Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3327

 1                           Monday, 9 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-81-T,

10     The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             May we have the appearances for today, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. SAXON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dan Saxon for the

15     Prosecution together with my colleagues, April Carter, and

16     Carmela Javier.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much Mr. Saxon.

18             And for the Defence.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honours.  We trust that

20     everyone had a good weekend.  The sun actually broke through the grey

21     this weekend, which was kind of nice.  This morning there is

22     Milos Androvic, Tina Drolec, Chad Mair, Daniela Tasic, Novak Lukic, and I

23     am Gregor Guy-Smith.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25             The Prosecution, Mr. Saxon.

Page 3328

 1             MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, Ms. Carter will call the next witness.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 3             MS. CARTER:  The Prosecution calls Lieutenant-Colonel Per Anton

 4     Brennskag.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you think you can spell out his names while

 6     we're waiting for us.

 7             MS. CARTER:  Certainly, Your Honour.  The first name is P-e-r,

 8     second name A-n-t-o-n.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I don't know if everyone's hearing

11     this, but I'm getting French out of everyone channel.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What channel are you on?

13             MS. CARTER:  I have run one through 1, 2, 3, and 4.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.  You've got to stay on 4.

15             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I'm still hearing French.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why am I not hearing French?  I'm on 4.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If we could have Madam Carter helped, please.

19             MS. CARTER:  I can use the secondary set of.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, Lieutenant.

22             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you please make the declaration.

24             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

25     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 3329

 1                           WITNESS: PER ANTON BRENNSKAG

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

 3             Are you okay now, Madam Carter?

 4             MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour I will use the secondary set of

 5     microphones and earphones for ease.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

 7             MS. CARTER:  May it please the Court.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Carter:

 9        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel Brennskag, can you please introduce yourself

10     to the Court.

11        A.   Yes.  My name is Per Brennskag.  I am 60 years old, and I'm from

12     Norway.  I'm a retired army man, retired from the Norwegian army, since

13     2002.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does the name Anton fit anywhere in your names.

15             THE WITNESS:  I can't hear you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does the name, Anton fit anywhere among your

17     names.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Per Anton Brennskag.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, okay.  Thank you very much.

20             MS. CARTER:

21        Q.   Sir, you've indicated that are you an army man.  Can you please

22     tell us, when did you enter the Norwegian army?

23        A.   I entered the officer course in the Norwegian army as an infantry

24     man in 1970, and I graduated from the Military Academy in 1974.

25        Q.   You've indicated that you were in an infantry officer.  Can you

Page 3330

 1     please tell the Court what type of training that you received, in order

 2     to hold such a position.

 3        A.   I had my basic training as an infantry officer from 1970.  I was

 4     introduced with the rifles, the normal infantryman use and other weapons

 5     we used.  We were educated how to use the terrain, how to patrol, how to

 6     lead a squad and so on; and afterwards, during my whole career, I was --

 7     learned to -- how to plan, how to prepare, and how to execute, for

 8     example, attacks on ground, and how to use the - what should I say? -

 9     okay, I stop there.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Just for clarity for the record, you were having

11     difficulty choosing the last word.  Is it accurate that English is not

12     your mother tongue?

13        A.   My English is not my mother tongue, and it's seldom I am using

14     English now.

15        Q.   Okay.  But are you comfortable using the English language in

16     court today?

17        A.   I try my best.

18        Q.   Thank you.  That's all we can ask.

19             Sir, at some point in time did you begin to work for the

20     United Nations?

21        A.   Please say again.

22        Q.   At some point in time did you begin working with the

23     United Nations?

24        A.   Yes.  In 1992, I attended an UN observer course in Finland.  It's

25     an operational course, lasted three or four weeks, preparing officers for

Page 3331

 1     the job as unarmed observers, especially for the Middle East.

 2        Q.   Sir, specifically, what type of training and education did you

 3     receive in order to become an unarmed observer?

 4        A.   It was both practical and theoretical.  The theory was to cope

 5     with military English, of course, the history, especially, about Middle

 6     East, and the politics in the Middle East.  The practice was very good.

 7     It was how to observe from an observer post, how to make patrols, how to

 8     behave in the case you were hijacked, how to cope with a car that was

 9     wrecked, how to repair it, and how to drive in very difficult terrain,

10     and how to work together with other observers from other countries.  Yes.

11        Q.   Did you take this education and training that you received and

12     use it in the field?

13        A.   Yes.  During the course, we were very much in the field to

14     practice this.  For example, we were very realistical [sic] hijacked,

15     stripped from clothes, and had to go back to the barracks.

16        Q.   After you received this training, did you become an UN military

17     observer in the Middle East?

18        A.   Yes.  I went down to the Middle East in - I think it was in

19     June - the same year, in 1992, and I was an unarmed observer half a year

20     on the demarcation line between Lebanon and Israel and the last half year

21     in Syria, on Golan.

22        Q.   After your service in the Middle East, what did you do next?

23        A.   Then, of course, I went back to my job in the army in Norway.

24        Q.   Were you later called upon to be an UN observer again?

25        A.   Yes.  I applied for it, and in early 1988 I was a little bit

Page 3332

 1     surprisingly asked to go to Balkans as an unarmed military observer.

 2        Q.   You gave the year to go to the Balkans as 1988; is that correct?

 3        A.   No, that is not correct.

 4        Q.   Can you give the clarify the year?

 5        A.   1995.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And when you entered the Balkans in 1995, what

 7     was your original assignment?

 8        A.   In the UN observer team, you mean?

 9        Q.   Yes, please.

10        A.   Yes, my assignment was to be an unarmed military observer, and I

11     was -- my first posting was in what we call Sector Sarajevo.

12        Q.   In that first Sector Sarajevo posting, which division or portion

13     of Sector Sarajevo were you assigned to?

14        A.   I was assigned to the observer team in Pale on the Bosnian Serb

15     side.

16        Q.   Did you stay the entire time in Pale or did you later move on to

17     another division?

18        A.   No, I didn't stay the entire time.  I was luckily enough to get

19     out of Pale the 24th of May for a leave, and I think it was the 25th or

20     26th, the first NATO air-strike, and all my colleagues were seized or

21     detained, so I never could go back to Pale, so after my leave, I was

22     posted inside Sarajevo on the Bosnian -- BiH side.

23        Q.   Where were you specifically posted within Sector Sarajevo,

24     Sarajevo?

25        A.   At first, I were posted in an observer team which we called Team

Page 3333

 1     Pofalici.

 2        Q.   Within Team Pofalici, did you also man an observation post?

 3        A.   Yes.  The Team Pofalici had an observation post on the hillside

 4     called Vitkovac it's just east of Rajlovac radio station on the hillside

 5     and north of -- a little bit north of the new town of Sarajevo.

 6        Q.   And, sir, did that observation post correspond to a number?

 7        A.   As far as I know, it was called 4, OP 4.

 8        Q.   Okay.  After your service as a military observer within the

 9     Pofalici team, did you remain in that status or did you take another

10     responsibility within the UN sometime thereafter?

11        A.   I'm not really sure of the date, but sometimes in the middle of

12     August, I was asked to be a liaison officer inside Sarajevo to liaise

13     between UN observer HQ in Sarajevo, and the police in Sarajevo, and the

14     military units inside Sarajevo.

15        Q.   And, sir, when did you depart Sarajevo?

16        A.   Excuse me.  I departed Sarajevo, I think it must be the

17     17th of September.

18        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now that we have established your biography, I

19     would like to focus a bit more on your work within Sarajevo.

20             First, I would like to move a general description before we get

21     into the specifics that you participated there in Sector Sarajevo.

22             Can you please describe the role and the responsibilities as an

23     unarmed observer in Sarajevo?

24        A.   Yes.  The unarmed observers inside Sarajevo had normally the job

25     to observe from observer posts.  They should, of course, patrol areas,

Page 3334

 1     but normally we were very restricted.  We had to investigate accidents

 2     or -- what could I say, what something happened, impacts, wounded people,

 3     killed people.  You had to investigate and make reports.

 4        Q.   Sir, you indicated that you were observing.  What specific were

 5     you observing?

 6        A.   We were observing military movements but mostly impacts inside

 7     Sarajevo and outgoing mostly mortars from Sarajevo and out of Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   When you say that you were observing mostly impacts inside

 9     Sarajevo, what was impacting Sarajevo?

10        A.   Mostly impacts inside Sarajevo was from artillery and mortars and

11     also what is known as modified air bombs.

