Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3585

 1                           Wednesday, 18 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 6                           [French on English channel]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon to -- this is case number

 9     IT-04-81-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic.

10             Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Could we have appearances for

12     today, starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

14     everybody in and around the courtroom.  Mark Harmon, Barney Thomas,

15     Carmela Javier, and today we are joined for the first time by Inger de Ru

16     for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Welcome Inger de Ru.

18             Thank you so much.  And for the Defence.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Perisic is represented today by

20     Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, Novak Lukic, Chad Mair, Milos Androvic,

21     Tina Drolec, and Daniela Tasic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Pursuant to Rule 15 bis, Judge David still

23     indisposed.

24             Good afternoon, sir.  Did you have a good rest last night, are

25     you well this morning?

Page 3586

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 2     continued] ...  with my back last night.  I have a herniated, disk but I

 3     feel better today.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It looks like there's a cross line on the

 5     channels.  We are hearing the French interpretation instead of the

 6     English interpreter operation.  I'm on channel 4.

 7             Okay I'm told it's being attended to.  Just to remind you, sir,

 8     that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of

 9     your testimony yesterday to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

10     else but the truth.  Remember that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember perfectly.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And for the record, are we in closed session?  May

13     the Chamber please move into closed session.  I thought we had to be in

14     closed session for the witness to come in.  Oh, okay, there's a screen

15     behind.

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

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Page 3587

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             MR. THOMAS:  Before I begin can I check, Your Honours, that all

21     the necessary voice and image distortion is in place for today.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you want to check?

23             MR. THOMAS:  Just that we are good to go on the image and voice

24     distortions here.

25             Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 3588

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. THOMAS:

 3        Q.   Sir, we have another materiel list on the screen in front of us.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I just want you, please, to look at the materiel that has been

 6     provided and take us through what those items are, please.

 7        A.   Under number 1, 7.62 millimetre round for an automatic and

 8     semi-automatic rifle and PM, machine-gun.  A round 12.7 millimetre, then

 9     a shell, 60 millimetre shell impact, mortar shell, and 82 millimetre

10     mortar shell impact.

11        Q.   If we just scroll across to the right on both documents in B/C/S,

12     see that just under 2 million rounds have been provided on this occasion.

13     Do you see that?  Do you see that, sir?

14        A.   Yes, I see that.  That's in the first box.  1.997.525 rounds.

15     The second box says 9.984; the third box, 192; and the fourth box, 1.535.

16        Q.   Just so we can have some sort of image of that, is this a large

17     shipment, what does 2 million rounds and 1500 mortar shells look like?

18        A.   If we assume that a packaging of 7.62 ammunition, one case

19     consists of 1.260 rounds or 1.120 rounds.  They are different packaging.

20     And we can, actually, if we take this figure, we can divide it by the

21     number of rounds per case and then we can determine what the tonnage is.

22     But this is a large delivery, yes.

23        Q.   Are we talking multiple truckloads?

24        A.   Yes.  Must be several.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, could we please tender

Page 3589

 1     that document as an exhibit.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

 3     an exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 5     Exhibit P583.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             Mr. Registrar, can we please have 65 ter number 11064 on the

 9     screen, please.

10        Q.   Again, sir, can you simply tell us the items that are being

11     supplied?

12        A.   Under 1, we have a mortar round, an 82 millimetre mortar round,

13     and then a 60 millimetre mortar round.  Then following that is a shell, a

14     90 millimetre shell for self-propelled gun, M-36.

15             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If that could please be

16     tendered as an exhibit.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see the quantities also.  Can we scroll to

18     the right, please.  Thank you.  They are admitted.  May it please be

19     given an exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P584, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             MR. HARMON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number 01161 on the

24     screen, please.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's 11061.

Page 3590

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   Sir, you will see a reference to the General Staff of the VJ, and

 3     then in brackets "Kremna".  I'm not sure that is a reference we've had so

 4     far.  Can you explain what Kremna is a reference to.

 5        A.   Kremna also appeared on the first list, and I don't know if it

 6     was also on the second list.  It is a depot in Serbia.  I think it's

 7     close to Uzice.  I know because I drove by there, and I know that it's on

 8     the right-hand side of the road, the weapons depot.

 9        Q.   It's in Serbia, sir?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He said so.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  If we could please tender that as an

13     exhibit, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted into evidence.  May it please be

15     given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P585.  Thank you, Your

17     Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  If we could please have

20     65 ter 00827 on the screen, please.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  00827.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

23        Q.   Now, sir, here I'm interested in the materiel that is being

24     supplied.  Could you help us with that, please.

25        A.   Under 2, we see a 152 millimetre round for a Howitzer, D-20.

Page 3591

 1     Then below that we can see a contact-fuse round.  Under that I can't see,

 2     and then up front it says rockets grad.  That's higher above.  I think

 3     that the JNA did not have these rockets.  This is something that the

 4     Romanians or Hungarians had, but this -- these rockets were 128

 5     millimetre calibre in the JNA with us.  I cannot see the last box.  I

 6     think it's some kind of shell because it says that it's a contact action

 7     shell.  And also below that contact action or contact fuse round for M1,

 8     155 millimetre; it's probably a Howitzer or a gun.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, could we just scroll across to see the

10     quantities, please.

11             And, Your Honours, if that could please be tendered as a

12     Prosecution exhibit.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

14     number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P586.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number 00782 on the

19     screen, please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am tardy.  I

22     apologise, but I have a comment.

23             In the B/C/S under 12 there is nothing entered, and in the

24     English version the word Paracin appears.  If Mr. Thomas agrees with this

25     comment of mine, we can remain at this number, but I just want to say

Page 3592

 1     this for the record.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But it looks like what is written under 12 in the

 3     English version is an interpretation of what is written in B/C/S,

 4     military post MF04, I don't know what VPE stands for in B/C/S.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, I think now we have a new

 6     document already.  If we could just go back to the previous document,

 7     please.  That's 827, 65 ter.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... do you have any

 9     objection on this one.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  Yes, I don't have any

11     objection to this document.  To the previous one, I do.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Yes, Mr. -- finish with this onem, and then

13     we can go back to the previous document, Mr. Thomas.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

15             Thank you, that's what I was looking for.

16        Q.   Sir, if you look, first of all, there's no name and address of

17     sender, but do we see a reference to the place being Belgrade?

