11     clarificationary questions regarding the testimony that the witness has

12     given.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

14             MS. McKENNA:

15        Q.   Witness, in your statement of 21st November, 1995, you described

16     how you were taken to Kosevo Hospital, where you spent time in intensive

17     care.

18             MS. McKENNA:  If I could ask that we see 65 ter 04525, please.

19        Q.   Mr. Agovic, this is a letter of admission to the emergency ward

20     of the Kosevo Hospital dated 3rd March, 1995.  Can you confirm that this

21     was the date on which you were admitted to the hospital?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this as a

24     Prosecution exhibit.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is so admitted.  May it please be given an

Page 3319

 1     exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P538.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  If we could please see 65 ter 00181.

 5        Q.   Mr. Agovic, this is a medical record from the Sarajevo University

 6     Clinical Centre regarding the treatment you received for the injury

 7     caused by the sniper shot.  Could you please explain what type of surgery

 8     you underwent?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam McKenna, will the witness be able to answer

10     that question, or should we, rather, refer to this document to see what

11     surgery he underwent?

12             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, the witness does have a recollection

13     of the general type of surgery, but by all means, we can refer to the

14     document.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  As you please.  If you think he can give us

16     an explanation, let him go ahead.

17             MS. McKENNA:

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, to the best of your ability, can you recall the

19     treatment you received in Kosevo Hospital further to your sniper injury?

20        A.   Well, all I can say, that the surgery was very complex because

21     you can see my entire abdomen on the front was open.  The scars are still

22     visible where the bullet entered and exited.  The surgery took about

23     seven to eight hours, between 11.00 p.m. up until 7.00 a.m., 8.00 a.m.,

24     and being an architect I really could not help you with the medical

25     terms.

Page 3320

 1        Q.   That's understood.

 2        A.   No one really believed that I would survive.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  If I may tender this document as an exhibit,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter 00181 is admitted.  May it please be given

 7     an exhibit number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P539.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, this concludes my

11     examination-in-chief.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam McKenna.

13             Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Agovic, good afternoon.  My name is Novak

17     Lukic, and on behalf of the Defence team for Mr. Perisic, I will be

18     putting several short questions to you.  I would just kindly ask you to

19     make a brief pause before answering my question, and I will do the same

20     before I put the next question to you in order to make sure that the

21     interpretation of what we say is accurate.

22             We've already heard two witnesses in relation to this incident in

23     this courtroom before, and we do have a fair idea of what happened.  But,

24     nevertheless, you will be given a sketch, and I will ask you to draw the

25     position where you recall the tram was.

Page 3321

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately, all the

 2     photographs are already marked in e-court, and this is one copy of a

 3     photograph I received courtesy of the OTP, and could we place this on the

 4     ELMO for the witness to make a marking on it if he can find his bearings

 5     on it.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.  But your --

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is 65 ter 8598.  Unfortunately,

 8     all the copies that were available are already marked in e-court.  This

 9     is a blank copy, and I can pass it up to my colleagues to inspect it.  I

10     just wanted it to be placed on the ELMO.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.  Pass it onto your colleagues.  While

12     you're doing so -- there we go.  We seem to be getting it on e-court.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was going ask why can't we get it because --

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excellent.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was looking at other photographs,

18     and they were all marked.

19        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with the location?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you see and can you mark the place where you believe the tram

22     was shot at and when you were wounded on this photograph?  The usher will

23     hand you a special pen, and you will place a small cross on the screen

24     itself, marking the location where you believe the tram was.

25             You were moving from the right side to the left, from downtown to

Page 3322

 1     the suburbs?

 2        A.   From Ilidza towards Bascarsija.

 3        Q.   Right.

 4        A.   And this is where the tram crosses from the middle of the street

 5     where the track ran to the right-hand side of the street, and this is

 6     where it was.

 7        Q.   Can you please place a cross on the spot?

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Right.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please erase the

11     obviously erroneous blue line in the continuation?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this one.

13             MR. LUKIC:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

18     given an exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D43.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             MR. LUKIC:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Agovic, you felt a blow.  Did you hear a

23     shot being fired before that, or did you not hear anything?  Do you

24     recall this?  It's been a long time ago.