12        Q.   Are you aware of who was firing this artillery, mortars, and air

13     bombs?

14        A.   Yes.  Most of the times, we could see from where it was fired.

15        Q.   And predominantly where was this firing coming from?

16        A.   The firing into Sarajevo were -- excuse me, do you mean from

17     which area?

18        Q.   No, who was firing it.

19        A.   Mostly, the firing with artillery and mortars and modified air

20     bombs was fired from BSA-held areas.

21        Q.   Can you please indicate to the Court what does BSA stand for?

22        A.   For me, the Bosnian Serb area.

23        Q.   And, sir, based on your observations, did you learn where the

24     confrontation lines were therein Sarajevo?

25        A.   Yes, of course.  The confrontation line differed sometimes

Page 3335

 1     because of the fightings, but, in brief, we knew every time where the

 2     confrontation line was.

 3             MS. CARTER:  I would like to bring up 65 ter 4448.  And I will be

 4     asking the witness to identify the confrontation lines by marking on the

 5     screen.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we getting the 65 ter?

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             MS. CARTER:  65 ter 4448 is a street map of the entirety of

 9     Sarajevo, and the Prosecution would seek to admit the clean copy into

10     evidence.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

12     number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

14     Exhibit P540.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             MS. CARTER:

17        Q.   Now with the assistance of the usher, I would like you to

18     identify for the Court the confrontation lines that were in place in

19     summer of 1995.

20        A.   Excuse me, it's very long time ago, 1995, and it's very small

21     figures on the map, so I ask to -- could use a help map, my private map,

22     to remember.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I'd like that -- to have the opportunity to

24     review this gentleman's private map before he uses it, so I know what it

25     has on it.

Page 3336

 1             MS. CARTER:  For ease of the Defence counsel, it actually is the

 2     final page of the 2006 statement, which is a highlighted -- or a much

 3     more -- less detailed map than the one that we have present.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With that understanding, there's no problem.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're sure you don't want to see what the

 6     gentleman has.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would like to see it just to verify it, yeah.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 9             MS. CARTER:  If the usher to please tender the copy to Defence

10     counsel prior to him using it.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, I guess you are aware that the Bench

12     doesn't have that.

13             MS. CARTER:  Correct, Your Honour.  This is neither a 65 ter

14     listing nor is it going to be entered into evidence.  It's merely the

15     back page and the witness's own private map that he has created, but

16     we're using the official map that is present on the screen for the

17     markings.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You go ahead.

19             MS. CARTER:  I'm happy to provide a hard copy.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I -- if I might, can ...

21             MS. CARTER:  I'm sorry that I believe that it was the same map.

22     We can certainly put on the ELMO, so the Court can see it so we know what

23     he is marking off the e-court.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If you could -- to make life easier if Carmela

25     can just take a look at the map that she has in her hands because it is

Page 3337

 1     not what I have right here, Ms. Carter.

 2             MS. CARTER:  If we can have the usher give the black and white

 3     copy, the final page of the statement.

 4             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, the map the gentleman has indicated is the

 5     map that he wishes to uses is not the same map that we have been

 6     supplied.  I'm going to hand both maps to the usher so that Ms. Carter

 7     can review them.

 8             MS. CARTER:  I do stand corrected.  The map that the gentleman

 9     does have in his possession currently is more detailed.  However, again,

10     he is merely using it as an aide-memoire to be able to mark the

11     confrontation lines on the official map.  Again, we can certainly use the

12     ELMO so we can all be aware of what he is reviewing.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If somebody would do my the kindness of running

14     me a copy of the map so that have it available, I would appreciate it.

15             MS. CARTER:  That can certainly be done.  If we can have just a

16     moment.  I don't have a copy of it.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith, do I read from what you are saying,

18     that you don't mind the map being used.  As long as you have a copy.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  As long as I have a copy.  If it is of assistance

20     to the witness in terms of his testimony, I have no objection whatsoever

21     to it being used.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             MS. CARTER:  Am I to understand that we can use it currently but

24     as long as we provided it at the break.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

Page 3338

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, that is correct.  And also just so we're

 2     clear, on the record, that the map that has been supplied in the

 3     gentleman's 2006 statement is not the map; and perhaps we can inquire as

 4     to when this map was produced so we have some indication and

 5     understanding of the provenance of this particular map apart from the

 6     fact that he made it.

 7             MS. CARTER:  That would have to come from the witness himself

 8     because it not in my possession.

 9        Q.   Sir, the coloured map that you brought into court today, where

10     does that map come from?

11        A.   This map is made on me for private reasons, to remember the

12     observation posts and to remember approximately confrontation lines.  And

13     it's made, I'm not sure, but long before 2006.

14        Q.   You indicated that you yourself made this map.  Did you keep it

15     in your private collections?

16        A.   Yes, of course.

17             MS. CARTER:  If the coloured map can be provided back to the

18     witness.  And I believe that answers Mr. Guy-Smith's question.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

20             MS. CARTER:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now, sir, using your aide-memoire, if you please mark on the

22     official map the confrontation lines that were present in Sarajevo in

23     1995.

24        A.   Yeah, I'll try.  Anyhow --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness indicated earlier that the map on the

Page 3339

 1     screen is too small.  Can we zoom in a little bit for him to see what he

 2     wants to see.

 3             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, if we zoom in, we won't be able to see

 4     the full confrontation line, and the witness did see the same map

 5     yesterday in a black and white form.  It takes us a little while, but

 6     we'll get there.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You go ahead, ma'am.

 8             MS. CARTER:  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, I'm not very sure where Grbavica is on

10     this map, but BSA-held Grbavica.  Then I have tried to mark the

11     confrontation line as good as I can see the map.  But, anyhow, it's very

12     brief.

13             MS. CARTER:

14        Q.   Sir, can you indicate for the Court within the figure that you

15     drew who held that territory?

16        A.   Excuse me.  I try to explain the airport was so-called neutral

17     area held by UN.

18        Q.   And can you please indicate on that drawing, just write the word

19     "airport" in English to designate that area.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   You've used two acronyms, BSA and ABiH.  Can you please indicate

22     for the Court what they stand for?

23        A.   BSA, for me, Bosnian Serb held area.  ABiH, army BiH.

24             MS. CARTER:  The Prosecution would request a screen-shot of this

25     exhibit, and we tender it into evidence.

Page 3340

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 2     please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

 4     exhibit P541.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 6             MS. CARTER:  If we can now have a clear copy again of P540,

 7     highlighting the grid markings D, E, and F, at 3 and 4.

 8             If we can narrow down on the top left corner a bit more.

 9        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel Brennskag, on the map before you, can you

10     identify the location of the Pofalici team an observation post number 4?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If could you please identify where observation post 4 is located

13     on this map, with the numeral 4, please.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Okay.  I see that you've placed a triangle next to the number 4.

16     Are you indicating that where the triangle is located is where

17     observation post 4 is located?

18        A.   As accurate as is possible.

19        Q.   Did you remain on observation post 4 the entire time, or was the

20     remainder of your team located somewhere else?

21        A.   The team was located in a hired building in -- in -- and it was

22     only two, at the time, at the observation post.

23        Q.   Okay.  If you can please mark with a square where the remainder

24     of the team was when they were not on post?

25        A.   Somewhere where I marked the circle.

Page 3341

 1        Q.   Okay.  So where the circle is, is where the remainder of the team

 2     was, and where the triangle is, is where the observation post 4 is; is

 3     that correct for the record?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5             MS. CARTER:  I'd ask for a screen shot of this map and tender it

 6     into evidence.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 8     given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  This document shall be given Exhibit P542.  Thank

10     you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MS. CARTER:  And thank you to the usher, and I believe that will

13     be the last thing we'll be marking for today.

14        Q.   Sir, you touched on this briefly when discussing the map itself,

15     but I'd like to talk a little bit further about a Pofalici team.  Can you

16     please tell me, how many people were on this team?

17        A.   It differed.  It could be nine, or it could be seven.  It

18     depended because someone was always going out from the team and someone

19     was always coming in.  Old ones going out and new ones coming in.

20        Q.   And you indicated that at time there is was a separation between

21     two people who were on the observation post and the remainder who stayed

22     behind.  I'd like to focus first on the people who were left behind, not

23     on post.  What was their job during the day?