18        A.   We have military post 9170-54 Belgrade, that's a military post in

19     Belgrade.  That's on the left-hand side.  This is filled by the person or

20     organ issuing supplies.

21        Q.   If we scroll down, we can see the materiel that is being supplied

22     which appears to be --

23        A.   These are spare parts, I think.  On top of the list it says RD

24     which means spare parts, some small axles, glass and some elements.

25        Q.   Below that do we see a reference to a decision of the Chief of

Page 3593

 1     General Staff of the VJ?

 2        A.   If you can just scroll it back to the left so I can read the

 3     whole thing.  It says that it is issued pursuant to the decision - and

 4     then I couldn't see.  Oh, yes - of the Chief of the Main Staff and then

 5     the number, confidential number of June 2nd, 1994.

 6        Q.   And that's the Chief of the Main Staff of which army?

 7        A.   The Chief of the Main Staff, I think it's the Yugoslav Army, VJ.

 8     Although, the Yugoslav Army had a General Staff whereas the

 9     Republika Srpska army had a Main Staff.  The VJ had the General Staff.

10             MR. THOMAS:  Mr. Registrar, perhaps we can scroll across on the

11     -- to the right of the B/C/S version so that we can be clear about this,

12     please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, it says of the

14     Yugoslav Army, but the problem is it says Main Staff, whereas in

15     Yugoslavia it was called the General Staff.  And I think this is just

16     printing error or typing error of the administrator who prepared this

17     list.

18             MR. THOMAS:

19        Q.   Well, is the error in relation to the use of the term Main Staff,

20     or is the error in relation to the use of the term VJ?

21        A.   The use of the VJ in the -- points to this being the Yugoslav

22     Army, but my only problem is that in the Republika Srpska army, they

23     called it the Main Staff, whereas in the Yugoslav Army it was called the

24     General Staff.  The only problem is that these initials in B/C/S, GS, are

25     a short form for General Staff, so you could interpret it as

Page 3594

 1     General Staff or as Main Staff in B/C/S, "general stab" or "glavni stab."

 2        Q.   All right.  But in any event we know that the source was military

 3     post 917054 in Belgrade; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We also know that according to the B/C/S version

 6     it came from the General Staff of the VJ because GS stands for

 7     General Staff as you explained.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, it could stand for

 9     General Staff or Main Staff, glavni, general, or ...

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought you said GS stands for General Staff in

11     B/C/S, so the mistake is only in the translation in the English version,

12     but otherwise the original refers to the General Staff.  Doesn't it do

13     so, sir?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  GS.

15             MR. THOMAS:

16        Q.   Sir, just staying where we are at the moment, if you look up to

17     the name and the address of the receiver, please.

18             MR. THOMAS:  And if we can scroll across to the right on the

19     English.  Just pause.  And upwards, please, Mr. Registrar.  Thank you.

20        Q.   We see the 30th personnel centre entered as the recipient.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What was the 30th Personnel Centre?

23        A.   The 30th Personnel Centre was the centre military post 3001 that

24     handled officers and for awhile civilians, all their personnel files.

25     Civilians who were employed in the former JNA, and who were on the

Page 3595

 1     payroll from -- on the payroll from Serbia.

 2        Q.   And where were these personnels serving?

 3        A.   They were serving in the VRS.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.

 5             Your Honours, if that document could please be tendered as an

 6     exhibit.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just have a question before this

 9     document is entered into evidence.

10             In the 65 ter package for this document there were four pages.

11     But according to me this is not a single document, so I would just like

12     Mr. Thomas to explain whether he is only moving the first two pages to be

13     entered into evidence, because as far as I could tell these four pages

14     were four different documents.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

16             MR. THOMAS:  The document does comprise four pages, four lists of

17     similar materiel.  I wasn't intending to go through each of them.  The

18     details are similar, Your Honours, but I would want to tender the whole

19     document, the whole exhibit into evidence.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In that case, I would object because

21     I think that it's a document that is not a single document.  These are

22     completely different documents.  So if Mr. Thomas would like to tender

23     all the documents, then I would like him to go through each document with

24     the witness because I believe that they are not all -- not all the pages

25     constitute a single document.

Page 3596

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There's an objection, Mr. Thomas.  Do you want to

 2     tender in documents that have not been seen by the witness?

 3             MR. THOMAS:  I can rectify that, Your Honours.

 4             Before we tender this document, could we please go to the next

 5     page in each version, Mr. Registrar.

 6        Q.   Sir, do we again see supplies to the 30th Personnel Centre.  And

 7     if we scroll down we'll see reference to the materiel and also the order

 8     of the Chief of the General Staff of the VJ upon which the supply has

 9     been executed.

10             MR. THOMAS:  If we could scroll down, please, Mr. Registrar, on

11     both documents.  And to the left on the -- thank you.

12        Q.   Is that correct, sir?

13        A.   It says here that these items are being issued at the request of

14     the Chief of the General Staff.  These are some articles, perhaps these

15     are some barrels, are they barrels for artillery weapons or something?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have checked, and these four

18     documents are actually a single document, so I withdraw my objection

19     because the fourth page is actually a summary of the previous three

20     pages, so it's of a different format, and that's what confused me a

21     little bit.  So I withdraw my objection.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

23             Are you now tendering, Mr. Thomas?

24             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  The documents are admitted.