25        A.   When the first shot was fired, I only felt the pain, but I did

Page 3323

 1     not hear that first shot which hit me.  I only heard the shots that

 2     ensued.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please be asked to approach the

 4     microphones.

 5             MR. LUKIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] That same bullet?

 7        A.   No.  The person next to me was hit by another bullet.

 8        Q.   And how do you know that it was a different bullet that hit the

 9     person next to you?

10        A.   Because the bullet that hit me remained in my body, so it must

11     have been another bullet that hit the other person.

12        Q.   I'm asking you this because only one hole, a bullet-hole, was

13     found on the tram during the on-site investigation.

14        A.   Well, I'm an architect.  I'm not familiar with these matters.

15        Q.   In your statement, which is now Exhibit P5536, this is the first

16     statement you gave in 1995, and you say - that's the last paragraph of

17     the statement:

18             "The bullet that hit me was fired from a building in Zagrebacka

19     Street on the very edge where Grbavica starts."

20             If we blow up the photograph, can you locate --

21        A.   The building was called Matalka.  I didn't go over there to take

22     look at it, but that's what the story was, that there was a sniper up

23     there.

24        Q.   It was something you heard from the various stories?

25        A.   I didn't have any desire to go and see for myself.

Page 3324

 1        Q.   At any rate, you had the information on the basis of what you

 2     heard, that there were snipers in that building?

 3        A.   When I recovered and I began walking again, that was when I heard

 4     the story, not before.

 5        Q.   So you've -- you didn't finish your answer.  You learned about it

 6     when you got out of the hospital, but before that?

 7        A.   No, I never did go over there.  I would not have been on a tram

 8     had there not been a truce in force at the time because the trams

 9     otherwise would not have run through the area.  There was a truce on, and

10     that's why the trams were running along the tracks, and after that

11     incident, they did not run before the Dayton Accords were passed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's all.  Thank you,

13     Witness.  I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

15             Any re-examination, Madam McKenna?

16             MS. McKENNA:  I would just like to make a clarification or a

17     correction, rather, to the transcript at page 58, line 2.  The direction

18     should read Bascarsija to Ilidza.  So --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you confirm that with the witness, please.

20                           Re-examination by Ms. McKenna:

21        Q.   Witness, could you please confirm which direction the tram was

22     travelling when you were shot.

23        A.   From Ilidza to Bascarsija.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And you were facing in the direction of?

25        A.   It was facing Ilidza.

Page 3325

 1        Q.   And which area was to your left?

 2        A.   Grbavica was to my left.

 3        Q.   And from which direction were -- were you hit?

 4        A.   From the left side.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. McKENNA:  I have no further questions.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, ma'am.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one question, sir, or one little issue.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did I hear you correct that you had an entry wound

12     and an exit wound on the other side of -- on the other hip, on the right

13     hip?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In answer to a question by counsel for the

16     Defence, you said that the bullet that hit you remained in your body, so

17     it must have been another bullet that hit the other person.

18             My question is:  If it remained in your body, how do you get an

19     exit wound?

20        A.   The physicians took it out.  It was stuck in the tissue.  As it

21     went and hit the right hip bone, it remained stuck there, hanging in the

22     skin tissue or the trousers or whatever.  I'm not sure about this fully,

23     where exactly it was, because it was the doctor who took it out and

24     showed it to me, and you can see the exit wound.  You can see both the

25     entry and the exit wounds.

Page 3326

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We accept what you say.  We will not want to look

 2     at your hip at this stage.  Thank you so much.

 3             Any questions arising from the Bench's questions?  Madam McKenna?

 4     Thank you.

 5             Sir, that brings us to the end of your testimony for today.  You

 6     are now excused, and you may stand down.  Please travel well back home.

 7     That concludes your evidence, and thank you so much for coming to

 8     testify.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Saxon.

11             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  That is all the witnesses

12     the Prosecution has available today.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For the day?

14             MR. SAXON:  Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Do we then stand adjourned to Monday

16     the 9th at 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I.

17             Court adjourned.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.12 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of

20                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.