24        A.   Their job were to investigate.  Their job were to patrol.  And

25     their job were to have contact with officials, let's say, health

Page 3342

 1     department, UN observer HQ, and also have some internal administration

 2     job.

 3        Q.   You indicated at times they were serving to investigate.  What

 4     were they investigating and how were they being called out to

 5     investigate?

 6        A.   Let's say if it was an impact inside Sarajevo, we were called out

 7     by the UN observer HQ to investigate the -- the site and also to check if

 8     there were some wounded.  Sometimes we had to go to the hospital to see

 9     the wounded or even go to see the dead ones.

10        Q.   Now moving on to the second job.  You indicated at times they

11     were patrolling.  What area was the Pofalici team patrolling and how did

12     they choose that area?

13        A.   The patrolling was decided from the UN observer HQ inside

14     Sarajevo, but as I said, it was fairly a few patrolling because of the

15     restrictions of movement.

16        Q.   And the remainder of the positions, how did people get chosen for

17     those positions?

18        A.   I'm not sure what you mean.

19        Q.   You indicated that others -- their job was to have contact with

20     officials such as the health department, the UN observer HQ and some

21     having internal administration jobs.  How were people selected for those

22     positions?

23        A.   We were always having a team leader, normally the most senior

24     officer, or he was normally chosen as a team leader from the UNMO or the

25     UN observer HQ.

Page 3343

 1        Q.   When you were selected for one of those positions did you remain

 2     in that position the entire time you were in the Pofalici team or did you

 3     alternate between those positions?

 4        A.   I was not team leader during my time in the Pofalici team.

 5        Q.   No, I'm speaking more if he were chosen to patrol or to

 6     investigate or to do any of those roles, did you do that the entire time

 7     or was it on a case-specific basis?

 8        A.   I did all the jobs on specific basis when I was told to do the

 9     patrolling, told to investigate or going to the OP.  I did all the job,

10     yes.

11        Q.   All right.  Now we'll move to the OP itself.

12             You indicated before that two persons served at the observation

13     post at a time.  Can you please describe how the two people were selected

14     to go to the observation post per day?

15        A.   There were certainly a turn-around list, so everyone had to go to

16     the observer post.  Two people were there 24 hours a time, and then we

17     changed.

18        Q.   Were the two people who served together, were they people who

19     always served in pairs or did the teams, themselves, alternate as well?

20        A.   These alternated.  I didn't say that in the team there were no

21     people from -- no officers from the same nation in same team, and we

22     tried to alternate who was working together also in the OP and also for

23     the investigations.

24        Q.   Where specifically was this observation post, in what type of

25     structure?

Page 3344

 1        A.   It was a normal living house what was hired.  The two elderly

 2     couple who owned it, they placed themselves in the basement to be safe,

 3     and we hired the ground floor, and the first floor where they had a

 4     sleeping room, and on the balcony we had a -- on the balcony, we had the

 5     binoculars to observe.

 6        Q.   Where could you observe from that location?

 7        A.   We could observe Igman, the Igman mountain, to the west; the

 8     airport; Hrasnica; south-east -- south-west of the airport; we could

 9     observe the hills overlooking Sarajevo eastwards towards Grbavica; just

10     downhill to the west, we couldn't see the old airport Rajlovac air field,

11     but we could see a part of the railway line going to Rajlovac railway

12     station.

13        Q.   You've indicated some areas such as eastwards towards Grbavica

14     and that type of thing.  Just for ease of the record, what locations did

15     that -- that include?

16        A.   I'm not sure what you mean.

17        Q.   Okay.  Sir, can you tell me, from that observation post, were you

18     able to see the hills of Dobrinja?

19        A.   The hills above Dobrinja, yes, north of Dobrinja, yes.

20        Q.   Were you able to see the Famos factory?

21        A.   Yes, it was in the south-east of the airport not far away from

22     Grbavica.

23        Q.   Okay.  Were you also able to see Ilidza?

24        A.   Yes, of course.  Yes, of course.

25        Q.   Thank you.  While you were on post, I want to talk specifically

Page 3345

 1     about your work while serving there.

 2             You had touched on before that you were seeing a lot of incoming

 3     fire from the Bosnian Serb army into Sarajevo.  Can you please tell me

 4     what type of --

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That is not precisely accurate.  He had seen a

 6     lot of incoming fire.  It's a bit expansive.

 7             MS. CARTER:

 8        Q.   Sir, what were you primarily seeing from observation post 4?  Who

 9     was firing and where were they firing?

10        A.   We can see who was firing.  We could see -- or mostly who was

11     firing, from where it was firing.  We could see the impacts inside

12     Sarajevo from weapon -- weapons who were -- who were used.  That were

13     used.

14        Q.   With specificity, what were you predominantly seeing in

15     observation post 4?  Who was firing and what were they firing?

16        A.   I saw both parties firing, but mostly the firing was incoming

17     into Sarajevo from BSA-held side.  We could also observe ABiH firing from

18     inside Sarajevo, mostly with -- from mortars, but --

19        Q.   If you can tell me --

20        A.   Excuse me.  But we could -- had problems to see the impacts from

21     the mortars fired from ABiH side.

22        Q.   You indicated that you were seeing mostly the firing from the

23     BSA-held side.  What were they firing?

24        A.   They were firing artillery rounds, mortar rounds, modified air

25     bombs.

Page 3346

 1        Q.   How often did you see incoming artillery rounds and mortar

 2     rounds?

 3        A.   In June, it was a very hectical [sic] time, and it could be up to

 4     150 impacts incoming and impacts inside Sarajevo during 24 hours,

 5     sometimes, and it differed.  But most it could be up to 150.

 6        Q.   Were these 150 rounds hitting civilian targets, military targets,

 7     both or neither?

 8        A.   In my view, both.  Some of the impacts was obviously because of

 9     the fighting between the parties, but some rounds were not impacting like

10     this, impacting -- and it was civilian targets in my view, in my opinion.

11        Q.   What do you base this opinion on?

12        A.   Because it could be single rounds and no -- at my knowledge, up

13     to now, no military targets, and we investigated the impacts, the team or

14     another team, and it was purely civilian wounded or killed.

15        Q.   When an incoming round was being sighted, how was the observation

16     post able to register or log these things?

17        A.   We were always two to agree what we saw and heard.  If we didn't

18     agree, we didn't report.  In this way, we were able to fairly accurate

19     point out the grids where the impact was -- where impact was.

20        Q.   Once agreement was reached, what did you do next?

21        A.   We wrote it down, and normally we reported by radio to the UNMO

22     HQ in the PTT building.

23        Q.   How did you -- you said you reported it by radio normally.  Why

24     only normally and why not always?

25        A.   Because of our safety.  We used normal radio with no codes or

Page 3347

 1     very few codes, and we reported the grids of the impact from artillery;

 2     and, of course, everyone was listening.  And the -- in my military view,

 3     we were sometimes observation post for the artillery of the -- from the

 4     BSA side.  And obviously the ABiH didn't like that.  So they started to

 5     fire at us.

 6        Q.   What do you mean that you were sometimes an observation post for

 7     the artillery fire of the BSA?

 8        A.   To be accurate, at the ground, you need an observation post to

 9     correct the first rounds or impact to hit the place you are supposed to

10     hit.  If I can -- it's a bad explanation, but ...

11             Can I -- an artillery -- from where you fired an artillery, you

12     normally can't see the -- the goal.

13        Q.   And if you can't see the goal, what do you do to correct that, if

14     you didn't hit it?

15        A.   Then the observation post call back to the artillery and tell

16     them how to correct.

17        Q.   Are you indicating that the UN called back the BSA and told them

18     how to correct?

19        A.   No.  Our intention was to mark or -- and send the grid where the

20     impact actually was, and the BSA, of course, they were listening and then

21     they could correct where to fire.

22        Q.   Now I'd like to focus a little bit more about your communications

23     with the UN headquarters.

24             MS. CARTER:  And I would like to bring up 65 ter 8594.

25        Q.   Sir, can you tell me what is this document?

Page 3348

 1        A.   This document is a daily report made by the UNMO HQ to be sent to

 2     Zagreb.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And can you please tell us what days events are being

 4     recorded in the situation report?

 5        A.   In this situation report, everything that is reported from the

 6     observation posts and from the patrols and from the investigations is put

 7     down in a daily report.