Page 3597

 1     Can they please be given an exhibit number as one document of four pages.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 3     Exhibit P587.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas, Mr. Lukic has indicated that he has

 5     something to raise with the previous document.  Would you like to go back

 6     to that document.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  I can do that, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  I think that was P586.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

11             MR. THOMAS:  And I accept, Your Honours, that there's no entry in

12     the B/C/S in box 11 stating Paracin.  That is something that appears in

13     the English translation, and it would appear shouldn't be there.  And on

14     that basis, I'm prepared to accept that.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's fine.

16             Mr. Lukic, you had referred to box 12.  You meant to say 11?

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's column 11, and Mr. Thomas

18     understood me correctly, so there are no more remarks or objections to

19     the translation of the document.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And you are happy with it?  Okay.

21     Thank you.

22             You may proceed, Mr. Thomas.

23             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number 00957 on the

25     screen.

Page 3598

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   Sir, you will see that the receiver is the 30th Personnel Centre

 4     once again?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What materiel is supplied to the 30th Personnel Centre?

 7        A.   7.62 bullet for an automatic or semi-automatic rifle, and it can

 8     also be used for a machine-gun, it's not written here, but it was the

 9     same type of bullet or round that was used for machine-guns.

10        Q.   How many rounds?

11        A.   350.280.

12        Q.   Are you surprised to see the 30th Personnel Centre being named as

13     a recipient for 350.000 rounds of ammunition?

14        A.   Well, it's not clear to me in all of these lists that went

15     through the 30th Personnel Centre, I'm not sure what this is about.

16     Whether they had sent the ammunition papers to the 30th Personnel Centre,

17     and then the 30th Personnel Centre subsequently issued fresh papers for

18     individual units.  Perhaps that is how it was done, but it is a little

19     odd.  I don't know whether it was a section in the -- that was part of

20     the command that maintained some kind of administrative records.  I

21     really -- I really don't know.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If that could please be

23     tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

25     please be given an exhibit number.

Page 3599

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This will be Exhibit P588.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             Mr. Registrar, if we could please have Exhibit number 00486 on

 5     the screen, please.  That's 65 ter number 00486.

 6        Q.   Once again, sir, do you see the 30th Personnel Centre as the

 7     receiver?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And do we have 296.100 rounds of 7.9 millimetre ammunition on

10     line 1?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And 270.000 rounds on line 2?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What is the entry on line 3?

15        A.   It says Maljutka.  It's an anti-armour rocket that was fired by

16     an operator used for the destruction of tanks, armoured vehicles,

17     bunkers, APCs and so on.  Some Maljutka were also place d on armoured

18     personnel carriers and choppers.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, if this document could

20     please be tendered as an exhibit.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Again, I would like to ask Mr. Thomas

23     before you make your decision if this document has two pages, because in

24     the 65 ter document, it seems that is these are identical pages in the

25     B/C/S that are put together as one document, so in that case I would

Page 3600

 1     object.  Perhaps we can place them on the ELMO if the Prosecutor intends

 2     to tender them just to make sure if these are completely identical

 3     documents.  Just to check that it's not two materiel lists but only one.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

 5             MR. THOMAS:  I accept that it's only one, sir.  I think the

 6     easiest way to deal with that is to simply tender page 1 of the exhibit

 7     that we have on the screen.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.

 9             Can we scroll both documents to the right, please.

10             Sir, I notice that on the B/C/S version towards the very right

11     end of the screen, there's a lot of handwritten markings there.  Can you

12     read that for us because I don't see it on the English side.  Are you

13     able to read that?  I see 562.000 and then 200.  I don't know.  Can you

14     read that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is most probably once the

16     ammunition or the rounds were delivered pursuant to the materiel lists.

17     It's possible that the quantities stated did not arrive, so the operator

18     received this number.  He added all the numbers up.  This is for

19     number 1.  For Article 3 it should have been 46 Maljutkas, but it says

20     minus 20, meaning that he didn't receive 46, but he received 20 less, so

21     probably the person who was receiving the shipment counted them up.  This

22     is probably his note, the person who received the goods saying how many

23     of the goods he received.  And I think this number here, 576.000 is the

24     sum of 296.100 and 270.900, and that's then what came out, less than

25     200.000.

Page 3601

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  The document is admitted into

 2     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  Page 1 of document 65 ter

 4     number 00486 shall be given Exhibit P589.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             Mr. Registrar, can we please have 65 ter number 00881 on the

 8     screen, please.

 9        Q.   Sir, you will see the receiver as being VP 7469 Zvornik.  Was

10     that in Serbia --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Was that in Serbia or the Republika Srpska?

13        A.   This is in Republika Srpska.

14             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If that document could

15     please be produced as an exhibit.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

17     please be given an exhibit number.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

19     Exhibit P590.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number 01182 on the

23     screen.

24        Q.   Sir, you will see an entry for the name and address of sender.

25     Can you tell us what that is?

Page 3602

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  I'm not able to hear the witness.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military post 41, and then 0-00,

 3     place Vrdnik, that would be the depot, and the dispatcher is the main

 4     command Novi Sad, and then it also says military post Vrdnik.

 5             MR. THOMAS:

 6        Q.   And where is Vrdnik?

 7        A.   Vrdnik is probably somewhere in Vojvodina near Novi Sad because I

 8     can see that the command is in Novi Sad, so it could be a small town or a

 9     village near Novi Sad.

10        Q.   Serbia or Republika Srpska?

11        A.   In Serbia, specifically Vojvodina, the autonomous province of

12     Vojvodina, which is normally part of Serbia.  It says Novi Sad here at

13     the top, we have it there.

14        Q.   Where we have been talking about Serb facilities as being the

15     source of this materiel, just so that we are perfectly clear, which army

16     would all of these Serb facilities be subordinated to or part of?

17        A.   From the review of all these materiel lists, all these facilities

18     and places were in the territory of Serbia under the jurisdiction of the

19     Army of Yugoslavia, the VJ.  Except for the maintenance repair depot in

20     Kragujevac.  I don't know if that was under the jurisdiction of the VJ,

21     some of the firms were working such as Pretis Vogosca in their capacity

22     as half civilian, half military facilities.

23             So in that case I'm not quite sure.  There were a lot of these

24     maintenance and repair depots, and they mostly all worked for the army.

25     But I don't know if they were directly subordinated to the General Staff

Page 3603

 1     or to the federal Secretariat for national defence, or perhaps they were

 2     directly subordinated to the chief of the General Staff, I don't know.

 3        Q.   Those are the repair institutes you are talking about?

 4        A.   Yes, because the federal Secretariat for national defence is like

 5     the Ministry of Defence, something to that effect.  So these maintenance

 6     and repair depots and military equipment producing firms, I don't know if

 7     they were subordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia or to the federal

 8     Secretariat.  I don't know.  I really don't know.

 9        Q.   And if I understand what you've told us, the only one of those we

10     have referred to is Kragujevac; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, but we have it here that it was issued pursuant to an order

12     of the General Staff, and not on the basis of a request --

13        Q.   Just pause.

14        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... from the ministry or the

15     federal Secretariat.

16        Q.   Just pause for a moment.  The only repair institute that we have

17     spoken about so far when we've been looking at these delivery -- these

18     materiel sheets today and yesterday has been Kragujevac; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  The other facilities that we have seen as geographically

21     located in Serbia were not repair institutes; is that right?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   And those were subordinated to the VJ; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   If we look now at the document that is on our screen, if you look

Page 3604

 1     at the date at the top left and at the top right, we see that there is no

 2     date entered in that part of the document; is that correct?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   Nevertheless, if we scroll down in the English version, just to

 5     there, and if you look at the reference to the order in the original

 6     version, do we see a reference there to --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Just wait for my question.  Do we see a reference there to a

 9     decision of the General Staff dated 9/12/1993?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.

12             Your Honours, if we could tender that document as an exhibit,

13     please.

14        Q.   Sorry.  Finally just actually down where there has been a receipt

15     signature, we see the date 14th of December, 1993; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, sir.  If we could please produce that

18     document as a Prosecution exhibit.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted.  May it please be given

20     an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This will be Exhibit P591.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I didn't wish to state my objection

24     until the end of this line of questioning, but in future I would ask that

25     this whole line of questioning put by Mr. Thomas involved the witness

Page 3605

 1     only reading what he saw on the document.  Mr. Thomas said there's no

 2     date, the witness confirmed.  Mr. Thomas said can you read the date of

 3     the Chief of General Staff; he read it, and that's how the document was

 4     tendered.  I think that this manner of questioning of this witness for

 5     this particular type of document is not really necessary.  The witness is

 6     simply reading the document.  I have nothing against questions such as

 7     where was such and such a place or location, and that kind of question,

 8     but in this case the witness really is just reading from the document.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

10             MR. THOMAS:  I accept my friend's comments, sir.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  Thank you so much.

12             You may proceed.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number

14     01183 on the screen.

15        Q.   Sir, can you just help us with the materiel that has been

16     supplied on this occasion?

17        A.   On this occasion we had 7.62 millimetre rounds for automatic,

18     semi-automatic, and machine-guns.  This is under 1.  Then we have 7.62

19     rounds for pistols and machine-guns.  Then also we have a round for the

20     PAT M55 tank, and then also PAT M53/59, this is probably also a

21     20 millimetre round for an anti-aircraft gun.  We don't have anything in

22     the top boxes.  We only have the name of the VJ and also we have --

23        Q.   Just pause.

24        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... the military post.

25        Q.   Sir, that's fine.  I only asked you about the materiel that's

Page 3606

 1     being supplied.  Please just answer the questions I pose to you.

 2             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Could we please tender

 3     that document as an exhibit.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.

 5             May it please be given an exhibit number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

 7     Exhibit P592.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             Mr. Registrar, could we please have Exhibit 65 ter number 1181 on

11     the screen, please.

12        Q.   The details that we have been looking for so far appear on this

13     document and require no further explanation, but I just wanted to ask you

14     about box number 3 in this form where there's reference to a contract

15     number.  Do you see that?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could you scroll the -- contract number.  Thank

17     you.  It's okay.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The box is empty in that box for

19     the contract number.

20             MR. THOMAS:

21        Q.   What would usually go in there?

22        A.   If there was a contract, then you would enter the contract number

23     signed between the Kragujevac maintenance and repair depot, the unit, and

24     the person who orders the equipment, so then you would have contract

25     number such and such.

Page 3607

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, if we could move to

 2     page 2.

 3        Q.   And can you tell us, please, what materiel is being supplied

 4     there.

 5        A.   Under 1, 152 millimetre round contact fuse for the D20 Howitzer.

 6     And 130 millimetre round, it's a contact fuse shell for the

 7     130 millimetre gun.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.

 9             Your Honours, if that document both pages could be tendered as an

10     exhibit, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a problem.  Perhaps we can

13     scroll down the B/C/S and the English version so that we can look at

14     box 36.  In the B/C/S version it says materiel taken by Lakic Milorad,

15     and I don't think that the same thing is said on the English and the

16     B/C/S version because it says LPRM 5191, and I don't think the same thing

17     is said in the English translation.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

19             MR. THOMAS:  Well, I'm happy to MFI that document, sir.  I

20     couldn't comment.  If my learned friend can suggest a way through for us,

21     I can say that the Prosecution doesn't place reliance upon that

22     particular notation, and I'm prepared to accept what my learned friend

23     says is in the B/C/S version if that is sufficient for our purposes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe I'm not just quite sharp, but I can't see

25     this LPRM 5195 even on the B/C/S.  Under box 36, you said, Mr. Lukic?