 8        Q.   If can you clarify for us, I know the report is dated on

 9     the 19th, but the subject line reads that it is referring to the 18th

10     of June, 1995.  Which days events are being recorded?

11        A.   It's the 18th that is reported.

12             MS. CARTER:  I would now like to move to page 7 of this document.

13        Q.   Sir, I'd like to note down at the bottom where it's talking about

14     the ceasefire violations and firing incidents, if you can please explain

15     to the Court what each of the columns represent in this?

16        A.   I try.  The column to the left is the date and the time the

17     incident happened; and it's time is local time.  That's why the Bravo is

18     put behind the time.

19             Then the next column is from where and who is reporting.  Let's

20     say line number 2 is stated OP 4.  It was my observation post and you

21     also see the map grid behind the -- from where the report is sent.

22             The third column is what happened.  I still used the line 2, for

23     example, 13 explosions.

24             Then column 4 is the origin of fire, from where the fire was

25     coming; and I use an example here, the line 2 again, unknown, because

Page 3349

 1     here, then obviously OP 4, they didn't know exactly from where the origin

 2     of fire.

 3             Then the next column, impact target area, there is noted where

 4     the impact was observed with a grid, example again, line 2.  It's stated

 5     that the impact, the 13 explosions, were impacted in Nedzarici; and you

 6     have a map grid on that.

 7             And the last column, remarks, and in my example, line 2, it is

 8     nothing in line.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't understand the first few columns.  If the

10     witness could please explain them reading what is written there.  He

11     didn't do so.  He started reading what is written there when he talked

12     about 13 explosions.  I don't understand those first two columns.

13             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I do that.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please.

15             THE WITNESS:  Then I start with the first column.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is DTG?

17             THE WITNESS:  Date, time, group.  18 is the date; then we have

18     0035 Bravo.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What does Bravo mean.

20             THE WITNESS:  It's local time.  Zero time in military terms, the

21     Greenwich time; Alpha time is normal time; Bravo time is summertime.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

23             Sorry, what time is 0035 Bravo?

24             THE WITNESS:  Is 35 minutes after midnight.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.

Page 3350

 1             THE WITNESS:  And then the happen something going from that to

 2     0120 Bravo.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's that?  That is 20 past 1.00 in the morning.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And SG-2.

 6             THE WITNESS:  SG-2, it's the abbreviation of an OP or a team.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now what does that SG mean?  Can you tell us what

 8     SG stands for then.

 9             THE WITNESS:  I can't remember, sir.  If you go to the line 2, OP

10     4, it's observation post 4.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mm-hmm.  Yes, I understand that.  But I want to

12     understand SG-2, and I want to understand SI-1, which is below OP 4.

13             THE WITNESS:  It's either an observation post or a team.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And what does -- I can't see that.  It's

15     BP899610.

16             THE WITNESS:  That is a six-figure map degree within 100 metres,

17     within 100 metres accuracy.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  I hope counsel understand what that means.

19     I don't.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Microphone not activated]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, sir, much.

22             Thank you, Madam Carter.

23             MS. CARTER:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Sir, in order to clarify a bit more, you keep saying there is a

25     grid reference that's demoted by the BP followed by six numbers, did the

Page 3351

 1     observer teams and any other teams, did you have a standardised mapping

 2     system that you were looking at?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is a standard military map:  1:50.000.

 4        Q.   So when these grid references are being listed, it's off of a

 5     map, not the map that we were looking at previously, but a map that was

 6     unique to the UN post there; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  It's not the maps that had been shown here, it's a map with

 8     the -- I call it standard military 1:50.000 map.  Standard for every

 9     military and it's also --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

11             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, just for purposes of clarification,

12     and I certainly don't mean to interrupt your examination, Ms. Carter.

13             My understanding is that the observation post was in a particular

14     area and remained there, and that the BP863599, which is the grid number

15     for OP 4 is the grid number where they always were located and that would

16     be found on a particular grid map which we have yet to see on -- it is a

17     static position to identify where the observation post was on a

18     particular military map, on a particular kind of map where they show grid

19     positions.

20             I hope that is of some help.

21             MS. CARTER:

22        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel Brennskag, can you confirm for the Court

23     whether that read something accurate.  Is the fixed position of

24     observation post 4 at the grid reference 863599 that?

25        A.   That is the fixed positions of OP 4 on the hills over Vitkovac.

Page 3352

 1        Q.   Now we also see in the impact and target area, there are also

 2     appear to be grid references, but they don't contain six digits, only

 3     four at times and then others are longer.

 4             What is the difference between a shorter grid reference and a

 5     longer grid reference?

 6        A.   A four-numbered grid reference is within a square of 1.000 metre;

 7     a six-letter or numbered grid reference is within a square of 100 metres.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 9             MS. CARTER:  Does that assist Your Honours, or should I go

10     further with this line of questioning.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, ma'am.  Just carry on with your examining.

12             MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Sir, I'd now like to move to page 8 of the same document.  And

14     just for clarification, I'd like to look at the registering of a single

15     explosion at a 11.46 local time.  And I want to confirm that your

16     observation post registered a shot being fired from the Bosnian Serb side

17     into Dobrinja at that time.

18             Is that a correct reading --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we get the witness read, Madam Carter, instead

20     of you testifying?  We don't know what are you looking at; 11.46 as I see

21     it, the origin is unknown.

22             MS. CARTER:

23        Q.   Sir, can you please explain on the six listings that you had

24     indicated before, can you please explain what does the firing at 11.46

25     mean?

Page 3353

 1        A.   Could you please put the cursor on where you mean?  Oh, yeah.

 2             We are still on the 18th and is stated that at 11.46 local time,

 3     it was observed from OP 4 one explosion from where, unknown, and the

 4     impact was in Dobrinja on the grid reference Bravo Papa, 865564.  And in

 5     the explanation, it is stated that it fired from BSA side.

 6        Q.   If you have a remark that that shot was being fired from the

 7     Bosnian Serb side, why is it listed as unknown about the origin of the

 8     fire?

 9        A.   That's the procedure, because you couldn't -- or the OP, they

10     couldn't specify the grid reference from where, but they could see that

11     the fire came from the BSA-held side.

12             MS. CARTER:  The Prosecution seeks to tender 65 ter 8594 into

13     evidence.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

15     please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

17     exhibit P543.  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             At that point, Madam Carter, would that would be a convenient

20     time for you?

21             MS. CARTER:  Absolutely.  I was about to change topics.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

Page 3354

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Carter.

 2             MS. CARTER:  May it please the Court.

 3        Q.   Sir, in your earlier testimony you've made reference on a few

 4     occasions to modified air bombs, and I now want to turn your attention to

 5     those.

 6             Can you please tell the Court what is a modified air bomb, to the

 7     extent that you know?

 8        A.   Yes.  At first, I have to admit that I'm not an expert on

 9     modified air bombs.  But I have learned that is a -- normally a ballistic

10     missile, which is put on rocket device.

11        Q.   Sir, when you say "a ballistic missile," what specifically does

12     that mean?

13        A.   I'll try to explain.  A ballistic missile get its power from the

14     initial launching and not during its way to the target.  If you put on a

15     rocket device, it can bring the missile longer and take it out of the

16     ballistic movement.

17        Q.   You have indicated the ballistic missile gets its power from

18     initial launching.  Are any of the other items that we've discussed here

19     in court today considered missiles?  You discussed mortars, you discussed

20     artillery rounds.  What is the nature of those items?

21        A.   Those are ballistic missiles.  A rifle bullet is also a ballistic

22     missile.  Got its power from the initial firing only.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.  How many times did you encounter a modified air

24     bomb in Sarajevo?

25        A.   It's hard to say:  4, 5, 6, yeah.

Page 3355

 1        Q.   And this is your personal experience; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  In your work with those certain instances, was there a

 4     certain location where these were fired from?

 5        A.   Yes.  As far as I can recall today, most of those air bomb,

 6     modified air bombs, were fired from the Ilidza area.

 7        Q.   Who controlled Ilidza?

 8        A.   It was, at that time, BSA.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us anything about the accuracy of modified air

10     bombs?

11        A.   It depends on the launcher and the accuracy of putting on the

12     rocket devices.  But normally those modified air bombs, they are not at

13     all useful as a normally weapon in normal war.  It's not accurate --

14     accurate enough.

15             I can compare it maybe from the Middle East, where the -- and now

16     at this times, from Gaza, the Katyusha rockets.  They're not able to fire

17     them to exact target.

18        Q.   In your dealings with these modified air bombs, were you ever

19     responsible for the investigation of such items?

20        A.   Yes.  I especially remember two times.  I was together with

21     colleagues to investigate impacts from modified air bombs.

22        Q.   Can you describe the first of those occasions?

23        A.   It was not that far away from the PTT building on the other side

24     of the main road going east to west in Sarajevo, in a place called

25     Alipasino Polje.

Page 3356

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, just so we're clear, Your Honour, if

 2     we could have a date.  The reason because there are certain unscheduled

 3     incidents that should not be led.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

 5             MS. CARTER:  Certainly and the Prosecution is aware of that.  And

 6     we will not be leading any detail to the reference that is being made.

 7        Q.   Sir, can you identify the date of the first encounter you had

 8     with the modified air bomb.

 9        A.   Yes, I have my notes, and I think I correctly said it was the

10     22nd of June.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is this 1995?

13             THE WITNESS:  1995, yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MS. CARTER:

16        Q.   Now you began describing that investigation and you said that it

17     was a place called Alipasino Polje.  If you could please describe a bit

18     further your investigation.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I do believe this is an

20     unscheduled incident.

21             MS. CARTER:  The unscheduled incident is on 28 June 1995, and it

22     will be not be led.  Two investigations that this witness was part of do

23     not entail that incident.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying, Madam Carter, that the incident of

25     the 22nd of June is a scheduled incident, the one that he is now talking

Page 3357

 1     about.

 2             MS. CARTER:  No, Your Honour, it's neither scheduled nor

 3     unscheduled.  This is merely to show the wide-sped and systematic pattern

 4     as described in the decision of the Court of 31 October 2008.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I tend to disagree.  The decision speaks for

 6     itself.  This is being used for an improper purpose.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't remember the decision.  What does the

 8     decision say.

 9             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, the decision was in relation to the

10     objection made by Defence counsel that leading any evidence of incidents

11     that are not scheduled would be in violation of the 73 bis decision.

12     This Court determined in paragraph 11 of the same decision that the

13     scheduled incidents listed in the indictment need to be read in

14     conjunction with paragraphs 40 to 46 of the indictment; and that's

15     specifically why this witness is being called, which refer to a

16     protracted campaign of shelling and sniping upon Sarajevo, resulting in

17     the killing and wounding of thousands of citizens -- I'm sorry, thousands

18     of civilians.  It follows that in order to prove these broad allegation,

19     the Prosecution must be able to lead evidence of a general nature related

20     to the shelling and sniping campaign against civilians outside of the

21     incidents listed in schedules A and B of the indictment.

22             So we're calling in relation to that specific purpose as opposed

23     to any sort of scheduled or unscheduled incident.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  This is grounds that we've been through before.

25     Both incidents of the 22nd of June and one on July 1995 are mentioned in

Page 3358

 1     the 65 ter summary, which is what the Trial Chamber referred to in the

 2     paragraph above.

 3             MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I would --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't understand what you're saying,

 5     Mr. Guy-Smith.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Which is -- which is this is -- that it is

 7     recognised by the Chamber; that this is it unscheduled incident.  I'm

 8     referring specifically to the incident of the 22nd of June.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  Yes, Madam Carter, did say, yes, it is not

10     scheduled.  But she is saying that the decision said that the Prosecution

11     is entitled to lead evidence on unscheduled incidents to show the

12     widespread and systematic nature of the sniping or -- or of the attack.

13     And I don't have the decision before me, so I can only rely on what she

14     tells me, and I believe her.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  What she quoted from the decision is not -- is

16     not inaccurate.  Which is --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That it's accurate.

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If it's not inaccurate, it must be accurate.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we go to paragraph 10 of the decision, it

21     states:

22             "The Trial Chamber, therefore, agrees with the submission of the

23     Prosecution that the words 'unscheduled incidents' as stated in

24     Rule 73 bis decision refers to unscheduled incidents described as such in

25     the 65 ter witness summaries."

Page 3359

 1             It continues, but that is the point that is of importance.

 2             The Chamber then holds, and I go down to paragraph 15, under

 3     disposition:

 4             "For the forgoing reasons and pursuant to Rules 54 of the rules,

 5     the Trial Chamber decides that the term 'unscheduled incidents' in the

 6     Rule 73 bis decision shall be interpreted as those unscheduled incidents

 7     as such in the Prosecution's 65 ter witness summaries."

 8             And this is an incident which is described in the 65 ter witness

 9     summary.  Because it is described in the 65 ter witness summary which is

10     not the situation we have been in with other incidents it falls within

11     this prohibition.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Within which prohibition?  You say for the

13     foregoing reasons and pursuant to Rule 54 of the rules, the Trial Chamber

14     decides that the term unscheduled incidents in the Rule 73 bis decision

15     shall be interpreted as those unscheduled incidents as such in the

16     Prosecution's 65 ter witness summaries.

17             Now, how do you read this paragraph in?

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We have previously been in the situation where

19     the Prosecution has led unscheduled incidents which are not contained in

20     the 65 ter summaries.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mm-hmm.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And as to those incidents, the Chamber -- the

23     Chamber, over objection, made the determination because they were not in

24     the 65 ter summaries they were incidents which, in fact, could be led.

25     It has been our interpretation that based upon this decision although we

Page 3360

 1     had some difficulty what was said before by virtue of the underlying

 2     decision that we have been fighting with regard to unscheduled incidents

 3     in the first instance, that where the Prosecution has identified an

 4     incident in a 65 ter summary, which is unscheduled, it is not to be led.

 5             MS. CARTER:  If the Prosecution could be allowed to respond to

 6     for clarity for the Court.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes ma'am.

 8             MS. CARTER:  Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith indications regards to that

 9     rule, he is correct.  However, in the 65 ter summary of Brennskag, it

10     falls into three categories.

11             The first paragraph is noted as just basically biographical

12     information; it doesn't have any sort of heading.

13             The second is a shelling and artillery fire; that is what we are

14     we're discussing here, and it reads, I quote:

15             "The witness will speak about use of modified air bombs by the

16     VRS.  He will testify that he saw four or five modified air bombs," and

17     we go on from there which is the evidence being led.

18             The third category in the 65 ter summary indicates unscheduled

19     shelling incident, the TV building incident of 28 June 1995.

20             This Court, in its decision of 31 October 2008, specifically

21     identified that those items that are listed as unscheduled incidents, in

22     this case, the 28 June 1995, cannot be led before the Court; and we

23     certainly have no intention of doing that.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Talk to the 22nd of June, ma'am, what is the

25     status of the 22nd of June incident.

Page 3361

 1             MS. CARTER:  The 22nd June incident falls under the category

 2     shelling and artillery.  It has not been denoted as an unscheduled

 3     incident in violation of the Court's 73 bis order; so we are talking

 4     about apples and oranges here.  We are not leading the evidence that has

 5     been specifically prohibited by the 31 October decision, but we are

 6     leading evidence in regards to shelling and artillery fire to show the

 7     widespread and systematic shelling of Sarajevo.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, you see --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me -- excuse me, Your Honour.

10             I think quite frankly the Prosecution is playing word games to

11     put it simply.

12             Schedule A of the indictment contains nine incidents.  Those

13     incidents do not include the 22nd of June.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  They do include the 1st of July, which is another

16     incident.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, the 1st of July incident would be a

18     scheduled incident that they can lead.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  There will be absolutely not objection, and I

20     will not be rising with regard to that incident.

21             With regard to the 22nd of June, it is an unscheduled incident.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But then Madam Carter read a paragraph --

23     the very first paragraph she read, she said that -- she said that they --

24     she read something to the effect that the Chamber holds -- okay, let me

25     have a look at it.  What paragraph was that?  The first paragraph that

Page 3362

 1     you read, ma'am.

 2             MS. CARTER:  Out of the decision, Your Honour, that would be

 3     paragraph 11.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection is overruled.