Page 3608

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] At the bottom of the first page,

 2     Your Honour, what it says in column down there, column 36, it says VSR,

 3     as I said, M, and so on and so forth.  I assume -- and I can put this in

 4     the cross-examination.  I assume that this is either the marking of the

 5     vehicle or something that has to do with the personal ID, but it's not a

 6     marking of the Army of Republika Srpska as it says in the English

 7     translation.  Perhaps Mr. Thomas can freely clarify that with the

 8     witness.  As far as I'm concerned, what it says in the English

 9     translation it seems to be a an abbreviation of the Vojska, the Army of

10     Republika Srpska.  That's what it looks like.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, do you see on this page now it looks like the

12     writing is identical.  Is this the same writing?  There's reference to

13     M 5191.  And in the B/C/S they say BCP, but then that side they say VSR,

14     Army of Serbian Republic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, all that is an abbreviation, but

16     the VSR in English it says Army of the Serbian Republic.  But this

17     abbreviation does not stand because in B/C/S it would be VRS.  So I

18     assume that the explanation given here by the translator, that this is

19     actually an abbreviation for the Army of Republika Srpska is wrong.  That

20     is simply all that I'm trying to point out.  The numbers are okay.

21     That's not at issue.  This handwriting is in the Cyrillic script, and it

22     says in Cyrillic VSR.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have heard that, how do you respond,

24     Mr. Thomas?

25             MR. THOMAS:  I must say, my friend makes a compelling argument, I

Page 3609

 1     can't comment on it, though, sir.  I think that's an exhibit we'll have

 2     to mark for identification and resolve finally one way or the other.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then we'll have it in and mark it for

 4     identification, please.  Can we give it an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

 6     Exhibit P593, marked for identification.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             And Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number 01188 on

10     the screen, please.  I think we will need page 2 in the B/C/S and page 3

11     in the English.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             MR. THOMAS:  It's on.  Page 2 in the B/C/S and page 3 in the

14     English.

15        Q.   Now, sir, is the military post of the sender shown as 8236, and

16     the place being Bogovadja?

17        A.   Bogovadja.

18        Q.   The reference I want to take you to is down below the materiel

19     supplied.  We can see it in both versions as they appear on the screen.

20     The very last line where there is reference to the decision of the Chief

21     of Staff of the VJ, do you see that, dated 20th of September, 1995?  Do

22     you see that?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Can you tell us what that says and what it means.

25        A.   Just a moment, let me just focus on this and read the entire

Page 3610

 1     text.

 2             What it says here is that 100 millimetre rounds for a T-12 gun

 3     have been taken over, that's what it says there.  And it also mentions

 4     pursuant to which order and on what date.  And then at the bottom it says

 5     these items should be returned on the basis of the decision of the Chief

 6     of Staff -- Chief of the General Staff.

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, if that document could

 8     please be tendered.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a problem with the

11     translation, Your Honour.  Although the interpreters have just confirmed

12     the same thing that was translated into English in the text.  What the

13     witness has said right now, I would like to read now in Serbian what he

14     has said:

15                 "The items should be returned on the basis of the decision of

16     the NGS VJ."

17             According to me, this word as translated into English is not

18     legally correct, but maybe we can leave this for later on.  I think the

19     word "razduzenje" has not been properly translated or interpreted as

20     "returned" because "razduzenje" does not mean to return, it means -- and

21     I have to explain the word.  This means that a person who has an item now

22     forwards that item or delivers it to someone else.  So that is my

23     understanding of this word.  I think the interpretation and translation

24     are wrong.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say it's not legally.

Page 3611

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say it's not legal [Previous translation

 3     continues] ... translation.  Is it linguistically correct?

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, this is a specific term in our

 5     language, and I think that also in linguistics there is another word, not

 6     only in the legal sense.  Because we have a word return -- we have a word

 7     for return which is "vratiti", but "razduzenje" is a totally different

 8     word, and it means something else.  Both linguistically and legally.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I've just heard a suggestion here

11     that the correct word in English would be liquidation.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  In military terminology this means return

13     equipment issued.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think these are minor

15     errors, and I think it's important, otherwise I wouldn't really have any

16     comments or objection.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, I know you are listening to the B/C/S

18     interpretation.  The interpreter has told us what that word means in

19     military terms in English.  I don't want to get into a debate with you as

20     to what the interpreter said.  I note, however, that the person who

21     translated this document here said "returned."  And when the interpreter

22     interpreted what the witness said, she also said "returned."  Having said

23     that, I ask you, Mr. Thomas, do you have any comment?

24             MR. THOMAS:  Well, sir, I was going to move on to the next page

25     in the same document which has the same problem at least so far as I can

Page 3612

 1     see.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's deal with the problem first before you go to

 3     the next page, then.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  And I suggest that we mark this document for

 5     identification.  We will get an official translation, and we can take it

 6     from there.  I don't see a means of being able to resolve the conflict

 7     now.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Are you at the stage of

 9     tendering, or you want to go to the second page?

10             MR. THOMAS:  We'll go to what would be the third page now, Your

11     Honour, in the B/C/S and two pages further on in the English.

12        Q.   And, sir, can you confirm that we have a similar reference in

13     terms of action that is to be taken based on the decision of the Chief of

14     General Staff in 22nd of September, 1995?

15        A.   Could you please scroll it up a bit.  I can't see.  The materiel

16     list, if we can scroll it up.  032930

17             THE COURT:  The English one, please.

18             MR. THOMAS:  It would be on the next page of the English version,

19     please, Mr. Registrar.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the same issue as in the

21     previous document.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, sir.

23             Your Honours, could we tender, please, marked for identification

24     pages 3 to 6 of the English and 2 to 3 of the B/C/S.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Those pages, 3 to 6 of the English and 2 to 3 of

Page 3613

 1     the B/C/S are admitted into evidence.  May they please be given an

 2     exhibit number and marked for identification.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

 4     Exhibit P594, marked for identification.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could we please have Exhibit 65 ter number 01189

 8     on the screen.

 9        Q.   We see there a reference to military post, the receiver's

10     military post as 7111, but the reference H. Pijesak.  Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What is that a reference to?

13        A.   Yes, Han Pijesak was a barracks before the war.  During the war,

14     there was a barracks there.