 6             MS. CARTER:  If it pleases the Court.

 7        Q.   Sir, now we're moving back to your investigation of 22 June of --

 8     I'm sorry, of 1995.  As much time has passed, if you can begin your

 9     description again:  What was the incident that you investigated on 22

10     June of 1995?

11        A.   It was an incident of an impact in Alipasino Polje.

12        Q.   How did you become aware of the incident?

13        A.   Normally I was not at the observation post, so the team was

14     called from UN HQ, told us about the incident, approximately the map

15     grid, and gave us order to investigate the incident.

16        Q.   What did you find when you arrived on site?

17        A.   It was just in Alipasino Polje.  It's very high buildings.  And

18     outside one of the buildings, it's - what you call it - tarmac road,

19     paved road, and the rocket or grenade has landed on the paved road; and

20     it was one young, very young girl who was killed.

21             When we arrived, almost simultaneously the Bosnian police

22     investigation team also arrived.

23        Q.   Let me clarify just one moment.

24             Now, you have indicated that this was a rocket or grenade.  Is it

25     a rocket, a grenade, or modified air bomb that's at issue?

Page 3363

 1        A.   When we started the investigation, it was fairly soon clear that

 2     this was a sort of modified air bomb.

 3        Q.   And what was your role in this investigation?

 4        A.   Me and my colleague was to clarify the direction from where the

 5     projectile was fired and to see how -- which -- what kind of projectile,

 6     and also to testify what was the impact of the incident, wounded, killed

 7     and so on.

 8        Q.   Now, you've indicated that it was you and your colleague's job to

 9     clarify the direction from where the projectile was fired.  Were you able

10     to determine that?

11        A.   Yes.  It's a certain method to find from where, but it's

12     difficult to -- to find exact place of firing, of course, how far the

13     distance, especially when it's not a -- especially when it's a rocket.

14        Q.   Do you have any indication that it was fired by the Bosnian side,

15     the Bosnian Serb side, or a third party?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter, I think that's a very leading

17     question.

18             Why don't you ask the witness to tell you where it came from,

19     according to his determination.

20             MS. CARTER:

21        Q.   Sir, where did the air bomb come from, according to your

22     determination?

23        A.   At the spot we couldn't decide, but together with other

24     observations, not from me because I was not on the OP, the UN observer HQ

25     as far as I know today determined that this was coming from BSA-held

Page 3364

 1     side.

 2        Q.   And now I would like to move to the second investigation that

 3     were a part of on 1 July, 1995.

 4             Can you please describe that investigation?

 5        A.   We were called on, as the same procedure.  This time it was a

 6     modified air bomb landing in a garden.  It's -- I don't remember the

 7     name, because it is very difficult.  But it's a little bit north of the

 8     main road going east -- west-east in Sarajevo and just east of -- of the

 9     PTT building.

10        Q.   What did you find when you arrived?

11        A.   Huge crater, and the building that belongs to the garden or were

12     damaged, especially the -- the roof and the windows.  The Sarajevan

13     police also arrived, and we were soon clarifying there were no injured

14     and no killed.

15             MS. CARTER:  I'd like to bring up 65 ter 1365.01.

16        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the image before you?

17        A.   Yes, that's the spot.  That's the building.  That's the roof

18     damaged.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MS. CARTER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 1365.01 into

21     evidence.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it be given an exhibit number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P544.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             MS. CARTER:  I would now like to bring up the image 65 ter 1365.

Page 3365

 1        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this image?

 2        A.   Yes, it's the same place.  I see the ladder.  I don't see the

 3     house.  And I see not a good picture of the crater behind the first tree,

 4     between the first tree, I see and the house.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Sir, were there any military targets anywhere near this

 6     house?

 7        A.   I'm not sure, but as far as I know, there were no military

 8     positions there.  That's -- I say I'm not sure.

 9             MS. CARTER:  I would seek to tender 65 ter 1365 into evidence.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

11     number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P545.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MS. CARTER:

15        Q.   Sir, the last question that I have for you is:  Which sides of

16     this conflict were in possession of modified air bombs, to your

17     knowledge?

18        A.   To my knowledge, the BSA had in their possessions and possibility

19     to use modified air bombs.  In my knowledge, I have never seen and never

20     heard that the ABiH inside Sarajevo was in possession of this kind of

21     weapons.

22        Q.   I thank you for your time and your evidence.

23             MS. CARTER:  And I seek to pass the witness.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Carter.

25             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 3366

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

 2             Could we please have P542 up on the screen.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

 4        Q.   While it's coming up.

 5             Good morning, sir.  How are you this morning?

 6        A.   I'm fine.  Thank you.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if that could be enlarged, please.

 8        Q.   You testified that this map identifies, if I'm not mistaken, two

 9     separate places, one where there's a triangle and the letter 4, which was

10     your observation post; and the second being where you were, I take it,

11     either billeted or working when you were not at the observation post;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes, the circle was the accommodation, yes.

14        Q.   If you were to --

15             I have a quick question for the -- for the Madam Registrar, if we

16     are to make a new mark on this now, can we give it a new number?

17     Perfect.

18             Looking at this particular map, on this map, close to your

19     observation post, there was a T-55 tank that was being utilised by the

20     ABiH army; correct?

21        A.   That's correct.  On our way to the OP, we could see, observe, the

22     T55 tank.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  With the help of Mr. Usher, if could you mark the

24     location of the T-55 tank, using the colour red, please.

25        A.   My memory is -- but it should be somewhere here.

Page 3367

 1        Q.   Okay.  Could you mark that circle with the letter T and the

 2     numbers 55.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Now apart from the T-55, which you have noted on the map, looking

 5     at this particular area, do you, as you sit here today, recall any of the

 6     other areas that were army installations of the ABiH?

 7        A.   I'm not sure what you mean.  I knew several places where they had

 8     their offices.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Could you, once again, using the red, mark the first of

10     those areas where you knew they had their offices.

11        A.   I -- I can't recall because it was several places.

12        Q.   Can you mark, as you're looking at the map, any of the areas

13     where you recall that they had headquarters?

14        A.   It was a headquarters somewhere in a building here.

15        Q.   Okay.  Could you mark that with a "ABiH 1," please.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   And apart from that area, do you recall since you mentioned there

18     were several, do you recall any other areas where you, in your capacity

19     as an UNMO observer saw ABiH facilities?

20        A.   I knew they had mortars in an area where there was car wreckage.

21     I'm not sure exactly where it was, but it was somewhere here.

22        Q.   Could you mark the area that you have just designated with a

23     circle with the letter "ABiH M," for "mortars."

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   And apart from those two areas, as you sit here today, do you

Page 3368

 1     recall any other places where there were ABiH facilities or headquarters?

 2        A.   In all respect, it would be too -- it would be to speculate

 3     because it's too long ago.

 4        Q.   Okay, I don't want you to speculate.  As you sit here today, and

 5     as you look at that particular document, could you tell the Chamber to

 6     the best of your recollection - I don't want you to draw anything - how

 7     many other ABiH facilities you recall being observing during the period

 8     of time that you were stationed at observation post 4?  How many, as

 9     opposed to why they were?

10        A.   Excuse me, do you mean offices or positions?

11        Q.   Well, let's do offices first.

12        A.   I can remember, I was in a meeting on two offices.  But I can't

13     recall exactly where they were.  Some were here.  It was an office.

14        Q.   Could you mark with the red pen an approximate area since that --

15        A.   That is very approximate.

16        Q.   Understood.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Could you mark that with the letters "ABiH 3."

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   You said there were two offices.  Did you go to two offices in

21     the same location, or was there another location that you also met?

22        A.   Yeah, but I don't remember.

23        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.

24             Apart from the offices, you mentioned the issue of positions; and

25     independent of the question of confrontation lines which have you been

Page 3369

 1     kind enough to supply us with in a previous map, when you were using the

 2     term positions are you meaning something apart from the designation of

 3     where the confrontation lines were?

 4        A.   No.  I can recall the position of the mortars, as I have marked.

 5        Q.   Okay.  In addition to the position of the mortars, do you recall

 6     any other positions that the ABiH had that you could mark on this

 7     particular map during the time that you were at OP 4?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have that marked as -- moved into

11     evidence as defendant's next in order.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

13     given an exhibit number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D44.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:

17        Q.   You have mentioned that your movement was restricted by the ABiH,

18     in terms of areas where you could go.

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have -- I believe it's 541, I think

20     is the -- P541, I believe, is the original unmarked, up on the screen,

21     please.  I'm sorry, it's 540.  Thank you, Chad.