15        Q.   After the formation of the VRS, who occupied those barracks?

16        A.   I think it was used by the Drina Corps of the VRS, the Army of

17     Republika Srpska.

18             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, if we could tender --  I'm

19     sorry, if we could move on to -- sorry, Your Honours, if I could just

20     have one moment quickly.  If page 1 of that document could please be

21     tendered as an exhibit.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Page 1 of this document is admitted into evidence.

23     May it please be given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 1 of this document shall be given

25     Exhibit P595.  Thank you.

Page 3614

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  And would that be a

 2     convenient moment, Mr. Thomas?

 3             MR. THOMAS:  I was going to suggest, sir, there's one more of

 4     these left, and then we can finish open session and resume back in closed

 5     session after the break.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How long will it take you to finish?

 7             MR. THOMAS:  Less than 2 minutes, sir.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Go ahead.

 9             MR. THOMAS:  Can we please have 65 ter number 01193 on the

10     screen.

11        Q.   Do you see again, sir, that reference to VP 7111, Han Pijesak?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And references to the facilities that you mentioned before in

14     Serbia as the sender?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, if that could please be

17     tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's so admitted.  May it please be given an

19     exhibit number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P596.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

22             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We can break.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.  We'll take a break and come back

24     at 4.00.  Court adjourned.

25                           --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

Page 3615

 1                           --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Thomas.

 3             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Could I confirm that we

 4     are in closed session, please.

 5                           [Closed session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3616











11 Pages 3616-3620 redacted. Closed session.















Page 3621

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             MR. THOMAS:  Just while the blinds are coming up, Your Honours,

14     could we please have Exhibit 65 ter number 08234.01 on the screen,

15     please.

16        Q.   Sir, what I want to show you first is a series of photographs of

17     shell casings.  To provide some context for you, these were taken from

18     locations in the areas in and surrounding Srebrenica.

19             The first document we have on the screen, do you recognise what

20     -- the first photograph, do you recognise what we see there?

21        A.   I see a cartridge of 1.62 millimetres bullet.  I see the

22     manufacturer and the year of manufacture.  It's PPU meaning the

23     Prvi Partizan of Uzice, and the year is 1993, that's the year of

24     manufacture.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.

Page 3622

 1             Your Honours, could I just have a brief moment with Mr. Harmon,

 2     sir.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, sir.

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. THOMAS:  I just have an administrative question which

 6     Mr. Registrar might assist with me, Your Honours.  I have four of these

 7     which I would want to tender, the only question is whether it's going to

 8     be simpler do that all at the end or individually one at a time because

 9     they all bear the same 65 ter number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, if I may, this can be all one

11     Exhibit number, all four photos or five.

12             MR. THOMAS:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Can we turn

13     then to page 2.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we turn to page 2, how do we see that

15     is a 1.62 millimetre thing?  I didn't see this 1.62.  Sorry, we have now

16     moved.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a smaller cartridge.  It's

18     probably an automatic rifle, 7.62 millimetres bullet, and the date of

19     manufacture is new.  The other 7.9 millimetre ammunition was not of

20     recent manufacture.  There were quite a lot of stocks or supplies of that

21     particular ammunition, and it was used for machine-guns, M53 which were a

22     bit outdated, so we didn't really use that much of that type of

23     ammunition.  Most ammunition that was used was 7.6.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we could move to page 2.

Page 3623

 1        Q.   Again, sir, can you help us with what we see there?

 2        A.   Same as before, Prvi Partizan of Uzice.  The year of manufacture

 3     is 1994.

 4             MR. THOMAS:  If we could move to page 3, please.

 5        Q.   Again, can you comment on this cartridge?

 6        A.   I can see here that the year of manufacture is 1984 [as

 7     interpreted], from what I can see, and we have the number 10.  It's some

 8     sort of code.  I don't know if this is some kind of foreign manufactured

 9     ammunition or perhaps one of our factories produced it without any marks

10     of the manufacturer, but only used a code, so on the basis of that code

11     you could tell who the manufacturer was.  But from my knowledge of

12     domestically manufactured ammunition from the former Yugoslavia, you

13     would have Igman, Konjic, Prvi Partizan Uzice; these were -- Titova

14     Vogosca, Slavko Rodic, Bugojno, all of these were special purpose

15     industries manufacturing the bullets.  There is no such marking here.  We

16     only see 10 and 1994, so I don't know who the manufacture is.

17             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you.  Your Honour, if we could move to page 4,

18     please.

19        Q.   This is a little difficult to make out.  Can you make out the

20     markings on this casing?  And if you can, tell us what you see.

21        A.   At the top, I can see number 24, that's what it looks like in the

22     upper corner.  At the bottom it's not clear, so I really cannot tell what

23     type it is.  I don't want to speculate.  There is no marking.  All I can

24     see is number 24.  I think that's what it says at the top.

25        Q.   Have you ever encountered --

Page 3624

 1             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar, we don't need that image

 2     on the screen any longer.  I can tender all four documents, Your Honour,

 3     please, as an exhibit.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I object, Your Honours, to tendering

 6     this entire document as evidence.  The witness did not recognise two of

 7     these shells and for two he did provide specific information about the

 8     initials, but not much more about the calibre on the basis of which we

 9     could establish exactly what the Prosecutor is claiming.  I suggest that

10     we just mark this with an MFI number, and then the Prosecutor could try

11     to bring this evidence in through a different witness so that we can then

12     know precisely what it means or what it indicates.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Thomas.