22        Q.   And while we're waiting for that map to come up, when you were

23     receiving your training with regard to observations, were you at any

24     point in time given as calculations to use either the speed of sound or

25     the speed of light, in terms of how fast the speed of sound is, or the

Page 3370

 1     speed of light is?

 2        A.   I'm not sure what you mean.

 3        Q.   Okay.  In terms of trying to make a determination of origin of

 4     fire or origin of impact, were you ever supplied the actual speed of

 5     sound, as a mechanical formula, a mathematical formula that could you use

 6     for purposes of determining where something came from?

 7        A.   No.  We didn't have that devices as observers.

 8        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the speed of sound -- I'm sorry, with

 9     regard to the speed of light, were you ever given the mathematical

10     formula of the speed of light as something to utilise as an observer, in

11     terms of the point of origin or the point of impact?

12        A.   I have to say no.

13        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever receive any information as an observer with

14     regard to the speed that a mortar shell would travel?

15        A.   Not at that time, in Sarajevo.

16        Q.   Well, same question with regard to air bombs.  Were you given any

17     information concerning the -- the calculated speed with which an air bomb

18     travelled?

19        A.   I was not given that information in -- during my time in

20     Sarajevo, no.

21        Q.   Were you given any information with regard to trajectory paths as

22     a general rule, with regard to, first of all, mortars in -- in an attempt

23     to assist you with regard to your job as an observer?

24        A.   That was a knowledge that I had as officer from the Norwegian

25     army.

Page 3371

 1        Q.   Is that knowledge which you all shared with each other?  Did you

 2     have a chart or some kind of other document that assisted you with regard

 3     to trajectories and arcs and the like?

 4        A.   I'm not sure, but I -- in -- as -- in my remembering, I think the

 5     UN gave us a pamphlet of some information.  But I can't remember exactly.

 6        Q.   Okay.  As you sit here today, you have some memory about that,

 7     but you're not positive about that?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Okay.  With regard to the issue of, once again, trajectory paths,

10     were you supplied with any information concerning the arc of trajectory

11     as a related to the distance from which a particular projectile was

12     fired?

13        A.   Yes.  If I understand you correctly, regarding ballistic

14     missiles, during the time we were investigating an impact, the metal, the

15     angle of the impact could tell us approximately from where and the

16     distance.

17        Q.   Is it your testimony that the -- the angle of impact could

18     indicate the distance of the trajectory?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   When it was a ballistic missile.

22        Q.   I see that the map is up on the screen now, so I'd like to direct

23     your attention to the map.

24             Looking at that map, and I know it is it kind of small, so if

25     it's a bit small we can perhaps try to enlarge it.

Page 3372

 1             But, first of all, looking at the map as it sits there right now,

 2     are you able to identify any of the areas that you were not allowed to go

 3     into by the ABiH since you indicated they restricted your movement?

 4        A.   Yes.  For me it's easy because you are rejected to go to any

 5     places near the confrontation line.

 6        Q.   Okay.  With the help of the usher then.

 7             Once again, using the red pen, could you mark on this document

 8     those areas that you were not allowed to go to by the ABiH?

 9        A.   In all respect, I made briefly a drawing of the confrontation

10     line, and --

11        Q.   Would that be helpful to you, in terms of what I have just asked

12     you?

13        A.   As I said, we were rejected to go anywhere near or close to the

14     confrontation line.

15        Q.   Okay.  I believe the confrontation line was -- map was P541.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have that up on the screen.

17        Q.   You've used the term -- the map will come newspaper a moment.

18     You used the term "near," and since that term is potentially one which is

19     relative, as you're looking at this map right now, where have you drawn

20     the confrontation lines, can you indicate how close you were allowed to

21     get to the confrontation line, in terms of metres or kilometres, first of

22     all, before we place any marks on the map?  Could you tell us about how

23     far you could go?

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   I see you have drawn what seems to be a -- ah.  You have drawn an

Page 3373

 1     arrow which is bisecting a line.

 2        A.   Sorry, and it's approximate.

 3        Q.   I understand.

 4        A.   Yeah.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Would it be fair to say that the areas that -- the area

 6     that is before the -- the straight line that you have drawn is the area

 7     in which you were allowed to go and anything outside of that is an area

 8     where you were not allowed to go.  So you could actually draw a circle,

 9     if you were to draw a circle around that whole area, would that be a fair

10     representation of those areas where you were not allowed to go?

11        A.   Yes, approximately.

12        Q.   Understood.  Could you put somewhere the following two words, "no

13     go" on the map?

14        A.   [Marks]

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry could we have that -- could we have

16     that admitted as defendant's next in order, Your Honour.  I'm sorry my

17     voice dropped.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  It's admitted.  May it please be given

19     an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D45.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't need that anymore.  Thank you.

23             If we could now have P543.  I will be next asking for P543 and

24     page 8.

25        Q.   While we're waiting for that come up, sir, you mentioned the

Page 3374

 1     Famos factory in your testimony.  Could you tell us if you know what was

 2     being manufactured at the Famos factory?

 3        A.   At that time, I didn't know.

 4        Q.   Did you, as a matter of practice, have daily discussions with the

 5     other UNMOs who were at other observation points, so that you all kept

 6     each other abreast of what was going on, independent of the radio traffic

 7     that you told us about?

 8        A.   Not regularly, but we had -- the team leaders had meetings in the

 9     HQ on regular basis and passed on the informations after that.

10        Q.   And some of the information that was passed on; for example, the

11     troop strength of the ABiH?

12        A.   No.  Not as far as I know.

13        Q.   Did you at any point in time receive information as to what the

14     troop strength of the ABiH was during the time that you were in Sarajevo?

15        A.   Do you mean the entire ABiH?

16        Q.   I mean those people who were billeted and fighting in the area in

17     which you were observing.

18        A.   No, I didn't get any exact figures.

19        Q.   Did you get guesstimate figures from any intelligence sources at

20     all?

21        A.   No.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could have page 8 up, please.

23        Q.   You had been asked a question about the time of 11.46 Bravo, and

24     I'd like to talk to you about a number of entries that are on this page

25     to see whether or not we can make some sense of what was occurring.

Page 3375

 1             If we are to start at the time of, let's say, 10.50 Bravo, which

 2     is an entry of OP 4.  It indicate there is two explosions; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Then 23 minutes later, there is another entry; correct?

 5        A.   Which time?

 6        Q.   11.13.

 7        A.   I don't see the whole screen.

 8        Q.   Oh, I'm sorry.  If you were to look -- if you were to look on --

 9     it's five lines down.  It says 1113 Bravo.

10        A.   11.13, yes.

11        Q.   There's another explosion; correct?

12        A.   Yeah.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, between 11.30 and 12.15 there seem to be a number of

14     outgoing mortar rounds; correct?

15        A.   It seems to be, yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  And the entry of 11.46 that you have noted is -- is an

17     entry that occurs during the period of time that there's firing between

18     11.30 and 12.15 outgoing BiH fire; right?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now if we continue to go down, there are seen a series of

21     what I'm assuming, based on this, are unknown firings between 11.46 and

22     12.01; and it seems then if we continue down we have entries at 11.49,

23     12.15, 12.50, 13.05, 13.00 and 13.00 to 13.15.

24             So there seems to be -- if we go even further, but it seems

25     what's going on there is a battle.  I'm asking because it seems there is

Page 3376

 1     firing coming in and there's firing going out?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And that's a kind of thing that you were talking about before,

 4     when you said there were rounds that you observed coming in and there are

 5     rounds that you observed going out.

 6             With regard to the mortars that were going out, could you tell

 7     the Chamber what size they were, if you know?

 8        A.   Please explain.

 9        Q.   Well, what size of mortar was it that was being used by the BiH.

10        A.   Let me clarify the date of 18th, I'm not sure if I was on the

11     observation post.  But mostly, as a general, I know that the outgoing

12     mortars was around 80 millimetres.

13        Q.   Okay.  When you said you were not on the observation post, if you

14     had been on the observation post, were you able to visually make a

15     determination of a size of the a mortar shell by seeing it launched or in

16     the air?

17        A.   No, not seeing it launched in the area.  But as I said, we were

18     aware of mortars positions for ABiH in a junkyard for cars.  And by the

19     sound of outgoing, we could estimate it was around 80-millimetre mortars.