14             MR. THOMAS:  I would accept that my learned friend has a valid

15     objection in relation to the very last document that I showed the

16     witness.  I have no difficulty with page 4 being marked for

17     identification.  But in my submission, he was able to comment

18     sufficiently on the first three for those to be tendered as an exhibit.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness gave the same comment

21     about the third and the fourth document, but I still think that based on

22     what the witness said we don't have a clear interpretation of the calibre

23     in relation to documents 1 and 2.  Other than PPU, and the year of

24     manufacture would indicate a certain factor that it's Prvi Partizan Uzice

25     and that the year of manufacture is 1994.  But we still don't know

Page 3625

 1     exactly which calibre it is, and that poses a problem for me.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, can I suggest to you that whenever you

 3     reply, stay on the point you raised in the first place.  You are now

 4     raising a new point which you hadn't raised in the first time.  In the

 5     first place you were objecting to the last two.  Now you are objecting to

 6     the first two on a different basis.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the interpreters

 8     misunderstood, but my objection applies to the entire document.  I'm

 9     sorry if the interpretation was wrong.  It was a misunderstanding.  I

10     mentioned the same objection that in relation to the first two

11     photographs, you can see certain indications which indicate something,

12     but you still don't know what calibre it is.  On the basis of what the

13     witness said, I think that it is not enough for the Trial Chamber to

14     accept on the basis of that that we are talking about 7.62 millimetre

15     calibre.  I have nothing against him explaining some concepts, but I

16     don't agree that we are talking about 7.62 millimetre calibre here.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But the shell itself doesn't show anything

18     from which one can determine whether it's a 7.62 millimetre, but he has

19     told us everything that he saw on it.  And with respect to one, the first

20     one, he ventured an opinion that it could be a 7.62 millimetre shell

21     because of the size as he saw it, but he has told us everything that he

22     read on that shell.

23             What it is you want from him?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What I understood is that he

25     explained certain terms or certain markings that indicate certain

Page 3626

 1     concepts.  I have no objection to that.  But if this document is to be

 2     used as evidence that it is a 7.62 cartridge that we are talking about,

 3     this is what my objection is about because I believe that on the basis of

 4     what the witness said, we cannot take that as a fact.  If we are talking

 5     about tendering this as evidence to indicate what certain things mean

 6     that are marked on this cartridge, I have no objection to that.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And your objection seems to be going to the weight

 8     to be given to that testimony of the witness relating to the exhibit,

 9     namely, is it a 7.62 shell.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fine.  That has nothing to do with admissibility;

12     it's got to do with weight.  Is that okay?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  The documents are admitted into

15     evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document will be given

17     Exhibit P599.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, are all four pages

20     tendered or only the first two?  Because Mr. Thomas agreed with my

21     objection in reference to the last two pages of the document that the

22     witness did not say anything that has to do with the origin.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you want to say something to that.

24             MR. THOMAS:  It was the last one, sir.  It was my position that

25     he sufficiently commented on 1 to 3, but not on 4.  I have no difficulty

Page 3627

 1     with 4, page 4 being marked for identification and being given a separate

 2     number.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you are not in agreement, Mr. Lukic?  You are

 4     talking of two pages.  Mr. Thomas is talking of one page, page 4 only,

 5     which he agrees with you on.  For the record, are you nodding to say you

 6     agree with him?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The witness explained

 8     about documents 3 and 4.  His explanation was the same that he sees these

 9     numbers, but he doesn't know the origin of the ammunition on the basis of

10     those numbers.  And he gave the same assessment for documents 3 and 4.

11     And that is why my objection is identical.  I don't see why Mr. Thomas

12     would agree with number 4 and not agree with number 3, but I stand by my

13     objection for both documents.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Simply because those two have no writing that

15     indicates origin.  He can't speculate on that.  The first two he could

16     identify them as coming from some particular company because the initials

17     of the company are there.  But with respect to the other two, he read

18     them, read what was there, and told us what he thought of what was there.

19     If the first two didn't have PPU, he would not have been able to tell us

20     they came from PPU.  But he can only interpret what is before him.  He

21     can't then suck an answer from somewhere and say, I suspect it must come

22     from such and such a company.  He can't say that.  So he is -- he has

23     sufficiently interpreted the document before us according to the

24     particulars on the document.  Do you need him to do more than that and

25     venture that speculation?  We can ask him to speculate.

Page 3628

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But then I see the problem now,

 2     Your Honours, how can we then bring or tender this evidence in through

 3     this witness?  I could also read what it says on that document.  I don't

 4     see how this witness can be the one through whom this evidence can be

 5     tendered.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... can tell us

 7     the origin as to those two that you can think of.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I assume some kind of expert.  An

 9     expert of the Prosecution or any other kind of expert.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... on the paper

11     to tell him the origin.  What is he going to see on the picture to tell

12     him the origin of the shells?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I assume that on the basis of the

14     number on the cartridge, he could determine the origin.  This is what I'm

15     thinking.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you saying that the number tells us about the

17     origin?

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I can just speculate.  The number

19     must mean something.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Everybody is going to speculate.  He speculated

21     that the number --

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Precisely.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May be a code for something.  So do you want

24     further speculation?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, I just believe that if the

Page 3629

 1     witness doesn't know anything about the document other than what he read

 2     of the document, he is not an appropriate witness through whom the

 3     document can be tendered.  This is the gist of my objection.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the first two, he also described them

 5     according to what he read on those two.  He offered nothing new in

 6     addition to what he read, and then he read what he read on the other two.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  If we have a witness when he

 8     reads something on the screen but has no interpretation of what is

 9     actually written there cannot be tendered as evidence.  This is a

10     procedural objection on my part.  That's what I believe.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The objection goes to weight, Mr. Lukic.  It goes

12     to weight, doesn't it?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your directions in Rule 21 are, in my

14     opinion, directed at knowing which evidence can be tendered or brought in

15     through which witness.  If we do not stick to those directives, then it

16     can be just a matter of weight, but I think the directions can also

17     indicate the suitability of a witness in order to tender certain

18     documents so that there can be a connection between the type of witness

19     and the type of document that can be tendered.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Can we mark page 3 and 4 for

21     identification, please.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 3 and 4 of the Exhibit P599 will be marked

23     for identification.

24             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             Mr. Registrar, could we please have 65 ter number 07098.06 on the

Page 3630

 1     screen.

 2        Q.   And again, sir, to give you some context this was materiel taken

 3     from Orahovac, an alleged killing site near Srebrenica.  Now, please tell

 4     us if you need this photograph enlarged.  That can be done.  I want you

 5     to look at both the labels on the small white packages and also the

 6     printing on the outside of the wooden crate if that assists.  Again what

 7     we are looking for is any markings which might indicate which facility

 8     manufactured this materiel, what the materiel is, and the year of

 9     manufacture and how you work that out.

10        A.   I just wanted to make a brief comment to the previous question to

11     clarify whom this will be of assistance.

12        Q.   Can we just deal first of all with the picture that is on the

13     screen.

14        A.   Of course.

15             This is a 7.62 millimetre bullet from Prvi Partizan Uzice of

16     1994, series 03-07, and it says that on the crate and we have boxes

17     inside, and they each contain 15 bullets.  If the intention -- if they

18     were intended for automatic rifles.  If they were intended for

19     semi-automatic rifles, then each box contained 30 bullets.  These were

20     manufactured by Prvi Partizan in Uzice.  Ammunition for automatic,

21     semi-automatic, and machine-guns.  7.62 millimetres.

22        Q.   All right.  I just want to take that one step at a time.

23             What is it that tells you that it was -- that it was manufactured

24     at Prvi Partizan?

25        A.   PPU is there meaning Prvi Partizan Uzice, and then we have 94,

Page 3631

 1     meaning manufactured in 1994.  03 indicates the series, and 07 can

 2     perhaps indicate the month.  But in any case, we are talking about 1994

 3     as the year.

 4        Q.   And is there any information on the labels actually attached to

 5     the small white boxes that is of assistance in determining who

 6     manufactured and year of manufacture?  And tell us if you need to zoom in

 7     on those labels.

 8        A.   Yes, could you do that, please.  We have the same thing.  It says

 9     15 pieces, 7.62 millimetres bullets with normal pieces, M67.  And then we

10     have NC-08 gun powder and BL means Milan Blagojevic Lucani, and that is

11     the gun powder manufacturer.  There is also the series of the gun powder,

12     batch 91237, so this was specifically then the pack for automatic rifle.

13     There was no difference in the actual ammunition, only that automatic

14     rifles were loaded with 30 bullets which were in the two boxes, whereas

15     semi-automatic rifles were loaded by using just one of the boxes, but the

16     box contained 30 bullets.  The bullets, as such, are the same.

17        Q.   And you've explained this in the context of the label on the

18     outside of the box, but what is the notation in the bottom left-hand

19     corner of the label?

20        A.   Yes.  PPU means Prvi Partizan Uzice, 9403, manufactured in 1994.

21     03 is the number of the series.

22        Q.   And what is a series?  What is that a reference to?

23        A.   Ammunition was manufactured in a number of series, the same type

24     of gun powder, for example, was used, and then you would use one series

25     with one type of gun powder.  So one series would be produced with one

Page 3632

 1     particular type of gun powder, another series could be made with either

 2     different or the same type of gun powder.  It could be stable or

 3     volatile, and all the gun powder was kept in the Nikinci depot.  If a

 4     batch of gun powder came that was suspected of not being volatile, then

 5     that batch would be returned to the depot.

 6        Q.   And where is Nikinci?

 7        A.   In Serbia.

 8             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours, if that photograph could

 9     please be tendered as an exhibit.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no objection to the testimony

12     or the to tendering of this document.  The only thing I would like to do

13     is that Mr. Thomas would need to present evidence on the actual location

14     of the bullets, where they were held.  Just the fact that this witness

15     has stated that is not something that would be acceptable as evidence, so

16     we are hoping that Mr. Thomas would lead evidence on the place where the

17     ammunition was stored.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very well.  I don't know whether Mr. Thomas is

19     going to do that, but you have no objection to the admission.  The

20     document is admitted into evidence.  May it please be given an exhibit

21     number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

23     Exhibit P600.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Mr. Registrar.

Page 3633

 1        Q.   Sir, have you also become familiar with markings on artillery

 2     pieces and artillery components?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Again, simply to provide you with context, the foundation will be

 5     led later through another witness.  In respect of shell markings located

 6     in Sarajevo which bore references such as KB9307, and I'm talking in

 7     particular about components coming from 120-millimetre mortar shells, do

 8     you have any comment to make on the meaning of the marking KB9307?

 9        A.   KB or KV?  If this is in Cyrillic then it should read KV.  And I

10     think that's what it is.  I think this is Cyrillic transcription.  The B

11     in the Latin script is the same as V in the Cyrillic script, and I think

12     this is an indication for Valjevo.

13        Q.   Firstly, let me clarify.  Yes, it would be a translation of a

14     Cyrillic letters.  Given that, can you tell us what they mean.

15        A.   This means KV, Krusik Valjevo.  What number did you say?

16        Q.   As an example, 9307.

17        A.   That would mean produced in 1993 in July, the seventh month, that

18     series, that batch.  In any case, the first two digits would indicate the

19     year of production.

20        Q.   So, for example, KB9402 would be?

21        A.   I don't know what KB would be, but I said what KV means.

22        Q.   So KV9402, for example, would be?

23        A.   Again, it would be Krusik Valjevo, produced in 1994, series or

24     month, February.  But what is really relevant is the first two digits,

25     the year of production.  The other numbers are not that important, what

Page 3634

 1     batch of gun powder it is or ...  so this is really for experts.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, during the course of your testimony, you've

 3     referred on a couple of occasions to Pretis Vogosca.  Now, what was

 4     Pretis?

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18                           [Closed session]

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Page 3636











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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Can we get assistance with the

16     curtains.  Thank you so much.

17             The matter stands adjourned to tomorrow at quarter past 2.00,

18     Courtroom I.  Court adjourned.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.49 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

21                           February 2009, at 2.15 p.m.