20        Q.   Is that training you received - and by training I don't mean

21     school training but, rather, experience that you obtained while observing

22     that the sound of an 80-millimetre was distinct from the sound of, let's

23     say, for example, a 50-millimetre mortar?

24        A.   Yes, estimate was by experience.

25        Q.   Okay.  Did your unit in OP 4 file a report every day?

Page 3377

 1        A.   I can't tell what my colleagues did.  But normally, when I was

 2     there, we filed the incidents we were observing, yes.

 3        Q.   Was it just as important to recognise and to note a date where

 4     there was no activity as a date where there was activity for purposes of

 5     monitoring what was occurring?

 6        A.   It was not important to -- to file if nothing happened.  We filed

 7     the incidents and what was happen.

 8        Q.   With regard to the issue of cease-fire, did anybody at

 9     headquarters --

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Are we okay or are we having some trouble.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You go ahead while we sort ourselves.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:

13        Q.   Did anybody at headquarters indicate to you, your unit that it

14     was important to know when there was not any mortar activity, because it

15     would indicate that the cease-fire was holding?

16        A.   I'm not sure if I understand you right, but if no reports, either

17     by radio or afterwards by written, there was nothing to -- there were no

18     incidents and no firing.

19        Q.   Okay.  But what I'm asking, is was there a methodology to -- with

20     regard to your unit, was there a methodology whereby headquarters would

21     be aware of the fact that they had a successful day.  There'd been no

22     firing which they then noted down somewhere.  All of the observation post

23     report in, Hey good day, no firing.  The cease-fires is holding.  Because

24     that was just as important as when it wasn't; right?

25        A.   It's obvious when no reports, either by radio or written

Page 3378

 1     statements, no firing.

 2        Q.   So I understand, the practice of the United Nations, with regard

 3     to observations was, as follows:  If no reports were entered, it was a

 4     day of peace?

 5        A.   Yes, but I --

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   Yeah.

 8        Q.   You mentioned --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm done with that exhibit.  Thank you.

10        Q.   You mentioned - if I'm not mistaken - fortunately you were out of

11     Sarajevo, or maybe it was Pale, on 24th of May, and that all of your

12     colleagues had been seized or detained.

13        A.   Yes.  I went out to Pale early morning, the 24th of May, and it

14     was -- and all my colleagues were detained except of the team leader who

15     was on leave earlier and was not there.

16        Q.   And were all of your colleagues detained in response to something

17     that had happened?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And what was that?

20        A.   I think the 25th or 26th of May, NATO first air-strike on BSA

21     ammunition bunkers took place.

22        Q.   And were -- to your knowledge, were your colleagues detained

23     before the NATO strike?

24        A.   Afterwards.  They were detained nearby ammunition bunkers and so

25     on, to -- obviously to -- in order that the NATO would not go further

Page 3379

 1     with the air-strike.  This is my opinion.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Did your colleagues at some point get released?

 3        A.   Yes.  I think the last of my colleagues in my team in Pale was

 4     released 19th of June, I think.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And are you personally aware of who participated in

 6     effectuating the release of your colleagues?  And by that, I mean were

 7     you aware of the negotiations that occurred at higher levels in attempt

 8     to get your colleagues, and ultimately to get your colleagues released.

 9        A.   It was on high level in the UN and high level on the BSA

10     authorities or -- yes.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   As far as I know.

13        Q.   Do you know -- do you know who ordered the detention of your

14     colleagues?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   And apart from the BSA authorities, do you have any personal

17     knowledge - which all I'm asking for here - of any other authorities

18     apart from the BSA authorities being involved in the negotiation of the

19     successful release of those individuals?

20        A.   Not as I remember today.

21        Q.   Fair enough.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I could have but a moment.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank goodness for those about me.

25        Q.   With regard to the issue of mortars once again, and by that I'm

Page 3380

 1     referring to the ABiH army mortar, were you aware of any mortars being

 2     moved from one position to another position during the time that you were

 3     an observer?

 4        A.   We knew that, and also of experience, that when you are firing a

 5     mortar round, or mortars, you move to another position.  We were aware of

 6     that -- the ABiH did so also, but I didn't see with my bare eyes those

 7     movements.

 8        Q.   Would the movement by the ABiH of their mortar position have been

 9     something that would have been transmitted over the radio before you

10     decided to have radio silence concerning mortar issues.

11             So by that what I mean is within -- within UNMO, if mortars were

12     moved from position 1 to 2 by the ABiH, is that something that would have

13     gone on over the radio so that the observers would be in a position to

14     know where to focus their sight lines with regard to either incoming or

15     outgoing fire?

16        A.   In my time as observer, I never heard radio communication about

17     that matter.

18        Q.   During your time as an observer, did you receive any documentary

19     evidence concerning that matter; a written report, for example?

20        A.   Yes.  A British unit with devices to spot the mortar velocity,

21     height, and so on with the rounds were posted not as far -- not far from

22     our OP, and once we saw a sketch declaring from where it has been fired,

23     the impacts, and so on.

24        Q.   Was that sketch made part of your daily report?

25        A.   No, this was purely occasionally because we once visited this

Page 3381

 1     unit.  We didn't see this report regularly.  I don't know if the HQ had

 2     it.

 3        Q.   And was the British unit that you're referring to an UNPROFOR

 4     unit as opposed to an UNMO units?

 5        A.   UNPROFOR unit.

 6        Q.   And did you share information with UNPROFOR regarding incoming

 7     and outgoing fire?

 8        A.   That was the matter of the HQ in PTT.

 9        Q.   Okay.  With regard to your own personal experience, did you

10     personally obtain any information from UNPROFOR to assist you in your job

11     as an observer?  And by "assist you," I'm referring to such issues as

12     mortar placement and mortar movement.

13        A.   In my time as observer inside Sarajevo, I -- we had assistance

14     from UNPROFOR, but I can't recognise that we got that kind of information

15     or assistance, no.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Carter.

19             MS. CARTER:  I have a very brief redirect on two topics.

20                           Re-examination by Ms. Carter:

21             The first one, you were asked today at page 39 about seeing a

22     T-55 tank near your observation post "utilised," was the word that was

23     used.

24             Did you ever see in your time at OP 4 that tank ever fire?

25        A.   No, not at all.  It looks like it was abandoned.  But I didn't

Page 3382

 1     see or hear anything that could tell me that it was firing from that

 2     tank, and it was never moved, as far as I was travelling to and fro OP 4.

 3        Q.   The final topic I'd like to discuss with you is you were asked,

 4     beginning on page 43 about the information you received and how you were

 5     tracking or had the possibility of tracking the trajectory or the origin

 6     of fire or origin of impact of the missiles that you were seeing there in

 7     Sarajevo; so I want to focus your attention to that.

 8             First off, if you hadn't received the items listed by Mr. Smith,

 9     what did you use in order to determine the origin of fire or the origin

10     of impact?

11        A.   Normally, on some places, we saw the origin of fire.  Actually,

12     in the east of Sarajevo, we could, from our OP see the artillery

13     positions of the BSA.

14             We could hear the firing.  Sometimes we only heard and saw the

15     impact, and then we couldn't say the origin of firing.  They were firing

16     with heavy machine-guns and also anti-aircraft guns towards Igman and the

17     Igman road; and they use ammunition that have a light during the

18     trajectory, so we could see the origin of firing, and we could see the

19     impact.

20             The modified air bombs, we could see the smoke tail from the

21     origin of firing and almost halfway, all the way to the target or to the

22     impact.

23        Q.   In your answer you used the term "they"; specifically that "they

24     were firing."

25             Can you please tell me who "they" is?

Page 3383

 1        A.   Yes.  Mostly this was from BSA-held areas, and we, as I tried to

 2     explain, especially one place we could see by our binoculars the

 3     artillery positions.

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             MS. CARTER:  I have no further questions of the witness.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             We will take a break and return at half past 12.00.

 8             Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Lieutenant, that brings us to the conclusion of

13     your testimony.  Thank you very much for taking the time to come and

14     testify.  You are now excused.  You may stand down and please travel well

15     back home.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Saxon.

20             MR. SAXON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The Prosecution does not

21     have another witness for today.  The next witness will be available

22     Wednesday morning.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  In that event -- on Wednesday

24     morning.  We will stand adjourned until Wednesday morning, at 9.00 in the

25     morning, in Courtroom I.

Page 3384

 1             Court adjourned.

 2                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.32 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

 4                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.